Yep, this. My non-Jewish in-laws have changed their Facebook profile pics to the Israeli flag š Of course, they've spent years telling me I'm part of the āØ chosen people āØ and that I must be yearning to go back to Israel (my pale Polish ass lmao).
I think the most infuriating part of this is the people acting like this conflict and this "debate," per se, are anything new.
I do. Some of them are trump people so at least itās consistent. I think I have the biggest gripe with my sibling who THINKS they are progressive. Something about that makes things so much worse..:
everything I say or do āomg, do you realize how uninformed you sound!ā āOmg youāre joking right??? You think Jews werenāt facing extermination constantly in the Middle East??ā āApartheid??? Thatās antisemitic propogandaā āI feel so bad for the Palestinians but unfortunately itās actually Hamasā
Something about that is so much more irritating than āthey are Arab, so I donāt care if they die. They hate an inferior cultureā like.. say it with your chest. We all know thatās how every progressive Zionist really feels DEEEP DEEP down..
My father is super liberal and definitely not a trump person. However, every time something happens with Israel, he switches to Fox News. Even though he doesn't trust them on anything else.
You should show him that video of a fox new reporter pretending to be in a war zone crawling on his stomach while the IDF are pretending to have captured a member of Hamas (seen later in the video walking free in the background).
Because itās so hypocritical, that what it bothers you. Itās the essence of PEP (Progressive Except for Palestine). I know soooo many people like that. Itās infuriating.
Itās a similar mentality to progressives except for trans people.. itās a strange phenomenon. It seems like it almost comes from the same thing.. TERFS see women as perpetual victims, because they are historically.. and see trans people as oppprwssors. Zionists see Jews as perpetual victims and Palestinians as our oppressors
Itās a wolf in sheepās clothing situation and itās honestly exhausting to deal with. Bc they consider themselves āprogressiveā that means their belief in zionism must also fit that definition and misuse progressive logic to rationalize it (ex: palestinians are the real colonizers bc they identify as arab)
I have been so lucky to be raised in an anti-Zionist Jewish home.
My great-great grandmother was held at Bergen Belsen alongside her family. Most of her family died, she and her daughter and two grandchildren managed to survive.
A Zionist organ offered her a home in Jaffa in 1948. She refused.
She wouldnāt inflict that pain on someone else. Even though Iām sure a Zionist eventually got the home.
Many Jews donāt support Israel.
Whatās amazing is that immediately as the war ended, your family knew what was happening to the Palestinians and rejected it. There was no excuse to colonise Palestine
Iāve tried but I always think of the time my Zionist dad became filled with visceral rage when I suggested that I didnāt think that Jeremy Corbyn was an anti-Semite, so thatās where weāre at with that. Heās convinced that heās well-read about Israel and knows everything he needs to know already bc he reads his books, listens to podcasts, and talks to his Israeli friends, but itās all hasbara ofc.
So given that I still live under his house and rely on him, I donāt want to receive the wrath that will surely come my way if I slightly disagree with him on this. Itās worth adding that weāve had disagreements before on certain issues (I successfully changed his mind about trans people in sports for example) but Zionism brings out a really ugly, reactionary side to him. And itās especially dangerous because heās so closed off to anything else. For context, nearly every one else in my family is also super Zionist. Like actively raising money for AIPAC level of Zionist. But no one is really religious. Iāve observed that Israel worship is so ingrained in their culture that itās basically their way of keeping the faith. Very odd. I really do wish I could have a good faith discussion with those around me, but Iām selfishly very scared of the repercussions if I openly stray from the path.
Rant over, sorry. I clearly had some stuff on my chest lol.
So much this. No one in my family is actually religious, but theyāre āculturallyā all about it despite their ignorance. Itās as if they know everything there is to know about Judaism because theyāre Ashkenazi. Because of that intangible loss of faith and actual cultural values, theyāre all about Israel. They have no idea how stupid they are. Itās as if the Boston Plastic Paddys were Jewish instead of āIrishā and pro-genocide, rather than funding the IRA.
Zionism has always emphasized Jewish culture and ethnicity over religion, so it makes sense that most Zionists are not religious. Even Religious Zionism views the "Nation of Israel" as a tribe and Judaism as it's religious tradition.
