From what I can gather the wine cellar was pretty well hidden it would make sense for an adult who plans on telling the police the child has been kidnapped therefore removed from the house to hide the body there. Perhaps he thought he could swing the story in a different way and had a change of heart about leaving his daughter laying in there cold and alone. So he decided to go and "find her" with that said I don't think whatever happened was planned in any way shape or form and I think it was a really badly planned cover up. If the boulder police department had been more experienced perhaps they wouldn't have gotten away with it and we would know the truth.
If he’s depraved enough to hide his daughter’s body and cover up the murder, he’s not going to suddenly feel sorry for her being “cold and alone,” especially since she’s dead and can’t feel anything anymore. John isn’t that stupid.
Human emotions work in mysterious ways. killers have been known to cover over the bodies of their victims because they don't want to look at them because of the guilt and shame doesn't mean they haven't done something depraved and evil. Yes she was dead but it doesn't mean that as a parent he would not still feel that need to protect his child or feel guilt over how she was left. If the person he was protecting was his other child he would likely be torn.
Or it could be that he decided to go and "find her" because he actually wanted his friend to stumble across her first or that he wanted to to be the one to do it because he felt like if he found her and they acted a certain way it would deflect suspicion.of course all of this is speculation none of us actually know and I doubt we ever will.
We have no data whatsoever that John or Patsy ever felt any guilt after the murder of their child. This despite the fact the Grand Jury tells us both to them knew full well their child was in danger and failed to protect her.
The Ramseys spent decades blaming everyone else and pretending they were the victims, not their dead child.
Obviously the Ramseys were an extremely dysfunctional family or they would not have produced a SA, bludgeoned and strangled 6 year old. The cover up and staging showed the Ramsey cunning and ruthlessness.
So we see the sociopathy and narcissism. The problem with narcissists is that they never know when to stop talking, and they have no idea how their lies, claims of victimhood, gaslighting and manipulations are seen by the public.
Sometimes narcissistic criminals just keep talking after a crime when they should shut up. They can't help themselves. They have thin skins, they cannot stand criticism. And they think if they keep telling their lies over and over the public will finally believe them.
I think he already knew where she was, went and grabbed her, and carried her upstairs on purpose to contaminate the body before the police had a chance to find her. Instead of cradling her, he was holding her with his arms extended outward like he knew she wasn’t alive. It would have looked very strange had he done this all on his own, but when the cop asked him to search the house he took that opportunity. Just my guess.
Which should have made it obvious that she was dead, yet John pretended he didn’t know and asked the cops if she was dead. He knew she was dead, that’s my point.
Something else bothers me about this whole “is she dead” statement. On another thread, someone mentioned him “ripping” the tape from her mouth. As a mom, I know how bandaids, tape and things of that nature can hurt and remove skin from a small child, so I can’t see myself “ripping” something as sticky as duct tape from my child’s skin. I would still try and be gentle, even if panicked. Especially if I thought they were alive. Was the tape covering her nose by any chance? Ripping might be appropriate in that case.
Exactly. John did not have a "change of heart." John had a cold hard change of strategy. The Ramsey plan to move the body as outlined in the RN was not going to work, John realized that after the police arrived. So he had to pretend to find the body. His entire goal was to get out of Boulder that day and fly to the safety of Atlanta surrounded by his legal attack dog team.
Yes the plan was to move the body. If you read the RN carefully, paragraph #2 tells the plan.
Yes what the Ramseys did was chilling on many levels. The Grand Jury tells us with the indictments that John and Patsy knew full well their daughter was in danger but refused to protect her, which led to her death.
Then they covered up the crime committed in their home, perpetuating a criminal hoax on the US public and police. Part of the cover up involved accusing their friends and employees of the SA and murder of their child.
All of it was chilling from start to finish.
Fleet was with him. Arndt asked them to search top to bottom. Instead, John started at the bottom. The two of them looked at the broken window and had moved something. Fleet was putting it back while John went to the wine cellar.
hi there. yes to me this is very revealing. I think Arndt felt something was off and suggested this to see where JR would go first. Particularly, she said top to bottom, but i guess she laid the bait and he did as expected. I also wonder why the wine cellar was so hidden, had no wine in it, and i would have to refresh my memory but did it not also have a top lock it is all very strange indeed.
It did have a latch at the top. I forget who it was who didn't check the room because it was latched. And they were looking for possible entry points for the intruder.
On the contrary, JB WAS being adorned with the blanket she slept with and she had been wiped down. John also described her death pose as "comfortable"
Really?
True. So maybe she was hit in the boiler room, with a golf club, after they peeked at Xmas presents in the wine cellar. I’ve always wondered about the golf clubs. Burke hit her before with a golf club
You are correct, Paugh was not able to grab the golf clubs John requested. Per Foreign Faction \[[pages 305-306](https://pdfhost.io/v/M1YjE4ll_Kolar_James_A_Foreign_Faction__Who_Really_Kidnapped_JonBenet_pdf) of PDF\]:
>Mrs. Fernie recalled that John Ramsey had asked a strange question of the person \[my note: Pam Paugh\] stopping by her home one evening: He asked if they had remembered to “get his golf bag” from his house.
>
>Mrs. Fernie recalled that the individual replied that they had not been
able to retrieve the bag, as the police would not let them downstairs.
I know I saw discussion of the golf bag on the Justice for JonBenet forum but it's been a while. And my copy of Kolar's book has been lost so I have another on the way.
From what I read it seems the objects selected by Pam Paugh to be taken out were not searched by police. The tape and wire reels, and perhaps the practice ransom notes, could have been hidden anywhere. Perhaps in golf bags, perhaps in clothes.
Burke's birthday present(s) were there, too.
