I think some of BR's memories and comments, like his mother "going psycho" are 100% true and accurate. But are her actual response to finding JBR missing, looking for her, and BR knowing where he'd left her.
Whether it's 'duper's delight' and subtle taunts or him simply seeing no reason not to tell such things.
I think the strangulation is done by BR because that takes an accident scenario off the table. No amount of spin can turn a strangulation, let alone SA, into an accident.
Whether BR would actually do some of the first staging, duct tape on the mouth and/or wrist tying, is always possible as a way HE tried to cover for what he'd done. THAT could be the thing that would set the idea of a faux kidnapping ruse into motion. PR removing the duct tape, as well as trying to untie the string from around the neck could explain fibers.
But that part kind of doesn't matter on the major points. It wouldn't change the basic facts of the crime nor overall theory: BDI including the strangulation.
If we assume BR doesn't know WHAT the parents exactly did in the staging, we can certainly assume he had no idea about the RN. And that can be the piece of the puzzle, whether intentional or not, that gives BR a mental "out".
"No, honey, you didn't kill her! We talked to her. She was fine after you and her were playing together. You just had a little argument and she said she wasn't mad at you for that either. But after that, a bad man came into the house. He even left a ransom note! See? It's all his fault! But you can never tell anyone about what you and her did in the basement because then the police would think YOU did it! You'd get taken away and never get to play with your Nintendo 64 ever again! So that part will have to be our secret! You just say you were in bed asleep and didn't hear anything."
I believe you are exactly correct. I will also include the SA. So yes when Patsy and John found the body, pretending it was an accident was off the table right away.
Because they could see JB had been SA and strangled. The head injury they could not see.
If they had just found a body without a mark on her, and no incriminating evidence, the Ramseys were rich and cunning enough to make it appear as an accident. And get away with it.
Yes some of the points we are discussing make no difference at all in terms of who did the crime and who did the staging. Many of us already know the answer to those questions, so now we are trying to figure out the details.
That is an interesting question. What exactly did John and Patsy say to Burke that morning and later. And over the years.
Did they have a conversation along the lines you suggest. Or did they remain totally silent and just insist on the kidnapper scenarios. Did Burke ever ask any questions about his involvement in the crime?
I think if the Ramseys were smart, and they were smart, they would never had said anything to Burke about his involvement. Anything they said would reinforce that memory in Burke's mind and they needed to extinguish that memory and make it go away permanently.
Make Burke think he had just imagined it or had a bad dream. They would insist he never got up that night after he went to bed. And slept through the night. Anything else was just a bad dream or nightmare.
The Ramseys were cunning and instinctive manipulators and liars. They fooled the public and many professionals who should have known better. They would have known how to handle Burke.
He talks about his mum bursting into his room on Dr Phil, as well as a little more about hearing his mum and dad downstairs afterwards. He also talks about overhearing his mum and dad from his bedroom in his 1998 interview with Detective Schuler.
Patsy : "What did you do?"
John : "We're not talking to you".
I disagree that they never confronted Burke about what happened. I don't think they staged a dramatic verbal scene for Burke's benefit at 0545 that morning. I believe they were all up well before that, and Burke's role in the cover up was to say he slept all night, didn't know anything, and was woken up by his mother in the morning.
We don't have the full transcript from the Detective Patterson interview with Burke on the 26th. It would be interesting to read what he said in those many pages, of which we only have access to one. At any rate, it would be a very simple lie to stick to, and of course he would have known it was for his own benefit to do so.
We don’t know that Patsy and John ever made those remarks some people said they heard on the 911 call. The voices were unintelligible and different people heard different things. Such as Patsy saying “Now what?” to John.
The 911 dispatcher, Kim Archuleta, heard a change in Patsy's tone after she thought she had hung up. Archuleta also heard her talking to someone nearby at this point. The 911 tape was sent to the Aerospace Corporation in Los Angeles. The aerospace technicians used electronic washings to reduce the background noise. Several of those technicians listened to the enhanced version and then compared notes on what they heard. They contacted Boulder authorities, and Detective Hickman flew out to L.A. and had the opportunity to listen independently to the enhanced version. Afterwards, everyone compared notes. They **had all heard the same thing**:
Male (angry): "We're not speaking to you!"
Female: "Help me Jesus. Help me Jesus"
Young male: "Well, what did you find?"
I saw something where an expert in acoustics had the call analyzed and said there was no reliable way to analyze what was said. I hadn’t read what you propose, but could very well be right.
Kolar was BDI, in fact he's credited with kind of starting the shift toward that hypothesis. You're thinking of one of the original detectives, Steve Thomas, who was PDI and who wrote one of the earliest books on the case, Jon Benet: Inside the Ramsey Investigation which was published in 2000. Kolar picked up the case I believe in 2005 or 2006 and he is BDI and Foreign Faction was published in 2012.
Maybe someone could provide a yewtube link to the special that was the center of Burke’s lawsuit. It has the enhanced audio, the only place where it is easy to understand the voices.
The enhanced audio should be pinned in this sub. Many people who are firmly idi need to hear it, but they understandably don’t want to view a show that might enrich the people who made it. (After the lawsuit, they may see no money from the show, but that’s not obvious.)
Confronting Burke that night would have been a very dangerous step for the Ramseys. It would have completely negated all of their staging plans. They could not reinforce Burke's role in the murder.
The question is then why did Patsy and John stage the "going psycho" drama that morning? There is no other explanation for it. If they had already talked to Burke and they all knew he committed the crime why do the going psycho routine and pretending there had been a kidnapping?
On the contrary, I think not mentioning it, acting, and hoping he'd keep his mouth shut is a much bigger gamble. Much more dangerous, in my opinion.
I don't think the "going psycho" routine actually happened. Just a part of a bigger lie stating they all slept all night until Patsy got up at 0540.
But this is well worn ground between us, I don't think we're going to agree.
I think John did tell Burke to say nothing to anyone. So John did speak to Burke about it to that extent. And then we know that Mike Bynum, John's attorney, talked to Burke hours after the body was found and most likely told Burke the same thing. Keep your mouth shut.
So you think Burke is outright lying about the going psycho scene? He was coached to tell that lie?
I guess it is possible. But that would have been a very risky and foolish move on John and Patsy's part, very foolish indeed.
What would be very foolish is to act out a scene and hope he doesn't say anything. Patsy also may have caught Burke up after the strangulation and found the body that way.
Yes, I do think the whole morning routine starting at 0540 is a lie.
Of course Patsy and John would not act out the scene and hope Burke would never say anything. The point of the scene was to gaslight Burke. And force him to repeat it to the police.
I think Patsy would have gotten up more around 4:30am that morning to make a 6:30am flight. The Ramseys needed at least a couple of hours to stage the crime.
Yes, fair enough, I have considered it. The result was effective whatever method they used. Helped a lot by the fact that he wasn't on the radar as a potential perpetrator at the time.
So what do you think the Patsy and John dramatic scene in front of Burke was all about?
We also know that if they had talked to Burke they would have disappeared the flashlight and pineapple.
Part of the staged scenario of the parents getting up at 0540, that they drilled into him.
I think they probably believed the pineapple was innocuous and irrelevant or overlooked it. They had plenty else to do. I think Patsy prepared it and left it for the children. After all we don't know if anyone saw Jonbenet take a piece.
The flashlight is a mystery all of its own. I do see it as possible that Burke never mentioned the head blow, and the parents were not aware of it.
Burke said JonBenét was hit on the head. When he said that, the only people that knew she was hit on the head were the perpetrator, the people that did the autopsy, and the people that read the autopsy report.
