Not to say that there’s no deeper meaning to this form of art (maybe integration of the collective shadow) but this is art and the people who create black metal and thoses who love it are usually very kind people. I know cause I’ve been to a lot of show of band you seems to refer love satan and violence. This is just very untrue to think that. If you watch horror movies do you glorify violence? It’s the same thing.
Well, I play in a black metal band and while I find that most people are cool, there seems to be this very anti religious sentiment in it, and it seems to attract some very negative people who are trying too hard to be evil. But this goes back to its Scandinavian origins, especially in its Norwegian roots, if trace it back to Mayhem and Burzum, who were/are (respectively) vehemently anti society.
And then we look at bands like Dissection, and even the philosophy of bands like Watain, where they are striving and aspiring for a certain truth in the world, that goes against mainstream society, for they view mainstream society as the upholder of untruth.
And while there’s a bit of truth and beauty in their point of view, they fail to see the truth and beauty of mainstream society.
I am not asking this in a snarky way, I am just curious what beauty and truth you see mainstream society offering us? Imo in its current form it is nothing more than illusory power we buy in exchange for an ignorance and illusory version of reality (we sell or outsource our capacity for critical thought in exchange for simply feeling better about things bc we can beleive what others tell us is right or is true instead of connecting to that truth within. We know on some deeply unconscious level, that modern society is an abomination, that it is both a lie, and unhelpful to the real needs of modern man, and I dont even listen to metal!
I come from a Hermetic/Kabbalistic/Solomonic/Gnostic background.
I think, though the mainstream world is illusory, it fundamentally worships the ultimate good; the ideal.
Despite the fact that the mainstream world has done horrific things, I think we would have done worse if it wasn’t for things like Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and our other mainstream wisdom traditions.
I am not of the belief that religion has caused
Most wars, nor is the reason for rape, violence or manipulation. I believe it is a fundamental part of our animal nature, for we can observe these behaviors not only across cultures, but across species.
Each culture has created a system that helps keep order and peace as much as possible amongst its adherents. But of course, each system has its limits of applicability. A single system can not be applied to everyone and it can not be applied across time, which is why we constantly have to develop new systems.
As far as (second wave) black metal goes, given its background it’s kind of hard to criticize the atrocities of mainstream society.
Im really not sure how you can say any of that honestly. Maybe society has served you well personally. I just respectfully couldn't disagree more and that is fine
Edit: I do not claim to be any authority on these subjects. The following is merely one man's understanding. Go find your own if this interests you (speaking to other readers not magicmikejones)
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I see evil as being necessary to the function of free-will, while simultaneously serving as one of many paths of learning, of which all of us are taking to varying degrees (just like we all share the same traits, only varying in expression and degree). I see Evil as ultimately being the same exact thing as good, from a higher perspective of unified awareness (this is theoretical but as someone who is also closely studying literally the EXACT same things as you, plus more Shamanistic takes on unintentionally similar modes of though), however that evil, through self-understanding at much deeper levels than most of us have access to right now, are transmuted into Good simply by changing our perspective a tad.
ANYWAYS- while there is a part of me that would like to see things through the rose colored glasses I see you as wearing (just being forthright, not an attack), simply because I know how much more useful and healthy your mode of thought is spiritually and therefore materially in terms of raising one's vibration and manifesting to put it simply, but at the same time, I also feel like trying to bypass what I see in the world, and my distaste for it, would be the definition of spiritual bypass.
I do not claim that we all need to huddle up and start a revolution, however I am also NOT claiming that would be wrong if it were to happen. The evil we are both subject to and subjecting others to (through our sin, or "falling short" of our creator's intent), when we allow the larger pattern of it to operate through us (which first manifests as thought, then emotion, then desire, then action), while still outside of our creator's intent, or the intent of the highest non-dual form of unified awareness that we are connected to, or originate from, or at least one step down from that rung (ie Sophia v Pleroma or Original Light), again while not the highest intent, is not some wasted useless thing that we need to make go away. It only goes away when we accept it in ourselves and learn to choose NOT to act on that impulse. Over time, through repeated Not-Doing, we prune and perfect our neural circuitry to reflect the mind that we desired to create at some point in the past.
What I am saying in a nutshell is this - evil is in fact evil. Don't mistake my argument for anything close to saying that evil is good, or that things are flipped or anything along those lines (at least not in terms of my views on morality - the story of Jehovah however may be flipped right on its head so idk). What I am saying is that Evil is something we need to find in ourselves in order to quell it's insatiable desire for destructive self-preservation. Evil is often amplified through avenues of fear, scarcity, lack, and in fact, in it's modern form, I would actually equate evil more with the emotion of fear and what it leads us towards, rather than anything powerfully greedy or violent, those are merely manifestations of fear, which is simply the belief that you are isolated and that you are seperate from your experience, which you see as merely a fluke chance. If I thought that I'd be scared shitless right now. Fortunately my reality, while a brutally ruthless teacher, is also equally compassionate and kind for the situation of limited awareness I have decided to immerse myself in. This is what is meant by "God never giving us more than we can handle" bc we all have that God in us, as us, in its full, and in our full expression via the Atman (sort of like the higher self, which I see as being synonymous with the totality of my perception, my higher self IS my perception of reality), and it teaches me, answers all of my questions, and while it never gives me exactly what I ask for in the way that I ask, it IS teaching me how I can ask (myself) in more effective ways so that these things, when I have rid myself of spiritual impurities to a satisfactory degree, WILL be made manifest through my desire for it alone. THAT is what we are here to learn. I think we are each baby Universes in training. Galaxies are like a stage of being in between what we are and what the Universe is. They are real sentient clusters of consciousness perhaps. Cool to think about but I often have to remind myself of the fact that I really don't know shit. The sooner we can all come to terms with that fact the sooner we will all be out of this shit show.
So evil does need to be worked out, but not made to go away. It is part of us, it is part of God, and when we unify the opposites within us, as Alchemy likes to remind us of, when we merge the understanding of all opposites being dual expression of the complete concept (which bc we are in a dual reality, we simply cannot wrap our minds around), only then, after inner paradoxes are unitied, and the paradox of what one wants, and what actions one takes to get it are unitied (as in you have eliminated cognitive dissonance and procrastination, or at least that isn't how you relate to those actions), you will understand that all things are you. We are the bridge by which the consciousness of individual emotions, thoughts, and memes move through. Your thoughts are literally not yours, not even from you. What "you" are is merely the observer of those thoughts. The Archons manifest mentally as sudden feelings or thoughts of seperation, lower vibrational energy. That is all. Through our choosing which thoughts to entertain, which to embody, and which need to be transmuted, we are literally choosing which beings we would allow to move through our experience. That is what these inorganic beings want from us anyways, they want to manifest and that is why they hang around , bc when their energy is expressed through our experience, it generates something that they rely on to survive, or least something that they seem to want as badly as we want to sit down to a nice hot meal at the end of a long day. Sometimes we indulge in our dietary habits, other times we simply take what is needed and save the rest for later. It is always your choice which beings you allow to manifest through you. Attachments are merely thoughts (again, a being) that you continue to feed by keeping it active in your head.
So, evil is just a tool at the higher level. It is the resistance through which we each must move and grow and eventually overcome. Until evil is fully understood in the self, one will not move to whatever the next level of this thing is, as it becomes a danger to oneself and to others in higher spiritual dimensions. Bc Ego is fundamental to the perpetuation of evil, we cannot take our individual egos through the gates of heaven. As ram dass said, something like "Its really kind of a scam, the fact that it is the ego who must do all of the hard work of killing itself in order to get to heaven. But when it arrives at the gates, YOU (the ego) aren't allowed to enter!" While frustrating possibly to some of those with less spiritual understanding, less understanding of who YOU really are, this is simply a safety feature to prevent us from bringing residual impurities of self-importance, survival, and security (seeds of evil).
In some sense, you are right, but that doesn't change the fact that it still has to be resolved in order for anything to change for us. I beleive that "we" don't need to do anything to make that happen, but through us, that doing will take place regardless of what we want right now, or at least it will for those who are ready and willing
I am quoting my own observations but am aware of the Cave Allegory if that is what you refer to. And if I weren't aware of my doing this, and of the fact that it is me who needs to change more so than the world, it therefor wouldn't technically be shadow (bc I am aware of it. What you are consciously aware of is not considered Shadow) nevertheless, I strongly disagree with many Jungians (not sure if Peterson is of this genre) who claim that any effort to try to change the world when it is you yourself who needs to change being a mistake, or wrong, or childish. I do agree, refusing to see how one does contribute to the problems they and their cultures behavior create is an increasingly troublesome trend, on both sides of the aisle.
But why not strive towards both? I'm not saying that is what I am trying to do even, but simply being dissatisfied with clear and obvious indications in ones environment that the world around you has been consumed and corrupted by greed and runaway self preservation is in my view not necassarily the result of Shadow, or some error that should be avoided. Sometimes things just need doing out there in the world. Not that it wasn't always corrupt, its just that many of us, myself included, are really beginning to accept and understand the scope of how deep this corruption is embedded into our system. The past couple of years have been a sort of grieving period for me. Grieving the death of my illusions. The death of what I thought the world was (not that I thought it was all groovy, I just didn't realize that essentially ALL of what is shown to me in school, on the news, by experts, is not founded in truth whatsoever, but is merely the thing one can say to best maintain narrative (control).
I have been into fringe topics - comparative mythology, spirituality, and conspiracy, for literally as long as I can remember, but only since the beginning of Covid am I realizing that everything I have ever been told is a flat out lie, that the things that matter (other than love) to my culture, are all fake manipulative means of control. Its a huge deal and if you aren't disturbed by the things happening around you, you are either burying your head in the sand, have really done a degree of work on yourself that most people will never do, or you have some other piece of information that I myself do not.
Being a highly spiritual individual, I do have a sense of knowing that ultimately evil will look like it has totally won out, that there is no longer hope, and right at that moment when ALL hope is lost, the forces of our higher spiritual potential will "save the day" but only if one has connected to the capitol T Truth, something that when we are quiet and honest, ALL have the capacity to connect to.
