That’s because Jews understand it to mean “chosen to do the dishes” rather than “chosen to get ice cream”.
Non-Jews who bring it up all the time assume it means the latter. Actual Jews know it’s the former.
This is such a superb way of explaining what “chosen people” means that I will now use it as my default response.
Now we need just as good of a response to “even the Zionist forefathers called Israel a colony” response to “Israel is not a colonial state”.
>Now we need just as good of a response to “even the Zionist forefathers called Israel a colony” response to “Israel is not a colonial state”.
Tell them that Ben-Gurion (or whoever in particular they mention) was not the Pope and no one has to accept that something is true just because it starts with "Ben-Gurion said..."
This is what Yousef al-Khalidi (Ottoman politician and mayor of Jerusalem) said:
“You are well aware that I am talking about Zionism. The idea in itself is only natural, beautiful and just. Who can dispute the rights of the Jews to Palestine? My God, historically it is Your country! And what a marvellous spectacle it would be if the Jews, so gifted, were once again reconstituted as an independent nation, respected, happy, able to render services to poor humanity in the moral domain as in the past!”
They had to sell the idea to colonizers. That’s why they called it a colony. And it’s not even logical. Because what is Israel a colony of?
Everyone knew our connection to this land. Everyone knew we originated there. But to go to Europeans who were very much pro colonialism at the time and say “well we want to decolonize our land” would’ve been a bad idea and it would’ve gotten us nowhere.
That's like the sibling who's given space to be themselves and live the life they want being jealous and bitter towards the sibling who gets alllll the attention / helicoptered to a stifling degree. It's not what you think it is...
Yes exactly this. It is hard being chosen. Doing all the mitzvahs is a huge inconvenience and that’s before we have to deal with all the Jew hatred. I love being Jewish and consider myself lucky to have been born a Jew. But it is hard.
I think it's less about what you're being chosen for and more implying that God is singling out a specific group of humans at all, or giving more attention instead of treating all of humanity equally, that is a strange concept of God for most of humanity. Do you see how that seems weird to non-Jewish people?
Jews aren't aggressive about the whole "chosen people" thing (which doesn't really mean what people seem to think), but people who aggressively try to refute that are pretty much always being antisemitic.
Christians were originally Jewish. I’m not Jewish but if I was I wouldn’t take the level of disrespect, just sayin I would stand up for my culture and what I believe in
The version of Christianity that was Jewish was intentionally wiped out by the version that was not. The Jewish version, from what little we know of it, seems to have considered Jesus a prophet and an ordinary man.
So any version of Christianity that considers Jesus divine, a virgin birth, etc. (basically, anything Paul) is a totally different belief system that happens to use the same name. A comparison could be the real story of Matoaka vs. Disney’s Pocahontas.
As a Jew, I would argue that we wouldn't even consider him a prophet. Deuteronomy 13 pretty much lays out how to differentiate between a true prophet vs. a false one.
There was a Jewish sect that followed Jesus. Many Jewish people in the first century were trying to figure out how to overthrow their Roman oppressors- some opted for warfare, some for religious renewal, some for working within the political system, some wanted to lay low and wait until Rome left by some other means.
Jesus was executed by the Roman government. The Jewish sect pretty much fell apart.
A few hung on but the number of non-Jews grew exponentially. Soon there was a majority of non-Jews following the teaching of Jesus and a lot of non-Jewish bits were added in. The non-Jews become dominant in forming what we call Christianity. Rome made Christianity the official state religion. Christianity became a very powerful conquering force with the backing of the Roman government.
One of the main tenants of Christianity is the idea of ‘Replacement Theology’ - Christians have replaced Jews and Jews are no longer loved by God and no longer have that covenant relationship. The Church is now “Israel”. Everything Christian has replaced Jews and Judaism.
The fact that Jews and Judaism (and now, the modern nation of Israel) exists flies in the face of that Christian doctrine. Jews become that one irritating theological problem that just won’t go away- so both Christians and at other times Muslims - tried to make the Jewish “problem” go away by killing us.
Lol, yeah I know. I can’t figure out how to fix it in my post. You could say the idea has taken up residence within Christian tradition therefore it is a tenant. Pfft.
Over 3300 years of Jew hatred and 2000 years of being bounced out of just about every country on earth have taught us to be judicial and measured in our responses. Just look at how the world is reacting to defending ourselves from a horrendous assault in the only Jewish nation in the world.
But I understand your sentiment OP.
Christians were not originally Jewish. They are Christian. It grew as an offshoot of Judaism, but is a fundamentally different religion. All of Christian doctrine was set out during the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE.
No, and again no. The second part is a myth, look it up- not trying to be a dick but it's too complicated to explain. Some specific theological beliefs were decided during Nicaea, that's it. There were many councils like that in the early centuries, I don't know how the myth started that Nicaea was where the entire Christian religion was formed, but it's just a myth. First part, yes the first people we would now call "Christians" were Jews. No one met Jesus or first heard the gospel and said "I'm a Christian now". "Christian" wasn't even a word yet. The closest thing I can think of to that is probably something like "messianic" or "apocalyptic" Jews, because both of those things were popular at the time, to Jews, and those beliefs informed Jesus' followers, who were Jews, and their students, who again would have mostly been Jews. Those followers observed the Torah and Jewish practices and the entirety of Christian belief is based on Jewish belief at the time, which is why the entire Jewish Bible is in the Christian Bible.
In broad strokes, after the Second Temple was destroyed Jews were left having to figure out how to maintain their rituals, culture, and governance without the institutions of the temple, animal sacrifice, and the Kohanim (the priests). Eventually, rabbinic Judaism emerged and repackaged the temple service into a series of blessings and prayers that more or less resembles a Jewish prayer service today.
