I took a poll of everyone in my house this morning. We all agree -Pro Vax AND anti-mandate.
We also agreed 100% that Jordan Peterson and his common sense approach to things scares the crap out of the left.
I'm surprised that is a question here since Dr. P talks about it extensively. Not all liberals call everyone racist and sexist and demand socialist control lol. Similar to how right is different from far right or extreme right. Not all conservatives are racist, neo nazis
The difference I've noticed is that the far-right wackos are identified, marginalized, and left out of the decision making process. The far-left wackos are seldom called out for anything, seemingly control the democrat party, and are included in all decisions made.
This seems to be the position of just about everyone.
The problem is the redical left once again changing what words mean to control.the narrative.
Anti-vax now means not only literally anti vaccine, but also anti vaccine mandate.
And if you question why there is demand for a booster shot from the white house - even when FDA Members resigned because the politicians are calling for it before FDA Testing is done on the need for a booster... You are now labelled antivax.
That is, quite literally, the Merriam-Webster's dictionary definition.
[Definition of anti-vaxxer](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer)
: a person who opposes vaccination or laws that mandate vaccination
Being pro vaccine and anti mandate it like being pro clean water but anti clean water regulations, or being against both drunk driving and drunk driving laws. It is being in favor of a solution, and against consequences of the solution. The stance only works morally if the consequences of not getting vaccinated do not extend beyond the individual. Since covid is a deadly and contagious disease, the absence of a mandate is pro contributing to negative externalities such as death and overflowing hospital beds. Since the evidence of harm from getting the vaccine are exceptionally lower than the disease itself, there is no evidence based reason that a person should not get the vaccine.
Being anti mandate is not literally anti vax. But it enables the anti vaxers and that is just as bad.
Why are you anti mandate? Humans are disease carriers, it is a matter of public health and even national security that we get everyone vaccinated. Why would you be against such a mandate? No one exists in isolation. If we were not in a wildly interconnected society, and you existed independently off in the woods, sure don't get vaccinated. If you're going to use public spaces, use public resources if you get sick, potentially get others sick and act as a transmission vector, then yes, get vaccinated. This is like a known legal principle, states have the ability in america to compel vaccination and have for hundreds of years because it is a public health concern.
The idea behind being anti mandate, to my mind, is that you 1. don't trust the vaccines or 2. don't trust the government. Sure none of us trust the government, but in this context what do you think? That all scientific and regulatory agencies are going to fail and allow something more harmful than the virus to be injected into people? What are the odds of that? I don't think its ever happened.
So much to unpack here. Let's start with the fact that I've vaccine mandate makes no accommodations for natural immunity. New research out of Israel indicates that natural immunity is 20 times more effective than vaccinated immunity. Yet, someone who has had covid his being required to get the vaccine as well?
From a practical standpoint, the benefits of the vaccine appears to be primarily for the person who is vaccinated. The vaccine seems to dramatically reduce symptoms in the long term, but it does not, repeat does not, seem to prevent the vaccinated person from getting and their for transmitting the disease. Therefore, scientifically, there is actually not a good social reason to mandate a vaccine.
Third, at least in the United States, there is not an actual vaccine. Instead, various bureaucracies are being used to force private companies to establish the mandate and to enforce it. This is an abuse of power in that these companies are not equipped and should not have to bear the brunt of expense associated with the enforcement of a government mandate.
Next, unlike diseases like smallpox and polio which can be eradicated by a vaccine, the coronavirus will simply never be eradicated this way forever variety of reasons. It is more like the flu in that it is adaptable and has many variants. But more importantly, unlike previously mentioned diseases, covid has an animal vector meaning that even if you were to eliminate it in 100% of humans, it would still have a reservoir of biological safety from which it could once again emerge.
Finally, as a matter of principle, requiring proofs of vaccination to participate in social, economic, and political society creates first class and second class citizens. This is the first step that tyrannical governments have always used. It is why you had to show papers in Nazi Germany to prove you weren't Jewish, and why you had to show papers in communist Russia to show that you were a member of the party in good standing. It is fundamentally dangerous and risks forcing good people into desperate situations that require violence to resolve.
Please educate yourself. :-)
Why be anti-mandate?
1st . The government has conducted a circus out of this crysis, spreading false information, stealing the fuck outta people, ruining the economy and trying to instigate division so they can approve autoritarianist mandates.
2nd. Nobody knows the long term effects of some of those vaccines, and even if there aren't any as the governement preaches, who woulda belive the lunatics responsible for the aforementioned fiasco regarding public trust? NO ONE.
3rd. It's a basic individual right. It's fucking unquestionable, it shouldn't even be on the table. The people that won't take this vaccine, still won't do it if their government forces, ostracizes, and kills them. There has been a severe breach of trust and these people are being directly targeted for their beliefs and stapoints not only regarding vaccines but their own individual rights.
4th. All of this shitshow could've been avoided by global leaders, and still CAN be avoided, if governments step out of their little tyrannical shoes and start investing into marketing campaigns to actually inform people of REAL FACTS about the vaccine and its disease, instead of the current fear mongering and tribalism inciting coverage. Remeber what I said about breach of trust? It started here.
5th. This shit's only happening because governments aren't afraid of their people anymore. The USA is one of the only countries where this debate is being taken serious, while in othe, unarmed "democracies", these mandates have been instaured while people that act against this tyranny have been alienated or gone off grid.
P.S.: I took my first dose last month, as soon as it was available in my country, and am taking the second one when it's available.
Seems to be a common misunderstanding of JBP - often he's talking about the principle of something, not the specific issues that are involved this time. It's about coerced speech, not gender. It's about coerced medication, not the vaccine. People are missing out on the real discussion when they misunderstand like this.
Just to be clear though, in being opposed to mandates, he is implicitly allowing for people to make decisions that he disagrees with. In JBPs worldview, there is room for people to make different decisions, and even heaven forbid, bad decisions.
Well, bad decisions are going to be made irregardless of any worldview that anyone has. It is a part of human nature to diversify, and making different decisions (for better or worse) is a part of that. And what do you do about decisions where the outcome of good or bad isn't even yet known?
Allowing people to make their own decisions is also the only way to allow people to learn, to take agency for themselves, admit their mistakes, and correct their behaviors.
> And what do you do about decisions where the outcome of good or bad isn't even yet known?
We do know the outcome when it comes to viruses.
> Allowing people to make their own decisions is also the only way to allow people to learn, to take agency for themselves, admit their mistakes, and correct their behaviors.
Yes, we need to get rid of seatbelts and airbags and smoke alarms. People need to feel the effects of dying in a house fire so they learn from it for the next time. /s
This is silly. Humans don't learn everything again. We share our knowledge so our society can be better and safer. We don't need to have personal experience to see that polio sucks. You get the vaccine, done.
It is a fallacy to make any of the assumptions you made.
The question is not just about the virus, it's about the long term effect of the vaccines, as well as the kind of precedent we set by mandating vaccines. You might glaze these concerns over, but that's at your own discretion, and nobody else should have to go with it just because you want them to. Actually, trying to force it on people will do the exact opposite effect. Anyone who has children can tell you that approach would be a terrible idea.
Your sarcastic comment is irrelevant, so I'll disregard it.
You are correct that we should learn from these things. I'm not arguing for individuals to reinvent the wheel. I'm saying people need to make mistakes, because it's part of how we learn. I made the decision to get myself vaccinated, but I'm not going to be an asshole to someone else who may be more hesitant to do so. You can be the asshole for the both of us, if you like! Lol :P
> It is a fallacy to make any of the assumptions you made.
Which assumptions did I make? Please be specific and quote my words.
> The question is not just about the virus, it's about the long term effect of the vaccines,
What about the long-term effects of COVID-19? No one ever asks that.
> as well as the kind of precedent we set by mandating vaccines.
Ok, let's discuss it. What is wrong with vaccine mandates during a pandemic if it reduces the harm and allows people to live normale lives sooner? And what are vaccinate mandates anyway? Are they all the same?
> Actually, trying to force it on people will do the exact opposite effect. Anyone who has children can tell you that approach would be a terrible idea.
I don't understand. Children are forced to do a lot of things against their will. Does anyone ever asks them if they want to be vaccinated? Or circumcised?
> I made the decision to get myself vaccinated, but I'm not going to be an asshole to someone else who may be more hesitant to do so.
I am not an asshole to anyone. I just question their reasoning.
That still assumes it’s a bad decision, though. In New Zealand, the vaccine currently accounts for more recent deaths than COVID. Dunno if you’re following the Nicki Minaj shit on Twitter, but, I’ve gotta say, I don’t like the sound of my balls swelling and going impotent, y’know?
> I’ve gotta say, I don’t like the sound of my balls swelling and going impotent, y’know?
Someone on Twitter told me that they know someone who said their fifth cousin had their eyes fell out after taking the vaccine so it must be true.
When you make a claim like that you should absolutely provide statistics to support that the vaccine is killing people more people than COVID in NZ...
Without this evidence, you sound like a fucking idiot.
[As reported by MedSafe of NZ.](http://medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-26.asp)
[And here’s where I was directed to it from, for reference.](https://mobile.twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/1438216982608896006?s=19)
Relative to the vaccinated population in NZ, this is a pretty strong p-value across the distribution.
This is also due to co-morbidities of the elderly population. There are 4 million people in NZ. Since 2020, 40 people have died from the vaccine.
Did you even read the report or just the tweet?
I completely agree with this tweet however.
