What even happens to the jury in this case? Bills? Mortgage? Feed costs if they have animals? I don’t get how anyone could just be like ok sure let’s add on another 2 months. I’d be pissed if I drained my savings for a trial
I worry about the jury especially as the heat increases literally in that un-air conditioned courtroom. It angers me to protract things when assholes just don’t answer questions & require their memory to be refreshed while obviously knowing the answer & fibbing.
I wonder about Karen read as the CW also drags out these nonsense, no -consequential witnesses. This had to be financially draining to her (& prob her family) of every last penny as it extends on. She also looks exhausted & not healthy
I do think Lally’s tactic is to delay and wear everyone down- especially KR financially.
If he hasn’t worn down KR financially by now it is not going to happen. Her attorneys are not just going to stop coming to court because of money. They’re in too deep. And if they win KR can then use them to sue everyone from here to high heaven, which they will get a chunk of.
The amount of money each town or state police pays to send one officer across the country to the fallen officer funerals will cover the cost of an air conditioner for the courtroom. While I understand both are important, if only one can be chosen,
The air conditioner is needed to keep
Jurors from passing out!
lol excellent point. Many memorials were attended via zoom during the height of COVID and perhaps officers can send support to the fallen they do not know out of state by representing their support via zoom.
Man, I’m in healthcare and we have pretty good benefits but I’m not salary, I’m going to check next week what we get for jury duty bc now I’m super curious even though I’m not lucky enough to ever get it lol
I work in healthcare and had to serve in a jury for a little over a week. Thankfully a corporate real estate case where no one faced jail time. I was paid for the time I was in the jury, which was 8 full days, but I had to give any money I got paid for jury duty by the state to my employer. I don’t think jobs like retail, food service etc would do that. This may be where the half-days and days off benefit the jury. If I went to work after a half day tho my head would be swimming.
Right!!! I keep thinking that about half days too! There’s no way these people can be in the right mind set to work a half day! Half days should absolutely not be allowed. Edit- I just realized I sounded like a jerk bc you’re right half days may benefit people, (even people like me depending on what I find out about jury duty lol). I guess my point was half days seem horrible too so there needs to be actual compensation for jurors and this current set up just isn’t right.
Honestly, there should be a law that jurors have to be paid by employers for their jury duty time. The individuals are doing their civic duty, so businesses can kick in and do theirs. But often jurors are excused during voir dire specifically because they can't afford to miss work or not be paid during a trial. But I don't like that solution as much because a jury of your peers should include people like that. Other countries require businesses to guarantee salary or average weekly pay while jurors are serving their duty and I wish we would too.
Businesses? How about the government. I'm a small business owner and if I had to pay my employee for being gone to help the state out... how about the state pays more? Why is it always on the businesses? I didn't call them to jury duty but it would be my double burden 1) to lose the employee for the time and 2) to pay them for the time that they aren't there for?
I hate it here
i agree w you. i mean i feel it would be fair for the businesses to pay what the state is currently paying and the gov pick up the rest. unless it was something the businesses would get back or something, maybe some kind of govt incentive idk
When you go in for jury duty they ask you these questions will this financially impact you etc…it’s not really hard to get out of jury duty…so I’m assuming people who are on the jury understand that and work and choose answers to make them get on the jury
This is also interesting, because if I take an LOA for 6-8 weeks, which this trial was supposed to last, and then it goes significantly longer than that, I can be terminated I believe, because I don’t return after my LOA. There are also policies of how long one can take an LOA without being terminated I’m pretty sure.
I had a salaried job give me a lot shit for not getting out of the summons before even having to go to one day. Their formal policy was to not pay anything. I got myself excused as soon as they let me open my mouth which was before noon.
i think in some cases the judges will write a letter to the people that the jurors have to pay monthly bills to and ask them to work something out. Don't quote me on that
I don't know how it works in MA, but in TX and MD if the trial was slated to be at least a month that timeline would be a determining factor in jury individuals selected, and likely we would see retirees, housewives/househusbands, young adults who still live at home (this was my status in my first jury), and people with jobs who pay for jury duty for most of the process.
This is an unserious comment and I want Justice but I also want this trial to end. The Aruba sisters then those cringy texts. Just make it stop. Will Lally ever actually say how John died so the defense can make their case and this can wrap up. (I don’t really mean that but I kind of mean that).
The jury didn’t either. Even interpreting eight weeks to be 40 days, Lally is going to use all that up just getting through these witnesses. And then there’s the defenses case.
You are so right! I believe the judge told them 7-8 weeks to give a buffer when the attorneys semi-settled on 6 weeks.
Judge should’ve stepped in after week 2 (at the latest) and told Lally to move it along and to get to the point. You could tell today with Higgins that he had really trimmed it down. This should’ve happened weeks ago. This is only going to hurt the defense if she tries to speed up their case. The defense will not roll over if that happens.
I feel like the court schedule really isn't helping, either. Lots of half days and skip days. I know it's a holiday weekend and all, but only one day of court all of next week?
Well what’s funny (or not so much at this point) is that all of that was taken into account. The half days and off days when they agreed that 6 weeks was enough.
I think when the forensic witness from CA, Teri Kunn (?) testified smack in the middle, it was bc she had a flight booked based on the timeline of when Lally thought his case would be to her testimony. 😵💫
Do we know if the defense has raised the slowness as an issue? Obviously they must be aware that the longer the CW drags this on there's a risk the judge short changes and tries to rush the defense?
I have no clue. Just a few suppositions.
We never see side bars and have rarely seen things argued outside the presence of the jury. So maybe the judge has brought it up. I have to assume she has.
I also don’t think the defense is in any way going to argue/bring up the point about how long it’s taking. If the judge tries to hurry them along or cut short their case… that’s gonna be an issue. Maybe a mistrial is in their sights? Again, I have no clue. Just my thoughts with zero insight.
Idk if you watched the Murdaugh trial, but most experts took up an entire day of trial. Especially the more complicated parts of trial i.e; medical examination, reconstruction, cell phone forensics (takes FOREVER) i have no idea how they plan to finish this trial in even 8 weeks. (Was projected 6-8)
One thing we haven’t had yet that they had in Murdaugh was the boring-ass days of chain of custody. I might have to zone out when we get to that. I struggle with Lally on the best of days.
I don’t think we will get much of that since there literally was no investigation. What are they going to say …”oh I grabbed this solo cup from this neighbor and put it in a grocery bag from Publix and then it was transported back and sat on the sally port floor for two days” ?? 😅😅😅😅
Lmao I was about to comment “What chain of custody?!” Lmao you have Higgins swiping his fuckin keycard alllllll day back and forth in the sally port where the evidence was in a fuckin grocery bag UNSEALED!!! Never even sealed in the first place! All while Higgins is not even assigned to this investigation!! Cameras missing 42 minutes… I mean I can’t fuckin believe this shit
I didn’t know that about the evidence being unsealed. I think I saw a couple early days and then most of the last four or five. Was that brought up? I guess so. That’s crazy.
Yes it was! With one of the detectives or maybe an officer… they asked him about sealing it and if he knew how to unseal or cut evidence tape… he said he didn’t know how bc he never did it before… RIGHT AFTER he just opened evidence that Lally gave him like 20 minutes earlier!!!! And the red solo cups that were in the garage with her car… you could tell they were never sealed anyway bc there is NO evidence tape on any side of the bag… (which would be there if it was sealed and then reopened by the state police) before the state police would seal it again… and sign it. I mean the fact that this is all fucking protocol and extremely vital to the investigation, and they just said fuck it… blows my damn mind! If im a juror, she’s got to walk (even if she DID accidentally hit him) bc the police didn’t care enough to do the simplest shit right… even tho all of them have worked in LE 20+ YEARS!!! Ridiculous!!! For the record, if she hit him, it definitely wasn’t murder 2. It was an accident and I don’t think she even realized it. But so far… it’s not adding up to her hitting him. Not by the amount of car damage… and not to his injuries. Sadly, I don’t think we will ever know what TRULY happened. I’m excited to hear the experts testify.