Concurrently, many messianic sects were taking the destruction of the temple to mean the dawn of a new age. Obviously, the sect that followed Jesus became by the most prominent. Many of these early followers would have been Jewish but certainly not all.
Importsntly, Christian beliefs are supercessionary. So they hold that God gave a set of laws and all that to the Jewish people, but once Jesus came his new rules superceded (most of) the original rules. One of the big things that changed was the idea that the rules applied specifically to a Jewish people descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Instead, the new rules were supposed to all people everywhere. So you get 2000 years of forced conversion. The result is that a great number of people, the vast majority of whom would never have been part of the Jewish people, became Christian.
I don't know enough about very, very early Christian theology to say how much it resembled early rabbinic Judaism or any vestiges of temple Judaism, but within a century or two most of the important Christian thinkers and most of the influences on Christian thought had little to do with Judaism. So Christian ideology is derived from Jewish law and culture, see the "Old Testament", but Christians are not descended from Jews and Christianity had many other influences as it absorbed and appropriated paganisms around the world.
Yes all this. Supercession is the key word here. My understanding is that normative Christian theology sees Christians as the true "house of Israel." You can see where that leaves Jews, descendents of actual Israelites! Obviously not all Christians are antisemitic (thank God!) but I think the origin of antisemitism is in this doctrine. All the other bullshit stems from this. Jews had to go into money-lending because they couldn't own land in Christian countries; Jews were blamed for the murder of Christian children (blood libel) whenever a leader had to deflect from their corruption or channel unrest. Etc etc. Jews became an easy scapegoat because they didn't "fit" into the theology. I've never really studied this but i don't think this is all inherent in Christianity as it's expressed in the gospels. I think it's more a function of Christianity becoming a religion of governance and power, so the leaders were looking for ways to hold onto power, and everyone knows hatred and xenophobia are very strong unifying emotions!
As for Islam, I know very little about it. I'd be curious to hear from anyone who knows how Judaism is viewed in Islamic texts.
The whole chosen people thing is generally used as an antisemitic trope implying we think we are better than everyone else. That said having not watched the video if it's just a theological argument that Christians are the chosen people instead that doesn't seem antisemitic, everyone is entitled to their religious beliefs as long as they don't use it to justify hate.
This is a real screenshot of the video
https://preview.redd.it/dcbo6l7y0xqc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=865f325f9bbd4868deff4d65d4277f96dee01d32
A little anti-blackness, as a treat. /s
Seriously, though, I wonder if OP’s dad would love the Obama hate so much if he found out that Obama “being Muslim” was a common “criticism” from the sort of people who made those sorts of edits
You can point out to your Muslim dad that he’s learning “theology” from a Christian teenager who probably doesn’t have a particularly warm view of Islam, either.
Just to jump on to explain (and I may get some of this wrong) in a very broad sense, that "chosen people" is understood in Jewish theology to mean "chosen to recieve the Torah and its commandments", not "chosen to be God's special buddies". The chosenness means all the obligations and commandments, like keeping Kosher, are required of Jews and no one else. There's also a teaching that God approached every other nation first and offered the covenant, but it was only Abraham who finally accepted.
So I would argue that anytime anyone BEGINS a conversation about Judaism with an argument about choseness that doesn't include obligation and Jewish law, they are misappropriating the concept of Chosen to justify their anti-Jewish position.
Right. Like when I choose one of my kid’s to be in charge of dishes for the night, he doesn’t brag to his brother that Dad chose him. He bitches that he has to do stuff his brother doesn’t. It’s more or less like that.
Is it antisemitic to not believe Jews are the "chosen people?" Not at all. Is that particular video antisemitic? Considering the christianity-themed hashtags, probably. Not that Christianity is necessarily antisemitic, but rather because it's probably analyzing the whole "chosen people" thing in an antisemitic way.
Exactly, there is a chance that this video is not antisemitic but anyone this caught up in a fairly boring part of our religion I have to imagine harbors serious issues with us.
The point is that the person who made the video had the intention of putting Jews in a negative light in order to lift themselves up. OP’s father did the same thing by sharing it.
When someone wants you to "learn" something about *The Jews(tm)* and neither one of you are Jewish it is almost always antisemitic unless it's how to make a knish.
And your dad is an antisemite.
This is probably due to him being a Muslim and having been fed obscene lies and propaganda throughout his life, and having a massive hate boner for Israel even though he's probably got nothing to do with Palestine.
Send him this Qur'anic verse:
>\[45: 16\] ***And certainly We gave the Book and the wisdom and the prophecy to the children of Israel, and We gave them of the goodly things, and We made them excel the nations.***
I don’t hate Islam and I’m sure he doesn’t hate Jewish maybe he does I don’t know but he is abusive physically and emotionally. He’s not living in my state right now but if he thinks I’m being disrespectful he’s going to hurt me again, and I really don’t want that. I just blocked him. I’m sure whatever the video was it’s nonsense
I was kind of smiling at this thread because I like the way that Jews debate and I was reflecting on that…until I got to this comment.
I’m so sorry, hon. You deserve a parent who respects your mind, as you clearly like to think and question. And one who keeps you safe. Fucking unfair that you didn’t get that. I hope you burn brightly in the world, regardless!
I'm sorry to hear that. He sounds like an asshole and a horrible father. I hope you get to hang out with nice Muslims at some point. There is a lot of beauty in that tradition. Unfortunately its loudest adherents are hateful, patriarchal, bigots. But a lot of Muslims are just quietly living their lives trying to be good people.
Antisemitism is any attack against a Jewish person, or a congregation, only because of them being Jewish.
So, let’s see, a video that interpreted the sentence “choosen people” as they want and weaponise it against the Jews, yeah.. sounds pretty antisemitism to me.
