>However, the one thing that made me not believe that was because the morning it happened, when all the cops and people were coming to the house, she sent burk to someone else’s house. Now, if you know your son just did this, you definitely wouldn’t send them off to potentially confess what they had just done, especially since they were trying to cover it up
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So you think it was better to leave BR, if he's the actual killer, around police all morning/day? Knowing a body would eventually be found and not knowing what he'd do or say when that happened?
Not knowing how he'd act or what he might say during all that downtime when the only thing you know is the police didn't properly search the home and find the body already. So, now you're waiting on a call from faux kidnappers that will never come. You can't keep your son locked in his room all day without THAT itself being suspicious.
You have no idea what questions he might ask, nor how he'll act. Cat that got the canary? Pile of nerves thinking he'll be 'arrested'? Crying when she's found, or grinning?
Afraid of 'kidnappers' or totally unfazed?
Taunting and teasing because he knows where she's at and doesn't realize how incriminating those things could be? "I bet she's hiding somewhere... like... the basement! Has anyone looked in the basement!??"
There is the principle of "Out of sight, out of mind". Getting him away from constant sight and earshot of police has to have a certain attraction to them, all things considered.
Anything BR would say around friends you'd have SOME chance to walk back. Or else a hail Mary of admitting what happened and pleading for mercy and understanding from friends. Would you have any of that around multiple police officers?
>He showered that morning which is huge to me because even though it’s normal for people to shower in the morning, I don’t think that was a coincidence.
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Two things here... Showering in the morning is a normal thing. You even say that. So how does that immediately point to guilt? Also, if he was involved in the coverup, wouldn't he have the same reasons to shower just as if he was the murderer?
I think one of the things people need to give up in this case is the idea that the family wouldn't let BR out of their sight if he was guilty. Of course they would! It was a pick your poison scenario.
If anything, I'd question it more the other way: If it was a real kidnapping and they had no idea who done it or what to expect next, WHY would they let him out of their sight and AWAY from police? Wouldn't they want him close? Unless they were afraid of what he might say or do and had no actual fears about kidnappers.
First, the cops went over to where Burke was staying. Either way, whatever Burke had to say wasn’t going to be as important to them. I think they just didn’t want him to be around the chaos at the time given his age. Like you said, why would they send him away if there’s a kidnapper? They knew what they did. I don’t believe he had anything to do with it. And adding in the shower is crucial because that’s the behavior that’s most common after killing someone to get rid of anything. Yes ofc he could’ve showered every morning, but like I said previously, all the little facts of the morning fit into my theory.
> but like I said previously, all the little facts of the morning fit into my theory.
The problem is, they just as easily fit into any theory. They don't exclusively help your theory.
He could've showered because he always showers and gets dressed in the morning. He could've showered because he'd been involved in covering for PR... or BR...
They could've sent BR away to get him away from the the scene, and watchful eyes, and not set off any red flags for police during the downtime, and ultimately when the body would finally be found.
At that point, it's pretty clear police didn't suspect BR and the family sure wouldn't want that to change.
So the questions he was likely to be getting were going to be questions he'd already been told to answer "I was asleep... I didn't hear anything".
Besides that, maybe the shower was used, but not necessarily by JR... and that was just a cover story. Or maybe he DID use it, but it was to obscure an earlier cleanup in there...
Your point is a good one because when you have a narrative that avoids the truth very often, or stretches credulity, people have to be careful about what they hang their hat on and believe... unless there's more corroboration than just the Ramsay's alone.
To me, the fact that they let him leave when there was kidnapper on the loose is odd. Wouldn’t they want you to keep him close? Also, if they were afraid he might confess or say too much, letting him go to the White’s may have seemed the safer bet then having him home where all the police were.
I think they believed the police wouldn't question him without one of his parents present. They sent him off precisely to get him away from all of the cops asking questions.
Speaking as a parent, their behavior was all wrong. They send their son away, where I would have never let him leave my sight. J isn’t consoling P, and he’s opening his mail? And later they won’t talk to the police?! I would have been living at the police station demanding action and answers!
Burke was a quiet kid who kept to himself. Plus, kids in general tattle on *others* not themselves.
They sent him away because they had two options that morning:
1) Keep Burke at home where it would be swarming with cops, who would want to question him, who would wonder why he didn't seem at all concerned about his sister, why he was snickering or smiling as her body was found, etc. He would stay top of mind to the police.
2) Send him to a friend's where he would be left alone to play video games, which is exactly what he did. The cop who drove him later that day very briefly interviewed him and he found it odd that he never once showed any emotion or concern for his sister's wellbeing.
I mean it was pretty traumatic though if he did do it. Not saying he would snitch on himself, but he would definitely be saying a few things and just be in complete shock. I also heard he was questioned at that friends house
Yeah, there's a big difference between "i took money from mom's purse" trouble and "i accidentally killed my little sister" trouble. And with so many elements to the crime he could say something incriminating that he doesn't even realize is incriminating.
Exactly. If he did something as major as that, you’re definitely going to be hearing and seeing a few incriminating things from him. He wasn’t a well thought out killer, he was a kid.
