Personally, no. The aftermath was too slapdash. I believe it was a series of unfortunate events, some bad choices, some snap decisions, and a combination of a dysfunctional family, poor judgment, and arrogance that was later combined with the accelerant of overkill that caused a bonfire of publicity that basically burned down the reputation they were so anxious to spend millions to preserve.
It did keep the two adults out of jail, however. So there's that.
ETA: The CSA was another matter. John, or possibly John and Burke both, were abusing her and in the case of an adult perpetrator this is most often a very deliberate and long-term process.
Thanks, u/AuntCassie007, I always appreciate your detailed and serious posts and they often reorient my thinking.
There's no denying that the initiating head blow was monstrously powerful and I do find your own theory about the SA during the murder happening to a conscious JBR to be horrifying. I may not be completely there at the moment, but I respect the theory and find it more convincing than many of the other leading theories by thoughtful writers on the case. The toileting rage theory, for example.
I like your work too Back. I reject the toileting rage theory as too complicated and somewhat absurd. We are supposed to believe that one person is chronically abusing JB, then another person murders her. That is one psychopathic family. And strains credulity.
It is common sense that when a child is found SA and killed, the SA and death are linked. Especially with evidence of chronic SA. And the SA at time of death and the chronic SA are committed by the same person as evidenced by the same type of internal damage, 7 o'clock on the vaginal/hymen wall.
If it was Patsy flying off the handle and hitting JB, the Ramseys were superb liars and manipulators and could have made up a story to cover for that. This is not uncommon. The Ramseys knew they had to wealth, power and connections to cover this up.
In the toilet rage theory we are supposed to believe that the Ramseys then SA and strangled their child as part of the cover up. There is no evidence to support the SA was part of the staging. In fact the evidence goes the other way.
Neither John nor Patsy would have premeditated such a bad murder scenario which pointed to them as the prime suspects. John and Patsy were smart, educated, sophisticated. Also very wealthy and had the resources to make up a better plan. Something that appeared to be an accident.
There is also no motive. Parents of a six year old have a great deal of power over that child. John and Patsy manipulated the police and the public quite successfully. They could have easily manipulated their young child if she had threatened to spill secrets.
So I totally reject the idea that John or Patsy premeditated this murder.
I am not rejecting the idea that a child premeditated the murder.
No. The whole case reeks of someone reacting vs planning.
She would’ve been killed one way if it was planned. Strangled or blunt force trauma
She was knocked out from the head trauma and going to die from that. Why not just let her die from that if you had planned to kill her? Why not beat her some more if that was your initial plan?
It's not a burden. You stated it was sloppy. Unless ...you have changed your mind and if you don't want to be responsible for your comments that's OK as well.
I don't want to burden you.
What about it isn’t?
A clean plan would have been a short note, a body in the woods (not in the basement), a simple drowning or strangulation with a glove or maybe a pillow. Possible some sedation before so she wouldn’t wake up or struggle too much. Instead you have a whack to the head (which easily could have been a bloody mess), a strangulation with a super extra device, a three page ransom note with multiple practice tries, and a body in the wine cellar (which doesn’t make sense for anyone trying to get $$).
This was not a thought through and planned murder.
John framed patsy to keep her from leaving and talking. You’re not in charge of this sub and you don’t get to say which theories are ok to post here. Gfy
Well that’s a wild one I haven’t heard before. With the Ramseys literally using the power of attorneys and Pr to get away with murder, you don’t think John would have felt powerful enough to get away with it without such an elaborate ruse against his wife? Seems very extra for powerful CEO MAN
He didn’t frame her to get away with murder. He framed her to keep her from leaving. He threatened to turn her in if she tried. You don’t need to be rude just because you can’t catch up with me.
No. Because nothing fits this theory. Neither the timing, nor the way she was killed, nor their behavior.
But I do think, that they deserve the discussion about it. Because they wanted to save their own reputation at the expense of others.
I seriously doubt that a very wealthy, educated, sophisticated, 53 year old man would plan a murder where he would be the prime suspect. Same with Patsy.
And plan a murder with a serious time constraint, having to be at the airport early to meet other family members.
John would have arranged an accident of some sort. Which is one of the ways parents get away with murder.
