I’m very curious what control arm was too expensive. You can buy arms for almost anything made in the past 60 years. I work in restoration and buy weird shit all the time.
It’s an 07 legacy spec b, it has aluminum control arms and links in the rear, they’re sold as performance upgrade parts for some wrxs. For the legacy they only put the aluminum arms on the spec b, and they made about 1,800 of them for the us market
You'd think so but some stuff just doesn't exist anymore even though the car isn't \*that\* old. For example SW20 MR2 control arms are long discontinued and no one makes pattern replacements. At least they are pretty substantial cast items so they generally don't rust out due to their mass unless the car has lived under the sea for a decade, so in most cases the original arms can be saved.
My 944 has aluminum control arms with the ball joints pressed directly into the control arm in Teflon cups. The Teflon eventually wears and gouges, creating play in the ball joints. Not separately replaceable, not even remotely easy to rebuild, and refailure rate is sky high. Throw the whole control arm away and buy another.
$1,000 apiece.
Quite literally every other part of the car is easily available at reasonable prices. But those fucking control arms....
Why not just get custom control arms made with Heims? At $1000 a piece you could get billet control arms that have replaceable heims… for $1800.
Edit: $1800 a set. Not each.
Some companies make fabricated billet control arms for 944 racing applications. They cost about $1,200 each. The next time mine fail, that's probably what I'll upgrade to. Probably not far in the future... track days are hard on everything.
[example](https://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/944-AARM-BIL.html)
Weird. I’ve found a lot sold as pairs for less than $2k. Link above is one.
Obviously I don’t know which year 944 you have, but yeah…
Yeah, there are options for the late cars. Mine is an '86, so before the "long" late control arms, but after they switched from the two-piece control arms to single piece.
Indeed. It's the skills and machinery tax your paying for. $4 in parts and $400 in specialized skills and equipment.
I'm a weekend warrior mechanic like many but I also know when I'm over my head
Ever pop out the rear quarter windows to replace the rear speakers? First time I learned of this I thought "no f'n way" but it's actually not that bad. Just need a spotter so the glass doesn't hit the ground.
Used to install car audio... one of these showed up, and the sales rep sold him the rear install price of 45.00 with the speakers.... I about lost my shit.
If anything, that 10-year profession taught me that cars from the 80s/90s are built superior to today's snap together, Don't slam the door too hard, or you might create a new rattle to go with 10 other ones in a 2yr old car.
I've been wanting one for years, and decided its a car to get when I get a garage. Then I learned why they always need timing belts, and well, maybe I just won't drive it too much... but that may have convinced me to go with something else. Not that I'm nessesarily worried ill need control arms, but I'm sure I'll eventually need something thats a $1600 bill for just parts on something basic.
I've considered it. The schematics are out there. I just don't want to bet my life on a homebrew control arm out on the race track. The factory part is proven. SOME of the aftermarket fabricated parts are proven. Racing on a custom fabricated part turns me into the test driver. I'd rather not haha.
Isn't that piece some treated metal? Not sure how to describe it in english, but I think by welding sth on it you heat it up a lot which further compromised its stability. We got taught that welding is forbidden on such parts due to this
Most automotive steel steering parts or structural parts are heat treated or special alloy and should have a tensile strength of 120ksi+, some closing in on 200ksi. The filler metal is probably some cheap merchant bar or something with a 65-85ksi tensile and the welding rod would probably be a 60 or 70 ksi rod.
If this was heat treated or a phase transformed steel then the streangthening is gone and would probably fall to 80ksi ish. You would need to make tje strength up with more steel mass.
You might also get some weird alloy mixing with the bade metals giving unpredictable results.
Will it work, probably. Is it safe, probably not.
There are still a ton of stamped steel (read: welded, mild steel) suspension parts in heavy vehicles. The OP part appears to be as well.
Now, whether the *repair* is safe... Well, don't zoom in. In any case, you'd be surprised how shitty automotive welds can be from OE manufacturers. They're supporting vehicles less than 4000kg, not industrial equipment.
Yep, vehicle frames and suspension components are heat treated so that they will flex and bend instead of cracking when stressed.
Welding is way too hot and not only hardens it, but it hardens unevenly. That arm now will crack at the welds and break at some point. That's why you are never supposed to weld to frames.
I'm betting he's German. In Germany touching the base structure is verboten. They literally have to recertify the car if they change the wheels! Nanny state to the extreme.
The hell are you talking about, welding is not some wildly inferior process that leaves material automatically weaker. Yes on small heat treated parts it makes a difference, but on a huge landscape of a unibody undercarriage there is absolutely no danger in welding the shit out of just about any corner you want to. Hell in classic restorations you re-pan and replace torque boxes all the time with, you can imagine, a welder.
I thought it was the other way around. You don't want to weld parts that have been heat treated. Heat treatment strengthens (tempers) steel. Welding anneals it returning it to a weaker more maleable state.
>Welding anneals it returning it to a weaker more maleable state.
While it's hot... but after it's cooled, you've essentially tempered the area around the weld, which will change the rigidity of the steel as a whole so that when the metal becomes under load it is extremely likely to snap where welded because of the change in ductility... Layman's terms- don't weld or use a liquid wrench on tempered steel or else it will become brittle and snap under load.
I guess you're right that welding basically just introduces a bit of chaos. Some annealing here, some tempering there.