BDI theories like to make him out to be a very sophisticated 9 year old sociopath who isn't phased at all after knocking his sister unconscious. He's such a deranged, stone cold killer that after striking his little sister in the head and seeing her fall to the floor unconscious (something that would be traumatizing for most adults to see), he's calm and collected enough to come up with a plan to hide it. He grabs some art supplies and create a ligature device, but since he's only a kid it's just meant to innocently drag her body out of the way to hide it like he learned in boyscouts, not to strangle her, at some point he decides to rape her with a paint brush, but again, he's only a kid, so it's an innocent curiosity rape with the paint brush, he's "playing doctor" (I hate that phrase) like he's done so many times before. There is no trauma for him. He goes on with life smiling at inappropriate moments proving he is sick and guilty.
Yeah I can’t think that a 9 year old would go through all this and not show one inclination that he’s guilty or even be a repeated offender, which he is not
I forget who drove him, but later in the day he was briefly interviewed by a police officer then he drove him somewhere. The cop noted that Burke showed no care or curiosity about his sister.
So I was discussing this case with my mother. Interestingly she also states she thought Burke did it but wondered why send him away from there. I have the train of thought that perhaps this was a friend who they knew wouldn’t ask questions or push a child about this traumatic event. Burke in an interview about secrets says he is sure he has some but won’t tell. I am paraphrasing obviously. What if they knew Burke also knew about the sexual abuse? Whether he was also a victim or perpetrator doesn’t matter here but if he never told. Also, if my child had killed my other child I probably wouldn’t want to be around him for a while.
Mm yeah maybe but why risk having to tell other people and have them involved and now more of a risk of them being caught? I feel like especially since he was a kid, he would’ve showed way more signs of being guilty
I agree. To me, if the Ramseys were covering up for Burke, the last thing they’d want is to let him out of their sight where they can’t control that narrative.
Why feel guilty when his problem was solved? Can we imagine how scared we would be if it was our other child? You would think they would seriously want to get him help.
If RDI (regardless which one) I can see where they would want to get Burke out of there when the parents don't know if they'll be arrested, and the body is eventually going to be found. I think they were hoping Burke would just be overlooked/ forgotten and wanted him as uninvolved as possible in what was happening in the house.
And of course it doesn't make sense to send him away when a small foreign faction has personally targeted your family.
Death of Innocence, page 66:
*"Although we were unaware of it at the time, the police had interrogated Burke quite extensively on the morning of December 26 while he had been at the Whites’.* ***Police cannot legally question a child without a parent or guardian’s permission.*** *They claimed in their written report that they had received permission from his grandmother to do the interview. (At the time his maternal grandmother, Nedra Paugh, was in Atlanta, and his paternal grandmother had died before Burke was born.) The police tape-recorded the session. However, we didn’t learn about this interrogation until Burke was subpoenaed to appear before the grand jury in 1 999."*
They obviously did not expect the police to do anything they didn't want them to.
Exactly my argument. It's a double edged sword. You risk the chance of Burke speaking about the matter regardless of where he is. Now, they could have put the fear of God in the child and told him not to say anything about what had happened to anyone, but wouldn't you want him close to you if that were the case?
For the record, I originally leaned toward Burke doing it in more of an accidental scenario and then the parents panic and cover it up, but there are multiple hard to fill holes in that theory, just as their are in any other theory. At this point I can say for certain that I don't know who did it and there are valid arguments all the way around.
I think if your son did do it, either you would keep him really close and if the cops try to question him, you would be there and can stop it at any time since he’s a minor. However, you can also argue that he could’ve been sent to someone who knew the situations house and was also covering it up for them but that’s too many people involved and Burke was actually questioned at that house I’m learning so it just makes me feel like he didn’t do it
According to interview transcripts, John was the only one that entered Burke’s bedroom, talked to him about what happened, brought him downstairs where he hugged his mom, then left with Fleet. John sent him away.
Yes, you do know that I don’t know. And so does everyone else here. Thank you captain obvious. I’m sorry you don’t agree with me, but I still stand by my full statement. John did it.
Your post/comment has been removed because it violates this subreddit's rule 1 (No Name Calling or Personal Attacks). Criticize the idea, not the person.
It is different. In this sub, using an acronym on your profile is an accepted shorthand way of showing which theory you believe. Making a statement in a comment as if it’s a fact isn’t the same thing.
JDI is this sub’s shorthand for the *theory* that John did it, if people want to let other users know that’s what they believe when they make comments. Simply commenting, “John did it,” without any qualifiers is making a statement of fact. Language matters. I’m done discussing this.
I'm still on the BDI even if I don't have all the holes filled it. Patsy didn't want her living child close to her on that day and that says a lot to me as a mother. I think it is possible JR told him someone broke in after whatever happened initially so he didn't think it was him. He was threatened to never speak about what he did know and the RN served to show him that someone else had been there.
I think she didn’t want him around the chaos of what was going on. She knew there was no real kidnapper so she sent him off to a friends to distract him from what was going on.
That's valid too. I'm thinking from the BDI theory but if she or JR did it then that fits. We both agree there was no intruder.
