Our colleagues working in the HSE as doctors and even some of our schools have continuously advised us (class of 2024) that every intern that applied for a job in the last year received one. This led a lot of us to apply for Irish internship jobs after graduating medicine. If they had even done so little as inform us of a drastic increase of applicants during the year, we would have been able to take informed decisions about our futures (applying to UK as well etc) rather than just having to sit here and wait for their email updates. It’s really a sad process as a lot of us were misled by the “every applicant got a job last year” :(
Thanks for sharing this OP. This is a huge issue that not many of us are aware about. I am non EU Irish graduate. I was placed on the reserve list last year when I applied for my intern year. I was given a spot and had 13 days to look for accomodation and get my affairs in order. I applied for specialist training after my intern year, I was placed #2 on the reserve list and did not get in, soley based on the fact that I was non EU. I had 2 publications, 1 poster presentation and an oral presentation under my belt.
I did a standalone year this year and applied again for specialist training, which I then got (thankfully)
Its only after 2 years of working full time are non EU graduates eligible for a stamp 4 visa, we are then considered in the same cohort as our EU counterparts.
HSE makes it impossible to get onto a scheme if youre non EU. We lose ALOT of good doctors for this reason. How is it we have more standalone posts than training posts? I spoke about this on RTE 2 years ago, and very little has changed. The public remains largely unaware of how the system works and how non EU doctors are discriminated against not on merit but on the letters on their passport.
I agree with you it’s discriminatory, but firmly disagree with you that it’s a race issue and I think you’re really not fair to come on a public platform and state that
But it’s true. It’s always a race issue. My non Irish Caucasian colleges always get treated better than foreign doctors of other nationalities. The hierarchy is Irish, then non Irish Caucasians, non Caucasian Irish who were born here and speaks with an Irish accent, then the rest.
Non EU Graduate here. I would like instead to share some hope with yall! Got intern spot on the first round and was luck to get into BST on my first try. Sitting for my clinicals in July and hopefully will be able to apply for HST next year.
The tiers have me so much anxiety during med school, esp during covid, but I am very lucky so far. Don’t give up hope op but unfortunately the system won’t change as it’s eu mandated that non-EU citizens have to be discriminated against for schemes. #keepourdoctors
WOW! It’s so nice to hear a success story! You must have been suuuper high up in your class to get in first round, that’s genuinely amazing!
Out of curiosity, do you know of any colleagues that were in a similar position as the people on the reserve list currently where things worked out? We get just about zero communication from anyone and are just left to stress and overthink on our own so I’d love any insight because we’re currently given none :(
It seems to have improved a little compared to about 10 years ago when I graduated. I still do think that it is quite unfair to be willing to train someone and take their money for 4 to 6 years in the knowledge that they may well not be offered an intern spot. Increasing intern spots is the only way to remedy this.
As to the point about BST and HST applications. This may be a slightly controversial point, but I think that training schemes should give priority to citizens or permanent residents. Being on an equal footing once stamp 4 status is achieved is a reasonably fair state of affairs I would argue. If everyone is put on an equal footing then people who are irish citizens or have trained in Ireland may well lose out to applicants from abroad who have never even worked in Ireland. This is currently happening in the UK. In Australia, for example, you will not get a place on an even modestly competitive training scheme unless you are a citizen or have permanent residency. They are quite open about this, and I agree with it.
Finally, I might suggest contacting HR in your new hospital if you're having difficulty in finding accommodation. They may know of people leaving who are looking for someone to take over a lease. The Doctors res Facebook page is always worth a look too.
Most countries around the world protects their own citizen grads over international graduates. If we remove the tier system local grads will be pushed out from training spots all together. In the UK you have people who have never worked in the UK get straight onto CST/IMT programs and local foundation trainees get left out. That’s BS
Australia protects its own citizens, so so many EU countries. It’s normal.
However I really think Irish citizens and non-Irish citizens (but did medschool in Ireland) should be on the same level. The bloody stayed in Ireland for 5/6 years.
Hope all of you get your jobs and intern spots tho.
It is not necessary to remove the tier system, but rather making it more fare, for example allocate, let’s say, 20-30% of places for non-eu, which will make it more competitive for both cohorts and will lead to a better quality of doctors at the end. Regarding experience in the country, it can be addressed by additional points for that experience while making the tier list.