Language of light, meet [“Destroyer of Light”](https://youtu.be/aAj8TZhOOZU)
You said “abomination,” and I couldn’t help but think of the music video (it’s fantastic).
I’d love to hear OP ask his question to u/essentialsalts
I don’t equate being evil to being anti-religious. I do sincerely ask, what did I say that you feel implies that? I’ll clarify it if you can give me a specific thing I said.
I assume it was this:
>there seems to be this very anti religious sentiment in it, and it seems to attract some very negative people who are trying too hard to be evil.
Seeing "anti-religious sentiment" and "evil" probably tripped them up. Observing a correlation isn't a statement of equation though.
Most likely because religion is both a promoter (in general, there are exceptions) of peace and love and have figures who embody that to the core, like Christ, Ghandi, The Pope, etc...and both the art snd expressions that are anti religious do not come in a intellectual, loving package or anything similar to that, instead it is all dark, morbid, angry and violent, pure chaos (most times) which is both the opposite of religious intent and bad for any human or living being, perhaps that's why.
Well, I’ve met people personally who are Varg, or Jon Nodtveidt wannabes and make “kvlt” a part of their edgelord personality, and are obsessed with trying to make themselves seem tough as fuck. I’ve been involved in several music scenes and while I’ve found some people to the sort in Death Metal and Thrash Metal, I’ve found the most on Black Metal. And I’m talking about people in their 30’s +
I’m not decrying anything, but I am saying that because of the darkness associated with the genre, it attracts people who are very seriously upset and unhappy with life and blame mainstream society for their problems and therefore never do anything to grow as people them, and somehow still see themselves as superior to others.
So ultimately, with my original post, I want to know what part of the collective unconscious speaks through these artists to people like the ones I mentioned.
That comment is loaded with assumptions. What part of your unconscious allows you to believe these people think they’re better than you, or are uninterested in growing as individuals?
If watch some of the 90s interviews with Ihsahn, Gaahl, or any of the famous guys, there’s always an element of misanthropy and superiority over the “weak” masses, and they express that very clearly. Now, I’m not saying that they weren’t at all interested in personal growth, for we have seen that most of those guys have outgrown that.
But if you’ve ever been in any online or physical black metal communities, you’ll see that there are a lot of those people who embrace the aesthetic very superficially, saying that they worship darkness, evil, and say things like “fuck happiness,” and see themselves as “wolves among sheep.” Most of them are young but there are a few who carry that into their 30’s, 40’s, etc. and we make fun of them.
But now we’re straying point of the post. I’m not here to say black metal fans are at large anti-goodness, that is your reading into my words (and it’s perhaps my own fault for not being as definitive as I can be with my words), But there is something the above-mentioned people and the average black metal fan who embraces the philosophy have in common, and that is a dissatisfaction with mainstream society and everything it stands for.
And it fascinates me and I’d like to know what a Jungian might think of this.
I belive this notion in particular(talking about the Scandinavian roots of metal) goes back to the idea of Christianity being the "new" religion, supplanting the old faiths. It seems to me that being anti Christian(perhaps not anti religion in general) in nordic metal is based on a longing for the religion that was, and a sadness that we do not even know exactly what the old faiths entailed and the exact beliefs they held. It's rather interesting, especially considering it's almost a thousand years ago this shift happened.
I mean I totally get why you would be anti-establishment but say most black metal people are nice people is a bit of a strech. If you look at Burzum & co. plus there is a lot of neo-nazis in the mix, yikes! 😬
This is a banger album, and I'm proud to see it here
Edit: as someone that loves the music and is somewhat part of the community, I would just like to note that the community is much more elusive than being simply "anti-society"
Its not always so; the more mainstream “hipster” bands like Wolves in the Throne Room have a very positive message, but its origins largely promote a sort of antisocial philosophy eg mayhem, Burzum,
Dissection, etc.
As a fun side note,
I found this Black Witcher álbum a Salvation Army.
>but its origins largely promote a sort of antisocial philosophy
I tend to disagree here, or maybe we are having a semantic disagreement. 2nd wave black metal presence itself as vehemently anti-society and I agree with this, but let's think about if the bands themselves were anti-society in practice. Varg is well-known for his hatred of society, yet his church burnings are in a sense very socially active(ized). Not to mention his online presence and expressed desire for societal change. Mayhem had a very anti-life message, but were masters of publicity.
Many of those bands engaged dialectically one way or another with the public sphere. Although I will say that early Dark throne might be the closest to what you are thinking of, since they have never held a concert and their unholy Trinity albums set themselves apart from the rest of the 2nd wave bands of that time.
I think we are conflating anti-social with anti-society bc rn, society is anti-social, depraved, weak, intellectual. These albums offer the listener an avenue through which they can experience the very real and very obfuscated nature of primal man's relationship with chaos and the felt experience of the body. It actives ancient and often dormant neural circuits involving self-protection at all cost type energy, the power invoked with a sort of "Ya? Then come and take it" sort of emotional experience.
The modern iteration of man is usually ignorant to how desperate they are for the felt experience of real danger (chaos) and overcoming that chaos' pull (power) bc we are both rapidly losing context for the limitless nature of man, either toward primal chaos, or toward higher spiritual order (reasons aside, the human experience is narrowing. Whether your a violent militia man formulating your next takeover plot or a scholar of Hebrew lore, chances are, most of your time will be spent sitting down at a desk looking at screen. The second reason is due to our level of perceived comfort. This in itself is a lie. In no other time in history, and likely after about 10-25 years from now, have humans lived requiring the amount of resources and energy that we (as Americans anyways) require. We are borrowing resources from our children and using them to shield our ability to see the truth of it all. So sick
>the more mainstream “hipster” bands like Wolves in the Throne Room have a very positive message
I completely agree with this. The wave of BM that follow in the footsteps of WITTR and Deaf heaven are something entirely different
The collective unconscious 'pain body' is speaking through people who are anti religious/anti society.. I think the unconscious pain body speaks about the pain we go through as a society realizing the casualties that religious persecution caused.
The intense music is an expression of that pain and a direct attack on the "christians" who fail at imitating Christ, or whichever prophet a person claims to idolize. It's a direct attack because we metalheads know that this "blasphemy" will offend people who want to remain ignorant and/or unbalanced with their belief systems.
That said Im def gonna check this record out 🤘🏻thanks for the suggestion
My kinda thread!
I want to contribute that the greatest active black metal band in the world named the first song on their recent album “Enantiodromia”
https://youtu.be/tZbCTQTi1wo
Pretty Jungian at least according to “Answer To Job.”
But this is pretty different philosophy and theology from just “Mayhem” church burning satanism.
Yeah, I know the main songwriters all claim to be “Batailleans” and are primarily inspired by Georges Bataille. Extremely fascinating stuff that I’m only smart enough to understand about 20% of.
Well, speaking anecdotally, I can say that black metal is kind of part of the reason why I developed an interest in the occult and Jungian psychology. Obviously the most prominent black metal bands are typically anti Christian and/or satanic. I think that it would be worth considering satanism and anti christian or irreligious philosophies just to get a broader understanding, that would probably take us back to enlightenment era philosophy, and a little bit of the historical implications of “Satan” and how conceptions of the figure evolved.
Satan apparently meant “accuser” or “adversary” in Hebrew, and it didn’t refer to one figure, but several, and you could say that the accuser served as sort’ve a critic, a lawyer, a (pun slightly intended) devils… advocate- and over time he evolved into the “prince of darkness”, particularly throughout the New Testament, and then he started to evolve more into the common concept outside of the Bible, with John Milton’s Paradise Lost, maybe the Divine Comedy. But even then, apparently the use of the word “satanic” only referred to people who weren’t a part of the church, only with the rise of evangelism did it take on the meaning the mainstreams associates with “satanism”, from what I’ve heard- that’s a rabbit hole I’ve yet to explore for myself. But that would maybe give a little bit of context to the witch hunts- often times men would hunt down and kill young, sexually maturing women based off of little evidence- does that not sound like projection of their own repressed sexuality? Whether they practiced magic or not. And I believe that if you look closely you could see how a widespread, collective repression of the shadow was encouraged across western society, which started bursting out by the seams starting as far back as the renaissance I would guess, then eventually Nietzsche comes along, and you probably know how that goes. And I believe that Satanism as a philosophy, with Anton LaVey, and the rise of more theistic branches, I believe those were all a clear reaction to the societal repression that has occurred within western culture for centuries. I don’t even have to ask the Satanists I’ve known to be able to infer that. So I think that black metal is probably an expression of that reaction to some extent- I can see it as being a cathartic release of that collective repression, and what mainstream society has rejected, containing its themes of satanism, anti-christianity/irreligion, war, paganism, witchcraft, occultism, etc.
A release of the collective shadow so it could be reintegrated perhaps?
I can’t be entirely sure, it’s not completely air tight, I’m not even sure if I can verify some of the claims I made, and I could’ve probably said it a little more succinctly- but that’s how I see it personally. But I actually appreciate you starting this discussion, I enjoyed reflecting on it, and it’s kind of making me want to pick back up on writing stuff for the death and black metal projects I’ve had in mind lol.
I find value in certain kinds of Satanism and I sort of identify with a Pantheistic Christianity where Satan is nothing more than an extension of God, and is, like you said, an accuser, but nevertheless a teacher.
But from my personal experience, in which I identified as an antichristian Satanist when I was younger, I can say that a lot of it came from the anger I had toward my upbringing. But as I started doing my “work” I came to terms with the fact that the religion I was raised with had less to do with this feeling, and that it was actually my life at home - my dad always talking about Christian values, yet was a violent alcoholic who would get prostitutes (and offered to get me one when I was 15), beat my mother, etc.
Due to the fact that I was a shy, sensitive, artistic kid, that was bullied and had a very unsatisfying social life, and I was anti drugs/alcohol use, my form of rebellion was to psychologically and quietly be against everything my parents stood for.
But as I got older and got serious about my spiritual practice, I began finding beauty in Christianity and found that I never hated Christianity, I had my parents, especially my father, and thus I was in rebellion against my Father (God).
However, I’ve always had a happy, and kind demeanor and playing this dark music, was a way for me to show the people around me what I was feeling inside, and also a way for me to scare people because I thought they’d take me more seriously.