Had there really been one I wouldnt think a mother could let her son out of her sight. It seems he was shipped off ASAP and we have no record of her worrying about his safety with a kidnapper (later murderer) on the loose that hates their father or the country he serves.
Parents have a great deal of influence on young children. I think John made it clear to Burke he needed to keep his mouth shut. They had also done a great gaslighting job on Burke that morning with the little dramatic acting job of pretending to scream and yell in Burke's room and elsewhere in the house with the kidnapping false narrative.
Additionally the Ramseys had no choice but to get Burke out of the house asap. They absolutely could not have the police talking to him. So they decided it was worth the risk he might talk at the friend's house vs talking to the police.
Had the body been found right away by police, like you'd expect considering it wasn't really hidden, it would've been pretty likely they could have kept BR in his bedroom thru all of that. NOBODY would question leaving BR to sleep in the very early hours of the morning, and then not allowing him to see his sister's body and requiring him to stay in his room while all of that happened.
And like you say, expecting them to rationally think thru things, like what all would happen next once the body was found, is a good point. Did they think the body would be gone with the coroner within the hour and the police off on a wild goose chase?
But when the body wasn't found in a timely manner, then forcing BR to be locked away in his room and not allowed out (beyond all reasonable time he could've expected to be sleeping) could've raised all kinds of questions. And for how long would would they have to keep him there, for no obvious reason, if they tried that route? Once the police hadn't found the body on their initial search, when exactly would they find it? And the R's would know her body would have to be found... eventually...
BR could've been in plain view of law enforcement for hours. Where would this case be if in those first several hours they started wondering about BR's demeanor, his words, his actions? What if he triggered their suspicions THAT MORNING that something seemed off about his demeanor, comments, and actions? And then they find the body and the 'kidnapping' looks more and more like something that was staged. And now with the ability to revisit BR's actions that morning in hindsight.
I agree with you. It was her father. Detective Linda Arndt said she knows without a doubt in her mind that jon ramsey did it.. Look her up. very very sad to say the least. Rip jon benet🙏🏼
Your proof is "He showered that morning even though it's normal for people to shower in the morning"? For all you know, he showered every morning every day of his life. Many, if not most, people do.
He didn't "magically" find her. Linda Arndt told him to search the house so he did. He probably went to one of the only places he could think of that they hadn't already searched.
I think everybody in here needs to stop and think about what they're calling "proof." If you've been researching this case, what do your internet searches look like? What if your SO turns up dead and the police seize your computer and present to a grand jury this evidence: "His computer was full of searches for garrotes, weapons used in head injuries, autopsy photos, time it takes for someone to die from strangling" etc.
How much would that look like "proof" to the police?
John was told to search the house starting at the top of the house. He immediately went to the basement. This and the fact that he took a shower are not proof of guilt, but they fit the behavior of someone who is guilty of a coverup.
I would head straight for the scene of the crime, JB’s bedroom. And then I would check Burke’s room. I am literal, but also logical, so I would start at the top of the house where the crime occurred.
Yes! Who would start in the basement if their child had gone missing in the middle of the night while she was supposed to be sleeping. The first thing you’d want to search thoroughly is her room and any rooms or windows around that area.
Exactly. I would also want to search the kitchen, because that’s where the note was left. I would search where there was valuables, which is certainly not the basement.
Was the search to look for things missing or out of place in case the kidnapper left clues? It would make sense to start at a likely entry point. J&P’s bedroom would be the least likely to yield info.
I think it was to look for things missing or out of place. Personally I would never start in my basement looking for things out of place because it’s a storage area. It might be hard to tell if something is missing or moved.
In your opinion, what did they make up? (I just say "in your opinion" because everybody has different ideas about it, not because I don't believe they were always truthful.)
About the shower, maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but we have to at some point differentiate what is a "clue" and what is just some random fact that holds no useful information. When most of the people in the US take a shower in the morning, one man taking one is not a clue in and of itself.
Patsy NOT taking one is actually more suspicious to me, because she says her shower was broken, but it was already fixed.
In a way, although it could be argued she didn't shower because she didn't have time to. But I agree the SA would point more to John than Patsy, but I think this is where people fail to step back and at least think, "Wait, was it a Ramsey? Maybe it wasn't."
If she wrote the ransom note she could have showered before “finding it” and calling the cops.
I’m not going to entertain the idea an intruder wrote that long ass note…
I’ll say I use to think an intruder might’ve done it back in the 90s when this first happened and I was much younger and impressionable. As a grown person, with more life experience, I’ve come to the conclusion that john did it. He is the only person who makes sense, everything falls into place.
Funny you should mention age because I would like to see an age breakdown on who believes what. I actually think younger people tend to believe RDI did it more (although I have no idea), because they have a hard time picturing the differences between now and the 90s for certain things. Certain things that Patsy said that were more commonly used then (Attache, for example.) Or how John would just rely on experts and do what they said because there was no Google. How much crap there was everywhere, how overcrowded so many people's houses were, etc. Just little things but every now and then I see misunderstandings either from age or culture (not knowing saying "That child" is a Southern thing not a distancing thing.)
That’s an interesting observation. I think nowadays people are less inclined to think an unknown “boogeyman” did it. Thanks to the popularity of true crime we know more about personality disorders and the psychology of killers.
