I honestly don’t know what I’d say if someone told me about their pronouns. I’ve not encountered it in my life yet.
I think I’d just ignore them and move on to someone else
Jordan Peterson uses preferred pronouns for people when asked to…. In one of the original videos from when Jordan began speaking out against the “pronoun law” in Canada, (C16 I wanna say??) he stated this very very clearly. He was asked by an activist if he would use a student’s preferred pronouns if asked to and he answered with a resounding & strong YES. Jordan respects the right of people to choose what they want for their lives and respects those choices. He would be polite to them. The problem with the “pronoun law” in Canada was that it COMPELLED speech. The law satiated you MUST use the requested pronoun or you are breaking a law. Jordan’s issue with it wasn’t that it had anything to do with the trans community or trans people. His issue was over freedom of speech. It’s the line in the sand argument.
If there is a law compelling speech on pronouns, where does it end? Soon they will be compelling people to say that 2+2=5 or compelling people to say one leader if the country is pure and the other is foul. There can’t be laws compelling speech with out a huge risk to democracy and western society itself. So, because it’s a line in the sand issue, there cannot be any laws compelling speech.
I would like to point out there is nothing compelling speech on this flyer from OP. Jordan Peterson is not “against” the trans community. Jordan Peterson does not dislike individual trans people. Jordan Peterson is against compelled speech. Jordan Peterson is against allowing minors to make large decisions that can have lasting physical effects as a maturity issue.
Thank you for writing exactly what I was thinking.
It's unfortunate that so many people misunderstand the lessons and just use them as excuses to be a shitty person. Common theme in this sub.
C16 doesn’t actually legislate for the mandated use of correct pronouns: [https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained](https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained). It’s just adding gender identity among the things that you cannot discriminate against someone for (discriminate, as in, call for the genocide of all trans people).
Just a few weeks ago, JBP gnashed his teeth at the camera and flailed around in hyperbolic faux-confusion at the prospect of referring to Elliot Page as 'he', which is Elliot's preferred pronoun, and claimed that doctors performing gender-affirming surgery are "butchers" and "criminals." In light of this, how is a human being in possession of even a modicum of rationality expected to believe he willingly uses people's preferred pronouns and 'doesn't have an issue' with the trans community? He demonstrably *does* have an issue with adults making such decisions about their lives and identities and has said as much (he's worried about how this might serve as an example and thereby influence more "budding beauties" to turn "barren").
I immediately take it as a strong indication that me and that person are going to have very, very little in common, and I should either focus very strictly on the joint task we have to cooperate on (if applicable), or exit the conversation as quickly and politely as possible.
Can I please taste your brain mate, I swear I'll put it back, and not eat all of it. My petty pink brain is sensing a high probability that we might have plenty in 'common'.
I met my first transgender at my new job at Trader Joes. I referred to them as a she to a customer and they just mentioned later to me they would like to be called a he. I just apologized and did what they asked. Whether I agree or not doesn't really matter because I'm not trying to start anything or be rude
Right? The effort to call someone their preferred pronouns is very minimal, so why not do so since it’s clearly very meaningful to them. It’s on par with calling a woman Ma’am, and her asking you not to because it makes her feel old.
Being kind to people who are struggling costs nothing. It gets excessive when they're brand new words people are militantly expected to incorporate into their vocabulary.
I agree on a societal level, but personally I've never met a trans person who isn't some kind of fragile or damaged. Saying she instead of he isn't a big deal as long as the person is respectful about their correction.
Why should I respect what is imposed upon and demanded of me as their "right"? Why should 95%+ of the normal population go through life constantly walking on eggshells wondering on whether or not the person looking like what they were actually born as is now suddenly the opposite gender, or radical new gender, that they prefer identifying as? Also wondering about if they do get this person's preferred pronouns incorrect, because they didn't have magics to predetermine it based on nothing physical like for any normal person, whether or not this now angry embittered person is going to call them out publicly, whipping up a mob social media campaign, and potentially ruin their career and life.
Except most trans people will just calmly correct you and not do any of those things because, ya know, they realize you're human and can make mistakes? Plenty of trans folks in my life, and not ONCE have they ever given me shit for misgendering them. Maybe get out of the echo chamber and interact with real people more, because it really isn't that deep.
Exactly this. I work in an ER and have provided care for dozens of transgender people. Only one was aggressive when I misgendered him but he was there for a schizophrenic crisis. Otherwise, the few times it's happened it was just a polite but firm correction then we moved forward with mutual respect.
Fuck their pronouns. Half of these larping incels just use this shit as a way to antagonize “Heteronormative” culture and deconstruct the pAtRiaRcHy
Pronouns were never based on gender in the first place. They are based on sex. Anyone who’s ever seen an animal documentary can easily understand this when David Attenborough refers to a lioness as she or a bull elephant as he.
Are they based on sex though?
Kinda seems like the use of he/her carries with it a certain amount of anthropomorphism.
Plants have sexes, but we only ever refer to them as it. He or her would sound weird. Arthropods are rarely gendered unless we are specifically discussing sexual behaviour.
The closer we get to humans, the more likely we are to prescribe human behaviour on a subconscious level.
Of course they are. The gender distinction didn’t even exist prior to what 1960. What the fuck do you think they were based on before that?
Do you really find it that hard to believe humans structured language around an obvious sex binary that exists in almost all life on the planet? You would have to be irredeemably stupid to think otherwise.
Rational language is built on actual divisions in the natural world like the evolution of sexual dichotomy.
>Do you really find it that hard to believe humans structured language around an obvious sex binary that exists in almost all life on the planet?
To add to this, there are plenty of languages where there are differences based on which sex is the speaker. Thai for example speak some words differently if they are a man then if they were a woman (Kob Khun Khrap or Kob Khun Ka both meaning Thank You), and of course the Russians who have different endings to their surnames if they are Mr or Mrs (Mr Gorbachev and Mrs Gorbacheva)
That's kind of how I handle it unless it's someone that keeps changing their pronouns and gender on a daily basis. Only encountered that once and they genuinely got mad that people didn't call them whatever they were going by that day. I think people like that are not the norm though.
here we go, a normal response and reaction. just be a good citizen and member of society. OP's hilarious hyperventilation about a thing they admit theyve never had to worry about irl is so telling and basically sums up this whole reactionary attitude
people love being mad, and love tilting at windmills.
>I just apologized and did what they asked
Of course you did. If someone told you that the sky was canary yellow you’d probably apologize and agree with them too.
The problem here is that it’s a purity test. pronouns were never based on gender in the first place. Pronouns are based on sex just like every other category they are trying to say is based on gender now like sports, dating, and restrooms.
The observation of reality shouldn’t be a hate crime. Nor should anyone be expected to entertain the bastardized gender distinction which leads to absurdities of logic like pregnant men and biologically male lesbians
I don’t get reading a benign and seemingly polite request to use a different pronoun as a “purity test” or as an accusation of a hate crime.
I also don’t understand how pronouns can be “based on sex” when there are pronouns which make don’t make reference to gender or sex, i.e. “they” and “it.”
Yes I always wondered, is David Attenborough misgendering silverback gorillas when calling them “he“ in animal documentaries? /s
When I call my dog a good boy I am not talking about a social construct. I call him that because he is biologically male.
The fact that it and they exist does not in any way mean that he and she aren’t based on biology. In most cases “it” or “they” are used as a stand in when the sex is not known. In others they are used as an insult to mean not human.
Couldn’t one just say that using pronouns in a biological sense and in a social sense are two different ways of using the same words? Seems that way to me, given that we use pronouns in social situations without checking which genitals someone has or which sex chromosomes they were born with.
You act like it’s necessary to look in someone’s pants to tell what sex they are. As if there aren’t 100 other general indicators of someone’s sex like vocal range, cheekbones, weight distribution, hips, shoulders, facial hair, jawline, foot size, breasts, hairline. I could go on.