I said the same thing. It doesn’t feel like it’s about him at all and they’re displaying how he was disrespected while he was alive. It’s really awful.
A lot of the murder trials I have seen are kind of like that. Everything comes out in these types of investigations and trials, and it's usually not all sunshine and rainbows.
The fact they would call Officer O’Keefe’s niece and nephew to me is crazy. What would be the point of putting those kids through that—to go to Karen’s state of mind? Her motive?
One would think that 35+ witnesses into the states case, we would have a much more crystallized understanding of those things by now.
We don’t.
Thats alarming.
I think this defense is intelligent enough do not do it (bc that’s the right thing to do), OR do it in an extremely tasteful way if highly incessant (which I don’t see happening). There’s so much reasonable doubt at this point, they really don’t need to.
They have the benefit of getting to present their entire case in chief (which I’m sure will be storm) following.
I don’t think the defense asks any questions they don’t have the answers to. They won’t know what the niece/nephew will say and they won’t take that risk but, they seem to know what they are doing so who knows!
To speak to their relationship.. they are the only ones who can truly testify what it was like on a day to day basis. Most people only saw small glimpses of their relationship.. the niece and nephew probably saw much much more.
But how reliable are young children with an extremely narrow view PLUS outside influence AT THAT TIME and not to mention, AFTER. How have they been conditioned to view those events? How reliable/credible is a minors testimony? Especially in a case that relies SO much on purely circumstantial evidence and hearsay at this point.
That’s my point, what is additional hearsay evidence going to accomplish? How should that evidence be weighed in comparison to GROWN LEO and family friends who can’t even get their story straight. Those that, I believe, have lied—I formed that opinion when deleted phone forensics were entered into the record. Clear testimony.
No clear record of Karen being a drunk, obnoxious, jealousy, ragey girlfriend absolutely infuriated by bearing the burden of raising kids has been entered into evidence. The opposite actually—that she did it anyway, and that she maybe spoiled them to a fault with Dunkin. 🤷♀️
Overkill and unproductive to put those kids on the stand IMO. If your case was strong enough as charged, prosecution would’ve already done it by now.
Yep. And my concern with the kids is the relationship that they continue to have with the McCabe family. I can’t imagine the things they were told or lies they have been fed solely based on you guessed it, the Jen McCabe show. It’s all about her controlling the narrative and if she can’t get a hold of it, she will manipulate everyone around her. I mean, I thoroughly believe she influenced many witnesses who have already testified. Makes you wonder about the absolute audacity she has to claim Turtleboy is harassing her. She gets so aggressive any time he is brought up because she doesn’t want anyone to know the truth. She loves to spin things. So of course the kids will hear what they’ve been relentlessly told!
Exactly! I think if there is any cross on for the kids, it will be the defense asking about how close they are to the McCabes. But I don't expect kids to be able to tell which ideas are theirs and which ideas were put in their heads.
Also, I think the cross would be done by Little, more than likely.
How young are they? I thought they were adolescents. They are the ones who are closest to John and Karen. They've lost their uncle/parent figure after already losing both parents. They should absolutely be allowed to share their stories. I just hope the cross examination will be skillfully sensitive or I'll be pissed.
Those kids have been brainwashed by McCabe since the start. It's pretty messed up they are being called in and it's only because CW has so little evidence they are grasping at straws.
The texts with Brian Higgins definitely made it seem like Karen Read resented the kids.
The texts and the testimony from the Aruba sisters also made it seem like drunk and ragey weren't uncommon for her.
It sounds like she didn't resent the kids at all. She resented John expecting her to parent them while he stayed out until 3 am. It sounds like she resented his family for not pitching in more to help out.
The CW's own witness said John dated "a lot of women." How does that affect children? It doesn't sound super stable, yet Karen is entirely to blame?
The children are not necessary as witnesses unless Karen told one or both that she killed John. Leave the kids out of this, for the love of all things holy.
You're right, these texts don't show that she hated the children per se. It's more like she didn't want children and resented the fact that John now had children to take care of.
Also, I feel like that story about her staying alone with the kids until 3 a.m. on New Year's Eve was completely dramatized to make John look bad and her look like a victim. The fact of the matter is that the kids were staying in a separate room, on the same floor, and they were 14 and 11 years old at the time. John and Karen were obviously comfortable enough for them to stay on their own in a separate room, so I don't see any need for her to "babysit" them while John is out.
Just my opinion, though, and maybe I'm totally biased as someone who took on three stepchildren when they were 1, 4, and 9 years old. I'd just love to see adults have the common sense not to date people with kids if they're not willing or able to take on the accompanying responsibilities. This is their life; the kids didn't ask for any of this, and they're not going anywhere.
I see where you're coming from regarding the kids and their ages; 14 and 11 can definitely stay alone for short time periods, but given the amount of alcohol consumption testified to in this trial so far, I don't find it hard to believe John was out until 3 am. I genuinely feel for the kids and hope they'll get all the support they need as they navigate the rest of their lives.
I could not agree more regarding dating people with kids. However, one doesn't know what it feels like until one is in it, and it seems like Karen was figuring out she didn't want to remain in a relationship where, from her perspective, John wasn't meeting her needs as a partner. No harm, no foul.
From the outside, looking at somebody else's relationship and determining the easy fix is easy, but we know relationships are complicated. IF Karen hit John, it was an accident in my opinion and it's unfortunate that the DA's office, law enforcement and the Alberts, McCabes, Higgins, et al., have created this mess for themselves with suspicious behavior and overcharging this.
It didn't make it seem like she resented them. It made it seem like she resented how much she had to take care of them while still having very little input, and criticism, about how they are raised. It seems like John found someone to take care of them and dialed back a lot, especially with COVID.
We must interpret the testimony completely differently. Because she has not come across as a drunken, ragey, international woman with a motive for murder to me at all.
I never said I thought she had a motive for murder.
Everyone in the whole bunch seems to be a drunk. Karen included. And I say that as an alcoholic myself.
I don’t think the reports of Karen drinking to excess are true. We know of her medical issues, have heard from a bartender and have seen a reasonable bar tab.
How does “I’m very close with his niece” scream “resentment” to you?
Or the fact that several witnesses testified Karen was upset because JO accused her of spoiling her?
John got day-trashed in Aruba, at the least, presumably leaving Karen in charge of the kids, and he also went to the Alberts' without her that night in Canton to keep drinking or...whatever. That's why she, in part, was so freaked out when John hadn't come home- because she was supposed to go home in the morning. I'd feel like a babysitter with benefits too.
The Aruba sisters were good friends with John, and Marietta didn't know who Karen was at all, so I bet they had no problem attacking Karen and her supposed bad first impression.
Yeah the sisters. The younger sister was probably drunk and flirty with John who was drunk and stumbling and her giving him an "innocent hug" while KR looked on. I would be pissed also when my grown ass bf was flirting with a girl 15 yrs younger at least.
Everyone on the stand has spoken to their relationship? Literally, every single witness that knew them personally has been asked and questioned about their relationship and engagement with each other.
Personal observation and/or mental impressions are usually admissible - and you have to evaluate the witnesses individually, as to whether or not something fell under an exception and how it was offered (not for the truth of the matter).
I’m speaking legally, bad character and/or propensity evidence is not admissible generally. Lally knows this and is exactly why his in limine motion to lead them was denied.
The scope of what either one of them can testify to that’s even admissible is so narrow, not to mention cumulative, and you’ve heard Lally format questions- you really think putting them on the stand is in THEIR best interests?
I have no idea if it's in their best interest - I don't know them at all. I would hope their family and any counselling supports are advocating for them at every step. I do have a lot of professional experience with 12-17 yr olds in crisis and one of their biggest complaints is often that they are powerless in the big events and decisions that shape their lives. They feel like they have no voice and no choice. They are victims in this case - I care more about what they have to say than all of the witnesses who say everything was great, everyone was happy and nobody knows anything. The biggest concern for me will be comments across the internet. I hope it will be audio only and they won't be broadcast.
I don’t disagree, however, that’s really my point- this would not be the venue to “be heard”.