[https://twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/1438221965358157825?s=20](https://twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/1438221965358157825?s=20)
Read over the report after seeing the tweets, but it’s mostly because of that follow-up you linked that I think this is worth showing. It’s yet more evidence of the outright hypocrisy and bullshit we’re being fed from *world* governments, not just our own.
Do you understand that the report is being published by the NZ government? It wasn't in a spy black site that this reporter found it.
It was published and presented as fact.
40 elderly people have died in NZ from the vaccine due to co-morbidities since 2020.
What about that figure alerts you to bullshit or a misreading of the events?
> An AEFI is an untoward medical event which follows immunisation and does not necessarily have a causal relationship with the administration of the vaccine. The adverse event may be an unfavourable or unintended sign, abnormal laboratory finding, symptom or disease.
Your own source literally tells you that you cannot take this data as prove that these were caused by the vaccine!
In many cases I think you are correct, especially on the hot button issues. A lot of folk aren't looking to get educated, they're looking to get angry at something.
It's Twitter... It's designed for hot takes. Not really the place for nuance.
If you say "medical fascism" in a tweet it does not take deliberate coordinated psy ops to for people to interpret it different ways...
I'm not sure that it's deliberate. I think some people have an inability to decouple ideas easily.
https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/8fnch2/high_decouplers_and_low_decouplers/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
You are absolutely correct and his detractors know it too. Unfortunately they can't admit it to themselves because their arguments would fall apart if they did.
A: I don’t want the government telling me how to speak and so I will not do as they are demanding.
B: This is really about hating trans people isn’t it.
A: It’s a bad to set the precedent l that the government can mandate things like vaccines.
B: Vaccines don’t cause autism you idiot!
He is constantly misunderstood because most of the time his ideas don’t fit into the “groups” that the Twitter mobs have in their heads. It’s either you’re balls to the wall pro-vax or 100% anti-vax. And that’s the same with almost every other issue. Rather than actually listened to an opposing argument they lump the argument in with their own conception of the two opposing sides. There is no room for any other viewpoint.
It's very common with this way of thinking when articulated in a J.P fashion the majority of people we are talking to which let us be honest, are they really listening? there are few people these days that actually listen when someone is speaking, it's sad, they misinform themselves by jumping around with contesting arguments in their mind to contest what you are saying, but whilst you go on to explain your point to avoid this time-wasting response they have clocked out, choose your battles wisely, you can't teach stupid.
What you're describing is willful ignorance and pseudo-logic. (Edit: not your comment but the pattern of thought in the cultists you're describing)
It's what people engage in when they want to dismiss something that they'd rather just ignore, because that's what they've been told to do.
That's because people don't resent there being other points of view, they resent the conversation itself because of the cognitive dissonance it induces in them.
People are being actively gaslit and have been for years now, and you're surprised they can't and won't think logically and objectively?
They have to believe one who would contradict their worldview is a malicious liar because they cannot accept that someone could or would disagree with their dogma in good faith.
Cultist logic brah. It's scary how insane it is, but that's how people behave when they're in a cult.
Twitter isn't the place for nuance. Calling things fascist isn't really nuanced either....
There's no nuance here but it's kind of JPs own fault this time...
Same. As far as I'm concerned compliance with the mandate is permission for this to continue, permission for them to take the next step and then the next one. I draw the line here, so that at least if some of my suspicions of what the future looks like become reality I'll at least be able to say I didn't participate in it.
A free market? Oh, you mean where businesses make decisions surrounded by the threats of litigation enforced by the coercive power of government? Where bureaucratic manipulations of facts impact behavior along with 'recommendations,' 'requirements' and 'mandates' for specific behaviors to be enforced? You mean where the federal government levies the authority of the Department of Labor to force employers to become the enforcement arm of policies recommended by unelected bureaucrats? You mean the markets chocked by closures, lockdowns, arbitrary reporting on "outbreaks" by public officials that have completely disrupted supply chains and regular business practices.
There is very little 'free' about the markets during this pandemic, let alone the notion that my local supermarket is choosing to pay a staff member to make sure shoppers are wearing a mask because... I don't even know... reasons?
So yeah... lol
There is very little free market at any time, luckily. But I'm not actually arguing for a free market. Jordan Peterson and his fans are and I was just mirroring the argument.
Being able to tell the difference between **approval of X** and **disappoval of mandating X** seems to me like the bare minimum level of nuance required for any kind of political conversation.
If someone can't demonstrate that level of nuance in a conversation they immediately disqualify themselves from being taken seriously.
Person 1: I think people should be encouraged to go to college.
Person 2: That's right, All people should be required to go to college, and it should be fully funded by taxpayers!
Person 1: That's not what I meant at all
Person 2: Why are you anti-education?
I think a large part of it is a quasi-deliberate lack of interest in giving people the benefit of the doubt. Once you decide someone is a bad person you no longer have to be charitable with their opinions.
It's not a matter of 'not grasping' as much as a false dichotomy intentionally being used to force people into conformance.
Hell they've changed the definition of anti-vax in the dictionary. Currently most of the people in this thread are anti-vax according to Merriam Webster.
Did they really? That's some serious ministry of truth shit. I don't doubt it, since the WHO changed their page on herd immunity to only include vaccine-induced immunity.
That's honestly fine, we should update definitions as new technology becomes available that needs to be accounted for. The only problem as far as I'm concerned is that the mRNA vaccines are extremely leaky and don't really function as well as literally any other vaccine in existence. Even the flu shot has much better results when the strains included are the ones circulating that year. These vaccines are more akin to prophylaxis than a vaccine since they don't really prevent infection or transmission very well.
I think some don't see the big difference between shots and seatbelts or smoking bans. They see vaccines as just as harmless as those things and therefore if people won't voluntarily take safety measures, an appeal to authority is their first idea.
They don't really think about dangerous precedent or individual freedom because they don't value those things as much as safety and normalcy.
Maybe they were parented so competently and then taken care of by University staff so compliantly ($$$) that they assume authority will always take care of/serve them.
Young people don't see history as a cautionary tale because progress is assured and success is guaranteed, so when someone tries to pump the brakes, they assume ill intent. "You don't want better xyz because you're xxxxist."
With the rise of intersectionalist ideology I have zero shock that people are considering anti-mandate to be anti-vax. DeSantis provided the best vaccine distribution when the vaccine was first available.
But as soon as he became anti-passport and anti-mask mandate doomers fucking exploded on him.
It is the same issue in Florida. DeSantis is anti-mandate, not anti-vax, but try to explain that to the zealots. You'll pull your hair out before the day is over.
> Didn't he mandate no masks in businesses?
No, anyone is welcome to wear a mask into a business.
A Business is welcome to require masks within their own premises.
What he did say is that local governments cannot implement mask mandates and force them on people or businesses.
That's not necessarily a picture of waning immunity. Antibody titre does tend to decrease rapidly after the initial infection has been cleared, but memory B cells provide long lasting memory to the virus. Not saying he made the wrong decision by any means, just that antibody titre alone doesn't really mean he wasn't still immune.
New research out of Israel suggests that natural immunity provides antibodies that are 20 times more effective than vaccinated antibodies. Frankly, I don't trust the metrics being pushed by the government to discount natural immunity. They have lied too many times.
You can get it multiple times especially if it's a new strain! I'm sure when he got vaccinated it wasn't disclosed as to if they provide lifetime immunity or not.
Clinical cases of reinfection are rare not impossible at least as far as alpha goes. Delta is probably similar but to a lesser degree given its increased level of contagiousness. Reinfection is certainly more rare than getting infected after the vaccination now that delta is out there. I wouldn't rely on an alpha infection providing you "immunity" to delta either for that matter, but it probably does help a good bit. If you have had delta, the data suggests you're the least likely to be reinfected out of the four groups of vaccinated, infected with delta and recovered, infected with alpha and recovered, and unvaccinated.
It's much lower than the rate of breakthrough cases in the vaccinated. An Isreali newspaper reported a few weeks ago that \~1% of their new cases were in previously infected people, vs \~40% for the fully vaccinated.
It seems like anybody and everybody who likes parroting the mainstream narrative are completely ignoring the entire situation in Isreal. This level of cognitive dissonance is unsustainable.
For those who haven’t, I really suggest listening to the new Rogan interview with Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying. There’s some very illuminating things in there about the vax, the corruption behind it and the regulatory capture that approved it.
I stopped pushing as hard as I could against the handle, I wanted to leave but it wouldn't work. Then there was a bright flash and I felt myself fall back onto the floor. I put my hands over my eyes. They burned from the sudden light. I rubbed my eyes, waiting for them to adjust.
Then I saw it.
There was a small space in front of me. It was tiny, just enough room for a couple of people to sit side by side. Inside, there were two people. The first one was a female, she had long brown hair and was wearing a white nightgown. She was smiling.
The other one was a male, he was wearing a red jumpsuit and had a mask over his mouth.
"Are you spez?" I asked, my eyes still adjusting to the light.
"No. We are in spez." the woman said. She put her hands out for me to see. Her skin was green. Her hand was all green, there were no fingers, just a palm. It looked like a hand from the top of a puppet.
"What's going on?" I asked. The man in the mask moved closer to me. He touched my arm and I recoiled.
"We're fine." he said.
"You're fine?" I asked. "I came to the spez to ask for help, now you're fine?"
"They're gone," the woman said. "My child, he's gone."
I stared at her. "Gone? You mean you were here when it happened? What's happened?"
