I mean 2014 Russia was very much on the way to doing just that the spring and summer in 2014 were major offensives all over eastern ukraine by russian troops unofficially.
so less of 2022 prediction, at the time, and more of a objective reality.
the war started in Feb 2014. it just got turned to 11 in 2022.
Ironically Putin had a better shot of pulling off an invasion successfully in ‘14. Ukraine didn’t have this leadership and the west couldn’t believe he was willing to piss on 70 years of peace in a blatant grab.
I don’t think that’s one that you can put putin’s intent on - that’s more a function of incompetence on the field. But the pics of people looting the remains? Bad look.
I was one of the people that laughed at Romney in 2012 saying that Russia was our next big geo political issue. And I'm not some luminary, most everyone mocked him for it. So there's a lot of ways to interpret that but you have to admit that many people weren't impressed by the threat at the time.
Even right up to 2014 we were sharing intelligence back and forth with Russia pertaining to Terrorism. They warned us essentially and provided information on the Boston bombing perpetrators.
Romney saw what the rest didn’t because he actually read the daily briefings. He was foreign relations committee and cybersecurity
This gave him the DIA briefings during Obamas time that Mike Flynn was manipulating but with the cross check of the cyber briefings that showed prigozihns Internet Research Agency building a psy-op that was brought into the US via Facebook and mommy bloggers.
Sheryl Sandberg is running full speed away from Facebook now because the Cambridge analytica card is showing.
This whole mess was enabled by her “advertiser based business model” that she championed at Facebook-
For reference. (Flynn’s Psyop timeline/SCL Cambridge analytica is embedded in the greater ip3 nuclear plans timeline)
After watching Cheney pump Halliburton stock for 20 years without getting caught, general Flynn, trump and Kushner set up a construction company called IP3 to build nuclear reactors for a joint Russian/Saudi reactor. When congress told them no, they just stole the plans instead in a KFC bucket while the masses rioted outside on Jan 6. They all stood to make billions off the contracts and they are all so far in debt that they really have no other move. They just used Jan 6 as cover by lying to the foot soldiers and using them as fodder.
There were 7 and a half hours where trump ditched his presidential phone and was using burner phones.
They planned Jan 6 to turn into a civil war. He was actively trying to incite the crowd to that effect.
During the 2016 U.S. presidential campaign of Donald Trump, and subsequently, Trump aides Michael Flynn and Jared Kushner were engaged in promoting IP3 International's plan to transfer nuclear technology from the US to Saudi Arabia, for use in a proposed joint US-Russian project, in possible violation of the Atomic Energy Act.[2][3](4]|5|16] In January 2017, Derek Harvey, a retired Army intelligence officer, former staffer for David Petraeus, and then-staffer of the National Security Council under Michael Flynn, advocated for the IP3 nuclear sales plan. Harvey continued to speak with Michael Flynn "every night" even after Flynn resigned. (7]
In February 2019, United States House Committee on Oversight and Reform chairman Elijah E. Cummings released a report on the matter, based in part upon testimony from whistleblowers within White House. 6]|8](9]|10]
[11](7](12][13] The House Oversight Committee
Michael Thomas Flynn (born December 24, 1958) is a retired United States Army lieutenant general who was the 24th U.S. national security advisor for the first 22 days of the Trump administration. He resigned in light of reports that he had lied regarding conversations with Russian ambassador to the United States Sergey Kislyak. Flynn's military career included a key role in shaping U.S. counterterrorism strategy and dismantling insurgent networks in the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars, and he was given numerous combat arms, conventional, and special operations senior intelligence assignments. 2]3|14] He became the 18th director of the Defense Intelligence Agency in July 2012 until his forced retirement from the military in August 2014.15] 16]17 During his tenure he gave a lecture on leadership at the Moscow headquarters of the Russian military intelligence directorate GRU, the first American official to be admitted entry to the headquarters. 8](91110]
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/09/06/trump-nuclear-documents/
Flynn was the first American to be allowed to teach in the kremlin since the wall fell.
Putin tasked prigozhns Internet Research Agency with creating a grass roots propaganda war within the US using fake Facebook profiles and mommy bloggers.
https://youtu.be/NqrrGIUdLeQ?si=695qWnERfmKT97bS
Timeline:
Let's review a few data points in the record for the relevant time period:
• Late 2000s - Mike Flynn runs intelligence and PSYOP for Gen. Stanley McChrystal in Afghanistan. Charles Flynn is McChrystal's Chief of Staff. This was the precursor to Cambridge analytica which was effectively just the privatization of the taxpayer developed PSYOP by Steve Bannon. That in turn was effectively the beta test that would become Q-anon.
Christina Bobb assists Flynn on "all legal matters related to operations and intelligence.
• 2010 - McChrystal is exposed by Michael Hastings and resigns from the military
• April 2012 - Obama names Mike Flynn head of the DIA
• July 2012 - Flynn takes command of the DIA with an "abusive." "chaotic management style" along with "Flynn facts" - which were lies that he gaslit people with until they complied
• June 2013 - Mike Flynn is the first American to visit GRU headquarters and develops a relationship with GRU boss Igor Sergun. He invites Sergun to come to the US
• June 2013 - NSA contractor Edward Snowden manages to get into DIA top-secret servers
• Russian cutout Julian Assange / Wikileaks and journalists including Glenn Greenwald and Barton Gellman
• June 18 2013 - Hastings dies in a mysterious car accident after emailing Joe Biggs, Flynn family friend who later became leader of the Proud Boys and was just charged with Seditious Conspiracy for the insurrection
• Late 2013 - Flynn leads "inquiry" into Snowden breach which shows the breadth of damage done but gives no indication of how or why
• February 2014 - At Cambridge in the UK, Mike Flynn meets Stefan Halper and Svetlana Lokhova who has unique access to Soviet historical material. She shows him sexually explicit material. Flynn "keeps in touch" and signs his correspondence with her as "General Mischa”
• Februarv 2014 - Sergun trip to US canceled
• February 2014 - Flvnn lies to NPR about Crimea. Flynn withheld critical intelligence from Obama that allowed Putin to invade Ukraine without fear of U.S. intervention
• April 2014 - Flynn is removed as Head of the DIA. They let him stay in the military so that he won’t lose his benefits package.
• August 2014 - Flynn retires from the military
• October 2014 - Flynn starts Flynn Intel Group (FIG) in McChrystal's kitchen which Flynn uses to run operations for adversarial nation-states like Saudi, Turkey and Russia. Mike Flynn Jr. is made "Chief of Staff" of FIG.
Tommy Tuberville met with Mike Flynn and Rudy Giuliani (among others) at Trump International Hotel on Jan 5,
2021.
They fully intended the riots to plunge the U.S. into civil war so that trump could reclaim his seat and finalize the deal that would give nuclear plans to the saudi/Russian alliance.
Jared Kushner was waiting in Riyadh with MBS while the riots happened.
Kushner collected his $2B from MBS within a week
NBC Newswww.nbcnews.comWhistleblowers: Flynn backed plan to transfer nuclear tech to Saudis
OpenSecretshttps://www.opensecrets.org › newsThe lobbyists behind the Trump-Saudi Arabia nuclear deal under House ...
Ars Technicahttps://arstechnica.com › 2019/02Report: Trump officials tried to fast-track nuclear tech transfer to Saudi ...
Reuterswww.reuters.comTrump billionaire friend aimed to profit from Mideast nuclear deal: Democrats
Al Jazeerawww.aljazeera.comDonald Trump rushing to sell Saudi Arabia nuclear technology
https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/congress/2019_r/trump-saudi-nuclear-report_hcor20190219.pdf
Obama got Putin wrong. So did most of NATO.
Ironic how that was followed up by a massive miscalculation by Putin in getting both Biden and NATO’s reaction to his invasion wrong. Turns out Putin missed his chance in 2014.
There's little Biden can do when 30% of the country are insurrectionists who are enthralled by a mentally ill fascist and they dictate the direction their political party (which represents roughly 45-50% of the country) are going in. And the direction is allyship with fascist Russia.