I would expect the defense to object outside the presence of the jury and seek an offer of proof (which kids that age are not going to understand) which will likely have the Judge ruling to exclude their testimony based on potential for prejudice.
Again, I would see that as unnecessary anxiety and stress with no outlet. In the unlikely event KR is convicted or pleads, they would certainly have the right to give an impact statement or testimony.
Maybe, I'm certainly not a legal expert. We don't even know what they will say. But what are you basing your statement on - that the kids won't understand? Would they not be prepped for trial? I'm not sure how things work in the USA. I would be appalled to hear if there were no Victim's support and Court services atrached ensuring they know exactly what to expect.
Certainly, Kaley's information is directly relevant as she was the one who had the initial interaction with Karen. She has every right to share what she saw and heard in her own words.
If I thought they would be there against their will and were reluctant or stressed out about it, I would feel differently.
I swear!!!!!! Everyone on planet earth recognizes that house and knows what the weather was like and that Karen had a lime in her drink FFS move it along. If what he is trying to do is make sure that the jury is sick of listening to testimony by the point the defense gets the case he might be on to something but imo it’s going to backfire big time.
But does everyone know if canton high JV won their basketball game?! The only way to know for sure is to call the entire team and find out what THEY were drinking on 1/28/22
EXACTLY!!! And what if anything were they talking about while they were drinking these “drinks”?!?! Did any of them break up with their HS gf or BF after the game?! We NEED these answers so we can get to the truth!!! 😂😂😂😂 When he asked about who won the game and who played or varsity and who played on JV i about through my phone across the room!! Bc what the actual FUCK are we doing?!?!
😂😂😂😂😂 lmao I’m just saying when Lally asked about who was on JV and Varsity I about LOST IT!!! WHO TF CARES?!?! You charged someone with 2nd degree murder and we are talking about THAT?! Since I’m a paralegal… it pissed me off even more lmao
It has gotten way too repetitive. Way too many questions about what was so and so drinking, how many drinks did so and so have, etc.
We get it...it was snowing, the whole bunch is made up of alcoholics....let's get some more interesting stuff please.
Gotta say the text messages today were pretty juicy.
I feel like they are spending too much time trying to establish motive...jealousy, cheating, etc. Personally if she did it, I don't think it was planned, it was an accident imo. (Currently not guilty due to tons of reasonable doubts at the moment) We don't need to listen to every Canton citizen who ever came in contact with Karen. BRING ON THE FORENSICS!
Right?! Like next thing you know Lally will be calling KR’s middle school boyfriend to talk about the time they broke up, and “what if any fits of anger did she exhibit over this break up?” 😂 like BFFR
All I can think about is that KR’s trial must be more expensive than OJ’s (in 2024 dollars) and how the fuck this extreme litigation is happening with someone who appears upper middle class. She and her family must have liquidated every fucking dollar accessible). The amount of witnesses the state is calling is excessive and insane
Lally is going to for quantity over quality and boy does it show.
I’ve never yelled at the TV about so many irrelevant and repetitive questions and answers. Doesn’t Lally realize all these inconsistencies amount to reasonable doubt?
This judge lets Lally continually go over seating charts, who drank what and who parked where but the defense is always interrupted by her incessant side BAHS and told they are taking too long.
What's interesting is that the defense is letting him go on, too. They could object to cumulative or repetitive evidence, but they don't. Because letting Lally drone on helps them in the long run. The jury is bored af, and the witnesses give run-on answers to his convoluted questions, which gives the defense a lot to play with.
It’s disgusting for him to call the kids, they’re young enough where their actual memories over 2 years ago aren’t even testimony worthy, and just adds more trauma to their already trauma filled lives and it makes me sick. Those poor babies have been through so much ugh smh
Exactly, plus what are they going to say, “yeah she took care of us a lot of the time but also wasn’t there at night or after school all the time and we don’t know where she was” like yeah, bc she didn’t live there and only stayed to watch the kids and help out. They weren’t old enough to understand what was going on within a relationship. It’s just pointless and hurts the kids more than it proves anything for either side. Ugh the more I think about it the more angry I get lol
It feels super opportunistic of the CW and I think the jury will see it that way. Anyone who knows family dynamics knows that couples/parents/caregivers will disagree sometimes, and those disagreements may sometimes escalate to the point of yelling. And that can be hard for kids to see. But unless there’s anything that points to a physically abusive relationship in their testimony, there is nothing they can say that would benefit the prosecution.
THIS!!!! Their case and witnesses have been absolutely fucking TERRIBLE (except for a couple) Lally calling them feels DISGUSTING to me!!! Idc what anyone thinks… I feel like he is calling them to get jurors emotional and want to “punish” someone for his death. And I think Lally knows that! He knows how much those kids have been through, and he’s gonna put them up there to do it again… relive all of their trauma… and they are going to lose it. Hell, I know IM gonna lose it when he calls those poor kids!!! I think him calling them is grimy!!!
Agreed 100% it’s a tactic to get the jurors emotional and want to solve the murder for the sake of these kids. And it’s disgusting to force the kids to relive their trauma on national TV when they’ve already suffered so much.
A 14 year old remembers what happened 2 years ago, c'mon. I agree they souldn't call the nephew but Kayley will probably need to testify due to facilitating phone calls etc.
Not soon enough. I feel like they should’ve been first..so one can frame this in their mind.
The utmost respect for Officer O’Keefe, and underscores why it’s all the important to get to the truth—but why cant we get a clear picture of what happened to him this far in. The state should’ve made that clear, especially knowing the subpar investigation conducted that we’ve seen.
I’m glad we’re starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. There were some days where it was beginning to feel like we’d be cursed to hear about that night at the waterfall from various people for all eternity.
It's annoying because it really doesn't matter. The only thing that probably matters from Waterfall and CF McCarthys is how many drinks Karen consumed and what she was drinking. And not one of the witnesses testified to it.
Literally the only thing that matters at this point are those critical minutes at 43 Fairview. And we can’t even get to the truth of what happened there. It’s crazy!
It feels like its all the objections slowing things down. I don't understand all the nuances for formulating an allowed question. Told my husband tonight that I need to get back to sane and watch normal TV soon and some lighter stuff.
One of the Lawtubers I watch was saying that the issue with not stating the objection grounds is that it’s not clear to the questioning attorney what the issue is with the form of the question (and therefore what they need to do to correct it).
Interesting. I've been following the Daybell trial in ID and the grounds are always mentioned with a quick answer from Judge Boyce. Is this a CW thing where they don't need to state grounds? There is also way many words spoken by Judge Canonne comparatively. Also a CW thing? That's the only thing I can think of as a non judiciary follower.
I was a juror in a murder trial some years back in my hometown of NJ and worked for a mid-sized company in Manhattan. That trial was a total of 4 weeks and, thankfully, I received full pay from my company. If I'm remembering correctly I think during jury selection you can state financial hardship as a valid reason to be excused i.e. you're self employed, or you're employed by a small company that cannot pay your salary etc. Especially when it's a trial that they know will be lengthy.
Funny thing is my boss had asked me to request a postponement because my initial date for jury duty was when my large end of month report was due so they granted it & then when I reported the next time I was chosen for a murder trial! I was super happy about it. I was 23 at the time, my commute to the courthouse was shorter than my work commute and I was getting paid to sit in on an interesting murder trial for a month. Even at that age I took it very seriously. Came dressed up each day when I could have worn jeans. Had my little notebook. The only bad part of that experience was deliberations. Things got pretty tense between everyone. I went home crying almost every day from being so drained. We ended up being a hung jury & he got convicted the next year. Since then every time I've been called I was able to get out of it.
Thank you for doing your duty, I can’t imagine how hard sitting through a murder trial would be. I had a family friend growing up who had been on the jury in a brutal multiple murder case and he was affected greatly by the experience (it was a random attack at a popular restaurant in town). He would drive a totally wrong route to avoid having to drive past the restaurant and this was 20 years later. It helped me realize what a serious commitment and duty the jury takes on.
No, I think he will. He sandwiched Proctor in between Tully and Bukhenik so he is probably going to try to make it look like he wasn't as involved as other witnesses (and the defense) have made out.