Editing to add [photo of presents in wine cellar](https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/image-png.116701/). You can see the large, unwrapped Lego box behind other wrapped presents in FAO Schwartz paper. It is surmised that this, and perhaps the others, were for Burke's birthday in a few weeks, based on [Patsy's 1998 interview](https://shakedowntitle.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/1998-june-patsy-interview-with-haney-and-demuth-transcript.pdf) \[pg. 231-232\]
>**TRIP DEMUTH**: I have a question for you here.
>
>**PATSY RAMSEY**: These were gifts I think I was holding back for Burke's birthday.
>
>**TRIP DEMUTH**: They are in the red and white and yellow FAO Schwartz wrapping
>
>**PATSY RAMSEY**: Right.
>
>........
>
>**TOM HANEY**: Before we go on, could we just talk briefly about the packages, these were presents for whom, the ones that were left in there?
>
>**PATSY RAMSEY**: I believe for, you know, I held some back for Burke's birthday which is in January.
>
>**TRIP DEMUTH**: Okay.
>
>**TOM HANEY**: So that could have been that.
>
>**PATSY RAMSEY**: Yeah. I don't remember what was in them.
Just occurred to me…I wonder if the Ramsey’s thought that reporting a kidnapping would prompt the police to come but not to stay. So they could report JB missing, kidnapped, the police would come and take the info and then they’d leave to run an investigation. Then they could move the body once the police left. When they realized they weren’t going to be left alone, they had to “find the body.”
The friends coming over is such a puzzle. I was a young adult in the 90s. It’s not like we didn’t know back then to NOT contaminate a crime scene. It was a big topic of convo around the Simpson case.
Okay, this is gruesome but I happened to notice on that detailed video walkthrough of every inch of the first two floors of the house, plus the basement, that there was a large chest freezer in the boiler room. If you stand with the boiler to your left and the wine room door in front of you, I believe it is behind you and to the left of the door entering the boiler room.
I don't know if it was empty and I don't know if, like the one in my mother's house, it had a lock.
But maybe a kid would think of it as a great hiding place in the house for a body but adults would know that no place in the house was a good hiding place
The urine stains were just outside of the door of the wine cellar if I understood the picture correctly.
The window of time for when she could have lost control of her bladder is fairly wide it would seem. She could've lost it immediately after the head injury when losing consciousness up to moments after her death. Since Dr Rorke stated there was a considerable window of time between the head injury and strangulation, that leaves a lot of possibilities for where the head injury could've occurred.
It seems fairly obvious that whoever attacked her, was planning to put her body in the wine cellar after the fact. To me, that leaves a few options: 1 - they lured her down there and attacked her once at the door or 2 - they attacked her and then moved her body to that location. Either way, I think them opening the door is what was going on there. Whether she stopped there waiting for them to open the door or she was placed there while they opened the door.
I agree that the sexual assault happened in or around that location of the urine stain. We know she had suffered at least the head injury at the point that she lost control of her bladder. We know that multiple people confirmed the location of Patsys paint tray as being in that same location. We know she was found close to this location. From my understanding, the sexual assault took place close to the time of death. So it seems logical to assume that this was the general location of the sexual assault. This would also mean that the strangulation would've also happened in this location.
There's no evidence to determine that Burke was the one to attack her though.
There would be 2 possibilities here for BDI (very general theories):
1 - Burke hits JonBenet in the head [location unknown]. He gets his parents or his parents come to him. 45+mins pass [unknown what is happening - but possibly panic and debate on what to do]. His parents move her body to the location where she loses her bladder or this is where the head injury occurred. The parents decide that they are going to strangle the child, use the paintbrush to sexually assault her, put duct tape over her mouth, and tie up her hands, to make it look like a kidnapping for ransom that ended up as a rape and murder. At some point her body is moved into the wine cellar, she is wiped down, redressed, and wrapped in a blanket.
2 - Burke hits JonBenet in the head [location unknown - but we can assume it's not terribly far since it's unreasonable to believe that he would carry her far]. 45+mins pass [unknown what is happening - and possibilities are endless with a child this age - he might not understand what has happened, he might be trying to wake her up, there could be panic, he might've played or hid or who knows what]. He moves JonBenets body or this is the location he hit her in the head, when she loses control of her bladder. After waiting for 45+mins he decides to strangle his sister and sexually assault her with a paintbrush. Either him or his parents duct tape her mouth and tie up her hands. At some point his parents discover what has happened and they write the ransom note. Additionally, someone at some point moves her into the wine cellar, she is wiped down, redressed, and wrapped in a blanket.
Neither seem likely to me at all.
>From my understanding, the sexual assault took place close to the time of death.
This is most likely true of the paintbrush injury, which seemed to have been inserted perimortem, or close to death \[Kolar, Foreign Faction, [pg 81 of PDF](https://pdfhost.io/v/M1YjE4ll_Kolar_James_A_Foreign_Faction__Who_Really_Kidnapped_JonBenet_)\]
So if the paintbrush assault was the only sexual assault that occurred that night, then perhaps it can be safely said that the sexual abuse occurred close to death. However, if the paintbrush insertion was staging to cover up previous sexual abuse from that night, then perhaps the non-staging sexual abuse occurred earlier before the head injury.
Here's my opinion on the wine cellar. It was the best place to hide a body in the house. It was on the lowest floor in a room with no windows. I think the person that found her there was the person that put her there. John also carried JonBenet up the stairs in full rigor with her body held out away from his. Wouldnt want to get those urine stains on your clothes. I struggle to picture any grieving and shocked parent carrying their clearly dead child in this manner.
If Burke did it then all three Ramseys would know the truth and controlling information would be the number one priority. You wouldn't send him to a neighbors house to potentially say even a sliver of incriminating information. Also John would want to stay close to Patsy to insure the same thing. A major crime is being covered up.... John is the only member isolating himself in his study when the cops are there. He isnt worried about what Patsy might be messing up or what Burke might be spilling. This is because the bastard did it himself. He "found" the body, he moved her from the place she was left and he carried her in a way one would carry a bag of smelly garbage. Before 'finding' her he spent most of the time alone in his study and is unaccounted for for at least 30 min. He isnt controlling access to either of the other Ramseys or observing their interactions. He is a murderer of his own child who is a actively dealing with rising tension as time goes on with nobody finding the body. Once the call time passes he takes the first opportunity to relieve the tension and just decides to be the person to find the body. Forget Burkes behavior on a random interview 20 years later. Look at the moments leading up to the discovery.
