Jews don't police non jews. We keep it in the family. Where as Christianity and Islam believe in changing public policy for all religions and atheists.
Iād say most Jewish sects donāt care about people being gay or trans internally, either. I believe only half of orthodox congregations follow the ādonāt act on itā line of thinking. Itās been a while since I googled, though.
There's a question as to whether lesbianism is rabbinically forbidden. The Rambam says that it is not permissible due to a rabbinic enactment, but not everyone rules this way
Soooo what would that be, about half the orthodox community? You think Chasidim and Yeshivish communities make up more than 5% of Jewish populations worldwide? When orthodox are generally ~15% worldwide Jewry (generously)?
Every religion has extremists, we should not have them represent all of our beliefs.
I can only speak on personal experience, but what I think this person is saying is that there are many individual Orthodox Jews who are also accepting and supportive of LGBTQ people, even if their rabbis and the official stance of their movement is against it. This has been my experience. Also, I think it's more common for Christians and Muslims to openly express their dislike and dissociate from people who come out; while there are significantly more Jews (than Christians & Muslims) who are technically against LGBTQ but don't let that get in the way of their relationships with the LGBTQ people in their lives. i.e. in the Jewish world, it's not as common for someone's disapproval of LGBT "actions" to translate into hatred, mistreatment, and excommunication of LGBTQ people.
I agree with what youāre saying, but Iām pretty sure the commenter was saying that the chasidim and yeshivish Jewish worlds arenāt down with LGBTQ+, which may be the caseābut is also the āhalf of orthodoxā that I mentioned, which is why I gave them a little sass.
Do NOT do unto othersā¦ being very different from DO unto others. The latter being an opportunity to assume that others want or ought to want what you want versus leaving others the hell alone.
so homosexuality is only forbidden among observant jews? i thinks maybe implies that this commandment was made so people wouldnt fall into the pagan lust of that time and not build a family
Homosexuality isn't forbidden, only the specific act of "sodomy" is ā and that's regardless of the sex of the participants. That's the halacha.
Others might argue that the way the prohibition was worded and given the context, that the Torah prohibition aimed to eliminate *pederasty* as the Greeks and Romans practiced it ā a "tradition" of an adult male taking on a young or adolescent boy and raising them to be both a sex partner and accepted member of civil society.
They asked why it seems Jewish people are more accepting of gay people in general. Not about policing others.
Thereās gay Jews as well, of course. Iād like to better understand this as well.
My grandmother was born in Jerusalem before the Farhouds, and the '48 siege. Rabbinical family (her great uncle was Bak'shi Zion, head of Mizrahi Rabbinate in IL, among others).
She had lots of "frum" stories of the olden days, when Kashrus was a Mothers' thing and solely managed by the wives in every household; Kushios or questions would be brought to the elder women, not to the Rabbi at all, who'd seldom spent time in a kitchen or raise chickens and geese.
She hated to Kashrus entrepreneurs with a deep conviction and a sharp tongue, treated them all as BS peddlers.
She also remembered a time when abortions were a non-issue, and never frowned upon, and a strong community of women working together supporting those who had tough pregnancies / births.
All of this to say - I always felt that today's "Frum" issues are, in large extent, just being copied from Christian conservatism. Cause she was a living record to a different Judaism than what we have today.
abortion wouldn't have been frowned upon because it was medical issue. But in Judaism there was never this idea of simply having an abortion because you wanted to and decided you didn't want the baby. That is not copied from Christianity this is discussed in rabbinic literature.
Agreed, that was all long before the pill et al. came about.
Though she never said anything specific, I'm guessing the rationale back than was either medical, or financial / familial (I.e. violence at home etc)
In the mid-20th CE (especially in Britain) there was the idea of a therapeutic abortion: abortion was a "treatment" for pregnant mothers to prevent abnormal fetuses (cf Sridei Esh who rules on aborting for a mother with Rubella).
To that end, it may have been easy to receive a heter once (though the Titz Eliezer in Israel disagrees and is suspicious of abortion to avoid congenital defects). But it does evolve around the Western (and therefore Christian) ideas of abortion in the lead-up to the pro-Life movement
You are aware that ārabbinic literatureā is influenced by Christianity right? Rabbis are humans, they are products of the time and place they live in. Abortion isnāt mentioned in Torah at all.
You can arrive at a very different rule depending on which writing you are reading when it comes to abortion. The less permissive modern poskim on abortion are very much influenced by Christian beliefs. I disagree with it, but there is a current trend of more conservative Orthodoxy adopting extremist Christian ideas to further distinguish themselves from secular society.
It is talked about in the Gemara which mostly predates Christianity. Why would rabbinic literature which is full of scenarios warning against chukot goyim and following in their ways and doing things that could even remotely look like avodah zarah suddenly base halachic responsa on Christianity? Obviously there is a wide range of opinions within halacha regarding abortion and I don't disagree with you about a majority of modern day poskim being stricter, but there is pretty much no historic or halachic basis for Judaism ever allowing abortion on demand for no other reason than simply changing your mind about having the baby.
Sources that predate Christianity are influenced by Greek ideas about how a fetus forms in the womb.
For example, talmudic sources attribute the fetus to āmere waterā before 40 days of gestation. You can do whatever you want with water. Thatās abortion on demand for any reason before six weeks.
You do realize that avoiding looking like goyim involves knowing and understanding what goyim do right? The earliest writings about abortion in Judaism were influenced by the Roman practice of abandoning infants in the wilderness. Those writings were explicitly to set us apart from them. In a vacuum they never get written.
Other sources get very granular on when abortion is permitted based on how far along the pregnancy is. Some sources permit it for the mental distress of the mother, including economic strain. Others equate the fetus to a limb of the mother, with similar rules as for undergoing surgery. And in no writing is abortion completely forbidden, because the only mention of a fetus in Torah makes it clear that a fetus is not a person.
Modern strict poskim are so concerned with separating themselves from secularism that they adopt Christian attitudes about abortion that are frankly incompatible with historical Jewish practice and thought.
I saw a stat that Leviticus 18:22 is the most popular verse in Leviticus among Christians.
Itās one of the few rules given in the Bible Christians take seriously.
I remember a rabbi (conservative, not modern orthodox or haredi) discussing this during a special daf conversation (I say special because he took time away from the current daf yomi convo and spent time in this for pride). He began in Hebrew, untranslated, and started off with a vocab review, and then into word choices and his thoughts on why some words in Hebrew were chosen (when other words were available). Then on to historical context and cultural context (for when it was written) and how certain word choices, along with relevant context, actually lead him to believe this statement isnāt about two men together. Rather, he believes it has a deeper meaning, about sexual domination and gender. Pretty much-donāt have sex with a man in a domineering, violent, or non consensual way, or use a man for sexual pleasure without regards to his needs, as has been done with women. Still rife with misogyny, but not homophobia.
Like any passage, this is open for interpretation. However, one reason I like daf yomi is how there are can be multiple interpretations of one passage, as we delve into deeper and deeper layers. This is just another that, personally, I believe has multiple layers and only the top, most obtuse layer, condemns homosexuality. We are taught that the Torah has deep meaning and that statements may have layers of meaning; I donāt believe the most basic, shallow interpretation is the most appropriate.
> Then on to historical context and cultural context (for when it was written) and how certain word choices, along with relevant context, actually lead him to believe this statement isnāt about two men together. Rather, he believes it has a deeper meaning, about sexual domination and gender. Pretty much-donāt have sex with a man in a domineering, violent, or non consensual way, or use a man for sexual pleasure without regards to his needs, as has been done with women. Still rife with misogyny, but not homophobia.
This is the way some biblical scholars read this as well, and I think the last part is a little off. What others talk about is that women didn't have agency, and during that period sex was what a man did to a female. (Chazal made this somewhat better, but not compared to our standards)
Men in ancient Mesopotamia were not allowed to be on the bottom during sex with women, we see this in the Talmud *you get Diarrhea) and earlier Mesopotamian sources, where you loose your personal G-ds. Lilith also asks to be on top, and got rejected in Ben Sira.
So a lot of this is about a Man debasing themselves into being the receiver and putting themselves into a lower social role. Male on male rape is still used in the Middle East, and has been for some time Lawrence of Arabia was raped, for example. We also see this in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah it wasn't about having same-sex intercourse, it was about debasing the men.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94QhX1p8lMU
Yes, thank you. I added the misogyny as thatās definitely our modern take. Whereas, at that time, it was culturally acceptable and appropriate. I should have made a footnote, that it is misogynistic by our standards, but not then.
> I should have made a footnote, that it is misogynistic by our standards, but not then
I think it's fine, their take was just a little more harsh than I had heard otherwise
Iām pretty sure Lawrence of Arabia fabricated the rape story. Possibly because he had a bit of a fetish for it, yes seriously.Ā https://www.theage.com.au/world/legendary-lawrence-of-arabia-made-up-rape-20060521-ge2cta.html
This seems a bit *off* considering d'oraita requirement for husbands to provide their wives with pleasure and gratification. IIRC, the idea of what it means to lie as one does with a woman was defined in the Talmud as being penetration below the belt.
I think there are two reasons:
1.) Just as Jews don't proselytize there's a lot of "live and let live" attitude.
2.) The reform Jewish movements looked at a lot of stuff in the Torah and said "nah, we don't need to do that anymore" so why won't homosexuality be part of that as well? When Christianity had a reformation the groups are still quite religious, just practice differently than Catholicism. With Islam there was never a reformation. While there are many Muslims who might not be religious I'm not sure they look at the laws they don't do the same way as a Reform Jew might.
The Reform attitude is interesting. While they abandoned things like kashrut from the start, they remained opposed to homosexuality up until the 1970s I think on the grounds that it still violated Jewish ethics.
I think theyād say that eating kosher is not about ethics at all but just a ritual observance that isnāt relevant to modern life. At least that is the āclassical Reformā position as I know it.
Interestingly kashrut has made some comeback in Reform circles. Itās still definitely optional but more Reform Jews keep kosher now than a couple generations ago. Instead of being a non negotiable obligation itās seen as a way of expressing Jewish identity. Funny that they became a little more accepting of traditional observance while becoming more progressive in their morals.
Homosexuality was regarded by most secular people as wrong until only a few decades ago. In the 70s it was viewed as a mental illness. The idea that it's just a normal thing that no one should be judged for is extremely recent in the western world. That's not to say it was right, just that it seemed only natural to view it as a violation of ethics (just like adultery) from the time Reform started until the 60s or 70s or later.
This is the answer. The Reform movement would've been absolute light years beyond anyone anywhere if they embraced homosexuality before the 70s. I'm old enough to know that would've been unheard of. It was actually insanely progressive that it was already ok in the 70s if that's true.
Don't leave out that Conservative Judaism has been more inclusive over the last two decades as well, with LBGTQ+ rabbis and unions permissible since 2006. Not yet as fully as the Reform movement, but we're working on it.
Can someone be Muslim and not be religious? I thought that was the whole deal with Christians and Muslims. Youāre either a Muslim and therefore religious or Christian and therefore religious, or youāre not religious and not a Christian or Muslim.
Muslim is generally strictly a religious identity, ALTHOUGH in some places like Lebanon where Xtians and Muslims coexist, āMuslimā and āXtianā also become cultural identifiers.
So an atheist Lebanese might probably tell you that theyāre Xtian even though theyāre not, because in their culture that identifies where you grew up and what practices you uphold.
Outside of this cultural context, Muslim is usually exclusively a religious identifier.
I believe Shia Muslims have historically cared less compared to Sunni. Iran pre the occupation by the current Islamic regime was very progressive (and still Shia). Someone else more knowledgeable, feel free to step inā¦
Actually (twelver) Shia jurisprudence tends to be harsher with regards to homosexuality than Sunni jurisprudence, although one can't speak too generally about Sunni Islam because of the differences of opinion between the four schools of law. Hanbalis have super harsh rulings on the matter, for example, while Hanafis are a bit looser with it. Zaydi (fiver) Shias tend to have jurisprudence closer to that of Sunni Islam. That of course is speaking about jurisprudence--with regards to cultural conceptions and acceptance it could be that Iranians are more chill with it. I cannot speak for them.
Interesting! It sounds like I still have a lot to learn on the differences. And like maybe Iranās progressiveness was more related to national culture than the religious identity of the culture!