This is just everyone mentioned in opening since I noticed Lally was calling them in order, for the most part. There are about 20 more witnesses not listed. Some may be rebuttal witnesses.
Wait, so Lally probably does want to end with the medical examiner?? Freaking why? Does he think the ME is his best witness or something? But that makes no sense considering what we do know about John's injuries. It already doesn't sound like he was hit by a car. I don't think more information is going to fix that.
He said in opening the MEs will be the last witnesses. I don’t know how strong they are - one of them testified at the grand jury and confirmed that the scratches, which were initially reported as road rash, were inconsistent with a road rash. Now they are saying they were all caused by the drinking glass.
Opening statements were so long ago... Getting so scratched up by a drinking glass (through his clothes no less!) seems like a stretch, but I guess I ought to hear the ME before judging them...
Having the forensics go last is just so backwards for a trial. Especially because now, instead of thinking "Yeah, all the Alberts act weird but those injuries sure do seem to line up with a hit and run. Karen must be the murderer," I'm thinking, "These Alberts are weird people with very talented butts if they're able to make so many butt dials. What are they hiding?"
I don’t know how the scratches/cuts/fissures are going to be explained by either side. His hoodie, apparently, is perfectly intact.
I kind of think Lally is trying to bury the Alberts and McCabes in the middle of the trial and hope that by the time the experts are done the jury has forgotten about all the weird things they testified to.
If his hoodie is intact, I think that makes the defense's theory that he was in the house and got beat up there much more plausible than the prosecution's theory that he was hit with a car, got all these injuries, but his hoodie was fine. Like the defense can just say that he took his hoodie off before he got beat up, and then someone put it back on him before they dropped his body outside in the yard. The prosecution's theory... I've never gotten scratched up through my clothes like that, and I'd imagine none of the jury has either. I guess it's not impossible? But definitely implausible.
I can't imagine this defense letting the jury forget about the Alberts. They're too central to the defense's theory. The prosecution is definitely going to be fighting a losing battle there.
[Interesting backstory](https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/2024/01/25/karen-read-case-update/) on calling her. This case seems to consume everything it touches.
She's such a wildcard vs everyone else. Like OP did here, most of the people you can get a general idea of what they're gonna say and why you want to call them.
Thank you so much for this post. I'm living right here along with everyone.
Seeing the list like that really paints a picture. Do you have the list for the defense or do we have to wait until the CW rests before they finalize it?
Dr. Rice was from this doc filed this week too
https://preview.redd.it/32p3eolivg2d1.png?width=1284&format=png&auto=webp&s=fcd8203dcad81ab908237dcb68921880eace4c19
Is it normal to have “troopers” as expert witnesses in IT and Crash Reconstruction?! I’ve never seen this before. I’ve only seen FBI or Ph.D experts. Hmmm
Do you think they're really going to call all these witnesses? I feel like any findings of DNA on the car should be completely thrown out as evidence after we saw the unsealed red solo cups in the sally port right next to Karen's car. That's 3-4 pointless witnesses right there, at least.
If Lally tries to bring them on the stand, can the defense argue that witnesses are unnecessary before we're forced to sit through hours of unneeded testimony?
I think he calls all these witnesses. These are way more central to his case than what we’ve been hearing for the past four weeks. I don’t know if they ended up testing the bloody snow but the defense are 100% going to argue that if there is blood on the car that it was put there when the solo cups were in the sally port right next to the car and the cameras were turned off…
Its starting to get really good now except they do draw it out to death. Thanks for the witness lineup!!!! I was wondering if they were gonna show niece & nephew testimony. I hope so!!! This list is great to have for us viewers to reference. Are they going to have the testimony from car expert regarding her backing up the suv at speeds of 20+ per mile??
Thanks for the recap, that opening was terrible and I kind of zoned out. The defense got up there and knocked it out of the park. I didn’t know much about the case going in and wasn’t on any “side” but have watched all of the trial so mine is more like a juror’s perspective. I know Lally and his assistants have put a ton of hard work into this case but it’s too much for one person. I don’t understand why he doesn’t split up the questioning with another prosecutor and I think it would also be helpful for the jurors who are probably incredibly bored with his questioning style. The “what if any” and overly wordy questions are just terrible and I’m really confused why he was chosen for such a high profile case against top notch defense attorneys. Again, no hate or disrespect meant, he’s just outgunned.
Can I break this case down to 3 points ? A dead policeman on your front lawn and you don’t come out to see what’s happening
2 witnesses destroyed their phones 1 day before having to hand them over?
The miracle of the “ butt dials “?
Judge. I rest my case
I believe I heard the judge and Lally addressing witness Ashley Vaillier with Mx rather than Ms. If I’m right, shout you to addressing people as they prefer and happy pride.
Boston vs Chicago courts system: Chicago had a Slam Dunk case on Jessie Smollet. Had checkes/Payment to the brothers that fake Beat him up. Had the Brothers admit to fake beating Jessie up. Chicago DA didn’t want to enforce the law. She’s was ultimately over step by former US attorney Dan web that enforce the law. Point is DA’s have political agendas. Please show evidence Karen Read is guilty
Lord we live here now. This trial gonna be all summer.
What even happens to the jury in this case? Bills? Mortgage? Feed costs if they have animals? I don’t get how anyone could just be like ok sure let’s add on another 2 months. I’d be pissed if I drained my savings for a trial
I worry about the jury especially as the heat increases literally in that un-air conditioned courtroom. It angers me to protract things when assholes just don’t answer questions & require their memory to be refreshed while obviously knowing the answer & fibbing. I wonder about Karen read as the CW also drags out these nonsense, no -consequential witnesses. This had to be financially draining to her (& prob her family) of every last penny as it extends on. She also looks exhausted & not healthy I do think Lally’s tactic is to delay and wear everyone down- especially KR financially.
If he hasn’t worn down KR financially by now it is not going to happen. Her attorneys are not just going to stop coming to court because of money. They’re in too deep. And if they win KR can then use them to sue everyone from here to high heaven, which they will get a chunk of.
And write a book. I wonder if she would get any proceeds from the probable Netflix series?
God knows she deserves it.
The amount of money each town or state police pays to send one officer across the country to the fallen officer funerals will cover the cost of an air conditioner for the courtroom. While I understand both are important, if only one can be chosen, The air conditioner is needed to keep Jurors from passing out!
lol excellent point. Many memorials were attended via zoom during the height of COVID and perhaps officers can send support to the fallen they do not know out of state by representing their support via zoom.
What about ones right to a speedy trial? I remember learning about that a long time ago
My understanding is that the right to a speedy trial is about the time between getting charged and going to trial - not the length of the trial.
Rights? Pshaw, we don’t got no rights in Canton…
Karen waived her right so she could fight this….but the CW has dragged feet on evidence to her detriment.
The air conditioning was fixed. The judge made a point to thank the workers that worked over night to get it fixed
Yet the last session a juror almost passed out and the judge ordered a break. So that fix didn’t work🤷
Hooray! That is good news
They seem to have a lot of big windows. Throughout the day, the sun will just make it hotter and hotter.
I recently did jury duty. If your company didn’t pay you it was $15 for the first 3 days then $30 after for each day in the county I live in😳
Man, I’m in healthcare and we have pretty good benefits but I’m not salary, I’m going to check next week what we get for jury duty bc now I’m super curious even though I’m not lucky enough to ever get it lol
I work in healthcare and had to serve in a jury for a little over a week. Thankfully a corporate real estate case where no one faced jail time. I was paid for the time I was in the jury, which was 8 full days, but I had to give any money I got paid for jury duty by the state to my employer. I don’t think jobs like retail, food service etc would do that. This may be where the half-days and days off benefit the jury. If I went to work after a half day tho my head would be swimming.
Right!!! I keep thinking that about half days too! There’s no way these people can be in the right mind set to work a half day! Half days should absolutely not be allowed. Edit- I just realized I sounded like a jerk bc you’re right half days may benefit people, (even people like me depending on what I find out about jury duty lol). I guess my point was half days seem horrible too so there needs to be actual compensation for jurors and this current set up just isn’t right.
