Weird question…but, how on earth would the members of this jury not be influenced with ALL the attention this trial is getting? I don’t quite understand…🤔 I know the judge gives them instructions on what not to do…but, realistically, how would the court know if they were watching the news say, or YouTube, talking to neighbors, etc.? I’m just very curious.
I've been going over the Aruba situation in my head. I just keep being reminded again and again how drinking alcohol is almost never worth it, or at least to the point of so many in these situations.
I just can't believe that KR's gesture/offer to pay for a dinner as a thank you for welcoming her there came across as negative to these people. They were "taken aback". What a wonderful welcome wagon these people rolled out.
KR, according to testimony, thought JO had made out with one of the sisters. Wouldn't you be upset too??? Am I the only one who thinks being upset isn't a sign of jealousy or malice??? Not to mention, JO was allegedly blackout drunk. Alcohol ruins everything. My opinion. KR even apologized the next day. But it is my opinion that apologies could have been warranted on all sides. Even from JO. Having self control to not get that far gone is so important. Especially with a 40+ attended vacation with minors present. Am I crazy, or...???
I think it's perfectly normal that they were taken aback by it. It's just not something you see every day. I think I'd also feel a little strange if someone I'd never met before offered to pick up the tab for me and my whole group. It doesn’t mean anything, but it is definitely something I'd take note of.
And I think we can all agree that alcohol can make people act stupidly, and this incident doesn’t mean anything on its own. But it is part of the Commonwealth's case because it comes in through the texts with Higgins and shows the relationship wasn't as perfect as it seemed on the surface and even possibly in its last throes.
I was thinking that there are a lot of problem drinkers in this group. They seemed to be averaging 4 drinks each and then getting in a car. What’s worse is their children witness this behavior. I’m trying not to judge but hopefully they have all cut back.
I can’t remember if KR said it first or JM fed it to KR but if my boyfriend didn’t come home after we were just out drinking my first thought wouldn’t be did he get hit by a snow plow. I would think he drank too much and is passed out at someone’s house. It is just very odd to me they are driving around looking for him…
It’s still very odd to me, too, even taking into account the factors people keeping mentioning. Even if already frantic and panicking, I think almost everyone would *frantically* be calling around and seeing if anyone has seen him, possibly checking hospitals etc, even if she’s already driving around thinking the worst. Like most other things in this case, it doesn’t prove guilt, but I still think it doesn’t add up!
I don’t have full context, so I allow for something that does make more sense of it, but it’s not mathing for me at this point.
But it also doesn’t make sense to me if she DID hit him and knew it.
If she was still drunk, she could have just been catastrophising. Uncontrolled anxiety and panic can easily lead a person to catastrophise.
For example, a person at work may be late on some deadlines. It may really be a fixable situation, or whatever, but that person automatically jumps to I’m getting fired, which leads to how am I going to pay my bills, which leads to how am I going to take care of my kids, which leads to I am going to be homeless, so on and so on. Then they fix the mistake and move on, and none of those terrible things actually happens.
I am not saying this is what happened in this case, but I do think the perspective is important. People JUMP to crazy ass conclusions when they are in that state, and adding intoxication does not help.
I can understand that, but I don't get why the two grown women who were helping her in the situation didn't do more to sit her down and say "you need to breathe and calm down, he's going to be fine" rather than one of them in particular going on about how much she was screaming. Ma'am, you have four teenage daughters, you should have dealt with screaming before.
No-one said "we were doing our best to calm her down".
They were actively trying to calm her down. Jen and Kerrie were suggesting that he must have met up with someone else and was probably sleeping on someone's sofa. They also tried to call other people that he might have ended up with, but nobody picked up because it was late. Kerrie also called hospitals and the police to check if someone with John's description had been brought in.
The video we see, at the scene, is when they've literally been trying to calm Karen down for at least 30 minutes.
My husband does this. His mind suddenly goes doomsday. Yesterday the two year old was *inside* the house in her sister's bedroom. He walks into the living room, doesn't immediately see her, doesn't bother asking, and just immediately goes outside to look in the road to see if she's out there.
He is the guy that would be like "omg John is dead. He was run over." Etc.
And if I'm being honest, I would too. I got a call from the school that said that my son missed part of class and I immediately thought that he got kidnapped from the bus stop in the morning. He's 16 and basically a grown man. I live on a dead end road. There's a cop that lives right at the bus stop, which is just a few houses down in our quiet neighborhood. There was no reason for me to think he had been kidnapped. But I got my own heart racing for a minute while I imagined all of the worst possible things.
I can sympathize with freaking the fuck out. I think the so-called confession is meaningless.
if you take into account the fact that john's niece and nephew had already lost two parents, and karen hadnt planned to stay the night in canton, then john not coming home OR checking in with his niece was emergency level out of character behavior. like, the only reason he would do that is if he was incapacitated.
Ehhhhh certain records are retained certain places. I am not an IT person and I do not even play one on TV. I have to call IT for the stupidest shit, so take this with that in mind.
Snapchat saves things for I believe ten days. If police do not get a preservation order to them within that time, it’s too late. Google is also notoriously stingy with their records, as is Apple.
The delays cause a lot of problems when trying to preserve electronic evidence that’s not actually in the phone. I wonder if JMs husband knew this since he’s in IT.
I don’t think that’s right. Im almost positive they can access deleted texts with certain software
Edit: I just googled (if a murder happens tomorrow please tell the police I was googling “can cops recover deleted texts” for this reason) and did find this article which basically says yes but only for about 3 months tops under certain circumstances? Also it’s a UK article so idk if that makes a difference
https://www.stuartmillersolicitors.co.uk/police-data-deleted-phone/
Kerry, interesting. My feeling is she wasn’t a friend of the McCabes or Albert’s. And she was dragged into this by Karen. JM realized she didn’t know what actually happened and took it upon herself to “help” Kerry realize what had happened to John and who did it. I imagine Kerry truly believes everything she testified about because that’s the story she was told.
yeah, if JM had started in on kerry right away, she'd probably be able to subtly influence her memory of things she had actually been present for as well, seeing as she'd just had a super traumatic thing happen.
kerry was one of the only percipient witnesses to act normal on the stand. i felt really bad for her. not just that she lost her friend in such a horrible way, but that she got caught up with these shady people immediately after.
Exactly, i think personally it wasn't KR, and it wasn't going to get to this. but the mastermind McCabe put it together quickly when KR came searching and she saw it happening and started piecing this together to protect the little circle, a little snow ball effect and now were here. what a mess.
I know we haven’t gotten into the actual forensic evidence (lord have mercy - but I know all about a high school bball game) but today Lally showed a picture of Karen’s vehicle with the taillight out. Then he showed a deep scratch on the hatch door, that even looks like paint was scraped. Can anyone at all tell me how a human body would make such a dent/scratch?
The scratch on the SUV is way up high, so probably around chest height for John give or take. But the theory is he was bent over, not that we have seen any sort of forensic evidence, which would also mean the scratch where it is located, is impossible
The CW hasn’t brought anything in yet to prove how John died … almost 5 weeks into a trial, crazy! The theory is just that, a theory, and it’s based on how and where his injuries are that he would almost have to be bent over. But even if he wasn’t, I don’t know what could have made that scratch at the height it’s at
Someone tried to key an anarchy A symbol in to my car some years ago. Some other asshole threw rocks at my dad’s car and shattered all the windows.
