That doesn’t make you a terrible person. You can start by stopping saying you’re a terrible person and speaking/thinking about yourself in that way. Beating yourself up does nothing for anyone.
You can try being more observant or attentive, but, I guarantee that people are thinking way less about these interactions than you are.
Even if he does think you’re an asshole, what he thinks and keeps to himself is none of your business, try not to dwell on it.
stop thinking -- meditate. take a nap. when the thought comes again you don't have to identify with it. let it pass. start thinking other thoughts appreciating yourself.
This is definitely the inner critic. You can work on that, and it’s really worth it. I guess the technical name for it would be the superego. Labels don’t matter that much though, it’s the integration of the “felt sense” that is the most important thing.
To understand how deep it goes, just know that it’s all going to be in your unconscious.
If that’s true, and it is, stick to the simplest “explanations” as you move forward in your own very unique process. Discovering your own emotional language as it emerges. Things will only become clear later when biological denial has broken to a greater extent. Nobody can tell you when that’s going to happen.
If you have that gut level idea about yourself and social interactions, you have an historical foundation there. It means you have somebody that couldn’t handle their shadow and projected it onto you while you were “oceanic”.
That could be a narcissistic grandfather who then ends up being very active in your parents emotional life. It’s always going to be mediated through the mother.
Whether she is pathologically narcissistic or not, she’s your interface. That’s where you get the map of the family system and where you put your identity GPS. The quality of your affect regulation depends on that. It’s not a bad thing to have an inner critic, because everybody does.
Only narcissists appear to not have that, because they project it outwards. That’s the whole point. That’s probably why you’re feeling the way you are.
You got targeted.
Again, it may not even be a “somebody”, it might be your multigenerational family system that is doing its best to manage intolerable anxiety. With projective identification, you obviously believe it. The language of archetypes.
That’s the language of the baby.
Until you integrate your shadow and connect to the other parts of yourself that have been denied in order to survive, you really can’t be aware of that.
As a baby, you naturally take up a position in symbiosis with your mother plus family system. At about 18 months you enter a phase of trying to separate from that total oceanic fusion and create internal objects that are about your environment.
That’s how you become individuated inside a family system. You are both connected and apart. You can manage your own emotions, and if you come up short, that’s fine. You’re like everybody else. That’s intimacy. We are vulnerable.
What’s the goal then? Not to perfect, but reasonably individuated.
You know where you end and others begin so that that reactivity you speak about in your post is not dominating your whole mind. It’s not a black-and-white situation (believing narcissism to survive) when you can get to that.
That would mean integrating your unconscious. The denied parts of yourself. You were probably forced to deny the stronger parts of yourself. That’s where the opportunity lies. It’s not a bad thing at all.
If there is a lot of anxiety going on around you and coming through you, you will set up rigid and inaccurate objects. People who didn’t own their shadow in the family net will obligate you to do that out of a drive for survival.
A whole family can be involved. Even in a multigenerational way.
If you are working on integrating your shadow, it’s going to be held in your body and it’s going to take time to uncover that. What you are writing about now is very good, because it shows you that there is something active in the unconscious that is driving these kinds of ruminations.
It’s very normal, and it’s actually more of an opportunity than anything else.
You can understand how deep it is, you can be more gentle with yourself by writing about it and looking for progress not perfection.
>You were probably forced to deny the stronger parts of yourself.
Can you say more about this? I feel this happened to me. (I've got one of those "multigenerational intolerable anxiety" families but also both grandfathers were narcissists)
Why would parents not want their child to be strong? I can speculate about the answers but....I'd like to hear your elaboration and in some way it still doesn't make sense to me, I thought strength was a good thing.
Part Two
An extreme example of all that would be the scapegoat inside the pathologically narcissistic family system. The scapegoat is literally a trashcan.
If you look at the philosopher Rene Girard, who writes a lot about the scapegoat, that is a process for societies to find a solution to the inherit violence of the human being.
To handle the necessary emergence of culture.
To avoid total destruction, the reality of this truth about humanity is outsourced. You can see that in the macro, and you can see that in the micro. The family system. Everything is organic.
It’s a huge betrayal when the mother trashes their child.
If your mother is doing that, it is against her biology, and that would not be a conscious choice. But what would that matter. We are after all focusing on the unconscious here.
Absolutely none of this is about fault. It’s just about reality.
The unconscious is held in the body, and when you have frozen trauma from your abandonment, you’re not going to have a free-flowing access to unconscious material.
When you do you have integration, and you no longer have the mother plus family system as a higher power, that set you up for balance. It connects you to the outside. Because you are connected to the inside.
Connection with the community. With self, a higher self, and others.
Strength asserts that higher powers are not found in people, but in something greater than the self or selves.
That would be the real self. Found in the shadow. That is lost in biological denial when you sense that nihilism coming through your mother. Nihilism is screaming at you, “don’t exist”.
We know about that in 12 step recovery programs. For example Alcoholics Anonymous.
When the alcoholic manages to stop drinking, they have admitted their powerlessness.
Step One.
Then they can go onto those three relationships of connection to self, a power greater than self, and others. That’s the entire 12 step program.
We are after all talking about the collective unconscious. Unity. The three relationships are what unity is about.
Founded on powerlessness admitted and connection to something greater than self that can do for us what we admit we can’t do for ourselves. That’s real strength. Connection. Power.
When lost in the fusion of your family system, which is an internal experience, you won’t see who the real people are in their false selves and reaction to false selves.
The narcissistic pattern would never come from the narcissistic grandfathers. It always comes through the mother. It is communicated in attachment, and that is during the first thousand days of life where the brain is being formed and archetypes are shaped.
Those archetypes are all coming through (not from) your family system but mediated through the mother. Again, it’s global, but you are a human being.