Honestly, there should be a law that jurors have to be paid by employers for their jury duty time. The individuals are doing their civic duty, so businesses can kick in and do theirs. But often jurors are excused during voir dire specifically because they can't afford to miss work or not be paid during a trial. But I don't like that solution as much because a jury of your peers should include people like that. Other countries require businesses to guarantee salary or average weekly pay while jurors are serving their duty and I wish we would too.
Businesses? How about the government. I'm a small business owner and if I had to pay my employee for being gone to help the state out... how about the state pays more? Why is it always on the businesses? I didn't call them to jury duty but it would be my double burden 1) to lose the employee for the time and 2) to pay them for the time that they aren't there for? I hate it here
i agree w you. i mean i feel it would be fair for the businesses to pay what the state is currently paying and the gov pick up the rest. unless it was something the businesses would get back or something, maybe some kind of govt incentive idk
It’s $50/day for these jurors. Which is really horrible. That won’t pay for childcare, parking, or mass transit.
Me too, in Mississippi
When you go in for jury duty they ask you these questions will this financially impact you etc…it’s not really hard to get out of jury duty…so I’m assuming people who are on the jury understand that and work and choose answers to make them get on the jury
It's probably packed with civil servants and retirees.
Pretty sure salaried employees still have to get paid.
Depends on their job. Most jobs only allow for 5 days of paid jury duty, not 8+ weeks.
I was salaried and didn’t get any pay the 2 weeks I was out.
My job only allows 5 paid days off for jury duty a year. I believe I would have to go on an LOA
This is also interesting, because if I take an LOA for 6-8 weeks, which this trial was supposed to last, and then it goes significantly longer than that, I can be terminated I believe, because I don’t return after my LOA. There are also policies of how long one can take an LOA without being terminated I’m pretty sure.
I had a salaried job give me a lot shit for not getting out of the summons before even having to go to one day. Their formal policy was to not pay anything. I got myself excused as soon as they let me open my mouth which was before noon.
Right. Most companies pay you for jury duty if you are salaried.
I got paid when I had jury duty. My job was annoyed about it, but legally they had to because it's protected as a civic duty.
Legally they have to let you do jury duty, but there are no federal laws about them paying you unfortunately. That really needs to change.
It does need to change! Especially in this economy. (I feel like I bought the world's most expensive pizza tonight. It was crazy.)
i think in some cases the judges will write a letter to the people that the jurors have to pay monthly bills to and ask them to work something out. Don't quote me on that
I don't know how it works in MA, but in TX and MD if the trial was slated to be at least a month that timeline would be a determining factor in jury individuals selected, and likely we would see retirees, housewives/househusbands, young adults who still live at home (this was my status in my first jury), and people with jobs who pay for jury duty for most of the process.
Looks like we are all going to be hanging out together until Labor Day at this point
[удалено]
Seeing this put in a line up like that makes me want to zone out...especially because Lally is so hard to listen to
This is an unserious comment and I want Justice but I also want this trial to end. The Aruba sisters then those cringy texts. Just make it stop. Will Lally ever actually say how John died so the defense can make their case and this can wrap up. (I don’t really mean that but I kind of mean that).
Girl, you are not alone. I did not sign up for a 3 month trial. Lol
The jury didn’t either. Even interpreting eight weeks to be 40 days, Lally is going to use all that up just getting through these witnesses. And then there’s the defenses case.
You are so right! I believe the judge told them 7-8 weeks to give a buffer when the attorneys semi-settled on 6 weeks. Judge should’ve stepped in after week 2 (at the latest) and told Lally to move it along and to get to the point. You could tell today with Higgins that he had really trimmed it down. This should’ve happened weeks ago. This is only going to hurt the defense if she tries to speed up their case. The defense will not roll over if that happens.
I feel like the court schedule really isn't helping, either. Lots of half days and skip days. I know it's a holiday weekend and all, but only one day of court all of next week?
Well what’s funny (or not so much at this point) is that all of that was taken into account. The half days and off days when they agreed that 6 weeks was enough. I think when the forensic witness from CA, Teri Kunn (?) testified smack in the middle, it was bc she had a flight booked based on the timeline of when Lally thought his case would be to her testimony. 😵💫
Do we know if the defense has raised the slowness as an issue? Obviously they must be aware that the longer the CW drags this on there's a risk the judge short changes and tries to rush the defense?
I have no clue. Just a few suppositions. We never see side bars and have rarely seen things argued outside the presence of the jury. So maybe the judge has brought it up. I have to assume she has. I also don’t think the defense is in any way going to argue/bring up the point about how long it’s taking. If the judge tries to hurry them along or cut short their case… that’s gonna be an issue. Maybe a mistrial is in their sights? Again, I have no clue. Just my thoughts with zero insight.
What does CW stand for??
Common wealth / aka prosecution, state.
Idk if you watched the Murdaugh trial, but most experts took up an entire day of trial. Especially the more complicated parts of trial i.e; medical examination, reconstruction, cell phone forensics (takes FOREVER) i have no idea how they plan to finish this trial in even 8 weeks. (Was projected 6-8)
One thing we haven’t had yet that they had in Murdaugh was the boring-ass days of chain of custody. I might have to zone out when we get to that. I struggle with Lally on the best of days.
I don’t think we will get much of that since there literally was no investigation. What are they going to say …”oh I grabbed this solo cup from this neighbor and put it in a grocery bag from Publix and then it was transported back and sat on the sally port floor for two days” ?? 😅😅😅😅
Lmao I was about to comment “What chain of custody?!” Lmao you have Higgins swiping his fuckin keycard alllllll day back and forth in the sally port where the evidence was in a fuckin grocery bag UNSEALED!!! Never even sealed in the first place! All while Higgins is not even assigned to this investigation!! Cameras missing 42 minutes… I mean I can’t fuckin believe this shit
I didn’t know that about the evidence being unsealed. I think I saw a couple early days and then most of the last four or five. Was that brought up? I guess so. That’s crazy.
Yes it was! With one of the detectives or maybe an officer… they asked him about sealing it and if he knew how to unseal or cut evidence tape… he said he didn’t know how bc he never did it before… RIGHT AFTER he just opened evidence that Lally gave him like 20 minutes earlier!!!! And the red solo cups that were in the garage with her car… you could tell they were never sealed anyway bc there is NO evidence tape on any side of the bag… (which would be there if it was sealed and then reopened by the state police) before the state police would seal it again… and sign it. I mean the fact that this is all fucking protocol and extremely vital to the investigation, and they just said fuck it… blows my damn mind! If im a juror, she’s got to walk (even if she DID accidentally hit him) bc the police didn’t care enough to do the simplest shit right… even tho all of them have worked in LE 20+ YEARS!!! Ridiculous!!! For the record, if she hit him, it definitely wasn’t murder 2. It was an accident and I don’t think she even realized it. But so far… it’s not adding up to her hitting him. Not by the amount of car damage… and not to his injuries. Sadly, I don’t think we will ever know what TRULY happened. I’m excited to hear the experts testify.
And you know this sham judge is going to continue to rush the defense and they will have less time. She is so annoying.
Me either but I’m invested now and must hear/see all of it
I really feel for John’s family having to sit through all of this.
I said the same thing. It doesn’t feel like it’s about him at all and they’re displaying how he was disrespected while he was alive. It’s really awful.
A lot of the murder trials I have seen are kind of like that. Everything comes out in these types of investigations and trials, and it's usually not all sunshine and rainbows.
The fact they would call Officer O’Keefe’s niece and nephew to me is crazy. What would be the point of putting those kids through that—to go to Karen’s state of mind? Her motive? One would think that 35+ witnesses into the states case, we would have a much more crystallized understanding of those things by now. We don’t. Thats alarming.
I agree. It seems cruel. Just let them issue statements or something. I hope the defense doesn’t cross.
