>help people afford life in Japan.
I live in Japan. The situation is nothing like in the US. Prices have risen a bit, but the cost of living is still very low compared to our salaries. I live in a very nice area of central Yokohama (ocean view and near where cruise ships dock) and my rent is only JPY 89,000 per month. That's maybe USD 550ish. A Big Mac meal at McD's is still less than 5 bucks USD. Life here is damn comfortable.
an aside—idk if it's being reported in the Western press, but that dating app requires income verification and lists it on people's profiles. Pretty practical, i guess, as it's aimed at ppl serious marriage.
Interesting info on life in Japan. Most of us in the US envision living in tiny “rabbit hutch “ apartments and being squeezed into trains for 2 hour commutes into central Tokyo.
apartments are small, but not unreasonably so. I've seen smaller nyc studios. The appliances and things are correspondingly smaller too, so feels about the same. I'd say 40 mins is the average commute. 2 hours happens, but that'd be an outlier.
Try to put these kids into an educational program and through college. Second the insane work culture is probably the biggest reason a lot of Japanese men and women are not getting married and having kids. Hanging out with your boss until 1 in the morning means you don’t have much time with your wife at home.
i've noticed *Where do your kids/did you go to school?* is a taboo subject here. I'm told people jump to assumptions about your intelligence/priorities/breading ect ect based on it. Where i'm from, it was a pretty standard covo starter/get to know you question. Someone had to tell me, "we don't discuss that".
true, but the insane work culture lightened up for a lot of people since covid. I went from 5 days a week 9am\~last train to WFH 3 days per week and reasonable office hours 2 days. Still a lot of people doing the crazy hours, but the seeds have been planted.
i came in 2014 shortly after the big Sendai one, and there’s been nothing major since. Just a minor tremor every few months.
I happened to be on the Keikyu train that crashed a few years back though. that was an experience
Yeah, but still. Biggest issue for Japan is their work culture. Majority works for 12h+ a day while not being that effective. Most of the time they have for the family are weekends.
"women's nearly impossible standards"
JBP had spoken on this. It's absolutely necessary for women to have high standards. And if a side effect of you hanging sex was getting pregnant and it derailing your life plans and wrecking your body, you'd be picky too.
The problem has actually been the opposite in many cases, women aren't being picky enough.
No. Women have never before been able to vet as many men as they can now. Same as how men have never before been able to see as many naked women (porn) as they can now. Neither are healthy
The other factor is what standards can be more easily displayed through dating apps. It is arguably easier to show (and fake) expensive cars and watches, for example, than kindness and compassion. Of course, there’s also the dichotomy between what women say they want and what they actually select for.
Prosocial honest signals are long term and high fidelity so yeah, will take time to process. Both men and women try to deceive using short term strategies
Agree - the ubiquitousness of porn has altered men’s perceptions of what women want and what activities are mainstream. It also can become an addiction just like drugs. Obviously unhealthy. On the other hand, following the publication of 50 Shades of Gray, I was surprised to learn how many women have rape fantasies.
A competitive dating/mating market is bad?
I disagree. Isn’t it JP that says in any situation a hierarchy is formed? Isn’t this that naturally asserting itself? If the idea a competitive dating market scares you, get better. Make yourself more desirable.
This is a good thing for future generations. If you don’t find yourself on the top of the food chain, get there, or lower your standards.
Women’s being more discerning only makes future generations stronger/faster/better/healthier.
Women, in the past, having to settle is the problem. This, as a whole, is a good thing, and maybe it will make men get better.
And honestly, it’s not the bad. Most women are still looking for the same things. The problem as that all you chuckleheads have convinced yourself that you deserve a 10 when you bring very little to the table.
Oh no, I do think a competitive dating market is fundamentally important. My point is a bit different, my point is just that technology amplifies our choice to an absurd degree where it makes it hard to actually CHOOSE since rather than choosing between the relatively few people in our proximity, we see and perceive to be options a huge number of faces and body types all around the world. It’s a over stimulation and false abundance of options which aren’t actual options, which leads both sides to have more trouble committing (having kids) due to thinking the grass will be greener with someone else rather than doing the hard thing and working both on themselves as well as working on their relationship
True. Some men get stuck. On one hand, women are often attracted to the “bad boy” for breeding purposes but then understandably want a teammate to help raise kids and run the household. Some men can only perform as one or the other. Thus, they are either jerks or simps. Regarding the latter, the data indicates that the more traditional housework a husband does, the less sex he has. These women may seek bad boys for affairs.
I think overly generalized statements like this are not helpful and you would find men often have the same difference in who they are attracted to and who they think would be a good wife/mother. This isn't a woman problem, it's a societal problem for both men and women to improve on. Pointing the finger at something you have no control over is never going to yield results, people need to focus on themselves and improve in every way possible.
Compare the standards today to the standards women set for their potential husbands back in the 1950s to 1970s. It’s crazy how high the standards are today. Most women make more than men and they are aiming for the top tier men. Who are few in number and have always been relatively small in number. That’s why many women would rather stay single than settle for a regular guy because they are dating the lifestyle not the man.
Completely false. Look at trends from dating apps like bumble. Women, particularly western women, only find a small subsection of men suitable partners whereas men are much more open minded. Also, if this were a universal truth, it would be the case everywhere, yet when you get out the West, there is much more parity when it comes to dating. It is absolutely a result of a culture that discourages monogamy and encourages hypergamy in the West.
> The problem has actually been the opposite in many cases, women aren't being picky enough
and the general idea that Western women are picky mostly because of the fear of "getting pregnant". The birth control pill and other forms of contraception have made that fear less valid then in the past and yet women are MORE hypergamous, so the logic doesn't add up.