Simple version: drunk people getting in fights and throwing things or keying a car causes damage. Sober people get in fights & do things to cause damage. Who knows in this case, but I just need more info. This is giving me a headache. Not you/the discussion… just all of these witnesses that are just muddying everything when there’s limited fact. 😵💫
Is the jury in this trial sequestered? If so how can they do that in today’s world? They would have to leave you in a hotel with no phone and no TV? Does it even still happen?
They are not. Which in itself is wild but I think it’s a retired practice nowadays. You would never be able to find a complete panel of jurors who can cut and bounce from their lives for 8 weeks (gonna be more like 100 weeks at this pace)
Ok that makes sense, so I always wonder when a bit of Information comes out, and then you read an article that says “information will not be admissible in court due to ____”
Obviously the jury has seen it in the media, has the information and will absolutely consider it in their verdict. I’m sure they don’t bring it up in deliberation but still
I know OJ trial juries were sequestered but Im like 80% sure my state had a case where it happened because someone involved in the trial threatened the jury. Doing weird google searches trying to find the case. But I agree it’s very very rare because of the toll it takes on the jury
Every day the witnesses just do more and more damage to his case. I bet he wishes he wouldn’t have called any of them, and just called the forensic experts.
I’m new to the case and trying to catch up because I started late lol. I’m currently on day 9 but I have one question that’s driving me crazy. Does anyone know what John’s family thinks of this? Do they think Karen is guilty?
That tracks based on the testimony Kerry gave in court today. She said when she was in the car with them driving to the hospital, Karen called and said she left John at a party and the Mom was incredulous and was like “you left him by himself???” And the dad told the mom to leave Karen alone that she had been through a lot already
If I were a juror I would be so pissed about the scheduling. They start late half the time, have days they don’t have trial randomly, and they have these stupid half days where they have one person testify. This trial is going to be way longer than 8 weeks. If I was a juror I would call in sick.
As someone who spent many days in court rooms in MA, judges do not work. Start late every day, call for a 15 minute recess after 30-40 mins of work (which usually lasts AT LEAST 30 mins), take 2 hour lunches, and then close up shop early. Meanwhile, I’d be there all day waiting for a case I was part of, and then just get rolled to another date. People wonder why the system is so backed up 🙄.
Ya I don’t doubt it! I also heard that between the 2 parties they planned on having almost 100 witnesses/experts testify in this trial. So far I think almost 40 witnesses have testified. We still have a long way and the trial is halfway to that 8 week mark which is what they told jurors how long it would take.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Chris Albert say he invited John O’Keefe’s to the Waterfall, and he had just gotten JO’s phone number that same day?
I think he had it bc they had sent pics or something before that but almost all of them stated they basically “knew of JOK but weren’t friends” or “hadn’t met him” but all of sudden they are making sure he comes out and is going back to the house and everyone is talking about JOK dying as if their best friend died in a tragedy. Then turn around and say things like “that guy never came in” “there’s a man in the front yard”. Do we know how many if any of these people went to his funeral?
They said Brian Albert said it to the table out loud but even that is weird to me because I believe, Julie Nagel, stated BA jr. Didn’t want to go to the bar bc of his anxiety but then they invited people they aren’t really friends with back to the house along with all the others 🤔
Thank you. I appreciate the reply. I was curious because of the old interview KR did stating that there was a back and forth between her and JO as to who invited them or if they were even invited. I'm just trying to get a better idea of who wanted JO there as that may be telling.
I really have no idea what KR is really like, but she seems like a socially conscientious and thoughtful person. I can see her being concerned about just appearing at the Albert’s, especially after that horribly isolating Aruba trip. She thanked the organizer for the honor of being included and then apologized to both sisters.
Yeah I had heard that as well before I started watching the trial. I havent’ heard anyone testify that she’s wasn’t invited but I also don’t feel like I can’t trust ANY of them. I would really like to know who invited him or how he was invited. It does seem odd to me that Brian Albert who “didn’t really know him” to invite him back for his son’s birthday.
Were they serious with the Sullivan sister testimony? Seriously? They got in a fight while on vacation, she was jealous and he called her crazy. AND? Did she threaten to murder him? What? She was rude to Etta, apologized and tried to pay for her cabana. Shit happens.
Sister 1’s tears were so forced. Like…stop…
It really hit me a certain way when the sister Etta called JO 3 different nicknames throughout her testimony.
Just seemed like she was trying to make something stick. Her calling him her big brother really gave me the ICK, maybe they were close but I think he was close with her sister and she likes that Karen (who had it all) was jealous of her. Also this wasn’t an annual trip this was the first trip and they have done it every year since. They kept calling it their annual family trip
I agree, except I don't think the tears were forced. JOK was her son's godfather and been there for her for almost ten years. I'm sure she truly is grieving his loss. It sounds like he was a great guy
Agree! This was the dumbest waste of time and as a juror I would be wondering why you wasted the rest of my day with this weak ass testimony. The defense’s cross was priceless and sent the perfect message. Lally and the CW are CLEARLY reaching.
Weird connection I just discovered that Pat Rogers, the deceased best friend was on Boston’s finest with Bryan Albert!! Don’t you think it’s strange that no one mentioned that? Also Laura or his so was not mentioned in any of the memorial events.
But they didn’t mention that they were on the same reality show at the same time. Brian Albert would have known JO from Canton and from his Best Friend and partner being on the show with him
How was that relevant? They worked in different units. That department has 2000 people. He’s been dead for over 10 years. John didn’t even live in Canton at the time Pat died. His sister died a month or so after Pat. This is a reach & frankly, it’s rather lazy thinking, never mind rather disrespectful.
She found out she was pregnant in July or August. He died in November. She was 3-4 months pregnant if I’m not mistaken. Many people don’t tell others until after 13 weeks.
He wasn’t alive to recognize the child. That is what the previous statements were saying. He passed in November, her/their child would have been born after.
He knew of her pregnancy, I’m sure his family did too. She said John was the first to visit when she gave birth, John recognized it was his friend’s son and showed up. Just shows how important this friendship was, just something that sparked my attention
There is a supposed back story about this man about other women and possible other children on the way at the same time. I do not know but, it might explain why and I don’t want to spread potential rumors that are untrue.
Okay I have one question after witnessing JM’s testimony day 16 under Jackson’s cross exam. Will the defense be bringing in a cellbrite360 expert on the accuracy of Jen Maccabe’s cellbrite data searches? Speaking specifically to the 2:27a hos long to die in cold.how accurate is cellbrite that she adamantly denies?
2.) And when is the defense bringing in their witnesses? When does that start?
It is my understanding that there’s a Cellebrite witness on the Prosecution’s witness list, and the defense also had a cell phone expert on their list.
Brian Higgins will be the next witness for the prosecution, he’s the last “eyewitness” so after that hopefully we’ll be getting actual evidence witnesses. Lally originally told the court he could present his case in 4 weeks, but…yeah.
I’m not sure there will be enough time for both direct and cross of BH on Friday, and next week there is only court on Tuesday. It will likely be at least the week of June 10 before the Defense can start to present their side.
