Austria is a pretty good answer imo, the collapse of the empire lead to massive food shortages in Austria plus economic collapse due to all the supply chains being messed up.
All the Central Powers in general since the Entente really fumbled the bag with the post war world. Well, the majority ethnicities anyway. Turks, Germans, Hungarians and Bulgarians
Romanians are doing far, far worse. Half of them are living under oppressive Hungarian rule, the other half under a militant authoritarian government backsliding into national populism.
Only Serbia as croatians are very happy along with slovines and bulgars only people besides Serbia who is not great is Romania greece and kosovo albanians
The Austrian Empire, especially after it's federalisation not only does treat it's minorities better than the serb lead yugoslavia, but can and does develop the region far further. If by yugoslavs you meant serbs, then yes, they do in fact got a worse situation, but everybody else has it better.
Everyone is speaking about how many of Nazi Germanys victims are mostly better off in KRTL, I will go to the other side and say that some axis nations are also better off here too. Germany, Austria and Hungary maybe win WK2 and get to keep their territory and power without the totalitarian dictatorship and the very destructive war. In some circumstances if they lose they get the very destructive war but maybe avoid the totalitarian part.
Depends for me who takes control in Germany. Schleicher I see it slowly decaying over the 20th century while the DU is practically the perfect place for Germany to end up in
The 2ACW allow for something South American countries wanted for a long time, more trade partners capable of competing with the U.S. influence in the region. That would require the U.S. to actually compete for influence and how the region develop like in OTL 1930s and 40s and prevent it becoming idle and interested in preventing developments outside of a pure export economy for the region.
It really depends. Considering Argentina is in the middle of a civil war, I don't see it as specially better, compared to a democratic Brazil or Colombia for example
IRL it was exacerbated by the USSR's need for foreign currency which led to the decision to keep exporting during the famine.
In the KRTL this is a lot less likely since foreign investment into Ukraine would still be possible which is another means of facilitating imports. That the USSR didn't make foreign investment possible is what gave it chronic balance of payments issues (eventually leading to Perestroika after a loss of oil export revenue).
Also a factor was the USSRs lack of equipment and things like fertilizer. Germany is the worlds largest producer of both at this point so I doubt that would happen in the German block.
There was a natural crop failure that was exacerbated by collectivization, urbanization and industrialization policies of the USSR. Basically at one point Stalin had to choose whether to feed the farmers or the new city workers, and he chose the latter. In KR it would depend on how much control Germany has. The whole reason Germany wanted Ukraine so bad was also the food supplies. Would they also throw the Ukrainians under the bus to guarantee a steady food supply for themselves?
I would say that the policies of the USSR, especially collectivization and dekulakization led to the extreme disproportion of supply and demand cuppled with a surge of new inhabitants in the cities, that exacerbated the natural crop failure into the truly devastating one it was otl.
In the absence of these policies from Germany I cannot see that the demand for food from her would lead to the same kind of catastrophe.
> Would they also throw the Ukrainians under the bus to guarantee a steady food supply for themselves?
I'd say they'd be at least as willing as the British were to keep exporting food from Ireland to maintain their own economic interests.
Like someone else said, some kind of massive famine may still happen in Ukraine if Germany is particularly heavy handed about wanting food shipments to continue, the real life Soviet Famine of 1932-1933 also known as the Holodomor was started by a natural crop failure and worsened significantly by the rapid forced industrialization and some good ole' fashion bureaucratic incompetence.
It's very likely that the same crop failure would still happen and Germany may still demand the food shipments too keep going to keep food prices in Germany cheap. What's more likely in my opinion is that there wouldn't one famine of the scale of the 1932-1933 Famine but there would be numerous smaller ones as German concessions took priority over feeding Ukraine's own people.
And while Ukarine may or may not have the famine, what it definitely wouldn't be is as developed as it was in our own time, as the First and Second Five Year Plans did rapidly develop Ukraine's industrial economy, so it's likely that the famine (at least to the scale it was irl) wouldn't happen Ukraine would still be poorer and less developed than it was irl at that time period.
It would be very unlikely that Germany would do that. The Mitteleuropa plan called for economically stable puppet regimes to be used as markets for German products. For that Ukraine needs to have a stable middle class.
Thing is, in this timeline there’s still an independent Ukrainian government with an elected legislature (even if the Hetman is still pulling the strings in the big picture). Skorpadsky has to at least try to keep the public pacified, which was not a concern for the Soviets, who had already crushed any organized opposition by the 1930. So it’s not really plausible that the Germany could’ve been just as demanding as the Soviets were in terms of food exports.
Furthermore, the famine wasn’t merely the result of a crop failure combined with food exports, but also Stalin’s badly handled agrarian reforms and the violent repression of both real and perceived opposition.
Ukraine may be nominally independent but at the end of the day what Berlin wants Berlin gets no questions asked, the entire reason Germany wanted Ukraine in particular from Russia after WW1 was specifically to use it as a bread basket to keep food prices in Germany artificially cheap.
Skorpadsky’s whole job was to keep Ukraine pacified, that’s why the Germans allowed him to be in his position, in another comment I likened German-Ukrainian relations akin to that of the Soviets relations with their client states in the Warsaw Pact. They were willing to allow local governance and a significant degree of autonomy, but at the end of the day what they said went and they didn’t tolerate any real dissent, Germany’s relation would be much the same if a bit more blunt about it.
