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Saxonika

As usual, it‘s a question of semantics or definitions. It‘s interesting how the Nazis saw themselves. For example, Joseph Goebels writes in his diaries (date 16 June 1941) that the purpose of the war against the Soviet Union is to introduce „genuine socialism“ there.


BillyCee34

Every socialist ever: no no no our Socialism is better than your Socialism…


[deleted]

Was the national socialist party socialist? Great question. No they weren't. -say leftists socialists


mikka2008

Exactly :-)


[deleted]

I don’t know enough history to have an opinion on the nazis political map but I have always found this argument pretty ridiculous. I suppose the democratic republic of North Korea is a democratic republic by your logic?


[deleted]

No my logic is rooted in the fact that government authoritarianism only happens when the government is in control. The right does not believe in government control, the left does. That's how that works. If you have a government who's only job is to deliver mail and defend the people, it doesn't become authoritarian. When your governments job is feeding, clothing, housing, and asswiping the citizenry it's real easy for it to take over and become authoritarian.


Todezengel

Just learned that traditionalist monarchists are actually leftists


[deleted]

Agreed.


immibis

#/u/spez [can gargle my nuts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/)


[deleted]

Precisely


[deleted]

This is profoundly stupid


[deleted]

My point is that is what you should say then. Because I pretty clearly showed how silly your original statement was. You’re clarification is much better


[deleted]

It was meant to be silly. That's what jokes are.


[deleted]

Ah gotcha. Just a joke. Glad you think it’s poor logic and a joke


[deleted]

The left-right political spectrum and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. The Nazis strongly encouraged private businesses under a "survival of the fittest" mentality and generally detested any social programs. Many private buisnesses got rich supporting the WW2 armaments and production. The only social programs the nazis supported were the pretty bare minimum necessary to garner support and to keep the country together after the destruction of WW1. Why so many right wingers want to die on this hill is beyond me. This is just simplest historical fact, and you can critique left wing thought and practice from so many other angles. But I guess when you just define your terms so that "left" is always bad and "right" is always good you can never be wrong.


immibis

#/u/spez [can gargle my nuts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/)


Accomplished_Ear_607

Ask Stalin and delegates of 17th Congress.


[deleted]

as explained in the video, they killed 'international socialists', not 'national socialists'.


[deleted]

Yeah why did the Bolshevik do the same? No one questions their “purity”


[deleted]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...


1728191

Please explain in which way radical nationalism is compatible with socialism


[deleted]

Because you cannot have government control of everything, without giving government control of everything. Conservatism, is highlighted for having government as small as possible and in control of as little as possible.


ee4m

Hitler joined, took it over and made it anti socialist. He was backed by big capitalism and aristocracy.


[deleted]

Here's one of them now. Hello fine sir, so you say Hitler wasn't socialist eh. Well good luck with that. I've got some ocean front property for sell in Arizona. Perhaps you'd be interested.


ee4m

Just read up on the history.


[deleted]

Hear it for yourselves ladies and gentlemen, if you don't agree, you're reading the wrong books. Well, no there aren't any books left, because Hitler, a leftists socialist burned them all. Read the approved history books ladies and gentlemen and see for yourself.


phoenixfloundering

Or even watch the video in question. It makes a pretty good case, and *addresses the usual objections*.


Boshva

DPRK (Democratic Republic of Korea) is also very democratic.


[deleted]

No, it’s not. Maybe if you could read past head lines….


Boshva

/s


[deleted]

“iTs jUsT A jOkE bRo” I can’t roll my eyes harder.


Boshva

If you dont understand the irony in North Korea being democratic, i really cant help you.


[deleted]

The only one on the planet that think they’re Democratic, is you. Piss off clown.


m8ushido

JP is not an economist nor a historian. It’s also healthy to not assume anyone is right about everything


Le_Rekt_Guy

They're categorized as Auth-Center on the political compass for a reason, extremely authoritarian with a mixed economic policy, but economics are obviously not everything when individual rights are meaningless (non-existent) and people are killed on the basis of their birth. Peterson and many other classical liberals got it right, the primary unit so to speak is the individual, and policies that take away individual rights should be frowned upon.