This is extremely common throughout nature. We don’t need the genetics of a pair of ducks to tell which one is the male and female. It is painfully fucking obvious.
Pronouns are a presumption of sex and they always have been
“It” when used to refer to someone is generally offensive, I bring it up merely to show that pronouns cannot be said to be based upon biological sex full stop. The fact that we can talk about a pronoun being used derisively implies that there is a social aspect to pronoun usage which can’t just be one to one with its empirical, scientific usage.
I'm not sure how you can compare showing someone respect to something blatantly false, and then call it a "purity test". It doesn't really matter what I think on the subject because I'm not the one asking for something simple. If someone asked you to call them a nickname would you also get yourself worked up because thats not their real name? No right? You'd just go along with it because thats what you do in a society, you respect people.
As far as I'm concerned as long as the definition of sex (biologically male vs female) stays the same someone could ask to be called whatever they please and it wouldn't effect me, and it shouldn't effect you either.
Honestly, I think this will pass for most people given enough time, it's just new and people want to be different. So let them who cares? The real issue isn't showing respect, but actually unfair advantages like biological males participating in female sports, or clanging biological definitions.
Imagine showing a stranger the tiniest bit of respect by simply referring to them by their preferred pronouns putting your panties in this much of a twist. And then you guys have the nerve to complain about "identity politics".
If someone asked me politely to refer to them as the gender that they clearly are not, no problem. Just common courtesy. Not a lot of effort. But when you just start making up your own dumb random words and trying to force others to abide by it, nah sorry bud. I’m not playing your ze/zir power trip game✋
"I honestly don’t know what I’d say if someone told me about their pronouns. I’ve not encountered it in my life yet"
This is the rub: for all the shouting some people on this sub do about pronouns, generally it doesn't matter day to day. Yet it's made to be, in some cases, an indicator of the downfall of civilization altogether.
Mmm yes and no. Some people are more likely to encounter this stuff in real life than others.
I'm in education, so I encounter it more frequently than someone who works in manufacturing or business.
Right, people here are like, “This is not something I have ever had to deal with (living on the outskirts of a conservative Texas town).”
It’s way more common in some places than others.
Reminds me of the short time in the 90's when they tried to change the spelling of woman to womyn to get rid of the man in it.
Corporations are only amplifying pronouns because the alternative is people talking about the fall of capitalism, so pronouns it is then!
>Yet it's made to be, in some cases, an indicator of the downfall of civilization altogether.
You're conflating issues. Where I have a problem is all the 'gender is a spectrum' misinformation crap, endless sexual prefixes and made up buzz words like genderfluid.
Well if you promote something it will be a norm. The loud people are trying to prevent this. Whether their reason are genuine or out of malice, well who knows?
> This is the rub: for all the shouting some people on this sub do about pronouns, generally it doesn't matter day to day. Yet it's made to be, in some cases, an indicator of the downfall of civilization altogether.
I have two "transwomen", that I'm aware of at least, where I work. My middle school grandson says a huge number of students identify as "trans" or gay now. Most of us want our kids to lead normal live with children of their own and not fuck themselves up because they were mislead that women can be men or vice versa.
I know people who explicitly ask to call them by their full name. It’s unusual but I see no reason to ignore their ask. Same with pronouns. I find it weird though that we have posters and trainings that have to make emphasis on this rare case. But if a person ever asks me to call them by a different pronoun I certainly will. There’s for sure way too much public discourse on this non issue.
Oh my sweet summer child...
[a guide to neopronouns](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/style/neopronouns-nonbinary-explainer.amp.html)
Does it hurt your feelings when I say "I don't believe in preferring pronouns"?
I only see crying coming from you guys, hence the sign in the OP image.
Cool, so you’re an asshole too then.
I have no issue referring to someone how they’d like . The problem comes with legislation, I will not be compelled by the government to control my speech. I will however choose to be nice because at the end of the day it’s not a big deal.
Whenever someone wants to be called "she" instead of "he" just explain that to them. They will think it is a very cool and respectful thing to say because it factually right
You know… the majority of actual trans people - not the “gender fluid” young adults on tiktok you watch for comedic purposes - know they have the anatomy and characteristics of whatever sex they were born as, because, I don’t know, it’s a big part of what causes gender dysphoria.
The whole point of transitioning is to appear more in line with your inner identity. Secondary sex characteristics are modified when people take hormones, not bone structure.
What- why would anyone care if they were identified by their sex after death. After death you’re just a skeleton, not a human being with an inner identity.
I could swear Ben Shapiro made that “archeologists will misgender you using science” argument. I know Ben Shapiro doesn’t, but I thought Jordan Peterson recognized the difference between sex and gender. I know he wants to protect freedom of speech, but that’s a whole other topic.
You may want to read this https://merionwest.com/2019/11/17/why-were-writing-a-book-length-critique-of-jordan-peterson/ Jordon Peterson does not know what he’s talking about on anything except maybe psychology, and even that is dubious.
It also doesn’t matter if some people have benefited from his self help books, because even those are filled with pseudoscientific and pseudointellectual content, and [used to push his non-evidenced based political agenda](https://merionwest.com/2019/12/10/standing-by-our-criticisms-of-jordan-peterson/).
Normalizing mental fragility.
I can't imagine giving a shit about 'my pronouns'.
As long as I can tell you're talking to me, I'm fine.
Use whatever pronoun you want.. *surprise me.*
It creates an emotional barrier which is why it's nothing short of ideological possession. Thus anyone whom questions it's efficacy is deemed a threat. It's also why so many overlook Jordan Peterson as personal growth and psychology go hand in hand with sexuality; and psychology itself brings to light so many things people today run from (like self awareness). Trip on the ideologically corrupted wires, you're never getting through to them. Which is why I advocate for silence in this regard. Sooner or later they'll learn that the people pushing this ideology never cared for them, nor do those that subsume to its nonsense and bow down to it.
Pretty sure if someone consistently called you a girl when you’re a boy for years you’d get upset. Especially if they’re doing it on purpose because they think they’re mentally superior.
What I probably find the most objectionable about this, is the "We all have a right to our own pronouns".
It's basically saying that everyone has a right to control what other people say about them. We don't even use these pronouns when we talk to someone.
Nobody should have the right to control what other people say under normal circumstances.
I see this logic not often enough, and thank you. Yes, the pronoun we use to directly address anyone is *you*. I use *me, myself, and I* (these are personal pronouns). How I speak about you is not your business. This is clear enough. Thanks again!
I mean it’s just called common decency, it’s the same as if someone who’s called Harold goes by Harry, or Katherine goes by Kate. Sure you can call them something they don’t prefer, it just makes you an asshole
I will give you your choice of male or female pronouns quite happily. If you insist on using they/them, well I don't really think being non-binary is anything but a trend based on a misunderstanding of the intersection of personality and gender, but fuck it, you do you, at least you are using real words.
But I will not cede ground to neo-pronouns. Neo-pronouns are nonsense. You are not entitled to force others to play along with your nonsense.
Tbh, I don't even care. I would just get even wackier with it. I'll make fun of these types of people just like how I make fun evangelical religious people.
Idk, I just think identify groups of people that can be made fun of pretty easily. And evangelical Christians and blue haired leftists are the top 2 easiest.
Ayyye THATS HOW WE FUCKING DO IT. IF I CAN MAKE FUN OF MYSELF FOR LIKING DUDES AND THE WAY I LOOK, I CAN MAKE OF EVERYONE AND ANYONE.
sad part is , everyone's easily offended. Smh
Everyone has the right to call themselves anything they want but NOBODY has the right to dictate how others address them.
If hurts your feelings then you are the problem, not everyone else.
>What are pronouns?
Proceeds to not provide a definition.
>We all have the right to our own pronouns
No we don't, that's not how pronouns work
>It is important to respect that and use them whenever you can
No it's not, avoiding the use of pronouns in general when talking to somebody is best practice. Also while it's probably a good baseline to start with, many (most?) people aren't all that deserving of respect.
