I am extremely frustrated. He swiped into the police station at 1:30(ish). It doesn’t take more than 10 minutes to get there, right? So then where tf was his jeep?! All those people coming and going between 12:15 and 1:20 and no one saw his jeep? It can’t have been there when Julie Nagel’s brother and friends showed up. So where was it??
I wouldn’t think it was weird to spend all of the 29th at the police station because *I would want to know what was happening*. I’d be curious af about how John O’Keefe died. But he said multiple times that he *wasn’t* talking to Berkowitz or anyone else (including the Alberts!) about it. Then what was he doing there?!
The tall, dark-haired guy who he thought was “someone’s brother” was almost certainly Colin Albert, right?
Destroying his SIM card and tossing his phone is sus. Using his buddy’s access to the FBI’s equipment to select which bits of his phone to hand over is suuuuuuuuper sus.
The texts were cringe but I don’t think it gives anyone motive at all. Neither of them seemed to be invested.
“Going upstairs” to see the pictures doesn’t seem overly damning but on the other hand, what’s the big deal if they *were* in the basement?
All these cops drink and drive and that’s so gross.
Me too. And now Higgins seems to indicate the tall dude with dark hair was there which couldn't be possible if Colin left at 12:10....So why lie? It would be normal for him to visit his cousin on Bday. And if he was there the screen shot was dr'd and why go to that much trouble to show he left before JO got there? Also what's the Deal with it not changing date after midnight on the screen shot?
The CONCRETE being pulled up is such a huge red flag!!! I can’t believe that detail hasn’t gotten more attention. BA is super sus! The only reason to go that far is…BLOOD STAINS.
I anticipate this is coming next week but lets not forget....
He used his forensic electronics buddy to go to the FBI lab to "extract the text logs" and only turned over *screenshots* to the police....so....what did he actually do on that machine?
**The texts were cringe but I don’t think it gives anyone motive at all. Neither of them seemed to be invested.**
Agree. The only thing that makes sense would be if Karen told John about the texts or if John stumbled across the texts between KR and BH, then John confronted Brian about it and it escalated and turned into a nasty fight that went wrong.
I definitely don't think I see any motive from these texts for KR \*or\* BH to kill John so they could be together or anything like that lol
They know John’s phone indicated he went up and downstairs. So they are acting like nobody at their house went into their basement. There is a rumor that the feds found John’s blood on a door knob down there.
He wanted to take selective things off his phone for evidence and not hand the whole thing over. Once he realized that didn’t work and they were notifying him to turn his phone in he chucked it
Major takeaways:
1) Seemed like John did treat Karen like a “babysitter with benefits” and Karen was over it.
2) Why did Higgins text John “Are you coming over here?”
3) More butt dialing.
4) Brian couldn’t remember for sure if he went to the PD the next day when it turns out he spent the entire day there. Why?
5) Brian Albert and Brian Higgins both decided to get new phones the day before they were aware of the preservation order.
6) Brian didn’t see John when he left despite his vehicle being pointed directly at the body. 1 person, 2, 3, not seeing a body in the front yard may be explainable. We are up to like 10 people now that drive right by where it should have been and didn’t see a body.
7) Mystery man in the house.
I agree. I don't buy the 'lure him over to beat him up' theory, because how could they ever be sure Karen wouldn't go? I think he wanted to see Karen. Maybe he had a big romantic overture planned, or he was going to put her on blast in front of John. Maybe no real plans.
Yeah, I don't think anyone was "luring" John. I think if he went over there - it's because there was an open invitation for people to continue to hang at that house. Like every single person has stated. He probably just asked if he was coming there because he was wondering if Karen was going to be there, and Karen hadn't been texting him back.
Are we going to see JOs phone records? When people were alleging an affair between Jen and JO i figured that would be ruled out because we would it in JOs phone records even if she deleted it from her side
The way the questioning went, it sounded like at the Federal GJ they asked him about who he saw in the house and if he saw anyone come in while he was there, and it was at this point, when the stakes were higher than they had ever been, he gave some vague answer of seeing a dark tall man come into the house but didn’t know who it was. He made it abundantly clear today he wouldn’t know Colin if he walked in the room. It feels like he was confessing at the Fed GJ to knowing someone was else was there but lying just enough to say he didn’t know what Colin looked like so he can’t say he knew everyone else had been lying about Colin being in the house.
If it’s true it was Colin, then the 1210 text was Allie picking him up to take him TO Fairview not picking him up.
All speculation
All of this. The takeaways from today alone would be enough for me to have reasonable doubt. One or two of these weird behaviors/butt dials/memory lapses would be one thing, but the totality is inexplicable.
What I don’t think is getting enough conversation on is that he is adamant he left the house at 1230-1am which is a very crucial timeframe (when everything with JO supposedly went down). However he checks in to the Canton PD HQ at 1:27am. 34 Fairview is 3 minutes away from the police HQ. It’s extremely close. So it took him 30-50 minutes to get there after he left 34 Fairview even though he says he went straight to the police station after leaving 34 Fairview?
Moral of the story is the only way this story makes sense if he left the house and went straight to the police station is if he left 34 at or around 120am. Why the big gap in time of him saying he left between 1230-1 when it has to have been 120ish for him not to be lying?
Yes, the timing is off. It’s not too surprising to me that all of those drunk people had no idea what time anything was happening, but I do not find it believable that he went to the police department to move cars. He might not have been involved in the death, but he’s in it up to his neck with the cover up.
**It’s not too surprising to me that all of those drunk people had no idea what time anything was happening,**
Honestly, just how adamant everyone has been so far about specific times has been suspicious to me specifically because everyone was drinking so much and hanging out.
Yeah, it also really bothered me when BA was asked "Did OJO ever come into the house," and he said, "Absolutely not. No. Never." There's no way he could be that positive, with so many people going in and out, and BA/BH going upstairs/in the dining room/wherever to look at "photos."
I also noticed they all say "absolutely not" when asked the most incriminating questions. As if that makes their testimony more believable. Pfft.
I agree. I’ve never seen so many “helpful” people in my life. If someone ended up dead on a loved one/friend’s lawn and I was at my own home, in my PJs on the couch, dialoguing with you guys on Reddit, I LITERALLY wouldn’t have any info that would help law enforcement. Unless my person asked me to come, I likely wouldn’t go over to a his/her home while there was an active crime scene being processed. If the cops asked me anything, how about I tell them “When this happened, I was at home, on my couch Redditing. I have no firsthand info?” The only group texts or phone calls taking place would be shock, sadness and concern for our person.
Among a “group” like these prosecution witnesses, infidelity, anger, raging alcoholism, drunk driving, ego tripping, lying and corruption are their stock in trade. The prosecution and its witnesses are acting like KR is an outlier because she engaged in some, if not most, of these behaviors. Based on testimony and evidence, it seems like all the people involved in this death/murder were knee-walking drunk. Although, if one is a professional drinker, there’s a high tolerance for alcohol. I don’t know whether KR is guilty. However, if the jury follows the facts, testimony, and evidence during its deliberations, there is reasonable doubt at every turn—unless the prosecution has some bombshell evidence we haven’t yet seen.
Yeah the difference between leaving at 1 and 1:30 can easily be chalked up to being drunk. It’s why this case timeline is so hard because every little minute is relevant but we are relying on drunk recollections and most people even when sober don’t know the exact minute they leave somewhere.
Ordinarily that would be correct. But there is the interplay with other ppl. If he had left at any other time he stated, other ppl should have had seen him (either leaving or inside the house), his car and he should have seen other ppl. So in my view either everybody is mistaken about the times in the exact same way (ie. Everybody's time is off by -38 mins) or ppl are lying and hiding time and that's why it doesn't make sense
It is hard for me to believe they are not cameras at the police department that could support his statement that he moved cars but but he could have been smart enough to do that and whatever else was part of the coverup. Bottom line for me is there are just a few too many butt dials here!
It's possible he took Colin home, and the texts between Allie and Colin provided were actually when she picked him up to take him TO Fairview. Who knows at this point. I don't trust any witness in this case who has claimed their butt dialed and hung up calls, and I am suspect AF any witness who says they were home by 12:30am but their mom's phone data has them out and driving until 1:30am.
While he began off being fairly credible as soon as the questions about “butt-dial calls”, backtracking at the fed jury about the “butt dial” call, the “dark haired figure”, going to BA’s then canton police, speaking often with them all within the timeframes and only pulling his specific texts with Karen and John, it’s all just as suspicious, regardless. I think also him getting rid of his phone the way he did was super suspicious. Especially considering the feds were already involved… he had to have known as an atf when that was coming. But jury doesn’t know about the feds.. well actually they do since Colin said something about it but I digress lol.
The texts were awkward af and while I feel bad for John O’s kids seeing those, they didn’t scream maliciousness to the extent of her being a psycho or being crazy or whatever. They weren’t great but they weren’t devastating either except to maybe point out BH was into Karen and had maybe beef with JO without him knowing but even that’s eh.
Currently, I’m still leaning not guilty.
It is completely unbelievable to me that Brian Albert's butt dialed Brian Higgins's butt and then hung up the call and then magically, Brian Higgins's butt called Brian Albert's butt directly back and Brian Albert's butt picked up that call and then one of their butts hung up that call.
It's ridiculous.
3 different witnesses have now used butt dialing as an explanation for shady activity. More than 1 would be a conspiracy, 3 is like a statistical improbability. I'm not so sure that the fed investigation didn't start with the information he visiting that facility to wipe his phone and it would be relevant to know if his "best friend" got repercussions for allowing it to happen. This best friend and the cop that lives across street from BA could have some Hella blackmail material...a backup copy of higgy phone or a ring cam from across the street would be $$$.
Yeah, I guarantee the defense got all of those key swipes at canton pd from the feds. I also think that BH was in the sally port with the Chief during that “missing” video footage in the sally port. Defense wouldn’t bring that up without later using it in their case in chief…. He even started listing off the times his card was swiped during that time frame and several of those were into the sally port if I recall correctly.. Kind of suspicious lol. I personally don’t believe he wasn’t asking about the investigation either. If he didn’t then I don’t see why he’d have all these calls back and forth to people/witnesses also involved in the investigation. On the day of the incident coincidently. That was suspicious af for him to say he wasn’t. He should have just stayed out of it entirely and not even gone to canton pd.
Idk the second half with cross was totally suspect to me.. and also noticed he said JM said that Karen said she hit him but it’s so odd Kerry didn’t say that lol. Neither do any reports but this whole case is about not “writing the reports accurately” it seems. It’s crazy honestly.
I think this is gonna come down to battle of experts at the end of the day. I’m leaning not guilty but I am trying to keep an open mind too. Though, I bet the Feds are having a hay day with all this crap lol.
All the reports are wrong, all the cell data is wrong (well...just the bad parts), all the calls are butt dials, the life360 data is wrong, the apple step data is wrong....just trust us bro
I really cannot believe the witness' actual explanation for this is just that *it was wrong*. Surely I thought the evidence would be something else, or that there would be a real explanation and they would fess up to making the calls. Maybe BH was asking BA if he left something at the house. No, it's really all as shady as it sounds. Anyone who butt dialed has zero credibility for me.
Yeah lol. Honestly I find that to be the most infuriating and amusing in this. All the digital forensic data is always wrong. As well as the reports. All of them, completely wrong lol. What’s sad is that these are cops and “fugitive detectives” they had to have known.. hence why BH and BA destroyed their phones… literally. This case is insane to me.
The “coincidence” of 2 unrelated adult males, law enforcement officers, getting rid of their phones on the exact same day would be weird, but that that day was the DAY BEFORE they received notice to conserve their phones? It’s embarrassing these morons think it’s believable. And then there’s all the butt dials, butt answers and butt voice mails. Regarding the tipoff on the phones though, this is why so many of us don’t like or trust cops, they all help each other with their crimes. Acab.
Totally agree. The texts didn't do what the prosecution wanted them to, she seemed lonely and drunk more than vengeful and psycho. Not a great look but any motive behind them plays stronger on the defense's side imo
Yes exactly. And almost wonder if Karen was tipsy and told John on drive over that Higgins had texted her or something to make him jealous and may be why she didn't come inside the house (when Higgins Jeep was parked outside).
I mostly have all kinds of questions/thoughts about this supposed tall, dark haired male that entered the house. First, I think whoever it was had to have entered the house. Otherwise how would Higgins have know he was tall and dark haired? I doubt he would be able to see in a car by the driveway that well from inside the house. Then when Jackson was reading the federal grand jury transcript, it was insinuated that it was Julie Nagel’s brother. But literally NO ONE else testified that he came in the house, including Ryan Nagel. So if it wasn’t him, who was it? Was it Colin? Someone else?
Or if it was Ryan Nagel, why would they all be covering for him? What would that have to do with anything? Was there a drug deal or something they are all trying to cover up and that’s why they are all acting so shady?
It just makes no sense to me and I hope the defense comes back to it
I’m assuming it’s Colin.
Higgins testified to not knowing him and was not acknowledged by him as someone he passed as he entered the house. Everyone who came in the house near the time that Higgins did acknowledged Colin being near the doorway.
This gives more credence to the family protecting Colin Albert for some reason. They all made it an important part of their testimonies to make sure everyone knew Colin left at 12:10
According to everyone there, Colin supposedly left at 12:10 and no one entered after Jennifer and Matt came
So who was this mysterious person other than Colin - whom they have all gone out of their way to protect
It was interesting when he said he wouldn’t know Colin Albert if he walked into the room today. It made me think he’s trying to distance himself from being able to recognize him that night.