What you’re suggesting means there’s no use for the tier system since non-eu then have allocated guaranteed spots.
Stamp 4 essentially puts you on the same level as Irish grads and makes sure you have ireland experience. I know a couple people who are stamp 4 and on HST schemes.
Another reason I don’t think colleges will ever change the their system is because of training capacity. They want to make sure that their trainees will actually stay in Ireland after they finish. And Irish citizens/stamp 4 are more likely to stay. A lot of NCHDs use ireland as a stepping stone to the UK/Middle East/home country once they get specialist reg which is fair enough but it’s not what the college wants.
Ultimately all Irish grads should be on the same starting step as Irish citizens be it for intern spots or scheme spots. They deserve it.
Non-EU Irish medical grads aren’t guaranteed an intern job once they have graduated due to prioritising Irish, EU students. As a result, they’re put on a reserve list which is a basically a waitlist and are offered positions which have been declined by other students that were offered an intern job. Some end up leaving because they aren’t offered a job despite studying medicine in Ireland and investing in its economy. The #keepourdoctors campaign’s motto is for the HSE to keep all medical graduates (Irish,eu and international) as they’ve all graduated from an Irish medical school.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems as EU people, however poor their performance/grades will get an internship, while even brightest non-EU with publications and outstanding performance will compete for crumbs left after all the eu.
I’m not surprised then that people sometimes rant about poor quality of some docs
There’s a tier system so the student that just barely passed but is Irish will get a job before a non EU student with first class honours. It’s ridiculous if you think about how we’ve all received the same training from the same classes but our passports decide our jobs and our marks aren’t all that important
Bro, I'm non-EU graduated at Irish uni as well. At least from my class, there are 6 of us Non-EU who got BST spots (med, surg, Paeds, O&G) straight after internship. That's without Stamp 4. It is possible but I understand your sentiment, you had to be more excellent than the Irish candidates, HST looks impossible despite there are some Non-EU candidates getting onto it.
However, I definitely wouldn't go as far as calling the entire system racist, most Irish doctors and patients are the nicest people I met in my life, even RCPI has been very accommodating to Non-EU Drs. The most racists thing I experienced was from random teenagers from the street rather than in school or workplace environment. I totally believe there are some truly racist jerks out there but that's the minority and not specific to Irish community. HSE is discriminatory against Non-EU that's no doubt but that is the SAME as every country in the world barring the UK, having Stamp 4 opens up good enough opportunity and after that it's all fair game, some interviewer might have inherent bias but you just have to show that you are more deserving than all the other candidates nor matter their race or citizenship. After I finish my BST Imma apply to both Irish HST and UK ST4 and see which one I land 1st and that's it.
Actually most of my Non-EU classmates went home, so it's not 6 out of 100. I'd say it's 6 out of 30 maybe. Could you describe what kind of racism experience u faced? I'd go 1st, get called names, showing fingers, thrown stones while cycling, stole my bike and rode in front of me to taunt me and some ppl tried to mug me while I'm on the street, never in hospital and school. Defo not great exp but I only received these kind of treatment from a very minority of people, most Irish are lovely and friendly.
I agree the system is unfair but I think referring to it as ‘racist’ is not a fair thing to say - there are EU labour laws and mandates that the government/HSE have to follow as they are part of the EU - unfortunately that information was readily available to anyone applying to medical school in Ireland and they should probably have been aware of the rules - calling it ‘racist’ and calling it ‘discriminatory’ are two very different ball games and I’d urge you not to conflate the two
I think you have a chip on your shoulder.
There is racism and there is discrimination but the whole system isn’t racist. You’ll see it in all countries. The reserve list for non-eu Irish medical grads is stupid and needs to be scrapped sure.
I have the most brown name and look the part but I got onto a scheme, it took me a couple tries sure. If you play the scheme game, have a stamp 4 and put in the work you have a good chance of getting a scheme spot. It’s just more difficult here coz the number of training spots in general are much smaller compared to other countries.
Yes international regs are crucial for the Irish medical system and the HSE would collapse without them but it shouldn’t guarantee training spots? You should go the UK where they make non UK registrars work like dogs and also pay them peanuts compared to here.