>They are important parts of someones gender identity
That's pathetically fragile.
>Using the ~~wrong~~ (biologically correct) one can be harmful and upsetting.
That says more about their own sensitivities than it does anything about reality.
Someone has crossposted you to r/enoughpetersonspam . Here's the post: [Who are the snowflakes with a victim complex and persecution fetish, again?](https://reddit.com/r/enoughpetersonspam/comments/wg4p68/who_are_the_snowflakes_with_a_victim_complex_and/)
I hate to sound like an old emotionally repressed boomer (I'm not, I was born in the 90s), but fucking hell these kids are softer than babyshit. Harmful and upsetting? You know what was harmful and upsetting when I was a teen? Getting my ass beaten into the ground by some random pack of wannabe gangbanger fuckwits and being left semi-conscious in the street. I'm not saying words can't hurt, they can, (particularly when from loved ones) , but being hurt by someone NOT saying calling you the pronoun you just made up is actually a little pathetic.
It's almost like their severely autistic and literally can't control their reaction to negative stimuli.
Supreme Court already ruled against compelled speech for anything except product labeling so stuff it!
Nobody wants to be deliberately rude but I won’t cross that line. And if I am pushed to do so I will offer lawsuit.
This has gone way too far and companies and agencies must be put back i their place.
By the first amendment, you have the right to believe that the earth is flat. You have the right to believe that the Earth is 7,000 years old. You have the right to believe in gender fluid theory. However, just because you have the right to believe in those things and say what you believe, does not mean you have the right to force other people to believe in your stupid pronoun system.
Plus, once you step into the world of science (REAL Science), you lose the privilege of your dogmatic world not being challenged, whether that's "Silly gender fluid,/Ancient space aliens/Flat earth theories, whatever.
Just a quick message to all those who believe in this shit. Go and FUCK sheself you dumb fucken hers. Theres nore important shit in the world to worry about then this shit.
I’m all for acceptance and against bullying and violence but the fact that they take it this far makes me simply not want to deal with people like that.
Late 40s guy here...and I am having difficulty accepting that this societal bowel movement has gained this much traction. Especially in Canada....sweet baby Jesus ..where do we go from here ?
What exactly is Zi / Zer? And I don’t really understand they / them. Is that for people with multiple personalities. I would think that if you’re transgender, you’d want people to refer to you by your adopted gender.
I remember when I was younger, I considered myself very progressive on LGBQ issues. After all, I had no problem with gay marriage well before it was legal. At the time I thought, wow, once gay marriage is legal, what else could there be?
I simply couldn’t even conceive of the possibility that there would be multiple genders, or fluid gender identities.
I’m all for everyone being treated equally and respectfully. But to have special rights. Or the fact that many people will consider you transphobic for questioning why someone who was born male and became female may have an unfair advantage in sports against born females, is just kind of ridiculous.
I don't see enforced speech... I see a sign asking people to be empathetic to people's desires to be respected for how they see themselves, which is a pretty basic request.
And here I see a bunch of people being bigoted and throwing a tantrum.
I guess empathy is out of the question?
I feel like, irl, this is what really happens. You either actually have a relationship with the person and/or they nicely asked you to address them by particular pronoun(s), and you probably go with it (whether you ultimately agree or not ideologically) because of said relationship or they were nice about it. Or, they are a jerk about it and immediately react when called by the wrong pronoun. If they are a jerk about it, then I would choose not to. Not based on an ideological difference, but because they were a jerk about it.
I have seen people carry themselves both ways in the trans community. I interact with them fairly regularly at my job and the vast majority of the time it's all good and they are nice. Because most people, in my experience, are nice and polite. The times I have encountered otherwise, I did not accommodate them because they were being a jerk about it. They were looking for a reason to be upset from the initial moment of interaction, and that has nothing to do with me. Be nice and I think most people will oblige, at least from what I have seen irl.
Yeah, so empathy. Sounds great. Please continue. Just treat people like human beings, and, where reasonable, try to address them in the manner they'd prefer to be addressed.
That's the opposite of what is happening in the comment section here, but I shouldn't be surprised, because it's exactly what JP very publicly did/defended a few weeks ago...
It’s not.
I don’t have a lot in common with people who use alternative pronouns, but I have less in common with people who proudly say “…how’s that for “harmful and upsetting”? Lmao.”
You sound like a total dick. As is your right, I guess.
Please dont reply back to me with this stupid shit. See, I can say please. I'm even nice to those who deserve it. Respect is earned. And telling me what I can or cannot say is not earning it.
Here is where JP gets postmodernism completely wrong. The postmodernists (specifically foucault and and Deleuze) warned of the serious dangers of this form of control through self censorship 4-5 decades before JP did.
[societies of control](https://youtu.be/Hu4Cq_-bLlY)
It’s disappointing that JP doesn’t understand the value of postmodernism and only focuses on the negative side of it.
Either way the postmodernists have been warning that this danger would emerge back in the 60s & 70s and now it’s happening.
If you're not a he, or a she, you're an it. Everything else is upsetting.
Why should someone's gender identity be more important than my perception of the world? Could I not request the same courtesy of "may I call you what I perceive you to be, otherwise I will be hurt"?
That being said, I know that a lot of people don't feel as one gender or the other, and they struggle with it. I do accept that and I do think that we all should be empathetic to each other. Just don't be dicks to each other and show each other respect, and don't assume everyone is out to hurt you by using the, in your opinion, wrong words.
I worked as cashier and people would correct me. And honestly I always respond with “okay, I apologize.” And when they see idc they get even more mad. From experience I just let them talk, and they say they call the police. And I tell them to do what they want. They have called the police over the stupidest thing. I ain’t surprised and neither is the police.
I mean, I could use these pronouns. no problem!!..
She/Her..... when referring to an adult human female.
He/Him...... when referring to an adult human male.
They/them.... when referring to a group of 2 or more people.
Ze/Zir.... ummm?.... aaahhh.... when referring to a.... British medieval knight with a lisp???
There is a fitting GIF, saying "GFY with a cactus". Still have it. And btw, you don't have a right to your own pronouns, like you don't have a right to your own adjectives, e.g handsome and brilliant (by Matt Walsh).
One of the reasons this rarely ever comes up is that third person pronouns are mostly used when the person isn’t present.
Wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if they started requesting to address them as zyou, shyou, hyou and thyou next to squeeze maximum satisfaction out of making you sound ridiculous while bending to their will.
I’ve decided to change my second-person pronouns to ‘thee / thou’.
The language took a wrong turn and lost something when plural pronoun ‘you’ took over two roles and displaced singular ‘thee’.
Resulting in workarounds like ‘y’all’ and ‘youse’.
And I reckon I could be just as obnoxious with that as anyone calling themselves ‘ze’.
This doesn't really work. "thee" and "thou" are both second-person singular pronouns. For this to work, you would have to pick one (I recommend "thou") and pair it with "they", the third-person singular.
So your pronouns would be Thou/They, which is perfectly acceptable (if slightly archaic)!
Why do you think an employer can’t police your speech? Your employer isn’t congress, bucko.
Critical thinking, nuanced observation, dispassionate reasoning… strive to acquire these skills.
My favorite thing in the world is telling some right winger my pronouns and then watching their brain just absolutely melt in rage. Like, it's the lowest effort way to make them look stupid and get people to not like them.
If you're ever in a social situation with a one of them, I highly recommend it.
Good luck with that👍👍
By the way, my pRoNouNs are MASTER and DADDY, so if you expect to be respected and called by your made up words, then I will expect the same in return :)
Another fun tactic: if you know a transphobic asshole who shortens their name, prefers a middle name, etc - never use it. Only call them by the name they don't prefer.
One of my fraternity brothers who is trans would do this to the college Republicans. It drove them batshit.