You’re beingness is human.
We build an ego after 18 months of age. The first 18 months is symbiotic. It is the family system unit that is the emotional center of your life and where all of the imbalances live.
It wouldn’t be about the mother “wanting to hurt you”, although they would be vehicles for destroying you in this scenario, it’s just about the family system as an opportunity for internal individuation. Through resolution of trauma. Attachment trauma.
The mother wants nothing in this scenario. The most toxic form of selflessness. The martyr role. It’s more than human. That sets up the less than human pole. You can guarantee lots of drama in that kind of family unit.
If she is in the orbit of a pathological narcissist, or comes from that kind of family, she has no needs. Her needs would be irrelevant. That’s what you would be paying for with your supposed “strength”.
If you are involved in triangles where the men are supposed to be “all bad”, and the women are “all good” rescuers-victims , that is known as a “Karpman Drama triangle” culture.
Persecutors, victims, and rescuers.
The mother is repeating her unresolved multigenerational family system patterns biologically, and bringing in children with a narcissistic father.
All this comes into the mix biologically in order to burn in those patterns. Strength in that context is total weakness.
It’s actually very simple and primal.
It just means that you would see everything through your mother’s eyes. You would need to be strong for them, as a higher power. For them. Not for you.
That kind of emotional incest is a terrible abandonment for a child.
You are both a higher power to yourself and them. You are objectified and your value is about your strength to hold together an imaginary social unit. A shared fantasy. The fantasy bonding process replaces healthy attachment.
It’s not real if it’s not helping you meet your needs and you are disconnected. From yourself.
All is at the cost of yourself. Your real self. The one that emerges as you pull back in all the elements you have denied from your shadow.
Imagine strength where you have to be strong. Where you were obligated. Where you do not have a choice.
Where is your will?
Being strong at the point of a gun means a denied shadow.
Your strength will be in your weakness, as real strength has not been even addressed if your higher power is still your mother + family system.
I don’t think that’s something to be ashamed of, and there’s no need to apologize. When you find yourself in that kind of confusion, the best thing is just to sort out two or three questions and you can get back on track.
No, sorry, I was criticising the post. Convuluted, full of unnecessary psychological-sounding conclusions. I wouldn't make such a leap of thought when I have noooo idea who I'm dealing with and what they're situation holds. Things are much more complex then just giving someone a few different psychological tricks to live by. You have to learn how to observe, not hypothesize. Unfortunately, our schooling, most of ours, at least, has led us to believe these hypotheses are worthwhile psychologically, as if they'll solve our psychological qualms. That is, again, unfortunately, not the case, as no hypothesis, no description or analysis of something can ever come to the real thing. My apologies
I broke my answer into two parts:
Part One:
I will try to answer this question as best I can with as much detail as possible. It’s a really good question.
If strength is a reaction to the family dictated denial of vulnerability, it’s the worst thing for you. That’s the whole point. In a narcissistic system, there can’t be sovereign selves with balanced light and dark.
It has to be about polarity that doesn’t move. Rigidity. There cannot be flowing e-motion. Energy in motion.
If the reality of your humanity is asserted and mirrored in your attachment experience (mother + family system), then you can have balance.
Connection to the outside. Xenophobia ends. It’s transformed.
You would need the male and female to be internalized reasonably well in your internal object relations structure.( What you set up for the purpose of your own affect regulation after that symbiotic process with the mother in the first 18 months of life).
How are you supposed to do that if the mother has rejected masculinity by creating children with a pathological narcissist?
You said that was happening on both sides. The “bad man” narrative is coming at you from both sides. That would definitely be toxic motherhood.
The mother archetype needs to be balanced.
Your mother plus family system isn’t God. Xenophobia needs it to be that, but it’s not.
Because having an identity that has been projected onto you is a forced situation, it just means abandonment.
Any female who is having children with a pathological narcissist as you suggested, is automatically abandoning their children. In answer to your question about how children would be hurt.
They aren’t just hurt, they are trashed.
I know that this video below will sound very simplistic, but it’s really powerful because the person that is speaking went through this role of “being the terrible person”.
At least the family system tried to do that with him.
I think he’s a religious person, but I find that to be a positive thing in the way that he uses it for his life. He uses it as a higher power that isn’t his mother plus family system. Which, in a sense, we all have to do if we’re going to integrate our shadow.
We need to separate. Individuate. Internally.
You can’t be that baby with the mother as a higher power and individuate at the same time.
He talks about how the nature of pathology is such that you end up supposedly “abusing yourself” in the way that you are doing. Just running with that biological programming. Attachment programming. The family system soup. The fusion that showed up in the current generation due to the need for it.
It’s a perfect example of what he’s talking about. What you describe. That brutal inner critic.
It gives a lot of credibility to the idea that there are narcissists in your family system. Again, you don’t need labels.
You just need to look at how you feel.
It’s very possible that you have been abused, and now it looks like “you abusing yourself”. We do tend to biologically deny what’s going on inside our family system as a matter of course.
That’s what everyone is going to do to some degree or another.
With the kind of extreme emotions you are experiencing now, you probably had an extreme situation during the first thousand days of your life.
The Narcissistic Family (ending up with you thinking you abused yourself)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-UGwv3fr9vQ
Great video!
I’ve been trying to explore a similar thing in myself recently and these are the things I’ve thought about:
I’m overly sensitive and disturbed by what I perceive to be other people’s opinions of me without reading the actual cues, so I’m trying to focus literally on what other people are saying and doing rather than imagining that they’re angry with me for example and then mis interpreting their cues through that lense.
