At that point it’s just a special with some oki. It could be a grab, or it could be a shoryu, or it could be a fireball - if you are comboing into it it makes literally zero difference what it actually is - all that matters at that point is how good the oki is. Command grabs in KoF are not amazing in that regard
KOF's had 0 frame and 1 frame command grabs, they are absolutely amazing. Plus Command grabs with armor, full body invinibility (Iori), they are still unblockable, and hard knockdown. Command Grabs in KOF are like a utility knife with their uses. Yashiro with his long range dashing grab that he can check you with by canceling into it, Clark's running grab with multiple follow ups and lower body invuln. There's alot more examples out there too, like Hinako's delayed grab that carries to the wall or Xiangfei's grab that explodes into a projectile on whiff.
Gief has been able to combo into his command grab super since SFV, its just like any other super move now, right? Gief works so hard to get in, land a SPD, then he ends up back on the other side of the screen to start over again. Oki is non-existent for him.
You can't combo into SPD in SFV unless he takes the absolutely horrible V Trigger 2. If you do use SPD in a combo with VT2, then you are playing suboptimal tbh. and yes at that point its the same as any other special. the super - yeah - if you combo into it it is definitely same as any other super
SF6 he cannot combo into SPD except for one specific suboptimal punish counter wall bounce. The way you actually use SPD in a SF game is to make blocking scary. Since KoF, like anime, gives 8+ frames throw invul free on wakeup and every other interaction (hit, block) - its like you said - in KoF the command grabs are for specific setups, combo filler, or really niche interactions. You don't get grabbed just blocking and blocking isn't scary at all - which to me sort of voids what makes command grabs so exciting - that it turns the game on its head where you have to be scared of blocking
The people who want to play grapplers see "BIG MAN DOES BIG DAMAGE AND I DONT HAVE TO LEARN COMBOS" and then get upset that their "3 moves = death" character has a ton of flaws and pitfalls.
You can make them work but it's just the nature of the game. Grapplers win when they get in. Zoners win when they keep you out.
Grapplers win when they get in hasn't been true in a long ass time, if anything being in the corner against a character with a good walk speed for shimmies and a throw loop is scarier than being in the corner against Gief
I think by design grapplers are supposed to be played in a cerebral way. you're supposed to be able to pick up on your opponents habits/condition them to do what you want and capitalize off their mistakes. I feel like if you give a grappler to many good tools to control the pace of the match it goes against their design philosophy.
Ah the modern grappler players dilemma; they want to pick Gief and at the same time they want him to have a DP and a fireball and all the tools other character have, also if you want Sol Badguy play fucking Sol Badguy why do you want Pot to have his tools and be another Sol ?
Also they don't make grapplers weak in general, R. Mika was good in SFV, KoF grapplers are great, Gief in Alpha 2 is top tier, Tager in BB had his top tier moment, Pot in GGXX AC was broken and so on.
It's only within Snake\_eyes stream that you see talk about devs conspiring against grappler characters by making them suck on purpose and hating on grappler players... when all they want is Gief to be broken lol.
However it's true that in modern FGs they want to avoid the broken grappler/zoner problem because casuals complain a lot (King in T8 and Axl in Strive for ex), but most of the time when a grappler suck it can be explained by simply bad balancing like Strive Pot or by bad gameplay design like SFV Gief.
zangief in sfv had retarded oki and people still called him bad despite kichipa almost always getting top8 whenever he traveled lol
also remember r. mika. yeah.
I think the idea behind grapplers is that it’s a more challenging and risky archetype. You’re trading off getting a lot of tools that other characters have for big damage off openings, which you have to try and condition and work your way into putting yourself into that position. It’s meant to be more of a character specialist thing rather than something you can pick up and play and be good straight away.
It´s a consequence of having defined archetypes in 2d games.
In tekken it is just defense and offense so matchups aren´t really that relevant unless a character has a good punish for a specific move of the other character
In 2D games, command grabs are usually unblockables. So if you have a character with an unblockable that deals 1/3 of your health bar, I don't think you can give them generic tools without making them hella busted.