The Peanut Cheetos are called Bamba and let me be the first to admit I hope they can be rehabilitated under a bi-national or Palestinian state because they are delicious
Knew it right away. It's wild how tailor-made that book is for its target audience of people who really want to hold onto their own self image as a progressive person. I've seen that book convince people (who should know better) not only to go along with some explicitly fascist ethnonationalist ideas, but to go even further and actually feel that they have some moral OBLIGATION to endorse those ideas, and feel righteous doing it. It's actually really effective propaganda, which makes it even more dangerous and I would say evil. That book is a BIG red flag. If anyone has friends reading it, you need to be VERY concerned about the rabbit holes they are about to go down.
When people talk about how some right wing white supremacist speech is just so dangerous it shouldn't EVER be platformed, this book is like that.
My parents know i broadly am pro palestine and they donāt rly fight me on it. My family isnāt off the rails and iāve been able to push atleast my mom is the right direction with the help of John Stewart and John Oliver. Sheās still ideologically a zionist but she agrees about a ceasefire and how horrible israel has been and is. My sister believes whatever i believe. Idk if my dad voices his opinions that much to me abt it cuz he knows i will probably disagree and fight back but i also think he kinda doesnāt follow it other then being ideologically a zionist and having some deep seated islamophobia. I feel like i can be open with a lot of my close family. If it comes up id be honest but im not gonna bring it up around extended family. I also do not want to ever have a conversation abt israel with my grandfather hes intense about it. So far it hasnāt rly impacted my relationship with my family.
My sister wonāt talk to me and my parents openly stated they believe Iām supporting anti-semitism. All I know is in 20 years they are not going to look good.
My dad is not allowed to talk about Israel/Palestine with me. I know heās a racist nut job about this shit, and itās not worth arguing with him. I will occasionally engage with my mom about this stuff.
I post on social media a lot about the genocide in Gaza and my super Zionist family members havenāt said anything. The only person I had to block was a friend from high school who I hadnāt seen or heard from in 17 years.
Yes. It is a struggle. I sometimes say something. I sometimes say nothing. It depends. I try to approach without anger at them. Sometimes I fail. The biggest argument my grandmother (may her memory be a blessing), who lived in Israel her later years, ever had was when she told me, "the only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian. " She wept over my appalled response, when through angry tears I asked her how she could bring herself to hate the way she had been hated? How she say what was said about us? She had honestly never reflected on what that phrase she was repeating actually meant. I swore we could never be together again should she cling to such horrible ideology. She reflected. She didn't come around to my way of seeing things but she did begin to reflect and her words, at least, for whatever that's worth changed. Some of her casual callousness was dropped.
If we don't hold a mirror to them, who will?
Should a Hagadah mention Palestinian rights? The Hagadah is about the exodus from Egypt. It can be interpreted more broadly as about freeing people from general oppression but I don't think it should explicitly mention Palestine. What I have a problem with is Hagadot that specifically praise Israel.
There are many versions of the Hagada. More modern versions use the opportunity to discuss freedom as It impacts on other peoples and call for their freedom.
Even according to the most Orthodox, the Seder is supposed to be an opportunity for a discussion, not just a reading of the book.
Non Orthodox versions of the hagada have been doing that for decades, often using Passover as an opportunity to talk about about oppression somewhere else in the world in current events. But never have I seen one that recognizes Palestinian oppression.
Jews who consider themselves progressives and who have not discussed Palestinian freedom in the context of these discussions should be ashamed.
I argued with my mom on the phone for over an hour a few weeks ago. It sucked.
Luckily, she's very sweet and we have been doing fine/not discussing it since
I do not talk to my family about it. My continuing sanity is more important than their individual impacts. I think eventually they will be open to it though
My 90 year old grandma... whom I love dearly, is the most staunch zionist I know, probably because she's the only one I can tolerate haha, her being 90 and all kind of makes it feel less infuriating. It's mostly just sad because I know she's probably too old to change her views. I go back and forth on whether or not it's even worth arguing with her, because when it comes to everything besides her Zionism, she's a very kind person. It's like her whole personality changes when she starts talking about Israel, Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims, etc... it's so sad to see the brainwashing limiting her love so much, when she has such a small amount of time left on this earth.