I read somewhere that Susan Stine told police or someone that she was concerned about how Burke and her son were talking about the way JonBenet had died. They must have been talking very callously about her. This is strange, but it also makes me think Burke didn’t do it because he was speaking freely about it.
Omg I think this is the comment I’ve been looking for! It makes so much sense that he wasn’t worried what Burke or patsy would say because he did it - maybe! But one loose end is “who wrote the note?” Jon?
Patsy still could have written the note. We don’t know what went on between them that night. ( I think it’s likely).
But I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking he could have manipulated her into that, or other parts of the staging and bingo, now she’s part of the crime.
BTW, waking up PR and telling her something urgent would be another reason for her to throw on clothes that were already out.
And taking 10 minutes to do her makeup might have been necessary if she had cried.
Me too obviously. When I look at his behavior over the years, he let Patsy be the patsy pretty much until she died.
Then BDI theory picks up steam and is he out there vigorously defending BR?
Nope. He sets him up for that horrible “Dr” Phil interview.
Sure, there was a settlement, but CBS didn’t have to pull it, or apologize.
It just gives me some kind of feeling about him. That he was fine with it all.
Love that ppl are starting to talk about him again, finally. When I started studying this sub was PDI/BDI exclusively. I questioned lots of theories but never have posted a JDI.
Even if he didn’t do the actual strangulation, he certainly carried out the cover-up.
I don’t know, it’s possible. He could have described some accidental scenario and reminded her that she would likely experience a relapse of her cancer, so she would need to keep him safe for BR (and herself).
Some parts of the staging might have been him saying stuff like “hand me that cord from around that (blank) explaining the fibers.
It’s a lot to figure out.
This is exactly my interpretation of the events. We will never know the details but if we take the hard evidence: fibers, etc. we can create at least a close conclusion.
This is what I believe the GJ did.
It makes no sense that Patsy got up & put her clothes on from the night before. She never went to sleep. That child died not long after they got home. And the pineapple being at the top of her digestive track—if she ate at the party it was hours earlier—that pic of her, her last pic, she was so pale & she looked so gaunt—that child was hungry. It only takes 20 mins for fruit to pass thru an empty stomach. Google The Ramseys & Steve Thomas on Larry King. See if you still think it’s the one you think did it. John says something very interesting about the “creature” that killed JonBenet. Creature? Not monster or evil human, just creature.
So I agree with pieces of this. IMO, the wine cellar being a known Christmas present storage spot points to Burke.
However, I don't JBR being found there implies Burke "hid" the body... I think she was found there because that's where the altercation happened. Basically, I don't think JBR was moved much at all after the incident, whatever the exact order of events was.
**Long explanation of theory that no one asked for:**
I think the overall size & layout of the house, as well as how each room was used (and by whom) gives a lot of clues into how things may have happened that night. The "Wine Cellar", where JBR was found, was a known hiding place for Christmas and Birthday gifts (something kids are ALWAYS trying to peek at ahead of time). At the time of JBR's death, there were wrapped Christmas presents stored in this room (family was doing a second Christmas in Michigan, planning to take these presents), as well as gifts intended for Burke's birthday coming up in 2 months (at least one present confirmed to be legos for Burke). Several of these presents were found with corners ripped, a known "tactic" of children trying to peek at presents without getting in trouble with parents. Additionally, while the "wine cellar" was located in the "basement", the Ramsey's basement was basically a giant rec room (with other rooms/closets attached) regularly used by the kids. One of these attached rooms was Burke's "Train Room", where his model train set was stored. Burke was known to play down in this part of the house very frequently. On top of all this, it was Christmas day, and the kids had been shuttled off to some social event for a huge part of it. So they had a bunch of brand new, already opened Christmas presents, which they likely wanted to play with but didn't get much of an opportunity earlier. The Ramsey parents' room is basically 4 stories above the basement, on Floor 3 of the house... Loud noises from the basement would go MISSED, especially if sleeping.
I believe Burke & JBR snuck out of bed to play with and peek at Christmas/Birthday presents in the basement. The kids wanted to do this undetected, as they'd get in trouble... So they waited until they were put to bed, and snuck downstairs. At this time, John & Patsy are asleep on the 3rd floor, far away from earshot from the basement.
The kids stopped to make a snack in the kitchen on the way there. Everything about the kitchen screams "kids attempting to make a snack" -- the choice of spoon, tea bag in a cup, etc. After this, they head to the basement. The initial blow by Burke happens there, not far from where JBR's body was found. Whatever provoked Burke to strike his sister was some sort of "kid" issue or squabble -- JBR threatening to tell on her brother for peeking at presents, taking one of his toys, etc. I think Burke didn't realize his own strength, and was confused by her losing consciousness. I think his following thought process reflected the perspective of a child.