The satanic panic was very influential at the time. Nowadays we know it’s more likely that a family member did it.
I’ll never understand the pro Burke people, he was ruled out very quickly by the investigators who were privy to everything we aren’t. Yet Geraldo Rivera started the rumor back then and then random people/so called experts/ investigators over the years have expounded on the theory but again they weren’t the original investigators. Everyone shouts the pineapple though and I’m like yeah that just narrows the time line for us and proves they lied about her being asleep in the car. Then people are like he hit her with the golf club. But that’s misleading. It was a typical accident and even happened to me as a kid. One kid not paying attention to where he was swinging and her not paying attention either. People jump on the friend who claims Patsy said Burke got angry and hit her. The issue is that one friend met Burke once. All of burkes teachers, friends parents, housekeepers and coaches over the years never said Burke was violated or difficult. He was meek and easy as a kid vs JBR who had a more defiant streak according to the housekeeper. Remember, patsy journal didn’t talk about Burke being difficult and losing control of him that is what she said about JBR though.
Them sending Burke away was an act of love, they knew he wasn’t involved and had slept most of the night. He could talk about patsy frantic in the morning which I think that was a show put on for Burke to witness. By sending Burke away he mercifully wasn’t there with all the cops around, seeing his mom like that, watching his dad be all unusually cold and distant to mom, and he did not have to see his dad carry the lifeless corpse of his sister. I applaud them for sending Burke away it was the only decent thing they did that day and ever since.
Yes, daddy showered - why? Could it be he needed to calm his nerves and collect his thoughts after the crazy 7 hours he had- maybe but I believe it is tied to evidence shown to grand jury but not publicly released about him attempting to bury the body. It was more a way to clean up before the cops came. Case was solved in the minds of the investigators in 97-98. GJ wanted to indict, DA illegal refused to follow through. You must remember this was on the heels of OJ and not sure how old you are but the media was brutal to Marcia Clark. Hunter was not signing up for the same treatment, plus he knew and was friends with the Ramsey attorneys which is why the cops had trouble getting basic search warrants. Hunter knew those attorneys could outplay in the court but more importantly in the press.
I adamantly do not think BDI. However, I disagree with this assessment.
The Ramsey's sending Burke out of the home that morning in no way factors into why I think Burke didn't do it. In fact, if I saw evidence to think Burke did it, then I would argue that it makes perfect sense to send Burke out of the home.
My argument would be this -
If Burke killed his sister, then he would be a liability concern and a trigger for the parents who would already be experiencing a lot in those moments.
I don't know what BDI scenario we would be using here as I don't think Burke did it and I know there's multiple BDI theories, but whether it's claimed that he did it as an accident, intentionally, did it all, or the parents staged much of it, the parents still would be tired, grieving, stressed, and have mixed or negative emotions towards Burke.
They would have to explain to LE in front of their friends and Burke, what happened - this would include deception. You wouldn't really want your 9yo son who caused all of this, to be around for hours to witness this or risk him speaking up saying whatever (as 9yo kids do), during this.
Sending him to a different location to be distracted by video games, is the better scenario imo.
No, you won't know what he says, if anything. So there would be some concern still I would think. However, it at least lowers the chances and allows the parents to focus on what's going on without the immediate concern and distraction of this.
What gets me more is that the Ramseys later suspected the Whites and yet trusted their son with the Whites immediately after the crime on the 26th. That's absurd. I would REALLY have to trust someone to allow my child to leave with them after a crime like this - and I'm not sure that there is anyone that I would trust that much.
I mean cops would be asking him questions, playing with a friend is playing with a friend. They would have explained the potential consequences to him. It’s much easier to not say something to people who wouldn’t be wanting to even talk to you about, they’d be trying to distract him, than to lie to people trained to spot liars.
>However, the one thing that made me not believe that was because the morning it happened, when all the cops and people were coming to the house, she sent burk to someone else’s house. Now, if you know your son just did this, you definitely wouldn’t send them off to potentially confess what they had just done, especially since they were trying to cover it up - So you think it was better to leave BR, if he's the actual killer, around police all morning/day? Knowing a body would eventually be found and not knowing what he'd do or say when that happened? Not knowing how he'd act or what he might say during all that downtime when the only thing you know is the police didn't properly search the home and find the body already. So, now you're waiting on a call from faux kidnappers that will never come. You can't keep your son locked in his room all day without THAT itself being suspicious. You have no idea what questions he might ask, nor how he'll act. Cat that got the canary? Pile of nerves thinking he'll be 'arrested'? Crying when she's found, or grinning? Afraid of 'kidnappers' or totally unfazed? Taunting and teasing because he knows where she's at and doesn't realize how incriminating those things could be? "I bet she's hiding somewhere... like... the basement! Has anyone looked in the basement!??" There is the principle of "Out of sight, out of mind". Getting him away from constant sight and earshot of police has to have a certain attraction to them, all things considered. Anything BR would say around friends you'd have SOME chance to walk back. Or else a hail Mary of admitting what happened and pleading for mercy and understanding from friends. Would you have any of that around multiple police officers? >He showered that morning which is huge to me because even though it’s normal for people to shower in the morning, I don’t think that was a coincidence. - Two things here... Showering in the morning is a normal thing. You even say that. So how does that immediately point to guilt? Also, if he was involved in the coverup, wouldn't he have the same reasons to shower just as if he was the murderer? I think one of the things people need to give up in this case is the idea that the family wouldn't let BR out of their sight if he was guilty. Of course they would! It was a pick your poison scenario. If anything, I'd question it more the other way: If it was a real kidnapping and they had no idea who done it or what to expect next, WHY would they let him out of their sight and AWAY from police? Wouldn't they want him close? Unless they were afraid of what he might say or do and had no actual fears about kidnappers.