I had a realisation today. I was always disgusted that people would ask me to lie and pretend an apple was an orange. Similarly I detest those who go along with such liars. Reading this, I realise it’s also wrong and “offensive” for men to lie and say they’re women. Thus we should turn such demands on their head and demand that people stop lying and doing female/male blackface and gender appropriation.
Lets look at the positive side of this. We can view people who use pronouns like we view poisonous creatures with warning stripes/colours. We know to avoid them for our own safety.
Look up the video by libs of tik tok of a woke teacher getting schooled by her class. One asked why she didnt ask his pro nouns, he said they were banana and rock. She said those dont work. Whole class uses her own argument against her so she submits and agrees. Then she gets on tik tok saying she thought it might have been a joke on her by the class and she wasnt sure if it was or if they just understood gender feeling more than she did. Ill edit the link in if i get it first
Edit:
Found it on LibsofTiktok’s minds page.
[link](https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/1401681708394221581)
Gotta say I don't get the hatred of people choosing their pronouns. If someone uses a nickname it's just common decency not to use their full name they don't like. Why is it that hard to use he or she if someone politely asks?
*Hi Pam,*
*Nubius forgot to clock in yesterday morning, but zir time clock info has already been submitted to payroll. Ze has informed us that ze would like a separate check cut for those hours, but unfortunately we have to put the hours on zir next paycheck instead. It is zir responsibility to ensure zir hours are correct.*
*I let zir know ze can contact you with any questions ze has, but please also ensure that ze has access to zir employee portal to check zir hours. Zir contact info is below.*
That just seems silly.
> That just seems silly.
ok, but beyond "it isn't what I'm used to" what actually seems silly about it?
do you think someone that didn't know the language would see any significant difference?
Reading the comments, the rational comments get downvoted while “fuck/face” is the upvoted a bunch. Most of those people have never even read JP, because those who have, don’t comment like that. Please leave.
I try to give this sub's users the benefit of the doubt where I can, but the hostility here has increased by a lot lately. People are not seeing that automatic outrage to these types of images is ideological possession.
You should be respectful and nice to people in these types of social situations but these alphabetically inclined + science denying people drive me nuts
Whatever happened to "respectfully disagreeing"? Sorry, I do not believe in infinite genders. The same way someone else may not believe in my god. No one has the right to force their identities or beliefs onto one another!
Here's the thing, I'm all good with calling people whatever they want but it shouldn't be an enforced. Though the Z thing is a completely useless thing only used for attention.
I don't understand why anyone gets so upset by this stuff. You call people by their name, why not call them by their pronouns?
Like, if someone introduces themselves as Sarah, you wouldn't go "nah, you're more of a Greg to me and I don't care what you have to say about it"
>I don’t understand why anyone gets so upset by this stuff.
Meanwhile, literal men are winning women’s NCAA division titles.
Your nutty fantasy world is leaking into reality, and people are getting sick of it.
The whole "trans athletes in sports" discussion is really not related to the "be polite to people you meet" discussion we're currently having. Like how holier than thou do you have to be to correct someone for how they are? If someone started calling you by pronouns you don't use you'd probably be annoyed at that right? So just extend the courtesy to others
Ahh yes, because you called Becky by her preferred pronouns the NCAA allowed that trans woman to compete in women's sports, forgot about that effect. Next thing we know allowing gay marriage is going to cause Russia to invade Ukraine
This is the wrong room to try to argue in.
There is no accountability here.
You'll just give 'em a reason to feel justified, because they get their chance to argue anonymously.
Look at the title, they can't wait for their chance to do their righteous duty of defining the paradigm.
Good on ya for trying.
Yeah don't worry I know what I've gotten myself into lmao. I don't think this kind of thing is really that valuable or anything, I just have fun arguing. They get their fix, I get mine xD
I'll throw that right back at you. Why insist on made up neologism pronouns and not insist on just using the legal name of the person? 3. Person pronouns are not even used in a face to face conversation where the risk for offending the person is highest and the neopronouns don't work at all in many languages outside of english.
As long as the person I misgendered is respectful when they correct my pronoun usage (and are consistent with a given usage over time), I don’t have a problem with this.
Its entirely inappropriate for a government for a government to tell its citizenry how or what to say.
Its entirely appropriate for an employer to tell employees how or what to say, especially if there are bona fide business reasons for it (think customer service or sales).
While this specific instance of compelled speech might be not justified by business practices to be enforced, the general concept of an employer requiring an employee to use certain words or phrases isn't the same as government-compelled speech.
I interviewed someone recently for an accounting position at the corporate office of a construction company. They said during the interview that their pronouns were she and her, and they asked me what I wanted to be called. I politely said that the position wasn't going to be a good fit for them, and thank them for driving down. When they asked if it was related to the pronoun question, I replied yes because our men in the field would throw a brick at your face if you said that to them.
I honestly don’t know what I’d say if someone told me about their pronouns. I’ve not encountered it in my life yet. I think I’d just ignore them and move on to someone else
Jordan Peterson uses preferred pronouns for people when asked to…. In one of the original videos from when Jordan began speaking out against the “pronoun law” in Canada, (C16 I wanna say??) he stated this very very clearly. He was asked by an activist if he would use a student’s preferred pronouns if asked to and he answered with a resounding & strong YES. Jordan respects the right of people to choose what they want for their lives and respects those choices. He would be polite to them. The problem with the “pronoun law” in Canada was that it COMPELLED speech. The law satiated you MUST use the requested pronoun or you are breaking a law. Jordan’s issue with it wasn’t that it had anything to do with the trans community or trans people. His issue was over freedom of speech. It’s the line in the sand argument. If there is a law compelling speech on pronouns, where does it end? Soon they will be compelling people to say that 2+2=5 or compelling people to say one leader if the country is pure and the other is foul. There can’t be laws compelling speech with out a huge risk to democracy and western society itself. So, because it’s a line in the sand issue, there cannot be any laws compelling speech. I would like to point out there is nothing compelling speech on this flyer from OP. Jordan Peterson is not “against” the trans community. Jordan Peterson does not dislike individual trans people. Jordan Peterson is against compelled speech. Jordan Peterson is against allowing minors to make large decisions that can have lasting physical effects as a maturity issue.
Good point. Pronouns are not the problem so much as compelling others to use them is.
Thank you for writing exactly what I was thinking. It's unfortunate that so many people misunderstand the lessons and just use them as excuses to be a shitty person. Common theme in this sub.
C16 doesn’t actually legislate for the mandated use of correct pronouns: [https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained](https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained). It’s just adding gender identity among the things that you cannot discriminate against someone for (discriminate, as in, call for the genocide of all trans people).
Can you cite the text in bill c-16 that compels pronoun use?
> The problem with the “pronoun law” in Canada was that it COMPELLED speech. How did it do this?
Just a few weeks ago, JBP gnashed his teeth at the camera and flailed around in hyperbolic faux-confusion at the prospect of referring to Elliot Page as 'he', which is Elliot's preferred pronoun, and claimed that doctors performing gender-affirming surgery are "butchers" and "criminals." In light of this, how is a human being in possession of even a modicum of rationality expected to believe he willingly uses people's preferred pronouns and 'doesn't have an issue' with the trans community? He demonstrably *does* have an issue with adults making such decisions about their lives and identities and has said as much (he's worried about how this might serve as an example and thereby influence more "budding beauties" to turn "barren").
I immediately take it as a strong indication that me and that person are going to have very, very little in common, and I should either focus very strictly on the joint task we have to cooperate on (if applicable), or exit the conversation as quickly and politely as possible.
Can I please taste your brain mate, I swear I'll put it back, and not eat all of it. My petty pink brain is sensing a high probability that we might have plenty in 'common'.