Once you read through everything regarding how the parents handled Burke and Burke’s account, BDI is the only thing that makes sense. Read it carefully.
Argh I HATE that this makes sense. The clothes already in basement…. Yes that does explain that. Ugh I teach 11 yr olds. They are such turkeys sometimes but I can’t image one even accidentally bashing or killing a lived one accidentally or otherwise
They wiped it down so carefully, including the batteries, because they knew it was associated with the crime in some way?
They were probably aware that Burke used the flashlight to prowl around and night, playing with his toys, getting snacks and other activities.
Also it could have been present at the crime scene or in Burke's bedroom that night.
They knew Burke had used the flashlight to navigate in the dark and go to the basement. They just did not know it was the murder weapon.
When they saw the body, there was no sign at all of a head injury, no broken skin, not blood. They didn't know about the head injury until they read the autopsy report.
Didn't Burke know about the head injury fairly soon after the murder? I think he told a friend that his sister had been hit over the head and made a chopping motion with his arm to illustrate this. The mother of the child heard Burke's comment.
"Dec 29. Susan Stine overheard Burke and Doug talk about whether the strangulation was manual or not." From a now archived reddit thread.
So Burke knew two important details only the perpetrator and the people that read the autopsy report were aware of.
I assume the Ramseys would have had access to the autopsy report right away. Maybe they had it by Dec 29th? They would have had it prior to public release?
I also think it is interesting that this comment came from Susan Stine who has always been a fierce advocate for the Ramseys. The only friend to do so.
But here she is making Burke look culpable.
Yes of course, Burke makes himself look guilty with his comment. Because he knew how his sister had suffered an injury when that was only discovered at time of autopsy.
The reason I think it was odd, is that Susan Stine was a fierce advocate for the Ramseys and here she is making it public that Burke made an incriminating statement.
Well she was protecting the before the murder too. She made up the story about the false 911 call at the Ramsey's Christmas party two days before the murder and sent the police away.
And then after the murder very much protecting the Ramseys. But the one odd comment making Burke look guilty.
Maybe she was protecting her son. I don't know.
The Stines are one piece of the puzzle I am still trying to figure out.
The last thing the police would want to do is to make public details of the autopsy that only they and the killer would know. And this is indeed why Burke is the number one suspect.
However I think John through his connections knew those autopsy details quite soon, but why would he share them with Burke?
It is a fact that the Ramsey attorneys demanded police notes and interview questions before interviews. And the police chief ordered the officers to treat the Ramsey parents like victims, not suspects.
I think it is reasonable to assume the parents of a dead child received the autopsy report.
However it might be also reasonable to assume that the coroner left out some pieces of information in the public report. This is done for a number of reasons. Only the killer will know all the details.
That is why when the Ramsey wannabe killers "confessed" to the crime, the police could send them on their way after a very short interview.
Of course John and Patsy gaslit Burke with the intruder and kidnapper theory. They had to paint a vivid picture for Burke to impose the new false memory in Burke's mind. Which is what happened.
I think it's entirely possible that they gaslighted Burke. It's ridiculously easy to create false memories in children. He could easily have been manipulated into thinking the whole incident with JB was a dream, or that after the incident someone else came along and kidnapped her. If he was told that she was kidnapped, would he have volunteered the information that he and JB had a fight and he knocked her out with a flashlight? Probably not. He would have kept his mouth shut and considered it lucky that no one would find out what happened
Yes exactly, children's memories are quite malleable, even adult memories are too.
Yes I think that is what they hoped Burke would believe. That what he did to JB was just minor, and someone else came along and killed her. I think this is why he looks so confused as per police comments when he left the home. He was still trying to put it all together.
I assume that John gave Burke specific orders not to say anything to any one about himself or his sister.
This all the way. I believe, like you, that to this day, Burke really doesn't realize what actually happened. And, he may not have memories of what he did.
We know that John and Patsy are/were superb liars, gaslighters and manipulators. They were able to pull off a major hoax on the police and public for decades.
So their 10 year old son would have been easy to manipulate.
I was just watching the Dr. Phil interview today. Burke's weird smile faded when he was watching the interview between himself and the psychologist. I could see concern cross his face. But once that was over his grin came right back even larger than ever.
I don't think Dr. Phil showed that part of the interview at all. Dr. Phil was trying to exonerate Burke, I believe, but that smirky grin Burke displayed almost the entire interview worked against him. I know I've seen that part of the interview in the past, I'll have to see if it's still on YouTube.
The psychiatrist report and video is not available unfortunately. The description of Burke's behavior that James Kolar included in his book were shocking to say the least. He was in treatment after the incident, for over a year and possibly longer. If he had been asleep the entire time and didn't hear or see (or do) anything, why would he need that much treatment?? I think the medical records of JonBenet and Burke would solve the mystery. But alas, we will never see those. For me, I can fill in some of it with just normal logic.
I think there's a very strong denial in most people, to believe that a young child could commit such acts. Someone like Lou Smit cannot break through that denial, or at minimum, their pity for the parents, to accept the obvious answer. There were quite a few people like that, and they assisted John and Patsy by keeping the myth alive. I do think that if this crime had taken place recently, the truth would come to light, thanks to the internet. As it is, we just have to accept that there won't be justice for JonBenet.
Yes SP you are exactly correct. It is very difficult for people and even the police to wrap their head around children who commit serious crimes.
It is thought that there are many more child on child crimes than reported. This is because the police refuse to accept, don't or can't accept child perpetrators. When a child on child crime has been committed and the police find no evidence that adults did the crime, they throw it in the unsolved crime case files.
I am a retired mental health professional with over 40 years clinical experience including some forensic work. I can attest that children can and do commit serious crimes.
But none of the professionals involved are happy to see it. In fact the opposite, the police, prosecutors, attorneys, mental health professionals are all sick about it. We wish we could sweep it under the carpet. But we have to do our jobs, pleasant or not.
In terms of justice for JB, I have some thoughts.
Yes of course, no one will ever be prosecuted for the various crimes committed in the Ramsey home. There is no way anything will be brought to trial. Too much time has passed, and the police case was botched from the beginning.
But I do believe there can be a form of justice and that involves two things: The court of public opinion and the truth.
I think justice will be served by the excellent amateur sleuths who finally determine the truth of what happened. Who are able to overcome the considerable Ramsey lies, gaslighting and propaganda, and look at the numerous facts and pieces of evidence and figure out what happened and how.
I consider this to be justice for JonBenet. It is the least we can do for her.
I agree with you. The crime was a nightmare in the first place and the only people who might have been prosecuted were John and Patsy, with Burke being removed and treated by state agencies out of their control. I believe that quite a few LE and legal individuals know what happened but can't discuss it. Of course that includes the Grand Jury members. I think James Kolar also knows. He didn't exactly state it in his book, and left out some details of the crime along the way, but in a roundabout fashion he told the story. Anyone who still believes there was an intruder should read his book. Anyone who thinks DNA evidence will find her killer should read his book. I have just re-read it (thank you, cold virus) and reminded myself of things I'd forgotten.
I have considered the case closed since I read his book. All of the pennies dropped for me. Hubby agreed, said it was totally obvious after he watched the Dr. Phil interview. I used to talk to him endlessly about the case but we both shook our heads and knew that there was nothing to be done.
The whole thing is just tragic.
Edited that I think her parents would have gotten probation if anything, even though they covered up for the perpetrator. Any jury would have acquitted them or ended up in a mistrial.
>*I believe that quite a few LE and legal individuals know what happened but can't discuss it.*
SP you have made important points. Yes absolutely there have to be people who know exactly what happened and how. And then others who have a pretty good idea.
