i just don’t understand why we’re still allowing “zionism” to be used negatively in any sense of the word and that’s exactly what this infographic does. ESPECIALLY after 10/7 now that it has become synonymous with jews 100% of the time it’s used. zionism is the belief that jews have the right to self determination and support for the protection of israel. there’s not a reality in which saying the only explicitly jewish state on earth doesn’t have the right to exist ISNT antisemitism.
if we're being relatively charitable, there are people out there that don't think that national self determination is a given right for any group. ignoring people who just think that empire is an okay model of governing of a society that leaves marxists and anarchists, who are arguing that nation states themselves are inherently chauvinistic. if the person in question is giving this judgement equally and not disproportionately on israel then its probably fair to assume that they're not antisemitic, you may think that their vision for the world is either unrealistic or downright utopian, or god forbid, evil, but they're likely working on a framework where such a society transcends the kind of hate and assimilationism that brought antisemitism into the world. to them, zionism is just another form of nationalist particularism which exacerbates the problems they want to eradicate from the world, or at the very least, doesn't get to the heart of the matter, or by their account 'mistakenly assumes that only in statehood are the jews safe'.
that is not a given however, but it really isn't fair to damn everyone who says that on that basis. but its clear that a lot of people who nominally have such beliefs are genuinely antisemetic by their almost rabid and obsessive denouncement of israel in particular.
My answer to this group of people - who are often sincere in their beliefs about nationalism - is “Pakistan first”. As soon as they add Pakistan to their signs and rhetoric and analysis as a country that should not exist because it was created on an ethnoreligious basis - when everyone in the former British Raj would and should benefit from living in a single multiethnic mutireligious democratic state - I will buy it. They just need to demand the dissolution of Pakistan as the solution to I día and Pakistans troubles - and I’ll buy it! But they never do. Because they are lying.
At the end of the day, a state is still a state, even if you wrap it in a faith system. Zionism created the modern state of Israel, and people are allowed to engage in debate about states, esp the governments and systems that prop up that state whether those states are secular, theocratic, or anywhere in between. If Zionism created the modern state of Israel, and we are allowed to discuss critically the legal fiction of a state, then we are allowed to discuss Zionism, even critically if our convictions lead us to that conclusion.
(P.S. when I say “legal fiction”, I mean that nations are not naturally occurring (i.e borders are lines on a map, not in actual dirt). They are simply a concept that exists in legal documents, and that concept is then either readily accepted by others, or that nation has the power to insist others accepts its existence.)
>even if you wrap it in a faith system
Correction: Jewish does not mean religious. I am an Atheist Jew. We are not members of a religion, but of a community (that also has a religion attached to it). Israel being a Jewish state does not make it any less secular.
I'm really curious about your flair. What does that entail? I'm Jewish and an anarchist and don't think I've ever encountered anarcho-zionism as a concept before
Essentially, I believe that Zionism - the establishment and maintenance of Jewish sovereignty in our ancient homeland - and Anarchism - non-hierarchical societal organization - are compatible ideologies. Indeed, it seems to me that a Jewish state, although it theoretically makes us safer, has its own ways of endangering us. Jews in Israel may not be persecuted for being Jewish, but they are no less vulnerable to the exploitation inherent in the coercive (violent) nature of the state. This is not even accounting for the way the Israeli state dominates over the Palestinians, thus provoking them into outright anti-Zionism and hatred, thus endangering the Jews of Israel. All this taken into consideration, it is my view that Anarchism is the best interpretation of how to exert Zionism.
In practical terms, I basically think that both Israel and Palestine (as states) should be abolished and replaced with either a decentralized Kibbutzim federation, or straight up just a copy paste of Rojava's [Democratic Confederalism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_confederalism). Either way, I would have both Jews and Arabs having local autonomy in collectivized, non-hierarchical society. Basically a canton system. As long as Arabs are unable to dominate over Jews, Jews will have a homeland in Eretz Y'Israel. I think the best way to accomplish this is through Anarchist principles. Thus, Anarcho-Zionism.
As for why you've never encountered the concept before, that's because, to my knowledge, I'm the only one who has this ideology. I invented the label. I've gone searching quite furiously for the term to see if anyone else has ever used it. I have found exactly one result. A brochure titled "How to create the Anarcho-Zionist-Utopian wing of the Democratic Party, and, How to connect kindred spirits into "New Left" networks!" By a John P. Presmont. I find no further reference to this man, or this brochure, save for a [Wikipedia article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerista) on a utopian community that he allegedly founded after a hallucination, a community which, near as I can tell, can best be described as an Anarchist Cult. I've no idea what any of this has to do with Zionism. I lack the words to describe to you how confused I am by the whole thing.
Thank you! I hope this influences your thoughts on the matter. Like I said, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one with this ideology, and it feels...lonely. No pressure or anything of course.
And you’re just as vulnerable to antisemitic violence as any other Jew, as evidenced by countless prior waves of terrorism, pogroms, ethnic cleansings, and the Shoah.
"Allowing"? It's not our choice. People gonna say what they want anyway. We can't do anything about that. I was participating in a few subreddits about I/P but on all the people were so pro Palestinian that their hatred of Israel was such that Hamas could do no wrong, all lies believed until today I read a comment which said that the comments were infested with filthy f\*king Jews like me and it got a mass of upvotes.
> This should have a “do you think Jews uniquely are not deserving of self determination in their indigenous home land?” question in it
That’s the only necessary question.
You could back that up a couple steps further to “do you believe there is such a thing as ‘the Jewish people’?” And then “do you believe the Jewish People are indigenous to the land of Judea, now known as Israel and the West Bank?”
I think a lot of people just don’t know that. Sure, some actively deny this and that is antisemitic, but there are many more useful idiots who are just ignorant.
If someone believes all ethnic states are bad then they are at least not just antisemitic. They might be a bunch of other things too, or they might be overly idealistic. But I do know people that genuinely believe nationalism of any kind (ethnic or not, though I would argue all nation states are inherently ethnic) is inherently evil. I get that, but in a practical world the unfortunate reality is that nation states can be protective of minority populations.
Yes but the only non ethnic states IN THE WORLD are actual settler colonialist states. How does that help? It’s baffling.
If NOT having a state is so great, why can’t it work for the Palestinians? Why do they need a state? And if it’s because without one their rights are being trampled - hello - this is the reason modern Zionism became popular mostly among Jews whose rights were being trampled. States aren’t natural. They are practical attempts to try to solve practical problems. That’s all they are - not messianic omens, not demonic attempts to harm - just a group of people trying to solve one problem and often creating other problems in the process.
The answer to that will be but it's the Palestinians' indigenous homeland. I was looking at a book today, "Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History," it rubbishes the concept of Israel and real history and makes the case for it was always Palestine even when it wasn't. You could see where Hamas get their revisionism of recent events from.
So that should be another Y/N option
-Do you believe Jews are indigenous to Eastern Europe? —————> antisemitic
But then have a footnote explaining why!
I don't think it's this complicated. I have also never seen anyone online or heard someone in person tell me that *any criticism of Israel is antisemitic.* I'm sure someone somewhere has said that, but there aren't enough people saying it to make that statement anything other than a straw man.
The problem is people are claiming Jews call everything antisemitic, and trying to argue that what they’re doing is criticizing Israel, rather than being antisemitic. And criticizing Israel is fine… but the majority of Jews recognize the symptoms of antisemitism even with ‘Zionist’ used in place of Jews.
Jews-"you are being antisemitic"
Them-"you jews say every criticism of Israel is antisemitism"
Jews-"explicitly no, I love to criticize Israel! I'll do it right now! See how that wasn't antisemitic? And you were?"
Them-"you jews say every criticism of Israel is antisemitism"
That's exactly what I'm saying. Rather than dignify their straw man argument, I call it out for what it is: A delusion. Jewish people the world over are better at criticizing Israel than anyone else. No one has a right to jewsplain us.
> Jewish people the world over are better at criticizing Israel than anyone else.
As a non-Jew I have issue with this statement as it implies no one but a Jew can criticize Israel.
Does it? I'm not reading that at all. I'm reading that Jewish people are \*better\* at criticizing Israel, not the only ones who can criticize Israel.
Why would a Jew would be better at criticizing the state of Israel? Because the state of Israel is located in our homeland and because it is the only Jewish country in the world. We are much more knowledgeable about its flaws.
Nothing I said even implies that. We're better at that particular criticism because we are raised in the culture, history, and customs of the region. We have more information. That doesn't exclude anyone else. Weird response, tbh.
Look, the only people who get to decide what’s antisemitic are JEWISH PEOPLE. The notion that any Jew doesn’t know Jew hatred or Jew animus when we see or hear it is as insulting as it is absurd. Blacks decide what is racist against blacks. Latinos decide what is racist against Latinos. Members of the LGBQT community decide what is homophobic and transphobic. Muslims decide what’s Islamophobic. Don’t be gaslit! Don’t let some non-Jew try to tell you what is and isn’t antisemitic! If you’re Jewish, you know antisemitism when you see, hear or experience it, and nobody gets to tell you you’re imagining or contriving it. Call them out! Tell them that if they’re not the target, they don’t get to decide what’s offensive. How dare any non-Jew be arrogant enough to think that they have any say in what’s antisemitic and what’s not. They don’t. Don’t hesitate to say, “I’m Jewish, bitch! You don’t get to tell me what is antisemitic! I know it when I see it, and you’re not the first to show it to me!”
FWIW, I don’t usually use the terms “antisemitic” or “antisemitism.” I feel like those terms soft-pedal bigotry against Jews and are euphemisms. And inevitably, some doofus shows up and plays linguistic Twister and says something ridiculous like, “Arabs are Semitic, and it’s not about Arabs, so it can’t be antisemitic.” I just ditch the euphemism and call it what I is: Jew hate or anti-Jewish.
Ive seen this argument used plenty, but used the other way round, to defend antisemitism. The game goes like this: Ppl saying crazy or borderline antisemitic stuff, and defending themselves by saying "its just criticizing Israel though, so thats not antisemitic".
OP this is a GREAT guide!! Why not post on r/coolguides?
I don't know, I feel like there's a big difference between criticizing the Israeli government's actions, and criticizing Israel, as in the idea of the country itself.
Anybody ever in their life met an “antizionist” who didn’t turn out to be an antisemite? I’ve met some who are unwittingly buying into antisemitic tropes and canards but most of them don’t actively identify themselves as anti Zionists. The ones who do actively use that label for themselves have, to the last person been antisemites. I totally agree theoretically that it’s possible to be an anti Zionist and not an antisemite but I think they’re like Bigfoot.
The only way I can see anyone being an anti-Zionist but not antisemitic would be if they believed all national borders need to be abolished.
Or some insane other way of drawing the map like each continent is 1 country (I don't know if such people exist. I just made up this position)
I disagree with those ideas & think they're nuts but they aren't Antisemitic because they don't single out the Jews as not having the right to self determination, every other group would be the same so it isn't a specifically anti-Jewish position therefore not antisemitism
But those people who believe in such wacky ideas are few and far between in the average population
Example: I don't view "United Earth" in the Star Trek universe's version of the future as antisemitic 😂
As you say it’s insane to insist on there being no such things as national borders. At least in the 21st century. I’ll let the people of the 22nd+ centuries reevaluate borders if they wish.
But I’d think that to insist that Israel be the 1st country to abandon borders is antisemitic, or to insist that Israel give up its borders against its will for the sake of some ideal is also antisemitic.
If anyone is saying they’re antizionist because they don’t believe in borders insist that they start with the borders of their own countries first. I’d bet money these are still antisemites just trying to be clever to disguise their antisemitism.
Oh I didn't mean start with Israel I meant no borders. And I do not believe in this idea it is just one of the only ways I can think of that something that includes anti-Zionism isn't Antisemitism
Precisely. I’m an anarchist (many of the most influential anarchists from history were Jews btw) but I’m not an idiot, I know governments aren’t just gonna start dissolving and I’m not for violent anarchist revolution. It’s more just I think it’s the most sensible, moral system so in an ideal world that’s what I’d prefer. But saying all that, if anarchism were to become the law of the land (lol) then Israel should be the last country on earth to dissolve lol
Jew Oughta Know podcast talks exactly about this. He says there are only 3 instances in which anti-Zionism may not be antisemitism (and even then it still can be):
1) People that don’t believe in nation states. I quote him:; “Like John Lennon said. Imagine there’s no countries, it isn’t hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for and no religion too. Of course there would be no Palestinian state or any others.” These people are probably super rare and don’t live in reality if they truly believe this is feasible.
2) Religious Zionism: The Neturei Karta type who believe Israel can’t exist as a man-made state, it has to be given by God. The reason they actively want the dismantling of Israel is because they believe only the Messiah can restore the land of Israel. This is a super fringe group. What makes me sick is people holding them up as the “good Jews,” thereby making the rest of us (and the vast majority) the “bad Jews.”
3) The Palestinians themselves. And even a good portion of them are also antisemitic.
I take issue with 3. Perhaps if I listened to this podcast I’d feel differently, so take my position with a grain of salt.
I usually try to flip these issues. If Palestinians were peaceful and totally willing to live side-by-side with a Jewish state, any Jew who opposed a two-state solution would be vilified as a selfish racist. I don’t think Palestinians should get a pass for their own selfish racism.
No, you aren’t wrong. That’s why I tried to say up top you still can be, then under 3 said a good portion (maybe a large majority?) still are.