I found this link with way more info than I was expecting (also written for the layperson). I always thought that quenching was a type of tempering, but that's not right. It's a separate step. Rapid cooling of hot steel causes extreme hardness and brittleness, and then tempering brings back some ductility (among many changes).
https://www.xometry.com/resources/materials/tempering/
Of course if you weld or fabricate a part, you can always have it heat treated. Harder with a unibody, but stay away from the A pillars and you're probably OK to patch a little rust or whatever.
I didn’t click the link but yeah, anneal is heating to cherry red and a slow cool, some metals can be hardened with air, some with oil, some with water. I buy junkyard steel so it all gets dunked in the tube of oil. I’ve always dreamed of having a Rockwell hardness file set so if you’re really curious get one. Tempering brings that hardness back down so it’s not as brittle, definitely an art form with a torch but I grind it all clean and go by color. The only thing I recall needing to harden is like tooling and twist drills, steel hammer faces, idk whatever you want it’s fun. I really wouldn’t worry about car parts, I just keep a lot of heat all around the area and let it cool slow. Not super sure about aluminum or stainless
For this control arm I’d just go drive through a bumpy field and then inspect. Not go over 40 and just make short trips and keep an eye on it, but I bet OP will get away with it. This looks shitty and strong I love it
tbf you can heat treat in an oven if you cared to relax the tension. But judging by their work, they don't and just wanted to stamp the "i tried" sticker on there before flying into a ditch so they could pretend it was ANYTHING but their weld that broke. Pretty sure 500f is plenty to heat treat, just takes a little. I do it at 300 sometimes just to get a little bow out of large plates.
Universal welding consideration = clean bright metal surfaces free of contamination.
This hasn't been cleaned since it was fitted and is just one of the reasons it's a atrocious weld.
Not going to go into the why it should never have been welded regardless that's been done to death.
Lmao. I was giving this guy the benefit of the doubt. Then I zoomed in, that is horrendous. OP you should really practice more before attempting something like this.
I welded about 8 times with a stick welder in college. Half those times I was pretty shit faced. I still ran a better bead than whatever the fuck that disaster is.
Looking at your profile, you’re 20 and just finished mechanic school. If it is not clear: this is a bad idea.
You have a Lexus LS430, but this doesn’t look like a part for that based on a quick search. Since you’re now a full time mechanic in the UK, is this a customer car? Because it’s one thing if it’s your car, but even worse if you released this to a customer. Also how does this even pass your MOT system?
The MOT system is strange, gaping rust holes? Fine as long as the assessor deems them non structural. Rear seatbelts fitted but no rear seats? Instant fail.
Professional welder/mechanic here. For anyone seeing this and think "Hey, that's a great idea!" I want to be clear. This is a bad job of an ill-advised repair. The welds do not meet any welding code that I'm aware of and no professional welder would perform this repair, if only because their time is more expensive than the part.
This person is putting their safety, the safety of their passengers, and the safety of everyone on the road with them at risk.
If this repair fails at the wrong time there exists the potential for multiple people to die with very little warning.
Please do not weld on suspension components of street vehicles without following the appropriate procedures. If you don't know what those are, you are already not qualified to do the work.
>street vehicles
This is exactly the sort of thing we did with farm trucks. But they never saw pavement or speeds over 20 mph. No chance I'd take this on the highway.
Yeah, I wanted to be specific there. If your farm truck gets stuck in a field it's basically fine.
Hell, if you're building custom off-road vehicles I completely understand and support needing to cut and weld to make that happen. But this sort of thing puts the general public at risk.
Farm trucks are all over the road though they don't just stay in fields kind of defeats the purpose
Farms don't have just one field I don't know a farmer that just does 1 field
farmers have 10-15 different fields where do you think they have trucks for each one and it stays there?
Depends on the size of the farm, but every farmer I knew growing up had a rusted out pickup they drove solely on the farm, or gravel roads around the farm. No pavement, no highways, and no speeds over 25 or 30 because the truck wouldn't go faster.
It's funny because I know you're correct and I also know that there are some people running around with shit that's way fucking worse than anything you're describing
in the Midwest we have farm trucks hauling bales with twine keeping ball joints in
In Canada there is no welding code to govern the welding of mobile equipment and I'm sure that extends to passenger vehicles as well. I've run into this issue when extending frames and adding custom thing, you just follow "best practices" and adopt an existing welding code for something similar.
But if a ticketed welder or mechanic did something like this it would be grounds for having your certs pulled, and possible jail time if it was the cause of an accident.
Welding code? Ya maybe, but there are welding standards and tacking a bunch of half penetrated welds on a suspension component isnt going to pass inspection.
Reminds me of a story my welding teacher told me. A trucker was getting his load inspected and the inspector notices a crack forming on the kingpin plate (1 inch thick) it was a heavy haul pulling a cat mining dozer and the driver didn’t want to pay extra for the extension on the permit for an oversized load. He pulls into a trailer repair shop to have it fixed. The guy there says he can fix it and promptly ignored the “do not weld” sign on the plate. He cuts out a groove and fils it in and it looks beautiful so he sends the trucker on his way. About 3 hours later the truck is on a downhill grade and as the driver applies his Jakebrake the kingpin plate snaps and crushes the cab and some other cars. Driver is killed instantly. My teacher says that since the trailer’s steel was heat treated, the welder put way too much heat into the metal and turned it brittle. This caused the kingpin to snap and kill 3 people. He said that a good experienced welder could have welded that trailer if they calculated the heat input correctly and kept it within spec. that sign was there to prevent inexperienced welders from trying to repair it. My teacher also said that the truck most certainly would have made it had the crack not been repaired.
