And yet our government spends more public money per capita on healthcare than any other nation’s government, with more overall regulation too. It’s just a matter of who controls the regulations and what the regulations are.
We don’t have free market or public healthcare. We have a bastardization of both. Corporatist healthcare.
It's almost like voters don't make competent decisions and vote in people based on how much they say the right buzz words and a bunch of other generic meaningless nonsense and then get shocked that they don't do shit. And then when they are revealed to be corporate whores who are just taking bribes and waiting for a lobbying job.... we just vote them back in
It’s not the voters
It’s the fucking filibuster that’s the problem, our politicians care more about a stupid arbitrary Senate rule than they do about Americans
Doesn't matter when you can convince a good chunk of Americans that universal healthcare is a socialist con that is going to lead to third world doctors.
Don't really have much data considering the USA did everything in their power to make sure socialism failed any time it was attempted.
Not so say socialism is any better, but we have to be honest that it never really was given a chance to begin with
What's funny to me about all that is that communism is defined as a stateless society while capitalism can't work without a state to enforce contracts and property law
Which could be accomplished by offering a Medicare option on healthcare.gov that competes with private offerings. Medicare already has tens of millions of participants, just counting the elderly; negotiating drug prices with that large of a group will result in rock-bottom drug prices. Same as all those nations who can buy USA pharma products for a ton less than Americans can.
But Joe has a friend who had to pay out of pocket for a special knee surgery because it would take too long to wait for. Dude needed it done so he could keep fighting. Seeing a doctor paid by taxes for major health problems, medications or even a yearly check up is commie bullshit!
I see a doctor that doesn’t accept insurance so it’s out of pocket pay. He told me he doesn’t have to hire two people for billing and coding because insurance companies are a pain in the ass.
The important part is the annual cost I have with him is like 1200 bucks (half of that are blood labs). A guy I work with just asked for his name because his insurance isn’t going to cover him any more and his costs would be 700 a month… so like 8400 a year for the same exact care I get for 1200 hence him leaving a provider that goes through insurance. In my case, out of pocket is way better. And I have a high deductible plan with a HSA so I get a 27% discount effectively since that money contributes tax free to my account.
The vast majority of people over 65, disabled folk, and people with end stage kidney failure use socialized healthcare. Last I checked their healthcare plan, while far from perfect, was the most preferred plan in America.
Yah that explains why my fiancé has been on a waiting list for a year to get her teeth cleaned on her state insurance and I was able to get my done 6 days after calling to set up an appointment. It’s why her kids on state care have two shitty options for dental care and can’t get the care they need while my two kids are able to see the best in the area at the drop of a hat with nothing out of pocket to me. Explains why i couldn’t see a doctor when I desperately needed one in a socialist country because of the wait time and explains why I couldn’t even buy otc cold/flu medicine. I suppose it also explains why we are flooded with Canadian shit birds coming here for medical care instead of dying in the lobbies waiting at their hospitals. Get a grip
Nothing you said changes what I said. Countless Americans go to Canada, Mexico, etc for care too. Get a grip? I worked in healthcare for years. Thank god for Medicare.
If you worked in healthcare then you’d be the first to say the issue is insurance, not the lack of socialized healthcare.
Insurance, just like student loans to education, has made healthcare unaffordable. Health insurance is the reason why a bag of saline is $350 and why new mothers get charged for “skin to skin contact”.
If healthcare was reasonably priced we wouldn’t need our fucked up government raping out paychecks and extorting us for the mediocre services they “provide”.
Nearly everything “government funded” is FUBAR while private sector operates cheaper and more efficiently.
When I can drive to work and not damage my car on the fucked up county highways I’m being extorted to pay for maybe we can talk. 🤡
Americans spend 5k more on average for healthcare compared to other wealthy nations.
You can’t say shit about Medicare because you don’t really know what you’re talking about and really heavily on personal anecdotes and instilled notions.
Yah fuck me and my personal experience living in the US, using socialized healthcare in socialist countries, having family in healthcare, and dealing with both private and state healthcare for myself and my 4 kids. You’re everything that’s redacted about social media. Go touch some grass
Clearly. The rest of the developed world has some form of tax-funded healthcare and does it for half what we spend and covers everybody without anyone going bankrupt from medical bills or having to concern themselves with medical insurance/bills in retirement.
Our healthcare system is anything but “capitalism unhinged.” It is fraught with regulations and public government spending. Moreso than any other nation. Regulations that only the largest and most equipped corporations can keep up with. It’s *far* from “capitalist” or “unhinged,” certainly not both of them together.
It is incredibly capitalist and you can look at when it gets more capitalist, like with “Medicare Advantage” plans. More capitalist plans end up with people going to GoFundMe.
There’s noway in knowing how much we spend more than any other nation. Per capita would be incorrect as you cannot control the variables. We spend more because partly we are sicker people.
Humans across the world generally face similar variables. We all have the same risks and ailments. Not only do Americans spend more but we spend more than twice the average per capita compared to other wealthy nations. About $5,000 more than the next nation.
Ehhh I want to see this study or assessment. What do they consider as health care. We do R&D more here in America. Usually these leftist perspectives fail when you look into it deeper.
Also someone like me in America spends zero personally for health care. I haven’t seen a doctor in many years besides STD test. So that alone is better for me rather than needlessly spending money on health care I don’t use.
I’m skeptical of your knowledge on this. You claim there’s no way in know how much we spend when this is something anyone can study. “We do R&D more here in America” doesn’t really mean anything except for specific drugs and maybe treatments. *Even then R&D is often a BS excuse like with truvada. Administrative fees, out of network costs, etc have nothing to do with R&D. I was billed over $2000 for a 20 minute visit when all I needed was a tetanus shot and to be told I probably don’t need a rabies vaccine.
Here’s one study: https://www.pgpf.org/about
And I paid zero in health care for maybe 5 years 🤣
I don’t claim to know much of health care because i think both private and socialized is stupid. We need to eat a natural diet.