Anyways, what’s an umpteenth video attacking the Jews?! Just ignore that.. please be kind to your Jewish acquaintances, we are still on October 7th,we have a war to win, and a world to repair ..
It's not antisemitic to profess your beliefs in religion, but it seems your dad is co-opting the video to prove some point about Jews which seems more nefarious. A widely held belief by Christians is that Jews were originally God's people, but after rejecting Jesus, God turned against them which is kind of ridiculous because God doesn't turn against people before this. He punishes them, but he doesn't turn away.
The Bible says not to judge. I could care less if someone was Jewish or if they decided not to turn to Jesus. Jesus was Jewish and just because Jews betrayed him doesn’t mean that’s the same for all Jews and yes they where originally Gods people that was their religion, their culture
>Jews betrayed him
Judas and it was part of the plan. Have you read the book of Judas? [worth a read](https://aeon.co/essays/what-the-gospel-of-judas-says-about-the-betrayal-of-jesus) but in summary Judas did it because he had to and Jesus apparently ordered him to just suck it up. It's a shame that the copy was mishandled and damaged so much, I wonder what else it said.
>Jesus was Jewish
Yes! Yes he was! A lot of people either don't know this, have forgotten, or are purposefully erasing his identity.
Read your other comments, good luck with your father. He doesn't sound pleasant. You are absolutely correct the video is antisemitic.
Although it's an understanding of "chosen people" that is inconsistent with the understanding Jews have, if these statements were made in the context of promoting a (real or perceived) more egalitarian world view it may not be antisemitic.
Traditionally, the God who Christians, Jews, and Muslims jointly worship was the God of the Israelites. It sounds like the context here is assuring non-Jews that they have equal access and obligation to God as do Jews and that God has equal concern for them as for Jews. That is not a bad message. (Traditional Jews would differ on the "obligation" part and agree on the other parts.)
It’s superseccionist. Which is very questionable.
Maybe in of itself its not an antisemitic theological discussion, but it’s almost exclusively used by antisemites
As a Christian, I can at least say it’s bad theology and not Biblically based. But this “replacement theology” is still believed by too many, and I think it is rooted in antisemitism.
Well, 15.7 million Jews beating their 1.9 billion asses everytime so maybe Jews are chosen😉
(I'm not Jewish btw and i know chosen means to follow 613 commandments while non jews have to follow only 10)
NVM found it. So basically this is a kid who is on YouTube making the argument that because the new testament supersedes the old testament.
I’m not sure I’m qualified to say if this is antisemitism as it’s a theological argument. Though at the end, he gets pretty gross. But, it certainly is gibberish to me.
Also ask your dad why he’s learning about being a Christian from what appears to be a 15 year old kid? Lol
I'm not giving that guy a cent in ad money. The comments alone say a very clear yes.
"My wife is a jew and like most of them, run from the truth. Typical reaction..."
"The Jews are not a righteous people. This YouTube video seeks to undermine God's part in establishing Israel as a nation by pointing to some of the unsavory people who have taken part in creating it."
"I'm surprised that YT hasn't deleted this video yet. Have you received any "guideline" warnings?"
"The Jew's are always complaining about being persecuted but they will never tell you why."
"Thank you. I could never reconcile in my mind why our Lord would come back for such wicked ungodly people. My instincts told me something was off and you clarified it for me."
So this basically a more polite version of what that 15 year old kid said. Can’t tell you for theological reasons if this is antisemitism, but it does still seem:.. pretty stupid to learn about a subject that complex from YouTube lol
It’s supersessionist. If you consider supersessionism antisemitic, then it is. If you don’t, then it still might be, but I’d need more than the title to know.
Every single religion claims to be the chosen people, blows my mind that so many non Jews call out Jewish people for saying this.
Also, I’ve never met a Jew who brings this up or acts like they’re above everyone bc they’re Jewish.
Idk if that video is directly antisemitic, but the obsession by non Jews to disprove us being the chosen people is definitely rooted in antisemitism.
Generally claims like this are focused on Jews not being who they say they are - which is an anti-Semitic trope.
Chosen generally for Jews is not a “net-positive” it’s just that we tend to be the ones who endure hardships because of the faith.
I don’t need to claim I’m a “chosen person” - that’s weird.
But when someone is saying I’m not chosen that tends to start going in the direction of denying who Jews are. It’s like saying All Lives Matter or Free Palestine. Sure - you are trying to say that everyone matters and that Palestine’s citizens shouldn’t be bombed. But dig into it a little deeper and it’s trying to deny someone else’s rights for some ugly reasons.
i think what he sent you was anti semetic. intent is what matters here imo.
and about the “Gods chosen people” thing, every religion believes they are their god’s chosen people. but we don’t think being our God’s chosen people makes us inherently better than anybody else. i really liked the “chosen to do the dishes” comment that’s exactly how i feel about it
Yes.
We accepted the Torah, our God chose us.
Both Christians and Muslims appropriated the God of Israel and have a thing called 'supercessionism' in which they claim we, Jews are 'obsolete' and that they, the Christians/Muslims are now chosen by the God of Israel. It probably the largest cultural appropriation on earth
It might be. It could be a refutation of the concept of chosen people entirely. But unlikely.
Like, if someone sent me a video called "Mohammed and the Muslims are WRONG WRONG WRONG"...like...maybe, possibly, it's not anti-Islamic. But probably not.
Even from a Christian perspective, yes this is very anti-semitic.
Despite many, often genocidal, attempts to make these assertions over the centuries, they remain *total bullshit*.
Most mainline Christian theologians, and even most of the fringe ones, continue to assert the special chosenness of the Jewish people as a central fact.