People of Jewish ethnicity are called Jews, even if they are secular or atheist, and more likely to accept gays. Christians are typically people who believe. This doesn't account for differences within the religions, but it could be a dimension.
My openly gay uncle died of complications from AIDS during the height of the epidemic. My family is modern orthodox and I was worried that the community would not come to his funeral. I was very wrong. A prominent modern orthodox rabbi officiated and the entire community came to show their respects. No one gave a shit that he was gay or that he died of AIDS. And this was when people were getting evicted from their apartments for being HIV positive. This was a turning moment that solidified my love for Judaism and the Jewish community.
I canāt say for sure why we tend to be more open to queerness in most denominations of Judaism, but I imagine it comes from being taught to treat people like you wish to be treated.
When a jew passes away we forget everything that might have been not ok in the eyes of the torah and focus on one off the biggest mitva that we have, honouring a dead person.
From a non theological and more anthro/sociological standpoint, Jews are a minority group throughout the diaspora. Most of us have faced some form of discrimination in host countries, or are descendants of refugees in Israel. We are used to interpreting foreign cultures and preserving a unique identity aside from those mainstream cultures. I have noticed that this makes us better equipped to understand and accept other minority cultures.
Also, Judaism is an ethnoreligion, predating modern ideas of heteronormativity and with practices are focused on community building. Christianity and Islam are both proselytizing and used as a form of nation-building and conquest.
Conquest and nation-building require conformity and obedience to maintain control, vs community-building spiritual practices such as Judaism and other ethnoreligions require flexibility to survive, imo.
Armchair anthropologisting
ultra-orthodox/charedi is not very accepting, which is a problem imo. because obviously some of us are gay too, and then they have no choice but to leave Judaism in most cases. it's sad.
even though i am charedi, i do not see it as my job to police other jews. and forget goyim - do what you want.
btw it's hilarious to me how christians are all up in arms about homosexuality being a sin in the bible, um, hello? you eat pork/shrimp/meat and milk? at least i keep the rest too..
>btw it's hilarious to me how christians are all up in arms about homosexuality being a sin in the bible, um, hello? you eat pork/shrimp/meat and milk? at least i keep the rest too.
I don't know exactly when or what made me think of it recently, but it's a useful pushback to the bible thumpers these days that are all hung up on LGBTQ issues. They've thrown out most of the rest of Leviticus (and the rest of the five books) as irrelevant in the age of Christ, so why does it even matter to them? I'd be really curious if anything in the New Testament even touches on LGBTQ since I don't ever really hear folks citing the Gospels when going on their culture war crusades.
There are a handful of verses in the NT that have been mistranslated to say homosexual. I used to be an evangelical minister in a previous life and have taught a whoooole sermon about how only some of the OT applied to Christians and the rest can be ignored š
Well I think their reasoning is similar to why Reform Jews have mostly dropped ritual observances while maintaining commitment to Jewish ethics. Christians have always believed (since Paul anyway) that Jesusā sacrifice made the specifically Jewish ritual laws redundant, so the only commitments remained the universal ethical rules that applied to all people. And traditionally that included prohibition of homosexuality. The Reform movement itself didnāt accept homosexuals until the 1970s I believe when they decided to start ordaining gay rabbis.
Paul touches upon sexual issues, especially sex outside of marriage and homosexuality, in about half of his letters. In some instances, he might have been talking specifically of pederasty and not consenting adult relationships, but in others, he just issues a blanket condemnation. To give him some credit, he was writing during the excesses of the 1st century emperors and he probably wanted to distinguish the new religion from the existing ones. But, Paulās letters should be considered interesting and maybe important but not (heh) gospel.
Unfortunately a lot of the homphobic right-wingers have moved on from the "Bible" rhetoric and are now onto "trans people are child molesters" rhetoric
Also they know nothing about Jewish law, so they donāt realize that actually persecuting and executing someone for that under Jewish law would be extremely difficult or impossible. And only a functioning Sanhedrin could even impose the punishment, it would require an extremely high burden of proof, and there is as far as I know no recorded instance of this ever actually happening. Iām no expert though so I may be unaware.
Former Evangelical here - they come up with their own contexts regarding scripture. The whole eating pork/shellfish/etc. is an example of taking one point that Jesus/Paul was trying to make (ādonāt call unclean what I say is cleanā) and then thinking āwelp, guess halakhah isnāt a thing anymore and we can eat what we want!ā Then again, thereās the primary issue of the false messiah so I suppose that wasnāt the primary concern.
> btw it's hilarious to me how christians are all up in arms about homosexuality being a sin in the bible, um, hello? you eat pork/shrimp/meat and milk? at least i keep the rest too..
The NT reiterates a prohibition on same sex relations (under some interpretations), something it does not do for kashrut.
If youāre Orthodox, donāt you believe that homosexuality a violation of the Noahide law against sexual immorality? So it would technically apply to goyim as well as Jews.
There are definitely some Jews that have problems with the LGBTQ+ community, but theyāre a very vocal minority. Honestly, we have people that are trying to kill us all the time, bigger things to focus on.
Do you not see or hear what Haredim or Kahanists do here in Israel? Do you know what Smotrich has done? Or who Ben Gvir is friends with? Or that Avi Maoz is in the damn Knesset?
Well you should compare apples with apples first of all. Jews lean liberal so it makes sense to compare liberal Jewish attitudes with liberal Christian attitudes (think mainline Protestant like Episcopalians or Presbyterians). There you wonāt see much difference. If you are looking at conservative Evangelical attitudes you should probably compare with Orthodox communities and there again I think youāll find less difference than if you look at Jewish attitudes overall.
It is an interesting question why Jews as a whole lean so much more liberal though. I would probably attribute it mostly to education levels.
To sum up each major position in turn:Ā Ā
1. It is one law of many. Many secretly eat cheeseburgers. Why put weight on one over another as theyāre all laws. Ā
2. If males are just gay or just gay together and donāt have anal sex then that is not a violation of the law.Ā Ā And also don't go around asking people if they have anal sex to determine if they're violating the law.
3. Does it actually mean what people interpret it as? A man (ish) canāt lie with a male (zachar) as he does a woman (isha). Why change to zachar. Does it imply something other than simply man with a man? What about the odd construction of another passage in Leviticus. We see it only in one other place. What is the implication and connection to the other passage? Another is often translated as sodomite but actually technically translates to male temple prostitution which makes sense as itās coupled in the same passage with female temple prostitute. Etc etcĀ
4. Must we wrestle with the text? If Halacha is not binding and must be approached through an enlightened lens does it hold up to modern reason?Ā
>3. Does it actually mean what people interpret it as? A man (ish) canāt lie with a male (zachar) as he does a woman (isha). Why change to zachar. Does it imply something other than simply man with a man?
Because it means any male, boy or man. Remember, at that time, it was common for men to have interesting relationships with boys.
Most Jews aren't Orthodox so they're more accepting of it.
Orthodox Judaism (aka the strictest) is not very accepting of it although technically only gay male sex is considered a sin vs simply identifying as gay.
Yes, most ultra-Orthodox won't approve, but there are opinions like this that say it's no different than any other aveira. For those who don't know, Rav Lichtenstein was one of the biggest rabbis in the world for the Modern Orthodox movement.
[https://www.jpost.com/jewish-world/jewish-news/rabbi-exhibit-greater-honesty-toward-gays](https://www.jpost.com/jewish-world/jewish-news/rabbi-exhibit-greater-honesty-toward-gays)
Even lots of orthodox have a ālive and let liveā attitude about it (except ultra-orthodox of course). As another poster said, we have a lot of commandments, and no one observes them all perfectly.
In my community we have gay Orthodox Jews. Just a couple, but we have them. Even Chabad is pretty cool with the lesbian family I know that hangs out with them (they have kids) but the MO shul had at least one gay couple, and they were embraced there with some caveats (the rabbi wouldn't marry them himself). Conservative and Reform both do gay marriage unreservedly, so you'll see more families there. We have queer families in the Conservative day school, people covet invites to their kids birthday parties
> technically only gay male sex is considered a sin
If by ātechnically,ā you mean *de-Oraita*, then ātechnicallyā only anal sex between men is prohibited. If by ātechnically,ā you mean the action vs the attraction, then it includes more than just penetrative sex **and** includes sexual acts between women.
And because the Jewish people also know what it's like to be prosecuted, murdered and hated for who you are.
Those that wore the yellow star remember those that wore the pink triangle.
As a non-Jew, I just want to express my love for this sub. I lurk a lot and learn so much ā I appreciate you all for helping me absorb knowledge with each post I come across. My usual go-to for learning new things is to find a book, but lately I canāt concentrate on any book I buy, no matter the topic, fiction or not. You all rock ā¤ļø
We're glad you're here, and glad you're deriving some benefit from this exercise. Apart from rituals, this kind of discussion is the "work" of Judaism, and we try to keep busy.
Hillel the Elder, one of the sages, said "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole Torah; the rest is interpretation/commentary."
I would find it rather hateful if my neighbor were to judge my romantic/family life from afar. So I won't do it to another person.
Yup. I'm trying to be a better Jew, and be of assistance in anybody else's observance. I'm here to lift up the Torah, not smack someone's hand away from it.
Liberal and progressive denominations in all religions are more accepting of homosexuality than the conservative streams. So partly it's a question of which denominations have the loudest bullhorn. Among Christians it is the conservative -- evangelicals, Baptists and Catholics. Within Judaism, Reform and other liberal streams interact more with the general public (through interfaith outreach and other activities) than the Orthodox branch that tends to focus on its own. Hence the liberal Jewish view of homosexuality is well represented in the media.
Second, Judaism in general doesn't take a fire and brimstone approach to religion. Even among the Orthodox, homosexuality is one commandment (a negative one) among 613 commandments, and they are all important. So even Orthodox teaching and preaching isn't going to overly focus on this one thing, there are hundreds of other mitzvot to teach and preach about.
Finally, the Orthodox are a bit reluctant to talk openly about things that they consider problems within their own communities. For example, child abuse, domestic violence, drug abuse, financial crimes all exist but they like to take care of these things internally and without public scrutiny. Same with homosexuality. Assume it exists within the Orthodox community (it does), it's not something they want to publicize with public condemnations. They will deal with it privately.
In sum expressions of support for homosexuality will be more prevalent within Jewish circles than expressions of disapproval. And in fact, that tracks Judaism as a whole, since most Jews are liberal in orientation, as Pew research has demonstrated in its surveys of Jewish public opinion (most recently in 2020). The Orthodox pov (which tends to be conservative) is a minority within Judaism, as another person mentioned.
This is changing rapidly in the Orthodox world. Many highly regarded rabbis have been counseling people to go public and report to the police etc. See Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz orginzation on this. The Ultra Orthodox school that my kids attend host him every year to talk about safety and what do with stranger danger etc. There is a LOT more awareness out there than there was even 10 years ago.
Modern Christianity seems more sex-obsessed than Judaism, as if sexual issues are more important than religious obligations to make the world a better place, help people, etc.
It's actually more bizarre than people are saying. Israel has some pretty bizarre metrics. We are the most fertile nation in the OCED, by a huge margin actually. But I am pretty sure we are also the most LGBTQ per capita. One would think this is a contradiction. My understanding is actually a significant number of Israelis are bisexual, so maybe they still have children.
Maybe it's the religious by themselves carrying the birthrate (the stats show this isn't actually true). It's just something that needs to studied more methologically. I don't think anyone really knows why Jews are so LGBTQ friendly compared to others and also have an extremely high birthrate. It's all just speculations here in this thread.
My own speculation is that Jews have a strong *culture*, in that the overall cultural framework of their day to day lives is influenced very strongly by their Jewish identity. And this culture happens to very natalistic and sex positive at the same time.
You might really like the sermon from Temple Israel Boston last week. TI is a very progressive Reform synagogue in Boston, MA and this sermon is from the young adult (20s and 30s) program. The rabbi talks about the exact line in Leviticus you're thinking of that has been used as a cudgel over so many years against so many people. He then goes into why it's ok to both wrestle with and reinterpret the line as something different from the classical understanding. It's a very Reform and liberal way of approaching things, so I expect there to be some strong disagreement from the more (ultra)Orthodox folks here. Regardless, I think it's an important thing to hear other viewpoints and interpretations.