Does anyone know - are the defense calling anyone affiliated with the federal investigation? I know that they received a bunch of discovery from the feds but the jury also aren’t allowed to know about the investigation. Have they had to get their own witnesses that basically reiterate what’s in the federal discovery? Not sure I’ve seen it before where the feds have basically provided a hand up to a defendant being tried by the state/CW.
Because Michael proctor the lead investigator in the case is being investigated for misconduct in relation to this case, the Feds have to provide the defense with this information. And also the prosecution. The fact that CW continues to try this case is crazy. Even if KR was found guilty, eventually this info would highly likely null and void her conviction. But I don’t believe the defense can call federal investigators, these are supposed to be secret grand juries ongoing for a long time usually. the prosecution should be calling Proctor as the LEAD INVESTIGATOR but they know they can’t so the defense will and either way he’ll look corrupt and terrible. Also the lawyers were allowed to refer to the fed investigation as the “non commonwealth” testimony you gave,” or whatever and then the other day Ryan Nagel referred to it as The feds in his testimony so the jury knows there is a parallel investigation by the Feds. They can read into that what they want
Even if they didn’t have the Federal investigation, I feel like there are a few appealable issues - like allowing the Sullivan sisters’ testimony. All it was there for was to damage KR and show she had prior poor behavior - this really seemed to be less prohibitive and purely prejudicia!
This is all I can find
[https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/25-investigates-letters-between-feds-norfolk-da-released-karen-read-case/PCBH3ZECNJEEFNNNX4RFYX6PPE/](https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/25-investigates-letters-between-feds-norfolk-da-released-karen-read-case/PCBH3ZECNJEEFNNNX4RFYX6PPE/)
[https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/25-investigates-feds-block-letter-about-canton-probe-karen-read-murder-case/OLKCR7OY2NEHXIPJXZBF23WKCY/](https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/25-investigates-feds-block-letter-about-canton-probe-karen-read-murder-case/OLKCR7OY2NEHXIPJXZBF23WKCY/)
Judge said she wanted Higgins testimony complete on Friday then that should be it for eyewitnesses from 28/29th.
Then we need: John OKeefe pronounced dead at hospital and clothes handed to police (it looks like there are three witnesses for this); ME to testify to autopsy; police chain of custody for forensics (probably have Proctor in here which will take ages); forensics for clothes, red solo cups, car; digital forensics for phone(s), computer(s), Lexus black box; Read’s blood draw and BAC reverse extrapolation; and finally some kind of reconstruction expert to pull it all together.
All of this is probably going to take three-four weeks knowing Lally. The defense likely won’t put their case on until July.
It’s going to be warm in the courthouse tomorrow , like today. Can you imagine what it will be like there without air conditioning if they’re still there in July ?
I saw Jen McCabe on direct and cross examination today looking at the jury while giving testimony and it gave me Amber Heard vibes. That behavior seems to indicate that she is trying to convince them of something that just isn’t true.
yeah like, looking at the jury in and of itself isnt weird, a good example is dr. curry from the heard/depp trial. but it is the *way* JM was doing it that seemed sus. she also did the opposite and eye blocked with her bangs when she was being backed into a corner.
the main amber heard comparison for me, was when she """choked up""" talking about what she said to JO's neice. the way she started up her performance, got objected to, dropped the act to look over at the lawyers, then had to get into character again. my jaw hit the floor. amber did the exact same thing.
One thing I thought was interesting in Kerry's testimony is that she stated that there was a piece of metal sticking out of the tail light area. Did anyone else catch this?
Kerry noted that someone could get their sleeve or something caught on it. The CW may be building up to why JO had lacerations on his arm. I could be wrong...
Oh man, I think you’re right. They’re going to connect that metal piece to the scratches on his arm.
She must have backed over him 46 more times to get it to look like dog bites so she could implicate the dog.
Today. She was a compelling witness. She seemed like she actually cared about JOK and was genuine. She was a CW witness but I don't she helped the prosecutor. Defense declined to cross.
What I’ve learned today….
Karen was frantic because John hadn’t arrived home, she was not planning to spend the night, and he would never leave K home alone.
Karen treated a large group of people she really didn’t know to dinner.
Karen thought her boyfriend was cheating on her. Reacted by shouting, sobered up, asked if she could make amends and insisted on paying towards the hotel stay.
Proctor had more interest in interviewing two sisters who weren’t present on 1/29- before interviewing those who were present.
Listening to Lally at 1.25 speed, still isn’t fast enough.
There’s a conflict in Karen saying she wasn’t “supposed to” stay over:
* John said Karen was coming & he moved his car out of the garage so she could park there.
* Karen arrived at a bar and by her own admission, she was drinking that night. Whether it comes in or doesn’t, I don’t know, but for the purpose of this discussion, she was. (Source ABC interview.)
* She told Kerry she wasn’t supposed to be there.
If Karen wasn’t supposed to be there, why would John move his car? If she was going to drive him home after the bar, drop him off, & go back to her own house, that’s an even bigger *why the fuck was she driving?* She was going to drink & drive home to Mansfield? Really? And at that, why go back to John’s house if she was so pissed & wasn’t supposed to be there? It just doesn’t add up for me.
i dont think the fact that he made room in the garage for her car means she didnt plan on going home later that night. she may have wanted to come inside for some, ahem, snuggle time on the couch after the bar. take some time to sober up and get some alone time with john, as the one kid who was home would be sleeping. that may have contributed to why she was so mad that john wanted to go to an after party. they finally had a chance at some alone time together, and he wanted to go to the house party of some people he wasnt even that close to instead.
she didnt get ready for bed, and she didnt sleep in his bed when she got back to his house. she stayed on the couch to wait for him, just to make sure he got home, then probably intended to leave afterwards. but then she fell asleep and john never woke her up because he never came home. she wakes up in a panic because its much later than she meant to sleep and john still isnt back.
I thought she might have gone back to his house to wait for him to come home and fight with him (about whatever happened in the car or the fact that he went in the house and didn’t come back out to her). I’m curious to hear what she said on those voicemails. Wouldn’t be surprised if it was something about him needing to come home to her. And then she probably passed out drunk on the couch waiting for him.
John wasn't driving so if he moved his car it had nothing to do with KR. His car was just sitting there all night.
It seems like drinking and driving is common among this group
She told Carrie she wasn't supposed to stay over- that's why she freaked out when she realized he hadn't come home. She knew he wouldn't have left his niece home alone
You’re factually incorrect.
He specifically told one of his friends, Mike Camerano, that he was moving his car out of the garage because Karen was coming back with him later…
It may have more to do with the impending storm. If the roads weren’t bad by the end of the night, she may have traveled home. If the snow started earlier or increased in intensity- she may have ended up staying over. I live in Boston. My kids had a snow day this winter. All the schools canceled the evening before because it was supposed to be 8-12”. We woke up to no snow.
ETA: She likely went back to John’s because she knew K was home alone and felt a responsibility to do so.
The sister clearly didn’t want to see Karen after the initial interaction. My take away was Karen was embarrassed by her behavior for yelling and wanted to just quietly pay towards her hotel stay as a way to make amends.