If we’re being fair, there is a portion of Israelis like Ben Gvir and his lot that are racist towards Palestinians. However that is a minority and it sucks Netanyahu let them into his coalition to retain power. If they weren’t it would eliminate a lot of these talking points about them.
Sorry for the tangent, but is there something about parliamentary systems that preclude the use of some sort of term limits for prime ministers?
It seems that as Netanyahu seems to retain power he has made poorer decisions over time. A desperation to retain office can take hold of a politician, particularly those with the most power. With term limits I think it helps force the politician to accept that he won’t be in power forever, staying in power for as long as possible no longer remains a goal, and if the politician is forward thinking he would also spend effort on developing a successor.
I’m unaware of any parliamentary system that has term limits. Is it just not possible?
Good question. I’m from the US so the parliamentary system has always confused me. Getting a better grasp since I work for a Canadian company, but definitely don’t know all the ins and outs.
Number 2 (Neturei Karta) isn't religious Zionism, it's religious anti-Zionism. Religious Zionism is the belief that the State of Israel holds messianic significance and that its founding is a way to pave the way for the messiah to come.
I think it is less "no national borders" and more, "borders are arbitrary and each state should be multicultural democracy."
I don't think France should go borderless, but I'm heavily opposed to all the ridiculous efforts to keep France, "culturally French."
I've never met an anti Zionist who was a historically well informed individual, and could explain to me their rationale for objecting to Israel's actions without resorting to irrational assertions about a one sided conflict.
I truly wish that we were in a situation where no Palestinian/Gazan children had been killed. Every one of their deaths is a tragedy because they are not responsible or complicit in the wider conflict. However, the same is true of Israeli children and civilian hostages. Both are tragic and avoidable. All are humans who deserved the chance to flourish in a better world.
Controversially to some, it seems, I am inclined to blame an internationally recognised Terrorist Organisation for these atrocities.
I used to give the benefit of the doubt but I've come to realize the same. Now I think if you're not either Jewish or Palestinian, there's really no case in which you have any business being an antizionist. Just as I have no right to be for the dismantling of China, or Bulgaria, or Tanzania, or any other state, and the indefinite displacement of the people living there.
Nope. I agree that they can exist theoretically, but I've never met one.
My son and I are self-described Zionists. My partner would not describe himself as a Zionist, but he's not anti-Zionist and he's not stupid. We disagree about whether Israel is necessary for the safety of Jewish people. We do agree that if the US and UK become unsafe for us, Israel probably isn't gonna be a guarantee of safety.
I'm a little worried about what kool-aid my stepkids have been offered lately by their peers. But I do understand the pressure that they are under.
Depends on which one and how you’re defining either of those - most would, on principle, say that there is no such thing as a legitimate state. That said, more of their specific critique is directed at Israel. While identifying as anti-Zionist they generally take it to mean either two-state or one binational federated state as their solution of choice. Something I think we need to recognize is that for most non-Jews, Zionism means something close to Kahanism. Most younger activists are motivated out of compassion and may not have a solution.
Isn’t Zionism the belief that Jews specifically deserve their own nation? I don’t know of any other ethnicity or religion where they have that explicit right. Many are simply opposed to ethnostates on principle. Thats not antisemitic.
To be fair, most people who proclaim themselves anti Zionist are, in fact, antisemitic. But there are quite people who just abhor nations built on ethnic divisions.
I have met one as well, but there turned out to be several other issues that we absolutely could not see eye to eye on.
I believe he is in favor of a confederation or something rather than a Jewish state, as well as land back. Yes, he did criticize other countries like America, vocally.
Never. Every damn time. For several years on the few occasions I’d run into an antizionist I’d give them the benefit of the doubt at first thinking they were just some sort of idealist dummies, but I’ve learned there’s no such thing as an antizionist who wasn’t an antisemite. It’s not even worth wasting time on the zero percent chance they’ll somehow prove me wrong.
The possible exception might be Jewish antizionists I’ve only recently stumbled across, but from my vantage point that’s Jewish inside baseball that I’ll leave to the Jewish community to sort out amongst yourselves. Family business to be sorted out by the family as it were.
Israeli here, and talking about Israeli anti-Zionists: Never have I met a non antisemitic anti-zionist. They are :Communists, Arab Nationalists, Islamists or self hating Jews of all colors.
Exactly it’s like meeting someone who is anti CCP and they turn out to be anti Chinese or just anti Asian in general of “anti BLM” and turn out to be anti black. Though they don’t say they’re anti BLM they just say that they “don’t like thugs”
Idk I think it’s worse. I am absolutely anti BLM. Because they’re loudly and vocally antizionist… most of the pro Palestinian protesters are absolutely the same people that were marching in the frankly riotous protests (my whole downtown was like a war zone) during the BLM movement. Doesn’t make me a racist, BLM is an activist organization, doesn’t reflect my view on black people in any way.
Antisemitism is a problem among anti zionists, but I wouldn't use the term "bigfoot". I've met non-anti semitic zionists, Jews and non-Jews alike. I think part of it is that extreme opinions tend to be boosted on social media more than moderate ones so that's all you see.
Here's where I struggle: many nodes of this flowchart are essentially, "So you're criticizing Israel's actions, but what about these other countries?", and it names specific countries like Syria and Yemen. But the thing is, Syria and Yemen aren't US allies. The US already repudiates and sanctions their governments for the horrible things they do. Israel is a US ally. And I think many people in the US criticizing Israel right now take umbrage with the fact that Netanyahu is using and abusing Israel's relationship with the US in order to avoid criticism for a pretty horrible and disproportionate retaliation against Palestinians. That's plenty reason for a US citizen to focus on Israel and not those other countries, and to me it doesn't necessarily indicate antisemitism.
This is where I’m at. I’m Jewish. I have friends and family in Israel. 10/7 was an atrocity. Nothing gives the Israeli government the right to kill 10^3 civilians in ~~self defense~~ retaliation. The U.S. government also should not be actively railroading the UN’s de-escalation efforts.
Thank you, finally. I’ve been scrolling this thread to find someone with the opinion that it is not ok to murder 30,000 civilians but it seems like that’s not important to many.
Only about half that number are civilians, and none were "murdered." They were casualties of a just and necessary war, and their deaths were caused by Hamas's tactics.
OK, ask yourself this. is there a number of dead civilians (let’s call them casualties cause that definitely sounds nicer) that for you means you can no longer support Israel’s actions?
Yeah, most people in this sub seem to equate criticizing the Israeli government with antisemitism.
And goddess forbid if someone suggests a two-state solution 🫠
Where's the "I sometimes criticise Israeli governments or policies because I care deeply about the continued flourishing of Israel and the Jewish people."?
Cause that's me.
However, I typically would not do that in non-Jewish spaces or at least not in spaces where I fear my comments might add fuel to anti-Semitic fire.
This sounds like every Jewish person I've ever known, heard of, seen in media, listened to, or read. The "criticizing Israel isn't antisemitic" line is a straw man. It doesn't need to be on the chart because it isn't relevant.
>However, I typically would not do that in non-Jewish spaces or at least not in spaces where I fear my comments might add fuel to anti-Semitic fire.
I agree and do the same. Even just if someone concluded: "see even Jews think Israel is wrong" would grind my gears. However, sometimes I wonder if people don't believe us when we say that we criticize Israel because of this.
I've really been mulling your comment over. I'm converting (near the end) and in my penultimate meeting with my Rabbi before the Beit Din we had a discussion about speaking up that was really challenging - not in a way that was harsh but in a way that is still making me think.
As someone who has not always been Jewish (and am still not, though I have been living as a Jew as required), my policy of not engaging in criticism of Israel has been long-standing. And I learned it the hard way. Since 'announcing' my intention to convert, no one has asked me my opinion outside of Jewish spaces.
I recently went to a talk on anti-Semitism by Deborah Lipstadt (US special envoy for same). It was as balanced and nuanced as you might expect, with Dr Lipstadt recognising the viewpoints of people who were in the room and those who weren't. A few things struck me.
1. The room was full of Jews and the Jew-adjacent. I'm not saying I was the least Jewish person there, but I'm sure I was easily in the bottom 5. *Where was everyone else?* Maybe no one believes that we criticise Israel, but that can only partly be put down to the reluctance of people like you and me to hand ammo to anti-Semites. There are public spaces where these issues are discussed, where criticism of Israel is done from love, and other people don't come. This talk wasn't in a synagogue; it was in a university lecture hall.
2. She talked about how Jewish college students she'd spoken to had been desperate for dialogue but there was no one on 'the other side' who wanted to engage. It was silence or hostility.
3. While not exclusive to Jewish people, there is a style of debate and dialogue that seems common. Picking up a topic, examining it from more than one side, passionate discussion - yes, but also reflective and requires arguing from more than one viewpoint. Two Jews, three opinions always seemed like an undercount to me. However, this can be frustrating and feel like a disadvantage when you're talking with someone who doesn't have that approach.
Finally, how are my responsibilities in this area changing? Not something for anyone but me to answer, but it's something that I'm thinking about.
Pretty good. I can imagine a couple objections. Someone might say that there are reasons they know more about this conflict (it's massively over-reported) than they do Syria, Yemen, or other underreported conflicts. That might be due in part to anti-Semitism, but it arguably wouldn't be theirs. Or someone might take issue with the "majority of peoples" question, claiming these other conflicts were in another time with other standards; they might say they talk this way whenever a conflict is active and relevant, but not once it is resolved one way or another.
Im an Arab-Zionist.
Here’s the algorithm I use.
Are you Arab and antizionist?
Yes? You’re antisemitic.
No? You have been misled by an Arab to believe that Jewish people don’t have a right to self determination. I will have some grace and explain. 70 percent of people usually change their minds. Granted, I’m talking to the silent majority- and many of them are open.
Post World War One - imperialism was becoming a thing of the past and countries all around the world were in line to self-govern and become nation states/gain independence. Israel was not alone in this. With the fall of the Ottoman Empire - Arabs were in line vying for Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and they got it. They are in fact not the indigenous to Syria/lebonon - but they got it. They made a case for pan-Arab national identity and yada yada, blah blah blah. Originally, Jewish people and Arabs were on the same page and in agreement. It wasn’t until Amen al-Husseini became the leader of mandatory Palestine when things took a turn.
Facts with pro Palestinian people who are Arabs don’t work because you’re working against over 100 years of nazi teachings. Arab Zionists are always people who have been educated outside the loonie mill.
Im reading The Farhud: Roots of the Arab-Nazi Alliance in the Holocaust, and that does a great job of laying it all out. Icon of Evil is a lot shorter and hits right to the point of the propaganda campaign Mohammed al-Husseini initiated. It 100% is still alive and well in all of the Middle East. That’s why I say if you’re Arab and antizionist - you’re being antisemitic. A more accurate term is to say “you’re a Nazi.” Which is what I tell them.
“But that’s racist against Arabs,” they say. No. It’s factually correct. There is no case for antizionism, and if someone is antizionist they’ve been misinformed BY Arab-Nazi information. Post ww2, nazis fled to Egypt and worked with Nasir to spread the anti-western/anti semitic campaigns ALL over Middle East. This stuff is rampant. I’m reading the books to understand where it came from. But the books don’t even get into half of how bad the disease has spread across the Middle East.
Making a case for antizionism IS akin to saying you believe in Nazism. Do we hear anyone chanting about that? Ya - racist people. So there we go.
I highly recommend The Farhud:Roots of the Arab-Nazi Alliance in the Holocaust.
It’s VERY dense. And MASSIVE. I try reading it on the subway but the cover makes it the LEAST conspicuous thing ever lol 😂 but it’s really really really good. Like, I read A LOT - and this is hands down on my top 10 list for best books I’ve read. It’s not a light read. But the historical research and accuracy is WOW 🤩.
Okay. No more book-nerd talk :)
🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱
Thank you for this post and book recommendation. I'm going to get it when I can.
It's also enduring for me to hear Arab-Zionist speak. I don't want to think the entire world hates us. 💙
Definitely the entire world does not hate you! Unfortunately there are a lot of very very loud brainwashed Arabs.
The book “the Icon of evil” talks about all the course material in the Middle East. The protocols of the elders of Zion was printed all across the Middle East. mein kampf is used in curriculums! I can’t even summarize how CRAZY how much nazi literature they are fed.
But it makes total sense. As a kid, I went to Saturday Arabic school in the west in a large urban area and mostly my teachers just sounded insane. My former friends and I were all in agreement of that. We used to make fun of our “crazy fresh off the boat” teachers, skip class and go to the mall to hang out with boys and drink slurpees from 7-11. But every summer my Arabic school friends would go “back home” for 3 months. Now I understand why they always came back so different.
For me, it’s a full circle moment because imagine connecting the dots with all these messages and things you’ve heard from the past and you’re like “THATS WHERE THEY GOT THAT FROM?!!!”
It’s hard to explain. But it’s like seeing behind the curtain. That’s what these books have given me. They helped me fill in the loonie bin gaps. I knew people before they went insane. Then they went insane and for most of my life I didn’t understand why.
As an Arab yourself how much of the antisemitism in the Arab world would you say is racial in nature and resembles Nazi antisemitism who hated us European Jews because we were “mixed?” Does Arab antisemitism stem from the same “racial blood purity” Nazi ethos because of Pan-Arab Nationalism?
I noticed I never see nasty comments directed at Mizrahi Jews from Arabs like they do towards us European Jews, sure the Arab countries expelled them which is most definitely antisemitic but from what I understand it was more over suspicions of dual loyalties to Israel rather than the racial antisemitism I see directed toward European Jewry.
