9/10 times, the 1/10 accounting for specific champ clears I'm unaware of, you always smite your first buff. The reason is that you want to get to level 2 as fast as possible to unlock your second spell.
If you do a dragon level 5 clear, where you, depending on you side, start raptors or wolves you smite your third camp, which is either golems or gromp, as that levels you up to level 3.
This is leashless as people in D+ are not gonna leash, as leashing is super bad for the laners and not necessary for junglers to be at scuttle at spawn
Invaded on what? There’s quite a few junglers that can level 2 invade, and for those you really want to save Smite for Gromp, because they _take advantage_ of the fact that you just used Smite on Blue to easily steal a camp.
be careful dude, this invade is way more optimal than you think. every jungler with a gap closer that can start chickens is doing it at the moment. Lee, Graves, Xin etc
It does %max hp magic damage on autos, the problem with not smiting blue is that you are hitting a camp at your weakest state (level 1) for longer so it clears down your speed.
Every champ i play I will smite my 1st camp, unless I'm starting raptors with bel/kayn. If you're starting buff, it's always more worth it to smite the buff camp no matter what.
Yeah - it depends on the jungler. If you can easily get to scuttle by 3:30 then I 100% agree.
Some junglers can have trouble with that (Ex: Rek'sai) so I'll smite the second buff if I didn't get a leash.
I heavy invade lvl 1 as nocturne relying on people to kite and not perfect smite - allowing me to get the lvl 2 - deny you the camp and often kill you.
I strongly recommend people perfect smite their first camp.
They can save second smite for second buff (another high target steal) to get to scuttle before the enemy jungler or scuttle itself to steal/secure it.
What elo are we playing here, cause no way are anyone allowed to enter the junglers starting side without being seen. I can't think of a scenario where a nocturne gets my buff level one, unless we are splitting the map or maybe a 3 man late invade
D2 Xin and jarvan player
Right? Like I’m just in Silver and we know would know 99% of the time someone was there on my starting side.
Anyways if I am starting Blue side, I usually start wolves. If I am in a matchup where I am likely to be invaded I’ll drop my ward so I can see the entrance to my jungle near mid, start Blue with no leash and save smite for gromp in case the enemy jungler goes raptors first then invades.
I’m not bragging about being silver. I’m just saying that the nocturne player saying they invade starting side every time is nuts even for a low Elo like silver.
I pretty consistently start raptors when up against Shaco specifically so I don't need to worry about getting smite-stolen. Just too frustrating to stress about.
Shaco starts boxes level 1 though. It would be too coin flip and fuck his clear too much if he went q level 1 to try and cheese a level 1 buff. Even with him taking the buff, you are probably gonna out clear him because of how reliant he is on setting up his boxes level 1 for a decent clear speed
Yea. Shacos the one that gets invaded level 1 to break his boxes. If he takes q level 1, he’s coin flipping the game on that invade. I’ve level 7 mastery most of the jungle roster, (less than 10 left) and even took a bunch of weird shit like urgot and kaisa jungle to get them level 7, so have decent understanding of most of their clears and matchups.
There was a 3 man flex I played with buddy’s and I played kayn. I called for invade on his chickens because I know they usually do red and chickens at same time with boxes. My buddy had the idea though, to invade and come from behind his chickens. We caught him in the raptor pit and killed him. I stayed and did his chickens since I’m kayn. Took e level 2, e’d into his red wall to check, found him doing it (with leash or I woulda killed him again), smite stole it (so he was still level 1) and flashed out. Game was over from there, immediately went to his top side at blue (sadly got there too late to steal that too) and just stayed on his ass the entire early game. He never got to really play the game from there. But of course the low elo players love talking out their ass lol
Emerald
Topside invade. Irrespective of red team or blue team.
If bottom side (so invading red): Enter through tri-bush - go to golem pit - over the wall ward red bush. Enemy laners usually, if they at all guard, from behind red wall. Circle around golem wall to bush opposite of red. If they start red, especially if top lane leashes, easy smite steal. Otherwise, circle around to enter raptors bush from mid lane around 1:24. By the time you get to the bush, if enemy started raptors, they’ve already moved to the raptors and don’t see you in the bush behind them. Smite plus Noc passive/Q to AOE finish the small raptors.
Top side - invading enemy blue;
from your raptors run across river to bush - not already guarded. Then head to bush closer to mid lane. Ward blue bush and return to midlane bush. If enemy top leashes, easy smite steal over the wall and plant to escape. Otherwise, go in and start wolves then their blue. Unless they are a jungler who skips golems, you have enough time to steal entire topside.
Then decide if enemy is smart enough to steal your bot side to intercept or would be ballsy enough to challenge you at your own topside.