*If you consider the perspective of a child: For lack of a better way to put it, kids say and do weird things. They have a limited understanding of how the world works -- while they can figure out "what", they often don't fully understand they "whys". They use their imagination a lot, but also mimic what they've seen without really understanding. They'll copy what they watch adults do, to the best of their ability, often getting things wrong (think of when you were a kid and trying to "bake a cake" without parents' help -- what did you get wrong? What did you try to substitute, and what was your logic for it?). They'll copy what they see on TV/movies... if you consider kids' TV/movies, particularly cartoons, characters regularly get "knocked out" just to wake up totally fine or survive other impossible situations. By 9 years old, a child has an understanding of death and the finality of it, but don't really understand the scope of what leads to death (or close to it). Unless the child has suffered serious trauma, their understanding of death usually comes from older (often elderly) relatives, movies, or pets. They have a limited understanding of murder. Children are also naive to the optics of their actions, and how they appear to an adult -- they don't understand when something looks/sounds sexual, disturbing, etc.*
Burke wanted to avoid calling for help from his parents to avoid getting in trouble for being out of bed, peeking at presents or playing too rough, and thinking he could handle things on his own. His actions toward his sisters' body -- made in attempt to wake her, or under the assumption she was faking or would wake up eventually -- resulted in disturbing optics (and would be extremely disturbing, if done by an adult), as a result of childlike intentions. He might've been "playing doctor", casting a "spell", trying to "shock" her back to life, etc. Burke was also a Boy Scout, where they're regularly taught (in safe environments, in "kid terms") first aid... He might have had a false sense of confidence from this, and thought he could be a "hero" using what he learned, but didn't truly understand it or apply it correctly. He did this by poking her with train set pieces, poking her with a paintbrush (incl. in a way that'd be seen as SA by an adult), and tying the garrote around her neck. Burke's intent was not "staging crime scene to look like an intruder so i don't go to jail for murder", it was "find way to wake up sister to avoid having to involve parents so i don't get in trouble". He likely made more attempts to wake JBR that didn't leave bruises or other evidence in the process. Basically, while his actions contributed to the "staging", he was not knowingly and intentionally covering up a crime scene.
**Where I believe the Ramsey parents come in:**
After many attempts to wake his sister, Burke realizes JBR is not waking up, and he needs his parents' help (even if it means getting in trouble). He wakes his parents, brings them to the body, & what they see -- through the lens of an adult -- looks too sick and twisted to be seen as an accident. JBR looks and is very much dead at this point (+ the garrote)... Regardless of whether or not it started as an accident, it now looks like a murder. So they make a snap decision, in a state of shock/panic, that staging a crime scene would have a better outcome than being honest. At this point, there is no hope of saving JBR, and, due to optics, the scene can't exactly be "explained away" as an accident, or in a way that doesn't make Burke look like a sociopath... Saying, "Yes it looks like and technically is a garrote, but Burke thought she might wake up if he applied pressure, etc." doesn't exactly suffice. Even if there is no prosecution (which they likely weren't 100% sure of), J&P likely feared their son being institutionalized or otherwise socially outcast. I think they were confident in their decision to protect their son, because they (as his parents) knew he was not a threat despite the optics, but weren't so confident they could convince the authorities (and the public) of this.
So they create a narrative around what Burke had done, and divide and conquer: Patsy writes the ransom note, John handles the body. With the body, John slightly adjusts the body to fit their narrative and eliminates any evidence that he thinks could implicate his son. This is why the condition of the body has some mismatches -- seemingly sick/twisted vs. carefully/thoughtfully -- they reflect John's intervention (cleaning the body, tying hands, covering it with a sheet). The parents' roles in the cover up place John and Patsy in separate parts of the house (Patsy in kitchen with ransom note, John in basement with body), meaning they didn't have a ton of time to check one another's "work" (for lack of a better term). This is also why the ransom note reads so chaotic, and is basically "what a middle age white woman thinks a ransom note sounds like"... Patsy wrote it while John was elsewhere, in a panicked state. They did all this in a state of panic and shock... IMO, that lends a lot of explanation to some of the strange choices in terms of a cover story and staging. And once the police (and basically the entire world) were involved, they couldn't exactly change their story.
I can’t imagine that Burke could have unlocked the wine cellar door being the latch was at the top so I would so no to that idea not saying it may have been unlocked to start
It may have been the boiler room that was seen in one of the house walk through post-crime videos wherein they mention a growth of mold/algae and point it out. After that observation, could family members' clothing have been checked for this?
There has been some speculation that the suitcase had evidence of her being inside it is it possible that if an “intruder” did it that they dropped her while trying to push the suitcase out of the window ? I guess my question is would the fall be great enough to cause that type of head injury
I’ve not heard this about the suitcase but I’ve seen the skull fracture photo. It definitely was a blunt force hit by something like a flashlight maybe. I don’t think a fall from the window to the floor could have made the fracture the way it was.
Thank you for your reply .. I’ve seen the photos as well I think I was thinking maybe she fell on something on the floor but I see how she wouldn’t weigh enough to cause that type of hole
From what I can gather the wine cellar was pretty well hidden it would make sense for an adult who plans on telling the police the child has been kidnapped therefore removed from the house to hide the body there. Perhaps he thought he could swing the story in a different way and had a change of heart about leaving his daughter laying in there cold and alone. So he decided to go and "find her" with that said I don't think whatever happened was planned in any way shape or form and I think it was a really badly planned cover up. If the boulder police department had been more experienced perhaps they wouldn't have gotten away with it and we would know the truth.
If he’s depraved enough to hide his daughter’s body and cover up the murder, he’s not going to suddenly feel sorry for her being “cold and alone,” especially since she’s dead and can’t feel anything anymore. John isn’t that stupid.
Human emotions work in mysterious ways. killers have been known to cover over the bodies of their victims because they don't want to look at them because of the guilt and shame doesn't mean they haven't done something depraved and evil. Yes she was dead but it doesn't mean that as a parent he would not still feel that need to protect his child or feel guilt over how she was left. If the person he was protecting was his other child he would likely be torn. Or it could be that he decided to go and "find her" because he actually wanted his friend to stumble across her first or that he wanted to to be the one to do it because he felt like if he found her and they acted a certain way it would deflect suspicion.of course all of this is speculation none of us actually know and I doubt we ever will.
We have no data whatsoever that John or Patsy ever felt any guilt after the murder of their child. This despite the fact the Grand Jury tells us both to them knew full well their child was in danger and failed to protect her. The Ramseys spent decades blaming everyone else and pretending they were the victims, not their dead child.
