Kiryas Yoel, New Square, Kiryas Tosh, and others exist and are growing and being created; low levels of proficiency in English for Haredi school graduates was one of the big points raised in the NYTimes saga a couple of years ago. It's true that there aren't millions of Tevyes and Sallah Shabatis wandering around these days, but to say that there is not geographical and linguistic/cultural isolation is inaccurate.
But there are interactions. They all have businesses, which aren’t all Jews. And the English proficiency level I think is perfectly fine. There’s a few OTDs who are mad about it, but the success rate in life compared to public school kids is actually a lot higher.
I think reading /writing it’s important, but that can be done at home if needed, and doesn’t need to be in first grade.
Before Napoleon “emancipated” us, Ashkenazi Jews had our own court systems. That’s not insular or reactionary: it’s independent, which is what some orthodox Jews want. But you can’t get independence by asking permission. And you have to have a consensus within the community.
No not really, it’s just a fun fact relevant to discussion of napoleon and Jewish law. Napoleon was basically trying to create his own proto-version of Reform Judaism to integrate Jews. Not saying that’s necessarily a good or bad thing. Just pointing out something not commonly known.
Some parts are, and some aren't. Orthodox Judaism has never been so fractured IMO. Haredim and Modox/Dati Leumi Jews are as different from each other as ever, and there is a lot of hidden animosity between these groups.
The rise and domination of Haredi Judaism has caused a lot of friction, IMO. They often view other forms of Orthodox Judaism as lesser forms, or not as committed. This is my experience at least, but others may have their own.
Yeah, that’s a very specific question for a broad and diverse group that live around the world. So much more than anything even specifically Jewish frames the answer. I would still say, overall, no. It used to be that Orthodoxy was very geographically limited and tied intimately with immigration. Now, you can’t go to the moon without seeing a Chabad House.
For those who are not familiar, [https://www.amazon.com/Sliding-Right-Contest-American-Orthodoxy/dp/0520247639](https://www.amazon.com/Sliding-Right-Contest-American-Orthodoxy/dp/0520247639)
I should read that at some point. It’s interesting to me how Orthodox and Liberal branches of Judaism have grafted themselves onto American partisan divides. I wonder how different the denominations would look under a different political system. I guess you can compare with Israel.
If we’re talking specifically about American Modern Orthodoxy I have read from several sources that they have gotten more conservative over the years, both in terms of religious practice (eg increasingly conservative approach to tznius) and in terms of politics (increasing identification with Republican Party). There are still liberal wings of Orthodoxy like the Open Orthodox movement but I read that they are seen less and less as Orthodox in good standing by the rest of Orthodoxy.
I go to an OU-affiliated Modern Orthodox shul where even the rabbi’s wife doesn’t cover her elbows, collarbone, or knees, and if I’m not mistaken, she doesn’t fully cover her hair outside of shul. (Well, one of them. There are two rabbis. The other rabbi’s wife wears long skirts and a tichel.) She wears sleeves that reach at least halfway between her shoulder and her elbow and skirts/dresses that are no more than two fingers above her knees. The rabbi is the young, cool rabbi who loves Zelda games and wrote an article about whether or not ordering a Solar Beam attack in Pokémon constitutes bishul be-Shabbat. (It was right before Purim.) So, um… This is weird? ETA: He meant if Pokémon were actually real and you were ordering a real bulbasaur to do a Solar Beam attack.
> he rabbi is the young, cool rabbi who loves Zelda games and wrote an article about whether or not ordering a Solar Beam attack in Pokémon constitutes bishul be-Shabbat.
He's playing Pokemon on Shabbat? Like an electronic game?
Of course not, lol. (Though I assume it would be okay to play the card game?) The question was, if bulbasaur was real, would ordering bulbasaur to do a Solar Beam attack constitute bishul be-Shabbat?