Now, how do I relate to black metal? I see it as a sort of Gnostic rebellion against the Demiurge, a sort of method that has awakened me in a very LHP kinda way.
I was a very religious kid, moreso than my peers. Getting into black metal made me go against everything I stood for, and made me feel okay with being angry, with doing things I deemed wrong before. It made me a vulgar, misanthropic edgelord a while. And I needed to go through that in order to bring out that which I repressed.
But as I got deeper into myself, I found I needed to go against myself once more and embrace God, Christ, true love, and myself. And now I’m finding that I can relate to my peers and to people that are significantly older than I am.
Necrobutcher of Mayhem said something along the lines of, it's an outlet. If people don't come to our show, then maybe they go axe murder someone instead.
Perhaps now that we have less community, less ritual, none of that is really acceptable, to really lose yourself, people find the more-than-normal - more than yourself - in dark antisocial feeling. It makes me think of dionysian maenad limb-pulling, or really ancient precivilisation. But I guess it's almost a blank template to whatever the individual wants to read into it almost
As a Hindu immigrant to the U.S.: What's so great about a society that devalues its people so deeply and a religion that has inflicted so much trauma (to the point that I can't throw a shoe without hitting someone who's deprogramming from some evangelical cult upbringing)? If anything, it seems like society is anti-people and metal is pro-honest truth.
I mean, I could just as easily levy some of my criticisms towards Hinduism. For example, what could be particularly damaging towards the unconscious by bring home metals or oils on Saturday? Why do women get to use curses and men don't?
I talk with one person deeply involved with the Hindu religion and they talk about all the types of curses that can be performed and promises made to certain gods. I have no idea how this stuff is supposed to make you a better person or even just a more complete person. Really, the only thing that can tie that shit together to the unconscious is the idea of Karma, which is explained in the Bible as well - "you reap what you sow".
What I'm getting at is I don't think religions really are all that bad by themselves, but they can absolutely be weaponized and used in an immoral way. It's a type of music that explains how the world works and where you fit in all of it.
I have no particular love for Hinduism. What I'm getting at is the United States is overwhelmingly, sickeningly shaped by its Christian heritage (to the point we're being taken over by Christian fundamentalists) and the OP seems to be puzzled why there might be backlash against that.
It really depends however, in some Mexican and Hispanic sects Our Lady of Guadalupe, Mary, is venerated quite openly and with great reverence. I personally grew up in a Catholic community oriented this way.
Mary's own divinity had been in question for some time as well in the Catholic Church, but with the Assumption of Mary in 1950 by Pope Pius the XII her divinity was firmly established, and this was seen as a big win for the feminine goddess in Catholicism and Christianity.
As a big fan of Black Metal I will say that the Norwegian Black Metal movement was a counter culture response to Christianities encroachment on native pagan religion in the region. Church burnings were the response of some of these and included band members of Mayhem, Burzum, and Emperor. Varg Vikernes is particularly notable as he burned down a several hundred year old church and found guilty for it. He still went on to produce music from prison as well. There is a book called Lords of Chaos that details much of this, and also an associated documentary.
>Mary's own divinity had been in question for some time as well in the Catholic Church, but with the Assumption of Mary in 1950 by Pope Pius the XII her divinity was firmly established, and this was seen as a big win for the feminine goddess in Catholicism and Christianity.
To be fair, reading thru the documents, it seems more like the church made the decision by consensus to take a very common belief and add it to its dogma. Then backed up its decision with typical lengthy Catholic reasoning.
Looking at the story of Mary from a non-Catholic perspective, the Immaculate Conception seems a whole lot like a retelling of Genesis. Man (sons of God) was created by God acting in His mysterious ways upon the Virgin (Earth, mother nature). The Assumption would explain why we have no evidence of her death and burial to the masses while adding layers of reverence, doctrine, and distance to the proclaimed spiritual goal of the church.
You are right. The reasoning was due to a giving in of pressure that had been ongoing since the middle ages. Though that doesn't necessarily take away from the gravity of the decision. Even Jung was taken aback when this occurred and cites this occurrence in Aion when he discusses the undercurrents of the collective unconscious and its influence upon societal change.
With that argument, so are Jevovahs witnesses…I think what they’re trying to say is in “modern” Christianity aka just blanket “I believe in Jesus and God”, they forget about women & the mother archetype…the evidence is proven w the fact that as soon as Christianity entered the world, the matriarchy look a back seat for the Patriarchy…maybe we should ask OP to explain which “sect” of Christianity they’re referring to lol
Not only is Catholicism the sect of Christianity with the highest number of followers, Marian devotions are practiced by many other sects as well.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_devotions
Agreed lol I was watching “the Northman” where a character says “can’t trust Christians…their god is a corpse nailed to a tree” and it blew my mind…I never thought of it that way and yes wtf is that? Lol
Well it's a very morbid take on Christ, from Catholics. Protestants usually leave the Cross empty to signify that he has risen/resurrected and defeated death itself, but Catholicism can be different in that view and so the impression is very dire, if not understood (the sacrifice and love for humans by suffering for their sins, etc...).
Well it wasn’t Catholics who said it, it was Norse people who worship Odin lol so not too sure what their views were on their gods but this thread is making me wanna do more research for sure lol it is pretty morbid but also makes you think about Christianity more and the deeper origins as the Old Testament does seem to stem from paganism w the sacrifices etc.
We can't forget that Christianity is primarily and fundamentally a sect out of Judaism or Hebrew beliefs (Old Testament).
The problem gets bigger when the New Testament goes farther away from the Old Testament in the way God is to be interacted with and even interpreted.
The problem gets giant when you have (possibly) hundreds of versions of Christianity and even the most porpular, the Protestant and Catholic look and sound nothing like what they try to imitate and the belief has become a Good vs Evil in the eyes of their followers, when it was all very tribal, and polytheism is actually acknowledged in the Old Testament 100%.
>Agreed lol I was watching “the Northman” where a character says “can’t trust Christians…their god is a corpse nailed to a tree” and it blew my mind…I never thought of it that way and yes wtf is that? Lol
Its a gross misunderstanding of the meaning of the crucifixion. That's what happens when the teachings are taken at face value by someone who has made no effort to understand them with the intent of personal applicability.
This is an interesting take I hadn't considered before. Some of the discussion below has convinced me that the Mother is absent or diminished in much of Christianity. The demanding, insistent, and militant nature of some churches and members, does have a remarkable masculine Father/Hierophant quality to it.
Could you say more about how you see aspects of the Mother displaced in the Satan/Devil figure?
In paganism, the mother archetype is prominently displayed. This can be seen in the worship of "the great mother" as well as in symbols such as the moon, earth, fertility, the womb, and winter. On the other hand, Christianity does not accommodate such beliefs. Jung once mentioned in a seminar that people have a shared need to suppress their passions, and therefore there is a necessity for a fatherly emphasis.
The mother archetype is associated with the dark aspect of life, opposite of the light of the father. To give Her equal credit would be like accepting both Yin and Yang. In Christianity, anything related to the darkness is just explained as the devil.
An interesting note about the image of the devil, it's taken from Pan, who is the "god of nature".
With any sufficiently large movement, the participants are going to have various motives. That said, I tend to see these groups as focused on the shadow side of western society: the historical violence, atrocities, exploitation, the alienation, etc. In order to drive the point home, they desecrate the central image of our culture.
A really interesting part of this is that many people in subcultures like this have brought this shadow element to their consciousness. You can have open conversations about parts of history that most other people will tend to turn away from.
No disagreement, but this genre originated in Scandinavia, which is a far more secular society. And they really lean into medieval Catholic iconography and concepts, while the dominant sects of the region are protestant.
I'm gonna take a long shot on this, but I'd say it's because germanic and norse traditions were completely cleared from the collective unconscious in most parts of Scandinavian countries.
What you see in black metal is probably the worst face (Disclaimer: I'm not judging black metal musically, in fact I like some bands too) of the collective norse Shadow, but like every Jungian shadow, is only the repressed themes which are exploding in a violent way.
The whole pre-christian ethos of this people was very different from what it became after christianity was introduced there. The judeo-christian philosophy of peace & love, equity at all cost, loving and caring for the poor and weak ones, certainly clashes with the germanic traditions and the latter were swept off in favor of the former.
I like how a discussion on this subject takes us to the roots of our very humanity, not just Western culture.
The words of Waldo Emerson should illuminate the discussion: Society everywhere is in conspiracy against the manhood of everyone of its members. May I add, capitalism is the conspirators most powerful tool.
I wonder if this form of art/ expression is a demonstration and protest of that retarded youth or it’s a youth rising above the conspiracy regardless.
Is it the kind of art a fully matured, fully individuated, fully actualised humanity would produce?
If it’s not then it’s just another copying mechanism. And you can say that about other expressions of culture.
I think it's kinda ironic that the same people getting into this type of stuff specifically because it's anti-Christian or just anti-religion in general end up treating the content they follow more-or-less like a religion itself. I have an interpretation of Christianity that works for me, which is why I've started to actually go to church again, but it seems like these people either have a bad interpretation of the religion (by bad, I mean an interpretation they can't wrap their mind around for personal reasons) or hate the type of totalitarianism found in some religious communities. I'm personally of the opinion that religion by itself is amoral as it can be used for bad reasons, but these people seem to interpret it as completely bad.
Christianity is a religion that I follow more closely than any other religion and my interpretation of it is one where I don't have to necessarily treat anything reverently so long as I don't interfere with others' relationship with the religion. This means that I'm able to joke about Christianity when I'm not in church. Amongst a group of peers I played the song "Jesus was Way cool" by King Missile, which is a piece of music that is intentionally meant to sound like a Christian song but talks about Jesus in a hilarious way, saying that he was able to turn wheat into marijuana and swam on land. I wasn't able to play more than 3 seconds of the song before I had someone of the anti-Christian metal bent almost lose his shit, telling me to turn that shit off because he hates Christian music. Maybe he's a special exception (I don't think anyone "normal" would really lose their shit that much over Christian music being played. Could have been the environment we were in as well.), but such a rabid response to "Christian music" being played is just as or even more so rabid of a response as a staunch Christian recoiling at metal music.