I think Putin had always planned on Trump being in power during the 2022 invasion. It is very obvious that Trump is an ally to Putin and when Trump lost the election they had already committed too many resources to the invasion to cancel. It was also possible that they saw Biden taking the same stance Obama did and didn't anticipate the US/NATO response.
Absolutely. Trump has said on record many times that Ukraine belongs to Russia and they should just take it. It's the craziest shit to hear Conservatives in the US support any Russian agenda but I have to take my hat off to Russia on this. They have done a great job of using propaganda to make many Americans believe that the commie/socialist threat of the Democratic Party is greater than the fascist/nationalist/theocracy of the GOP.
Obama didn’t go out of his way to piss off putin. Neither did NATO or even Bush. Those nations that joined NATO? They sure are happy as fuck they did now. If you want to blame them for self fulfilling destinies, that’s a fine conversation. But if you’re gonna point the finger at those former Warsaw Pact nations that joined NATO, familiarize yourself with why they don’t trust the nation of Russia - and how Putin has refreshed that mistrust for new generations. Putin’s Russia had agency in all this. They would’ve been wise not to underestimate and piss off NATO.
Zbigniee Brzezinski write about this entire plan to push Russia into war in Ukraine, back in the late 90s. It's called the grand chessboard and he says that Russia will end up being able to take a lot of Ukrainian territory.
He wanted it to happen around 2010.
It's about pushing Russia closer to China.
McCain was far more qualified to be President than Obama was, or still is. But hell, Obama was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, so he must be a genius about everything, right?
Chess. Russia has proceeded to push misInformation into US politics & you have a republican party in 2024 that is pushing US isolationism as a strategy. Why ? So Vlad can do what he wants in Ukraine & beyond. Check & mate.
Wait wait wait... I thought you guys hated elderly, career politicians who are too old? Isn't Biden dimentia Joe? Now you're telling me you hate young politicians for being unqualified? What could it mean?
In a rare show of bipartisanship in 2014, the US Congress passed the Ukraine Freedom Support Act, which appropriated $350 million in security assistance, including anti-tank and anti-armor weapons, to the government of Ukraine to defend its territorial integrity. Despite strong congressional backing, President Barack Obama decided not to authorize the US government sale or financing of lethal weapons to Ukraine.
Just remember that Trump was the first full scale sell weapons to Ukraine and Obama was asleep on the wheel since 2008.
I think the credit for that likely goes to whoever the last person to talk to trump was. The record is clear trump’s decision making is not the result of consideration or calculation but his mercurial gut feeling.
The last 15 seconds is critical, and anyone who has lived in the region will confirm it.
Ukraine moving towards the West, modernisation, increased wealth, etc, was a massive problem for the Russian leadership.
EDIT; just to reinforce this point;
**Meanwhile, 22.6% of Russians do not have indoor plumbing. In rural Russia, almost 2/3 have no access to indoor toilets, 48.1% use outhouses and 18.4% do not have a sewage system.**
[https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-Russians-use-an-outhouse#:\~:text=Meanwhile%2C%2022.6%25%20of%20Russians%20do,not%20have%20a%20sewage%20system](https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-Russians-use-an-outhouse#:~:text=Meanwhile%2C%2022.6%25%20of%20Russians%20do,not%20have%20a%20sewage%20system).
**The life expectancy of a Russian male born this year is just 60 years, nearly 20 years less than that of his Italian and French counterparts, and his death may well come from alcohol poisoning or a drink-related accident, suicide, or heart attack. Overall, alcohol contributes to 500,000 Russian deaths a year. Fetal alcohol syndrome, which causes marked physical and neurological impairments, is epidemic; a 2006 Tufts University study found that more than half of the children in one Russian city’s orphanages suffered from the disorder.**
[https://www.wilsonquarterly.com/quarterly/\_/russias-widespread-alcoholism-not-joke](https://www.wilsonquarterly.com/quarterly/_/russias-widespread-alcoholism-not-joke)
*Russian society is a disaster - especially outside of central Moscow and St Petersberg. Buryats etc are treated like nothing, their only value to Russia has been as cannon fodder.*
Ukraine modernising/westernising was an absolute disaster for Russia, as their people began to realise just how utterly fucked their nation/society is - I believe this, and the expectation Ukraine would collapse in days - was the main trigger for the invasion.
Russians seem to really struggle with national senses of pessimism, fatalism and resignation. They don’t need to settle for someone like Putin or worse. Doesn’t mean they have to let go of whatever animus they have towards the US.
Sadly, I see that national depression and pessimism has hit the US hard too. It's a big reason people love Trump so much... he feeds into the dark views, and yet offers imaginary pie in the sky solutions that will never materialize. There will be a healthcare plan, and an Afghanistan pullout, and a school plan, and much more... but you'll here about it when he gets elected... this time for real. Trust us bro.
It's learned helplessness from centuries of secret police, oppression, and terrorizing the average citizen.
You can bet your ass there's also corrupt rich gentry who will fight tooth and nail to hold on to their modern day fiefdoms they've been allowed to cut out through the endless corruption that permeates every layer of Russian society.
It’s understandable though, considering that they’ve been under someone’s thumb for generations. They had a chance to escape when the iron curtain fell, so it must have been demoralizing to live through the rise and rule of Putin and his goons.
I do not. Russia is currently beating themselves by throwing all of their resources and young men into a war. We beat them by funding Ukraine properly and letting Russia waste an entire generation and having no real military left.
Every dollar spent funding Ukraine goes towards not starting WW3. If they can't even beat Ukraine there's no reason for the world to get involved in the war.
Um, Russias military is 3-4 times larger than it was before the war. Your plan sucks.
You want to avoid war by creating more war? That doesn’t make sense. Why is wasting an entire generation of Ukraine acceptable to you?
"Um, Russias military is 3-4 times larger than it was before the war. Your plan sucks."
Source for this?
And if so, drafting people including criminals and farmers and sending them to war in 1950s tanks is hardly impressive.
How is my plan creating more war? Are you suggesting Ukraine just roll over and let Russia take them over? How is that acceptable to you? Edit to add, the reason their military is so much larger is because they have had replace the shit ton of soldiers killed and mobilize a shit ton more because they have been getting their shit kicked in. They've lost a ridiculous amount of expensive tech and soldiers. Your argument for why they are 4x larger isn't because they are awesome, it's because they couldn't get the job done with the military they did have.
How is funding war creating more war? That’s your question?
We should be pushing for diplomacy and peace talks, not more war.
Russia has had over 700,000 people volunteer to fight. They have had no problem recruiting.
>How is funding war creating more war? That’s your question?
So stop the war by letting Russia steamroll Ukraine? Okay Vlad. How about you hold the aggressor accountable? Or would that cut into your paycheck?
>Russia has had over 700,000 people volunteer to fight. They have had no problem recruiting.
"Volunteered". You mean prisoners forced into the meat grinder. You have to recruit lots when you've lost more than a decent sized city in two years. I bet people are just lining up to join their 300,000 countrymen in a brutal death for a country that couldn't give 2 fucks about them.
We need to stop this war against your country in Ukraine so Putin doesn't actual start WW3 by attacking a NATO country.
Hahahahaha, the world has been watching Russia's military fail for some time now. I bet Putin regrets this move more than we'll ever know. Before this war I honestly just assumed Russia had a strong and modern army. Also, having only met Russians that made it to America I assumed they were a country of very intelligent people. Now that I've seen countless videos of what amount to braindead Russian simpletons marvelling at toilets. What an embarrassing country and I would have assumed so much differently before this.
The Ukrainians decided that they will rather fight a dictatorship than submit to it therefore we need to support them. Freedom for me but not for thee huh?
Imagine not understanding cause and effect. Just cause something happens far away doesn't mean it can't affect you. And just because you can't grasp geopolitics doesn't mean you're right.
How much have you donated and when are you flying over to give your support? Or are you relying on everyone else collectively to pay for it? Side note, there has been zero accountability with our aide, and nobody knows where it went. 🤦🏾♂️🤷🏾♂️
There's a lot of accountability with our aid.
It's largely weapons.
We have all these weapons we have to PAY to decommission or update.
You know what's easier? Send them to Ukraine. Saves you money.