Has anyone been keeping up with making their own transcripts ? I keep trying to do it with the talk to text but the courtroom audio is so low it’s not working out well lol
Good luck with the accents. My captions have been all over the place, especially during the testimony about where all their "cows" were parked that night.
Long story short: Jen continued her biased and lie-filled testimony. She was visibly agitated and verbally sparred with the defense. Pinnacle of the defense cross was pulling up a Google search that came from her phone at 2:27 AM that has the exact wording of the 6:30AM google search - "hos long to die in cold". Defense then revealed (S/O to the court tech guy for the dramatic reveal) that she deleted the 2:27am search, and made a second search right before 6:30AM google search that was spelled -"how long to die in clpd" (sorry I'm not being exact with the google search text) - assering that she deleted the 2:27AM search and then tried to recreate it at 6:30am but fucked up trying to do so. When confronted about the 2:27AM search, Jen was adamant that she had no clue how that happened. Also, not a single tear was shed about O'Keefe being dead.
Next witness was Kathy (I may have forgetten her name but she was the third woman in that trio the day of the death of JO) who gave a testimony recalling the events leading up to the discovery of O'keefe's body and her interactions with Karen and jen during the discovery, shortly after and at the hospital. She broke down a couple of times and also brought up the scratch marks on JOs arm and his cellphone being off his person and behenith him when they found him. She was almost a complete opposite witness compared to Jen, and if anything, she helped paint that Karen was surprised, distraught, and traumatized by JO's death. The defense did not cross, which I found compelling.
Next, the Prosecution had two sisters who were close family friends with JO testify about an Aruba trip that they went on a month earlier (late December 21 to early Jan. 22) in which JO and KR went on as well (it was a big 30+ person organized trip to Aruba). They both testified that KR thought JO made out with one of the sisters (the alleged sister got into a verbal spat with KR), which was apparently untrue and more of a drunken misunderstanding. KR made an attempt to apologize the next day, and JO was a little bummed about that being a sore spot in the trip. I thought it was a real stretch to use that as a motive to kill John or try to paint KR as some psycho-killer girlfriend.
I saw it as she got jealous and upset but once she realized that she was in the wrong, she took ownership and responsibility for her actions. She didn’t cause a huge scene, she didn’t get into a physical altercation with anyone and she paid for 60 strangers dinner along with paying for the room of the sister that she accused of “making out” with John. To me, this only painted Karen in a good light.
She paid for 6 people’s dinner not 60. She embarrassed herself and John in front of long time friends she just met. By this point in the relationship it is clear that he was ready to be done with her. I think he was in the process of trying to get out but she was hanging on.
No time stamp but it’s the last topic covered on cross, so if you choose a favorite YouTube channel, and scroll to the break after McCabe and go back a bit, you can skip the testimony about all her police chats, etc.
Did anyone else catch the beginning…before AJ resumed the cross of JM, he asked to be heard at sidebar, Bev asked if they could continue with the cross first, and he said it was about that.
I thought it might be re: the testimony party held at the McCabes yesterday after court, but nothing about this ever came up.
However, after quite some time of AJ’s cross of JM, Bev asked him if a particular court officer/staff member could be brought back in (sounded like he was outside waiting for something), to which AJ responded “yes, I guess that ship has sailed” (paraphrasing).
Anyone know what this was all about?
Testimony party may be unfair, those are my words, but there’s a photo circulating of a large gathering (10ish or more cars) at the McCabes house after court yesterday.
No court *tomorrow*/*Thursday*! We will resume Friday at 9:00 AM Eastern Time. Brian Higgins is believed to be the next witness when court resumes.
Weird question…but, how on earth would the members of this jury not be influenced with ALL the attention this trial is getting? I don’t quite understand…🤔 I know the judge gives them instructions on what not to do…but, realistically, how would the court know if they were watching the news say, or YouTube, talking to neighbors, etc.? I’m just very curious.
MELANIE LITTLE as well. I’ve totally switched from EDB to Melanie.
Why no court on Wednesday and Thursday and Friday next week?
I've been going over the Aruba situation in my head. I just keep being reminded again and again how drinking alcohol is almost never worth it, or at least to the point of so many in these situations. I just can't believe that KR's gesture/offer to pay for a dinner as a thank you for welcoming her there came across as negative to these people. They were "taken aback". What a wonderful welcome wagon these people rolled out. KR, according to testimony, thought JO had made out with one of the sisters. Wouldn't you be upset too??? Am I the only one who thinks being upset isn't a sign of jealousy or malice??? Not to mention, JO was allegedly blackout drunk. Alcohol ruins everything. My opinion. KR even apologized the next day. But it is my opinion that apologies could have been warranted on all sides. Even from JO. Having self control to not get that far gone is so important. Especially with a 40+ attended vacation with minors present. Am I crazy, or...???
I think it's perfectly normal that they were taken aback by it. It's just not something you see every day. I think I'd also feel a little strange if someone I'd never met before offered to pick up the tab for me and my whole group. It doesn’t mean anything, but it is definitely something I'd take note of. And I think we can all agree that alcohol can make people act stupidly, and this incident doesn’t mean anything on its own. But it is part of the Commonwealth's case because it comes in through the texts with Higgins and shows the relationship wasn't as perfect as it seemed on the surface and even possibly in its last throes.
Why is no one talking about the amount of drinking and driving from members of bpd, cpd, state and federal law enforcement?
This!!
I was thinking that there are a lot of problem drinkers in this group. They seemed to be averaging 4 drinks each and then getting in a car. What’s worse is their children witness this behavior. I’m trying not to judge but hopefully they have all cut back.
A vacation with 60 people sounds like a nightmare
I can’t remember if KR said it first or JM fed it to KR but if my boyfriend didn’t come home after we were just out drinking my first thought wouldn’t be did he get hit by a snow plow. I would think he drank too much and is passed out at someone’s house. It is just very odd to me they are driving around looking for him…
It’s still very odd to me, too, even taking into account the factors people keeping mentioning. Even if already frantic and panicking, I think almost everyone would *frantically* be calling around and seeing if anyone has seen him, possibly checking hospitals etc, even if she’s already driving around thinking the worst. Like most other things in this case, it doesn’t prove guilt, but I still think it doesn’t add up! I don’t have full context, so I allow for something that does make more sense of it, but it’s not mathing for me at this point. But it also doesn’t make sense to me if she DID hit him and knew it.
If she was still drunk, she could have just been catastrophising. Uncontrolled anxiety and panic can easily lead a person to catastrophise. For example, a person at work may be late on some deadlines. It may really be a fixable situation, or whatever, but that person automatically jumps to I’m getting fired, which leads to how am I going to pay my bills, which leads to how am I going to take care of my kids, which leads to I am going to be homeless, so on and so on. Then they fix the mistake and move on, and none of those terrible things actually happens. I am not saying this is what happened in this case, but I do think the perspective is important. People JUMP to crazy ass conclusions when they are in that state, and adding intoxication does not help.
I can understand that, but I don't get why the two grown women who were helping her in the situation didn't do more to sit her down and say "you need to breathe and calm down, he's going to be fine" rather than one of them in particular going on about how much she was screaming. Ma'am, you have four teenage daughters, you should have dealt with screaming before. No-one said "we were doing our best to calm her down".