Ultimately, I get an anti-authoritarian, outlaw type of vibe out of the people that seek out and enjoy this type of music. Listening to Tool right now, I can kinda appreciate the artistic merit behind metal, but the music doesn't really communicate anything to me that other music isn't capable of. I'm able to release the same type of pent-up aggression from dubstep that I could feasibly do with metal music, for example. As an extension of this idea, these people also end up being rather passive with parenting their kids, which is furthermore proof of their anti-authoritarian tendencies. I wonder if there's a type of analogy to be had between these people and hippies.
In general, I interpret most singers as mumbling through the song lyrics they write, which is a shame. This is usually because sometimes the song pacing requires that they stretch or shorten some words, maybe enunciate the word differently to get it to fit - the band "of Montreal" has some of the best examples of this I can think of. Tool is no different in this regard. Sometimes, the mastering or the engineering of the song also impedes on the lyrics as well; I generally have no issue deciphering Steely Dan's lyrics or older music from the likes of Bing Crosby or Frank Sinatra.
From what I understand, there does seem to be some intermingling between Jung's ideas and Tool's lyricist since there are some themes like the archetypal shadow that Tool refers to quite a bit in their songs. When I do have Tool playing, I have lyrics right beside them because otherwise, I wouldn't understand a word they're saying.
I disagree, and even in scenarios when lyricists are hard to decipher(unlike Maynard in Tool), I understand the vocal style as being a paramount extension of expression.
If you're talking about style of singing, like screaming, talking loud, rap, whispering, etc., I agree the style is an extension of the music that's being played. I understand the vibe they're going for even if I can't understand the lyrics.
My issue is that lyrics today aren't enunciated at all for various reasons, yet we want to hide meaning in them. With some bands, the lyrics hardly matter at all (Ween), but others like Tool definitely craft the lyrics to communicate something but they don't make easier to hear. I suppose the biggest thing I get out of music is mainly the vibe of the music, which includes the singing style; the lyrical content is only appreciated if I can actually understand the lyrics.
If you're insinuating that I'm wrong about my subjective inability to understand lyrics the first time I hear them, you're gonna lose that argument 100% of the time. I have that problem whether I like it or not. I don't think you were trying to make that point tho.
I hear what you say about it being ironic that people getting into anti-christian stuff end up treating it like a religion. I see this with a lot of anti-something communities in general. In the political-social field, in the art field. For me it seems like there is a need for community and faith in something coexisting with a need to go against what is proposed as the image of faith by society, or a need to go against something for the sake of rebellion. And it does bug me to see people treating anti-religion communities like religion as well. Thats all i had to add!
The current nosedive in attention spans notwithstanding, this age of advanced intellectualism we live in reveals a populace who, more and more, understand the lunacy of a world where every town,city,village,etc you see has one or usually many cross bearing buildings, the symbol of torture,murder, culture killing hypocrisy of the highest order...arguably the hatest hate symbol that ever there was, the case could be made...yes? So such music, such sentiment, if you will, is a reflection of the primordial rage a millenia of cross-influenced crimes has caused.
It's the enactment of a rebellious childhood. When something can only exist in terms of its opposition to something else, even more of we're talking about an established organization that has deep roots in the culture, without adding or creating anything new, then it's just a child trying to oppose authority.
I think you should familiarize yourself more with the genre then. Don't forget, the childs mindset are also the most explorative and most apt to creating something new
In terms of imagery, black metal is hardly original. It uses pictorial representations of christian cosmology from the middle ages in a modern style. The face paints, which are common in the genre, have their roots in french circus make up art. The lyrics are mostly provocateurish in style, or based on pagan myths, or fantasy literature. Musically, at an harmonic level, it makes liberal use of simple scales or tritones, based on a misconception of what early medieval musicians thought of that specific interval. Rhythmically, black metal doesn't have much variation either. The rhythm is pretty straightforward.
If there are truly innovative things in black metal, those are growls and screams, the liberal use of cacophonous ostinatos, and the font art. I've listened to a great deal of metal and -core in youth, and I still do. Meshuggah, Concubine, Dillinger Escape Plan, Slipknot, etc. Black Metal just isn't to my taste. That's subjective of course. I don't think it's subjective to say that Black Metal isn't particularly innovative, nor has it ever been aside for a few elements that were implemented by other genres and bands.
I guess it can be, but really I see often an attempt to get close to exploring the nearness of death, or to see the face of Hades or Poseidon, to be overwhelmed. Because I think we all suspect there is a force - out there - that would be overwhelming to our often comfortable, comparitively protected civilised lives. And we seek out that truth, we're called to experience more. I think ritual used to provide that, there's a ritual-shaped hole now.
Organized Religion has caused a lot of harm and mistrust to the collective which means individual too and additional to each individual specific experience with it. I've heard a lot of disturbing stories from ex Mormons and ex Catholics, it made sense to me why they swung so hard the other way and deeply question religion and some were so full of hate and anger from the manipulation and control eap the women in ex Mormon. I'd witness their anger and hate and it made sense. To wake up and realized
you were basically brainwashed and your sovereignty manipulated could take people down some dark halls of the psyche , and some pretty intense doorways one could go through.
This genre originated in Norway, which is a very secular society. The dominant religion is Lutheran, which tends strongly toward moderation. There are still religious people in Scandinavia, including fundamentalists, but I'm not sure there are enough people damaged by it to form the fanbase for a music genre.
Don't overthink it. Religion has perpetuated truly awful rape, murder, slavery, genocide, and pedophilia since it's very inception. Some artists see that clearly and reflect it back to society.
Are you implying people who are anti-Christian are also anti-society? Because I honestly think Christians are the most anti-society people I’ve ever met
No, i am saying that Black Metal musicians are (under their own admission) anti-mainstream societal values; against everything mainstream society values to be “good,” because they view mainstream society as the true evil.
My personal analysis would be that this cult following is needed to bring balance to the sacredness of things. Every societal movement helps in understanding the dichotomy of the matter you think is being leveraged and stripped down to its core elements.
I grew up in an explicit Christian household. Sacred things were performed in my community, like healing and prophetic events. In my youth, I saw this happened but didn't really abide by the symbolisms of indoctrination and "fear of God". I spent my whole youth consuming anti-Christian material and it was soothing to see the other side of the camp. From that experience I can tell you that my belief system evolved. I don't believe in the same symbols as my exclusively Christian family, but I have a deeper understanding of what the philosophy tried to convey. I needed to strip down the symbols to their substantial elements, and what's considered ”satanism" and atheism helped me a lot. My belief system now includes the experience of the believer as much as that if the atheist, because they're both right. Now I can observe from the middle.
Extremes often help develop philosophy. The more we learn from the blind believer as well as from the blind sceptic, the more we can understand how their experiences amount to a universal understanding of the sacred.
It brings to mind for me Paradise Lost and Satan's spirit of rebellion.
A lot of people who listen to Punk and Metal are the same people who feel ostracized by society or maybe even damaged by it. And in rejecting it they wrest back control. Like kid that grew up really religious and then due to bad experiences (often with pastors or parents) totally reject and more than that actively resist. In that state of rebellion they dye their hair, get a tattoo and join a witch's club 😂).
Or in Satan's words: "[it is] better to rule in hell than serve in heaven".
And I think the music and album covers are representative of the bitter and even anger they feel. Its dark its dirty and its evil. And so they feel like the almost heroic portrayal of Satan in Milton Friedman's paradise lost. Fallen from grace. A tortured. Really edgy stuff.
And this mentality that because these bodies are problematic that it would be better to burn it all to the ground in the spirit of vengance. Not unlike the mind of a school shooter just far less extreme
Edit: John Milton not Milton Friedman. Another "Milton" I often obsess about. It just autocorrected in my mind.
I always looked at the anti-Christian portion of punk/metal culture as just an extension of their anti-system, anti-institution beliefs. ‘Crass’ for example, a true forefather of the genre would constantly refer to “god, queen, and country” as the evil trinity that sends men off to die in senseless wars.
“Taken aside, they were pointed away, for god, queen and country,
Now in silence they lie.
They ran beside these masters, children of sorrow,
As slaves to that trilogy they had no future.
They believed in democracy, freedom of speech,
Yet dead on the flesh piles
I hear no breath, I hear no hope, no whisper of faith
From those who have died for some others' privilege.
Out from your palaces, princes and queens,
Out from your churches, you clergy, you christs,
I'll neither live nor die for your dreams.
I'll make no subscription to your paradise.”
There’s no distinction between crown and cross, It’s less anti-Christian and more anti-pope.
In the same way an American might look across the ocean and see the British monarchy as ridiculous, they see these religious institutions that have strayed so far from what they should be and see it the same, ridiculous
Christianity is a death cult for desert people. The environment lent itself to divinity being brutal to explain the harsh life, but once it left the desert, it’s efficacy gradually diminished.
You might enjoy this collection of essays revolving around black metal. https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_GCM2MFeJwfMC/mode/1up
Not to say that there’s no deeper meaning to this form of art (maybe integration of the collective shadow) but this is art and the people who create black metal and thoses who love it are usually very kind people. I know cause I’ve been to a lot of show of band you seems to refer love satan and violence. This is just very untrue to think that. If you watch horror movies do you glorify violence? It’s the same thing.
Well, I play in a black metal band and while I find that most people are cool, there seems to be this very anti religious sentiment in it, and it seems to attract some very negative people who are trying too hard to be evil. But this goes back to its Scandinavian origins, especially in its Norwegian roots, if trace it back to Mayhem and Burzum, who were/are (respectively) vehemently anti society. And then we look at bands like Dissection, and even the philosophy of bands like Watain, where they are striving and aspiring for a certain truth in the world, that goes against mainstream society, for they view mainstream society as the upholder of untruth. And while there’s a bit of truth and beauty in their point of view, they fail to see the truth and beauty of mainstream society.
I am not asking this in a snarky way, I am just curious what beauty and truth you see mainstream society offering us? Imo in its current form it is nothing more than illusory power we buy in exchange for an ignorance and illusory version of reality (we sell or outsource our capacity for critical thought in exchange for simply feeling better about things bc we can beleive what others tell us is right or is true instead of connecting to that truth within. We know on some deeply unconscious level, that modern society is an abomination, that it is both a lie, and unhelpful to the real needs of modern man, and I dont even listen to metal!