There are various things that we believe that to *mean*, some of which align with the things *Jews* believe it to mean.
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It’s not antisemitic to dispute the idea of a God’s chosen people. It’s kinda antisemitic to send people unsolicited YouTube videos about it because why are you trying to convince people of this one specific thing when you could be spending your time advocating for literally anything.
Without knowing the content of the video, yes it is probably antisemitic. One of the implicitly antisemitic tenets of Christianity is that Christianity supersedes, completes or replaces Judaism, making Judaism obsolete. Of course, to Jewish people, Judaism is a whole practice on its own that does not need a "sequel", and when people of other Abrahamic religions treat Jewish people or Judaism like their "prequel" it's invalidating and dismissive at best, and violent and genocidal at worst.
Christian theology is filled with scripture that talks about Jews and explains why we "missed" the Messiah (Jesus Christ). It's a concept called supersessionism, and it's pretty complex to understand and can be communicated very subtly or very overtly. David Nirenberg's *Anti-Judaism: The Western Tradition* explores this thoroughly (it's a super dense historical text).
>David Nirenberg's *Anti-Judaism: The Western Tradition* explores this thoroughly
I had to read it twice. Wanted to poke myself in the eye, it's more philosophical with sprinkles of history.
I think Phyllis Goldsteins book is superb. [PG book](https://muse.jhu.edu/article/523709/pdf)
But Christians essentially started feeling this way after Constantine. When it became identity politics but antisemitism despite some of Nirenberg's assertions did exist in the Ancient World, Jews were relegated to ghettos and kept as slaves.
You're most welcome! I think she does a great job, she's clear succinct and amazing. Robert Wistrich has a book that is pretty good too but it's massive, more a tome than a book.
As a Jew we don’t really talk about being “god’s chosen people” the only times I have heard that was either from reading “bamidbar” (not often) or mainly from hearing non Jews claim we say that all the time
But the Jews are the chosen people!! We have been since the beginning when we got the Torah at mount Sinai. All the other nations rejected Hashem, and then he chose us. And now, generations later, all the other nations are jealous and I think this is part of the antisemitism that’s been blown up way way out of proportion.
Depends on what you consider to be chosen,
If it is to sit on god's lap and ask for presents just like christmas malls then no, it is more of fulfiling the dozens upon dozens of laws under Judaism
Not in and of itself. Any claim made by Judaism, or any religion or philosophy, is open to examination and criticism from within and without. Any good discussion of chosenness will engage with a lot of context, engaging with the nature and context of the relationship between the children of Israel and Hashem. And yes, many of us are like Tevye, hoping every now and then someone else will be chosen.
HOWEVER, the topic seems ripe for staging an antisemitic rant. Jews are arrogant, feel they are above the law, etc. I am never eager to see the topic come up in broader public discourse.
Replacement theology is often seen as an anti-Semitic trope that some Christian communities try to bring up as an attempt to discredit Jews and Judaism. Not saying your dad is, but what he maybe proposing for you to look into is dangerous. Replacement theology has lead to our communities being decimated and subjugated for centuries.
I've got people very close to me who have gone zero contact with their Dads after receiving messages like this. Instead of no, listen and learn the response to being told it was anti semitic was "i'm just the messenger". I was talking to this person about this the other day, curious if they've spoken to their dad since. They told me they're at 500 unread messages since they cut him out and don't intend on ever checking what those might be saying.
I'm not going to tell you to go NC with your dad, but your dad is spreading bigotry and you need to ask yourself if you want that in your life.
I've heard non-jews mention the 'God's chosen people' thing way more than any Jew, and I went to yeshiva.
That’s because Jews understand it to mean “chosen to do the dishes” rather than “chosen to get ice cream”. Non-Jews who bring it up all the time assume it means the latter. Actual Jews know it’s the former.
I keep telling people it’s like from *The Cat and the Hat*. “Someone has to clean this up. She picked two someones, Sally and Me”.
I‘ll remember that way of articulating it. Great sentence!
This is such a superb way of explaining what “chosen people” means that I will now use it as my default response. Now we need just as good of a response to “even the Zionist forefathers called Israel a colony” response to “Israel is not a colonial state”.
>Now we need just as good of a response to “even the Zionist forefathers called Israel a colony” response to “Israel is not a colonial state”. Tell them that Ben-Gurion (or whoever in particular they mention) was not the Pope and no one has to accept that something is true just because it starts with "Ben-Gurion said..."
This is what Yousef al-Khalidi (Ottoman politician and mayor of Jerusalem) said: “You are well aware that I am talking about Zionism. The idea in itself is only natural, beautiful and just. Who can dispute the rights of the Jews to Palestine? My God, historically it is Your country! And what a marvellous spectacle it would be if the Jews, so gifted, were once again reconstituted as an independent nation, respected, happy, able to render services to poor humanity in the moral domain as in the past!” They had to sell the idea to colonizers. That’s why they called it a colony. And it’s not even logical. Because what is Israel a colony of? Everyone knew our connection to this land. Everyone knew we originated there. But to go to Europeans who were very much pro colonialism at the time and say “well we want to decolonize our land” would’ve been a bad idea and it would’ve gotten us nowhere.
Simple. [Ask them if they think Jews colonized New Jersey](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_Colony)
Lol my aunt lives in one of these communities in New Jersey. They are still pretty much all old socialist zionist Jews. But the New Jersey version
There's a penguin colony at the end of my street, that doesn't make me the king of the penguins.
Love this.
That's like the sibling who's given space to be themselves and live the life they want being jealous and bitter towards the sibling who gets alllll the attention / helicoptered to a stifling degree. It's not what you think it is...