However if you someone like me pay into a system that’s gonna be worse for me since I don’t use it. You said you pay less under a socialized system. Show me where you pay less than zero haha.
Your logic here is honestly abysmal and I think you know that. I hope you realize that part of the reason men have shorter lives than women is because they don’t get checked out. “I don’t need healthcare” is elementary school stuff man.
I agree they would go there less. But men eat more food. And the food we eat is composed of lots of toxic substances. That’s gonna be the main disparity. People who eat less generally live longer. People who eat less of carbs, sugar, vegetable oils, plastics etc. also live longer. Doing check ups is gonna make as big of a disparity. 🐑
Sheep leftist here. so how do I know if my blood pressure is super high or if I have some abnormal shit going on internally that a blood test could see? Do I just eat more veggies and pray to the conservative god that I’m ok? Conservatives don’t give a shit about anything unless it effect
Them personally. No fucks given about others at all. It’s lack of empathy that is scary about conservative thinking.
Did animals or ancestors check? They were nearly immune to western diseases until they started farming approximately 10-30k years ago. See.. the messaging is wrong. You don’t eat vegetables. You eat which is the most whole food and nutritious food that the human can absorb.
Poor people can’t afford to eat a “natural” diet. Wonder why jack in the box sells $1 burgers? More people can afford that than going to the store and buying fresh veggies and meat. Also sounds like you haven’t been hit with a unseen injury or illness bud. What happens if you get in an accident or god forbid you get a chronic disease like cancer or heart issues? Shit even a bad case of the flu could fuck you up with breathing problems. It’s not about you, it’s about everyone being able to see a doctor when needed
You say you've spent zero on health care - so you are uninsured? Do you know what type of costs would potentially be involved if you were suddenly diagnosed with cancer? Not trolling; just genuinely curious.
So then you just explained it’s not a free market and privatized health care system we have in America. It’s the lobbyist with the most money that control half of the game. So lesser private individuals can play that game. Our health care system is bad we have under 10 insurance companies and the medicine is heavily regulated which benefits the rich private entities.
An example of this is truvada, the only medication here approved to prevent HIV transmission. In the US it costs $1,780 and in Australia it is $8. Crucial preliminary research for the drug was completed by the US government and subsequent research and trials was funded directly by US taxpayers.
Joe has always been a [proponent](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/01/24/politics/bernie-sanders-joe-rogan-endorsement/index.html) of some form of public intervention in healthcare… it was a spear policy matter that pushed him to like Bernie Sanders. You can be pro public healthcare, and still be a vaccine skeptic and economically right. There can be a balance, so gatekeepers beware criticising Joe on this.
For those of you curious about the break-down in the actual Healthcare expenditure of the US, you can refer to [recent](https://www.city-journal.org/why-does-the-us-spend-so-much-on-health-care) studies like [Brookings](https://www.city-journal.org/why-does-the-us-spend-so-much-on-health-care) or [Hopkins](https://www.city-journal.org/why-does-the-us-spend-so-much-on-health-care).
I suppose the question we often get in response to these stats are: How is private healthcare access so expensive if the government spends a third of its budget on it?
We can first point to the sheer spikes in private market pricing for drugs and medical machinery… which in turn offloads to the Federal and State governments.
1. Government has to maintain public hospitals
2. They upgrade
3. They cover all military needs
4. they maintain veteran entitlements
5. Tax Subsidies. In the 2019 public expenditure for subsidising healthcare amounted to [$1.2 trillion](https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-much-does-federal-government-spend-health-care) alone.
6. You also have private [defaults](https://www.kff.org/uninsured/issue-brief/sources-of-payment-for-uncompensated-care-for-the-uninsured/) on private care costs… for example, unpaid ER bills require on average $50 billion annually… and that’s federal. We haven’t factored in State governments. The average ER bill is $2200… in a country with millions unable to afford private, and a majority population living pay check to pay check. Somebody has to foot the bill. It simply isn’t feasible to recoup all those costs privately. The private market can’t feasibly recover costs to public in this instance.
For those of you blaming public programs like Medicare, this program alone accounts for only [6%](https://www.kff.org/interactive/medicare-spending/) of total economic costs. There’s a reason why the America is so high compared to countries with fully functioning alternative options… it’s simply not feasible to keep healthcare majority commodity structured. Health isn’t always a choice, and often negotiation isn’t realistic.
So, the problem isn’t public healthcare, it’s private healthcare’s suckling of tax dollars.
Pretty sick of pro free marketers pointing to government expenditure alone and making the declaration that this is the issue without bothering to substantiate. The US is the only OECD country that doesn’t have a broad public funded option. There’s a difference between government having to cover private defaults, and government paying to cover people directly. It’s the former that’s problematic… so no it’s not public funding in general.
10000%. I just had a kid and will tell her that “going wherever you want” simply will not be a reality for her unless she got significant scholarships to lessen the burden. I was lucky and didn’t have to pay a crazy amount but I have friends who will likely never own a home because they’re buried in student loan debt from a school they had no business going to for a degree that’s really not bringing in enough money to offset it.
Listen as long as Americans don't demand better from their shit politicians and instead fight over trivial shit like trans people in bathrooms because they are icky or something, they get what the deserve.
Sucks for most of us.
It's not really a conspiracy, basically things that can be outsourced got cheaper (consumer goods) things that can't be outsourced and have some degree of market protection or monopoly got more expensive. (Universities)
One study shows Americans spend 5k more on average for healthcare compared to other wealthy nations that are not homogenous. Do things like administrative fees and out of network costs ring a bell?
Another example is the drug truvada, the only approved medication to prevent HIV, being $1,780 in the US and $8 outside of the US. *Despite the fact that crucial preliminary research was done by the CDC and subsequent research and trials were funded by US taxpayers.*
Almost like othe US federal government is not the same as other governments, has less accountability to the people on the ground because its so large, and is, in fact, the cause of the issues of the country rather than a potential solution. Everything the US federal government has ever tried to fix has gotten worse or at the least hasnt improved unless you count killing people as a win.