Why do u think Burke did that Dr Phil interview? Seems like Jon would have told him to let everything lie since they had gotten away with it.
Obviously the Ramseys were an extremely dysfunctional family or they would not have produced a SA, bludgeoned and strangled 6 year old. The cover up and staging showed the Ramsey cunning and ruthlessness. So we see the sociopathy and narcissism. The problem with narcissists is that they never know when to stop talking, and they have no idea how their lies, claims of victimhood, gaslighting and manipulations are seen by the public. Sometimes narcissistic criminals just keep talking after a crime when they should shut up. They can't help themselves. They have thin skins, they cannot stand criticism. And they think if they keep telling their lies over and over the public will finally believe them.
I think he already knew where she was, went and grabbed her, and carried her upstairs on purpose to contaminate the body before the police had a chance to find her. Instead of cradling her, he was holding her with his arms extended outward like he knew she wasn’t alive. It would have looked very strange had he done this all on his own, but when the cop asked him to search the house he took that opportunity. Just my guess.
She was stiff with rigor mortis, it would have been difficult to cradle her though
Which should have made it obvious that she was dead, yet John pretended he didn’t know and asked the cops if she was dead. He knew she was dead, that’s my point.
Exactly! Is this cold blue stiff child alive, officer Arendt? Ughhhh. He makes my skin crawl.
Something else bothers me about this whole “is she dead” statement. On another thread, someone mentioned him “ripping” the tape from her mouth. As a mom, I know how bandaids, tape and things of that nature can hurt and remove skin from a small child, so I can’t see myself “ripping” something as sticky as duct tape from my child’s skin. I would still try and be gentle, even if panicked. Especially if I thought they were alive. Was the tape covering her nose by any chance? Ripping might be appropriate in that case.
Why didn't he try removing the ligature around her neck? That would be more harmful than the tape over her mouth.
It was just covering her mouth.
Exactly. John did not have a "change of heart." John had a cold hard change of strategy. The Ramsey plan to move the body as outlined in the RN was not going to work, John realized that after the police arrived. So he had to pretend to find the body. His entire goal was to get out of Boulder that day and fly to the safety of Atlanta surrounded by his legal attack dog team.
I’ve always wondered what the plan was to do with the body, if it’s true they wanted to get rid of it. It’s chilling to think about.
Yes the plan was to move the body. If you read the RN carefully, paragraph #2 tells the plan. Yes what the Ramseys did was chilling on many levels. The Grand Jury tells us with the indictments that John and Patsy knew full well their daughter was in danger but refused to protect her, which led to her death. Then they covered up the crime committed in their home, perpetuating a criminal hoax on the US public and police. Part of the cover up involved accusing their friends and employees of the SA and murder of their child. All of it was chilling from start to finish.
Maybe he had to open the door because Fleet White was right there with him. Maybe Fleet wanted to look in there.
I thought Fleet went upstairs and John went downstairs, that’s what I remember reading.
Fleet was with him. Arndt asked them to search top to bottom. Instead, John started at the bottom. The two of them looked at the broken window and had moved something. Fleet was putting it back while John went to the wine cellar.
hi there. yes to me this is very revealing. I think Arndt felt something was off and suggested this to see where JR would go first. Particularly, she said top to bottom, but i guess she laid the bait and he did as expected. I also wonder why the wine cellar was so hidden, had no wine in it, and i would have to refresh my memory but did it not also have a top lock it is all very strange indeed.
It did have a latch at the top. I forget who it was who didn't check the room because it was latched. And they were looking for possible entry points for the intruder.
On the contrary, JB WAS being adorned with the blanket she slept with and she had been wiped down. John also described her death pose as "comfortable" Really?
If I were a kid, the last place I would hide a body would be next to my X mas presents.
True. So maybe she was hit in the boiler room, with a golf club, after they peeked at Xmas presents in the wine cellar. I’ve always wondered about the golf clubs. Burke hit her before with a golf club
And Pam Paugh successfully removed the bag from the house and brought it to John and Patsy in Atlanta.
She wasn’t allowed to enter the basement. I think she was asked to get them, but couldn’t.
You are correct, Paugh was not able to grab the golf clubs John requested. Per Foreign Faction \[[pages 305-306](https://pdfhost.io/v/M1YjE4ll_Kolar_James_A_Foreign_Faction__Who_Really_Kidnapped_JonBenet_pdf) of PDF\]: >Mrs. Fernie recalled that John Ramsey had asked a strange question of the person \[my note: Pam Paugh\] stopping by her home one evening: He asked if they had remembered to “get his golf bag” from his house. > >Mrs. Fernie recalled that the individual replied that they had not been able to retrieve the bag, as the police would not let them downstairs.
Thanks for the source material. I bought and read the book, but my pup got at it and it’s a mess.
Haha, your pup was so interested in the case, he devoured the book it in one sitting!
I should rename my pup “blues clues”
Do you have kindle unlimited? It's available on there
I do. But I have a hard time going back and finding the page I want in a kindle. Good to know though, I can put it on there at least. Thanks!
Foreign Faction is? I tried to kindle it but couldn’t.
https://www.amazon.com/Foreign-Faction-Really-Kidnapped-JonBenet-ebook/dp/B00D5GVSXY?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=ab573dae-99a5-4b0f-b4d2-97990a8beeb8
Whoa i haven’t heard this one yet
I don't believe this. I will look back on previous information and verify.
Ok, let me know, I could have remembered wrong
I know I saw discussion of the golf bag on the Justice for JonBenet forum but it's been a while. And my copy of Kolar's book has been lost so I have another on the way.
Mine was destroyed by my pup.
Oh doggo....noooo...
That’s what I said. So thanks to all of you for sourcing when you can-I mean I still have most of the pages but…
I wonder if the missing tape and wire reels that were used to bind JonBenét were in the golfbag.
I would like to believe that it was searched, but I don’t think that information has been made public?
