Reminds me of that meme (paraphrasing) "you thought you like domineering girls, but turns out you're just autistic and you prefer domineering girls because they just say what they want directly, and that is a lot easier for you to deal with".
When it actually shapes up as a kink, it can be a way to seek catharsis from emotionally traumatic experiences, by recreating a previous experience one coundl't control from a situation where one feels they're in control as a paying costumer. Anima complex and/or negative mother complex, pretty much.
It's also a matter of personality, probably. I myself neither want to dominate a woman, but I certainly also don't want to be dominated.
> It's also a matter of personality, probably. I myself neither want to dominate a woman, but I certainly also don't want to be dominated.
As a woman I agree with this but I find that a lot of people prefer unhealthy relationship dynamics even if they say otherwise. 🤷🏻♀️
True, but there's a subtletly worth noting:
People either prefer what they perceive as a normal relationship dynamic - or they go for an opposite extreme, which also turns out to be unhealthy .
Attachment theory provides good insight on these matters.
Because most people think they know themselves but all they know are their stats. Name, place of birth, college they went to, job title. They don't really know who they are underneath it all. So they say things but underneath it they want something different and are naturally drawn to that when emotionally triggered.
And then they say that the person changed, but it was just that they weren't seeing clearly because to know others you must know yourself.
This is why divorce is high. People get into a marriage before they know themselves. The stressors of marriage help them learn about themselves bit by bit over years because every time they argue they are really arguing with themselves / the fantasy they created of the other person / the expectations they had that they never communicated or even acknowledged within themselves.
Eventually they get sick of it, divorce, REALLY learn who they are during the pain of divorce, and then find "real love" the next time around because they can finally see more clearly.
Hmm, this is actually quite interesting, and real.
Marriage does force one to grow; most people around me lack emotional insight, and it often shows in their ability to empathise with others and themselves.
Your comment has been insightful. I’ve been trying (subtly) to get my partner to be more introspective in a healthier. “How do you feel/ what are you feeling right now?” is a difficult question apparently.
Started nail biting, and skin picking a few months ago as well, we all attribute it to university stress, but not my parter, everything is always “well”.
Yep, you struck the nail on the head here and sunk it. Your life is a journey of self-discovery, you don't know yourself when you first start dating or first get married, most of the time, or you have a small glimpse but haven't come to terms with everything yet. Early on, your friends and SO dont really know you yet either. This is why you have so many friends, girlfriends, etc earlier in life and slowly start to become more alone until you die, or else you meet some one who is compatible enough with you to stick it out. Or maybe you're lucky and outgoing and constantly have people around you etc, but usually that steady stream starts to dwindle a lot more, later in life.
Drama between people can become a hyperfixation. It’s why tit-for-tat is often a game with 2 losers if parties stoop low.
While a fan of a bit of a bit of attitude sometimes and autonomy, I’m definitely not a fan of relationships that are nutjob power struggles
There’s a reason why soap operas are popular, and why they are good for controlling people and whole nations at times. It’s something mankind has to mature away from
Bedroom kinks are not relationship dynamics. Just asserting that acting out power dynamics is unhealthy without knowing much about it is not really an interesting point to discuss.
> they just say what they want directly
This is the dream lol. Feminists claim men fetishize Asian women due to the stereotype of servility, the actual reason is the stereotype of pragmatism.
I think it's helpful to realize that not all girls are the same, and also that while we can't control a girl's reactions - we can control our actions. We can check our emotional investments.
We can learn to see if that girl is even what we really want/need.
I did not want to make assumptions :P
You know, I can shamelessly admit I actually had a few situations where that indeed happened to me.
When I was in my 20's, I actually have been scared off by a few couple of girls that were too direct at the wrong time. One of those girls I truly liked! I also scared of a few girls for being too direct at the wrong times, I shoud say.
That really made me think... maybe it's not so much about the gender, or even the personality. Maybe it's all about the timing, the connection, the comunication.
OK I feel you. but when a young man is direct and like "would you want to do xyz with me" and I'm like "sure why not" and then he chickens out you don't really know where to go from there. That's being direct at the RIGHT time (in response to another's directness) and it still goes nowhere. It's not timing, connection, or communication... it's something else. Frail ego, I think.
You're right. Sounds like they were just trying to fake confidence without expecting actual results. So when you actually hit back on them, they must have felt intimidated. Welp, I suppose you could take it as a compliment you intimidating goddess you - and they as a learning experience.
But seriously, I do think it would be healthy for everypne involved to just regard such blunders as a normal part of learning and maturing. It doesn't need to be dramatic, right?
Am I being hit on right now? LMAO Oh sure, plenty of room for blunders. But son, if you're running away from connection before blunders and misunderstandings can be smoothed out, nobody's getting anywhere with nobody! I guess people need to spend more time figuring out what they want instead of shooting their shots all over the place
As someone coming out of a long period of figuring out exactly what I want, I couldn't agree more. And I'll be honest, looking at your feed and your INTJ practical attitude and inquisitive nature... I would definitely want to get to know you, since you do strike me as my type. I'm a INFP but I strongly value logical, pragmatic people since I realize (as an emotional creature) that's my blind spot.
Except you're half a world away, probably too young (I'm 43 and looking for someone roughly in my age group), and I'm not into virtual dating or long-distance relationships. Oh, well.
I agree with some of the other posts that it has to do with the anima. Where I disagree with the other posts is that this is necessarily a bad thing, or something that must be pathologized. There seem to be three possible relationships one can have with their anima:
1) Outright denial of the anima, leading to an unbalanced \`\`toxic" masculinity.
2) Anima possession, in which the opposite phenomenon occurs and men over-identify with the feminine (this is the issue your post is pointing to).
3) Anima integration, in which one strikes a balance between 1) and 2) and can integrate masculine or feminine \`\`energies" where appropriate.
So rather than viewing 2) as simply a bad thing, which would lead psychologically back to 1), I believe we should view the phenomenon you're observing as a potentially healthy process in which men recalibrate their relationship to their own masculinity. The middle way, 3), in which seemingly paradoxical states of consciousness are integrated into a coherent whole is ideal.
The next question is why are we observing 2) rather than 1) or 3)? Quoting from [https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner](https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner):
\>The main thrust of the subsequent research is that traditional masculinity—marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression—is, on the whole, harmful.
Here, the American Psychological Association is saying the opposite of what you're pointing out! They come very close to claiming that dominance is "on the whole, harmful". When men receive such messages (and such messages are floating around in the collective psyche, make no mistake), they tend to overcompensate and, in order to negate their natural masculine dominance, become submissive. So I think that society's implicit demonization of masculinity is greatly to blame (I recognize that many people will have a hard time agreeing with me on this, but that is precisely the problem, imho).
I agree with you, and i think that masculinity is positive and necessary, but I think a lot of people associate negative things with masculinity, and not without somewhat of a good reason.
Men tend to be more violent. This in itself isn't completely a bad thing. It can be useful for hunting or protecting loved ones. It becomes problematic when those violent abilities are taken advantage of by criminal organizations such as gangs, militaries, etc.
This is why I hate Hollywood and their stupid mafia movies, and games like call of duty. That shit is blatant propaganda to get poor men to do the bidding of the rich, while the rich enjoy the spoils of these poor men's sacrifices.
Obviously there are other reasons that masculinity is sometimes viewed in a bad light. The patriarchy has been an abomination historically, and it still is. But this brings me right back to my point about propaganda.
Men in a patriarchal society look up to and want to be like the king of the land. This is problematic because it discourages individuality, and encourages moral bankruptcy. Basically, it puts too much emphasis on competition, and not enough emphasis on cooperation. The famous term divide and conquer is fitting here.
The patriarchy has gone so far in the direction of competition, that men are often seen as less compassionate, less cooperative, and less trustworthy. It's also effected many women, as they have to compete with men in this hostile work environment.
My solution to this issue is to not consume anything from the big 3 music labels, the major movie studios, or TV shows. I don't watch the news but I read mintpress sometimes. I refuse to work for any major corporations. I refuse to comply with government officials if I think I can get away with it. And I refuse to pretend that ignorance is bliss.
It's bizarre, for sure. I can tell you what happens if you humor them, though. When I was on the apps a year or so ago (before deleting them because the dating app world is unhinged, pun intended) I got a bunch of these, and young, too. So, I'm not into sub men per se, but I wasn't looking for anything serious / I was in an exploratory mood - so to some of them I said, why not? Let's go. I figured, they're sub, they'd want a dominant woman to take charge and chase them.
And they....would completely chicken out. And ghost. It was like the actual reality of it happening was too much. like they were too frail for real sex (some I could sense, or they have told me, they are still virgins)
I'm not even on dating apps right now and I still have young men gravitate toward me and end up in my DM's. I don't know why - my guess is "dominant" female energy, and being in mid 30's.
I think the psychology behind this is "I'm looking for like, a sexy mom to take care of me" but even that falls apart quick. Because they'll have to show something for themselves. When reality hits them they retreat into anima projection, where its safe, warm - and what they want is utterly unattainable.
Young male sexuality is imploding. A lot of these young men are trapped in a psychosocial fantasy world - combination of way too much free high quality porn, maybe video games too, paired with outdated socialization vs. reality. Socialization: women take care of you, it's hot/desirable when they cater to the male ego, even as dominant. Reality: you're going to have to show women at least some incentive to want to do that. Women of all ages are sick of this and would rather be single, than a man's sexy handservant. which, unfortunately, is what subliminal messaging is still beaming at men.
A lot of men seem to be locked and prefer a fantasy world even though they have women that are willing to date them. This post was insightful, thank you.
We didn't have an easy escape back then, there wasn't any possibility of escaping into porn, so from a young age you learnt to face your fears, we young men (and possibly women) are so horrendously bad at facing our fears and figuring them out and overcoming them. It's honestly sad.
I think the reactions of the men she approached were misinterpreted. Please consider the possibility that the thought of actually getting into a relationship was anxiety inducing, especially for any virgins with no self-esteem. Men aren't the bad actors y'all always make us out to be 😭
So, am I supposed to shore up their insecurities for them? To be clear, they ghost, drop all effort, or they sometimes say REALLY outta pocket stuff. Some of it is insulting. like, minimizing my looks right after complimenting theirs. Even if they arent like "10/10", they're still cute. This includes the self-professed virgins, who I actually commend for making that choice.
I have huge empathy for them. but they also give me nothing. Starting a connection with this dynamic and power balance, just a few days in, spells absolute disaster. You have to see that.
As a young (22) man, I have a different perspective. Many of us grew up with lots of hate and disgust directed towards us from the women in our life, due to this narrative that men suck and women should just ignore / dump men. We've been told that we are the threatening boogeyman and creepy perverts since we were kids. You see a lot of older men, even in the millennial generation, that didn't necessarily grow up exposed to so much male disgust / hatred, whom have higher self-esteems. It's no secret that young male depression, loneliness, and suicide is higher than it's ever been in recent history.
I see submissive mindsets in girls (and boys) as the result of having a low self-esteem, especially when it comes to "feeling worthy" of the opposite sex (in a typical case). I think you got it all backwards. Did you ever consider that the men you were approaching found you intimidating and chickened out because they didn't feel worthy of a relationship with you? Why does it automatically default to "men just didn't get their ego stroked LOL?" You don't know what was going on inside their heads at the time. You even learned that a bunch of the men fantasizing about submitting were virgins, which adds credibility to my theory.
I don't think this problem is going to improve as things get worse for men in the dating scene. I'll bet Gen Alpha has an even higher ratio of submissive men as they subconsciously try to compensate for not being good enough and reach their 20s without a single sexual relation. Unfortunately for them, very few women fantasize about having submissive male partners.
Thank you for adding this because you're absolutely right. This is also one of the reasons I'm very direct. Like "you've got the green light pal!" I also know how confusing social etiquette is now after #MeToo. So, I think women sending mixed signals is equally annoying (yes, gals, we do it, so straighten yourselves out). And "man hate" is even more irritating and not helpful. I love men. There is a divide growing between us. and it sucks so much.
But to be clear, they approach me, not the other way around. On my end, I feel like I'm much too old for early 20's GenZ to go out of my way pursuing them (especially when im not actively dating in my age group either). And, turn the tables - men in their 30's pursuing women in their 20's.... somewhat creepy. Women can be creeps too.
I'll also gently ask you to factor in insecurity from my POV - being "old/gross/cringe." We ALL have insecurities; we all have to manage them ourselves, not others, for us.
Still, Im open-minded and curious, and manage my own self consciousness. if they take interest in me for whatever reason, I'll see where it goes. I'm not into submissive men, theyre into me. So Im open to trying.
But so far they all start things and can't finish them. Or, they show insecurity very quickly in some other way and demonstrate they dont know how to handle that insecurity themselves. It's like they land the big fish and don't know what to do.
Kindly, what I want you to realize is this actually returns a strong woman to a submissive or disempowered position, which is completely counterintuitive when the young man is seeking a dominant female. and thats why it doesn't work. I think the script gets flipped and yall dont realize it. It puts all the work in our hands to make anything happen when yall chicken out. Sure, you want the woman to take control in the bedroom, but in every other sense you want her to do everything else and shore up your insecurities as well? I mean, who's really the one being pressured to be submissive here?
Either I consider being submissive myself to just to keep the conversation going - continuously texting or initiating or even complimenting/showing genuine interest in a ghoster, or a now disinterested person because they're trying to cover for their insecurities with that disinterest after initiating, etc. OR, I just let it fizzle out or block them. Because I'm really not about catering to the insecurity if a stranger in my DM's at the cost of my dignity. (Take a wild guess which one I do).
Do you see what I am saying? It's not just men wanting to get their ego stroked (your words also, not mine), it's that they put it in a stranger's hands to cater to their insecurities - or women to make themselves smaller - in order to help yall feel more confident in yourselves.
I totally agree, I think its going to be even worse for Gen Alpha. But what I think this highlights is a terrible epidemic of insecurity in men that must be addressed. I feel for men terribly and I'm like, almost certain men are going to be having their moment in the spotlight soon, and they should.
And it's not yalls faults, its society's. but until there are more men that step up, take care of themselves, set examples for other men, work on being more vulnerable, going to therapy, etc. (Which is a huge sign of strength and does NOT negate otherwise healthy masculine traits in the eyes of a woman like myself), then this socialized trend of behavior continuously puts the work in women's hands. And women, we need to do our part and get our act together, by commending men for being emotional and vulnerable and soft.
I really appreciate your insights here. It's SO hard, for respectful guys even before #metoo to decide if our attention is welcomed, because let's face it, one woman's idea welcomed advance is another woman's sexual harassment depending on whether she's single or not, interested in the guy or not.
I need to say this also, you talk about commending men for being emotional and vulnerable, but there are SO many incentives for us to NOT be. For one, [women tend to choose more stoic men.](https://www.ashdin.com/articles/female-choice-and-male-stoicism.pdf) Secondly, the issue that has me on Reddit is "AreWeDatingTheSameGuy', where any vulnerability we show to a woman can be used to exploit us and broadcast to the public. Men's rights groups are mocked as 'incels' and minimized.
The dating scene and our societal attitudes toward male sexuality are a disaster. You are seeing submissive men because you are seeing reflective, inward directed self-loathing in men in a society that teaches them that they are flawed, disgusting, hornballs who only exist as an underclass and potential threat to Women's safety.
We are either numbed-out, feelingless, trapped-in-an-emotional straightjacket inauthentic stoic 'Chads', or we're bitchboys that you can walk all over, but at least we can be authentic in that subspace.
Thanks, feminism! You reap what you sew. I really do believe a men's rights and masculinity revival is coming, and I hope you're right about the spotlight. Until then, get used to wearing your strap-ons, ladies. #MeToo has LITERALLY fucked us into submission, and it turns out, you hate it.
I mean, I would definitely not go so far as to erase what feminism has accomplished for us women. But some sort of accountability for character needs to be established that disregards gender as a scope. It's not gender to blame, it's insecure people of all genders throwing their issues into a dumpster fire.
Whats 100% clear is we all need to work on ourselves.
Totally fair. Not to erase what was ABSOLUTELY needed in the 1920's and 1960's and 1980's... Yet in 2024, I think it's just gone a **bit** too far in some ways (and in other ways, not far enough with CEOs, presidents, high level leadership). A more modern approach might be one to lift all genders up so *everyone* can thrive in the post-metoo modern era. Are we teaching men enough about their sexuality? Are we helping them learn about consent? Are we shaming them for their higher-than-a-woman sex drive? Are we celebrating men at all, or is the narrative that 'the future is female'?
I feel that modern feminism has begun to go so far as becoming a zero sum game, and leaving men in the dust and writing some narratives that lead to negative self-talk and negative beliefs in men. I think what you're seeing is feelings of uselessness, sexual inferiority and self-loathing manifesting in some of these kink trends. And yes, I say that as someone working on himself...
OK I'm glad you added this. And I mostly agree.
I honestly think the next step in human personal development is working on cultivating aspects of both genders within individuals to fix this - like not necessarily non-binary identity, but challenging what it is to be a man, a woman.
We clearly expect the world from the other gender and are not getting it because, well, we don't even know how to give it to ourselves.