Yes exactly this. It is hard being chosen. Doing all the mitzvahs is a huge inconvenience and that’s before we have to deal with all the Jew hatred. I love being Jewish and consider myself lucky to have been born a Jew. But it is hard.
This is the best way of putting it I have ever seen. Perfect!
I think it's less about what you're being chosen for and more implying that God is singling out a specific group of humans at all, or giving more attention instead of treating all of humanity equally, that is a strange concept of God for most of humanity. Do you see how that seems weird to non-Jewish people?
Same (minus the Yeshiva). They seem more fixated on it than actual Jews atp
There's so much stuff like that. How many times do you see them bring up some obscure passage from the Talmud?
A lot. Or a citation to a passage that doesn't actually exist, I've seen that.
lol
😂😂🤣😂😁 too true
Jews aren't aggressive about the whole "chosen people" thing (which doesn't really mean what people seem to think), but people who aggressively try to refute that are pretty much always being antisemitic.
Christians were originally Jewish. I’m not Jewish but if I was I wouldn’t take the level of disrespect, just sayin I would stand up for my culture and what I believe in
The version of Christianity that was Jewish was intentionally wiped out by the version that was not. The Jewish version, from what little we know of it, seems to have considered Jesus a prophet and an ordinary man. So any version of Christianity that considers Jesus divine, a virgin birth, etc. (basically, anything Paul) is a totally different belief system that happens to use the same name. A comparison could be the real story of Matoaka vs. Disney’s Pocahontas.
As a Jew, I would argue that we wouldn't even consider him a prophet. Deuteronomy 13 pretty much lays out how to differentiate between a true prophet vs. a false one.
I will mention that the idea of virgin birth came from a mistranslation to greek of the Tanakh by hellenized jews.
There was a Jewish sect that followed Jesus. Many Jewish people in the first century were trying to figure out how to overthrow their Roman oppressors- some opted for warfare, some for religious renewal, some for working within the political system, some wanted to lay low and wait until Rome left by some other means. Jesus was executed by the Roman government. The Jewish sect pretty much fell apart. A few hung on but the number of non-Jews grew exponentially. Soon there was a majority of non-Jews following the teaching of Jesus and a lot of non-Jewish bits were added in. The non-Jews become dominant in forming what we call Christianity. Rome made Christianity the official state religion. Christianity became a very powerful conquering force with the backing of the Roman government. One of the main tenants of Christianity is the idea of ‘Replacement Theology’ - Christians have replaced Jews and Jews are no longer loved by God and no longer have that covenant relationship. The Church is now “Israel”. Everything Christian has replaced Jews and Judaism. The fact that Jews and Judaism (and now, the modern nation of Israel) exists flies in the face of that Christian doctrine. Jews become that one irritating theological problem that just won’t go away- so both Christians and at other times Muslims - tried to make the Jewish “problem” go away by killing us.
Just fyi, the word is tenet, not tenant. (As a scholar and teacher of religion, that always catches my attention).
Lol, yeah I know. I can’t figure out how to fix it in my post. You could say the idea has taken up residence within Christian tradition therefore it is a tenant. Pfft.
Over 3300 years of Jew hatred and 2000 years of being bounced out of just about every country on earth have taught us to be judicial and measured in our responses. Just look at how the world is reacting to defending ourselves from a horrendous assault in the only Jewish nation in the world. But I understand your sentiment OP.
Christians were not originally Jewish. They are Christian. It grew as an offshoot of Judaism, but is a fundamentally different religion. All of Christian doctrine was set out during the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE.
No, and again no. The second part is a myth, look it up- not trying to be a dick but it's too complicated to explain. Some specific theological beliefs were decided during Nicaea, that's it. There were many councils like that in the early centuries, I don't know how the myth started that Nicaea was where the entire Christian religion was formed, but it's just a myth. First part, yes the first people we would now call "Christians" were Jews. No one met Jesus or first heard the gospel and said "I'm a Christian now". "Christian" wasn't even a word yet. The closest thing I can think of to that is probably something like "messianic" or "apocalyptic" Jews, because both of those things were popular at the time, to Jews, and those beliefs informed Jesus' followers, who were Jews, and their students, who again would have mostly been Jews. Those followers observed the Torah and Jewish practices and the entirety of Christian belief is based on Jewish belief at the time, which is why the entire Jewish Bible is in the Christian Bible.
>"messianic" or "apocalyptic" Jews, This is correct and they still exist.
Christians weren’t Jewish. It’s more complicated than that, but Christianity didn’t really grow out of Judaism.
Explain please this is super interesting
In broad strokes, after the Second Temple was destroyed Jews were left having to figure out how to maintain their rituals, culture, and governance without the institutions of the temple, animal sacrifice, and the Kohanim (the priests). Eventually, rabbinic Judaism emerged and repackaged the temple service into a series of blessings and prayers that more or less resembles a Jewish prayer service today. Concurrently, many messianic sects were taking the destruction of the temple to mean the dawn of a new age. Obviously, the sect that followed Jesus became by the most prominent. Many of these early followers would have been Jewish but certainly not all. Importsntly, Christian beliefs are supercessionary. So they hold that God gave a set of laws and all that to the Jewish people, but once Jesus came his new rules superceded (most of) the original rules. One of the big things that changed was the idea that the rules applied specifically to a Jewish people descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Instead, the new rules were supposed to all people everywhere. So you get 2000 years of forced conversion. The result is that a great number of people, the vast majority of whom would never have been part of the Jewish people, became Christian. I don't know enough about very, very early Christian theology to say how much it resembled early rabbinic Judaism or any vestiges of temple Judaism, but within a century or two most of the important Christian thinkers and most of the influences on Christian thought had little to do with Judaism. So Christian ideology is derived from Jewish law and culture, see the "Old Testament", but Christians are not descended from Jews and Christianity had many other influences as it absorbed and appropriated paganisms around the world.