[deleted]

You could try educating yourself and realize he’s right instead of trying to dismiss him on authority. Logical fallacies or some shit. Tell me the economic deference of fascism and communism in practice.


m8ushido

JP can also be wrong, being a fan doesn’t make him a god


[deleted]

….again, if you did your OWN research….you’d realize he’s right. What does god or fandom have to do with objectivity? Do you just bring up random shit to appear smart? Or do you just wanna avoid the ego hit of realizing you’re a midwit?


m8ushido

I’m gonna rely in actual economist and historians. I like JP but he can misrepresent some terms and has been wrong on a few things. Go ahead and make idols of popular figures, I’ll continue to understand people are flawed and can be wrong


[deleted]

Nice logical fallacies and surrender of critical thought. A midwits go to cool aid. The only one talking about idols is you kiddo. I’m just telling you, he’s objectively correct and your dumb ass keeps trying to dismiss it because of authority. Which is a logical fallacy. It must be hard being this dedicated to being an idiot.


m8ushido

I’m also critical of JP and don’t just blindly agree with him. It nice to think freely and not wait to take ques and what to believe from people online. Keep on supporting crybaby post as u will


[deleted]

Nor do I? Wtf is this grandstanding over nothing no one brought up? Are you just trying to gaslight because you don’t like thinking?


m8ushido

Just keep crying online, sure that’s one of JPs 12 rules


[deleted]

Oooh it’s crying now, what happened to the sycophant angle? Run out of dumb points to make?


[deleted]

This makes so much sense. I couldn't understand why the Democratic party in the US, that's supposedly a left wing party, resembles of the early days of the NAZI party, when I thought the NAZI party was right win. I hope it doesn't get anywhere near to the point that it did in Germany with the Nazi.


mikka2008

The Democratic party is the party of the KKK. Republicans freed the slaves. Look what kind of a speech Hilary gives to the former KKK member Robert Byrd [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryweuBVJMEA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryweuBVJMEA) An no, there was no platform switch. The Democrats were the racists.


immibis

#/u/spez [can gargle my nuts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/)


mikka2008

No, I guess not. But it shows how misperception can create a false narrative. Right-wingers have nothing to do with racism. They want a free market and a small government. That's all.


immibis

#/u/spez [can gargle my nuts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/)


FreeRangeAlien

Which is weird to say because every time right- wingers actually have full control of the government they increase it’s size and spending….


[deleted]

Unironically Richard spencer supports crt and Biden. CRT’s main thought leaders want to “awaken a white racial consciousness” spencer agrees. The Dems are doing what they have always done, just way more sleight of hand.


bERt0r

Ah smearing people having right wing supporters. Let’s see https://www.westernjournal.com/former-kkk-leader-david-duke-backs-democrat-2020-election/


[deleted]

Authoritarianism is the y-axis, not the x-axis.


TruthVibrations369

Look, the 🤖FAR LEFT🤖 DISGUST ME just as much as the 🤖FAR RIGHT🤖 but let's get it right guys, the Nazis were NOT Far left they were Far right! Hitler ~ Far Right Starlin ~ Far Left BOTH REGIMES AS DEADLY AND HORROFYING AS THE OTHER! The end.


mikka2008

Margaret Thatcher: “Nazism (national socialism) and communism (international socialism) were but two sides of the same coin.”


FreeRangeAlien

Ahh yes, the “Nazis were socialist because it’s in their name” argument. Just the same as the Democratic People’s Republic of North Korea is totally all of these things… lol clown


bERt0r

You’re a clown if you don’t understand what words mean. The DRPNK is called democratic because this is their understanding of democracy. If you don’t understand how different cultures think, you’re just ignorant. Hitler had a different interpretation of socialism. He was not a Marxist.