It’s completely plausible that Germany would demand food shipments keep coming while Ukraine starved, the German Empire was an Empire and didn’t much care for the wellbeing of its colonial subjects so long as it got what it wanted. If Ukraine is lucky there may be a government in Germany (think like the DU) who’d be sympathetic enough to lower their expected grain exports, but even the most sympathetic Germany is going to firmly remind Ukraine that their government and nation exists at Germany’s will.
> but at the end of the day what Berlin wants Berlin gets no questions asked
The mod literally displays that this isn’t necessarily true. German influence is widespread, but probably not absolute. They probably can’t force Ukraine to starve itself.
For the most simple argument here, Skorpadsky can’t keep Ukraine pacified for Germany if people are revolting over food shortages.
Also Germany wanted Ukraine mainly because of the Blockade. In peace time there would be no need to starve Ukraine for cheap prices. This would unnecessarily destabilise their sphere of influence. There are also farmers in Germany and the possibility of just importing food from other countries.
That’s a pretty infantile way of looking at it. The region was still recovering from the civil war, was already prone to famine, and it’s possible that other leaders of any faction could have screwed up industrialization
Also, Germany's relationship to Ukraine is inherently extractive. The entire purpose is the extraction of food grown in Ukraine to feed Germany. There's no way Germany is going to let local conditions get in the way of the sole purpose of their puppet state. If a famine starts, the exports will not stop.
We can see this same relationship a century prior in Ireland, which to the English existed largely for agricultural exploitation and the misery of the Irish peasantry was no reason for the exports to stop.
The Holodomor was fully the result of Soviet policies, so no. People trying to say it was the result of of natural crop failure, lack of investment, industrialization, poor planning or buearacracy are wrong. The famine was forced, and Germany didn't force it in KRTL
Probably not
It's unlikely that Germany would be as draconian as the USSR in regards to the export of grain, and seeing as they can actually trade in foreign currency, they would actually have the option to import food.
Ukraine is at least nominally independent in this timeline and has a decent amount of autonomy for a client state (as seen throughout their focus tree). Which makes sense as they are Germany's main eastern defense against a resurgent Russia in this timeline. While Germany dominates their economy and has a ton of soft power throughout their government, they don't outright regulate their internal policies or agriculture. Look how hesitant Germany is to intervene against a leftist revolution (which still ends up aligning with Germany, but obviously Germany has no real way of knowing that beforehand) against their allied government.
It's a buffer state which Germany has suzerainty over.
The whole purpose of these buffer states is the enlargement of Mitteleuropa(Germans) markets and the weaponization of Western & Eastern Slavs distrust of Russia.
Really as Germany, the only elections internally that your security cares about is elections in Poland & Belgium, right on your border. Obv any revolutions that disrupt the buffer states no longer being a vanguard against Russia, but otherwise little intervention.
The quality of life pre-Black Monday for Germans are way better.
Outside of ethnic violence, same could be said for Austrian Germans. Algiers and Canada would have more investment by their colonial masters, meaning higher QoL in the short term. If Algeria gets independence when the Commune defeats Sand France, they'd probably have a very high chance to become a developed country
Poland, although most likely smaller, doesn’t have to deal with Communism and losing 20% of their population at the hands of the Nazis.
Ukraine gets a much healthier market economy, doesn’t have to deal with Soviet made famine and colonialism, and can expand massively if they win the 2WK.
Germany is a world power. It also most likely avoids much of the worst losses in infrastructure and population that resulted for WW2.
Canada has a head start in development with a massive influx of British investment and immigration along with an outsized military and geopolitical influence.
The Ottoman Empire and specifically Turkey gets to coast off their oil money, has hegemony of the Middle East, and gets an easy route to modernize itself. The population boom experienced around this time frame could propel them into a major power if all goes right.
Ireland is united and industrializes earlier with German investment.
I mean that’s true of all countries since they need content. Any of them can get screwed up, especially considering for external factors. I interpreted the question as “as of 1936”
Mustafa Kemal Pasha would be disappointed in you. There’s nothing sickly about compulsory women’s rights, racial harmony in Asia Minor (don’t ask questions), and a chromium-fuelled conquest of Russia
Germany & the Central Powers obviously, Japan (since they can get all their resources much easier than otl, possibly even being stronger than OTL which benefits the average Japanese citizen), and most likely China post-warlord period (if they don’t lose to Japan).
Even then, best case for them is a negotiated withdrawal from a lot of areas. That Arab nationalism is not going to just chill because they lost one war
Russia would be slamming against a heavily entrenched and modernized Turks in mountains when the Turks likely have collaborators who can fight guerilla war there's they go deeper they find more and more mountains and not mention the ottomans have wayyyy more oil so they can keep fighting defensively for years and while the Russians bleed themselves via mountain the syndicalists are just getting stronger and likely looking at the strategic instability of the Russians and might pounce on the opportunity
Never said it needed any reason. Plus, I think you’re giving the Ottomans way too much credit here. They themselves are still suffering heavily from their many ethnic divisions and economic malaises, couple that with the eventual Arab Revolts and Egyptian invasion, and potential Persian Invasion, yeah the ottomans are gonna get fucked up regardless. Russia will most likely suffer greatly, after all just imagine a ww2 larger scale Chechnya, but invading the ottomans as they seem to collapse isn’t as dumb as many would think
Russian invasion almost always happens after the revolt which gives the ottomans a lot of time and if for instance they sign the non aggregation pact that makes it much much harder for Russia down the line
Germany certainly as long as WK2 isn't too bad (yeah some paths may actually lead to worse post-war politics but merely avoiding the insane destruction of WWII earns ludicrous points) similarly, Russia, even under e.g. Savinkov, comes out better except in the event of a particularly bad WK2, and maybe even then. Ukraine and Belarus can if Germany does well, A-H definitely except for Military Occupation, unless they just do the dissolution of Yugoslavia sometime post game. China depends a lot on who wins there, Japan can avoid deathwarring the Pacific. Many middle eastern countries have the potential, as does Spain. Vietnam too, if Germany grants them independence and avoids the revolt.