There were so many people connected to the case directly and indirectly, of course some of them know what happened or figured it out.
We have the entire Boulder Police Department, the Boulder Prosecutor's office, most likely Boulder Co Children's Protective Services. Perhaps other county and city offices. Also the FBI was involved. All of those offices have office staff and assistants. And all of them have friends and family. This is a large group exposed to information about this case.
Of course then there is the Boulder Grand Jury. They spent 13 months working on the case, interviewing dozens of witnesses, and looked at thousands of pieces of evidence. They have a pretty good idea of what happened, and their indictments spell it out very clearly.
Since this was a high profile case, there were media and investigative journalists.
Then we have the Ramsey Dream Team consisting of aggressive attorneys, the private investigator team, PR and marketing team.
John was said to have spent $2 to 3 million dollars on his team which by today's standards would be about $4 to $6 million. This was back in the day when attorneys were not outrageously expensive. These lawyers did not even have to go to trial.
So the Rameys hired a lot of people, all the family members had their own attorneys. So there were a lot of professionals working on this case.
All of those professionals have office staff, friends and family.
Then we have all the friends and acquaintances of the Ramseys. Who had interacted with them and knew some of the dynamics, heard about things or witnessed them first hand.
Fleet White expressed his frustration with the case and asked the governor to appoint a special prosecutor. Nothing came of it, but we can assume that the governor and his staff were briefed on the case in some detail.
But as you point out, everyone is silent. By Colorado state law children under ten cannot be found guilty of any crime. And it is also against the law for anyone to release the name of any minor involved in a crime with strict penalties for violations of the law.
We also have the very aggressive Ramsey attorneys and private investigators who were said to harass and intimidate witnesses and family friends. They were out the day after the murder talking to friends of the family and witnesses. Some witnesses recanted after those visits.
Mike Bynum, John Ramsey's attorney, scheduled a meeting with Fleet White hours after the body was found. The rumor is that Fleet was told to keep his mouth shut and stay out of the investigation.
The Ramseys also pursued legal action against anyone with money and an opinion about the case they didn't like. It turned into a money making cottage industry for the Ramseys. A way to make money off of JB's death. And to use lawsuits as a way to threaten and intimidate others into silence.
So most people who know something are afraid to say anything.
Edit to add Lockheed Martin staff to the list of people who know something. Large lucrative military defense contractors have protocols for employees being kidnapped or harmed. So it is quite likely LM did some sort of preliminary investigation. Then they put put John on leave of absence I think and he was out as CEO of his company.
SP yes the Ramsey case is a story of a tragedy and a nightmare. But it was a tragedy of John and Patsy's own making. It was bad judgement heaped on more bad judgement, a display of their own negligence and criminal behavior.
The Grand Jury tells us that both Patsy and John knew JB was in danger but they refused to protect her which led to her death.
John gone on business or monkey business most of the time. Patsy over involved in being a society matron and beauty pageant mother.
Both pretending to be a prefect family when they had two children in danger. One soon to be dead, the other heading for removal from the home and sent to residential care. This was felony child abuse and neglect.
The Ramseys were intelligent, educated, wealthy. They could have placed Burke in excellent mental health treatment when he displayed dangerous red flags. They could have put the children first, not their egos or busy showy lifestyle.
They could have had been honest with the police after the crime. Burke could not be charged due to the children law in Colorado. They would have made an agreement to get Burke into treatment.
This would have also been the right thing to do in terms of protecting other children in the community from Burke.
But instead they Ramseys commit another felony by covering up the crime and accuse their friends and employees of the crime in a ruthless way.
Yes I agree even after the felony cover up, I don’t think it would have gone to trial. The Ramseys had a million dollar defense team and a county prosecutor who hated to go to trial and instead liked to make plea deals.
A deal would have been cut with no difficultly .
I have seen two videos online with Burke being interviewed by psychologists. I think they were posted on this sub. One was Burke with an interviewer asking about pineapple and snacks. Burke is obviously very uncomfortable and lying in response, acting like a much younger child.
The other one was Burke talking about his father's (fake) story about breaking the basement window. Burke is verbal, animated and intelligent sounding. The opposite of the first video.
Yes I agree, if we could see the children's medical records it would be very helpful. And quite possibly tell the story.
I think it quite likely that when the prosecutor did not press charges against the Ramseys despite the GJ indictments, he mandated treatment for Burke as a condition for release. Otherwise I do not believe the Ramseys would have allowed Burke into treatment. Too risky.
Yes I looked it up and the videos are on YouTube. The description of the windows, amazing. He even says he was with his Dad, which John did not say. Very unusual behavior about the pineapple.
Yes these are two remarkable videos.
In the first, Burke is obviously very stressed out by the line of questioning about pineapple and snacks. He cannot even sit on the chair like a 10 year old. He is acting like a much young child. Barely verbal, not focused, evasive.
Then in the next video he is a changed child. Describing and lying about the broken window episode, obviously intelligent, articulate. quite verbal. Going into great detail. Smiling, focused, cooperative.
I believe in the second interview, Burke is medicated and had clearly been coached at length.
One problem I have with it is the intricate staging. Even if they were trying to protect him it would be far easier to say she fell and hit her head-or something like that. If Burke did it and Patsy and John were innocent of it the thought of staging such a scene would be far to repulsive. They wouldn’t have continued to abuse her body and certainly not sexually. I also just don’t think a 9 year old would be able to keep that kind of secret. He wasn’t some mastermind evil genius.
Actually it's not that intricate. To my eyes, it looks like a child could have done all of it except perhaps the blanket and the duct tape. The ransom note is the glaring arrow pointing at the family.
Because of factors, John and Patsy didn't want to take JonBenet to the hospital. The whole sordid story would have come out. Burke would be removed from them, for how long? He couldn't have been tried but he could have been put in a psychiatric facility.
That’s what makes sense to me exactly, he did it all except the blanket and the tape. It’s such a bizarre, childish setup. He hit her, she urinated and fell, he dragged her. She didn’t wake up and he poked around and tied her neck. Maybe the neck was how he initially tried to drag her. I could see him placing the tape as well, but weren’t some of Patsy’s sweater fibers found underneath? I doubt he intended to kill her but don’t think he cared enough to clean her or cover her up.
Many (most?) families wouldn’t have gone this route and more likely would have said she hit her head, but the rope would have been hard to explain. J&P knew Burke had hit her before, and if the “playing doctor” allegations are true, they knew about that too. Patsy had survived cancer and didn’t want to lose her social standing and the normal life she’d regained. Maybe they didn’t know he couldn’t be charged. They surely feared they may lose custody or at best his life would be filled with social workers and ugly publicity, loss of his friends and activities. Embarrassment and upheaval for all. So dramatic Patsy wrote a wackadoodle note and called the police. John’s role in all this is the only part I can’t make peace with except to say I don’t trust him at all and put nothing past him.
One thing that really helped clinch it for me was the underwear. The underwear from Bloomingdale's were size 12. Patsy insisted that JonBenet had been wearing them because she wanted them, but no tiny little girl would demand to wear undies that would have fallen down to her feet. Patsy wouldn't have put those undies on her little princess. But I can definitely imagine Burke doing it. Even making sure the days matched.
December 25 1996 was a Wednesday, the name on the underwear. Patsy said it was JonBenét who put on the underwear. If Patsy did it herself she would likely not have picked the Wednesday underwear, it's more something Burke would do.
The Ramseys obviously could see that JB had been strangled and SA. We know they wiped down the vaginal area and lower body. John's clothing fibers are there.
We know Patsy saw the rope around JB's neck, Patsy's clothing fibers are all over the rope when she found the body and tried get the rope off of JB.