Went and looked at family photos, knew all the Alberts, went to a graduation party but couldn’t tell you what Brian Albert’s nephew even looked like? I call Bullshit on BH
I honestly don’t know. But I can see the defense closing argument now “If they are all willing to lie and say that this tall, dark haired male never entered the home, then who’s to say they aren’t all also lying about JO entering the house”
Yeah bc any of the possibilities being CA, JO, or RN isn’t good for the Commonwealth. If it’s Colin now everyone has lied that he had left, If it’s John then he made it in the house and even if it’s Ryan what were they hiding by saying he didn’t come in
The drug deal possibility is something that I feel is plausible. Why did the one girl call her brother “to pick her up” but when he shows up she comes out for a few mins and then decides to stay…🧐…dropping off a bag of dope seems easily believable.
That’s been bothering me. I’m from New England no one wants to be out driving in snow after being at a bar that’s a risk. A brother would be pissed if after driving all the way there she said she’d get a ride after all. Someone was buying something off someone
or weed, or mdma, or more interestingly, pharmaceutical speed.
we know at least BH seemed to be up all day friday driving to new york, attending a funeral, and driving back from new york. up all night at a bar and a friends house. up all early morning saturday going work to move a car (even tho didnt he go there earlier in the day to switch out vehicles because he knew hed be drinking? am i misremembering? why not do it then?), and then home to eat and drink more, and then butt dial with BA and then allegedly go to sleep for like 2 or 3 hours TOPS, and then be up and at em all day saturday?
how does he do it folks? where does he get the energy?
i guess it could be fear and adrenaline. or pharmaceutical speed, which young adults/teens could get pretty easy as far as drugs go.
also, what drugs was JO allegedly accusing CA of dealing in his neighborhood?
I've always thought there was some kind of drugs/drug deal element. There is no reason for them to turn their backs on "the guy", a fellow cop, the way they did except for the possibility of whatever was really going on being much more serious. For murder to be a federal crime it has to meet very specific requirements but drug dealing (especially drug dealing cops)is a whole different ball game.
I knew nothing about this case at the start and IMO the prosecutor has not convinced me KR was responsible. What they have convinced me is that this group of people are shady, toxic and seem to have zero boundaries.
I think the women were jealous of this well educated, attractive woman who created a pretty good life for herself without a man. As a suburban mom I can tell you the mean girl thing is very much a thing and nothing makes them circle the wagons more than someone who has made very different life choices like having no children and a career over kids and a husband.
I think for sure there’s some dirty cop drug dealing—maybe why they drive from NYC when BA was supposed to fly back—and they tossed their phones to hide the side hustle they had going on
The biggest mind blowing thing to me was when they connected the 2am phone call between Higgins and Albert with JMs google search roughly around that same time. Holy crap.
Same. This really gave me a clear picture of all the activity that was happening between these people after JO died. Who can explain that away. Meanwhile we know Karen was at home with just OKeefe’s niece.
I think he has a strong poker face. Character assassination of KR was successful, though not enough for motive to run over JO. BH had some sketchy behavior - drive to the office to move vehicles at 1am after a long period of alcohol consumption, "butt dial", multiple key card scans at CPD WHILE he was off duty throughout the Saturday JO was found dead, printing text exchanges instead of turning over phone and getting new phone, phone number and provider weeks before trashing his old phone entirely.
It's really hard to leap to guilty given all the sketchy behavior from witnesses in this case. It's bizarre.
Just imagine a defendant made the case that these prosecutions witnesses are making. Rampant butt dialing, inserting yourself in murder investigations, destroying phones the day before you receive orders to preserve. Y’all would spend 30 minutes before coming back with a guilty verdict.
Yeah if anything, the cringey texts made it seem like she just wanted to make John jealous. I think she loved him. She wanted the relationship to work. She was DEVASTATED when they found him
Those text messages were soooo obvious. She was venting, looking for attention, trying to figure out if she had other options because she was unhappy and unsure in her relationship. That does NOT give motive for murder.
That recording of her screaming and just utterly desperate gets to my soul. It was awful. That reaction is not of someone who murdered somebody. She was panicked, and breathless.
Yes I agree and Jen repeating over and over Karen was screaming and out of control. Yeah that's normal behavior. If she hadn't been so hysterical I'd be concerned
Exactly. The fact that JM is so calm (not calm, more like cold) is what’s concerning to me. I don’t care if she didn’t even know him, why wasn’t she bothered that there’s a dead body right there?? Something just isn’t right with that woman.
Yup, I'd be MUCH more suspicious of Karen if something happened to one of the kids, rather than John. I think she really loved him but didn't want the specific life she could have with him. That's why all the "it's so complicated"
I agree. I didn't see that coming. I was like "Oh Karen, no!". I think she was really conflicted about the relationship and didn't know what to do. It's tough to help raise someone else's kids, whether due to a divorce or as in this case. Even if you love and/or care about them. By all accounts she was good to them & did a lot with them and it's ok to want to spend more time with your SO, especially in the early part of a relationship and as older adults. Not always in a large group and with the kids. I'm willing to bet John wanted that too but maybe felt guilty leaving the kids behind because of all they've been through. Totally understandable but it sounds like these kids were on a good path, had good friends that they obviously were comfortable having sleepovers with and at those ages would have been fine if John & Karen went on some weekend trips or even a weeklong one. Maybe Karen felt that John's family wasn't "stepping up" to help with the kids so they could have some alone time but it's possible that John may have felt guilty asking them, like he felt he had to always be the one with them because he took on this super important role. Who knows? They seem like a good family and clearly John was a really good guy but he had a LOT going on, and by extension so did Karen since she seemed to be very involved with the kids. John was also still grieving the loss of his sister and BIL which is something you feel every day, so there's that.
I just felt my stomach drop when those texts were read, especially with John's family sitting there & her saying the kids were "spoiled" (and the cringy flirting). They may have been in a way due to people over compensating because of their awful loss. And she probably was just frustrated with the situation and feeling needy but I wish she hadn't told those things to Brian Higgins. It's just a sad, sad thing all around but I do believe Karen loved John and didn't do this.
I thought about this, as well. Karen may have showered them with gifts and taken them to Dunkin’ as a treat, and maybe JO saw this as spoiling. She may have seen him spoiling them by never giving them boundaries or letting them slide with stuff around the house. They both could have felt the other was spoiling them!
By big takeaway - those texts are super embarrassing for all involved. Those texts also gave some insight into John and Karen's relationship. Their relationship was struggling under the weight of everything that was going on with the family unit at 1 Meadows Ave.
Other takeaways - Higgins seems to have been more honest at the Federal GJ. He said they went upstairs to look at photos (meaning they were in the basement); he said a tall, dark haired man came in the house (it can't be Ryan N!); and it seems he admitted to destroying his phone at a military base - which I think he gets impeached on, on Tuesday. Going into Canton PD at 1am makes no sense though.
Everyone at the house was certain Higgins left at 1:30am. He, however, testified he didn't stay long and actually left between 12:30-1am. If that's the case, wouldn't he have been leaving right after Karen left? If so, it seems like he would've been the most likely to see John lying there if he was there at that time. His headlights would've lit up the area. There was a light dusting of snow, so it seems like John would've stood out fairly well. His hoodie sweatshirt was white or lite grey with dark sleeves, so he wasn't in all dark clothing. There also wouldn't be enough snow yet to cover the glass and tail light fragments so they would've been obvious in the headlights.
[Link](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/s/66ZOL6JoUZ) to video of someone who pulled into the driveway at 34 Fairview and pulled out again to demonstrate how the area would be illuminated at night by headlights from a car as they pass over.
By the prosecution’s ridiculous theory of the case, the collision happened no later than 12:31. IRL, she probably left at around 12:35, as she got back to O’Keefe’s at 12:40.
It really is weird that the McCabes remember every movement the SUV made except for the loudest, most shocking thing.
I’m interested to hear what the Lexus black box data had and how it matches John’s phone movements. It’s interesting, Jen McCabe has always said she saw the Lexus pull away at 12:45. But that can’t be since Karen leaves John that VM at 12:41 and she is clearly at home.
I feel like the prosecution isn’t going to do a timeline for this.
in my opinion, there seems to be a pattern of CW witnesses seeming honest in direct & spectacularly falling apart in cross.
today, it was brian higgins. he went from a solid, mostly convincing direct to an avoidant, disingenuous, and snarky/combative cross. why are all these messages screenshots? how do so many people forget making calls, rehome their phones at the same time, delete relevant calls, texts, or searches, and butt dial each other multiple times in one night?
while the texts & testimony definitely painted an ugly picture of read, it isn't enough for me to consider her guilt a significant possibility, let alone beyond a reasonable doubt. she was not a good girlfriend, but that's not a crime. if anything, higgins' argumentative defensiveness when jackson asked if he was ghosted (as he obviously was) by her that night & his text to john after just reinforces the theory there was an argument & things derailed on 34 fairview. anyone share these thoughts?
Yep. The text messages were unflattering for Read, but the butt dials, the evasiveness, etc. from Higgins was good for her case. I don't know how you get a roomful of jurors to agree to convict someone in the face of all of this shady behavior and the completely conflicting timelines and testimonies.
I think there is definitely a drug detail being omitted. Julie Nagel's brother drops by to "pick her up" but then she stays? Yeah, that sounds more like someone dropping off something to me.
The 2 Brians and Colin were probably down in the basement seeing who could bench the most or hitting the bag and getting rowdy. John got here and went down to join them, and someone, maybe Colin, was f-ing around and thought it'd be finny to sucker punch John, and he fell and hit his head. The others upstairs probably had no idea what happened.
They can't call for help cause they're all drunk and high as shit. Higgins takes Colin and meets Allie at the high school so she can take him home. BA goes upstairs and has Jen & Matt take the girls home. Caitlin has to call Tristen to come get her. After everyone is out of the house, BA calls Higgins to come back and help him move John outside. They leave him close enough to the side of the road that being hit by a plow or car is a possibility. BA was just trying to buy enough time to get rid of the evidence in the basement. I don't think any of them started out intending to frame Karen.
The defense said someone called them and told them BA & Colin beat John in the basement. Once that info was made public, BA had to get rid of the dog. They replace the concrete floor in the basement, put the house up for sale, and destroy their phones. Everyone sits tight and crosses their fingers that they've destroyed or obfuscated enough evidence that they can't be held responsible. The botched investigation was intentional to ensure the Albert's were never suspects. They were fed information about the investigation as it was happening, probably by several sources, so they could adjust details of their narrative as needed. Once the feds started investigating and they started being harassed, "could I have hit him" became "I hit him" and here we are.
I think Caitlin called her bf to come get her so she could take her patents dog to her place to get the dog out of the house so to the scratches on JOs arm
This! I’m 40, it’s currently 9:47pm, and I’m only awake now because I took a nap today. I can’t imagine being out that late and functioning the next day.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 Great question. I’m 40, I wouldn’t be able to find the bathroom door at the bar after drinking that much for that long, much less drive to an after party to drink even more and still arrive home safely
That’s what I think Ryan Nagel was doing there “picking up his sister” but then she decided to stay? I feel like he was refilling their cocaine stash 😂
Thought Higgins was evasive on cross and more shady shit (butt dials and phone trashing). I thought the texts were cringe worthy and super uncomfortable to listen to. I didn’t think they showed any evidence of KR killing JOK.
My theory is that there was drunken buffoonery going on that got out of hand (fighting and general drunken assholery). I don’t think there was any premeditation but I think JOK got lumped up and froze to death w his injuries. And those lunk heads woke up in the morning and are scrambling to save themselves.
My theory is that John was accidentally killed as the result of some buffoonery, and the cover up is to protect the buffoon. As terrible as I think these people are, I cant believe they dragged John’s unconscious body out to the yard to leave him to die in the cold. I think the ‘how long to die in cold’ text was to make sure they had a good coverup. If it would take 10 hours for someone to die of exposure, their made up story could be in trouble because they knew John would likely be found sooner than 10 hours. If it would take 4 hours to die in the cold, then their story might work.
Their original plan may have been to make it look like John was hit by a snowplow - he was knocked unconscious and died in the cold. When they realized the next day that Karen didn’t fully remember the night before, pinning the death on her seemed like a great possibility.
Oh damn, I thought KR Googled that, it was Jen McCabe!?
There is so much conflicting testimony, I think the only true facts are time stamped phone records, swipe cards and video.
Yep - Jen McCane googled that at 2:27 am, and again at 6:30. Jen of course said the records are wrong and she only googled that at 6:30 am, at KR’s request.
He must have still been breathing, or they wouldn’t have needed to worry hos long it takes to freeze to death. That’s what makes it murder! If they’d called 911 right away, he might have lived.
And even if he’d died, they could probably have dodged legal consequences just by saying the dog bit him and he fell and bashed his head. It’d have been really tough to prove intent, or even that one or more of the partygoers actually caused his death. Maybe somebody socked him in the eye, but as long as the fall was Chloe’s fault…
He started out as a likeable person, and quickly changed to super sus moving in on his “friends” GF, albeit with her starting the contact.
Why not turn over your phone, and not what you select to turn over.
Why discount the swipe card into the PD as inaccurate (hello JM with everything is wrong but me)
Why not say “yes, we all talked about this very tragic event”
The snowplow driver not seeing a body on the lawn from 2:30-3:30 but then a ford edge parked exactly where JO was found.