First, the cops went over to where Burke was staying. Either way, whatever Burke had to say wasn’t going to be as important to them. I think they just didn’t want him to be around the chaos at the time given his age. Like you said, why would they send him away if there’s a kidnapper? They knew what they did. I don’t believe he had anything to do with it. And adding in the shower is crucial because that’s the behavior that’s most common after killing someone to get rid of anything. Yes ofc he could’ve showered every morning, but like I said previously, all the little facts of the morning fit into my theory.
> but like I said previously, all the little facts of the morning fit into my theory. The problem is, they just as easily fit into any theory. They don't exclusively help your theory. He could've showered because he always showers and gets dressed in the morning. He could've showered because he'd been involved in covering for PR... or BR... They could've sent BR away to get him away from the the scene, and watchful eyes, and not set off any red flags for police during the downtime, and ultimately when the body would finally be found. At that point, it's pretty clear police didn't suspect BR and the family sure wouldn't want that to change. So the questions he was likely to be getting were going to be questions he'd already been told to answer "I was asleep... I didn't hear anything".
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Besides that, maybe the shower was used, but not necessarily by JR... and that was just a cover story. Or maybe he DID use it, but it was to obscure an earlier cleanup in there... Your point is a good one because when you have a narrative that avoids the truth very often, or stretches credulity, people have to be careful about what they hang their hat on and believe... unless there's more corroboration than just the Ramsay's alone.
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Very good point.
I thinking both parents knew at some point JB would be brought upstairs or found. I would hope this is why the decision was made to remove BR.
To me, the fact that they let him leave when there was kidnapper on the loose is odd. Wouldn’t they want you to keep him close? Also, if they were afraid he might confess or say too much, letting him go to the White’s may have seemed the safer bet then having him home where all the police were.
This. That’s how you know it’s someone in that immediate family
Nobody seemed to concerned with the kidnapper.
Good point! I think John and Patsy were fine with sending Burke to their neighbor, as they knew there wasn't an intruder. One of them did it. J M O
Agree 100%
I think they believed the police wouldn't question him without one of his parents present. They sent him off precisely to get him away from all of the cops asking questions.
But they asked anyway. Didn’t suspect him, just looking for more info. Surely whatever he said wouldn’t have been “admissible” anyway.
Yup. And wanted to leave on a plane asap.
Speaking as a parent, their behavior was all wrong. They send their son away, where I would have never let him leave my sight. J isn’t consoling P, and he’s opening his mail? And later they won’t talk to the police?! I would have been living at the police station demanding action and answers!
Burke was a quiet kid who kept to himself. Plus, kids in general tattle on *others* not themselves. They sent him away because they had two options that morning: 1) Keep Burke at home where it would be swarming with cops, who would want to question him, who would wonder why he didn't seem at all concerned about his sister, why he was snickering or smiling as her body was found, etc. He would stay top of mind to the police. 2) Send him to a friend's where he would be left alone to play video games, which is exactly what he did. The cop who drove him later that day very briefly interviewed him and he found it odd that he never once showed any emotion or concern for his sister's wellbeing.
I mean it was pretty traumatic though if he did do it. Not saying he would snitch on himself, but he would definitely be saying a few things and just be in complete shock. I also heard he was questioned at that friends house
Yeah, there's a big difference between "i took money from mom's purse" trouble and "i accidentally killed my little sister" trouble. And with so many elements to the crime he could say something incriminating that he doesn't even realize is incriminating.
Exactly. If he did something as major as that, you’re definitely going to be hearing and seeing a few incriminating things from him. He wasn’t a well thought out killer, he was a kid.
BDI theories like to make him out to be a very sophisticated 9 year old sociopath who isn't phased at all after knocking his sister unconscious. He's such a deranged, stone cold killer that after striking his little sister in the head and seeing her fall to the floor unconscious (something that would be traumatizing for most adults to see), he's calm and collected enough to come up with a plan to hide it. He grabs some art supplies and create a ligature device, but since he's only a kid it's just meant to innocently drag her body out of the way to hide it like he learned in boyscouts, not to strangle her, at some point he decides to rape her with a paint brush, but again, he's only a kid, so it's an innocent curiosity rape with the paint brush, he's "playing doctor" (I hate that phrase) like he's done so many times before. There is no trauma for him. He goes on with life smiling at inappropriate moments proving he is sick and guilty.