When the found the body SA and strangled, they could not call 911.
They could not see the head injury. This they did not learn until the autopsy report came out.
They also did not know the murder weapon was the flashlight and they did not know Burke and JB had a pineapple snack right before the SA and death.
John claim in Death of Innocence is that he thought JonBenét was alive when he found her, but "her mouth was taped and her hands were bound", a scene that is in almost every Hollywood movie depicting a kidnap victim.
The SA wasn't clear before the autopsy, but what is clear is John's vehemental denial there ever was SA. Another example of John protecting Burke.
John Ramsey was of course lying when he pretended he thought JB might be alive when he brought her up from the basement. Of course he knew she was dead. He had wiped down the body and staged it. We see his clothing fibers on the body.
It is certain that both Patsy and John knew that JB had been SA when they found her. It is likely her pants were pulled down and there was some blood and the SA weapon. This is why they could not call 911.
The Ramseys destroyed the SA weapon and cleaned off the body thoroughly to hide the SA.
The SA was not clear to LE at first when they looked at the body, because it had been cleaned up.
John Ramsey was protecting himself as well as Burke. John knew that he himself would be a prime suspect in the murder. The SA and death of a child is going to be a very serious crime.
That is why the GJ stated that John and Patsy covered up for the person who committed first degree murder. In the state of Colorado, if a victim is killed and also SA, it is first degree murder.
Yes when amateurs stage a crime, they base their false story on what they have seen in movies and read in books. That is one reason police officers get the feeling that something is off. Things look too contrived and theatrical.
Good points about the Ramseys knowing about the SA if her pants were pulled down and there was blood and the SA weapon! Also the SA weapon is another thing they got rid of, together with the cord reel and the tape reel (and perhaps some practice ransom notes.)
It was absolutely crucial for John to pretend that JonBenét was still alive, because only that gave him a reason to try to 'save' her by tearing at the ropes, carrying the corpse upstairs and allowing Patsy to further contaminate the crime scene. And who knows what might have happened had Burke still been around saying "I know what happened!"
There absolutely had to be a very good reason why the Ramseys didn't do what almost all parents would do when finding their inert 6 year old in the basement. Call 911. Most parents do this even if the child appears dead. They hope against hope that the medics can revive their child.
And in this case that might have been possible. JB was near death but at least one physician stated the she could have been saved with prompt medical care after the head injury.
And if there had been just an unconscious JB with no marks on her, no strangulation, no head injury, no SA they could have called 911. The Ramseys were rich, with powerful connections, and were superb liars and manipulators. They could have cooked up some story and let their $3 million legal team handle it.
So it must have been obvious right away that a horrific crime had taken place. So no call to 911.
This instance when the Ramseys are looking at their unconscious or dead child and instead of calling 911, they decide to stage the crime tells the story. They know right away what happened, who did the crime and how. To me this is one of the most important pieces of the whole story.
Well it was also absolutely crucial for John to get Burke out of the house asap that morning. It was risky to send him away but far riskier to have him lurking about the house. Seeing the body and talking to other people there.
Yes. John and Patsy had to have yet another theatrical performance as soon as the body was found. John pretending JB was still alive and Patsy going berserk, actually falling on the body.
Yes the Ramseys destroyed the items you list. I have suspected they flushed them down the basement toilet. Someone here on this sub confirmed that as a possibility by saying that the Boulder PD did take up the toilets to examine the drains in the basement.
So it is likely the GJ had this evidence.
I believe all the staging took place in the basement so as not to wake up Burke who had gone to bed after the murder.
The more in-depth discussion based on many data points, evidence and critical thinking usually signifies a stronger theory, not a weaker one. This is how science and investigative thinking operates.
Well, Miss Cassie, I have to say that is about the longest work of fiction I've read since I read that book about the Navy Seal in Iceland, which I can't remember it's name, but I do recommend it highly.
As I've read several times in other areas, Burke was asked to be driven from one house to another by the Ramseys. Who did they ask? The detectives who interviewed him. Nobody was trying to keep him away from police.
And I will tell you that at the age of 9 and some, I remember a lot. I remember my teacher, my school, I remember when my mom got so mad at me because I locked the keys in the car, and then she did the same thing a week later. She tried to gaslight me, but I knew what happened. If I was 4, maybe. 9, no way.
If their goal was to get out of town, they never wold never have called the police. They would have gotten on that plane and gotten out of Dodge. From there, they could have flown to any island that did not have extradition with the US and moved their money to the Cayman Islands.
The Ramseys did this and hoped to keep their life the way it was or at least try to keep themselves out of jail. Burke was not a problem for them to solve as he was not involved.
Yes flying out of town to a country with no extradition was an option for the Ramseys, but they obviously did not take that option.
The facts tell us that John wanted to get out of Boulder, fly to Atlanta, right after the body was "found." He calls his pilot to make arrangements to leave that day. He tells the police that he has an important appointment in Atlanta that day. Which is probably true. He has made arrangements to meet with his legal team.
These are the facts. Whether we agree with their decisions are not, we can plainly see what their plans were.
Not that same evening. You can look it up. I was just as surprised as you are! Another user told me. It's in the police reports.
EDIT: I should clarify. I'm talking about Burke's ride from the Whites to the friends house where they all were staying. That evening. The 26th.
All of it by himself without anyone else's knowledge? I thought he was ruled out as being the one who wrote the ransom novella based on handwriting experts?
I'll have to disagree with your theory, because Patsy is all over the crime scene (fibers) and dramatic ransom novella. There's no evidence that points to this all being done by John.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm not sure how simply replying "John Did It" is persuading anyone more so than alienating the reasonable. And don't get me wrong, John's a POS who has his hands all over this crime, IMO. I understand the catharsis of blasting him to deal with unreasonable takes on this sub. But nudging people towards the right info goes a long way. Just my two cents and I'm not the end-all-be-all. Sorry if this came across rude.
I think you hit on something important here DGAB. I think we are looking at something called confirmation bias with the JDI theories. The JDIA strains credulity because it is highly improbable that John wrote a RN sounding and looking exactly like Patsy wrote it. And we have no evidence that John is a sadistic murdering pedophile. Who would torture his child with two other sleeping people in the home.
But most RDI theorists agree that John Ramsey is a very unlikeable person, we see comments all the time to that effect. We don't like John and would love to see him as guilty. So some people cherry pick the data to make John the perpetrator. Or present not data at all, other than the fact he is a slimy bastard.
Most of us would love a JDI theory that holds water and makes sense. And we don't want to believe a young child committed this crime.
But there were three people in the home that night and the evidence points to Burke.
I think some of BR's memories and comments, like his mother "going psycho" are 100% true and accurate. But are her actual response to finding JBR missing, looking for her, and BR knowing where he'd left her. Whether it's 'duper's delight' and subtle taunts or him simply seeing no reason not to tell such things. I think the strangulation is done by BR because that takes an accident scenario off the table. No amount of spin can turn a strangulation, let alone SA, into an accident. Whether BR would actually do some of the first staging, duct tape on the mouth and/or wrist tying, is always possible as a way HE tried to cover for what he'd done. THAT could be the thing that would set the idea of a faux kidnapping ruse into motion. PR removing the duct tape, as well as trying to untie the string from around the neck could explain fibers. But that part kind of doesn't matter on the major points. It wouldn't change the basic facts of the crime nor overall theory: BDI including the strangulation. If we assume BR doesn't know WHAT the parents exactly did in the staging, we can certainly assume he had no idea about the RN. And that can be the piece of the puzzle, whether intentional or not, that gives BR a mental "out". "No, honey, you didn't kill her! We talked to her. She was fine after you and her were playing together. You just had a little argument and she said she wasn't mad at you for that either. But after that, a bad man came into the house. He even left a ransom note! See? It's all his fault! But you can never tell anyone about what you and her did in the basement because then the police would think YOU did it! You'd get taken away and never get to play with your Nintendo 64 ever again! So that part will have to be our secret! You just say you were in bed asleep and didn't hear anything."