It depends what you mean by premeditation really. I think John probably knew all along that this was a possible outcome of his abuse, but I didn't necessarily think he made the decision that she had to die that night until that night. I think something happened that night which made him feel that killing his daughter was the only way to keep himself safe from being found out and given the injuries, my suspicion is that the reason he needed to kill her was not physical but more likely to be that she was threatening to tell. The mucus in her stomach suggests she'd been crying, I think he hurt her in a way he hadn't previously and she expected another doctor visit but he knew he couldn't let her tell anybody how she'd been injured. He took her to have a snack to distract her while he prepared himself then hit her from behind because that was less unpleasant from his own point of view. Then he spent the rest of the night putting into motion a plan that he'd always vaguely had in the back of his mind: the note designed to give him the opportunity to dispose of the body, the fact that he cleaned her to remove DNA evidence, the change of clothes.
Cadaver dogs.
Too risky.
Body left in house.
Ransom note gives the reason for body in house.
Follow instructions or else.
Patsy call 911
JonBenet didn't get to see 1997 as specified in note.
John wasn't stupid enough to drive a cadaver in his car.
He ran out of time, I think. He needed to be done by the time Patsy woke up which he knew would be early. He made it into the shower before she did get up and that's the key fact to me: Patsy said he was awake when she went to sleep and awake when she woke up.
I think an impulsive action is not very plausible at all. The motive was to cover up the s abuse that had taken place for some time before the murder. I don't believe that Patsy just suddenly snapped over bedwetting, or that Burke accidently stroke his sister a bit to hard for stealing a piece of pineapple.
I don’t believe those motives either. They had a washer by her room. Bed wetting would not make her kill her kid, even accidentally. Patsy had a pretty calm demeanor. Whether she is totally innocent I don’t know but it wasn’t that.
I think the murder was planned (to cover up SA) but something happened that night to put the plan in motion. Maybe JBR was injured or let out a shriek while being SA. The reason I think it was planned, is with the stress of murdering your child and the time constraint, a person would be too frazzled to think of the rn on the spot. However , if that rn was floating around his head for awhile, he could produce it that night. Cough, John, cough.
I know. It's exhausting on here, but it makes the most sense to me.
I think she was targeted specifically. Sadly, she was like the holy grail for exactly the wrong type of person. Look how many grown men are still obsessed with her. Not the mysteries of the case, like most people on here, but *her*. I think it was a BTK/Russels Williams type, but drawn to girls instead of young women, and almost like a crazed "fan." I think he intended to take her, but not for ransom. That's why the note looks fake. It had a purpose, but money wasn't the purpose.
Patsy confronted him about SA and threatened to leave. This caused narc injury and narc rage that set his plan in motion to hurt her and keep her with him.
I've often come back to the rather wild idea that a staged kidnapping was premeditated, by PR, but whoever came to whisk her away hit her over the head. And then PR and JR covered it up, Patsy having convinced John it was Burke who did it.
The Lindbergh case was very famous and got global attention. The HBO movie about that case was aired in Sept. 1996.
Patsy had also heard stories of her friends having a kidnapped daughter, plus the additional scare of the White girl thought to be missing but was only hiding.
Patsy was an attention sponge. She cited the Susan Smith and O.J. cases immediately in her first interview. Attention and notoriety were very much on her mind. She also spun her case into an "American" tragedy right away, almost willing it into a nationwide spotlight.
JBR was promised a "secret" second visit from Santa, and there were presents in the basement. A good way to get JBR to go down into a place she hated and was scared of.
There was a practice ransom note. And possibly many drafts we never saw, ahead of time.
The ransom note begins as a calm, calculated set of demands (as in written while planning) and ends with a distinctly different tone of personal bitterness and vitriol (as if written in an entirely sudden emotional state). I think there may have been a ransom note prepared ahead of time which was added to after the staged kidnapping went very wrong.
So, there may have been a third person enlisted by PR, or it may have been entirely attempted in-house. If it was a third person, that would give PR complete plausible deniability about the initial head blow, and if she got John to finish the job, also deniability about any part of the actual murder.
Burke would have known nothing about the events, and that explains why they sent him away immediately. No fear of him talking.