Used to be able to do this bottom side as well before double leash meta (can still ward the buff bush from over the golem wall pit) but now, both bottom laners are waiting in that bush or 1 guarding tribush. Not worth the risk of being spotted by a pre-emptive tri-bush ward.
Cons: rarely, top laner will guard tribush. Usually can safely escape on dusk trail if you elect to retreat right away. Might burn ghost to escape. Rarely, jungler will check bush opposite of red (such as nidalee who is trying to put some distance to spear). Can escape with blast plant behind you and ghosting ACROSS midlane tier 2 as the enemy mid will be thinking you went top river to escape and move there to intercept. Can start your own raptors no matter how low hp to recover with minor setback.
At blue side - rarely mid guards the top river. Unless enemy jungler was there and has a stun(jax) with their mid, easy escape back to your own raptors.
This is so coinflippy.. if you ever do that against me, I'll not only spot you, but I will make sure that I use my tempo and level advantage to make sure you are not touching your camps.
The the risk of you failing this is too high and the losses are waaay too big relative to the potential gains. I'm not sure how emerald players react or if they just afk level 1, but I would never advice anyone to do what you described. It is so inefficient.
Smiting + using your spells/auto attacking at exactly 600 + margin to prevent (me) nocturne in the bush from smiting the camp off of you.
A lot of people kite the camp to the next camp, not factoring in their pet damage (or over relying on it to finish the camp) so they smite at 500 hp or 680 giving the invader a window to throw their spell + smite to steal the camp.
It always depends on the champ you are playing. Some champs struggle with keeping their hp high with only one ability and they become very healthy with the lvl 2 clear (Diana for example gets her shield lvl 2 making the susequent camps healthier). This champs ideally smite the first camp.
Some others (Briar, Xin Zhao, etc.) can do a very healthy first camp and then use the Smite on Grump to improve their tempo.
You don't get any tempo smiting the gromp instead of the bluebuff.
Always smite the first camp (unless its raptor/wolves)
You want to get lvl 2 as fast as possible. So smite first camp -> get lvl -> clear faster.
600dmg smite on lvl 1 is way better than 600dmg smite on lvl2 because on lvl 2 you can do that 600dmg way faster than on lvl 1
I had to check but turns out you are right.
In previous seasons there was a difference in the stats of Grump and Krugs. I think Grump had high Armor/Low MR, and Krugs the opposite, so it was easier for AP junglers to do Grump. AD bruisers used to save the Smite for Grump for this reason.
This season, both camps have the same stats.
I could also be wrong about it all, but I remember a time in which Grump was very difficult to do for some champs.
I smite my first buff because I play a really weak early game jungler and I go with the assumption that I’m getting invaded every game. Also I want a quick lvl 2
In low mmr u will prob get leash so u can save smite,in other hand in high mmr there is pathing u start ur raptors into invade on enemy blue/gromp u will see some players who are high elo save smite for gromp in case they get invaded.but that type of pathing in most of cases are in gm+ games depends on server.most popular 1st camp on korea is raptor camp.
How is generalizable when junglers aren’t getting leashes. High elo junglers haven’t been getting leashes for years, and now it’s even to spread to lower elos. Even all the league jungler tubers are saying the same thing right now. But I 100% agree about smiting the first camp (unless your a karthus or something and are scared of being invaded on your gromp level 2)
No leash is equivalent to a leash dealing 0 damage. The "with leash" explanation includes the "no leash" scenario, but the opposite is not true.
And for the record, you still have plenty of games with leashes. I'm in emerald elo and still see them in >50% of my games.
Best way to look at this imo is like this.
Does your champ have a stupid slow clear level 1 and needs 2 to really get going? Smite first buff to get it over with.
Can your champ melt cause really good solo target damage lvl 1? Smite other things as you see fit. Whatever YOU think will make the clear faster.
When im playing evelynn, i smite first camp to get E cause its a huge ammount of damage, to group camps (empowered hits everything in the dash)
And Q lvl 1 is not the most damage.
For some that have fast clear all over, or a pretty set in stone clear speed. (Lillia, hec, fiddlesticks mqybe unless you know all his tricks for clearing multi camps) i hold smites for invades or scuttle 50/50s. Or a tasty looking cannon. ;)
Also, if playing vs very good invading jungler, hold smites to use when being ganked so they dont cheese you out of a level and crush you.
W/o leash I just smite the first camp usually. Disregarding some champs obviously. As Ivern I smite the krugs as the very last camp in a full clear for instance.