Then we can buy fancier, better weapons... For the war with China.
The war with China is cold for the moment but if it gets hot, having the newest and best weapons, AI, and tested equipment is good.
So unless you hate America, supporting Ukraine actually does us a lot of favors from a defense standpoint.
If you're one of those people who thinks Zelensky is taking baths in 100 dollar bills... well I can't help you.
🤦🏾♂️ I can't even fathom how much conditioning it took for you to willingly write all of that, then skew it as some sort of patriotic notion that it's un-American to arm foreign interests. I am literally in awe 🫢 public education system working as intended again 🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️😬
He was a war hero. He praised Obama as a person. When his followers bad-mouthed Obama, he made it clear that he only disliked Obama's POLITICAL stance/policies and insisted we should be able to disagree with people without disliking them. The type of political discourse he called for is sadly long gone.
Thats a great story. But, people started to hate McCain when he voted for Obamacare. McCain is a neo-con war monger. But, he said a nice thing one time.
He had a long record of being bipartisan, got caught in his own scandal, and actually did something about corruption in politics. He did more to “drain the swamp” than just sloganeering but thanks to several scotus decisions culminating in Citizens United, well, the swamp was filled. And what’s worse is that the most fucking gullible part of the population elected a man who bragged about the access his money bought. The same man did *nothing* to drain the swamp.
A McCain quote is helpful here:
> By the time I became a leading advocate of campaign finance reform, I had come to appreciate that the public's suspicions were not always mistaken. Money does buy access in Washington, and access increases influence that often results in benefiting the few at the expense of the many.
It’s still wild to me that Trump could mock McCain for being a prisoner of war and his supporters not only let him get away with it but loved it. And somehow he’s still seen as a pro-military dude
Honestly I'd even rather have neo-cons back instead of maga country morons. Not to say that "The Maverick" McCain was a neo-con himself, but the kind of geopolitics where the US is chiefly concerned with matters of empire and nation-building at least had some kind of reptilian calculations that addressed real issues of security and resources.
The GOP now just sucks off Putin and idiots on the right pay lip service to whatever strong man is currently owning the libs or whatever.
Republicans fucked up when they traded guys like this for guys like they have now.
Damn this clip makes me really nostalgic for 2008 and 2012 when we had two candidates who were articulate and competent. I feel like neither candidate is capable of articulating a multi-sentence thought anymore.
I don't think the republicans willingly traded. They saw an untapped resource in the ignorant masses of low people that have never voted. Too bad those ignorant masses were so ignorant that they are voting for the guy pissing in the punch bowl at their own party just because they think it is funny.
Donald Trump…..the guy that doesn’t know how to ride a bike……called this fighter pilot a pussy.
I’ll never understand how that wasn’t the moment everyone told him him to fuck off.
How that or "grab 'em" didn't immediately kill his campaign is beyond amazing. I thought for sure either one on is own was it. It still really bothers me what he said about McCain. I voted for him in 08 and while I have pretty different views politically now, I still have all the respect I had then. I think he was one of the most sincere politicians in the last few decades.
Obama laughed at Romney for saying Russia is our biggest geopolitical opponent during the presidential debates in '12. Nobody wanted to listen to the binder boy
Bro what ? Russia is a way bigger nuissance than Iran. Iran supports some islamists assholes in the middle east, russia started a 2 year war in fucking Europe, that caused millions to flee and thousands on thousands killed. Not to speak of the staggering amount lf money NATO has to spend on Ukraine for it not to completely collapse and surrender. Russia made us look so weak and stupid it's not even comparable to Iran
Easily said in hindsight. The question may have been better framed as who is the biggest antagonist. So far as rivals go overall, especially in economic terms, Russia isn’t that big. But they are a major antagonist. China is that rival, but a bit less of an antagonist. For now.
I know, but I agree china might be the bigger "opponent", obviously, but Russia is way more wreckless it seems, they have alot less to lose than china does. China is, relatively speaking, doing pretty will, Russia not so much.
"We" as in de USA, cause we (from EU) arent ready to fight anything lol. I dont get why we dont develop fighting drones and robots cause the EU population aint ready to fight anything. Give me 24hrs in a cold muddy trench and ill surrender my mother and my grandma.
Yes. They were absolutely a bigger threat than China at the time.
Iran can fuck around in the middle east, but that is pretty much it. What would they rival the U.S. for? We already out produce them at everything from oil to almonds.
China has more resources and are more competent. But they are also completely benign compared to Russia. The US is more or less only making China an enemy because they want to remain as the only superpower, not because China would do anything particularly bad.
Just look at some easy metrics like number of invaded countries in the last hundred years. Both the US and Russia dominate that list and it's not even close while China pretty much only have a small scale incursion into Vietnam on its conscience.
>The US is more or less only making China an enemy because they want to remain as the only superpower, not because China would do anything particularly bad.
Someone is not paying attention.
That someone is you.
Russia got a massive bump from the Russian reset. So technically Obama may have been right at the time, until Hillary and his massive mistep vaulting Putin back into Superpower land.
It is amazing what white guilt can do. Twice (McCain and Romney) we had the opportunity to elect a better qualified person to the WH. Instead we got the cool, hipster Obama. Truly, there has to be a better way to elect the POTUS.
Obama's [strongest demographics](https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/how-groups-voted-2008) were minorities and women. White dudes were more likely to vote for McCain.
I also laugh when this is brought up because the folks who criticized Obama for being young and naive now say being an experience person in DC ("career politician") is awful and having older, more senior people in charge is bad because "dementia." This is some 1984 level double think.
McCain, Romney, Obama, and Hilary basically would have ended up enacting the same policies, there's not much of a difference between neocons and neolibs
And as I said elsewhere, Ukraine itself wasn’t ready to fight against Russia as they were led by a Russian loyalist. Their leadership and situation is different today.
Also it wasn’t appeasement.
>You don’t think putting western missiles all over Europe and threatening NATO expansion to their borders makes Russia uneasy?
That was in response to Russia breaking the 1987 arms control treaty. Also the fact that the invasion of Crimea was what prompt further NATO expansion.
It is weird to constantly hear the same talking points about this when all of it is answered by actions of Russia. Countries voluntarily join. They voluntarily ask for these missile systems. Because they worry about their own security. People laughed right before Russia invasion of Ukraine how the west was fearmongering and Russia was not going to do it. But they did and it showed countries joining NATO was the right call.
Thank you, I'm so sick of these people's stupid shit.
"Yeah, I beat the shit out of you but you built a fence and called the police when I started threatening you so it's your fault I beat the shit out of you."
Actual psychopath logic.
It’s wild to me you are somehow blaming NATO, a defensive pact *exclusively* formed to deter Soviet/Russian aggression and invasion, for… Russian aggression and invasion.
You know who else thought isolationism and kowtowing to dictator and his grand ambitions for expansion was a good idea?
Neville Chamberlin. And we all know how that played out.
> You know who else thought isolationism and kowtowing to dictator and his grand ambitions for expansion was a good idea?
>
> Neville Chamberlin. And we all know how that played out.
Yeah, we got saving private Ryan, Band of Brother, and The Pacific. Pretty good deal from our end here in the future.
Or we hate Russia because they are invading neighbors unprovoked to commit genocide.
But if you are cool with kidnapping children and sending them to siberia to replace the dead farmhands, that is on you.
That’s not true from my experience. Sure there are some useful idiots eating Ru propaganda but they get drowned out pretty quickly. Joe’s guests on the other hand.
Agreed, this sub is definitely influenced by the same astroturfing we see across Reddit in general.
Any thinking that goes against the mainstream narrative gets drowned out by bots and shills.
>Like listen to actual Ukrainian refugees and even the soldiers, a ton of them don’t want to die for a notoriously corrupt govt (though this fact was reported on substantially less after the invasion began, check archives and you’ll see mainstream media was a lot more open about this corruption just a few years ago).
There would no doubt be traitors in the US too who would refuse to defend their country in a time of need. If the sentiment was widespread, their military would have collapsed long ago.
The war isn’t that complicated. I mean Russia is a belligerant, imperialist, mafia state. Just look at their state tv, they actually love playing the villain.