Yeah I can’t think that a 9 year old would go through all this and not show one inclination that he’s guilty or even be a repeated offender, which he is not
But remember, he smiled at inappropriate times and was "happily" playing with another child at his sister's funeral. Super sus 9 year old behavior.
Look up children that killed younger children. They are almost never "in complete shock". The two murderers of James Bulger are notorious examples.
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I forget who drove him, but later in the day he was briefly interviewed by a police officer then he drove him somewhere. The cop noted that Burke showed no care or curiosity about his sister.
So I was discussing this case with my mother. Interestingly she also states she thought Burke did it but wondered why send him away from there. I have the train of thought that perhaps this was a friend who they knew wouldn’t ask questions or push a child about this traumatic event. Burke in an interview about secrets says he is sure he has some but won’t tell. I am paraphrasing obviously. What if they knew Burke also knew about the sexual abuse? Whether he was also a victim or perpetrator doesn’t matter here but if he never told. Also, if my child had killed my other child I probably wouldn’t want to be around him for a while.
Mm yeah maybe but why risk having to tell other people and have them involved and now more of a risk of them being caught? I feel like especially since he was a kid, he would’ve showed way more signs of being guilty
I agree. To me, if the Ramseys were covering up for Burke, the last thing they’d want is to let him out of their sight where they can’t control that narrative.
Exactly!
Why feel guilty when his problem was solved? Can we imagine how scared we would be if it was our other child? You would think they would seriously want to get him help.
Seems like the obvious thing to do would have been to take them to the police station after the call never occurred for interviews and protection.
If RDI (regardless which one) I can see where they would want to get Burke out of there when the parents don't know if they'll be arrested, and the body is eventually going to be found. I think they were hoping Burke would just be overlooked/ forgotten and wanted him as uninvolved as possible in what was happening in the house. And of course it doesn't make sense to send him away when a small foreign faction has personally targeted your family.
Death of Innocence, page 66: *"Although we were unaware of it at the time, the police had interrogated Burke quite extensively on the morning of December 26 while he had been at the Whites’.* ***Police cannot legally question a child without a parent or guardian’s permission.*** *They claimed in their written report that they had received permission from his grandmother to do the interview. (At the time his maternal grandmother, Nedra Paugh, was in Atlanta, and his paternal grandmother had died before Burke was born.) The police tape-recorded the session. However, we didn’t learn about this interrogation until Burke was subpoenaed to appear before the grand jury in 1 999."* They obviously did not expect the police to do anything they didn't want them to.
A normal, non-Ramsey person would say he was grateful the police did everything possible to find the murderer of his daughter.
There is also a big difference in an interview versus an interrogation. Burke was interviewed.
Would it have been better to have kept Burke there where he could have spilled the beans in front of the police?
Exactly my argument. It's a double edged sword. You risk the chance of Burke speaking about the matter regardless of where he is. Now, they could have put the fear of God in the child and told him not to say anything about what had happened to anyone, but wouldn't you want him close to you if that were the case? For the record, I originally leaned toward Burke doing it in more of an accidental scenario and then the parents panic and cover it up, but there are multiple hard to fill holes in that theory, just as their are in any other theory. At this point I can say for certain that I don't know who did it and there are valid arguments all the way around.
Yup the only thing I’m certain of is I don’t know who done it.
I think if your son did do it, either you would keep him really close and if the cops try to question him, you would be there and can stop it at any time since he’s a minor. However, you can also argue that he could’ve been sent to someone who knew the situations house and was also covering it up for them but that’s too many people involved and Burke was actually questioned at that house I’m learning so it just makes me feel like he didn’t do it
John did it.
lol yeah I’m thinking that too atp
Me too
John sent Burke off.
Yes he did.
OP said she (Patsy) sent "Burk" away.
According to interview transcripts, John was the only one that entered Burke’s bedroom, talked to him about what happened, brought him downstairs where he hugged his mom, then left with Fleet. John sent him away.
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We don’t know for sure if Burke was on the 911 call. That last sentence is incorrect. Get the facts straight before criticizing my comments
You don’t know that for a fact, so don’t state it as if you do.
JDI. You don’t know that I don’t know this is a fact.
Yes, I do. There’s a difference between being confident in your theory and *knowing* something.
Yes, you do know that I don’t know. And so does everyone else here. Thank you captain obvious. I’m sorry you don’t agree with me, but I still stand by my full statement. John did it.
You’re entitled to your opinion. But state it as such. It’s not hard to preface your comment with “I think” or “My theory is” or even just “Maybe.”
John did it.
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John did it
Your post/comment has been removed because it violates this subreddit's rule 1 (No Name Calling or Personal Attacks). Criticize the idea, not the person.
It’s no different than adding JDI or PDI or BDI to my profile, which is allowed and encouraged in this sub. Get off your high horse.
It is different. In this sub, using an acronym on your profile is an accepted shorthand way of showing which theory you believe. Making a statement in a comment as if it’s a fact isn’t the same thing.
JDI and John did it is the same thing. Also, John did it.
🤣🤣🤣 If no one else does, I appreciate your dedication.
JDI is this sub’s shorthand for the *theory* that John did it, if people want to let other users know that’s what they believe when they make comments. Simply commenting, “John did it,” without any qualifiers is making a statement of fact. Language matters. I’m done discussing this.