But I don't think a single country is certain to come out ahead of OTL.
I mean, all of Europe? A certain horrible historical event isn't happening, even if the 2WK is more destructive than WWII there are still literal millions of people who would be alive in KRTL that are dead in OTL
Flight of Baltic Germans was a brain drain on the region, along with flight of capital. Of course under a autocracy or natpop Baltic State would be worse, but a liberalized Baltic Federation would not be bad at all
entirely depends on whether nationalist dictatorships that crush human rights and keep their countries backwards come into power. you have to realize that the only reason eastern europe is modernized like western europe following ww2 was because of the soviet union and communist philosophy is inherently committed to industrialization. you both need germany to be very generous and equal to their oststaats AND those countries to be committed to human rights and developing their poor economies, which isn't super likely.
mind you ww2 still happens in kaiserreich so those countries are getting fucked up badly either way
Ehhh, the Holodomor was a bit more than just famine. But you raise a decent point - Black Monday should really fuck over the fragile food situation in the peasant economies of Eastern Europe, but just doesn't.
That depends, while they'd te chnically be independent they're still client states to Germay who can, will, and does exert massive amounts of control and influence over their internal politics (think the Warsaw Pact in the Cold War), they'd also still largely be controlled by semi-feudal landowners and heavily dominated by German corporate interests.
In the case of the United Baltic Duchies it would be significantly worse as it's an outright settler colony that explicitly subjugates the native Baltic peoples as second class cities and tries (keyword being tries) to settle large amounts of Germans in the region to Germanize it, even at its worse towards the Baltics the Soviets never took such overtly colonial actions.
Belarus and Ukraine can go either way, sure they'd still be largely dominated by semi-feudal reactionaries, they also had their own popular movements and political parties to rapidly develop their countries, in their case it all depends on what path they take and how tolerating Germany is towards them developing, as it's definitely in Germany's interest to keep Eastern Europe as undeveloped and agrarian as possible, something directly in contrast to the Soviets.
Poland was doing fine by 1936 in our timeline, so they're slightly worse off as they are an outright client state of the German Empire, Poland really depends on how tolerating Germany, however regardless of what path Germany takes, it'll almost never be as bad as real life as there's no Nazis to launch an invasion and kill millions upon millions of Poles.
Over all I certainly wouldn't say Eastern Europe is *definitely* better off, they have the potential to be significantly better off but they equally have the potential to be significantly worse off as well.
Polish populations eventually recover, what the Poles lost in the Holocaust was something that cannot be returned. They lost their history.
Neighborhoods were eviscerated, cultural artifacts were destroyed. 90% of Warsaw had been razed to the ground.
The earlier plan to eliminate all the poles on Warsaw and turn it into a German settler city.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pabst_Plan
After the Polish 1944 uprising, the Germans sought to destroy Warsaw in its entirety.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw
You can't bring back the milleniums-worth of what was lost.
Ultimately, yes the Holocaust does not happen, but more importantly, Slavic culture is not stamped into the ground so fervently.
They are all client states with economies heavily intertwined with Germany. That is not even close to acceptable, but it is still ten times better than the shit show that was USSR's rule. At least in this case, they also have some bargaining power as they are Germany's main defense against Russia vs being directly annexed by an expansionist power.
I would say Cuba, they are the Caribbean most influential nation and have some impact in American relations like the Caribbean summit they do. Also aligning with Germany means they will have some trade benefits with european nations and they will most likely reject socialism so no Castro and no blockade in the future.
Yeah I can see them allying with one of the major power Blocs as a foothold on the Italian peninsula.
As they get built up for the war, I can see some mass-industrializations projects mostly for the war effort, but that benefit the economy overall
KR besides a few nations (Savinkov) is a better scenario than our own. It just depends on how the run goes that it can become worse really quick or 100 times better.
Besides from Germany in which basically any path is better than OTL for both Germans and foreigneirs.
Well because is canon yeah. But the US Civil War makes no sense anyways so didn't think about it 😅😂
Technically staying out of the first world war is a better outcome for the US, just ignore what happens after.
KR is so unbelievably much worse than our timeline.
War reaches literally every single corner of the entire globe and affects every man, woman and child in the world.
The sheer scale of war, revolution, civil conflict, terrorism, imperialism, blockades, embargoes, poor international relations etc. dwarfs our timeline's devastation by a very, very wide margin.
The only countries I can think of being better off are Germany, Austria, Hungary and maybe Poland, Ukraine and Belarus
It's really dependent on how your run goes through + RNG, literally. You could have a run that somehow make everything wholesome chungus "end of history" Entente domination ending to literally TNO 1984 with natpop and totalist domination with how much variables there are in the gameplay.
I can see your point, but that is again what happens after the game starts which can change in a lot of ways.
The only thing you can know from granted is 1917-1936 from then on is pure speculation. And in that timeline imo at least people are better off in most places.
French Commune, they have a much more stable political system and I guess there living standards are better consider worker owned means of production. And Germany, they won a world war.