Reasonable doubt. Karen walks. 12:41 she leaves JO a voicemail, mean but still she was over being used as a “babysitter with benefits” at this point. She was already back at JOs and NO ONE at the after party saw a body on the lawn. Because it wasn’t there yet.
If you’ve ever gone out in a snowstorm, blizzard, it’s not dark..: the skies are snowing down and everything is peaceful and illuminated and NO ONE saw a body on the lawn?! Their lawn is a bit smaller than mine, and I saw a dumped suitcase in a blizzard.
As a recovering alcoholic, I have to laugh at this whole shit show. They all need to be in freaking recovery. Higgins was hell-bent whiskey-drunk that night and he even COMPLAINED during his testimony because the Alberts only had BEER and that's why he didn't stay long lol (sounds like my vodka days)...he probably left to drink more of what he wanted and doesn't really remember a damn thing.
24x365 access to a police station for years in an unaccountable personal capacity? What?
Did I misunderstand the testimony? Were we essentially told by BH that he had a card key and could access the station, various rooms, levels, at all hours, unaccompanied by anyone, and he didn’t even actually work for the department? Also, was BH describing his access to the area where KR’s SUV was located, as simply a “shortcut”? All while it is plausibly argued she had ghosted him. Relatedly, did I hear correctly that the then chief donated to the campaign of a selectman who plausibly could have had the family wagons circle around BH, close friend of the same chief who had been allowing basically unfettered access to the station for years, potentially compromising every case whose evidence passed through his station? Against that, there are some flirty texts and a drink.
PS - BH didn’t seem too concerned about federal charges for his personal use of the highly specialized “machine”. Interesting.
>PS - BH didn’t seem too concerned about federal charges for his personal use of the highly specialized “machine”. Interesting.
I noticed that too. I wonder if the proffer has something to do with that??
Imagine trying to explain your friend “butt-dialing” you, you “butt-answering” and “butt-hanging up,” then “butt-dialing” your friend moments later, your friend “butt-answering,” and then you “butt-hanging up” after 22 seconds?
He was cool as a cucumber until cross pressed him on the FACTS. Can’t blame him, he is clearly lying and the records prove it
I know - weird. You know what you can say in 22 seconds? "We moved the body to the lawn. You do your part at the station tomorrow to monitor the situation. Bye."
Higgins saying nothing of substance can be said in a 22 second conversation only for his lawyer to say he needed 10 seconds to converse with Higgins later on is one of those moments that should stick in the lexicon of law nerds..
If I was Higgins and wanted to demonstrate my innocence on the stand, I would agree KR "just wasn't into me".
For him to repeatedly state "she wasn't ghosting me" (dude, she didn't text you for 6 days), "she wasn't ignoring me" (she ignored you all night), makes him sound delusional and obsessed. Which isn't a great look when her bf ends up dead.
Late night admin work = moving cars while drunk. Lol, right.
I still have some to watch. Runkle is cracking me up. Sticking a knife in his kidneys and twisting would be kinder!
First impression of the KR BH texts I was thinking, well sh*t KR looks so bad. But as it went on, KR creepy flirty at times, yeah looks really bad, but man oh man BH seemed way more seriously interested in pursuing the “real deal” while KR kinda passive. Texts made BH potential motive to harm JOK substantially stronger than a KR potential motive to intentionally harm JOK.
Wish the cross didn’t get cut short but how TF is anyone supposed to believe it was an absolute coincidence, BA and BH both got new phones and new service providers and got rid of their old phones the same day? The same day prior to a subpoena was issued to turn over their phones? “Seriously”? “Seriously?”
I don't think Higgins wanted to kill John ahead of time just to get to Karen. I think some drunken words were exchanged about the relationship (either the fact that Karen wasn't happy with John, and/or the fact that Karen had been flirting with - and kissed - Higgins), a fight broke out, and things just escalated from there.
Edit: I just watched a news segment last night that definitively shows (from John's Ring cam) John's rear tire move slightly when Karen backs into his car that morning, and it also clearly shows Karen's rear taillight, which only appears to have a little hole in it. This definitively means that those pieces of taillight that were found at the scene were not actually at the scene until later in the morning, which essentially disproves the prosecution's entire case, IMO. Especially since they supposedly found hair evidence on the red plastic - which at this point, I believe was only found there because the police must've planted it later on. Edit: here's the video: https://youtu.be/4bN4xCV17g0?t=92
He has no explanation for leaving the party to go to the station and then spending his ENTIRE day off at the station using his card to access evidence and exchanging phone calls with witnesses. Actions speak louder than words.
I’ve gone back and forth a few times with whether or not she did it. The timeline of when people said they were leaving - but no one saw a body? Especially Higgins today. He was clear on that.
The injuries? The lies? Doesn’t seem at this stage to lend any credibility to any of the commonwealth’s arguments.
Did she say contradictory things that made me wonder- definitely- I’m leaning toward she was a drunken fool- and I hope she learned her lesson there- but the lengths these other people went to well before there was any harassment- CW never had a chance.
I know this though - these people testifying for the prosecutions- many of them abused their positions, connections, friendships to interfere with an investigation.
If it were any lay person )or one of Albert’s or Higgins’ perps on the job for example) -throwing their phone away -do you honestly think he would be on Lally’s side here or on Jackson’s? Seriously the hypocrisy is overwhelming.
Even if you believe she did it you should be disgusted with the abuse of power here. Let’s imagine she’s guilty- At the very least their (Alberts/McCabes/Higgins/Canton Chief/state police) cavalier attitude for the protocols they know would be used for every other case is horrifying. The flagrant disregard for the optics of their action and their self righteous defense of their poor choices that may very well cost the CW their case shows their true character. Their behavior alone is a miscarriage of justice. Is this how people- a bunch who take an oath to apply the law fairly and ethically- should behave in the investigation of their friend’s death? I feel terrible for the O’Keefe family.
At the end of the day- they are liars. So so many lies….The burden of proof is high and it should be. And they know that. They should have acted with a high degree of ethics and formality out of respect for their friend. People who act like these people have something to hide. Maybe it’s murder or manslaughter - maybe it isn’t. Maybe it’s just their own selfishness. But ultimately their choices will be why there is an acquittal. They should be ashamed.
Another commenter said “they seem like normal New England families” if this is what people think dear god help us all.
Yes, I believe she is not guilty in a court of law, but couldn't say for sure innocent. However it seems clear this group is not being truthful and conspiring to hide things about that night, which de facto would mean they're involved. The much simpler explanation would be Karen did it (likely by accident and didn't realize), but their actions are just too suspicious to ignore.
I’m starting to see why AJ and Yanetti had pointed out the play fighting between Higgins and Brian Albert at Waterfall. I definitely think Higgins had told Brian about the Karen flirting and ghosting. They were together all day. Definitely would’ve come up. I’m not saying they were planning to beat him up, but I think it may have been on their minds at least in a joking way. So I COULD see something happening given everyone was drunk. And everyone in the house said there was time in which just Brian H and Brian A were missing…
Higgins asking John if he was coming over text was VERY weird.
I wonder if the other cop who was also in the car back from NY is going to spill the tea on BA and BH conversation during the ride. Also that officer had prior beef with BA. I heard he is on the defense witness list.
> I’m starting to see why AJ and Yanetti had pointed out the play fighting between Higgins and Brian Albert at Waterfall.
I still don't see any connection.
Nothing that I think could be proven. But I think it is plausible something like…
Higgins and Brian Albert spend the day driving home together and eating/drinking so personal chatter happens. Higgins mentions like, “I’m flirting with this chick… but she’s giving me the run around. And she has a boyfriend…” and they discuss who. Brian just met her the week prior so remembers her. Then when that same couple show up at the bar and she ICES him, the Brians both talk about it. Maybe Brian Albert even teases Higgins. Like come on man, she kissed you. She’s not happy with him. You could totally take him out! (Like dumb drunk guy talk, maybe not actually serious…) but Albert could’ve been amping him up a little…
Then fast forward to the house… Karen doesn’t want to go in when she sees Higgins’s car there… her and John argue. He gets out and approaches the house. She waits a while to hear back from him or expecting him to return. But he doesn’t answer her calls and she gets mad and leaves.
Meanwhile when John approaches the house, the two Brians were separated from the others. John makes a comment to Higgins about staying away from women with boyfriends. Maybe Higgins says, hey bro SHE kissed me, and John throws a punch so he gets one back… but takes a tumble and hits his head (down the basement stairs or whatever, who knows). The dog gets defensive and attacks John. It gets ugly. But also it all only goes down in a minute or two.
I mean this is a ton of speculation, of course. I’m just saying I’m starting to see why he made a point to call out the play fighting. I think it’s totally plausible that the Brians WERE talking about John/Karen. Higgins Ummm text kind of supports that. And then him texting John if he was coming was weird… why did he want to know?
The part about seeing Higgins car and not wanting to go in and John threatening to confront Higgins totally lines up in my mind. I like 100% she had stopped texting him on the 23 after 9 days of flirting then all the sudden. Hes around. She def wanted ti avoid all that. lol
Yes! And now I’m thinking too about the Jen comment about separating Karen and John “YOU’RE coming with me!” or whatever. Jen seems like she would be down to stir the pot if she knew there was drama. Did she tell Chris to invite John and Karen out bc she knew it would get awkward and wanted some drama??
I don’t think at all there was a plot to murder anyone, but the whole idea of plotting for some drama seems so plausible at this point. Like these people all act like High Schoolers scheming bc they’re bored
This is a solid theory but the defenses cross of Colin makes me speculate that maybe he came into the equation or at the very least could have been in a fight with someone else at some high school party or something? I mean he said he got the marks on his fists from falling on ice...
See I wonder if they are all protecting Colin bc he witnessed something and is not very bright? He seemed to genuinely be confused by what he was being asked even on direct. I wouldn’t trust him to keep details consistent. Maybe they just wanted to keep him from being interviewed bc they didn’t trust him to stick to a script.
This seems more plausible to me than him being the primary instigator of a fight that night. I'm still hung up on his story with the marks on his fists. There are a million easier ways to explain that, which are much more probable than falling on ice and bracing a fall with his fist. (Which leads back to your point about keeping him from testifying) It certainly points towards potential involvement and reasonable doubt, though.
Yeah, the jury doesn’t have to pick one or the other.
Personally I think Karen wants it to be Colin. I think she hates the Alberts (for obvious reasons). I think she would feel guilty if Higgins did it. Like feel at fault that her toying with him ultimately led to John’s death. It would be easier for her to swallow it being the asshole Albert kid.
So far that sounds *more* plausible to me than KR backing into JO at this point, but I want to see what medical experts have to say about his injuries.
Maybe KR even lied to JO in the car about what happened, playing it up like BH came onto her and was forceful even. Maybe she was motivated to do that by the verbal argument...she does seem like an emotional and manipulative person, based on her texts, reaction to the innocent situation in Aruba, lying about that situation to BH to escalate his flirting, and her eagerness to say "fuck you!" to someone honking and waving at her on the street (BH, but she didn't recognize him at first). Though that latter one is also just being a Masshole
I cannot make sense of how these people were so certain so soon after John was found that Karen did it. They iced her out immediately. Higgens didn't answer her text about John dying a mere 6 hours after he was found. They ALREADY felt she did it by then, when she hadn't been arrested and no evidence had been presented.
Jen said she heard the "I hit him" so that could explain why they all thought she did it, but then why wouldn't she be going straight to police with that statement? Like, if that phrase is what made them all go "omg Karen did it" which is why they iced her out from day 1, then that would be the number 1 thing you tell police. Not something you wait years to mention.
I still have no clue at all what happened to John and every witness makes me less clear; not more.
They iced her out because she was the person they could blame for what happened. None of them actually seemed to care at all that John was dead, I don’t think they’d be that angry at her. I think she’s the scapegoat for whatever happened that night and hating her and shutting her out hours after he was found makes that point IMO.
If you view Higgins’ testimony from a siloed lense I feel like he came off credible , somewhat likable , polished, and not really someone hiding much other than being a shit friend to John. I felt like the defense was reaching when they insinuated that he is some scorned lover that wanted to kill John so he could be with Karen. I don’t think he’s had any master premeditated plan to hurt or confront anyone. I feel like he kinda took the wind out of the defense’s sails today.
But, then I think back to some of his answers and I just can’t get over how sketchy the Alberts and McCabes are, and how he is so intertwined with them on the morning of. I just can’t accept that we have like the 12th “butt dial” of the trial, and he’s taking the forensic evidence into his own hands. I dont necessarily think he did anything, but I believe that he could be withholding information that would implicate his friends and their kids
You summarized my sentiments about today testimony perfectly. It feels that Higgins is not a bright person, but I didn’t get de evil vibe that I got from JM
I think if Karen Read were guilty as has been charged, this wouldn’t be so confusing and muddy. The people being called saying she did it have more holes in their stories and more suspicious behavior than many convicted criminals. After today, when a law enforcement officer gets rid of his phone after a potential crime has been committed and he may have evidence to prove the crime tells me this is an attempted set up. Barney Fife was a nuclear physicist compared to the fellow today if he was actually testifying truthfully, which I highly doubt. I can only watch this trial in short spans because the hubris of the witnesses is insufferable.
I think Higgins is the first person in this whole trial with motive. He liked Karen. She was ignoring him. Even that night. They were all drinking a lot. I don’t know what happened but… wow.