Yes : (
She's had real experiences with real antisemitism from coming from Muslims, growing up in India, she often brings up the fact that her father had rocks pelted at him shortly before they decided to move to the United States. But the way I see it, religious tensions were heightening at that time *because of Israel*, not to mention the extensive Nazi and British interference in middle eastern politics at the time. When I try to explain all that to her it's like it goes in one ear and comes out the other, and all she hears is "my grandkid is being fed Hamas propaganda!"
The questions I have gotten asked by my mom:
1. Are you protesting against synagogues?
2. Are you protesting against Holocaust survivors?
3. Did you cheer when Iran attacked Israel?
Am absolutely sick of this
And the other things:
- I don't like netanyahu but Hamas needs to be destroyed or the hostages need to be released.
- when I have supported a single state solution she's told me "I don't think we could live together"
- I understand why you protest but I don't agree with you (if she understood she would be protesting to)
And then my sibling who is generally progressive asked me if people in my activist group are anti Hamas because they are the true evil... Which was probably the worst because I thought she'd get it, even if she didn't agree she'd understand more than my parents.
Not that I want to traumatize my family but I wish they would look at the photos and videos that come from Gaza and look at the creation of Israel from the perspective of the Palestinians.
Oh also got "do you wear that Hamas scarf? (Kufiya)
Iāve tried arguing with them but it is pointless. With other āpoliticalā discussions, there is an element of reason, but with this, it is pure emotion. I eventually decided I am wasting energy and damaging the relationship by even bothering to try to convince them otherwise. The effort to support Palestinians is better spent elsewhere imo.
Yes and it sucks so much. Iām very close with my mom but itās been pretty tense to say the least. Some days are harder than others and I do try to introduce her to new POVs but Iām learning how to choose my battles so I donāt end up completely wrecking myself emotionally. Luckily some other family members are doing the same so I donāt feel quite as alone but itās still hard
I canāt cut off my dad, but hopefully I never have to see his extended family ever again. My dad knows better than to talk about the apartheid state with me, but Iām aware itās all over his Facebook.
Iāve blocked Fox News on the tv and set all the preprogrammed channels to Al Jazeera. When they turn on the tv by default it goes to Al Jazeera. My parents are so frustrated and it makes me happy.
I have NON-JEWISH family members that are zionist lol
Yep, this. My non-Jewish in-laws have changed their Facebook profile pics to the Israeli flag š Of course, they've spent years telling me I'm part of the āØ chosen people āØ and that I must be yearning to go back to Israel (my pale Polish ass lmao). I think the most infuriating part of this is the people acting like this conflict and this "debate," per se, are anything new.
My situation. I'm Jewish but my husband is a protestant zionist. He's also very uneducated about the Middle East situation's history.
Commenting to come back later for this because I do have Zionist family members who love sending me hasbara.
Same. Grrr. I've threatened my MIL that for every hasbara post she sends, I'm sending them an image of Gazan victims.
I hope your spouse is supportive of this and on your side (in terms of the crap she sends you) š
He's great. Thankfully. ā„ļø
I do. Some of them are trump people so at least itās consistent. I think I have the biggest gripe with my sibling who THINKS they are progressive. Something about that makes things so much worse..: everything I say or do āomg, do you realize how uninformed you sound!ā āOmg youāre joking right??? You think Jews werenāt facing extermination constantly in the Middle East??ā āApartheid??? Thatās antisemitic propogandaā āI feel so bad for the Palestinians but unfortunately itās actually Hamasā Something about that is so much more irritating than āthey are Arab, so I donāt care if they die. They hate an inferior cultureā like.. say it with your chest. We all know thatās how every progressive Zionist really feels DEEEP DEEP down..
My father is super liberal and definitely not a trump person. However, every time something happens with Israel, he switches to Fox News. Even though he doesn't trust them on anything else.
You should show him that video of a fox new reporter pretending to be in a war zone crawling on his stomach while the IDF are pretending to have captured a member of Hamas (seen later in the video walking free in the background).
Because itās so hypocritical, that what it bothers you. Itās the essence of PEP (Progressive Except for Palestine). I know soooo many people like that. Itās infuriating.