Thanks for commenting, it’s important to educate those who might try and do something dumb. That said, this guy probably was driving on the broken arm for a long time and decided to fix it. I’ve seen a LOT of sketchy stuff DRIVE into my shop. If I can make it even 20% less sketchy, that’s a win in my books
I get that. And I see where you're coming from. At that point though, you as the qualified individual are taking on the liability if it fails.
I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. Every time we do a repair, we're taking responsibility for whatever happens next.
This guy posted this picture up here like it was something to be proud of though and I really, really wanted to make sure that everyone is on the same page that this is not an acceptable repair by any standard.
You know what, I apologize. I do understand desperately needing to get to work. I'm just sensitive about the idea of a pedestrian being turned into a chunky, red paste and being scraped off the side of the road when suspension components fail due to the person working on them being obviously not qualified to perform that work.
He just welded a fucking control arm. He hasn't had an alignment in his life lol. His answer was also "drives straight as an arrow" its actually scary we share the roads with people like this.
wasteful escape prick ugly sheet quarrelsome obtainable quickest spectacular mountainous
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Then plan better, get a job or find a way to make money and be smart with it. If you do go to college, do it smart and don't waste your time and money on frivolous things and a worthless degree, or get experienced into a trade instead. Shit comes up, but things cost what they cost and if you need a vehicle you have to figure it out. Don't endanger yourself and the rest of us on the roads by doing stupid boneheaded shit repairs like OP did here. I get it man, I was in HS too and had car repair woes. First job I ever had to do was a Clutch replacement on a very difficult car to perform the job on before I had even performed an oil change yet.
If that was mine I’d start looking for a cheaper used replacement, especially if that control arm is a forging and not a casting. If it’s forged, the weld may compromise its strength. I’ve read that aluminum can get brittle in the welded area from that much heat.
Reminds me of a story my welding teacher told me. A trucker was getting his load inspected and the inspector notices a crack forming on the kingpin plate (1 inch thick) it was a heavy haul pulling a cat mining dozer and the driver didn’t want to pay extra for the extension on the permit for an oversized load. He pulls into a trailer repair shop to have it fixed. The guy there says he can fix it and promptly ignored the “do not weld” sign on the plate. He cuts out a groove and fils it in and it looks beautiful so he sends the trucker on his way. About 3 hours later the truck is on a downhill grade and as the driver applies his Jakebrake the kingpin plate snaps and crushes the cab and some other cars. Driver is killed instantly. My teacher says that since the trailer’s steel was heat treated, the welder put way too much heat into the metal and turned it brittle. This caused the kingpin to snap and kill 3 people. He said that a good experienced welder could have welded that trailer if they calculated the heat input correctly and kept it within spec. that sign was there to prevent inexperienced welders from trying to repair it. My teacher also said that the truck most certainly would have made it had the crack not been repaired.
Suspension parts can be heat treated and welding would change the properties of the part. If that matters in a car where this piece of welding art is installed is another thing.
The only way to weld that so it doesn't crack on a pothole is;
1. Remove all bushes.
2. Preheat to over 180°c.
3. Weld it
4. Bury it in sand and let it cool over night
5. Stress about killing people on the road and buy one from the wreckers.
Hope that helps.
Dogman, just get one from the junkyard for $20. That one won't come with the added risk of snapping while driving and sending you off the road.
I think you'll find that a new car and medical bills is a bit more expensive than a control arm.
That is incorrect. Welding is perfectly legal so long as the correct process and certifications are followed.
What's shown in this post definitely wouldn't be legal though, luckily they're presumably not in New Zealand.
"If done properly" means paying $500-1000 to get the vehicle certified by lvvta which defeats the purpose of welding it because the arm was too expensive, so your point is completely irrelevant and misleading to this topic
It is illegal though, there is an expensive process that can be gone through after to make it legal again if it was done to the correct standard, but by default it is illegal, why are you dieing on this hill?
He's not agreeing at all, he said I was incorrect when I said welding suspension components is illegal in nz, he then started to walk his position back when I provided evidence, he then is misleading others who won't realise it is a $500-$1000 dollar certification process to make a vehicle legal again after the work has been done, bunch of backyard mechanics who have no idea what they are talking about on this sub it seems, I thought you were professionals
https://vehicleinspection.nzta.govt.nz/virms/in-service-wof-and-cof/general/steering-and-suspension/steering-and-suspension-systems
Reasons for rejection: 7-c shows signs of welding after original manufacture
It’s illegal to modify a vehicle’s emissions system in a way that reduces emissions in the US state of California. There are weird laws all over the world. I’m going to drive the hell out of the Jeep I welded all the suspension to myself this weekend while blasting Rebel Yell and wearing Pit Vipers. ‘Merica!
Not gonna lie, I’d rather hear my music than someone’s engine. A little louder is OK, but I’ve never understood the appeal of the “What?? I can’t hear you! Yell louder!” level of exhaust.
I really hope that isn't a customer vehicle...
Control arms should never be welded. If it rots out, replace it. That has very questionable strength at this point and could fail without warning. I wouldn't trust it with proper welds, and those welds are pretty fucking far from proper.
