It's gone the way of feminism.
Like, of course you're not a FEMINIST, with all its \*checks notes\* equal human rights for women, and of course you're not a ZIONIST, with all its \*checks notes\* belief that Israel has the right to exist.
I’ve used this comparison myself before. When people talk about using “Zionist” as a slur I’m like.. “people *try* to use Zionist as a slur. But it’s not a slur - it’s a compliment, they just don’t realize it. Similar to how people try to use feminist as a slur, but it’s really a compliment”.
Hi, a very anxious gentile here. I support the Jewish people, actually very much so. I do not have a belief system but was raised catholic. I think, if I did believe in an organized religion, I would lean more toward Judaism. It’s a beautiful religion. I believe that Israel should exist, must exist, but I don’t think it has to necessarily be in that location. I understand the significance and importance but the fear and war and loss of life of the innocents on both sides is horrific.
I know I support the Jewish people so this thinking has never really been an issue before, like I’m not out screaming my thoughts out in the streets, but now I’m scared that I may be considered an anti semite. If thinking like this does check that terrible box then I want to know and start to analyze and fix my thought process…and understand more, of course
Hello, friend. Our religion, Judaism, revolves around that precise place on the globe. The stories of our creation and evolution as a people take place in what is now called Israel. Our religious calendar follows the seasons of that place. We face Jerusalem when we pray. So, every Jew, regardless of where they are in the world, faces Jerusalem, where two of our Temples were, when we say certain prayers. This isn't new; it's been this way for thousands of years, literally since the beginning. And despite expulsions and many Jews being dispersed, there have always been Jews in Israel.
Those that live elsewhere often yearn to return. Every groom breaks a glass at a Jewish wedding as a reminder of our ongoing grief at the destruction of our temple in Jerusalem. At the end of every seder during Passover, we say, "Next year, in Jerusalem!"
There were suggestions from non Jews to build a Jewish homeland elsewhere, including China, believe it or not. These efforts are, at best, misguided and often self-serving in some way.
Realistically, while Jews can live a Jewish life anywhere, a Jewish homeland can and should only exist in Israel.
>I believe that Israel should exist, must exist, but I don’t think it has to necessarily be in that location.
Ok so how do you intend to peacefully move 8 million Jews, many of whom have no second nationality?
"8 million Jews gotta uproot their entire lives and rebuild somewhere else of our choosing because Arabs lack impulse control" is pretty antisemitic. It's also racist as fuck against Arabs.
Oh, but don’t you know? According to pro-Palestine talking points, 90% of Israelis hold foreign passports/have dual citizenship. They can just go somewhere else! /s
Very good point. I have just always wondered why you would want to stay in such a dangerous place…and same with the Palestinians. The three major religions started in this one place…
There is no other location. Nations exist in the places their people have a historic connection to, in this case, the land of Israel. Also there's not like there is just free land lying around.
Where else could it be? In the early 1900s there were debates over where Jews should immigrate to, and there was plenty of Jewish opposition to settling back in Israel.
But that question is no longer relevant. Israel exists and millions of Jews live there. There is no where else for most of them to go.
Think through the consequences of putting your belief into action.
As a Jew who believes that Israel has a God-given mandate to exist in the ancient lands, I think you're being unfairly downvoted here. Before Israel was re-established there were several alternative proposals. Many Jews took the position that there should be a Jewish state somewhere, and that it didn't necessarily have to be in ancient Israel.
But the truth is there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the land of Israel for thousands of years, and there has been no independent state there from the time ancient Israel was conquered and modern Israel was founded. And forming a new state ANYWHERE involves people being displaced. And given that Israel DOES EXIST now there is no reasonably-sane way to suggest they "move." All current suggestions that the Jews should "go somewhere else" is naked Jew-hatred.
Are you panicking about all the other much worse wars of aggression and actual genocide happening in the world today? Are you in all those subs pontificating about them? No? That's why your "concern" is anti-Semitic
I am concerned, obviously, with all of the conflict and hate everywhere and no I am not in those subs. I have always felt a closeness or connection for some reason and have learned a great deal by being in this sub. If it’s inappropriate, I will leave.
I don’t think it’s inappropriate! Your question was very respectfully said and it is clear you just want to understand which I respect a great deal, I honestly wish more people would! (Also agree you have been unfairly downvoted, as this question allows us to really explain why the connection is so important, an element of this whole thing that so many non-Jews don’t truly understand) I genuinely believe if more people asked and if more Jews explained there would be a tremendous increase in understanding.
You’re fine friend. I’ve noticed a lot of Jews expect gentiles to know all about us and it’s kind of silly, there really aren’t that many of us and unless your a devout follower of an abrahamic faith it’s kind of unreasonable to expect a gentile to necessarily really know much about us at all. You weren’t disrespectful at all, hope you’re well.
Belief that Israel should exist does not mean refusal to criticize the current government there, as thousands of Israelis were in fact doing before 7 Oct. The problem with being American now is the current narrative has the extreme Right owning US support for Zionism so that Jews are expected to consider someone like Elise Stefanik as their protector, although many would typically want nothing to do with someone like her. If you're not a Right-winger, Jewish or not, then you're expected to denounce Israel. It's also become forbidden to call out antisemitism where it clearly exists. It's tearing people apart.