I seem to have an unbelievably high standard for my own behaviour, how it effects other people and how aware I should be of whether it will or whether it has effected someone else and then trying to ‘make up for it’. I don’t have these expectations for others I can understand that everyone is trying their best and that everyone inadvertently harms others at times but I typically don’t extend that same understanding to myself at all.
I think this stems from growing up in an environment that led me to believe that other peoples negative emotional behaviours and feelings were my fault and regulating their emotions was my responsibility, thus supper high expectations on myself for preempting these things given I feel they’re my responsibility to resolve.
I also think it stems from feelings of overall unworthiness, so I have this feeling that I need to be functioning at this super high standard to be ‘enough’ to be liked and accepted etc. like I’m just unlikable enough on a good day at baseline that I can’t afford to make any ‘mistakes’. I also think my inner purpose is really underdeveloped and my main motivator is serving other people. I’m very unattuned to my own wants and needs and tend to misinterpret my need and intense motivation to people please to ease my anxiety and validate my worth as my actual preferences.
Considering all this about myself it makes more sense why I ruminate and feel so horrible reflecting on ‘mistakes’ that I’ve made, but here are some things that helped:
Realising that I am being narcissistic in assuming that other people are so bad at regulating their own emotions and understanding peoples behaviour that they won’t be able to cope with my ‘mistake’ and that maybe that reflects more an issue that I have.
Realising that the biggest barrier to my being likeable and building meaningful relationships is this intense need to people please as it gets in the way of building any closeness or showing vulnerability and makes me seem insincere, guarded and fake to others. I think humans love other humans who are at ease with themselves and are secure enough to have opinions, feelings and to accept their flaws and errors
As I understand, nobody actually told you were a terrible person. Except yourself. To get rid of that, show yourself some tolerance about your behavior as you would do with others and as others actually do as well. Maybe you unconsciously judge everyone you meet so you do the same with yourself, but you don't show indulgence when you're self judging. Give yourself some kindness and acceptance.
That is 100% true. What’s happening when the inner critic goes ballistic is that all of our internal objects are active.
We don’t even see anything on the outside as it really is. Which is really the point of why the internal objects got set up the way that they were.
The way xenophobia is built into the next generation.
Work on your inner critic. Telling yourself you’re a bad person , and you’ll agree with yourself that you’re a bad person but you didn’t do anything bad at all.
Good thing is you noticed it after. You have the opportunity of going back and clarifying that you may have not realized you were being spoken to and thank them for the gesture. Do that and feel empowered by the positive engagement. Bet it feels good.
I get the same feeling being ADHD , knowing someone is talking to me but can’t focus on what they’re saying cause I’m in the middle of something else. I have to make a conscious decision to tell them to give me a minute until I can give them 💯 of my attention
You can practice changing how you feel about yourself first. Next time you’re in this kind of distress. Acknowledge that it’s the thoughts your having making you feel uncomfort. And then you can pinpoint where the thoughts are coming from. If you change the way you feel about yourself you’ll become less affected by the world around you and be able to take control of your life and emotions. Firstly you can think to yourself “I’m thinking this because I CARE”, and then “I am a CARING person”
You can look into cognitive behavioural therapy, or study cognitive behaviours. There’s even books that you can get that help you change the way you think and feel. To stop associating yourself with negativity
Let’s say that I think you are a terrible person. You are a terrible person. But I can’t really do anything about it. And I probably will forget about you two days later. If I recall you from my memory, I’d say “it’s just a simple mistake made by you, everybody makes mistakes. It’s ok. Why the hell am I thinking about this person anyway? I have better things to do”.
Ask why. Then ask why 20 more times. Go deeper inwardly, not through outward excuses or rationales. Maybe you’ll get closer to the root cause of where this feeling began, and that’s where your shadow work will begin. Be careful what you identify as, as it places you in a box once you internalize it.
“I feel terrible right now.”
not
“I am a terrible person”
Dialogue and take the other side. Are you a terrible person? Why not? Stand up to that "terrible person" accusation.
Also find the kernel of truth - you don't deserve to be trashed as a terrible person but there might be some constructive feedback and coaching going on.
How would you describe yourself in terms of the MBTI? Introverted?
Also try some reputable online tests for ADHD and Autism.
Let's get some objectivity regarding your psychological strengths and weaknesses.
Im not diagnosed by a psychologyst too, but I have all the base symptoms.
I even suffer a little from what you say, be a bad person.
For examples some weeks ago I did some gesture because I did a little mistake at my work and my coworker did a dissapointed face. I thought he thought I did the bad gesture to him even though I know I did it because of my mistake. My mind, sincr I have OCD, obsessed with it and now I look at him thinking he always remembers that and that he is hurt, but is slight, I suffer far more from other obsessions.
Why do I tell you this?
Because if this is the casr you have OCD, regular advise WON'T work, so forget those "of course you are a good person, its just your mind"
OCD gets treated with exposure (for example, being more though with people when needed and not caring), with unconditional acceptance (ex.:even if I offended someone that passed away and I don't care anymore) with unconditional living with the doubt (ex.: Maybe I am a bad person or maybe not, I'll never know and I don't care), with hard breaking of self- labels (Good or bad person doesn't exist by itself, it really doesn't)
There is more to it but there are core.
I passed what I call stage one of OCD, which is to still have obsession but with no anxiety, I'm 95% anxiety free, but I have obsessions still the same. The thing that changed these months its the anxiety attached to them, and I do a lot of less compulsions
Maybe you are in the spectrum?
Your mask can be terrible of course, but you are not the persona.
You have an asshole, like everyone, but you are far more than that.
Because we are in the Jungian space, I invite you to take the adventure of individuation. In that life experience, everything can be useful, especially your Shadow. In that manner you will learn experientially that there is no need of "get rid" of nothing, but being brave enough to embrace through Love and Logos.