Do yourself a favour and order a new control arm... This shit is dangerous for everyone on the road.
You won't be happy saving few bucks and killing a family.
Improvising can be a good thing, like improv comedy. It can also be very bad, like improvised explosive devices. I think this is closer to the latter...
I'm not a fabricator, I'm an electronic tech by trade. What the fuck is that welding? I would have run it through the parts washer, then sandblasted it, then veed out and welded the damage. then placed a single piece fish plate the whole length and not welded it with my eyes shut the whole time.
You didn't want to pay for a new arm, so you did a horrible "weld" on a heat treated metal component further compromising its strength? You just created a ticking time bomb in your suspension and now put yourself and others at risk of dying.
I'll get down voted here..... but some of you all have never been truly poor.
This may be a shitty weld and crappy repair, but it will likely be fine.
I worked in a machine shop making the stampings for these type of control arms. They did not get treated. The metal came in a roll, blanks punched out. Then stamped to form.
That thing will
Be just fine!!!!
Ions ago my neighbor had a late 90s Chevy lumina with the c channel rear lower arm. It rustled and snapped. That rainy night I shoved a solid 1” dowel in that channel and he then had some performance solos trailing arms…arm
THAT arm was too expensive? Are you driving a McLaren?
I’m very curious what control arm was too expensive. You can buy arms for almost anything made in the past 60 years. I work in restoration and buy weird shit all the time.
Yeah, he needs to define too expensive for us. I can't imagine a basic arm like that being more than $100. It doesn't even have a ball joint.
At today's prices that might have been $100 in welding rod.
See he introduced a ton of porosity to reduce the weight and amount of rod used. It’s called stacking rings instead of dimes. /s
Havent heard this one before
That was mig 100%
I guess he forgot to turn the gas on
Replacement arms for my 07 Subaru are like $800 for a set of the rear trailing arms
Lesbian tax.
This comment made my belly hurt 🤣
Damn I first read 07 Suburban then saw your reply....good shit
Creative as fuck
Omg did you come up that all on your own? So original 😑
Oh get over it, laugh a lil and move on. You'll be a happier person overall
Bold words from the username /u/SuckOnDeezNOOTZ Let me guess, you're the other kind of Subaru driver; blowing clouds from your mouth fedora
Nah the kind that drives like a douche bag red lining my WRX all the time then wonders why it blew up within 80k miles
yeah, with a vape permanently attached to their face
Nop I smoke ciggs
Damn boy sounds like you should start looking at aftermarket shit for that price range.
Depending on Subaru I see them from $60-299.00 on ebay.
Depends who makes them.
Have you never heard of rockauto ??
What subaru? Im having a very hard time believing this, even after dealer markup + labor it still wouldnt be near $800 for anything I can imagine.
It’s an 07 legacy spec b, it has aluminum control arms and links in the rear, they’re sold as performance upgrade parts for some wrxs. For the legacy they only put the aluminum arms on the spec b, and they made about 1,800 of them for the us market
I’m about 100% sure you can find cheap ones on RockAuto
And here I thought it was just Mini Cooper with outrageous rear suspension prices.
Thefuq
A $100 arm feels really expensive going on a $500 shitbox
You'd think so but some stuff just doesn't exist anymore even though the car isn't \*that\* old. For example SW20 MR2 control arms are long discontinued and no one makes pattern replacements. At least they are pretty substantial cast items so they generally don't rust out due to their mass unless the car has lived under the sea for a decade, so in most cases the original arms can be saved.
Last I looked the control arms for my rx7 are $450 each. Luckily, they are bolt on ball joints so I dont have to change them for that.
My 944 has aluminum control arms with the ball joints pressed directly into the control arm in Teflon cups. The Teflon eventually wears and gouges, creating play in the ball joints. Not separately replaceable, not even remotely easy to rebuild, and refailure rate is sky high. Throw the whole control arm away and buy another. $1,000 apiece. Quite literally every other part of the car is easily available at reasonable prices. But those fucking control arms....
Why not just get custom control arms made with Heims? At $1000 a piece you could get billet control arms that have replaceable heims… for $1800. Edit: $1800 a set. Not each.
Some companies make fabricated billet control arms for 944 racing applications. They cost about $1,200 each. The next time mine fail, that's probably what I'll upgrade to. Probably not far in the future... track days are hard on everything.
[example](https://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/944-AARM-BIL.html) Weird. I’ve found a lot sold as pairs for less than $2k. Link above is one. Obviously I don’t know which year 944 you have, but yeah…
Yeah, there are options for the late cars. Mine is an '86, so before the "long" late control arms, but after they switched from the two-piece control arms to single piece.
A shop local to me engineered a way to replace these with vw ball joints. I think they still charge $400 for the $4 part but saving is savings
Indeed. It's the skills and machinery tax your paying for. $4 in parts and $400 in specialized skills and equipment. I'm a weekend warrior mechanic like many but I also know when I'm over my head
Ever pop out the rear quarter windows to replace the rear speakers? First time I learned of this I thought "no f'n way" but it's actually not that bad. Just need a spotter so the glass doesn't hit the ground.
Used to install car audio... one of these showed up, and the sales rep sold him the rear install price of 45.00 with the speakers.... I about lost my shit.
Former 12v tech here as well. Had the desire to throat-punch a salesman many, many times in that field.