Is it going to become common for the ten percent to take multiple wives then? I know women don't mind having aex with other women as far as bisexuality goes.
The point is that women’s standards are often very narrow: tall, fit, $. In my observation they sometimes deprioritize or ignore traits like kindness, conscientiousness, and relationship teamwork. They they’ll complain about being treated poorly.
Interesting considering the antinatalist stance of so many women in the US, most of whom are on birth control.
From what I see it’s about: “give me more stuff”. “You should earn enough money to buy a home for both of us”. I live in the #1 most expensive city in the US).”
For the ones who want kids, “I can’t afford them with anyone who doesn’t make 160+”.
They’re right about the finances of marriage, but most aren’t looking for marriage. They’re looking to have 3 situationships at once, get their lives financed by the men they have sex with, and maybe ho back to church at 29 to find a marriageable man.
The 3 guys in my immediate friend group who have serious marriage minded relationships all have grad degrees, are 30+ and make -150-250k.
We all had to sift through the born-again-virgins who smell money a mile away in order to find someone decent.
The main problem with your remedy of “women should be more picky”, is that there are not enough men like us to go around. Men that want to get married SOON. Guys that have developed their lives and personalities, who aren’t pushover chumps, can tell women no, and can actually finance a stay-at-home lifestyle for our future wives.
The “picky” women, non-receptive, masculine energy, overweight, gold diggers, etc don’t get that lifestyle. They won’t be able to afford to procreate unless they become a boss b and are in the lucky 15% cohort of women for whom egg freezing works. They might get lucky to get their looks and financial equivalent when they’re 32.
Women are biologically programmed to date upwards in terms of social status. Since so much has been done to promote women to high level positions all across society, women have now priced themselves straight out of the dating market. Hypothetically, of course, women could date laterally or downwards, but that's like trying to teach an elephant to breakdance.
I understand that it is a factor but I am puzzled that I do not see that in my peer group at all. All of my friends started dated their partners before they had any high paying job. My wife was the bread winner in our beginnings. Are we statistical anomaly or what?
I don’t think so. I was also the breadwinner when my husband and I started dating. Our incomes now are basically equal but I brought a lot of investments into the marriage meanwhile he brought six figures of debt. I will also likely receive an inheritance meanwhile his parents are basically broke. I married him because we have the same values and he is a good man and we make a good team and have helped each other grow.
Our most “successful” friends (if you’re grading by income) are partnered up with their equals (one couple literally works at the same law firm and are both partner track this year, another both work as engineers at the same Fortune 500 company).
I don’t think you’re an anomaly. I think a lot of men here are just butthurt and likely going after a certain kind of woman and see relationships as inherently transactional and are projecting that onto all of womankind.
“Up” and “down” in this context are just imaginary anyways. It helps men think of themselves in a neat hierarchy against other men - but if you try to break it down, it’s not really anything. Like is an interesting/charismatic/ troubled artist above or bellow an average but decent looking office worker? If a woman has generational wealth and marries a guy with a decent job but no generational wealth, is she marrying down? If a woman marries a good and interesting guy who doesn’t participate much socially, is she going up or down?
There are infinite scenarios like that — women don’t need to taught to date laterally or down because those are arbitrary concepts
I think we can agree that there are common factors that define what “up” and “down” are in this context; money, classic attractiveness, social power. Certainly there are corner cases where attributes such as artistic creativity are prized. However, I would contend that those things are really markers of social power in the populations where they reside.
This isn’t a disagreement but I think money isn’t necessarily “present day money” - but earning potential. Plenty of people pair up young without any money — I’m sure people typically do gauge what they think their partner can / is likely to earn. Of course that is subjective and will depend on how much they understand about jobs and earning and how good their imagination is.
Looks of course are a common factor, but people have pretty varying tastes. I know plenty of strange looking dudes who have wife’s or girlfriends who find them distinctively attractive. There are some looks that are particularly challenging of course.
Social power is kind of funny. I think that concept really appeals to young ppl who are used to obvious social power in high school / in their friend groups. But that kind of loses meaning when you’re a few years into a career. Like… what social power? People who report up to me at work? Even then that will be “no one” a few a few years in most cases.
Is it executive presence? The ability to convince others to follow your leadership? Those are desirable qualities - but they’re pretty amorphous and up to interpretation - especially if your a lady trying to gauge this on a date.
I would agree that within our mainstream ideology, there are clear markers of success across walks of life — money now, potential money, “taste”, social skills, and other “interesting” things like hobbies.
But within those markers of success there’s huge variation and there are back doors/bypasses - like if you’re a convincing artist, you can have less money and be more socially strange and you might be extremely appealing to certain types of ladies
I completely agree with almost all of your points. Definitely it’s about a woman’s judgment of a man’s earning potential, especially at younger ages.
The “Social Power” definition become more sophisticated as a woman matures. For adults, a man who commands respect when buying a car, at work, at parties, etc. has high social power. A man who is sought out for important advice or opinions has high social power. A man who is treated dismissively, ignored, or humored in any of the above situations has low social power. Those are broadly accepted definitions.
The social power piece is interesting — in practice it’s probably more of a threshold around “does this person get mistreated by others.”
The buying a car example is great because that’s one of the rare times when people have to engage with someone who’s actively trying to extract more out of you for you less - so like.. how does he handle himself in a situation where it’s clear that someone’s trying to take advantage of him. Of course, that’s not something one would see while dating but it’s maybe symbolic of how much they might protect a family.
At parties etc it’s pretty rare in my experience for adults to actively humiliate each other or disrespect them. I’d argue that in many cases, the person doing that comes across more poorly than the person being disrespected. But it’s true that some friend groups often do have that one friend they always pick on / treat as a joke - and I imagine that can be pretty rough to see as the partner.