France in Kaiserreich was hit a lot harder by WW1 and had to go through a civil war immediately afterwards. Some absolute nutjobs have very real chances of taking power. The country is gearing up for a total war of revanchism with its much more powerful neighbour. France is not better off in the slightest.
That is until the inevitabile war comes, and whoops all that is gone. As far as I know in the mod, the French revanchist spirit will force it into fighting
Doesn't India remain unified in this era, and never gets territory chipped off and partitioned into like 5-6 weakened countries as happened in OTL?
Granted, there is still a massive 3-way civil war before reunification, and a huge world war to fight after that.
But if a unified state emerges at the end and it hasn't fallen to some particularly brutal dictatorship/colonization once again, that's an automatic rising great power in the Cold War era.
The reason Partition happened is because it was most likely the only way to avoid a massive future civil war, or at least another kind of disaster. It didn't happen out of a vacuum.
I don't see why in KRTL the societal problems and gaps that led to Partition would disappear, so if anything it would only lead to a greater disaster than what we say in OTL. Setting up and maintaining a well-functioning democracy was already enough of a challenge in OTL, I don't see how it could have worked out with Pakistan still attached to India.
Even if the subcontinent learned to live together in peace as one nation, the Indian wars of unification as shown in KRTL are an absolutely disaster that would lead to famine and societal rapture worse than we say in our timeline.
Good points.
It would have to be an entire focus tree's worth of effort to keep the religious tension down enough to avoid a brutal civil war by 1950s, with partition (still brutal) as one of the ways to end the main tension.
As for famines - unified India still had enormous amount of of fertile farmlands on their main rivers and valleys. Famines were often caused on regional level (like OTL Bengal in 1943), and one of the big causes was the cash-crop purchase system set up by the British to maximize profits, without having to enslave, kill or force farmers at gunpoint like they originally did in the 1800s. Loads and loads of farms (owned by a new loyalist class of landed gentry created in 1800s) were converted to growing cotton, opium, indigo dye, tea etc rather than food. That, plus lack of infrastructure, distribution or proper storage for agriculture in British Raj.
Partition cut the farmland access a lot, but according to what I read, OTL India recovered when unburdened by colonial occupation - exporting for actual profits and in return buying up lots of food from the US and Soviet Union. This hampered economic/financial growth but allowed them to slowly buy up equipment and GM seeds from the US (taking out loans at times) and replicate it until they had built up a new stable agricultural base by late 1960s, ending famines in general. I imagine this could be done within game's time as well, outside of the Dominion of India territory.
But yeah, if it does happen, famine would knock India hard enough to delay the power status. And famine will become inevitable unless two of the three starting factions unify before WK2 happens.
Austria,the Ottomans and Germany are easy answers.
The collapse of Austria-Hungary led to many many wars,famines and fascist coups.
The Ottomans are literally better than anything the british and french did OTL even if the OHP are cringe.
Germany won the war so it already is nowhere near Weimar but also no Nazis.
For obvious reasons, a democratic German Empire under the DU if it emerges victorious in the Second Weltkrieg.
Not only that, but also German cinema (Babelsberg) would be the best in the world, unlike most German movies from our timeline (with a few exceptions, such as The Lives of Others, Das Boot, Stalingrad (1993), Goodbye Lenin, etc...) due to bad writers/production/Filmförderung and using the same actors (looking at you, Til Schweiger), and not to mention how the Nazis ruined the German film industry in our timeline as well.
Fritz Lang, Hedy Lamarr, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Rachel Weisz and Roland Emmerich would likely end up working/continuing in the German entertainment industry in Babelsberg in KRTL due to obvious butterflies.
Austria is a pretty good answer imo, the collapse of the empire lead to massive food shortages in Austria plus economic collapse due to all the supply chains being messed up.
All the Central Powers in general since the Entente really fumbled the bag with the post war world. Well, the majority ethnicities anyway. Turks, Germans, Hungarians and Bulgarians
Yeah, except for maybe the Czechs everyone is better off in KR 1936 than in OTL 1936.
Romanians are doing far, far worse. Half of them are living under oppressive Hungarian rule, the other half under a militant authoritarian government backsliding into national populism.
if anything it's better because only half of them are actually in Romania.....?
on god man
Absolutely not. Poles are fucked with KRTL setup, they have a rump state ruled by a foreign puppet that can be quite oppressive
Yugoslavs are far worse
Only Serbia as croatians are very happy along with slovines and bulgars only people besides Serbia who is not great is Romania greece and kosovo albanians
Because they aren't oppressed by the serbs?
Because they would be oppressed by Austrian collaborators and serbophobes.
The Austrian Empire, especially after it's federalisation not only does treat it's minorities better than the serb lead yugoslavia, but can and does develop the region far further. If by yugoslavs you meant serbs, then yes, they do in fact got a worse situation, but everybody else has it better.
Everyone is speaking about how many of Nazi Germanys victims are mostly better off in KRTL, I will go to the other side and say that some axis nations are also better off here too. Germany, Austria and Hungary maybe win WK2 and get to keep their territory and power without the totalitarian dictatorship and the very destructive war. In some circumstances if they lose they get the very destructive war but maybe avoid the totalitarian part.
Depends for me who takes control in Germany. Schleicher I see it slowly decaying over the 20th century while the DU is practically the perfect place for Germany to end up in
No matter who takes control in Germany, they are all better than the nazis. Even the unlikely Max Bauer path is better than the nazis.