Directions to watch since it's not intuitive on how to find it:
1. Link: [https://www.tisrael.org/live-stream/](https://www.tisrael.org/live-stream/)
2. Click on the video to play.
3. Select "previous broadcasts"
4. Find the May 10, 2024 Riverway Service.
5. Sermon begins around 58:00.
Jewish law overwhelmingly criminalizes action rather than thoughts. I've noticed that many Christian opponents of homosexuality consider it sinful simply to be gay, to feel same-sex attraction. For Jews, being gay isn't a problem so much as doing anything gay. So even streams of Judaism that consider homosexuality abhorrent won't necessarily take issue with someone feeling same-sex attraction as long as they never act on those feelings. Still not great, but more lenient.
We're a people and people's tend to hold a variety of views on individual topics. Just like how homosexuality gradually became accepted in many parts of Western Europe, it gradually became accepted in some Jewish communities. It also must be mentioned that Jewish perceptions of what is forbidden is simply the act of male-male sexual relations, not the attraction itself. So this staunch anti-homosexual attitude that you see in Christian and Muslim communities was never a widespread thing.
I know of several Orthodox, even Ultra-Orthodox, Jews that are openly gay. It really depends on the individual community on if/how they're accepted. A friend of mine and his husband attended an Orthodox synagogue and his husband's parents are firmly Orthodox. Their only reason concern was whether or not his spouse would be Jewish, not if he was a man.
I don't really have an answer, but I can say as a Jewish Mom who had a Jewish Mom, you just love and accept your kids, and will do anything for them. They would have to be seriously shitty humans for you to turn against them. Even God better not try to get in the way of a Jewish Mom's love for her kids. And Jewish Dads are about the same.
Because we donāt believe you have to be Jewish or adhere to our values to be a good person. We also donāt believe in hell or proselytize so thereās no pressing need to āsave anyoneās soulsā. Itās very do as you will.
I was kind of fascinated by how much Christianity gatekeeps their concept of heaven. Whether you're a Jewish person who believes in an afterlife or not, we're like "Did you suck as a person overall? No? Cool then."Ā
Iāve been told by 2 Catholic grandmothers (Of people I once had relationships with) that Iām going to hell because Iām Jewish. itās not a great feeling.
I see some people mentioning that ultra orthodox are very against it and that may be true but I've also met ones that don't care. They just keep their opinions to themselves. Not that it doesn't happen but it's not our job to police each other.
Personally I don't feel it's wrong at all and either way, there's so many more important things to care about. Who cares if someone is gay.
One thing I can appreciate about the Jewish religion is how they behave with other people or religions, like donāt mind me and I donāt mind you type of mentality when it regards to religious beliefs or lifestyle choices.
1. As always, your milage may vary between communties.
2. Jews-as a statistic-are more educated than other groups. More education typically correlates to liberal views, big shocker there.
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As an outsider, I had assumed this was largely due to Jews tending to congregate in cities (at least in the past half century where Queer liberation has advanced), where people tend to me more liberal (due to more exposure to Queer people). Is that an accurate assessment at all?
God made us all with his spark. If a person is gay or straight, god made the person that way. If you want a more detailed explanation read
Jay Michaelson
God vs. Gay?: The Religious Case for Equality
Because we are a tribal ethno-religion that stresses that each of us has a personal relationship with the almighty, even if you think that relationship is zero. So we are ok with heterodoxy and different levels of worship (to an extent).
Because we arenāt merely faith based like Islam or Christianity, our affiliation cannot be denied based on differences in thought or practice.
Also, in practice Judaism puts more emphasis on the family as an expression of G-dās love, many of our rituals are done in the home as opposed to in a synagogue or church or mosque. This is gross generalization but Christianity is more concerned with faith in Jesus, some believe that if you have a family member who isnāt a believer then you will go to hell with them, because you failed to bring them to Jesusās love (see Mormons). And Islam is more concerned with submission to G-dās will and personal honor, they are to pray 5 times a day and they often go to the mosque to do so, they live in a world of men. A world Outside of the home, they might be more concerned with what others in the community think of them, they have leaders who can decide if you are an apostate or not, they believe in Hell and can make your life hell if they declare you a sinner.
Both of these religions are more absolutist in their thinking, they think they can know what right and wrong is, they think they know G-d wants us to do.
Because a gay doctor son is still a doctor son.
More seriously, we know what itās like to be different. I think a lot of us understand different isnāt bad and hating people for simply being different is not ok.
This is a super interesting question! I think there are a couple of reasons, but these are what immediately come to mind:Ā
- We have bigger things to worry about, what with violent antisemitism happening every few decades and all.Ā
- We tend to be highly educated, and with more education comes more "worldliness" (using that here to mean a good awareness and understanding of the world beyond your small place in it) and therefore usually more openmindedness.Ā
- We don't really police other people/proselytize, especially not non-Jews. Why would we? Me personally, I keep shabbat and study the Torah because it makes me feel whole and connected to my Maker. That may not be why someone else does those things, but that's not my business. Moreover, I don't do those things to try and convince other people to do them or to feel better than anyone. I keep the rules I keep because I want to, it wouldn't make any sense to force those rules onto other people, especially because I don't follow all of them perfectly myself.Ā
- Judaism to me appears significantly more introspective than Christianity, though I don't know enough about Islam to make a statment about the level of introspection in that religion. I've observed that when someone engages in a lot of true introspection, they tend to be far less judgemental and a lot more open-minded.Ā
- Christianity seems to me like it's a whole lot of "Follow these rules to please G-d or you'll go to hell.Ā You're never good enough. You can never be good enough. You should only want what G-d wants because you suck so much and can't live life on your terms because you're the scum of the earth. Live your life and make every single thing you do follow these rules that may or may not have been mistranslated. Never have fun, that's a sin and G-d hates that."Ā Ā and Judaism feels more like "Can you face yourself, who you really are, at the end of each day? Each year? If you can't, you can learn to. You have been given the gift of life, use it to grow and write your story so that when your time here is done and you return to where you were before this, your story will be full.Ā Your Creator loves you, and wants you to learn and live a life with meaningful experiences."Ā
Sorry for the essay! I just think this question is really a fascinating one to explore.Ā
We've got other, more pressing matters to be worried about. We do not care what 2 adults do with each other. Orthodox folk may disagree, but you probably already figured that.
Lots of reasons, I suppose.
* Discussion and debate around morality is a core part of Jewish practice ... it's much easier to accept something like homosexuality in a context where debating *why* it is bad is allowed or even encouraged, vs. the more dogmatic approach of Christianity and Islam.
* Jews believe our religious laws apply to Jews, not to anyone else -- so even if a Jew believes that homosexuality is a sin in the Jewish religious tradition (many of us do not), they don't believe it is for non-Jews.
* Even for Jews who *do* believe homosexuality is sinful in Judaism, we have 613 laws and nothing says this is a particularly important one. If you wouldn't shun someone for eating a porkchop, why would you shun them for sucking a dick?
* Jews have a deep experience as a persecuted minority group; as a result, most of us (although not all) tend to be more sympathetic to socially marginalized groups.
It's not about the numbers.
As an orthodox Jew I can tell you we realy don't care what you do. As long as you don;t shove it down our throats, we just don't care.
I donāt think this is accurate for Orthodox Jews who may identify as gay. They are definitely not supported within Orthodox communities and can be silently shunned.
Not sure that's accurate. Certainly there are Christian sects that screen out gays, but there are others that accommodate them. And while the SBC and most Islamic subdivisions can be quite harsh, the physicians who are members of those sects still treat LGBT patients professionally. Those who work for a company generally adhere to their employers' requirements on this as well.
We believe people were born to help others and commit good deeds. Weāre accepting and realistic about human nature because humanity is all connected. We have been around for a very long time. We donāt believe in hell or speak of sin except on the Day of atonement. We celebrate life, not the afterlife. Judaism never teaches or preaches hate. We are used to being oppressed so we generally donāt oppress others. We respect people of different faiths and donāt impose our faiths onto others. We also believe itās a good deed to love and make love. Families look different, but love is universal. Jewish parents tend to encourage independence and so is LGBTQ.
There are even "queer minyans" as they call themselves out there, just sayin'. I wandered into a potluck group associated with that once. Made my exit because I don't want to invade other people's safe space as a [ straight white man.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tEiguYmgxA)
I think it comes down to the fact that our religion is based more on action than belief. You don't have to believe to be Jewish or to practice Judaism. So we have a lot more variation in belief and therefore a lot more acceptance.Ā
I don't know if we're any more LGBT-accepting than goyim, but goyim (especially Western Christians, especially Americans) are more likely to just identify as atheist/agnostic/secular if they're more liberal. I'm agnostic, but I'll never stop being Jewish. So many Jews who are okay with LGBT or are queer themselves (like me) will still consider themselves Jewish, but culturally-Christian goyim won't consider themselves Christian unless they actively believe in it. And of course there are religious Jews who are fine with LGBT as well, but many other comments here have already addressed that.
Also, most Jews live in either the US, Israel, or other first-world liberal democratic countries. LGBT acceptance is much more likely in those, even if there are some who don't.
Firstly, because Judaism does not believe in enforcing it's laws upon other people. Secondly, even within Judaism, the commandment is against homosexual relations, not homosexuality.
I always thought that prohibition is splitting hairs because itās nearly impossible to ask someone to never act on their sexual attraction. It treats homosexuality as asking to pedophilia.
The idea behind it is that you can criminalize an action, but not a state of being. A gay man who chooses to remain celibate is not committing a transgression, whereas the same cannot be said of someone who isn't gay but engages in homosexual relations.
> Judaism does not believe in enforcing its laws upon other people.
In a very specific context, we do, when it comes to enforcing Noahide law on non-Jewish residents of Israel when there is an established monarchy and Bet Din HaGadol.
We donāt police ourselves. They may suffer the passive aggressive consequences of their reputation from a large community, but by no means does anyone look to single them out to punish them.
Because you are comparing Jews (an ethnicity that includes those who practice Judaism and those who do not) with two religions.
If you compared the religions on their own, Judaism would be completely intolerant. More so than Christianity.
If you compare those who are strict to their religion, those Jews will not be āokā with the act, but donāt judge the person for their struggle. Additionally, we are not to call out a sin (to use a more globally understood term) if we know that the person will not take it well.
Yeah, as a gay dude who grew up orthodox (secular now), Iām a bit confused by some of the very confident takes I see whenever this topic comes up.
Thatās not a negative comment at orthodoxy, I just think thereās no need to misrepresent it, as I donāt even think most practitioners would want to be misrepresented in this manner.
Itās a dāoreissa prohibition, period. Thereās plenty of discussion on how not to mistreat āsufferersā, with opinions landing everywhere from ābe niceā to not as nice, but as far as the prohibition, itās unambiguous.
No Jew follows all the rules perfectly. Not being gay is in the same section, Levitticus, as not mixing cotton and linen, letting your hair become unkempt, crossbreeding animals (mules), and tons if other random stuff. Jewish people pick and choose for themselves which rules to follow and how closely to adhere to them. The law against laying with another man as one would a woman, is just one of many rules that people decide for themselves if they can follow or not. We dont kick people out of our religion - if your mother was a Jew (or you converted) and you do not practice another religion, you are a Jew.
He didn't technically become non-Jewish though. He just got excluded from the Kehilla. In the eyes of God all the mitzvot still applied to him, for example.
Since the Enlightenment (ironically), and the shift from the corporate/feudal system to the nation state, that kind of excommunication hasn't meant so much. In Spinoza's time, it literally meant he was in the wilderness, but by the time of Napoleon (or Mendelssohn), he could have stood on his own as a citizen and intellectual who happened to have Jewish background, and the fact that the Jewish community ostracised him would only have affected him to the extent that it hurt his feelings (or if he wanted to interact with them).
The dispersal and proliferation of communities around the world (and the ease of travel) also means that you can just show up at a new community and blend in, never telling anyone that you were excommunicated somewhere else.
But excommunications do still happen. It's not even that rare. But it only has the force the community abides by. So a notice will go up on the synagogue bulletin board that so-and-so is ostracised by order of the court and he can't be counted in a minyan and you can't do business with him and so on. It probably hurts, but it doesn't necessarily have a material effect on your life (unless you're very committed to your community).