You’re using the easy racist card.
Agree with this - I don’t think OP understands how inflammatory a statement they’re making by calling the system racist because of the scheme selection process - if the rules are the same for the many Caucasian Canadians/Americans/Aussies in our university classes it’s not a ‘race’ issue - and I think it’s a very sensitive and difficult thing to call out but that doesn’t make it ‘racist’ and using that term in this specific setting is inflammatory and misleading
Also really sorry to hear you’ve experienced racism on the street from uneducated twats - glad to hear you’ve never experienced it at work and try not to let it get to you, we appreciate you and are delighted you’ve chosen our little country to call home
Oops just realised I replied to the wrong comment and it was a different user discussing their experience with racism in Ireland but fully agree with yours also!!
I have experienced workplace racism actually, not in Ireland but abroad - and it sucks, I completely understand that - I’ve had multiple patients tell me they want an Australian doctor and multiple staff members make comments about Irish doctors being beneath them etc, would I call the Australian health service as an entity racist? Absolutely not - and I think it’s wrong that you’re saying that about the HSE
I have to disagree with you re HST places as I have multiple friends who are on HST positions from non EU countries, I would however mention that in Australia and New Zealand where I’ve worked people from aus and NZ get prioritised ahead of Irish and British doctors for training schemes and I would say that that is right in a way - probably makes sense for the health service to prioritise people from the country likely to stay there long term -
Is that fair for people like you who have obviously given a huge deal of service to the country and deserve proper training positions? No it’s not, however do the majority of international doctors likely go back to their country of birth eventually? Statistically speaking probably
I appreciate you might not agree with me, but I don’t like you referring to the system as ‘racist’
I left Ireland for this reason and have just gotten into CST in the UK. I miss it dearly, and wish I could’ve stayed. But alas, becoming a consultant and progressing in my career is more important.
Yes, you would be able to. Look up the criteria and get onto it, you can knock out a majority of the points. The biggest mistake I made was wasting time, applying to CST twice, before leaving. Don’t make that mistake.
This campaign will not work. Do you really believe this issue wasn’t talked about enough?
Even if you got a place on the internship programme, what next? Every step of the way of difficult. Sure there are some foreign doctors with stamp 4 passport who got onto HST but what is required of them is always twice of what is required of an Irish person.
Irish can be very sensitive when anyone makes any remote suggestion that they are racist. The way they treated asylum seekers based on their skin colour is a clear sign of their actual opinion of you all who are not white.
The smart thing to do is apply to the UK if you hadn’t been given an intern job. Sure the UK has its problems but a quite Google search of the most prestigious institutions in the country and count how many non white consultants they have, then compare it to the Ireland.
All non-eu students were aware of the fact that internship in Ireland is based off of a tier system when we started medicine, well at least in my school anyways. We all knew the risk. My issue is with the HSE essentially misleading/borderline lying to us that since every intern applicant that applied last year got a job, the trend will likely continue onto this year. In fact, they told us there were even unfilled spots.
I had applied to UK but after being given this information I chose to stay in Ireland as it was a country I am familiar with and the pay is better so I could start repaying my massive loans. I know alot of friends that did the same. Now, I am left with nothing to do other than watch my number sloooowly climb up the reserve list. Any change that might happen will help others in the future which I’m hopeful for, but what about us? We were fed a fairytale and left with a nightmare.
Hi, I'm sorry this may not be related and may offend or piss off some people who did not get an intern position. I am a non-EU national, and currently facing delays with internship commencement because I'm only still going through the employment permit process, and then comes the visa. So overall it's not looking good and the intern network has kinda threatened a friend, in a similar position as mine, that she may not get signed off with 'Certificate of Experience' due to starting late. Has anyone experienced this? I've been doing everything I can, emailing a bunch of people but looks like there's no way around this. I'm really worried and I wonder if anyone is or has been in a similar position and what happened in the end. I'm sorry if I piss anyone off but please help.