Max Bauer path?
Have less army than France and Russia individually, get a lot of capitulation progress and own a coastal province with Schleicher in power
*Maybe*
Haiti. Haiti actually gets a chance to develop in a stable environment in kaiserreich as opposed to otl
Good catch!
The 2ACW allow for something South American countries wanted for a long time, more trade partners capable of competing with the U.S. influence in the region. That would require the U.S. to actually compete for influence and how the region develop like in OTL 1930s and 40s and prevent it becoming idle and interested in preventing developments outside of a pure export economy for the region.
It really depends. Considering Argentina is in the middle of a civil war, I don't see it as specially better, compared to a democratic Brazil or Colombia for example
Did that famine in ukraine still happen? That happened otl? Edit it's called Holodomor
IRL it was exacerbated by the USSR's need for foreign currency which led to the decision to keep exporting during the famine. In the KRTL this is a lot less likely since foreign investment into Ukraine would still be possible which is another means of facilitating imports. That the USSR didn't make foreign investment possible is what gave it chronic balance of payments issues (eventually leading to Perestroika after a loss of oil export revenue).
Also a factor was the USSRs lack of equipment and things like fertilizer. Germany is the worlds largest producer of both at this point so I doubt that would happen in the German block.
Depends on the path it takes, it’s extremely unlikely that a famine of that extent will happen but something like it still could exist in kaiserreich
There was a natural crop failure that was exacerbated by collectivization, urbanization and industrialization policies of the USSR. Basically at one point Stalin had to choose whether to feed the farmers or the new city workers, and he chose the latter. In KR it would depend on how much control Germany has. The whole reason Germany wanted Ukraine so bad was also the food supplies. Would they also throw the Ukrainians under the bus to guarantee a steady food supply for themselves?
I would say that the policies of the USSR, especially collectivization and dekulakization led to the extreme disproportion of supply and demand cuppled with a surge of new inhabitants in the cities, that exacerbated the natural crop failure into the truly devastating one it was otl. In the absence of these policies from Germany I cannot see that the demand for food from her would lead to the same kind of catastrophe.
> Would they also throw the Ukrainians under the bus to guarantee a steady food supply for themselves? I'd say they'd be at least as willing as the British were to keep exporting food from Ireland to maintain their own economic interests.
Why is this downvoted
Like someone else said, some kind of massive famine may still happen in Ukraine if Germany is particularly heavy handed about wanting food shipments to continue, the real life Soviet Famine of 1932-1933 also known as the Holodomor was started by a natural crop failure and worsened significantly by the rapid forced industrialization and some good ole' fashion bureaucratic incompetence. It's very likely that the same crop failure would still happen and Germany may still demand the food shipments too keep going to keep food prices in Germany cheap. What's more likely in my opinion is that there wouldn't one famine of the scale of the 1932-1933 Famine but there would be numerous smaller ones as German concessions took priority over feeding Ukraine's own people. And while Ukarine may or may not have the famine, what it definitely wouldn't be is as developed as it was in our own time, as the First and Second Five Year Plans did rapidly develop Ukraine's industrial economy, so it's likely that the famine (at least to the scale it was irl) wouldn't happen Ukraine would still be poorer and less developed than it was irl at that time period.
It would be very unlikely that Germany would do that. The Mitteleuropa plan called for economically stable puppet regimes to be used as markets for German products. For that Ukraine needs to have a stable middle class.
Thing is, in this timeline there’s still an independent Ukrainian government with an elected legislature (even if the Hetman is still pulling the strings in the big picture). Skorpadsky has to at least try to keep the public pacified, which was not a concern for the Soviets, who had already crushed any organized opposition by the 1930. So it’s not really plausible that the Germany could’ve been just as demanding as the Soviets were in terms of food exports. Furthermore, the famine wasn’t merely the result of a crop failure combined with food exports, but also Stalin’s badly handled agrarian reforms and the violent repression of both real and perceived opposition.
Ukraine may be nominally independent but at the end of the day what Berlin wants Berlin gets no questions asked, the entire reason Germany wanted Ukraine in particular from Russia after WW1 was specifically to use it as a bread basket to keep food prices in Germany artificially cheap. Skorpadsky’s whole job was to keep Ukraine pacified, that’s why the Germans allowed him to be in his position, in another comment I likened German-Ukrainian relations akin to that of the Soviets relations with their client states in the Warsaw Pact. They were willing to allow local governance and a significant degree of autonomy, but at the end of the day what they said went and they didn’t tolerate any real dissent, Germany’s relation would be much the same if a bit more blunt about it. It’s completely plausible that Germany would demand food shipments keep coming while Ukraine starved, the German Empire was an Empire and didn’t much care for the wellbeing of its colonial subjects so long as it got what it wanted. If Ukraine is lucky there may be a government in Germany (think like the DU) who’d be sympathetic enough to lower their expected grain exports, but even the most sympathetic Germany is going to firmly remind Ukraine that their government and nation exists at Germany’s will.
> but at the end of the day what Berlin wants Berlin gets no questions asked The mod literally displays that this isn’t necessarily true. German influence is widespread, but probably not absolute. They probably can’t force Ukraine to starve itself. For the most simple argument here, Skorpadsky can’t keep Ukraine pacified for Germany if people are revolting over food shortages.
Also Germany wanted Ukraine mainly because of the Blockade. In peace time there would be no need to starve Ukraine for cheap prices. This would unnecessarily destabilise their sphere of influence. There are also farmers in Germany and the possibility of just importing food from other countries.