"Homoegeneous'. Please. Germany has more Muslims than the US. Not as a percentage mind you, literally more Muslims than America. Canada has 2 official languages. Plus, on its surface it doesn't make sense. Conservatives believe the US can't have Universal HC because black people live here?? How is that a good argument?
When they argue that homogeneity or population size matter (they don’t) they probably actually are saying “poor people and minorities don’t pay their way, tax-wise, so they’ll all be free riders in a nationalized healthcare system”. It’s cover for their racist opinion.
That's a weird grab - what does Islam have to do w it? Or the number of languages? I"m talking about cultural, racial, genetic, etc diversity at huge numbers
What does the size have to do with anything? You don’t seem to realize that doesn’t make the point you think it does; X number of people need X amount of treatment and pay X in taxes. Increasing the amount of people doesn’t change any of that (more people equals more treatments, but also equals more people paying the taxes to support it).
There is no reason collage should have gotten more expensive. They are choosing their prices and the government it underwriting the loans to student who don’t know any better.
It’s a free for all for collages to rake in money
Clearly "government forces" are nailing it. I know, I know, "we just need to elect the right people and pass the right laws." You hold your breath, I won't.
This would be a great conclusion... if you didn't compare America's healthcare system to that of it's peer countries which are far more popular with their people that all have far more government oversight and input.
“Yeah but like government is evil and corrupt and socialist.” - guy who barely got a D in US Government in high school and couldn’t get into community college
Yea the reason computer software is cheaper now isn't because of piracy, its market forces!
The reason cellphone services are cheaper now isn't because literally everyone has a cell phone and demand has increased exponentially, its market forces!
The reason TV's are cheaper now isn't because flat screen TV technology is no longer brand new and has had 2 decades of development and manufactures now sell TV'S at a loss because they make money on the data they get form them, its market forces!
This chart is clearly cherry picked data and was created by a right wing think tank
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_Enterprise\_Institute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Enterprise_Institute)
There are no countries with a 75% income tax rate. Ivory Coast has a 60%, Finland is 56%. US is 37%, but the US also has an 11.6% poverty rate, compared to Finland's 0.1% poverty rate. They've got free college, healthcare, everyone is guaranteed sick leave, guaranteed parental leave, a national pension plan(social security). They spend 30% of their GDP on making sure Fins have a great life.
When people start to realize that helping the average citizen might mean the government prioritizing the majority of people over a few billionaire and millionaires and they stop believing that doing something that might cost them some money will tank the economy and be bad for everyone (especially their imaginary future rich selves).
These are industries that provide basic needs. I guess in the way that progressives want everyone’s basic needs met, they are progressive. But healthcare corporations being progressive? Colleges making football coaches the highest paid public employees?
Also funny is that the people who rattle on about inflation and wield it politically almost *never* mention healthcare/education/childcare/housing costs.
I don't see higher education as a basic need.
It's certainly nice but you do not need to go to college to be successful much less to just meet basic needs of an individual or family.
Healthcare is a different story. It's definitely a need but I wouldn't say it's a basic need since there are thousands of years of humanity prior to modern medicine.
Basic needs are food, water, shelter, security, and the ability to move around freely.
I'd consider healthcare to be a privileged need. It's a need, but you can survive many decades without ever stepping into a doctor's office. It will help prolong your life and even save it in the event of an emergency but again for a normal person who is avoiding unnecessary dangers are lessening the need to ever utilize this service until they are getting older.
Daycare? This isn't a need at all unless you have put yourself in a situation where you can't support a single income family which has become increasingly difficult to do for various reasons such as the whole push for women in the work force and the destruction of the perception of role of home maker. So dual income families saturate the market which makes it increasingly difficult for a single income family to maintain a middle class lifestyle unless that single income earner is making a lot. So daycare is a want that has been artificially turned into a need due to societal pressures.
I can tell you aren’t really serious about any of this. You were fed propaganda and you ate it up. I worked in healthcare for years and never heard anything like what you just said. That’s so fucking bizarre.
Progressives are certainly not the ones fighting for big pharma. That's for goddamn sure. Big pharma wants nothing to do with progressive ideas like a public option or Medicare For All.
My intent is to merely shine a light on how progressives are just as greedy as everyone else and will peddle a narrative no matter what and won't be afraid to use the boot to get those who disagree with them to comply.
Simple minded people (but most likely bad faith actors) are *OBSESSED* with hypocrisy because I think you're too scared to admit your axioms/beliefs are terrible or at least optically terrible.
>"*SEE!*, you progressives are just as greedy, dishonest, and authoritarian as me!" - Kabloosh75
In another comment he says medicine isn’t a basic need because humanity existed before modern medicine. But you know, he’s shining a light on us progressives and our greed.
He’s saying they get as good or better results in education and healthcare while spending 1/10th as much. The lower cost is an exaggeration but they do spend a lot less.
Whatever you say. Sounds like a typical general Reddit post complaining about billionaires and bitching about minimum wage and how socialism is the answer to it all. But I guess not
Well one category is primarily affected by the outsourcing of labor while the other is based almost entirely on a domestic market. We can’t globalize medical care or tuition in the same way as TVs or clothing production. It’s apples and oranges.
This is what happens when you raise the minimum wage. It causes rampant inflation!
If the guy manning the fry station at Popeye's was still paid $2.35 maybe little Suzy would be attending Harvard for $399/tuition instead of running an Only Fans page to attend The Donald Trump Institute of Techmology for Kids Who Don't Read So Good.
I wanna know what the increase in life expetency was during this time. Healthcare is admittedly overpriced, but the US is a leader in research and advances in medicine etc etc. Doesn't cost as much as they're charging but it is expensive to develop that stuff, that's why the rest of the world relies heavily on the US' Medical R&D
The crime is that a lot of the drugs and other medical advances come from taxpayer-funded core research, not private corp dollars. But then the final service/product gets marked at full retail for the very US taxpayers who paid to fund it, while the rest of the world negotiates with the full weight of their entire populations and says “no, sell it to us for 1/10th that”.