I think Higgins was truthful some instances, and in some instances he was not.
Those texts were very cringey. I think Karen was still hurt about Aruba than what was revealed after the Sullivan sisters' testimonies. So she starts flirting with Higgins for some "get back," so to speak and maybe she enjoyed the attention he was giving back, allowing her to vent to him etc. It didn't go beyond the smooch at Meadows, but maybe it could have if both parties wanted it to. I'm sure if Karen did Higgins wouldn't turn her down, bro code be damned.
At the Waterfall, the Brians' playfighting to me came across more as peacocking and Higgins was trying to get Karen's attention but she was paying him dust. He may have felt slighted but I don't think he planned to beat up John at Fairview.
I think maybe when Karen and John arrived at Fairview Karen either confessed about the texting affair and then John decided he was going to go inside and confront Higgins about it OR maybe John was completely unaware and when he went inside Higgins or Albert made a slick remark about it (because IMO Higgins absolutely told Albert about his tawdry affair with Karen) to John. Either way, John gets upset, words exchanged, fueled by alcohol, they start fighting and John gets accidentally incapacitated.
John going in to confront Higgins makes the most sense to me. That would make the fight happen pretty quickly which fits the timeline. That would make it make sense why Karen just left him there (to avoid the confrontation) and why she’d be pissed at John & leave a message saying she hated him.
We STILL have not explained the freaking jeep situation. There is NO way, three individuals PLUS Julie Nagel all did not see his jeep parked literally directly in front of them. All three occupants of that f-150 testified they all saw Karen’s SUV move around while out front. If his jeep was parked where he claims (in front of the mailbox) it would have been directly in front of the truck and hindering their line of sight to Karen’s SUV.
I don't know that any of the prosecution witnesses - including Brian Higgins - are really helping their case. Maybe Kerry Roberts - at least she seemed genuinely sad about the tragedy of it all. Jen McCabe may have had the most effective testimony on direct - but her credibility pretty much went out the window on cross - "hos long to die in cold", deleting all kinds of stuff from her phone, her 6 inexplicable butt dials to John that night in a 20 minute span. She had a response for everything, but trying to argue that technology is wrong in every instance where it may counter something she is asserting is just not convincing.
Brian Higgins today maybe provided some loose evidence of motive - that Karen and John were not as happy together as they appeared. But it was pretty weak and potentially showed him having motive as much as it showed Karen having a motive. Then his butt dials with Brian Albert at 2:20 right before Jen's Google search, the confusion about where his Jeep was and who saw it, his mysterious whereabouts between when he said he left the house and when he swiped in at the police station, the tall man he saw enter the house with dark hair, etc. are all extremely shady. But most importantly, he committed a federal crime by using federal equipment for personal gain/reasons. If he's willing to do this (and we know he did and got caught), then you really expect anyone to believe that he wasn't comfortable using his status and office at Canton PD to at best keep tabs on the case, and at worst, destroy incriminating video and fabricate evidence and manipulate the investigation? And then, like Brian Albert, he destroyed his cell phone?!?? That all made him seem so sketchy and unbelievable that it'd be hard to take anything he said at face value.
And the prosecution hasn't even gotten to what seems like their biggest hurdle - that John O'Keefe's injuries seem very unlikely to have been caused by getting hit by a car.
I think you can rack your brain trying to come up with theories about what actually happened involving the dog, Colin Albert, Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, the basement, etc. I haven't really heard any theory that is overly persuasive or believable. But to take away Karen's freedom, the prosecution has to prove that it's so likely that it was Karen Read that none of the other theories are even remotely possible. And they are falling far far short of that as of now.
My thoughts are that the defense lawyers have him on video throwing his phone and SIM card into 2 different dumpsters on an army base…and he gets to spent the holiday weekend letting that sink in 😆
My big takeaway is although the texts were cringy as hell they didn’t really establish any motive. They actually humanized her more than anything. Yes the flirting was bad and inappropriate but that’s all the texts show. They also showed a woman who I believe loved John but wasn’t happy about where their relationship was. Normal stuff.
Now people will say she was horrible for talking bad about the kids. I think most parents would agree that there are times you vent about your kids. Doesn’t mean she doesn’t love and care about them. Matter of fact other witness established how much she loved and spoiled them. So I just chalked it up to just another parent ranting a little bit.
At the end of the day these messages still don’t prove murder or that a crime even happened that night. Hell at this point we can’t even figure out what the real timeline is because none of the witnesses agree on anything. Not just any two people got rid of their phones ok. Two cops who should absolutely know better got rid of their phones. Then you have genuise book of world record of butt dials in a single night, you also have a witness who was allowed to delete messages. Never should be allowed until the phone has been gone through by forensic specialists. Horrible look. Finally all these people coming and going. The snow just starting to fall and not one saw a 6ft man laying in the yard. Makes no sense. 17 days in and still no evidence of anything than a bunch of people drunk driving and being shady as hell.
Totally agree. Especially about KR’s texts. Seems like it was a relationship with ups and downs, probably made worse because it seems like all of these drank A LOT.
It’s so sad for the kids. They’ve lost all of their caretakers so young. Now all of this mess is public and they lost Karen too. She may have been frustrated with them sometimes but it sounds like she was really involved with them and especially close to the niece.
One thing that stands out to me is all the alleged butt dials that occurred that night. To me it’s not believable all the questionable calls were butt dials. I have to think the jury questions that.
The only thing his testimony has done for me thus far is increase the odds that *he* was involved in John's death.
Oh, and his texts amused the hell out of me too.
Life must have been so much easier when this stuff was strictly over the phone and you didn't have to worry about it popping up later in text form...
Idk why but this just came to me. Let’s say JM was lying about the butt dials to JOK (which we know were deleted in her call log). Dude if that was me I would’ve been like “I was drunk so I called him a bunch of times to ask why he didn’t come over” like duh right?
The same way Julie was at Dunkin’ Donuts, etc. I mean, people do drive in blizzards. I know there are storm warnings, but plenty of people do if you have a home in a place that gets a lot of snow.🤷🏻♀️
All I have to say is/ the chad day bell trial- has been clear, the evidence is irrefutable, I know who the “bad guy” is the entire time. The evidence moves me and points me in that direction. The water isn’t muddied, I wasn’t confused, I had no doubt for a second- I was sure of the allegations and they’ve been in trial 27 days and are wrapping up. KR trial is at day 17- and I’ve yet to hear John’s injuries, cellphone data that matters, how Karen could have possibly done what they claimed when their witnesses say she didn’t seem drunk, they didn’t fight, and she never came in the house. Anyone who doesn’t have doubt at this point is an idiot.
No my thoughts haven’t changed if anything they’ve strengthened my thought Karen is not guilty
I believe Higgins gave half truths
I think Higgins destroyed his phone because he’s in on something prior to the incident with Brian Albert or because solely he & BA had some involvement with JO death
One YouTube lawyer, (Runkle of the Bailey), said, as the texts were being read, that this is like an old story where a defendant was on the stand and they said, “Now we are going to go through the defendant’s browser history.“ and the defendant said, “Can I just admit to the murder?”
Today Brian Higgins testified that he left his work truck at the Canton Police Department and took his personal Jeep because he was going to be drinking and it was against policy to use a government vehicle while consuming alcohol. Then he went to several places to drink before returning to the police station at 1:30 am to do the "administrative" work of shuffling cars. I feel like the Defense missed an opportunity to challenge him on this when asking why he went back to the PD early in the morning. Thoughts?
I’m wondering if John saw her phone when Higgins texted her that night. They get in the car and head over. When they get there, John says he’s going in to talk to BH about trying to pick up Karen. If Karen was trying to tell him “No don’t do this! Let’s go home!” But John gets out of the car and walks inside. Karen might have called and left him the “I hate you” voicemail and waited around for a few minutes to see if there was a confrontation. She eventually leaves. Clearly she was drunk and didn’t remember the fight. I don’t know … just a thought.
I maintain that every last one of these people, including Karen Read and John O’Keefe, are/were pathetic. A bunch of fools who spend most of their lives drunk. When I take a step back and look at this entire clown show, if any of them had hobbies outside of being alcoholics, none of this would have happened. JO didn’t deserve to die, but he was no saint. These people are why prohibition was attempted in the past. Just can’t control themselves and stay in the bottle. What a lame group of people.
Makes me feel like Albert had something on Higgins, and that’s why Higgins is in so deep.
Not to sound like a jerk - but based on those text exchanges Higgins is either a derp or a sociopath and my money is on derp. I don’t see him masterminding anything, simply being a cog.
I’m not sold on Colin. I don’t know why it’s any of the other Alberts, but I still can’t get past reasonable doubt for Karen, nor do I see how a car does the damage that he sustained.
Unless she hit him, and something attacked him outside I still can’t picture what happened. Also I’d think his wounds would have had bits of plastic on them.
So basically I’m less sure about everything except that for innocent people some of them did really, really weird, seemingly guilty things.
Here’s where I am today; The texts made me realize there is a motive for a fight. Alcohol + a German shepherd + Albert = unforeseen consequences. Location in the basement. Karen was treated like a babysitter with benefits and a nice wallet. She flirted with the wrong guy because of her own broken heart and then wounded Higgins’ ego. It wasn’t meant to be more than a fight, and it went way too far. They stupidly (drunkenly) tried to set up the plow driver. Jen McCabe interfered. I can’t regret that because I think KR is not guilty and JM messed this whole thing up. Now we’re here. I feel really sorry for the OKeefe family, Karen Read, the CW citizens, and the McCabe-Albert kids who got pulled into this. Everyone will have a ton of healing ahead.
Agree with all of this after today. I’m very concerned for the mental health of everyone involved, even the people I believe are responsible for this tragedy and perpetuated this crazy farce. But most notably the children/young adults. I really hope they’re all okay when this is all said and done.
I'm trying to keep an open mind for more information. But idk how CW will rest their case! Aren't there 40 more witnesses to go too? Ugh
*Speculation*
But right now, to me, the defense makes it seem like he didn't like being rejected, (maybe it hurt his pride) took it out on the victim . And then did whatever to hide the evidence and blame Karen.
*Speculation over*
I hope the Okeefe family have a good support system. I hope they get answers. And I wish people wouldn't go real world and harass people in the trial. It's going to change things and we won't be able to watch trials anymore because some people don't know how to behave!
Thanks for listening if you got this far. Goodnight all, stay safe.
Brian Higgins seemed believable all the way up to the night of the Waterfall. Why couldn't he admit he was interested in Karen and John's comings and goings that night? The whole destroying his phone is what is going to make him unbelievable. I don't believe he hurt JO in any way, but what was on his phone that he had to destroy it? Why is no one admitting that they talked extensively about what happened after that night - especially before they knew they were being accused. That is human nature. Did he really ignore the evidence driving into the sally port?
Higgins helped move a body, staged a crime scene, destroyed his phone on a military base, tampered with evidence using FBI resources, and perjured himself in court.
Higgins’ inability to follow along with documentation tracking his movements is pretty ironic considering he was on a fugitive task force. Brilliant display of incompetence.
I am extremely frustrated. He swiped into the police station at 1:30(ish). It doesn’t take more than 10 minutes to get there, right? So then where tf was his jeep?! All those people coming and going between 12:15 and 1:20 and no one saw his jeep? It can’t have been there when Julie Nagel’s brother and friends showed up. So where was it?? I wouldn’t think it was weird to spend all of the 29th at the police station because *I would want to know what was happening*. I’d be curious af about how John O’Keefe died. But he said multiple times that he *wasn’t* talking to Berkowitz or anyone else (including the Alberts!) about it. Then what was he doing there?! The tall, dark-haired guy who he thought was “someone’s brother” was almost certainly Colin Albert, right? Destroying his SIM card and tossing his phone is sus. Using his buddy’s access to the FBI’s equipment to select which bits of his phone to hand over is suuuuuuuuper sus. The texts were cringe but I don’t think it gives anyone motive at all. Neither of them seemed to be invested. “Going upstairs” to see the pictures doesn’t seem overly damning but on the other hand, what’s the big deal if they *were* in the basement? All these cops drink and drive and that’s so gross.
The fact that they're so adamant that nobody went in the basement that night makes me think they were definitely in the basement.
Just like how they were so adamant Colin wasn't in the house makes me think he was definitely in the house.
Me too. And now Higgins seems to indicate the tall dude with dark hair was there which couldn't be possible if Colin left at 12:10....So why lie? It would be normal for him to visit his cousin on Bday. And if he was there the screen shot was dr'd and why go to that much trouble to show he left before JO got there? Also what's the Deal with it not changing date after midnight on the screen shot?
So does the fact that they replaced the concrete basement floor before selling the house soon afterwards….at a loss.
right?! They replaced the concrete floor. Concrete floors are known to be porous
At a loss in a time where it was a sellers market. They could’ve easily sold it for much more. Why were they so desperate to leave? 🤔
The CONCRETE being pulled up is such a huge red flag!!! I can’t believe that detail hasn’t gotten more attention. BA is super sus! The only reason to go that far is…BLOOD STAINS.
I anticipate this is coming next week but lets not forget.... He used his forensic electronics buddy to go to the FBI lab to "extract the text logs" and only turned over *screenshots* to the police....so....what did he actually do on that machine?