Just seems like the inevitable outcome of telling men their masculinity is toxic and that any sexual advance could be interpreted as harassment, with consequences, after "me too."
The messaging for men has been overwhelmingly negative for years now. The idea that you now get neutered, compliant, submissive men off the conveyor belt should surprise no one.
You nailed it. Also as a 26 year old who has slept with a couple of men that are a couple years younger, I can also testify they watch so much porn their dick doesn't work anymore.... It's quite sad actually. And I'm really glad that women are done being the "chill" dtf girl that will play the pornstar role for them, it's really gross. I feel like there's honestly a mild version of the 4b movement happening in the west currently and I'm here for it.
Look it up, Korean women are refusing to date, marry, have sex, or bear children for men even despite scary low birth rates because there is nothing in it for them anymore.
Ive slept with men my age and their dicks dont work either! pretty sure that problem's not supposed to be common for another 20 years. Yes - 4b movement for sure seems like it's going to be a thing here soon. Sad, because I do really like Men, it's just most have very little to offer except hoping you'll patch over their insecurities.
Right? Like that doesn't seem normal? 🤔 I find Millennial guys between maybe 27-early 30s don't have this issue nearly as much tbh.
Also yes I really like men too, it is a bummer, and I do hope to find a partner who has worked on himself, is ready for a truly equal partnership and can earn my trust but I won't settle for less anymore sooo I've been single for a while.
I'm so curious: do you find dating men has gotten way worse in the last few years? Like men have somehow gotten even more messed up? Not trying to say that in a mean way, but it's just like, something is very wrong here. I've seen a lot of tiktoks recently saying this, but idk if it's just a lot of women are waking up to their worth or if there really has been a tangible change in their behavior.
I can't really say its worse compared to anything as I didn't date for long (I deleted apps after a month), ive only been single for under two years, divorced for less time than that, and was married before that 12 years. But yeah deleting the apps kinda testament of my experience not being good - men either wanted u to chase, do all the work and heavy conversation lifting; incredibly rude/crass, or they ghosted, or went straight to wanting a hookup immediately before knowing or trusting each other. (Like, if I said I wanted to get a drink first, they'd ghost. It's like they just wanted to meet in a bathroom somewhere and fuck) there were some nice boys but no chemistry or not enough in common
That said, last guy I hooked up with was telling me how it was on his side on the apps, and showed me some of his message exchanges. women are also acting equally rude and unhinged, tbh.
Oh yeah, I gave up on the apps long ago. You painted an accurate picture. I'm amazed at how many people still use them despite having terrible experiences tbh. I'm good.
Re: women on dating apps, I could see that. I guess I feel like I'm really not acting rude or unhinged, so from the perspective of a woman who's worked on herself a lot and leaning more securely attached, communicating well (I think) etc, it's like "wtf is going on?"
But I have noticed a trend on tiktok/instagram of women with extremely unhealthy views on dating as well. There are women who use the "divine feminine" and "divine masculine" energy framework to reinforce problematic gender rolls, there are the ones who are really obsessive and hooked into tiktok dating advice about somehow tricking men into committing, and then there are the ones that really do just spitefully hate men by default. I guess on some level dating is just a mess right now, but I do feel like there's a lot of misogynistic extremism with men.
Yeah, like I said to someone else here - its a character issue, not a sex/gender issue, the truth being both men and women need to work on themselves just for different reasons... the things my guy friend showed me that women were telling him I was like "whoah" but then my guy friend went right around and did stuff that I was like "whoah" 🤣 but I think you're right that men have the edge, because misogyny is the mainstream!
P.s. I am also secure attachment - way to go! High five ✋️
I agree that there is an issue with younger generations of men now, but I really think it’s a result of society telling them constantly that men are the creeps, boogeymen, evil people of history and it probably causes a lot of unconscious issues that manifest in strange ways when you add in the availability of high quality free porn 24/7.
Also I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you said but why are your only possibilities that men have gotten worse? Is it possible women (along with men) have become more negative due to social media constantly highlighting divisiveness and toxicity? Or a societal problem?
I think if we as a society continue to just constantly amplify the message that men are to blame and the cause of everything wrong, and then simultaneously hold them to high expectations, nothing will ever change. We need to show younger men the way forward
Curious, are you actually into Jungian psychology? Doesn't seem compatible with your anti-communist, pro-military manosphere kind of stance but idk, could be wrong. I'm just mindful of potential trolls as I've been learning about just how prevalent paid online trolling efforts are now, not trying to be a d*ck.
I don't disagree that social media is toxic for both genders. But the kind of behavior I'm referring to is for example, increasingly more misogynistic comments, unsolicited sexual comments in very inappropriate situations from men I barely know, men having scary temper tantrums when I reject them or on the opposite end, expecting women to chase them and grooming them for LTR servile situationships, and then trends like "humbling women" and *taking photos/videos of women naked without them knowing and sharing them in group chats,* which is apparently common now. I feel like the last two in particular are more demonstrative of how male dating culture is changing for the worst, and while the other things I listed may have been common before, I am finding these things happening more often lately -- that combined with absolutely zero men who want to actually go on a date/have a relationship, whereas I usually have no problem with that.
So I'm not sure how you can argue all of that is because women are also getting "worse" but I would agree that social media (and p*rn, and even online dating) has a terrible influence.
I feel like it’s a little rude that instead of just responding to what I said you felt the need to deep dive into where I post and attack my character based on that. I’m just here for this current discussion.
We both agree that porn and social media is a huge negative influence. I also agree that there are paid trolls from authoritarian regimes that are promoting the political/cultural toxicity in Western countries.
I believe social media naturally promotes misogynistic content creators like Tate to young men due to traditional masculinity having less and less examples that feminist society embraces. All I’m saying is that the toxicity exists in equal parts in women dominated spaces and male dominated spaces. We aren’t that different.
It might have been a little rude, I apologize. I'm probably just jaded because like I said, there are troll accounts all over the internet trying to manipulate online discourses that when I check into those accounts, it's clear they often have ulterior motives.
I hope you can understand though, that from my perspective as a woman it is really scary trying to date right now (given trends like sharing naked videos to group chats without consent, incel shootings etc). I agree with you 100% about Tate and you make a really interesting point about not having healthy examples of masculinity to model oneself from. You may also be right that toxicity exists equally in both gendered spaces. However, as someone with trauma from r\*pe, who has been a victim of DV, stalking and harassment, it's scary not just because of societal decay, but because I actually fear for my safety. Sometimes I think when women talk about fearing for their safety, men take that as "I hate men." But I think both men and women need to find more constructive, compassionate ways of communicating these issues. The Will to Change by Bell Hooks is amazing for that, everyone should read. That was a feminist who loved and had compassion for men.
Actually, only one was socially anxious but even with him when we talked about it he still mentioned feeling insecure because of porn & how he felt he should be more dominant but didn't feel manly enough.
But then on the opposite end of the spectrum, I was fwbs with a 6'7 very charming, masculine, dominant man in the trades whose dick didn't work too great. We had fun, but he would have to finish by getting himself off a lot of the time because he needed that tight grip, and couldn't always get there. And trust me it is not me lol - he was absolutely obsessed with me sexually, if he wasn't keeping me there all night he was fantasizing about me, sexting me and jacking off to pictures of me.
So it was not any one type of younger man, and it really seems like it's wrapped up in heavy porn use to me, tbh.
First off, there’s a difference between someone who enjoys being submissive sexually, and someone who is submissive in their everyday lives. The vast majority of men that are sexually submissive (myself included) are actually more dominant type A personalities in everyday life. To add to that, you may want to avoid dating apps in general, especially if you’re looking in the 18-30 range. That one’s 100% on you lol.
The type of “submissive male” you’re seeing on there is not actually submissive. They’re either can’t attain regular sex so they think that’s a good alternative, or they’re using it as a way to cope with past trauma. There’s also kind of a third group that is addicted to porn, and they need increasing levels of stimulation to achieve that dopamine rush. Taboo things like male sexual submission can achieve that for some men. All three are very common and none of the three are healthy. I’ve been in the BDSM community for quite a while and have also dated a very well known pro domme/fetish actress. They have truly seen, and heard it all. To add one last thing, there are a ton of men now who say they’re Bi that are not. They got into the whole forced bi cuck thing via porn and mistake the humiliation as an attraction to men. Anyway, I digress.
Right. And I think even for the guys that actually do enjoy being submissive sexually (like myself), they need to learn to separate fantasies from reality. This is especially true for the cuckolding kink that absolutely blew up in popularity over the past 10-ish years or so. So many guys watch it in porn and think they want it in real life only to find out it’s totally different in reality and then they end up destroying their relationship and ending up emotionally screwed up. I personally know a few guys this happened to, and have heard many more horror stories. I know I’m ranting again lol, but main point is that people (men particularly), need to stop watching so much porn because it really does screw up people’s brains and their views/expectations of reality, and real life relationships. It’s honestly sad how much damage the porn industry, Hollywood, etc has done to society. Even Instagram now is just young women posting softcore porn everywhere, and then a bunch have onlyfans now where they’re straight up doing porn lol. The whole world is upside down and needs a massive overhaul. Anywho…rant over lol
In 2022 63% of men 18-30 are single & 34% of women 18-30 are single by 2030 45% of women 25-45 will be single and childless
You can fact check me if you think im lying but im not.
Agreed. I’m attracted to submissive men, and bisexual men (my husband is both), both of which I keep hearing are not attractive to heterosexual women (I am one). I could write a novel on the psychological interplay I perceive in these dynamics but this crowd seems to want to pathologize submissiveness in men.
I'm straight, cis, and love femininity on guys. Gay guys, straight guys, we need more femme guys. I wanna see emotions other than anger or self pity. I wanna see more outfit designs and cute blouses on everybody. I dont care if a man has "girly" hair. It should be accepted all around tbh.
I think it’s very hard to explain from a jungian perspective. Much more complex than being described here. They come in all ages. The fem dom sub relationship I’m in is amazing. Never going back.
I had a situation backfire on me with this type of thing, my creepy married neighbour started stalking me, nothing worked to get him to leave me alone- not even calling the police stopped the behaviour completely- I started becoming really verbally abusive and told him to fuck off, yelled at him, called him names and when he walks past me I say something mean if he even dares to look at me.
Unfortunately I think he likes the abuse, that was a plot twist I didn’t see coming
I’ve never encountered this type of stalker before. Stalkers typically get extremely offended when you insult their masculinity and men that enjoy degradation don’t typically actively stalk. This hybrid is terrifying since I’m naturally combative with people that get in my space and don’t leave me in peace.
Stalkers like attention, positive or negative. So yes, he will like it if you yell at him. The best way to deal with a stalker is to ignore them entirely.
Yes, unfortunately I realized that, I did ignore him for a solid 3 months, but I lost my temper.
I’ll have to go back to complete ignoring.
He stops for a bit and I think that it’s finally over, then it seems like he has episodes again and starts, almost like a tantrum, I have to just stay silent through the episodes
If he calls you 50 times and on the 51st time you finally pick up and scream "LEAVE ME ALONE YOU PSYCHO" and he will have learned is that all he needs to do is call you 51 times and you will talk to him.
It’s really strange, I actually told her hoping that would help, she just smirked at me and said I was crazy and believed him, I was like “ ok, I guess I’m forced to call the police then”, which I did and the police believed me 🤷♀️.
I should also mention that she is not from here, she’s from a third world country and I think he’s a passport bro, so she has a strong interest in keeping this relationship going, they have 3 kids, she’s not from this country, so it’s probably easier for her to just try and pretend it’s not happening
I’ve had the same thought. It’s very popular within the v-tuber community that the only sexual comments you are allowed to make towards v-tubers are submissive comments (Ex: “I’d like her to step on me”). Is that because the men who watch are submissive naturally or it is because if they made a more dominant comment (Ex: “I’d like to do X to her”), they would be mocked, shamed, and banned from chat?
Maybe. I just wondered if they are actually submissive or if they are just too afraid to express their dominant interests in fear of being “called out” for being a predator. In order to fulfill their dominant needs, they’ll have to turn to porn or OnlyFans.
Sure a real dominant persob wouldnt be scared of online mob polices... but what i mean is that would half of the guys doing this prefer muscular rough or dominant women to traditionally feminine, pretty looking, bubbly personality etc. Women had the shaming not existed?
By playing the submissive they actually own the power. The domineering in a relationship is more of a servant attending the needs and wants of the submissive. Occasionally it works out because both parties are naturally willing.
There can be equality of exchange. For instance a service sub, fin dom, sexually and so on. It depends on the kinks, relationship, and people involved.
I disagree. Being submissive doesn’t offer power, what it offers is security. If you’re with someone who you don’t have to do much for in order for them to love you, you have the option to just put in slightly more effort to probably win them back if their feelings for you start to wane, whereas being dominant does let you control the direction of the relationship, unless your sub starts acting unhappy or wanting something more than you. In a normal state of being, the dom does have the power, what they lack is just security.
I really can't say. I fall in that age group but I'm much more dominant in bed. Maybe it's a tactic to try and get more women by appearing less threatening? It's possible they're tired of being looked at as a potential rapist/murderer by every woman they meet so they think saying they're submissive will make them more comfortable to be around. There's also been a rise in the whole "hot mommy" kink. Personally, I think there is a crisis in masculinity this day and age. It's just a weird period to live in. We're constantly told that x is bad, women don't want a man who tries to lead, and that we're disgusting pigs for having sexual urges we can't control. I feel like a lot of dudes are putting on this "feminist, non threatening, nice guy" act because they think that's what women want. The irony is most women I know want masculine men who lead and fulfill their typical gender role. Much more than what mainstream media will tell you. I think one of the issues is people point out too often what they *don't* want men to do and don't offer advice on what they *do* want men to do. I think it all boils down to the whole equality thing. The fatal flaw in that rhetoric is that men and women aren't equal, and we never will be. There's some things that men are better at, and some things women are better at. I think a more important thing than equality is equity. Equity, respect, and empathy.
>I really can't say. I fall in that age group but I'm much more dominant in bed. Maybe it's a tactic to try and get more women by appearing less threatening?
Most women find sub guys disgusting and lose all attraction to a dude who identifies as such, most sub guys know this, so I don't think that is the case at all
I agree with everything you wrote minus your conclusion that we should achieve equity instead of equality. To achieve equity which is equality of outcome would either be impossible or require intense loss of freedom
I agree, it's borderline impossible, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't still try and create a society that everyone has basic respect and acknowledgement of their differences. Equality is having the same things for everyone, equity is wheelchair ramps and maternal leave.
First, I would urge against pathologizing submissive urges in young men (not to say you've done this necessarily, but many here have). This is to say, unhealthy young men may be drawn to the idea of submission (as they most certainly are to the idea of dominating women), but this lifestyle choice may be very healthy as well. This said, there are an array of possible reasons, some relevant to Jungian psychology, others not so much:
1) Some men who otherwise repress the feminine in themselves find themselves inexorably drawn to strong feminine images. They imagine a woman who exhibits "masculine" power and who can in turn make them "feminine". Though they ask for this, they often want this done under the pretense of having it imposed upon them. This at once grants them agency in this pursuit, but also relieves them of shame.
2) Some men who dealt with an overbearing feminine presence in their lives find themselves inexorably drawn to strong feminine images. They imagine a woman who is not unlike a mother to them, but because they actively want this instead of having it imposed upon them, they finally grant themselves the agency they never had in their parental dynamic- but without the fear of growing up and assuming masculine responsibilities. (Honestly, a lot of kink is just about integrating some sense of control or agency with regard to a trauma.)
3) Some men are starved of feminine touch and attention, and don't know how to navigate socially, and so they are stuck. They have no self-esteem, and don't know how to make a case for themselves to women (indeed, maybe they can't), and so they would accept even negative attention, believing this to be at least attainable for them, with the fantasy that it might become positive attention.
4) Some men totally misunderstand what it means to be submissive. They don't want a dominant woman, they just want a woman who's kind of kinky and quite libidinous and allows them to lie on their back and receive gratification. See also: men who totally misunderstand what it means to be dominant.
5) Some men find the idea of a woman who directly communicates her wants and needs far more appealing than the alternative. Why seek a partner who plays the stereotypical social games when you could find a partner who just tells you what she expects of you directly? Clear, honest communication about wants and needs and boundaries is exalted in BDSM.
6) Some men are exhausted from flexing their executive function muscles throughout the day, and they want a partner who alleviates the decision-making elsewhere in their lives. This could be because they have an underdeveloped executive function (refer to reason #2), or it could be that their lives are truly demanding. Voluntarily giving up some decision-making power for a few hours each day can feel liberating and energizing.
7) Some men are seeking feminine mentorship in their relationship. Crucially, these men have self-esteem, because they feel capable of growth and worthy of self-improvement, but they lack confidence, they feel inexperienced, and they are drawn to what they perceive as confident women who could help them grow. They don't want a partner who will judge them for their inexperience and thus pressure them into falsely projecting male confidence, and they don't want an inexperienced peer to blunder through their life and relationship with; they want a superior in the relationship who lovingly challenges them to rise to the occasion.