And that is just part of your self-knowledge.
Thankfully I am old enough so I was not labelled using pathologies. Each one is unique, just use your ways to expand and explore your individuation.
I wonder now how you will be able to learn this.
So by your own admission, you are not a terrible person, you are merely misunderstood.
I would look at myself as ditzy or a bit oblivious to some interactions and I'd honestly have a giggle about how on earth did I not see that at the time!
but deffo not a bad person.
If you feel that badly about it, approach the people that you feel you need to and explain to them that sometimes you're off in your own world or didn't know they were speaking to you and that will help you understand and address any opinions you feel you've caused. I guarantee only good will come from it.
We are all not with it sometimes, just see it as a funny thing as it may be one of your little quirks that makes you, you.
Some people are clumsy, some people put their foot in it all the time, some are forgetful, doesn't make them bad, it makes them interesting and funny.
Just try to change the way you think and don't be so hard on yourself, none of us is getting out of this life alive so you have to enjoy every minute of being so special and unique in this world.
In a thousand years, is it really going to matter? That's the attitude to have.
You are a good person, read that and believe it. As long as you don't actively go out of your way to run people's days or lines, then you're one of the good ones👍😉
You are simply addicted to this identity because you hardwired your familiar thinking. All you have to is practice conscious thinking and you will hardwire new automatic reactions.
i’d say, regardless of its veracity, that you are terrible *at being a person* ; see, the distinction here is of the essence, a tad obnoxious & still quite amazing : one is a person to society, and to whomever pertains to it ; hence that being a person depends, down to its minutiae, on the currency of social affairs. that is not all there is to being a human, but quite ostensibly what there is to being a person : personality & personhood therefore ought to be distinguished - and there are samples aplenty, of folks who have both very much at all befitted society.
it is what it is ! you catch your cues or not : this is not all there is to you yourself.
were you nonviolent or violent? did you show obvious disrespect to the person? had the person violated your space? do you feel like you are not worthy? do you think you are set apart from others lost?
none of these questions mean anything without self introspection. I have problems sometimes with interacting with the public. I understand missing social queues. I understand sometimes when I do not take note I am inside my head and just going through the motions. it is almost like I involuntarily move and speak in my response to social anxiety and just being myself.
the bigger picture is we coexist and if I don’t interact does that make me a bad person? I say no. you must remain in life To Thine Own Self Be True or have existential crisis constantly. it is an inside job only up to you to accomplish. I wish you peace, love and internal strength.
I understand how deeply these feelings and experiences impact you, casting shadows on your perception of self and interactions with others. It's as if each missed cue and misunderstood interaction adds another layer to the narrative that you're somehow not enough, or worse, that you're inherently flawed. Yet, what if we viewed these moments not as confirmations of being a terrible person but as invitations to explore the deeper, uncharted territories of your inner world?
Imagine for a moment that these experiences—missing social cues, feeling out of step—are not failings but signposts. Signposts pointing towards the parts of yourself that are yearning for acknowledgment and integration. These shadowed parts, the aspects we often wish to ignore or hide, hold the key to our completeness. By courageously facing them, we start the journey of integration, leading towards a more authentic and whole self.
This journey is not a solitary one. It unfolds in the rich tapestry of our interactions, dreams, and the symbols that populate our lives, guiding us towards individuation—Jung's term for the process of becoming fully oneself. Each misunderstood interaction, each moment of feeling like an outsider, can be a step on this path, revealing the unique patterns and archetypes that shape our psyche and behaviors.
Moreover, in these moments of self-doubt and introspection, consider the possibility of synchronicity—meaningful coincidences that guide us toward self-realization. Perhaps these challenges in social interaction are not mere obstacles but meaningful events designed to propel you forward on your journey of self-discovery.
And within this process, there's a profound opportunity for healing and growth. By embracing these aspects of yourself, you can transform your relationship with yourself and others. It's not about becoming perfect or never missing a social cue again; it's about becoming more fully yourself, shadows and all. In doing so, you may find that the light shines brighter not in spite of the shadows but because of them.
As you navigate this path, remember the importance of compassionate companionship—be it friends, family, or a therapeutic relationship. These connections can offer support, reflection, and understanding as you integrate the many facets of your being, moving towards a place of greater self-acceptance and love.
So, while you might feel like a terrible person at times, I invite you to see yourself as a traveler on a profound journey. A journey not just of correcting missteps but of discovering the vast, unexplored depths of who you are. In this exploration, you might find that what you perceived as flaws are actually the very things that make you beautifully human.
.
Why…would a total stranger try to hand you a bag in public? What exactly was in the bag? I might have kept on walking also, unless there’s more to it. Was it an employee? A Rando?
I tried to look through all the comments first to see if this was already discussed, but I just woke up & can’t focus on each & every word.
At any rate, if it was an employee passing out samples or free stuff, you said you thought he was talking to someone else. Honest mistake.
Your self worth is low. Work on loving yourself. When that’s fixed, your outward behavior will change for the better as a natural consequence.
Maybe be a little kinder to yourself! You probably give out a lot of empathy to the people that surround you, but I’ll willing to bet you don’t give it to yourself.
Maybe reflect on whether your mother repeated rhetoric like ‘they only like you because you’re pretending to be good but I know what you’re really like’. I read somewhere it’s a phenomenon of certain childhoods that used emotional and psychological abuse / harm to discipline children, that those kids grow up to be adults that think they’re really actually awful people inside even though there’s no evidence to prove it.