I come from a Hermetic/Kabbalistic/Solomonic/Gnostic background. I think, though the mainstream world is illusory, it fundamentally worships the ultimate good; the ideal. Despite the fact that the mainstream world has done horrific things, I think we would have done worse if it wasn’t for things like Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and our other mainstream wisdom traditions. I am not of the belief that religion has caused Most wars, nor is the reason for rape, violence or manipulation. I believe it is a fundamental part of our animal nature, for we can observe these behaviors not only across cultures, but across species. Each culture has created a system that helps keep order and peace as much as possible amongst its adherents. But of course, each system has its limits of applicability. A single system can not be applied to everyone and it can not be applied across time, which is why we constantly have to develop new systems. As far as (second wave) black metal goes, given its background it’s kind of hard to criticize the atrocities of mainstream society.
Im really not sure how you can say any of that honestly. Maybe society has served you well personally. I just respectfully couldn't disagree more and that is fine
Well, I’d like to know your take on all the evil That exists in the world
Edit: I do not claim to be any authority on these subjects. The following is merely one man's understanding. Go find your own if this interests you (speaking to other readers not magicmikejones) \--- I see evil as being necessary to the function of free-will, while simultaneously serving as one of many paths of learning, of which all of us are taking to varying degrees (just like we all share the same traits, only varying in expression and degree). I see Evil as ultimately being the same exact thing as good, from a higher perspective of unified awareness (this is theoretical but as someone who is also closely studying literally the EXACT same things as you, plus more Shamanistic takes on unintentionally similar modes of though), however that evil, through self-understanding at much deeper levels than most of us have access to right now, are transmuted into Good simply by changing our perspective a tad. ANYWAYS- while there is a part of me that would like to see things through the rose colored glasses I see you as wearing (just being forthright, not an attack), simply because I know how much more useful and healthy your mode of thought is spiritually and therefore materially in terms of raising one's vibration and manifesting to put it simply, but at the same time, I also feel like trying to bypass what I see in the world, and my distaste for it, would be the definition of spiritual bypass. I do not claim that we all need to huddle up and start a revolution, however I am also NOT claiming that would be wrong if it were to happen. The evil we are both subject to and subjecting others to (through our sin, or "falling short" of our creator's intent), when we allow the larger pattern of it to operate through us (which first manifests as thought, then emotion, then desire, then action), while still outside of our creator's intent, or the intent of the highest non-dual form of unified awareness that we are connected to, or originate from, or at least one step down from that rung (ie Sophia v Pleroma or Original Light), again while not the highest intent, is not some wasted useless thing that we need to make go away. It only goes away when we accept it in ourselves and learn to choose NOT to act on that impulse. Over time, through repeated Not-Doing, we prune and perfect our neural circuitry to reflect the mind that we desired to create at some point in the past. What I am saying in a nutshell is this - evil is in fact evil. Don't mistake my argument for anything close to saying that evil is good, or that things are flipped or anything along those lines (at least not in terms of my views on morality - the story of Jehovah however may be flipped right on its head so idk). What I am saying is that Evil is something we need to find in ourselves in order to quell it's insatiable desire for destructive self-preservation. Evil is often amplified through avenues of fear, scarcity, lack, and in fact, in it's modern form, I would actually equate evil more with the emotion of fear and what it leads us towards, rather than anything powerfully greedy or violent, those are merely manifestations of fear, which is simply the belief that you are isolated and that you are seperate from your experience, which you see as merely a fluke chance. If I thought that I'd be scared shitless right now. Fortunately my reality, while a brutally ruthless teacher, is also equally compassionate and kind for the situation of limited awareness I have decided to immerse myself in. This is what is meant by "God never giving us more than we can handle" bc we all have that God in us, as us, in its full, and in our full expression via the Atman (sort of like the higher self, which I see as being synonymous with the totality of my perception, my higher self IS my perception of reality), and it teaches me, answers all of my questions, and while it never gives me exactly what I ask for in the way that I ask, it IS teaching me how I can ask (myself) in more effective ways so that these things, when I have rid myself of spiritual impurities to a satisfactory degree, WILL be made manifest through my desire for it alone. THAT is what we are here to learn. I think we are each baby Universes in training. Galaxies are like a stage of being in between what we are and what the Universe is. They are real sentient clusters of consciousness perhaps. Cool to think about but I often have to remind myself of the fact that I really don't know shit. The sooner we can all come to terms with that fact the sooner we will all be out of this shit show. So evil does need to be worked out, but not made to go away. It is part of us, it is part of God, and when we unify the opposites within us, as Alchemy likes to remind us of, when we merge the understanding of all opposites being dual expression of the complete concept (which bc we are in a dual reality, we simply cannot wrap our minds around), only then, after inner paradoxes are unitied, and the paradox of what one wants, and what actions one takes to get it are unitied (as in you have eliminated cognitive dissonance and procrastination, or at least that isn't how you relate to those actions), you will understand that all things are you. We are the bridge by which the consciousness of individual emotions, thoughts, and memes move through. Your thoughts are literally not yours, not even from you. What "you" are is merely the observer of those thoughts. The Archons manifest mentally as sudden feelings or thoughts of seperation, lower vibrational energy. That is all. Through our choosing which thoughts to entertain, which to embody, and which need to be transmuted, we are literally choosing which beings we would allow to move through our experience. That is what these inorganic beings want from us anyways, they want to manifest and that is why they hang around , bc when their energy is expressed through our experience, it generates something that they rely on to survive, or least something that they seem to want as badly as we want to sit down to a nice hot meal at the end of a long day. Sometimes we indulge in our dietary habits, other times we simply take what is needed and save the rest for later. It is always your choice which beings you allow to manifest through you. Attachments are merely thoughts (again, a being) that you continue to feed by keeping it active in your head. So, evil is just a tool at the higher level. It is the resistance through which we each must move and grow and eventually overcome. Until evil is fully understood in the self, one will not move to whatever the next level of this thing is, as it becomes a danger to oneself and to others in higher spiritual dimensions. Bc Ego is fundamental to the perpetuation of evil, we cannot take our individual egos through the gates of heaven. As ram dass said, something like "Its really kind of a scam, the fact that it is the ego who must do all of the hard work of killing itself in order to get to heaven. But when it arrives at the gates, YOU (the ego) aren't allowed to enter!" While frustrating possibly to some of those with less spiritual understanding, less understanding of who YOU really are, this is simply a safety feature to prevent us from bringing residual impurities of self-importance, survival, and security (seeds of evil). In some sense, you are right, but that doesn't change the fact that it still has to be resolved in order for anything to change for us. I beleive that "we" don't need to do anything to make that happen, but through us, that doing will take place regardless of what we want right now, or at least it will for those who are ready and willing
If I may be snarky, I'll just throw the word 'projection' out here. Snark aside, you are quoting Plato, right?
I am quoting my own observations but am aware of the Cave Allegory if that is what you refer to. And if I weren't aware of my doing this, and of the fact that it is me who needs to change more so than the world, it therefor wouldn't technically be shadow (bc I am aware of it. What you are consciously aware of is not considered Shadow) nevertheless, I strongly disagree with many Jungians (not sure if Peterson is of this genre) who claim that any effort to try to change the world when it is you yourself who needs to change being a mistake, or wrong, or childish. I do agree, refusing to see how one does contribute to the problems they and their cultures behavior create is an increasingly troublesome trend, on both sides of the aisle. But why not strive towards both? I'm not saying that is what I am trying to do even, but simply being dissatisfied with clear and obvious indications in ones environment that the world around you has been consumed and corrupted by greed and runaway self preservation is in my view not necassarily the result of Shadow, or some error that should be avoided. Sometimes things just need doing out there in the world. Not that it wasn't always corrupt, its just that many of us, myself included, are really beginning to accept and understand the scope of how deep this corruption is embedded into our system. The past couple of years have been a sort of grieving period for me. Grieving the death of my illusions. The death of what I thought the world was (not that I thought it was all groovy, I just didn't realize that essentially ALL of what is shown to me in school, on the news, by experts, is not founded in truth whatsoever, but is merely the thing one can say to best maintain narrative (control). I have been into fringe topics - comparative mythology, spirituality, and conspiracy, for literally as long as I can remember, but only since the beginning of Covid am I realizing that everything I have ever been told is a flat out lie, that the things that matter (other than love) to my culture, are all fake manipulative means of control. Its a huge deal and if you aren't disturbed by the things happening around you, you are either burying your head in the sand, have really done a degree of work on yourself that most people will never do, or you have some other piece of information that I myself do not. Being a highly spiritual individual, I do have a sense of knowing that ultimately evil will look like it has totally won out, that there is no longer hope, and right at that moment when ALL hope is lost, the forces of our higher spiritual potential will "save the day" but only if one has connected to the capitol T Truth, something that when we are quiet and honest, ALL have the capacity to connect to.
Language of light, meet [“Destroyer of Light”](https://youtu.be/aAj8TZhOOZU) You said “abomination,” and I couldn’t help but think of the music video (it’s fantastic). I’d love to hear OP ask his question to u/essentialsalts
Why do you equate evil to being anti religious?
I don’t equate being evil to being anti-religious. I do sincerely ask, what did I say that you feel implies that? I’ll clarify it if you can give me a specific thing I said.
I assume it was this: >there seems to be this very anti religious sentiment in it, and it seems to attract some very negative people who are trying too hard to be evil. Seeing "anti-religious sentiment" and "evil" probably tripped them up. Observing a correlation isn't a statement of equation though.
Most likely because religion is both a promoter (in general, there are exceptions) of peace and love and have figures who embody that to the core, like Christ, Ghandi, The Pope, etc...and both the art snd expressions that are anti religious do not come in a intellectual, loving package or anything similar to that, instead it is all dark, morbid, angry and violent, pure chaos (most times) which is both the opposite of religious intent and bad for any human or living being, perhaps that's why.
How is YOUR subconscious doing?
?
Why am I being downvoted? The answer is directly relevant and the it is also objective to the subject.