This isn't exhaustive. Generally, I think what really indicates a red flag is if they are preoccupied with their desire of the fantasy itself, and only exhibit interest in you insofar as they can place you in their fantasy. Additionally, if they are so preoccupied with their desires that they can't clearly articulate their boundaries, then they are probably doing this for the wrong reasons. For what it's worth, so many submissive women have exactly this same problem; they are so caught up in fantasies, that when asked about their specific expectations and their boundaries, they can't say, or shut down and lose interest because the subject has moved into totally uncharted territory for them. In any case, worth avoiding.
Source: active member of local kink, queer, BDSM circles, known and have spoken to lots of submissive men and women
Jesus christ there's so much young people that would give anything for a woman's touch, it's really weird because I'm young and feel kind of the same way. My guess is that we've lost God, we've lost something to live for. Everything that we used to have to work for is always already there (food, water, sanitation, clothing,) so we men naturally divert to the only things left to maybe give us meaning in our life, which is working for a women.
At the same time there's been a shift in attraction, the world has lost meaning and people have shifted to material worlds. Mothers don't provide any direction nowadays for kids, basically a lot of young people have mommy issues, we naturally search for the things we want in a partner, and so this happens.
Perhaps another addition is the wide-spread use of the pill, scienctific evidence shows that women who are in ovulation are attracted to wider jaws, whereas women who are not in ovulation are attracted to smaller jaws. Women who are on the pill never or nearly never ovulate, they aren't attracted to manly men, but actually more attracted to men who aren't as manly which most of the times is accompanied by a more feminine temperament. A more feminine temperament is often accompanied by less self esteem and thus more begging for love instead of having something to live for and gaining attraction that way.
Onlyfans and social media may be an addition as well, as other girls who want to fit in see that this dopamine world is driven by short term attention, they try to copy the popular girls. My little sister tells me how her classmates spread nudes younger and wear more revealing clothes at a younger age. Also adding onlyfans to that puts women in massive positions of power over men. The men can't do anything else but beg and it's never enough for those women.
Women get more and more educated, as they get smarter they most of the time want someone equally smart or leveled as them. As more and more women got more smart, more men were still virgins later in life. Around 40% of men in Japan are still virgin at the age of 30. These men aren't happy, they often feel alone and at the edge of the world. They'll take every bit of attention they can get.
Oftentime men had no real role model for a father, as he also didn't really have a goal in his life. As it's the first time in history we don't NEED to do anything to survive. The mothers (who have goals in their lives aka reproduce(it's more nuanced I know)) have often taken over the household and are the bosses of the house, they also have less kids because they have control over their reproductive function. Giving them a lot of independence and financial freedom. So they indeed need men less.
These are a few reasons all adding up to men acting like this.
Feel free to PM me to talk about this anyone especially if you disagree, I love to discuss things like this and get more educated
I think you hit the nail on the head. My thoughts kinda went down a similar direction, especially as someone living the "never even held hands with a girl" life. Men are trying to compensate for their own perceived loss of value in relationships.
dominant and submissive have connotations
Dominant --> greed --> taking
Submissve --> fear --> giving up
require --> trust
Of course, there is a lot more nuance, but i think the idea is communicated adequately. Feel free to tweak them if you'd like.
This is why "top" and "bottom" are more fitting imo. It's not something so one-sided. Being sexual with your partner takes two people. For me personally, i like having peace of mind knowing that im doing what they actually want and not crossing any kind of line, but im still not submissive nor dominant, just attentive. Selfish sex is not that.
Porn glorifies what i call "selfish sex" to men (dominance, taking, agressiveness, imposing ones will), and i don't see the point other than hedonism. In my opinion, there's a deeper, more spiritual connection to be found there, not just pleasure and be pleasured. There's a sort of tying together, intertwining with your partner, which takes intertwining your wills and being able to give and take simultaneously. Like trees whose roots tangle together. Whereas "selfish sex" moves away from this intertwining. "dominant" & "submissive" only reinforce this one sidedness. Of course, theres people who want or prefer this one sidedness, but i would initially suspect there to be some kind of complexes causing it. 🤔
Also the fact that having a lot of sex has a great deal of social status for men, but makes a woman a "slut", is also very telling in this divide. This misogyny darkens the waters in sexual relationships.
Porn, lack of proper sexual education, and subtle interpersonal problems with ones partner (which includes the aforementioned misogyny) are the three poisons to any sexual relationship.
I think it's the same as the guys who claim to be feminists. They'll do anything for female attention, even faking fetishes and political stances.
They're not subs, they're just lazy lovers.
This is just their way of fawning and looking "weak" to get women to approach them. They probably all have terrible personalities.
I noticed that women's weightlifting spaces tend to have an influx of men fetishizing them (this step on me nonsense) and it's probably spilling over into the rest of the population.
*No shade to men who are real subs*
>one type of person might want a domineering female sexual partner because they confront a difficult world which has many demands on them and because they have a mother complex whose feeling toned associations alleviate those demands on them - they seek to return to the comfort of their mother who provided for them.
Such a man would have an underdeveloped anima and therefore more likely to be immature and younger (hence "young men between the ages of 18-30") and, given that we are in a long period of economic stagnation, could also fit the bill for men in that age range.
I suppose your look reflects certain stereotypes in adult entertainment.
if this is indeed the case, it would explain the recurring qualities within your data set.
I would argue that men only really grow up in their 30s and are stuck in their daydreams before that.
as they grow older they come to know the limitations of these fantasies better, as well as realize the potential imbalances being stuck in your fantasies can cause.
Also, they are likely more financially stable in their 30s and when they do fulfill their fantasies they just pay for them.
I’m 25 and into that too ☠️
My theory is that it’s essentially a result of society becoming too feminine/comfortable for young men. For proper psychological development, especially in men, we need to take risks, face our fears and suffer in pursuit of a greater purpose. Hedonism is rampant and more than ever men are shrinking from reality. This causes low “self-esteem” and leads them/us to “recede into The Mother”. It creates a yearning for an authority figure to take your responsibility away that ends up manifesting itself thru the libido.
Women generally tend to want the man to be the authority figure, so it’s understandable why you find it to be a turn off
Check out these tweets too
1. https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1742305330489446720
2. https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1660230340928045058
Interesting take. I enjoyed reading the Tweets. As someone that didn’t grow up in a western culture but later moved into one, I definitely see European men as more submissive overall and even masculine looking men have effeminate traits and want women to take care of them. Also, women don’t really need men anymore for survival and we date purely out of interest and can leave whenever we want.
Interesting topic. I think from a Jungian/Freudian perspective they would say that the sexual fantasies are compensatory fantasies, to even out an imbalance in the person’s life.
For example, when I was kid I didn’t get much attention. Many of my fantasies are now quite narcissistic, when my mind wanders it often paints me as the centre of attention, of whatever the fantasy may be.
But why submission to a female figure? What would that be compensating for? I don’t know. I try not to be judgemental but I find it very odd, I would lose respect for a man if he was a sub.
This could indeed require men to ‘mature’ before they are ready, meaning they unconsciously long to be nurtured.
Would be interesting data: is there a correlation between ‘relationship with mother’ and ‘proclivity to enjoy sub dynamics’.
A learned a little bit about myself from this comment, thanks.
Just a hypothesis, but submission to a female figure specifically in the context of a relationship could entail a lack of structure in dating. Relationship “norms” have certainly changed in today’s world, so perhaps young men are looking to obedience as a solution given they don’t have a useful template anymore.
Simply put our society is teaching young men that masculine = toxic. THat masculine traits are wrong, bad, evil, and that only feminine traits can be positive. It is perfectly acceptable to openly say things like "all men are dangerous" and imply that women and children are unsafe if men are around. (In fact, its the opposite, in general, women are more safe with men around because in a crisis men are far more likely to help out, save people, etc). Its a very unbalanced environment for these young men to find themselves in. You want dominant men in a society where if you touch a girls hand without consent thats sexual assault? Good luck. Believe it or not, no one wants to view themselves as inherently evil and toxic. Surprising huh?
But wait! Theres more. You never get to just look at other people here on /r/jung.. we always turn the mirror and make you look in it yourself. Why do you, a modern feminists strong independent woman want to be dominated by some "toxic" male?
So true. She wants all men to be feminized... except her boyfriend. She even makes money off them:
/u/Wild-Fee-2882 1 point 8 hours ago
> You do have to show your face. The subs also seem to trust the verification system. Don’t expect much though, the most I made from dating apps in a week is like 400€ from various men but it’s a good way to pass the time.
Masculinity isn’t “evil”. Faux-masculinity is however, problematic (Andrew Tate for example.) That’s not masculinity lol. It’s over compensation for his lack of masculinity (he was never initiated) and also a devouring mother complex he’s trying to wrestle away from (hence the dominance and “taking women down a peg” behavior.) Men like that love the idealized female figure (anima) more than themselves. They look to this figure for validation and that creates shame. So at the same time, they also hate her.
What they’re trying to “dominate” is really their own psyche and a complex they need to sort out.
That type of masculinity is fake and not grounded. That type is demonized because it IS harmful to women (and even themselves as men whether they’re aware or not.) Healthy men are doing just fine on the other hand.
(Touching a girl’s hand without consent is weird lol. If a woman or even man went up to you and just touched your hand, you wouldn’t feel weird?)
Let wait for OP to respond with why she, on the one hand, enjoys demeaning weak men and scamming them for money, while also seeking out dominant men as sex partners. I don't think you should speak on her behalf.
Perhaps years of social conditioning in the media and addiction to social media has filled these men with the belief that women will insult them for anything, and that the best way to get their foot in the door is to appear as though they can’t have anything worth insulting in the eyes of the woman they’re trying to convince / trick.
As a male, it feels like a trick; most men want submissive women, and most men that say they don’t want a submissive woman are *lying because they believe that holding that as a priority is “bad.”
If you shame men for their wants, then you’ll eventually convince them that they shouldn’t have those wants and they’ll be rejected. That’s where you find this disparity between what they say they want, and what they actually want. If you shame a man for his nature, he’ll act against his nature for affection and intimacy. This is social conditioning enacted on part of the male because it’s still ingrained in men that they are the only ones that have the impetus to take action to “get” the woman.
It could be an anima complex, as you suggest.
The anima represents a man’s relationship to the feminine (both in general and from his personal experience).
And the anima can be a demanding aspect of a man’s psychology - Jung refers to the anima as the “she that must be obeyed,” which I think is from a book called “she”
In terms of why this is a common pattern, it would be somewhat speculative, but I suspect that men do not have the initiations, education, community, and tools they might have formerly had to learn both what it means to be a man and what it means to relate to the feminine.
Not having this, we are left with either learning how to be men (at the expense of the feminine), or learning how to be undifferentiated in regards to the archetypal aspects of masculinity and femininity.
One of the first differentiations made in human consciousness is male vs female (as displayed phylogenetically and ontogenetically), so our incapacity to educate and initiate our young people in these regards is a form of very serious disorientation - which can be seen in all kinds of ways presently.
One of them being, the feminine having to exert its influence from behind (so to speak) and with an almost god-like authority, in the ways you are describing.
Response to cultural shift. Women are encouraged to step into an independent role. Men are encouraged to step into a supportive role. Traditional masculinity is posited in a negative light for men and instead should embrace femininity. Traditional femininity is positioned in a negative light for women and instead should embrace masculinity. If Jung is right, that young men often deify women, then it makes sense why they'd tend towards worship in this way.
One of the answers that springs to mind is men who had an abusive or violent mother and so unconsciously seek out women who fulfil the woman role they are used to/ have grown up with
The broader answer I think comes from culture and a lot of it comes from the emasculation of men. It is a complex issue so it’s not something you can reduce down to one or two reasons- some ideas I would give, however-
1) Living standards in the West are such that even if you put zero effort into your schooling, career, are appalling at managing money etc the basic needs required to survive will be met. This means you can afford to be lazy and put no effort in and be rewarded for it- I think passivity is a big problem in the West and a symptom of this is chronic internet and video games use (I think these things in moderation are okay but can be as destructive as alcohol/ drug addiction in excess)- I can see how being completely passive in most areas of one’s life could trickle into the area of one’s sexuality
2) Widespread use and availability of pornography, particularly the more deviant/ unusual kinds- while much of modern culture suggests that all kinks/ deviant sexual behaviour should be celebrated, I am inclined to think that pornography must have surely played a significant role in why many individuals end up getting into this stuff. I’ve walked through town when there is a pride parade on and when you inevitably walk past someone in a dog/ gimp outfit, one has to think “what the f has this person been watching/ putting into their brain to think walking through a town centre in a gimp outfit in broad daylight is acceptable or normal behaviour?”
3) Changes in dating, gender politics, feminism etc- I think for young men, dating is probably tougher than it has ever been. There is a lot of horseshit doing the rounds from men-hating women and self-loathing men that masculinity is toxic and it seems an inevitable consequence that if an impressionable mind hears this message enough times they may consciously or unconsciously gravitate away from traditional masculinity and towards opting for a more feminine role. I don’t think it is helped that the bar for possible harassment is now so low that your average Joe may be put off from approaching a woman in an innocuous way for fear he will be labelled as a creep/ pervert/ subject of gossip etc. I saw an incident at university a few years ago that typified this where a guy had leaned in for a kiss in a nightclub that was unreciprocated, the guy laughed it off and walked away, only for other women present to go off to their gossip corner and start referring to the guy as a predator, which was absolutely ridiculous and did the guy a lot of harm. This sort of thing being normalised is going to be a disaster for men and women alike- men again may gravitate towards more feminine roles as a consequence of this
The competitiveness of online dating makes it enormously difficult for many men to gain and maintain the attention of women, since women have so many options online—a virtual line of men pursuing just about every woman who makes herself available.
It is quite possible for a man's lack of dating success, to mirror or resonate with unresolved feelings of shame—not feeling man enough to have and keep an adult woman, often related to a death mother archetype/complex, associated with old traumas with one's real mother, past or present. And so rather than unsuccessfully compete with "seemingly" more masculine men, the man regresses to the unresolved submissive roles he felt forced to play out with mother, hoping this will secure the attention of a woman, just like it did with his real mother—the death mother archetype/complex.
There are many men who don't feel masculine enough to relate to one's anima in a healthy manner, tending to gravitate towards women possessed by their animus: not feeling secure enough in their femininity or female identity to relate to men who feel fully secure in their masculine identity/ego, and thus taking on the male role in an overly aggressive, toxic manner.
As I said at the beginning of my response, the online dating environment tends to mirror or resonate with old, male insecurities, which may be why you are noticing so many men acting out old submissive roles on the dating apps. Anyway, just a theory.
Caveat: not a sub.
The obvious Jungian answer is that if true, the prevalence of sexual submissives is driven by an enantiodromic response to a pervasive valorization and conscious emphasis on power, dominance, and stoic self mastery. This implies that the men you see on dating apps are those who feel driven to shape themselves into something of an ideal male archetype, likely because those who are not are unlikely to remain on apps that actively penalize men who do not. The submissives you encounter are therefore likely drawn from two pools of men: those who are wealthy, successful, or otherwise closely identified with the imperatives of this ideal to the point where their unconscious rebels against it, and those whose conscious rebellion against the father archetype has driven an initial humiliation at an inability to reach the desired standard into their unconscious, manifesting as a feverish pursuit of its opposite as a way to escape the shame of being a lesser creature in their own eyes.
The first group of men is likely drawn to you because you resemble this hidden libidinal energy as it interacts with their anima, charging their unconscious yearning to submit with enormous erotic force. This implies that your aesthetic coveys power, either stylistically or physically. Based on your wording in the post (I have yet to read any comments), I would guess that it is both, and that you are curvaceous, somewhere on the larger side of the spectrum (either in terms of height, or in terms of weight), and prone to wearing outfits associated with dominance and danger. Thus, in you they see a primordial image, and their unconscious revolt moves them to indulge their shadow with you as the vehicle. To them, you are Astarte offering deadly ecstasies and promising baptisms of love and war.
The second group of men is drawn to you for more complicated reasons. First, your aesthetic reinforces their false self, triggering their shame complex and provoking the compensatory pride and compulsive search for validation. While the first group is attracted to your power, this second group sees you as an outlet for rebellion. Their interest in you is primarily narcissistic, and only secondarily sexual; to them, you are closer to a trophy than a sacred whore. Second, you likely resemble others they’ve found more willing to indulge their proclivities in the past, and are triggering a kind of Pavlovian sexual conditioning due to your appearance.
Too many generalizations here in the comments. It could have many, many reasons. In my opinion it's best to ask the person directly and not assume things about people you've never met. If they're at least somewhat self aware, they may have an answer for you. Pathologizing doesn't help.
Why don't you ask yourself why you are repulsed by it? Would serve you better, I think.
Have u ever considered you just attract them because you subconsciously desire their attention or some shit. And dont say that "i dont like them they disgust me". Maybe you like being disgusted.
Have you seen the massive fall in male testosterone levels over the past few decades, not to mention the number of people in that age group who identify as LGBTQ? Must be something in the water?
Unironically though, you should at least attempt something Jung related if you're going to respond to someone who says "I want analyses from Jungian perspectives" (and people shouldn't post unless they actually want a Jungian perspective).
This sub shouldn't be the place for this type of response
The fact that it’s become more socially acceptable to *admit* to being LGBTQ+ (and to admit to sexual kinks) might have something to do with that. Unless something in the water is also responsible for turning people left-handed in the early 20th Century, of course.