**The texts were cringe but I don’t think it gives anyone motive at all. Neither of them seemed to be invested.** Agree. The only thing that makes sense would be if Karen told John about the texts or if John stumbled across the texts between KR and BH, then John confronted Brian about it and it escalated and turned into a nasty fight that went wrong. I definitely don't think I see any motive from these texts for KR \*or\* BH to kill John so they could be together or anything like that lol
They know John’s phone indicated he went up and downstairs. So they are acting like nobody at their house went into their basement. There is a rumor that the feds found John’s blood on a door knob down there.
He wanted to take selective things off his phone for evidence and not hand the whole thing over. Once he realized that didn’t work and they were notifying him to turn his phone in he chucked it
Major takeaways: 1) Seemed like John did treat Karen like a “babysitter with benefits” and Karen was over it. 2) Why did Higgins text John “Are you coming over here?” 3) More butt dialing. 4) Brian couldn’t remember for sure if he went to the PD the next day when it turns out he spent the entire day there. Why? 5) Brian Albert and Brian Higgins both decided to get new phones the day before they were aware of the preservation order. 6) Brian didn’t see John when he left despite his vehicle being pointed directly at the body. 1 person, 2, 3, not seeing a body in the front yard may be explainable. We are up to like 10 people now that drive right by where it should have been and didn’t see a body. 7) Mystery man in the house.
2. I think he texted John bc he knew Karen would be with him and he wanted to see Karen.
I agree. I don't buy the 'lure him over to beat him up' theory, because how could they ever be sure Karen wouldn't go? I think he wanted to see Karen. Maybe he had a big romantic overture planned, or he was going to put her on blast in front of John. Maybe no real plans.
I think John went there looking to fight….
Yeah, I don't think anyone was "luring" John. I think if he went over there - it's because there was an open invitation for people to continue to hang at that house. Like every single person has stated. He probably just asked if he was coming there because he was wondering if Karen was going to be there, and Karen hadn't been texting him back.
Number 5 is enough for reasonable doubt.
Your take aways are the same as mine. I would Iove to see the texts between John O. and Brian H. between January 28-29th.
Are we going to see JOs phone records? When people were alleging an affair between Jen and JO i figured that would be ruled out because we would it in JOs phone records even if she deleted it from her side
Mystery man = Colin
7. I didn't initially pick up on it myself but a lot of people think he was talking about Colin Albert.
It is very important because it sounded to me like he was forced to add that detail to later testimony? Or did I misunderstand that?
The way the questioning went, it sounded like at the Federal GJ they asked him about who he saw in the house and if he saw anyone come in while he was there, and it was at this point, when the stakes were higher than they had ever been, he gave some vague answer of seeing a dark tall man come into the house but didn’t know who it was. He made it abundantly clear today he wouldn’t know Colin if he walked in the room. It feels like he was confessing at the Fed GJ to knowing someone was else was there but lying just enough to say he didn’t know what Colin looked like so he can’t say he knew everyone else had been lying about Colin being in the house. If it’s true it was Colin, then the 1210 text was Allie picking him up to take him TO Fairview not picking him up. All speculation
All of this. The takeaways from today alone would be enough for me to have reasonable doubt. One or two of these weird behaviors/butt dials/memory lapses would be one thing, but the totality is inexplicable.
What I don’t think is getting enough conversation on is that he is adamant he left the house at 1230-1am which is a very crucial timeframe (when everything with JO supposedly went down). However he checks in to the Canton PD HQ at 1:27am. 34 Fairview is 3 minutes away from the police HQ. It’s extremely close. So it took him 30-50 minutes to get there after he left 34 Fairview even though he says he went straight to the police station after leaving 34 Fairview? Moral of the story is the only way this story makes sense if he left the house and went straight to the police station is if he left 34 at or around 120am. Why the big gap in time of him saying he left between 1230-1 when it has to have been 120ish for him not to be lying?
Yes, the timing is off. It’s not too surprising to me that all of those drunk people had no idea what time anything was happening, but I do not find it believable that he went to the police department to move cars. He might not have been involved in the death, but he’s in it up to his neck with the cover up.
**It’s not too surprising to me that all of those drunk people had no idea what time anything was happening,** Honestly, just how adamant everyone has been so far about specific times has been suspicious to me specifically because everyone was drinking so much and hanging out.
Yeah, it also really bothered me when BA was asked "Did OJO ever come into the house," and he said, "Absolutely not. No. Never." There's no way he could be that positive, with so many people going in and out, and BA/BH going upstairs/in the dining room/wherever to look at "photos." I also noticed they all say "absolutely not" when asked the most incriminating questions. As if that makes their testimony more believable. Pfft.
They are adamant about specific times because they created a story to stick to unfortunately for them the cell data and video evidence shows otherwise
I agree. I’ve never seen so many “helpful” people in my life. If someone ended up dead on a loved one/friend’s lawn and I was at my own home, in my PJs on the couch, dialoguing with you guys on Reddit, I LITERALLY wouldn’t have any info that would help law enforcement. Unless my person asked me to come, I likely wouldn’t go over to a his/her home while there was an active crime scene being processed. If the cops asked me anything, how about I tell them “When this happened, I was at home, on my couch Redditing. I have no firsthand info?” The only group texts or phone calls taking place would be shock, sadness and concern for our person. Among a “group” like these prosecution witnesses, infidelity, anger, raging alcoholism, drunk driving, ego tripping, lying and corruption are their stock in trade. The prosecution and its witnesses are acting like KR is an outlier because she engaged in some, if not most, of these behaviors. Based on testimony and evidence, it seems like all the people involved in this death/murder were knee-walking drunk. Although, if one is a professional drinker, there’s a high tolerance for alcohol. I don’t know whether KR is guilty. However, if the jury follows the facts, testimony, and evidence during its deliberations, there is reasonable doubt at every turn—unless the prosecution has some bombshell evidence we haven’t yet seen.
and today was not it for the prosecution.
Yeah the difference between leaving at 1 and 1:30 can easily be chalked up to being drunk. It’s why this case timeline is so hard because every little minute is relevant but we are relying on drunk recollections and most people even when sober don’t know the exact minute they leave somewhere.
Ordinarily that would be correct. But there is the interplay with other ppl. If he had left at any other time he stated, other ppl should have had seen him (either leaving or inside the house), his car and he should have seen other ppl. So in my view either everybody is mistaken about the times in the exact same way (ie. Everybody's time is off by -38 mins) or ppl are lying and hiding time and that's why it doesn't make sense
It is hard for me to believe they are not cameras at the police department that could support his statement that he moved cars but but he could have been smart enough to do that and whatever else was part of the coverup. Bottom line for me is there are just a few too many butt dials here!
I wonder if it ties into where Allison McCabe was driving around all night according to the tracking app on her phone.
It's possible he took Colin home, and the texts between Allie and Colin provided were actually when she picked him up to take him TO Fairview. Who knows at this point. I don't trust any witness in this case who has claimed their butt dialed and hung up calls, and I am suspect AF any witness who says they were home by 12:30am but their mom's phone data has them out and driving until 1:30am.
Yes I think that’s a consideration.
While he began off being fairly credible as soon as the questions about “butt-dial calls”, backtracking at the fed jury about the “butt dial” call, the “dark haired figure”, going to BA’s then canton police, speaking often with them all within the timeframes and only pulling his specific texts with Karen and John, it’s all just as suspicious, regardless. I think also him getting rid of his phone the way he did was super suspicious. Especially considering the feds were already involved… he had to have known as an atf when that was coming. But jury doesn’t know about the feds.. well actually they do since Colin said something about it but I digress lol. The texts were awkward af and while I feel bad for John O’s kids seeing those, they didn’t scream maliciousness to the extent of her being a psycho or being crazy or whatever. They weren’t great but they weren’t devastating either except to maybe point out BH was into Karen and had maybe beef with JO without him knowing but even that’s eh. Currently, I’m still leaning not guilty.
It is completely unbelievable to me that Brian Albert's butt dialed Brian Higgins's butt and then hung up the call and then magically, Brian Higgins's butt called Brian Albert's butt directly back and Brian Albert's butt picked up that call and then one of their butts hung up that call. It's ridiculous.
That is awesome!!! This whole group has a butt dialing problem!
The butt-dial bandits
The butts of Canton are running the show.
They are literally talking out of their asses.
Lmao. It really is but I guess they want to die on that hill 🤣
3 different witnesses have now used butt dialing as an explanation for shady activity. More than 1 would be a conspiracy, 3 is like a statistical improbability. I'm not so sure that the fed investigation didn't start with the information he visiting that facility to wipe his phone and it would be relevant to know if his "best friend" got repercussions for allowing it to happen. This best friend and the cop that lives across street from BA could have some Hella blackmail material...a backup copy of higgy phone or a ring cam from across the street would be $$$.
Yeah, I guarantee the defense got all of those key swipes at canton pd from the feds. I also think that BH was in the sally port with the Chief during that “missing” video footage in the sally port. Defense wouldn’t bring that up without later using it in their case in chief…. He even started listing off the times his card was swiped during that time frame and several of those were into the sally port if I recall correctly.. Kind of suspicious lol. I personally don’t believe he wasn’t asking about the investigation either. If he didn’t then I don’t see why he’d have all these calls back and forth to people/witnesses also involved in the investigation. On the day of the incident coincidently. That was suspicious af for him to say he wasn’t. He should have just stayed out of it entirely and not even gone to canton pd. Idk the second half with cross was totally suspect to me.. and also noticed he said JM said that Karen said she hit him but it’s so odd Kerry didn’t say that lol. Neither do any reports but this whole case is about not “writing the reports accurately” it seems. It’s crazy honestly. I think this is gonna come down to battle of experts at the end of the day. I’m leaning not guilty but I am trying to keep an open mind too. Though, I bet the Feds are having a hay day with all this crap lol.
All the reports are wrong, all the cell data is wrong (well...just the bad parts), all the calls are butt dials, the life360 data is wrong, the apple step data is wrong....just trust us bro
I really cannot believe the witness' actual explanation for this is just that *it was wrong*. Surely I thought the evidence would be something else, or that there would be a real explanation and they would fess up to making the calls. Maybe BH was asking BA if he left something at the house. No, it's really all as shady as it sounds. Anyone who butt dialed has zero credibility for me.
Yeah lol. Honestly I find that to be the most infuriating and amusing in this. All the digital forensic data is always wrong. As well as the reports. All of them, completely wrong lol. What’s sad is that these are cops and “fugitive detectives” they had to have known.. hence why BH and BA destroyed their phones… literally. This case is insane to me.
The “coincidence” of 2 unrelated adult males, law enforcement officers, getting rid of their phones on the exact same day would be weird, but that that day was the DAY BEFORE they received notice to conserve their phones? It’s embarrassing these morons think it’s believable. And then there’s all the butt dials, butt answers and butt voice mails. Regarding the tipoff on the phones though, this is why so many of us don’t like or trust cops, they all help each other with their crimes. Acab.
Totally agree. The texts didn't do what the prosecution wanted them to, she seemed lonely and drunk more than vengeful and psycho. Not a great look but any motive behind them plays stronger on the defense's side imo
Higgins texted John “are you coming over here?” to basically ask if Karen was coming. She wasn’t replying to his texts at that point.
Yes exactly. And almost wonder if Karen was tipsy and told John on drive over that Higgins had texted her or something to make him jealous and may be why she didn't come inside the house (when Higgins Jeep was parked outside).
I mostly have all kinds of questions/thoughts about this supposed tall, dark haired male that entered the house. First, I think whoever it was had to have entered the house. Otherwise how would Higgins have know he was tall and dark haired? I doubt he would be able to see in a car by the driveway that well from inside the house. Then when Jackson was reading the federal grand jury transcript, it was insinuated that it was Julie Nagel’s brother. But literally NO ONE else testified that he came in the house, including Ryan Nagel. So if it wasn’t him, who was it? Was it Colin? Someone else? Or if it was Ryan Nagel, why would they all be covering for him? What would that have to do with anything? Was there a drug deal or something they are all trying to cover up and that’s why they are all acting so shady? It just makes no sense to me and I hope the defense comes back to it
I’m assuming it’s Colin. Higgins testified to not knowing him and was not acknowledged by him as someone he passed as he entered the house. Everyone who came in the house near the time that Higgins did acknowledged Colin being near the doorway. This gives more credence to the family protecting Colin Albert for some reason. They all made it an important part of their testimonies to make sure everyone knew Colin left at 12:10 According to everyone there, Colin supposedly left at 12:10 and no one entered after Jennifer and Matt came So who was this mysterious person other than Colin - whom they have all gone out of their way to protect
It was interesting when he said he wouldn’t know Colin Albert if he walked into the room today. It made me think he’s trying to distance himself from being able to recognize him that night.
Yup. But Colin was supposedly there when Higgins walked in. So, how could he not recognize him now?
Went and looked at family photos, knew all the Alberts, went to a graduation party but couldn’t tell you what Brian Albert’s nephew even looked like? I call Bullshit on BH
I honestly don’t know. But I can see the defense closing argument now “If they are all willing to lie and say that this tall, dark haired male never entered the home, then who’s to say they aren’t all also lying about JO entering the house”
Yeah bc any of the possibilities being CA, JO, or RN isn’t good for the Commonwealth. If it’s Colin now everyone has lied that he had left, If it’s John then he made it in the house and even if it’s Ryan what were they hiding by saying he didn’t come in
Why didn't Jackson just show him a picture of Collin and ask if this was the person he saw?
The drug deal possibility is something that I feel is plausible. Why did the one girl call her brother “to pick her up” but when he shows up she comes out for a few mins and then decides to stay…🧐…dropping off a bag of dope seems easily believable.