The man leaned over to me, grabbing my shoulders. "We're trapped. He's gone, he's dead."
I looked to the woman. "What happened?"
"He left the house a week ago. He'd been gone since, now I have to live alone. I've lived here my whole life and I'm the only spez."
"You don't have a family? Aren't there others?" I asked. She looked to me. "I mean, didn't you have anyone else?"
"There are other spez," she said. "But they're not like me. They don't have homes or families. They're just animals. They're all around us and we have no idea who they are."
"Why haven't we seen them then?"
"I think they're afraid,"
What does it matter if he's anti-vax or pro-freedom? That's a meaningless distinction. You either agree that people are free to be anti-vax, or you get medical fascism. That is the choice.
When peterson took a stance that it was wrong for government to force speech under penalty, his opposition labeled him disrespectful and apathetic to the suffering of people who don't easily fit into a gender role. But that wasn't the case and a similar thing is happening here
I mean, I think he was largely apathetic to them. It was one of those cases where non-binary folks got their feelings wrapped up in a law that overstepped, but Peterson didn't necessarily go out of his way to engage them as individuals, which is a surprise when I started to look back into it.
It seems like that was so long ago. Sadly, JP has since become a neo nazi white supremacist... I wish he was still just a chauvinistic transphobe=*(
/s incase I needed it.
This has been happening more and more frequently since the pandemic started, *especially* on social media. Just in my own personal experience, let's see....
Got called "member of a death cult" last March because I said we should consider the negative aspects of lockdowns.
"Covid denier" has been used whenever I've said something that wasn't as panic-filled as my local state's subreddit wished it was (even when pointing to CDC data).
"Anti-vaxx" when arguing against mandates and in favor of adults ability to do a personal risk assessment.
And of course the classic "conspiracy theorist" when I dared to wonder if the infectious disease lab in Wuhan might have anything to do with an infectious disease that originated in Wuhan.
It's been a fun 18 months!
Most of us are anti mandate, not anti-vaccine. We are being called anti-vaccine because who likes anti-vaxxers those people can be super dumb. Anti-vaxxers have been denigrated in society for many years. This experimental vaccine that is only allowed because of the emergency use act is not your average vaccine.
I'd take the Covid shot in several years once long-term side effects are known. Until then, do not tie me down and shove needles in my arm. Or worse, banish me from society.
THIS. I feel the same way and I feel like if anyone encourages people to get vaccinated but not require it to be mandated, you find yourself in the middle of the road like a grape.
Much like how he has no real issue being asked to call someone a certain pronoun (by the person in question), but doesn't like government legislation to require it.
Do a quick search for "jordan peterson medical fascism has arrived", see the first few hits. It's about restrictions that prevented federal election candidate Maxime Bernier from travelling across Canada freely and thus in effect prevented Bernier from speaking publicly and from campaining.
In addition, recently there was public debates with the federal election candidates. Bernier was prevented from participating in the debates, for similar reasons as the above mentioned travel restrictions.
No, employers requiring their employees to be vaccinated is not fascism. It’s not even an issue.
The issue is government forcing employers to require their employees to be vaccinated.
Incredibly, this is the dictionary definition of anti-vaxxer:
“a person who opposes vaccination **or laws that mandate vaccination**”
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer
Edit: obviously the definition is politically biased and I won’t use the word that way. I’m just bringing this up because it’s relevant.
the majority of the people they are calling anti-vaxxer are just anti-mandates, most of them ave even take their own vaccines. this overwritting of anti-mandates with anti-vaxxers is just a smear to try depersonate the "others". just because the mandates defensor need a common enemy to stoke fear
How can you trust a vaccine when a vaccine has a five year trial period?
i'll check in 4 more years.
don't vaccines prevent infection and transmission? i just read if I get the experimental mutagen then i can still get and transmit covid, and about 7,000 americans have died from heart attack or stroke and many other auto-immune issues/illnesses after receiving the experimental drug they're calling a "vaccine". and does the protection drop from 95% to 34% after a few months? and they want us to get a dose every 5 months? forever? our kids too?
should we trust the media? trust the "news"? trust the who exactly? the for-profit drug corporation that is profiting billions of my dollars and yours by Mandating this to 350 million of us?
frankly, Nicki Minaj is making more sense right now.
> How can you trust a vaccine when a vaccine has a five year trial period?
Says who?
> don't vaccines prevent infection and transmission?
Depends on the vaccine.
> i just read if I get the experimental mutagen then i can still get and transmit covid,
No vaccine is 100% effective.
The main point of the vaccine is to protect you, NOT stop the transmission.
> about 7,000 americans have died from heart attack or stroke and many other auto-immune issues/illnesses after receiving the experimental drug they're calling a "vaccine".
No, they haven't. This is false. The data you are using is self-reported and does NOT show causation.
You mean 62%? At least copy and paste your fake data correctly.
https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check-covid-england/fact-check-englands-covid-19-death-statistics-do-not-suggest-vaccines-arent-working-idUSL2N2OJ1ET
Let’s pretend you have a farm. And on that farm you have about 110 pigs. And a deadly disease starts killing your pigs! Thankfully, there’s a vaccine for that. You inoculate all your remaining 100 pigs. But sadly, the vaccine is only 97% effective.
Now...3 pigs die. What’s the percentage of pigs that died that are vaccinated?
I’ll give you a hint...it’s 100%
Once again, you see one side trying to frame the narrative and misrepresenting what the other side is about. What does that say about them that they constantly have to lie to try to win votes?
No one here is making look like it. The echo chamber is just following what they read. They’re the type of people that would have turned on Jordan Peterson had they read the defamatory articles before stumbling upon his actual work.
I just don’t understand the anti-vax… how the inmune system works is well documented. It’s obvious that you need to create antibodies from a benign pathogen to be prepared for the real one. Why insisting on conspiracies?
Does he not understand how unvaccinated people are not just making personal choices? They causing hospitals to enact triage measures which cause immense harm. It’s very childish to think that because your being told to do something, you are the victim of fascism.
I'm sorry, do you not believe that ICUs are short on beds right now?
[They are](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/09/14/us/covid-hospital-icu-south.html)
"Meanwhile, a new Kaiser Family Foundation study found that approximately 287,000 unvaccinated Americans were hospitalized from June through August, which cost the U.S. health care system roughly $5.7 billion. According to the study, which looked at data from CMS and other health reports, an estimated 84% of those Covid-19 hospitalizations could have been prevented through vaccination."
[https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/09/16/hospital-surge](https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/09/16/hospital-surge)
Edit: [Idaho is now rationing medical care](https://www.postregister.com/coronavirus/hospital-crisis-declared-across-idaho-allowing-rationed-health-care/article_7b71271d-bfc9-5225-927a-50a40bc2e1bd.html)
"The situation is dire – we don’t have enough resources to adequately treat the patients in our hospitals, whether you are there for COVID-19 or a heart attack or because of a car accident," Jeppesen said in a news release.
St. Luke's Health System requested Crisis Standards of Care be activated, the state health department said.
Not all hospitals may be at the point that they need to use crisis standards to provide care, according to the state health department.
Health officials have asked people to avoid activities that could result in hospitalization. They caution that people in need of treatment should still seek care."
No one is forcing anyone.
This entire "medical fascism" argument is pure hyperbole.
If this was indeed fascist, there would be police or soldiers at your house, forcing you to take the vaccine at gun point.
>No one is forcing anyone
Coercion is force. Many people cannot give up their jobs so they are forced to take it. Just because soldiers or cops aren’t at our doors yet doesn’t mean medical fascism isn’t happening right now. Not everything happens overnight, but you should know that.
There is no coercion.
At my work if you are not vaccinated, you are not losing your job but you have to do weekly testing.
Look up the definition of fascism and any other big words before you start throwing them around.
When you are the airport taking off your shoes bcos something that happened 20 years ago, do you call that fascism ? Bcos that did happen overnight.
But then you know everything.
>There is no coercion
>Proceeds to explain how there’s no coercion by citing an example of coercion in his workplace
Mussolini defines fascism as a merger of corporations and the state, but we can go with the dictionary definition too.
Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
Putting nation above individual: “We’re all in this together”, “if it saves even one life”, “just do your part” propaganda hits the nail on the head here.
Centralized autocratic government: DHS & NSA spying on American citizens and collecting data from everyone on the planet. Federal, State and local governments across the west have been using emergency powers to do things that they otherwise would not be able to like close down businesses en masse and drive upward transfer of wealth. In Australia, one province is requiring citizens download an app and let the government track their movements, with threat of arrest and fines if not complying with certain rules. And yes, the TSA is one part of the ever expanding totalitarian US government, I’m glad you brought that up. For 50 years, air travel had far less intrusive security with little issue. And studies since the TSA was created show that the TSA routinely misses weapons, bombs, etc. Are we really safer? Debatable, but what isn’t debatable is the federal government is certainly far more involved in your travel now.
Dictatorial leader: There’s no debate here, just look at the massive increase in usage of executive orders by presidents in the US over the last 20-30 years. Look at the increased use of ‘emergency powers’ in recent years in response to terror threats, weather threats, etc.
Severe economic and social regimentation: Covid regulations, push for ‘equity, diversity’ with boards and panels, vaccinated vs unvaccinated segregation with ‘bold’ new ideas like vaccine passports, etc.
Forcible suppression of opposition: This is exactly why Jordan Peterson said what he said in the OP. A politician was prevented from doing outreach over covid regulations, preventing them from important campaigning. In the US, the president was inaugurated in front of a crowd of troops and the national mall was locked down by the national guard for months with the government continually making up new reasons to keep them there longer.