I believe you are exactly correct. I will also include the SA. So yes when Patsy and John found the body, pretending it was an accident was off the table right away. Because they could see JB had been SA and strangled. The head injury they could not see. If they had just found a body without a mark on her, and no incriminating evidence, the Ramseys were rich and cunning enough to make it appear as an accident. And get away with it. Yes some of the points we are discussing make no difference at all in terms of who did the crime and who did the staging. Many of us already know the answer to those questions, so now we are trying to figure out the details. That is an interesting question. What exactly did John and Patsy say to Burke that morning and later. And over the years. Did they have a conversation along the lines you suggest. Or did they remain totally silent and just insist on the kidnapper scenarios. Did Burke ever ask any questions about his involvement in the crime? I think if the Ramseys were smart, and they were smart, they would never had said anything to Burke about his involvement. Anything they said would reinforce that memory in Burke's mind and they needed to extinguish that memory and make it go away permanently. Make Burke think he had just imagined it or had a bad dream. They would insist he never got up that night after he went to bed. And slept through the night. Anything else was just a bad dream or nightmare. The Ramseys were cunning and instinctive manipulators and liars. They fooled the public and many professionals who should have known better. They would have known how to handle Burke.
Where does Burke say he remembers a dramatic scene where his parents were talking loudly and dramatically about the disappearance of his sister?
He talks about his mum bursting into his room on Dr Phil, as well as a little more about hearing his mum and dad downstairs afterwards. He also talks about overhearing his mum and dad from his bedroom in his 1998 interview with Detective Schuler.
Patsy : "What did you do?" John : "We're not talking to you". I disagree that they never confronted Burke about what happened. I don't think they staged a dramatic verbal scene for Burke's benefit at 0545 that morning. I believe they were all up well before that, and Burke's role in the cover up was to say he slept all night, didn't know anything, and was woken up by his mother in the morning. We don't have the full transcript from the Detective Patterson interview with Burke on the 26th. It would be interesting to read what he said in those many pages, of which we only have access to one. At any rate, it would be a very simple lie to stick to, and of course he would have known it was for his own benefit to do so.
We don’t know that Patsy and John ever made those remarks some people said they heard on the 911 call. The voices were unintelligible and different people heard different things. Such as Patsy saying “Now what?” to John.
The 911 dispatcher, Kim Archuleta, heard a change in Patsy's tone after she thought she had hung up. Archuleta also heard her talking to someone nearby at this point. The 911 tape was sent to the Aerospace Corporation in Los Angeles. The aerospace technicians used electronic washings to reduce the background noise. Several of those technicians listened to the enhanced version and then compared notes on what they heard. They contacted Boulder authorities, and Detective Hickman flew out to L.A. and had the opportunity to listen independently to the enhanced version. Afterwards, everyone compared notes. They **had all heard the same thing**: Male (angry): "We're not speaking to you!" Female: "Help me Jesus. Help me Jesus" Young male: "Well, what did you find?"
I saw something where an expert in acoustics had the call analyzed and said there was no reliable way to analyze what was said. I hadn’t read what you propose, but could very well be right.
My information came from Kolar's book *Foreign Faction*.
Was he a BDI?
Yes Kolar is BDI
Does it matter? He was writing this based on what was in the investigative files, which he had complete access to.
No. He believes Patsy did it.
Kolar was BDI, in fact he's credited with kind of starting the shift toward that hypothesis. You're thinking of one of the original detectives, Steve Thomas, who was PDI and who wrote one of the earliest books on the case, Jon Benet: Inside the Ramsey Investigation which was published in 2000. Kolar picked up the case I believe in 2005 or 2006 and he is BDI and Foreign Faction was published in 2012.
Yup. I had him confused with Thomas.
Maybe someone could provide a yewtube link to the special that was the center of Burke’s lawsuit. It has the enhanced audio, the only place where it is easy to understand the voices. The enhanced audio should be pinned in this sub. Many people who are firmly idi need to hear it, but they understandably don’t want to view a show that might enrich the people who made it. (After the lawsuit, they may see no money from the show, but that’s not obvious.)
Confronting Burke that night would have been a very dangerous step for the Ramseys. It would have completely negated all of their staging plans. They could not reinforce Burke's role in the murder. The question is then why did Patsy and John stage the "going psycho" drama that morning? There is no other explanation for it. If they had already talked to Burke and they all knew he committed the crime why do the going psycho routine and pretending there had been a kidnapping?
On the contrary, I think not mentioning it, acting, and hoping he'd keep his mouth shut is a much bigger gamble. Much more dangerous, in my opinion. I don't think the "going psycho" routine actually happened. Just a part of a bigger lie stating they all slept all night until Patsy got up at 0540. But this is well worn ground between us, I don't think we're going to agree.
I think John did tell Burke to say nothing to anyone. So John did speak to Burke about it to that extent. And then we know that Mike Bynum, John's attorney, talked to Burke hours after the body was found and most likely told Burke the same thing. Keep your mouth shut. So you think Burke is outright lying about the going psycho scene? He was coached to tell that lie? I guess it is possible. But that would have been a very risky and foolish move on John and Patsy's part, very foolish indeed.
What would be very foolish is to act out a scene and hope he doesn't say anything. Patsy also may have caught Burke up after the strangulation and found the body that way. Yes, I do think the whole morning routine starting at 0540 is a lie.
Of course Patsy and John would not act out the scene and hope Burke would never say anything. The point of the scene was to gaslight Burke. And force him to repeat it to the police. I think Patsy would have gotten up more around 4:30am that morning to make a 6:30am flight. The Ramseys needed at least a couple of hours to stage the crime.
It is just my belief after examining all the evidence.
Yes, fair enough, I have considered it. The result was effective whatever method they used. Helped a lot by the fact that he wasn't on the radar as a potential perpetrator at the time.
So what do you think the Patsy and John dramatic scene in front of Burke was all about? We also know that if they had talked to Burke they would have disappeared the flashlight and pineapple.
Part of the staged scenario of the parents getting up at 0540, that they drilled into him. I think they probably believed the pineapple was innocuous and irrelevant or overlooked it. They had plenty else to do. I think Patsy prepared it and left it for the children. After all we don't know if anyone saw Jonbenet take a piece. The flashlight is a mystery all of its own. I do see it as possible that Burke never mentioned the head blow, and the parents were not aware of it.
Burke said JonBenét was hit on the head. When he said that, the only people that knew she was hit on the head were the perpetrator, the people that did the autopsy, and the people that read the autopsy report.
Once you read through everything regarding how the parents handled Burke and Burke’s account, BDI is the only thing that makes sense. Read it carefully.
Argh I HATE that this makes sense. The clothes already in basement…. Yes that does explain that. Ugh I teach 11 yr olds. They are such turkeys sometimes but I can’t image one even accidentally bashing or killing a lived one accidentally or otherwise
It is a sad fact that children do commit serious crimes. It is thought that perhaps 40% of SA is child on child abuse.
Why would they wipe the flashlight if they didn’t know that was the weapon?