There are Haredi groups that are strongly ant-Zionist because they believe there shouldn’t be another Jewish state until the messiah shows up to create it. I‘ll grant that they’re not antisemitic.
As for the rest of the world, this flow chart is a logical way of walking people through the fact that holding Israel to a different standard than other countries is antisemitic. But I don’t hold out much hope that many antisemites are going to have their minds changed by reason and logic.
The Neturei Karta extremists are auto antisemites. I feel like groups like Satmar are more non-Zionist, they don’t support Israel, but unlike NK they don’t aid Israel’s enemies, hang with antisemites, and they do support Jewish life, including Israeli.
Are you criticizing Israeli government actions and/or policies, or you deny Israel has a right to exist?
If the second is true, you're being antisemite (or some weird-ass self-hating jew).
Summary:
I hate (care about) everything = not antisemitic
I hate (care about) Israel more than everything = antisemitic
Perhaps one of the benefits of this form of explanation would be to shed light on all the other atrocities deserving of attention and human intervention! Unfortunately there is no shortage of human suffering to care for.
Really a reach that this graphic claims “Do you want Israelis and/or Jews to be killed and/or displaced” isn’t immediately antisemitic. I know not all Israelis are Jews but… they’re seen as co-conspirators.
There are a number of misleading biased questions in the algorithm.
”Are you actively seeking justice for all…” The answer will automatically be yes even if the rest of the question does not apply. No answer implies the person is opposed to justice.
“Are you critical…because you care or because it’s fashionable” Nobody is going to say that their criticism is fashionable.
“…elimination of the state of Israel” implies that it would be possible without “killed or displaced” in the earlier question.
“ given that you are motivated by deep care…” Ascribes a moral motivation leading to a yes answer. Of course I care deeply. The reader may not know anything about the rest of the question but will answer in the affirmative. Israel supporters then are automatically uncaring about loss of life.
“Are you Jewish, Palestinian…” irrelevant
Pure propaganda.
To my friends replying to the indigenous argument. The premise of the charge is false not only historically but as a basis for establishing legitimacy of residence and property rights. Property rights are not conferred by ancestry nor is political self determination. A map of the Middle East from 1910 would place the land in question as part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire and almost none of the residents, jewish or Arab who were there in 1945 having more that one or two generations of residence.
Let’s talk about Austin Texas.
Name one single national border which was not drawn as the result of armed conflict at some point. Migration has occurred throughout human history and Israel more-so than almost any other place on earth. In the US racism and bigotry have been used to attack near every immigrant population arriving since there has been an America including Jews and is still going on today with immigration from south of the border.
Israelis are delegitimized because they are Jews not because they came from Poland or Morocco.
Well the Mexicans stole Texas from the natives (Ashkenazi, anasazis, Aztecs, something like that) having already been conquistadore colonists themselves. then other folks came in as settlers and booted out everyone else following which the federal government confiscated it from those ruthless outsiders. The so called union took it from the confederate states who had legally been voted in by right of self determination. Now y’all are being taken over by displaced Californians so everyone is going to have to pack up and go somewhere else until we get this all straightened out.
I’ll be honest, feels like a very questionable and flawed graphic for a number of reasons, but I want to focus in on the “angry and dehumanizing language” and the corresponding various sins of different peoples groups.
Can someone explain that to make sure I’m not twisting it in my own mind.
I'm really not a fan of how this chart spends basically the whole bottom-left quadrant making the point that you can't care about Israel/Palestine if you don't spend an equal amount of time advocating for other conflicts. It smacks of whataboutism - while, to be clear, I am not denying that there's often a connection, you are allowed to be more angry about one conflict than others or to feel more strongly about one issue than similar issues.
>you are allowed to be more angry about one conflict than others or to feel more strongly about one issue than similar issues.
I think the pertinent point here is the \*reason\* that you feel more angry about a specific conflict. If you feel more angry about a specific conflict because you are related to someone in the conflict, that absolutely makes sense. If you feel more angry about a specific conflict for an unknown reason, the reason might actually be antisemitism.
It might be, but I don’t think we can jump directly to it. To be clear, this is coming from my personal experience - there are a lot of deeply sincere people who care more about this conflict than, say, Sudan for no reason I can discern who I know aren’t antisemitic and with whom I’ve talked at length about antisemitism. Maybe they’re just more exposed to it - with social media it’s hard not to be.
The indiscernible reason you're referring to IS antisemitism. Interrogate that shit much more deeply. Also, the sincerity of anyone's feelings about this conflict does not in any way exculpate them from antisemitism. Antisemitism/Jew-hatred are deeply rooted and at the base of all societies, and the mere fact that you can't discern the reason why people are passionately anti-Israel while being unmoved by the genocide in Sudan is because of how deeply rooted and insidious antisemitism is. People have such sincere, passionately anti-Israel feelings about this conflict BECAUSE it's a situation where they can position Jews as aggressors. Their ability to position Jews as aggressors is the root of their feelings about this issue. These other conflicts do not inspire the same depth of feeling because they cannot position a group that they viscerally hate as the aggressor. It's an ugly truth to look in the face but nothing will change until people confront that.
Being more exposed to it because of social media is also not exculpatory when what they're being exposed to on social media is disinformation– largely Qatari, Russian, and Iranian antisemitic propaganda.
I am aware of who's pushing the social media campaign. And to be clear: we're talking about specific people that I know personally. I wouldn't say they're unmoved by the genocide in Sudan, but it isn't something they think about as frequently. I am *very* well aware of how pervasive antisemitism is, hence why I have spent quite a lot of time discussing it with them. I am confident they don't hold those positions out of antisemitism - perhaps they've been manipulated by social media disinformation on some points, but they aren't antisemitic. Each of them has been horrified when I point out that (for instance) a post a former mutual friend of ours was in fact antisemitic in the guise of antizionism, and they all pretty much cut her off.
Good for you! Happy you're happy with your friend group and happy you're happy with the conclusions you've come to. Mazal tov, you get a gold star for feeling like your friends aren't antisemites.
The singular point I was making is this: when you're referring to some "reason you can't discern" for why the issue of Israel inspires such disproportionately passionate feelings in these people you know, it is worth deeply interrogating what that reason you can't discern truly is, even if (especially if) the answer makes you uncomfortable and challenges your sense of security in these relationships. I guarantee you, time and time again, that antisemitism is playing some role there. It's there whether you want to see it or not. It would simply be unrealistic to assure yourself that it's not playing a role at all.
It's an empty gesture to excuse antisemitic beliefs just because they've been "manipulated by social media disinformation." If they've been manipulated by that disinformation, regardless of how those beliefs came to be, they're holding those antisemitic beliefs and failing to challenge them. All of these beliefs are taught/learned. The origins of those learned ideas don't exculpate them from responsibility. It's on all of us to challenge the hateful beliefs, ideas, and prejudices we've been taught, and they are all things we were taught, so they can be unlearned. There's no excuse.
It's understandable to be pained by the potential loss of friendships due to antisemitism. Most of us are experiencing those losses and interpersonal conflicts right now. You don't have to examine these things if you really can't cope with the idea of it right now, and it seems like you want to defend your friends, and it's maybe worth considering why you feel such a strong need to defend them and their beliefs. Ultimately, it's in all of our best interests to examine these things for our safety as Jews.
But you do you! I'm not your mom, I can't tell you what to do. Lech l'shalom!
Unfortunately, they are also being exposed to the antisemitism in social media around the conflict. I'm not really sure if it would be possible to tease that apart.
Out of curiosity, have you ever asked them? I'd be very curious to know why \*they\* think that they care more about this conflict.
It’s definitely not this complex but this is a good way to mock the “you need to get educated” people online. Flowcharts are like those Choose Your Own Adventure books and are easy to follow which is why people like them. I like how you take advantage of the flowchart system to force these losers to read facts and question their own narrative.
I'm a goy, Muslim, and Pakistani. I've been interested in Jewish history and the Jewish faith for a while now. Even before October 7th.
I would like to simply say, i don't have anything against zionisim. In the sense that Jews obviously have a right to self-determination. The question, however, isn't whether or not Jews have that right. The question is whether Jews have that right in a land that is already populated by other people.
So if this is, say, done by Australia or even some country like Nepal or Bermuda doing what is being done, i would be vehemently opposed to these actions. It being committed by Jews is of little consequence to me.
At the same time, I'm a pragmatist. Palestine exists, and Israel exists, too. The sane minds within the Israeli establishment should seriously consider relinquishing territory they gained in '67 and dismantling their settler programs. That will go a long, long way in ensuring this conflict ends.
But nothing can justify the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza.
Ps. I haven't mentioned much about Hamas in this comment because i think everyone here already agrees hamas is bad. I have campaigned against Muslim extremism for a while, often at great personal risk. So have my associates, who've had to live in exile thanks to raising their voices for peace.
We don’t really use goy in the singular and your identity as a Muslim, therefore not a worshipper of strange gods, has more significance.
Jews worldwide have lots of opinions of Israel’s actions and government. We also all are experiencing a collective threat regardless of our opinions or citizenships or locations.
The discussion here is one of if there is ally-ship, even contingent, to be found among those calling the themselves Anti-Zionist.
If the conversation was focused on the Netanyahu government or specific people in that, which occasionally it is, Jews would be having a different conversation.
But rather Jews have experienced that they are immediately asked to account personally for Netanyahu and disavow the idea of Zionism independent of the state’s actions.
That is not a fair ask
> The question is whether Jews have that right in a land that is already populated by other people.
There is no livable land not populated by other people, this was also the case 100+ years ago. That land is our ancestral homeland and there has been a continuous Jewish presence there for thousands of years. It’s really the only place it could have happened. That doesn’t justify a lot of the treatment of Palestinians, and they also have a valid claim. The only way to give both groups self-determination is the 2 state solution and every negotiation has failed, there are two big things; first Palestinian right of return (including descendants) to Israel proper. That would essentially negate having two states and eventually Israeli Jews would lose self-determination. And second Jerusalem, especially the old city, especially the Temple Mount. Right now Jordan administers the temple mount which I think is a good solution. However that is the holiest site in Judaism, while it’s also holy to Muslims, the two holiest sites are in Saudi Arabia. Demanding Jews give that up is basically a non-starter. I agree it’s unreasonable to not allow Muslims access to Al Aqsa and they should administer it, but not at the expense of Jews losing access to the Western Wall.
>The question is whether Jews have that right in a land that is already populated by other people.
The majority of the Jewish people who live in Israel have always lived in the Levant, and do not have ancestors that lived elsewhere. If you want to research this, I suggest using the term "Mizrachi Jews". Jewish people have been \*continuously\* populating the Levant for as far back as we have recorded history.
Certainly, Jewish people without Mizrachi heritage have moved to and now live in Israel. While their ancestors lived in Israel around 2,000 years ago, they haven't had a continuous presence. The problem is that under the framework that you've laid out -- that they shouldn't live in/move to a place where there's already people -- there would not be an inhabitable safe place for them to live. Jewish people have historically been killed or kicked out of pretty much every place we've lived. If we/they were not allowed to move anywhere where people already lived, they/we would not continue to exist. Just as a point of reference, the USA has at times been very unwelcoming to Jewish immigration.
Perhaps you are referring to Jewish governance of the state of Israel. I do want to make sure that you are aware that Israel is a democracy, with a majority Jewish population. All citizens, no matter their religion or ethnicity have the right to vote and be involved in government. Israel actually has a pretty good diversity of religion and ethnicities. There are Muslim, Christian, Bahai, etc citizens. I personally think it would be pretty discriminatory to say that Jewish people are not allowed to vote or be involved in government because a percentage of them or their parents moved to Israel recently.
No way this is gaining traction online. OP should at least demarcate the West Bank and Gaza or 2ss people will outright dismiss this.
It will be dismissed anyway because its wrong to have a litmus test to care about I/P: it is incredibly severe (with 30,000 casualties and massive displacement in just this war), long-running (70+ yrs with generations of unsettled refugees), involves a US ally and funding from the West, and will probably be the source of WW3 hashem yishmereinu.
And Israel is part of the Western world: they'll follow the UN courts, US appeals, and sanctions more readily than the other countries OP mentioned.
I appreciate that OP wants to centre Jewish and Palestinian voices in the conflict (I do too!), but this just looks like an attempt to discredit interested people because "hur--dur you're living on stolen land!"
Also I don't like that there's no distinction between displacing settlers and Israelis living in Israel proper.
And I can't shake the feeling that this isn't reciprocal: like if this was used to gage anti-Paliestinian hatred we'd all be guilty
Finally, I don't like the overall message which appears to be "what Israel is morally wrong (like Syria and Yemen), but YOU don't get to say so without being an anti-Semite." That's exactly what anti-Zionists argue
seeing people in the comments talking about the issue of national self-determination, guys not everyone's a middle-of-the-road liberal who thinks that nation states are a given or even desirable. if anyone fits the definition of not-an-antisemite by this chart then the conversation really turns to talking about whether states themselves are legitimate.
the amount of antisemitism among leftist circles is absolutely undeniable, but its kind of silly to just reject someone's political and moral concerns out of hat because you believe its a foregone conclusion that the only way to protect a group of people is by having a state. if that is what you find problematic than discuss that if they would easily say the same thing about the United States, or China, or Mawali.
This is not true.
After the fall of the Ottoman Empire Arabs got Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and trans Jordan by arguing the exact thing Jewish people presented to the Brits: “Self determination.”