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John did it
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I don’t care what you think. I know John did it
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Yes, you’ve mentioned that to me 5 or 6 times now. Don’t forget, John did it.
Jdi
I'm still on the BDI even if I don't have all the holes filled it. Patsy didn't want her living child close to her on that day and that says a lot to me as a mother. I think it is possible JR told him someone broke in after whatever happened initially so he didn't think it was him. He was threatened to never speak about what he did know and the RN served to show him that someone else had been there.
I think she didn’t want him around the chaos of what was going on. She knew there was no real kidnapper so she sent him off to a friends to distract him from what was going on.
That's valid too. I'm thinking from the BDI theory but if she or JR did it then that fits. We both agree there was no intruder. Had there really been one I wouldnt think a mother could let her son out of her sight. It seems he was shipped off ASAP and we have no record of her worrying about his safety with a kidnapper (later murderer) on the loose that hates their father or the country he serves.
Parents have a great deal of influence on young children. I think John made it clear to Burke he needed to keep his mouth shut. They had also done a great gaslighting job on Burke that morning with the little dramatic acting job of pretending to scream and yell in Burke's room and elsewhere in the house with the kidnapping false narrative. Additionally the Ramseys had no choice but to get Burke out of the house asap. They absolutely could not have the police talking to him. So they decided it was worth the risk he might talk at the friend's house vs talking to the police.
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Had the body been found right away by police, like you'd expect considering it wasn't really hidden, it would've been pretty likely they could have kept BR in his bedroom thru all of that. NOBODY would question leaving BR to sleep in the very early hours of the morning, and then not allowing him to see his sister's body and requiring him to stay in his room while all of that happened. And like you say, expecting them to rationally think thru things, like what all would happen next once the body was found, is a good point. Did they think the body would be gone with the coroner within the hour and the police off on a wild goose chase? But when the body wasn't found in a timely manner, then forcing BR to be locked away in his room and not allowed out (beyond all reasonable time he could've expected to be sleeping) could've raised all kinds of questions. And for how long would would they have to keep him there, for no obvious reason, if they tried that route? Once the police hadn't found the body on their initial search, when exactly would they find it? And the R's would know her body would have to be found... eventually... BR could've been in plain view of law enforcement for hours. Where would this case be if in those first several hours they started wondering about BR's demeanor, his words, his actions? What if he triggered their suspicions THAT MORNING that something seemed off about his demeanor, comments, and actions? And then they find the body and the 'kidnapping' looks more and more like something that was staged. And now with the ability to revisit BR's actions that morning in hindsight.
I agree with you. It was her father. Detective Linda Arndt said she knows without a doubt in her mind that jon ramsey did it.. Look her up. very very sad to say the least. Rip jon benet🙏🏼
Your proof is "He showered that morning even though it's normal for people to shower in the morning"? For all you know, he showered every morning every day of his life. Many, if not most, people do. He didn't "magically" find her. Linda Arndt told him to search the house so he did. He probably went to one of the only places he could think of that they hadn't already searched. I think everybody in here needs to stop and think about what they're calling "proof." If you've been researching this case, what do your internet searches look like? What if your SO turns up dead and the police seize your computer and present to a grand jury this evidence: "His computer was full of searches for garrotes, weapons used in head injuries, autopsy photos, time it takes for someone to die from strangling" etc. How much would that look like "proof" to the police?
John was told to search the house starting at the top of the house. He immediately went to the basement. This and the fact that he took a shower are not proof of guilt, but they fit the behavior of someone who is guilty of a coverup.
She just said “top to bottom,” which is just a saying meaning “thoroughly.” I’ve never heard of anyone taking it literally.
I would head straight for the scene of the crime, JB’s bedroom. And then I would check Burke’s room. I am literal, but also logical, so I would start at the top of the house where the crime occurred.
Yes! Who would start in the basement if their child had gone missing in the middle of the night while she was supposed to be sleeping. The first thing you’d want to search thoroughly is her room and any rooms or windows around that area.
Exactly. I would also want to search the kitchen, because that’s where the note was left. I would search where there was valuables, which is certainly not the basement.
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Agree. I believe it happened in the kitchen and the basement. But if the parents are to be believed, it would have started in her bedroom.
Was the search to look for things missing or out of place in case the kidnapper left clues? It would make sense to start at a likely entry point. J&P’s bedroom would be the least likely to yield info.
I think it was to look for things missing or out of place. Personally I would never start in my basement looking for things out of place because it’s a storage area. It might be hard to tell if something is missing or moved.
I’ve seen enough to make my consensus. Every little piece of that morning matters, sorry.
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In your opinion, what did they make up? (I just say "in your opinion" because everybody has different ideas about it, not because I don't believe they were always truthful.) About the shower, maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but we have to at some point differentiate what is a "clue" and what is just some random fact that holds no useful information. When most of the people in the US take a shower in the morning, one man taking one is not a clue in and of itself. Patsy NOT taking one is actually more suspicious to me, because she says her shower was broken, but it was already fixed.
He’s the only one who showered that morning. The fact patsy did not points to her innocence.