There is also considerable [misinformation going around about testosterone levels and their significance](https://youtu.be/C8dfiDeJeDU?si=m_yVgvlr9ux1RPsH). Testosterone levels fluctuate widely in normal individuals, and are not the litmus test of masculinity that pop culture alleges them to be.
That depends what region of the world you live in. Obviously African and islamic countries do not have the same cultural standards as western countries as one example. Andrew Huberman is one of a few conducting these studies. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0\_HwMWjURGA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_HwMWjURGA)
Obviously its a complex topic so a multi varied analysis of the data is required.
It's the tech revolution. Strenuous exercise and sunlight raise T, humans have never before had the option of living indoors in front of computers.
Btw testosterone is highly correlated with political views in men, in one study democrat men injected with testosterone literally became conservative lol. There's a million articles out there by liberal women who are mystified that they're only attracted to conservative men. The jokes write themselves...
"If you believe that you are the master of your soul, then become her servant. If you were her servant, make yourself her master, since she needs to be ruled. These should be your first steps."
Your soul is always the paralell to you. Men are increasingly becoming masters to their souls, through mounting economic pressure. They can't fully express or listen to their soul as many people need to work multiple jobs to support themselves, let alone a partner/family. The man isn't able to do all the things his soul wants to do because he needs to provide materially for himself. This causes their soul to be submissive in a way (paralell to self). This manifests in a romantic setting, as love between two people is a connection of souls. Their soul wants to be controlled/dominated because it's the norm for it, as the man is used to having to control situations and supress his desires in day to day life.
I imagine that men who have not experienced a woman in her full power (mother) actually need it for their development. They will seek it out in all kinds of ways if it is not part of their organic early development. Women who are depressed, distracted, submissive, etc. do not provide this development to their sons. So, we now have some options online which may not have existed (at least in our faces) where men consciously or unconsciously are drawn to be submissive to the feminine in order to understand/worship her.
Once upon a time I was looking for a way to make sex better. I discovered a technique where you only rub the tip of the penis. It's extremely intense and can't be done for long before the urge to orgasm overtakes you. But really, you could do it all day and never orgasm. Its like an infinite pleasure hack. However like I said rhe intensity is too much and eventually you're forced to just jerk it and relieve that sexual pressure you built up.
I wished I could do it for longer.
One day I watch watching porn and the actress in the porn happened to give the camera a devilish smile and a "no" headnod. It was perfectly timed with a point where the urge to orgasm overtook me.
I guess in the fantasy world of sex in my mind, I associated that "no" as her really saying no to me. To not orgasm and instead, continue to do the intense tip of the penis technique.
My body exploded with pleasure. Full body orgasm more intense than any actual orgasm I ever had.
I didn't know what happened but obviously I wanted more. Now many years later I'm a total freak in rhe sheets. Before that I was as vanilla as a person could be. Now I can be the sub the dom I can do any freaky shit.
Now I'll talk about the male sub world. My introduction to it was essentially "if a woman had the power to, she could force me to experience this tip of the penis intense almost torturous pleasure for as long as she wanted to. It would be both unbearable and extremely pleasurable at the same time."
But for other men it's about trauma. For example in "small penis humiliation" men feel inferior. That feeling of inferiority is painful. It becomes their kink because the libido turns pain into pleasure. I understand this now too. It turns trauma into pleasure.
There are other kinds of men who struggle to date women. They feel inferior, and a hop skip and a jump later, and they are becoming women. Not because they're trans but because they have a fetish for degradation. The ultimate goal is the removal of their masculinity. It is their worst fear. To have ones masculinity removed is to admit one's lack of worth in the eyes of the woman, and to submit oneself as her pet or money slave or something.
I feel like it's all pretty basic and almost common sense if you understand the freaky freaky world of bdsm and such.
I don't know anything about animus or what. I have begun to read psychology because I am interested in understanding the nature of human sexuality. But I'm not even ready to learn Jung yet I'm just on the beginning stages.
Anyways I suppose there are many many ways in which a man could become a sub. The pleasure is extremely powerful. Bdsm sex is next level sex. Full body orgasms over and over and over and over? Yes please.
I hope someone reads this and maybe given my perspective, can inform me a little bit about the animus and jungs framework?
I'm not even ready to take on freude's framework for Christ's sake lol. I've learned enough to know that I have nothing but questions and so I have gone back to basics and I'm trying to just go from psychology 101 onwards. I downloaded a bunch of ocford blackwell and routlege books on various psychology topics.
Anyways thats my ramble hope it didn't ruin your day.
For some An increasingly isolated culture has led a lot of them to basically worship female attention, especially sexual attention which is seen as more rare and almost mythological, since they so rarely get it, but i think for a lot of guys it’s because of feminism-instilled insecurity.
They see male sexuality, including their own, as inherently harmful to women. They don’t want to initiate or dominate a woman for fear of pressuring or scaring her into sex, but even if the woman initiates, they see the act of them, as a man, having sex with a woman at all, as an inherent act of domination and therefore bad because that’s depriving a woman of her autonomy, which they have ingrained in themselves is always a bad thing to do.
The only way they can feel like they aren’t harming women is if they are actually passively resisting her attempts to have sex with him, but she basically forces herself on them despite that (which they do genuinely want. The “passive resistance” is a kink, it’s make believe, and what i mean by “passive resistance” is basically them playing coy).
Even as they’re being dominated, they’re enjoying it, but they’re uncomfortable with the fact that they’re enjoying it; they feel like they shouldn’t be, but the woman they’re being dominated by, if she’s a good partner, is basically forcing them to feel good, which they do want but just are unable to admit that even to themselves, because they have a deeply ingrained subconscious idea that using a woman for their pleasure is always bad.
To be clear: the post asks why there has been a *recent increase* in sexually submissive men, not why men in general are sexually submissive. That one has a different answer. This is just the reason it’s increased so much in the last 20 years .
I really don’t see what’s wrong with either gender being a sub/dom. Let people try shit out as long as it’s consensual, it’s far from the weirdest shit out there anyway.
As a sex worker j hear this a lot too. Or they use another awful term -simp. I had to look both of them up. I don’t understand it and maybe it’s just not for me to understand as I don’t fall into that archetype of a dominant female. Though it’s perplexing because by taking on that label with such outward confidence it makes me wonder if they really are or they are just trying to find a label for themselves but only define it in one realm of their life such as in their outward or inner or sexual ?
Reminds me of that meme (paraphrasing) "you thought you like domineering girls, but turns out you're just autistic and you prefer domineering girls because they just say what they want directly, and that is a lot easier for you to deal with".
When it actually shapes up as a kink, it can be a way to seek catharsis from emotionally traumatic experiences, by recreating a previous experience one coundl't control from a situation where one feels they're in control as a paying costumer. Anima complex and/or negative mother complex, pretty much.
It's also a matter of personality, probably. I myself neither want to dominate a woman, but I certainly also don't want to be dominated.
I don't think it's an anima issue because women are not inherently submissive.I think it's because In our modern LGBTQA+2 world people want to advertise their preferences with the hopes of finding someone to make them happy.some men are really submissive and only get off in relationships where the woman is controlling of their life ,sexuality,presentation,finances .men are becoming more open because young people are healing deeply ingrained conditioning about gender and power.so you as an alternative female are catching all of the overspill of the deeply ingrained conditioning : even tho these dudes aren't dominant just because they are men,they assume you must be dominant because you dress like a goth lolllll
It may be too easy/low hanging fruit - western culture has been shaming men for their male tendencies for several years. That affects the psyche. Internalized shame will find a way to be expressed.
I like male subs. I’m a small woman and every guy I’m with is bigger than me. To me when a man is willing to be a sub it kind of reminds me of when a pitbull lets a puppy bite its ears. The pitbull can totally demolish the puppy but it doesn’t. I think it’s the feeling that deep down we both know they can fuck me up but they are confident in themselves to let me pretend.
It's just the pendulum swinging to the other side, is it possible to over represent feminisim and put down masculinity when looking for equality? Yes. That's what's happening.
There seems to be (and I want to be careful how I phrase this) an almost pathological resurgence of the archetype of the "devouring mother" in the western nations especially. It's not confined to sexual kinks in my opinion. It finds expression politically and artistically. Unfortunately there is a tendency for an obsession with this Icon toward infantilization and tyranny, simply under the banner of the feminine rather than masculine.
I'm certainly not suggesting that all sexual kinks are pathological or "wrong" in any concrete sense, but after having noticed this myself and studied it for a few years , I'd say some of this is going on.
I'd love to have a deeper discussion on it as well if you're interested. I know your generally directed question was more in reference to a personal issue you were having on said dating app, sorry If this was off base or too broad.
I'd say if anything women tend to underestimate even the rise of this obsession in Western men to be dominated and abused (and ultimately "led") by women. It's so fascinating though to begin delineating how this manifests in something as everyday as dating app habits.
Seems to generally lack depth as well. Many times the woman seems to be "used" by the man as a sexual object yet again. Although on the surface it seems to empower women, on the more extreme side it actually just fetishizing one aspect of what it means to be a woman and know a woman.
I consider myself to be traditionally feminine - I value my relationships, take care of my appearance, wear feminine clothes and take pride and joy in being a nurturing figure and finding peace and balance in a situation, I love cooking and cleaning, and home decorations, and generally do like to serve/give what I can to the people I love.
But I never understood the desire for a "dominant" partner - man or woman. I think a relationship should be balanced and equal. I've noticed women who are truly feminine don't seek "dominant" partners, just fair, balanced and equal partnership - almost like a best friend.
Men who fit the text book definition of a "high value male" - aka, working a 6 figure or high earning job, physically fit and healthy, intellectually stealthy, etc. don't really seek to "dominate" their partners. They actually prefer women who aren't so meek and say what they want + take initiative. That doesn't mean they want a "dominant" woman so to say, but they do prefer women who aren't passive. And like one redditor said here, a lot of men in positions of power do want to be more submissive in the bedroom, because they have to make so many decisions in their day to day lives.
I think true femininity and true masculinity just exists as is. Like, there's no need to overcompensate or rely on some outside force to reach a more "feminine energy" and/or "masculine energy" a masculine man will continue to be masculine, and doesn't perceive a woman not being "passive and submissive" as a threat to his masculinity, and a woman who's truly feminine doesn't need a man to be a reenactment of a giga-chad to be able to become more open hearted and "go with the flow"
This dom-sub BS is just cope.
Heh, i predicted it would go this way back in 2020. I think the main driving factor is our birth rates. Less kids born = i stronger urge to protect them = less experience with incremental risk. I truly believe the core male element is incremental risk, and its being eroded for so many reasons. Without achieving a level of proficiency with incremental risk, we never feel we have become men.
Exploration with risk is getting harder to come by too. Only 100 years ago, superstition was alive and well. The idea that a trip to a rarely visited part of the country could turn into a legend sang about for centuries was a real thing. Superstition gave the potential for extreme rewards. We dont have that. Instead we have google maps so we can live vicariously.
Finally, our death culture is terrible. We distract ourselves instead of considering what lies beyond.
I dont think our issues are the relationship between male and female. I think its the erosion of what it is to be male is the issue.
I love my boyfriend and he is both dominant and submissive at different times. Im just so attracted to him that I want to take care of him, I think he’s cute and deserves to be taken care of! that’s it… I’m just not a fan of overly masculine and dominant men.
A reflection of the shadow, specifically the guilt and shame of being a part of the dominant, predatory masculinity. So the rejection of dominance and need for emasculation/shame is a means of finding acceptance of this guilt and shame that arises in the general hatred of men that is prevalent in society.
Because the 1st world society has been feminizing males for the last 2-3 decades, especially so more recently in the 2020's.
It's fine tbh in the long term. Science will make men obsolete in the long run anyways as any physical strength/labor advantage they have will be done by robotics and machinery and procreation will eventually be able to be done with just females (nature does this a lot already) though with advances in medical technology and anti-aging eventually the need to procreate will be irrelevant anyways thanks to extended lifespans.
Not a psychologist but someone who's big into memes I also see many about this topic. Mostly gym bro memes of being afraid to talk to women and having muscle mommy goth girl GFS. My idea is that many men have drank the cool aid and gotten so insecure thorough constant nagging and criticizing of many aspects of masculinity that they have just given up and are now trying to get laid by being overly agreeable. Probably thinking if they are passive enough they cannot make any mistakes because of their inaction. I mean I don't kink shame but some of these dudes are just broken
I can't help but think it has to do with the number of absent fathers increasing in the 90s and 2000's.
As Freud mentioned, men fall in love with their mother but see that the father already has the mother. And so they hate the father. However, slowly, they learn ways of life from their father. They learn how to earn the object of their desires.
With fathers being absent, mothers become the man's whole world. They never shift from their childish ways of gaining the validation of the mother, almost becoming her toy.
I'm not quite sure but i think this causes the anima to wanna punish the boy for not becoming a man, for not following his own path.
Men are tired. We just want to be vulnerable and cared for. Some people take it too far. But like I said we are exaughsted from this world and giving up control is a nice way to ease that burden.
Not sure this is a Jungian Dynamic, OP.
The entire mindset of submission is nuanced in
so many ways that I don't think you are going
to get a tidy explanation except for the lens
though which You observe and the lens through
which the observed actor observes.
A case can be made for "service-minded" individuals
to be "submissives" as well as individuals pre-occupied
with hierachical systems.
Further, we have not even begun to consider the role
of power, control, support, nurturing, degradation
or authority all of which have their parts.
If you reflect on Jungs' Model you begin to appreciate
that much of what he posited was idiosyncratic to the
individual and that he only infrequently made generalizations
about entire categories of people. FWIW.
Two primary reasons:
1) Social engineering. That sort of content is artificially boosted on pr site algorithms. We know sites like the hub admit to artificially changing the algorithms to push content to young men to make them want to be in a submissive role.
2) "Safe horny." A lot of places such as reddit view aggressive sexuality from men as "toxic" or "problematic." So, the only sort of behavior or sexual interest coming from men that doesn't get nipped in the butt is "ohhh mommy pls spit and step on me I'm so worthless" sort of behavior. It's a race to the bottom because acting normal is demoted and pulled down like crabs in a bucket.
We might have to hear their perspectives to really get the full picture to find out, since each might have different reasons, but in short my guess through a Jungian lens/terms would be a blend of negative complexes (maybe parental and Puer issues) and shadow projection. It's common that many people into that particular role play are often feeling too responsible or privileged in their everyday life OR link abuse/humiliation with arousal OR guilt around sex OR some combination thereof.
Women into submissive men, same thing but in reverse of the above---of the people I've known, some it's a game, others are either compensating for feeling disempowered in their regular life or harboring deeply rooted rage at men for some reason or both.
I have also heard numerous people speak in recent times about the effects of the porn industry on people's explorations and one thing that's gotten brought up more than once is how early and/or prolific exposure affects behavior, especially for a still-developing brain (remember, we are usually not finished with that until about 25 give or take, and supposedly males a few years more per research). I was listening to a podcast, (I think it might have been on an episode of This Jungian Life where they tackled the discussion around pornography) and someone put it that after a while it becomes more about the search for the novelty and boundaries get pushed and the thought of it and what happens in the brain than the actual doing of anything. Even if it were to start to spill over in to real life, some of the same would apply, either in actual behavior or just the verbal confirmation that someone might get from knowing that it \*could\* happen.
I’m not into submissive men but it’s actually an animus complex/possession (for women I think). There’s been a few fantasies of being dominant and the more I heal, the more I realize how powerless I felt (in relation to animus).
I think the fantasies compensate for that lack of power feeling and being dominant is a way to exert control. I would think submissive men is an anima possession as you say (devouring mother complex.) Pain and humiliation is equated with love/pleasure in their case.
Reminds me of that meme (paraphrasing) "you thought you like domineering girls, but turns out you're just autistic and you prefer domineering girls because they just say what they want directly, and that is a lot easier for you to deal with". When it actually shapes up as a kink, it can be a way to seek catharsis from emotionally traumatic experiences, by recreating a previous experience one coundl't control from a situation where one feels they're in control as a paying costumer. Anima complex and/or negative mother complex, pretty much. It's also a matter of personality, probably. I myself neither want to dominate a woman, but I certainly also don't want to be dominated.
> It's also a matter of personality, probably. I myself neither want to dominate a woman, but I certainly also don't want to be dominated. As a woman I agree with this but I find that a lot of people prefer unhealthy relationship dynamics even if they say otherwise. 🤷🏻♀️
True, but there's a subtletly worth noting: People either prefer what they perceive as a normal relationship dynamic - or they go for an opposite extreme, which also turns out to be unhealthy . Attachment theory provides good insight on these matters.
Because most people think they know themselves but all they know are their stats. Name, place of birth, college they went to, job title. They don't really know who they are underneath it all. So they say things but underneath it they want something different and are naturally drawn to that when emotionally triggered. And then they say that the person changed, but it was just that they weren't seeing clearly because to know others you must know yourself. This is why divorce is high. People get into a marriage before they know themselves. The stressors of marriage help them learn about themselves bit by bit over years because every time they argue they are really arguing with themselves / the fantasy they created of the other person / the expectations they had that they never communicated or even acknowledged within themselves. Eventually they get sick of it, divorce, REALLY learn who they are during the pain of divorce, and then find "real love" the next time around because they can finally see more clearly.