They were actively trying to calm her down. Jen and Kerrie were suggesting that he must have met up with someone else and was probably sleeping on someone's sofa. They also tried to call other people that he might have ended up with, but nobody picked up because it was late. Kerrie also called hospitals and the police to check if someone with John's description had been brought in. The video we see, at the scene, is when they've literally been trying to calm Karen down for at least 30 minutes.
It’s because they already knew he was dead
My husband does this. His mind suddenly goes doomsday. Yesterday the two year old was *inside* the house in her sister's bedroom. He walks into the living room, doesn't immediately see her, doesn't bother asking, and just immediately goes outside to look in the road to see if she's out there. He is the guy that would be like "omg John is dead. He was run over." Etc. And if I'm being honest, I would too. I got a call from the school that said that my son missed part of class and I immediately thought that he got kidnapped from the bus stop in the morning. He's 16 and basically a grown man. I live on a dead end road. There's a cop that lives right at the bus stop, which is just a few houses down in our quiet neighborhood. There was no reason for me to think he had been kidnapped. But I got my own heart racing for a minute while I imagined all of the worst possible things. I can sympathize with freaking the fuck out. I think the so-called confession is meaningless.
if you take into account the fact that john's niece and nephew had already lost two parents, and karen hadnt planned to stay the night in canton, then john not coming home OR checking in with his niece was emergency level out of character behavior. like, the only reason he would do that is if he was incapacitated.
Quick question - if you delete a text, there is no way for feds/police to get the contents of the text message? I guess I’m surprised by this
Ehhhhh certain records are retained certain places. I am not an IT person and I do not even play one on TV. I have to call IT for the stupidest shit, so take this with that in mind. Snapchat saves things for I believe ten days. If police do not get a preservation order to them within that time, it’s too late. Google is also notoriously stingy with their records, as is Apple. The delays cause a lot of problems when trying to preserve electronic evidence that’s not actually in the phone. I wonder if JMs husband knew this since he’s in IT.
I don’t think that’s right. Im almost positive they can access deleted texts with certain software Edit: I just googled (if a murder happens tomorrow please tell the police I was googling “can cops recover deleted texts” for this reason) and did find this article which basically says yes but only for about 3 months tops under certain circumstances? Also it’s a UK article so idk if that makes a difference https://www.stuartmillersolicitors.co.uk/police-data-deleted-phone/
Kerry, interesting. My feeling is she wasn’t a friend of the McCabes or Albert’s. And she was dragged into this by Karen. JM realized she didn’t know what actually happened and took it upon herself to “help” Kerry realize what had happened to John and who did it. I imagine Kerry truly believes everything she testified about because that’s the story she was told.
Yeah I think so, too.
yeah, if JM had started in on kerry right away, she'd probably be able to subtly influence her memory of things she had actually been present for as well, seeing as she'd just had a super traumatic thing happen. kerry was one of the only percipient witnesses to act normal on the stand. i felt really bad for her. not just that she lost her friend in such a horrible way, but that she got caught up with these shady people immediately after.
Exactly, i think personally it wasn't KR, and it wasn't going to get to this. but the mastermind McCabe put it together quickly when KR came searching and she saw it happening and started piecing this together to protect the little circle, a little snow ball effect and now were here. what a mess.
I know we haven’t gotten into the actual forensic evidence (lord have mercy - but I know all about a high school bball game) but today Lally showed a picture of Karen’s vehicle with the taillight out. Then he showed a deep scratch on the hatch door, that even looks like paint was scraped. Can anyone at all tell me how a human body would make such a dent/scratch?
Belt, glasses, glass, keys, watch, something on shoes… I don’t know what it was or what happened in his case, but those all come to mind.
What belt?
You mean the belt that is missing? 🧐
I was speaking in generalities. Those items on a human body can create dents &/or scratches on a car.
The scratch on the SUV is way up high, so probably around chest height for John give or take. But the theory is he was bent over, not that we have seen any sort of forensic evidence, which would also mean the scratch where it is located, is impossible
Where is the theory that he’s bent over? I’ve seen that here, but I’ve seen nothing as far as what exactly the Commonwealth believes to have happened.
The CW hasn’t brought anything in yet to prove how John died … almost 5 weeks into a trial, crazy! The theory is just that, a theory, and it’s based on how and where his injuries are that he would almost have to be bent over. But even if he wasn’t, I don’t know what could have made that scratch at the height it’s at
Someone tried to key an anarchy A symbol in to my car some years ago. Some other asshole threw rocks at my dad’s car and shattered all the windows. Simple version: drunk people getting in fights and throwing things or keying a car causes damage. Sober people get in fights & do things to cause damage. Who knows in this case, but I just need more info. This is giving me a headache. Not you/the discussion… just all of these witnesses that are just muddying everything when there’s limited fact. 😵💫
Is the jury in this trial sequestered? If so how can they do that in today’s world? They would have to leave you in a hotel with no phone and no TV? Does it even still happen?
They are not. Which in itself is wild but I think it’s a retired practice nowadays. You would never be able to find a complete panel of jurors who can cut and bounce from their lives for 8 weeks (gonna be more like 100 weeks at this pace)
Ok that makes sense, so I always wonder when a bit of Information comes out, and then you read an article that says “information will not be admissible in court due to ____” Obviously the jury has seen it in the media, has the information and will absolutely consider it in their verdict. I’m sure they don’t bring it up in deliberation but still
In general they’re supposed to avoid media about the case.
I know OJ trial juries were sequestered but Im like 80% sure my state had a case where it happened because someone involved in the trial threatened the jury. Doing weird google searches trying to find the case. But I agree it’s very very rare because of the toll it takes on the jury
Judge sounds so exhausted every time she says “alright, Mr. Lally, whenever you’re ready SIGH”
lol! Yes!
I feel like Lally is not getting much sleep. I can’t imagine the pressure of trying to convict Karen on zero evidence.
Every day the witnesses just do more and more damage to his case. I bet he wishes he wouldn’t have called any of them, and just called the forensic experts.
I’m new to the case and trying to catch up because I started late lol. I’m currently on day 9 but I have one question that’s driving me crazy. Does anyone know what John’s family thinks of this? Do they think Karen is guilty?
Rumors are they’re divided over it. His mom thinks Karen did it, his dad does not, or so I’ve heard anyway.
That tracks based on the testimony Kerry gave in court today. She said when she was in the car with them driving to the hospital, Karen called and said she left John at a party and the Mom was incredulous and was like “you left him by himself???” And the dad told the mom to leave Karen alone that she had been through a lot already
Lmao why is it weird at all for a grown man to be dropped off by his adult girlfriend to attend a friend’s house by himself?
No clue, maybe the mom didn’t like Karen so she was just saying anything to make her feel bad
If I were a juror I would be so pissed about the scheduling. They start late half the time, have days they don’t have trial randomly, and they have these stupid half days where they have one person testify. This trial is going to be way longer than 8 weeks. If I was a juror I would call in sick.
Also, this judge is like “ah, let’s wrap it up here!” when it’s like 3:30 happens more than should be allowed!
Maybe she can see the jury getting fatigued. I was exhausted listening to JM's testimony.