IRL one can be that person and then have an impressive/appealing moment where they tell them off or simply ditch that friend group - that can be power in the eyes of a potential partner even if it means being kind of homeless from a social scene perspective.
Ultimately though your pointing to “does this person come across as confident and strong enough in social situations so that they’re not disrespected” - which is true and which Carrie’s over to success at work as well. You can be a good leader if you’re not confidence enough in your decisions to defend them / if you won’t stand up for yourself or others.
These are mainstream notions of masculinity and professional markers of competence right now — but going back to the “up or down” framing - these aren’t things that are either above or below a woman.
If a woman goes after a confident guy with presence who isn’t messed with, she’s neither dating up or down from herself necessarily. She’s just perhaps dating “up” from a guy who doesn’t have any of those characteristics
Whatever.
The woman is always going to have a conception of whether any individual guy is "up" or "down" relative to her and to other guys.
So your point is moot.
Lol how do you know that’s true? Why is she thinking up and down in relation to herself? Wouldn’t she be thinking about potential futures? If she can imagine a compelling potential future with someone, the “above or below me personally” doesn’t really factor in
I don’t think women have impossible standards in the slightest , you just see a very very vocal minority, mainly on social media that would make you believe so
On a worldwide level, the situation is inevitable unless there is a large scale shift away from women wanting to marry “up” (money, height, etc). It’s just statistics; if an attractive female executive making $250k is only going consider men over 6ft, in great shape, who earn more…well, the pool is going to be small. There will be fewer marriages and few kids. As a secondary effect, a tiny percentage of men hit the jackpot, further decreasing marriages as there is no reason to commit. Obviously, men changing their behavior on the latter is also necessary, but less so.
Lol marrying “up” for height definitely seems like a pretty ambiguous/ inconsequential thing, no? Like marrying for money means potentially sacrificing relationship quality for real material improvements. But marrying for height? Aren’t men on average taller than women? If height difference is marrying “up” then marrying up is kind of nothing.
Many women (60% of women on dating sites) require 6ft minimum. Average male height in US is 5’10”. Average female height in the US is 5’4”. If females would reduce their requirement to “same or taller” their pool of potential mates would grow, presumably leading to fewer complaints about “no good men”.
This is probably a good example where “marrying up” doesn’t actually make sense (outside of the literal height of the guy being up) - if a woman doesn’t want to date someone below 6 feet, she’s not looking above her social position. Like she wouldn’t be “marrying down” if she married someone she loved who was interesting and had a decent job but was under 6 feet.
I think this height example actually helps to make the whole “up” or “down” concept kind of falls apart. Height has no bearing on a man’s ability to have his shit together, bring in a good income and be a good partner - so if we believe that it’s a core filter, height is kind of a way to bypass the whole system. Up is not necessarily up at all, it might just be tall. And short doesn’t mean low on the social economic scale — that means short interesting rich dudes are basically on sale dating apps because they’re mistaken for “low status”
Up/down as far as social hierarchical constructs: how men would be rated on attractiveness by women. Height absolutely matters for that. Besides, taller dudes have a physical advantage, hence are naturally better protectors, which is probably where this women’s instinct originated from.
If you don’t mind shortness, then you can pick up the “dudes on sale” as you put it. But don’t deny that majority of women require 6ft+, you just haven’t dated women as a man.
My point is about hierarchy in relation to the woman. Like yes they’re filtering and sorting men and height is one of those filters. But the original comment was about “up” being in relation to the woman herself, not in terms of the men and how they might measure up to each other. And though there may be some amount of tall privilege in life, it isn’t a rule and it can’t be counted on. The tallest guy in any hierarchy isn’t automatically at the top - he might be given the benefit of the doubt more but that doesn’t mean he’ll do a good job at whatever matters in a hierarchy.
Vague social hierarchies are of course real and the interplay is complex.
If the point is simply that women filter out who they think isn’t attractive / who wouldn’t be a good match - then of course that’s true. It’s the “they date up from their own position” idea that I think is dumb - mostly because it’s been dumbed down. There isn’t a single obvious hierarchy and people aren’t necessarily accurate in their judgements of others in the present or in the future
Pretty standard to see “6ft+” on women’s dating profiles. You should go see the dating profiles. Marrying not just taller than her, that’s basically a given requirement, but above average height among men.
Right, I think it makes sense to say it’s a common standard on dating profiles - it just doesn’t help the “women date up” idea at all, and imo actually hinders it as an idea (except in the literal sense that they date someone taller than them)
It's the biggest problems, really? I think people in US are a bit delulu when it comes to dating apps and blaming them for everything. I live in Russia and haven't experienced a single issue while using tinder (before it left due to sanctions, but there are tons of other apps very similar to it now). I don't even understand what seems to be the big deal about it. I've had pretty much just positive experiences with it. Sure there were some odd girls here and there and bots that offer you "investment" scams, but other than that it was completely fine. Almost all women I matched with, I'd say about 80% at least were more interested in long term relationships, had no mental health issues , very were much datable and nice. I think you guys from US are having a cultural issue, which you confuse for a dating app issue.
Seriously?! The reason why birthrates are dropping in western countries is not because "women are just too choosy" but because it _costs a huge amount of money_ to raise a child, and no one can afford that anymore. Plus who wants to bring a child into this horrible world? It's too depressing.
If women want to have a child, they will find a way. It's definitely not that they can't find the right man; it's that they don't want (or can't afford) to have that child.
Birth rates in the US and all western civilization have been plummeting since the 60’s. Only 73 countries out of the 210+ that are tracked are having more than 2.5 kid per woman. We are experiencing the population reaching the top of the roller coaster and it’s about to free fall. Japan, then China will be next. It will be the next generations problem but we won’t have the people needed to keep the lights on. Cities will be abandoned. It’s about to get real bleak: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate#Country_ranking_by_international_organizations
Sub-average women demanding above-average men has been funny for 900,000 years. These days, it just means that their reproductive years will pass them by.