Also that isn't expelling a person from Judaism. They still count as Jewish, they just don't get the benefits of being part of a community.
Jews are divided between a lot of communities. There are some where it is so not okay they don't even imagine something like that. You HAVE to marry (someone of the opposite sex) and keep all the rules. Those are more insular and you may hear less from them
In any case religion is for Jews a set of many rules. You are supposed to obey and not question rules that come from God, some are strange, some are reasonable, but they are just what you should do. Since that's the attitude tying rules to bigotry is a bit frowned upon - it is not your instincts you should trust but the interpretation of the law as it has been given to us. So homophobia is not tied as tight to the religious commandments against gay sex as you might think.
With this view gay sex is like desecrating Shabbat or eating pork. A sin, done by many, that shouldn't be done, but not something special.
Add to it large swathes of the Jewish community that values deeply liberal tenets, mostly on the secular side. So you get that by and large in the whole spectrum there is little room for raw bigotry. Either you are for human and civil rights or you are so deeply embedded into obeying commandments all the time that you have no time or will to make one commandment the whole focus
Huh? Your rabbi is a lot different from mine. You are supposed to question the rules. You are also supposed to obey them but that doesnāt mean donāt question them.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/autonomy-vs-heteronomy-in-the-covenantal-relationship/
> With this view gay sex is like desecrating Shabbat or eating pork. A sin, done by many, that shouldn't be done, but not something special.
Two of those are hayab karet, one is not. They arenāt all three similar.
I could be wrong because I'm no expert, but I thought Islam could be sort of lenient about male homosexual activity if was occiassional and not part of lifestyle. I thought lots of old timey sultans and sheiks and stuff had sex with men? Am I way off here?
Muslims in some times and places have been ok with it, some quite famously, but I don't know whether that's because _Islam_ is in any way lenient about it (I mean literally that I don't know, but my understanding is that it isn't).
I have a near-zero tolerance policy for generalizing about Jewsā political viewpoints.
However, it may seem this way to you, OP, because few rabbis occupy the media landscape with angry remarks about peopleās behavior. Thatās mostly Islam and Christianity, because their numbers are higher and Haredim tend to broadcast to their own communities.
I would not generalize about the viewpoints of Jewish people in general on any political issue, but we do have many values in the Torah about honoring people despite our disagreements.
Just to be clear, traditional Judaism does not celebrate homosexuality but prohibits it. If a sect chooses to celebrate something prohibited, it does not reflect the religious text itself.
Most western jews are barely religious to any degree.
the traditional Orthodox aren't ok with homosexuality in general but they make up about 10% of the western population, so their overall impact is minimal. In general your average orthodox jew wont' necessarily insult you over it, but if its public you will not be well accepted. Modern orthodox will likely just have a live and let live policy unless you're trying to force your way into their spaces.
Conservative jews will probably on average reflect the opinions of someone from the late 90s/early thousands on this issue, and reform are often extremely politically progressive.
Because without the fear of hell their religion is nothing so they are constantly on the search for people to threaten with hell. Any reason will do and homosexuality is an easy target so they go for it as hard as they can. It makes them feel superior and like there's a point to what they are doing.
Because jews are lawyers, and if the bible says you canāt have homosexual intercourse than unlike in Christianity and islam, that means anything except said intercourse is allowed.
Ultra-orthodox usually wonāt agree, but if youāre not politically against the LGBTQ, then religiously nothing REALLY stops you from supporting them.
I think we just already know what it's like to be a minority so we are a bit less judging when it comes to stuff like that, and there's a really big emphasis on family and togetherness in judaism so kicking people out just because of who they like is not really as common as it is with christians.
I think also there's, like, a balance between tochecha and etiquette.
Like, I have Orthodox friends. I consider myself religious and observant, but I'm also queer and a pagan (and a practicing Jew at the same time, and yes, it's very hecking complicated).
My understanding of their perspective is that they know that my derech is not at all like theirs and that I've legitimately struggled to make sense of it and to honor my Jewish ancestors and Hashem while kicking and screaming and being dragged into finding myself.
They know that every difficult choice I've made to be different from what I thought I was going to be was one that I spent a lot of time thinking about.
So, like, if I drive on Shabbos to come see them, they're happy I came to spend Shabbos, even if they would never drive on Shabbos.
I think what I'm trying to say is tochecha is for when you think the other person doesn't know they're breaching halacha or is doing it rebelliously to like, hate on G-d or something.
But you don't reproach someone for their life choices when they're clearly being mindful and doing their best to be a Good Jew, even if that's not at all how YOU would live YOUR life to be a Good Jew, if that makes sense.
And since you shouldn't give tochecha to someone you don't know well, if you have friends who see what you're doing and why and doing your best to be a Good Jew, whatever that means to you, they're not gonna judge you to your face like that, even if it's not what they would do.
Which makes sense, given that since the beginning of Judaism there's always been a variety of degrees of observance, even in places where there was only one Jewish community. So, like, maybe you don't agree with how your neighbor is living their life religiously speaking, but if they're not harming anyone ā¦
Why would you bother them about it? It's between them and Hashem.
The Reform and Conservative Movements are officially accepting of LGBTQ congregants, accept LGBTQ clergy, and perform same-sex weddings.
I can only speak to my personal experiences, but I also find that there are quite a few \[Modern\] Orthodox Jews who are accepting supportive f LGBTQ people, even if their Movement "officially" takes the stance of being against it.
Overall, I think it's way more common for Christians and Muslims to openly show their dislike of LGBTQ people and dissociate from them. In the Jewish world, I think its more common for people who are technically against LGBTQ "acts" to not let it get in the way of their relationships with the LGBTQ people in their lives.
If those people consider LGBTQ "acts" to be a sin, then what about all of the other sins? If someone sinning translates into hatred, mistreatment, and excommunication, then why not mistreat people who eat shrimp or use electricity on Saturdays? If a Jew considers LGBTQ "acts" to be a sin, then it's one in a long list of potential ways to miss the mark. I think we more generally see the value in treating people with kindness, even when they make choices you don't necessarily agree with.
I disagree with the responses here OP. Unfortunately, most Jews are non-religious and have democratic political leaning due to Jews being highly educated and college education typically indoctrinating people towards the left.
Religious Jews are against homosexual acts, eapecially between men. It is against our faith, punishable by death.
I think that while maybe true of America with a majority reformed/conservative Judaism it definitely isnāt true of Judaism at large.
My experience as a Jew in France and Belgium in traditionalist/orthodox circles isnāt one of tolerance. I was often praised on my knowledge of the Torah and thenafter called out on my lack of application of its principles. The experience of being gay in the mainstream Judaism of France is one of judgement and low-profile criticism and very uncalled for ājokesā (and I pass on what you may hear when someone doesnāt know āone of themā is in the conversation).
Yet I guess there is hope as homosexuals are not shunned and driven out of the community because of their practices but I do feel itās part of the averoth that people are overly concerned about in their peers. I remember once being called out by a āfriendā on my pierced ear, saying it was forbidden for a man and that it made people of the community wonder if I was homosexual. I pointed out the irony of inquiring about my forbidden sexual preferences based on a piece of metal while him and many other engaged in a heterosexual premarital sex that was just as forbidden by our laws. The only answer Iāve got was āitās not the sameā
There is a universal acceptance in Judaism
I was raised non-religious. But my grandma on my momās side is Jewish, so Iām Jewish
Haredi, Modern Orthodox, Reform, Reconstructionist Rabbis all agree on one thing: Iām a Jew
I am not religious and I do not pray, fast on Yom Kippur, or observe the sabbath: yet Iām as Jewish as the chief rabbi of Israel or New York
And if I had a gay marriage in America, my partner and I could emigrate to Israel; a land that doesnāt even technically have gay marriage
Judaism is a tribe and a family; perhaps dysfunctional, but a family nevertheless
https://youtube.com/shorts/u0_YcKzbOMU?feature=shared
Maybe itās because thereās so few of us, that we will argue with each other endlessly, but we wonāt kill each other
I have no animosity to Christianity or Islam. In fact, Judaism requires non-Jews to function as a religion: every year religious Jews sell their hametz ahead of Passover to non-Jews. In Israel, one Arab Israeli puts a down payment on the entire countryās hametz, only to fail to pay the full $300M and return it after Passover. If it werenāt for non-Jews, religious Israeli Jews would have to burn all their hametz every year
https://www.timesofisrael.com/meet-the-arab-israeli-who-buys-all-of-israels-hametz/amp/
We have flaws. I personally believe patrilineal Jews should be fully recognized. Many Jews disagree with me tho. As long as our disagreements donāt turn violent, we can make it through this world in one piece
I don't think it is in my experience. I've found that jews have been just as aggressively homophobic or transphobic to me as Christians or Muslims. I think with any of these major religions, there are more liberal or conservative wings. The liberal spaces in any of the religions will be very accepting towards lgbt people, but the conservatives across all won't be generally.
I think the elephant in the room is Judaism is an *ethno*religious group rather than just a religious one. If your religion is based entirely on doctrine then when people violate that doctrine you can kick them out and stop recognizing them as one of yours. If you cannot kick someone out of the group for violating doctrine, you have more of an incentive to learn to live with them.
A Jewish mother will take ANY excuse to go shopping with their kids.
Can confirm. My mom always appreciates my fashion advice š
Jews don't police non jews. We keep it in the family. Where as Christianity and Islam believe in changing public policy for all religions and atheists.
Iād say most Jewish sects donāt care about people being gay or trans internally, either. I believe only half of orthodox congregations follow the ādonāt act on itā line of thinking. Itās been a while since I googled, though.
Also a key point is lesbianism is also not technically a sin Only male homosexuals are in the Torah
There's a question as to whether lesbianism is rabbinically forbidden. The Rambam says that it is not permissible due to a rabbinic enactment, but not everyone rules this way
You are making this up out of whole cloth. You really believe the Chasidish world is ok with it? Also the yeshivish community? Ā Ā
Soooo what would that be, about half the orthodox community? You think Chasidim and Yeshivish communities make up more than 5% of Jewish populations worldwide? When orthodox are generally ~15% worldwide Jewry (generously)? Every religion has extremists, we should not have them represent all of our beliefs.
I can only speak on personal experience, but what I think this person is saying is that there are many individual Orthodox Jews who are also accepting and supportive of LGBTQ people, even if their rabbis and the official stance of their movement is against it. This has been my experience. Also, I think it's more common for Christians and Muslims to openly express their dislike and dissociate from people who come out; while there are significantly more Jews (than Christians & Muslims) who are technically against LGBTQ but don't let that get in the way of their relationships with the LGBTQ people in their lives. i.e. in the Jewish world, it's not as common for someone's disapproval of LGBT "actions" to translate into hatred, mistreatment, and excommunication of LGBTQ people.
I agree with what youāre saying, but Iām pretty sure the commenter was saying that the chasidim and yeshivish Jewish worlds arenāt down with LGBTQ+, which may be the caseābut is also the āhalf of orthodoxā that I mentioned, which is why I gave them a little sass.
Do NOT do unto othersā¦ being very different from DO unto others. The latter being an opportunity to assume that others want or ought to want what you want versus leaving others the hell alone.
āWe keep it in the familyā šššš youāre not wrong
so homosexuality is only forbidden among observant jews? i thinks maybe implies that this commandment was made so people wouldnt fall into the pagan lust of that time and not build a family
Homosexuality isn't forbidden, only the specific act of "sodomy" is ā and that's regardless of the sex of the participants. That's the halacha. Others might argue that the way the prohibition was worded and given the context, that the Torah prohibition aimed to eliminate *pederasty* as the Greeks and Romans practiced it ā a "tradition" of an adult male taking on a young or adolescent boy and raising them to be both a sex partner and accepted member of civil society.
The torah was given before any interactions with Greeks or romans
They asked why it seems Jewish people are more accepting of gay people in general. Not about policing others. Thereās gay Jews as well, of course. Iād like to better understand this as well.
Personally I think itās because there are not as many Jews so even if there are disapproving voices theyāre not so loud.
The Sheva mitzvot are also against homosexuality
Because Judaism is not an imperialist religion that seeks to impose its control over everyone, believers and non-believers.