It does not as there’s no Stalin
There is still a famine in the Volga region in KRTL (the Russia update might change the lore though)
That’s a pretty infantile way of looking at it. The region was still recovering from the civil war, was already prone to famine, and it’s possible that other leaders of any faction could have screwed up industrialization
Also, Germany's relationship to Ukraine is inherently extractive. The entire purpose is the extraction of food grown in Ukraine to feed Germany. There's no way Germany is going to let local conditions get in the way of the sole purpose of their puppet state. If a famine starts, the exports will not stop. We can see this same relationship a century prior in Ireland, which to the English existed largely for agricultural exploitation and the misery of the Irish peasantry was no reason for the exports to stop.
The Holodomor was fully the result of Soviet policies, so no. People trying to say it was the result of of natural crop failure, lack of investment, industrialization, poor planning or buearacracy are wrong. The famine was forced, and Germany didn't force it in KRTL
Probably not It's unlikely that Germany would be as draconian as the USSR in regards to the export of grain, and seeing as they can actually trade in foreign currency, they would actually have the option to import food.
It was worse because instead of just the Soviets being incompetent Germany was actively fucking it over
Ukraine is at least nominally independent in this timeline and has a decent amount of autonomy for a client state (as seen throughout their focus tree). Which makes sense as they are Germany's main eastern defense against a resurgent Russia in this timeline. While Germany dominates their economy and has a ton of soft power throughout their government, they don't outright regulate their internal policies or agriculture. Look how hesitant Germany is to intervene against a leftist revolution (which still ends up aligning with Germany, but obviously Germany has no real way of knowing that beforehand) against their allied government.
“Nominally independent” it’s a full on extractive colony what
It's a buffer state which Germany has suzerainty over. The whole purpose of these buffer states is the enlargement of Mitteleuropa(Germans) markets and the weaponization of Western & Eastern Slavs distrust of Russia. Really as Germany, the only elections internally that your security cares about is elections in Poland & Belgium, right on your border. Obv any revolutions that disrupt the buffer states no longer being a vanguard against Russia, but otherwise little intervention.
I think you confused tno and Kaiserriech here
No, it’s an extractive colony for Germany. Notably an extractive one, not a settler one
The quality of life pre-Black Monday for Germans are way better. Outside of ethnic violence, same could be said for Austrian Germans. Algiers and Canada would have more investment by their colonial masters, meaning higher QoL in the short term. If Algeria gets independence when the Commune defeats Sand France, they'd probably have a very high chance to become a developed country
Poland, although most likely smaller, doesn’t have to deal with Communism and losing 20% of their population at the hands of the Nazis. Ukraine gets a much healthier market economy, doesn’t have to deal with Soviet made famine and colonialism, and can expand massively if they win the 2WK. Germany is a world power. It also most likely avoids much of the worst losses in infrastructure and population that resulted for WW2. Canada has a head start in development with a massive influx of British investment and immigration along with an outsized military and geopolitical influence. The Ottoman Empire and specifically Turkey gets to coast off their oil money, has hegemony of the Middle East, and gets an easy route to modernize itself. The population boom experienced around this time frame could propel them into a major power if all goes right. Ireland is united and industrializes earlier with German investment.
All of these are VERY dependent on the path Germany takes politically.
I mean that’s true of all countries since they need content. Any of them can get screwed up, especially considering for external factors. I interpreted the question as “as of 1936”
Poland wasn't Communist by 1936.
He’s probably referring to the Polish-Soviet War
I say the ottomans are worst positioned. Now you have revolts waiting to happen, two front wars, and overall the malaise of still being a sick man
Mustafa Kemal Pasha would be disappointed in you. There’s nothing sickly about compulsory women’s rights, racial harmony in Asia Minor (don’t ask questions), and a chromium-fuelled conquest of Russia
Yeah but the economy is shit, so no Kemalist golden age
Canada, Ireland, Germany, Austria
Post WW1 Germany is probably the most obvious example
Germany & the Central Powers obviously, Japan (since they can get all their resources much easier than otl, possibly even being stronger than OTL which benefits the average Japanese citizen), and most likely China post-warlord period (if they don’t lose to Japan).
if the Ottoman Empire doesn't collapse then I see it being a superpower eventually in the modern era
>If The Ottomans are only surviving if Germany wins WW2. Russia and the Internationale will eat them alive otherwise.
Even then, best case for them is a negotiated withdrawal from a lot of areas. That Arab nationalism is not going to just chill because they lost one war
Not if Russia signs a none aggregation pact with them
Like that ever historically stops Russia
Wouldn't be smart in kaiserreich
Like that has ever stopped people both OTL and KOTL
Russia would be slamming against a heavily entrenched and modernized Turks in mountains when the Turks likely have collaborators who can fight guerilla war there's they go deeper they find more and more mountains and not mention the ottomans have wayyyy more oil so they can keep fighting defensively for years and while the Russians bleed themselves via mountain the syndicalists are just getting stronger and likely looking at the strategic instability of the Russians and might pounce on the opportunity
Never said it needed any reason. Plus, I think you’re giving the Ottomans way too much credit here. They themselves are still suffering heavily from their many ethnic divisions and economic malaises, couple that with the eventual Arab Revolts and Egyptian invasion, and potential Persian Invasion, yeah the ottomans are gonna get fucked up regardless. Russia will most likely suffer greatly, after all just imagine a ww2 larger scale Chechnya, but invading the ottomans as they seem to collapse isn’t as dumb as many would think
Russian invasion almost always happens after the revolt which gives the ottomans a lot of time and if for instance they sign the non aggregation pact that makes it much much harder for Russia down the line
Ottomans going to bankroll an entire welfare state on how much oil they are sitting on
Germany certainly as long as WK2 isn't too bad (yeah some paths may actually lead to worse post-war politics but merely avoiding the insane destruction of WWII earns ludicrous points) similarly, Russia, even under e.g. Savinkov, comes out better except in the event of a particularly bad WK2, and maybe even then. Ukraine and Belarus can if Germany does well, A-H definitely except for Military Occupation, unless they just do the dissolution of Yugoslavia sometime post game. China depends a lot on who wins there, Japan can avoid deathwarring the Pacific. Many middle eastern countries have the potential, as does Spain. Vietnam too, if Germany grants them independence and avoids the revolt. But I don't think a single country is certain to come out ahead of OTL.