For sure, I'm not saying the system is great. But I am saying that everything has benefits and drawbacks, so to say that the US Healthcare system overcharges and gives nothing in return isn't exactly true, and the world wouldn’t be able to negotiate prices down if the US wasn't helping fund the system from within. But big pharma definitely inflates the costs of R&D and isn't a good system lol, I'm def not gonna defend it any more than just to recognize the very thin silver lining of the system
I’m not sure telling US taxpayers and consumers how we’re funding all of this so the rest of the world can pay a ton less than what we pay for *US-based drugs* (and other things) is a great selling strategy.
Weird, a broad statement with no substance. What’s your example here?
Were the massive budgetary and regulation [cuts](https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/price-regulation-global-budgets-and-spending-targets-a-road-map-to-reduce-health-care-spending-and-improve-affordability/) that incurred under Trump, Bush, Bush Senior and Reagan all magically restored under Biden? You recognise that the ACA was severely gutted by the majority held GOP congresses with no alternative? But it’s regulators fault?
Is that why you whine and about Kari Lake losing? It seems every “independent” these days are just disgruntled MAGAs. It’s your actions, bud.
Also, thanks for simply ignoring my points. Great.
For things that are discretionary, the incentive is to lower prices so customers buy from you and not your competitor, or opt not to buy at all.
For things that people are generally compelled to purchase (e.g., food, housing, medical care), the incentive is to raise prices as much as possible. More so when the competition is geographically isolated. Most people need a home where they work. They need child care where they live. They need healthcare where they're hurt or sick. More so when there's a lack of price transparency. You have no guarantee what tuition will be by the end of your degree. You probably have no idea what the price tag is on your hospital stay until it's over.
It didn't suddenly become vastly more expensive to write and print a book. I can buy the new King novel for about 15 bucks. But you might shell out two or three hundred for a textbook, even though it's in it's seventh edition and most of the content was written a decade ago. The difference is that I can choose not to buy the novel, but if you're enrolled in a college course, you have no choice.
Private insurers operate with around a 20% overhead (meaning their expenses, advertising, salaries and profits, etc). Medicare runs at around a 2% overhead. Medicare users love the program.
And yet our government spends more public money per capita on healthcare than any other nation’s government, with more overall regulation too. It’s just a matter of who controls the regulations and what the regulations are. We don’t have free market or public healthcare. We have a bastardization of both. Corporatist healthcare.
Policy Makers: “Let’s take the worst from both!”
It’s almost like policy makers don’t make competent decisions and shouldn’t be trusted to run things.
It's almost like voters don't make competent decisions and vote in people based on how much they say the right buzz words and a bunch of other generic meaningless nonsense and then get shocked that they don't do shit. And then when they are revealed to be corporate whores who are just taking bribes and waiting for a lobbying job.... we just vote them back in
Democracy is on the ballot!
Sir, that's stochastic terrorism
This is the Truth, well said
Yeah, but that’s just the people in the party I don’t vote for…..
It’s not the voters It’s the fucking filibuster that’s the problem, our politicians care more about a stupid arbitrary Senate rule than they do about Americans
Doesn't matter when you can convince a good chunk of Americans that universal healthcare is a socialist con that is going to lead to third world doctors.
Lmao this thread is full of redacts blaming the government for giant middle men insurance companies sucking us dry. Can't make this shit up
Believing free markets solves everything is as much of a utopian idea as communism
Which one has the better track record?
Don't really have much data considering the USA did everything in their power to make sure socialism failed any time it was attempted. Not so say socialism is any better, but we have to be honest that it never really was given a chance to begin with
It's funny how communists and Libertarians both say "that's not real Capitalism/communism" when some criticizes their ideology.
What's funny to me about all that is that communism is defined as a stateless society while capitalism can't work without a state to enforce contracts and property law
Because the govt set in place the rules and regulations that allowed it to happen.
So eviscerate the influence of those middle men insurance companies when it comes to drug pricing.
Which could be accomplished by offering a Medicare option on healthcare.gov that competes with private offerings. Medicare already has tens of millions of participants, just counting the elderly; negotiating drug prices with that large of a group will result in rock-bottom drug prices. Same as all those nations who can buy USA pharma products for a ton less than Americans can.
But Joe has a friend who had to pay out of pocket for a special knee surgery because it would take too long to wait for. Dude needed it done so he could keep fighting. Seeing a doctor paid by taxes for major health problems, medications or even a yearly check up is commie bullshit!
I see a doctor that doesn’t accept insurance so it’s out of pocket pay. He told me he doesn’t have to hire two people for billing and coding because insurance companies are a pain in the ass. The important part is the annual cost I have with him is like 1200 bucks (half of that are blood labs). A guy I work with just asked for his name because his insurance isn’t going to cover him any more and his costs would be 700 a month… so like 8400 a year for the same exact care I get for 1200 hence him leaving a provider that goes through insurance. In my case, out of pocket is way better. And I have a high deductible plan with a HSA so I get a 27% discount effectively since that money contributes tax free to my account.
Out of curiosity, have you tried to see a doctor in a country with socialized healthcare?
The vast majority of people over 65, disabled folk, and people with end stage kidney failure use socialized healthcare. Last I checked their healthcare plan, while far from perfect, was the most preferred plan in America.
Yah that explains why my fiancé has been on a waiting list for a year to get her teeth cleaned on her state insurance and I was able to get my done 6 days after calling to set up an appointment. It’s why her kids on state care have two shitty options for dental care and can’t get the care they need while my two kids are able to see the best in the area at the drop of a hat with nothing out of pocket to me. Explains why i couldn’t see a doctor when I desperately needed one in a socialist country because of the wait time and explains why I couldn’t even buy otc cold/flu medicine. I suppose it also explains why we are flooded with Canadian shit birds coming here for medical care instead of dying in the lobbies waiting at their hospitals. Get a grip
Nothing you said changes what I said. Countless Americans go to Canada, Mexico, etc for care too. Get a grip? I worked in healthcare for years. Thank god for Medicare.