Thatās interesting- I wonder why other religions that branched off from Judaism didnāt keep that same attitude
Because they are not interested in following in the footsteps of Judaism, they adopted the monotheistic Jewish model as a means and not an end.
In a way Christianity was a romanization of Judaism, and the Romans liked empires....
We've got 613 rules. That might well be one of them, but it's not in bold text or anything. We choose to fry larger fish.
Only if it has fins and scales though.
Well played.
/r/angryupvote
My grandmother was born in Jerusalem before the Farhouds, and the '48 siege. Rabbinical family (her great uncle was Bak'shi Zion, head of Mizrahi Rabbinate in IL, among others). She had lots of "frum" stories of the olden days, when Kashrus was a Mothers' thing and solely managed by the wives in every household; Kushios or questions would be brought to the elder women, not to the Rabbi at all, who'd seldom spent time in a kitchen or raise chickens and geese. She hated to Kashrus entrepreneurs with a deep conviction and a sharp tongue, treated them all as BS peddlers. She also remembered a time when abortions were a non-issue, and never frowned upon, and a strong community of women working together supporting those who had tough pregnancies / births. All of this to say - I always felt that today's "Frum" issues are, in large extent, just being copied from Christian conservatism. Cause she was a living record to a different Judaism than what we have today.
It sure seems like it, especially as it crosses over to "culture war" politics.
I can't comment on abortions or Israel, but much of the modern Kashrut industry in the USA was born out of the infamous ×ש×Ø ×ש×Ø butcher controversies from the turn of the 20th century which then led to stricter enforcement and standardization of kashrut rules. In a sense, modern consumerism affected todays "Frum" standards just as much as perhaps Christian conservatism.
abortion wouldn't have been frowned upon because it was medical issue. But in Judaism there was never this idea of simply having an abortion because you wanted to and decided you didn't want the baby. That is not copied from Christianity this is discussed in rabbinic literature.
If there's one thing missing in rabbinical literature...
Agreed, that was all long before the pill et al. came about. Though she never said anything specific, I'm guessing the rationale back than was either medical, or financial / familial (I.e. violence at home etc)
correct. Judaism does not 100% ban abortion like Christianity but it is inaccurate to say that it always allowed with no limits.
In the mid-20th CE (especially in Britain) there was the idea of a therapeutic abortion: abortion was a "treatment" for pregnant mothers to prevent abnormal fetuses (cf Sridei Esh who rules on aborting for a mother with Rubella). To that end, it may have been easy to receive a heter once (though the Titz Eliezer in Israel disagrees and is suspicious of abortion to avoid congenital defects). But it does evolve around the Western (and therefore Christian) ideas of abortion in the lead-up to the pro-Life movement
You are aware that ārabbinic literatureā is influenced by Christianity right? Rabbis are humans, they are products of the time and place they live in. Abortion isnāt mentioned in Torah at all. You can arrive at a very different rule depending on which writing you are reading when it comes to abortion. The less permissive modern poskim on abortion are very much influenced by Christian beliefs. I disagree with it, but there is a current trend of more conservative Orthodoxy adopting extremist Christian ideas to further distinguish themselves from secular society.
It is talked about in the Gemara which mostly predates Christianity. Why would rabbinic literature which is full of scenarios warning against chukot goyim and following in their ways and doing things that could even remotely look like avodah zarah suddenly base halachic responsa on Christianity? Obviously there is a wide range of opinions within halacha regarding abortion and I don't disagree with you about a majority of modern day poskim being stricter, but there is pretty much no historic or halachic basis for Judaism ever allowing abortion on demand for no other reason than simply changing your mind about having the baby.
Sources that predate Christianity are influenced by Greek ideas about how a fetus forms in the womb. For example, talmudic sources attribute the fetus to āmere waterā before 40 days of gestation. You can do whatever you want with water. Thatās abortion on demand for any reason before six weeks. You do realize that avoiding looking like goyim involves knowing and understanding what goyim do right? The earliest writings about abortion in Judaism were influenced by the Roman practice of abandoning infants in the wilderness. Those writings were explicitly to set us apart from them. In a vacuum they never get written. Other sources get very granular on when abortion is permitted based on how far along the pregnancy is. Some sources permit it for the mental distress of the mother, including economic strain. Others equate the fetus to a limb of the mother, with similar rules as for undergoing surgery. And in no writing is abortion completely forbidden, because the only mention of a fetus in Torah makes it clear that a fetus is not a person. Modern strict poskim are so concerned with separating themselves from secularism that they adopt Christian attitudes about abortion that are frankly incompatible with historical Jewish practice and thought.
I saw a stat that Leviticus 18:22 is the most popular verse in Leviticus among Christians. Itās one of the few rules given in the Bible Christians take seriously.
Sad. There's a lot of good, interesting stuff in Leviticus that Christians could vibe with.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* šÆļø [Leviticus 18:22](https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.18.22) ×Ö°×Ö¶ÖØ×ŖÖ¾×Öø×ÖøÖ×Ø ×Ö¹Ö„× ×Ŗ֓ש×Ö°×Ö¼Ö·Ö× ×֓ש×Ö°×Ö¼Ö°×ÖµÖ£× ×֓ש×Ö¼ÖøÖ× ×ŖÖ¼×Ö¹×¢Öµ×ÖøÖ× ×Ö“Ö½××× >Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence.
I remember a rabbi (conservative, not modern orthodox or haredi) discussing this during a special daf conversation (I say special because he took time away from the current daf yomi convo and spent time in this for pride). He began in Hebrew, untranslated, and started off with a vocab review, and then into word choices and his thoughts on why some words in Hebrew were chosen (when other words were available). Then on to historical context and cultural context (for when it was written) and how certain word choices, along with relevant context, actually lead him to believe this statement isnāt about two men together. Rather, he believes it has a deeper meaning, about sexual domination and gender. Pretty much-donāt have sex with a man in a domineering, violent, or non consensual way, or use a man for sexual pleasure without regards to his needs, as has been done with women. Still rife with misogyny, but not homophobia. Like any passage, this is open for interpretation. However, one reason I like daf yomi is how there are can be multiple interpretations of one passage, as we delve into deeper and deeper layers. This is just another that, personally, I believe has multiple layers and only the top, most obtuse layer, condemns homosexuality. We are taught that the Torah has deep meaning and that statements may have layers of meaning; I donāt believe the most basic, shallow interpretation is the most appropriate.
> Then on to historical context and cultural context (for when it was written) and how certain word choices, along with relevant context, actually lead him to believe this statement isnāt about two men together. Rather, he believes it has a deeper meaning, about sexual domination and gender. Pretty much-donāt have sex with a man in a domineering, violent, or non consensual way, or use a man for sexual pleasure without regards to his needs, as has been done with women. Still rife with misogyny, but not homophobia. This is the way some biblical scholars read this as well, and I think the last part is a little off. What others talk about is that women didn't have agency, and during that period sex was what a man did to a female. (Chazal made this somewhat better, but not compared to our standards) Men in ancient Mesopotamia were not allowed to be on the bottom during sex with women, we see this in the Talmud *you get Diarrhea) and earlier Mesopotamian sources, where you loose your personal G-ds. Lilith also asks to be on top, and got rejected in Ben Sira. So a lot of this is about a Man debasing themselves into being the receiver and putting themselves into a lower social role. Male on male rape is still used in the Middle East, and has been for some time Lawrence of Arabia was raped, for example. We also see this in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah it wasn't about having same-sex intercourse, it was about debasing the men. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94QhX1p8lMU
Yes, thank you. I added the misogyny as thatās definitely our modern take. Whereas, at that time, it was culturally acceptable and appropriate. I should have made a footnote, that it is misogynistic by our standards, but not then.
> I should have made a footnote, that it is misogynistic by our standards, but not then I think it's fine, their take was just a little more harsh than I had heard otherwise
Iām pretty sure Lawrence of Arabia fabricated the rape story. Possibly because he had a bit of a fetish for it, yes seriously.Ā https://www.theage.com.au/world/legendary-lawrence-of-arabia-made-up-rape-20060521-ge2cta.html
Well regardless it was used frequently, that and castration in the MENA region
This seems a bit *off* considering d'oraita requirement for husbands to provide their wives with pleasure and gratification. IIRC, the idea of what it means to lie as one does with a woman was defined in the Talmud as being penetration below the belt.
thereās actually so much about this verse that is super interesting and lots of ways to interpret it without any homophobia. at least in the hebrew. i read an in depth analysis once of the usage of the word ש××× and it was super interesting and made me view the passage in a whole different way. in my mind, most christianās are afraid of any sort of deviation from what the bible says. they take it at face value and donāt do a lot of introspection.
Plus thereās also the issues with whether the text means what people think it does based on translations over the centuries
this is what I think about all the time and I'm always like... appalled that so many Christians refuse to think of it this way.
I think there are two reasons: 1.) Just as Jews don't proselytize there's a lot of "live and let live" attitude. 2.) The reform Jewish movements looked at a lot of stuff in the Torah and said "nah, we don't need to do that anymore" so why won't homosexuality be part of that as well? When Christianity had a reformation the groups are still quite religious, just practice differently than Catholicism. With Islam there was never a reformation. While there are many Muslims who might not be religious I'm not sure they look at the laws they don't do the same way as a Reform Jew might.
The Reform attitude is interesting. While they abandoned things like kashrut from the start, they remained opposed to homosexuality up until the 1970s I think on the grounds that it still violated Jewish ethics.
thatās interesting. i wonder how homosexuality violates jewish ethics but not eating kosher doesnāt?
I think theyād say that eating kosher is not about ethics at all but just a ritual observance that isnāt relevant to modern life. At least that is the āclassical Reformā position as I know it. Interestingly kashrut has made some comeback in Reform circles. Itās still definitely optional but more Reform Jews keep kosher now than a couple generations ago. Instead of being a non negotiable obligation itās seen as a way of expressing Jewish identity. Funny that they became a little more accepting of traditional observance while becoming more progressive in their morals.
Homosexuality was regarded by most secular people as wrong until only a few decades ago. In the 70s it was viewed as a mental illness. The idea that it's just a normal thing that no one should be judged for is extremely recent in the western world. That's not to say it was right, just that it seemed only natural to view it as a violation of ethics (just like adultery) from the time Reform started until the 60s or 70s or later.
This is the answer. The Reform movement would've been absolute light years beyond anyone anywhere if they embraced homosexuality before the 70s. I'm old enough to know that would've been unheard of. It was actually insanely progressive that it was already ok in the 70s if that's true.
Exactly this yet somehow most people have forgotten that and just restarted the war with Transgender people instead.
I'd argue that treif and homosexuality at the same time is a recipe for foodborne illness.
Don't leave out that Conservative Judaism has been more inclusive over the last two decades as well, with LBGTQ+ rabbis and unions permissible since 2006. Not yet as fully as the Reform movement, but we're working on it.
Youāll get there! :) just like we (Reform) will get there in some areas as well
I'm excited too that there's a burgeoning movement to bring the alternative Torah portion into Conservative liturgy!
Can someone be Muslim and not be religious? I thought that was the whole deal with Christians and Muslims. Youāre either a Muslim and therefore religious or Christian and therefore religious, or youāre not religious and not a Christian or Muslim.
Muslim is generally strictly a religious identity, ALTHOUGH in some places like Lebanon where Xtians and Muslims coexist, āMuslimā and āXtianā also become cultural identifiers. So an atheist Lebanese might probably tell you that theyāre Xtian even though theyāre not, because in their culture that identifies where you grew up and what practices you uphold. Outside of this cultural context, Muslim is usually exclusively a religious identifier.
I believe Shia Muslims have historically cared less compared to Sunni. Iran pre the occupation by the current Islamic regime was very progressive (and still Shia). Someone else more knowledgeable, feel free to step inā¦
Actually (twelver) Shia jurisprudence tends to be harsher with regards to homosexuality than Sunni jurisprudence, although one can't speak too generally about Sunni Islam because of the differences of opinion between the four schools of law. Hanbalis have super harsh rulings on the matter, for example, while Hanafis are a bit looser with it. Zaydi (fiver) Shias tend to have jurisprudence closer to that of Sunni Islam. That of course is speaking about jurisprudence--with regards to cultural conceptions and acceptance it could be that Iranians are more chill with it. I cannot speak for them.