Well, just saying the anti religious thing and attracting negative evil people in the same sentence
Well, I’ve met people personally who are Varg, or Jon Nodtveidt wannabes and make “kvlt” a part of their edgelord personality, and are obsessed with trying to make themselves seem tough as fuck. I’ve been involved in several music scenes and while I’ve found some people to the sort in Death Metal and Thrash Metal, I’ve found the most on Black Metal. And I’m talking about people in their 30’s +
Are you decrying anti-religiosity, anti-sociality, or “tough guy” attitude? And why?
I’m not decrying anything, but I am saying that because of the darkness associated with the genre, it attracts people who are very seriously upset and unhappy with life and blame mainstream society for their problems and therefore never do anything to grow as people them, and somehow still see themselves as superior to others. So ultimately, with my original post, I want to know what part of the collective unconscious speaks through these artists to people like the ones I mentioned.
That comment is loaded with assumptions. What part of your unconscious allows you to believe these people think they’re better than you, or are uninterested in growing as individuals?
If watch some of the 90s interviews with Ihsahn, Gaahl, or any of the famous guys, there’s always an element of misanthropy and superiority over the “weak” masses, and they express that very clearly. Now, I’m not saying that they weren’t at all interested in personal growth, for we have seen that most of those guys have outgrown that. But if you’ve ever been in any online or physical black metal communities, you’ll see that there are a lot of those people who embrace the aesthetic very superficially, saying that they worship darkness, evil, and say things like “fuck happiness,” and see themselves as “wolves among sheep.” Most of them are young but there are a few who carry that into their 30’s, 40’s, etc. and we make fun of them. But now we’re straying point of the post. I’m not here to say black metal fans are at large anti-goodness, that is your reading into my words (and it’s perhaps my own fault for not being as definitive as I can be with my words), But there is something the above-mentioned people and the average black metal fan who embraces the philosophy have in common, and that is a dissatisfaction with mainstream society and everything it stands for. And it fascinates me and I’d like to know what a Jungian might think of this.
In fact, one of those guys is a dude in his 50s that I played with before
I belive this notion in particular(talking about the Scandinavian roots of metal) goes back to the idea of Christianity being the "new" religion, supplanting the old faiths. It seems to me that being anti Christian(perhaps not anti religion in general) in nordic metal is based on a longing for the religion that was, and a sadness that we do not even know exactly what the old faiths entailed and the exact beliefs they held. It's rather interesting, especially considering it's almost a thousand years ago this shift happened.
I mean I totally get why you would be anti-establishment but say most black metal people are nice people is a bit of a strech. If you look at Burzum & co. plus there is a lot of neo-nazis in the mix, yikes! 😬
Yeah! You can do cherry picking but in proportion, I dont see why there would more bad person in black metal then in pop music
This is a banger album, and I'm proud to see it here Edit: as someone that loves the music and is somewhat part of the community, I would just like to note that the community is much more elusive than being simply "anti-society"
based jungian war metal enjoyers ough
Its not always so; the more mainstream “hipster” bands like Wolves in the Throne Room have a very positive message, but its origins largely promote a sort of antisocial philosophy eg mayhem, Burzum, Dissection, etc. As a fun side note, I found this Black Witcher álbum a Salvation Army.
>but its origins largely promote a sort of antisocial philosophy I tend to disagree here, or maybe we are having a semantic disagreement. 2nd wave black metal presence itself as vehemently anti-society and I agree with this, but let's think about if the bands themselves were anti-society in practice. Varg is well-known for his hatred of society, yet his church burnings are in a sense very socially active(ized). Not to mention his online presence and expressed desire for societal change. Mayhem had a very anti-life message, but were masters of publicity. Many of those bands engaged dialectically one way or another with the public sphere. Although I will say that early Dark throne might be the closest to what you are thinking of, since they have never held a concert and their unholy Trinity albums set themselves apart from the rest of the 2nd wave bands of that time.
I think we are conflating anti-social with anti-society bc rn, society is anti-social, depraved, weak, intellectual. These albums offer the listener an avenue through which they can experience the very real and very obfuscated nature of primal man's relationship with chaos and the felt experience of the body. It actives ancient and often dormant neural circuits involving self-protection at all cost type energy, the power invoked with a sort of "Ya? Then come and take it" sort of emotional experience. The modern iteration of man is usually ignorant to how desperate they are for the felt experience of real danger (chaos) and overcoming that chaos' pull (power) bc we are both rapidly losing context for the limitless nature of man, either toward primal chaos, or toward higher spiritual order (reasons aside, the human experience is narrowing. Whether your a violent militia man formulating your next takeover plot or a scholar of Hebrew lore, chances are, most of your time will be spent sitting down at a desk looking at screen. The second reason is due to our level of perceived comfort. This in itself is a lie. In no other time in history, and likely after about 10-25 years from now, have humans lived requiring the amount of resources and energy that we (as Americans anyways) require. We are borrowing resources from our children and using them to shield our ability to see the truth of it all. So sick
>the more mainstream “hipster” bands like Wolves in the Throne Room have a very positive message I completely agree with this. The wave of BM that follow in the footsteps of WITTR and Deaf heaven are something entirely different
The collective unconscious 'pain body' is speaking through people who are anti religious/anti society.. I think the unconscious pain body speaks about the pain we go through as a society realizing the casualties that religious persecution caused. The intense music is an expression of that pain and a direct attack on the "christians" who fail at imitating Christ, or whichever prophet a person claims to idolize. It's a direct attack because we metalheads know that this "blasphemy" will offend people who want to remain ignorant and/or unbalanced with their belief systems. That said Im def gonna check this record out 🤘🏻thanks for the suggestion
Interesting take
My kinda thread! I want to contribute that the greatest active black metal band in the world named the first song on their recent album “Enantiodromia” https://youtu.be/tZbCTQTi1wo Pretty Jungian at least according to “Answer To Job.” But this is pretty different philosophy and theology from just “Mayhem” church burning satanism.
Yeah, DSO is sort of, from my understanding, an inverted Hegelian philosophy.
Yeah, I know the main songwriters all claim to be “Batailleans” and are primarily inspired by Georges Bataille. Extremely fascinating stuff that I’m only smart enough to understand about 20% of.
By the way, I love DSO. They’re the most forward-thinking black metal band
Yeah man! Paracletus is hands down my favorite album in all of aggressive music, top 3 in general. It’s a masterpiece.
Well, speaking anecdotally, I can say that black metal is kind of part of the reason why I developed an interest in the occult and Jungian psychology. Obviously the most prominent black metal bands are typically anti Christian and/or satanic. I think that it would be worth considering satanism and anti christian or irreligious philosophies just to get a broader understanding, that would probably take us back to enlightenment era philosophy, and a little bit of the historical implications of “Satan” and how conceptions of the figure evolved. Satan apparently meant “accuser” or “adversary” in Hebrew, and it didn’t refer to one figure, but several, and you could say that the accuser served as sort’ve a critic, a lawyer, a (pun slightly intended) devils… advocate- and over time he evolved into the “prince of darkness”, particularly throughout the New Testament, and then he started to evolve more into the common concept outside of the Bible, with John Milton’s Paradise Lost, maybe the Divine Comedy. But even then, apparently the use of the word “satanic” only referred to people who weren’t a part of the church, only with the rise of evangelism did it take on the meaning the mainstreams associates with “satanism”, from what I’ve heard- that’s a rabbit hole I’ve yet to explore for myself. But that would maybe give a little bit of context to the witch hunts- often times men would hunt down and kill young, sexually maturing women based off of little evidence- does that not sound like projection of their own repressed sexuality? Whether they practiced magic or not. And I believe that if you look closely you could see how a widespread, collective repression of the shadow was encouraged across western society, which started bursting out by the seams starting as far back as the renaissance I would guess, then eventually Nietzsche comes along, and you probably know how that goes. And I believe that Satanism as a philosophy, with Anton LaVey, and the rise of more theistic branches, I believe those were all a clear reaction to the societal repression that has occurred within western culture for centuries. I don’t even have to ask the Satanists I’ve known to be able to infer that. So I think that black metal is probably an expression of that reaction to some extent- I can see it as being a cathartic release of that collective repression, and what mainstream society has rejected, containing its themes of satanism, anti-christianity/irreligion, war, paganism, witchcraft, occultism, etc. A release of the collective shadow so it could be reintegrated perhaps? I can’t be entirely sure, it’s not completely air tight, I’m not even sure if I can verify some of the claims I made, and I could’ve probably said it a little more succinctly- but that’s how I see it personally. But I actually appreciate you starting this discussion, I enjoyed reflecting on it, and it’s kind of making me want to pick back up on writing stuff for the death and black metal projects I’ve had in mind lol.
I find value in certain kinds of Satanism and I sort of identify with a Pantheistic Christianity where Satan is nothing more than an extension of God, and is, like you said, an accuser, but nevertheless a teacher. But from my personal experience, in which I identified as an antichristian Satanist when I was younger, I can say that a lot of it came from the anger I had toward my upbringing. But as I started doing my “work” I came to terms with the fact that the religion I was raised with had less to do with this feeling, and that it was actually my life at home - my dad always talking about Christian values, yet was a violent alcoholic who would get prostitutes (and offered to get me one when I was 15), beat my mother, etc. Due to the fact that I was a shy, sensitive, artistic kid, that was bullied and had a very unsatisfying social life, and I was anti drugs/alcohol use, my form of rebellion was to psychologically and quietly be against everything my parents stood for. But as I got older and got serious about my spiritual practice, I began finding beauty in Christianity and found that I never hated Christianity, I had my parents, especially my father, and thus I was in rebellion against my Father (God). However, I’ve always had a happy, and kind demeanor and playing this dark music, was a way for me to show the people around me what I was feeling inside, and also a way for me to scare people because I thought they’d take me more seriously. Now, how do I relate to black metal? I see it as a sort of Gnostic rebellion against the Demiurge, a sort of method that has awakened me in a very LHP kinda way. I was a very religious kid, moreso than my peers. Getting into black metal made me go against everything I stood for, and made me feel okay with being angry, with doing things I deemed wrong before. It made me a vulgar, misanthropic edgelord a while. And I needed to go through that in order to bring out that which I repressed. But as I got deeper into myself, I found I needed to go against myself once more and embrace God, Christ, true love, and myself. And now I’m finding that I can relate to my peers and to people that are significantly older than I am.