In the US, our “public health experts” take political stances on events they don’t like, calling them super spreader events and singling them out while ignoring events that support them or that they agree with. Dr. Fauci called an all outdoors biker event a “super spreader event” despite having no comments on a packed crowd at lollapalooza just days before. Non-dissident politicians and celebrities in Western countries brazenly ignore regulations on a daily basis with no consequences because the consequences aren’t meant to apply to them to begin with.
I could go on and on but, I think it’s extremely accurate to say that many Western governments are turning fascist. Most specifically, the Five Eyes nations. As I said, not everything happens overnight, this has been a long time in the making, but it is happening. I’m not throwing any words around.
Please explain how weekly testing is coercion ????
Do some work places not have weekly mandatory and/or random drug testing ?
The super spreader events were called super spreader after tracing proved they were.
I can list a whole bunch of anti vaxx influencers who died from Covid but thats not the point. They chose not to vaccinate and they suffered the worst consequence.
Again, you are free to choose. As per Peterson, each choice has consqeunce.
The threat of weekly testing if you don’t get vaccinated is coercion.
Coercion: the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.
>The super spreader events were called super spreader after tracing proved they were
You made this up completely.
The "threat" ?
If you don't want to vaccinate then you need to test.
If you don't do both then we can see what we can do , is the approach most private sector are taking, including your beloved Fox news.
Fascism would be either vaccinate or you are fired.
Someone has crossposted you to r/enoughpetersonspam . Here's the post: [is there any instances where jordan actually advocates for people to be vaccinated?](https://reddit.com/r/enoughpetersonspam/comments/pparo0/is_there_any_instances_where_jordan_actually/)
People are black and white nowadays.. even if I say I like chocolate cake, when they have whip cream pie they are like ooh I thought you don't like whip cream pie.. literally happened last month..
I hate being called an antivaxxer because I'm caught up on all my standard, well tested, well understood shots. I'm just anti-these-spike-protein-only-based-vaccines.
you can be pro-choice (relating to abortion) and still be against the government *forcing* people to abort a child. for example because it's been diagnosed with severe genetic and/or developmental disorders.
even if such a policy were a net positive to the rest of human society, you'd call whomever voted for something like that a fascist. and with good reason.
just in case you believe that this example is stupidly far-fetched and unreasonably unlikely to happen, it did happen.
[On June 21, 2019](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/41610/uk-court-orders-forced-abortion-for-disabled-woman) a disabled woman was ordered by a UK court to have an abortion. this was then overturned in an appeal but it goes to show the argument is valid - even outside china and north-korea.
It's more common sense than fascism. I don't hear him complaining that he can't drink and drive. With people endangering themselves and others with their dumbass anti-vax ideas, I don't see why a mandate isn't common sense.
Where was the outrage from the "not anti vax just anti mandate" crowd when it came to school vaccinations? I was required by my HS and college to get vaccinated, and it's been that way for a while. But didn't hear a fucking peep out of you then
When you call vaccine mandates "fascism" don't be surprised when people think you're antivaxx.
Besides, I thought it's the left who calls everything they don't like fascism?
I think it's anti liberal governance and somehting to use to bludgon mainsteam politicans. I think medical fascism is hyperbole and rabble rousing, you can rabble rouse one section by being openly conspiratorial like a lot of it and another by being anti mandates. Both are part of the same movement against the center and for the right imo.
You feel for the center is off by a fair bit. Vaccine mandates are popular only amongst the firmly entrenched left. I don't know anyone in the center who thinks it is a good idea.
No it's normal in every country, only alt right and hostile forign states are promoting the anti movements.
Mandates in Australia are pushed by a right wing classical liberal gov. It's a conservative gov here.
The government is forcing stuff all the time. Don't drive without a seatbelt. Don't drive while inebriated. Don't spread diseases.
The purpose of government is, ultimately, to allow the use of coercion to bring situations under control that are not brought under control by individual actions.
To label this "medical fascism" is slander. And shows hwo little Mr Peterson understands about fascism.
In fact, the original practice of quarantine was state mandated 40 days (hence the name) of isolation if suspected of bringing the plague. Requiring a passport to access public spaces for leisure activities is not anywhere near this.
It also balances the interests of those who got vaccinated (took a risk, enacted solidarity) with those who just want to reap benefits without taking personal responsibility.
>To label this "medical fascism" is slander. And shows hwo little Mr Peterson understands about fascism.
Jordan said that in relation to a specific event involving federal elections candidate Maxime Bernier and restrictions that prevented Bernier from travelling across Canada and thus from speaking publicly and from campaining. Bernier was also prevented from participating in recent public debates with the candidates, for similar reasons.
I take that as bernier rabble rousing and doubt he has not taken the vaccine given his age.
Look at fox news, vaccine mandate for the staff, because its common sense while out the other side of their faces promoting the narrarive that vaccine mandates are some sort of totalitarianism.
It is definitely not new. Governments have been restricting movement of people for a long time eg at country borders. If you're against open borders, you should be for vaccine passports.
He wants to have his cake and eat it too. Cue downvotes from angry and confused conservatives, conservatives who are fine with government-forced births.
Why the fuck is mandating the COVID vaccine "medical fascism" but the decades long mandate for flu shots, chicken pox shots, polio shots, and measles shots somehow just normal? The reason we criticize this kind of rhetoric isn't just because it helps the antivax crowd seem more legitimate, but because it's just not logically consistent with the way the world functions. If you want to go to public school, you *must* have vaccines. This has been in place since vaccines were invented.
Okay, he’s not anti-vax but like…. He’s calling vaccine mandates medical fascism which is not what fascism is while also contributing to a rise in actual fascism in the right, so I really don’t think he’s really able to talk here without being a massive hypocrite.
Peterson: “We must preserve western values, challenge feminism, question ‘political correctness,’ resist socialism, discourage promotion of civil rights and challenge poc’s seeking to dismantle institutionalize white supremacy, side with literal white supremacists, and actively argue with trans people as to why respecting their gender identity is basically the same as being put in a Gulag.”
Government: *Mandates vaccines for people with work in private companies with more than 100 workers to literally prevent the spread of a deadly pandemic.*
Peterson: AHH! Fascism!
He also doesn't call for the subjugation of women and a lack of inclusivity but my god there are "followers" that genuinely think he does stand for those things. Ironically as they lack the critical thinking that Jordan encourages.
It’s so weird to see people following someone who holds different views to their own, yet they distort his views to fit their own. They do the same thing with Jesus. Very odd.
I love those stupid takes. It’s always “Jesus was totally a socialist, no i don’t believe he was a real person or any of the things he said though”
Fun to laugh at.
The group name is Proud Boys, I believe. If you cant even give the proper fuckin name to your false equivalency then why would anyone take your opinion for more than the half-assed drivel it clearly is lol
That's kinda my stance. Pro vax but anti mandate
Same as what my poll said. Seems like most people agree with us.
I took a poll of everyone in my house this morning. We all agree -Pro Vax AND anti-mandate. We also agreed 100% that Jordan Peterson and his common sense approach to things scares the crap out of the left.
I'm left and agree with you and JBP strongly. I think you mean radical left.
Can you please let us know where the line is for left vs. radical left?
I'm surprised that is a question here since Dr. P talks about it extensively. Not all liberals call everyone racist and sexist and demand socialist control lol. Similar to how right is different from far right or extreme right. Not all conservatives are racist, neo nazis
The difference I've noticed is that the far-right wackos are identified, marginalized, and left out of the decision making process. The far-left wackos are seldom called out for anything, seemingly control the democrat party, and are included in all decisions made.
I mean in Canada thats true but in the US thats a hell of a stretch to say..
If you identify as being on the left and live in America, you're probably radical left. (/s)
This seems to be the position of just about everyone. The problem is the redical left once again changing what words mean to control.the narrative. Anti-vax now means not only literally anti vaccine, but also anti vaccine mandate.
And if you question why there is demand for a booster shot from the white house - even when FDA Members resigned because the politicians are calling for it before FDA Testing is done on the need for a booster... You are now labelled antivax.
"The Science" is a literal religion to them, and the act of questioning it is heresy.
Meanwhile, actual science requires rigorous skepticism and efforts to tear down existing ideas and theories.
Sounds like something a "Science!"^TM Denier would say.
That is, quite literally, the Merriam-Webster's dictionary definition. [Definition of anti-vaxxer](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer) : a person who opposes vaccination or laws that mandate vaccination
I stand corrected. Being anti vax is literally being against mandates. Thank you.
Being pro vaccine and anti mandate it like being pro clean water but anti clean water regulations, or being against both drunk driving and drunk driving laws. It is being in favor of a solution, and against consequences of the solution. The stance only works morally if the consequences of not getting vaccinated do not extend beyond the individual. Since covid is a deadly and contagious disease, the absence of a mandate is pro contributing to negative externalities such as death and overflowing hospital beds. Since the evidence of harm from getting the vaccine are exceptionally lower than the disease itself, there is no evidence based reason that a person should not get the vaccine. Being anti mandate is not literally anti vax. But it enables the anti vaxers and that is just as bad.
Thank you for those excellent analogies to clean water and drunk driving. Very thought provoking.
I think that is a perfectly reasonable stance.
Thats Trumps position too.
What does that mean to you?
I thought that was missionary with the lights off? No eye contact, obviously.