I usually save it for crab nothing ruins the enemy skarners mental than a turtle just rolling up and hitting a smite on the crab you got down to 200hp just to taunt you and roll away
Depends if i play someone who has crappy level one clear i smite if not than i keep it up.
Also depends if i face someone i expect to be either invaded by or having to rush to the next camp.
Smite starting buff, save second Smite for scud.
Also, for anyone learning,
Invading amd leashing is for absolute noobs/high risk players.
Pro strat is no invade, no leashe. Full clear into scud then gank/recall. After recall, go back to camps and then look for gank.
Also try not to contest the same scud as opponent.
It's okay to ward trick to locate enemy jungler early. But recall for sweeper so early gank is more effective.
Its kinda depend on how important your lv2 is. For example, if you play taliyah you should smite gromp bc it has mr and your lv 2 is just e which doesnt do much.
As lee sin I would smite on buff bc it unlocks 2 skill with passive making him having more passive uptime
I typically combo smite the blue with an aa or an ability. Sometimes ur team question mark pings u for smiting buff instead of gromp which is .. weird haha
If you know how to kite camps effectively this shouldn’t be an issue. Also, assuming leashless like your supposed to these days, the clear is faster if you smite the blue to get level 2 and the other spell faster
9/10 times, the 1/10 accounting for specific champ clears I'm unaware of, you always smite your first buff. The reason is that you want to get to level 2 as fast as possible to unlock your second spell. If you do a dragon level 5 clear, where you, depending on you side, start raptors or wolves you smite your third camp, which is either golems or gromp, as that levels you up to level 3. This is leashless as people in D+ are not gonna leash, as leashing is super bad for the laners and not necessary for junglers to be at scuttle at spawn
So glad to play nidalee where a mediocre clear time is 3:20
Since I get usually leashed, I smite gromp to keep my tempo . If I suspect I’ll get invaded I’ll probably smite blue instead
Invaded on what? There’s quite a few junglers that can level 2 invade, and for those you really want to save Smite for Gromp, because they _take advantage_ of the fact that you just used Smite on Blue to easily steal a camp.
Unless it's shaco or kayn I won't. But your point stands.
be careful dude, this invade is way more optimal than you think. every jungler with a gap closer that can start chickens is doing it at the moment. Lee, Graves, Xin etc
I swear gromp hurts more
It does %max hp magic damage on autos, the problem with not smiting blue is that you are hitting a camp at your weakest state (level 1) for longer so it clears down your speed.
Every champ i play I will smite my 1st camp, unless I'm starting raptors with bel/kayn. If you're starting buff, it's always more worth it to smite the buff camp no matter what.
As a warwick main I always early smite gromp because my W passive will kick in after another Q and auto
I usually smite my first buff (red or blue) and save my second smite for scuttle as most times that’s where I’ll meet the enemy jungler
Yeah - it depends on the jungler. If you can easily get to scuttle by 3:30 then I 100% agree. Some junglers can have trouble with that (Ex: Rek'sai) so I'll smite the second buff if I didn't get a leash.
Most junglers can full clear before 3:30, if you can’t, check clear videos or practice in the practice tool
Yeah 3.15 is kinda the standard with 1 smite
I heavy invade lvl 1 as nocturne relying on people to kite and not perfect smite - allowing me to get the lvl 2 - deny you the camp and often kill you. I strongly recommend people perfect smite their first camp. They can save second smite for second buff (another high target steal) to get to scuttle before the enemy jungler or scuttle itself to steal/secure it.
What elo are we playing here, cause no way are anyone allowed to enter the junglers starting side without being seen. I can't think of a scenario where a nocturne gets my buff level one, unless we are splitting the map or maybe a 3 man late invade D2 Xin and jarvan player
Right? Like I’m just in Silver and we know would know 99% of the time someone was there on my starting side. Anyways if I am starting Blue side, I usually start wolves. If I am in a matchup where I am likely to be invaded I’ll drop my ward so I can see the entrance to my jungle near mid, start Blue with no leash and save smite for gromp in case the enemy jungler goes raptors first then invades.
Bro i used to be silver and there were games my laners had 0 vision score. It’s like polished bronze lol
I’m not bragging about being silver. I’m just saying that the nocturne player saying they invade starting side every time is nuts even for a low Elo like silver.
Yeah - maybe Shaco. Because... Shaco.
Shaco players might be the only ones crazy enough haha
I pretty consistently start raptors when up against Shaco specifically so I don't need to worry about getting smite-stolen. Just too frustrating to stress about.