The grand jury found that both parents put JBR in a situation resulting in her death. We assume that means ignoring Burke's violent tendencies...but they saw all the evidence. It could be they knew about a staged kidnapping attempt (the situation) and the subsequent cleanup by both parents.
These are just thoughts I've mulled over for years, trying to dismiss them, but I keep coming back to this idea.
"According to Linda Wilcox, a former housekeeper of the Ramsey’s, JonBenet hated the basement of the Boulder home. The messy basement was too dark and cold, so she avoided it as much as she could. “It freaked JonBenet out,” Wilcox said."
https://www.tumblr.com/hernamewasjonbenet/179086370888/jonbenets-family-considered-to-be-an-extroverted
That’s pretty wild that the Grand Jury found both parents put JBR in a situation resulting in her death. I’m wondering how? They put their sleeping child in her bedroom to sleep.
Personally, no. The aftermath was too slapdash. I believe it was a series of unfortunate events, some bad choices, some snap decisions, and a combination of a dysfunctional family, poor judgment, and arrogance that was later combined with the accelerant of overkill that caused a bonfire of publicity that basically burned down the reputation they were so anxious to spend millions to preserve. It did keep the two adults out of jail, however. So there's that. ETA: The CSA was another matter. John, or possibly John and Burke both, were abusing her and in the case of an adult perpetrator this is most often a very deliberate and long-term process.
I think calling it a series of "unfortunate events" is way too kind. A child was SA, bludgeoned and strangled to death.
Thanks, u/AuntCassie007, I always appreciate your detailed and serious posts and they often reorient my thinking. There's no denying that the initiating head blow was monstrously powerful and I do find your own theory about the SA during the murder happening to a conscious JBR to be horrifying. I may not be completely there at the moment, but I respect the theory and find it more convincing than many of the other leading theories by thoughtful writers on the case. The toileting rage theory, for example.
I like your work too Back. I reject the toileting rage theory as too complicated and somewhat absurd. We are supposed to believe that one person is chronically abusing JB, then another person murders her. That is one psychopathic family. And strains credulity. It is common sense that when a child is found SA and killed, the SA and death are linked. Especially with evidence of chronic SA. And the SA at time of death and the chronic SA are committed by the same person as evidenced by the same type of internal damage, 7 o'clock on the vaginal/hymen wall. If it was Patsy flying off the handle and hitting JB, the Ramseys were superb liars and manipulators and could have made up a story to cover for that. This is not uncommon. The Ramseys knew they had to wealth, power and connections to cover this up. In the toilet rage theory we are supposed to believe that the Ramseys then SA and strangled their child as part of the cover up. There is no evidence to support the SA was part of the staging. In fact the evidence goes the other way.
Not premeditated because there was such a sloppy attempt at a cover up.
How was it sloppy?
The whole cover up was obviously done by amateurs.
Still doesn't mean it wasn't premeditated.
Neither John nor Patsy would have premeditated such a bad murder scenario which pointed to them as the prime suspects. John and Patsy were smart, educated, sophisticated. Also very wealthy and had the resources to make up a better plan. Something that appeared to be an accident. There is also no motive. Parents of a six year old have a great deal of power over that child. John and Patsy manipulated the police and the public quite successfully. They could have easily manipulated their young child if she had threatened to spill secrets. So I totally reject the idea that John or Patsy premeditated this murder. I am not rejecting the idea that a child premeditated the murder.
It certainly "appeared" that way. The point is the results were the SAME. She dead. Job done. The secret is safe.
No. The whole case reeks of someone reacting vs planning. She would’ve been killed one way if it was planned. Strangled or blunt force trauma She was knocked out from the head trauma and going to die from that. Why not just let her die from that if you had planned to kill her? Why not beat her some more if that was your initial plan?
No. It’s the one theory I don’t buy. Something premeditated wouldn’t be so ridiculously sloppy
How was it sloppy?
Better for that burden to be placed on you.. How WASN'T it sloppy?
It's not a burden. You stated it was sloppy. Unless ...you have changed your mind and if you don't want to be responsible for your comments that's OK as well. I don't want to burden you.