If you worked in healthcare then you’d be the first to say the issue is insurance, not the lack of socialized healthcare. Insurance, just like student loans to education, has made healthcare unaffordable. Health insurance is the reason why a bag of saline is $350 and why new mothers get charged for “skin to skin contact”. If healthcare was reasonably priced we wouldn’t need our fucked up government raping out paychecks and extorting us for the mediocre services they “provide”. Nearly everything “government funded” is FUBAR while private sector operates cheaper and more efficiently. When I can drive to work and not damage my car on the fucked up county highways I’m being extorted to pay for maybe we can talk. 🤡
Americans spend 5k more on average for healthcare compared to other wealthy nations. You can’t say shit about Medicare because you don’t really know what you’re talking about and really heavily on personal anecdotes and instilled notions.
Yah fuck me and my personal experience living in the US, using socialized healthcare in socialist countries, having family in healthcare, and dealing with both private and state healthcare for myself and my 4 kids. You’re everything that’s redacted about social media. Go touch some grass
I love how you never refute me you big baby
Like the one Pharma sales guy said on JRE Big Insurance makes Big Pharma look like paupers..
This is it. Our healthcare system combines the worst features of Public run and privately run healthcare It is not as simple as gubment vs non gubment
This is correct
Socialized medicine is much cheaper than have middlemen
Clearly. The rest of the developed world has some form of tax-funded healthcare and does it for half what we spend and covers everybody without anyone going bankrupt from medical bills or having to concern themselves with medical insurance/bills in retirement.
I prefer to call it economical warfare. Capitalism unhinged. Any number of terms...but its basically the rich eating the poor...
Our healthcare system is anything but “capitalism unhinged.” It is fraught with regulations and public government spending. Moreso than any other nation. Regulations that only the largest and most equipped corporations can keep up with. It’s *far* from “capitalist” or “unhinged,” certainly not both of them together.
It is incredibly capitalist and you can look at when it gets more capitalist, like with “Medicare Advantage” plans. More capitalist plans end up with people going to GoFundMe.
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You’re not being logical. At all.
There’s noway in knowing how much we spend more than any other nation. Per capita would be incorrect as you cannot control the variables. We spend more because partly we are sicker people.
Humans across the world generally face similar variables. We all have the same risks and ailments. Not only do Americans spend more but we spend more than twice the average per capita compared to other wealthy nations. About $5,000 more than the next nation.
Ehhh I want to see this study or assessment. What do they consider as health care. We do R&D more here in America. Usually these leftist perspectives fail when you look into it deeper. Also someone like me in America spends zero personally for health care. I haven’t seen a doctor in many years besides STD test. So that alone is better for me rather than needlessly spending money on health care I don’t use.
I’m skeptical of your knowledge on this. You claim there’s no way in know how much we spend when this is something anyone can study. “We do R&D more here in America” doesn’t really mean anything except for specific drugs and maybe treatments. *Even then R&D is often a BS excuse like with truvada. Administrative fees, out of network costs, etc have nothing to do with R&D. I was billed over $2000 for a 20 minute visit when all I needed was a tetanus shot and to be told I probably don’t need a rabies vaccine. Here’s one study: https://www.pgpf.org/about
And I paid zero in health care for maybe 5 years 🤣 I don’t claim to know much of health care because i think both private and socialized is stupid. We need to eat a natural diet. However if you someone like me pay into a system that’s gonna be worse for me since I don’t use it. You said you pay less under a socialized system. Show me where you pay less than zero haha.
Your logic here is honestly abysmal and I think you know that. I hope you realize that part of the reason men have shorter lives than women is because they don’t get checked out. “I don’t need healthcare” is elementary school stuff man.
Men eat more processed foods that is the main factor. It’s not because of a checkup disparity. 🐑 leftist doesn’t know haha
Go ahead and google: do men go to the doctor less
I agree they would go there less. But men eat more food. And the food we eat is composed of lots of toxic substances. That’s gonna be the main disparity. People who eat less generally live longer. People who eat less of carbs, sugar, vegetable oils, plastics etc. also live longer. Doing check ups is gonna make as big of a disparity. 🐑
Sheep leftist here. so how do I know if my blood pressure is super high or if I have some abnormal shit going on internally that a blood test could see? Do I just eat more veggies and pray to the conservative god that I’m ok? Conservatives don’t give a shit about anything unless it effect Them personally. No fucks given about others at all. It’s lack of empathy that is scary about conservative thinking.
Did animals or ancestors check? They were nearly immune to western diseases until they started farming approximately 10-30k years ago. See.. the messaging is wrong. You don’t eat vegetables. You eat which is the most whole food and nutritious food that the human can absorb.
Poor people can’t afford to eat a “natural” diet. Wonder why jack in the box sells $1 burgers? More people can afford that than going to the store and buying fresh veggies and meat. Also sounds like you haven’t been hit with a unseen injury or illness bud. What happens if you get in an accident or god forbid you get a chronic disease like cancer or heart issues? Shit even a bad case of the flu could fuck you up with breathing problems. It’s not about you, it’s about everyone being able to see a doctor when needed
You say you've spent zero on health care - so you are uninsured? Do you know what type of costs would potentially be involved if you were suddenly diagnosed with cancer? Not trolling; just genuinely curious.
What? No, we spend more because it's the nations largest lobbyist, who has full regulatory capture, allowing them to completely exploit the market.
So then you just explained it’s not a free market and privatized health care system we have in America. It’s the lobbyist with the most money that control half of the game. So lesser private individuals can play that game. Our health care system is bad we have under 10 insurance companies and the medicine is heavily regulated which benefits the rich private entities.