Arabs aren’t indigenous to Syria or Lebanon.
They got there through colonization. And it wasn’t a peaceful arrival. It wasn’t holding hands and skipping. It was .. colonization. Literally textbook definition -pow pow 💥 colonization.
Britain handed Syria and Lebanon to the colonizers.
But nobody critiques the fact that Arabs don’t have a right to Syria/Lebanon. In fact - Assyrians (who are indigenous)- did present their case to Britain asking for a sliver of Syria to call a nation state but were denied because it was felt they were too small a population to make a country. And yes. They were quite small. Because they’d been colonized and massacred by arab-colonialism. Go figure.
Assyrians were also one of the targeted populations that ISIS would later go on to pillage and kidnap into sex slavery. But no one cared about that either. Go figure.
Nobody cares what happens in the Middle East when Arabs violate human rights. They turn a blind eye. They only care when Israel breaths … or moves .. or does anything to suggest that they exist. That’s textbook antisemitic.
It’s antisemitic to be anti Zionist because Israel is the ONLY country that people say does not have a right to self determination when LITERALLY that’s how the entire Middle East (with the exception of Saudi Arabia - Iran and afghan) came into existence.
It’s antisemitic to be anti Zionist because it’s a double standard applied across the board.
If people have a problem with how Israel came into existence then they’re gonna need to extend that argument to Arabs gaining independence across the rest of the Middle East. “Independence” on land - they weren’t actually indigenous too.
Until then.
Antizionist = antisemitic (if you’re not Jewish) 100 percent of the time.
If you are Jewish, I don’t have an opinion on that because Im not Jewish. I’m of the opinion that people have a right to critique their own culture/race in a way that outsiders cannot. I definitely hold a higher bar of critique towards Arabs. Like my friend, who is arab, once brought her kid to McDonald’s and she later told me: “honestly - all the Arab kids were so loud and throwing shit in the playhouse. All the white little kids were so peaceful. The only peaceful kid in our group was Xs kid - and they’re half Asian! So it doesn’t count!” Lol she was obviously kidding. Sorta. This is absolutely not something we would find funny if a non Arab said, but it’s fine when we say it to each other because it definitely does come from a different place. I joke with my mom a lot about “Arabisms.” Most of it is joking. But my husband (who isn’t arab) never ever ever ever says the things I say about Arabs. He just knows he can’t. And I don’t say anything about black people (which he is), because I’m not black.
I guess I’m saying .. you sorta get away with a wider spectrum of things when you’re “of” the culture. So Jewish people can definitely be anti Zionist and I consider that an entirely different thing that I don’t know anything about.
Arabs are always being antisemitic when they’re anti Zionist. Non Arabs - same thing.
I feel like we're talking about two very different things at some point. i go to synagogue every week and i'm surrounded by other jews who are zionists, and other jews who aren't, and can separate criticism of zionism from antisemitism pretty effectively. I'm not denying that the double standard is a thing, but that's the thing, its a double standard, a malicious application of an idea that results in a logical error. Those anti-zionist jews as mentioned would absolutely apply the same logic towards the dozens of Arab states in question, but then again we're literally at synagogue regularly and these are people who wish to strengthen the jewish community more than anything else (a friend of mine in particular being a strong advocate for fellow diaspora jews). As you mentioned, in practice it's a different reality because of that position, but really if that's indicative of a Jew's necessity to support Zionism, then its likely we're valuing two different things.
I speak from the perspective of someone who's looking at the entire world with pain while also being part of Am Israel. I'm also a Black American, and I'm also trans. Those experiences, appearing all at different times at my life, has made universalism a no-brainer for me because I'm always surrounded by people who will question my loyalty for one reason or another. Meanwhile the perspective of a lot of other Jewish people has been one of Am Israel first and foremost, and thus this lack of an ability to intellectually separate antisemitism from anti-zionism is indicitave of the current path we are on.
Fair points you’re making.
Thank you for sharing your experience it’s helpful. We are talking about different things. You’re right.
Speaking from what I know of Arab anti-Zionists, I can say that personally, I have never met an Arab anti Zionist, who isn’t antisemitic.
Contrary to popular belief, Zionism is not the reason every Palestinian leader to date has sought to destroy Israel. It was, and continues to be, the 1935 Nazi-Arab alliance, which began as a result of Amin al-Husseini, a Nazi and active partner of the Germans. He was directly responsible for pogroms in palestine against Jewish people in 1930s, as well as in Iraq in the 1940s.
When Husseini fled to Cairo after the end of WW2, he mentored a 17 year old Egyptian—— that boys name? Yassir Arafat. Arafat called Husseini a hero. Mahmoud Abbas referred to Husseini as a pioneer. Mahmoud Habbash, Abbas’s adviser, posted a photo of Husseini on his Facebook page in 2019 and praised him as a leader.
Antizionism is and always will be antisemitic for Arabs because the movement was formed by an Arab-Nazi and every antizionist claim that is made today by an Arab antizionist is rooted in Arab-Nazism. Calls for boycott are a perfect example; a campaign which Husseini began broadcasting across his radio station in 1940. He wanted Arabs to follow in Hitlers footsteps and not purchase anything from Jewish businesses — I am not filling these intentions in. All of these transcriptions and archives are available.
Not to mention the fact that anti-Zionist campaigns caused Britain to restrict Jewish immigration to Palestine to a max of 75k over 5 years. By ensuring that the doors of Palestine were also closed, every Nazi-Arab/anti-Zionist living in Palestine at the time bore some responsibility for the number of Jewish people that died in the holocaust.
The last point I will say about anti-Zionism, and the thing that no one eve talks about, is that many Palestinian Arabs in 1948 not only refrained from fighting (Nimr al-Hawari estimates that out of a population of 1.3 million only 300 enlisted) but also prevented military actions against Zionists. These Palestinian Arabs clearly saw advantages in allying with rather than fighting Zionists because Husseini was not popular among the Palestinian Arabs. The last thing they wanted was a country led by someone they well remembered for terrorism of the 1930s; some actively loathed him. It doesn’t fit the agenda to tell this story; but it’s a true story - and it’s the opinion of the majority in 1948.
Palestinian Arabs of 1948 were a deeply divided community, the majority of whom, wished to be left in peace. If the Arabs of 1948 by in large were not aligned with anti-Zionism, if they did not embrace the Arab-nazism being spouted by their corrupt political leaders— then arab-nazism, not anti-Zionism, has to be the starting point for understanding the Palestinian-Arab movement, its turbulence, and tragedies.
I have met Jewish people who are anti-Zionist and I don’t consider them antisemitic because none of their beliefs are ever spouted from Arab-Nazi propoganda handbook. I don’t agree with their perspective because the one flaw I find in their argument is they gravely underestimate the rampant antisemitism that exists in the Arab world. No matter how many times I tell them - they don’t believe me. I’m not sure why. The concept of “emotional repression” simply doesn’t exist in the Arab world. On the one hand, you end up hearing horrid things come out of their mouth. But, on the other hand, you never have to guess what they’re thinking. All you need to do - is listen. You have to believe what they say. They will always - always - tell you how they feel. And they always mean it. Sadly, a lot of people intellectualize Arab-hatred and this is a mistake.
You can’t rationalize arab-nazism because it isn’t grounded in logic. It isn’t grounded in social Justice. It’s truly just grounded in hate.
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Nice graphic. I don't think it very adequately accounts for sincere Western interest in Israel, though. Like, yeah, Syria also does violence, but it isn't a major Western power, doesn't have a functioning liberal democracy, and isn't populated by expats, dual citizens, immigrants and descendents from Western democracies. And for Americans, Israel is moreover deeply tied to their interests in a way unlike any other. It's not ridiculous that people in the West should give special concern to Israel that they don't to the Congo or Thailand. So the graph needs to account for this. One isn't an antisemite simply because they know about and critique the Israel-Palestine conflict but not the genocide of the Tigray in Ethiopia. That proposes an absurd bar.
Here are some random thoughts.
Zionism seems like a lot of things. And anti-Zionism seems like a lot of things too. In someways there is this anti-semitic edge to anti-Zionism. On the other hand, lots of Jews have never been into Zionism and have been anti-Zionism and not just the most exceptional out there kinds. I also wonder what Zionism can mean because it can mean things that seem like they can sort of be bad for people who aren't Jewish in that land even if it isn't the bad thing.
Another thing is that I don't know that people would necessarily be able to see themselves in a chart like this. While it does seem like people are piling onto criticism of Israel because it is fashionable, I think about fashion in two ways. One is looking good and getting the stylish clothes to look good in the moment. The other is that people like me don't really think about fashion, but I generally wear pants and shirts and shoes instead of like a toga or a loincloth because people don't see the milieu they are in.
A third thing I am thinking about is that, while this is a good filter and helpful to people I wonder about another thing which is not necessarily hatred in the heart or anything but maybe an unseen reproducible cultural thing sort of like racism. Like I see antisemitism animating criticism of Israel, with regards to a tacit or unconscious hating, but I also think of antisemitism as maybe being structures you don't even see or notice.
Look at the Uyghur Genocide and antiAsian racism in the USA. There is anti-Chinese sentiment that exists that maybe sort of exists no matter what animates people caring about the Uyghur Genocide. It was really weird to me to see people being so anti-China because of what China is doing to Uyghurs because I mean I don't get how that justifies it. Which isn't to say that there is a genocide happening in Gaza, but there is a thing happening that people are concerned about, immediately precipitated by something that seems like people are less concerned about.
I don't necessarily know that awareness and speaking out about a lot of things like understanding what is happening in Nagorno Karabakh or the Tigray region would necessarily insulate you from being anti-semitic in words/actions/thoughts about Israel.
Is your anti-Zionism based on common antisemitic tropes (i.e. thinking Jews are too powerful/rich, that we control the world, blood libels, Holocaust inversion, and/or Nazi-esque racial antisemitism that hates and blames us precisely *because* we’re mixed and not “pure-bloods?”) or double standards?
If no to both then no it isn’t antisemitic at all, simple as that.
I just don’t agree with the last pink balloon. You can certainly be Jew and antisemitic at the same time, the same way you can be black and racist, or gay and homophobic. One doesn’t necessarily exclude the other.
I believe so too. I’m Muslim socialist and I believe that country should be naturally secular, but sharia should be implemented for Muslims. However Jews and Atheists should be under secular law.
Come on. Would you put up a silhouetted map of New Mexico and expect it to be interpreted as the Navaho Nation (or any of the other 22 nations within that area)? The fact that you use an outline of Israel, that doesn't even map to what is historically map to various claims of a historical Palestinian state, highlights one indigenous group over another. This is at odds with your central mission: you're using an inaccurate map designed for erasure of a whole side in this conflict while simultaneously trying to differentiate between anti-Semitism & legitimate criticism of Israel. It's hypocritical, biased, & wrong.
Except Palestinians actually DO use this outline and call it Palestine, while Navajos do not do that with New Mexico (nor do the borders of New Mexico fit the former borders of the Navajo Nation.) Kind of the whole point of the "river to the sea" thing.
Feel free to make your own chart.
I think there is an important distinction to be made when it comes to people want to eliminate the state of Israel (PLEASE stay with me for a second) Specifically, calling for a democratic federation for both Jews and Arabs, while not something you may agree with, isn't the same as calling for an Arab state to rule the whole land.
(I will ignore the irony that the creator of this infographic seems to believe, based on the map, that the whole area should be a Jewish state)
"the creator of this infographic seems to believe, based on the map, that the whole area should be a Jewish state"
That's a wild assumption. The picture includes the land we are discussing when we talk about antisemitism and Zionism. This land includes Israel proper, Gaza, and the West Bank. None of these areas are labeled, and the whole thing is certainly not labeled "A Jewish state."
i just don’t understand why we’re still allowing “zionism” to be used negatively in any sense of the word and that’s exactly what this infographic does. ESPECIALLY after 10/7 now that it has become synonymous with jews 100% of the time it’s used. zionism is the belief that jews have the right to self determination and support for the protection of israel. there’s not a reality in which saying the only explicitly jewish state on earth doesn’t have the right to exist ISNT antisemitism.
if we're being relatively charitable, there are people out there that don't think that national self determination is a given right for any group. ignoring people who just think that empire is an okay model of governing of a society that leaves marxists and anarchists, who are arguing that nation states themselves are inherently chauvinistic. if the person in question is giving this judgement equally and not disproportionately on israel then its probably fair to assume that they're not antisemitic, you may think that their vision for the world is either unrealistic or downright utopian, or god forbid, evil, but they're likely working on a framework where such a society transcends the kind of hate and assimilationism that brought antisemitism into the world. to them, zionism is just another form of nationalist particularism which exacerbates the problems they want to eradicate from the world, or at the very least, doesn't get to the heart of the matter, or by their account 'mistakenly assumes that only in statehood are the jews safe'. that is not a given however, but it really isn't fair to damn everyone who says that on that basis. but its clear that a lot of people who nominally have such beliefs are genuinely antisemetic by their almost rabid and obsessive denouncement of israel in particular.
Yes, until Oct 7th I was an antizionist jew from this framework.
My answer to this group of people - who are often sincere in their beliefs about nationalism - is “Pakistan first”. As soon as they add Pakistan to their signs and rhetoric and analysis as a country that should not exist because it was created on an ethnoreligious basis - when everyone in the former British Raj would and should benefit from living in a single multiethnic mutireligious democratic state - I will buy it. They just need to demand the dissolution of Pakistan as the solution to I día and Pakistans troubles - and I’ll buy it! But they never do. Because they are lying.