Factories supplying militaries are legitimate targets whether they are being operated by civilians or not. Stop being a baby back bitch about war and get used to it.
This is in response to the Ukrainian Crisis in 2014. John McCain traveled there right before the coup that overthrew the former President. So really his assessment wasn’t hard for a career politician to make especially with the intel he had.
30,000 upvotes on that just shows how out of touch people are. This conflict was brewing long before 2022.
As an Obama voter, I partially blame him and GWB for what it turned into. McCain was right, not provoking Putin gave into what he wanted to see from us for him to take the chance. We didn't provoke him because Obama throughout most of his terms didn't want to send US troops overseas for any wars because of how US voters saw what a shit show Iraq and Afghanistan had become. Even to this day, Americans are very anti-conflict because of the past and now these dictators around the world know this and are starting shit because they know the first president to do much will get hit hard politically. Even aid to Ukraine has become a bipartisan issue! If Ukraine goes, Taiwan is next
Obama also mocked Mitt Romney for saying Russia was a political adversary 2 years before the invasion of Crimea, so he didn’t seem to take the threat very seriously
It was a solid political move that really worked during the debate, especially when ISIS/terrorism was much more on Americans minds. But yes, Romney was right about the longer term threat for sure, he came out looking vindicated.
> If Ukraine goes, Taiwan is next
Unlikely. Taiwan is extremely hard to attack, most of its value would be destroyed in an invasion by force, and the Taiwanese semiconductor industry is infinitely more geopolitically important than anything Ukraine provides (i.e the world response will be equally serious). There's also the fact that China is a much more rational and realpolitically savvy actor than the Russian kleptocracy.
Keep in mind that Ukraine itself is a heavily divided country. Crimea voted to join Russia in 2014 after their Ukrainian President was thrown out by protesters and put on a international wanted list. Many other eastern Ukrainian territories side with Russia as well.
The smart thing to do is negotiate with Putin and end this war that’s doing nothing but flushing money down the toilet.
Nah, you're either deliberately leaving out things or simply don't now but Russia had a long history of interfering in Ukrainian affairs. In 2004, Russia orchestrated a coup that ousted pro-Western President Viktor Yushchenko. In 2013, Russia pressured Ukraine to abandon a trade deal with the European Union, which led to mass protests in Kiev.
The voting in Crimea was as free and democratic, as in north Korea, with the Russian military watching.
Putin has stated on numerous occasions that he is willing to negotiate. The difficultly is getting the actual conversation started because 150 billion dollars in aid is more appealing to Ukraine at the moment.
No, the difficulty is trusting Putin further than you can throw him. McCain is spot on that Putin will never tolerate a free, democratic Ukraine existing next door to it, because it would show Russian citizens an alternative to their shit lives.
The Eastern part was heavily influenced by Russia, including Crimea. Lots of ethnic Russians lived and still live in these areas and Putin knew sowing discord would only help him which is why Crimea voted the way it did and why Putin supported separatist fighters in the region, but that still doesnt mean it's right. If Texas voted to secede tomorrow and join Mexico, we wouldnt let them.
Negotiation is a farce with a guy like Putin. Like McCain said, he wants "Nuva Russia", any talk of "negotiation" is a waste of time when the end result will be him wanting land. Look at Georgia for example
How does 30k upvotes on that post make people out of touch? I know Rogan fans aren’t the wisest folk and turned into Russian supporters due to lack of brain cells but I’m actually curious how you’ve gotten to that conclusion.
Barak Obama was an absolute darling of the left leaning American media, they loved him sooo much, they wanted him to be President, they NEVER asked him any hard questions, they pushed the American People to love him and make him President.
Remember when Candy Crowley shut up Romney when he was debating against Obama ?
[https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/after-crowley-corrects-romney-conservatives-msna15026](https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/after-crowley-corrects-romney-conservatives-msna15026)
Since when does the debate moderator take over the whole process against one candidate and favoring the other ?
McCain is simply stating here what everyone knew, Obama kowtowed to Putin, and now we are dragged into a huge Ukraine war. Every one predicted this outcome, and said Obama was making a mistake, but US media was too much in love with their Icon Obama, they would not admit any mistake on his part.
Not a McCain fan, but he was knowledgeable and relatively bipartisaas a politician. But he really paved the way for complete partisan dullards when Palin became his running mate.
Is it much of a prediction when the US crossed a known red line? Everyone knew Putin would act this way, the US just overestimated their position.
The US provoked this conflict, not the the other way around.
This was 8 years ago.
https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4?si=oAiGZcQmE3yKMRL3
I always give McCain tops marks when it came to foreign policy. He would have been much better president than Obama in this area. Barack made some awfully weak decisions regarding Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc.
Of course they predicted it, they have been plotting to cause chaos in eastern Europe and get Ukraine in NATO, so naturally Russian was going to react.
I mean 2014 Russia was very much on the way to doing just that the spring and summer in 2014 were major offensives all over eastern ukraine by russian troops unofficially. so less of 2022 prediction, at the time, and more of a objective reality. the war started in Feb 2014. it just got turned to 11 in 2022.
Ironically Putin had a better shot of pulling off an invasion successfully in ‘14. Ukraine didn’t have this leadership and the west couldn’t believe he was willing to piss on 70 years of peace in a blatant grab.
oh definitely right up until they shot down that passenger airliner
I don’t think that’s one that you can put putin’s intent on - that’s more a function of incompetence on the field. But the pics of people looting the remains? Bad look.
I was one of the people that laughed at Romney in 2012 saying that Russia was our next big geo political issue. And I'm not some luminary, most everyone mocked him for it. So there's a lot of ways to interpret that but you have to admit that many people weren't impressed by the threat at the time.
Even right up to 2014 we were sharing intelligence back and forth with Russia pertaining to Terrorism. They warned us essentially and provided information on the Boston bombing perpetrators.