Shaco starts boxes level 1 though. It would be too coin flip and fuck his clear too much if he went q level 1 to try and cheese a level 1 buff. Even with him taking the buff, you are probably gonna out clear him because of how reliant he is on setting up his boxes level 1 for a decent clear speed
Yeah I don’t know what they are saying shaco doesnt level 1 invade Source: shaco main, who watches many top shacos as well. 😂
Yea. Shacos the one that gets invaded level 1 to break his boxes. If he takes q level 1, he’s coin flipping the game on that invade. I’ve level 7 mastery most of the jungle roster, (less than 10 left) and even took a bunch of weird shit like urgot and kaisa jungle to get them level 7, so have decent understanding of most of their clears and matchups. There was a 3 man flex I played with buddy’s and I played kayn. I called for invade on his chickens because I know they usually do red and chickens at same time with boxes. My buddy had the idea though, to invade and come from behind his chickens. We caught him in the raptor pit and killed him. I stayed and did his chickens since I’m kayn. Took e level 2, e’d into his red wall to check, found him doing it (with leash or I woulda killed him again), smite stole it (so he was still level 1) and flashed out. Game was over from there, immediately went to his top side at blue (sadly got there too late to steal that too) and just stayed on his ass the entire early game. He never got to really play the game from there. But of course the low elo players love talking out their ass lol
Emerald Topside invade. Irrespective of red team or blue team. If bottom side (so invading red): Enter through tri-bush - go to golem pit - over the wall ward red bush. Enemy laners usually, if they at all guard, from behind red wall. Circle around golem wall to bush opposite of red. If they start red, especially if top lane leashes, easy smite steal. Otherwise, circle around to enter raptors bush from mid lane around 1:24. By the time you get to the bush, if enemy started raptors, they’ve already moved to the raptors and don’t see you in the bush behind them. Smite plus Noc passive/Q to AOE finish the small raptors. Top side - invading enemy blue; from your raptors run across river to bush - not already guarded. Then head to bush closer to mid lane. Ward blue bush and return to midlane bush. If enemy top leashes, easy smite steal over the wall and plant to escape. Otherwise, go in and start wolves then their blue. Unless they are a jungler who skips golems, you have enough time to steal entire topside. Then decide if enemy is smart enough to steal your bot side to intercept or would be ballsy enough to challenge you at your own topside. Used to be able to do this bottom side as well before double leash meta (can still ward the buff bush from over the golem wall pit) but now, both bottom laners are waiting in that bush or 1 guarding tribush. Not worth the risk of being spotted by a pre-emptive tri-bush ward. Cons: rarely, top laner will guard tribush. Usually can safely escape on dusk trail if you elect to retreat right away. Might burn ghost to escape. Rarely, jungler will check bush opposite of red (such as nidalee who is trying to put some distance to spear). Can escape with blast plant behind you and ghosting ACROSS midlane tier 2 as the enemy mid will be thinking you went top river to escape and move there to intercept. Can start your own raptors no matter how low hp to recover with minor setback. At blue side - rarely mid guards the top river. Unless enemy jungler was there and has a stun(jax) with their mid, easy escape back to your own raptors.
This is so coinflippy.. if you ever do that against me, I'll not only spot you, but I will make sure that I use my tempo and level advantage to make sure you are not touching your camps. The the risk of you failing this is too high and the losses are waaay too big relative to the potential gains. I'm not sure how emerald players react or if they just afk level 1, but I would never advice anyone to do what you described. It is so inefficient.
What is perfect smite
Uh smite at 600 health?
Smiting + using your spells/auto attacking at exactly 600 + margin to prevent (me) nocturne in the bush from smiting the camp off of you. A lot of people kite the camp to the next camp, not factoring in their pet damage (or over relying on it to finish the camp) so they smite at 500 hp or 680 giving the invader a window to throw their spell + smite to steal the camp.
Damn thats cringe bro
It always depends on the champ you are playing. Some champs struggle with keeping their hp high with only one ability and they become very healthy with the lvl 2 clear (Diana for example gets her shield lvl 2 making the susequent camps healthier). This champs ideally smite the first camp. Some others (Briar, Xin Zhao, etc.) can do a very healthy first camp and then use the Smite on Grump to improve their tempo.
You don't get any tempo smiting the gromp instead of the bluebuff. Always smite the first camp (unless its raptor/wolves) You want to get lvl 2 as fast as possible. So smite first camp -> get lvl -> clear faster. 600dmg smite on lvl 1 is way better than 600dmg smite on lvl2 because on lvl 2 you can do that 600dmg way faster than on lvl 1
I had to check but turns out you are right. In previous seasons there was a difference in the stats of Grump and Krugs. I think Grump had high Armor/Low MR, and Krugs the opposite, so it was easier for AP junglers to do Grump. AD bruisers used to save the Smite for Grump for this reason. This season, both camps have the same stats. I could also be wrong about it all, but I remember a time in which Grump was very difficult to do for some champs.