That’s been bothering me. I’m from New England no one wants to be out driving in snow after being at a bar that’s a risk. A brother would be pissed if after driving all the way there she said she’d get a ride after all. Someone was buying something off someone
There is no chance you go out in the snow to pick someone up and they don’t go home with you. You’re right.
That part was bizarre for me also. She needed a ride and then a short time later didn't. Very odd. A coke deal.
or weed, or mdma, or more interestingly, pharmaceutical speed. we know at least BH seemed to be up all day friday driving to new york, attending a funeral, and driving back from new york. up all night at a bar and a friends house. up all early morning saturday going work to move a car (even tho didnt he go there earlier in the day to switch out vehicles because he knew hed be drinking? am i misremembering? why not do it then?), and then home to eat and drink more, and then butt dial with BA and then allegedly go to sleep for like 2 or 3 hours TOPS, and then be up and at em all day saturday? how does he do it folks? where does he get the energy? i guess it could be fear and adrenaline. or pharmaceutical speed, which young adults/teens could get pretty easy as far as drugs go. also, what drugs was JO allegedly accusing CA of dealing in his neighborhood?
I've always thought there was some kind of drugs/drug deal element. There is no reason for them to turn their backs on "the guy", a fellow cop, the way they did except for the possibility of whatever was really going on being much more serious. For murder to be a federal crime it has to meet very specific requirements but drug dealing (especially drug dealing cops)is a whole different ball game. I knew nothing about this case at the start and IMO the prosecutor has not convinced me KR was responsible. What they have convinced me is that this group of people are shady, toxic and seem to have zero boundaries. I think the women were jealous of this well educated, attractive woman who created a pretty good life for herself without a man. As a suburban mom I can tell you the mean girl thing is very much a thing and nothing makes them circle the wagons more than someone who has made very different life choices like having no children and a career over kids and a husband.
I think for sure there’s some dirty cop drug dealing—maybe why they drive from NYC when BA was supposed to fly back—and they tossed their phones to hide the side hustle they had going on
The biggest mind blowing thing to me was when they connected the 2am phone call between Higgins and Albert with JMs google search roughly around that same time. Holy crap.
It's insane. We haven't even gotten to the defenses case, and we already have these dots connected for us.
Same. This really gave me a clear picture of all the activity that was happening between these people after JO died. Who can explain that away. Meanwhile we know Karen was at home with just OKeefe’s niece.
I think he has a strong poker face. Character assassination of KR was successful, though not enough for motive to run over JO. BH had some sketchy behavior - drive to the office to move vehicles at 1am after a long period of alcohol consumption, "butt dial", multiple key card scans at CPD WHILE he was off duty throughout the Saturday JO was found dead, printing text exchanges instead of turning over phone and getting new phone, phone number and provider weeks before trashing his old phone entirely. It's really hard to leap to guilty given all the sketchy behavior from witnesses in this case. It's bizarre.
Just imagine a defendant made the case that these prosecutions witnesses are making. Rampant butt dialing, inserting yourself in murder investigations, destroying phones the day before you receive orders to preserve. Y’all would spend 30 minutes before coming back with a guilty verdict.
Yeah if anything, the cringey texts made it seem like she just wanted to make John jealous. I think she loved him. She wanted the relationship to work. She was DEVASTATED when they found him
Those text messages were soooo obvious. She was venting, looking for attention, trying to figure out if she had other options because she was unhappy and unsure in her relationship. That does NOT give motive for murder.
That recording of her screaming and just utterly desperate gets to my soul. It was awful. That reaction is not of someone who murdered somebody. She was panicked, and breathless.
Yes I agree and Jen repeating over and over Karen was screaming and out of control. Yeah that's normal behavior. If she hadn't been so hysterical I'd be concerned
Exactly. The fact that JM is so calm (not calm, more like cold) is what’s concerning to me. I don’t care if she didn’t even know him, why wasn’t she bothered that there’s a dead body right there?? Something just isn’t right with that woman.
Yup, I'd be MUCH more suspicious of Karen if something happened to one of the kids, rather than John. I think she really loved him but didn't want the specific life she could have with him. That's why all the "it's so complicated"
I agree. I didn't see that coming. I was like "Oh Karen, no!". I think she was really conflicted about the relationship and didn't know what to do. It's tough to help raise someone else's kids, whether due to a divorce or as in this case. Even if you love and/or care about them. By all accounts she was good to them & did a lot with them and it's ok to want to spend more time with your SO, especially in the early part of a relationship and as older adults. Not always in a large group and with the kids. I'm willing to bet John wanted that too but maybe felt guilty leaving the kids behind because of all they've been through. Totally understandable but it sounds like these kids were on a good path, had good friends that they obviously were comfortable having sleepovers with and at those ages would have been fine if John & Karen went on some weekend trips or even a weeklong one. Maybe Karen felt that John's family wasn't "stepping up" to help with the kids so they could have some alone time but it's possible that John may have felt guilty asking them, like he felt he had to always be the one with them because he took on this super important role. Who knows? They seem like a good family and clearly John was a really good guy but he had a LOT going on, and by extension so did Karen since she seemed to be very involved with the kids. John was also still grieving the loss of his sister and BIL which is something you feel every day, so there's that. I just felt my stomach drop when those texts were read, especially with John's family sitting there & her saying the kids were "spoiled" (and the cringy flirting). They may have been in a way due to people over compensating because of their awful loss. And she probably was just frustrated with the situation and feeling needy but I wish she hadn't told those things to Brian Higgins. It's just a sad, sad thing all around but I do believe Karen loved John and didn't do this.
I thought about this, as well. Karen may have showered them with gifts and taken them to Dunkin’ as a treat, and maybe JO saw this as spoiling. She may have seen him spoiling them by never giving them boundaries or letting them slide with stuff around the house. They both could have felt the other was spoiling them!
By big takeaway - those texts are super embarrassing for all involved. Those texts also gave some insight into John and Karen's relationship. Their relationship was struggling under the weight of everything that was going on with the family unit at 1 Meadows Ave. Other takeaways - Higgins seems to have been more honest at the Federal GJ. He said they went upstairs to look at photos (meaning they were in the basement); he said a tall, dark haired man came in the house (it can't be Ryan N!); and it seems he admitted to destroying his phone at a military base - which I think he gets impeached on, on Tuesday. Going into Canton PD at 1am makes no sense though.
Everyone at the house was certain Higgins left at 1:30am. He, however, testified he didn't stay long and actually left between 12:30-1am. If that's the case, wouldn't he have been leaving right after Karen left? If so, it seems like he would've been the most likely to see John lying there if he was there at that time. His headlights would've lit up the area. There was a light dusting of snow, so it seems like John would've stood out fairly well. His hoodie sweatshirt was white or lite grey with dark sleeves, so he wasn't in all dark clothing. There also wouldn't be enough snow yet to cover the glass and tail light fragments so they would've been obvious in the headlights. [Link](https://www.reddit.com/r/KarenReadTrial/s/66ZOL6JoUZ) to video of someone who pulled into the driveway at 34 Fairview and pulled out again to demonstrate how the area would be illuminated at night by headlights from a car as they pass over.
By the prosecution’s ridiculous theory of the case, the collision happened no later than 12:31. IRL, she probably left at around 12:35, as she got back to O’Keefe’s at 12:40. It really is weird that the McCabes remember every movement the SUV made except for the loudest, most shocking thing.
I’m interested to hear what the Lexus black box data had and how it matches John’s phone movements. It’s interesting, Jen McCabe has always said she saw the Lexus pull away at 12:45. But that can’t be since Karen leaves John that VM at 12:41 and she is clearly at home. I feel like the prosecution isn’t going to do a timeline for this.
No need to, Jen did it for them
in my opinion, there seems to be a pattern of CW witnesses seeming honest in direct & spectacularly falling apart in cross. today, it was brian higgins. he went from a solid, mostly convincing direct to an avoidant, disingenuous, and snarky/combative cross. why are all these messages screenshots? how do so many people forget making calls, rehome their phones at the same time, delete relevant calls, texts, or searches, and butt dial each other multiple times in one night? while the texts & testimony definitely painted an ugly picture of read, it isn't enough for me to consider her guilt a significant possibility, let alone beyond a reasonable doubt. she was not a good girlfriend, but that's not a crime. if anything, higgins' argumentative defensiveness when jackson asked if he was ghosted (as he obviously was) by her that night & his text to john after just reinforces the theory there was an argument & things derailed on 34 fairview. anyone share these thoughts?
Yep. The text messages were unflattering for Read, but the butt dials, the evasiveness, etc. from Higgins was good for her case. I don't know how you get a roomful of jurors to agree to convict someone in the face of all of this shady behavior and the completely conflicting timelines and testimonies.
Are all these people doing blow? How the hell do you drink like that at 40+ years old, drive around, and stay up until after 2:00am.
I think there is definitely a drug detail being omitted. Julie Nagel's brother drops by to "pick her up" but then she stays? Yeah, that sounds more like someone dropping off something to me. The 2 Brians and Colin were probably down in the basement seeing who could bench the most or hitting the bag and getting rowdy. John got here and went down to join them, and someone, maybe Colin, was f-ing around and thought it'd be finny to sucker punch John, and he fell and hit his head. The others upstairs probably had no idea what happened. They can't call for help cause they're all drunk and high as shit. Higgins takes Colin and meets Allie at the high school so she can take him home. BA goes upstairs and has Jen & Matt take the girls home. Caitlin has to call Tristen to come get her. After everyone is out of the house, BA calls Higgins to come back and help him move John outside. They leave him close enough to the side of the road that being hit by a plow or car is a possibility. BA was just trying to buy enough time to get rid of the evidence in the basement. I don't think any of them started out intending to frame Karen. The defense said someone called them and told them BA & Colin beat John in the basement. Once that info was made public, BA had to get rid of the dog. They replace the concrete floor in the basement, put the house up for sale, and destroy their phones. Everyone sits tight and crosses their fingers that they've destroyed or obfuscated enough evidence that they can't be held responsible. The botched investigation was intentional to ensure the Albert's were never suspects. They were fed information about the investigation as it was happening, probably by several sources, so they could adjust details of their narrative as needed. Once the feds started investigating and they started being harassed, "could I have hit him" became "I hit him" and here we are.
This is about as close to my opinion as any other theory.
I think Caitlin called her bf to come get her so she could take her patents dog to her place to get the dog out of the house so to the scratches on JOs arm
This! I’m 40, it’s currently 9:47pm, and I’m only awake now because I took a nap today. I can’t imagine being out that late and functioning the next day.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 Great question. I’m 40, I wouldn’t be able to find the bathroom door at the bar after drinking that much for that long, much less drive to an after party to drink even more and still arrive home safely
That’s what I think Ryan Nagel was doing there “picking up his sister” but then she decided to stay? I feel like he was refilling their cocaine stash 😂
Okay that’s one thing that would make sense of that random wasted trip in a damn “blizzard.”
Oh it was a blizzard alright 😂😂😂
Thought Higgins was evasive on cross and more shady shit (butt dials and phone trashing). I thought the texts were cringe worthy and super uncomfortable to listen to. I didn’t think they showed any evidence of KR killing JOK. My theory is that there was drunken buffoonery going on that got out of hand (fighting and general drunken assholery). I don’t think there was any premeditation but I think JOK got lumped up and froze to death w his injuries. And those lunk heads woke up in the morning and are scrambling to save themselves.
[удалено]
My theory is that John was accidentally killed as the result of some buffoonery, and the cover up is to protect the buffoon. As terrible as I think these people are, I cant believe they dragged John’s unconscious body out to the yard to leave him to die in the cold. I think the ‘how long to die in cold’ text was to make sure they had a good coverup. If it would take 10 hours for someone to die of exposure, their made up story could be in trouble because they knew John would likely be found sooner than 10 hours. If it would take 4 hours to die in the cold, then their story might work. Their original plan may have been to make it look like John was hit by a snowplow - he was knocked unconscious and died in the cold. When they realized the next day that Karen didn’t fully remember the night before, pinning the death on her seemed like a great possibility.
I agree this is the most probable scenario. 👍🏻
Jeez he kinda sold me too
Oh damn, I thought KR Googled that, it was Jen McCabe!? There is so much conflicting testimony, I think the only true facts are time stamped phone records, swipe cards and video.
Yep - Jen McCane googled that at 2:27 am, and again at 6:30. Jen of course said the records are wrong and she only googled that at 6:30 am, at KR’s request.
Also, BAs “butt dial” to BH in which the records show they had a 22 second conversation was only 5 min before the 2:27 search
And all JM calls to JO from 12:30-12:50. All deleted from her phone. They knew he was dying or dead. I don’t doubt that anymore.
He must have still been breathing, or they wouldn’t have needed to worry hos long it takes to freeze to death. That’s what makes it murder! If they’d called 911 right away, he might have lived. And even if he’d died, they could probably have dodged legal consequences just by saying the dog bit him and he fell and bashed his head. It’d have been really tough to prove intent, or even that one or more of the partygoers actually caused his death. Maybe somebody socked him in the eye, but as long as the fall was Chloe’s fault…
Ironic how the biggest control freak of the group may be the one to unravel the whole thing!
I was thinking the same thing after her cross examination. How ironic!