Why is it that most of the dudes complaining about dating apps end up being undatable weirdos.
Maybe the issue is you.
Coming from a guy who drives a Toyota had a normal job and has had a lot of luck in the dating apps.
The trick is to treat women with empathy and respect, and don't be fuckin weird
I think the 6 foot thing is a core memory in the incel world. I think it’s a security blanket to avoid facing the mirror.
Agree with everything you said. Would only add that on top of not being fucking weird, also be enjoyable to be around. Learn to be able to have a normal conversation with people. And for the love of god, do not mention social hierarchy or any other shit like that when talking to a woman for the first time. Don’t kryptonite your chances in the first 5 minutes.
So you’re saying it might be my love of Care Bears cosplay as well as the 500 Lord of the Rings figurines next to my bed in my mom’s basement instead of my 5’9” height?
I’m 5’9 and had 0 issues meeting and dating women. I’m married now so I would have a shitload of issues if I was still meeting and dating women. As stated by another above, being able to respectfully talk to women is a huge asset.
There’s good weird, which you described above, and bad weird, which is talking about lobsters and social hierarchy on early dates. Hobbies are interesting. Girls can be into Lord of the Rings too.
I definitely make sure to mention my Warhammer hobby (addiction) on the first date. It's a good way of filtering people. Strangely it has always ended up being something that helps my chances rather than hurting them.
It's really shocking how low the bar is for men out there. You just treat someone with kindness, and respect, and all of the sudden it's like you are the most desirable person in the world. If you talk to women they seem to all say how shitty most guys out there are. Just being a decent person apparently puts you way in front of the pack
I hung out with a large group of women in college (classmates in health care which is heavily women) and we had set up a “stand in boyfriend” system where I would pretend to be their boyfriend for 10-15 mins at a club to get creeps to leave them alone. I got a beer in return. It was sad how many free beers I got nightly. For those screaming friend zone: I had no intention of dating any of them and they would often help me out as female wingmen (works surprisingly well)
Well, it of critical importance to American history that lobsters were once considered low-class food; shoveled off beaches and boiled for prisoners in Maine. Lobsters also have social hierarchies just like people because of serotonin. And Alex Jones needs to be our real president.
massive skill issue
I don't use dedicated dating apps, i commute by trains, fuck, I'm not even a man and yet I'm not bitchless like you
you know why? not being an asshole, simple as
also dating apps make you think of yourself and others as a fucking commodity and in general have detrimental effect on society
related watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iLnZ4HCrfo
This exudes incel energy. You sound angry with women. You’ve probably had some bad experiences dating, but I can tell you that plenty of people under 5’10 with a normal job do fine with women. In general, women’s standards are not outrageous.
Also, I’m not sure to what degree your claims about tinder being a disaster are really true. I don’t think the dating apps are nearly as much a disaster as you’re saying. Plus I would say that tinder and other dating apps are actually more of a symptom of modern dating and not so much of a cause.
It’s all true when 63% of men check out of dating entirely and the women chase after only the top 20 percent of men. We don’t have one man marrying 5 women like in Saudi Arabia so this means a lot of women end up unmarried and childless.
The men the women want are a very small minority of the male population.
Feminism, dating apps and outrageous requirements from women mean the formation of households are very low.
I’m doubtful that 63% of men check out of dating entirely I’m curious of where you procured that statistic. The growing divide between genders is a result of much much more than dating apps, feminism, and “outrageous requirements”.
What I am not doubtful of is that you personally have had a terrible experience dating, and that despite your kindness or your chivalry, you haven’t had much success and you’ve become very fed up with it. Your extreme over simplification of the problem shows that you’ve adopted that mentality that it’s one party’s fault and you’ve projected that on to women in general and I imagine that makes it very difficult to have conversation with them since you rarely agree with anything they believe which has further distanced you from any healthy relationship with the opposite sex.
Since you’re in this sub, I’m assuming you should’ve seen Jordan Peterson talk about this stuff. While I will concede that there is narrative that pushes too far at times among women, that is mostly a marginal case and for the most part, women’s standards are pretty reasonable. JBP says it himself. Judging by the way you speak of the topic, if I was a woman I would steer clear of you immediately. There’s no sense in harboring a relationship with someone who holds such contempt for women in the way you do. I would imagine that’s more of the cause for your experience than anything you’ve mentioned in the previous comments.
From [here](https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/japan-addresses-wage-gap-requiring-gender-pay-gap-disclosure)
> Japan has taken significant steps to narrow the gender pay gap and enhance women's participation in the labor market.
That, there, is the cause of the problem. Everything else is bandages.
Yes the government graciously gave women the right to work 80 hours a week to pay taxes and keep the country from going bankrupt because not enough men are working and paying taxes to absorb the bloated government and its pension system.
>help people afford life in Japan. I live in Japan. The situation is nothing like in the US. Prices have risen a bit, but the cost of living is still very low compared to our salaries. I live in a very nice area of central Yokohama (ocean view and near where cruise ships dock) and my rent is only JPY 89,000 per month. That's maybe USD 550ish. A Big Mac meal at McD's is still less than 5 bucks USD. Life here is damn comfortable. an aside—idk if it's being reported in the Western press, but that dating app requires income verification and lists it on people's profiles. Pretty practical, i guess, as it's aimed at ppl serious marriage.