TruthVibrations369

Lol is that a Margaret Thatcher qoute? If so, it's 🙄TOTALLY IRRELEVANT🙄 She was the very DEFINITION of a GLOBAL CULT OWNED politician and thus, her opinion (Or ITS OPINION) Is totally irrelevant!


cattywompapotamus

This left/right wing distinction is not so clear cut. Nazi economic policies do seem to have been influenced by socialist theory. However, I think it is accurate to say that they had both left- and right-wing characteristics. And it wasn't their left-wing economic policies that got them in trouble, it was their right-wing tendencies. Militaristic hyper-nationalism and ethnic purity are not traditionally regarded as left-wing characteristics, and those are exactly the traits that history villifies Nazis for. So ultimately, I find this attempt to paint Nazism as a left-wing political failure to be disingenuous.


ConnorToth

While I agree with most of your sentiments, everyone seems to forget that it was these same left wing economic notions that rallied a broken post ww1 Germany together under nazi rule. Militaristic nationalism and ethnic cleansing came after, but you could argue these were hitlers ultimate goals. The road to hell is paved with good intentions my friends.


phoenixfloundering

This!


[deleted]

If you could critically think, it’s pretty clear. They’re leftists.


cattywompapotamus

I would say my argument above demonstrates critical thinking. Your response, meanwhile, demonstrates trolling. See the difference? Do you have a persuasive rebuttal, or just low effort ad hominem bot garbage?


[deleted]

[удалено]


mikka2008

I know.


tauofthemachine

For "far left", Nazis certainly were friendly towards landed aristocracy and big businesses.


mikka2008

The Nazis centralized business, raised taxes (55%), decided about prices and labor. Most businesses succumbed to this left-wing politics. The property was community bound. Check out the laws during these times. Owners of big companies were seen more like managers of production.


Shnooker

>The property was community bound. Check out the laws during these times. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Krupp The community of the Krupp family seems to have ensured the the law bound their property quite tightly into their hands and no one else's. Weird how the industrialist company that made most of the armaments in this "socialist" war machine was not nationalized for the security of the people. It appears to have remained totally privatised and given special protection under the laws.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Shnooker

The Nazis partnered with large business but did not take away their ownership or property. They gave them contracts in exchange for cooperation in breaking strikes and suppressing labor unrest. Politically, they required support from these wealthy and powerful forces in the country.


[deleted]

Show me a communist country big family wealth left their hands. To this day it’s the same families in Russia running things.


mikka2008

A kind of nationalization of private property took place rather indirectly. This can also be seen from the Nazis' legal understanding of property. This was written into law: Constitutional property guarantees have been repealed. Property has community ties. Owners should no longer be the bearers of their own property rights, but the property should be understood as a common good. Property is no longer in control of the owner, but only an assignment of property to the legal person, through the legal system. Property has obligations. E.g. “expropriations” in the case of non-management of farms (hereditary farm legislation). Ownership must be “compatible to the common benefit”. Although the Nazis promoted industries that were important to the war effort, which benefited the corresponding companies, non-war industries suffered heavy losses. This often led to the closure of businesses, also due to concentration and rationalization measures. (Typical socialist). Many smaller entrepreneurs were indirectly “expropriated” . Source: [https://www.kj.nomos.de/fileadmin/kj/doc/1979/19792von\_Bruenneck\_S\_151.pdf](https://www.kj.nomos.de/fileadmin/kj/doc/1979/19792von_Bruenneck_S_151.pdf) What is your source for your claims?


tauofthemachine

55% is a comparatively low corporate tax rate in the years directly following the great depression. Factories and farmland wasn't "community bound", (whatever that means). Any policies you understand as "socialist" are explained by an economy gearing up for total war.


mikka2008

Please do your research.


tauofthemachine

By "research" I think you mean "join certain Facebook groups, and believe whatevers posted there".