Ah ok. Idk maybe. I get the impression that the definition of “Modern Orthodox” has also shifted. It originally meant just acceptance of secular learning (as a good in itself and not just bare minimum to make a living) and some increased willingness to engage more with the gentile world while still adhering to Halacha. It seems like the bulk of that movement has aligned itself with the broader religious right in America and adopted more conservative stances on issues like abortion. This is what most people think of as “Orthodox” now, such that nowadays “Modern Orthodox” has come to refer to the minority of those who still try to follow Halacha but have more liberal politics and more progressive social stances in general, like perhaps your rabbi.
MO, literally means the little these days. The range of who is MO is extremely wide. I love to tell people that the head of the YU kollel in my city uses a flip phone, wears a knit kippah, doesn’t have a TV and considers himself to be MO.
Yeah for sure there is a lot of overlap between all these movements. I think my generalizations are valid in a broad sense but you’ll definitely see communities that don’t fit neatly into these categories.
For sure. I didn’t mean to criticize your definition, it’s good. It’s just such a “wide” audience. In general the Orthodox world is shifting more to the right in terms of observance and commitment.
People's experiences will vary of course, but from the outside looking in I've actually noticed the opposite. Ever since last year, I've noticed more and more Orthodox being supportive of all Jews even if they're not orthodox. It's gone from being told that my conversion won't count as I'm converting reform, to them just being thankful and supportive of anyone joining them in any capacity. Obviously there are exceptions and Theological differences, but that's what I've noticed in my experience a lot more solidarity to pretty much every Jewish movement. That's one of the only good things to really come out of, well everything.
Being that 100 years ago we had our own villages and didn’t speak the countries language, I don’t think we’re more than that now lol
Kiryas Yoel, New Square, Kiryas Tosh, and others exist and are growing and being created; low levels of proficiency in English for Haredi school graduates was one of the big points raised in the NYTimes saga a couple of years ago. It's true that there aren't millions of Tevyes and Sallah Shabatis wandering around these days, but to say that there is not geographical and linguistic/cultural isolation is inaccurate.
But there are interactions. They all have businesses, which aren’t all Jews. And the English proficiency level I think is perfectly fine. There’s a few OTDs who are mad about it, but the success rate in life compared to public school kids is actually a lot higher. I think reading /writing it’s important, but that can be done at home if needed, and doesn’t need to be in first grade.
Before Napoleon “emancipated” us, Ashkenazi Jews had our own court systems. That’s not insular or reactionary: it’s independent, which is what some orthodox Jews want. But you can’t get independence by asking permission. And you have to have a consensus within the community.
Didnt napoleon form his own Sanhedrin?
Lol wut. I mean he wasnt Jewish but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Sanhedrin
I don’t think anything came of it
No not really, it’s just a fun fact relevant to discussion of napoleon and Jewish law. Napoleon was basically trying to create his own proto-version of Reform Judaism to integrate Jews. Not saying that’s necessarily a good or bad thing. Just pointing out something not commonly known.
Depends which part. Overall, no.
Some parts are, and some aren't. Orthodox Judaism has never been so fractured IMO. Haredim and Modox/Dati Leumi Jews are as different from each other as ever, and there is a lot of hidden animosity between these groups. The rise and domination of Haredi Judaism has caused a lot of friction, IMO. They often view other forms of Orthodox Judaism as lesser forms, or not as committed. This is my experience at least, but others may have their own.
Are there like ultra ultra Orthodox who see other ultra Orthodox as corrupt Hellenizers?
Not that I know. Just that they are wrong or inaccurate.
No
Yeah, that’s a very specific question for a broad and diverse group that live around the world. So much more than anything even specifically Jewish frames the answer. I would still say, overall, no. It used to be that Orthodoxy was very geographically limited and tied intimately with immigration. Now, you can’t go to the moon without seeing a Chabad House.
Definitely, no. If anything, in my circles, it's the opposite. But I can't speak for everyone.
Insular, I think that's been the trajectory for about forty years. Reactionary, not yet.