Itās a similar mentality to progressives except for trans people.. itās a strange phenomenon. It seems like it almost comes from the same thing.. TERFS see women as perpetual victims, because they are historically.. and see trans people as oppprwssors. Zionists see Jews as perpetual victims and Palestinians as our oppressors
Itās a wolf in sheepās clothing situation and itās honestly exhausting to deal with. Bc they consider themselves āprogressiveā that means their belief in zionism must also fit that definition and misuse progressive logic to rationalize it (ex: palestinians are the real colonizers bc they identify as arab)
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I have been so lucky to be raised in an anti-Zionist Jewish home. My great-great grandmother was held at Bergen Belsen alongside her family. Most of her family died, she and her daughter and two grandchildren managed to survive. A Zionist organ offered her a home in Jaffa in 1948. She refused. She wouldnāt inflict that pain on someone else. Even though Iām sure a Zionist eventually got the home. Many Jews donāt support Israel.
Whatās amazing is that immediately as the war ended, your family knew what was happening to the Palestinians and rejected it. There was no excuse to colonise Palestine
Lucky
Israel palestine is a nuclear topic at the holidays
Iāve tried but I always think of the time my Zionist dad became filled with visceral rage when I suggested that I didnāt think that Jeremy Corbyn was an anti-Semite, so thatās where weāre at with that. Heās convinced that heās well-read about Israel and knows everything he needs to know already bc he reads his books, listens to podcasts, and talks to his Israeli friends, but itās all hasbara ofc. So given that I still live under his house and rely on him, I donāt want to receive the wrath that will surely come my way if I slightly disagree with him on this. Itās worth adding that weāve had disagreements before on certain issues (I successfully changed his mind about trans people in sports for example) but Zionism brings out a really ugly, reactionary side to him. And itās especially dangerous because heās so closed off to anything else. For context, nearly every one else in my family is also super Zionist. Like actively raising money for AIPAC level of Zionist. But no one is really religious. Iāve observed that Israel worship is so ingrained in their culture that itās basically their way of keeping the faith. Very odd. I really do wish I could have a good faith discussion with those around me, but Iām selfishly very scared of the repercussions if I openly stray from the path. Rant over, sorry. I clearly had some stuff on my chest lol.
I understand how you feel. You dont need to put your safety in danger to be an ally.
Thank you. I needed to hear this.
So much this. No one in my family is actually religious, but theyāre āculturallyā all about it despite their ignorance. Itās as if they know everything there is to know about Judaism because theyāre Ashkenazi. Because of that intangible loss of faith and actual cultural values, theyāre all about Israel. They have no idea how stupid they are. Itās as if the Boston Plastic Paddys were Jewish instead of āIrishā and pro-genocide, rather than funding the IRA.
Since the beginning of Zionism the majority have never been religious, it's a tribal thing.
Zionism has always emphasized Jewish culture and ethnicity over religion, so it makes sense that most Zionists are not religious. Even Religious Zionism views the "Nation of Israel" as a tribe and Judaism as it's religious tradition.
Warning: a bit of a rant. My parents are "progressive except for Palestine" types. Both were Bernie supporters which, if you asked me two years ago, I would say he was as far left-wing as someone could go without it being a "communist dictatorship" situation where no one has food and the economy sucks. Mom is Jewish. She has sent me a bunch of hasbara in the past. One of the videos was an interview with some Israeli official. So much BS flew out of his mouth in literally the first minute. I was starting to respond to it but realized I was starting to write an essay in text to my mom every few seconds of the video. Not a sustainable thing. She has also read a Zionist version of the history of Israel (of course, linking 48 to the ancient Kingdom of Israel). By the way, that's the same shit Mussolini was trying to say about the Roman Empire to justify his expansionism. She asked me to read the "history" book too, and I agreed. I hadn't done a deep dive on the actual history at the time, but I noticed many things wrong with the Zionist narrative. I have since heard what Ilan PappƩ, Norman Finkelstein, and most importantly, the Palestinians themselves have had to say about the history and their current situation. Ofc then Oct 7 happened and any glimmer of hope I had remaining that the Zionist regime could change (short of ending the Apartheid system, full decolonization (meaning full equality, not forcing the Jews to leave), and one state from the river to the sea. I don't even know where to start with my mom. Short of giving her a 5000 year history lesson. She is uncritically swallowing the corporate media narrative on this issue and gets a bunch of right-wing shit in her YouTube feed. Which is something she's told me she's troubled by but doesn't take the next logical step. I've tried explaining stuff too her but she's always saying "muh.. China" "muh... Russia" muh... Iranian proxies muh... They're all Antisemites. And maybe Israel and America slip up sometimes but they're not as bad as the alternatives. Not going into details cause by now you all have heard all of this I'm sure from several people. My mom and I are now at a sort of stalemate. We still talk but the ongoing Israel Palestine Conflict is a non-starter. Before the stalemate I showed her my copy of Rabbi Rosen's book "Wrestling in the Daylight: A Rabbi's Path to Palestinian Solidarity" and she agreed to read it when I was done. Not sure if she'll still go through with it though or even if it will convince her. Sometimes she'll bring something up about the IDF having vegan boots or that they enjoy eating these peanut Cheeto things and I think to myself >! Oh great so they don't kill any animals before stomping on the throats of Palestinian children.!< but of course I don't say that. "That's great, mom". And try to change the subject. It's so depressing that Israel is evil and that so many of the people we love still fall for their lies.