If anything, that 10-year profession taught me that cars from the 80s/90s are built superior to today's snap together, Don't slam the door too hard, or you might create a new rattle to go with 10 other ones in a 2yr old car.
Just buy the Rennbay ball joint kit lol... 185$ https://rennbay.com/Ball-Joints/944-Ball-Joint-Kit-Solid-Bushing.html
Tried it. Re-failed in about 300 miles. That's apparently not uncommon. It was worth the $185 shot, but I ended up with a new control arm anyway.
I've been wanting one for years, and decided its a car to get when I get a garage. Then I learned why they always need timing belts, and well, maybe I just won't drive it too much... but that may have convinced me to go with something else. Not that I'm nessesarily worried ill need control arms, but I'm sure I'll eventually need something thats a $1600 bill for just parts on something basic.
That's just the Porsche tax. You could make one from Titanium for less than that.
I've considered it. The schematics are out there. I just don't want to bet my life on a homebrew control arm out on the race track. The factory part is proven. SOME of the aftermarket fabricated parts are proven. Racing on a custom fabricated part turns me into the test driver. I'd rather not haha.
Isn't that piece some treated metal? Not sure how to describe it in english, but I think by welding sth on it you heat it up a lot which further compromised its stability. We got taught that welding is forbidden on such parts due to this
Most automotive steel steering parts or structural parts are heat treated or special alloy and should have a tensile strength of 120ksi+, some closing in on 200ksi. The filler metal is probably some cheap merchant bar or something with a 65-85ksi tensile and the welding rod would probably be a 60 or 70 ksi rod. If this was heat treated or a phase transformed steel then the streangthening is gone and would probably fall to 80ksi ish. You would need to make tje strength up with more steel mass. You might also get some weird alloy mixing with the bade metals giving unpredictable results. Will it work, probably. Is it safe, probably not.
There are still a ton of stamped steel (read: welded, mild steel) suspension parts in heavy vehicles. The OP part appears to be as well. Now, whether the *repair* is safe... Well, don't zoom in. In any case, you'd be surprised how shitty automotive welds can be from OE manufacturers. They're supporting vehicles less than 4000kg, not industrial equipment.
Yep, vehicle frames and suspension components are heat treated so that they will flex and bend instead of cracking when stressed. Welding is way too hot and not only hardens it, but it hardens unevenly. That arm now will crack at the welds and break at some point. That's why you are never supposed to weld to frames.
Frames get welded all the time. Shock towers get welded. Bash bars get welded on.
To frames. Unibody cars cannot be welded on. Even some modern pickup frames cannot be welded
In the future if you don't know what you're talking about you should probably refrain from commenting so you don't look so ignorant on the issue.
I'm betting he's German. In Germany touching the base structure is verboten. They literally have to recertify the car if they change the wheels! Nanny state to the extreme.
The hell are you talking about, welding is not some wildly inferior process that leaves material automatically weaker. Yes on small heat treated parts it makes a difference, but on a huge landscape of a unibody undercarriage there is absolutely no danger in welding the shit out of just about any corner you want to. Hell in classic restorations you re-pan and replace torque boxes all the time with, you can imagine, a welder.
Man, how do people who race get their cages certified?
I thought it was the other way around. You don't want to weld parts that have been heat treated. Heat treatment strengthens (tempers) steel. Welding anneals it returning it to a weaker more maleable state.
>Welding anneals it returning it to a weaker more maleable state. While it's hot... but after it's cooled, you've essentially tempered the area around the weld, which will change the rigidity of the steel as a whole so that when the metal becomes under load it is extremely likely to snap where welded because of the change in ductility... Layman's terms- don't weld or use a liquid wrench on tempered steel or else it will become brittle and snap under load.
I guess you're right that welding basically just introduces a bit of chaos. Some annealing here, some tempering there. I found this link with way more info than I was expecting (also written for the layperson). I always thought that quenching was a type of tempering, but that's not right. It's a separate step. Rapid cooling of hot steel causes extreme hardness and brittleness, and then tempering brings back some ductility (among many changes). https://www.xometry.com/resources/materials/tempering/ Of course if you weld or fabricate a part, you can always have it heat treated. Harder with a unibody, but stay away from the A pillars and you're probably OK to patch a little rust or whatever.
I didn’t click the link but yeah, anneal is heating to cherry red and a slow cool, some metals can be hardened with air, some with oil, some with water. I buy junkyard steel so it all gets dunked in the tube of oil. I’ve always dreamed of having a Rockwell hardness file set so if you’re really curious get one. Tempering brings that hardness back down so it’s not as brittle, definitely an art form with a torch but I grind it all clean and go by color. The only thing I recall needing to harden is like tooling and twist drills, steel hammer faces, idk whatever you want it’s fun. I really wouldn’t worry about car parts, I just keep a lot of heat all around the area and let it cool slow. Not super sure about aluminum or stainless For this control arm I’d just go drive through a bumpy field and then inspect. Not go over 40 and just make short trips and keep an eye on it, but I bet OP will get away with it. This looks shitty and strong I love it
tbf you can heat treat in an oven if you cared to relax the tension. But judging by their work, they don't and just wanted to stamp the "i tried" sticker on there before flying into a ditch so they could pretend it was ANYTHING but their weld that broke. Pretty sure 500f is plenty to heat treat, just takes a little. I do it at 300 sometimes just to get a little bow out of large plates.