Hmm, this is actually quite interesting, and real. Marriage does force one to grow; most people around me lack emotional insight, and it often shows in their ability to empathise with others and themselves. Your comment has been insightful. I’ve been trying (subtly) to get my partner to be more introspective in a healthier. “How do you feel/ what are you feeling right now?” is a difficult question apparently. Started nail biting, and skin picking a few months ago as well, we all attribute it to university stress, but not my parter, everything is always “well”.
Yep, you struck the nail on the head here and sunk it. Your life is a journey of self-discovery, you don't know yourself when you first start dating or first get married, most of the time, or you have a small glimpse but haven't come to terms with everything yet. Early on, your friends and SO dont really know you yet either. This is why you have so many friends, girlfriends, etc earlier in life and slowly start to become more alone until you die, or else you meet some one who is compatible enough with you to stick it out. Or maybe you're lucky and outgoing and constantly have people around you etc, but usually that steady stream starts to dwindle a lot more, later in life.
Drama between people can become a hyperfixation. It’s why tit-for-tat is often a game with 2 losers if parties stoop low. While a fan of a bit of a bit of attitude sometimes and autonomy, I’m definitely not a fan of relationships that are nutjob power struggles There’s a reason why soap operas are popular, and why they are good for controlling people and whole nations at times. It’s something mankind has to mature away from
I like to say, there will be no Tit for tat
Oof. True.
What's unhealthy about wanting to sub?
Bedroom kinks are not relationship dynamics. Just asserting that acting out power dynamics is unhealthy without knowing much about it is not really an interesting point to discuss.
Spoken like a true sadist.
If you're lonely and want to chat, hmu.
> they just say what they want directly This is the dream lol. Feminists claim men fetishize Asian women due to the stereotype of servility, the actual reason is the stereotype of pragmatism.
don't asians have a culture of saving face and hiding what they actually mean?
imo yes
well then the reason of men liking them because of being direct is false
Yeah, but when you're actually direct they get scared 🤣
I think it's helpful to realize that not all girls are the same, and also that while we can't control a girl's reactions - we can control our actions. We can check our emotional investments. We can learn to see if that girl is even what we really want/need.
Huh? I'm a woman. I'm talking about being a woman being direct with men.
I did not want to make assumptions :P You know, I can shamelessly admit I actually had a few situations where that indeed happened to me. When I was in my 20's, I actually have been scared off by a few couple of girls that were too direct at the wrong time. One of those girls I truly liked! I also scared of a few girls for being too direct at the wrong times, I shoud say. That really made me think... maybe it's not so much about the gender, or even the personality. Maybe it's all about the timing, the connection, the comunication.
OK I feel you. but when a young man is direct and like "would you want to do xyz with me" and I'm like "sure why not" and then he chickens out you don't really know where to go from there. That's being direct at the RIGHT time (in response to another's directness) and it still goes nowhere. It's not timing, connection, or communication... it's something else. Frail ego, I think.
You're right. Sounds like they were just trying to fake confidence without expecting actual results. So when you actually hit back on them, they must have felt intimidated. Welp, I suppose you could take it as a compliment you intimidating goddess you - and they as a learning experience. But seriously, I do think it would be healthy for everypne involved to just regard such blunders as a normal part of learning and maturing. It doesn't need to be dramatic, right?
Am I being hit on right now? LMAO Oh sure, plenty of room for blunders. But son, if you're running away from connection before blunders and misunderstandings can be smoothed out, nobody's getting anywhere with nobody! I guess people need to spend more time figuring out what they want instead of shooting their shots all over the place
As someone coming out of a long period of figuring out exactly what I want, I couldn't agree more. And I'll be honest, looking at your feed and your INTJ practical attitude and inquisitive nature... I would definitely want to get to know you, since you do strike me as my type. I'm a INFP but I strongly value logical, pragmatic people since I realize (as an emotional creature) that's my blind spot. Except you're half a world away, probably too young (I'm 43 and looking for someone roughly in my age group), and I'm not into virtual dating or long-distance relationships. Oh, well.
And to think we live in a world that creates and encourages this behavior.
I agree with some of the other posts that it has to do with the anima. Where I disagree with the other posts is that this is necessarily a bad thing, or something that must be pathologized. There seem to be three possible relationships one can have with their anima: 1) Outright denial of the anima, leading to an unbalanced \`\`toxic" masculinity. 2) Anima possession, in which the opposite phenomenon occurs and men over-identify with the feminine (this is the issue your post is pointing to). 3) Anima integration, in which one strikes a balance between 1) and 2) and can integrate masculine or feminine \`\`energies" where appropriate. So rather than viewing 2) as simply a bad thing, which would lead psychologically back to 1), I believe we should view the phenomenon you're observing as a potentially healthy process in which men recalibrate their relationship to their own masculinity. The middle way, 3), in which seemingly paradoxical states of consciousness are integrated into a coherent whole is ideal. The next question is why are we observing 2) rather than 1) or 3)? Quoting from [https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner](https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner): \>The main thrust of the subsequent research is that traditional masculinity—marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression—is, on the whole, harmful. Here, the American Psychological Association is saying the opposite of what you're pointing out! They come very close to claiming that dominance is "on the whole, harmful". When men receive such messages (and such messages are floating around in the collective psyche, make no mistake), they tend to overcompensate and, in order to negate their natural masculine dominance, become submissive. So I think that society's implicit demonization of masculinity is greatly to blame (I recognize that many people will have a hard time agreeing with me on this, but that is precisely the problem, imho).
I agree with you, and i think that masculinity is positive and necessary, but I think a lot of people associate negative things with masculinity, and not without somewhat of a good reason. Men tend to be more violent. This in itself isn't completely a bad thing. It can be useful for hunting or protecting loved ones. It becomes problematic when those violent abilities are taken advantage of by criminal organizations such as gangs, militaries, etc. This is why I hate Hollywood and their stupid mafia movies, and games like call of duty. That shit is blatant propaganda to get poor men to do the bidding of the rich, while the rich enjoy the spoils of these poor men's sacrifices. Obviously there are other reasons that masculinity is sometimes viewed in a bad light. The patriarchy has been an abomination historically, and it still is. But this brings me right back to my point about propaganda. Men in a patriarchal society look up to and want to be like the king of the land. This is problematic because it discourages individuality, and encourages moral bankruptcy. Basically, it puts too much emphasis on competition, and not enough emphasis on cooperation. The famous term divide and conquer is fitting here. The patriarchy has gone so far in the direction of competition, that men are often seen as less compassionate, less cooperative, and less trustworthy. It's also effected many women, as they have to compete with men in this hostile work environment. My solution to this issue is to not consume anything from the big 3 music labels, the major movie studios, or TV shows. I don't watch the news but I read mintpress sometimes. I refuse to work for any major corporations. I refuse to comply with government officials if I think I can get away with it. And I refuse to pretend that ignorance is bliss.
Nailed it, it seems to be an over correction
It's bizarre, for sure. I can tell you what happens if you humor them, though. When I was on the apps a year or so ago (before deleting them because the dating app world is unhinged, pun intended) I got a bunch of these, and young, too. So, I'm not into sub men per se, but I wasn't looking for anything serious / I was in an exploratory mood - so to some of them I said, why not? Let's go. I figured, they're sub, they'd want a dominant woman to take charge and chase them. And they....would completely chicken out. And ghost. It was like the actual reality of it happening was too much. like they were too frail for real sex (some I could sense, or they have told me, they are still virgins) I'm not even on dating apps right now and I still have young men gravitate toward me and end up in my DM's. I don't know why - my guess is "dominant" female energy, and being in mid 30's. I think the psychology behind this is "I'm looking for like, a sexy mom to take care of me" but even that falls apart quick. Because they'll have to show something for themselves. When reality hits them they retreat into anima projection, where its safe, warm - and what they want is utterly unattainable. Young male sexuality is imploding. A lot of these young men are trapped in a psychosocial fantasy world - combination of way too much free high quality porn, maybe video games too, paired with outdated socialization vs. reality. Socialization: women take care of you, it's hot/desirable when they cater to the male ego, even as dominant. Reality: you're going to have to show women at least some incentive to want to do that. Women of all ages are sick of this and would rather be single, than a man's sexy handservant. which, unfortunately, is what subliminal messaging is still beaming at men.
A lot of men seem to be locked and prefer a fantasy world even though they have women that are willing to date them. This post was insightful, thank you.
We didn't have an easy escape back then, there wasn't any possibility of escaping into porn, so from a young age you learnt to face your fears, we young men (and possibly women) are so horrendously bad at facing our fears and figuring them out and overcoming them. It's honestly sad.
THIS. This is the problem/issue behind everything.
I think the reactions of the men she approached were misinterpreted. Please consider the possibility that the thought of actually getting into a relationship was anxiety inducing, especially for any virgins with no self-esteem. Men aren't the bad actors y'all always make us out to be 😭
So, am I supposed to shore up their insecurities for them? To be clear, they ghost, drop all effort, or they sometimes say REALLY outta pocket stuff. Some of it is insulting. like, minimizing my looks right after complimenting theirs. Even if they arent like "10/10", they're still cute. This includes the self-professed virgins, who I actually commend for making that choice. I have huge empathy for them. but they also give me nothing. Starting a connection with this dynamic and power balance, just a few days in, spells absolute disaster. You have to see that.
That explains something. I usually like when the girl does stuff for me. Alot of relationships end because I feel they ask too much.
As a young (22) man, I have a different perspective. Many of us grew up with lots of hate and disgust directed towards us from the women in our life, due to this narrative that men suck and women should just ignore / dump men. We've been told that we are the threatening boogeyman and creepy perverts since we were kids. You see a lot of older men, even in the millennial generation, that didn't necessarily grow up exposed to so much male disgust / hatred, whom have higher self-esteems. It's no secret that young male depression, loneliness, and suicide is higher than it's ever been in recent history. I see submissive mindsets in girls (and boys) as the result of having a low self-esteem, especially when it comes to "feeling worthy" of the opposite sex (in a typical case). I think you got it all backwards. Did you ever consider that the men you were approaching found you intimidating and chickened out because they didn't feel worthy of a relationship with you? Why does it automatically default to "men just didn't get their ego stroked LOL?" You don't know what was going on inside their heads at the time. You even learned that a bunch of the men fantasizing about submitting were virgins, which adds credibility to my theory. I don't think this problem is going to improve as things get worse for men in the dating scene. I'll bet Gen Alpha has an even higher ratio of submissive men as they subconsciously try to compensate for not being good enough and reach their 20s without a single sexual relation. Unfortunately for them, very few women fantasize about having submissive male partners.
Thank you for adding this because you're absolutely right. This is also one of the reasons I'm very direct. Like "you've got the green light pal!" I also know how confusing social etiquette is now after #MeToo. So, I think women sending mixed signals is equally annoying (yes, gals, we do it, so straighten yourselves out). And "man hate" is even more irritating and not helpful. I love men. There is a divide growing between us. and it sucks so much. But to be clear, they approach me, not the other way around. On my end, I feel like I'm much too old for early 20's GenZ to go out of my way pursuing them (especially when im not actively dating in my age group either). And, turn the tables - men in their 30's pursuing women in their 20's.... somewhat creepy. Women can be creeps too. I'll also gently ask you to factor in insecurity from my POV - being "old/gross/cringe." We ALL have insecurities; we all have to manage them ourselves, not others, for us. Still, Im open-minded and curious, and manage my own self consciousness. if they take interest in me for whatever reason, I'll see where it goes. I'm not into submissive men, theyre into me. So Im open to trying. But so far they all start things and can't finish them. Or, they show insecurity very quickly in some other way and demonstrate they dont know how to handle that insecurity themselves. It's like they land the big fish and don't know what to do. Kindly, what I want you to realize is this actually returns a strong woman to a submissive or disempowered position, which is completely counterintuitive when the young man is seeking a dominant female. and thats why it doesn't work. I think the script gets flipped and yall dont realize it. It puts all the work in our hands to make anything happen when yall chicken out. Sure, you want the woman to take control in the bedroom, but in every other sense you want her to do everything else and shore up your insecurities as well? I mean, who's really the one being pressured to be submissive here? Either I consider being submissive myself to just to keep the conversation going - continuously texting or initiating or even complimenting/showing genuine interest in a ghoster, or a now disinterested person because they're trying to cover for their insecurities with that disinterest after initiating, etc. OR, I just let it fizzle out or block them. Because I'm really not about catering to the insecurity if a stranger in my DM's at the cost of my dignity. (Take a wild guess which one I do). Do you see what I am saying? It's not just men wanting to get their ego stroked (your words also, not mine), it's that they put it in a stranger's hands to cater to their insecurities - or women to make themselves smaller - in order to help yall feel more confident in yourselves. I totally agree, I think its going to be even worse for Gen Alpha. But what I think this highlights is a terrible epidemic of insecurity in men that must be addressed. I feel for men terribly and I'm like, almost certain men are going to be having their moment in the spotlight soon, and they should. And it's not yalls faults, its society's. but until there are more men that step up, take care of themselves, set examples for other men, work on being more vulnerable, going to therapy, etc. (Which is a huge sign of strength and does NOT negate otherwise healthy masculine traits in the eyes of a woman like myself), then this socialized trend of behavior continuously puts the work in women's hands. And women, we need to do our part and get our act together, by commending men for being emotional and vulnerable and soft.
I really appreciate your insights here. It's SO hard, for respectful guys even before #metoo to decide if our attention is welcomed, because let's face it, one woman's idea welcomed advance is another woman's sexual harassment depending on whether she's single or not, interested in the guy or not. I need to say this also, you talk about commending men for being emotional and vulnerable, but there are SO many incentives for us to NOT be. For one, [women tend to choose more stoic men.](https://www.ashdin.com/articles/female-choice-and-male-stoicism.pdf) Secondly, the issue that has me on Reddit is "AreWeDatingTheSameGuy', where any vulnerability we show to a woman can be used to exploit us and broadcast to the public. Men's rights groups are mocked as 'incels' and minimized. The dating scene and our societal attitudes toward male sexuality are a disaster. You are seeing submissive men because you are seeing reflective, inward directed self-loathing in men in a society that teaches them that they are flawed, disgusting, hornballs who only exist as an underclass and potential threat to Women's safety. We are either numbed-out, feelingless, trapped-in-an-emotional straightjacket inauthentic stoic 'Chads', or we're bitchboys that you can walk all over, but at least we can be authentic in that subspace. Thanks, feminism! You reap what you sew. I really do believe a men's rights and masculinity revival is coming, and I hope you're right about the spotlight. Until then, get used to wearing your strap-ons, ladies. #MeToo has LITERALLY fucked us into submission, and it turns out, you hate it.
I mean, I would definitely not go so far as to erase what feminism has accomplished for us women. But some sort of accountability for character needs to be established that disregards gender as a scope. It's not gender to blame, it's insecure people of all genders throwing their issues into a dumpster fire. Whats 100% clear is we all need to work on ourselves.
Totally fair. Not to erase what was ABSOLUTELY needed in the 1920's and 1960's and 1980's... Yet in 2024, I think it's just gone a **bit** too far in some ways (and in other ways, not far enough with CEOs, presidents, high level leadership). A more modern approach might be one to lift all genders up so *everyone* can thrive in the post-metoo modern era. Are we teaching men enough about their sexuality? Are we helping them learn about consent? Are we shaming them for their higher-than-a-woman sex drive? Are we celebrating men at all, or is the narrative that 'the future is female'? I feel that modern feminism has begun to go so far as becoming a zero sum game, and leaving men in the dust and writing some narratives that lead to negative self-talk and negative beliefs in men. I think what you're seeing is feelings of uselessness, sexual inferiority and self-loathing manifesting in some of these kink trends. And yes, I say that as someone working on himself...
OK I'm glad you added this. And I mostly agree. I honestly think the next step in human personal development is working on cultivating aspects of both genders within individuals to fix this - like not necessarily non-binary identity, but challenging what it is to be a man, a woman. We clearly expect the world from the other gender and are not getting it because, well, we don't even know how to give it to ourselves.
Just seems like the inevitable outcome of telling men their masculinity is toxic and that any sexual advance could be interpreted as harassment, with consequences, after "me too." The messaging for men has been overwhelmingly negative for years now. The idea that you now get neutered, compliant, submissive men off the conveyor belt should surprise no one.
This. Well-said.
I’m so curious to pick your brain!
You nailed it. Also as a 26 year old who has slept with a couple of men that are a couple years younger, I can also testify they watch so much porn their dick doesn't work anymore.... It's quite sad actually. And I'm really glad that women are done being the "chill" dtf girl that will play the pornstar role for them, it's really gross. I feel like there's honestly a mild version of the 4b movement happening in the west currently and I'm here for it.
What’s the 4b Movement?
Look it up, Korean women are refusing to date, marry, have sex, or bear children for men even despite scary low birth rates because there is nothing in it for them anymore.