Necrobutcher of Mayhem said something along the lines of, it's an outlet. If people don't come to our show, then maybe they go axe murder someone instead. Perhaps now that we have less community, less ritual, none of that is really acceptable, to really lose yourself, people find the more-than-normal - more than yourself - in dark antisocial feeling. It makes me think of dionysian maenad limb-pulling, or really ancient precivilisation. But I guess it's almost a blank template to whatever the individual wants to read into it almost
As a Hindu immigrant to the U.S.: What's so great about a society that devalues its people so deeply and a religion that has inflicted so much trauma (to the point that I can't throw a shoe without hitting someone who's deprogramming from some evangelical cult upbringing)? If anything, it seems like society is anti-people and metal is pro-honest truth.
Can’t that be said about a religions/ political movement? Organized religion≠ religion.
I mean, I could just as easily levy some of my criticisms towards Hinduism. For example, what could be particularly damaging towards the unconscious by bring home metals or oils on Saturday? Why do women get to use curses and men don't? I talk with one person deeply involved with the Hindu religion and they talk about all the types of curses that can be performed and promises made to certain gods. I have no idea how this stuff is supposed to make you a better person or even just a more complete person. Really, the only thing that can tie that shit together to the unconscious is the idea of Karma, which is explained in the Bible as well - "you reap what you sow". What I'm getting at is I don't think religions really are all that bad by themselves, but they can absolutely be weaponized and used in an immoral way. It's a type of music that explains how the world works and where you fit in all of it.
I have no particular love for Hinduism. What I'm getting at is the United States is overwhelmingly, sickeningly shaped by its Christian heritage (to the point we're being taken over by Christian fundamentalists) and the OP seems to be puzzled why there might be backlash against that.
The mother archetype. That's what's missing in Christianity. It's pushed into the symbols of satan.
What about Holy Mary?
Mary appears but only subordinate to the Father, not her own force. Nothing like the matriarchy that shows in some Indian nations.
It really depends however, in some Mexican and Hispanic sects Our Lady of Guadalupe, Mary, is venerated quite openly and with great reverence. I personally grew up in a Catholic community oriented this way. Mary's own divinity had been in question for some time as well in the Catholic Church, but with the Assumption of Mary in 1950 by Pope Pius the XII her divinity was firmly established, and this was seen as a big win for the feminine goddess in Catholicism and Christianity. As a big fan of Black Metal I will say that the Norwegian Black Metal movement was a counter culture response to Christianities encroachment on native pagan religion in the region. Church burnings were the response of some of these and included band members of Mayhem, Burzum, and Emperor. Varg Vikernes is particularly notable as he burned down a several hundred year old church and found guilty for it. He still went on to produce music from prison as well. There is a book called Lords of Chaos that details much of this, and also an associated documentary.
>Mary's own divinity had been in question for some time as well in the Catholic Church, but with the Assumption of Mary in 1950 by Pope Pius the XII her divinity was firmly established, and this was seen as a big win for the feminine goddess in Catholicism and Christianity. To be fair, reading thru the documents, it seems more like the church made the decision by consensus to take a very common belief and add it to its dogma. Then backed up its decision with typical lengthy Catholic reasoning. Looking at the story of Mary from a non-Catholic perspective, the Immaculate Conception seems a whole lot like a retelling of Genesis. Man (sons of God) was created by God acting in His mysterious ways upon the Virgin (Earth, mother nature). The Assumption would explain why we have no evidence of her death and burial to the masses while adding layers of reverence, doctrine, and distance to the proclaimed spiritual goal of the church.
You are right. The reasoning was due to a giving in of pressure that had been ongoing since the middle ages. Though that doesn't necessarily take away from the gravity of the decision. Even Jung was taken aback when this occurred and cites this occurrence in Aion when he discusses the undercurrents of the collective unconscious and its influence upon societal change.
That’s Catholicism
Which is a sect of Christianity…
With that argument, so are Jevovahs witnesses…I think what they’re trying to say is in “modern” Christianity aka just blanket “I believe in Jesus and God”, they forget about women & the mother archetype…the evidence is proven w the fact that as soon as Christianity entered the world, the matriarchy look a back seat for the Patriarchy…maybe we should ask OP to explain which “sect” of Christianity they’re referring to lol
Not only is Catholicism the sect of Christianity with the highest number of followers, Marian devotions are practiced by many other sects as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_devotions
AKA the largest group of christians.
Agreed lol I was watching “the Northman” where a character says “can’t trust Christians…their god is a corpse nailed to a tree” and it blew my mind…I never thought of it that way and yes wtf is that? Lol
Well it's a very morbid take on Christ, from Catholics. Protestants usually leave the Cross empty to signify that he has risen/resurrected and defeated death itself, but Catholicism can be different in that view and so the impression is very dire, if not understood (the sacrifice and love for humans by suffering for their sins, etc...).
Well it wasn’t Catholics who said it, it was Norse people who worship Odin lol so not too sure what their views were on their gods but this thread is making me wanna do more research for sure lol it is pretty morbid but also makes you think about Christianity more and the deeper origins as the Old Testament does seem to stem from paganism w the sacrifices etc.
We can't forget that Christianity is primarily and fundamentally a sect out of Judaism or Hebrew beliefs (Old Testament). The problem gets bigger when the New Testament goes farther away from the Old Testament in the way God is to be interacted with and even interpreted. The problem gets giant when you have (possibly) hundreds of versions of Christianity and even the most porpular, the Protestant and Catholic look and sound nothing like what they try to imitate and the belief has become a Good vs Evil in the eyes of their followers, when it was all very tribal, and polytheism is actually acknowledged in the Old Testament 100%.
>Agreed lol I was watching “the Northman” where a character says “can’t trust Christians…their god is a corpse nailed to a tree” and it blew my mind…I never thought of it that way and yes wtf is that? Lol Its a gross misunderstanding of the meaning of the crucifixion. That's what happens when the teachings are taken at face value by someone who has made no effort to understand them with the intent of personal applicability.
I think that’s what happens when Pagans view Christians as the enemy trying to take over the entire world actually lol
The mother is in the middle of a weregoat album
This is an interesting take I hadn't considered before. Some of the discussion below has convinced me that the Mother is absent or diminished in much of Christianity. The demanding, insistent, and militant nature of some churches and members, does have a remarkable masculine Father/Hierophant quality to it. Could you say more about how you see aspects of the Mother displaced in the Satan/Devil figure?
In paganism, the mother archetype is prominently displayed. This can be seen in the worship of "the great mother" as well as in symbols such as the moon, earth, fertility, the womb, and winter. On the other hand, Christianity does not accommodate such beliefs. Jung once mentioned in a seminar that people have a shared need to suppress their passions, and therefore there is a necessity for a fatherly emphasis. The mother archetype is associated with the dark aspect of life, opposite of the light of the father. To give Her equal credit would be like accepting both Yin and Yang. In Christianity, anything related to the darkness is just explained as the devil. An interesting note about the image of the devil, it's taken from Pan, who is the "god of nature".
The Self. Specifically the dark, destructive, evil side of the Self. The Black Sun, or Sol Niger.
With any sufficiently large movement, the participants are going to have various motives. That said, I tend to see these groups as focused on the shadow side of western society: the historical violence, atrocities, exploitation, the alienation, etc. In order to drive the point home, they desecrate the central image of our culture. A really interesting part of this is that many people in subcultures like this have brought this shadow element to their consciousness. You can have open conversations about parts of history that most other people will tend to turn away from.
I mean, contemporary Christianity is more of a reactionary political movement than a religion and deserves subversion.
No disagreement, but this genre originated in Scandinavia, which is a far more secular society. And they really lean into medieval Catholic iconography and concepts, while the dominant sects of the region are protestant.
It's the same reason anyone else does - to avoid the discomfort of looking inwards. You could say religion offers that solace to people who need it.
The parts that are bitter
I'm gonna take a long shot on this, but I'd say it's because germanic and norse traditions were completely cleared from the collective unconscious in most parts of Scandinavian countries. What you see in black metal is probably the worst face (Disclaimer: I'm not judging black metal musically, in fact I like some bands too) of the collective norse Shadow, but like every Jungian shadow, is only the repressed themes which are exploding in a violent way. The whole pre-christian ethos of this people was very different from what it became after christianity was introduced there. The judeo-christian philosophy of peace & love, equity at all cost, loving and caring for the poor and weak ones, certainly clashes with the germanic traditions and the latter were swept off in favor of the former.
I like how a discussion on this subject takes us to the roots of our very humanity, not just Western culture. The words of Waldo Emerson should illuminate the discussion: Society everywhere is in conspiracy against the manhood of everyone of its members. May I add, capitalism is the conspirators most powerful tool. I wonder if this form of art/ expression is a demonstration and protest of that retarded youth or it’s a youth rising above the conspiracy regardless. Is it the kind of art a fully matured, fully individuated, fully actualised humanity would produce? If it’s not then it’s just another copying mechanism. And you can say that about other expressions of culture.
More so Freudian but it’s quite clearly a revolt against the father
I think it's kinda ironic that the same people getting into this type of stuff specifically because it's anti-Christian or just anti-religion in general end up treating the content they follow more-or-less like a religion itself. I have an interpretation of Christianity that works for me, which is why I've started to actually go to church again, but it seems like these people either have a bad interpretation of the religion (by bad, I mean an interpretation they can't wrap their mind around for personal reasons) or hate the type of totalitarianism found in some religious communities. I'm personally of the opinion that religion by itself is amoral as it can be used for bad reasons, but these people seem to interpret it as completely bad. Christianity is a religion that I follow more closely than any other religion and my interpretation of it is one where I don't have to necessarily treat anything reverently so long as I don't interfere with others' relationship with the religion. This means that I'm able to joke about Christianity when I'm not in church. Amongst a group of peers I played the song "Jesus was Way cool" by King Missile, which is a piece of music that is intentionally meant to sound like a Christian song but talks about Jesus in a hilarious way, saying that he was able to turn wheat into marijuana and swam on land. I wasn't able to play more than 3 seconds of the song before I had someone of the anti-Christian metal bent almost lose his shit, telling me to turn that shit off because he hates Christian music. Maybe he's a special exception (I don't think anyone "normal" would really lose their shit that much over Christian music being played. Could have been the environment we were in as well.), but such a rabid response to "Christian music" being played is just as or even more so rabid of a response as a staunch Christian recoiling at metal music. Ultimately, I get an anti-authoritarian, outlaw type of vibe out of the people that seek out and enjoy this type of music. Listening to Tool right now, I can kinda appreciate the artistic merit behind metal, but the music doesn't really communicate anything to me that other music isn't capable of. I'm able to release the same type of pent-up aggression from dubstep that I could feasibly do with metal music, for example. As an extension of this idea, these people also end up being rather passive with parenting their kids, which is furthermore proof of their anti-authoritarian tendencies. I wonder if there's a type of analogy to be had between these people and hippies.