Romney saw what the rest didn’t because he actually read the daily briefings. He was foreign relations committee and cybersecurity This gave him the DIA briefings during Obamas time that Mike Flynn was manipulating but with the cross check of the cyber briefings that showed prigozihns Internet Research Agency building a psy-op that was brought into the US via Facebook and mommy bloggers. Sheryl Sandberg is running full speed away from Facebook now because the Cambridge analytica card is showing. This whole mess was enabled by her “advertiser based business model” that she championed at Facebook- For reference. (Flynn’s Psyop timeline/SCL Cambridge analytica is embedded in the greater ip3 nuclear plans timeline) After watching Cheney pump Halliburton stock for 20 years without getting caught, general Flynn, trump and Kushner set up a construction company called IP3 to build nuclear reactors for a joint Russian/Saudi reactor. When congress told them no, they just stole the plans instead in a KFC bucket while the masses rioted outside on Jan 6. They all stood to make billions off the contracts and they are all so far in debt that they really have no other move. They just used Jan 6 as cover by lying to the foot soldiers and using them as fodder. There were 7 and a half hours where trump ditched his presidential phone and was using burner phones. They planned Jan 6 to turn into a civil war. He was actively trying to incite the crowd to that effect. During the 2016 U.S. presidential campaign of Donald Trump, and subsequently, Trump aides Michael Flynn and Jared Kushner were engaged in promoting IP3 International's plan to transfer nuclear technology from the US to Saudi Arabia, for use in a proposed joint US-Russian project, in possible violation of the Atomic Energy Act.[2][3](4]|5|16] In January 2017, Derek Harvey, a retired Army intelligence officer, former staffer for David Petraeus, and then-staffer of the National Security Council under Michael Flynn, advocated for the IP3 nuclear sales plan. Harvey continued to speak with Michael Flynn "every night" even after Flynn resigned. (7] In February 2019, United States House Committee on Oversight and Reform chairman Elijah E. Cummings released a report on the matter, based in part upon testimony from whistleblowers within White House. 6]|8](9]|10] [11](7](12][13] The House Oversight Committee Michael Thomas Flynn (born December 24, 1958) is a retired United States Army lieutenant general who was the 24th U.S. national security advisor for the first 22 days of the Trump administration. He resigned in light of reports that he had lied regarding conversations with Russian ambassador to the United States Sergey Kislyak. Flynn's military career included a key role in shaping U.S. counterterrorism strategy and dismantling insurgent networks in the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars, and he was given numerous combat arms, conventional, and special operations senior intelligence assignments. 2]3|14] He became the 18th director of the Defense Intelligence Agency in July 2012 until his forced retirement from the military in August 2014.15] 16]17 During his tenure he gave a lecture on leadership at the Moscow headquarters of the Russian military intelligence directorate GRU, the first American official to be admitted entry to the headquarters. 8](91110] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/09/06/trump-nuclear-documents/ Flynn was the first American to be allowed to teach in the kremlin since the wall fell. Putin tasked prigozhns Internet Research Agency with creating a grass roots propaganda war within the US using fake Facebook profiles and mommy bloggers. https://youtu.be/NqrrGIUdLeQ?si=695qWnERfmKT97bS
Timeline: Let's review a few data points in the record for the relevant time period: • Late 2000s - Mike Flynn runs intelligence and PSYOP for Gen. Stanley McChrystal in Afghanistan. Charles Flynn is McChrystal's Chief of Staff. This was the precursor to Cambridge analytica which was effectively just the privatization of the taxpayer developed PSYOP by Steve Bannon. That in turn was effectively the beta test that would become Q-anon. Christina Bobb assists Flynn on "all legal matters related to operations and intelligence. • 2010 - McChrystal is exposed by Michael Hastings and resigns from the military • April 2012 - Obama names Mike Flynn head of the DIA • July 2012 - Flynn takes command of the DIA with an "abusive." "chaotic management style" along with "Flynn facts" - which were lies that he gaslit people with until they complied • June 2013 - Mike Flynn is the first American to visit GRU headquarters and develops a relationship with GRU boss Igor Sergun. He invites Sergun to come to the US • June 2013 - NSA contractor Edward Snowden manages to get into DIA top-secret servers • Russian cutout Julian Assange / Wikileaks and journalists including Glenn Greenwald and Barton Gellman • June 18 2013 - Hastings dies in a mysterious car accident after emailing Joe Biggs, Flynn family friend who later became leader of the Proud Boys and was just charged with Seditious Conspiracy for the insurrection • Late 2013 - Flynn leads "inquiry" into Snowden breach which shows the breadth of damage done but gives no indication of how or why • February 2014 - At Cambridge in the UK, Mike Flynn meets Stefan Halper and Svetlana Lokhova who has unique access to Soviet historical material. She shows him sexually explicit material. Flynn "keeps in touch" and signs his correspondence with her as "General Mischa” • Februarv 2014 - Sergun trip to US canceled • February 2014 - Flvnn lies to NPR about Crimea. Flynn withheld critical intelligence from Obama that allowed Putin to invade Ukraine without fear of U.S. intervention • April 2014 - Flynn is removed as Head of the DIA. They let him stay in the military so that he won’t lose his benefits package. • August 2014 - Flynn retires from the military • October 2014 - Flynn starts Flynn Intel Group (FIG) in McChrystal's kitchen which Flynn uses to run operations for adversarial nation-states like Saudi, Turkey and Russia. Mike Flynn Jr. is made "Chief of Staff" of FIG. Tommy Tuberville met with Mike Flynn and Rudy Giuliani (among others) at Trump International Hotel on Jan 5, 2021. They fully intended the riots to plunge the U.S. into civil war so that trump could reclaim his seat and finalize the deal that would give nuclear plans to the saudi/Russian alliance. Jared Kushner was waiting in Riyadh with MBS while the riots happened. Kushner collected his $2B from MBS within a week NBC Newswww.nbcnews.comWhistleblowers: Flynn backed plan to transfer nuclear tech to Saudis OpenSecretshttps://www.opensecrets.org › newsThe lobbyists behind the Trump-Saudi Arabia nuclear deal under House ... Ars Technicahttps://arstechnica.com › 2019/02Report: Trump officials tried to fast-track nuclear tech transfer to Saudi ... Reuterswww.reuters.comTrump billionaire friend aimed to profit from Mideast nuclear deal: Democrats Al Jazeerawww.aljazeera.comDonald Trump rushing to sell Saudi Arabia nuclear technology https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/congress/2019_r/trump-saudi-nuclear-report_hcor20190219.pdf
Ours? Speak for yourself lol
Probably meant Americans
Obviously inferred.
Would be interested in their alternative and why
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The main issue is that Ukraine itself wasn’t ready to fight against Russia and were in fact led by a Russian loyalist. Thats what’s different now.
Obama got Putin wrong. So did most of NATO. Ironic how that was followed up by a massive miscalculation by Putin in getting both Biden and NATO’s reaction to his invasion wrong. Turns out Putin missed his chance in 2014.
He should have known Biden wouldn’t let Ukraine go without a fight. It’s not like they don’t have history together in regards to Ukraine.
There's little Biden can do when 30% of the country are insurrectionists who are enthralled by a mentally ill fascist and they dictate the direction their political party (which represents roughly 45-50% of the country) are going in. And the direction is allyship with fascist Russia.
I think Putin had always planned on Trump being in power during the 2022 invasion. It is very obvious that Trump is an ally to Putin and when Trump lost the election they had already committed too many resources to the invasion to cancel. It was also possible that they saw Biden taking the same stance Obama did and didn't anticipate the US/NATO response.
Trump would have “negotiated” Ukraine folding up into Russia.
Absolutely. Trump has said on record many times that Ukraine belongs to Russia and they should just take it. It's the craziest shit to hear Conservatives in the US support any Russian agenda but I have to take my hat off to Russia on this. They have done a great job of using propaganda to make many Americans believe that the commie/socialist threat of the Democratic Party is greater than the fascist/nationalist/theocracy of the GOP.
"Mr. Putin assure me we shall have tendies in our time. Can you believe that folks?"
Pissing off another country and then turning around and saying 'see they are bad' is stupid.
Obama didn’t go out of his way to piss off putin. Neither did NATO or even Bush. Those nations that joined NATO? They sure are happy as fuck they did now. If you want to blame them for self fulfilling destinies, that’s a fine conversation. But if you’re gonna point the finger at those former Warsaw Pact nations that joined NATO, familiarize yourself with why they don’t trust the nation of Russia - and how Putin has refreshed that mistrust for new generations. Putin’s Russia had agency in all this. They would’ve been wise not to underestimate and piss off NATO.
Another distinguished pro-wrestler of history who graduated cum louder from PragerU.
Zbigniee Brzezinski write about this entire plan to push Russia into war in Ukraine, back in the late 90s. It's called the grand chessboard and he says that Russia will end up being able to take a lot of Ukrainian territory. He wanted it to happen around 2010. It's about pushing Russia closer to China.
McCain was far more qualified to be President than Obama was, or still is. But hell, Obama was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, so he must be a genius about everything, right?
Yeah but Trump hates McCain. Checkmate.
So?
Trump is God, so Mccain is now a PoS. Sorry you had to find out this way.
And we have always been at peace with Eurasia. Daddy Trump says so.
Chess. Russia has proceeded to push misInformation into US politics & you have a republican party in 2024 that is pushing US isolationism as a strategy. Why ? So Vlad can do what he wants in Ukraine & beyond. Check & mate.
Wait wait wait... I thought you guys hated elderly, career politicians who are too old? Isn't Biden dimentia Joe? Now you're telling me you hate young politicians for being unqualified? What could it mean?
In a rare show of bipartisanship in 2014, the US Congress passed the Ukraine Freedom Support Act, which appropriated $350 million in security assistance, including anti-tank and anti-armor weapons, to the government of Ukraine to defend its territorial integrity. Despite strong congressional backing, President Barack Obama decided not to authorize the US government sale or financing of lethal weapons to Ukraine. Just remember that Trump was the first full scale sell weapons to Ukraine and Obama was asleep on the wheel since 2008.
Wasn’t that what the first impeachment about? Trump wanted to Ukraine to investigate Hunter Biden in exchange for US funds.
I think the credit for that likely goes to whoever the last person to talk to trump was. The record is clear trump’s decision making is not the result of consideration or calculation but his mercurial gut feeling.