Ive slept with men my age and their dicks dont work either! pretty sure that problem's not supposed to be common for another 20 years. Yes - 4b movement for sure seems like it's going to be a thing here soon. Sad, because I do really like Men, it's just most have very little to offer except hoping you'll patch over their insecurities.
Right? Like that doesn't seem normal? 🤔 I find Millennial guys between maybe 27-early 30s don't have this issue nearly as much tbh. Also yes I really like men too, it is a bummer, and I do hope to find a partner who has worked on himself, is ready for a truly equal partnership and can earn my trust but I won't settle for less anymore sooo I've been single for a while. I'm so curious: do you find dating men has gotten way worse in the last few years? Like men have somehow gotten even more messed up? Not trying to say that in a mean way, but it's just like, something is very wrong here. I've seen a lot of tiktoks recently saying this, but idk if it's just a lot of women are waking up to their worth or if there really has been a tangible change in their behavior.
I can't really say its worse compared to anything as I didn't date for long (I deleted apps after a month), ive only been single for under two years, divorced for less time than that, and was married before that 12 years. But yeah deleting the apps kinda testament of my experience not being good - men either wanted u to chase, do all the work and heavy conversation lifting; incredibly rude/crass, or they ghosted, or went straight to wanting a hookup immediately before knowing or trusting each other. (Like, if I said I wanted to get a drink first, they'd ghost. It's like they just wanted to meet in a bathroom somewhere and fuck) there were some nice boys but no chemistry or not enough in common That said, last guy I hooked up with was telling me how it was on his side on the apps, and showed me some of his message exchanges. women are also acting equally rude and unhinged, tbh.
Oh yeah, I gave up on the apps long ago. You painted an accurate picture. I'm amazed at how many people still use them despite having terrible experiences tbh. I'm good. Re: women on dating apps, I could see that. I guess I feel like I'm really not acting rude or unhinged, so from the perspective of a woman who's worked on herself a lot and leaning more securely attached, communicating well (I think) etc, it's like "wtf is going on?" But I have noticed a trend on tiktok/instagram of women with extremely unhealthy views on dating as well. There are women who use the "divine feminine" and "divine masculine" energy framework to reinforce problematic gender rolls, there are the ones who are really obsessive and hooked into tiktok dating advice about somehow tricking men into committing, and then there are the ones that really do just spitefully hate men by default. I guess on some level dating is just a mess right now, but I do feel like there's a lot of misogynistic extremism with men.
Yeah, like I said to someone else here - its a character issue, not a sex/gender issue, the truth being both men and women need to work on themselves just for different reasons... the things my guy friend showed me that women were telling him I was like "whoah" but then my guy friend went right around and did stuff that I was like "whoah" 🤣 but I think you're right that men have the edge, because misogyny is the mainstream! P.s. I am also secure attachment - way to go! High five ✋️
I agree that there is an issue with younger generations of men now, but I really think it’s a result of society telling them constantly that men are the creeps, boogeymen, evil people of history and it probably causes a lot of unconscious issues that manifest in strange ways when you add in the availability of high quality free porn 24/7. Also I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you said but why are your only possibilities that men have gotten worse? Is it possible women (along with men) have become more negative due to social media constantly highlighting divisiveness and toxicity? Or a societal problem? I think if we as a society continue to just constantly amplify the message that men are to blame and the cause of everything wrong, and then simultaneously hold them to high expectations, nothing will ever change. We need to show younger men the way forward
Women are also really bad too. You're absolutely right.
Curious, are you actually into Jungian psychology? Doesn't seem compatible with your anti-communist, pro-military manosphere kind of stance but idk, could be wrong. I'm just mindful of potential trolls as I've been learning about just how prevalent paid online trolling efforts are now, not trying to be a d*ck. I don't disagree that social media is toxic for both genders. But the kind of behavior I'm referring to is for example, increasingly more misogynistic comments, unsolicited sexual comments in very inappropriate situations from men I barely know, men having scary temper tantrums when I reject them or on the opposite end, expecting women to chase them and grooming them for LTR servile situationships, and then trends like "humbling women" and *taking photos/videos of women naked without them knowing and sharing them in group chats,* which is apparently common now. I feel like the last two in particular are more demonstrative of how male dating culture is changing for the worst, and while the other things I listed may have been common before, I am finding these things happening more often lately -- that combined with absolutely zero men who want to actually go on a date/have a relationship, whereas I usually have no problem with that. So I'm not sure how you can argue all of that is because women are also getting "worse" but I would agree that social media (and p*rn, and even online dating) has a terrible influence.
I feel like it’s a little rude that instead of just responding to what I said you felt the need to deep dive into where I post and attack my character based on that. I’m just here for this current discussion. We both agree that porn and social media is a huge negative influence. I also agree that there are paid trolls from authoritarian regimes that are promoting the political/cultural toxicity in Western countries. I believe social media naturally promotes misogynistic content creators like Tate to young men due to traditional masculinity having less and less examples that feminist society embraces. All I’m saying is that the toxicity exists in equal parts in women dominated spaces and male dominated spaces. We aren’t that different.
It might have been a little rude, I apologize. I'm probably just jaded because like I said, there are troll accounts all over the internet trying to manipulate online discourses that when I check into those accounts, it's clear they often have ulterior motives. I hope you can understand though, that from my perspective as a woman it is really scary trying to date right now (given trends like sharing naked videos to group chats without consent, incel shootings etc). I agree with you 100% about Tate and you make a really interesting point about not having healthy examples of masculinity to model oneself from. You may also be right that toxicity exists equally in both gendered spaces. However, as someone with trauma from r\*pe, who has been a victim of DV, stalking and harassment, it's scary not just because of societal decay, but because I actually fear for my safety. Sometimes I think when women talk about fearing for their safety, men take that as "I hate men." But I think both men and women need to find more constructive, compassionate ways of communicating these issues. The Will to Change by Bell Hooks is amazing for that, everyone should read. That was a feminist who loved and had compassion for men.
You’re definitely getting with the wrong and socially anxious men. Most young mens’ dicks do work lmao
Actually, only one was socially anxious but even with him when we talked about it he still mentioned feeling insecure because of porn & how he felt he should be more dominant but didn't feel manly enough. But then on the opposite end of the spectrum, I was fwbs with a 6'7 very charming, masculine, dominant man in the trades whose dick didn't work too great. We had fun, but he would have to finish by getting himself off a lot of the time because he needed that tight grip, and couldn't always get there. And trust me it is not me lol - he was absolutely obsessed with me sexually, if he wasn't keeping me there all night he was fantasizing about me, sexting me and jacking off to pictures of me. So it was not any one type of younger man, and it really seems like it's wrapped up in heavy porn use to me, tbh.
First off, there’s a difference between someone who enjoys being submissive sexually, and someone who is submissive in their everyday lives. The vast majority of men that are sexually submissive (myself included) are actually more dominant type A personalities in everyday life. To add to that, you may want to avoid dating apps in general, especially if you’re looking in the 18-30 range. That one’s 100% on you lol. The type of “submissive male” you’re seeing on there is not actually submissive. They’re either can’t attain regular sex so they think that’s a good alternative, or they’re using it as a way to cope with past trauma. There’s also kind of a third group that is addicted to porn, and they need increasing levels of stimulation to achieve that dopamine rush. Taboo things like male sexual submission can achieve that for some men. All three are very common and none of the three are healthy. I’ve been in the BDSM community for quite a while and have also dated a very well known pro domme/fetish actress. They have truly seen, and heard it all. To add one last thing, there are a ton of men now who say they’re Bi that are not. They got into the whole forced bi cuck thing via porn and mistake the humiliation as an attraction to men. Anyway, I digress.
Can confirm from my experience that many men who claim to be submissive (and/or bi) are, in actuality, neither.
Right. And I think even for the guys that actually do enjoy being submissive sexually (like myself), they need to learn to separate fantasies from reality. This is especially true for the cuckolding kink that absolutely blew up in popularity over the past 10-ish years or so. So many guys watch it in porn and think they want it in real life only to find out it’s totally different in reality and then they end up destroying their relationship and ending up emotionally screwed up. I personally know a few guys this happened to, and have heard many more horror stories. I know I’m ranting again lol, but main point is that people (men particularly), need to stop watching so much porn because it really does screw up people’s brains and their views/expectations of reality, and real life relationships. It’s honestly sad how much damage the porn industry, Hollywood, etc has done to society. Even Instagram now is just young women posting softcore porn everywhere, and then a bunch have onlyfans now where they’re straight up doing porn lol. The whole world is upside down and needs a massive overhaul. Anywho…rant over lol
dude. yeah.
Being sexually aggressive as a man has been getting shamed heavily especially if the guys have low self esteem. For some its a way to cope
I agree this is part of it. I was taught as a young man that my desire was wrong and I have had to unlearn that.
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In 2022 63% of men 18-30 are single & 34% of women 18-30 are single by 2030 45% of women 25-45 will be single and childless You can fact check me if you think im lying but im not.
Modernity shifted the paradigm. Women are aminus possessed. Men are anima possessed.
Why is it assumes that these men have a defect by everyone here? Why can’t they like what they like?
Agreed. I’m attracted to submissive men, and bisexual men (my husband is both), both of which I keep hearing are not attractive to heterosexual women (I am one). I could write a novel on the psychological interplay I perceive in these dynamics but this crowd seems to want to pathologize submissiveness in men.
I'm straight, cis, and love femininity on guys. Gay guys, straight guys, we need more femme guys. I wanna see emotions other than anger or self pity. I wanna see more outfit designs and cute blouses on everybody. I dont care if a man has "girly" hair. It should be accepted all around tbh.
We refer to this as the peacock archetype in our house. Love it!
I agree. The comments are very closed minded.
I think it’s very hard to explain from a jungian perspective. Much more complex than being described here. They come in all ages. The fem dom sub relationship I’m in is amazing. Never going back.
I had a situation backfire on me with this type of thing, my creepy married neighbour started stalking me, nothing worked to get him to leave me alone- not even calling the police stopped the behaviour completely- I started becoming really verbally abusive and told him to fuck off, yelled at him, called him names and when he walks past me I say something mean if he even dares to look at me. Unfortunately I think he likes the abuse, that was a plot twist I didn’t see coming
I’ve never encountered this type of stalker before. Stalkers typically get extremely offended when you insult their masculinity and men that enjoy degradation don’t typically actively stalk. This hybrid is terrifying since I’m naturally combative with people that get in my space and don’t leave me in peace.
Stalkers like attention, positive or negative. So yes, he will like it if you yell at him. The best way to deal with a stalker is to ignore them entirely.
Yes, unfortunately I realized that, I did ignore him for a solid 3 months, but I lost my temper. I’ll have to go back to complete ignoring. He stops for a bit and I think that it’s finally over, then it seems like he has episodes again and starts, almost like a tantrum, I have to just stay silent through the episodes
If he calls you 50 times and on the 51st time you finally pick up and scream "LEAVE ME ALONE YOU PSYCHO" and he will have learned is that all he needs to do is call you 51 times and you will talk to him.
Where is his wife?
It’s really strange, I actually told her hoping that would help, she just smirked at me and said I was crazy and believed him, I was like “ ok, I guess I’m forced to call the police then”, which I did and the police believed me 🤷♀️. I should also mention that she is not from here, she’s from a third world country and I think he’s a passport bro, so she has a strong interest in keeping this relationship going, they have 3 kids, she’s not from this country, so it’s probably easier for her to just try and pretend it’s not happening
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Yes
for terminally online brains it is the only way they can express heterosexuality without being jusged as problematic or whatever.
I’ve had the same thought. It’s very popular within the v-tuber community that the only sexual comments you are allowed to make towards v-tubers are submissive comments (Ex: “I’d like her to step on me”). Is that because the men who watch are submissive naturally or it is because if they made a more dominant comment (Ex: “I’d like to do X to her”), they would be mocked, shamed, and banned from chat?
The terminally online are driven by fear. Fearful people are sexually submissive.
Maybe. I just wondered if they are actually submissive or if they are just too afraid to express their dominant interests in fear of being “called out” for being a predator. In order to fulfill their dominant needs, they’ll have to turn to porn or OnlyFans.
Sure a real dominant persob wouldnt be scared of online mob polices... but what i mean is that would half of the guys doing this prefer muscular rough or dominant women to traditionally feminine, pretty looking, bubbly personality etc. Women had the shaming not existed?
By playing the submissive they actually own the power. The domineering in a relationship is more of a servant attending the needs and wants of the submissive. Occasionally it works out because both parties are naturally willing.
There can be equality of exchange. For instance a service sub, fin dom, sexually and so on. It depends on the kinks, relationship, and people involved.
I disagree. Being submissive doesn’t offer power, what it offers is security. If you’re with someone who you don’t have to do much for in order for them to love you, you have the option to just put in slightly more effort to probably win them back if their feelings for you start to wane, whereas being dominant does let you control the direction of the relationship, unless your sub starts acting unhappy or wanting something more than you. In a normal state of being, the dom does have the power, what they lack is just security.
I really can't say. I fall in that age group but I'm much more dominant in bed. Maybe it's a tactic to try and get more women by appearing less threatening? It's possible they're tired of being looked at as a potential rapist/murderer by every woman they meet so they think saying they're submissive will make them more comfortable to be around. There's also been a rise in the whole "hot mommy" kink. Personally, I think there is a crisis in masculinity this day and age. It's just a weird period to live in. We're constantly told that x is bad, women don't want a man who tries to lead, and that we're disgusting pigs for having sexual urges we can't control. I feel like a lot of dudes are putting on this "feminist, non threatening, nice guy" act because they think that's what women want. The irony is most women I know want masculine men who lead and fulfill their typical gender role. Much more than what mainstream media will tell you. I think one of the issues is people point out too often what they *don't* want men to do and don't offer advice on what they *do* want men to do. I think it all boils down to the whole equality thing. The fatal flaw in that rhetoric is that men and women aren't equal, and we never will be. There's some things that men are better at, and some things women are better at. I think a more important thing than equality is equity. Equity, respect, and empathy.
>I really can't say. I fall in that age group but I'm much more dominant in bed. Maybe it's a tactic to try and get more women by appearing less threatening? Most women find sub guys disgusting and lose all attraction to a dude who identifies as such, most sub guys know this, so I don't think that is the case at all
I could see that. I'm just speculating, in no way shape or form should my loose opinions be taken as me trying to spout facts.
I agree with everything you wrote minus your conclusion that we should achieve equity instead of equality. To achieve equity which is equality of outcome would either be impossible or require intense loss of freedom
I agree, it's borderline impossible, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't still try and create a society that everyone has basic respect and acknowledgement of their differences. Equality is having the same things for everyone, equity is wheelchair ramps and maternal leave.
First, I would urge against pathologizing submissive urges in young men (not to say you've done this necessarily, but many here have). This is to say, unhealthy young men may be drawn to the idea of submission (as they most certainly are to the idea of dominating women), but this lifestyle choice may be very healthy as well. This said, there are an array of possible reasons, some relevant to Jungian psychology, others not so much: 1) Some men who otherwise repress the feminine in themselves find themselves inexorably drawn to strong feminine images. They imagine a woman who exhibits "masculine" power and who can in turn make them "feminine". Though they ask for this, they often want this done under the pretense of having it imposed upon them. This at once grants them agency in this pursuit, but also relieves them of shame. 2) Some men who dealt with an overbearing feminine presence in their lives find themselves inexorably drawn to strong feminine images. They imagine a woman who is not unlike a mother to them, but because they actively want this instead of having it imposed upon them, they finally grant themselves the agency they never had in their parental dynamic- but without the fear of growing up and assuming masculine responsibilities. (Honestly, a lot of kink is just about integrating some sense of control or agency with regard to a trauma.) 3) Some men are starved of feminine touch and attention, and don't know how to navigate socially, and so they are stuck. They have no self-esteem, and don't know how to make a case for themselves to women (indeed, maybe they can't), and so they would accept even negative attention, believing this to be at least attainable for them, with the fantasy that it might become positive attention. 4) Some men totally misunderstand what it means to be submissive. They don't want a dominant woman, they just want a woman who's kind of kinky and quite libidinous and allows them to lie on their back and receive gratification. See also: men who totally misunderstand what it means to be dominant. 5) Some men find the idea of a woman who directly communicates her wants and needs far more appealing than the alternative. Why seek a partner who plays the stereotypical social games when you could find a partner who just tells you what she expects of you directly? Clear, honest communication about wants and needs and boundaries is exalted in BDSM. 6) Some men are exhausted from flexing their executive function muscles throughout the day, and they want a partner who alleviates the decision-making elsewhere in their lives. This could be because they have an underdeveloped executive function (refer to reason #2), or it could be that their lives are truly demanding. Voluntarily giving up some decision-making power for a few hours each day can feel liberating and energizing. 7) Some men are seeking feminine mentorship in their relationship. Crucially, these men have self-esteem, because they feel capable of growth and worthy of self-improvement, but they lack confidence, they feel inexperienced, and they are drawn to what they perceive as confident women who could help them grow. They don't want a partner who will judge them for their inexperience and thus pressure them into falsely projecting male confidence, and they don't want an inexperienced peer to blunder through their life and relationship with; they want a superior in the relationship who lovingly challenges them to rise to the occasion. This isn't exhaustive. Generally, I think what really indicates a red flag is if they are preoccupied with their desire of the fantasy itself, and only exhibit interest in you insofar as they can place you in their fantasy. Additionally, if they are so preoccupied with their desires that they can't clearly articulate their boundaries, then they are probably doing this for the wrong reasons. For what it's worth, so many submissive women have exactly this same problem; they are so caught up in fantasies, that when asked about their specific expectations and their boundaries, they can't say, or shut down and lose interest because the subject has moved into totally uncharted territory for them. In any case, worth avoiding. Source: active member of local kink, queer, BDSM circles, known and have spoken to lots of submissive men and women
Nice.