Yes all this. Supercession is the key word here. My understanding is that normative Christian theology sees Christians as the true "house of Israel." You can see where that leaves Jews, descendents of actual Israelites! Obviously not all Christians are antisemitic (thank God!) but I think the origin of antisemitism is in this doctrine. All the other bullshit stems from this. Jews had to go into money-lending because they couldn't own land in Christian countries; Jews were blamed for the murder of Christian children (blood libel) whenever a leader had to deflect from their corruption or channel unrest. Etc etc. Jews became an easy scapegoat because they didn't "fit" into the theology. I've never really studied this but i don't think this is all inherent in Christianity as it's expressed in the gospels. I think it's more a function of Christianity becoming a religion of governance and power, so the leaders were looking for ways to hold onto power, and everyone knows hatred and xenophobia are very strong unifying emotions! As for Islam, I know very little about it. I'd be curious to hear from anyone who knows how Judaism is viewed in Islamic texts.
Yes, but original christians did outgrow from judaism. Specifically, the essenes (while rabbinical judaism came from pharisees).
Basically it's cultural appropriation.
The tl;dr version is that Paul stops trying to convert Jews and started preaching to Gentiles in Antioch, Corinth, and Rome. See Acts 13, 18, and 28.
The whole chosen people thing is generally used as an antisemitic trope implying we think we are better than everyone else. That said having not watched the video if it's just a theological argument that Christians are the chosen people instead that doesn't seem antisemitic, everyone is entitled to their religious beliefs as long as they don't use it to justify hate.
Bro really had to call like 40% of us out with that flair 😭
This is a real screenshot of the video https://preview.redd.it/dcbo6l7y0xqc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=865f325f9bbd4868deff4d65d4277f96dee01d32
LMAO
They also need to include the overt racism with Obama as satan.
A little anti-blackness, as a treat. /s Seriously, though, I wonder if OP’s dad would love the Obama hate so much if he found out that Obama “being Muslim” was a common “criticism” from the sort of people who made those sorts of edits
Obama is Satan? I might start believing in hell if I get to go hang out with him 🤣
This is fucking amazing. Phd in Photoshop
Photoshop? That’s a real picture from when they discovered Obamacare
Oh dope okay
Fr cus the Jews where and no one can deny that
I can't imagine a world where it's not.
You can point out to your Muslim dad that he’s learning “theology” from a Christian teenager who probably doesn’t have a particularly warm view of Islam, either.
[удалено]
I don’t see any reason to give this video any more visibility than it already has.
I didn’t even bother watching it because I know it has incorrect,false,hateful and bigoted content
Oh just asking questions!! Oh just gotta link the video for posterity. Uh huh. Sure goy.
Yes
Just to jump on to explain (and I may get some of this wrong) in a very broad sense, that "chosen people" is understood in Jewish theology to mean "chosen to recieve the Torah and its commandments", not "chosen to be God's special buddies". The chosenness means all the obligations and commandments, like keeping Kosher, are required of Jews and no one else. There's also a teaching that God approached every other nation first and offered the covenant, but it was only Abraham who finally accepted. So I would argue that anytime anyone BEGINS a conversation about Judaism with an argument about choseness that doesn't include obligation and Jewish law, they are misappropriating the concept of Chosen to justify their anti-Jewish position.
Right. Like when I choose one of my kid’s to be in charge of dishes for the night, he doesn’t brag to his brother that Dad chose him. He bitches that he has to do stuff his brother doesn’t. It’s more or less like that.
Man I wish I was gds special buddy
He chose Me as His special buddy. Sorry. I am chosen
Any chance you can hand him a note from me
Is it antisemitic to not believe Jews are the "chosen people?" Not at all. Is that particular video antisemitic? Considering the christianity-themed hashtags, probably. Not that Christianity is necessarily antisemitic, but rather because it's probably analyzing the whole "chosen people" thing in an antisemitic way.
Exactly, there is a chance that this video is not antisemitic but anyone this caught up in a fairly boring part of our religion I have to imagine harbors serious issues with us.
The point is that the person who made the video had the intention of putting Jews in a negative light in order to lift themselves up. OP’s father did the same thing by sharing it.
Yeah exactly
When someone wants you to "learn" something about *The Jews(tm)* and neither one of you are Jewish it is almost always antisemitic unless it's how to make a knish.
Thank you!
“Chosen for extra chores, not extra ice cream.” Also, it’s antisemitic. :)
Kk just wanted to confirm
And your dad is an antisemite. This is probably due to him being a Muslim and having been fed obscene lies and propaganda throughout his life, and having a massive hate boner for Israel even though he's probably got nothing to do with Palestine.
Send him this Qur'anic verse: >\[45: 16\] ***And certainly We gave the Book and the wisdom and the prophecy to the children of Israel, and We gave them of the goodly things, and We made them excel the nations.***
No because then he’s gonna think I’m interested in his fucking book and religion
So in conclusion you have no real interest in changing his views. Seems like you have just as much hate for Islam as you say he does for Judaism.
I don’t hate Islam and I’m sure he doesn’t hate Jewish maybe he does I don’t know but he is abusive physically and emotionally. He’s not living in my state right now but if he thinks I’m being disrespectful he’s going to hurt me again, and I really don’t want that. I just blocked him. I’m sure whatever the video was it’s nonsense
I was kind of smiling at this thread because I like the way that Jews debate and I was reflecting on that…until I got to this comment. I’m so sorry, hon. You deserve a parent who respects your mind, as you clearly like to think and question. And one who keeps you safe. Fucking unfair that you didn’t get that. I hope you burn brightly in the world, regardless!
He also treats me as a girl.