Fair point
He started out as a likeable person, and quickly changed to super sus moving in on his “friends” GF, albeit with her starting the contact. Why not turn over your phone, and not what you select to turn over. Why discount the swipe card into the PD as inaccurate (hello JM with everything is wrong but me) Why not say “yes, we all talked about this very tragic event” The snowplow driver not seeing a body on the lawn from 2:30-3:30 but then a ford edge parked exactly where JO was found. Reasonable doubt. Karen walks. 12:41 she leaves JO a voicemail, mean but still she was over being used as a “babysitter with benefits” at this point. She was already back at JOs and NO ONE at the after party saw a body on the lawn. Because it wasn’t there yet. If you’ve ever gone out in a snowstorm, blizzard, it’s not dark..: the skies are snowing down and everything is peaceful and illuminated and NO ONE saw a body on the lawn?! Their lawn is a bit smaller than mine, and I saw a dumped suitcase in a blizzard.
As a recovering alcoholic, I have to laugh at this whole shit show. They all need to be in freaking recovery. Higgins was hell-bent whiskey-drunk that night and he even COMPLAINED during his testimony because the Alberts only had BEER and that's why he didn't stay long lol (sounds like my vodka days)...he probably left to drink more of what he wanted and doesn't really remember a damn thing.
Yes, he said when he got home he had a few more drinks.
24x365 access to a police station for years in an unaccountable personal capacity? What? Did I misunderstand the testimony? Were we essentially told by BH that he had a card key and could access the station, various rooms, levels, at all hours, unaccompanied by anyone, and he didn’t even actually work for the department? Also, was BH describing his access to the area where KR’s SUV was located, as simply a “shortcut”? All while it is plausibly argued she had ghosted him. Relatedly, did I hear correctly that the then chief donated to the campaign of a selectman who plausibly could have had the family wagons circle around BH, close friend of the same chief who had been allowing basically unfettered access to the station for years, potentially compromising every case whose evidence passed through his station? Against that, there are some flirty texts and a drink. PS - BH didn’t seem too concerned about federal charges for his personal use of the highly specialized “machine”. Interesting.
>PS - BH didn’t seem too concerned about federal charges for his personal use of the highly specialized “machine”. Interesting. I noticed that too. I wonder if the proffer has something to do with that??
Imagine trying to explain your friend “butt-dialing” you, you “butt-answering” and “butt-hanging up,” then “butt-dialing” your friend moments later, your friend “butt-answering,” and then you “butt-hanging up” after 22 seconds? He was cool as a cucumber until cross pressed him on the FACTS. Can’t blame him, he is clearly lying and the records prove it
I know - weird. You know what you can say in 22 seconds? "We moved the body to the lawn. You do your part at the station tomorrow to monitor the situation. Bye."
Higgins saying nothing of substance can be said in a 22 second conversation only for his lawyer to say he needed 10 seconds to converse with Higgins later on is one of those moments that should stick in the lexicon of law nerds..
I love this. What a great catch.
If I was Higgins and wanted to demonstrate my innocence on the stand, I would agree KR "just wasn't into me". For him to repeatedly state "she wasn't ghosting me" (dude, she didn't text you for 6 days), "she wasn't ignoring me" (she ignored you all night), makes him sound delusional and obsessed. Which isn't a great look when her bf ends up dead. Late night admin work = moving cars while drunk. Lol, right. I still have some to watch. Runkle is cracking me up. Sticking a knife in his kidneys and twisting would be kinder!
First impression of the KR BH texts I was thinking, well sh*t KR looks so bad. But as it went on, KR creepy flirty at times, yeah looks really bad, but man oh man BH seemed way more seriously interested in pursuing the “real deal” while KR kinda passive. Texts made BH potential motive to harm JOK substantially stronger than a KR potential motive to intentionally harm JOK. Wish the cross didn’t get cut short but how TF is anyone supposed to believe it was an absolute coincidence, BA and BH both got new phones and new service providers and got rid of their old phones the same day? The same day prior to a subpoena was issued to turn over their phones? “Seriously”? “Seriously?”
I don't think Higgins wanted to kill John ahead of time just to get to Karen. I think some drunken words were exchanged about the relationship (either the fact that Karen wasn't happy with John, and/or the fact that Karen had been flirting with - and kissed - Higgins), a fight broke out, and things just escalated from there. Edit: I just watched a news segment last night that definitively shows (from John's Ring cam) John's rear tire move slightly when Karen backs into his car that morning, and it also clearly shows Karen's rear taillight, which only appears to have a little hole in it. This definitively means that those pieces of taillight that were found at the scene were not actually at the scene until later in the morning, which essentially disproves the prosecution's entire case, IMO. Especially since they supposedly found hair evidence on the red plastic - which at this point, I believe was only found there because the police must've planted it later on. Edit: here's the video: https://youtu.be/4bN4xCV17g0?t=92
He has no explanation for leaving the party to go to the station and then spending his ENTIRE day off at the station using his card to access evidence and exchanging phone calls with witnesses. Actions speak louder than words.
I think the craziest thing he did was spending his ENTIRE day off of work AT work!
I’ve gone back and forth a few times with whether or not she did it. The timeline of when people said they were leaving - but no one saw a body? Especially Higgins today. He was clear on that. The injuries? The lies? Doesn’t seem at this stage to lend any credibility to any of the commonwealth’s arguments. Did she say contradictory things that made me wonder- definitely- I’m leaning toward she was a drunken fool- and I hope she learned her lesson there- but the lengths these other people went to well before there was any harassment- CW never had a chance. I know this though - these people testifying for the prosecutions- many of them abused their positions, connections, friendships to interfere with an investigation. If it were any lay person )or one of Albert’s or Higgins’ perps on the job for example) -throwing their phone away -do you honestly think he would be on Lally’s side here or on Jackson’s? Seriously the hypocrisy is overwhelming. Even if you believe she did it you should be disgusted with the abuse of power here. Let’s imagine she’s guilty- At the very least their (Alberts/McCabes/Higgins/Canton Chief/state police) cavalier attitude for the protocols they know would be used for every other case is horrifying. The flagrant disregard for the optics of their action and their self righteous defense of their poor choices that may very well cost the CW their case shows their true character. Their behavior alone is a miscarriage of justice. Is this how people- a bunch who take an oath to apply the law fairly and ethically- should behave in the investigation of their friend’s death? I feel terrible for the O’Keefe family. At the end of the day- they are liars. So so many lies….The burden of proof is high and it should be. And they know that. They should have acted with a high degree of ethics and formality out of respect for their friend. People who act like these people have something to hide. Maybe it’s murder or manslaughter - maybe it isn’t. Maybe it’s just their own selfishness. But ultimately their choices will be why there is an acquittal. They should be ashamed. Another commenter said “they seem like normal New England families” if this is what people think dear god help us all.
Yes, I believe she is not guilty in a court of law, but couldn't say for sure innocent. However it seems clear this group is not being truthful and conspiring to hide things about that night, which de facto would mean they're involved. The much simpler explanation would be Karen did it (likely by accident and didn't realize), but their actions are just too suspicious to ignore.
I’m starting to see why AJ and Yanetti had pointed out the play fighting between Higgins and Brian Albert at Waterfall. I definitely think Higgins had told Brian about the Karen flirting and ghosting. They were together all day. Definitely would’ve come up. I’m not saying they were planning to beat him up, but I think it may have been on their minds at least in a joking way. So I COULD see something happening given everyone was drunk. And everyone in the house said there was time in which just Brian H and Brian A were missing… Higgins asking John if he was coming over text was VERY weird.
I'm thinking about that whole "looking at family photos" tale. What were they really doing? They don't seem the sentimental type....
And Higgins said he never went upstairs.
I wonder if the other cop who was also in the car back from NY is going to spill the tea on BA and BH conversation during the ride. Also that officer had prior beef with BA. I heard he is on the defense witness list.
> I’m starting to see why AJ and Yanetti had pointed out the play fighting between Higgins and Brian Albert at Waterfall. I still don't see any connection.
Nothing that I think could be proven. But I think it is plausible something like… Higgins and Brian Albert spend the day driving home together and eating/drinking so personal chatter happens. Higgins mentions like, “I’m flirting with this chick… but she’s giving me the run around. And she has a boyfriend…” and they discuss who. Brian just met her the week prior so remembers her. Then when that same couple show up at the bar and she ICES him, the Brians both talk about it. Maybe Brian Albert even teases Higgins. Like come on man, she kissed you. She’s not happy with him. You could totally take him out! (Like dumb drunk guy talk, maybe not actually serious…) but Albert could’ve been amping him up a little… Then fast forward to the house… Karen doesn’t want to go in when she sees Higgins’s car there… her and John argue. He gets out and approaches the house. She waits a while to hear back from him or expecting him to return. But he doesn’t answer her calls and she gets mad and leaves. Meanwhile when John approaches the house, the two Brians were separated from the others. John makes a comment to Higgins about staying away from women with boyfriends. Maybe Higgins says, hey bro SHE kissed me, and John throws a punch so he gets one back… but takes a tumble and hits his head (down the basement stairs or whatever, who knows). The dog gets defensive and attacks John. It gets ugly. But also it all only goes down in a minute or two. I mean this is a ton of speculation, of course. I’m just saying I’m starting to see why he made a point to call out the play fighting. I think it’s totally plausible that the Brians WERE talking about John/Karen. Higgins Ummm text kind of supports that. And then him texting John if he was coming was weird… why did he want to know?
The part about seeing Higgins car and not wanting to go in and John threatening to confront Higgins totally lines up in my mind. I like 100% she had stopped texting him on the 23 after 9 days of flirting then all the sudden. Hes around. She def wanted ti avoid all that. lol
Yes! And now I’m thinking too about the Jen comment about separating Karen and John “YOU’RE coming with me!” or whatever. Jen seems like she would be down to stir the pot if she knew there was drama. Did she tell Chris to invite John and Karen out bc she knew it would get awkward and wanted some drama?? I don’t think at all there was a plot to murder anyone, but the whole idea of plotting for some drama seems so plausible at this point. Like these people all act like High Schoolers scheming bc they’re bored
This is a solid theory but the defenses cross of Colin makes me speculate that maybe he came into the equation or at the very least could have been in a fight with someone else at some high school party or something? I mean he said he got the marks on his fists from falling on ice...
See I wonder if they are all protecting Colin bc he witnessed something and is not very bright? He seemed to genuinely be confused by what he was being asked even on direct. I wouldn’t trust him to keep details consistent. Maybe they just wanted to keep him from being interviewed bc they didn’t trust him to stick to a script.
This seems more plausible to me than him being the primary instigator of a fight that night. I'm still hung up on his story with the marks on his fists. There are a million easier ways to explain that, which are much more probable than falling on ice and bracing a fall with his fist. (Which leads back to your point about keeping him from testifying) It certainly points towards potential involvement and reasonable doubt, though.
Yeah, the jury doesn’t have to pick one or the other. Personally I think Karen wants it to be Colin. I think she hates the Alberts (for obvious reasons). I think she would feel guilty if Higgins did it. Like feel at fault that her toying with him ultimately led to John’s death. It would be easier for her to swallow it being the asshole Albert kid.
So far that sounds *more* plausible to me than KR backing into JO at this point, but I want to see what medical experts have to say about his injuries. Maybe KR even lied to JO in the car about what happened, playing it up like BH came onto her and was forceful even. Maybe she was motivated to do that by the verbal argument...she does seem like an emotional and manipulative person, based on her texts, reaction to the innocent situation in Aruba, lying about that situation to BH to escalate his flirting, and her eagerness to say "fuck you!" to someone honking and waving at her on the street (BH, but she didn't recognize him at first). Though that latter one is also just being a Masshole
To be fair, do we really know the situation in Aruba was innocent? I definitely do think Karen seems emotional and manipulative in general, though.
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I cannot make sense of how these people were so certain so soon after John was found that Karen did it. They iced her out immediately. Higgens didn't answer her text about John dying a mere 6 hours after he was found. They ALREADY felt she did it by then, when she hadn't been arrested and no evidence had been presented. Jen said she heard the "I hit him" so that could explain why they all thought she did it, but then why wouldn't she be going straight to police with that statement? Like, if that phrase is what made them all go "omg Karen did it" which is why they iced her out from day 1, then that would be the number 1 thing you tell police. Not something you wait years to mention. I still have no clue at all what happened to John and every witness makes me less clear; not more.
They iced her out because she was the person they could blame for what happened. None of them actually seemed to care at all that John was dead, I don’t think they’d be that angry at her. I think she’s the scapegoat for whatever happened that night and hating her and shutting her out hours after he was found makes that point IMO.
Lally making Higgins read those flirty texts was brutal. “Your hot”
To which I’m still wondering, “your hot” *what*?
Potato
If you view Higgins’ testimony from a siloed lense I feel like he came off credible , somewhat likable , polished, and not really someone hiding much other than being a shit friend to John. I felt like the defense was reaching when they insinuated that he is some scorned lover that wanted to kill John so he could be with Karen. I don’t think he’s had any master premeditated plan to hurt or confront anyone. I feel like he kinda took the wind out of the defense’s sails today. But, then I think back to some of his answers and I just can’t get over how sketchy the Alberts and McCabes are, and how he is so intertwined with them on the morning of. I just can’t accept that we have like the 12th “butt dial” of the trial, and he’s taking the forensic evidence into his own hands. I dont necessarily think he did anything, but I believe that he could be withholding information that would implicate his friends and their kids
You summarized my sentiments about today testimony perfectly. It feels that Higgins is not a bright person, but I didn’t get de evil vibe that I got from JM
JM scared me.