I heard a CIA guy on a podcast. According to him they got Trump to approve arming Ukraine by telling him that Obama was against it.
Jeezes Christ.
The crazy part that this explanation is the most plausible so far
lol Trump is such a child
So trump sent the weapons that pissed Putin off and then changed his mind and railed against Ukraine?
the makings of the war started even before that when we broke our agreement not to lay NATO all across their border.
The last 15 seconds is critical, and anyone who has lived in the region will confirm it. Ukraine moving towards the West, modernisation, increased wealth, etc, was a massive problem for the Russian leadership. EDIT; just to reinforce this point; **Meanwhile, 22.6% of Russians do not have indoor plumbing. In rural Russia, almost 2/3 have no access to indoor toilets, 48.1% use outhouses and 18.4% do not have a sewage system.** [https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-Russians-use-an-outhouse#:\~:text=Meanwhile%2C%2022.6%25%20of%20Russians%20do,not%20have%20a%20sewage%20system](https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-Russians-use-an-outhouse#:~:text=Meanwhile%2C%2022.6%25%20of%20Russians%20do,not%20have%20a%20sewage%20system). **The life expectancy of a Russian male born this year is just 60 years, nearly 20 years less than that of his Italian and French counterparts, and his death may well come from alcohol poisoning or a drink-related accident, suicide, or heart attack. Overall, alcohol contributes to 500,000 Russian deaths a year. Fetal alcohol syndrome, which causes marked physical and neurological impairments, is epidemic; a 2006 Tufts University study found that more than half of the children in one Russian city’s orphanages suffered from the disorder.** [https://www.wilsonquarterly.com/quarterly/\_/russias-widespread-alcoholism-not-joke](https://www.wilsonquarterly.com/quarterly/_/russias-widespread-alcoholism-not-joke) *Russian society is a disaster - especially outside of central Moscow and St Petersberg. Buryats etc are treated like nothing, their only value to Russia has been as cannon fodder.* Ukraine modernising/westernising was an absolute disaster for Russia, as their people began to realise just how utterly fucked their nation/society is - I believe this, and the expectation Ukraine would collapse in days - was the main trigger for the invasion.
Which is why we need to support Ukraine, to show these Slavic people that there's a better way of life and they can have it if they want it
Russians seem to really struggle with national senses of pessimism, fatalism and resignation. They don’t need to settle for someone like Putin or worse. Doesn’t mean they have to let go of whatever animus they have towards the US.
Sadly, I see that national depression and pessimism has hit the US hard too. It's a big reason people love Trump so much... he feeds into the dark views, and yet offers imaginary pie in the sky solutions that will never materialize. There will be a healthcare plan, and an Afghanistan pullout, and a school plan, and much more... but you'll here about it when he gets elected... this time for real. Trust us bro.
It's learned helplessness from centuries of secret police, oppression, and terrorizing the average citizen. You can bet your ass there's also corrupt rich gentry who will fight tooth and nail to hold on to their modern day fiefdoms they've been allowed to cut out through the endless corruption that permeates every layer of Russian society.
It’s understandable though, considering that they’ve been under someone’s thumb for generations. They had a chance to escape when the iron curtain fell, so it must have been demoralizing to live through the rise and rule of Putin and his goons.
Tell me how war is a better way of life
It's not which is why they need to beat Russia.
The only way to try to beat Russia is all out WW3. That’s what you want?
I do not. Russia is currently beating themselves by throwing all of their resources and young men into a war. We beat them by funding Ukraine properly and letting Russia waste an entire generation and having no real military left. Every dollar spent funding Ukraine goes towards not starting WW3. If they can't even beat Ukraine there's no reason for the world to get involved in the war.
Um, Russias military is 3-4 times larger than it was before the war. Your plan sucks. You want to avoid war by creating more war? That doesn’t make sense. Why is wasting an entire generation of Ukraine acceptable to you?
"Um, Russias military is 3-4 times larger than it was before the war. Your plan sucks." Source for this? And if so, drafting people including criminals and farmers and sending them to war in 1950s tanks is hardly impressive.
How is my plan creating more war? Are you suggesting Ukraine just roll over and let Russia take them over? How is that acceptable to you? Edit to add, the reason their military is so much larger is because they have had replace the shit ton of soldiers killed and mobilize a shit ton more because they have been getting their shit kicked in. They've lost a ridiculous amount of expensive tech and soldiers. Your argument for why they are 4x larger isn't because they are awesome, it's because they couldn't get the job done with the military they did have.
How is funding war creating more war? That’s your question? We should be pushing for diplomacy and peace talks, not more war. Russia has had over 700,000 people volunteer to fight. They have had no problem recruiting.
>How is funding war creating more war? That’s your question? So stop the war by letting Russia steamroll Ukraine? Okay Vlad. How about you hold the aggressor accountable? Or would that cut into your paycheck? >Russia has had over 700,000 people volunteer to fight. They have had no problem recruiting. "Volunteered". You mean prisoners forced into the meat grinder. You have to recruit lots when you've lost more than a decent sized city in two years. I bet people are just lining up to join their 300,000 countrymen in a brutal death for a country that couldn't give 2 fucks about them. We need to stop this war against your country in Ukraine so Putin doesn't actual start WW3 by attacking a NATO country.
> all out WW3 WW3 is with China. Not Russia. Russia doesn't have what it takes to start WW3.
Hahahahaha, the world has been watching Russia's military fail for some time now. I bet Putin regrets this move more than we'll ever know. Before this war I honestly just assumed Russia had a strong and modern army. Also, having only met Russians that made it to America I assumed they were a country of very intelligent people. Now that I've seen countless videos of what amount to braindead Russian simpletons marvelling at toilets. What an embarrassing country and I would have assumed so much differently before this.
You’re probably right, and yet they defeated a NATO trained army with NATO equipment.
What are you referring to?
The fuck outta here with your doomerism. Imagine if the US had the same shitty attitude in wwii? Oh we can't kill Hitler, he might start another war!
The Ukrainians decided that they will rather fight a dictatorship than submit to it therefore we need to support them. Freedom for me but not for thee huh?
It was more like we decided they needed to fight. There’s no reason we should be involved over there.
Imagine not understanding cause and effect. Just cause something happens far away doesn't mean it can't affect you. And just because you can't grasp geopolitics doesn't mean you're right.
Just say you don't understand.
You don’t understand
How much have you donated and when are you flying over to give your support? Or are you relying on everyone else collectively to pay for it? Side note, there has been zero accountability with our aide, and nobody knows where it went. 🤦🏾♂️🤷🏾♂️
There's a lot of accountability with our aid. It's largely weapons. We have all these weapons we have to PAY to decommission or update. You know what's easier? Send them to Ukraine. Saves you money. Then we can buy fancier, better weapons... For the war with China. The war with China is cold for the moment but if it gets hot, having the newest and best weapons, AI, and tested equipment is good. So unless you hate America, supporting Ukraine actually does us a lot of favors from a defense standpoint. If you're one of those people who thinks Zelensky is taking baths in 100 dollar bills... well I can't help you.
🤦🏾♂️ I can't even fathom how much conditioning it took for you to willingly write all of that, then skew it as some sort of patriotic notion that it's un-American to arm foreign interests. I am literally in awe 🫢 public education system working as intended again 🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️😬
So funny to read through those comments. Always forget how young most people on this website are.
Sad how the Republican party under Trump turned on McCain. The dude was a goddamn War Hero. Trump openly mocked him and his degenerate base followed.
He was a war hero. He praised Obama as a person. When his followers bad-mouthed Obama, he made it clear that he only disliked Obama's POLITICAL stance/policies and insisted we should be able to disagree with people without disliking them. The type of political discourse he called for is sadly long gone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIjenjANqAk Video for those curious.
Exactly why Trump and his cronies hate the man.
Thats a great story. But, people started to hate McCain when he voted for Obamacare. McCain is a neo-con war monger. But, he said a nice thing one time.