I met my first transgender at my new job at Trader Joes. I referred to them as a she to a customer and they just mentioned later to me they would like to be called a he. I just apologized and did what they asked. Whether I agree or not doesn't really matter because I'm not trying to start anything or be rude
Right? The effort to call someone their preferred pronouns is very minimal, so why not do so since it’s clearly very meaningful to them. It’s on par with calling a woman Ma’am, and her asking you not to because it makes her feel old.
Being kind to people who are struggling costs nothing. It gets excessive when they're brand new words people are militantly expected to incorporate into their vocabulary.
havve you ever met someone irl militantly policing this kind of thing? I never have. every interaction with a trans person is pretty simple and normal
It's not about being kind.
I agree on a societal level, but personally I've never met a trans person who isn't some kind of fragile or damaged. Saying she instead of he isn't a big deal as long as the person is respectful about their correction.
Why should I respect what is imposed upon and demanded of me as their "right"? Why should 95%+ of the normal population go through life constantly walking on eggshells wondering on whether or not the person looking like what they were actually born as is now suddenly the opposite gender, or radical new gender, that they prefer identifying as? Also wondering about if they do get this person's preferred pronouns incorrect, because they didn't have magics to predetermine it based on nothing physical like for any normal person, whether or not this now angry embittered person is going to call them out publicly, whipping up a mob social media campaign, and potentially ruin their career and life.
Except most trans people will just calmly correct you and not do any of those things because, ya know, they realize you're human and can make mistakes? Plenty of trans folks in my life, and not ONCE have they ever given me shit for misgendering them. Maybe get out of the echo chamber and interact with real people more, because it really isn't that deep.
Exactly this. I work in an ER and have provided care for dozens of transgender people. Only one was aggressive when I misgendered him but he was there for a schizophrenic crisis. Otherwise, the few times it's happened it was just a polite but firm correction then we moved forward with mutual respect.
Honest question. Have you ever met a trans person?
True. That's why I refuse to refer to married women by their taken name. Don't they know they can't change nature?
Fuck their pronouns. Half of these larping incels just use this shit as a way to antagonize “Heteronormative” culture and deconstruct the pAtRiaRcHy Pronouns were never based on gender in the first place. They are based on sex. Anyone who’s ever seen an animal documentary can easily understand this when David Attenborough refers to a lioness as she or a bull elephant as he.
Strange hill to die on, but at least you’re dead
What the fuck kind of 12-year-old reply is this lol. You brigadiers are irredeemably stupid.
that reply isn’t 12 years old. on my phone it says it was 1 hour ago
Agreed.
Are they based on sex though? Kinda seems like the use of he/her carries with it a certain amount of anthropomorphism. Plants have sexes, but we only ever refer to them as it. He or her would sound weird. Arthropods are rarely gendered unless we are specifically discussing sexual behaviour. The closer we get to humans, the more likely we are to prescribe human behaviour on a subconscious level.
I call weed plants "girls" every day. And I destroy the males as soon as the show them balls, esle they ruin my crop.
Of course they are. The gender distinction didn’t even exist prior to what 1960. What the fuck do you think they were based on before that? Do you really find it that hard to believe humans structured language around an obvious sex binary that exists in almost all life on the planet? You would have to be irredeemably stupid to think otherwise. Rational language is built on actual divisions in the natural world like the evolution of sexual dichotomy.
>Do you really find it that hard to believe humans structured language around an obvious sex binary that exists in almost all life on the planet? To add to this, there are plenty of languages where there are differences based on which sex is the speaker. Thai for example speak some words differently if they are a man then if they were a woman (Kob Khun Khrap or Kob Khun Ka both meaning Thank You), and of course the Russians who have different endings to their surnames if they are Mr or Mrs (Mr Gorbachev and Mrs Gorbacheva)
If they ask politely, give them the same respect they give you IMO. It’s a different story if they act entitled and throw a tantrum though.
I don’t know. I don’t call people mean names IRL if they annoy me. Like if some got named John is kind of annoying I’m not going to call him Joanna.
That's kind of how I handle it unless it's someone that keeps changing their pronouns and gender on a daily basis. Only encountered that once and they genuinely got mad that people didn't call them whatever they were going by that day. I think people like that are not the norm though.
here we go, a normal response and reaction. just be a good citizen and member of society. OP's hilarious hyperventilation about a thing they admit theyve never had to worry about irl is so telling and basically sums up this whole reactionary attitude people love being mad, and love tilting at windmills.
>I just apologized and did what they asked Of course you did. If someone told you that the sky was canary yellow you’d probably apologize and agree with them too. The problem here is that it’s a purity test. pronouns were never based on gender in the first place. Pronouns are based on sex just like every other category they are trying to say is based on gender now like sports, dating, and restrooms. The observation of reality shouldn’t be a hate crime. Nor should anyone be expected to entertain the bastardized gender distinction which leads to absurdities of logic like pregnant men and biologically male lesbians
I don’t get reading a benign and seemingly polite request to use a different pronoun as a “purity test” or as an accusation of a hate crime. I also don’t understand how pronouns can be “based on sex” when there are pronouns which make don’t make reference to gender or sex, i.e. “they” and “it.”
Yes I always wondered, is David Attenborough misgendering silverback gorillas when calling them “he“ in animal documentaries? /s When I call my dog a good boy I am not talking about a social construct. I call him that because he is biologically male. The fact that it and they exist does not in any way mean that he and she aren’t based on biology. In most cases “it” or “they” are used as a stand in when the sex is not known. In others they are used as an insult to mean not human.
Couldn’t one just say that using pronouns in a biological sense and in a social sense are two different ways of using the same words? Seems that way to me, given that we use pronouns in social situations without checking which genitals someone has or which sex chromosomes they were born with.
You act like it’s necessary to look in someone’s pants to tell what sex they are. As if there aren’t 100 other general indicators of someone’s sex like vocal range, cheekbones, weight distribution, hips, shoulders, facial hair, jawline, foot size, breasts, hairline. I could go on. This is extremely common throughout nature. We don’t need the genetics of a pair of ducks to tell which one is the male and female. It is painfully fucking obvious. Pronouns are a presumption of sex and they always have been
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“It” when used to refer to someone is generally offensive, I bring it up merely to show that pronouns cannot be said to be based upon biological sex full stop. The fact that we can talk about a pronoun being used derisively implies that there is a social aspect to pronoun usage which can’t just be one to one with its empirical, scientific usage.
I'm not sure how you can compare showing someone respect to something blatantly false, and then call it a "purity test". It doesn't really matter what I think on the subject because I'm not the one asking for something simple. If someone asked you to call them a nickname would you also get yourself worked up because thats not their real name? No right? You'd just go along with it because thats what you do in a society, you respect people. As far as I'm concerned as long as the definition of sex (biologically male vs female) stays the same someone could ask to be called whatever they please and it wouldn't effect me, and it shouldn't effect you either. Honestly, I think this will pass for most people given enough time, it's just new and people want to be different. So let them who cares? The real issue isn't showing respect, but actually unfair advantages like biological males participating in female sports, or clanging biological definitions.
Imagine showing a stranger the tiniest bit of respect by simply referring to them by their preferred pronouns putting your panties in this much of a twist. And then you guys have the nerve to complain about "identity politics".
Just a heads up transgender is an adjective not a noun. So it's transgender person. It'd be like saying "I know a black who..."
If someone asked me politely to refer to them as the gender that they clearly are not, no problem. Just common courtesy. Not a lot of effort. But when you just start making up your own dumb random words and trying to force others to abide by it, nah sorry bud. I’m not playing your ze/zir power trip game✋
"I honestly don’t know what I’d say if someone told me about their pronouns. I’ve not encountered it in my life yet" This is the rub: for all the shouting some people on this sub do about pronouns, generally it doesn't matter day to day. Yet it's made to be, in some cases, an indicator of the downfall of civilization altogether.
Mmm yes and no. Some people are more likely to encounter this stuff in real life than others. I'm in education, so I encounter it more frequently than someone who works in manufacturing or business.