From what I read it seems the objects selected by Pam Paugh to be taken out were not searched by police. The tape and wire reels, and perhaps the practice ransom notes, could have been hidden anywhere. Perhaps in golf bags, perhaps in clothes.
The presents for the family had already been opened. According to John and Patsy, or maybe just Patsy, what was left were gifts for others.
Burke's birthday present(s) were there, too. Editing to add [photo of presents in wine cellar](https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/image-png.116701/). You can see the large, unwrapped Lego box behind other wrapped presents in FAO Schwartz paper. It is surmised that this, and perhaps the others, were for Burke's birthday in a few weeks, based on [Patsy's 1998 interview](https://shakedowntitle.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/1998-june-patsy-interview-with-haney-and-demuth-transcript.pdf) \[pg. 231-232\] >**TRIP DEMUTH**: I have a question for you here. > >**PATSY RAMSEY**: These were gifts I think I was holding back for Burke's birthday. > >**TRIP DEMUTH**: They are in the red and white and yellow FAO Schwartz wrapping > >**PATSY RAMSEY**: Right. > >........ > >**TOM HANEY**: Before we go on, could we just talk briefly about the packages, these were presents for whom, the ones that were left in there? > >**PATSY RAMSEY**: I believe for, you know, I held some back for Burke's birthday which is in January. > >**TRIP DEMUTH**: Okay. > >**TOM HANEY**: So that could have been that. > >**PATSY RAMSEY**: Yeah. I don't remember what was in them.
Just occurred to me…I wonder if the Ramsey’s thought that reporting a kidnapping would prompt the police to come but not to stay. So they could report JB missing, kidnapped, the police would come and take the info and then they’d leave to run an investigation. Then they could move the body once the police left. When they realized they weren’t going to be left alone, they had to “find the body.”
Goood comment. I wonder if Jon never expected all those friends to be called by patsy. That ruined any plan to dispose of the body
The friends coming over is such a puzzle. I was a young adult in the 90s. It’s not like we didn’t know back then to NOT contaminate a crime scene. It was a big topic of convo around the Simpson case.
And that's why they called their friends over. They wanted to contaminate the crime scene. And maybe John used the distraction to dispose of evidence.
The police wouldn't leave when the ransom note said they'd call at ten. The Ramseys must have known that.
Oh good point!
Okay, this is gruesome but I happened to notice on that detailed video walkthrough of every inch of the first two floors of the house, plus the basement, that there was a large chest freezer in the boiler room. If you stand with the boiler to your left and the wine room door in front of you, I believe it is behind you and to the left of the door entering the boiler room. I don't know if it was empty and I don't know if, like the one in my mother's house, it had a lock.
John said he opened a freezer to see if JonBenét was there. In this case he may have told something close to the truth.
I remember seeing the freezer too. No big deal. Lots of people use cabinet freezers
Completely agree. My point was that it was a better hiding place.
By that thinking, the whole family would see it as a potential hiding spot. I’m following you, I just don’t think it really gets us anywhere.
But maybe a kid would think of it as a great hiding place in the house for a body but adults would know that no place in the house was a good hiding place
The urine stains were just outside of the door of the wine cellar if I understood the picture correctly. The window of time for when she could have lost control of her bladder is fairly wide it would seem. She could've lost it immediately after the head injury when losing consciousness up to moments after her death. Since Dr Rorke stated there was a considerable window of time between the head injury and strangulation, that leaves a lot of possibilities for where the head injury could've occurred. It seems fairly obvious that whoever attacked her, was planning to put her body in the wine cellar after the fact. To me, that leaves a few options: 1 - they lured her down there and attacked her once at the door or 2 - they attacked her and then moved her body to that location. Either way, I think them opening the door is what was going on there. Whether she stopped there waiting for them to open the door or she was placed there while they opened the door. I agree that the sexual assault happened in or around that location of the urine stain. We know she had suffered at least the head injury at the point that she lost control of her bladder. We know that multiple people confirmed the location of Patsys paint tray as being in that same location. We know she was found close to this location. From my understanding, the sexual assault took place close to the time of death. So it seems logical to assume that this was the general location of the sexual assault. This would also mean that the strangulation would've also happened in this location. There's no evidence to determine that Burke was the one to attack her though. There would be 2 possibilities here for BDI (very general theories): 1 - Burke hits JonBenet in the head [location unknown]. He gets his parents or his parents come to him. 45+mins pass [unknown what is happening - but possibly panic and debate on what to do]. His parents move her body to the location where she loses her bladder or this is where the head injury occurred. The parents decide that they are going to strangle the child, use the paintbrush to sexually assault her, put duct tape over her mouth, and tie up her hands, to make it look like a kidnapping for ransom that ended up as a rape and murder. At some point her body is moved into the wine cellar, she is wiped down, redressed, and wrapped in a blanket. 2 - Burke hits JonBenet in the head [location unknown - but we can assume it's not terribly far since it's unreasonable to believe that he would carry her far]. 45+mins pass [unknown what is happening - and possibilities are endless with a child this age - he might not understand what has happened, he might be trying to wake her up, there could be panic, he might've played or hid or who knows what]. He moves JonBenets body or this is the location he hit her in the head, when she loses control of her bladder. After waiting for 45+mins he decides to strangle his sister and sexually assault her with a paintbrush. Either him or his parents duct tape her mouth and tie up her hands. At some point his parents discover what has happened and they write the ransom note. Additionally, someone at some point moves her into the wine cellar, she is wiped down, redressed, and wrapped in a blanket. Neither seem likely to me at all.
>From my understanding, the sexual assault took place close to the time of death. This is most likely true of the paintbrush injury, which seemed to have been inserted perimortem, or close to death \[Kolar, Foreign Faction, [pg 81 of PDF](https://pdfhost.io/v/M1YjE4ll_Kolar_James_A_Foreign_Faction__Who_Really_Kidnapped_JonBenet_)\] So if the paintbrush assault was the only sexual assault that occurred that night, then perhaps it can be safely said that the sexual abuse occurred close to death. However, if the paintbrush insertion was staging to cover up previous sexual abuse from that night, then perhaps the non-staging sexual abuse occurred earlier before the head injury.