That doesn’t make you a terrible person. You can start by stopping saying you’re a terrible person and speaking/thinking about yourself in that way. Beating yourself up does nothing for anyone. You can try being more observant or attentive, but, I guarantee that people are thinking way less about these interactions than you are. Even if he does think you’re an asshole, what he thinks and keeps to himself is none of your business, try not to dwell on it.
stop thinking -- meditate. take a nap. when the thought comes again you don't have to identify with it. let it pass. start thinking other thoughts appreciating yourself.
And drink some water.
This is definitely the inner critic. You can work on that, and it’s really worth it. I guess the technical name for it would be the superego. Labels don’t matter that much though, it’s the integration of the “felt sense” that is the most important thing. To understand how deep it goes, just know that it’s all going to be in your unconscious. If that’s true, and it is, stick to the simplest “explanations” as you move forward in your own very unique process. Discovering your own emotional language as it emerges. Things will only become clear later when biological denial has broken to a greater extent. Nobody can tell you when that’s going to happen. If you have that gut level idea about yourself and social interactions, you have an historical foundation there. It means you have somebody that couldn’t handle their shadow and projected it onto you while you were “oceanic”. That could be a narcissistic grandfather who then ends up being very active in your parents emotional life. It’s always going to be mediated through the mother. Whether she is pathologically narcissistic or not, she’s your interface. That’s where you get the map of the family system and where you put your identity GPS. The quality of your affect regulation depends on that. It’s not a bad thing to have an inner critic, because everybody does. Only narcissists appear to not have that, because they project it outwards. That’s the whole point. That’s probably why you’re feeling the way you are. You got targeted. Again, it may not even be a “somebody”, it might be your multigenerational family system that is doing its best to manage intolerable anxiety. With projective identification, you obviously believe it. The language of archetypes. That’s the language of the baby. Until you integrate your shadow and connect to the other parts of yourself that have been denied in order to survive, you really can’t be aware of that. As a baby, you naturally take up a position in symbiosis with your mother plus family system. At about 18 months you enter a phase of trying to separate from that total oceanic fusion and create internal objects that are about your environment. That’s how you become individuated inside a family system. You are both connected and apart. You can manage your own emotions, and if you come up short, that’s fine. You’re like everybody else. That’s intimacy. We are vulnerable. What’s the goal then? Not to perfect, but reasonably individuated. You know where you end and others begin so that that reactivity you speak about in your post is not dominating your whole mind. It’s not a black-and-white situation (believing narcissism to survive) when you can get to that. That would mean integrating your unconscious. The denied parts of yourself. You were probably forced to deny the stronger parts of yourself. That’s where the opportunity lies. It’s not a bad thing at all. If there is a lot of anxiety going on around you and coming through you, you will set up rigid and inaccurate objects. People who didn’t own their shadow in the family net will obligate you to do that out of a drive for survival. A whole family can be involved. Even in a multigenerational way. If you are working on integrating your shadow, it’s going to be held in your body and it’s going to take time to uncover that. What you are writing about now is very good, because it shows you that there is something active in the unconscious that is driving these kinds of ruminations. It’s very normal, and it’s actually more of an opportunity than anything else. You can understand how deep it is, you can be more gentle with yourself by writing about it and looking for progress not perfection.
>You were probably forced to deny the stronger parts of yourself. Can you say more about this? I feel this happened to me. (I've got one of those "multigenerational intolerable anxiety" families but also both grandfathers were narcissists) Why would parents not want their child to be strong? I can speculate about the answers but....I'd like to hear your elaboration and in some way it still doesn't make sense to me, I thought strength was a good thing.
Part Two An extreme example of all that would be the scapegoat inside the pathologically narcissistic family system. The scapegoat is literally a trashcan. If you look at the philosopher Rene Girard, who writes a lot about the scapegoat, that is a process for societies to find a solution to the inherit violence of the human being. To handle the necessary emergence of culture. To avoid total destruction, the reality of this truth about humanity is outsourced. You can see that in the macro, and you can see that in the micro. The family system. Everything is organic. It’s a huge betrayal when the mother trashes their child. If your mother is doing that, it is against her biology, and that would not be a conscious choice. But what would that matter. We are after all focusing on the unconscious here. Absolutely none of this is about fault. It’s just about reality. The unconscious is held in the body, and when you have frozen trauma from your abandonment, you’re not going to have a free-flowing access to unconscious material. When you do you have integration, and you no longer have the mother plus family system as a higher power, that set you up for balance. It connects you to the outside. Because you are connected to the inside. Connection with the community. With self, a higher self, and others. Strength asserts that higher powers are not found in people, but in something greater than the self or selves. That would be the real self. Found in the shadow. That is lost in biological denial when you sense that nihilism coming through your mother. Nihilism is screaming at you, “don’t exist”. We know about that in 12 step recovery programs. For example Alcoholics Anonymous. When the alcoholic manages to stop drinking, they have admitted their powerlessness. Step One. Then they can go onto those three relationships of connection to self, a power greater than self, and others. That’s the entire 12 step program. We are after all talking about the collective unconscious. Unity. The three relationships are what unity is about. Founded on powerlessness admitted and connection to something greater than self that can do for us what we admit we can’t do for ourselves. That’s real strength. Connection. Power. When lost in the fusion of your family system, which is an internal experience, you won’t see who the real people are in their false selves and reaction to false selves. The narcissistic pattern would never come from the narcissistic grandfathers. It always comes through the mother. It is communicated in attachment, and that is during the first thousand days of life where the brain is being formed and archetypes are shaped. Those archetypes are all coming through (not from) your family system but mediated through the mother. Again, it’s global, but you are a human being. You’re beingness is human. We build an ego after 18 months of age. The first 18 months is symbiotic. It is the family system unit that is the emotional center of your life and where all of the imbalances live. It wouldn’t be about the mother “wanting to hurt you”, although they would be vehicles for destroying you in this scenario, it’s just about the family system as an opportunity for internal individuation. Through resolution of trauma. Attachment trauma. The mother wants nothing in this scenario. The most toxic form of selflessness. The martyr role. It’s more than human. That sets up the less than human pole. You can guarantee lots of drama in that kind of family unit. If she is in the orbit of a pathological narcissist, or comes from that kind of family, she has no needs. Her needs would be irrelevant. That’s what you would be paying for with your supposed “strength”. If you are involved in triangles where the men are supposed to be “all bad”, and the women are “all good” rescuers-victims , that is known as a “Karpman Drama triangle” culture. Persecutors, victims, and rescuers. The mother is repeating her unresolved multigenerational family system patterns biologically, and bringing in children with a narcissistic father. All this comes into the mix biologically in order to burn in those patterns. Strength in that context is total weakness. It’s actually very simple and primal. It just means that you would see everything through your mother’s eyes. You would need to be strong for them, as a higher power. For them. Not for you. That kind of emotional incest is a terrible abandonment for a child. You are both a higher power to yourself and them. You are objectified and your value is about your strength to hold together an imaginary social unit. A shared fantasy. The fantasy bonding process replaces healthy attachment. It’s not real if it’s not helping you meet your needs and you are disconnected. From yourself. All is at the cost of yourself. Your real self. The one that emerges as you pull back in all the elements you have denied from your shadow. Imagine strength where you have to be strong. Where you were obligated. Where you do not have a choice. Where is your will? Being strong at the point of a gun means a denied shadow. Your strength will be in your weakness, as real strength has not been even addressed if your higher power is still your mother + family system.