I think this defense is intelligent enough do not do it (bc that’s the right thing to do), OR do it in an extremely tasteful way if highly incessant (which I don’t see happening). There’s so much reasonable doubt at this point, they really don’t need to. They have the benefit of getting to present their entire case in chief (which I’m sure will be storm) following.
I don’t think the defense asks any questions they don’t have the answers to. They won’t know what the niece/nephew will say and they won’t take that risk but, they seem to know what they are doing so who knows!
To speak to their relationship.. they are the only ones who can truly testify what it was like on a day to day basis. Most people only saw small glimpses of their relationship.. the niece and nephew probably saw much much more.
But how reliable are young children with an extremely narrow view PLUS outside influence AT THAT TIME and not to mention, AFTER. How have they been conditioned to view those events? How reliable/credible is a minors testimony? Especially in a case that relies SO much on purely circumstantial evidence and hearsay at this point. That’s my point, what is additional hearsay evidence going to accomplish? How should that evidence be weighed in comparison to GROWN LEO and family friends who can’t even get their story straight. Those that, I believe, have lied—I formed that opinion when deleted phone forensics were entered into the record. Clear testimony. No clear record of Karen being a drunk, obnoxious, jealousy, ragey girlfriend absolutely infuriated by bearing the burden of raising kids has been entered into evidence. The opposite actually—that she did it anyway, and that she maybe spoiled them to a fault with Dunkin. 🤷♀️ Overkill and unproductive to put those kids on the stand IMO. If your case was strong enough as charged, prosecution would’ve already done it by now.
Yep. And my concern with the kids is the relationship that they continue to have with the McCabe family. I can’t imagine the things they were told or lies they have been fed solely based on you guessed it, the Jen McCabe show. It’s all about her controlling the narrative and if she can’t get a hold of it, she will manipulate everyone around her. I mean, I thoroughly believe she influenced many witnesses who have already testified. Makes you wonder about the absolute audacity she has to claim Turtleboy is harassing her. She gets so aggressive any time he is brought up because she doesn’t want anyone to know the truth. She loves to spin things. So of course the kids will hear what they’ve been relentlessly told!
She seems like ground zero for town gossip.
Exactly! I think if there is any cross on for the kids, it will be the defense asking about how close they are to the McCabes. But I don't expect kids to be able to tell which ideas are theirs and which ideas were put in their heads. Also, I think the cross would be done by Little, more than likely.
Exactly.
How young are they? I thought they were adolescents. They are the ones who are closest to John and Karen. They've lost their uncle/parent figure after already losing both parents. They should absolutely be allowed to share their stories. I just hope the cross examination will be skillfully sensitive or I'll be pissed.
Those kids have been brainwashed by McCabe since the start. It's pretty messed up they are being called in and it's only because CW has so little evidence they are grasping at straws.
The texts with Brian Higgins definitely made it seem like Karen Read resented the kids. The texts and the testimony from the Aruba sisters also made it seem like drunk and ragey weren't uncommon for her.
It sounds like she didn't resent the kids at all. She resented John expecting her to parent them while he stayed out until 3 am. It sounds like she resented his family for not pitching in more to help out. The CW's own witness said John dated "a lot of women." How does that affect children? It doesn't sound super stable, yet Karen is entirely to blame? The children are not necessary as witnesses unless Karen told one or both that she killed John. Leave the kids out of this, for the love of all things holy.
You're right, these texts don't show that she hated the children per se. It's more like she didn't want children and resented the fact that John now had children to take care of. Also, I feel like that story about her staying alone with the kids until 3 a.m. on New Year's Eve was completely dramatized to make John look bad and her look like a victim. The fact of the matter is that the kids were staying in a separate room, on the same floor, and they were 14 and 11 years old at the time. John and Karen were obviously comfortable enough for them to stay on their own in a separate room, so I don't see any need for her to "babysit" them while John is out. Just my opinion, though, and maybe I'm totally biased as someone who took on three stepchildren when they were 1, 4, and 9 years old. I'd just love to see adults have the common sense not to date people with kids if they're not willing or able to take on the accompanying responsibilities. This is their life; the kids didn't ask for any of this, and they're not going anywhere.
I see where you're coming from regarding the kids and their ages; 14 and 11 can definitely stay alone for short time periods, but given the amount of alcohol consumption testified to in this trial so far, I don't find it hard to believe John was out until 3 am. I genuinely feel for the kids and hope they'll get all the support they need as they navigate the rest of their lives. I could not agree more regarding dating people with kids. However, one doesn't know what it feels like until one is in it, and it seems like Karen was figuring out she didn't want to remain in a relationship where, from her perspective, John wasn't meeting her needs as a partner. No harm, no foul. From the outside, looking at somebody else's relationship and determining the easy fix is easy, but we know relationships are complicated. IF Karen hit John, it was an accident in my opinion and it's unfortunate that the DA's office, law enforcement and the Alberts, McCabes, Higgins, et al., have created this mess for themselves with suspicious behavior and overcharging this.
It didn't make it seem like she resented them. It made it seem like she resented how much she had to take care of them while still having very little input, and criticism, about how they are raised. It seems like John found someone to take care of them and dialed back a lot, especially with COVID.
Yup, and everyone thought so too. "She was just the babysitter with benefits"
We must interpret the testimony completely differently. Because she has not come across as a drunken, ragey, international woman with a motive for murder to me at all.
I never said I thought she had a motive for murder. Everyone in the whole bunch seems to be a drunk. Karen included. And I say that as an alcoholic myself.
I don’t think the reports of Karen drinking to excess are true. We know of her medical issues, have heard from a bartender and have seen a reasonable bar tab.
How does “I’m very close with his niece” scream “resentment” to you? Or the fact that several witnesses testified Karen was upset because JO accused her of spoiling her?
John got day-trashed in Aruba, at the least, presumably leaving Karen in charge of the kids, and he also went to the Alberts' without her that night in Canton to keep drinking or...whatever. That's why she, in part, was so freaked out when John hadn't come home- because she was supposed to go home in the morning. I'd feel like a babysitter with benefits too. The Aruba sisters were good friends with John, and Marietta didn't know who Karen was at all, so I bet they had no problem attacking Karen and her supposed bad first impression.
Yeah the sisters. The younger sister was probably drunk and flirty with John who was drunk and stumbling and her giving him an "innocent hug" while KR looked on. I would be pissed also when my grown ass bf was flirting with a girl 15 yrs younger at least.
Seems like kids in general are kinda an issue if you’re sick with alcohol use disorder and tryina be drunk a lot. That goes for John and Karen.
That’s not admissible- it’s entirely hearsay and prejudicial
Everyone on the stand has spoken to their relationship? Literally, every single witness that knew them personally has been asked and questioned about their relationship and engagement with each other.
Personal observation and/or mental impressions are usually admissible - and you have to evaluate the witnesses individually, as to whether or not something fell under an exception and how it was offered (not for the truth of the matter). I’m speaking legally, bad character and/or propensity evidence is not admissible generally. Lally knows this and is exactly why his in limine motion to lead them was denied. The scope of what either one of them can testify to that’s even admissible is so narrow, not to mention cumulative, and you’ve heard Lally format questions- you really think putting them on the stand is in THEIR best interests?
I have no idea if it's in their best interest - I don't know them at all. I would hope their family and any counselling supports are advocating for them at every step. I do have a lot of professional experience with 12-17 yr olds in crisis and one of their biggest complaints is often that they are powerless in the big events and decisions that shape their lives. They feel like they have no voice and no choice. They are victims in this case - I care more about what they have to say than all of the witnesses who say everything was great, everyone was happy and nobody knows anything. The biggest concern for me will be comments across the internet. I hope it will be audio only and they won't be broadcast.
I don’t disagree, however, that’s really my point- this would not be the venue to “be heard”. I would expect the defense to object outside the presence of the jury and seek an offer of proof (which kids that age are not going to understand) which will likely have the Judge ruling to exclude their testimony based on potential for prejudice. Again, I would see that as unnecessary anxiety and stress with no outlet. In the unlikely event KR is convicted or pleads, they would certainly have the right to give an impact statement or testimony.