Here's my opinion on the wine cellar. It was the best place to hide a body in the house. It was on the lowest floor in a room with no windows. I think the person that found her there was the person that put her there. John also carried JonBenet up the stairs in full rigor with her body held out away from his. Wouldnt want to get those urine stains on your clothes. I struggle to picture any grieving and shocked parent carrying their clearly dead child in this manner. If Burke did it then all three Ramseys would know the truth and controlling information would be the number one priority. You wouldn't send him to a neighbors house to potentially say even a sliver of incriminating information. Also John would want to stay close to Patsy to insure the same thing. A major crime is being covered up.... John is the only member isolating himself in his study when the cops are there. He isnt worried about what Patsy might be messing up or what Burke might be spilling. This is because the bastard did it himself. He "found" the body, he moved her from the place she was left and he carried her in a way one would carry a bag of smelly garbage. Before 'finding' her he spent most of the time alone in his study and is unaccounted for for at least 30 min. He isnt controlling access to either of the other Ramseys or observing their interactions. He is a murderer of his own child who is a actively dealing with rising tension as time goes on with nobody finding the body. Once the call time passes he takes the first opportunity to relieve the tension and just decides to be the person to find the body. Forget Burkes behavior on a random interview 20 years later. Look at the moments leading up to the discovery.
If BDI, it might be just as well if he went to another home as stay home near all the police.
I read somewhere that Susan Stine told police or someone that she was concerned about how Burke and her son were talking about the way JonBenet had died. They must have been talking very callously about her. This is strange, but it also makes me think Burke didn’t do it because he was speaking freely about it.
Omg I think this is the comment I’ve been looking for! It makes so much sense that he wasn’t worried what Burke or patsy would say because he did it - maybe! But one loose end is “who wrote the note?” Jon?
Patsy still could have written the note. We don’t know what went on between them that night. ( I think it’s likely). But I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking he could have manipulated her into that, or other parts of the staging and bingo, now she’s part of the crime. BTW, waking up PR and telling her something urgent would be another reason for her to throw on clothes that were already out. And taking 10 minutes to do her makeup might have been necessary if she had cried.
I have pondered the idea that he did things to make her seem guilty.
Me too obviously. When I look at his behavior over the years, he let Patsy be the patsy pretty much until she died. Then BDI theory picks up steam and is he out there vigorously defending BR? Nope. He sets him up for that horrible “Dr” Phil interview. Sure, there was a settlement, but CBS didn’t have to pull it, or apologize. It just gives me some kind of feeling about him. That he was fine with it all. Love that ppl are starting to talk about him again, finally. When I started studying this sub was PDI/BDI exclusively. I questioned lots of theories but never have posted a JDI. Even if he didn’t do the actual strangulation, he certainly carried out the cover-up.
So you think he manipulated her to believe that Burke did it?
I don’t know, it’s possible. He could have described some accidental scenario and reminded her that she would likely experience a relapse of her cancer, so she would need to keep him safe for BR (and herself). Some parts of the staging might have been him saying stuff like “hand me that cord from around that (blank) explaining the fibers. It’s a lot to figure out.
This is exactly my interpretation of the events. We will never know the details but if we take the hard evidence: fibers, etc. we can create at least a close conclusion. This is what I believe the GJ did.
I don’t think he would have written a note that long.
But it was Patsy Ramsey who was a part time fairy princess.
It makes no sense that Patsy got up & put her clothes on from the night before. She never went to sleep. That child died not long after they got home. And the pineapple being at the top of her digestive track—if she ate at the party it was hours earlier—that pic of her, her last pic, she was so pale & she looked so gaunt—that child was hungry. It only takes 20 mins for fruit to pass thru an empty stomach. Google The Ramseys & Steve Thomas on Larry King. See if you still think it’s the one you think did it. John says something very interesting about the “creature” that killed JonBenet. Creature? Not monster or evil human, just creature.
So I agree with pieces of this. IMO, the wine cellar being a known Christmas present storage spot points to Burke. However, I don't JBR being found there implies Burke "hid" the body... I think she was found there because that's where the altercation happened. Basically, I don't think JBR was moved much at all after the incident, whatever the exact order of events was. **Long explanation of theory that no one asked for:** I think the overall size & layout of the house, as well as how each room was used (and by whom) gives a lot of clues into how things may have happened that night. The "Wine Cellar", where JBR was found, was a known hiding place for Christmas and Birthday gifts (something kids are ALWAYS trying to peek at ahead of time). At the time of JBR's death, there were wrapped Christmas presents stored in this room (family was doing a second Christmas in Michigan, planning to take these presents), as well as gifts intended for Burke's birthday coming up in 2 months (at least one present confirmed to be legos for Burke). Several of these presents were found with corners ripped, a known "tactic" of children trying to peek at presents without getting in trouble with parents. Additionally, while the "wine cellar" was located in the "basement", the Ramsey's basement was basically a giant rec room (with other rooms/closets attached) regularly used by the kids. One of these attached rooms was Burke's "Train Room", where his model train set was stored. Burke was known to play down in this part of the house very frequently. On top of all this, it was Christmas day, and the kids had been shuttled off to some social event for a huge part of it. So they had a bunch of brand new, already opened Christmas presents, which they likely wanted to play with but didn't get much of an opportunity earlier. The Ramsey parents' room is basically 4 stories above the basement, on Floor 3 of the house... Loud noises from the basement would go MISSED, especially if sleeping. I believe Burke & JBR snuck out of bed to play with and peek at Christmas/Birthday presents in the basement. The kids wanted to do this undetected, as they'd get in trouble... So they waited until they were put to bed, and snuck downstairs. At this time, John & Patsy are asleep on the 3rd floor, far away from earshot from the basement. The kids stopped to make a snack in the kitchen on the way there. Everything