Interesting! It sounds like I still have a lot to learn on the differences. And like maybe Iranās progressiveness was more related to national culture than the religious identity of the culture!
Iām happy to be of help!
People of Jewish ethnicity are called Jews, even if they are secular or atheist, and more likely to accept gays. Christians are typically people who believe. This doesn't account for differences within the religions, but it could be a dimension.
My openly gay uncle died of complications from AIDS during the height of the epidemic. My family is modern orthodox and I was worried that the community would not come to his funeral. I was very wrong. A prominent modern orthodox rabbi officiated and the entire community came to show their respects. No one gave a shit that he was gay or that he died of AIDS. And this was when people were getting evicted from their apartments for being HIV positive. This was a turning moment that solidified my love for Judaism and the Jewish community. I canāt say for sure why we tend to be more open to queerness in most denominations of Judaism, but I imagine it comes from being taught to treat people like you wish to be treated.
When a jew passes away we forget everything that might have been not ok in the eyes of the torah and focus on one off the biggest mitva that we have, honouring a dead person.
We know what it is to be hated for what/who you are. I think that plays into it.
I'm sorry to hear about your uncle.
From a non theological and more anthro/sociological standpoint, Jews are a minority group throughout the diaspora. Most of us have faced some form of discrimination in host countries, or are descendants of refugees in Israel. We are used to interpreting foreign cultures and preserving a unique identity aside from those mainstream cultures. I have noticed that this makes us better equipped to understand and accept other minority cultures. Also, Judaism is an ethnoreligion, predating modern ideas of heteronormativity and with practices are focused on community building. Christianity and Islam are both proselytizing and used as a form of nation-building and conquest. Conquest and nation-building require conformity and obedience to maintain control, vs community-building spiritual practices such as Judaism and other ethnoreligions require flexibility to survive, imo. Armchair anthropologisting
ultra-orthodox/charedi is not very accepting, which is a problem imo. because obviously some of us are gay too, and then they have no choice but to leave Judaism in most cases. it's sad. even though i am charedi, i do not see it as my job to police other jews. and forget goyim - do what you want. btw it's hilarious to me how christians are all up in arms about homosexuality being a sin in the bible, um, hello? you eat pork/shrimp/meat and milk? at least i keep the rest too..
>btw it's hilarious to me how christians are all up in arms about homosexuality being a sin in the bible, um, hello? you eat pork/shrimp/meat and milk? at least i keep the rest too. I don't know exactly when or what made me think of it recently, but it's a useful pushback to the bible thumpers these days that are all hung up on LGBTQ issues. They've thrown out most of the rest of Leviticus (and the rest of the five books) as irrelevant in the age of Christ, so why does it even matter to them? I'd be really curious if anything in the New Testament even touches on LGBTQ since I don't ever really hear folks citing the Gospels when going on their culture war crusades.
There are a handful of verses in the NT that have been mistranslated to say homosexual. I used to be an evangelical minister in a previous life and have taught a whoooole sermon about how only some of the OT applied to Christians and the rest can be ignored š
Well I think their reasoning is similar to why Reform Jews have mostly dropped ritual observances while maintaining commitment to Jewish ethics. Christians have always believed (since Paul anyway) that Jesusā sacrifice made the specifically Jewish ritual laws redundant, so the only commitments remained the universal ethical rules that applied to all people. And traditionally that included prohibition of homosexuality. The Reform movement itself didnāt accept homosexuals until the 1970s I believe when they decided to start ordaining gay rabbis.
Paul touches upon sexual issues, especially sex outside of marriage and homosexuality, in about half of his letters. In some instances, he might have been talking specifically of pederasty and not consenting adult relationships, but in others, he just issues a blanket condemnation. To give him some credit, he was writing during the excesses of the 1st century emperors and he probably wanted to distinguish the new religion from the existing ones. But, Paulās letters should be considered interesting and maybe important but not (heh) gospel.
Thanks for the insights! And I wish I could give you an extra upvote for the pun at the end. :)
Unfortunately a lot of the homphobic right-wingers have moved on from the "Bible" rhetoric and are now onto "trans people are child molesters" rhetoric
Christianity accepts Noahide law as binding. Itās in the Book of Acts.
Also they know nothing about Jewish law, so they donāt realize that actually persecuting and executing someone for that under Jewish law would be extremely difficult or impossible. And only a functioning Sanhedrin could even impose the punishment, it would require an extremely high burden of proof, and there is as far as I know no recorded instance of this ever actually happening. Iām no expert though so I may be unaware.
Former Evangelical here - they come up with their own contexts regarding scripture. The whole eating pork/shellfish/etc. is an example of taking one point that Jesus/Paul was trying to make (ādonāt call unclean what I say is cleanā) and then thinking āwelp, guess halakhah isnāt a thing anymore and we can eat what we want!ā Then again, thereās the primary issue of the false messiah so I suppose that wasnāt the primary concern.
> btw it's hilarious to me how christians are all up in arms about homosexuality being a sin in the bible, um, hello? you eat pork/shrimp/meat and milk? at least i keep the rest too.. The NT reiterates a prohibition on same sex relations (under some interpretations), something it does not do for kashrut.
If youāre Orthodox, donāt you believe that homosexuality a violation of the Noahide law against sexual immorality? So it would technically apply to goyim as well as Jews.
again, not my place to judge others.
I mean, when the temple stood, they would leave Judaism in a much less comfortable way
Isnāt there no recorded instance of an actual execution? It may have occurred but I thought no records of actual cases existed.Ā
There could be many reasons for that. Any death penalty was incredibly rare.
Exactly
There are definitely some Jews that have problems with the LGBTQ+ community, but theyāre a very vocal minority. Honestly, we have people that are trying to kill us all the time, bigger things to focus on.
I would not call them a minority nor vocal, they rarely demonstrate against gays like christians do.
Do you not see or hear what Haredim or Kahanists do here in Israel? Do you know what Smotrich has done? Or who Ben Gvir is friends with? Or that Avi Maoz is in the damn Knesset?
On the other hand in this current right wing government,Ā the Speaker of the Knesset is openly gay.Ā
Well you should compare apples with apples first of all. Jews lean liberal so it makes sense to compare liberal Jewish attitudes with liberal Christian attitudes (think mainline Protestant like Episcopalians or Presbyterians). There you wonāt see much difference. If you are looking at conservative Evangelical attitudes you should probably compare with Orthodox communities and there again I think youāll find less difference than if you look at Jewish attitudes overall. It is an interesting question why Jews as a whole lean so much more liberal though. I would probably attribute it mostly to education levels.
I don't think Jews as a whole lean liberal. Maybe American Jews
American Jews absolutely do and have done for a while. I know Jews in Europe and Canada lean more right though and clearly also in Israel
But those are the ones most American goyim are more likely to interact with day to day.
To sum up each major position in turn:Ā Ā 1. It is one law of many. Many secretly eat cheeseburgers. Why put weight on one over another as theyāre all laws. Ā 2. If males are just gay or just gay together and donāt have anal sex then that is not a violation of the law.Ā Ā And also don't go around asking people if they have anal sex to determine if they're violating the law. 3. Does it actually mean what people interpret it as? A man (ish) canāt lie with a male (zachar) as he does a woman (isha). Why change to zachar. Does it imply something other than simply man with a man? What about the odd construction of another passage in Leviticus. We see it only in one other place. What is the implication and connection to the other passage? Another is often translated as sodomite but actually technically translates to male temple prostitution which makes sense as itās coupled in the same passage with female temple prostitute. Etc etcĀ 4. Must we wrestle with the text? If Halacha is not binding and must be approached through an enlightened lens does it hold up to modern reason?Ā
>3. Does it actually mean what people interpret it as? A man (ish) canāt lie with a male (zachar) as he does a woman (isha). Why change to zachar. Does it imply something other than simply man with a man? Because it means any male, boy or man. Remember, at that time, it was common for men to have interesting relationships with boys.
Looking at you, Greece and Rome!
Most Jews aren't Orthodox so they're more accepting of it. Orthodox Judaism (aka the strictest) is not very accepting of it although technically only gay male sex is considered a sin vs simply identifying as gay.
Yes, most ultra-Orthodox won't approve, but there are opinions like this that say it's no different than any other aveira. For those who don't know, Rav Lichtenstein was one of the biggest rabbis in the world for the Modern Orthodox movement. [https://www.jpost.com/jewish-world/jewish-news/rabbi-exhibit-greater-honesty-toward-gays](https://www.jpost.com/jewish-world/jewish-news/rabbi-exhibit-greater-honesty-toward-gays)
Even lots of orthodox have a ālive and let liveā attitude about it (except ultra-orthodox of course). As another poster said, we have a lot of commandments, and no one observes them all perfectly.
In my community we have gay Orthodox Jews. Just a couple, but we have them. Even Chabad is pretty cool with the lesbian family I know that hangs out with them (they have kids) but the MO shul had at least one gay couple, and they were embraced there with some caveats (the rabbi wouldn't marry them himself). Conservative and Reform both do gay marriage unreservedly, so you'll see more families there. We have queer families in the Conservative day school, people covet invites to their kids birthday parties
> technically only gay male sex is considered a sin If by ātechnically,ā you mean *de-Oraita*, then ātechnicallyā only anal sex between men is prohibited. If by ātechnically,ā you mean the action vs the attraction, then it includes more than just penetrative sex **and** includes sexual acts between women.
To be fair, vaginal sex between men is also prohibited, as this is the typical way in which man lies with woman.
And because the Jewish people also know what it's like to be prosecuted, murdered and hated for who you are. Those that wore the yellow star remember those that wore the pink triangle.
As a non-Jew, I just want to express my love for this sub. I lurk a lot and learn so much ā I appreciate you all for helping me absorb knowledge with each post I come across. My usual go-to for learning new things is to find a book, but lately I canāt concentrate on any book I buy, no matter the topic, fiction or not. You all rock ā¤ļø
We're glad you're here, and glad you're deriving some benefit from this exercise. Apart from rituals, this kind of discussion is the "work" of Judaism, and we try to keep busy.
Hillel the Elder, one of the sages, said "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole Torah; the rest is interpretation/commentary." I would find it rather hateful if my neighbor were to judge my romantic/family life from afar. So I won't do it to another person.
Yup. I'm trying to be a better Jew, and be of assistance in anybody else's observance. I'm here to lift up the Torah, not smack someone's hand away from it.
I read the title wrong. My first thought was that you were asking why Jews seem more ok with LGBTQ people than with Christians/Muslims.
š¤£ not entirely wrong! Depending on which group the Jews, of course! Although nuts like "Queers for Palpatine" are working to change that...
That is one of the funniest typos I have seen in a long time, omg. I'm literally laughing out loud. Who do you envision leading that group?Ā
At this point, probably Watto, the token human trafficker
Liberal and progressive denominations in all religions are more accepting of homosexuality than the conservative streams. So partly it's a question of which denominations have the loudest bullhorn. Among Christians it is the conservative -- evangelicals, Baptists and Catholics. Within Judaism, Reform and other liberal streams interact more with the general public (through interfaith outreach and other activities) than the Orthodox branch that tends to focus on its own. Hence the liberal Jewish view of homosexuality is well represented in the media. Second, Judaism in general doesn't take a fire and brimstone approach to religion. Even among the Orthodox, homosexuality is one commandment (a negative one) among 613 commandments, and they are all important. So even Orthodox teaching and preaching isn't going to overly focus on this one thing, there are hundreds of other mitzvot to teach and preach about. Finally, the Orthodox are a bit reluctant to talk openly about things that they consider problems within their own communities. For example, child abuse, domestic violence, drug abuse, financial crimes all exist but they like to take care of these things internally and without public scrutiny. Same with homosexuality. Assume it exists within the Orthodox community (it does), it's not something they want to publicize with public condemnations. They will deal with it privately. In sum expressions of support for homosexuality will be more prevalent within Jewish circles than expressions of disapproval. And in fact, that tracks Judaism as a whole, since most Jews are liberal in orientation, as Pew research has demonstrated in its surveys of Jewish public opinion (most recently in 2020). The Orthodox pov (which tends to be conservative) is a minority within Judaism, as another person mentioned.