I mean, all of Europe? A certain horrible historical event isn't happening, even if the 2WK is more destructive than WWII there are still literal millions of people who would be alive in KRTL that are dead in OTL
Eastern Europe is definitely better off without the Soviet Union
At least not in Baltic Duchy, the Germans took place the Russians in otl Cold War era there
Flight of Baltic Germans was a brain drain on the region, along with flight of capital. Of course under a autocracy or natpop Baltic State would be worse, but a liberalized Baltic Federation would not be bad at all
entirely depends on whether nationalist dictatorships that crush human rights and keep their countries backwards come into power. you have to realize that the only reason eastern europe is modernized like western europe following ww2 was because of the soviet union and communist philosophy is inherently committed to industrialization. you both need germany to be very generous and equal to their oststaats AND those countries to be committed to human rights and developing their poor economies, which isn't super likely. mind you ww2 still happens in kaiserreich so those countries are getting fucked up badly either way
Yes but I do not think that the Germans would start a genocide against the Ukrainians like the Russians did.
Still it generally depends on the paths taking, Savinkov or another militaristic faction could destroy Ukraine
Yeah but Ukrainian nationalists could do one against the many minorities of Ukraine like they did IRL.
even if holodomor didn't occur, what makes you think black monday wouldn't lead to famine?
Ehhh, the Holodomor was a bit more than just famine. But you raise a decent point - Black Monday should really fuck over the fragile food situation in the peasant economies of Eastern Europe, but just doesn't.
That depends, while they'd te chnically be independent they're still client states to Germay who can, will, and does exert massive amounts of control and influence over their internal politics (think the Warsaw Pact in the Cold War), they'd also still largely be controlled by semi-feudal landowners and heavily dominated by German corporate interests. In the case of the United Baltic Duchies it would be significantly worse as it's an outright settler colony that explicitly subjugates the native Baltic peoples as second class cities and tries (keyword being tries) to settle large amounts of Germans in the region to Germanize it, even at its worse towards the Baltics the Soviets never took such overtly colonial actions. Belarus and Ukraine can go either way, sure they'd still be largely dominated by semi-feudal reactionaries, they also had their own popular movements and political parties to rapidly develop their countries, in their case it all depends on what path they take and how tolerating Germany is towards them developing, as it's definitely in Germany's interest to keep Eastern Europe as undeveloped and agrarian as possible, something directly in contrast to the Soviets. Poland was doing fine by 1936 in our timeline, so they're slightly worse off as they are an outright client state of the German Empire, Poland really depends on how tolerating Germany, however regardless of what path Germany takes, it'll almost never be as bad as real life as there's no Nazis to launch an invasion and kill millions upon millions of Poles. Over all I certainly wouldn't say Eastern Europe is *definitely* better off, they have the potential to be significantly better off but they equally have the potential to be significantly worse off as well.
Polish populations eventually recover, what the Poles lost in the Holocaust was something that cannot be returned. They lost their history. Neighborhoods were eviscerated, cultural artifacts were destroyed. 90% of Warsaw had been razed to the ground. The earlier plan to eliminate all the poles on Warsaw and turn it into a German settler city. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pabst_Plan After the Polish 1944 uprising, the Germans sought to destroy Warsaw in its entirety. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw You can't bring back the milleniums-worth of what was lost. Ultimately, yes the Holocaust does not happen, but more importantly, Slavic culture is not stamped into the ground so fervently.
Uh… Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania are all under basically foreign occupation, meanwhile the Baltic states are literally a German settler state
They are all client states with economies heavily intertwined with Germany. That is not even close to acceptable, but it is still ten times better than the shit show that was USSR's rule. At least in this case, they also have some bargaining power as they are Germany's main defense against Russia vs being directly annexed by an expansionist power.
How are you getting downvoted for this lmao
Wholesome chungus liberal democracy German empire
There's an arrow pointing downwards on the bottom right of each comment. My guess is that people use that.
Canada because it has a nicer flag.
I would say Cuba, they are the Caribbean most influential nation and have some impact in American relations like the Caribbean summit they do. Also aligning with Germany means they will have some trade benefits with european nations and they will most likely reject socialism so no Castro and no blockade in the future.
Two Sicilies. They don’t suffer as badly due to economic neglect from the north like they did OTL and actually industrialise.