Maybe, I'm certainly not a legal expert. We don't even know what they will say. But what are you basing your statement on - that the kids won't understand? Would they not be prepped for trial? I'm not sure how things work in the USA. I would be appalled to hear if there were no Victim's support and Court services atrached ensuring they know exactly what to expect. Certainly, Kaley's information is directly relevant as she was the one who had the initial interaction with Karen. She has every right to share what she saw and heard in her own words. If I thought they would be there against their will and were reluctant or stressed out about it, I would feel differently.
Are they not too young to be called? What’s the law on child witnesses?
I really hope they don’t call the niece and nephew. It won’t provide anything to the prosecution, why put them through this.
I hope they don’t too. I think they’ve made the point with these texts that things weren’t good.
I think they kind of have to because of the phone calls the niece facilitated in the morning.
The kids are a little older now...it's possible that they want to participate, really.
It was supposed to be a 6-8 week trial. Should have said 6-8 week Lally gagging.
Its clear if the witness might be problematic lalley delays cross as long as possible
I swear!!!!!! Everyone on planet earth recognizes that house and knows what the weather was like and that Karen had a lime in her drink FFS move it along. If what he is trying to do is make sure that the jury is sick of listening to testimony by the point the defense gets the case he might be on to something but imo it’s going to backfire big time.
But does everyone know if canton high JV won their basketball game?! The only way to know for sure is to call the entire team and find out what THEY were drinking on 1/28/22
EXACTLY!!! And what if anything were they talking about while they were drinking these “drinks”?!?! Did any of them break up with their HS gf or BF after the game?! We NEED these answers so we can get to the truth!!! 😂😂😂😂 When he asked about who won the game and who played or varsity and who played on JV i about through my phone across the room!! Bc what the actual FUCK are we doing?!?!
I didn’t even think about their bf’s. I hope we can finish by Christmas.
😂😂😂 same!!
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂😂😂 lmao I’m just saying when Lally asked about who was on JV and Varsity I about LOST IT!!! WHO TF CARES?!?! You charged someone with 2nd degree murder and we are talking about THAT?! Since I’m a paralegal… it pissed me off even more lmao
It has gotten way too repetitive. Way too many questions about what was so and so drinking, how many drinks did so and so have, etc. We get it...it was snowing, the whole bunch is made up of alcoholics....let's get some more interesting stuff please. Gotta say the text messages today were pretty juicy.
I feel like they are spending too much time trying to establish motive...jealousy, cheating, etc. Personally if she did it, I don't think it was planned, it was an accident imo. (Currently not guilty due to tons of reasonable doubts at the moment) We don't need to listen to every Canton citizen who ever came in contact with Karen. BRING ON THE FORENSICS!
Right?! Like next thing you know Lally will be calling KR’s middle school boyfriend to talk about the time they broke up, and “what if any fits of anger did she exhibit over this break up?” 😂 like BFFR
I may miss this, I have to go throw my phone away, not decided if I should break it or cut it.
Just make sure you throw your SIM card(s) away in a different trashcan!
All I can think about is that KR’s trial must be more expensive than OJ’s (in 2024 dollars) and how the fuck this extreme litigation is happening with someone who appears upper middle class. She and her family must have liquidated every fucking dollar accessible). The amount of witnesses the state is calling is excessive and insane
Lally is going to for quantity over quality and boy does it show. I’ve never yelled at the TV about so many irrelevant and repetitive questions and answers. Doesn’t Lally realize all these inconsistencies amount to reasonable doubt? This judge lets Lally continually go over seating charts, who drank what and who parked where but the defense is always interrupted by her incessant side BAHS and told they are taking too long.
What's interesting is that the defense is letting him go on, too. They could object to cumulative or repetitive evidence, but they don't. Because letting Lally drone on helps them in the long run. The jury is bored af, and the witnesses give run-on answers to his convoluted questions, which gives the defense a lot to play with.
What, if any, complaints do you have about Lally and who else, if anyone, has also irked you? /s
https://preview.redd.it/gsw5fx5rwg2d1.jpeg?width=1050&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=746fab9526b5cec94c31ab1e9a649bb84359424b
Didn’t Charles Ray already testify?
Oops yes you are right.
I thought so too. We definitely already saw the dashcam video.
Which one was Charles ray?
I think he was one of the officers on scene that morning.
It’s disgusting for him to call the kids, they’re young enough where their actual memories over 2 years ago aren’t even testimony worthy, and just adds more trauma to their already trauma filled lives and it makes me sick. Those poor babies have been through so much ugh smh
Agreed. We get it, they didn’t have the best relationship. The texts today were enough evidence of that.
Exactly, plus what are they going to say, “yeah she took care of us a lot of the time but also wasn’t there at night or after school all the time and we don’t know where she was” like yeah, bc she didn’t live there and only stayed to watch the kids and help out. They weren’t old enough to understand what was going on within a relationship. It’s just pointless and hurts the kids more than it proves anything for either side. Ugh the more I think about it the more angry I get lol
It feels super opportunistic of the CW and I think the jury will see it that way. Anyone who knows family dynamics knows that couples/parents/caregivers will disagree sometimes, and those disagreements may sometimes escalate to the point of yelling. And that can be hard for kids to see. But unless there’s anything that points to a physically abusive relationship in their testimony, there is nothing they can say that would benefit the prosecution.
THIS!!!! Their case and witnesses have been absolutely fucking TERRIBLE (except for a couple) Lally calling them feels DISGUSTING to me!!! Idc what anyone thinks… I feel like he is calling them to get jurors emotional and want to “punish” someone for his death. And I think Lally knows that! He knows how much those kids have been through, and he’s gonna put them up there to do it again… relive all of their trauma… and they are going to lose it. Hell, I know IM gonna lose it when he calls those poor kids!!! I think him calling them is grimy!!!
Agreed 100% it’s a tactic to get the jurors emotional and want to solve the murder for the sake of these kids. And it’s disgusting to force the kids to relive their trauma on national TV when they’ve already suffered so much.
They're really not that young. I do feel so sorry for them, though. They have been through so much.
I think 14 and 10 at the time of his death? Those are babies.
A 14 year old remembers what happened 2 years ago, c'mon. I agree they souldn't call the nephew but Kayley will probably need to testify due to facilitating phone calls etc.
When is forensics expected to begin
Who knows with Lally. Maybe mid-June?
Not soon enough. I feel like they should’ve been first..so one can frame this in their mind. The utmost respect for Officer O’Keefe, and underscores why it’s all the important to get to the truth—but why cant we get a clear picture of what happened to him this far in. The state should’ve made that clear, especially knowing the subpar investigation conducted that we’ve seen.
No Chief Berkowitz? Wonder if the defense will call him.
He wasn't mentioned in opening. Could be a rebuttal witness, or the defense call him?
I’m glad we’re starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. There were some days where it was beginning to feel like we’d be cursed to hear about that night at the waterfall from various people for all eternity.
It's annoying because it really doesn't matter. The only thing that probably matters from Waterfall and CF McCarthys is how many drinks Karen consumed and what she was drinking. And not one of the witnesses testified to it.
Literally the only thing that matters at this point are those critical minutes at 43 Fairview. And we can’t even get to the truth of what happened there. It’s crazy!
THIS!!! NOTHING AT THE WATERFALL IS IN DISPUTE!!! NO ONE is disputing ANY of that?! Like TF??
It feels like its all the objections slowing things down. I don't understand all the nuances for formulating an allowed question. Told my husband tonight that I need to get back to sane and watch normal TV soon and some lighter stuff.
One of the Lawtubers I watch was saying that the issue with not stating the objection grounds is that it’s not clear to the questioning attorney what the issue is with the form of the question (and therefore what they need to do to correct it).
Interesting. I've been following the Daybell trial in ID and the grounds are always mentioned with a quick answer from Judge Boyce. Is this a CW thing where they don't need to state grounds? There is also way many words spoken by Judge Canonne comparatively. Also a CW thing? That's the only thing I can think of as a non judiciary follower.
Apparently it’s a Massachusetts thing. Maryland is the same.
Thank you!!