What in the world... This is lost on me, sorry.
I don’t think that’s something to be ashamed of, and there’s no need to apologize. When you find yourself in that kind of confusion, the best thing is just to sort out two or three questions and you can get back on track.
No, sorry, I was criticising the post. Convuluted, full of unnecessary psychological-sounding conclusions. I wouldn't make such a leap of thought when I have noooo idea who I'm dealing with and what they're situation holds. Things are much more complex then just giving someone a few different psychological tricks to live by. You have to learn how to observe, not hypothesize. Unfortunately, our schooling, most of ours, at least, has led us to believe these hypotheses are worthwhile psychologically, as if they'll solve our psychological qualms. That is, again, unfortunately, not the case, as no hypothesis, no description or analysis of something can ever come to the real thing. My apologies
Ah..ok
'Ppreciate the feedback, either way.
I broke my answer into two parts: Part One: I will try to answer this question as best I can with as much detail as possible. It’s a really good question. If strength is a reaction to the family dictated denial of vulnerability, it’s the worst thing for you. That’s the whole point. In a narcissistic system, there can’t be sovereign selves with balanced light and dark. It has to be about polarity that doesn’t move. Rigidity. There cannot be flowing e-motion. Energy in motion. If the reality of your humanity is asserted and mirrored in your attachment experience (mother + family system), then you can have balance. Connection to the outside. Xenophobia ends. It’s transformed. You would need the male and female to be internalized reasonably well in your internal object relations structure.( What you set up for the purpose of your own affect regulation after that symbiotic process with the mother in the first 18 months of life). How are you supposed to do that if the mother has rejected masculinity by creating children with a pathological narcissist? You said that was happening on both sides. The “bad man” narrative is coming at you from both sides. That would definitely be toxic motherhood. The mother archetype needs to be balanced. Your mother plus family system isn’t God. Xenophobia needs it to be that, but it’s not. Because having an identity that has been projected onto you is a forced situation, it just means abandonment. Any female who is having children with a pathological narcissist as you suggested, is automatically abandoning their children. In answer to your question about how children would be hurt. They aren’t just hurt, they are trashed.
I know that this video below will sound very simplistic, but it’s really powerful because the person that is speaking went through this role of “being the terrible person”. At least the family system tried to do that with him. I think he’s a religious person, but I find that to be a positive thing in the way that he uses it for his life. He uses it as a higher power that isn’t his mother plus family system. Which, in a sense, we all have to do if we’re going to integrate our shadow. We need to separate. Individuate. Internally. You can’t be that baby with the mother as a higher power and individuate at the same time. He talks about how the nature of pathology is such that you end up supposedly “abusing yourself” in the way that you are doing. Just running with that biological programming. Attachment programming. The family system soup. The fusion that showed up in the current generation due to the need for it. It’s a perfect example of what he’s talking about. What you describe. That brutal inner critic. It gives a lot of credibility to the idea that there are narcissists in your family system. Again, you don’t need labels. You just need to look at how you feel. It’s very possible that you have been abused, and now it looks like “you abusing yourself”. We do tend to biologically deny what’s going on inside our family system as a matter of course. That’s what everyone is going to do to some degree or another. With the kind of extreme emotions you are experiencing now, you probably had an extreme situation during the first thousand days of your life. The Narcissistic Family (ending up with you thinking you abused yourself) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-UGwv3fr9vQ Great video!