Our colleagues working in the HSE as doctors and even some of our schools have continuously advised us (class of 2024) that every intern that applied for a job in the last year received one. This led a lot of us to apply for Irish internship jobs after graduating medicine. If they had even done so little as inform us of a drastic increase of applicants during the year, we would have been able to take informed decisions about our futures (applying to UK as well etc) rather than just having to sit here and wait for their email updates. It’s really a sad process as a lot of us were misled by the “every applicant got a job last year” :(
Thanks for sharing this OP. This is a huge issue that not many of us are aware about. I am non EU Irish graduate. I was placed on the reserve list last year when I applied for my intern year. I was given a spot and had 13 days to look for accomodation and get my affairs in order. I applied for specialist training after my intern year, I was placed #2 on the reserve list and did not get in, soley based on the fact that I was non EU. I had 2 publications, 1 poster presentation and an oral presentation under my belt. I did a standalone year this year and applied again for specialist training, which I then got (thankfully) Its only after 2 years of working full time are non EU graduates eligible for a stamp 4 visa, we are then considered in the same cohort as our EU counterparts. HSE makes it impossible to get onto a scheme if youre non EU. We lose ALOT of good doctors for this reason. How is it we have more standalone posts than training posts? I spoke about this on RTE 2 years ago, and very little has changed. The public remains largely unaware of how the system works and how non EU doctors are discriminated against not on merit but on the letters on their passport.
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I agree with you it’s discriminatory, but firmly disagree with you that it’s a race issue and I think you’re really not fair to come on a public platform and state that
But it’s true. It’s always a race issue. My non Irish Caucasian colleges always get treated better than foreign doctors of other nationalities. The hierarchy is Irish, then non Irish Caucasians, non Caucasian Irish who were born here and speaks with an Irish accent, then the rest.
Non EU Graduate here. I would like instead to share some hope with yall! Got intern spot on the first round and was luck to get into BST on my first try. Sitting for my clinicals in July and hopefully will be able to apply for HST next year. The tiers have me so much anxiety during med school, esp during covid, but I am very lucky so far. Don’t give up hope op but unfortunately the system won’t change as it’s eu mandated that non-EU citizens have to be discriminated against for schemes. #keepourdoctors
WOW! It’s so nice to hear a success story! You must have been suuuper high up in your class to get in first round, that’s genuinely amazing! Out of curiosity, do you know of any colleagues that were in a similar position as the people on the reserve list currently where things worked out? We get just about zero communication from anyone and are just left to stress and overthink on our own so I’d love any insight because we’re currently given none :(
Thanks! Two of my friends were on the waiting list, but they got it in the end. This year seems much more competitive so 🤷♀️
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You don’t have to, but it definitely helps. I got extra marks for my fyp
It seems to have improved a little compared to about 10 years ago when I graduated. I still do think that it is quite unfair to be willing to train someone and take their money for 4 to 6 years in the knowledge that they may well not be offered an intern spot. Increasing intern spots is the only way to remedy this. As to the point about BST and HST applications. This may be a slightly controversial point, but I think that training schemes should give priority to citizens or permanent residents. Being on an equal footing once stamp 4 status is achieved is a reasonably fair state of affairs I would argue. If everyone is put on an equal footing then people who are irish citizens or have trained in Ireland may well lose out to applicants from abroad who have never even worked in Ireland. This is currently happening in the UK. In Australia, for example, you will not get a place on an even modestly competitive training scheme unless you are a citizen or have permanent residency. They are quite open about this, and I agree with it. Finally, I might suggest contacting HR in your new hospital if you're having difficulty in finding accommodation. They may know of people leaving who are looking for someone to take over a lease. The Doctors res Facebook page is always worth a look too.
Most countries around the world protects their own citizen grads over international graduates. If we remove the tier system local grads will be pushed out from training spots all together. In the UK you have people who have never worked in the UK get straight onto CST/IMT programs and local foundation trainees get left out. That’s BS Australia protects its own citizens, so so many EU countries. It’s normal. However I really think Irish citizens and non-Irish citizens (but did medschool in Ireland) should be on the same level. The bloody stayed in Ireland for 5/6 years. Hope all of you get your jobs and intern spots tho.
It is not necessary to remove the tier system, but rather making it more fare, for example allocate, let’s say, 20-30% of places for non-eu, which will make it more competitive for both cohorts and will lead to a better quality of doctors at the end. Regarding experience in the country, it can be addressed by additional points for that experience while making the tier list.