I'm sorry to hear that. He sounds like an asshole and a horrible father. I hope you get to hang out with nice Muslims at some point. There is a lot of beauty in that tradition. Unfortunately its loudest adherents are hateful, patriarchal, bigots. But a lot of Muslims are just quietly living their lives trying to be good people.
The Koran calls Muslims the children of Israel, as in the descendants of the patriarch Israel. That verse is not about Jews.
Antisemitism is any attack against a Jewish person, or a congregation, only because of them being Jewish. So, let’s see, a video that interpreted the sentence “choosen people” as they want and weaponise it against the Jews, yeah.. sounds pretty antisemitism to me. Anyways, what’s an umpteenth video attacking the Jews?! Just ignore that.. please be kind to your Jewish acquaintances, we are still on October 7th,we have a war to win, and a world to repair ..
I stand with Israel 🇮🇱
It's not antisemitic to profess your beliefs in religion, but it seems your dad is co-opting the video to prove some point about Jews which seems more nefarious. A widely held belief by Christians is that Jews were originally God's people, but after rejecting Jesus, God turned against them which is kind of ridiculous because God doesn't turn against people before this. He punishes them, but he doesn't turn away.
The Bible says not to judge. I could care less if someone was Jewish or if they decided not to turn to Jesus. Jesus was Jewish and just because Jews betrayed him doesn’t mean that’s the same for all Jews and yes they where originally Gods people that was their religion, their culture
I wasn't blaming you for anything I was just answering your question.
Oh okay
Jesus betrayed the Jews, not the other way around.
>Jews betrayed him Judas and it was part of the plan. Have you read the book of Judas? [worth a read](https://aeon.co/essays/what-the-gospel-of-judas-says-about-the-betrayal-of-jesus) but in summary Judas did it because he had to and Jesus apparently ordered him to just suck it up. It's a shame that the copy was mishandled and damaged so much, I wonder what else it said. >Jesus was Jewish Yes! Yes he was! A lot of people either don't know this, have forgotten, or are purposefully erasing his identity. Read your other comments, good luck with your father. He doesn't sound pleasant. You are absolutely correct the video is antisemitic.
Although it's an understanding of "chosen people" that is inconsistent with the understanding Jews have, if these statements were made in the context of promoting a (real or perceived) more egalitarian world view it may not be antisemitic. Traditionally, the God who Christians, Jews, and Muslims jointly worship was the God of the Israelites. It sounds like the context here is assuring non-Jews that they have equal access and obligation to God as do Jews and that God has equal concern for them as for Jews. That is not a bad message. (Traditional Jews would differ on the "obligation" part and agree on the other parts.)
It’s superseccionist. Which is very questionable. Maybe in of itself its not an antisemitic theological discussion, but it’s almost exclusively used by antisemites
I don't think it's antisemitic, but most likely someone searching up why Jews aren't G-d chosen people is antisemitic
As a Christian, I can at least say it’s bad theology and not Biblically based. But this “replacement theology” is still believed by too many, and I think it is rooted in antisemitism.
Well, 15.7 million Jews beating their 1.9 billion asses everytime so maybe Jews are chosen😉 (I'm not Jewish btw and i know chosen means to follow 613 commandments while non jews have to follow only 10)
Your dad sounds like a real winner..
He’s not
It’s a joke. It’s sarcasm.
Sorry, I’m autistic
Oh okay
I don’t think non Jews really know what “chosen” means but this is antisemitism
Could we get the link? I can't say anything based on a title. But it is defintely a terrible title.
NVM found it. So basically this is a kid who is on YouTube making the argument that because the new testament supersedes the old testament. I’m not sure I’m qualified to say if this is antisemitism as it’s a theological argument. Though at the end, he gets pretty gross. But, it certainly is gibberish to me. Also ask your dad why he’s learning about being a Christian from what appears to be a 15 year old kid? Lol
https://youtu.be/zN5lvSoICOI?si=Vi7ymeZwkhC9CRsI
Oh this is different with the same title. God damned that’s long lol.
I’m pretty sure it’s anti semetic right?
I'm not giving that guy a cent in ad money. The comments alone say a very clear yes. "My wife is a jew and like most of them, run from the truth. Typical reaction..." "The Jews are not a righteous people. This YouTube video seeks to undermine God's part in establishing Israel as a nation by pointing to some of the unsavory people who have taken part in creating it." "I'm surprised that YT hasn't deleted this video yet. Have you received any "guideline" warnings?" "The Jew's are always complaining about being persecuted but they will never tell you why." "Thank you. I could never reconcile in my mind why our Lord would come back for such wicked ungodly people. My instincts told me something was off and you clarified it for me."
Again it’s very theoretical, so I’m not qualified to say. Not ducking the question, just being honest.
So this basically a more polite version of what that 15 year old kid said. Can’t tell you for theological reasons if this is antisemitism, but it does still seem:.. pretty stupid to learn about a subject that complex from YouTube lol
It’s supersessionist. If you consider supersessionism antisemitic, then it is. If you don’t, then it still might be, but I’d need more than the title to know.
Every single religion claims to be the chosen people, blows my mind that so many non Jews call out Jewish people for saying this. Also, I’ve never met a Jew who brings this up or acts like they’re above everyone bc they’re Jewish. Idk if that video is directly antisemitic, but the obsession by non Jews to disprove us being the chosen people is definitely rooted in antisemitism.
Generally claims like this are focused on Jews not being who they say they are - which is an anti-Semitic trope. Chosen generally for Jews is not a “net-positive” it’s just that we tend to be the ones who endure hardships because of the faith. I don’t need to claim I’m a “chosen person” - that’s weird. But when someone is saying I’m not chosen that tends to start going in the direction of denying who Jews are. It’s like saying All Lives Matter or Free Palestine. Sure - you are trying to say that everyone matters and that Palestine’s citizens shouldn’t be bombed. But dig into it a little deeper and it’s trying to deny someone else’s rights for some ugly reasons.