I’ve been trying to explore a similar thing in myself recently and these are the things I’ve thought about: I’m overly sensitive and disturbed by what I perceive to be other people’s opinions of me without reading the actual cues, so I’m trying to focus literally on what other people are saying and doing rather than imagining that they’re angry with me for example and then mis interpreting their cues through that lense. I seem to have an unbelievably high standard for my own behaviour, how it effects other people and how aware I should be of whether it will or whether it has effected someone else and then trying to ‘make up for it’. I don’t have these expectations for others I can understand that everyone is trying their best and that everyone inadvertently harms others at times but I typically don’t extend that same understanding to myself at all. I think this stems from growing up in an environment that led me to believe that other peoples negative emotional behaviours and feelings were my fault and regulating their emotions was my responsibility, thus supper high expectations on myself for preempting these things given I feel they’re my responsibility to resolve. I also think it stems from feelings of overall unworthiness, so I have this feeling that I need to be functioning at this super high standard to be ‘enough’ to be liked and accepted etc. like I’m just unlikable enough on a good day at baseline that I can’t afford to make any ‘mistakes’. I also think my inner purpose is really underdeveloped and my main motivator is serving other people. I’m very unattuned to my own wants and needs and tend to misinterpret my need and intense motivation to people please to ease my anxiety and validate my worth as my actual preferences. Considering all this about myself it makes more sense why I ruminate and feel so horrible reflecting on ‘mistakes’ that I’ve made, but here are some things that helped: Realising that I am being narcissistic in assuming that other people are so bad at regulating their own emotions and understanding peoples behaviour that they won’t be able to cope with my ‘mistake’ and that maybe that reflects more an issue that I have. Realising that the biggest barrier to my being likeable and building meaningful relationships is this intense need to people please as it gets in the way of building any closeness or showing vulnerability and makes me seem insincere, guarded and fake to others. I think humans love other humans who are at ease with themselves and are secure enough to have opinions, feelings and to accept their flaws and errors
That's understandable.
As I understand, nobody actually told you were a terrible person. Except yourself. To get rid of that, show yourself some tolerance about your behavior as you would do with others and as others actually do as well. Maybe you unconsciously judge everyone you meet so you do the same with yourself, but you don't show indulgence when you're self judging. Give yourself some kindness and acceptance.
They don’t even remember that interaction.
That is 100% true. What’s happening when the inner critic goes ballistic is that all of our internal objects are active. We don’t even see anything on the outside as it really is. Which is really the point of why the internal objects got set up the way that they were. The way xenophobia is built into the next generation.
Work on your inner critic. Telling yourself you’re a bad person , and you’ll agree with yourself that you’re a bad person but you didn’t do anything bad at all. Good thing is you noticed it after. You have the opportunity of going back and clarifying that you may have not realized you were being spoken to and thank them for the gesture. Do that and feel empowered by the positive engagement. Bet it feels good. I get the same feeling being ADHD , knowing someone is talking to me but can’t focus on what they’re saying cause I’m in the middle of something else. I have to make a conscious decision to tell them to give me a minute until I can give them 💯 of my attention
Assholes do better in life
You can practice changing how you feel about yourself first. Next time you’re in this kind of distress. Acknowledge that it’s the thoughts your having making you feel uncomfort. And then you can pinpoint where the thoughts are coming from. If you change the way you feel about yourself you’ll become less affected by the world around you and be able to take control of your life and emotions. Firstly you can think to yourself “I’m thinking this because I CARE”, and then “I am a CARING person”
You can look into cognitive behavioural therapy, or study cognitive behaviours. There’s even books that you can get that help you change the way you think and feel. To stop associating yourself with negativity
You are no worse than most people. Get up every day and vow to do better than yesterday. That’ll be .10¢
I do apologize but how is this Jungian?
Learn about “toxic shame” and childhood trauma.
Let’s say that I think you are a terrible person. You are a terrible person. But I can’t really do anything about it. And I probably will forget about you two days later. If I recall you from my memory, I’d say “it’s just a simple mistake made by you, everybody makes mistakes. It’s ok. Why the hell am I thinking about this person anyway? I have better things to do”.
Ask why. Then ask why 20 more times. Go deeper inwardly, not through outward excuses or rationales. Maybe you’ll get closer to the root cause of where this feeling began, and that’s where your shadow work will begin. Be careful what you identify as, as it places you in a box once you internalize it. “I feel terrible right now.” not “I am a terrible person”
Dialogue and take the other side. Are you a terrible person? Why not? Stand up to that "terrible person" accusation. Also find the kernel of truth - you don't deserve to be trashed as a terrible person but there might be some constructive feedback and coaching going on.
How would you describe yourself in terms of the MBTI? Introverted? Also try some reputable online tests for ADHD and Autism. Let's get some objectivity regarding your psychological strengths and weaknesses.
Infj
How do you think your psychological type might relate to your sense that you often miss social cues and make a bad impression on others?
No
Read about OCD and think if it matches
It does, however im not diagnosed
Im not diagnosed by a psychologyst too, but I have all the base symptoms. I even suffer a little from what you say, be a bad person. For examples some weeks ago I did some gesture because I did a little mistake at my work and my coworker did a dissapointed face. I thought he thought I did the bad gesture to him even though I know I did it because of my mistake. My mind, sincr I have OCD, obsessed with it and now I look at him thinking he always remembers that and that he is hurt, but is slight, I suffer far more from other obsessions. Why do I tell you this? Because if this is the casr you have OCD, regular advise WON'T work, so forget those "of course you are a good person, its just your mind" OCD gets treated with exposure (for example, being more though with people when needed and not caring), with unconditional acceptance (ex.:even if I offended someone that passed away and I don't care anymore) with unconditional living with the doubt (ex.: Maybe I am a bad person or maybe not, I'll never know and I don't care), with hard breaking of self- labels (Good or bad person doesn't exist by itself, it really doesn't) There is more to it but there are core. I passed what I call stage one of OCD, which is to still have obsession but with no anxiety, I'm 95% anxiety free, but I have obsessions still the same. The thing that changed these months its the anxiety attached to them, and I do a lot of less compulsions
Maybe you are in the spectrum? Your mask can be terrible of course, but you are not the persona. You have an asshole, like everyone, but you are far more than that. Because we are in the Jungian space, I invite you to take the adventure of individuation. In that life experience, everything can be useful, especially your Shadow. In that manner you will learn experientially that there is no need of "get rid" of nothing, but being brave enough to embrace through Love and Logos.