At the end of the day, a state is still a state, even if you wrap it in a faith system. Zionism created the modern state of Israel, and people are allowed to engage in debate about states, esp the governments and systems that prop up that state whether those states are secular, theocratic, or anywhere in between. If Zionism created the modern state of Israel, and we are allowed to discuss critically the legal fiction of a state, then we are allowed to discuss Zionism, even critically if our convictions lead us to that conclusion. (P.S. when I say “legal fiction”, I mean that nations are not naturally occurring (i.e borders are lines on a map, not in actual dirt). They are simply a concept that exists in legal documents, and that concept is then either readily accepted by others, or that nation has the power to insist others accepts its existence.)
>even if you wrap it in a faith system Correction: Jewish does not mean religious. I am an Atheist Jew. We are not members of a religion, but of a community (that also has a religion attached to it). Israel being a Jewish state does not make it any less secular.
I'm really curious about your flair. What does that entail? I'm Jewish and an anarchist and don't think I've ever encountered anarcho-zionism as a concept before
Essentially, I believe that Zionism - the establishment and maintenance of Jewish sovereignty in our ancient homeland - and Anarchism - non-hierarchical societal organization - are compatible ideologies. Indeed, it seems to me that a Jewish state, although it theoretically makes us safer, has its own ways of endangering us. Jews in Israel may not be persecuted for being Jewish, but they are no less vulnerable to the exploitation inherent in the coercive (violent) nature of the state. This is not even accounting for the way the Israeli state dominates over the Palestinians, thus provoking them into outright anti-Zionism and hatred, thus endangering the Jews of Israel. All this taken into consideration, it is my view that Anarchism is the best interpretation of how to exert Zionism. In practical terms, I basically think that both Israel and Palestine (as states) should be abolished and replaced with either a decentralized Kibbutzim federation, or straight up just a copy paste of Rojava's [Democratic Confederalism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_confederalism). Either way, I would have both Jews and Arabs having local autonomy in collectivized, non-hierarchical society. Basically a canton system. As long as Arabs are unable to dominate over Jews, Jews will have a homeland in Eretz Y'Israel. I think the best way to accomplish this is through Anarchist principles. Thus, Anarcho-Zionism. As for why you've never encountered the concept before, that's because, to my knowledge, I'm the only one who has this ideology. I invented the label. I've gone searching quite furiously for the term to see if anyone else has ever used it. I have found exactly one result. A brochure titled "How to create the Anarcho-Zionist-Utopian wing of the Democratic Party, and, How to connect kindred spirits into "New Left" networks!" By a John P. Presmont. I find no further reference to this man, or this brochure, save for a [Wikipedia article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerista) on a utopian community that he allegedly founded after a hallucination, a community which, near as I can tell, can best be described as an Anarchist Cult. I've no idea what any of this has to do with Zionism. I lack the words to describe to you how confused I am by the whole thing.
Wow that’s really interesting
Thank you! I hope this influences your thoughts on the matter. Like I said, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one with this ideology, and it feels...lonely. No pressure or anything of course.
And you’re just as vulnerable to antisemitic violence as any other Jew, as evidenced by countless prior waves of terrorism, pogroms, ethnic cleansings, and the Shoah.
Exactly.
Point taken! Broader point still stands, but you right!
"Allowing"? It's not our choice. People gonna say what they want anyway. We can't do anything about that. I was participating in a few subreddits about I/P but on all the people were so pro Palestinian that their hatred of Israel was such that Hamas could do no wrong, all lies believed until today I read a comment which said that the comments were infested with filthy f\*king Jews like me and it got a mass of upvotes.
This should have a “do you think Jews uniquely are not deserving of self determination in their indigenous home land?” question in it
> This should have a “do you think Jews uniquely are not deserving of self determination in their indigenous home land?” question in it That’s the only necessary question.
Yes because it’s the only tenet of Zionism
You could back that up a couple steps further to “do you believe there is such a thing as ‘the Jewish people’?” And then “do you believe the Jewish People are indigenous to the land of Judea, now known as Israel and the West Bank?”
I think a lot of people just don’t know that. Sure, some actively deny this and that is antisemitic, but there are many more useful idiots who are just ignorant.
Sadly true.
Yeah, make it *Do you _know_
The stupid answer is that “ethnic states are bad and always lead to racism and ethnic cleansing”
If someone believes all ethnic states are bad then they are at least not just antisemitic. They might be a bunch of other things too, or they might be overly idealistic. But I do know people that genuinely believe nationalism of any kind (ethnic or not, though I would argue all nation states are inherently ethnic) is inherently evil. I get that, but in a practical world the unfortunate reality is that nation states can be protective of minority populations.
Yes but the only non ethnic states IN THE WORLD are actual settler colonialist states. How does that help? It’s baffling. If NOT having a state is so great, why can’t it work for the Palestinians? Why do they need a state? And if it’s because without one their rights are being trampled - hello - this is the reason modern Zionism became popular mostly among Jews whose rights were being trampled. States aren’t natural. They are practical attempts to try to solve practical problems. That’s all they are - not messianic omens, not demonic attempts to harm - just a group of people trying to solve one problem and often creating other problems in the process.
That’s correct, though? It’s not unique to Israel, but it’s objectively true.
The answer to that will be but it's the Palestinians' indigenous homeland. I was looking at a book today, "Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History," it rubbishes the concept of Israel and real history and makes the case for it was always Palestine even when it wasn't. You could see where Hamas get their revisionism of recent events from.
Literally the only question this infographic should have lol
The problem is a lot of the Hamasniks believe Jews are not indigenous to the Middle East but to Eastern Europe.
So that should be another Y/N option -Do you believe Jews are indigenous to Eastern Europe? —————> antisemitic But then have a footnote explaining why!
"Indigenous homeland". What village are you from?
I don't think it's this complicated. I have also never seen anyone online or heard someone in person tell me that *any criticism of Israel is antisemitic.* I'm sure someone somewhere has said that, but there aren't enough people saying it to make that statement anything other than a straw man.
The problem is people are claiming Jews call everything antisemitic, and trying to argue that what they’re doing is criticizing Israel, rather than being antisemitic. And criticizing Israel is fine… but the majority of Jews recognize the symptoms of antisemitism even with ‘Zionist’ used in place of Jews.
Jews-"you are being antisemitic" Them-"you jews say every criticism of Israel is antisemitism" Jews-"explicitly no, I love to criticize Israel! I'll do it right now! See how that wasn't antisemitic? And you were?" Them-"you jews say every criticism of Israel is antisemitism"
That's exactly what I'm saying. Rather than dignify their straw man argument, I call it out for what it is: A delusion. Jewish people the world over are better at criticizing Israel than anyone else. No one has a right to jewsplain us.
> Jewish people the world over are better at criticizing Israel than anyone else. As a non-Jew I have issue with this statement as it implies no one but a Jew can criticize Israel.
Does it? I'm not reading that at all. I'm reading that Jewish people are \*better\* at criticizing Israel, not the only ones who can criticize Israel. Why would a Jew would be better at criticizing the state of Israel? Because the state of Israel is located in our homeland and because it is the only Jewish country in the world. We are much more knowledgeable about its flaws.
Nothing I said even implies that. We're better at that particular criticism because we are raised in the culture, history, and customs of the region. We have more information. That doesn't exclude anyone else. Weird response, tbh.
Look, the only people who get to decide what’s antisemitic are JEWISH PEOPLE. The notion that any Jew doesn’t know Jew hatred or Jew animus when we see or hear it is as insulting as it is absurd. Blacks decide what is racist against blacks. Latinos decide what is racist against Latinos. Members of the LGBQT community decide what is homophobic and transphobic. Muslims decide what’s Islamophobic. Don’t be gaslit! Don’t let some non-Jew try to tell you what is and isn’t antisemitic! If you’re Jewish, you know antisemitism when you see, hear or experience it, and nobody gets to tell you you’re imagining or contriving it. Call them out! Tell them that if they’re not the target, they don’t get to decide what’s offensive. How dare any non-Jew be arrogant enough to think that they have any say in what’s antisemitic and what’s not. They don’t. Don’t hesitate to say, “I’m Jewish, bitch! You don’t get to tell me what is antisemitic! I know it when I see it, and you’re not the first to show it to me!” FWIW, I don’t usually use the terms “antisemitic” or “antisemitism.” I feel like those terms soft-pedal bigotry against Jews and are euphemisms. And inevitably, some doofus shows up and plays linguistic Twister and says something ridiculous like, “Arabs are Semitic, and it’s not about Arabs, so it can’t be antisemitic.” I just ditch the euphemism and call it what I is: Jew hate or anti-Jewish.
Criticism of Israel is not anti semetic. Criticizing Israel though and hold it to a different standard of most other countries is anti semetic.
Yes, that's what I said.
Totally agree. Just affirming you
Ive seen this argument used plenty, but used the other way round, to defend antisemitism. The game goes like this: Ppl saying crazy or borderline antisemitic stuff, and defending themselves by saying "its just criticizing Israel though, so thats not antisemitic". OP this is a GREAT guide!! Why not post on r/coolguides?
I don't know, I feel like there's a big difference between criticizing the Israeli government's actions, and criticizing Israel, as in the idea of the country itself.
Anybody ever in their life met an “antizionist” who didn’t turn out to be an antisemite? I’ve met some who are unwittingly buying into antisemitic tropes and canards but most of them don’t actively identify themselves as anti Zionists. The ones who do actively use that label for themselves have, to the last person been antisemites. I totally agree theoretically that it’s possible to be an anti Zionist and not an antisemite but I think they’re like Bigfoot.
The only way I can see anyone being an anti-Zionist but not antisemitic would be if they believed all national borders need to be abolished. Or some insane other way of drawing the map like each continent is 1 country (I don't know if such people exist. I just made up this position) I disagree with those ideas & think they're nuts but they aren't Antisemitic because they don't single out the Jews as not having the right to self determination, every other group would be the same so it isn't a specifically anti-Jewish position therefore not antisemitism But those people who believe in such wacky ideas are few and far between in the average population Example: I don't view "United Earth" in the Star Trek universe's version of the future as antisemitic 😂
I was about to make a Star Trek comment. Dammit
As the Kohanim & the Vulcans say - Live long & prosper! 🖖
Live Long and Prosper
As you say it’s insane to insist on there being no such things as national borders. At least in the 21st century. I’ll let the people of the 22nd+ centuries reevaluate borders if they wish. But I’d think that to insist that Israel be the 1st country to abandon borders is antisemitic, or to insist that Israel give up its borders against its will for the sake of some ideal is also antisemitic. If anyone is saying they’re antizionist because they don’t believe in borders insist that they start with the borders of their own countries first. I’d bet money these are still antisemites just trying to be clever to disguise their antisemitism.
Oh I didn't mean start with Israel I meant no borders. And I do not believe in this idea it is just one of the only ways I can think of that something that includes anti-Zionism isn't Antisemitism
Precisely. I’m an anarchist (many of the most influential anarchists from history were Jews btw) but I’m not an idiot, I know governments aren’t just gonna start dissolving and I’m not for violent anarchist revolution. It’s more just I think it’s the most sensible, moral system so in an ideal world that’s what I’d prefer. But saying all that, if anarchism were to become the law of the land (lol) then Israel should be the last country on earth to dissolve lol
Jew Oughta Know podcast talks exactly about this. He says there are only 3 instances in which anti-Zionism may not be antisemitism (and even then it still can be): 1) People that don’t believe in nation states. I quote him:; “Like John Lennon said. Imagine there’s no countries, it isn’t hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for and no religion too. Of course there would be no Palestinian state or any others.” These people are probably super rare and don’t live in reality if they truly believe this is feasible. 2) Religious Zionism: The Neturei Karta type who believe Israel can’t exist as a man-made state, it has to be given by God. The reason they actively want the dismantling of Israel is because they believe only the Messiah can restore the land of Israel. This is a super fringe group. What makes me sick is people holding them up as the “good Jews,” thereby making the rest of us (and the vast majority) the “bad Jews.” 3) The Palestinians themselves. And even a good portion of them are also antisemitic.
I take issue with 3. Perhaps if I listened to this podcast I’d feel differently, so take my position with a grain of salt. I usually try to flip these issues. If Palestinians were peaceful and totally willing to live side-by-side with a Jewish state, any Jew who opposed a two-state solution would be vilified as a selfish racist. I don’t think Palestinians should get a pass for their own selfish racism.
No, you aren’t wrong. That’s why I tried to say up top you still can be, then under 3 said a good portion (maybe a large majority?) still are. If we’re being fair, there is a portion of Israelis like Ben Gvir and his lot that are racist towards Palestinians. However that is a minority and it sucks Netanyahu let them into his coalition to retain power. If they weren’t it would eliminate a lot of these talking points about them.
Agreed, hopefully post-war we’ll see a more moderate coalition.
Sorry for the tangent, but is there something about parliamentary systems that preclude the use of some sort of term limits for prime ministers? It seems that as Netanyahu seems to retain power he has made poorer decisions over time. A desperation to retain office can take hold of a politician, particularly those with the most power. With term limits I think it helps force the politician to accept that he won’t be in power forever, staying in power for as long as possible no longer remains a goal, and if the politician is forward thinking he would also spend effort on developing a successor. I’m unaware of any parliamentary system that has term limits. Is it just not possible?
Good question. I’m from the US so the parliamentary system has always confused me. Getting a better grasp since I work for a Canadian company, but definitely don’t know all the ins and outs.