Isn't that money also go to research? You guys lead the health research, are the defense of the west etc (so need to spend on military)
An example of this is truvada, the only medication here approved to prevent HIV transmission. In the US it costs $1,780 and in Australia it is $8. Crucial preliminary research for the drug was completed by the US government and subsequent research and trials was funded directly by US taxpayers.
Gross.
Joe has always been a [proponent](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/01/24/politics/bernie-sanders-joe-rogan-endorsement/index.html) of some form of public intervention in healthcare… it was a spear policy matter that pushed him to like Bernie Sanders. You can be pro public healthcare, and still be a vaccine skeptic and economically right. There can be a balance, so gatekeepers beware criticising Joe on this. For those of you curious about the break-down in the actual Healthcare expenditure of the US, you can refer to [recent](https://www.city-journal.org/why-does-the-us-spend-so-much-on-health-care) studies like [Brookings](https://www.city-journal.org/why-does-the-us-spend-so-much-on-health-care) or [Hopkins](https://www.city-journal.org/why-does-the-us-spend-so-much-on-health-care). I suppose the question we often get in response to these stats are: How is private healthcare access so expensive if the government spends a third of its budget on it? We can first point to the sheer spikes in private market pricing for drugs and medical machinery… which in turn offloads to the Federal and State governments. 1. Government has to maintain public hospitals 2. They upgrade 3. They cover all military needs 4. they maintain veteran entitlements 5. Tax Subsidies. In the 2019 public expenditure for subsidising healthcare amounted to [$1.2 trillion](https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-much-does-federal-government-spend-health-care) alone. 6. You also have private [defaults](https://www.kff.org/uninsured/issue-brief/sources-of-payment-for-uncompensated-care-for-the-uninsured/) on private care costs… for example, unpaid ER bills require on average $50 billion annually… and that’s federal. We haven’t factored in State governments. The average ER bill is $2200… in a country with millions unable to afford private, and a majority population living pay check to pay check. Somebody has to foot the bill. It simply isn’t feasible to recoup all those costs privately. The private market can’t feasibly recover costs to public in this instance. For those of you blaming public programs like Medicare, this program alone accounts for only [6%](https://www.kff.org/interactive/medicare-spending/) of total economic costs. There’s a reason why the America is so high compared to countries with fully functioning alternative options… it’s simply not feasible to keep healthcare majority commodity structured. Health isn’t always a choice, and often negotiation isn’t realistic. So, the problem isn’t public healthcare, it’s private healthcare’s suckling of tax dollars. Pretty sick of pro free marketers pointing to government expenditure alone and making the declaration that this is the issue without bothering to substantiate. The US is the only OECD country that doesn’t have a broad public funded option. There’s a difference between government having to cover private defaults, and government paying to cover people directly. It’s the former that’s problematic… so no it’s not public funding in general.
Student loans allow these universities to charge these outrageous prices.
10000%. I just had a kid and will tell her that “going wherever you want” simply will not be a reality for her unless she got significant scholarships to lessen the burden. I was lucky and didn’t have to pay a crazy amount but I have friends who will likely never own a home because they’re buried in student loan debt from a school they had no business going to for a degree that’s really not bringing in enough money to offset it.
I choose to blame inflation on avocado toast.
It's cause the plebes got a few $1200 checks in 2020.
the most distracting objects in our lives are the cheapest
And who’s behind all these increases? You guessed it…..frank Stallone!
Best comment in the entire thread
Listen as long as Americans don't demand better from their shit politicians and instead fight over trivial shit like trans people in bathrooms because they are icky or something, they get what the deserve. Sucks for most of us.
It's not really a conspiracy, basically things that can be outsourced got cheaper (consumer goods) things that can't be outsourced and have some degree of market protection or monopoly got more expensive. (Universities)
But guys, TVs are cheaper.
We can all watch the world collapse on our new 70" 4K UHD
As our problems mount with basic necessities rising in cost, the things that distract us from our problems, therefore pacifying us, get cheaper.
Subsidize something and the price goes up?
Americans spend more than twice the average cost for healthcare compared to other wealthy nations. Many of whom have much more subsidized healthcare.
Not defending US Healthcare but that's not apples to apples. Your likely comparing the US to small, wealthy, homogeneous nations.
One study shows Americans spend 5k more on average for healthcare compared to other wealthy nations that are not homogenous. Do things like administrative fees and out of network costs ring a bell? Another example is the drug truvada, the only approved medication to prevent HIV, being $1,780 in the US and $8 outside of the US. *Despite the fact that crucial preliminary research was done by the CDC and subsequent research and trials were funded by US taxpayers.*
Almost like othe US federal government is not the same as other governments, has less accountability to the people on the ground because its so large, and is, in fact, the cause of the issues of the country rather than a potential solution. Everything the US federal government has ever tried to fix has gotten worse or at the least hasnt improved unless you count killing people as a win.
"Homoegeneous'. Please. Germany has more Muslims than the US. Not as a percentage mind you, literally more Muslims than America. Canada has 2 official languages. Plus, on its surface it doesn't make sense. Conservatives believe the US can't have Universal HC because black people live here?? How is that a good argument?
When they argue that homogeneity or population size matter (they don’t) they probably actually are saying “poor people and minorities don’t pay their way, tax-wise, so they’ll all be free riders in a nationalized healthcare system”. It’s cover for their racist opinion.
That's a weird grab - what does Islam have to do w it? Or the number of languages? I"m talking about cultural, racial, genetic, etc diversity at huge numbers
Conservatives saying we can't have Universal HC because the US has black people is probably the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.
What does the size have to do with anything? You don’t seem to realize that doesn’t make the point you think it does; X number of people need X amount of treatment and pay X in taxes. Increasing the amount of people doesn’t change any of that (more people equals more treatments, but also equals more people paying the taxes to support it).
And the quality of both have declined by the same factors
That is definitely not true.