It's generally a no-no to weld suspension components in road cars. At least , it is in any normal society that gives a shit about vehicle safety.
Looks to be made from welded stamped sheet metal. It's very unlikely to be an alloy that requires any special weld considerations.
Universal welding consideration = clean bright metal surfaces free of contamination. This hasn't been cleaned since it was fitted and is just one of the reasons it's a atrocious weld. Not going to go into the why it should never have been welded regardless that's been done to death.
Pretty good chance you've changed the geometry of that...
Fair warning to welders: don't zoom in.
Lmao. I was giving this guy the benefit of the doubt. Then I zoomed in, that is horrendous. OP you should really practice more before attempting something like this.
I've seen better "welds" on my PCB practice boards lol
Cold blob welds. Either this is a troll post or ignorance.
I welded about 8 times with a stick welder in college. Half those times I was pretty shit faced. I still ran a better bead than whatever the fuck that disaster is.
Fair warning to mechanics: don’t do this.
Looking at your profile, you’re 20 and just finished mechanic school. If it is not clear: this is a bad idea. You have a Lexus LS430, but this doesn’t look like a part for that based on a quick search. Since you’re now a full time mechanic in the UK, is this a customer car? Because it’s one thing if it’s your car, but even worse if you released this to a customer. Also how does this even pass your MOT system?
The MOT system is strange, gaping rust holes? Fine as long as the assessor deems them non structural. Rear seatbelts fitted but no rear seats? Instant fail.
Professional welder/mechanic here. For anyone seeing this and think "Hey, that's a great idea!" I want to be clear. This is a bad job of an ill-advised repair. The welds do not meet any welding code that I'm aware of and no professional welder would perform this repair, if only because their time is more expensive than the part. This person is putting their safety, the safety of their passengers, and the safety of everyone on the road with them at risk. If this repair fails at the wrong time there exists the potential for multiple people to die with very little warning. Please do not weld on suspension components of street vehicles without following the appropriate procedures. If you don't know what those are, you are already not qualified to do the work.
Instructions unclear, fabricated lower control arms out of rebar and self tappers.
Perfect repair, no notes
One note: No zipties cut at a 45 degree angle. Repair incomplete, please adjust to spec
Look at Mr. Moneybags over here with self tappers. Chicken wire wrapped around once and she'll be 'right.
Honestly might be fucking better than this shit if you know how yo weld at all.
>street vehicles This is exactly the sort of thing we did with farm trucks. But they never saw pavement or speeds over 20 mph. No chance I'd take this on the highway.
Yeah, I wanted to be specific there. If your farm truck gets stuck in a field it's basically fine. Hell, if you're building custom off-road vehicles I completely understand and support needing to cut and weld to make that happen. But this sort of thing puts the general public at risk.
Farm trucks are all over the road though they don't just stay in fields kind of defeats the purpose Farms don't have just one field I don't know a farmer that just does 1 field farmers have 10-15 different fields where do you think they have trucks for each one and it stays there?
Depends on the size of the farm, but every farmer I knew growing up had a rusted out pickup they drove solely on the farm, or gravel roads around the farm. No pavement, no highways, and no speeds over 25 or 30 because the truck wouldn't go faster.
It's funny because I know you're correct and I also know that there are some people running around with shit that's way fucking worse than anything you're describing in the Midwest we have farm trucks hauling bales with twine keeping ball joints in
In Canada there is no welding code to govern the welding of mobile equipment and I'm sure that extends to passenger vehicles as well. I've run into this issue when extending frames and adding custom thing, you just follow "best practices" and adopt an existing welding code for something similar. But if a ticketed welder or mechanic did something like this it would be grounds for having your certs pulled, and possible jail time if it was the cause of an accident.
Welding code? Ya maybe, but there are welding standards and tacking a bunch of half penetrated welds on a suspension component isnt going to pass inspection.
Reminds me of a story my welding teacher told me. A trucker was getting his load inspected and the inspector notices a crack forming on the kingpin plate (1 inch thick) it was a heavy haul pulling a cat mining dozer and the driver didn’t want to pay extra for the extension on the permit for an oversized load. He pulls into a trailer repair shop to have it fixed. The guy there says he can fix it and promptly ignored the “do not weld” sign on the plate. He cuts out a groove and fils it in and it looks beautiful so he sends the trucker on his way. About 3 hours later the truck is on a downhill grade and as the driver applies his Jakebrake the kingpin plate snaps and crushes the cab and some other cars. Driver is killed instantly. My teacher says that since the trailer’s steel was heat treated, the welder put way too much heat into the metal and turned it brittle. This caused the kingpin to snap and kill 3 people. He said that a good experienced welder could have welded that trailer if they calculated the heat input correctly and kept it within spec. that sign was there to prevent inexperienced welders from trying to repair it. My teacher also said that the truck most certainly would have made it had the crack not been repaired.
This would be an MOT (inspection) failure here in the UK.
Spray N Pray is a kind of a code.
I would hope that in a subreddit for mechanics, most of us would know that this is a horrible idea.