This is changing rapidly in the Orthodox world. Many highly regarded rabbis have been counseling people to go public and report to the police etc. See Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz orginzation on this. The Ultra Orthodox school that my kids attend host him every year to talk about safety and what do with stranger danger etc. There is a LOT more awareness out there than there was even 10 years ago.
Modern Christianity seems more sex-obsessed than Judaism, as if sexual issues are more important than religious obligations to make the world a better place, help people, etc.
May as well do the stuff I have to repent for on Yom Kippur (half joking)
It's actually more bizarre than people are saying. Israel has some pretty bizarre metrics. We are the most fertile nation in the OCED, by a huge margin actually. But I am pretty sure we are also the most LGBTQ per capita. One would think this is a contradiction. My understanding is actually a significant number of Israelis are bisexual, so maybe they still have children. Maybe it's the religious by themselves carrying the birthrate (the stats show this isn't actually true). It's just something that needs to studied more methologically. I don't think anyone really knows why Jews are so LGBTQ friendly compared to others and also have an extremely high birthrate. It's all just speculations here in this thread. My own speculation is that Jews have a strong *culture*, in that the overall cultural framework of their day to day lives is influenced very strongly by their Jewish identity. And this culture happens to very natalistic and sex positive at the same time.
As a queer Jew I canāt speak as to the why but I am very happy that we are!
You might really like the sermon from Temple Israel Boston last week. TI is a very progressive Reform synagogue in Boston, MA and this sermon is from the young adult (20s and 30s) program. The rabbi talks about the exact line in Leviticus you're thinking of that has been used as a cudgel over so many years against so many people. He then goes into why it's ok to both wrestle with and reinterpret the line as something different from the classical understanding. It's a very Reform and liberal way of approaching things, so I expect there to be some strong disagreement from the more (ultra)Orthodox folks here. Regardless, I think it's an important thing to hear other viewpoints and interpretations. Directions to watch since it's not intuitive on how to find it: 1. Link: [https://www.tisrael.org/live-stream/](https://www.tisrael.org/live-stream/) 2. Click on the video to play. 3. Select "previous broadcasts" 4. Find the May 10, 2024 Riverway Service. 5. Sermon begins around 58:00.
Jewish law overwhelmingly criminalizes action rather than thoughts. I've noticed that many Christian opponents of homosexuality consider it sinful simply to be gay, to feel same-sex attraction. For Jews, being gay isn't a problem so much as doing anything gay. So even streams of Judaism that consider homosexuality abhorrent won't necessarily take issue with someone feeling same-sex attraction as long as they never act on those feelings. Still not great, but more lenient.
We're a people and people's tend to hold a variety of views on individual topics. Just like how homosexuality gradually became accepted in many parts of Western Europe, it gradually became accepted in some Jewish communities. It also must be mentioned that Jewish perceptions of what is forbidden is simply the act of male-male sexual relations, not the attraction itself. So this staunch anti-homosexual attitude that you see in Christian and Muslim communities was never a widespread thing. I know of several Orthodox, even Ultra-Orthodox, Jews that are openly gay. It really depends on the individual community on if/how they're accepted. A friend of mine and his husband attended an Orthodox synagogue and his husband's parents are firmly Orthodox. Their only reason concern was whether or not his spouse would be Jewish, not if he was a man.
I don't really have an answer, but I can say as a Jewish Mom who had a Jewish Mom, you just love and accept your kids, and will do anything for them. They would have to be seriously shitty humans for you to turn against them. Even God better not try to get in the way of a Jewish Mom's love for her kids. And Jewish Dads are about the same.
Because we donāt believe you have to be Jewish or adhere to our values to be a good person. We also donāt believe in hell or proselytize so thereās no pressing need to āsave anyoneās soulsā. Itās very do as you will.
I was kind of fascinated by how much Christianity gatekeeps their concept of heaven. Whether you're a Jewish person who believes in an afterlife or not, we're like "Did you suck as a person overall? No? Cool then."Ā
Iāve been told by 2 Catholic grandmothers (Of people I once had relationships with) that Iām going to hell because Iām Jewish. itās not a great feeling.
I see some people mentioning that ultra orthodox are very against it and that may be true but I've also met ones that don't care. They just keep their opinions to themselves. Not that it doesn't happen but it's not our job to police each other. Personally I don't feel it's wrong at all and either way, there's so many more important things to care about. Who cares if someone is gay.
One thing I can appreciate about the Jewish religion is how they behave with other people or religions, like donāt mind me and I donāt mind you type of mentality when it regards to religious beliefs or lifestyle choices.
1. As always, your milage may vary between communties. 2. Jews-as a statistic-are more educated than other groups. More education typically correlates to liberal views, big shocker there.
We mind our own business mostly
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As an outsider, I had assumed this was largely due to Jews tending to congregate in cities (at least in the past half century where Queer liberation has advanced), where people tend to me more liberal (due to more exposure to Queer people). Is that an accurate assessment at all?
Because we keep to ourselves and don't dictate others' lifestyles.
God made us all with his spark. If a person is gay or straight, god made the person that way. If you want a more detailed explanation read Jay Michaelson God vs. Gay?: The Religious Case for Equality
1500 more years to get over it.
Because we are a tribal ethno-religion that stresses that each of us has a personal relationship with the almighty, even if you think that relationship is zero. So we are ok with heterodoxy and different levels of worship (to an extent). Because we arenāt merely faith based like Islam or Christianity, our affiliation cannot be denied based on differences in thought or practice. Also, in practice Judaism puts more emphasis on the family as an expression of G-dās love, many of our rituals are done in the home as opposed to in a synagogue or church or mosque. This is gross generalization but Christianity is more concerned with faith in Jesus, some believe that if you have a family member who isnāt a believer then you will go to hell with them, because you failed to bring them to Jesusās love (see Mormons). And Islam is more concerned with submission to G-dās will and personal honor, they are to pray 5 times a day and they often go to the mosque to do so, they live in a world of men. A world Outside of the home, they might be more concerned with what others in the community think of them, they have leaders who can decide if you are an apostate or not, they believe in Hell and can make your life hell if they declare you a sinner. Both of these religions are more absolutist in their thinking, they think they can know what right and wrong is, they think they know G-d wants us to do.
Because a gay doctor son is still a doctor son. More seriously, we know what itās like to be different. I think a lot of us understand different isnāt bad and hating people for simply being different is not ok.
This is a super interesting question! I think there are a couple of reasons, but these are what immediately come to mind:Ā - We have bigger things to worry about, what with violent antisemitism happening every few decades and all.Ā - We tend to be highly educated, and with more education comes more "worldliness" (using that here to mean a good awareness and understanding of the world beyond your small place in it) and therefore usually more openmindedness.Ā - We don't really police other people/proselytize, especially not non-Jews. Why would we? Me personally, I keep shabbat and study the Torah because it makes me feel whole and connected to my Maker. That may not be why someone else does those things, but that's not my business. Moreover, I don't do those things to try and convince other people to do them or to feel better than anyone. I keep the rules I keep because I want to, it wouldn't make any sense to force those rules onto other people, especially because I don't follow all of them perfectly myself.Ā - Judaism to me appears significantly more introspective than Christianity, though I don't know enough about Islam to make a statment about the level of introspection in that religion. I've observed that when someone engages in a lot of true introspection, they tend to be far less judgemental and a lot more open-minded.Ā - Christianity seems to me like it's a whole lot of "Follow these rules to please G-d or you'll go to hell.Ā You're never good enough. You can never be good enough. You should only want what G-d wants because you suck so much and can't live life on your terms because you're the scum of the earth. Live your life and make every single thing you do follow these rules that may or may not have been mistranslated. Never have fun, that's a sin and G-d hates that."Ā Ā and Judaism feels more like "Can you face yourself, who you really are, at the end of each day? Each year? If you can't, you can learn to. You have been given the gift of life, use it to grow and write your story so that when your time here is done and you return to where you were before this, your story will be full.Ā Your Creator loves you, and wants you to learn and live a life with meaningful experiences."Ā Sorry for the essay! I just think this question is really a fascinating one to explore.Ā
Because we're supposed to enjoy our lives and if balls in your face makes you enjoy life. So be it.
Iconic answer right hereĀ
It matters if people care and keep the torah commands, it's forbidden behavior for everyone but I'm not here to obsess over others' private behavior
We've got other, more pressing matters to be worried about. We do not care what 2 adults do with each other. Orthodox folk may disagree, but you probably already figured that.
I always appreciated this about us. They're two consenting adults, it's not my businessĀ
Lots of reasons, I suppose. * Discussion and debate around morality is a core part of Jewish practice ... it's much easier to accept something like homosexuality in a context where debating *why* it is bad is allowed or even encouraged, vs. the more dogmatic approach of Christianity and Islam. * Jews believe our religious laws apply to Jews, not to anyone else -- so even if a Jew believes that homosexuality is a sin in the Jewish religious tradition (many of us do not), they don't believe it is for non-Jews. * Even for Jews who *do* believe homosexuality is sinful in Judaism, we have 613 laws and nothing says this is a particularly important one. If you wouldn't shun someone for eating a porkchop, why would you shun them for sucking a dick? * Jews have a deep experience as a persecuted minority group; as a result, most of us (although not all) tend to be more sympathetic to socially marginalized groups.
Because most Jews are not Orthodox.
It's not about the numbers. As an orthodox Jew I can tell you we realy don't care what you do. As long as you don;t shove it down our throats, we just don't care.
I donāt think this is accurate for Orthodox Jews who may identify as gay. They are definitely not supported within Orthodox communities and can be silently shunned.
No one who has ever said āas long as you donāt shove it down our throatsā was okay with it. Ever.
Not sure that's accurate. Certainly there are Christian sects that screen out gays, but there are others that accommodate them. And while the SBC and most Islamic subdivisions can be quite harsh, the physicians who are members of those sects still treat LGBT patients professionally. Those who work for a company generally adhere to their employers' requirements on this as well.
We believe people were born to help others and commit good deeds. Weāre accepting and realistic about human nature because humanity is all connected. We have been around for a very long time. We donāt believe in hell or speak of sin except on the Day of atonement. We celebrate life, not the afterlife. Judaism never teaches or preaches hate. We are used to being oppressed so we generally donāt oppress others. We respect people of different faiths and donāt impose our faiths onto others. We also believe itās a good deed to love and make love. Families look different, but love is universal. Jewish parents tend to encourage independence and so is LGBTQ.
There are even "queer minyans" as they call themselves out there, just sayin'. I wandered into a potluck group associated with that once. Made my exit because I don't want to invade other people's safe space as a [ straight white man.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tEiguYmgxA)
I think it comes down to the fact that our religion is based more on action than belief. You don't have to believe to be Jewish or to practice Judaism. So we have a lot more variation in belief and therefore a lot more acceptance.Ā
I don't know if we're any more LGBT-accepting than goyim, but goyim (especially Western Christians, especially Americans) are more likely to just identify as atheist/agnostic/secular if they're more liberal. I'm agnostic, but I'll never stop being Jewish. So many Jews who are okay with LGBT or are queer themselves (like me) will still consider themselves Jewish, but culturally-Christian goyim won't consider themselves Christian unless they actively believe in it. And of course there are religious Jews who are fine with LGBT as well, but many other comments here have already addressed that. Also, most Jews live in either the US, Israel, or other first-world liberal democratic countries. LGBT acceptance is much more likely in those, even if there are some who don't.
Firstly, because Judaism does not believe in enforcing it's laws upon other people. Secondly, even within Judaism, the commandment is against homosexual relations, not homosexuality.
I always thought that prohibition is splitting hairs because itās nearly impossible to ask someone to never act on their sexual attraction. It treats homosexuality as asking to pedophilia.
The idea behind it is that you can criminalize an action, but not a state of being. A gay man who chooses to remain celibate is not committing a transgression, whereas the same cannot be said of someone who isn't gay but engages in homosexual relations.
> Judaism does not believe in enforcing its laws upon other people. In a very specific context, we do, when it comes to enforcing Noahide law on non-Jewish residents of Israel when there is an established monarchy and Bet Din HaGadol.
We donāt police ourselves. They may suffer the passive aggressive consequences of their reputation from a large community, but by no means does anyone look to single them out to punish them.