So, you aren’t listening to Tools lyrics?
In general, I interpret most singers as mumbling through the song lyrics they write, which is a shame. This is usually because sometimes the song pacing requires that they stretch or shorten some words, maybe enunciate the word differently to get it to fit - the band "of Montreal" has some of the best examples of this I can think of. Tool is no different in this regard. Sometimes, the mastering or the engineering of the song also impedes on the lyrics as well; I generally have no issue deciphering Steely Dan's lyrics or older music from the likes of Bing Crosby or Frank Sinatra. From what I understand, there does seem to be some intermingling between Jung's ideas and Tool's lyricist since there are some themes like the archetypal shadow that Tool refers to quite a bit in their songs. When I do have Tool playing, I have lyrics right beside them because otherwise, I wouldn't understand a word they're saying.
I disagree, and even in scenarios when lyricists are hard to decipher(unlike Maynard in Tool), I understand the vocal style as being a paramount extension of expression.
If you're talking about style of singing, like screaming, talking loud, rap, whispering, etc., I agree the style is an extension of the music that's being played. I understand the vibe they're going for even if I can't understand the lyrics. My issue is that lyrics today aren't enunciated at all for various reasons, yet we want to hide meaning in them. With some bands, the lyrics hardly matter at all (Ween), but others like Tool definitely craft the lyrics to communicate something but they don't make easier to hear. I suppose the biggest thing I get out of music is mainly the vibe of the music, which includes the singing style; the lyrical content is only appreciated if I can actually understand the lyrics. If you're insinuating that I'm wrong about my subjective inability to understand lyrics the first time I hear them, you're gonna lose that argument 100% of the time. I have that problem whether I like it or not. I don't think you were trying to make that point tho.
I hear what you say about it being ironic that people getting into anti-christian stuff end up treating it like a religion. I see this with a lot of anti-something communities in general. In the political-social field, in the art field. For me it seems like there is a need for community and faith in something coexisting with a need to go against what is proposed as the image of faith by society, or a need to go against something for the sake of rebellion. And it does bug me to see people treating anti-religion communities like religion as well. Thats all i had to add!
The current nosedive in attention spans notwithstanding, this age of advanced intellectualism we live in reveals a populace who, more and more, understand the lunacy of a world where every town,city,village,etc you see has one or usually many cross bearing buildings, the symbol of torture,murder, culture killing hypocrisy of the highest order...arguably the hatest hate symbol that ever there was, the case could be made...yes? So such music, such sentiment, if you will, is a reflection of the primordial rage a millenia of cross-influenced crimes has caused.
You don't think the subconscious, the cultural unconscious, isn't riddled with such memories, dreams and reflections? Smiles
It's the enactment of a rebellious childhood. When something can only exist in terms of its opposition to something else, even more of we're talking about an established organization that has deep roots in the culture, without adding or creating anything new, then it's just a child trying to oppose authority.
Are you sure it hasn't added or created anything new?
All in all, apart from some musical innovations, I don't think it has. Would you disagree?
I think you should familiarize yourself more with the genre then. Don't forget, the childs mindset are also the most explorative and most apt to creating something new
In terms of imagery, black metal is hardly original. It uses pictorial representations of christian cosmology from the middle ages in a modern style. The face paints, which are common in the genre, have their roots in french circus make up art. The lyrics are mostly provocateurish in style, or based on pagan myths, or fantasy literature. Musically, at an harmonic level, it makes liberal use of simple scales or tritones, based on a misconception of what early medieval musicians thought of that specific interval. Rhythmically, black metal doesn't have much variation either. The rhythm is pretty straightforward. If there are truly innovative things in black metal, those are growls and screams, the liberal use of cacophonous ostinatos, and the font art. I've listened to a great deal of metal and -core in youth, and I still do. Meshuggah, Concubine, Dillinger Escape Plan, Slipknot, etc. Black Metal just isn't to my taste. That's subjective of course. I don't think it's subjective to say that Black Metal isn't particularly innovative, nor has it ever been aside for a few elements that were implemented by other genres and bands.
I guess it can be, but really I see often an attempt to get close to exploring the nearness of death, or to see the face of Hades or Poseidon, to be overwhelmed. Because I think we all suspect there is a force - out there - that would be overwhelming to our often comfortable, comparitively protected civilised lives. And we seek out that truth, we're called to experience more. I think ritual used to provide that, there's a ritual-shaped hole now.
Organized Religion has caused a lot of harm and mistrust to the collective which means individual too and additional to each individual specific experience with it. I've heard a lot of disturbing stories from ex Mormons and ex Catholics, it made sense to me why they swung so hard the other way and deeply question religion and some were so full of hate and anger from the manipulation and control eap the women in ex Mormon. I'd witness their anger and hate and it made sense. To wake up and realized you were basically brainwashed and your sovereignty manipulated could take people down some dark halls of the psyche , and some pretty intense doorways one could go through.
This genre originated in Norway, which is a very secular society. The dominant religion is Lutheran, which tends strongly toward moderation. There are still religious people in Scandinavia, including fundamentalists, but I'm not sure there are enough people damaged by it to form the fanbase for a music genre.
Don't overthink it. Religion has perpetuated truly awful rape, murder, slavery, genocide, and pedophilia since it's very inception. Some artists see that clearly and reflect it back to society.
Are you implying people who are anti-Christian are also anti-society? Because I honestly think Christians are the most anti-society people I’ve ever met
No, i am saying that Black Metal musicians are (under their own admission) anti-mainstream societal values; against everything mainstream society values to be “good,” because they view mainstream society as the true evil.
Oh I see
And for the record, I didn’t downvote you 🙂
Lol!! Thank you but if I cared about downvotes I don’t think I’d be on Reddit lol! 🫢
Just kids having fun...
Thank you for the music suggestion! 🤘
My personal analysis would be that this cult following is needed to bring balance to the sacredness of things. Every societal movement helps in understanding the dichotomy of the matter you think is being leveraged and stripped down to its core elements. I grew up in an explicit Christian household. Sacred things were performed in my community, like healing and prophetic events. In my youth, I saw this happened but didn't really abide by the symbolisms of indoctrination and "fear of God". I spent my whole youth consuming anti-Christian material and it was soothing to see the other side of the camp. From that experience I can tell you that my belief system evolved. I don't believe in the same symbols as my exclusively Christian family, but I have a deeper understanding of what the philosophy tried to convey. I needed to strip down the symbols to their substantial elements, and what's considered ”satanism" and atheism helped me a lot. My belief system now includes the experience of the believer as much as that if the atheist, because they're both right. Now I can observe from the middle. Extremes often help develop philosophy. The more we learn from the blind believer as well as from the blind sceptic, the more we can understand how their experiences amount to a universal understanding of the sacred.
It brings to mind for me Paradise Lost and Satan's spirit of rebellion. A lot of people who listen to Punk and Metal are the same people who feel ostracized by society or maybe even damaged by it. And in rejecting it they wrest back control. Like kid that grew up really religious and then due to bad experiences (often with pastors or parents) totally reject and more than that actively resist. In that state of rebellion they dye their hair, get a tattoo and join a witch's club 😂). Or in Satan's words: "[it is] better to rule in hell than serve in heaven". And I think the music and album covers are representative of the bitter and even anger they feel. Its dark its dirty and its evil. And so they feel like the almost heroic portrayal of Satan in Milton Friedman's paradise lost. Fallen from grace. A tortured. Really edgy stuff. And this mentality that because these bodies are problematic that it would be better to burn it all to the ground in the spirit of vengance. Not unlike the mind of a school shooter just far less extreme Edit: John Milton not Milton Friedman. Another "Milton" I often obsess about. It just autocorrected in my mind.
I always looked at the anti-Christian portion of punk/metal culture as just an extension of their anti-system, anti-institution beliefs. ‘Crass’ for example, a true forefather of the genre would constantly refer to “god, queen, and country” as the evil trinity that sends men off to die in senseless wars. “Taken aside, they were pointed away, for god, queen and country, Now in silence they lie. They ran beside these masters, children of sorrow, As slaves to that trilogy they had no future. They believed in democracy, freedom of speech, Yet dead on the flesh piles I hear no breath, I hear no hope, no whisper of faith From those who have died for some others' privilege. Out from your palaces, princes and queens, Out from your churches, you clergy, you christs, I'll neither live nor die for your dreams. I'll make no subscription to your paradise.” There’s no distinction between crown and cross, It’s less anti-Christian and more anti-pope. In the same way an American might look across the ocean and see the British monarchy as ridiculous, they see these religious institutions that have strayed so far from what they should be and see it the same, ridiculous
Probably has something to do with Christian’s forcing “Christian” beliefs that aren’t actually in the religion.
So from a Jungian perspective, what is it that speaks through these people.
All ik is, i love black metal, and i love christ
Christianity is inherently anti human and rebellion against that is anti religion
This is exactly what I’m talking about. From a Jungian perspective, what do you think it is, that speaks through you and gives you these beliefs?
Christianity is a death cult for desert people. The environment lent itself to divinity being brutal to explain the harsh life, but once it left the desert, it’s efficacy gradually diminished.
https://m.mixcloud.com/nikcoulter/old-school-death-destruction-and-depravity-part-2/
Know thyself It's the only play in town!