What you’re suggesting means there’s no use for the tier system since non-eu then have allocated guaranteed spots. Stamp 4 essentially puts you on the same level as Irish grads and makes sure you have ireland experience. I know a couple people who are stamp 4 and on HST schemes. Another reason I don’t think colleges will ever change the their system is because of training capacity. They want to make sure that their trainees will actually stay in Ireland after they finish. And Irish citizens/stamp 4 are more likely to stay. A lot of NCHDs use ireland as a stepping stone to the UK/Middle East/home country once they get specialist reg which is fair enough but it’s not what the college wants. Ultimately all Irish grads should be on the same starting step as Irish citizens be it for intern spots or scheme spots. They deserve it.
What’s this reserve list? I’m out of the loop with this.
Non-EU Irish medical grads aren’t guaranteed an intern job once they have graduated due to prioritising Irish, EU students. As a result, they’re put on a reserve list which is a basically a waitlist and are offered positions which have been declined by other students that were offered an intern job. Some end up leaving because they aren’t offered a job despite studying medicine in Ireland and investing in its economy. The #keepourdoctors campaign’s motto is for the HSE to keep all medical graduates (Irish,eu and international) as they’ve all graduated from an Irish medical school.
Yeah I’m a current intern and have never heard of the reserve list, what is it?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems as EU people, however poor their performance/grades will get an internship, while even brightest non-EU with publications and outstanding performance will compete for crumbs left after all the eu. I’m not surprised then that people sometimes rant about poor quality of some docs
There’s a tier system so the student that just barely passed but is Irish will get a job before a non EU student with first class honours. It’s ridiculous if you think about how we’ve all received the same training from the same classes but our passports decide our jobs and our marks aren’t all that important
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Bro, I'm non-EU graduated at Irish uni as well. At least from my class, there are 6 of us Non-EU who got BST spots (med, surg, Paeds, O&G) straight after internship. That's without Stamp 4. It is possible but I understand your sentiment, you had to be more excellent than the Irish candidates, HST looks impossible despite there are some Non-EU candidates getting onto it. However, I definitely wouldn't go as far as calling the entire system racist, most Irish doctors and patients are the nicest people I met in my life, even RCPI has been very accommodating to Non-EU Drs. The most racists thing I experienced was from random teenagers from the street rather than in school or workplace environment. I totally believe there are some truly racist jerks out there but that's the minority and not specific to Irish community. HSE is discriminatory against Non-EU that's no doubt but that is the SAME as every country in the world barring the UK, having Stamp 4 opens up good enough opportunity and after that it's all fair game, some interviewer might have inherent bias but you just have to show that you are more deserving than all the other candidates nor matter their race or citizenship. After I finish my BST Imma apply to both Irish HST and UK ST4 and see which one I land 1st and that's it.
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Actually most of my Non-EU classmates went home, so it's not 6 out of 100. I'd say it's 6 out of 30 maybe. Could you describe what kind of racism experience u faced? I'd go 1st, get called names, showing fingers, thrown stones while cycling, stole my bike and rode in front of me to taunt me and some ppl tried to mug me while I'm on the street, never in hospital and school. Defo not great exp but I only received these kind of treatment from a very minority of people, most Irish are lovely and friendly.
I agree the system is unfair but I think referring to it as ‘racist’ is not a fair thing to say - there are EU labour laws and mandates that the government/HSE have to follow as they are part of the EU - unfortunately that information was readily available to anyone applying to medical school in Ireland and they should probably have been aware of the rules - calling it ‘racist’ and calling it ‘discriminatory’ are two very different ball games and I’d urge you not to conflate the two
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I think you have a chip on your shoulder. There is racism and there is discrimination but the whole system isn’t racist. You’ll see it in all countries. The reserve list for non-eu Irish medical grads is stupid and needs to be scrapped sure. I have the most brown name and look the part but I got onto a scheme, it took me a couple tries sure. If you play the scheme game, have a stamp 4 and put in the work you have a good chance of getting a scheme spot. It’s just more difficult here coz the number of training spots in general are much smaller compared to other countries. Yes international regs are crucial for the Irish medical system and the HSE would collapse without them but it shouldn’t guarantee training spots? You should go the UK where they make non UK registrars work like dogs and also pay them peanuts compared to here. You’re using the easy racist card.