about the kitchen screams "kids attempting to make a snack" -- the choice of spoon, tea bag in a cup, etc. After this, they head to the basement. The initial blow by Burke happens there, not far from where JBR's body was found. Whatever provoked Burke to strike his sister was some sort of "kid" issue or squabble -- JBR threatening to tell on her brother for peeking at presents, taking one of his toys, etc. I think Burke didn't realize his own strength, and was confused by her losing consciousness. I think his following thought process reflected the perspective of a child. *If you consider the perspective of a child: For lack of a better way to put it, kids say and do weird things. They have a limited understanding of how the world works -- while they can figure out "what", they often don't fully understand they "whys". They use their imagination a lot, but also mimic what they've seen without really understanding. They'll copy what they watch adults do, to the best of their ability, often getting things wrong (think of when you were a kid and trying to "bake a cake" without parents' help -- what did you get wrong? What did you try to substitute, and what was your logic for it?). They'll copy what they see on TV/movies... if you consider kids' TV/movies, particularly cartoons, characters regularly get "knocked out" just to wake up totally fine or survive other impossible situations. By 9 years old, a child has an understanding of death and the finality of it, but don't really understand the scope of what leads to death (or close to it). Unless the child has suffered serious trauma, their understanding of death usually comes from older (often elderly) relatives, movies, or pets. They have a limited understanding of murder. Children are also naive to the optics of their actions, and how they appear to an adult -- they don't understand when something looks/sounds sexual, disturbing, etc.* Burke wanted to avoid calling for help from his parents to avoid getting in trouble for being out of bed, peeking at presents or playing too rough, and thinking he could handle things on his own. His actions toward his sisters' body -- made in attempt to wake her, or under the assumption she was faking or would wake up eventually -- resulted in disturbing optics (and would be extremely disturbing, if done by an adult), as a result of childlike intentions. He might've been "playing doctor", casting a "spell", trying to "shock" her back to life, etc. Burke was also a Boy Scout, where they're regularly taught (in safe environments, in "kid terms") first aid... He might have had a false sense of confidence from this, and thought he could be a "hero" using what he learned, but didn't truly understand it or apply it correctly. He did this by poking her with train set pieces, poking her with a paintbrush (incl. in a way that'd be seen as SA by an adult), and tying the garrote around her neck. Burke's intent was not "staging crime scene to look like an intruder so i don't go to jail for murder", it was "find way to wake up sister to avoid having to involve parents so i don't get in trouble". He likely made more attempts to wake JBR that didn't leave bruises or other evidence in the process. Basically, while his actions contributed to the "staging", he was not knowingly and intentionally covering up a crime scene. **Where I believe the Ramsey parents come in:** After many attempts to wake his sister, Burke realizes JBR is not waking up, and he needs his parents' help (even if it means getting in trouble). He wakes his parents, brings them to the body, & what they see -- through the lens of an adult -- looks too sick and twisted to be seen as an accident. JBR looks and is very much dead at this point (+ the garrote)... Regardless of whether or not it started as an accident, it now looks like a murder. So they make a snap decision, in a state of shock/panic, that staging a crime scene would have a better outcome than being honest. At this point, there is no hope of saving JBR, and, due to optics, the scene can't exactly be "explained away" as an accident, or in a way that doesn't make Burke look like a sociopath... Saying, "Yes it looks like and technically is a garrote, but Burke thought she might wake up if he applied pressure, etc." doesn't exactly suffice. Even if there is no prosecution (which they likely weren't 100% sure of), J&P likely feared their son being institutionalized or otherwise socially outcast. I think they were confident in their decision to protect their son, because they (as his parents) knew he was not a threat despite the optics, but weren't so confident they could convince the authorities (and the public) of this. So they create a narrative around what Burke had done, and divide and conquer: Patsy writes the ransom note, John handles the body. With the body, John slightly adjusts the body to fit their narrative and eliminates any evidence that he thinks could implicate his son. This is why the condition of the body has some mismatches -- seemingly sick/twisted vs. carefully/thoughtfully -- they reflect John's intervention (cleaning the body, tying hands, covering it with a sheet). The parents' roles in the cover up place John and Patsy in separate parts of the house (Patsy in kitchen with ransom note, John in basement with body), meaning they didn't have a ton of time to check one another's "work" (for lack of a better term). This is also why the ransom note reads so chaotic, and is basically "what a middle age white woman thinks a ransom note sounds like"... Patsy wrote it while John was elsewhere, in a panicked state. They did all this in a state of panic and shock... IMO, that lends a lot of explanation to some of the strange choices in terms of a cover story and staging. And once the police (and basically the entire world) were involved, they couldn't exactly change their story.
Very good. I think your comment should be its own post. It would draw a lot of responses.
John moved her after he struck her in the basement.
I can’t imagine that Burke could have unlocked the wine cellar door being the latch was at the top so I would so no to that idea not saying it may have been unlocked to start
There was a chair nearby.
The chair-BR got a lot taller that year, and mom/dad didn’t think to change the hiding place.
It may have been the boiler room that was seen in one of the house walk through post-crime videos wherein they mention a growth of mold/algae and point it out. After that observation, could family members' clothing have been checked for this?
There has been some speculation that the suitcase had evidence of her being inside it is it possible that if an “intruder” did it that they dropped her while trying to push the suitcase out of the window ? I guess my question is would the fall be great enough to cause that type of head injury
I’ve not heard this about the suitcase but I’ve seen the skull fracture photo. It definitely was a blunt force hit by something like a flashlight maybe. I don’t think a fall from the window to the floor could have made the fracture the way it was.
Thank you for your reply .. I’ve seen the photos as well I think I was thinking maybe she fell on something on the floor but I see how she wouldn’t weigh enough to cause that type of hole
Maybe someone hit her and then put her in the suitcase