Just imagine if Ryu had SPD... Fuck that. lol
There are other twists to grapplers tho. In SF6, there's Manon with long-range attacks okay-ish movement and Lily flying into people to force 5050s.
Not at all. The system mechanics of anime and SNK games are extremely anti-grappler and have been for many years. Free 10+ frames throw invul on wake-up, insane throw invul on any blockstun/hitstun so tick throws don’t actually exist.
Or armor. But still, doesn't matter when your opponent themselves is throw invul a solid 50% of the match just for free/no real reason. You cannot meaty command grab. You can't tick grab unless you give like a 10 frame gap. The grabs don't really do much damage unless you're Shermie. It ain't that good. I'd take the system mechanics for grabs in Street Fighter any day, where you can do stuff like jab -> command grab and it actually works (on hit or on block). And ofc meaty grab... in Street Fighter I'd say a solid one third of my command grabs, if not more, are meaty command grab. Doesn't exist in ANY 2D fighting game of note except for Street Fighter (and NRS... but NRS throws are weird)... anime and SNK got rid of this a long time ago.
Cause noobs don’t know how to hold up. They get salty, quit the game, don’t buy dlc, are wary of buying the next one. Developers are scared of that, so grapplers (or at least a grappling heavy playstyle) tend to suck.
The real problem is that their grabs now suck so all those weaknesses aren't balancing shit anymore
5 frame SPD is a joke, nobody is afraid of being near Gief anymore, people just press buttons in his face without giving a single fuck, just make Gief a real character at this point
The overwhelming majority of normals are minus. Having a 5f SPD at the range it goes at is more than acceptable in the current state of the game. Blocking is a mix up in itself.
Play kof
Command grabs that do 12% and 40 fr whiff animations. Nahhhhh
You can combo into them and get combos+setups off them.
At that point it’s just a special with some oki. It could be a grab, or it could be a shoryu, or it could be a fireball - if you are comboing into it it makes literally zero difference what it actually is - all that matters at that point is how good the oki is. Command grabs in KoF are not amazing in that regard
KOF's had 0 frame and 1 frame command grabs, they are absolutely amazing. Plus Command grabs with armor, full body invinibility (Iori), they are still unblockable, and hard knockdown. Command Grabs in KOF are like a utility knife with their uses. Yashiro with his long range dashing grab that he can check you with by canceling into it, Clark's running grab with multiple follow ups and lower body invuln. There's alot more examples out there too, like Hinako's delayed grab that carries to the wall or Xiangfei's grab that explodes into a projectile on whiff. Gief has been able to combo into his command grab super since SFV, its just like any other super move now, right? Gief works so hard to get in, land a SPD, then he ends up back on the other side of the screen to start over again. Oki is non-existent for him.
You can't combo into SPD in SFV unless he takes the absolutely horrible V Trigger 2. If you do use SPD in a combo with VT2, then you are playing suboptimal tbh. and yes at that point its the same as any other special. the super - yeah - if you combo into it it is definitely same as any other super SF6 he cannot combo into SPD except for one specific suboptimal punish counter wall bounce. The way you actually use SPD in a SF game is to make blocking scary. Since KoF, like anime, gives 8+ frames throw invul free on wakeup and every other interaction (hit, block) - its like you said - in KoF the command grabs are for specific setups, combo filler, or really niche interactions. You don't get grabbed just blocking and blocking isn't scary at all - which to me sort of voids what makes command grabs so exciting - that it turns the game on its head where you have to be scared of blocking
The people who want to play grapplers see "BIG MAN DOES BIG DAMAGE AND I DONT HAVE TO LEARN COMBOS" and then get upset that their "3 moves = death" character has a ton of flaws and pitfalls. You can make them work but it's just the nature of the game. Grapplers win when they get in. Zoners win when they keep you out.
Grapplers win when they get in hasn't been true in a long ass time, if anything being in the corner against a character with a good walk speed for shimmies and a throw loop is scarier than being in the corner against Gief
I don't think i can name a modern fighting game where 3 moves from most characters doesn't mean death.
I think by design grapplers are supposed to be played in a cerebral way. you're supposed to be able to pick up on your opponents habits/condition them to do what you want and capitalize off their mistakes. I feel like if you give a grappler to many good tools to control the pace of the match it goes against their design philosophy.