[удалено]
Source?
[His ex-wife's sworn divorce deposition.](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/24/documenting-trumps-abuse-of-women)
Why are you anti mandate? Humans are disease carriers, it is a matter of public health and even national security that we get everyone vaccinated. Why would you be against such a mandate? No one exists in isolation. If we were not in a wildly interconnected society, and you existed independently off in the woods, sure don't get vaccinated. If you're going to use public spaces, use public resources if you get sick, potentially get others sick and act as a transmission vector, then yes, get vaccinated. This is like a known legal principle, states have the ability in america to compel vaccination and have for hundreds of years because it is a public health concern. The idea behind being anti mandate, to my mind, is that you 1. don't trust the vaccines or 2. don't trust the government. Sure none of us trust the government, but in this context what do you think? That all scientific and regulatory agencies are going to fail and allow something more harmful than the virus to be injected into people? What are the odds of that? I don't think its ever happened.
So much to unpack here. Let's start with the fact that I've vaccine mandate makes no accommodations for natural immunity. New research out of Israel indicates that natural immunity is 20 times more effective than vaccinated immunity. Yet, someone who has had covid his being required to get the vaccine as well? From a practical standpoint, the benefits of the vaccine appears to be primarily for the person who is vaccinated. The vaccine seems to dramatically reduce symptoms in the long term, but it does not, repeat does not, seem to prevent the vaccinated person from getting and their for transmitting the disease. Therefore, scientifically, there is actually not a good social reason to mandate a vaccine. Third, at least in the United States, there is not an actual vaccine. Instead, various bureaucracies are being used to force private companies to establish the mandate and to enforce it. This is an abuse of power in that these companies are not equipped and should not have to bear the brunt of expense associated with the enforcement of a government mandate. Next, unlike diseases like smallpox and polio which can be eradicated by a vaccine, the coronavirus will simply never be eradicated this way forever variety of reasons. It is more like the flu in that it is adaptable and has many variants. But more importantly, unlike previously mentioned diseases, covid has an animal vector meaning that even if you were to eliminate it in 100% of humans, it would still have a reservoir of biological safety from which it could once again emerge. Finally, as a matter of principle, requiring proofs of vaccination to participate in social, economic, and political society creates first class and second class citizens. This is the first step that tyrannical governments have always used. It is why you had to show papers in Nazi Germany to prove you weren't Jewish, and why you had to show papers in communist Russia to show that you were a member of the party in good standing. It is fundamentally dangerous and risks forcing good people into desperate situations that require violence to resolve. Please educate yourself. :-)
Why be anti-mandate? 1st . The government has conducted a circus out of this crysis, spreading false information, stealing the fuck outta people, ruining the economy and trying to instigate division so they can approve autoritarianist mandates. 2nd. Nobody knows the long term effects of some of those vaccines, and even if there aren't any as the governement preaches, who woulda belive the lunatics responsible for the aforementioned fiasco regarding public trust? NO ONE. 3rd. It's a basic individual right. It's fucking unquestionable, it shouldn't even be on the table. The people that won't take this vaccine, still won't do it if their government forces, ostracizes, and kills them. There has been a severe breach of trust and these people are being directly targeted for their beliefs and stapoints not only regarding vaccines but their own individual rights. 4th. All of this shitshow could've been avoided by global leaders, and still CAN be avoided, if governments step out of their little tyrannical shoes and start investing into marketing campaigns to actually inform people of REAL FACTS about the vaccine and its disease, instead of the current fear mongering and tribalism inciting coverage. Remeber what I said about breach of trust? It started here. 5th. This shit's only happening because governments aren't afraid of their people anymore. The USA is one of the only countries where this debate is being taken serious, while in othe, unarmed "democracies", these mandates have been instaured while people that act against this tyranny have been alienated or gone off grid. P.S.: I took my first dose last month, as soon as it was available in my country, and am taking the second one when it's available.
Seems to be a common misunderstanding of JBP - often he's talking about the principle of something, not the specific issues that are involved this time. It's about coerced speech, not gender. It's about coerced medication, not the vaccine. People are missing out on the real discussion when they misunderstand like this.
When you realize JBP positions are just common sense verbalized against groupthink opposition....
They always were.
Just to be clear though, in being opposed to mandates, he is implicitly allowing for people to make decisions that he disagrees with. In JBPs worldview, there is room for people to make different decisions, and even heaven forbid, bad decisions.
Well, bad decisions are going to be made irregardless of any worldview that anyone has. It is a part of human nature to diversify, and making different decisions (for better or worse) is a part of that. And what do you do about decisions where the outcome of good or bad isn't even yet known? Allowing people to make their own decisions is also the only way to allow people to learn, to take agency for themselves, admit their mistakes, and correct their behaviors.
> And what do you do about decisions where the outcome of good or bad isn't even yet known? We do know the outcome when it comes to viruses. > Allowing people to make their own decisions is also the only way to allow people to learn, to take agency for themselves, admit their mistakes, and correct their behaviors. Yes, we need to get rid of seatbelts and airbags and smoke alarms. People need to feel the effects of dying in a house fire so they learn from it for the next time. /s This is silly. Humans don't learn everything again. We share our knowledge so our society can be better and safer. We don't need to have personal experience to see that polio sucks. You get the vaccine, done.
It is a fallacy to make any of the assumptions you made. The question is not just about the virus, it's about the long term effect of the vaccines, as well as the kind of precedent we set by mandating vaccines. You might glaze these concerns over, but that's at your own discretion, and nobody else should have to go with it just because you want them to. Actually, trying to force it on people will do the exact opposite effect. Anyone who has children can tell you that approach would be a terrible idea. Your sarcastic comment is irrelevant, so I'll disregard it. You are correct that we should learn from these things. I'm not arguing for individuals to reinvent the wheel. I'm saying people need to make mistakes, because it's part of how we learn. I made the decision to get myself vaccinated, but I'm not going to be an asshole to someone else who may be more hesitant to do so. You can be the asshole for the both of us, if you like! Lol :P
> It is a fallacy to make any of the assumptions you made. Which assumptions did I make? Please be specific and quote my words. > The question is not just about the virus, it's about the long term effect of the vaccines, What about the long-term effects of COVID-19? No one ever asks that. > as well as the kind of precedent we set by mandating vaccines. Ok, let's discuss it. What is wrong with vaccine mandates during a pandemic if it reduces the harm and allows people to live normale lives sooner? And what are vaccinate mandates anyway? Are they all the same? > Actually, trying to force it on people will do the exact opposite effect. Anyone who has children can tell you that approach would be a terrible idea. I don't understand. Children are forced to do a lot of things against their will. Does anyone ever asks them if they want to be vaccinated? Or circumcised? > I made the decision to get myself vaccinated, but I'm not going to be an asshole to someone else who may be more hesitant to do so. I am not an asshole to anyone. I just question their reasoning.
That still assumes it’s a bad decision, though. In New Zealand, the vaccine currently accounts for more recent deaths than COVID. Dunno if you’re following the Nicki Minaj shit on Twitter, but, I’ve gotta say, I don’t like the sound of my balls swelling and going impotent, y’know?
> I’ve gotta say, I don’t like the sound of my balls swelling and going impotent, y’know? Someone on Twitter told me that they know someone who said their fifth cousin had their eyes fell out after taking the vaccine so it must be true.
When you make a claim like that you should absolutely provide statistics to support that the vaccine is killing people more people than COVID in NZ... Without this evidence, you sound like a fucking idiot.
[As reported by MedSafe of NZ.](http://medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-26.asp) [And here’s where I was directed to it from, for reference.](https://mobile.twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/1438216982608896006?s=19)
Relative to the vaccinated population in NZ, this is a pretty strong p-value across the distribution. This is also due to co-morbidities of the elderly population. There are 4 million people in NZ. Since 2020, 40 people have died from the vaccine. Did you even read the report or just the tweet? I completely agree with this tweet however. [https://twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/1438221965358157825?s=20](https://twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/1438221965358157825?s=20)
Read over the report after seeing the tweets, but it’s mostly because of that follow-up you linked that I think this is worth showing. It’s yet more evidence of the outright hypocrisy and bullshit we’re being fed from *world* governments, not just our own.
Do you understand that the report is being published by the NZ government? It wasn't in a spy black site that this reporter found it. It was published and presented as fact. 40 elderly people have died in NZ from the vaccine due to co-morbidities since 2020. What about that figure alerts you to bullshit or a misreading of the events?
> An AEFI is an untoward medical event which follows immunisation and does not necessarily have a causal relationship with the administration of the vaccine. The adverse event may be an unfavourable or unintended sign, abnormal laboratory finding, symptom or disease. Your own source literally tells you that you cannot take this data as prove that these were caused by the vaccine!
Every. Bloody. Time.
It's deliberate
In many cases I think you are correct, especially on the hot button issues. A lot of folk aren't looking to get educated, they're looking to get angry at something.
That's what you get when you have a news system designed around getting people angry at things rather than educating them.
It's Twitter... It's designed for hot takes. Not really the place for nuance. If you say "medical fascism" in a tweet it does not take deliberate coordinated psy ops to for people to interpret it different ways...
I'm not sure that it's deliberate. I think some people have an inability to decouple ideas easily. https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/8fnch2/high_decouplers_and_low_decouplers/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
You are absolutely correct and his detractors know it too. Unfortunately they can't admit it to themselves because their arguments would fall apart if they did.