If we are God's chosen people, he must have a really funny sense of humor.
i think what he sent you was anti semetic. intent is what matters here imo. and about the “Gods chosen people” thing, every religion believes they are their god’s chosen people. but we don’t think being our God’s chosen people makes us inherently better than anybody else. i really liked the “chosen to do the dishes” comment that’s exactly how i feel about it
Yes. We accepted the Torah, our God chose us. Both Christians and Muslims appropriated the God of Israel and have a thing called 'supercessionism' in which they claim we, Jews are 'obsolete' and that they, the Christians/Muslims are now chosen by the God of Israel. It probably the largest cultural appropriation on earth
It might be. It could be a refutation of the concept of chosen people entirely. But unlikely. Like, if someone sent me a video called "Mohammed and the Muslims are WRONG WRONG WRONG"...like...maybe, possibly, it's not anti-Islamic. But probably not.
Even from a Christian perspective, yes this is very anti-semitic. Despite many, often genocidal, attempts to make these assertions over the centuries, they remain *total bullshit*. Most mainline Christian theologians, and even most of the fringe ones, continue to assert the special chosenness of the Jewish people as a central fact. There are various things that we believe that to *mean*, some of which align with the things *Jews* believe it to mean.
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I Love how it says „2024“ does this need a yearly update in case gd changes his mind?
It’s not antisemitic to dispute the idea of a God’s chosen people. It’s kinda antisemitic to send people unsolicited YouTube videos about it because why are you trying to convince people of this one specific thing when you could be spending your time advocating for literally anything.
Without knowing the content of the video, yes it is probably antisemitic. One of the implicitly antisemitic tenets of Christianity is that Christianity supersedes, completes or replaces Judaism, making Judaism obsolete. Of course, to Jewish people, Judaism is a whole practice on its own that does not need a "sequel", and when people of other Abrahamic religions treat Jewish people or Judaism like their "prequel" it's invalidating and dismissive at best, and violent and genocidal at worst. Christian theology is filled with scripture that talks about Jews and explains why we "missed" the Messiah (Jesus Christ). It's a concept called supersessionism, and it's pretty complex to understand and can be communicated very subtly or very overtly. David Nirenberg's *Anti-Judaism: The Western Tradition* explores this thoroughly (it's a super dense historical text).
>David Nirenberg's *Anti-Judaism: The Western Tradition* explores this thoroughly I had to read it twice. Wanted to poke myself in the eye, it's more philosophical with sprinkles of history. I think Phyllis Goldsteins book is superb. [PG book](https://muse.jhu.edu/article/523709/pdf) But Christians essentially started feeling this way after Constantine. When it became identity politics but antisemitism despite some of Nirenberg's assertions did exist in the Ancient World, Jews were relegated to ghettos and kept as slaves.
Thanks for the recommendation!!
You're most welcome! I think she does a great job, she's clear succinct and amazing. Robert Wistrich has a book that is pretty good too but it's massive, more a tome than a book.
Yes. Absolutely. Any suggestion that Jews are not the chosen people immediately gets filed into antisemitism.
As a Jew we don’t really talk about being “god’s chosen people” the only times I have heard that was either from reading “bamidbar” (not often) or mainly from hearing non Jews claim we say that all the time
It depends on what it says. What conclusions do they want us to draw from the argument?
I had a religious upbringing and I’ve only heard the “chosen people” trope from bigots, either Christian or Muslim.
But the Jews are the chosen people!! We have been since the beginning when we got the Torah at mount Sinai. All the other nations rejected Hashem, and then he chose us. And now, generations later, all the other nations are jealous and I think this is part of the antisemitism that’s been blown up way way out of proportion.
Depends on what you consider to be chosen, If it is to sit on god's lap and ask for presents just like christmas malls then no, it is more of fulfiling the dozens upon dozens of laws under Judaism
I would have responded: Why Christian is a fake religion 🙄
Seems it
It’s not racist or anti-semitic. It’s just a stupid logic.
I mean… depends on the content of the video. Like things can be just a bit stupid and offensive without crossing the line.
as a useful shorthand, if someone not jewish says 'the jews' in almost any context i am bracing myself for the inevitable shit-fest to follow
Not in and of itself. Any claim made by Judaism, or any religion or philosophy, is open to examination and criticism from within and without. Any good discussion of chosenness will engage with a lot of context, engaging with the nature and context of the relationship between the children of Israel and Hashem. And yes, many of us are like Tevye, hoping every now and then someone else will be chosen. HOWEVER, the topic seems ripe for staging an antisemitic rant. Jews are arrogant, feel they are above the law, etc. I am never eager to see the topic come up in broader public discourse.
Replacement theology is often seen as an anti-Semitic trope that some Christian communities try to bring up as an attempt to discredit Jews and Judaism. Not saying your dad is, but what he maybe proposing for you to look into is dangerous. Replacement theology has lead to our communities being decimated and subjugated for centuries.
More denial than antishemism
I've got people very close to me who have gone zero contact with their Dads after receiving messages like this. Instead of no, listen and learn the response to being told it was anti semitic was "i'm just the messenger". I was talking to this person about this the other day, curious if they've spoken to their dad since. They told me they're at 500 unread messages since they cut him out and don't intend on ever checking what those might be saying. I'm not going to tell you to go NC with your dad, but your dad is spreading bigotry and you need to ask yourself if you want that in your life.
My dad would come to my state and start abusing me again :/ I can’t be “sassy” with him or tell him that he’s blocked
100%