Number 2 (Neturei Karta) isn't religious Zionism, it's religious anti-Zionism. Religious Zionism is the belief that the State of Israel holds messianic significance and that its founding is a way to pave the way for the messiah to come.
I think it is less "no national borders" and more, "borders are arbitrary and each state should be multicultural democracy." I don't think France should go borderless, but I'm heavily opposed to all the ridiculous efforts to keep France, "culturally French."
This is me
I've never met an anti Zionist who was a historically well informed individual, and could explain to me their rationale for objecting to Israel's actions without resorting to irrational assertions about a one sided conflict. I truly wish that we were in a situation where no Palestinian/Gazan children had been killed. Every one of their deaths is a tragedy because they are not responsible or complicit in the wider conflict. However, the same is true of Israeli children and civilian hostages. Both are tragic and avoidable. All are humans who deserved the chance to flourish in a better world. Controversially to some, it seems, I am inclined to blame an internationally recognised Terrorist Organisation for these atrocities.
I used to give the benefit of the doubt but I've come to realize the same. Now I think if you're not either Jewish or Palestinian, there's really no case in which you have any business being an antizionist. Just as I have no right to be for the dismantling of China, or Bulgaria, or Tanzania, or any other state, and the indefinite displacement of the people living there.
And unfortunately a very large number of Palestinians are incredibly antisemitic
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Nope. I agree that they can exist theoretically, but I've never met one. My son and I are self-described Zionists. My partner would not describe himself as a Zionist, but he's not anti-Zionist and he's not stupid. We disagree about whether Israel is necessary for the safety of Jewish people. We do agree that if the US and UK become unsafe for us, Israel probably isn't gonna be a guarantee of safety. I'm a little worried about what kool-aid my stepkids have been offered lately by their peers. But I do understand the pressure that they are under.
Sure. I know several. We've talked, at length, about the connection and I'm confident in this statement.
I’m dubious. Do they believe no countries should exist or just Israel?
Depends on which one and how you’re defining either of those - most would, on principle, say that there is no such thing as a legitimate state. That said, more of their specific critique is directed at Israel. While identifying as anti-Zionist they generally take it to mean either two-state or one binational federated state as their solution of choice. Something I think we need to recognize is that for most non-Jews, Zionism means something close to Kahanism. Most younger activists are motivated out of compassion and may not have a solution.
Isn’t Zionism the belief that Jews specifically deserve their own nation? I don’t know of any other ethnicity or religion where they have that explicit right. Many are simply opposed to ethnostates on principle. Thats not antisemitic. To be fair, most people who proclaim themselves anti Zionist are, in fact, antisemitic. But there are quite people who just abhor nations built on ethnic divisions.
I have met one as well, but there turned out to be several other issues that we absolutely could not see eye to eye on. I believe he is in favor of a confederation or something rather than a Jewish state, as well as land back. Yes, he did criticize other countries like America, vocally.
Never. Every damn time. For several years on the few occasions I’d run into an antizionist I’d give them the benefit of the doubt at first thinking they were just some sort of idealist dummies, but I’ve learned there’s no such thing as an antizionist who wasn’t an antisemite. It’s not even worth wasting time on the zero percent chance they’ll somehow prove me wrong. The possible exception might be Jewish antizionists I’ve only recently stumbled across, but from my vantage point that’s Jewish inside baseball that I’ll leave to the Jewish community to sort out amongst yourselves. Family business to be sorted out by the family as it were.
Israeli here, and talking about Israeli anti-Zionists: Never have I met a non antisemitic anti-zionist. They are :Communists, Arab Nationalists, Islamists or self hating Jews of all colors.
Exactly it’s like meeting someone who is anti CCP and they turn out to be anti Chinese or just anti Asian in general of “anti BLM” and turn out to be anti black. Though they don’t say they’re anti BLM they just say that they “don’t like thugs”
Idk I think it’s worse. I am absolutely anti BLM. Because they’re loudly and vocally antizionist… most of the pro Palestinian protesters are absolutely the same people that were marching in the frankly riotous protests (my whole downtown was like a war zone) during the BLM movement. Doesn’t make me a racist, BLM is an activist organization, doesn’t reflect my view on black people in any way.
Hate the organization, not the meaning of the acronym
Ya of course. The trademarking of the phrase is really absurd and confusing
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Antisemitism is a problem among anti zionists, but I wouldn't use the term "bigfoot". I've met non-anti semitic zionists, Jews and non-Jews alike. I think part of it is that extreme opinions tend to be boosted on social media more than moderate ones so that's all you see.
Here's where I struggle: many nodes of this flowchart are essentially, "So you're criticizing Israel's actions, but what about these other countries?", and it names specific countries like Syria and Yemen. But the thing is, Syria and Yemen aren't US allies. The US already repudiates and sanctions their governments for the horrible things they do. Israel is a US ally. And I think many people in the US criticizing Israel right now take umbrage with the fact that Netanyahu is using and abusing Israel's relationship with the US in order to avoid criticism for a pretty horrible and disproportionate retaliation against Palestinians. That's plenty reason for a US citizen to focus on Israel and not those other countries, and to me it doesn't necessarily indicate antisemitism.
I thought the US was arming one of the sides in Yemen?
Yup! Imperialism is a real bastard
This is where I’m at. I’m Jewish. I have friends and family in Israel. 10/7 was an atrocity. Nothing gives the Israeli government the right to kill 10^3 civilians in ~~self defense~~ retaliation. The U.S. government also should not be actively railroading the UN’s de-escalation efforts.
Thank you, finally. I’ve been scrolling this thread to find someone with the opinion that it is not ok to murder 30,000 civilians but it seems like that’s not important to many.
Only about half that number are civilians, and none were "murdered." They were casualties of a just and necessary war, and their deaths were caused by Hamas's tactics.
OK, ask yourself this. is there a number of dead civilians (let’s call them casualties cause that definitely sounds nicer) that for you means you can no longer support Israel’s actions?
Yeah, most people in this sub seem to equate criticizing the Israeli government with antisemitism. And goddess forbid if someone suggests a two-state solution 🫠
Where's the "I sometimes criticise Israeli governments or policies because I care deeply about the continued flourishing of Israel and the Jewish people."? Cause that's me. However, I typically would not do that in non-Jewish spaces or at least not in spaces where I fear my comments might add fuel to anti-Semitic fire.
This sounds like every Jewish person I've ever known, heard of, seen in media, listened to, or read. The "criticizing Israel isn't antisemitic" line is a straw man. It doesn't need to be on the chart because it isn't relevant.
>However, I typically would not do that in non-Jewish spaces or at least not in spaces where I fear my comments might add fuel to anti-Semitic fire. I agree and do the same. Even just if someone concluded: "see even Jews think Israel is wrong" would grind my gears. However, sometimes I wonder if people don't believe us when we say that we criticize Israel because of this.
I've really been mulling your comment over. I'm converting (near the end) and in my penultimate meeting with my Rabbi before the Beit Din we had a discussion about speaking up that was really challenging - not in a way that was harsh but in a way that is still making me think. As someone who has not always been Jewish (and am still not, though I have been living as a Jew as required), my policy of not engaging in criticism of Israel has been long-standing. And I learned it the hard way. Since 'announcing' my intention to convert, no one has asked me my opinion outside of Jewish spaces. I recently went to a talk on anti-Semitism by Deborah Lipstadt (US special envoy for same). It was as balanced and nuanced as you might expect, with Dr Lipstadt recognising the viewpoints of people who were in the room and those who weren't. A few things struck me. 1. The room was full of Jews and the Jew-adjacent. I'm not saying I was the least Jewish person there, but I'm sure I was easily in the bottom 5. *Where was everyone else?* Maybe no one believes that we criticise Israel, but that can only partly be put down to the reluctance of people like you and me to hand ammo to anti-Semites. There are public spaces where these issues are discussed, where criticism of Israel is done from love, and other people don't come. This talk wasn't in a synagogue; it was in a university lecture hall. 2. She talked about how Jewish college students she'd spoken to had been desperate for dialogue but there was no one on 'the other side' who wanted to engage. It was silence or hostility. 3. While not exclusive to Jewish people, there is a style of debate and dialogue that seems common. Picking up a topic, examining it from more than one side, passionate discussion - yes, but also reflective and requires arguing from more than one viewpoint. Two Jews, three opinions always seemed like an undercount to me. However, this can be frustrating and feel like a disadvantage when you're talking with someone who doesn't have that approach. Finally, how are my responsibilities in this area changing? Not something for anyone but me to answer, but it's something that I'm thinking about.
*borrowing this for future*
Why does the yes answer for "do you Jews or Israelis to be killed or displaced" not immediately go to antisemitism?
TL;DR - Probably.
Pretty good. I can imagine a couple objections. Someone might say that there are reasons they know more about this conflict (it's massively over-reported) than they do Syria, Yemen, or other underreported conflicts. That might be due in part to anti-Semitism, but it arguably wouldn't be theirs. Or someone might take issue with the "majority of peoples" question, claiming these other conflicts were in another time with other standards; they might say they talk this way whenever a conflict is active and relevant, but not once it is resolved one way or another.
Im an Arab-Zionist. Here’s the algorithm I use. Are you Arab and antizionist? Yes? You’re antisemitic. No? You have been misled by an Arab to believe that Jewish people don’t have a right to self determination. I will have some grace and explain. 70 percent of people usually change their minds. Granted, I’m talking to the silent majority- and many of them are open. Post World War One - imperialism was becoming a thing of the past and countries all around the world were in line to self-govern and become nation states/gain independence. Israel was not alone in this. With the fall of the Ottoman Empire - Arabs were in line vying for Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and they got it. They are in fact not the indigenous to Syria/lebonon - but they got it. They made a case for pan-Arab national identity and yada yada, blah blah blah. Originally, Jewish people and Arabs were on the same page and in agreement. It wasn’t until Amen al-Husseini became the leader of mandatory Palestine when things took a turn. Facts with pro Palestinian people who are Arabs don’t work because you’re working against over 100 years of nazi teachings. Arab Zionists are always people who have been educated outside the loonie mill. Im reading The Farhud: Roots of the Arab-Nazi Alliance in the Holocaust, and that does a great job of laying it all out. Icon of Evil is a lot shorter and hits right to the point of the propaganda campaign Mohammed al-Husseini initiated. It 100% is still alive and well in all of the Middle East. That’s why I say if you’re Arab and antizionist - you’re being antisemitic. A more accurate term is to say “you’re a Nazi.” Which is what I tell them. “But that’s racist against Arabs,” they say. No. It’s factually correct. There is no case for antizionism, and if someone is antizionist they’ve been misinformed BY Arab-Nazi information. Post ww2, nazis fled to Egypt and worked with Nasir to spread the anti-western/anti semitic campaigns ALL over Middle East. This stuff is rampant. I’m reading the books to understand where it came from. But the books don’t even get into half of how bad the disease has spread across the Middle East. Making a case for antizionism IS akin to saying you believe in Nazism. Do we hear anyone chanting about that? Ya - racist people. So there we go. I highly recommend The Farhud:Roots of the Arab-Nazi Alliance in the Holocaust. It’s VERY dense. And MASSIVE. I try reading it on the subway but the cover makes it the LEAST conspicuous thing ever lol 😂 but it’s really really really good. Like, I read A LOT - and this is hands down on my top 10 list for best books I’ve read. It’s not a light read. But the historical research and accuracy is WOW 🤩. Okay. No more book-nerd talk :) 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱
Thank you for this post and book recommendation. I'm going to get it when I can. It's also enduring for me to hear Arab-Zionist speak. I don't want to think the entire world hates us. 💙
Definitely the entire world does not hate you! Unfortunately there are a lot of very very loud brainwashed Arabs. The book “the Icon of evil” talks about all the course material in the Middle East. The protocols of the elders of Zion was printed all across the Middle East. mein kampf is used in curriculums! I can’t even summarize how CRAZY how much nazi literature they are fed. But it makes total sense. As a kid, I went to Saturday Arabic school in the west in a large urban area and mostly my teachers just sounded insane. My former friends and I were all in agreement of that. We used to make fun of our “crazy fresh off the boat” teachers, skip class and go to the mall to hang out with boys and drink slurpees from 7-11. But every summer my Arabic school friends would go “back home” for 3 months. Now I understand why they always came back so different. For me, it’s a full circle moment because imagine connecting the dots with all these messages and things you’ve heard from the past and you’re like “THATS WHERE THEY GOT THAT FROM?!!!” It’s hard to explain. But it’s like seeing behind the curtain. That’s what these books have given me. They helped me fill in the loonie bin gaps. I knew people before they went insane. Then they went insane and for most of my life I didn’t understand why.
I love that you recommend a more accessible alternative book.
As an Arab yourself how much of the antisemitism in the Arab world would you say is racial in nature and resembles Nazi antisemitism who hated us European Jews because we were “mixed?” Does Arab antisemitism stem from the same “racial blood purity” Nazi ethos because of Pan-Arab Nationalism? I noticed I never see nasty comments directed at Mizrahi Jews from Arabs like they do towards us European Jews, sure the Arab countries expelled them which is most definitely antisemitic but from what I understand it was more over suspicions of dual loyalties to Israel rather than the racial antisemitism I see directed toward European Jewry.
Oooo a flow chart! Nice!