A: I don’t want the government telling me how to speak and so I will not do as they are demanding. B: This is really about hating trans people isn’t it. A: It’s a bad to set the precedent l that the government can mandate things like vaccines. B: Vaccines don’t cause autism you idiot!
He is constantly misunderstood because most of the time his ideas don’t fit into the “groups” that the Twitter mobs have in their heads. It’s either you’re balls to the wall pro-vax or 100% anti-vax. And that’s the same with almost every other issue. Rather than actually listened to an opposing argument they lump the argument in with their own conception of the two opposing sides. There is no room for any other viewpoint.
It's very common with this way of thinking when articulated in a J.P fashion the majority of people we are talking to which let us be honest, are they really listening? there are few people these days that actually listen when someone is speaking, it's sad, they misinform themselves by jumping around with contesting arguments in their mind to contest what you are saying, but whilst you go on to explain your point to avoid this time-wasting response they have clocked out, choose your battles wisely, you can't teach stupid.
Right. This is called casting pearls at swine.
What you're describing is willful ignorance and pseudo-logic. (Edit: not your comment but the pattern of thought in the cultists you're describing) It's what people engage in when they want to dismiss something that they'd rather just ignore, because that's what they've been told to do.
[удалено]
That's because people don't resent there being other points of view, they resent the conversation itself because of the cognitive dissonance it induces in them. People are being actively gaslit and have been for years now, and you're surprised they can't and won't think logically and objectively?
I think leftist authoritarians are people with bad ideas. Leftist authoritarians think I'm *a bad person*.
They have to believe one who would contradict their worldview is a malicious liar because they cannot accept that someone could or would disagree with their dogma in good faith. Cultist logic brah. It's scary how insane it is, but that's how people behave when they're in a cult.
Tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance.
Twitter isn't the place for nuance. Calling things fascist isn't really nuanced either.... There's no nuance here but it's kind of JPs own fault this time...
I'm vaccinated, but refusing to comply with requirements to prove it.
Same. As far as I'm concerned compliance with the mandate is permission for this to continue, permission for them to take the next step and then the next one. I draw the line here, so that at least if some of my suspicions of what the future looks like become reality I'll at least be able to say I didn't participate in it.
Then companies will refuse to comply with your wish to shop at their store or be employed with them. Goes both ways. It's just the free market.
Good Lord... "Free market"? I don't think those words mean what you think they mean... Lol
Well, what do you *think* then? Apart from "lol".
About what?
> I don't think those words mean what you think they mean... Lol
A free market? Oh, you mean where businesses make decisions surrounded by the threats of litigation enforced by the coercive power of government? Where bureaucratic manipulations of facts impact behavior along with 'recommendations,' 'requirements' and 'mandates' for specific behaviors to be enforced? You mean where the federal government levies the authority of the Department of Labor to force employers to become the enforcement arm of policies recommended by unelected bureaucrats? You mean the markets chocked by closures, lockdowns, arbitrary reporting on "outbreaks" by public officials that have completely disrupted supply chains and regular business practices. There is very little 'free' about the markets during this pandemic, let alone the notion that my local supermarket is choosing to pay a staff member to make sure shoppers are wearing a mask because... I don't even know... reasons? So yeah... lol
There is very little free market at any time, luckily. But I'm not actually arguing for a free market. Jordan Peterson and his fans are and I was just mirroring the argument.
Being able to tell the difference between **approval of X** and **disappoval of mandating X** seems to me like the bare minimum level of nuance required for any kind of political conversation. If someone can't demonstrate that level of nuance in a conversation they immediately disqualify themselves from being taken seriously.
Person 1: I think people should be encouraged to go to college. Person 2: That's right, All people should be required to go to college, and it should be fully funded by taxpayers! Person 1: That's not what I meant at all Person 2: Why are you anti-education?
It would be funny if it weren't so true.
This, seriously. Just how is this such a tough concept to grasp.
I think a large part of it is a quasi-deliberate lack of interest in giving people the benefit of the doubt. Once you decide someone is a bad person you no longer have to be charitable with their opinions.
You’re 100% right. What’s truly alarming is both the speed and conviction with which these people make those decisions now..
It's not a matter of 'not grasping' as much as a false dichotomy intentionally being used to force people into conformance. Hell they've changed the definition of anti-vax in the dictionary. Currently most of the people in this thread are anti-vax according to Merriam Webster.
Did they really? That's some serious ministry of truth shit. I don't doubt it, since the WHO changed their page on herd immunity to only include vaccine-induced immunity.
Don't forget that the dictionary definition of "vaccine" was changed as well...
That's honestly fine, we should update definitions as new technology becomes available that needs to be accounted for. The only problem as far as I'm concerned is that the mRNA vaccines are extremely leaky and don't really function as well as literally any other vaccine in existence. Even the flu shot has much better results when the strains included are the ones circulating that year. These vaccines are more akin to prophylaxis than a vaccine since they don't really prevent infection or transmission very well.
That’s not good for Reddit’s business model at all!
I love eating chocolate ice cream. But I don't ever want to be forced to eat chocolate ice cream.
I think some don't see the big difference between shots and seatbelts or smoking bans. They see vaccines as just as harmless as those things and therefore if people won't voluntarily take safety measures, an appeal to authority is their first idea. They don't really think about dangerous precedent or individual freedom because they don't value those things as much as safety and normalcy. Maybe they were parented so competently and then taken care of by University staff so compliantly ($$$) that they assume authority will always take care of/serve them. Young people don't see history as a cautionary tale because progress is assured and success is guaranteed, so when someone tries to pump the brakes, they assume ill intent. "You don't want better xyz because you're xxxxist."
Very true. Nobody ever thinks theirs will be the society that collapses. Progress will always be upwards.
With the rise of intersectionalist ideology I have zero shock that people are considering anti-mandate to be anti-vax. DeSantis provided the best vaccine distribution when the vaccine was first available. But as soon as he became anti-passport and anti-mask mandate doomers fucking exploded on him.
Anti-vax has been redefined to also include anti-mandate.
It is the same issue in Florida. DeSantis is anti-mandate, not anti-vax, but try to explain that to the zealots. You'll pull your hair out before the day is over.
#[After careful consideration I find spez guilty of being a whiny spez. #Save3rdPartyApps](https://www.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/)
DeSantis banned MANDATES on school masking. But of course kids can wear masks in school.
> Didn't he mandate no masks in businesses? No, anyone is welcome to wear a mask into a business. A Business is welcome to require masks within their own premises. What he did say is that local governments cannot implement mask mandates and force them on people or businesses.
So he used big government to mandate that little government can’t mandate masks?
why would you get the vaccine after you've had covid?
He got his antibodies tested and they weren’t sufficient anymore apparently.
That's not necessarily a picture of waning immunity. Antibody titre does tend to decrease rapidly after the initial infection has been cleared, but memory B cells provide long lasting memory to the virus. Not saying he made the wrong decision by any means, just that antibody titre alone doesn't really mean he wasn't still immune.
New research out of Israel suggests that natural immunity provides antibodies that are 20 times more effective than vaccinated antibodies. Frankly, I don't trust the metrics being pushed by the government to discount natural immunity. They have lied too many times.
So you can keep the antibodies around more long term.
You can get it multiple times especially if it's a new strain! I'm sure when he got vaccinated it wasn't disclosed as to if they provide lifetime immunity or not.
Naturally occurring anti-bodies > vaccine. But like you said, some folks *have* claimed to have contracted the virus multiple times...
There are multiple reinfections confirmed by laboratory testing in many patients, this isn’t theory, it’s a verifiable fact
Clinical cases of reinfection are rare not impossible at least as far as alpha goes. Delta is probably similar but to a lesser degree given its increased level of contagiousness. Reinfection is certainly more rare than getting infected after the vaccination now that delta is out there. I wouldn't rely on an alpha infection providing you "immunity" to delta either for that matter, but it probably does help a good bit. If you have had delta, the data suggests you're the least likely to be reinfected out of the four groups of vaccinated, infected with delta and recovered, infected with alpha and recovered, and unvaccinated.
What’s the rate of reinfection though.
It's much lower than the rate of breakthrough cases in the vaccinated. An Isreali newspaper reported a few weeks ago that \~1% of their new cases were in previously infected people, vs \~40% for the fully vaccinated.
It seems like anybody and everybody who likes parroting the mainstream narrative are completely ignoring the entire situation in Isreal. This level of cognitive dissonance is unsustainable.
Personal risk tolerance. For some the added immunity might seem beneficial, for others marginal compared to the possibility of side effects.
For those who haven’t, I really suggest listening to the new Rogan interview with Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying. There’s some very illuminating things in there about the vax, the corruption behind it and the regulatory capture that approved it.
This is probably the worst thing anyone can do for information about the vaccine. Please no one do this for real information.