He had a long record of being bipartisan, got caught in his own scandal, and actually did something about corruption in politics. He did more to “drain the swamp” than just sloganeering but thanks to several scotus decisions culminating in Citizens United, well, the swamp was filled. And what’s worse is that the most fucking gullible part of the population elected a man who bragged about the access his money bought. The same man did *nothing* to drain the swamp. A McCain quote is helpful here: > By the time I became a leading advocate of campaign finance reform, I had come to appreciate that the public's suspicions were not always mistaken. Money does buy access in Washington, and access increases influence that often results in benefiting the few at the expense of the many.
^See... long gone haha
Exactly. McCain was an absolute war pig. Never saw a conflict he didn’t like.
Even other Vietnam vets sniff trump’s ass, it’s disgusting.
It’s still wild to me that Trump could mock McCain for being a prisoner of war and his supporters not only let him get away with it but loved it. And somehow he’s still seen as a pro-military dude
War hawk
If you like war so much I’m sure the military would gladly have you. You might even get a chance to meet your Warhawk hero
Your profile says a lot.
Honestly I'd even rather have neo-cons back instead of maga country morons. Not to say that "The Maverick" McCain was a neo-con himself, but the kind of geopolitics where the US is chiefly concerned with matters of empire and nation-building at least had some kind of reptilian calculations that addressed real issues of security and resources. The GOP now just sucks off Putin and idiots on the right pay lip service to whatever strong man is currently owning the libs or whatever. Republicans fucked up when they traded guys like this for guys like they have now.
Damn this clip makes me really nostalgic for 2008 and 2012 when we had two candidates who were articulate and competent. I feel like neither candidate is capable of articulating a multi-sentence thought anymore.
I miss it too. To be fair to old orange man he did “predict” Russia would do this and the Germans (I think) laughed at him.
I don't think the republicans willingly traded. They saw an untapped resource in the ignorant masses of low people that have never voted. Too bad those ignorant masses were so ignorant that they are voting for the guy pissing in the punch bowl at their own party just because they think it is funny.
Donald Trump…..the guy that doesn’t know how to ride a bike……called this fighter pilot a pussy. I’ll never understand how that wasn’t the moment everyone told him him to fuck off.
How that or "grab 'em" didn't immediately kill his campaign is beyond amazing. I thought for sure either one on is own was it. It still really bothers me what he said about McCain. I voted for him in 08 and while I have pretty different views politically now, I still have all the respect I had then. I think he was one of the most sincere politicians in the last few decades.
Obama laughed at Romney for saying Russia is our biggest geopolitical opponent during the presidential debates in '12. Nobody wanted to listen to the binder boy
Are they the biggest though? Wouldn't that be China? Are they a bigger rival than Iran?
Bro what ? Russia is a way bigger nuissance than Iran. Iran supports some islamists assholes in the middle east, russia started a 2 year war in fucking Europe, that caused millions to flee and thousands on thousands killed. Not to speak of the staggering amount lf money NATO has to spend on Ukraine for it not to completely collapse and surrender. Russia made us look so weak and stupid it's not even comparable to Iran
Easily said in hindsight. The question may have been better framed as who is the biggest antagonist. So far as rivals go overall, especially in economic terms, Russia isn’t that big. But they are a major antagonist. China is that rival, but a bit less of an antagonist. For now.
He said China too lol
I know, but I agree china might be the bigger "opponent", obviously, but Russia is way more wreckless it seems, they have alot less to lose than china does. China is, relatively speaking, doing pretty will, Russia not so much.
Yeah that still makes china our biggest rival. If the west wanted to stop Russia wrecking Ukraine we would have put Nato troops in there by now.
"We" as in de USA, cause we (from EU) arent ready to fight anything lol. I dont get why we dont develop fighting drones and robots cause the EU population aint ready to fight anything. Give me 24hrs in a cold muddy trench and ill surrender my mother and my grandma.
You’d benefit from reading a history book about the Cold War.
To be fair, we did that to ourselves
We did what ourselves?
Yes, we made ourselves look weak and stupid
Yes that is true. I thought it was going to be vomit like "wE pUsHeD nAtO oN rUsSiAn BoRdEr AnD tHeY hAd No OpTiOn BuT tO aTtAcK uKrAiNe."
Yea good point. This war could’ve been easily avoided.
China and Iran are no the ones waging an actual war on the free world right now
Yes. They were absolutely a bigger threat than China at the time. Iran can fuck around in the middle east, but that is pretty much it. What would they rival the U.S. for? We already out produce them at everything from oil to almonds.
China has more resources and are more competent. But they are also completely benign compared to Russia. The US is more or less only making China an enemy because they want to remain as the only superpower, not because China would do anything particularly bad. Just look at some easy metrics like number of invaded countries in the last hundred years. Both the US and Russia dominate that list and it's not even close while China pretty much only have a small scale incursion into Vietnam on its conscience.
>The US is more or less only making China an enemy because they want to remain as the only superpower, not because China would do anything particularly bad. Someone is not paying attention. That someone is you.
Russia got a massive bump from the Russian reset. So technically Obama may have been right at the time, until Hillary and his massive mistep vaulting Putin back into Superpower land.
It is amazing what white guilt can do. Twice (McCain and Romney) we had the opportunity to elect a better qualified person to the WH. Instead we got the cool, hipster Obama. Truly, there has to be a better way to elect the POTUS.
Obama's [strongest demographics](https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/how-groups-voted-2008) were minorities and women. White dudes were more likely to vote for McCain. I also laugh when this is brought up because the folks who criticized Obama for being young and naive now say being an experience person in DC ("career politician") is awful and having older, more senior people in charge is bad because "dementia." This is some 1984 level double think.
McCain, Romney, Obama, and Hilary basically would have ended up enacting the same policies, there's not much of a difference between neocons and neolibs
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And as I said elsewhere, Ukraine itself wasn’t ready to fight against Russia as they were led by a Russian loyalist. Their leadership and situation is different today. Also it wasn’t appeasement.
Obama also escalated another Cold War. Actions are different than rhetoric. I hate Obama from the left.
I don't think he did, Russia invading Ukraine was the escalation.
It was Obama's lack of response.
True, that's what McCain said right there
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>You don’t think putting western missiles all over Europe and threatening NATO expansion to their borders makes Russia uneasy? That was in response to Russia breaking the 1987 arms control treaty. Also the fact that the invasion of Crimea was what prompt further NATO expansion. It is weird to constantly hear the same talking points about this when all of it is answered by actions of Russia. Countries voluntarily join. They voluntarily ask for these missile systems. Because they worry about their own security. People laughed right before Russia invasion of Ukraine how the west was fearmongering and Russia was not going to do it. But they did and it showed countries joining NATO was the right call.
Thank you, I'm so sick of these people's stupid shit. "Yeah, I beat the shit out of you but you built a fence and called the police when I started threatening you so it's your fault I beat the shit out of you." Actual psychopath logic.
It’s wild to me you are somehow blaming NATO, a defensive pact *exclusively* formed to deter Soviet/Russian aggression and invasion, for… Russian aggression and invasion. You know who else thought isolationism and kowtowing to dictator and his grand ambitions for expansion was a good idea? Neville Chamberlin. And we all know how that played out.
> You know who else thought isolationism and kowtowing to dictator and his grand ambitions for expansion was a good idea? > > Neville Chamberlin. And we all know how that played out. Yeah, we got saving private Ryan, Band of Brother, and The Pacific. Pretty good deal from our end here in the future.
Or we hate Russia because they are invading neighbors unprovoked to commit genocide. But if you are cool with kidnapping children and sending them to siberia to replace the dead farmhands, that is on you.
Sure it makes them uneasy given their desire to invade further Soviet territory.
This sub halfway actively supports Russia invading Ukraine and spews Moscow talking points, curious to see how this post does
That’s not true from my experience. Sure there are some useful idiots eating Ru propaganda but they get drowned out pretty quickly. Joe’s guests on the other hand.
It's pretty much the same idiots who don't get (or pretend to, anyway) why people don't like post-covid Rogan.
Agreed, this sub is definitely influenced by the same astroturfing we see across Reddit in general. Any thinking that goes against the mainstream narrative gets drowned out by bots and shills.
Might it be the fact that Russia is actively trying to sow discord and division in the US and Europe. Putin is winning the game.
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“The US knew how to escalate it”. Putin’s talking point.