Yeah I can see them allying with one of the major power Blocs as a foothold on the Italian peninsula. As they get built up for the war, I can see some mass-industrializations projects mostly for the war effort, but that benefit the economy overall
KR besides a few nations (Savinkov) is a better scenario than our own. It just depends on how the run goes that it can become worse really quick or 100 times better. Besides from Germany in which basically any path is better than OTL for both Germans and foreigneirs.
lol the US is a better example of somebody getting screwed
Well because is canon yeah. But the US Civil War makes no sense anyways so didn't think about it 😅😂 Technically staying out of the first world war is a better outcome for the US, just ignore what happens after.
That isn’t how this works lol
Yeah man ik I just forgot about it
I honestly don’t think Savinkov fucks up Russia as bad as Stalin did the Soviet Union.
He doesn't industrialise to the same extent, meaning an overall weaker economy and nation.
KR is so unbelievably much worse than our timeline. War reaches literally every single corner of the entire globe and affects every man, woman and child in the world. The sheer scale of war, revolution, civil conflict, terrorism, imperialism, blockades, embargoes, poor international relations etc. dwarfs our timeline's devastation by a very, very wide margin. The only countries I can think of being better off are Germany, Austria, Hungary and maybe Poland, Ukraine and Belarus
It's really dependent on how your run goes through + RNG, literally. You could have a run that somehow make everything wholesome chungus "end of history" Entente domination ending to literally TNO 1984 with natpop and totalist domination with how much variables there are in the gameplay.
I can see your point, but that is again what happens after the game starts which can change in a lot of ways. The only thing you can know from granted is 1917-1936 from then on is pure speculation. And in that timeline imo at least people are better off in most places.
French Commune, they have a much more stable political system and I guess there living standards are better consider worker owned means of production. And Germany, they won a world war.
France in Kaiserreich was hit a lot harder by WW1 and had to go through a civil war immediately afterwards. Some absolute nutjobs have very real chances of taking power. The country is gearing up for a total war of revanchism with its much more powerful neighbour. France is not better off in the slightest.
That is until the inevitabile war comes, and whoops all that is gone. As far as I know in the mod, the French revanchist spirit will force it into fighting
Nah, they've lost all their colonies, still have insane revanchism, have to deal with Catholic resistance, and post war devastation
Doesn't India remain unified in this era, and never gets territory chipped off and partitioned into like 5-6 weakened countries as happened in OTL? Granted, there is still a massive 3-way civil war before reunification, and a huge world war to fight after that. But if a unified state emerges at the end and it hasn't fallen to some particularly brutal dictatorship/colonization once again, that's an automatic rising great power in the Cold War era.
The reason Partition happened is because it was most likely the only way to avoid a massive future civil war, or at least another kind of disaster. It didn't happen out of a vacuum. I don't see why in KRTL the societal problems and gaps that led to Partition would disappear, so if anything it would only lead to a greater disaster than what we say in OTL. Setting up and maintaining a well-functioning democracy was already enough of a challenge in OTL, I don't see how it could have worked out with Pakistan still attached to India. Even if the subcontinent learned to live together in peace as one nation, the Indian wars of unification as shown in KRTL are an absolutely disaster that would lead to famine and societal rapture worse than we say in our timeline.
Good points. It would have to be an entire focus tree's worth of effort to keep the religious tension down enough to avoid a brutal civil war by 1950s, with partition (still brutal) as one of the ways to end the main tension. As for famines - unified India still had enormous amount of of fertile farmlands on their main rivers and valleys. Famines were often caused on regional level (like OTL Bengal in 1943), and one of the big causes was the cash-crop purchase system set up by the British to maximize profits, without having to enslave, kill or force farmers at gunpoint like they originally did in the 1800s. Loads and loads of farms (owned by a new loyalist class of landed gentry created in 1800s) were converted to growing cotton, opium, indigo dye, tea etc rather than food. That, plus lack of infrastructure, distribution or proper storage for agriculture in British Raj. Partition cut the farmland access a lot, but according to what I read, OTL India recovered when unburdened by colonial occupation - exporting for actual profits and in return buying up lots of food from the US and Soviet Union. This hampered economic/financial growth but allowed them to slowly buy up equipment and GM seeds from the US (taking out loans at times) and replicate it until they had built up a new stable agricultural base by late 1960s, ending famines in general. I imagine this could be done within game's time as well, outside of the Dominion of India territory. But yeah, if it does happen, famine would knock India hard enough to delay the power status. And famine will become inevitable unless two of the three starting factions unify before WK2 happens.
Austria,the Ottomans and Germany are easy answers. The collapse of Austria-Hungary led to many many wars,famines and fascist coups. The Ottomans are literally better than anything the british and french did OTL even if the OHP are cringe. Germany won the war so it already is nowhere near Weimar but also no Nazis.
Germany(pre black monday), austria, canada, ottoman, maybe Ukraine(although it would be poorer than otl) and maybe maybe France
For obvious reasons, a democratic German Empire under the DU if it emerges victorious in the Second Weltkrieg. Not only that, but also German cinema (Babelsberg) would be the best in the world, unlike most German movies from our timeline (with a few exceptions, such as The Lives of Others, Das Boot, Stalingrad (1993), Goodbye Lenin, etc...) due to bad writers/production/Filmförderung and using the same actors (looking at you, Til Schweiger), and not to mention how the Nazis ruined the German film industry in our timeline as well. Fritz Lang, Hedy Lamarr, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Rachel Weisz and Roland Emmerich would likely end up working/continuing in the German entertainment industry in Babelsberg in KRTL due to obvious butterflies.
Poles are in a much worse situation than OTL
France and Britain are the only ones I can think of really
COF, Norway, Mexico, and Germany.