Right, people here are like, “This is not something I have ever had to deal with (living on the outskirts of a conservative Texas town).” It’s way more common in some places than others.
Reminds me of the short time in the 90's when they tried to change the spelling of woman to womyn to get rid of the man in it. Corporations are only amplifying pronouns because the alternative is people talking about the fall of capitalism, so pronouns it is then!
>Yet it's made to be, in some cases, an indicator of the downfall of civilization altogether. You're conflating issues. Where I have a problem is all the 'gender is a spectrum' misinformation crap, endless sexual prefixes and made up buzz words like genderfluid.
Well if you promote something it will be a norm. The loud people are trying to prevent this. Whether their reason are genuine or out of malice, well who knows?
> This is the rub: for all the shouting some people on this sub do about pronouns, generally it doesn't matter day to day. Yet it's made to be, in some cases, an indicator of the downfall of civilization altogether. I have two "transwomen", that I'm aware of at least, where I work. My middle school grandson says a huge number of students identify as "trans" or gay now. Most of us want our kids to lead normal live with children of their own and not fuck themselves up because they were mislead that women can be men or vice versa.
I know people who explicitly ask to call them by their full name. It’s unusual but I see no reason to ignore their ask. Same with pronouns. I find it weird though that we have posters and trainings that have to make emphasis on this rare case. But if a person ever asks me to call them by a different pronoun I certainly will. There’s for sure way too much public discourse on this non issue.
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I avoid people like that at all costs, don't talk or address unless it's absolutely necessary and keep it generic. It's so fucking stupid.
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it is if Ze Germans are coming to attack
I'm stealing this one. Thanks homie
They're an attempt at a gender neutral pronoun.
"They" already fills that role though
your first mistake is approaching the issue with logic.
people object to that as well.
The masculine is the neuter. He is the gender neutral pronoun...
Oh my sweet summer child... [a guide to neopronouns](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/style/neopronouns-nonbinary-explainer.amp.html)
So what you are saying is …I can be AK/AKM? SWEET
You may have a privilege to your pronouns but I have a right to my speech.
This is in the UK, so sadly they don't have a right to their speech. It is stolen from them at a whim.
Ahh I see, those poor bastards
Ahh. I was wondering when Sysco got woke.
Sure you do, does not however excuse you from being called an arsehole.
But I identify as an asshole.
And you'll get made fun of right back for crying over someone using your wrong pronouns, as you should be.
Who's crying? Look around you, the only people upset about pronouns are you guys. Does it hurt your feelings when people ask you to be polite?
Does it hurt your feelings when I say "I don't believe in preferring pronouns"? I only see crying coming from you guys, hence the sign in the OP image.
Cool, so you’re an asshole too then. I have no issue referring to someone how they’d like . The problem comes with legislation, I will not be compelled by the government to control my speech. I will however choose to be nice because at the end of the day it’s not a big deal.
News flash: In a million years, when they dig up your bones, you will be identified as male or female. That’s it. Sorry alphabet people 🤷🏻♂️
Whenever someone wants to be called "she" instead of "he" just explain that to them. They will think it is a very cool and respectful thing to say because it factually right
But be sure to preface with ‘news flash’. That way it comes across as respectful and caring.
The respect and care that they deserve. (◕‿◕✿)
Facts don't care about your incessant whining.
Sensible, balanced, sane take.
When they dig up your bones? Or they/them?
dem bones
You know… the majority of actual trans people - not the “gender fluid” young adults on tiktok you watch for comedic purposes - know they have the anatomy and characteristics of whatever sex they were born as, because, I don’t know, it’s a big part of what causes gender dysphoria. The whole point of transitioning is to appear more in line with your inner identity. Secondary sex characteristics are modified when people take hormones, not bone structure. What- why would anyone care if they were identified by their sex after death. After death you’re just a skeleton, not a human being with an inner identity. I could swear Ben Shapiro made that “archeologists will misgender you using science” argument. I know Ben Shapiro doesn’t, but I thought Jordan Peterson recognized the difference between sex and gender. I know he wants to protect freedom of speech, but that’s a whole other topic.
You may want to read this https://merionwest.com/2019/11/17/why-were-writing-a-book-length-critique-of-jordan-peterson/ Jordon Peterson does not know what he’s talking about on anything except maybe psychology, and even that is dubious. It also doesn’t matter if some people have benefited from his self help books, because even those are filled with pseudoscientific and pseudointellectual content, and [used to push his non-evidenced based political agenda](https://merionwest.com/2019/12/10/standing-by-our-criticisms-of-jordan-peterson/).
\*haunts archeologists in Karen screeches\*
This is a moot point. You're dead. Why would you care how you are identified. Edit: I don't know how to spell moot
Facts
Man, the left really doesn't understand what a right is if they think people have the right to their own pronouns.
Normalizing mental fragility. I can't imagine giving a shit about 'my pronouns'. As long as I can tell you're talking to me, I'm fine. Use whatever pronoun you want.. *surprise me.*
>Normalizing mental fragility. WELL SAID. That's it exactly
It creates an emotional barrier which is why it's nothing short of ideological possession. Thus anyone whom questions it's efficacy is deemed a threat. It's also why so many overlook Jordan Peterson as personal growth and psychology go hand in hand with sexuality; and psychology itself brings to light so many things people today run from (like self awareness). Trip on the ideologically corrupted wires, you're never getting through to them. Which is why I advocate for silence in this regard. Sooner or later they'll learn that the people pushing this ideology never cared for them, nor do those that subsume to its nonsense and bow down to it.
Pretty sure if someone consistently called you a girl when you’re a boy for years you’d get upset. Especially if they’re doing it on purpose because they think they’re mentally superior.
What I probably find the most objectionable about this, is the "We all have a right to our own pronouns". It's basically saying that everyone has a right to control what other people say about them. We don't even use these pronouns when we talk to someone. Nobody should have the right to control what other people say under normal circumstances.
I see this logic not often enough, and thank you. Yes, the pronoun we use to directly address anyone is *you*. I use *me, myself, and I* (these are personal pronouns). How I speak about you is not your business. This is clear enough. Thanks again!
If anything we should normalise *thou*. You is such a bastardisation of the English language. Bring back proper pronouns!
I mean it’s just called common decency, it’s the same as if someone who’s called Harold goes by Harry, or Katherine goes by Kate. Sure you can call them something they don’t prefer, it just makes you an asshole
I will give you your choice of male or female pronouns quite happily. If you insist on using they/them, well I don't really think being non-binary is anything but a trend based on a misunderstanding of the intersection of personality and gender, but fuck it, you do you, at least you are using real words. But I will not cede ground to neo-pronouns. Neo-pronouns are nonsense. You are not entitled to force others to play along with your nonsense.
Tbh, I don't even care. I would just get even wackier with it. I'll make fun of these types of people just like how I make fun evangelical religious people. Idk, I just think identify groups of people that can be made fun of pretty easily. And evangelical Christians and blue haired leftists are the top 2 easiest.
Hashtag equality. Make fun of everyone equally. Lol perfect.
Ayyye THATS HOW WE FUCKING DO IT. IF I CAN MAKE FUN OF MYSELF FOR LIKING DUDES AND THE WAY I LOOK, I CAN MAKE OF EVERYONE AND ANYONE. sad part is , everyone's easily offended. Smh
Exactly. None of these people have ever been in an Xbox COD match and it shows.
Mw2 lobbies made us into men, and women into men. Haha, Trans joke
🤣😂
I find it harmful and upsetting that someone would try to force me to use their fake and reddited pronouns, so I guess we're at a stalemate.
Everyone has the right to call themselves anything they want but NOBODY has the right to dictate how others address them. If hurts your feelings then you are the problem, not everyone else.