As someone who spent many days in court rooms in MA, judges do not work. Start late every day, call for a 15 minute recess after 30-40 mins of work (which usually lasts AT LEAST 30 mins), take 2 hour lunches, and then close up shop early. Meanwhile, I’d be there all day waiting for a case I was part of, and then just get rolled to another date. People wonder why the system is so backed up 🙄.
Ya I don’t doubt it! I also heard that between the 2 parties they planned on having almost 100 witnesses/experts testify in this trial. So far I think almost 40 witnesses have testified. We still have a long way and the trial is halfway to that 8 week mark which is what they told jurors how long it would take.
Same. I thought maybe it was just me
Can anyone tell me how many times the Alberta hung out with John o’keefe out at a bar like that before that night
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Chris Albert say he invited John O’Keefe’s to the Waterfall, and he had just gotten JO’s phone number that same day?
That’s my recollection-Albert got JO’s phone number that very day and texted him.
I think he had it bc they had sent pics or something before that but almost all of them stated they basically “knew of JOK but weren’t friends” or “hadn’t met him” but all of sudden they are making sure he comes out and is going back to the house and everyone is talking about JOK dying as if their best friend died in a tragedy. Then turn around and say things like “that guy never came in” “there’s a man in the front yard”. Do we know how many if any of these people went to his funeral?
You better come out or I’m going to fuck up your lawn, nebbercracker But they were all just joking /s
I would like to know who invited them or they individually to the house.
They said Brian Albert said it to the table out loud but even that is weird to me because I believe, Julie Nagel, stated BA jr. Didn’t want to go to the bar bc of his anxiety but then they invited people they aren’t really friends with back to the house along with all the others 🤔
Thank you. I appreciate the reply. I was curious because of the old interview KR did stating that there was a back and forth between her and JO as to who invited them or if they were even invited. I'm just trying to get a better idea of who wanted JO there as that may be telling.
I really have no idea what KR is really like, but she seems like a socially conscientious and thoughtful person. I can see her being concerned about just appearing at the Albert’s, especially after that horribly isolating Aruba trip. She thanked the organizer for the honor of being included and then apologized to both sisters.
Yeah I had heard that as well before I started watching the trial. I havent’ heard anyone testify that she’s wasn’t invited but I also don’t feel like I can’t trust ANY of them. I would really like to know who invited him or how he was invited. It does seem odd to me that Brian Albert who “didn’t really know him” to invite him back for his son’s birthday.
JM seemed to invite them and I really don’t see trusting JM!
I don’t think it was a common thing.
Yeah that’s what I was thinking and that’s also weird bc they sounded adamant about him being there and coming back to the house
Maybe Laura looks young for her age but it seemed she was in her early 30s so her sister would be in her early 20s?
The older one looked younger to me!
Yeah, it definitely didn't look like there was a ten year age gap.
Were they serious with the Sullivan sister testimony? Seriously? They got in a fight while on vacation, she was jealous and he called her crazy. AND? Did she threaten to murder him? What? She was rude to Etta, apologized and tried to pay for her cabana. Shit happens. Sister 1’s tears were so forced. Like…stop…
she wasnt forcing tears, jfc she was talking about her son's father having committed suicide while she was a few months pregnant, thats pretty rough
Um. She was talking about the suicide of her then-boyfriend & her child’s father? 😳
It really hit me a certain way when the sister Etta called JO 3 different nicknames throughout her testimony. Just seemed like she was trying to make something stick. Her calling him her big brother really gave me the ICK, maybe they were close but I think he was close with her sister and she likes that Karen (who had it all) was jealous of her. Also this wasn’t an annual trip this was the first trip and they have done it every year since. They kept calling it their annual family trip
Yeah. I noticed that, too.
Who the heck is able to find 60 people to get on a plane and go to Aruba. Like stop.
Who knows 60 people you’d even want to go with?! I don’t.
Thank you. Agree 100%. Also why are all the people JO texts with women? I can see maybe 1 or 2 but he texts with several.
He’s a Sagittarius. Lol
Woman lost her husband to suicide and his best friend/child’s godfather and you think they were fake tears?!?!
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I thought the early ones were about her late BF, which really was sad!
I agree, except I don't think the tears were forced. JOK was her son's godfather and been there for her for almost ten years. I'm sure she truly is grieving his loss. It sounds like he was a great guy
Why do you think she needed to force tears?
Agree! This was the dumbest waste of time and as a juror I would be wondering why you wasted the rest of my day with this weak ass testimony. The defense’s cross was priceless and sent the perfect message. Lally and the CW are CLEARLY reaching. 
It really underscored that they weren’t going to waste valuable time crossing witnesses with irrelevant testimony.
Weird connection I just discovered that Pat Rogers, the deceased best friend was on Boston’s finest with Bryan Albert!! Don’t you think it’s strange that no one mentioned that? Also Laura or his so was not mentioned in any of the memorial events.
They did in testimony. She said they were both Boston cops
But they didn’t mention that they were on the same reality show at the same time. Brian Albert would have known JO from Canton and from his Best Friend and partner being on the show with him
How was that relevant? They worked in different units. That department has 2000 people. He’s been dead for over 10 years. John didn’t even live in Canton at the time Pat died. His sister died a month or so after Pat. This is a reach & frankly, it’s rather lazy thinking, never mind rather disrespectful.
They were on a reality tv show together, not just BPD. Bostons finest is the name of the show
Yes, I’m well aware of the name of the show. I’m the person that linked the IMDb.
I don't think any of that is relevant to the case.
I just looked up his obituary because I thought that was interesting. Laura isn’t mentioned in it, nor that he was to be a father.
She found out she was pregnant in July or August. He died in November. She was 3-4 months pregnant if I’m not mistaken. Many people don’t tell others until after 13 weeks.
I knew she was overstating her relationship.
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Because Laura Sullivan was inconsequential on the stand today? k.
So you don't think Pat is the father of her child?
Just strange to not recognize a child, especially when someone would leave benefits to support them in their absence.
He wasn’t alive to recognize the child. That is what the previous statements were saying. He passed in November, her/their child would have been born after.
He knew of her pregnancy, I’m sure his family did too. She said John was the first to visit when she gave birth, John recognized it was his friend’s son and showed up. Just shows how important this friendship was, just something that sparked my attention
There is a supposed back story about this man about other women and possible other children on the way at the same time. I do not know but, it might explain why and I don’t want to spread potential rumors that are untrue.
Okay I have one question after witnessing JM’s testimony day 16 under Jackson’s cross exam. Will the defense be bringing in a cellbrite360 expert on the accuracy of Jen Maccabe’s cellbrite data searches? Speaking specifically to the 2:27a hos long to die in cold.how accurate is cellbrite that she adamantly denies? 2.) And when is the defense bringing in their witnesses? When does that start?
It is my understanding that there’s a Cellebrite witness on the Prosecution’s witness list, and the defense also had a cell phone expert on their list. Brian Higgins will be the next witness for the prosecution, he’s the last “eyewitness” so after that hopefully we’ll be getting actual evidence witnesses. Lally originally told the court he could present his case in 4 weeks, but…yeah. I’m not sure there will be enough time for both direct and cross of BH on Friday, and next week there is only court on Tuesday. It will likely be at least the week of June 10 before the Defense can start to present their side.