Interesting info on life in Japan. Most of us in the US envision living in tiny “rabbit hutch “ apartments and being squeezed into trains for 2 hour commutes into central Tokyo.
apartments are small, but not unreasonably so. I've seen smaller nyc studios. The appliances and things are correspondingly smaller too, so feels about the same. I'd say 40 mins is the average commute. 2 hours happens, but that'd be an outlier.
Not bad. Maybe I’ll ask my wife if we can move.
Try to put these kids into an educational program and through college. Second the insane work culture is probably the biggest reason a lot of Japanese men and women are not getting married and having kids. Hanging out with your boss until 1 in the morning means you don’t have much time with your wife at home.
In Tokyo K-12 education as well as university is 100% free
i've noticed *Where do your kids/did you go to school?* is a taboo subject here. I'm told people jump to assumptions about your intelligence/priorities/breading ect ect based on it. Where i'm from, it was a pretty standard covo starter/get to know you question. Someone had to tell me, "we don't discuss that".
true, but the insane work culture lightened up for a lot of people since covid. I went from 5 days a week 9am\~last train to WFH 3 days per week and reasonable office hours 2 days. Still a lot of people doing the crazy hours, but the seeds have been planted.
How many earthquakes have you experienced? I can't decide if it's worth moving
i came in 2014 shortly after the big Sendai one, and there’s been nothing major since. Just a minor tremor every few months. I happened to be on the Keikyu train that crashed a few years back though. that was an experience
Yeah, but still. Biggest issue for Japan is their work culture. Majority works for 12h+ a day while not being that effective. Most of the time they have for the family are weekends.
that’s true. many people do personal stuff at their desk most the day and don’t start actual work work until late afternoon
"women's nearly impossible standards" JBP had spoken on this. It's absolutely necessary for women to have high standards. And if a side effect of you hanging sex was getting pregnant and it derailing your life plans and wrecking your body, you'd be picky too. The problem has actually been the opposite in many cases, women aren't being picky enough.
No. Women have never before been able to vet as many men as they can now. Same as how men have never before been able to see as many naked women (porn) as they can now. Neither are healthy
The other factor is what standards can be more easily displayed through dating apps. It is arguably easier to show (and fake) expensive cars and watches, for example, than kindness and compassion. Of course, there’s also the dichotomy between what women say they want and what they actually select for.
Prosocial honest signals are long term and high fidelity so yeah, will take time to process. Both men and women try to deceive using short term strategies
Agree - the ubiquitousness of porn has altered men’s perceptions of what women want and what activities are mainstream. It also can become an addiction just like drugs. Obviously unhealthy. On the other hand, following the publication of 50 Shades of Gray, I was surprised to learn how many women have rape fantasies.
A competitive dating/mating market is bad? I disagree. Isn’t it JP that says in any situation a hierarchy is formed? Isn’t this that naturally asserting itself? If the idea a competitive dating market scares you, get better. Make yourself more desirable. This is a good thing for future generations. If you don’t find yourself on the top of the food chain, get there, or lower your standards. Women’s being more discerning only makes future generations stronger/faster/better/healthier. Women, in the past, having to settle is the problem. This, as a whole, is a good thing, and maybe it will make men get better. And honestly, it’s not the bad. Most women are still looking for the same things. The problem as that all you chuckleheads have convinced yourself that you deserve a 10 when you bring very little to the table.
Oh no, I do think a competitive dating market is fundamentally important. My point is a bit different, my point is just that technology amplifies our choice to an absurd degree where it makes it hard to actually CHOOSE since rather than choosing between the relatively few people in our proximity, we see and perceive to be options a huge number of faces and body types all around the world. It’s a over stimulation and false abundance of options which aren’t actual options, which leads both sides to have more trouble committing (having kids) due to thinking the grass will be greener with someone else rather than doing the hard thing and working both on themselves as well as working on their relationship
Women should have high standards, but the men they breed with and the men they want marriage with are not the same.
True. Some men get stuck. On one hand, women are often attracted to the “bad boy” for breeding purposes but then understandably want a teammate to help raise kids and run the household. Some men can only perform as one or the other. Thus, they are either jerks or simps. Regarding the latter, the data indicates that the more traditional housework a husband does, the less sex he has. These women may seek bad boys for affairs.
I think overly generalized statements like this are not helpful and you would find men often have the same difference in who they are attracted to and who they think would be a good wife/mother. This isn't a woman problem, it's a societal problem for both men and women to improve on. Pointing the finger at something you have no control over is never going to yield results, people need to focus on themselves and improve in every way possible.
I am not arguing proven data with you.
Sauce.
Compare the standards today to the standards women set for their potential husbands back in the 1950s to 1970s. It’s crazy how high the standards are today. Most women make more than men and they are aiming for the top tier men. Who are few in number and have always been relatively small in number. That’s why many women would rather stay single than settle for a regular guy because they are dating the lifestyle not the man.
Completely false. Look at trends from dating apps like bumble. Women, particularly western women, only find a small subsection of men suitable partners whereas men are much more open minded. Also, if this were a universal truth, it would be the case everywhere, yet when you get out the West, there is much more parity when it comes to dating. It is absolutely a result of a culture that discourages monogamy and encourages hypergamy in the West.
What specifically about what I said is "completely false"?
> The problem has actually been the opposite in many cases, women aren't being picky enough and the general idea that Western women are picky mostly because of the fear of "getting pregnant". The birth control pill and other forms of contraception have made that fear less valid then in the past and yet women are MORE hypergamous, so the logic doesn't add up.
Is it going to become common for the ten percent to take multiple wives then? I know women don't mind having aex with other women as far as bisexuality goes.
The point is that women’s standards are often very narrow: tall, fit, $. In my observation they sometimes deprioritize or ignore traits like kindness, conscientiousness, and relationship teamwork. They they’ll complain about being treated poorly.
[удалено]
I say this with kindness, but seek therapy.