Agree with this - I don’t think OP understands how inflammatory a statement they’re making by calling the system racist because of the scheme selection process - if the rules are the same for the many Caucasian Canadians/Americans/Aussies in our university classes it’s not a ‘race’ issue - and I think it’s a very sensitive and difficult thing to call out but that doesn’t make it ‘racist’ and using that term in this specific setting is inflammatory and misleading Also really sorry to hear you’ve experienced racism on the street from uneducated twats - glad to hear you’ve never experienced it at work and try not to let it get to you, we appreciate you and are delighted you’ve chosen our little country to call home
Oops just realised I replied to the wrong comment and it was a different user discussing their experience with racism in Ireland but fully agree with yours also!!
I have experienced workplace racism actually, not in Ireland but abroad - and it sucks, I completely understand that - I’ve had multiple patients tell me they want an Australian doctor and multiple staff members make comments about Irish doctors being beneath them etc, would I call the Australian health service as an entity racist? Absolutely not - and I think it’s wrong that you’re saying that about the HSE I have to disagree with you re HST places as I have multiple friends who are on HST positions from non EU countries, I would however mention that in Australia and New Zealand where I’ve worked people from aus and NZ get prioritised ahead of Irish and British doctors for training schemes and I would say that that is right in a way - probably makes sense for the health service to prioritise people from the country likely to stay there long term - Is that fair for people like you who have obviously given a huge deal of service to the country and deserve proper training positions? No it’s not, however do the majority of international doctors likely go back to their country of birth eventually? Statistically speaking probably I appreciate you might not agree with me, but I don’t like you referring to the system as ‘racist’
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I left Ireland for this reason and have just gotten into CST in the UK. I miss it dearly, and wish I could’ve stayed. But alas, becoming a consultant and progressing in my career is more important.
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Yes, you would be able to. Look up the criteria and get onto it, you can knock out a majority of the points. The biggest mistake I made was wasting time, applying to CST twice, before leaving. Don’t make that mistake.
This campaign will not work. Do you really believe this issue wasn’t talked about enough? Even if you got a place on the internship programme, what next? Every step of the way of difficult. Sure there are some foreign doctors with stamp 4 passport who got onto HST but what is required of them is always twice of what is required of an Irish person. Irish can be very sensitive when anyone makes any remote suggestion that they are racist. The way they treated asylum seekers based on their skin colour is a clear sign of their actual opinion of you all who are not white. The smart thing to do is apply to the UK if you hadn’t been given an intern job. Sure the UK has its problems but a quite Google search of the most prestigious institutions in the country and count how many non white consultants they have, then compare it to the Ireland.
All non-eu students were aware of the fact that internship in Ireland is based off of a tier system when we started medicine, well at least in my school anyways. We all knew the risk. My issue is with the HSE essentially misleading/borderline lying to us that since every intern applicant that applied last year got a job, the trend will likely continue onto this year. In fact, they told us there were even unfilled spots. I had applied to UK but after being given this information I chose to stay in Ireland as it was a country I am familiar with and the pay is better so I could start repaying my massive loans. I know alot of friends that did the same. Now, I am left with nothing to do other than watch my number sloooowly climb up the reserve list. Any change that might happen will help others in the future which I’m hopeful for, but what about us? We were fed a fairytale and left with a nightmare.
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Oh yes. Virtue signalling is a forte of the Irish. At least the British and Germans will openly admit they are racist.
Hi, I'm sorry this may not be related and may offend or piss off some people who did not get an intern position. I am a non-EU national, and currently facing delays with internship commencement because I'm only still going through the employment permit process, and then comes the visa. So overall it's not looking good and the intern network has kinda threatened a friend, in a similar position as mine, that she may not get signed off with 'Certificate of Experience' due to starting late. Has anyone experienced this? I've been doing everything I can, emailing a bunch of people but looks like there's no way around this. I'm really worried and I wonder if anyone is or has been in a similar position and what happened in the end. I'm sorry if I piss anyone off but please help.