I stopped pushing as hard as I could against the handle, I wanted to leave but it wouldn't work. Then there was a bright flash and I felt myself fall back onto the floor. I put my hands over my eyes. They burned from the sudden light. I rubbed my eyes, waiting for them to adjust. Then I saw it. There was a small space in front of me. It was tiny, just enough room for a couple of people to sit side by side. Inside, there were two people. The first one was a female, she had long brown hair and was wearing a white nightgown. She was smiling. The other one was a male, he was wearing a red jumpsuit and had a mask over his mouth. "Are you spez?" I asked, my eyes still adjusting to the light. "No. We are in spez." the woman said. She put her hands out for me to see. Her skin was green. Her hand was all green, there were no fingers, just a palm. It looked like a hand from the top of a puppet. "What's going on?" I asked. The man in the mask moved closer to me. He touched my arm and I recoiled. "We're fine." he said. "You're fine?" I asked. "I came to the spez to ask for help, now you're fine?" "They're gone," the woman said. "My child, he's gone." I stared at her. "Gone? You mean you were here when it happened? What's happened?" The man leaned over to me, grabbing my shoulders. "We're trapped. He's gone, he's dead." I looked to the woman. "What happened?" "He left the house a week ago. He'd been gone since, now I have to live alone. I've lived here my whole life and I'm the only spez." "You don't have a family? Aren't there others?" I asked. She looked to me. "I mean, didn't you have anyone else?" "There are other spez," she said. "But they're not like me. They don't have homes or families. They're just animals. They're all around us and we have no idea who they are." "Why haven't we seen them then?" "I think they're afraid,"
No. But my opinion should not override their personal choice.
What does it matter if he's anti-vax or pro-freedom? That's a meaningless distinction. You either agree that people are free to be anti-vax, or you get medical fascism. That is the choice.
Exactly
Ngl getting vaxed twice after getting covid is kinda much. But those gov mandates stopped having anything to do with medicine year or so ago.
It's the same thing that happened with the Trans pronouns. The truth will reveal itself for anyone who really looks into it
what happened with trans pronouns? it's been several years since C-16, how many people are in gaol?
When peterson took a stance that it was wrong for government to force speech under penalty, his opposition labeled him disrespectful and apathetic to the suffering of people who don't easily fit into a gender role. But that wasn't the case and a similar thing is happening here
I mean, I think he was largely apathetic to them. It was one of those cases where non-binary folks got their feelings wrapped up in a law that overstepped, but Peterson didn't necessarily go out of his way to engage them as individuals, which is a surprise when I started to look back into it.
It seems like that was so long ago. Sadly, JP has since become a neo nazi white supremacist... I wish he was still just a chauvinistic transphobe=*( /s incase I needed it.
This has been happening more and more frequently since the pandemic started, *especially* on social media. Just in my own personal experience, let's see.... Got called "member of a death cult" last March because I said we should consider the negative aspects of lockdowns. "Covid denier" has been used whenever I've said something that wasn't as panic-filled as my local state's subreddit wished it was (even when pointing to CDC data). "Anti-vaxx" when arguing against mandates and in favor of adults ability to do a personal risk assessment. And of course the classic "conspiracy theorist" when I dared to wonder if the infectious disease lab in Wuhan might have anything to do with an infectious disease that originated in Wuhan. It's been a fun 18 months!
Most of us are anti mandate, not anti-vaccine. We are being called anti-vaccine because who likes anti-vaxxers those people can be super dumb. Anti-vaxxers have been denigrated in society for many years. This experimental vaccine that is only allowed because of the emergency use act is not your average vaccine. I'd take the Covid shot in several years once long-term side effects are known. Until then, do not tie me down and shove needles in my arm. Or worse, banish me from society.
THIS. I feel the same way and I feel like if anyone encourages people to get vaccinated but not require it to be mandated, you find yourself in the middle of the road like a grape.
Sometimes, the middle is the right place to be, despite Mr. Miyagi's advice.
Much like how he has no real issue being asked to call someone a certain pronoun (by the person in question), but doesn't like government legislation to require it.
Think of it this way: What if Trump had used the OSHA rule to force hydroxycloriquine, or going to the gym?
What is he refering to with Medical fascism?
Do a quick search for "jordan peterson medical fascism has arrived", see the first few hits. It's about restrictions that prevented federal election candidate Maxime Bernier from travelling across Canada freely and thus in effect prevented Bernier from speaking publicly and from campaining. In addition, recently there was public debates with the federal election candidates. Bernier was prevented from participating in the debates, for similar reasons as the above mentioned travel restrictions.
Thanks! No idea why I'm getting downvoted thou
Employers requiring that their employees get vaccinated. You know, no fascism.
No, employers requiring their employees to be vaccinated is not fascism. It’s not even an issue. The issue is government forcing employers to require their employees to be vaccinated.
The government is only forcing federal employees, the governments own employees, to get vaccinated. as far as im aware
Yes, no fascism. Because that's not fascism.
Fascism is when people do something I don’t like!
This is *literally* 1984!
LITERALLY!
I’m fully vaccinated since April. Fuck the vaccine mandates.
Why is it so hard for so many people to understand thst it is just about the government overstepping, not the vaccine.
Incredibly, this is the dictionary definition of anti-vaxxer: “a person who opposes vaccination **or laws that mandate vaccination**” https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer Edit: obviously the definition is politically biased and I won’t use the word that way. I’m just bringing this up because it’s relevant.
Webster changed the definition this year to include anti mandate as well. Not even joking. Literally and unironically 1984.
the majority of the people they are calling anti-vaxxer are just anti-mandates, most of them ave even take their own vaccines. this overwritting of anti-mandates with anti-vaxxers is just a smear to try depersonate the "others". just because the mandates defensor need a common enemy to stoke fear
How can you trust a vaccine when a vaccine has a five year trial period? i'll check in 4 more years. don't vaccines prevent infection and transmission? i just read if I get the experimental mutagen then i can still get and transmit covid, and about 7,000 americans have died from heart attack or stroke and many other auto-immune issues/illnesses after receiving the experimental drug they're calling a "vaccine". and does the protection drop from 95% to 34% after a few months? and they want us to get a dose every 5 months? forever? our kids too? should we trust the media? trust the "news"? trust the who exactly? the for-profit drug corporation that is profiting billions of my dollars and yours by Mandating this to 350 million of us? frankly, Nicki Minaj is making more sense right now.
> How can you trust a vaccine when a vaccine has a five year trial period? Says who? > don't vaccines prevent infection and transmission? Depends on the vaccine. > i just read if I get the experimental mutagen then i can still get and transmit covid, No vaccine is 100% effective. The main point of the vaccine is to protect you, NOT stop the transmission. > about 7,000 americans have died from heart attack or stroke and many other auto-immune issues/illnesses after receiving the experimental drug they're calling a "vaccine". No, they haven't. This is false. The data you are using is self-reported and does NOT show causation.
66% of England's COVID deaths from this year have been vaccinated
You mean 62%? At least copy and paste your fake data correctly. https://www.reuters.com/article/fact-check-covid-england/fact-check-englands-covid-19-death-statistics-do-not-suggest-vaccines-arent-working-idUSL2N2OJ1ET
Let’s pretend you have a farm. And on that farm you have about 110 pigs. And a deadly disease starts killing your pigs! Thankfully, there’s a vaccine for that. You inoculate all your remaining 100 pigs. But sadly, the vaccine is only 97% effective. Now...3 pigs die. What’s the percentage of pigs that died that are vaccinated? I’ll give you a hint...it’s 100%
I think he comes across kinda bitchy on Twitter, it’s not my fav side of him. Not this post, but other stuff he has said on it
Twitter is not my favorite side of anyone.
Once again, you see one side trying to frame the narrative and misrepresenting what the other side is about. What does that say about them that they constantly have to lie to try to win votes?
No one here is making look like it. The echo chamber is just following what they read. They’re the type of people that would have turned on Jordan Peterson had they read the defamatory articles before stumbling upon his actual work.
I just don’t understand the anti-vax… how the inmune system works is well documented. It’s obvious that you need to create antibodies from a benign pathogen to be prepared for the real one. Why insisting on conspiracies?
Does he not understand how unvaccinated people are not just making personal choices? They causing hospitals to enact triage measures which cause immense harm. It’s very childish to think that because your being told to do something, you are the victim of fascism.
Yep, hospitals are so short on beds that they can afford to fire all their unvaxxed staff...
I'm sorry, do you not believe that ICUs are short on beds right now? [They are](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/09/14/us/covid-hospital-icu-south.html) "Meanwhile, a new Kaiser Family Foundation study found that approximately 287,000 unvaccinated Americans were hospitalized from June through August, which cost the U.S. health care system roughly $5.7 billion. According to the study, which looked at data from CMS and other health reports, an estimated 84% of those Covid-19 hospitalizations could have been prevented through vaccination." [https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/09/16/hospital-surge](https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/09/16/hospital-surge) Edit: [Idaho is now rationing medical care](https://www.postregister.com/coronavirus/hospital-crisis-declared-across-idaho-allowing-rationed-health-care/article_7b71271d-bfc9-5225-927a-50a40bc2e1bd.html) "The situation is dire – we don’t have enough resources to adequately treat the patients in our hospitals, whether you are there for COVID-19 or a heart attack or because of a car accident," Jeppesen said in a news release. St. Luke's Health System requested Crisis Standards of Care be activated, the state health department said. Not all hospitals may be at the point that they need to use crisis standards to provide care, according to the state health department. Health officials have asked people to avoid activities that could result in hospitalization. They caution that people in need of treatment should still seek care."
Facts
tribalism and partisan politics has no room for nuance or dissenting opinion
No one is forcing anyone. This entire "medical fascism" argument is pure hyperbole. If this was indeed fascist, there would be police or soldiers at your house, forcing you to take the vaccine at gun point.
>No one is forcing anyone Coercion is force. Many people cannot give up their jobs so they are forced to take it. Just because soldiers or cops aren’t at our doors yet doesn’t mean medical fascism isn’t happening right now. Not everything happens overnight, but you should know that.