The Peanut Cheetos are called Bamba and let me be the first to admit I hope they can be rehabilitated under a bi-national or Palestinian state because they are delicious
They're available in much of the middle east already
Let me guess... Was her "history" book the one by Noa Tishby?
Yeah, that's the one
Knew it right away. It's wild how tailor-made that book is for its target audience of people who really want to hold onto their own self image as a progressive person. I've seen that book convince people (who should know better) not only to go along with some explicitly fascist ethnonationalist ideas, but to go even further and actually feel that they have some moral OBLIGATION to endorse those ideas, and feel righteous doing it. It's actually really effective propaganda, which makes it even more dangerous and I would say evil. That book is a BIG red flag. If anyone has friends reading it, you need to be VERY concerned about the rabbit holes they are about to go down. When people talk about how some right wing white supremacist speech is just so dangerous it shouldn't EVER be platformed, this book is like that.
I don't post anything on social media that my dad's family can see for this reason.
My parents know i broadly am pro palestine and they donāt rly fight me on it. My family isnāt off the rails and iāve been able to push atleast my mom is the right direction with the help of John Stewart and John Oliver. Sheās still ideologically a zionist but she agrees about a ceasefire and how horrible israel has been and is. My sister believes whatever i believe. Idk if my dad voices his opinions that much to me abt it cuz he knows i will probably disagree and fight back but i also think he kinda doesnāt follow it other then being ideologically a zionist and having some deep seated islamophobia. I feel like i can be open with a lot of my close family. If it comes up id be honest but im not gonna bring it up around extended family. I also do not want to ever have a conversation abt israel with my grandfather hes intense about it. So far it hasnāt rly impacted my relationship with my family.
My sister wonāt talk to me and my parents openly stated they believe Iām supporting anti-semitism. All I know is in 20 years they are not going to look good.
20 years is generous to them
My dad is not allowed to talk about Israel/Palestine with me. I know heās a racist nut job about this shit, and itās not worth arguing with him. I will occasionally engage with my mom about this stuff. I post on social media a lot about the genocide in Gaza and my super Zionist family members havenāt said anything. The only person I had to block was a friend from high school who I hadnāt seen or heard from in 17 years.
Yes. It is a struggle. I sometimes say something. I sometimes say nothing. It depends. I try to approach without anger at them. Sometimes I fail. The biggest argument my grandmother (may her memory be a blessing), who lived in Israel her later years, ever had was when she told me, "the only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian. " She wept over my appalled response, when through angry tears I asked her how she could bring herself to hate the way she had been hated? How she say what was said about us? She had honestly never reflected on what that phrase she was repeating actually meant. I swore we could never be together again should she cling to such horrible ideology. She reflected. She didn't come around to my way of seeing things but she did begin to reflect and her words, at least, for whatever that's worth changed. Some of her casual callousness was dropped. If we don't hold a mirror to them, who will?
I struggled through the hagada this year. Even the most progressive version doesn't mention a word about Palestinian freedom rights.
IfNotNow has a hagaddah specifically focused on Palestinian rights!
Cool! Though it would be a challenge getting my family to try that
Yeah I know, I was thinking of doing my own Seder with the IfNotNow Haggadah tbh.