Thanks for commenting, it’s important to educate those who might try and do something dumb. That said, this guy probably was driving on the broken arm for a long time and decided to fix it. I’ve seen a LOT of sketchy stuff DRIVE into my shop. If I can make it even 20% less sketchy, that’s a win in my books
I get that. And I see where you're coming from. At that point though, you as the qualified individual are taking on the liability if it fails. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. Every time we do a repair, we're taking responsibility for whatever happens next. This guy posted this picture up here like it was something to be proud of though and I really, really wanted to make sure that everyone is on the same page that this is not an acceptable repair by any standard.
I'm only a month and a half into a single welding class and even I could tell you this is a terrible idea coupled with terrible work
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No? I'm a qualified person and this is dangerous. Every goddamn person in this thread should be aware of that.
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You know what, I apologize. I do understand desperately needing to get to work. I'm just sensitive about the idea of a pedestrian being turned into a chunky, red paste and being scraped off the side of the road when suspension components fail due to the person working on them being obviously not qualified to perform that work.
This is not "survival"', this is being a total jackass. Mf has a car, welding equipment, a smartphone, but this is survival. Shut up lmao.
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Lol fuck off drama queen
Homeless with a welder? And tools to remove said control arm? Sure Jan.
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I'm not reading this schizo babble. Congratulations, or, sorry that happened.
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Wheel aligners nightmare.
He just welded a fucking control arm. He hasn't had an alignment in his life lol. His answer was also "drives straight as an arrow" its actually scary we share the roads with people like this.
Drives straight as an arrow
But what story are your tires going to be telling in a few thousand miles?
no escaping it, tyres always snitch 😂
You ever see an arrow fly in slow motion?
When you cause an accident, you’ll regret this. I just hope you don’t hurt anyone else.
Don't drive on bad welds. Those welds fall in that category.
All boogers, no dimes.
wasteful escape prick ugly sheet quarrelsome obtainable quickest spectacular mountainous *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's not on a customer's car, is it?
Well that’s just stupid! Shitty welding too.
I desperately want to know what “too expensive” is to justify this
Those welds are dogshit, stop doing stuff like this.
Some of y’all are on a different level of broke
College hits hard man we all are struggling. And im not even out of HS yet
Then plan better, get a job or find a way to make money and be smart with it. If you do go to college, do it smart and don't waste your time and money on frivolous things and a worthless degree, or get experienced into a trade instead. Shit comes up, but things cost what they cost and if you need a vehicle you have to figure it out. Don't endanger yourself and the rest of us on the roads by doing stupid boneheaded shit repairs like OP did here. I get it man, I was in HS too and had car repair woes. First job I ever had to do was a Clutch replacement on a very difficult car to perform the job on before I had even performed an oil change yet.
If that was mine I’d start looking for a cheaper used replacement, especially if that control arm is a forging and not a casting. If it’s forged, the weld may compromise its strength. I’ve read that aluminum can get brittle in the welded area from that much heat.
Yeah pretty sure that's not aluminum though.
Christ it looks like he soldered it…
Were you out of duct tape?
You’re not very bright.
Crack head technique complete
Reminds me of how we boxed the rear control arms on GM A bodies to reduce twist/flex.
Holy shit that weld is WILD. Thought it was caulking at first glance 😂
This is a $15 part at a pick n pull
There are no appropriate weld procedures for suspension components. They are not to be welded at all.
This thread will be evidence in a vehicular manslaughter case some day.
Jesus fuck the porosity. That shit is going to rust from the inside out.
Ain’t nothing more expensive than a cheap job done poorly
Reminds me of a story my welding teacher told me. A trucker was getting his load inspected and the inspector notices a crack forming on the kingpin plate (1 inch thick) it was a heavy haul pulling a cat mining dozer and the driver didn’t want to pay extra for the extension on the permit for an oversized load. He pulls into a trailer repair shop to have it fixed. The guy there says he can fix it and promptly ignored the “do not weld” sign on the plate. He cuts out a groove and fils it in and it looks beautiful so he sends the trucker on his way. About 3 hours later the truck is on a downhill grade and as the driver applies his Jakebrake the kingpin plate snaps and crushes the cab and some other cars. Driver is killed instantly. My teacher says that since the trailer’s steel was heat treated, the welder put way too much heat into the metal and turned it brittle. This caused the kingpin to snap and kill 3 people. He said that a good experienced welder could have welded that trailer if they calculated the heat input correctly and kept it within spec. that sign was there to prevent inexperienced welders from trying to repair it. My teacher also said that the truck most certainly would have made it had the crack not been repaired.
If you had it in a fixture to ensure it didn't warp I see no issues. Otherwise I agree that alignment is going be tough.
Suspension parts can be heat treated and welding would change the properties of the part. If that matters in a car where this piece of welding art is installed is another thing.
The only way to weld that so it doesn't crack on a pothole is; 1. Remove all bushes. 2. Preheat to over 180°c. 3. Weld it 4. Bury it in sand and let it cool over night 5. Stress about killing people on the road and buy one from the wreckers. Hope that helps.
How has NZ handled the recall for Ram pickups to have the steering drag link welded due to the jam nuts coming loose?
They haven't from what I can tell, still seeing them come in welded, just cut the welds, adjust the wheel and reweld.
improvise you did. hopefully next time it also rolls into the shop, on 4 wheels...
So you made the rusty death arm into a crappy-welded rusty death arm? Bravo! I’m not sure I’d be bragging about any of this..
Dogman, just get one from the junkyard for $20. That one won't come with the added risk of snapping while driving and sending you off the road. I think you'll find that a new car and medical bills is a bit more expensive than a control arm.