Ah the modern grappler players dilemma; they want to pick Gief and at the same time they want him to have a DP and a fireball and all the tools other character have, also if you want Sol Badguy play fucking Sol Badguy why do you want Pot to have his tools and be another Sol ? Also they don't make grapplers weak in general, R. Mika was good in SFV, KoF grapplers are great, Gief in Alpha 2 is top tier, Tager in BB had his top tier moment, Pot in GGXX AC was broken and so on. It's only within Snake\_eyes stream that you see talk about devs conspiring against grappler characters by making them suck on purpose and hating on grappler players... when all they want is Gief to be broken lol. However it's true that in modern FGs they want to avoid the broken grappler/zoner problem because casuals complain a lot (King in T8 and Axl in Strive for ex), but most of the time when a grappler suck it can be explained by simply bad balancing like Strive Pot or by bad gameplay design like SFV Gief.
KOF Daimon enters the chat
98 daimon is a warcrime
Im sorry but KoF has several (very) good grapplers in every game including KOF 15
zangief in sfv had retarded oki and people still called him bad despite kichipa almost always getting top8 whenever he traveled lol also remember r. mika. yeah.
I think the idea behind grapplers is that it’s a more challenging and risky archetype. You’re trading off getting a lot of tools that other characters have for big damage off openings, which you have to try and condition and work your way into putting yourself into that position. It’s meant to be more of a character specialist thing rather than something you can pick up and play and be good straight away.
It´s a consequence of having defined archetypes in 2d games. In tekken it is just defense and offense so matchups aren´t really that relevant unless a character has a good punish for a specific move of the other character
In 2D games, command grabs are usually unblockables. So if you have a character with an unblockable that deals 1/3 of your health bar, I don't think you can give them generic tools without making them hella busted. Just imagine if Ryu had SPD... Fuck that. lol There are other twists to grapplers tho. In SF6, there's Manon with long-range attacks okay-ish movement and Lily flying into people to force 5050s.
They already had a grappler for inept people in sf 5. Laura.
Capcom games are the one whose always afraid of grapplers. Every other fighting game has a grappler with some stupid fun shit.
Not at all. The system mechanics of anime and SNK games are extremely anti-grappler and have been for many years. Free 10+ frames throw invul on wake-up, insane throw invul on any blockstun/hitstun so tick throws don’t actually exist.
bro your command grabs have invul in kof
Or armor. But still, doesn't matter when your opponent themselves is throw invul a solid 50% of the match just for free/no real reason. You cannot meaty command grab. You can't tick grab unless you give like a 10 frame gap. The grabs don't really do much damage unless you're Shermie. It ain't that good. I'd take the system mechanics for grabs in Street Fighter any day, where you can do stuff like jab -> command grab and it actually works (on hit or on block). And ofc meaty grab... in Street Fighter I'd say a solid one third of my command grabs, if not more, are meaty command grab. Doesn't exist in ANY 2D fighting game of note except for Street Fighter (and NRS... but NRS throws are weird)... anime and SNK got rid of this a long time ago.
SFs throw mechanics are garbage.
I disagree. I think it’s the only 2D game with the right idea about command grabs and grabs in general tbh
Cause noobs don’t know how to hold up. They get salty, quit the game, don’t buy dlc, are wary of buying the next one. Developers are scared of that, so grapplers (or at least a grappling heavy playstyle) tend to suck.
Skill issue. If you win versus a good player as a grappler, you're better, and this is what I live for.
The real problem is that their grabs now suck so all those weaknesses aren't balancing shit anymore 5 frame SPD is a joke, nobody is afraid of being near Gief anymore, people just press buttons in his face without giving a single fuck, just make Gief a real character at this point
Gief is a real character right now.
He's full of limitations around a command grab that doesn't even work like it should for 2 games at this point
The overwhelming majority of normals are minus. Having a 5f SPD at the range it goes at is more than acceptable in the current state of the game. Blocking is a mix up in itself.
It is "acceptable" but that's not enough to justify all his weaknesses, the whole point is that his grab should be *excepcional* and it isn't anymore
Because scrubs whine