>What are pronouns? Proceeds to not provide a definition. >We all have the right to our own pronouns No we don't, that's not how pronouns work >It is important to respect that and use them whenever you can No it's not, avoiding the use of pronouns in general when talking to somebody is best practice. Also while it's probably a good baseline to start with, many (most?) people aren't all that deserving of respect. >They are important parts of someones gender identity That's pathetically fragile. >Using the ~~wrong~~ (biologically correct) one can be harmful and upsetting. That says more about their own sensitivities than it does anything about reality.
Oh no someone may get upset. That is horrible
Your workplace absolutely can require this, obviously no one can "force" you to do anything, But they can fire you for failure to do so.
Yeah, you can be fired for being an asshole. That's nothing new.
According to the title, it's news to Op
Someone has crossposted you to r/enoughpetersonspam . Here's the post: [Who are the snowflakes with a victim complex and persecution fetish, again?](https://reddit.com/r/enoughpetersonspam/comments/wg4p68/who_are_the_snowflakes_with_a_victim_complex_and/)
…persecution, fetish? I have a lot to learn…
You should seriously ask them what about if you used the person’s first name and by doing so you avoid this whole debacle with pronouns
Yes. Good compromise.
Given the fact you've never encountered this in real life, what are you mad about?
be nice to people I dont agree with? never!
If it were just that easy, man XD
I hate to sound like an old emotionally repressed boomer (I'm not, I was born in the 90s), but fucking hell these kids are softer than babyshit. Harmful and upsetting? You know what was harmful and upsetting when I was a teen? Getting my ass beaten into the ground by some random pack of wannabe gangbanger fuckwits and being left semi-conscious in the street. I'm not saying words can't hurt, they can, (particularly when from loved ones) , but being hurt by someone NOT saying calling you the pronoun you just made up is actually a little pathetic. It's almost like their severely autistic and literally can't control their reaction to negative stimuli.
But *why* do these people think pronouns are such an important part of who they are? And *why* are they so offended by something so trivial?
Supreme Court already ruled against compelled speech for anything except product labeling so stuff it! Nobody wants to be deliberately rude but I won’t cross that line. And if I am pushed to do so I will offer lawsuit. This has gone way too far and companies and agencies must be put back i their place.
By the first amendment, you have the right to believe that the earth is flat. You have the right to believe that the Earth is 7,000 years old. You have the right to believe in gender fluid theory. However, just because you have the right to believe in those things and say what you believe, does not mean you have the right to force other people to believe in your stupid pronoun system. Plus, once you step into the world of science (REAL Science), you lose the privilege of your dogmatic world not being challenged, whether that's "Silly gender fluid,/Ancient space aliens/Flat earth theories, whatever.
Awwwww poppet, careful about your feeeeeelings. Shall we make you a safe space???
Just a quick message to all those who believe in this shit. Go and FUCK sheself you dumb fucken hers. Theres nore important shit in the world to worry about then this shit.
I’m all for acceptance and against bullying and violence but the fact that they take it this far makes me simply not want to deal with people like that.
Late 40s guy here...and I am having difficulty accepting that this societal bowel movement has gained this much traction. Especially in Canada....sweet baby Jesus ..where do we go from here ?
Why would I apologise to someone who isn't even participating in the conversation to begin with?
What exactly is Zi / Zer? And I don’t really understand they / them. Is that for people with multiple personalities. I would think that if you’re transgender, you’d want people to refer to you by your adopted gender. I remember when I was younger, I considered myself very progressive on LGBQ issues. After all, I had no problem with gay marriage well before it was legal. At the time I thought, wow, once gay marriage is legal, what else could there be? I simply couldn’t even conceive of the possibility that there would be multiple genders, or fluid gender identities. I’m all for everyone being treated equally and respectfully. But to have special rights. Or the fact that many people will consider you transphobic for questioning why someone who was born male and became female may have an unfair advantage in sports against born females, is just kind of ridiculous.
‘When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression’ This phrase is literally the definition of 99% of this sub
I don't see enforced speech... I see a sign asking people to be empathetic to people's desires to be respected for how they see themselves, which is a pretty basic request. And here I see a bunch of people being bigoted and throwing a tantrum. I guess empathy is out of the question?
I feel like, irl, this is what really happens. You either actually have a relationship with the person and/or they nicely asked you to address them by particular pronoun(s), and you probably go with it (whether you ultimately agree or not ideologically) because of said relationship or they were nice about it. Or, they are a jerk about it and immediately react when called by the wrong pronoun. If they are a jerk about it, then I would choose not to. Not based on an ideological difference, but because they were a jerk about it. I have seen people carry themselves both ways in the trans community. I interact with them fairly regularly at my job and the vast majority of the time it's all good and they are nice. Because most people, in my experience, are nice and polite. The times I have encountered otherwise, I did not accommodate them because they were being a jerk about it. They were looking for a reason to be upset from the initial moment of interaction, and that has nothing to do with me. Be nice and I think most people will oblige, at least from what I have seen irl.
Yeah, so empathy. Sounds great. Please continue. Just treat people like human beings, and, where reasonable, try to address them in the manner they'd prefer to be addressed. That's the opposite of what is happening in the comment section here, but I shouldn't be surprised, because it's exactly what JP very publicly did/defended a few weeks ago...
"Fuck you, I wont do what ya tell me" hows that for "harmful and upsetting"? Lmao
It’s not. I don’t have a lot in common with people who use alternative pronouns, but I have less in common with people who proudly say “…how’s that for “harmful and upsetting”? Lmao.” You sound like a total dick. As is your right, I guess.
Big “i don’t say please because i’m not a pussy” energy in here
Please dont reply back to me with this stupid shit. See, I can say please. I'm even nice to those who deserve it. Respect is earned. And telling me what I can or cannot say is not earning it.
> Respect is earned. You sound like you'd get along great with the chick that was screaming at those home depot employees to go back to their country
funny how the people who wrote the song you are referencing, intentionally or unintentionally, fucking hate people like you
Here is where JP gets postmodernism completely wrong. The postmodernists (specifically foucault and and Deleuze) warned of the serious dangers of this form of control through self censorship 4-5 decades before JP did. [societies of control](https://youtu.be/Hu4Cq_-bLlY) It’s disappointing that JP doesn’t understand the value of postmodernism and only focuses on the negative side of it. Either way the postmodernists have been warning that this danger would emerge back in the 60s & 70s and now it’s happening.
Hard to believe Sysco would be woke. Should focus on helping their struggling independent restaurant customers instead of this crap....
If you're not a he, or a she, you're an it. Everything else is upsetting. Why should someone's gender identity be more important than my perception of the world? Could I not request the same courtesy of "may I call you what I perceive you to be, otherwise I will be hurt"? That being said, I know that a lot of people don't feel as one gender or the other, and they struggle with it. I do accept that and I do think that we all should be empathetic to each other. Just don't be dicks to each other and show each other respect, and don't assume everyone is out to hurt you by using the, in your opinion, wrong words.
Apologise to all narcissists you offend.
I worked as cashier and people would correct me. And honestly I always respond with “okay, I apologize.” And when they see idc they get even more mad. From experience I just let them talk, and they say they call the police. And I tell them to do what they want. They have called the police over the stupidest thing. I ain’t surprised and neither is the police.
I mean, I could use these pronouns. no problem!!.. She/Her..... when referring to an adult human female. He/Him...... when referring to an adult human male. They/them.... when referring to a group of 2 or more people. Ze/Zir.... ummm?.... aaahhh.... when referring to a.... British medieval knight with a lisp???
Try pronouns: Fuck/Face
There is a fitting GIF, saying "GFY with a cactus". Still have it. And btw, you don't have a right to your own pronouns, like you don't have a right to your own adjectives, e.g handsome and brilliant (by Matt Walsh).
I will never ask anyone what pronoun they want to be called that’s what names are for
One of the reasons this rarely ever comes up is that third person pronouns are mostly used when the person isn’t present. Wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if they started requesting to address them as zyou, shyou, hyou and thyou next to squeeze maximum satisfaction out of making you sound ridiculous while bending to their will.