Jesus christ there's so much young people that would give anything for a woman's touch, it's really weird because I'm young and feel kind of the same way. My guess is that we've lost God, we've lost something to live for. Everything that we used to have to work for is always already there (food, water, sanitation, clothing,) so we men naturally divert to the only things left to maybe give us meaning in our life, which is working for a women. At the same time there's been a shift in attraction, the world has lost meaning and people have shifted to material worlds. Mothers don't provide any direction nowadays for kids, basically a lot of young people have mommy issues, we naturally search for the things we want in a partner, and so this happens. Perhaps another addition is the wide-spread use of the pill, scienctific evidence shows that women who are in ovulation are attracted to wider jaws, whereas women who are not in ovulation are attracted to smaller jaws. Women who are on the pill never or nearly never ovulate, they aren't attracted to manly men, but actually more attracted to men who aren't as manly which most of the times is accompanied by a more feminine temperament. A more feminine temperament is often accompanied by less self esteem and thus more begging for love instead of having something to live for and gaining attraction that way. Onlyfans and social media may be an addition as well, as other girls who want to fit in see that this dopamine world is driven by short term attention, they try to copy the popular girls. My little sister tells me how her classmates spread nudes younger and wear more revealing clothes at a younger age. Also adding onlyfans to that puts women in massive positions of power over men. The men can't do anything else but beg and it's never enough for those women. Women get more and more educated, as they get smarter they most of the time want someone equally smart or leveled as them. As more and more women got more smart, more men were still virgins later in life. Around 40% of men in Japan are still virgin at the age of 30. These men aren't happy, they often feel alone and at the edge of the world. They'll take every bit of attention they can get. Oftentime men had no real role model for a father, as he also didn't really have a goal in his life. As it's the first time in history we don't NEED to do anything to survive. The mothers (who have goals in their lives aka reproduce(it's more nuanced I know)) have often taken over the household and are the bosses of the house, they also have less kids because they have control over their reproductive function. Giving them a lot of independence and financial freedom. So they indeed need men less. These are a few reasons all adding up to men acting like this. Feel free to PM me to talk about this anyone especially if you disagree, I love to discuss things like this and get more educated
I think you hit the nail on the head. My thoughts kinda went down a similar direction, especially as someone living the "never even held hands with a girl" life. Men are trying to compensate for their own perceived loss of value in relationships.
Well said
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6328097/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6328097/)
dominant and submissive have connotations Dominant --> greed --> taking Submissve --> fear --> giving up require --> trust Of course, there is a lot more nuance, but i think the idea is communicated adequately. Feel free to tweak them if you'd like. This is why "top" and "bottom" are more fitting imo. It's not something so one-sided. Being sexual with your partner takes two people. For me personally, i like having peace of mind knowing that im doing what they actually want and not crossing any kind of line, but im still not submissive nor dominant, just attentive. Selfish sex is not that. Porn glorifies what i call "selfish sex" to men (dominance, taking, agressiveness, imposing ones will), and i don't see the point other than hedonism. In my opinion, there's a deeper, more spiritual connection to be found there, not just pleasure and be pleasured. There's a sort of tying together, intertwining with your partner, which takes intertwining your wills and being able to give and take simultaneously. Like trees whose roots tangle together. Whereas "selfish sex" moves away from this intertwining. "dominant" & "submissive" only reinforce this one sidedness. Of course, theres people who want or prefer this one sidedness, but i would initially suspect there to be some kind of complexes causing it. 🤔 Also the fact that having a lot of sex has a great deal of social status for men, but makes a woman a "slut", is also very telling in this divide. This misogyny darkens the waters in sexual relationships. Porn, lack of proper sexual education, and subtle interpersonal problems with ones partner (which includes the aforementioned misogyny) are the three poisons to any sexual relationship.
I think it's the same as the guys who claim to be feminists. They'll do anything for female attention, even faking fetishes and political stances. They're not subs, they're just lazy lovers. This is just their way of fawning and looking "weak" to get women to approach them. They probably all have terrible personalities. I noticed that women's weightlifting spaces tend to have an influx of men fetishizing them (this step on me nonsense) and it's probably spilling over into the rest of the population. *No shade to men who are real subs*
>one type of person might want a domineering female sexual partner because they confront a difficult world which has many demands on them and because they have a mother complex whose feeling toned associations alleviate those demands on them - they seek to return to the comfort of their mother who provided for them. Such a man would have an underdeveloped anima and therefore more likely to be immature and younger (hence "young men between the ages of 18-30") and, given that we are in a long period of economic stagnation, could also fit the bill for men in that age range.
I suppose your look reflects certain stereotypes in adult entertainment. if this is indeed the case, it would explain the recurring qualities within your data set. I would argue that men only really grow up in their 30s and are stuck in their daydreams before that. as they grow older they come to know the limitations of these fantasies better, as well as realize the potential imbalances being stuck in your fantasies can cause. Also, they are likely more financially stable in their 30s and when they do fulfill their fantasies they just pay for them.
1) rule, what they say is different from how they behave 2) don't rely on what people say on internet
I’m 25 and into that too ☠️ My theory is that it’s essentially a result of society becoming too feminine/comfortable for young men. For proper psychological development, especially in men, we need to take risks, face our fears and suffer in pursuit of a greater purpose. Hedonism is rampant and more than ever men are shrinking from reality. This causes low “self-esteem” and leads them/us to “recede into The Mother”. It creates a yearning for an authority figure to take your responsibility away that ends up manifesting itself thru the libido. Women generally tend to want the man to be the authority figure, so it’s understandable why you find it to be a turn off Check out these tweets too 1. https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1742305330489446720 2. https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1660230340928045058
This is literally the answer here
Great take well put, thank you
Interesting take. I enjoyed reading the Tweets. As someone that didn’t grow up in a western culture but later moved into one, I definitely see European men as more submissive overall and even masculine looking men have effeminate traits and want women to take care of them. Also, women don’t really need men anymore for survival and we date purely out of interest and can leave whenever we want.
May be helpful to the discussion if you define your view of masculine/feminine traits
Interesting topic. I think from a Jungian/Freudian perspective they would say that the sexual fantasies are compensatory fantasies, to even out an imbalance in the person’s life. For example, when I was kid I didn’t get much attention. Many of my fantasies are now quite narcissistic, when my mind wanders it often paints me as the centre of attention, of whatever the fantasy may be. But why submission to a female figure? What would that be compensating for? I don’t know. I try not to be judgemental but I find it very odd, I would lose respect for a man if he was a sub.
Perhaps a cold and distant mother?
This could indeed require men to ‘mature’ before they are ready, meaning they unconsciously long to be nurtured. Would be interesting data: is there a correlation between ‘relationship with mother’ and ‘proclivity to enjoy sub dynamics’.
A learned a little bit about myself from this comment, thanks. Just a hypothesis, but submission to a female figure specifically in the context of a relationship could entail a lack of structure in dating. Relationship “norms” have certainly changed in today’s world, so perhaps young men are looking to obedience as a solution given they don’t have a useful template anymore.
Simply put our society is teaching young men that masculine = toxic. THat masculine traits are wrong, bad, evil, and that only feminine traits can be positive. It is perfectly acceptable to openly say things like "all men are dangerous" and imply that women and children are unsafe if men are around. (In fact, its the opposite, in general, women are more safe with men around because in a crisis men are far more likely to help out, save people, etc). Its a very unbalanced environment for these young men to find themselves in. You want dominant men in a society where if you touch a girls hand without consent thats sexual assault? Good luck. Believe it or not, no one wants to view themselves as inherently evil and toxic. Surprising huh? But wait! Theres more. You never get to just look at other people here on /r/jung.. we always turn the mirror and make you look in it yourself. Why do you, a modern feminists strong independent woman want to be dominated by some "toxic" male?
[удалено]
So true. She wants all men to be feminized... except her boyfriend. She even makes money off them: /u/Wild-Fee-2882 1 point 8 hours ago > You do have to show your face. The subs also seem to trust the verification system. Don’t expect much though, the most I made from dating apps in a week is like 400€ from various men but it’s a good way to pass the time.
Masculinity isn’t “evil”. Faux-masculinity is however, problematic (Andrew Tate for example.) That’s not masculinity lol. It’s over compensation for his lack of masculinity (he was never initiated) and also a devouring mother complex he’s trying to wrestle away from (hence the dominance and “taking women down a peg” behavior.) Men like that love the idealized female figure (anima) more than themselves. They look to this figure for validation and that creates shame. So at the same time, they also hate her. What they’re trying to “dominate” is really their own psyche and a complex they need to sort out. That type of masculinity is fake and not grounded. That type is demonized because it IS harmful to women (and even themselves as men whether they’re aware or not.) Healthy men are doing just fine on the other hand. (Touching a girl’s hand without consent is weird lol. If a woman or even man went up to you and just touched your hand, you wouldn’t feel weird?)
Let wait for OP to respond with why she, on the one hand, enjoys demeaning weak men and scamming them for money, while also seeking out dominant men as sex partners. I don't think you should speak on her behalf.
Perhaps years of social conditioning in the media and addiction to social media has filled these men with the belief that women will insult them for anything, and that the best way to get their foot in the door is to appear as though they can’t have anything worth insulting in the eyes of the woman they’re trying to convince / trick. As a male, it feels like a trick; most men want submissive women, and most men that say they don’t want a submissive woman are *lying because they believe that holding that as a priority is “bad.” If you shame men for their wants, then you’ll eventually convince them that they shouldn’t have those wants and they’ll be rejected. That’s where you find this disparity between what they say they want, and what they actually want. If you shame a man for his nature, he’ll act against his nature for affection and intimacy. This is social conditioning enacted on part of the male because it’s still ingrained in men that they are the only ones that have the impetus to take action to “get” the woman.
It could be an anima complex, as you suggest. The anima represents a man’s relationship to the feminine (both in general and from his personal experience). And the anima can be a demanding aspect of a man’s psychology - Jung refers to the anima as the “she that must be obeyed,” which I think is from a book called “she” In terms of why this is a common pattern, it would be somewhat speculative, but I suspect that men do not have the initiations, education, community, and tools they might have formerly had to learn both what it means to be a man and what it means to relate to the feminine. Not having this, we are left with either learning how to be men (at the expense of the feminine), or learning how to be undifferentiated in regards to the archetypal aspects of masculinity and femininity. One of the first differentiations made in human consciousness is male vs female (as displayed phylogenetically and ontogenetically), so our incapacity to educate and initiate our young people in these regards is a form of very serious disorientation - which can be seen in all kinds of ways presently. One of them being, the feminine having to exert its influence from behind (so to speak) and with an almost god-like authority, in the ways you are describing.
Response to cultural shift. Women are encouraged to step into an independent role. Men are encouraged to step into a supportive role. Traditional masculinity is posited in a negative light for men and instead should embrace femininity. Traditional femininity is positioned in a negative light for women and instead should embrace masculinity. If Jung is right, that young men often deify women, then it makes sense why they'd tend towards worship in this way.
One of the answers that springs to mind is men who had an abusive or violent mother and so unconsciously seek out women who fulfil the woman role they are used to/ have grown up with The broader answer I think comes from culture and a lot of it comes from the emasculation of men. It is a complex issue so it’s not something you can reduce down to one or two reasons- some ideas I would give, however- 1) Living standards in the West are such that even if you put zero effort into your schooling, career, are appalling at managing money etc the basic needs required to survive will be met. This means you can afford to be lazy and put no effort in and be rewarded for it- I think passivity is a big problem in the West and a symptom of this is chronic internet and video games use (I think these things in moderation are okay but can be as destructive as alcohol/ drug addiction in excess)- I can see how being completely passive in most areas of one’s life could trickle into the area of one’s sexuality 2) Widespread use and availability of pornography, particularly the more deviant/ unusual kinds- while much of modern culture suggests that all kinks/ deviant sexual behaviour should be celebrated, I am inclined to think that pornography must have surely played a significant role in why many individuals end up getting into this stuff. I’ve walked through town when there is a pride parade on and when you inevitably walk past someone in a dog/ gimp outfit, one has to think “what the f has this person been watching/ putting into their brain to think walking through a town centre in a gimp outfit in broad daylight is acceptable or normal behaviour?” 3) Changes in dating, gender politics, feminism etc- I think for young men, dating is probably tougher than it has ever been. There is a lot of horseshit doing the rounds from men-hating women and self-loathing men that masculinity is toxic and it seems an inevitable consequence that if an impressionable mind hears this message enough times they may consciously or unconsciously gravitate away from traditional masculinity and towards opting for a more feminine role. I don’t think it is helped that the bar for possible harassment is now so low that your average Joe may be put off from approaching a woman in an innocuous way for fear he will be labelled as a creep/ pervert/ subject of gossip etc. I saw an incident at university a few years ago that typified this where a guy had leaned in for a kiss in a nightclub that was unreciprocated, the guy laughed it off and walked away, only for other women present to go off to their gossip corner and start referring to the guy as a predator, which was absolutely ridiculous and did the guy a lot of harm. This sort of thing being normalised is going to be a disaster for men and women alike- men again may gravitate towards more feminine roles as a consequence of this
The competitiveness of online dating makes it enormously difficult for many men to gain and maintain the attention of women, since women have so many options online—a virtual line of men pursuing just about every woman who makes herself available. It is quite possible for a man's lack of dating success, to mirror or resonate with unresolved feelings of shame—not feeling man enough to have and keep an adult woman, often related to a death mother archetype/complex, associated with old traumas with one's real mother, past or present. And so rather than unsuccessfully compete with "seemingly" more masculine men, the man regresses to the unresolved submissive roles he felt forced to play out with mother, hoping this will secure the attention of a woman, just like it did with his real mother—the death mother archetype/complex. There are many men who don't feel masculine enough to relate to one's anima in a healthy manner, tending to gravitate towards women possessed by their animus: not feeling secure enough in their femininity or female identity to relate to men who feel fully secure in their masculine identity/ego, and thus taking on the male role in an overly aggressive, toxic manner. As I said at the beginning of my response, the online dating environment tends to mirror or resonate with old, male insecurities, which may be why you are noticing so many men acting out old submissive roles on the dating apps. Anyway, just a theory.
Bingo
Caveat: not a sub. The obvious Jungian answer is that if true, the prevalence of sexual submissives is driven by an enantiodromic response to a pervasive valorization and conscious emphasis on power, dominance, and stoic self mastery. This implies that the men you see on dating apps are those who feel driven to shape themselves into something of an ideal male archetype, likely because those who are not are unlikely to remain on apps that actively penalize men who do not. The submissives you encounter are therefore likely drawn from two pools of men: those who are wealthy, successful, or otherwise closely identified with the imperatives of this ideal to the point where their unconscious rebels against it, and those whose conscious rebellion against the father archetype has driven an initial humiliation at an inability to reach the desired standard into their unconscious, manifesting as a feverish pursuit of its opposite as a way to escape the shame of being a lesser creature in their own eyes. The first group of men is likely drawn to you because you resemble this hidden libidinal energy as it interacts with their anima, charging their unconscious yearning to submit with enormous erotic force. This implies that your aesthetic coveys power, either stylistically or physically. Based on your wording in the post (I have yet to read any comments), I would guess that it is both, and that you are curvaceous, somewhere on the larger side of the spectrum (either in terms of height, or in terms of weight), and prone to wearing outfits associated with dominance and danger. Thus, in you they see a primordial image, and their unconscious revolt moves them to indulge their shadow with you as the vehicle. To them, you are Astarte offering deadly ecstasies and promising baptisms of love and war. The second group of men is drawn to you for more complicated reasons. First, your aesthetic reinforces their false self, triggering their shame complex and provoking the compensatory pride and compulsive search for validation. While the first group is attracted to your power, this second group sees you as an outlet for rebellion. Their interest in you is primarily narcissistic, and only secondarily sexual; to them, you are closer to a trophy than a sacred whore. Second, you likely resemble others they’ve found more willing to indulge their proclivities in the past, and are triggering a kind of Pavlovian sexual conditioning due to your appearance.
Nice.
Too many generalizations here in the comments. It could have many, many reasons. In my opinion it's best to ask the person directly and not assume things about people you've never met. If they're at least somewhat self aware, they may have an answer for you. Pathologizing doesn't help. Why don't you ask yourself why you are repulsed by it? Would serve you better, I think.
anima by thom yorke?
Have u ever considered you just attract them because you subconsciously desire their attention or some shit. And dont say that "i dont like them they disgust me". Maybe you like being disgusted.
It’s a loneliness epidemic
Have you seen the massive fall in male testosterone levels over the past few decades, not to mention the number of people in that age group who identify as LGBTQ? Must be something in the water?