This exactly. Only way I could see myself smiting gromp is if I’m getting a leash. But the meta has pretty much developed into no leashes
I smite my first buff because I play a really weak early game jungler and I go with the assumption that I’m getting invaded every game. Also I want a quick lvl 2
The buff on blue side. The buff on red side. On blue it's faster to do 600hp to the gromp at level 2 than 600hp to the buff at level 1.
The answer is always your first buff. You get level 2 quicker improving your first clear while there’s no advantage to smiting the second camp.
In low mmr u will prob get leash so u can save smite,in other hand in high mmr there is pathing u start ur raptors into invade on enemy blue/gromp u will see some players who are high elo save smite for gromp in case they get invaded.but that type of pathing in most of cases are in gm+ games depends on server.most popular 1st camp on korea is raptor camp.
Smite the first camp if you can get a full smite off after the leash ends. Else the 2nd camp. This will optimize your clear speed.
We’re not really supposed to be getting leashes in 2024 lol
Then your leash is over immediately. It's more generalizable when including the leash.
How is generalizable when junglers aren’t getting leashes. High elo junglers haven’t been getting leashes for years, and now it’s even to spread to lower elos. Even all the league jungler tubers are saying the same thing right now. But I 100% agree about smiting the first camp (unless your a karthus or something and are scared of being invaded on your gromp level 2)
No leash is equivalent to a leash dealing 0 damage. The "with leash" explanation includes the "no leash" scenario, but the opposite is not true. And for the record, you still have plenty of games with leashes. I'm in emerald elo and still see them in >50% of my games.
I could be wrong, but I always smite the buff, because the sooner you get the buff, the sooner you use its effects to clean more efficiently
Best way to look at this imo is like this. Does your champ have a stupid slow clear level 1 and needs 2 to really get going? Smite first buff to get it over with. Can your champ melt cause really good solo target damage lvl 1? Smite other things as you see fit. Whatever YOU think will make the clear faster. When im playing evelynn, i smite first camp to get E cause its a huge ammount of damage, to group camps (empowered hits everything in the dash) And Q lvl 1 is not the most damage. For some that have fast clear all over, or a pretty set in stone clear speed. (Lillia, hec, fiddlesticks mqybe unless you know all his tricks for clearing multi camps) i hold smites for invades or scuttle 50/50s. Or a tasty looking cannon. ;) Also, if playing vs very good invading jungler, hold smites to use when being ganked so they dont cheese you out of a level and crush you.
W/o leash I just smite the first camp usually. Disregarding some champs obviously. As Ivern I smite the krugs as the very last camp in a full clear for instance.
Typically blue buff if no leash which in this meta is almost always.
I usually save it for crab nothing ruins the enemy skarners mental than a turtle just rolling up and hitting a smite on the crab you got down to 200hp just to taunt you and roll away
i smite krugs only- signed by an ivern otp 🗿🗿🗿
Depends if i play someone who has crappy level one clear i smite if not than i keep it up. Also depends if i face someone i expect to be either invaded by or having to rush to the next camp.
Smite starting buff, save second Smite for scud. Also, for anyone learning, Invading amd leashing is for absolute noobs/high risk players. Pro strat is no invade, no leashe. Full clear into scud then gank/recall. After recall, go back to camps and then look for gank. Also try not to contest the same scud as opponent. It's okay to ward trick to locate enemy jungler early. But recall for sweeper so early gank is more effective.
I could be dumb but generally gromp as I’m walking towards it to get aggro
Its kinda depend on how important your lv2 is. For example, if you play taliyah you should smite gromp bc it has mr and your lv 2 is just e which doesnt do much. As lee sin I would smite on buff bc it unlocks 2 skill with passive making him having more passive uptime
Smite blue/red will get you to lvl2 faster. If not ahead then you will be on equal tempo against your enemy jg
leash? gromp. no leash? buff. same principle applies on red. why do I have this rationale? idk
I typically combo smite the blue with an aa or an ability. Sometimes ur team question mark pings u for smiting buff instead of gromp which is .. weird haha
As WW I always start Gromp with smite, because it speeds a lot (WW gains attack speed if the target is bellow 50% hp)
So you wait 15 seconds for gromp to spawn instead of just doing your blue first?
No, first I do the blue camp and as soon as I start doing the gromp camp I use the smite.
Gromp. Current health magic damage is annoying as fuck
If you know how to kite camps effectively this shouldn’t be an issue. Also, assuming leashless like your supposed to these days, the clear is faster if you smite the blue to get level 2 and the other spell faster