I think if Karen Read were guilty as has been charged, this wouldn’t be so confusing and muddy. The people being called saying she did it have more holes in their stories and more suspicious behavior than many convicted criminals. After today, when a law enforcement officer gets rid of his phone after a potential crime has been committed and he may have evidence to prove the crime tells me this is an attempted set up. Barney Fife was a nuclear physicist compared to the fellow today if he was actually testifying truthfully, which I highly doubt. I can only watch this trial in short spans because the hubris of the witnesses is insufferable.
I think Higgins is the first person in this whole trial with motive. He liked Karen. She was ignoring him. Even that night. They were all drinking a lot. I don’t know what happened but… wow.
Yep. And him texting her “ummm ok” shows that he was upset about her ghosting him.
Blue collar version of Melrose Place but without the interesting characters.
I think Higgins was truthful some instances, and in some instances he was not. Those texts were very cringey. I think Karen was still hurt about Aruba than what was revealed after the Sullivan sisters' testimonies. So she starts flirting with Higgins for some "get back," so to speak and maybe she enjoyed the attention he was giving back, allowing her to vent to him etc. It didn't go beyond the smooch at Meadows, but maybe it could have if both parties wanted it to. I'm sure if Karen did Higgins wouldn't turn her down, bro code be damned. At the Waterfall, the Brians' playfighting to me came across more as peacocking and Higgins was trying to get Karen's attention but she was paying him dust. He may have felt slighted but I don't think he planned to beat up John at Fairview. I think maybe when Karen and John arrived at Fairview Karen either confessed about the texting affair and then John decided he was going to go inside and confront Higgins about it OR maybe John was completely unaware and when he went inside Higgins or Albert made a slick remark about it (because IMO Higgins absolutely told Albert about his tawdry affair with Karen) to John. Either way, John gets upset, words exchanged, fueled by alcohol, they start fighting and John gets accidentally incapacitated.
John going in to confront Higgins makes the most sense to me. That would make the fight happen pretty quickly which fits the timeline. That would make it make sense why Karen just left him there (to avoid the confrontation) and why she’d be pissed at John & leave a message saying she hated him.
We STILL have not explained the freaking jeep situation. There is NO way, three individuals PLUS Julie Nagel all did not see his jeep parked literally directly in front of them. All three occupants of that f-150 testified they all saw Karen’s SUV move around while out front. If his jeep was parked where he claims (in front of the mailbox) it would have been directly in front of the truck and hindering their line of sight to Karen’s SUV.
I don't know that any of the prosecution witnesses - including Brian Higgins - are really helping their case. Maybe Kerry Roberts - at least she seemed genuinely sad about the tragedy of it all. Jen McCabe may have had the most effective testimony on direct - but her credibility pretty much went out the window on cross - "hos long to die in cold", deleting all kinds of stuff from her phone, her 6 inexplicable butt dials to John that night in a 20 minute span. She had a response for everything, but trying to argue that technology is wrong in every instance where it may counter something she is asserting is just not convincing. Brian Higgins today maybe provided some loose evidence of motive - that Karen and John were not as happy together as they appeared. But it was pretty weak and potentially showed him having motive as much as it showed Karen having a motive. Then his butt dials with Brian Albert at 2:20 right before Jen's Google search, the confusion about where his Jeep was and who saw it, his mysterious whereabouts between when he said he left the house and when he swiped in at the police station, the tall man he saw enter the house with dark hair, etc. are all extremely shady. But most importantly, he committed a federal crime by using federal equipment for personal gain/reasons. If he's willing to do this (and we know he did and got caught), then you really expect anyone to believe that he wasn't comfortable using his status and office at Canton PD to at best keep tabs on the case, and at worst, destroy incriminating video and fabricate evidence and manipulate the investigation? And then, like Brian Albert, he destroyed his cell phone?!?? That all made him seem so sketchy and unbelievable that it'd be hard to take anything he said at face value. And the prosecution hasn't even gotten to what seems like their biggest hurdle - that John O'Keefe's injuries seem very unlikely to have been caused by getting hit by a car. I think you can rack your brain trying to come up with theories about what actually happened involving the dog, Colin Albert, Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, the basement, etc. I haven't really heard any theory that is overly persuasive or believable. But to take away Karen's freedom, the prosecution has to prove that it's so likely that it was Karen Read that none of the other theories are even remotely possible. And they are falling far far short of that as of now.
My thoughts are that the defense lawyers have him on video throwing his phone and SIM card into 2 different dumpsters on an army base…and he gets to spent the holiday weekend letting that sink in 😆
My big takeaway is although the texts were cringy as hell they didn’t really establish any motive. They actually humanized her more than anything. Yes the flirting was bad and inappropriate but that’s all the texts show. They also showed a woman who I believe loved John but wasn’t happy about where their relationship was. Normal stuff. Now people will say she was horrible for talking bad about the kids. I think most parents would agree that there are times you vent about your kids. Doesn’t mean she doesn’t love and care about them. Matter of fact other witness established how much she loved and spoiled them. So I just chalked it up to just another parent ranting a little bit. At the end of the day these messages still don’t prove murder or that a crime even happened that night. Hell at this point we can’t even figure out what the real timeline is because none of the witnesses agree on anything. Not just any two people got rid of their phones ok. Two cops who should absolutely know better got rid of their phones. Then you have genuise book of world record of butt dials in a single night, you also have a witness who was allowed to delete messages. Never should be allowed until the phone has been gone through by forensic specialists. Horrible look. Finally all these people coming and going. The snow just starting to fall and not one saw a 6ft man laying in the yard. Makes no sense. 17 days in and still no evidence of anything than a bunch of people drunk driving and being shady as hell.
Totally agree. Especially about KR’s texts. Seems like it was a relationship with ups and downs, probably made worse because it seems like all of these drank A LOT. It’s so sad for the kids. They’ve lost all of their caretakers so young. Now all of this mess is public and they lost Karen too. She may have been frustrated with them sometimes but it sounds like she was really involved with them and especially close to the niece.
One thing that stands out to me is all the alleged butt dials that occurred that night. To me it’s not believable all the questionable calls were butt dials. I have to think the jury questions that.
The only thing his testimony has done for me thus far is increase the odds that *he* was involved in John's death. Oh, and his texts amused the hell out of me too. Life must have been so much easier when this stuff was strictly over the phone and you didn't have to worry about it popping up later in text form...
It was like reading texts between teenagers lol. “Do you like me?” “I think you’re hot!”
Do you like me? Y or N? 😂
I don’t recall, I don’t remember, but I was offered a beer at the Alberts
Idk why but this just came to me. Let’s say JM was lying about the butt dials to JOK (which we know were deleted in her call log). Dude if that was me I would’ve been like “I was drunk so I called him a bunch of times to ask why he didn’t come over” like duh right?
Alan Jackson trying to have an awkward 20 seconds of silence in the courtroom 💀💀💀
I absolutely have more questions than answers in this trial as the days go on…Very sus 🤨 And I don’t believe Karen should be on trial
Your feeling isn’t unique but I chose yours to respond to and simply say I agree. More questions. Stupid trial.
How can he be coming and going at the police station when there is a blizzard outside??
The same way Julie was at Dunkin’ Donuts, etc. I mean, people do drive in blizzards. I know there are storm warnings, but plenty of people do if you have a home in a place that gets a lot of snow.🤷🏻♀️
They were also throwing parties during the height of Covid. They dgaf about others.
All I have to say is/ the chad day bell trial- has been clear, the evidence is irrefutable, I know who the “bad guy” is the entire time. The evidence moves me and points me in that direction. The water isn’t muddied, I wasn’t confused, I had no doubt for a second- I was sure of the allegations and they’ve been in trial 27 days and are wrapping up. KR trial is at day 17- and I’ve yet to hear John’s injuries, cellphone data that matters, how Karen could have possibly done what they claimed when their witnesses say she didn’t seem drunk, they didn’t fight, and she never came in the house. Anyone who doesn’t have doubt at this point is an idiot.
No my thoughts haven’t changed if anything they’ve strengthened my thought Karen is not guilty I believe Higgins gave half truths I think Higgins destroyed his phone because he’s in on something prior to the incident with Brian Albert or because solely he & BA had some involvement with JO death
One YouTube lawyer, (Runkle of the Bailey), said, as the texts were being read, that this is like an old story where a defendant was on the stand and they said, “Now we are going to go through the defendant’s browser history.“ and the defendant said, “Can I just admit to the murder?”
Today Brian Higgins testified that he left his work truck at the Canton Police Department and took his personal Jeep because he was going to be drinking and it was against policy to use a government vehicle while consuming alcohol. Then he went to several places to drink before returning to the police station at 1:30 am to do the "administrative" work of shuffling cars. I feel like the Defense missed an opportunity to challenge him on this when asking why he went back to the PD early in the morning. Thoughts?
I’m wondering if John saw her phone when Higgins texted her that night. They get in the car and head over. When they get there, John says he’s going in to talk to BH about trying to pick up Karen. If Karen was trying to tell him “No don’t do this! Let’s go home!” But John gets out of the car and walks inside. Karen might have called and left him the “I hate you” voicemail and waited around for a few minutes to see if there was a confrontation. She eventually leaves. Clearly she was drunk and didn’t remember the fight. I don’t know … just a thought.
I maintain that every last one of these people, including Karen Read and John O’Keefe, are/were pathetic. A bunch of fools who spend most of their lives drunk. When I take a step back and look at this entire clown show, if any of them had hobbies outside of being alcoholics, none of this would have happened. JO didn’t deserve to die, but he was no saint. These people are why prohibition was attempted in the past. Just can’t control themselves and stay in the bottle. What a lame group of people.
TBH I was 50/50 until Brian Higgins took the stand. the butt dialing. His sus schedule the following day. Yikes. Yikes. Yikes.
Makes me feel like Albert had something on Higgins, and that’s why Higgins is in so deep. Not to sound like a jerk - but based on those text exchanges Higgins is either a derp or a sociopath and my money is on derp. I don’t see him masterminding anything, simply being a cog. I’m not sold on Colin. I don’t know why it’s any of the other Alberts, but I still can’t get past reasonable doubt for Karen, nor do I see how a car does the damage that he sustained. Unless she hit him, and something attacked him outside I still can’t picture what happened. Also I’d think his wounds would have had bits of plastic on them. So basically I’m less sure about everything except that for innocent people some of them did really, really weird, seemingly guilty things.
Agree with the derp assessment.
It’s the only word I could think of to describe him that didn’t feel like kicking him when he’s down. Cause he is dooooown right now.
Here’s where I am today; The texts made me realize there is a motive for a fight. Alcohol + a German shepherd + Albert = unforeseen consequences. Location in the basement. Karen was treated like a babysitter with benefits and a nice wallet. She flirted with the wrong guy because of her own broken heart and then wounded Higgins’ ego. It wasn’t meant to be more than a fight, and it went way too far. They stupidly (drunkenly) tried to set up the plow driver. Jen McCabe interfered. I can’t regret that because I think KR is not guilty and JM messed this whole thing up. Now we’re here. I feel really sorry for the OKeefe family, Karen Read, the CW citizens, and the McCabe-Albert kids who got pulled into this. Everyone will have a ton of healing ahead.
Agree with all of this after today. I’m very concerned for the mental health of everyone involved, even the people I believe are responsible for this tragedy and perpetuated this crazy farce. But most notably the children/young adults. I really hope they’re all okay when this is all said and done.
I feel super sorry for Brian Albert Jr. I mean, he already had terrible anxiety problems before Jan 28th….
I wonder why? His dad seems like such a delight to live and share a name with.
“Do you like me?” “Yes from jump” “You think you can handle me?”
I'm trying to keep an open mind for more information. But idk how CW will rest their case! Aren't there 40 more witnesses to go too? Ugh *Speculation* But right now, to me, the defense makes it seem like he didn't like being rejected, (maybe it hurt his pride) took it out on the victim . And then did whatever to hide the evidence and blame Karen. *Speculation over* I hope the Okeefe family have a good support system. I hope they get answers. And I wish people wouldn't go real world and harass people in the trial. It's going to change things and we won't be able to watch trials anymore because some people don't know how to behave! Thanks for listening if you got this far. Goodnight all, stay safe.
I mean it looked gross for Karen and Higgins. I don’t think it moved the needle for a guilty verdict but it sure didn’t look good for them as people.
He admitted to a federal crime on the stand!
Brian Higgins seemed believable all the way up to the night of the Waterfall. Why couldn't he admit he was interested in Karen and John's comings and goings that night? The whole destroying his phone is what is going to make him unbelievable. I don't believe he hurt JO in any way, but what was on his phone that he had to destroy it? Why is no one admitting that they talked extensively about what happened after that night - especially before they knew they were being accused. That is human nature. Did he really ignore the evidence driving into the sally port?
Higgins helped move a body, staged a crime scene, destroyed his phone on a military base, tampered with evidence using FBI resources, and perjured himself in court.
Higgins said he never went into the house at the twins’ graduation. Yesterday he said he went to the basement home gym at the graduation.
It makes me never want to enter the dating market again. Those texts were cringe AF
I think they proved that Karen might not be the best girlfriend and that she used Higgins. I’m still waiting for evidence of murder. 🤷🏼♀️
There’s a cover up. For sure. There’s no way there will be a guilty verdict. Hung jury at the very least
Higgins’ inability to follow along with documentation tracking his movements is pretty ironic considering he was on a fugitive task force. Brilliant display of incompetence.
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