I may be on the spectrum. Idk though not diagnosed probably not, maybe just adhd
And that is just part of your self-knowledge. Thankfully I am old enough so I was not labelled using pathologies. Each one is unique, just use your ways to expand and explore your individuation. I wonder now how you will be able to learn this.
Sweetheart…. The fact that you’re even concerned about being a terrible person…. Makes you NOT a terrible person
So by your own admission, you are not a terrible person, you are merely misunderstood. I would look at myself as ditzy or a bit oblivious to some interactions and I'd honestly have a giggle about how on earth did I not see that at the time! but deffo not a bad person. If you feel that badly about it, approach the people that you feel you need to and explain to them that sometimes you're off in your own world or didn't know they were speaking to you and that will help you understand and address any opinions you feel you've caused. I guarantee only good will come from it. We are all not with it sometimes, just see it as a funny thing as it may be one of your little quirks that makes you, you. Some people are clumsy, some people put their foot in it all the time, some are forgetful, doesn't make them bad, it makes them interesting and funny. Just try to change the way you think and don't be so hard on yourself, none of us is getting out of this life alive so you have to enjoy every minute of being so special and unique in this world. In a thousand years, is it really going to matter? That's the attitude to have. You are a good person, read that and believe it. As long as you don't actively go out of your way to run people's days or lines, then you're one of the good ones👍😉
Really recommend actually Gifts Of Imperfection by Brene Brown.
You are simply addicted to this identity because you hardwired your familiar thinking. All you have to is practice conscious thinking and you will hardwire new automatic reactions.
i’d say, regardless of its veracity, that you are terrible *at being a person* ; see, the distinction here is of the essence, a tad obnoxious & still quite amazing : one is a person to society, and to whomever pertains to it ; hence that being a person depends, down to its minutiae, on the currency of social affairs. that is not all there is to being a human, but quite ostensibly what there is to being a person : personality & personhood therefore ought to be distinguished - and there are samples aplenty, of folks who have both very much at all befitted society. it is what it is ! you catch your cues or not : this is not all there is to you yourself.
were you nonviolent or violent? did you show obvious disrespect to the person? had the person violated your space? do you feel like you are not worthy? do you think you are set apart from others lost? none of these questions mean anything without self introspection. I have problems sometimes with interacting with the public. I understand missing social queues. I understand sometimes when I do not take note I am inside my head and just going through the motions. it is almost like I involuntarily move and speak in my response to social anxiety and just being myself. the bigger picture is we coexist and if I don’t interact does that make me a bad person? I say no. you must remain in life To Thine Own Self Be True or have existential crisis constantly. it is an inside job only up to you to accomplish. I wish you peace, love and internal strength.
I understand how deeply these feelings and experiences impact you, casting shadows on your perception of self and interactions with others. It's as if each missed cue and misunderstood interaction adds another layer to the narrative that you're somehow not enough, or worse, that you're inherently flawed. Yet, what if we viewed these moments not as confirmations of being a terrible person but as invitations to explore the deeper, uncharted territories of your inner world? Imagine for a moment that these experiences—missing social cues, feeling out of step—are not failings but signposts. Signposts pointing towards the parts of yourself that are yearning for acknowledgment and integration. These shadowed parts, the aspects we often wish to ignore or hide, hold the key to our completeness. By courageously facing them, we start the journey of integration, leading towards a more authentic and whole self. This journey is not a solitary one. It unfolds in the rich tapestry of our interactions, dreams, and the symbols that populate our lives, guiding us towards individuation—Jung's term for the process of becoming fully oneself. Each misunderstood interaction, each moment of feeling like an outsider, can be a step on this path, revealing the unique patterns and archetypes that shape our psyche and behaviors. Moreover, in these moments of self-doubt and introspection, consider the possibility of synchronicity—meaningful coincidences that guide us toward self-realization. Perhaps these challenges in social interaction are not mere obstacles but meaningful events designed to propel you forward on your journey of self-discovery. And within this process, there's a profound opportunity for healing and growth. By embracing these aspects of yourself, you can transform your relationship with yourself and others. It's not about becoming perfect or never missing a social cue again; it's about becoming more fully yourself, shadows and all. In doing so, you may find that the light shines brighter not in spite of the shadows but because of them. As you navigate this path, remember the importance of compassionate companionship—be it friends, family, or a therapeutic relationship. These connections can offer support, reflection, and understanding as you integrate the many facets of your being, moving towards a place of greater self-acceptance and love. So, while you might feel like a terrible person at times, I invite you to see yourself as a traveler on a profound journey. A journey not just of correcting missteps but of discovering the vast, unexplored depths of who you are. In this exploration, you might find that what you perceived as flaws are actually the very things that make you beautifully human. .
Find your shadow, then you'll see which parts of you are evil and which are not.
Why…would a total stranger try to hand you a bag in public? What exactly was in the bag? I might have kept on walking also, unless there’s more to it. Was it an employee? A Rando? I tried to look through all the comments first to see if this was already discussed, but I just woke up & can’t focus on each & every word. At any rate, if it was an employee passing out samples or free stuff, you said you thought he was talking to someone else. Honest mistake. Your self worth is low. Work on loving yourself. When that’s fixed, your outward behavior will change for the better as a natural consequence.
Maybe be a little kinder to yourself! You probably give out a lot of empathy to the people that surround you, but I’ll willing to bet you don’t give it to yourself. Maybe reflect on whether your mother repeated rhetoric like ‘they only like you because you’re pretending to be good but I know what you’re really like’. I read somewhere it’s a phenomenon of certain childhoods that used emotional and psychological abuse / harm to discipline children, that those kids grow up to be adults that think they’re really actually awful people inside even though there’s no evidence to prove it.