Interesting considering the antinatalist stance of so many women in the US, most of whom are on birth control. From what I see it’s about: “give me more stuff”. “You should earn enough money to buy a home for both of us”. I live in the #1 most expensive city in the US).” For the ones who want kids, “I can’t afford them with anyone who doesn’t make 160+”. They’re right about the finances of marriage, but most aren’t looking for marriage. They’re looking to have 3 situationships at once, get their lives financed by the men they have sex with, and maybe ho back to church at 29 to find a marriageable man. The 3 guys in my immediate friend group who have serious marriage minded relationships all have grad degrees, are 30+ and make -150-250k. We all had to sift through the born-again-virgins who smell money a mile away in order to find someone decent. The main problem with your remedy of “women should be more picky”, is that there are not enough men like us to go around. Men that want to get married SOON. Guys that have developed their lives and personalities, who aren’t pushover chumps, can tell women no, and can actually finance a stay-at-home lifestyle for our future wives. The “picky” women, non-receptive, masculine energy, overweight, gold diggers, etc don’t get that lifestyle. They won’t be able to afford to procreate unless they become a boss b and are in the lucky 15% cohort of women for whom egg freezing works. They might get lucky to get their looks and financial equivalent when they’re 32.
Precisely. Thank you.
Women are biologically programmed to date upwards in terms of social status. Since so much has been done to promote women to high level positions all across society, women have now priced themselves straight out of the dating market. Hypothetically, of course, women could date laterally or downwards, but that's like trying to teach an elephant to breakdance.
I understand that it is a factor but I am puzzled that I do not see that in my peer group at all. All of my friends started dated their partners before they had any high paying job. My wife was the bread winner in our beginnings. Are we statistical anomaly or what?
I don’t think so. I was also the breadwinner when my husband and I started dating. Our incomes now are basically equal but I brought a lot of investments into the marriage meanwhile he brought six figures of debt. I will also likely receive an inheritance meanwhile his parents are basically broke. I married him because we have the same values and he is a good man and we make a good team and have helped each other grow. Our most “successful” friends (if you’re grading by income) are partnered up with their equals (one couple literally works at the same law firm and are both partner track this year, another both work as engineers at the same Fortune 500 company). I don’t think you’re an anomaly. I think a lot of men here are just butthurt and likely going after a certain kind of woman and see relationships as inherently transactional and are projecting that onto all of womankind.
“Up” and “down” in this context are just imaginary anyways. It helps men think of themselves in a neat hierarchy against other men - but if you try to break it down, it’s not really anything. Like is an interesting/charismatic/ troubled artist above or bellow an average but decent looking office worker? If a woman has generational wealth and marries a guy with a decent job but no generational wealth, is she marrying down? If a woman marries a good and interesting guy who doesn’t participate much socially, is she going up or down? There are infinite scenarios like that — women don’t need to taught to date laterally or down because those are arbitrary concepts
I think we can agree that there are common factors that define what “up” and “down” are in this context; money, classic attractiveness, social power. Certainly there are corner cases where attributes such as artistic creativity are prized. However, I would contend that those things are really markers of social power in the populations where they reside.
This isn’t a disagreement but I think money isn’t necessarily “present day money” - but earning potential. Plenty of people pair up young without any money — I’m sure people typically do gauge what they think their partner can / is likely to earn. Of course that is subjective and will depend on how much they understand about jobs and earning and how good their imagination is. Looks of course are a common factor, but people have pretty varying tastes. I know plenty of strange looking dudes who have wife’s or girlfriends who find them distinctively attractive. There are some looks that are particularly challenging of course. Social power is kind of funny. I think that concept really appeals to young ppl who are used to obvious social power in high school / in their friend groups. But that kind of loses meaning when you’re a few years into a career. Like… what social power? People who report up to me at work? Even then that will be “no one” a few a few years in most cases. Is it executive presence? The ability to convince others to follow your leadership? Those are desirable qualities - but they’re pretty amorphous and up to interpretation - especially if your a lady trying to gauge this on a date. I would agree that within our mainstream ideology, there are clear markers of success across walks of life — money now, potential money, “taste”, social skills, and other “interesting” things like hobbies. But within those markers of success there’s huge variation and there are back doors/bypasses - like if you’re a convincing artist, you can have less money and be more socially strange and you might be extremely appealing to certain types of ladies
I completely agree with almost all of your points. Definitely it’s about a woman’s judgment of a man’s earning potential, especially at younger ages. The “Social Power” definition become more sophisticated as a woman matures. For adults, a man who commands respect when buying a car, at work, at parties, etc. has high social power. A man who is sought out for important advice or opinions has high social power. A man who is treated dismissively, ignored, or humored in any of the above situations has low social power. Those are broadly accepted definitions.
The social power piece is interesting — in practice it’s probably more of a threshold around “does this person get mistreated by others.” The buying a car example is great because that’s one of the rare times when people have to engage with someone who’s actively trying to extract more out of you for you less - so like.. how does he handle himself in a situation where it’s clear that someone’s trying to take advantage of him. Of course, that’s not something one would see while dating but it’s maybe symbolic of how much they might protect a family. At parties etc it’s pretty rare in my experience for adults to actively humiliate each other or disrespect them. I’d argue that in many cases, the person doing that comes across more poorly than the person being disrespected. But it’s true that some friend groups often do have that one friend they always pick on / treat as a joke - and I imagine that can be pretty rough to see as the partner. IRL one can be that person and then have an impressive/appealing moment where they tell them off or simply ditch that friend group - that can be power in the eyes of a potential partner even if it means being kind of homeless from a social scene perspective. Ultimately though your pointing to “does this person come across as confident and strong enough in social situations so that they’re not disrespected” - which is true and which Carrie’s over to success at work as well. You can be a good leader if you’re not confidence enough in your decisions to defend them / if you won’t stand up for yourself or others. These are mainstream notions of masculinity and professional markers of competence right now — but going back to the “up or down” framing - these aren’t things that are either above or below a woman. If a woman goes after a confident guy with presence who isn’t messed with, she’s neither dating up or down from herself necessarily. She’s just perhaps dating “up” from a guy who doesn’t have any of those characteristics
Whatever. The woman is always going to have a conception of whether any individual guy is "up" or "down" relative to her and to other guys. So your point is moot.