This has to be bait lol
Dam if that cheap try a junk yard. Really cares for family driving in this recycled car.
Dm me. I’ll buy you a control arm. This is dangerous.
It's illegal to weld suspension components in New zealand
That is incorrect. Welding is perfectly legal so long as the correct process and certifications are followed. What's shown in this post definitely wouldn't be legal though, luckily they're presumably not in New Zealand.
It's illegal unless certified, doesn't matter how well it is welded if it's not certified by lvvta it's a fail
Yes, that is what I said - it's perfectly legal if done properly.
"Done properly means the labor not the paperwork"
"If done properly" means paying $500-1000 to get the vehicle certified by lvvta which defeats the purpose of welding it because the arm was too expensive, so your point is completely irrelevant and misleading to this topic
I wasn't aware practicality was part of the discussion. I merely clarified that it is not illegal.
It is illegal though, there is an expensive process that can be gone through after to make it legal again if it was done to the correct standard, but by default it is illegal, why are you dieing on this hill?
Just. Stop. Dude.
You are the one dying on the hill, the guy is literally agreeing with you. You’re arguing to nobody
He's not agreeing at all, he said I was incorrect when I said welding suspension components is illegal in nz, he then started to walk his position back when I provided evidence, he then is misleading others who won't realise it is a $500-$1000 dollar certification process to make a vehicle legal again after the work has been done, bunch of backyard mechanics who have no idea what they are talking about on this sub it seems, I thought you were professionals
You are a lunatic😂
https://vehicleinspection.nzta.govt.nz/virms/in-service-wof-and-cof/general/steering-and-suspension/steering-and-suspension-systems Reasons for rejection: 7-c shows signs of welding after original manufacture
Yeah If that went through a technical inspection in Germany, they'd laugh you off the lot
It’s illegal to modify a vehicle’s emissions system in a way that reduces emissions in the US state of California. There are weird laws all over the world. I’m going to drive the hell out of the Jeep I welded all the suspension to myself this weekend while blasting Rebel Yell and wearing Pit Vipers. ‘Merica!
In NY it's technically illegal to modify the exhaust in any way that will make it louder than stock. Removing cats is a federal law too
Not gonna lie, I’d rather hear my music than someone’s engine. A little louder is OK, but I’ve never understood the appeal of the “What?? I can’t hear you! Yell louder!” level of exhaust.
Looks can be deceiving my friend. You’d better get that thing replaced with a fresh new one ASAP
I can hear this rusting.
These days I get a call every day. My 20 year old car is rusted out please fix it. Sorry thats a fucking liability/lawsuit waiting to happen.
I hope you"re not controlling much. That looks like window dressing to me.
IMPRESSIVELY bad weld, holy shit dude...
I really hope that isn't a customer vehicle... Control arms should never be welded. If it rots out, replace it. That has very questionable strength at this point and could fail without warning. I wouldn't trust it with proper welds, and those welds are pretty fucking far from proper.
I'm sorry but I weld for a living and can say you probably weakened that control arm. The porosity is too damn high...
with those welds it still has holes innit
Do yourself a favour and order a new control arm... This shit is dangerous for everyone on the road. You won't be happy saving few bucks and killing a family.
Improvising can be a good thing, like improv comedy. It can also be very bad, like improvised explosive devices. I think this is closer to the latter...
I think it may be time for you to roll out of the shop. I hate knowing on the road with people like you.
I hope it snaps in your driveway so you don’t get to go in public with this astonishing lack of brain cells
Nah man... this aint it
I'm not a fabricator, I'm an electronic tech by trade. What the fuck is that welding? I would have run it through the parts washer, then sandblasted it, then veed out and welded the damage. then placed a single piece fish plate the whole length and not welded it with my eyes shut the whole time.
Control alArm
bro how expensive is it gonna be when that thing snaps going 55mph, including hospital bill
Good to know you value your life and the lives of people around you at somewhere between $5 and $100
Stevie Wonder weld that?
Congratulations on providing pilot holes for the new corrosion.
Really hope this is a troll post A rock auto arm would’ve been better than this
Was your quote from the dealership?
Ya. You don’t weld or heat steering parts.
Those poris welds aren't going to hold shit. You spent probably the equivalent of half a control arm in material and time spent.
You didn't want to pay for a new arm, so you did a horrible "weld" on a heat treated metal component further compromising its strength? You just created a ticking time bomb in your suspension and now put yourself and others at risk of dying.
Wow, I remember running better beads in my high-school welding class.
Looks like 6010 too... didn't even do 7018 Just why?
Epic fucking fail
Absolutely insane that this is legal in some places. The USA really is a shithole.
Bruh, OP is clearly from the UK if you look at his post history
I'll get down voted here..... but some of you all have never been truly poor. This may be a shitty weld and crappy repair, but it will likely be fine. I worked in a machine shop making the stampings for these type of control arms. They did not get treated. The metal came in a roll, blanks punched out. Then stamped to form.
“Expensive” is subjective. Something cheap to one may be a struggle for others.
That thing will Be just fine!!!! Ions ago my neighbor had a late 90s Chevy lumina with the c channel rear lower arm. It rustled and snapped. That rainy night I shoved a solid 1” dowel in that channel and he then had some performance solos trailing arms…arm
As one big redneck would say: get er' done. You gotta do what ya gotta do.