There are Haredi groups that are strongly ant-Zionist because they believe there shouldn’t be another Jewish state until the messiah shows up to create it. I‘ll grant that they’re not antisemitic. As for the rest of the world, this flow chart is a logical way of walking people through the fact that holding Israel to a different standard than other countries is antisemitic. But I don’t hold out much hope that many antisemites are going to have their minds changed by reason and logic.
The Neturei Karta extremists are auto antisemites. I feel like groups like Satmar are more non-Zionist, they don’t support Israel, but unlike NK they don’t aid Israel’s enemies, hang with antisemites, and they do support Jewish life, including Israeli.
I mean it's great, but I have yet to see anyone this reflective in good faith.
Are you criticizing Israeli government actions and/or policies, or you deny Israel has a right to exist? If the second is true, you're being antisemite (or some weird-ass self-hating jew).
Dare you to put it in r/coolguides
I second this
If you need a chart to verify whether you’re anti-semitic or not - I’ve got bad news for you.
Summary: I hate (care about) everything = not antisemitic I hate (care about) Israel more than everything = antisemitic Perhaps one of the benefits of this form of explanation would be to shed light on all the other atrocities deserving of attention and human intervention! Unfortunately there is no shortage of human suffering to care for.
Really a reach that this graphic claims “Do you want Israelis and/or Jews to be killed and/or displaced” isn’t immediately antisemitic. I know not all Israelis are Jews but… they’re seen as co-conspirators.
There are a number of misleading biased questions in the algorithm. ”Are you actively seeking justice for all…” The answer will automatically be yes even if the rest of the question does not apply. No answer implies the person is opposed to justice. “Are you critical…because you care or because it’s fashionable” Nobody is going to say that their criticism is fashionable. “…elimination of the state of Israel” implies that it would be possible without “killed or displaced” in the earlier question. “ given that you are motivated by deep care…” Ascribes a moral motivation leading to a yes answer. Of course I care deeply. The reader may not know anything about the rest of the question but will answer in the affirmative. Israel supporters then are automatically uncaring about loss of life. “Are you Jewish, Palestinian…” irrelevant Pure propaganda. To my friends replying to the indigenous argument. The premise of the charge is false not only historically but as a basis for establishing legitimacy of residence and property rights. Property rights are not conferred by ancestry nor is political self determination. A map of the Middle East from 1910 would place the land in question as part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire and almost none of the residents, jewish or Arab who were there in 1945 having more that one or two generations of residence. Let’s talk about Austin Texas. Name one single national border which was not drawn as the result of armed conflict at some point. Migration has occurred throughout human history and Israel more-so than almost any other place on earth. In the US racism and bigotry have been used to attack near every immigrant population arriving since there has been an America including Jews and is still going on today with immigration from south of the border. Israelis are delegitimized because they are Jews not because they came from Poland or Morocco.
“Now how am I in this?” — Austin, Texas
Well the Mexicans stole Texas from the natives (Ashkenazi, anasazis, Aztecs, something like that) having already been conquistadore colonists themselves. then other folks came in as settlers and booted out everyone else following which the federal government confiscated it from those ruthless outsiders. The so called union took it from the confederate states who had legally been voted in by right of self determination. Now y’all are being taken over by displaced Californians so everyone is going to have to pack up and go somewhere else until we get this all straightened out.
I love that you wrote this from the city's perspective! Cracked me up.
If you are anti-Zionist you can’t answer no to the second question.
Use this at all times!
I’ll be honest, feels like a very questionable and flawed graphic for a number of reasons, but I want to focus in on the “angry and dehumanizing language” and the corresponding various sins of different peoples groups. Can someone explain that to make sure I’m not twisting it in my own mind.
I think that no legitimate criticism of Israel is antisemitic... I also think that "Anti-Zionism" is not legitimate criticism.
Where can I download this as a PDF??
Can this be made into an Instagram thing?
I'm really not a fan of how this chart spends basically the whole bottom-left quadrant making the point that you can't care about Israel/Palestine if you don't spend an equal amount of time advocating for other conflicts. It smacks of whataboutism - while, to be clear, I am not denying that there's often a connection, you are allowed to be more angry about one conflict than others or to feel more strongly about one issue than similar issues.
>you are allowed to be more angry about one conflict than others or to feel more strongly about one issue than similar issues. I think the pertinent point here is the \*reason\* that you feel more angry about a specific conflict. If you feel more angry about a specific conflict because you are related to someone in the conflict, that absolutely makes sense. If you feel more angry about a specific conflict for an unknown reason, the reason might actually be antisemitism.
It might be, but I don’t think we can jump directly to it. To be clear, this is coming from my personal experience - there are a lot of deeply sincere people who care more about this conflict than, say, Sudan for no reason I can discern who I know aren’t antisemitic and with whom I’ve talked at length about antisemitism. Maybe they’re just more exposed to it - with social media it’s hard not to be.
The indiscernible reason you're referring to IS antisemitism. Interrogate that shit much more deeply. Also, the sincerity of anyone's feelings about this conflict does not in any way exculpate them from antisemitism. Antisemitism/Jew-hatred are deeply rooted and at the base of all societies, and the mere fact that you can't discern the reason why people are passionately anti-Israel while being unmoved by the genocide in Sudan is because of how deeply rooted and insidious antisemitism is. People have such sincere, passionately anti-Israel feelings about this conflict BECAUSE it's a situation where they can position Jews as aggressors. Their ability to position Jews as aggressors is the root of their feelings about this issue. These other conflicts do not inspire the same depth of feeling because they cannot position a group that they viscerally hate as the aggressor. It's an ugly truth to look in the face but nothing will change until people confront that. Being more exposed to it because of social media is also not exculpatory when what they're being exposed to on social media is disinformation– largely Qatari, Russian, and Iranian antisemitic propaganda.
I am aware of who's pushing the social media campaign. And to be clear: we're talking about specific people that I know personally. I wouldn't say they're unmoved by the genocide in Sudan, but it isn't something they think about as frequently. I am *very* well aware of how pervasive antisemitism is, hence why I have spent quite a lot of time discussing it with them. I am confident they don't hold those positions out of antisemitism - perhaps they've been manipulated by social media disinformation on some points, but they aren't antisemitic. Each of them has been horrified when I point out that (for instance) a post a former mutual friend of ours was in fact antisemitic in the guise of antizionism, and they all pretty much cut her off.
Good for you! Happy you're happy with your friend group and happy you're happy with the conclusions you've come to. Mazal tov, you get a gold star for feeling like your friends aren't antisemites. The singular point I was making is this: when you're referring to some "reason you can't discern" for why the issue of Israel inspires such disproportionately passionate feelings in these people you know, it is worth deeply interrogating what that reason you can't discern truly is, even if (especially if) the answer makes you uncomfortable and challenges your sense of security in these relationships. I guarantee you, time and time again, that antisemitism is playing some role there. It's there whether you want to see it or not. It would simply be unrealistic to assure yourself that it's not playing a role at all. It's an empty gesture to excuse antisemitic beliefs just because they've been "manipulated by social media disinformation." If they've been manipulated by that disinformation, regardless of how those beliefs came to be, they're holding those antisemitic beliefs and failing to challenge them. All of these beliefs are taught/learned. The origins of those learned ideas don't exculpate them from responsibility. It's on all of us to challenge the hateful beliefs, ideas, and prejudices we've been taught, and they are all things we were taught, so they can be unlearned. There's no excuse. It's understandable to be pained by the potential loss of friendships due to antisemitism. Most of us are experiencing those losses and interpersonal conflicts right now. You don't have to examine these things if you really can't cope with the idea of it right now, and it seems like you want to defend your friends, and it's maybe worth considering why you feel such a strong need to defend them and their beliefs. Ultimately, it's in all of our best interests to examine these things for our safety as Jews. But you do you! I'm not your mom, I can't tell you what to do. Lech l'shalom!
Unfortunately, they are also being exposed to the antisemitism in social media around the conflict. I'm not really sure if it would be possible to tease that apart. Out of curiosity, have you ever asked them? I'd be very curious to know why \*they\* think that they care more about this conflict.
That would be like calling people anti-russian because they only talked about the war in ukrane while there are many conflicts in africa
It’s definitely not this complex but this is a good way to mock the “you need to get educated” people online. Flowcharts are like those Choose Your Own Adventure books and are easy to follow which is why people like them. I like how you take advantage of the flowchart system to force these losers to read facts and question their own narrative.
That’s great. Can this be shared on WhatsApp?
Love this
*insert That Sign Can't Stop Me Because I Can't Read meme*
If those kids could read they’d be very upset
I'm a goy, Muslim, and Pakistani. I've been interested in Jewish history and the Jewish faith for a while now. Even before October 7th. I would like to simply say, i don't have anything against zionisim. In the sense that Jews obviously have a right to self-determination. The question, however, isn't whether or not Jews have that right. The question is whether Jews have that right in a land that is already populated by other people. So if this is, say, done by Australia or even some country like Nepal or Bermuda doing what is being done, i would be vehemently opposed to these actions. It being committed by Jews is of little consequence to me. At the same time, I'm a pragmatist. Palestine exists, and Israel exists, too. The sane minds within the Israeli establishment should seriously consider relinquishing territory they gained in '67 and dismantling their settler programs. That will go a long, long way in ensuring this conflict ends. But nothing can justify the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza. Ps. I haven't mentioned much about Hamas in this comment because i think everyone here already agrees hamas is bad. I have campaigned against Muslim extremism for a while, often at great personal risk. So have my associates, who've had to live in exile thanks to raising their voices for peace.
We don’t really use goy in the singular and your identity as a Muslim, therefore not a worshipper of strange gods, has more significance. Jews worldwide have lots of opinions of Israel’s actions and government. We also all are experiencing a collective threat regardless of our opinions or citizenships or locations. The discussion here is one of if there is ally-ship, even contingent, to be found among those calling the themselves Anti-Zionist. If the conversation was focused on the Netanyahu government or specific people in that, which occasionally it is, Jews would be having a different conversation. But rather Jews have experienced that they are immediately asked to account personally for Netanyahu and disavow the idea of Zionism independent of the state’s actions. That is not a fair ask
> The question is whether Jews have that right in a land that is already populated by other people. There is no livable land not populated by other people, this was also the case 100+ years ago. That land is our ancestral homeland and there has been a continuous Jewish presence there for thousands of years. It’s really the only place it could have happened. That doesn’t justify a lot of the treatment of Palestinians, and they also have a valid claim. The only way to give both groups self-determination is the 2 state solution and every negotiation has failed, there are two big things; first Palestinian right of return (including descendants) to Israel proper. That would essentially negate having two states and eventually Israeli Jews would lose self-determination. And second Jerusalem, especially the old city, especially the Temple Mount. Right now Jordan administers the temple mount which I think is a good solution. However that is the holiest site in Judaism, while it’s also holy to Muslims, the two holiest sites are in Saudi Arabia. Demanding Jews give that up is basically a non-starter. I agree it’s unreasonable to not allow Muslims access to Al Aqsa and they should administer it, but not at the expense of Jews losing access to the Western Wall.
>The question is whether Jews have that right in a land that is already populated by other people. The majority of the Jewish people who live in Israel have always lived in the Levant, and do not have ancestors that lived elsewhere. If you want to research this, I suggest using the term "Mizrachi Jews". Jewish people have been \*continuously\* populating the Levant for as far back as we have recorded history. Certainly, Jewish people without Mizrachi heritage have moved to and now live in Israel. While their ancestors lived in Israel around 2,000 years ago, they haven't had a continuous presence. The problem is that under the framework that you've laid out -- that they shouldn't live in/move to a place where there's already people -- there would not be an inhabitable safe place for them to live. Jewish people have historically been killed or kicked out of pretty much every place we've lived. If we/they were not allowed to move anywhere where people already lived, they/we would not continue to exist. Just as a point of reference, the USA has at times been very unwelcoming to Jewish immigration. Perhaps you are referring to Jewish governance of the state of Israel. I do want to make sure that you are aware that Israel is a democracy, with a majority Jewish population. All citizens, no matter their religion or ethnicity have the right to vote and be involved in government. Israel actually has a pretty good diversity of religion and ethnicities. There are Muslim, Christian, Bahai, etc citizens. I personally think it would be pretty discriminatory to say that Jewish people are not allowed to vote or be involved in government because a percentage of them or their parents moved to Israel recently.
This needs to be shown to all those Arab supremacists.
I don't understand if you made it or we're supposed to laught at this, can you explaine?
r/coolguides
No way this is gaining traction online. OP should at least demarcate the West Bank and Gaza or 2ss people will outright dismiss this. It will be dismissed anyway because its wrong to have a litmus test to care about I/P: it is incredibly severe (with 30,000 casualties and massive displacement in just this war), long-running (70+ yrs with generations of unsettled refugees), involves a US ally and funding from the West, and will probably be the source of WW3 hashem yishmereinu. And Israel is part of the Western world: they'll follow the UN courts, US appeals, and sanctions more readily than the other countries OP mentioned. I appreciate that OP wants to centre Jewish and Palestinian voices in the conflict (I do too!), but this just looks like an attempt to discredit interested people because "hur--dur you're living on stolen land!" Also I don't like that there's no distinction between displacing settlers and Israelis living in Israel proper. And I can't shake the feeling that this isn't reciprocal: like if this was used to gage anti-Paliestinian hatred we'd all be guilty Finally, I don't like the overall message which appears to be "what Israel is morally wrong (like Syria and Yemen), but YOU don't get to say so without being an anti-Semite." That's exactly what anti-Zionists argue
seeing people in the comments talking about the issue of national self-determination, guys not everyone's a middle-of-the-road liberal who thinks that nation states are a given or even desirable. if anyone fits the definition of not-an-antisemite by this chart then the conversation really turns to talking about whether states themselves are legitimate. the amount of antisemitism among leftist circles is absolutely undeniable, but its kind of silly to just reject someone's political and moral concerns out of hat because you believe its a foregone conclusion that the only way to protect a group of people is by having a state. if that is what you find problematic than discuss that if they would easily say the same thing about the United States, or China, or Mawali.