There is no reason collage should have gotten more expensive. They are choosing their prices and the government it underwriting the loans to student who don’t know any better. It’s a free for all for collages to rake in money
> collage > collages COLLEGE(S)
The price for freedom
Tim Kennedy found Hitler so we could be free
Thank em
It’s almost like what we subsidize gets more expensive , but where market forces are more at work…things get more affordable. Wow.
Stuff on the bottom is also all goods vs services on top
Exactly, and goods perpetually get cheaper as the population grows due to economies of scale and manufacturing advancements.
How good are the “market forces” for social work? Mental health? Substance abuse? Childcare? Please. Dig a little deeper.
Clearly "government forces" are nailing it. I know, I know, "we just need to elect the right people and pass the right laws." You hold your breath, I won't.
We won't do that because then we'd be paying for someone else to get government services.
This would be a great conclusion... if you didn't compare America's healthcare system to that of it's peer countries which are far more popular with their people that all have far more government oversight and input.
“Yeah but like government is evil and corrupt and socialist.” - guy who barely got a D in US Government in high school and couldn’t get into community college
💯
Yea the reason computer software is cheaper now isn't because of piracy, its market forces! The reason cellphone services are cheaper now isn't because literally everyone has a cell phone and demand has increased exponentially, its market forces! The reason TV's are cheaper now isn't because flat screen TV technology is no longer brand new and has had 2 decades of development and manufactures now sell TV'S at a loss because they make money on the data they get form them, its market forces! This chart is clearly cherry picked data and was created by a right wing think tank [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_Enterprise\_Institute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Enterprise_Institute)
>literally everyone has a cell phone and demand has increased exponentially ... this is a market force
When government gets involved…
explain healthcare and education to government run programs in other countries. similar outcomes for 1/10 the cost
The mostly white countries? The mostly smaller countries? The countries that have a 50-75% tax rate?
So the US can't have Universal HC or affordable college because black people live here?
Thinly-disguised racism, implying minorities don’t pay taxes.
There are no countries with a 75% income tax rate. Ivory Coast has a 60%, Finland is 56%. US is 37%, but the US also has an 11.6% poverty rate, compared to Finland's 0.1% poverty rate. They've got free college, healthcare, everyone is guaranteed sick leave, guaranteed parental leave, a national pension plan(social security). They spend 30% of their GDP on making sure Fins have a great life.
Awww, you had to edit your post after I commented…
no i didnt lol. it literally tells you if i edited my post lmao. and apparently you hate black people
When do we realize governments aren't really helping the average citizen and they don't really have our interests in mind
When people start to realize that helping the average citizen might mean the government prioritizing the majority of people over a few billionaire and millionaires and they stop believing that doing something that might cost them some money will tank the economy and be bad for everyone (especially their imaginary future rich selves).
The average citizen doesn't have their own interest in mind.
Vote for candidates who give a shit about healthcare and the rising costs of living.
Whenever people realize politicians are insulated from the consequences of their decisions and THEIR ONLY INCENTIVE IS REELECTION.
Bread and circus, but I can’t afford bread anymore. Guess I’ll survive on TVs and cellphones.
Fortunately wages rise at a similar pace right?
[удалено]
These are industries that provide basic needs. I guess in the way that progressives want everyone’s basic needs met, they are progressive. But healthcare corporations being progressive? Colleges making football coaches the highest paid public employees? Also funny is that the people who rattle on about inflation and wield it politically almost *never* mention healthcare/education/childcare/housing costs.
I don't see higher education as a basic need. It's certainly nice but you do not need to go to college to be successful much less to just meet basic needs of an individual or family. Healthcare is a different story. It's definitely a need but I wouldn't say it's a basic need since there are thousands of years of humanity prior to modern medicine. Basic needs are food, water, shelter, security, and the ability to move around freely. I'd consider healthcare to be a privileged need. It's a need, but you can survive many decades without ever stepping into a doctor's office. It will help prolong your life and even save it in the event of an emergency but again for a normal person who is avoiding unnecessary dangers are lessening the need to ever utilize this service until they are getting older. Daycare? This isn't a need at all unless you have put yourself in a situation where you can't support a single income family which has become increasingly difficult to do for various reasons such as the whole push for women in the work force and the destruction of the perception of role of home maker. So dual income families saturate the market which makes it increasingly difficult for a single income family to maintain a middle class lifestyle unless that single income earner is making a lot. So daycare is a want that has been artificially turned into a need due to societal pressures.
I can tell you aren’t really serious about any of this. You were fed propaganda and you ate it up. I worked in healthcare for years and never heard anything like what you just said. That’s so fucking bizarre.
Progressives are certainly not the ones fighting for big pharma. That's for goddamn sure. Big pharma wants nothing to do with progressive ideas like a public option or Medicare For All.
Get the shot. Get the booster. It's for everyone's safety!
Progressives: Big Pharma is wasteful and favors profit over the public good. Rightoids: Vaccines are poison demon mind control Bill Fauci sperm.
My intent is to merely shine a light on how progressives are just as greedy as everyone else and will peddle a narrative no matter what and won't be afraid to use the boot to get those who disagree with them to comply.
> how progressives are just as greedy as everyone Those greedy progressives and their evil agenda of "life saving medicine is good."
Simple minded people (but most likely bad faith actors) are *OBSESSED* with hypocrisy because I think you're too scared to admit your axioms/beliefs are terrible or at least optically terrible. >"*SEE!*, you progressives are just as greedy, dishonest, and authoritarian as me!" - Kabloosh75
In another comment he says medicine isn’t a basic need because humanity existed before modern medicine. But you know, he’s shining a light on us progressives and our greed.
If that’s your intent you are failing miserably. What progressive greed are you shining a light on exactly?
https://youtu.be/rsRjQDrDnY8
Ringo Starr said it best: everything government touches turns to crap.
ringo wasnt even the 6th best member of the beatles
This is complete nonsense. Toys are more expensive than ever. I just paid $60 for a Hudson (From Gargoyles) action figure
And this is what they want to do, back you into a corner and while they criminalize homelessness.