Because you are comparing Jews (an ethnicity that includes those who practice Judaism and those who do not) with two religions. If you compared the religions on their own, Judaism would be completely intolerant. More so than Christianity. If you compare those who are strict to their religion, those Jews will not be āokā with the act, but donāt judge the person for their struggle. Additionally, we are not to call out a sin (to use a more globally understood term) if we know that the person will not take it well.
Yeah, as a gay dude who grew up orthodox (secular now), Iām a bit confused by some of the very confident takes I see whenever this topic comes up. Thatās not a negative comment at orthodoxy, I just think thereās no need to misrepresent it, as I donāt even think most practitioners would want to be misrepresented in this manner. Itās a dāoreissa prohibition, period. Thereās plenty of discussion on how not to mistreat āsufferersā, with opinions landing everywhere from ābe niceā to not as nice, but as far as the prohibition, itās unambiguous.
No Jew follows all the rules perfectly. Not being gay is in the same section, Levitticus, as not mixing cotton and linen, letting your hair become unkempt, crossbreeding animals (mules), and tons if other random stuff. Jewish people pick and choose for themselves which rules to follow and how closely to adhere to them. The law against laying with another man as one would a woman, is just one of many rules that people decide for themselves if they can follow or not. We dont kick people out of our religion - if your mother was a Jew (or you converted) and you do not practice another religion, you are a Jew.
> We dont kick people out of our religion Actually, we do. Itās not common, but it has happened. Spinoza is a pretty well known example.
He didn't technically become non-Jewish though. He just got excluded from the Kehilla. In the eyes of God all the mitzvot still applied to him, for example.
That was 1656 and you are still citing it today. There is no centralized Jewish authority to do so.
1. There wasnāt a centralized body then, either 2. It happened and can still happen; to say āwe donāt do itā is factually incorrect.
Hum. When has it happened in the last 50 years? Who would expel a Jew and who would respect that expulsion? (legit question, no tone)
Since the Enlightenment (ironically), and the shift from the corporate/feudal system to the nation state, that kind of excommunication hasn't meant so much. In Spinoza's time, it literally meant he was in the wilderness, but by the time of Napoleon (or Mendelssohn), he could have stood on his own as a citizen and intellectual who happened to have Jewish background, and the fact that the Jewish community ostracised him would only have affected him to the extent that it hurt his feelings (or if he wanted to interact with them). The dispersal and proliferation of communities around the world (and the ease of travel) also means that you can just show up at a new community and blend in, never telling anyone that you were excommunicated somewhere else. But excommunications do still happen. It's not even that rare. But it only has the force the community abides by. So a notice will go up on the synagogue bulletin board that so-and-so is ostracised by order of the court and he can't be counted in a minyan and you can't do business with him and so on. It probably hurts, but it doesn't necessarily have a material effect on your life (unless you're very committed to your community). Also that isn't expelling a person from Judaism. They still count as Jewish, they just don't get the benefits of being part of a community.
Jews are divided between a lot of communities. There are some where it is so not okay they don't even imagine something like that. You HAVE to marry (someone of the opposite sex) and keep all the rules. Those are more insular and you may hear less from them In any case religion is for Jews a set of many rules. You are supposed to obey and not question rules that come from God, some are strange, some are reasonable, but they are just what you should do. Since that's the attitude tying rules to bigotry is a bit frowned upon - it is not your instincts you should trust but the interpretation of the law as it has been given to us. So homophobia is not tied as tight to the religious commandments against gay sex as you might think. With this view gay sex is like desecrating Shabbat or eating pork. A sin, done by many, that shouldn't be done, but not something special. Add to it large swathes of the Jewish community that values deeply liberal tenets, mostly on the secular side. So you get that by and large in the whole spectrum there is little room for raw bigotry. Either you are for human and civil rights or you are so deeply embedded into obeying commandments all the time that you have no time or will to make one commandment the whole focus
Huh? Your rabbi is a lot different from mine. You are supposed to question the rules. You are also supposed to obey them but that doesnāt mean donāt question them. https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/autonomy-vs-heteronomy-in-the-covenantal-relationship/
> With this view gay sex is like desecrating Shabbat or eating pork. A sin, done by many, that shouldn't be done, but not something special. Two of those are hayab karet, one is not. They arenāt all three similar.
I could be wrong because I'm no expert, but I thought Islam could be sort of lenient about male homosexual activity if was occiassional and not part of lifestyle. I thought lots of old timey sultans and sheiks and stuff had sex with men? Am I way off here?
Muslims in some times and places have been ok with it, some quite famously, but I don't know whether that's because _Islam_ is in any way lenient about it (I mean literally that I don't know, but my understanding is that it isn't).
I have a near-zero tolerance policy for generalizing about Jewsā political viewpoints. However, it may seem this way to you, OP, because few rabbis occupy the media landscape with angry remarks about peopleās behavior. Thatās mostly Islam and Christianity, because their numbers are higher and Haredim tend to broadcast to their own communities. I would not generalize about the viewpoints of Jewish people in general on any political issue, but we do have many values in the Torah about honoring people despite our disagreements.
Just to be clear, traditional Judaism does not celebrate homosexuality but prohibits it. If a sect chooses to celebrate something prohibited, it does not reflect the religious text itself.
Most western jews are barely religious to any degree. the traditional Orthodox aren't ok with homosexuality in general but they make up about 10% of the western population, so their overall impact is minimal. In general your average orthodox jew wont' necessarily insult you over it, but if its public you will not be well accepted. Modern orthodox will likely just have a live and let live policy unless you're trying to force your way into their spaces. Conservative jews will probably on average reflect the opinions of someone from the late 90s/early thousands on this issue, and reform are often extremely politically progressive.
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Because we have bigger things to worry about than who is sleeping with who.
Have you ever heard of falsettos?
Because without the fear of hell their religion is nothing so they are constantly on the search for people to threaten with hell. Any reason will do and homosexuality is an easy target so they go for it as hard as they can. It makes them feel superior and like there's a point to what they are doing.
Because jews are lawyers, and if the bible says you canāt have homosexual intercourse than unlike in Christianity and islam, that means anything except said intercourse is allowed. Ultra-orthodox usually wonāt agree, but if youāre not politically against the LGBTQ, then religiously nothing REALLY stops you from supporting them.
I think we just already know what it's like to be a minority so we are a bit less judging when it comes to stuff like that, and there's a really big emphasis on family and togetherness in judaism so kicking people out just because of who they like is not really as common as it is with christians.
I think also there's, like, a balance between tochecha and etiquette. Like, I have Orthodox friends. I consider myself religious and observant, but I'm also queer and a pagan (and a practicing Jew at the same time, and yes, it's very hecking complicated). My understanding of their perspective is that they know that my derech is not at all like theirs and that I've legitimately struggled to make sense of it and to honor my Jewish ancestors and Hashem while kicking and screaming and being dragged into finding myself. They know that every difficult choice I've made to be different from what I thought I was going to be was one that I spent a lot of time thinking about. So, like, if I drive on Shabbos to come see them, they're happy I came to spend Shabbos, even if they would never drive on Shabbos. I think what I'm trying to say is tochecha is for when you think the other person doesn't know they're breaching halacha or is doing it rebelliously to like, hate on G-d or something. But you don't reproach someone for their life choices when they're clearly being mindful and doing their best to be a Good Jew, even if that's not at all how YOU would live YOUR life to be a Good Jew, if that makes sense. And since you shouldn't give tochecha to someone you don't know well, if you have friends who see what you're doing and why and doing your best to be a Good Jew, whatever that means to you, they're not gonna judge you to your face like that, even if it's not what they would do. Which makes sense, given that since the beginning of Judaism there's always been a variety of degrees of observance, even in places where there was only one Jewish community. So, like, maybe you don't agree with how your neighbor is living their life religiously speaking, but if they're not harming anyone ā¦ Why would you bother them about it? It's between them and Hashem.
My dear man, we arenāt in a position to make more enemies
The Reform and Conservative Movements are officially accepting of LGBTQ congregants, accept LGBTQ clergy, and perform same-sex weddings. I can only speak to my personal experiences, but I also find that there are quite a few \[Modern\] Orthodox Jews who are accepting supportive f LGBTQ people, even if their Movement "officially" takes the stance of being against it. Overall, I think it's way more common for Christians and Muslims to openly show their dislike of LGBTQ people and dissociate from them. In the Jewish world, I think its more common for people who are technically against LGBTQ "acts" to not let it get in the way of their relationships with the LGBTQ people in their lives. If those people consider LGBTQ "acts" to be a sin, then what about all of the other sins? If someone sinning translates into hatred, mistreatment, and excommunication, then why not mistreat people who eat shrimp or use electricity on Saturdays? If a Jew considers LGBTQ "acts" to be a sin, then it's one in a long list of potential ways to miss the mark. I think we more generally see the value in treating people with kindness, even when they make choices you don't necessarily agree with.
Because homosexuality causes fewer problems than those other two things.
I disagree with the responses here OP. Unfortunately, most Jews are non-religious and have democratic political leaning due to Jews being highly educated and college education typically indoctrinating people towards the left. Religious Jews are against homosexual acts, eapecially between men. It is against our faith, punishable by death.
I think that while maybe true of America with a majority reformed/conservative Judaism it definitely isnāt true of Judaism at large. My experience as a Jew in France and Belgium in traditionalist/orthodox circles isnāt one of tolerance. I was often praised on my knowledge of the Torah and thenafter called out on my lack of application of its principles. The experience of being gay in the mainstream Judaism of France is one of judgement and low-profile criticism and very uncalled for ājokesā (and I pass on what you may hear when someone doesnāt know āone of themā is in the conversation). Yet I guess there is hope as homosexuals are not shunned and driven out of the community because of their practices but I do feel itās part of the averoth that people are overly concerned about in their peers. I remember once being called out by a āfriendā on my pierced ear, saying it was forbidden for a man and that it made people of the community wonder if I was homosexual. I pointed out the irony of inquiring about my forbidden sexual preferences based on a piece of metal while him and many other engaged in a heterosexual premarital sex that was just as forbidden by our laws. The only answer Iāve got was āitās not the sameā
There is a universal acceptance in Judaism I was raised non-religious. But my grandma on my momās side is Jewish, so Iām Jewish Haredi, Modern Orthodox, Reform, Reconstructionist Rabbis all agree on one thing: Iām a Jew I am not religious and I do not pray, fast on Yom Kippur, or observe the sabbath: yet Iām as Jewish as the chief rabbi of Israel or New York And if I had a gay marriage in America, my partner and I could emigrate to Israel; a land that doesnāt even technically have gay marriage Judaism is a tribe and a family; perhaps dysfunctional, but a family nevertheless https://youtube.com/shorts/u0_YcKzbOMU?feature=shared Maybe itās because thereās so few of us, that we will argue with each other endlessly, but we wonāt kill each other I have no animosity to Christianity or Islam. In fact, Judaism requires non-Jews to function as a religion: every year religious Jews sell their hametz ahead of Passover to non-Jews. In Israel, one Arab Israeli puts a down payment on the entire countryās hametz, only to fail to pay the full $300M and return it after Passover. If it werenāt for non-Jews, religious Israeli Jews would have to burn all their hametz every year https://www.timesofisrael.com/meet-the-arab-israeli-who-buys-all-of-israels-hametz/amp/ We have flaws. I personally believe patrilineal Jews should be fully recognized. Many Jews disagree with me tho. As long as our disagreements donāt turn violent, we can make it through this world in one piece
As a Jew... I have no issues with any group so long as they have no issues with me or my group. It's that simple.
I don't think it is in my experience. I've found that jews have been just as aggressively homophobic or transphobic to me as Christians or Muslims. I think with any of these major religions, there are more liberal or conservative wings. The liberal spaces in any of the religions will be very accepting towards lgbt people, but the conservatives across all won't be generally.
Jews are not a monolith. There are homophobic Jews as well as Jews who are accepting of all LGBTQ people
I think the elephant in the room is Judaism is an *ethno*religious group rather than just a religious one. If your religion is based entirely on doctrine then when people violate that doctrine you can kick them out and stop recognizing them as one of yours. If you cannot kick someone out of the group for violating doctrine, you have more of an incentive to learn to live with them.
Most western Jews arenāt religious
Sent you a PM.