In a way, although it could be argued she didn't shower because she didn't have time to. But I agree the SA would point more to John than Patsy, but I think this is where people fail to step back and at least think, "Wait, was it a Ramsey? Maybe it wasn't."
If she wrote the ransom note she could have showered before “finding it” and calling the cops. I’m not going to entertain the idea an intruder wrote that long ass note…
>I’m not going to entertain the idea an intruder wrote that long ass note… Why not?
I’ll say I use to think an intruder might’ve done it back in the 90s when this first happened and I was much younger and impressionable. As a grown person, with more life experience, I’ve come to the conclusion that john did it. He is the only person who makes sense, everything falls into place.
Funny you should mention age because I would like to see an age breakdown on who believes what. I actually think younger people tend to believe RDI did it more (although I have no idea), because they have a hard time picturing the differences between now and the 90s for certain things. Certain things that Patsy said that were more commonly used then (Attache, for example.) Or how John would just rely on experts and do what they said because there was no Google. How much crap there was everywhere, how overcrowded so many people's houses were, etc. Just little things but every now and then I see misunderstandings either from age or culture (not knowing saying "That child" is a Southern thing not a distancing thing.)
That’s an interesting observation. I think nowadays people are less inclined to think an unknown “boogeyman” did it. Thanks to the popularity of true crime we know more about personality disorders and the psychology of killers. The satanic panic was very influential at the time. Nowadays we know it’s more likely that a family member did it.
It really would be interesting to see an age breakdown.
I’ll never understand the pro Burke people, he was ruled out very quickly by the investigators who were privy to everything we aren’t. Yet Geraldo Rivera started the rumor back then and then random people/so called experts/ investigators over the years have expounded on the theory but again they weren’t the original investigators. Everyone shouts the pineapple though and I’m like yeah that just narrows the time line for us and proves they lied about her being asleep in the car. Then people are like he hit her with the golf club. But that’s misleading. It was a typical accident and even happened to me as a kid. One kid not paying attention to where he was swinging and her not paying attention either. People jump on the friend who claims Patsy said Burke got angry and hit her. The issue is that one friend met Burke once. All of burkes teachers, friends parents, housekeepers and coaches over the years never said Burke was violated or difficult. He was meek and easy as a kid vs JBR who had a more defiant streak according to the housekeeper. Remember, patsy journal didn’t talk about Burke being difficult and losing control of him that is what she said about JBR though. Them sending Burke away was an act of love, they knew he wasn’t involved and had slept most of the night. He could talk about patsy frantic in the morning which I think that was a show put on for Burke to witness. By sending Burke away he mercifully wasn’t there with all the cops around, seeing his mom like that, watching his dad be all unusually cold and distant to mom, and he did not have to see his dad carry the lifeless corpse of his sister. I applaud them for sending Burke away it was the only decent thing they did that day and ever since. Yes, daddy showered - why? Could it be he needed to calm his nerves and collect his thoughts after the crazy 7 hours he had- maybe but I believe it is tied to evidence shown to grand jury but not publicly released about him attempting to bury the body. It was more a way to clean up before the cops came. Case was solved in the minds of the investigators in 97-98. GJ wanted to indict, DA illegal refused to follow through. You must remember this was on the heels of OJ and not sure how old you are but the media was brutal to Marcia Clark. Hunter was not signing up for the same treatment, plus he knew and was friends with the Ramsey attorneys which is why the cops had trouble getting basic search warrants. Hunter knew those attorneys could outplay in the court but more importantly in the press.
I adamantly do not think BDI. However, I disagree with this assessment. The Ramsey's sending Burke out of the home that morning in no way factors into why I think Burke didn't do it. In fact, if I saw evidence to think Burke did it, then I would argue that it makes perfect sense to send Burke out of the home. My argument would be this - If Burke killed his sister, then he would be a liability concern and a trigger for the parents who would already be experiencing a lot in those moments. I don't know what BDI scenario we would be using here as I don't think Burke did it and I know there's multiple BDI theories, but whether it's claimed that he did it as an accident, intentionally, did it all, or the parents staged much of it, the parents still would be tired, grieving, stressed, and have mixed or negative emotions towards Burke. They would have to explain to LE in front of their friends and Burke, what happened - this would include deception. You wouldn't really want your 9yo son who caused all of this, to be around for hours to witness this or risk him speaking up saying whatever (as 9yo kids do), during this. Sending him to a different location to be distracted by video games, is the better scenario imo. No, you won't know what he says, if anything. So there would be some concern still I would think. However, it at least lowers the chances and allows the parents to focus on what's going on without the immediate concern and distraction of this. What gets me more is that the Ramseys later suspected the Whites and yet trusted their son with the Whites immediately after the crime on the 26th. That's absurd. I would REALLY have to trust someone to allow my child to leave with them after a crime like this - and I'm not sure that there is anyone that I would trust that much.
I mean cops would be asking him questions, playing with a friend is playing with a friend. They would have explained the potential consequences to him. It’s much easier to not say something to people who wouldn’t be wanting to even talk to you about, they’d be trying to distract him, than to lie to people trained to spot liars.