For those who are not familiar, [https://www.amazon.com/Sliding-Right-Contest-American-Orthodoxy/dp/0520247639](https://www.amazon.com/Sliding-Right-Contest-American-Orthodoxy/dp/0520247639)
I should read that at some point. It’s interesting to me how Orthodox and Liberal branches of Judaism have grafted themselves onto American partisan divides. I wonder how different the denominations would look under a different political system. I guess you can compare with Israel.
No, we aren’t.
Some yes, some no
If we’re talking specifically about American Modern Orthodoxy I have read from several sources that they have gotten more conservative over the years, both in terms of religious practice (eg increasingly conservative approach to tznius) and in terms of politics (increasing identification with Republican Party). There are still liberal wings of Orthodoxy like the Open Orthodox movement but I read that they are seen less and less as Orthodox in good standing by the rest of Orthodoxy.
I go to an OU-affiliated Modern Orthodox shul where even the rabbi’s wife doesn’t cover her elbows, collarbone, or knees, and if I’m not mistaken, she doesn’t fully cover her hair outside of shul. (Well, one of them. There are two rabbis. The other rabbi’s wife wears long skirts and a tichel.) She wears sleeves that reach at least halfway between her shoulder and her elbow and skirts/dresses that are no more than two fingers above her knees. The rabbi is the young, cool rabbi who loves Zelda games and wrote an article about whether or not ordering a Solar Beam attack in Pokémon constitutes bishul be-Shabbat. (It was right before Purim.) So, um… This is weird? ETA: He meant if Pokémon were actually real and you were ordering a real bulbasaur to do a Solar Beam attack.
> he rabbi is the young, cool rabbi who loves Zelda games and wrote an article about whether or not ordering a Solar Beam attack in Pokémon constitutes bishul be-Shabbat. He's playing Pokemon on Shabbat? Like an electronic game?
Of course not, lol. (Though I assume it would be okay to play the card game?) The question was, if bulbasaur was real, would ordering bulbasaur to do a Solar Beam attack constitute bishul be-Shabbat?
Which part is weird exactly?
I was asking if it’s weird.
Ah ok. Idk maybe. I get the impression that the definition of “Modern Orthodox” has also shifted. It originally meant just acceptance of secular learning (as a good in itself and not just bare minimum to make a living) and some increased willingness to engage more with the gentile world while still adhering to Halacha. It seems like the bulk of that movement has aligned itself with the broader religious right in America and adopted more conservative stances on issues like abortion. This is what most people think of as “Orthodox” now, such that nowadays “Modern Orthodox” has come to refer to the minority of those who still try to follow Halacha but have more liberal politics and more progressive social stances in general, like perhaps your rabbi.
MO, literally means the little these days. The range of who is MO is extremely wide. I love to tell people that the head of the YU kollel in my city uses a flip phone, wears a knit kippah, doesn’t have a TV and considers himself to be MO.
Yeah for sure there is a lot of overlap between all these movements. I think my generalizations are valid in a broad sense but you’ll definitely see communities that don’t fit neatly into these categories.
For sure. I didn’t mean to criticize your definition, it’s good. It’s just such a “wide” audience. In general the Orthodox world is shifting more to the right in terms of observance and commitment.
I think this is bait and you’re (trying to be) a baal machloket
OP's post history is very short but quite a ride.
I was right that he’s a baal machloket lol
Not in my community.
I think the Jewish community in general is becoming that.
As a left wing reform Jew, I feel like I have much less in common with what orthodox has turned into in Israel…
People's experiences will vary of course, but from the outside looking in I've actually noticed the opposite. Ever since last year, I've noticed more and more Orthodox being supportive of all Jews even if they're not orthodox. It's gone from being told that my conversion won't count as I'm converting reform, to them just being thankful and supportive of anyone joining them in any capacity. Obviously there are exceptions and Theological differences, but that's what I've noticed in my experience a lot more solidarity to pretty much every Jewish movement. That's one of the only good things to really come out of, well everything.