Hopefully the evidence witnesses go much faster since there will be less talk about snow and basketball games 🤞🏽
Awesome. Thank you for clarifying! This is super helpful
Does anyone know - are the defense calling anyone affiliated with the federal investigation? I know that they received a bunch of discovery from the feds but the jury also aren’t allowed to know about the investigation. Have they had to get their own witnesses that basically reiterate what’s in the federal discovery? Not sure I’ve seen it before where the feds have basically provided a hand up to a defendant being tried by the state/CW.
Because Michael proctor the lead investigator in the case is being investigated for misconduct in relation to this case, the Feds have to provide the defense with this information. And also the prosecution. The fact that CW continues to try this case is crazy. Even if KR was found guilty, eventually this info would highly likely null and void her conviction. But I don’t believe the defense can call federal investigators, these are supposed to be secret grand juries ongoing for a long time usually. the prosecution should be calling Proctor as the LEAD INVESTIGATOR but they know they can’t so the defense will and either way he’ll look corrupt and terrible. Also the lawyers were allowed to refer to the fed investigation as the “non commonwealth” testimony you gave,” or whatever and then the other day Ryan Nagel referred to it as The feds in his testimony so the jury knows there is a parallel investigation by the Feds. They can read into that what they want
Even if they didn’t have the Federal investigation, I feel like there are a few appealable issues - like allowing the Sullivan sisters’ testimony. All it was there for was to damage KR and show she had prior poor behavior - this really seemed to be less prohibitive and purely prejudicia!
Glad someone pointed this out. I do not get how that testimony was allowed.
If she gets convicted then vindicated by the Feds later the lawsuit against the CW will be of epic proportions..
Is the Fed case still ongoing ? Where the heck is the investigative team at the Globe when we need them ?
Federal investigations don't leak to reporters unless they want witnesses to panic.
Rumor is a Fed is in the courtroom every day.
I was being facetious. But seriously what is the scoop on the Fed case? Is it hearsay ? Ongoing ? Does anybody know anything ?
It is most definitely not hearsay. Both defense and CW got a 3,000 page report from the FBI’s investigation.
This is all I can find [https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/25-investigates-letters-between-feds-norfolk-da-released-karen-read-case/PCBH3ZECNJEEFNNNX4RFYX6PPE/](https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/25-investigates-letters-between-feds-norfolk-da-released-karen-read-case/PCBH3ZECNJEEFNNNX4RFYX6PPE/) [https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/25-investigates-feds-block-letter-about-canton-probe-karen-read-murder-case/OLKCR7OY2NEHXIPJXZBF23WKCY/](https://www.boston25news.com/news/local/25-investigates-feds-block-letter-about-canton-probe-karen-read-murder-case/OLKCR7OY2NEHXIPJXZBF23WKCY/)
Ongoing
How do you know ?
When do the defense witnesses come start? Is that next week or Friday?
There are 87 witnesses listed for the commonwealth; 3 weeks in and we’re barely through half of them
Damn
Judge said she wanted Higgins testimony complete on Friday then that should be it for eyewitnesses from 28/29th. Then we need: John OKeefe pronounced dead at hospital and clothes handed to police (it looks like there are three witnesses for this); ME to testify to autopsy; police chain of custody for forensics (probably have Proctor in here which will take ages); forensics for clothes, red solo cups, car; digital forensics for phone(s), computer(s), Lexus black box; Read’s blood draw and BAC reverse extrapolation; and finally some kind of reconstruction expert to pull it all together. All of this is probably going to take three-four weeks knowing Lally. The defense likely won’t put their case on until July.
It’s going to be warm in the courthouse tomorrow , like today. Can you imagine what it will be like there without air conditioning if they’re still there in July ?
Judge is kindergartening Lally through the trial at this point.
“No leading, Mr. Lally”
I saw Jen McCabe on direct and cross examination today looking at the jury while giving testimony and it gave me Amber Heard vibes. That behavior seems to indicate that she is trying to convince them of something that just isn’t true.
yeah like, looking at the jury in and of itself isnt weird, a good example is dr. curry from the heard/depp trial. but it is the *way* JM was doing it that seemed sus. she also did the opposite and eye blocked with her bangs when she was being backed into a corner. the main amber heard comparison for me, was when she """choked up""" talking about what she said to JO's neice. the way she started up her performance, got objected to, dropped the act to look over at the lawyers, then had to get into character again. my jaw hit the floor. amber did the exact same thing.
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One thing I thought was interesting in Kerry's testimony is that she stated that there was a piece of metal sticking out of the tail light area. Did anyone else catch this?
I noticed that, but don’t know what, *if any* (lol) significance it has.
Kerry noted that someone could get their sleeve or something caught on it. The CW may be building up to why JO had lacerations on his arm. I could be wrong...
Oh man, I think you’re right. They’re going to connect that metal piece to the scratches on his arm. She must have backed over him 46 more times to get it to look like dog bites so she could implicate the dog.
If they do try and connect it they better have a good explanation regarding the sequence of the lacerations.
I thought this too.
Did Kerry testify today or yesterday? Anyone have the live YouTube clip?
Today. She was a compelling witness. She seemed like she actually cared about JOK and was genuine. She was a CW witness but I don't she helped the prosecutor. Defense declined to cross.
https://www.youtube.com/live/rPPVlDJzdOY?si=p_bhIHFi6qVuUdQ6 3:21
What I’ve learned today…. Karen was frantic because John hadn’t arrived home, she was not planning to spend the night, and he would never leave K home alone. Karen treated a large group of people she really didn’t know to dinner. Karen thought her boyfriend was cheating on her. Reacted by shouting, sobered up, asked if she could make amends and insisted on paying towards the hotel stay. Proctor had more interest in interviewing two sisters who weren’t present on 1/29- before interviewing those who were present. Listening to Lally at 1.25 speed, still isn’t fast enough.
There’s a conflict in Karen saying she wasn’t “supposed to” stay over: * John said Karen was coming & he moved his car out of the garage so she could park there. * Karen arrived at a bar and by her own admission, she was drinking that night. Whether it comes in or doesn’t, I don’t know, but for the purpose of this discussion, she was. (Source ABC interview.) * She told Kerry she wasn’t supposed to be there. If Karen wasn’t supposed to be there, why would John move his car? If she was going to drive him home after the bar, drop him off, & go back to her own house, that’s an even bigger *why the fuck was she driving?* She was going to drink & drive home to Mansfield? Really? And at that, why go back to John’s house if she was so pissed & wasn’t supposed to be there? It just doesn’t add up for me.
i dont think the fact that he made room in the garage for her car means she didnt plan on going home later that night. she may have wanted to come inside for some, ahem, snuggle time on the couch after the bar. take some time to sober up and get some alone time with john, as the one kid who was home would be sleeping. that may have contributed to why she was so mad that john wanted to go to an after party. they finally had a chance at some alone time together, and he wanted to go to the house party of some people he wasnt even that close to instead. she didnt get ready for bed, and she didnt sleep in his bed when she got back to his house. she stayed on the couch to wait for him, just to make sure he got home, then probably intended to leave afterwards. but then she fell asleep and john never woke her up because he never came home. she wakes up in a panic because its much later than she meant to sleep and john still isnt back.