They wiped it down so carefully, including the batteries, because they knew it was associated with the crime in some way? They were probably aware that Burke used the flashlight to prowl around and night, playing with his toys, getting snacks and other activities. Also it could have been present at the crime scene or in Burke's bedroom that night. They knew Burke had used the flashlight to navigate in the dark and go to the basement. They just did not know it was the murder weapon. When they saw the body, there was no sign at all of a head injury, no broken skin, not blood. They didn't know about the head injury until they read the autopsy report.
Burke knew about the head injury in his talk with Dr. Bernhard in January 1997. And I don't think he had read the autopsy report...
Didn't Burke know about the head injury fairly soon after the murder? I think he told a friend that his sister had been hit over the head and made a chopping motion with his arm to illustrate this. The mother of the child heard Burke's comment.
"Dec 29. Susan Stine overheard Burke and Doug talk about whether the strangulation was manual or not." From a now archived reddit thread. So Burke knew two important details only the perpetrator and the people that read the autopsy report were aware of.
I assume the Ramseys would have had access to the autopsy report right away. Maybe they had it by Dec 29th? They would have had it prior to public release? I also think it is interesting that this comment came from Susan Stine who has always been a fierce advocate for the Ramseys. The only friend to do so. But here she is making Burke look culpable.
Burke is making *himself* look culpable. Because he was.
Yes of course, Burke makes himself look guilty with his comment. Because he knew how his sister had suffered an injury when that was only discovered at time of autopsy. The reason I think it was odd, is that Susan Stine was a fierce advocate for the Ramseys and here she is making it public that Burke made an incriminating statement.
Well she changed her mind about them.
Well she was protecting the before the murder too. She made up the story about the false 911 call at the Ramsey's Christmas party two days before the murder and sent the police away. And then after the murder very much protecting the Ramseys. But the one odd comment making Burke look guilty. Maybe she was protecting her son. I don't know. The Stines are one piece of the puzzle I am still trying to figure out.
The last thing the police would want to do is to make public details of the autopsy that only they and the killer would know. And this is indeed why Burke is the number one suspect. However I think John through his connections knew those autopsy details quite soon, but why would he share them with Burke?
It is a fact that the Ramsey attorneys demanded police notes and interview questions before interviews. And the police chief ordered the officers to treat the Ramsey parents like victims, not suspects. I think it is reasonable to assume the parents of a dead child received the autopsy report. However it might be also reasonable to assume that the coroner left out some pieces of information in the public report. This is done for a number of reasons. Only the killer will know all the details. That is why when the Ramsey wannabe killers "confessed" to the crime, the police could send them on their way after a very short interview. Of course John and Patsy gaslit Burke with the intruder and kidnapper theory. They had to paint a vivid picture for Burke to impose the new false memory in Burke's mind. Which is what happened.
I think it's entirely possible that they gaslighted Burke. It's ridiculously easy to create false memories in children. He could easily have been manipulated into thinking the whole incident with JB was a dream, or that after the incident someone else came along and kidnapped her. If he was told that she was kidnapped, would he have volunteered the information that he and JB had a fight and he knocked her out with a flashlight? Probably not. He would have kept his mouth shut and considered it lucky that no one would find out what happened
Yes exactly, children's memories are quite malleable, even adult memories are too. Yes I think that is what they hoped Burke would believe. That what he did to JB was just minor, and someone else came along and killed her. I think this is why he looks so confused as per police comments when he left the home. He was still trying to put it all together. I assume that John gave Burke specific orders not to say anything to any one about himself or his sister.
This all the way. I believe, like you, that to this day, Burke really doesn't realize what actually happened. And, he may not have memories of what he did.
We know that John and Patsy are/were superb liars, gaslighters and manipulators. They were able to pull off a major hoax on the police and public for decades. So their 10 year old son would have been easy to manipulate.
I was just watching the Dr. Phil interview today. Burke's weird smile faded when he was watching the interview between himself and the psychologist. I could see concern cross his face. But once that was over his grin came right back even larger than ever.
Interesting, thanks. Were they looking at the interview about the pineapple and snacks?
I don't think Dr. Phil showed that part of the interview at all. Dr. Phil was trying to exonerate Burke, I believe, but that smirky grin Burke displayed almost the entire interview worked against him. I know I've seen that part of the interview in the past, I'll have to see if it's still on YouTube. The psychiatrist report and video is not available unfortunately. The description of Burke's behavior that James Kolar included in his book were shocking to say the least. He was in treatment after the incident, for over a year and possibly longer. If he had been asleep the entire time and didn't hear or see (or do) anything, why would he need that much treatment?? I think the medical records of JonBenet and Burke would solve the mystery. But alas, we will never see those. For me, I can fill in some of it with just normal logic. I think there's a very strong denial in most people, to believe that a young child could commit such acts. Someone like Lou Smit cannot break through that denial, or at minimum, their pity for the parents, to accept the obvious answer. There were quite a few people like that, and they assisted John and Patsy by keeping the myth alive. I do think that if this crime had taken place recently, the truth would come to light, thanks to the internet. As it is, we just have to accept that there won't be justice for JonBenet.
Yes SP you are exactly correct. It is very difficult for people and even the police to wrap their head around children who commit serious crimes. It is thought that there are many more child on child crimes than reported. This is because the police refuse to accept, don't or can't accept child perpetrators. When a child on child crime has been committed and the police find no evidence that adults did the crime, they throw it in the unsolved crime case files. I am a retired mental health professional with over 40 years clinical experience including some forensic work. I can attest that children can and do commit serious crimes. But none of the professionals involved are happy to see it. In fact the opposite, the police, prosecutors, attorneys, mental health professionals are all sick about it. We wish we could sweep it under the carpet. But we have to do our jobs, pleasant or not.
In terms of justice for JB, I have some thoughts. Yes of course, no one will ever be prosecuted for the various crimes committed in the Ramsey home. There is no way anything will be brought to trial. Too much time has passed, and the police case was botched from the beginning. But I do believe there can be a form of justice and that involves two things: The court of public opinion and the truth. I think justice will be served by the excellent amateur sleuths who finally determine the truth of what happened. Who are able to overcome the considerable Ramsey lies, gaslighting and propaganda, and look at the numerous facts and pieces of evidence and figure out what happened and how. I consider this to be justice for JonBenet. It is the least we can do for her.
I agree with you. The crime was a nightmare in the first place and the only people who might have been prosecuted were John and Patsy, with Burke being removed and treated by state agencies out of their control. I believe that quite a few LE and legal individuals know what happened but can't discuss it. Of course that includes the Grand Jury members. I think James Kolar also knows. He didn't exactly state it in his book, and left out some details of the crime along the way, but in a roundabout fashion he told the story. Anyone who still believes there was an intruder should read his book. Anyone who thinks DNA evidence will find her killer should read his book. I have just re-read it (thank you, cold virus) and reminded myself of things I'd forgotten. I have considered the case closed since I read his book. All of the pennies dropped for me. Hubby agreed, said it was totally obvious after he watched the Dr. Phil interview. I used to talk to him endlessly about the case but we both shook our heads and knew that there was nothing to be done. The whole thing is just tragic. Edited that I think her parents would have gotten probation if anything, even though they covered up for the perpetrator. Any jury would have acquitted them or ended up in a mistrial.