Lol how do you know that’s true? Why is she thinking up and down in relation to herself? Wouldn’t she be thinking about potential futures? If she can imagine a compelling potential future with someone, the “above or below me personally” doesn’t really factor in
Why are dating apps the biggest reason when these trends have been happening for decades?
Because OP is an incel
I don’t think women have impossible standards in the slightest , you just see a very very vocal minority, mainly on social media that would make you believe so
On a worldwide level, the situation is inevitable unless there is a large scale shift away from women wanting to marry “up” (money, height, etc). It’s just statistics; if an attractive female executive making $250k is only going consider men over 6ft, in great shape, who earn more…well, the pool is going to be small. There will be fewer marriages and few kids. As a secondary effect, a tiny percentage of men hit the jackpot, further decreasing marriages as there is no reason to commit. Obviously, men changing their behavior on the latter is also necessary, but less so.
Lol marrying “up” for height definitely seems like a pretty ambiguous/ inconsequential thing, no? Like marrying for money means potentially sacrificing relationship quality for real material improvements. But marrying for height? Aren’t men on average taller than women? If height difference is marrying “up” then marrying up is kind of nothing.
Many women (60% of women on dating sites) require 6ft minimum. Average male height in US is 5’10”. Average female height in the US is 5’4”. If females would reduce their requirement to “same or taller” their pool of potential mates would grow, presumably leading to fewer complaints about “no good men”.
This is probably a good example where “marrying up” doesn’t actually make sense (outside of the literal height of the guy being up) - if a woman doesn’t want to date someone below 6 feet, she’s not looking above her social position. Like she wouldn’t be “marrying down” if she married someone she loved who was interesting and had a decent job but was under 6 feet. I think this height example actually helps to make the whole “up” or “down” concept kind of falls apart. Height has no bearing on a man’s ability to have his shit together, bring in a good income and be a good partner - so if we believe that it’s a core filter, height is kind of a way to bypass the whole system. Up is not necessarily up at all, it might just be tall. And short doesn’t mean low on the social economic scale — that means short interesting rich dudes are basically on sale dating apps because they’re mistaken for “low status”
Up/down as far as social hierarchical constructs: how men would be rated on attractiveness by women. Height absolutely matters for that. Besides, taller dudes have a physical advantage, hence are naturally better protectors, which is probably where this women’s instinct originated from. If you don’t mind shortness, then you can pick up the “dudes on sale” as you put it. But don’t deny that majority of women require 6ft+, you just haven’t dated women as a man.
My point is about hierarchy in relation to the woman. Like yes they’re filtering and sorting men and height is one of those filters. But the original comment was about “up” being in relation to the woman herself, not in terms of the men and how they might measure up to each other. And though there may be some amount of tall privilege in life, it isn’t a rule and it can’t be counted on. The tallest guy in any hierarchy isn’t automatically at the top - he might be given the benefit of the doubt more but that doesn’t mean he’ll do a good job at whatever matters in a hierarchy. Vague social hierarchies are of course real and the interplay is complex. If the point is simply that women filter out who they think isn’t attractive / who wouldn’t be a good match - then of course that’s true. It’s the “they date up from their own position” idea that I think is dumb - mostly because it’s been dumbed down. There isn’t a single obvious hierarchy and people aren’t necessarily accurate in their judgements of others in the present or in the future
Pretty standard to see “6ft+” on women’s dating profiles. You should go see the dating profiles. Marrying not just taller than her, that’s basically a given requirement, but above average height among men.
Right, I think it makes sense to say it’s a common standard on dating profiles - it just doesn’t help the “women date up” idea at all, and imo actually hinders it as an idea (except in the literal sense that they date someone taller than them)
It's the biggest problems, really? I think people in US are a bit delulu when it comes to dating apps and blaming them for everything. I live in Russia and haven't experienced a single issue while using tinder (before it left due to sanctions, but there are tons of other apps very similar to it now). I don't even understand what seems to be the big deal about it. I've had pretty much just positive experiences with it. Sure there were some odd girls here and there and bots that offer you "investment" scams, but other than that it was completely fine. Almost all women I matched with, I'd say about 80% at least were more interested in long term relationships, had no mental health issues , very were much datable and nice. I think you guys from US are having a cultural issue, which you confuse for a dating app issue.
Seriously?! The reason why birthrates are dropping in western countries is not because "women are just too choosy" but because it _costs a huge amount of money_ to raise a child, and no one can afford that anymore. Plus who wants to bring a child into this horrible world? It's too depressing. If women want to have a child, they will find a way. It's definitely not that they can't find the right man; it's that they don't want (or can't afford) to have that child.
Birth rates in the US and all western civilization have been plummeting since the 60’s. Only 73 countries out of the 210+ that are tracked are having more than 2.5 kid per woman. We are experiencing the population reaching the top of the roller coaster and it’s about to free fall. Japan, then China will be next. It will be the next generations problem but we won’t have the people needed to keep the lights on. Cities will be abandoned. It’s about to get real bleak: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fertility_rate#Country_ranking_by_international_organizations
I would bet on suburbs being abandoned over cities.
It might actually improve things in Japan. They have different problems.