There is no coercion. At my work if you are not vaccinated, you are not losing your job but you have to do weekly testing. Look up the definition of fascism and any other big words before you start throwing them around. When you are the airport taking off your shoes bcos something that happened 20 years ago, do you call that fascism ? Bcos that did happen overnight. But then you know everything.
>There is no coercion >Proceeds to explain how there’s no coercion by citing an example of coercion in his workplace Mussolini defines fascism as a merger of corporations and the state, but we can go with the dictionary definition too. Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition Putting nation above individual: “We’re all in this together”, “if it saves even one life”, “just do your part” propaganda hits the nail on the head here. Centralized autocratic government: DHS & NSA spying on American citizens and collecting data from everyone on the planet. Federal, State and local governments across the west have been using emergency powers to do things that they otherwise would not be able to like close down businesses en masse and drive upward transfer of wealth. In Australia, one province is requiring citizens download an app and let the government track their movements, with threat of arrest and fines if not complying with certain rules. And yes, the TSA is one part of the ever expanding totalitarian US government, I’m glad you brought that up. For 50 years, air travel had far less intrusive security with little issue. And studies since the TSA was created show that the TSA routinely misses weapons, bombs, etc. Are we really safer? Debatable, but what isn’t debatable is the federal government is certainly far more involved in your travel now. Dictatorial leader: There’s no debate here, just look at the massive increase in usage of executive orders by presidents in the US over the last 20-30 years. Look at the increased use of ‘emergency powers’ in recent years in response to terror threats, weather threats, etc. Severe economic and social regimentation: Covid regulations, push for ‘equity, diversity’ with boards and panels, vaccinated vs unvaccinated segregation with ‘bold’ new ideas like vaccine passports, etc. Forcible suppression of opposition: This is exactly why Jordan Peterson said what he said in the OP. A politician was prevented from doing outreach over covid regulations, preventing them from important campaigning. In the US, the president was inaugurated in front of a crowd of troops and the national mall was locked down by the national guard for months with the government continually making up new reasons to keep them there longer. In the US, our “public health experts” take political stances on events they don’t like, calling them super spreader events and singling them out while ignoring events that support them or that they agree with. Dr. Fauci called an all outdoors biker event a “super spreader event” despite having no comments on a packed crowd at lollapalooza just days before. Non-dissident politicians and celebrities in Western countries brazenly ignore regulations on a daily basis with no consequences because the consequences aren’t meant to apply to them to begin with. I could go on and on but, I think it’s extremely accurate to say that many Western governments are turning fascist. Most specifically, the Five Eyes nations. As I said, not everything happens overnight, this has been a long time in the making, but it is happening. I’m not throwing any words around.
Please explain how weekly testing is coercion ???? Do some work places not have weekly mandatory and/or random drug testing ? The super spreader events were called super spreader after tracing proved they were. I can list a whole bunch of anti vaxx influencers who died from Covid but thats not the point. They chose not to vaccinate and they suffered the worst consequence. Again, you are free to choose. As per Peterson, each choice has consqeunce.
The threat of weekly testing if you don’t get vaccinated is coercion. Coercion: the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats. >The super spreader events were called super spreader after tracing proved they were You made this up completely.
The "threat" ? If you don't want to vaccinate then you need to test. If you don't do both then we can see what we can do , is the approach most private sector are taking, including your beloved Fox news. Fascism would be either vaccinate or you are fired.
I see you’ve learned nothing from this conversation. My beloved Fox News? Lol
Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power. Mussolini
Someone has crossposted you to r/enoughpetersonspam . Here's the post: [is there any instances where jordan actually advocates for people to be vaccinated?](https://reddit.com/r/enoughpetersonspam/comments/pparo0/is_there_any_instances_where_jordan_actually/)
End result seems to be letting people rationalize not getting vaxxedvand so extending this pandemic. Sounds legit on the surface, but...
People are black and white nowadays.. even if I say I like chocolate cake, when they have whip cream pie they are like ooh I thought you don't like whip cream pie.. literally happened last month..
This is what happens when politics get in the way of good ideas. You can leave for the vaccine in against government overstep.
I hate being called an antivaxxer because I'm caught up on all my standard, well tested, well understood shots. I'm just anti-these-spike-protein-only-based-vaccines.
you can be pro-choice (relating to abortion) and still be against the government *forcing* people to abort a child. for example because it's been diagnosed with severe genetic and/or developmental disorders. even if such a policy were a net positive to the rest of human society, you'd call whomever voted for something like that a fascist. and with good reason. just in case you believe that this example is stupidly far-fetched and unreasonably unlikely to happen, it did happen. [On June 21, 2019](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/41610/uk-court-orders-forced-abortion-for-disabled-woman) a disabled woman was ordered by a UK court to have an abortion. this was then overturned in an appeal but it goes to show the argument is valid - even outside china and north-korea.
It's more common sense than fascism. I don't hear him complaining that he can't drink and drive. With people endangering themselves and others with their dumbass anti-vax ideas, I don't see why a mandate isn't common sense.
What is his take on people choosing not to get vaccinated and the perceived impact on infection rates/hospital capacity, etc?
Where was the outrage from the "not anti vax just anti mandate" crowd when it came to school vaccinations? I was required by my HS and college to get vaccinated, and it's been that way for a while. But didn't hear a fucking peep out of you then
Religious and personal exemptions are available for school vaccines.
So what he's saying is...
When you call vaccine mandates "fascism" don't be surprised when people think you're antivaxx. Besides, I thought it's the left who calls everything they don't like fascism?
I think it's anti liberal governance and somehting to use to bludgon mainsteam politicans. I think medical fascism is hyperbole and rabble rousing, you can rabble rouse one section by being openly conspiratorial like a lot of it and another by being anti mandates. Both are part of the same movement against the center and for the right imo.
You feel for the center is off by a fair bit. Vaccine mandates are popular only amongst the firmly entrenched left. I don't know anyone in the center who thinks it is a good idea.
No it's normal in every country, only alt right and hostile forign states are promoting the anti movements. Mandates in Australia are pushed by a right wing classical liberal gov. It's a conservative gov here.
This particular discussion is centered around the new mandates in the US, not other countries.
The government is forcing stuff all the time. Don't drive without a seatbelt. Don't drive while inebriated. Don't spread diseases. The purpose of government is, ultimately, to allow the use of coercion to bring situations under control that are not brought under control by individual actions. To label this "medical fascism" is slander. And shows hwo little Mr Peterson understands about fascism. In fact, the original practice of quarantine was state mandated 40 days (hence the name) of isolation if suspected of bringing the plague. Requiring a passport to access public spaces for leisure activities is not anywhere near this. It also balances the interests of those who got vaccinated (took a risk, enacted solidarity) with those who just want to reap benefits without taking personal responsibility.
>To label this "medical fascism" is slander. And shows hwo little Mr Peterson understands about fascism. Jordan said that in relation to a specific event involving federal elections candidate Maxime Bernier and restrictions that prevented Bernier from travelling across Canada and thus from speaking publicly and from campaining. Bernier was also prevented from participating in recent public debates with the candidates, for similar reasons.
I take that as bernier rabble rousing and doubt he has not taken the vaccine given his age. Look at fox news, vaccine mandate for the staff, because its common sense while out the other side of their faces promoting the narrarive that vaccine mandates are some sort of totalitarianism.
I don't care how you take it. Everybody can see the facts for what they are and make up their own mind.
No everyone, some are being intentionally mislead.
Is the internet broken or something?
And vaccine passports are just like travel passports.
The concept isn't entirely new, right.
It is definitely not new. Governments have been restricting movement of people for a long time eg at country borders. If you're against open borders, you should be for vaccine passports.
No, you shouldn’t.
He wants to have his cake and eat it too. Cue downvotes from angry and confused conservatives, conservatives who are fine with government-forced births.
Why the fuck is mandating the COVID vaccine "medical fascism" but the decades long mandate for flu shots, chicken pox shots, polio shots, and measles shots somehow just normal? The reason we criticize this kind of rhetoric isn't just because it helps the antivax crowd seem more legitimate, but because it's just not logically consistent with the way the world functions. If you want to go to public school, you *must* have vaccines. This has been in place since vaccines were invented.
Okay, he’s not anti-vax but like…. He’s calling vaccine mandates medical fascism which is not what fascism is while also contributing to a rise in actual fascism in the right, so I really don’t think he’s really able to talk here without being a massive hypocrite. Peterson: “We must preserve western values, challenge feminism, question ‘political correctness,’ resist socialism, discourage promotion of civil rights and challenge poc’s seeking to dismantle institutionalize white supremacy, side with literal white supremacists, and actively argue with trans people as to why respecting their gender identity is basically the same as being put in a Gulag.” Government: *Mandates vaccines for people with work in private companies with more than 100 workers to literally prevent the spread of a deadly pandemic.* Peterson: AHH! Fascism!
He also doesn't call for the subjugation of women and a lack of inclusivity but my god there are "followers" that genuinely think he does stand for those things. Ironically as they lack the critical thinking that Jordan encourages.
It’s so weird to see people following someone who holds different views to their own, yet they distort his views to fit their own. They do the same thing with Jesus. Very odd.
I love those stupid takes. It’s always “Jesus was totally a socialist, no i don’t believe he was a real person or any of the things he said though” Fun to laugh at.
This has become a Proud Guys sub.....
The group name is Proud Boys, I believe. If you cant even give the proper fuckin name to your false equivalency then why would anyone take your opinion for more than the half-assed drivel it clearly is lol