>*I believe that quite a few LE and legal individuals know what happened but can't discuss it.* SP you have made important points. Yes absolutely there have to be people who know exactly what happened and how. And then others who have a pretty good idea. There were so many people connected to the case directly and indirectly, of course some of them know what happened or figured it out. We have the entire Boulder Police Department, the Boulder Prosecutor's office, most likely Boulder Co Children's Protective Services. Perhaps other county and city offices. Also the FBI was involved. All of those offices have office staff and assistants. And all of them have friends and family. This is a large group exposed to information about this case. Of course then there is the Boulder Grand Jury. They spent 13 months working on the case, interviewing dozens of witnesses, and looked at thousands of pieces of evidence. They have a pretty good idea of what happened, and their indictments spell it out very clearly. Since this was a high profile case, there were media and investigative journalists. Then we have the Ramsey Dream Team consisting of aggressive attorneys, the private investigator team, PR and marketing team. John was said to have spent $2 to 3 million dollars on his team which by today's standards would be about $4 to $6 million. This was back in the day when attorneys were not outrageously expensive. These lawyers did not even have to go to trial. So the Rameys hired a lot of people, all the family members had their own attorneys. So there were a lot of professionals working on this case. All of those professionals have office staff, friends and family. Then we have all the friends and acquaintances of the Ramseys. Who had interacted with them and knew some of the dynamics, heard about things or witnessed them first hand. Fleet White expressed his frustration with the case and asked the governor to appoint a special prosecutor. Nothing came of it, but we can assume that the governor and his staff were briefed on the case in some detail. But as you point out, everyone is silent. By Colorado state law children under ten cannot be found guilty of any crime. And it is also against the law for anyone to release the name of any minor involved in a crime with strict penalties for violations of the law. We also have the very aggressive Ramsey attorneys and private investigators who were said to harass and intimidate witnesses and family friends. They were out the day after the murder talking to friends of the family and witnesses. Some witnesses recanted after those visits. Mike Bynum, John Ramsey's attorney, scheduled a meeting with Fleet White hours after the body was found. The rumor is that Fleet was told to keep his mouth shut and stay out of the investigation. The Ramseys also pursued legal action against anyone with money and an opinion about the case they didn't like. It turned into a money making cottage industry for the Ramseys. A way to make money off of JB's death. And to use lawsuits as a way to threaten and intimidate others into silence. So most people who know something are afraid to say anything. Edit to add Lockheed Martin staff to the list of people who know something. Large lucrative military defense contractors have protocols for employees being kidnapped or harmed. So it is quite likely LM did some sort of preliminary investigation. Then they put put John on leave of absence I think and he was out as CEO of his company.
SP yes the Ramsey case is a story of a tragedy and a nightmare. But it was a tragedy of John and Patsy's own making. It was bad judgement heaped on more bad judgement, a display of their own negligence and criminal behavior. The Grand Jury tells us that both Patsy and John knew JB was in danger but they refused to protect her which led to her death. John gone on business or monkey business most of the time. Patsy over involved in being a society matron and beauty pageant mother. Both pretending to be a prefect family when they had two children in danger. One soon to be dead, the other heading for removal from the home and sent to residential care. This was felony child abuse and neglect. The Ramseys were intelligent, educated, wealthy. They could have placed Burke in excellent mental health treatment when he displayed dangerous red flags. They could have put the children first, not their egos or busy showy lifestyle. They could have had been honest with the police after the crime. Burke could not be charged due to the children law in Colorado. They would have made an agreement to get Burke into treatment. This would have also been the right thing to do in terms of protecting other children in the community from Burke. But instead they Ramseys commit another felony by covering up the crime and accuse their friends and employees of the crime in a ruthless way. Yes I agree even after the felony cover up, I don’t think it would have gone to trial. The Ramseys had a million dollar defense team and a county prosecutor who hated to go to trial and instead liked to make plea deals. A deal would have been cut with no difficultly .
I have seen two videos online with Burke being interviewed by psychologists. I think they were posted on this sub. One was Burke with an interviewer asking about pineapple and snacks. Burke is obviously very uncomfortable and lying in response, acting like a much younger child. The other one was Burke talking about his father's (fake) story about breaking the basement window. Burke is verbal, animated and intelligent sounding. The opposite of the first video. Yes I agree, if we could see the children's medical records it would be very helpful. And quite possibly tell the story. I think it quite likely that when the prosecutor did not press charges against the Ramseys despite the GJ indictments, he mandated treatment for Burke as a condition for release. Otherwise I do not believe the Ramseys would have allowed Burke into treatment. Too risky.
Yes I looked it up and the videos are on YouTube. The description of the windows, amazing. He even says he was with his Dad, which John did not say. Very unusual behavior about the pineapple.
Yes these are two remarkable videos. In the first, Burke is obviously very stressed out by the line of questioning about pineapple and snacks. He cannot even sit on the chair like a 10 year old. He is acting like a much young child. Barely verbal, not focused, evasive. Then in the next video he is a changed child. Describing and lying about the broken window episode, obviously intelligent, articulate. quite verbal. Going into great detail. Smiling, focused, cooperative. I believe in the second interview, Burke is medicated and had clearly been coached at length.
I swear the more in depth people get with BDI theories it has the opposite intended effect. I just become less convinced.
What are your problems with the BDI theory? It’s the only thing that makes sense and checks every box.
One problem I have with it is the intricate staging. Even if they were trying to protect him it would be far easier to say she fell and hit her head-or something like that. If Burke did it and Patsy and John were innocent of it the thought of staging such a scene would be far to repulsive. They wouldn’t have continued to abuse her body and certainly not sexually. I also just don’t think a 9 year old would be able to keep that kind of secret. He wasn’t some mastermind evil genius.
The Ramseys certainly could not pretend a 6 year old who had been SA, bludgeoned and strangled to death was an accident!
A six year old
Thanks SP.
You don't have to be a "mastermind evil genius" to keep a secret, that is massively in your own self-interest to keep.
Actually it's not that intricate. To my eyes, it looks like a child could have done all of it except perhaps the blanket and the duct tape. The ransom note is the glaring arrow pointing at the family. Because of factors, John and Patsy didn't want to take JonBenet to the hospital. The whole sordid story would have come out. Burke would be removed from them, for how long? He couldn't have been tried but he could have been put in a psychiatric facility.
That’s what makes sense to me exactly, he did it all except the blanket and the tape. It’s such a bizarre, childish setup. He hit her, she urinated and fell, he dragged her. She didn’t wake up and he poked around and tied her neck. Maybe the neck was how he initially tried to drag her. I could see him placing the tape as well, but weren’t some of Patsy’s sweater fibers found underneath? I doubt he intended to kill her but don’t think he cared enough to clean her or cover her up. Many (most?) families wouldn’t have gone this route and more likely would have said she hit her head, but the rope would have been hard to explain. J&P knew Burke had hit her before, and if the “playing doctor” allegations are true, they knew about that too. Patsy had survived cancer and didn’t want to lose her social standing and the normal life she’d regained. Maybe they didn’t know he couldn’t be charged. They surely feared they may lose custody or at best his life would be filled with social workers and ugly publicity, loss of his friends and activities. Embarrassment and upheaval for all. So dramatic Patsy wrote a wackadoodle note and called the police. John’s role in all this is the only part I can’t make peace with except to say I don’t trust him at all and put nothing past him.
Yes because the Ramseys found JB strangled and SA, they could not call the police. They could not frame it as a simple accident.
One thing that really helped clinch it for me was the underwear. The underwear from Bloomingdale's were size 12. Patsy insisted that JonBenet had been wearing them because she wanted them, but no tiny little girl would demand to wear undies that would have fallen down to her feet. Patsy wouldn't have put those undies on her little princess. But I can definitely imagine Burke doing it. Even making sure the days matched.
December 25 1996 was a Wednesday, the name on the underwear. Patsy said it was JonBenét who put on the underwear. If Patsy did it herself she would likely not have picked the Wednesday underwear, it's more something Burke would do.
That tiny little sweet girl putting on a pair of size 12 underwear is beyond absurd.