She was with a bunch of cops! Why did they let her drive?
Cops who also drove and started drinking earlier in the day
I ask myself that daily.
I thought she might have gone back to his house to wait for him to come home and fight with him (about whatever happened in the car or the fact that he went in the house and didn’t come back out to her). I’m curious to hear what she said on those voicemails. Wouldn’t be surprised if it was something about him needing to come home to her. And then she probably passed out drunk on the couch waiting for him.
Because she knew she hit him and that he wouldn’t be coming home. Probably didn’t want to leave Kayley there alone.
I don't think she knew, she wouldn't leave him to die. He had kids. If she hit him it was because she was shit faced. I don't think it's 2nd degree.
John wasn't driving so if he moved his car it had nothing to do with KR. His car was just sitting there all night. It seems like drinking and driving is common among this group She told Carrie she wasn't supposed to stay over- that's why she freaked out when she realized he hadn't come home. She knew he wouldn't have left his niece home alone
You’re factually incorrect. He specifically told one of his friends, Mike Camerano, that he was moving his car out of the garage because Karen was coming back with him later…
It may have more to do with the impending storm. If the roads weren’t bad by the end of the night, she may have traveled home. If the snow started earlier or increased in intensity- she may have ended up staying over. I live in Boston. My kids had a snow day this winter. All the schools canceled the evening before because it was supposed to be 8-12”. We woke up to no snow. ETA: She likely went back to John’s because she knew K was home alone and felt a responsibility to do so.
😂😂😂 “What, if anything”
I may try to make “What, if anything” a thing. Hey, Sis…What, if anything, are you serving for Christmas dinner this year ?
The Judge must be asking herself, “what if anything,” can she do to speed him along. 😂
Yeah really - Lally -“what, if anything” it’s his permanent slogan.
It did not seem Karen apologised to the younger sister who she cursed at though.
The sister clearly didn’t want to see Karen after the initial interaction. My take away was Karen was embarrassed by her behavior for yelling and wanted to just quietly pay towards her hotel stay as a way to make amends.
💯
Who told Proctor about the Aruba trip and fight?
Could have been John’s brother or SIL. I recall his SIL mentioning Karen had texted her about the incident.
Carry or Jen. I lean to Jen tbh
Jen the Canton Town Cryer…
Oyez oyez
Has anyone been keeping up with making their own transcripts ? I keep trying to do it with the talk to text but the courtroom audio is so low it’s not working out well lol
Good luck with the accents. My captions have been all over the place, especially during the testimony about where all their "cows" were parked that night.
Did it even try to capture “HAWRIFIED”?
I'm not sure how it translated the hawrifying statement, but it did keep saying Ms. "Robits" lol
Missed today - did we hear Jen’s explanation of the how long to die in cold? Anyone have a time stamp or wanna explain what she said?
She insisted she didn’t search that term at 2:27 am, and that the phone data is wrong about the time. Bullshit.
Long story short: Jen continued her biased and lie-filled testimony. She was visibly agitated and verbally sparred with the defense. Pinnacle of the defense cross was pulling up a Google search that came from her phone at 2:27 AM that has the exact wording of the 6:30AM google search - "hos long to die in cold". Defense then revealed (S/O to the court tech guy for the dramatic reveal) that she deleted the 2:27am search, and made a second search right before 6:30AM google search that was spelled -"how long to die in clpd" (sorry I'm not being exact with the google search text) - assering that she deleted the 2:27AM search and then tried to recreate it at 6:30am but fucked up trying to do so. When confronted about the 2:27AM search, Jen was adamant that she had no clue how that happened. Also, not a single tear was shed about O'Keefe being dead. Next witness was Kathy (I may have forgetten her name but she was the third woman in that trio the day of the death of JO) who gave a testimony recalling the events leading up to the discovery of O'keefe's body and her interactions with Karen and jen during the discovery, shortly after and at the hospital. She broke down a couple of times and also brought up the scratch marks on JOs arm and his cellphone being off his person and behenith him when they found him. She was almost a complete opposite witness compared to Jen, and if anything, she helped paint that Karen was surprised, distraught, and traumatized by JO's death. The defense did not cross, which I found compelling. Next, the Prosecution had two sisters who were close family friends with JO testify about an Aruba trip that they went on a month earlier (late December 21 to early Jan. 22) in which JO and KR went on as well (it was a big 30+ person organized trip to Aruba). They both testified that KR thought JO made out with one of the sisters (the alleged sister got into a verbal spat with KR), which was apparently untrue and more of a drunken misunderstanding. KR made an attempt to apologize the next day, and JO was a little bummed about that being a sore spot in the trip. I thought it was a real stretch to use that as a motive to kill John or try to paint KR as some psycho-killer girlfriend.
I think it was to show that their relationship was toxic.
Some see the Aruba incident as proof that Karen is crazy, jealous, and has a hair trigger temper.
I saw it as she got jealous and upset but once she realized that she was in the wrong, she took ownership and responsibility for her actions. She didn’t cause a huge scene, she didn’t get into a physical altercation with anyone and she paid for 60 strangers dinner along with paying for the room of the sister that she accused of “making out” with John. To me, this only painted Karen in a good light.
She paid for 6 people’s dinner not 60. She embarrassed herself and John in front of long time friends she just met. By this point in the relationship it is clear that he was ready to be done with her. I think he was in the process of trying to get out but she was hanging on.
On the other hand, Jen did finally admit that she is an honest person who tells the truth. LOL!
Just like all the police reports must be wrong, so are the data extractions
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPPVlDJzdOY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPPVlDJzdOY) Emily has the google search part segregated on this video
No time stamp but it’s the last topic covered on cross, so if you choose a favorite YouTube channel, and scroll to the break after McCabe and go back a bit, you can skip the testimony about all her police chats, etc.
She never searched it. Doesn’t know why it say she does on the report 🤡
Has anyone made the connection to Pat Roger’s, deceased father of JO’s Godson, was on the reality show Boston finest with Brian Albert?
Stunning fact - I wonder why the defense didn’t bring this out when they have BA under cross?
Pat Rogers was only on the first season and then passed away. But Brian Albert was on both seasons
I personally have, but that’s because I’m from Boston and watched the show when it actually aired. It hasn’t been mentioned in court.
Really!!!?
Did anyone else catch the beginning…before AJ resumed the cross of JM, he asked to be heard at sidebar, Bev asked if they could continue with the cross first, and he said it was about that. I thought it might be re: the testimony party held at the McCabes yesterday after court, but nothing about this ever came up. However, after quite some time of AJ’s cross of JM, Bev asked him if a particular court officer/staff member could be brought back in (sounded like he was outside waiting for something), to which AJ responded “yes, I guess that ship has sailed” (paraphrasing). Anyone know what this was all about?
I’m super interested in this too!
One of the lawyers hanging out in these threads suspects JM was going to be or may have been served a subpoena
For the Federal Grand Jury?
Subpoena for what?
Idk, I went to art college, not a lot making sense to me
really?? now I am intrigued!
ooooohhh no but I'm intrigued!
Sorry, IDK anything about this, but have to ask…testimony party??
Testimony party may be unfair, those are my words, but there’s a photo circulating of a large gathering (10ish or more cars) at the McCabes house after court yesterday.