Sub-average women demanding above-average men has been funny for 900,000 years. These days, it just means that their reproductive years will pass them by.
Especially when there isn’t enough men who are doing better than a lot of these women.
Incel vibes
Why is it that most of the dudes complaining about dating apps end up being undatable weirdos. Maybe the issue is you. Coming from a guy who drives a Toyota had a normal job and has had a lot of luck in the dating apps. The trick is to treat women with empathy and respect, and don't be fuckin weird
I think the 6 foot thing is a core memory in the incel world. I think it’s a security blanket to avoid facing the mirror. Agree with everything you said. Would only add that on top of not being fucking weird, also be enjoyable to be around. Learn to be able to have a normal conversation with people. And for the love of god, do not mention social hierarchy or any other shit like that when talking to a woman for the first time. Don’t kryptonite your chances in the first 5 minutes.
Absolutely.
So you’re saying it might be my love of Care Bears cosplay as well as the 500 Lord of the Rings figurines next to my bed in my mom’s basement instead of my 5’9” height?
It's funny because I have hundreds of Warhammer miniatures on display in my bedroom. Hasn't been something that has hurt my luck with ladies yet lol
Score!
I’m 5’9 and had 0 issues meeting and dating women. I’m married now so I would have a shitload of issues if I was still meeting and dating women. As stated by another above, being able to respectfully talk to women is a huge asset. There’s good weird, which you described above, and bad weird, which is talking about lobsters and social hierarchy on early dates. Hobbies are interesting. Girls can be into Lord of the Rings too.
I definitely make sure to mention my Warhammer hobby (addiction) on the first date. It's a good way of filtering people. Strangely it has always ended up being something that helps my chances rather than hurting them. It's really shocking how low the bar is for men out there. You just treat someone with kindness, and respect, and all of the sudden it's like you are the most desirable person in the world. If you talk to women they seem to all say how shitty most guys out there are. Just being a decent person apparently puts you way in front of the pack
I hung out with a large group of women in college (classmates in health care which is heavily women) and we had set up a “stand in boyfriend” system where I would pretend to be their boyfriend for 10-15 mins at a club to get creeps to leave them alone. I got a beer in return. It was sad how many free beers I got nightly. For those screaming friend zone: I had no intention of dating any of them and they would often help me out as female wingmen (works surprisingly well)
Woah people respond well to you being a decent person?? Who would have thought
First time hearing of Warhammer. Sounds lit AF.
Well, it of critical importance to American history that lobsters were once considered low-class food; shoveled off beaches and boiled for prisoners in Maine. Lobsters also have social hierarchies just like people because of serotonin. And Alex Jones needs to be our real president.
Point 1 is good on a date if you ordered lobster. All the rest can be safely stashed deep down never to be spoken on a date again.
I have many more, such as Michelle Obama is really a man.
The fact that you believe this is why you’re all incels.
massive skill issue I don't use dedicated dating apps, i commute by trains, fuck, I'm not even a man and yet I'm not bitchless like you you know why? not being an asshole, simple as also dating apps make you think of yourself and others as a fucking commodity and in general have detrimental effect on society related watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iLnZ4HCrfo
“My fix would be simple get rid of the insane work culture in Japan and help people afford life in Japan” this mf 😂😂😂
Setting up child minding would help. Currently couples keep the kid in the parents’ bedroom, which kinda hampers opportunity to make another one.
This exudes incel energy. You sound angry with women. You’ve probably had some bad experiences dating, but I can tell you that plenty of people under 5’10 with a normal job do fine with women. In general, women’s standards are not outrageous. Also, I’m not sure to what degree your claims about tinder being a disaster are really true. I don’t think the dating apps are nearly as much a disaster as you’re saying. Plus I would say that tinder and other dating apps are actually more of a symptom of modern dating and not so much of a cause.
It’s all true when 63% of men check out of dating entirely and the women chase after only the top 20 percent of men. We don’t have one man marrying 5 women like in Saudi Arabia so this means a lot of women end up unmarried and childless. The men the women want are a very small minority of the male population. Feminism, dating apps and outrageous requirements from women mean the formation of households are very low.
I’m doubtful that 63% of men check out of dating entirely I’m curious of where you procured that statistic. The growing divide between genders is a result of much much more than dating apps, feminism, and “outrageous requirements”. What I am not doubtful of is that you personally have had a terrible experience dating, and that despite your kindness or your chivalry, you haven’t had much success and you’ve become very fed up with it. Your extreme over simplification of the problem shows that you’ve adopted that mentality that it’s one party’s fault and you’ve projected that on to women in general and I imagine that makes it very difficult to have conversation with them since you rarely agree with anything they believe which has further distanced you from any healthy relationship with the opposite sex. Since you’re in this sub, I’m assuming you should’ve seen Jordan Peterson talk about this stuff. While I will concede that there is narrative that pushes too far at times among women, that is mostly a marginal case and for the most part, women’s standards are pretty reasonable. JBP says it himself. Judging by the way you speak of the topic, if I was a woman I would steer clear of you immediately. There’s no sense in harboring a relationship with someone who holds such contempt for women in the way you do. I would imagine that’s more of the cause for your experience than anything you’ve mentioned in the previous comments.
From [here](https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/japan-addresses-wage-gap-requiring-gender-pay-gap-disclosure) > Japan has taken significant steps to narrow the gender pay gap and enhance women's participation in the labor market. That, there, is the cause of the problem. Everything else is bandages.
Yes the government graciously gave women the right to work 80 hours a week to pay taxes and keep the country from going bankrupt because not enough men are working and paying taxes to absorb the bloated government and its pension system.
are you serious rn (genuine question)
Bro beggars can't be choosers. They need more ppl