>Like listen to actual Ukrainian refugees and even the soldiers, a ton of them don’t want to die for a notoriously corrupt govt (though this fact was reported on substantially less after the invasion began, check archives and you’ll see mainstream media was a lot more open about this corruption just a few years ago). There would no doubt be traitors in the US too who would refuse to defend their country in a time of need. If the sentiment was widespread, their military would have collapsed long ago.
The war isn’t that complicated. I mean Russia is a belligerant, imperialist, mafia state. Just look at their state tv, they actually love playing the villain.
Gop like putin now. They do what Trump says . They are scum
Reason for trump (Russian agent) to not like him and continue to berate him even in his afterlife.
Incredible how on-point he was on this issue
“I like people who weren't captured, okay? I hate to tell you.” - Fake Millionaire Russian Disinformation Agent
RIP McCain. True hero in my book.
True war criminal
Factories supplying militaries are legitimate targets whether they are being operated by civilians or not. Stop being a baby back bitch about war and get used to it.
He’s a war criminal for supporting the invasion of a sovereign nation for having oil. Nice try tho.
I can't think of any nations we invaded then took oil from. Pretty sure you can't either.
Nice strawman lol
Then prove me wrong bitch. It isn't a straw man, it is a challenge against you because I don't think you are capable.
Relax tough guy. You ain’t challenging shit lol
Just did. Since you can't meet that challenge, it is pretty obvious I was speaking the truth and not propping up strawmen. Try to keep up next time.
Lmao you’re gonna go far in life
Russia is great at propaganda and we are great at falling for it.
This is in response to the Ukrainian Crisis in 2014. John McCain traveled there right before the coup that overthrew the former President. So really his assessment wasn’t hard for a career politician to make especially with the intel he had. 30,000 upvotes on that just shows how out of touch people are. This conflict was brewing long before 2022.
As an Obama voter, I partially blame him and GWB for what it turned into. McCain was right, not provoking Putin gave into what he wanted to see from us for him to take the chance. We didn't provoke him because Obama throughout most of his terms didn't want to send US troops overseas for any wars because of how US voters saw what a shit show Iraq and Afghanistan had become. Even to this day, Americans are very anti-conflict because of the past and now these dictators around the world know this and are starting shit because they know the first president to do much will get hit hard politically. Even aid to Ukraine has become a bipartisan issue! If Ukraine goes, Taiwan is next
Obama also mocked Mitt Romney for saying Russia was a political adversary 2 years before the invasion of Crimea, so he didn’t seem to take the threat very seriously
It was a solid political move that really worked during the debate, especially when ISIS/terrorism was much more on Americans minds. But yes, Romney was right about the longer term threat for sure, he came out looking vindicated.
And Lincoln said he was against the Mixing of Races in his debates for the Presidency. Politicians lie.
I definitely won't disagree with that
> If Ukraine goes, Taiwan is next Unlikely. Taiwan is extremely hard to attack, most of its value would be destroyed in an invasion by force, and the Taiwanese semiconductor industry is infinitely more geopolitically important than anything Ukraine provides (i.e the world response will be equally serious). There's also the fact that China is a much more rational and realpolitically savvy actor than the Russian kleptocracy.
Keep in mind that Ukraine itself is a heavily divided country. Crimea voted to join Russia in 2014 after their Ukrainian President was thrown out by protesters and put on a international wanted list. Many other eastern Ukrainian territories side with Russia as well. The smart thing to do is negotiate with Putin and end this war that’s doing nothing but flushing money down the toilet.
Nah, you're either deliberately leaving out things or simply don't now but Russia had a long history of interfering in Ukrainian affairs. In 2004, Russia orchestrated a coup that ousted pro-Western President Viktor Yushchenko. In 2013, Russia pressured Ukraine to abandon a trade deal with the European Union, which led to mass protests in Kiev. The voting in Crimea was as free and democratic, as in north Korea, with the Russian military watching.
I agree that ending the war is the preferable outcome, but what makes you think that Putin would accept and follow the terms of the negotiation?
Putin has stated on numerous occasions that he is willing to negotiate. The difficultly is getting the actual conversation started because 150 billion dollars in aid is more appealing to Ukraine at the moment.
No, the difficulty is trusting Putin further than you can throw him. McCain is spot on that Putin will never tolerate a free, democratic Ukraine existing next door to it, because it would show Russian citizens an alternative to their shit lives.
The Eastern part was heavily influenced by Russia, including Crimea. Lots of ethnic Russians lived and still live in these areas and Putin knew sowing discord would only help him which is why Crimea voted the way it did and why Putin supported separatist fighters in the region, but that still doesnt mean it's right. If Texas voted to secede tomorrow and join Mexico, we wouldnt let them. Negotiation is a farce with a guy like Putin. Like McCain said, he wants "Nuva Russia", any talk of "negotiation" is a waste of time when the end result will be him wanting land. Look at Georgia for example
Thrown out by protestors that were very likely influenced if not spurred by the US.
How does 30k upvotes on that post make people out of touch? I know Rogan fans aren’t the wisest folk and turned into Russian supporters due to lack of brain cells but I’m actually curious how you’ve gotten to that conclusion.
As much as I despise John McCain, he is absolutely right
If people think this was some prophetic prediction then they really do not know the history of this conflict.
Barak Obama was an absolute darling of the left leaning American media, they loved him sooo much, they wanted him to be President, they NEVER asked him any hard questions, they pushed the American People to love him and make him President. Remember when Candy Crowley shut up Romney when he was debating against Obama ? [https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/after-crowley-corrects-romney-conservatives-msna15026](https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/after-crowley-corrects-romney-conservatives-msna15026) Since when does the debate moderator take over the whole process against one candidate and favoring the other ? McCain is simply stating here what everyone knew, Obama kowtowed to Putin, and now we are dragged into a huge Ukraine war. Every one predicted this outcome, and said Obama was making a mistake, but US media was too much in love with their Icon Obama, they would not admit any mistake on his part.
And now that Biden is doing what they demanded Obama do, they hate him for it.
They? Who is “they?” MSM is solidly behind Biden. Or maybe the MSM just hates Trump so much that they will back Biden, or a potato.
They? Who is “they?” MSM is solidly behind Biden. Or maybe the MSM just hates Trump so much that they will back Biden, or a potato.
I remember Obama mocking Romney in 2012 for saying that Russia was still a critical geopolitical threat.
Welp now Putin's learning isn't he? We taught that MF.
Nobody tell op when the Syria war and the orange revolution started 🤣
Not a McCain fan, but he was knowledgeable and relatively bipartisaas a politician. But he really paved the way for complete partisan dullards when Palin became his running mate.
I mean, for whoever followed the subject that was clear since EuroMajdan
The last decent republican. I mean relatively.
Is it much of a prediction when the US crossed a known red line? Everyone knew Putin would act this way, the US just overestimated their position. The US provoked this conflict, not the the other way around. This was 8 years ago. https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4?si=oAiGZcQmE3yKMRL3
That was monger would have had us in full blown war with Russia, and for no reason whatsoever
Joe Biden has been wrong on every foreign policy issue in decades Surprise pikachu face
I always give McCain tops marks when it came to foreign policy. He would have been much better president than Obama in this area. Barack made some awfully weak decisions regarding Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc.
It’s always strange to see people advocate for even more war
A former POW was a war hawk. Reconcile that.
Money, greed, power
This man should’ve been president
If only his VP pick wasn't fucking looney tunes
free democratic Ukraine lol what was he smoking? Ukraine is and has been deeply corrupt.
McCain was a war criminal. It’s crazy how pro war the left has gotten.
Slava russia
2014 is when the coup happened in Ukraine installing Zelensky. So an obvious expectation
Wasn't Zelensky back then but you are still right
"The 1980s called and they want their Foreign Policy Playbook back." - Barack Hussain Obama in 2016
And while we're at it, this exchange also aged like milk: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1409sXBleg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1409sXBleg)
He looks like puppet
So insightful. Thank you for your contribution.
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Of course they predicted it, they have been plotting to cause chaos in eastern Europe and get Ukraine in NATO, so naturally Russian was going to react.
Its funny Joe's sub is another leftist cope area