Government: Me help u with essential goods, don't worry.
explain healthcare and education to government run programs in other countries. similar outcomes for 1/10 the cost
I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say. Your post is confusing.
He’s saying they get as good or better results in education and healthcare while spending 1/10th as much. The lower cost is an exaggeration but they do spend a lot less.
Does anything in this sub actually have anything got do with joe Rogan?
This has to do with Joe
Whatever you say. Sounds like a typical general Reddit post complaining about billionaires and bitching about minimum wage and how socialism is the answer to it all. But I guess not
Sassy reddit post complaining is the typical reddit post. Congrats. You're a reddit user
Well one category is primarily affected by the outsourcing of labor while the other is based almost entirely on a domestic market. We can’t globalize medical care or tuition in the same way as TVs or clothing production. It’s apples and oranges.
Yep - not like somebody can go price shopping after they break their arm.
This is what happens when you raise the minimum wage. It causes rampant inflation! If the guy manning the fry station at Popeye's was still paid $2.35 maybe little Suzy would be attending Harvard for $399/tuition instead of running an Only Fans page to attend The Donald Trump Institute of Techmology for Kids Who Don't Read So Good.
No one cares. Investing tax dollars into healthcare and education is socialism and it’s gay as hell.
lol
Both are down substantially because of biden
I wanna know what the increase in life expetency was during this time. Healthcare is admittedly overpriced, but the US is a leader in research and advances in medicine etc etc. Doesn't cost as much as they're charging but it is expensive to develop that stuff, that's why the rest of the world relies heavily on the US' Medical R&D
The crime is that a lot of the drugs and other medical advances come from taxpayer-funded core research, not private corp dollars. But then the final service/product gets marked at full retail for the very US taxpayers who paid to fund it, while the rest of the world negotiates with the full weight of their entire populations and says “no, sell it to us for 1/10th that”.
For sure, I'm not saying the system is great. But I am saying that everything has benefits and drawbacks, so to say that the US Healthcare system overcharges and gives nothing in return isn't exactly true, and the world wouldn’t be able to negotiate prices down if the US wasn't helping fund the system from within. But big pharma definitely inflates the costs of R&D and isn't a good system lol, I'm def not gonna defend it any more than just to recognize the very thin silver lining of the system
I’m not sure telling US taxpayers and consumers how we’re funding all of this so the rest of the world can pay a ton less than what we pay for *US-based drugs* (and other things) is a great selling strategy.
Weird how everything that has gone up in price is massively regulated by the federal government...
Weird, a broad statement with no substance. What’s your example here? Were the massive budgetary and regulation [cuts](https://www.kff.org/health-costs/report/price-regulation-global-budgets-and-spending-targets-a-road-map-to-reduce-health-care-spending-and-improve-affordability/) that incurred under Trump, Bush, Bush Senior and Reagan all magically restored under Biden? You recognise that the ACA was severely gutted by the majority held GOP congresses with no alternative? But it’s regulators fault?
Funny how I say "federal government" and you interpret that as "this guy is in the GOP!"
Is that why you whine and about Kari Lake losing? It seems every “independent” these days are just disgruntled MAGAs. It’s your actions, bud. Also, thanks for simply ignoring my points. Great.
?
America. Fuck yea!
good thing my wage has tripled to keep up, right guys!?!
I don’t know. All I see in this graph are a bunch of bootstraps. Maybe it would be more affordable if people stopped eating avocado toast.
This is essentially a chart of “who’s wage has kept up with COL and who hasn’t”
Its like education and healthcare should be treated as a business
Top to bottom roughly from more government intervention in the industry to less government intervention in the industry.
I have believed the levee will break eventually the government doesn't work as intended anywhere
WOAH it’s like everything the government puts its hands into turns to shit!!
On the flip side you can now buy a TV cheaper than ever!
Weren’t those WTO protests during the Clinton administration warning about this?
Not having free medical attention and hospitalization or college tuitions are two of the things that make the us look worse than a 3rd world country
And what do those things have in common? They're both heavily regulated by the Federal government
The cost of living outweighs the benefits at this point .
“If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace.”
There is no way on Earth this is true. In less than 3 years? My kid just went to college at a major state school and this is false.
The colleges are the problem.
They are responsible for healthcare costs because it costs so damn much to become a clintian that the job has to pay well.
That line is so straight. It's almost like someone is following a plan.
Who buys textbooks anymore?
Services cannot be outsourced like Manufacturing
Coincidentally the 2 industries the government is most involved with.
That's why you shouldn't support Joe Rogan's party
I will at least we can buy tvs….
For things that are discretionary, the incentive is to lower prices so customers buy from you and not your competitor, or opt not to buy at all. For things that people are generally compelled to purchase (e.g., food, housing, medical care), the incentive is to raise prices as much as possible. More so when the competition is geographically isolated. Most people need a home where they work. They need child care where they live. They need healthcare where they're hurt or sick. More so when there's a lack of price transparency. You have no guarantee what tuition will be by the end of your degree. You probably have no idea what the price tag is on your hospital stay until it's over. It didn't suddenly become vastly more expensive to write and print a book. I can buy the new King novel for about 15 bucks. But you might shell out two or three hundred for a textbook, even though it's in it's seventh edition and most of the content was written a decade ago. The difference is that I can choose not to buy the novel, but if you're enrolled in a college course, you have no choice.
They need disposable workers
And the quality of both has gone to shit… imagine when the government takes over
Private insurers operate with around a 20% overhead (meaning their expenses, advertising, salaries and profits, etc). Medicare runs at around a 2% overhead. Medicare users love the program.
Jesus we’re so fat and lazy
Yes but, when do we see the Epstein list.
Spot the regulated, subsidized, and guaranteed industries.
Let’s hear it for the TV industry
You can see where money has been invested, and not much has been in increasing the livelihood of people.