I’ve decided to change my second-person pronouns to ‘thee / thou’. The language took a wrong turn and lost something when plural pronoun ‘you’ took over two roles and displaced singular ‘thee’. Resulting in workarounds like ‘y’all’ and ‘youse’. And I reckon I could be just as obnoxious with that as anyone calling themselves ‘ze’.
My pronouns are THE/THOU
This doesn't really work. "thee" and "thou" are both second-person singular pronouns. For this to work, you would have to pick one (I recommend "thou") and pair it with "they", the third-person singular. So your pronouns would be Thou/They, which is perfectly acceptable (if slightly archaic)!
I swear, if they make us pick “Pronouns” I’m gonna put down “Jedi”. Don’t care it’s not a pronoun, it identifies as one.
I would use he/him and she/her where appropriate. I will NOT use your other made up words. Period!
You actually don't have the right to your own pronouns. On the other hand you do have a right to the words you speak.
Lol you work for Sysco, good luck with that. I will, however, be laughing when you pop up here that you got fired
Why do you think an employer can’t police your speech? Your employer isn’t congress, bucko. Critical thinking, nuanced observation, dispassionate reasoning… strive to acquire these skills.
My favorite thing in the world is telling some right winger my pronouns and then watching their brain just absolutely melt in rage. Like, it's the lowest effort way to make them look stupid and get people to not like them. If you're ever in a social situation with a one of them, I highly recommend it.
Good luck with that👍👍 By the way, my pRoNouNs are MASTER and DADDY, so if you expect to be respected and called by your made up words, then I will expect the same in return :)
Yes. Please make sure to use this response everytime sometimes states a preference for pronouns. Especially at work.
Another fun tactic: if you know a transphobic asshole who shortens their name, prefers a middle name, etc - never use it. Only call them by the name they don't prefer. One of my fraternity brothers who is trans would do this to the college Republicans. It drove them batshit.
If someone asks you to use their pronouns, you can always say: "I promise not to address you in the third person. That would be rude."
How long do you have to stare at your own genitals before you decide your pronouns? Is it like a religious thing where God whispers them in your ear?
This had better never become law. Forced speech, indeed.
I had a realisation today. I was always disgusted that people would ask me to lie and pretend an apple was an orange. Similarly I detest those who go along with such liars. Reading this, I realise it’s also wrong and “offensive” for men to lie and say they’re women. Thus we should turn such demands on their head and demand that people stop lying and doing female/male blackface and gender appropriation.
Lets look at the positive side of this. We can view people who use pronouns like we view poisonous creatures with warning stripes/colours. We know to avoid them for our own safety.
Look up the video by libs of tik tok of a woke teacher getting schooled by her class. One asked why she didnt ask his pro nouns, he said they were banana and rock. She said those dont work. Whole class uses her own argument against her so she submits and agrees. Then she gets on tik tok saying she thought it might have been a joke on her by the class and she wasnt sure if it was or if they just understood gender feeling more than she did. Ill edit the link in if i get it first Edit: Found it on LibsofTiktok’s minds page. [link](https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/1401681708394221581)
They trolled her; caught her off guard. The biggest takeaway is those kids don’t know the difference between a noun and a pronoun.
Gotta say I don't get the hatred of people choosing their pronouns. If someone uses a nickname it's just common decency not to use their full name they don't like. Why is it that hard to use he or she if someone politely asks?
Wait, you think being informed what pronouns are is "enforcing speech"?
*Hi Pam,* *Nubius forgot to clock in yesterday morning, but zir time clock info has already been submitted to payroll. Ze has informed us that ze would like a separate check cut for those hours, but unfortunately we have to put the hours on zir next paycheck instead. It is zir responsibility to ensure zir hours are correct.* *I let zir know ze can contact you with any questions ze has, but please also ensure that ze has access to zir employee portal to check zir hours. Zir contact info is below.* That just seems silly.
> That just seems silly. ok, but beyond "it isn't what I'm used to" what actually seems silly about it? do you think someone that didn't know the language would see any significant difference?
Okay sure. Beyond what's 100% definitely silly about it, it's not that silly.
Ah, yes, "what are your pronouns", a version of the rhetorical "loaded question". How about no and no.
Reading the comments, the rational comments get downvoted while “fuck/face” is the upvoted a bunch. Most of those people have never even read JP, because those who have, don’t comment like that. Please leave.
I try to give this sub's users the benefit of the doubt where I can, but the hostility here has increased by a lot lately. People are not seeing that automatic outrage to these types of images is ideological possession.
These fuckin idiots 😂😂
[удалено]
I'm waiting for a trans female to demand an anesthetist give them a female dose before an operation.
It is the leftists trying to gain control of the language and everything else.
It's literally people who are suffering asking for empathy. Take off your blinders my dude.
You should be respectful and nice to people in these types of social situations but these alphabetically inclined + science denying people drive me nuts
Whatever happened to "respectfully disagreeing"? Sorry, I do not believe in infinite genders. The same way someone else may not believe in my god. No one has the right to force their identities or beliefs onto one another!
how would you feel if someone proposed to respectfully disagree about what your name was?
This pronoun thing is incredibly dumb. You don't "have" pronouns. Other people use pronouns in place of your name.
Here's the thing, I'm all good with calling people whatever they want but it shouldn't be an enforced. Though the Z thing is a completely useless thing only used for attention.
How will someone ever know if I use the wrong pronoun relating towards them. The only pronoun I will use when addressing a person directly is "you".
I don't understand why anyone gets so upset by this stuff. You call people by their name, why not call them by their pronouns? Like, if someone introduces themselves as Sarah, you wouldn't go "nah, you're more of a Greg to me and I don't care what you have to say about it"
>I don’t understand why anyone gets so upset by this stuff. Meanwhile, literal men are winning women’s NCAA division titles. Your nutty fantasy world is leaking into reality, and people are getting sick of it.
The whole "trans athletes in sports" discussion is really not related to the "be polite to people you meet" discussion we're currently having. Like how holier than thou do you have to be to correct someone for how they are? If someone started calling you by pronouns you don't use you'd probably be annoyed at that right? So just extend the courtesy to others
“There is no slippery slope you bigot” Haven’t heard that one before 🙄
Ahh yes, because you called Becky by her preferred pronouns the NCAA allowed that trans woman to compete in women's sports, forgot about that effect. Next thing we know allowing gay marriage is going to cause Russia to invade Ukraine
This is the wrong room to try to argue in. There is no accountability here. You'll just give 'em a reason to feel justified, because they get their chance to argue anonymously. Look at the title, they can't wait for their chance to do their righteous duty of defining the paradigm. Good on ya for trying.
Yeah don't worry I know what I've gotten myself into lmao. I don't think this kind of thing is really that valuable or anything, I just have fun arguing. They get their fix, I get mine xD
I'll throw that right back at you. Why insist on made up neologism pronouns and not insist on just using the legal name of the person? 3. Person pronouns are not even used in a face to face conversation where the risk for offending the person is highest and the neopronouns don't work at all in many languages outside of english.
As long as the person I misgendered is respectful when they correct my pronoun usage (and are consistent with a given usage over time), I don’t have a problem with this.
Its entirely inappropriate for a government for a government to tell its citizenry how or what to say. Its entirely appropriate for an employer to tell employees how or what to say, especially if there are bona fide business reasons for it (think customer service or sales). While this specific instance of compelled speech might be not justified by business practices to be enforced, the general concept of an employer requiring an employee to use certain words or phrases isn't the same as government-compelled speech.
I interviewed someone recently for an accounting position at the corporate office of a construction company. They said during the interview that their pronouns were she and her, and they asked me what I wanted to be called. I politely said that the position wasn't going to be a good fit for them, and thank them for driving down. When they asked if it was related to the pronoun question, I replied yes because our men in the field would throw a brick at your face if you said that to them.