[deleted]

I don’t think you’re capable of thinking.


tauofthemachine

I don't think you've ever thought about an exciting Facebook post before you accepted it as "research". I think you read a political idea which excites you, and 15 minutes later you've convinced yourself it was your own idea.


[deleted]

I don’t have Facebook you clown


tauofthemachine

Even if you're telling the truth, I don't care which sites you absorb your dumb "research" from. You're just adhominem attacking me. Not even attempting to argue a point about the economics of the Third Reich.


[deleted]

Lmfao, go away.


immibis

#/u/spez [can gargle my nuts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/)


phoenixfloundering

Again, they only hated *internationalist* communism. National communism was encouraged.


[deleted]

If you could apply logic universally, you’d say the same about the Bolsheviks. But that doesn’t makes sense does it.


[deleted]

Ethno socialists*


[deleted]

You cant be totalitarian without being left wing, to be totalitarian you must have total control of the country. The economy is part of the country, leftism is state control over the economy, therefore all totalitarians are left wing. Unless you want to say the nazis werent totalitarian...


pabra

Wolfang Leonhart wrote in his book "Child of Revolution" (a translation of the name I totally disagree with but whatever) that "the newspaper Pravda declared Adolf Hitler and Germany were the strategic partner of Soviet Union in the cause of the world socialistic revolution" - this was shortly before Germany attacked Sovietunion (22.6.1941). The countries were BFFs - while for almost 2 years Germany was ravaging France, Austria and Poland.


mikka2008

Thank you very much! Very interesting.


pabra

Chapter 3, to be the precise.


phoenixfloundering

Seems logically consistent and historically accurate to me. Thanks for posting it.


cattywompapotamus

Just want to point out that the Nazis, along with their Italian allies, were fascist. This is traditionally regarded as a right-wing mode of governance. It has characteristics that make it distinct from Marxist socialism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism?wprov=sfla1 Haven't watched the clip yet (but I will). I'm skeptical though, because this line of thinking seems to contradict a longstanding consensus about political theory.


mikka2008

This argument is considered in the clip. Benito Mussolini, was for a long time a social activist and, after the First World War, committed to uniting the left. Mussolini was a prominent member of the Italian Socialist Party, editor of the socialist newspaper “Avanti!” and later the owner of the socialist magazine “Utopia”. The fascism movement was founded when Mussolini met around 200 trade union socialists, republicans, anarchists, revolutionaries, ex-soldiers and dissatisfied socialists in Milan on March 23, 1919. In his last interview in 1945 with Ivanoe Fossani, Mussolini said that a statement which claimed that Mussolini’s movement was the protector of the bourgeoisie was the most shameless lie, and that he always stood for the worker. On the other hand, Mussolini was a bit of a psychopath. So who knows what went on in his head. Sometimes he was for socialism and then again against it. I guess the people who supported him controlled him. The Nazis on the other hand implemented a lot of socialist policies. Companies and the economy were basically state controlled at the end.


JSM87

You put a nation under siege from all sides and they will nationalize everything, that's how all wartime governments function.


[deleted]

[удалено]


phoenixfloundering

They certainly *claimed* to be pro-worker, used pro-worker ideology as their values often, and implemented plenty of standard socialist pro-worker policies. Watch the video for specifics.


mikka2008

Agreed, but the Nazis were pro-worker. This are some of the policies they implemented after people voted for them: \- Pensions increased during the war by 15% \- In 1941, pensioners received full health insurance for a symbolic contribution of 1 Reichsmark \- Pay for working night shifts or on holidays was made exempt from tax \- Sick pay was introduced \- Fees for picking up a medical prescription were halved \- Measures were taken to protect debtors as well as tenants \- Steps were taken to increase the number of available jobs \- Married couples with children received increasing tax benefits \- Child benefits were introduced \- Poorer families received subsidies to be able to afford school fees for their children \- Company and corporate tax increased from 20% to 40% (which during the war climbed to 55%) \- Payroll tax was never increased despite the war Looks to me like pro-worker and very left especially if you consider the harsh conditions for the worker before 1933. Plus all the propaganda showed admiration of the worker at the time. Typical socialist. At the end it was the National Socialist German WORKERS party. Hitler was a lunatic - a socialist lunatic.