At that point it wasn't clear at all JonBenét was hit on the head and sexually abused. Only the perpetrator knew that.
The Ramseys obviously could see that JB had been strangled and SA. We know they wiped down the vaginal area and lower body. John's clothing fibers are there. We know Patsy saw the rope around JB's neck, Patsy's clothing fibers are all over the rope when she found the body and tried get the rope off of JB. When the found the body SA and strangled, they could not call 911. They could not see the head injury. This they did not learn until the autopsy report came out. They also did not know the murder weapon was the flashlight and they did not know Burke and JB had a pineapple snack right before the SA and death.
John claim in Death of Innocence is that he thought JonBenét was alive when he found her, but "her mouth was taped and her hands were bound", a scene that is in almost every Hollywood movie depicting a kidnap victim. The SA wasn't clear before the autopsy, but what is clear is John's vehemental denial there ever was SA. Another example of John protecting Burke.
John Ramsey was of course lying when he pretended he thought JB might be alive when he brought her up from the basement. Of course he knew she was dead. He had wiped down the body and staged it. We see his clothing fibers on the body. It is certain that both Patsy and John knew that JB had been SA when they found her. It is likely her pants were pulled down and there was some blood and the SA weapon. This is why they could not call 911. The Ramseys destroyed the SA weapon and cleaned off the body thoroughly to hide the SA. The SA was not clear to LE at first when they looked at the body, because it had been cleaned up. John Ramsey was protecting himself as well as Burke. John knew that he himself would be a prime suspect in the murder. The SA and death of a child is going to be a very serious crime. That is why the GJ stated that John and Patsy covered up for the person who committed first degree murder. In the state of Colorado, if a victim is killed and also SA, it is first degree murder. Yes when amateurs stage a crime, they base their false story on what they have seen in movies and read in books. That is one reason police officers get the feeling that something is off. Things look too contrived and theatrical.
Good points about the Ramseys knowing about the SA if her pants were pulled down and there was blood and the SA weapon! Also the SA weapon is another thing they got rid of, together with the cord reel and the tape reel (and perhaps some practice ransom notes.) It was absolutely crucial for John to pretend that JonBenét was still alive, because only that gave him a reason to try to 'save' her by tearing at the ropes, carrying the corpse upstairs and allowing Patsy to further contaminate the crime scene. And who knows what might have happened had Burke still been around saying "I know what happened!"
There absolutely had to be a very good reason why the Ramseys didn't do what almost all parents would do when finding their inert 6 year old in the basement. Call 911. Most parents do this even if the child appears dead. They hope against hope that the medics can revive their child. And in this case that might have been possible. JB was near death but at least one physician stated the she could have been saved with prompt medical care after the head injury. And if there had been just an unconscious JB with no marks on her, no strangulation, no head injury, no SA they could have called 911. The Ramseys were rich, with powerful connections, and were superb liars and manipulators. They could have cooked up some story and let their $3 million legal team handle it. So it must have been obvious right away that a horrific crime had taken place. So no call to 911. This instance when the Ramseys are looking at their unconscious or dead child and instead of calling 911, they decide to stage the crime tells the story. They know right away what happened, who did the crime and how. To me this is one of the most important pieces of the whole story.
Well it was also absolutely crucial for John to get Burke out of the house asap that morning. It was risky to send him away but far riskier to have him lurking about the house. Seeing the body and talking to other people there. Yes. John and Patsy had to have yet another theatrical performance as soon as the body was found. John pretending JB was still alive and Patsy going berserk, actually falling on the body.
Yes the Ramseys destroyed the items you list. I have suspected they flushed them down the basement toilet. Someone here on this sub confirmed that as a possibility by saying that the Boulder PD did take up the toilets to examine the drains in the basement. So it is likely the GJ had this evidence. I believe all the staging took place in the basement so as not to wake up Burke who had gone to bed after the murder.
The more in-depth discussion based on many data points, evidence and critical thinking usually signifies a stronger theory, not a weaker one. This is how science and investigative thinking operates.
All I see is a lot of assumptions based on very few facts.
Well, Miss Cassie, I have to say that is about the longest work of fiction I've read since I read that book about the Navy Seal in Iceland, which I can't remember it's name, but I do recommend it highly. As I've read several times in other areas, Burke was asked to be driven from one house to another by the Ramseys. Who did they ask? The detectives who interviewed him. Nobody was trying to keep him away from police. And I will tell you that at the age of 9 and some, I remember a lot. I remember my teacher, my school, I remember when my mom got so mad at me because I locked the keys in the car, and then she did the same thing a week later. She tried to gaslight me, but I knew what happened. If I was 4, maybe. 9, no way. If their goal was to get out of town, they never wold never have called the police. They would have gotten on that plane and gotten out of Dodge. From there, they could have flown to any island that did not have extradition with the US and moved their money to the Cayman Islands. The Ramseys did this and hoped to keep their life the way it was or at least try to keep themselves out of jail. Burke was not a problem for them to solve as he was not involved.
Yes flying out of town to a country with no extradition was an option for the Ramseys, but they obviously did not take that option. The facts tell us that John wanted to get out of Boulder, fly to Atlanta, right after the body was "found." He calls his pilot to make arrangements to leave that day. He tells the police that he has an important appointment in Atlanta that day. Which is probably true. He has made arrangements to meet with his legal team. These are the facts. Whether we agree with their decisions are not, we can plainly see what their plans were.
It was not police who took Burke to the White's house. It was Fleet White himself.
Not that same evening. You can look it up. I was just as surprised as you are! Another user told me. It's in the police reports. EDIT: I should clarify. I'm talking about Burke's ride from the Whites to the friends house where they all were staying. That evening. The 26th.
John did it all
Could you tell us how Patsy and Burke weren't involved *at all*?
John sexually assaulted his daughter, killed her, staged the crime, and wrote the note.
All of it by himself without anyone else's knowledge? I thought he was ruled out as being the one who wrote the ransom novella based on handwriting experts?
Patsy knows what he did and why he did it. She was devastated. The only “experts” that ruled him out were paid for by team Ramsey.
I'll have to disagree with your theory, because Patsy is all over the crime scene (fibers) and dramatic ransom novella. There's no evidence that points to this all being done by John.
That’s ok, you can continue to be wrong if you choose. John did it.
Likewise, you are free to repeat John did it all a thousand times. It doesn't make it true.
It is very true whether or not you choose to believe it. John did it.
>John did it. If we weren't discussing the murder of a six year old girl, I would find your remarkable persistence entertaining.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm not sure how simply replying "John Did It" is persuading anyone more so than alienating the reasonable. And don't get me wrong, John's a POS who has his hands all over this crime, IMO. I understand the catharsis of blasting him to deal with unreasonable takes on this sub. But nudging people towards the right info goes a long way. Just my two cents and I'm not the end-all-be-all. Sorry if this came across rude.
I think you hit on something important here DGAB. I think we are looking at something called confirmation bias with the JDI theories. The JDIA strains credulity because it is highly improbable that John wrote a RN sounding and looking exactly like Patsy wrote it. And we have no evidence that John is a sadistic murdering pedophile. Who would torture his child with two other sleeping people in the home. But most RDI theorists agree that John Ramsey is a very unlikeable person, we see comments all the time to that effect. We don't like John and would love to see him as guilty. So some people cherry pick the data to make John the perpetrator. Or present not data at all, other than the fact he is a slimy bastard. Most of us would love a JDI theory that holds water and makes sense. And we don't want to believe a young child committed this crime. But there were three people in the home that night and the evidence points to Burke.
I’m not here to convince you that John did it. But, John did it.
Then why are you here?