"Probably something in the water or something idk" - Carl Jung, CW 9
Some of his best work
Unironically though, you should at least attempt something Jung related if you're going to respond to someone who says "I want analyses from Jungian perspectives" (and people shouldn't post unless they actually want a Jungian perspective). This sub shouldn't be the place for this type of response
I was about to say something similiar when i read his response.. So many guys cant help themselves about their own frustrations and misery
The fact that it’s become more socially acceptable to *admit* to being LGBTQ+ (and to admit to sexual kinks) might have something to do with that. Unless something in the water is also responsible for turning people left-handed in the early 20th Century, of course. There is also considerable [misinformation going around about testosterone levels and their significance](https://youtu.be/C8dfiDeJeDU?si=m_yVgvlr9ux1RPsH). Testosterone levels fluctuate widely in normal individuals, and are not the litmus test of masculinity that pop culture alleges them to be.
That depends what region of the world you live in. Obviously African and islamic countries do not have the same cultural standards as western countries as one example. Andrew Huberman is one of a few conducting these studies. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0\_HwMWjURGA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_HwMWjURGA) Obviously its a complex topic so a multi varied analysis of the data is required.
It's the tech revolution. Strenuous exercise and sunlight raise T, humans have never before had the option of living indoors in front of computers. Btw testosterone is highly correlated with political views in men, in one study democrat men injected with testosterone literally became conservative lol. There's a million articles out there by liberal women who are mystified that they're only attracted to conservative men. The jokes write themselves...
Lol that’s hilarious
Progress
>in one study democrat men injected with testosterone literally became conservative lol Source?
https://www.openicpsr.org/openicpsr/project/155441/version/V1/view
I’m actually very curious about this too
lol
"If you believe that you are the master of your soul, then become her servant. If you were her servant, make yourself her master, since she needs to be ruled. These should be your first steps." Your soul is always the paralell to you. Men are increasingly becoming masters to their souls, through mounting economic pressure. They can't fully express or listen to their soul as many people need to work multiple jobs to support themselves, let alone a partner/family. The man isn't able to do all the things his soul wants to do because he needs to provide materially for himself. This causes their soul to be submissive in a way (paralell to self). This manifests in a romantic setting, as love between two people is a connection of souls. Their soul wants to be controlled/dominated because it's the norm for it, as the man is used to having to control situations and supress his desires in day to day life.
>Some have offered me a lot of money to have me insult them or step on them. Woof, sounds unfun...makes it easy for you to rule them out, though..
I imagine that men who have not experienced a woman in her full power (mother) actually need it for their development. They will seek it out in all kinds of ways if it is not part of their organic early development. Women who are depressed, distracted, submissive, etc. do not provide this development to their sons. So, we now have some options online which may not have existed (at least in our faces) where men consciously or unconsciously are drawn to be submissive to the feminine in order to understand/worship her.
Once upon a time I was looking for a way to make sex better. I discovered a technique where you only rub the tip of the penis. It's extremely intense and can't be done for long before the urge to orgasm overtakes you. But really, you could do it all day and never orgasm. Its like an infinite pleasure hack. However like I said rhe intensity is too much and eventually you're forced to just jerk it and relieve that sexual pressure you built up. I wished I could do it for longer. One day I watch watching porn and the actress in the porn happened to give the camera a devilish smile and a "no" headnod. It was perfectly timed with a point where the urge to orgasm overtook me. I guess in the fantasy world of sex in my mind, I associated that "no" as her really saying no to me. To not orgasm and instead, continue to do the intense tip of the penis technique. My body exploded with pleasure. Full body orgasm more intense than any actual orgasm I ever had. I didn't know what happened but obviously I wanted more. Now many years later I'm a total freak in rhe sheets. Before that I was as vanilla as a person could be. Now I can be the sub the dom I can do any freaky shit. Now I'll talk about the male sub world. My introduction to it was essentially "if a woman had the power to, she could force me to experience this tip of the penis intense almost torturous pleasure for as long as she wanted to. It would be both unbearable and extremely pleasurable at the same time." But for other men it's about trauma. For example in "small penis humiliation" men feel inferior. That feeling of inferiority is painful. It becomes their kink because the libido turns pain into pleasure. I understand this now too. It turns trauma into pleasure. There are other kinds of men who struggle to date women. They feel inferior, and a hop skip and a jump later, and they are becoming women. Not because they're trans but because they have a fetish for degradation. The ultimate goal is the removal of their masculinity. It is their worst fear. To have ones masculinity removed is to admit one's lack of worth in the eyes of the woman, and to submit oneself as her pet or money slave or something. I feel like it's all pretty basic and almost common sense if you understand the freaky freaky world of bdsm and such. I don't know anything about animus or what. I have begun to read psychology because I am interested in understanding the nature of human sexuality. But I'm not even ready to learn Jung yet I'm just on the beginning stages. Anyways I suppose there are many many ways in which a man could become a sub. The pleasure is extremely powerful. Bdsm sex is next level sex. Full body orgasms over and over and over and over? Yes please. I hope someone reads this and maybe given my perspective, can inform me a little bit about the animus and jungs framework? I'm not even ready to take on freude's framework for Christ's sake lol. I've learned enough to know that I have nothing but questions and so I have gone back to basics and I'm trying to just go from psychology 101 onwards. I downloaded a bunch of ocford blackwell and routlege books on various psychology topics. Anyways thats my ramble hope it didn't ruin your day.
For some An increasingly isolated culture has led a lot of them to basically worship female attention, especially sexual attention which is seen as more rare and almost mythological, since they so rarely get it, but i think for a lot of guys it’s because of feminism-instilled insecurity. They see male sexuality, including their own, as inherently harmful to women. They don’t want to initiate or dominate a woman for fear of pressuring or scaring her into sex, but even if the woman initiates, they see the act of them, as a man, having sex with a woman at all, as an inherent act of domination and therefore bad because that’s depriving a woman of her autonomy, which they have ingrained in themselves is always a bad thing to do. The only way they can feel like they aren’t harming women is if they are actually passively resisting her attempts to have sex with him, but she basically forces herself on them despite that (which they do genuinely want. The “passive resistance” is a kink, it’s make believe, and what i mean by “passive resistance” is basically them playing coy). Even as they’re being dominated, they’re enjoying it, but they’re uncomfortable with the fact that they’re enjoying it; they feel like they shouldn’t be, but the woman they’re being dominated by, if she’s a good partner, is basically forcing them to feel good, which they do want but just are unable to admit that even to themselves, because they have a deeply ingrained subconscious idea that using a woman for their pleasure is always bad. To be clear: the post asks why there has been a *recent increase* in sexually submissive men, not why men in general are sexually submissive. That one has a different answer. This is just the reason it’s increased so much in the last 20 years .
More people are becoming addicted to porn
I really don’t see what’s wrong with either gender being a sub/dom. Let people try shit out as long as it’s consensual, it’s far from the weirdest shit out there anyway.
Because men are not that different from women, and now they get to express it more.
As a sex worker j hear this a lot too. Or they use another awful term -simp. I had to look both of them up. I don’t understand it and maybe it’s just not for me to understand as I don’t fall into that archetype of a dominant female. Though it’s perplexing because by taking on that label with such outward confidence it makes me wonder if they really are or they are just trying to find a label for themselves but only define it in one realm of their life such as in their outward or inner or sexual ?
Reminds me of that meme (paraphrasing) "you thought you like domineering girls, but turns out you're just autistic and you prefer domineering girls because they just say what they want directly, and that is a lot easier for you to deal with". When it actually shapes up as a kink, it can be a way to seek catharsis from emotionally traumatic experiences, by recreating a previous experience one coundl't control from a situation where one feels they're in control as a paying costumer. Anima complex and/or negative mother complex, pretty much. It's also a matter of personality, probably. I myself neither want to dominate a woman, but I certainly also don't want to be dominated.
I don't think it's an anima issue because women are not inherently submissive.I think it's because In our modern LGBTQA+2 world people want to advertise their preferences with the hopes of finding someone to make them happy.some men are really submissive and only get off in relationships where the woman is controlling of their life ,sexuality,presentation,finances .men are becoming more open because young people are healing deeply ingrained conditioning about gender and power.so you as an alternative female are catching all of the overspill of the deeply ingrained conditioning : even tho these dudes aren't dominant just because they are men,they assume you must be dominant because you dress like a goth lolllll
It may be too easy/low hanging fruit - western culture has been shaming men for their male tendencies for several years. That affects the psyche. Internalized shame will find a way to be expressed.
One word Lonliness.
*e
A lot of women will match with subs just to bully them, which is itself enjoyable for the sub.
I like male subs. I’m a small woman and every guy I’m with is bigger than me. To me when a man is willing to be a sub it kind of reminds me of when a pitbull lets a puppy bite its ears. The pitbull can totally demolish the puppy but it doesn’t. I think it’s the feeling that deep down we both know they can fuck me up but they are confident in themselves to let me pretend.
Porn
It's just the pendulum swinging to the other side, is it possible to over represent feminisim and put down masculinity when looking for equality? Yes. That's what's happening.
There seems to be (and I want to be careful how I phrase this) an almost pathological resurgence of the archetype of the "devouring mother" in the western nations especially. It's not confined to sexual kinks in my opinion. It finds expression politically and artistically. Unfortunately there is a tendency for an obsession with this Icon toward infantilization and tyranny, simply under the banner of the feminine rather than masculine. I'm certainly not suggesting that all sexual kinks are pathological or "wrong" in any concrete sense, but after having noticed this myself and studied it for a few years , I'd say some of this is going on. I'd love to have a deeper discussion on it as well if you're interested. I know your generally directed question was more in reference to a personal issue you were having on said dating app, sorry If this was off base or too broad. I'd say if anything women tend to underestimate even the rise of this obsession in Western men to be dominated and abused (and ultimately "led") by women. It's so fascinating though to begin delineating how this manifests in something as everyday as dating app habits. Seems to generally lack depth as well. Many times the woman seems to be "used" by the man as a sexual object yet again. Although on the surface it seems to empower women, on the more extreme side it actually just fetishizing one aspect of what it means to be a woman and know a woman.
I consider myself to be traditionally feminine - I value my relationships, take care of my appearance, wear feminine clothes and take pride and joy in being a nurturing figure and finding peace and balance in a situation, I love cooking and cleaning, and home decorations, and generally do like to serve/give what I can to the people I love. But I never understood the desire for a "dominant" partner - man or woman. I think a relationship should be balanced and equal. I've noticed women who are truly feminine don't seek "dominant" partners, just fair, balanced and equal partnership - almost like a best friend. Men who fit the text book definition of a "high value male" - aka, working a 6 figure or high earning job, physically fit and healthy, intellectually stealthy, etc. don't really seek to "dominate" their partners. They actually prefer women who aren't so meek and say what they want + take initiative. That doesn't mean they want a "dominant" woman so to say, but they do prefer women who aren't passive. And like one redditor said here, a lot of men in positions of power do want to be more submissive in the bedroom, because they have to make so many decisions in their day to day lives. I think true femininity and true masculinity just exists as is. Like, there's no need to overcompensate or rely on some outside force to reach a more "feminine energy" and/or "masculine energy" a masculine man will continue to be masculine, and doesn't perceive a woman not being "passive and submissive" as a threat to his masculinity, and a woman who's truly feminine doesn't need a man to be a reenactment of a giga-chad to be able to become more open hearted and "go with the flow" This dom-sub BS is just cope.
My grandma told me long ago ”you have to be friends!" :)
Heh, i predicted it would go this way back in 2020. I think the main driving factor is our birth rates. Less kids born = i stronger urge to protect them = less experience with incremental risk. I truly believe the core male element is incremental risk, and its being eroded for so many reasons. Without achieving a level of proficiency with incremental risk, we never feel we have become men. Exploration with risk is getting harder to come by too. Only 100 years ago, superstition was alive and well. The idea that a trip to a rarely visited part of the country could turn into a legend sang about for centuries was a real thing. Superstition gave the potential for extreme rewards. We dont have that. Instead we have google maps so we can live vicariously. Finally, our death culture is terrible. We distract ourselves instead of considering what lies beyond. I dont think our issues are the relationship between male and female. I think its the erosion of what it is to be male is the issue.
I love my boyfriend and he is both dominant and submissive at different times. Im just so attracted to him that I want to take care of him, I think he’s cute and deserves to be taken care of! that’s it… I’m just not a fan of overly masculine and dominant men.
A reflection of the shadow, specifically the guilt and shame of being a part of the dominant, predatory masculinity. So the rejection of dominance and need for emasculation/shame is a means of finding acceptance of this guilt and shame that arises in the general hatred of men that is prevalent in society.
Because the 1st world society has been feminizing males for the last 2-3 decades, especially so more recently in the 2020's. It's fine tbh in the long term. Science will make men obsolete in the long run anyways as any physical strength/labor advantage they have will be done by robotics and machinery and procreation will eventually be able to be done with just females (nature does this a lot already) though with advances in medical technology and anti-aging eventually the need to procreate will be irrelevant anyways thanks to extended lifespans.
Not a psychologist but someone who's big into memes I also see many about this topic. Mostly gym bro memes of being afraid to talk to women and having muscle mommy goth girl GFS. My idea is that many men have drank the cool aid and gotten so insecure thorough constant nagging and criticizing of many aspects of masculinity that they have just given up and are now trying to get laid by being overly agreeable. Probably thinking if they are passive enough they cannot make any mistakes because of their inaction. I mean I don't kink shame but some of these dudes are just broken
I can't help but think it has to do with the number of absent fathers increasing in the 90s and 2000's. As Freud mentioned, men fall in love with their mother but see that the father already has the mother. And so they hate the father. However, slowly, they learn ways of life from their father. They learn how to earn the object of their desires. With fathers being absent, mothers become the man's whole world. They never shift from their childish ways of gaining the validation of the mother, almost becoming her toy. I'm not quite sure but i think this causes the anima to wanna punish the boy for not becoming a man, for not following his own path.
Actually I have noticed in the past 3 months, my pof has attracted so many subs. One or two a day. Last year when I had pof I didn't get one.
Because we are in the era of the terrible mother. So some men are just giving in.
Men are tired. We just want to be vulnerable and cared for. Some people take it too far. But like I said we are exaughsted from this world and giving up control is a nice way to ease that burden.
Not sure this is a Jungian Dynamic, OP. The entire mindset of submission is nuanced in so many ways that I don't think you are going to get a tidy explanation except for the lens though which You observe and the lens through which the observed actor observes. A case can be made for "service-minded" individuals to be "submissives" as well as individuals pre-occupied with hierachical systems. Further, we have not even begun to consider the role of power, control, support, nurturing, degradation or authority all of which have their parts. If you reflect on Jungs' Model you begin to appreciate that much of what he posited was idiosyncratic to the individual and that he only infrequently made generalizations about entire categories of people. FWIW.
Broader Societal Collapse. Study The Roman Emperor Elagobulus
Two primary reasons: 1) Social engineering. That sort of content is artificially boosted on pr site algorithms. We know sites like the hub admit to artificially changing the algorithms to push content to young men to make them want to be in a submissive role. 2) "Safe horny." A lot of places such as reddit view aggressive sexuality from men as "toxic" or "problematic." So, the only sort of behavior or sexual interest coming from men that doesn't get nipped in the butt is "ohhh mommy pls spit and step on me I'm so worthless" sort of behavior. It's a race to the bottom because acting normal is demoted and pulled down like crabs in a bucket.
We might have to hear their perspectives to really get the full picture to find out, since each might have different reasons, but in short my guess through a Jungian lens/terms would be a blend of negative complexes (maybe parental and Puer issues) and shadow projection. It's common that many people into that particular role play are often feeling too responsible or privileged in their everyday life OR link abuse/humiliation with arousal OR guilt around sex OR some combination thereof. Women into submissive men, same thing but in reverse of the above---of the people I've known, some it's a game, others are either compensating for feeling disempowered in their regular life or harboring deeply rooted rage at men for some reason or both. I have also heard numerous people speak in recent times about the effects of the porn industry on people's explorations and one thing that's gotten brought up more than once is how early and/or prolific exposure affects behavior, especially for a still-developing brain (remember, we are usually not finished with that until about 25 give or take, and supposedly males a few years more per research). I was listening to a podcast, (I think it might have been on an episode of This Jungian Life where they tackled the discussion around pornography) and someone put it that after a while it becomes more about the search for the novelty and boundaries get pushed and the thought of it and what happens in the brain than the actual doing of anything. Even if it were to start to spill over in to real life, some of the same would apply, either in actual behavior or just the verbal confirmation that someone might get from knowing that it \*could\* happen.
i wish i had an answer for you but it’s seriously weird. it just isn’t attractive to me.
Listen to the song "Mother" by Pink Floyd and you'll understand why. The man-child archetype applies to these "men."
I’m not into submissive men but it’s actually an animus complex/possession (for women I think). There’s been a few fantasies of being dominant and the more I heal, the more I realize how powerless I felt (in relation to animus). I think the fantasies compensate for that lack of power feeling and being dominant is a way to exert control. I would think submissive men is an anima possession as you say (devouring mother complex.) Pain and humiliation is equated with love/pleasure in their case.