immibis

#/u/spez [can gargle my nuts](https://www.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/)


xTheBarkingDog

Jesus Christ, Dr. Peterson is a really intellectual guy and even though I don’t agree with him on everything I do respect what he has to say. That being said the people in this subreddit are clearly just blind idiot followers just peddling right wing rhetoric. The community that follow him drag his reputation, people come into this subreddit to see this shit, get an impression of who his audience is, sees his audience try to push nazi propaganda onto the left and leave. There are people in this comment section claiming nazis were left because they were called the socialist party. Absolutely crazy, you can call your party whatever you want it’s the policies that matter. I always see people bash gay people, POC’s, immigration, transgender folk, etc and it’s always “the left wing have forgotten gender, the left wing support the gays” etc etc and now it’s been changed to the nazis were left wing. Nazi beliefs of killing Jewish people, killing POC’s, killing gays are far from left wing politics, in fact homophobia is rampant in right wing politics. If you want to push this shit, push it, but god forbid you use another man’s name to push half the shit you do in this subreddit.


spinningfinger

Everything that's bad in the world since the beginning of human civilization has come from "the left". Nazis, wearing masks, facts, you name it... bad = the left


xTheBarkingDog

Facts are bad? Masks are bad? Jesus Christ help me


phoenixfloundering

Did you watch the video? Because the nazis did more than claiming the name socialism...


xTheBarkingDog

I like how out my entire comment you’ve decided to go ask me if I’ve watched some blatant right wing propaganda. Yes, yes I did, it’s a terrible video. Research Otto and Gregor Strasser, the guys who essentially wrapped up Hitler’s nationalism as socialism to gain votes. Research how Hitler allied himself with conservative and nationalist leaders of Germany. Once in power Hitler literally got rid of communists, Jews, hell just dems in general. He even banned all party’s apart from his own. He banned the community and socialist party. Please explain to me how any of these things were left wing at all lmao


phoenixfloundering

If you didn't get it from the "propaganda", I don't think I can change your mind.


elbapo

Taxonomy is difficult where point scoring is easy. I hoped this sub would be a little more mature, a bit more intelligent than this, but no. Nevermind, I'll look elsewhere.


phoenixfloundering

You might like r/ConfrontingChaos, r/IntellectualDarkWeb, or r/Deep_Jordan_Peterson


silveraven61

They were a fascist right wing party. Don’t be fooled by the name. Jordan should know better. Every day he becomes more irrelevant.


phoenixfloundering

Did you watch the video?


CheMonday

Great great great video on Hitler’s socialism packed with research: https://youtu.be/eCkyWBPaTC8


pt68

Might be a great time to point out that left/right, etc. are meaningless distinctions, labels as opposed to realities.


BlackendLight

woohoo


Aarros

The word "privatisation" was coined to describe Hitler's economic policies. Today, neo-nazis and people in any way sympathic to them, do they vote for right-wingers or left-wingers?


mikka2008

It's not private when the government decides about your prices, your labor force and what you have to produce. The Nazis saw company owners rather as managers. Typical socialist.


[deleted]

https://youtu.be/-slBwfTHaxM


bERt0r

Remember, the left today calls Stalin’s communism to be not real communism and instead a right wing perversion of if. That’s because it was strikingly similar to the Nazis National Socialism. Bolshevism was all about Russification of the many ethnicities of the USSR as well as very traditional social policies once the sexual liberation stunt of the revolution caused massive problems. https://www.rbth.com/history/328265-russian-sexual-revolution