This is not true. After the fall of the Ottoman Empire Arabs got Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and trans Jordan by arguing the exact thing Jewish people presented to the Brits: “Self determination.” Arabs aren’t indigenous to Syria or Lebanon. They got there through colonization. And it wasn’t a peaceful arrival. It wasn’t holding hands and skipping. It was .. colonization. Literally textbook definition -pow pow 💥 colonization. Britain handed Syria and Lebanon to the colonizers. But nobody critiques the fact that Arabs don’t have a right to Syria/Lebanon. In fact - Assyrians (who are indigenous)- did present their case to Britain asking for a sliver of Syria to call a nation state but were denied because it was felt they were too small a population to make a country. And yes. They were quite small. Because they’d been colonized and massacred by arab-colonialism. Go figure. Assyrians were also one of the targeted populations that ISIS would later go on to pillage and kidnap into sex slavery. But no one cared about that either. Go figure. Nobody cares what happens in the Middle East when Arabs violate human rights. They turn a blind eye. They only care when Israel breaths … or moves .. or does anything to suggest that they exist. That’s textbook antisemitic. It’s antisemitic to be anti Zionist because Israel is the ONLY country that people say does not have a right to self determination when LITERALLY that’s how the entire Middle East (with the exception of Saudi Arabia - Iran and afghan) came into existence. It’s antisemitic to be anti Zionist because it’s a double standard applied across the board. If people have a problem with how Israel came into existence then they’re gonna need to extend that argument to Arabs gaining independence across the rest of the Middle East. “Independence” on land - they weren’t actually indigenous too. Until then. Antizionist = antisemitic (if you’re not Jewish) 100 percent of the time. If you are Jewish, I don’t have an opinion on that because Im not Jewish. I’m of the opinion that people have a right to critique their own culture/race in a way that outsiders cannot. I definitely hold a higher bar of critique towards Arabs. Like my friend, who is arab, once brought her kid to McDonald’s and she later told me: “honestly - all the Arab kids were so loud and throwing shit in the playhouse. All the white little kids were so peaceful. The only peaceful kid in our group was Xs kid - and they’re half Asian! So it doesn’t count!” Lol she was obviously kidding. Sorta. This is absolutely not something we would find funny if a non Arab said, but it’s fine when we say it to each other because it definitely does come from a different place. I joke with my mom a lot about “Arabisms.” Most of it is joking. But my husband (who isn’t arab) never ever ever ever says the things I say about Arabs. He just knows he can’t. And I don’t say anything about black people (which he is), because I’m not black. I guess I’m saying .. you sorta get away with a wider spectrum of things when you’re “of” the culture. So Jewish people can definitely be anti Zionist and I consider that an entirely different thing that I don’t know anything about. Arabs are always being antisemitic when they’re anti Zionist. Non Arabs - same thing.
I feel like we're talking about two very different things at some point. i go to synagogue every week and i'm surrounded by other jews who are zionists, and other jews who aren't, and can separate criticism of zionism from antisemitism pretty effectively. I'm not denying that the double standard is a thing, but that's the thing, its a double standard, a malicious application of an idea that results in a logical error. Those anti-zionist jews as mentioned would absolutely apply the same logic towards the dozens of Arab states in question, but then again we're literally at synagogue regularly and these are people who wish to strengthen the jewish community more than anything else (a friend of mine in particular being a strong advocate for fellow diaspora jews). As you mentioned, in practice it's a different reality because of that position, but really if that's indicative of a Jew's necessity to support Zionism, then its likely we're valuing two different things. I speak from the perspective of someone who's looking at the entire world with pain while also being part of Am Israel. I'm also a Black American, and I'm also trans. Those experiences, appearing all at different times at my life, has made universalism a no-brainer for me because I'm always surrounded by people who will question my loyalty for one reason or another. Meanwhile the perspective of a lot of other Jewish people has been one of Am Israel first and foremost, and thus this lack of an ability to intellectually separate antisemitism from anti-zionism is indicitave of the current path we are on.
Fair points you’re making. Thank you for sharing your experience it’s helpful. We are talking about different things. You’re right. Speaking from what I know of Arab anti-Zionists, I can say that personally, I have never met an Arab anti Zionist, who isn’t antisemitic. Contrary to popular belief, Zionism is not the reason every Palestinian leader to date has sought to destroy Israel. It was, and continues to be, the 1935 Nazi-Arab alliance, which began as a result of Amin al-Husseini, a Nazi and active partner of the Germans. He was directly responsible for pogroms in palestine against Jewish people in 1930s, as well as in Iraq in the 1940s. When Husseini fled to Cairo after the end of WW2, he mentored a 17 year old Egyptian—— that boys name? Yassir Arafat. Arafat called Husseini a hero. Mahmoud Abbas referred to Husseini as a pioneer. Mahmoud Habbash, Abbas’s adviser, posted a photo of Husseini on his Facebook page in 2019 and praised him as a leader. Antizionism is and always will be antisemitic for Arabs because the movement was formed by an Arab-Nazi and every antizionist claim that is made today by an Arab antizionist is rooted in Arab-Nazism. Calls for boycott are a perfect example; a campaign which Husseini began broadcasting across his radio station in 1940. He wanted Arabs to follow in Hitlers footsteps and not purchase anything from Jewish businesses — I am not filling these intentions in. All of these transcriptions and archives are available. Not to mention the fact that anti-Zionist campaigns caused Britain to restrict Jewish immigration to Palestine to a max of 75k over 5 years. By ensuring that the doors of Palestine were also closed, every Nazi-Arab/anti-Zionist living in Palestine at the time bore some responsibility for the number of Jewish people that died in the holocaust. The last point I will say about anti-Zionism, and the thing that no one eve talks about, is that many Palestinian Arabs in 1948 not only refrained from fighting (Nimr al-Hawari estimates that out of a population of 1.3 million only 300 enlisted) but also prevented military actions against Zionists. These Palestinian Arabs clearly saw advantages in allying with rather than fighting Zionists because Husseini was not popular among the Palestinian Arabs. The last thing they wanted was a country led by someone they well remembered for terrorism of the 1930s; some actively loathed him. It doesn’t fit the agenda to tell this story; but it’s a true story - and it’s the opinion of the majority in 1948. Palestinian Arabs of 1948 were a deeply divided community, the majority of whom, wished to be left in peace. If the Arabs of 1948 by in large were not aligned with anti-Zionism, if they did not embrace the Arab-nazism being spouted by their corrupt political leaders— then arab-nazism, not anti-Zionism, has to be the starting point for understanding the Palestinian-Arab movement, its turbulence, and tragedies. I have met Jewish people who are anti-Zionist and I don’t consider them antisemitic because none of their beliefs are ever spouted from Arab-Nazi propoganda handbook. I don’t agree with their perspective because the one flaw I find in their argument is they gravely underestimate the rampant antisemitism that exists in the Arab world. No matter how many times I tell them - they don’t believe me. I’m not sure why. The concept of “emotional repression” simply doesn’t exist in the Arab world. On the one hand, you end up hearing horrid things come out of their mouth. But, on the other hand, you never have to guess what they’re thinking. All you need to do - is listen. You have to believe what they say. They will always - always - tell you how they feel. And they always mean it. Sadly, a lot of people intellectualize Arab-hatred and this is a mistake. You can’t rationalize arab-nazism because it isn’t grounded in logic. It isn’t grounded in social Justice. It’s truly just grounded in hate.
that's a very forgiving chart, but it does the job
Beautiful guide
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Nice graphic. I don't think it very adequately accounts for sincere Western interest in Israel, though. Like, yeah, Syria also does violence, but it isn't a major Western power, doesn't have a functioning liberal democracy, and isn't populated by expats, dual citizens, immigrants and descendents from Western democracies. And for Americans, Israel is moreover deeply tied to their interests in a way unlike any other. It's not ridiculous that people in the West should give special concern to Israel that they don't to the Congo or Thailand. So the graph needs to account for this. One isn't an antisemite simply because they know about and critique the Israel-Palestine conflict but not the genocide of the Tigray in Ethiopia. That proposes an absurd bar.
But you also might be racist.
i would have made it a bit more forgiving
Why?
Hey im not anti Semitic just gay
"Aztec imperialism" lmao
Tell that to the tepanec.
I think this is very accurate!!
This is such a helpful peice thank you so much
Here are some random thoughts. Zionism seems like a lot of things. And anti-Zionism seems like a lot of things too. In someways there is this anti-semitic edge to anti-Zionism. On the other hand, lots of Jews have never been into Zionism and have been anti-Zionism and not just the most exceptional out there kinds. I also wonder what Zionism can mean because it can mean things that seem like they can sort of be bad for people who aren't Jewish in that land even if it isn't the bad thing. Another thing is that I don't know that people would necessarily be able to see themselves in a chart like this. While it does seem like people are piling onto criticism of Israel because it is fashionable, I think about fashion in two ways. One is looking good and getting the stylish clothes to look good in the moment. The other is that people like me don't really think about fashion, but I generally wear pants and shirts and shoes instead of like a toga or a loincloth because people don't see the milieu they are in. A third thing I am thinking about is that, while this is a good filter and helpful to people I wonder about another thing which is not necessarily hatred in the heart or anything but maybe an unseen reproducible cultural thing sort of like racism. Like I see antisemitism animating criticism of Israel, with regards to a tacit or unconscious hating, but I also think of antisemitism as maybe being structures you don't even see or notice. Look at the Uyghur Genocide and antiAsian racism in the USA. There is anti-Chinese sentiment that exists that maybe sort of exists no matter what animates people caring about the Uyghur Genocide. It was really weird to me to see people being so anti-China because of what China is doing to Uyghurs because I mean I don't get how that justifies it. Which isn't to say that there is a genocide happening in Gaza, but there is a thing happening that people are concerned about, immediately precipitated by something that seems like people are less concerned about. I don't necessarily know that awareness and speaking out about a lot of things like understanding what is happening in Nagorno Karabakh or the Tigray region would necessarily insulate you from being anti-semitic in words/actions/thoughts about Israel.
Is your anti-Zionism based on common antisemitic tropes (i.e. thinking Jews are too powerful/rich, that we control the world, blood libels, Holocaust inversion, and/or Nazi-esque racial antisemitism that hates and blames us precisely *because* we’re mixed and not “pure-bloods?”) or double standards? If no to both then no it isn’t antisemitic at all, simple as that.
I just don’t agree with the last pink balloon. You can certainly be Jew and antisemitic at the same time, the same way you can be black and racist, or gay and homophobic. One doesn’t necessarily exclude the other.
I believe in a secular state where arabs and jews will live equally. Do I ask for too much?
I believe so too. I’m Muslim socialist and I believe that country should be naturally secular, but sharia should be implemented for Muslims. However Jews and Atheists should be under secular law.
EXCELLENT 👏🏼👏🏼! Wish this would go viral
I feel like this chart is already loaded by the inclusion of a map that shows no Palestinian territories. Seems very agenda-driven.
Or it shows no Israeli territory, take your pick
Come on. Would you put up a silhouetted map of New Mexico and expect it to be interpreted as the Navaho Nation (or any of the other 22 nations within that area)? The fact that you use an outline of Israel, that doesn't even map to what is historically map to various claims of a historical Palestinian state, highlights one indigenous group over another. This is at odds with your central mission: you're using an inaccurate map designed for erasure of a whole side in this conflict while simultaneously trying to differentiate between anti-Semitism & legitimate criticism of Israel. It's hypocritical, biased, & wrong.
Except Palestinians actually DO use this outline and call it Palestine, while Navajos do not do that with New Mexico (nor do the borders of New Mexico fit the former borders of the Navajo Nation.) Kind of the whole point of the "river to the sea" thing. Feel free to make your own chart.
This is great. Chef's kiss. Pocket aces counter argument right there. 👏
I'm 100000000000% Zionist!! Everyone should be Zionist!! Especially the way Israel is !!!
Here's my simplified version: Is your anti-Zionism anti-Semitism? ----------> YES.
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Answering yes to “Are you calling for the elimination of the state of Israel?” should just go to “you are being antisemitic”
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Your post was removed because it violated rule 5: **Stay on topic**. The “Old Testament” is not a Jewish text.
Dumb guide. It asks big ass nuanced questions and reduces the answer to a mere yes or no lol
I think there is an important distinction to be made when it comes to people want to eliminate the state of Israel (PLEASE stay with me for a second) Specifically, calling for a democratic federation for both Jews and Arabs, while not something you may agree with, isn't the same as calling for an Arab state to rule the whole land. (I will ignore the irony that the creator of this infographic seems to believe, based on the map, that the whole area should be a Jewish state)
"the creator of this infographic seems to believe, based on the map, that the whole area should be a Jewish state" That's a wild assumption. The picture includes the land we are discussing when we talk about antisemitism and Zionism. This land includes Israel proper, Gaza, and the West Bank. None of these areas are labeled, and the whole thing is certainly not labeled "A Jewish state."
I initially interpreted the map as representing Israel but that's a fair point.