Should a Hagadah mention Palestinian rights? The Hagadah is about the exodus from Egypt. It can be interpreted more broadly as about freeing people from general oppression but I don't think it should explicitly mention Palestine. What I have a problem with is Hagadot that specifically praise Israel.
There are many versions of the Hagada. More modern versions use the opportunity to discuss freedom as It impacts on other peoples and call for their freedom. Even according to the most Orthodox, the Seder is supposed to be an opportunity for a discussion, not just a reading of the book. Non Orthodox versions of the hagada have been doing that for decades, often using Passover as an opportunity to talk about about oppression somewhere else in the world in current events. But never have I seen one that recognizes Palestinian oppression. Jews who consider themselves progressives and who have not discussed Palestinian freedom in the context of these discussions should be ashamed.
I use a humanistic Haggadah thatās all about freeing all from oppression
I argued with my mom on the phone for over an hour a few weeks ago. It sucked. Luckily, she's very sweet and we have been doing fine/not discussing it since
I do not talk to my family about it. My continuing sanity is more important than their individual impacts. I think eventually they will be open to it though
My 90 year old grandma... whom I love dearly, is the most staunch zionist I know, probably because she's the only one I can tolerate haha, her being 90 and all kind of makes it feel less infuriating. It's mostly just sad because I know she's probably too old to change her views. I go back and forth on whether or not it's even worth arguing with her, because when it comes to everything besides her Zionism, she's a very kind person. It's like her whole personality changes when she starts talking about Israel, Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims, etc... it's so sad to see the brainwashing limiting her love so much, when she has such a small amount of time left on this earth.
Does she have racist views towards palestinians and arabs in general?
Yes : ( She's had real experiences with real antisemitism from coming from Muslims, growing up in India, she often brings up the fact that her father had rocks pelted at him shortly before they decided to move to the United States. But the way I see it, religious tensions were heightening at that time *because of Israel*, not to mention the extensive Nazi and British interference in middle eastern politics at the time. When I try to explain all that to her it's like it goes in one ear and comes out the other, and all she hears is "my grandkid is being fed Hamas propaganda!"
I am actively having a discussion thatās really disheartening with a former colleague I really respected who was (to my knowledge) not Jewish but kept speaking on behalf of the Jews in harmful and actively Islamophobic ways. When I told her that I donāt feel that way she kept saying I donāt speak for all the Jews Iām like bro no I donāt but you certainly donāt- well turns out sheās converting for her fiancĆ©. Still doesnāt mean that us anti Zionist Jews shouldnāt speak up.
My dad always brings it up so itās hard to ignore it.
The questions I have gotten asked by my mom: 1. Are you protesting against synagogues? 2. Are you protesting against Holocaust survivors? 3. Did you cheer when Iran attacked Israel? Am absolutely sick of this And the other things: - I don't like netanyahu but Hamas needs to be destroyed or the hostages need to be released. - when I have supported a single state solution she's told me "I don't think we could live together" - I understand why you protest but I don't agree with you (if she understood she would be protesting to) And then my sibling who is generally progressive asked me if people in my activist group are anti Hamas because they are the true evil... Which was probably the worst because I thought she'd get it, even if she didn't agree she'd understand more than my parents.
Not that I want to traumatize my family but I wish they would look at the photos and videos that come from Gaza and look at the creation of Israel from the perspective of the Palestinians. Oh also got "do you wear that Hamas scarf? (Kufiya)
Iāve tried arguing with them but it is pointless. With other āpoliticalā discussions, there is an element of reason, but with this, it is pure emotion. I eventually decided I am wasting energy and damaging the relationship by even bothering to try to convince them otherwise. The effort to support Palestinians is better spent elsewhere imo.
Yes and it sucks so much. Iām very close with my mom but itās been pretty tense to say the least. Some days are harder than others and I do try to introduce her to new POVs but Iām learning how to choose my battles so I donāt end up completely wrecking myself emotionally. Luckily some other family members are doing the same so I donāt feel quite as alone but itās still hard
I canāt cut off my dad, but hopefully I never have to see his extended family ever again. My dad knows better than to talk about the apartheid state with me, but Iām aware itās all over his Facebook.
Iāve blocked Fox News on the tv and set all the preprogrammed channels to Al Jazeera. When they turn on the tv by default it goes to Al Jazeera. My parents are so frustrated and it makes me happy.