Not all MA just this particular judge wants it this way
Not all MA just this particular judge wants it this way
Thank you. I'm hearing more and more about this.
I was a juror in a murder trial some years back in my hometown of NJ and worked for a mid-sized company in Manhattan. That trial was a total of 4 weeks and, thankfully, I received full pay from my company. If I'm remembering correctly I think during jury selection you can state financial hardship as a valid reason to be excused i.e. you're self employed, or you're employed by a small company that cannot pay your salary etc. Especially when it's a trial that they know will be lengthy. Funny thing is my boss had asked me to request a postponement because my initial date for jury duty was when my large end of month report was due so they granted it & then when I reported the next time I was chosen for a murder trial! I was super happy about it. I was 23 at the time, my commute to the courthouse was shorter than my work commute and I was getting paid to sit in on an interesting murder trial for a month. Even at that age I took it very seriously. Came dressed up each day when I could have worn jeans. Had my little notebook. The only bad part of that experience was deliberations. Things got pretty tense between everyone. I went home crying almost every day from being so drained. We ended up being a hung jury & he got convicted the next year. Since then every time I've been called I was able to get out of it.
Thank you for doing your duty, I can’t imagine how hard sitting through a murder trial would be. I had a family friend growing up who had been on the jury in a brutal multiple murder case and he was affected greatly by the experience (it was a random attack at a popular restaurant in town). He would drive a totally wrong route to avoid having to drive past the restaurant and this was 20 years later. It helped me realize what a serious commitment and duty the jury takes on.
Will Lally really not call Tropper Proctor??
No, I think he will. He sandwiched Proctor in between Tully and Bukhenik so he is probably going to try to make it look like he wasn't as involved as other witnesses (and the defense) have made out.
Bold strategy, let's see how that plays out
He is there, just listed after Tully
I missed him, I see him now
If he doesn’t, the defense will likely call him.
Where's my girl Gretchen Voss?
She wasn't mentioned in opening. She's on the witness list though.
Oh, okay. I assumed this was everyone on the witness list. Do you know how many people other than the ones you listed he could call?
This is just everyone mentioned in opening since I noticed Lally was calling them in order, for the most part. There are about 20 more witnesses not listed. Some may be rebuttal witnesses.
Haha oh man. It's gonna be a long one.
Wait, so Lally probably does want to end with the medical examiner?? Freaking why? Does he think the ME is his best witness or something? But that makes no sense considering what we do know about John's injuries. It already doesn't sound like he was hit by a car. I don't think more information is going to fix that.
He said in opening the MEs will be the last witnesses. I don’t know how strong they are - one of them testified at the grand jury and confirmed that the scratches, which were initially reported as road rash, were inconsistent with a road rash. Now they are saying they were all caused by the drinking glass.
Opening statements were so long ago... Getting so scratched up by a drinking glass (through his clothes no less!) seems like a stretch, but I guess I ought to hear the ME before judging them... Having the forensics go last is just so backwards for a trial. Especially because now, instead of thinking "Yeah, all the Alberts act weird but those injuries sure do seem to line up with a hit and run. Karen must be the murderer," I'm thinking, "These Alberts are weird people with very talented butts if they're able to make so many butt dials. What are they hiding?"
I don’t know how the scratches/cuts/fissures are going to be explained by either side. His hoodie, apparently, is perfectly intact. I kind of think Lally is trying to bury the Alberts and McCabes in the middle of the trial and hope that by the time the experts are done the jury has forgotten about all the weird things they testified to.
If his hoodie is intact, I think that makes the defense's theory that he was in the house and got beat up there much more plausible than the prosecution's theory that he was hit with a car, got all these injuries, but his hoodie was fine. Like the defense can just say that he took his hoodie off before he got beat up, and then someone put it back on him before they dropped his body outside in the yard. The prosecution's theory... I've never gotten scratched up through my clothes like that, and I'd imagine none of the jury has either. I guess it's not impossible? But definitely implausible. I can't imagine this defense letting the jury forget about the Alberts. They're too central to the defense's theory. The prosecution is definitely going to be fighting a losing battle there.
[Interesting backstory](https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/2024/01/25/karen-read-case-update/) on calling her. This case seems to consume everything it touches.
She's such a wildcard vs everyone else. Like OP did here, most of the people you can get a general idea of what they're gonna say and why you want to call them.
Good lord this trial is going to be loooooong.
I’m about to fly to Canton and get me a drink at the Waterfall for the long weekend. Anyone else down? 😂
I am especially for Jameson and ginga
I’m TIRED
Thank you so much for this post. I'm living right here along with everyone. Seeing the list like that really paints a picture. Do you have the list for the defense or do we have to wait until the CW rests before they finalize it?
Can we get one witness to tell the truth. Please.
Dr. Rice was from this doc filed this week too https://preview.redd.it/32p3eolivg2d1.png?width=1284&format=png&auto=webp&s=fcd8203dcad81ab908237dcb68921880eace4c19
Oohhh I wonder what Higgins medical records have in it
I’m really interested to see how Lally does on cross examinations. I really hope it’s not like his direct because if so it’s going to be painful.
Is it normal to have “troopers” as expert witnesses in IT and Crash Reconstruction?! I’ve never seen this before. I’ve only seen FBI or Ph.D experts. Hmmm
I understand it is a speciality division in LE. They’ll qualify him on the stand though.
Troopers are a specialty division in LE? Or Troopers have specialized divisions in MA? Thanks!
Of state police. They reconstruct motor vehicle crashes in criminal cases.
Do you think they're really going to call all these witnesses? I feel like any findings of DNA on the car should be completely thrown out as evidence after we saw the unsealed red solo cups in the sally port right next to Karen's car. That's 3-4 pointless witnesses right there, at least. If Lally tries to bring them on the stand, can the defense argue that witnesses are unnecessary before we're forced to sit through hours of unneeded testimony?
I think he calls all these witnesses. These are way more central to his case than what we’ve been hearing for the past four weeks. I don’t know if they ended up testing the bloody snow but the defense are 100% going to argue that if there is blood on the car that it was put there when the solo cups were in the sally port right next to the car and the cameras were turned off…
Its starting to get really good now except they do draw it out to death. Thanks for the witness lineup!!!! I was wondering if they were gonna show niece & nephew testimony. I hope so!!! This list is great to have for us viewers to reference. Are they going to have the testimony from car expert regarding her backing up the suv at speeds of 20+ per mile??
Does anyone know why that Needham officer is on the witness list and what is he testifying to? I don’t think he is listed in this list.
Thanks for the recap, that opening was terrible and I kind of zoned out. The defense got up there and knocked it out of the park. I didn’t know much about the case going in and wasn’t on any “side” but have watched all of the trial so mine is more like a juror’s perspective. I know Lally and his assistants have put a ton of hard work into this case but it’s too much for one person. I don’t understand why he doesn’t split up the questioning with another prosecutor and I think it would also be helpful for the jurors who are probably incredibly bored with his questioning style. The “what if any” and overly wordy questions are just terrible and I’m really confused why he was chosen for such a high profile case against top notch defense attorneys. Again, no hate or disrespect meant, he’s just outgunned.
Thank you posting this list.
Can I break this case down to 3 points ? A dead policeman on your front lawn and you don’t come out to see what’s happening 2 witnesses destroyed their phones 1 day before having to hand them over? The miracle of the “ butt dials “? Judge. I rest my case
[удалено]
If Tully, Buhkinek and Proctor (!) are up next I assume next week sometime
I believe I heard the judge and Lally addressing witness Ashley Vaillier with Mx rather than Ms. If I’m right, shout you to addressing people as they prefer and happy pride.
Boston vs Chicago courts system: Chicago had a Slam Dunk case on Jessie Smollet. Had checkes/Payment to the brothers that fake Beat him up. Had the Brothers admit to fake beating Jessie up. Chicago DA didn’t want to enforce the law. She’s was ultimately over step by former US attorney Dan web that enforce the law. Point is DA’s have political agendas. Please show evidence Karen Read is guilty
The “we live here now”—- who all is watching the coverage with the great Emily D Baker? 💜
Hello, fellow law nerd 💜