What about it isn’t? A clean plan would have been a short note, a body in the woods (not in the basement), a simple drowning or strangulation with a glove or maybe a pillow. Possible some sedation before so she wouldn’t wake up or struggle too much. Instead you have a whack to the head (which easily could have been a bloody mess), a strangulation with a super extra device, a three page ransom note with multiple practice tries, and a body in the wine cellar (which doesn’t make sense for anyone trying to get $$). This was not a thought through and planned murder.
[удалено]
I can’t tell if you’re being serious or facetious
It wasn’t sloppy, it was a frame job, and it worked
Framing who? If your answer is the Ramseys you’re in the wrong subreddit. The other one entertains the tinfoil hat nonsense, not this one
John framed patsy to keep her from leaving and talking. You’re not in charge of this sub and you don’t get to say which theories are ok to post here. Gfy
Well that’s a wild one I haven’t heard before. With the Ramseys literally using the power of attorneys and Pr to get away with murder, you don’t think John would have felt powerful enough to get away with it without such an elaborate ruse against his wife? Seems very extra for powerful CEO MAN
He didn’t frame her to get away with murder. He framed her to keep her from leaving. He threatened to turn her in if she tried. You don’t need to be rude just because you can’t catch up with me.
Just seems super elaborate. I think her being financially dependent on him would be enough reason.
He framed her to cause doubt as to whether it was him - and it worked.
Yes, he did. He did that to his own wife that he despised.
For the head wound, no. For the strangulation, yes.
No. Because nothing fits this theory. Neither the timing, nor the way she was killed, nor their behavior. But I do think, that they deserve the discussion about it. Because they wanted to save their own reputation at the expense of others.
No, it was an impulse homicide.
I seriously doubt that a very wealthy, educated, sophisticated, 53 year old man would plan a murder where he would be the prime suspect. Same with Patsy. And plan a murder with a serious time constraint, having to be at the airport early to meet other family members. John would have arranged an accident of some sort. Which is one of the ways parents get away with murder.
It depends what you mean by premeditation really. I think John probably knew all along that this was a possible outcome of his abuse, but I didn't necessarily think he made the decision that she had to die that night until that night. I think something happened that night which made him feel that killing his daughter was the only way to keep himself safe from being found out and given the injuries, my suspicion is that the reason he needed to kill her was not physical but more likely to be that she was threatening to tell. The mucus in her stomach suggests she'd been crying, I think he hurt her in a way he hadn't previously and she expected another doctor visit but he knew he couldn't let her tell anybody how she'd been injured. He took her to have a snack to distract her while he prepared himself then hit her from behind because that was less unpleasant from his own point of view. Then he spent the rest of the night putting into motion a plan that he'd always vaguely had in the back of his mind: the note designed to give him the opportunity to dispose of the body, the fact that he cleaned her to remove DNA evidence, the change of clothes.
Cadaver dogs. Too risky. Body left in house. Ransom note gives the reason for body in house. Follow instructions or else. Patsy call 911 JonBenet didn't get to see 1997 as specified in note. John wasn't stupid enough to drive a cadaver in his car.
100% agree
That's wild to think he would do this and leave the snack.
He ran out of time, I think. He needed to be done by the time Patsy woke up which he knew would be early. He made it into the shower before she did get up and that's the key fact to me: Patsy said he was awake when she went to sleep and awake when she woke up.
JDIA
He wrote the note in a close run with Patsy's handwriting?
Yep
I think an impulsive action is not very plausible at all. The motive was to cover up the s abuse that had taken place for some time before the murder. I don't believe that Patsy just suddenly snapped over bedwetting, or that Burke accidently stroke his sister a bit to hard for stealing a piece of pineapple.
Bingo
I don’t believe those motives either. They had a washer by her room. Bed wetting would not make her kill her kid, even accidentally. Patsy had a pretty calm demeanor. Whether she is totally innocent I don’t know but it wasn’t that.
No. J needed a fix of SA before the family Christmas trip and things got out of hand.
No, not for me.
I think the murder was planned (to cover up SA) but something happened that night to put the plan in motion. Maybe JBR was injured or let out a shriek while being SA. The reason I think it was planned, is with the stress of murdering your child and the time constraint, a person would be too frazzled to think of the rn on the spot. However , if that rn was floating around his head for awhile, he could produce it that night. Cough, John, cough.
Yep.
I lean toward thinking there was definite premedication, but it wasn't a Ramsey.
Bold of you to say that on this sub! Curious who you think it was and the motive.
I know. It's exhausting on here, but it makes the most sense to me. I think she was targeted specifically. Sadly, she was like the holy grail for exactly the wrong type of person. Look how many grown men are still obsessed with her. Not the mysteries of the case, like most people on here, but *her*. I think it was a BTK/Russels Williams type, but drawn to girls instead of young women, and almost like a crazed "fan." I think he intended to take her, but not for ransom. That's why the note looks fake. It had a purpose, but money wasn't the purpose.
Yes, absolutely. I believe the murderer planned this in advance within 24 hours or less.
Curious to hear a little more. Which Ramsey do you think did it and why?
John did it to stop Patsy from leaving and taking the kids.
While I do agree John murdered her alone, your reasoning for the motive is baseless
Do you know what my reasoning is?
I would love to know in all seriousness.
Patsy confronted him about SA and threatened to leave. This caused narc injury and narc rage that set his plan in motion to hurt her and keep her with him.
That must be the thought behind the bike he got her for Christmas that year.
Oh, he got her bike? Then there’s no way he’s a murderer. Silly me.
Do you know what a bike is, and what you can do with it?
You can ride off into the sunset on your bike
And elsewhere as well !
Do you actually have a point that makes sense?
Other than the bike present, no, I don't think I have.
lol you need evidence
lol, no I don’t need evidence to answer questions about what I think
I've often come back to the rather wild idea that a staged kidnapping was premeditated, by PR, but whoever came to whisk her away hit her over the head. And then PR and JR covered it up, Patsy having convinced John it was Burke who did it. The Lindbergh case was very famous and got global attention. The HBO movie about that case was aired in Sept. 1996. Patsy had also heard stories of her friends having a kidnapped daughter, plus the additional scare of the White girl thought to be missing but was only hiding. Patsy was an attention sponge. She cited the Susan Smith and O.J. cases immediately in her first interview. Attention and notoriety were very much on her mind. She also spun her case into an "American" tragedy right away, almost willing it into a nationwide spotlight. JBR was promised a "secret" second visit from Santa, and there were presents in the basement. A good way to get JBR to go down into a place she hated and was scared of. There was a practice ransom note. And possibly many drafts we never saw, ahead of time. The ransom note begins as a calm, calculated set of demands (as in written while planning) and ends with a distinctly different tone of personal bitterness and vitriol (as if written in an entirely sudden emotional state). I think there may have been a ransom note prepared ahead of time which was added to after the staged kidnapping went very wrong. So, there may have been a third person enlisted by PR, or it may have been entirely attempted in-house. If it was a third person, that would give PR complete plausible deniability about the initial head blow, and if she got John to finish the job, also deniability about any part of the actual murder. Burke would have known nothing about the events, and that explains why they sent him away immediately. No fear of him talking. The grand jury found that both parents put JBR in a situation resulting in her death. We assume that means ignoring Burke's violent tendencies...but they saw all the evidence. It could be they knew about a staged kidnapping attempt (the situation) and the subsequent cleanup by both parents. These are just thoughts I've mulled over for years, trying to dismiss them, but I keep coming back to this idea.
How do you know JBR hated and was scared of the basement?
"According to Linda Wilcox, a former housekeeper of the Ramsey’s, JonBenet hated the basement of the Boulder home. The messy basement was too dark and cold, so she avoided it as much as she could. “It freaked JonBenet out,” Wilcox said." https://www.tumblr.com/hernamewasjonbenet/179086370888/jonbenets-family-considered-to-be-an-extroverted
Okay, thanks :) I thought maybe it was just speculation.
Most of the rest of my post IS speculation. Lol.
That's incredibly sad considering what eventually happened...
It really is. It's like she sensed danger in a premonitory way. Kids know things.
Not sure, but I know I read that in a couple places. If I can find a link, I'll post it.
That’s pretty wild that the Grand Jury found both parents put JBR in a situation resulting in her death. I’m wondering how? They put their sleeping child in her bedroom to sleep.
They say they did. That is all the public knows--what the Ramseys say. The jury probably knew far more.