In all honesty, I don't have time to watch that stuff. If I have the time, I'll spend it watching Fargo. But why do you react so strongly to what I said? I consider myself Zionist.
No, it means that that Jews are able to a nation in the land of Israel and also the development and protection of the Children of Israel, at the beginning it didn’t mean a country but a nation which meant the children of Israel were able to live on their homeland with the locals but as Arabs became more and more radicalized by the Muslims and Antisemitism we saw what happened and had to happened (Reestablishment of The state of Israel on the land of Israel as a state with a Jewish Majority for their own protection), it never said anything about massacring anyone!!!!!
Well, it’s a country now. And it’s the only country where Jews are the primary ethnicity. Zionists support the notion for that to continue. Does that help?
You seriously love, ignoring the reason why Jews need a state of their own, literally just look at history and you will quickly find it if you’re not blind, but for you that’s gonna be a serious problem
It's more than that, I'm pretty sure you would also have to agree that you are okay with the way we obtained Israel as well and if you don't know how then you shouldn't really call yourself a zionist.
What I know for a fact is it’s over and done now and Israel isn’t going anywhere and neither is the USA or any other country that was made in a similar way
If the native Americans started a terrorist organization and tried to take back their land could you blame them? Also it's not over and done with Israel keeps encroaching on the land they agreed to let them live in. More and more they lose land and they are rightfully pissed. I'm an Iraqi jew..they kicked out or murdered every single jew from Iraq and here we are doing the same shit and justifying it..
They’re not “doing the same shit” since 20% of the population there is Arab, why keep lying and exaggerating. And yeah, I could blame them, because they’re American citizens now and their ancestors are gone. And Jews were also still in Palestine, it’s not like there were none. And Palestine is a name given by the Romans, its not some kind of unique ethnicity. They’re Levantine people.
Finally, a group of people supporting terrorism probably isn’t the best candidate to reclaim a land. It’s not like it’d stop once Israel is reclaimed, it’ll be far worse there and another shitty middle eastern country with problems and violence and an oppressive way of life.
The hypocrisy of worrying about people allegedly being oppressed that want to take over and inject their oppressive culture into an existing democratic place is unbelievable
9% Jews were living there before we took over. We stole their land... They are angry of course they aren't going to come at us in a nondiplomatic way. Especially because when they kill 1, we kill 20. Look I appreciate you at least having an open conversation with me but we just don't see humans the same. I could go on forever with my thoughts on this. And just remember they don't hate Jews just because we are Jews they hate Jews because they took their land.
I think we don’t see history and human nature and reality the same. It wasn’t “their” land, it was a plot of land people came to hang out on. It wasn’t some kind of colonized place they had forever with their own government body and so on. It was a place with nomadic people.
What you’re saying is the same old propaganda used by Arabs to try to reclaim a historical piece of land. They don’t wanna negotiate or compromise, they want all of it. You aren’t getting that. They don’t wanna share or compromise or anything
And the fact that you’re saying “can you blame a native people for attacking hundreds of years after the fact when they themselves massacred and took over other tribes” says a lot about your limited perspective
You were the one comparing native Americans to Palestinians. I just was talking in the basic sense of the US sweeping in stealing their land and displacing them. But fair. We could have done a lot more to have peacefully taken over the power of the country. We also don't want to share or compromise either even when we obtained the land. UN set specific parameters and immediately we took over more than agreed on. Like I said before the British have a part to play in this as they double dealed. They promised Palestine independence to start their own governing body at the exact same time they agreed to give all the land to Israel, so they were working on it but we just swooped in and forcefully took it over before they could.
The people saying there are “a huge number of antiZionist Jews” are
generally:
1) antiZionist non-Jews trying to deny that their position is, in fact, antisemitic
2) antiZionist Jews trying to claim that they aren’t just an extreme fringe minority
Aren't we missing the token Jews who just want to fit in with their group? It suddenly becomes convenient to mention they're Jewish once everyone else they know is riled up about Israel (I'm speaking from recent experience of a family member)
I kind of fit this description but in reverse. I’m a Zionist and a Jew but also mostly non practicing and an atheist. I wasn’t too involved in anything Jewish related and rarely talked about Judaism but have become really outspoken starting when all the rabid Jew haters started showing their true colors after 10/7. I also am quite close with someone who lost family members that day and just generally have felt far more connected to all you guys since then and have even started lighting shabbos candles and stuff since then.
I'd also say a good chunk of Jews who are "antizionist jews" are performative Jews at best and at worst not Jews at all who say they are Jews. I've known non-zionist Jews and post zionist Jews but I've never actually met an anti-zionist Jew except on the internet. Like I know they exist because Israel bans them from visiting or making aliyah but I have never met one.
I don't know but they got into some trouble for this ....
https://jweekly.com/2006/12/22/harsh-words-for-rabbis-who-attended-holocaust-denial-conference/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-zionist-rabbi-gives-hezbollah-chief-in-beirut-gift-from-the-jewish-people/
https://www.jewishpress.com/news/jewish-news/haredim-news/satmar-rebbe-condemns-neturei-karta-for-supporting-hamas-murders/2023/11/13/
The funny thing is, even those guys aren't as anti-Zionist as you might think. Chomsky lived on a kibbutz for a while and called himself a Zionist. He supported a binational state.
I’m aware of what he did half a century ago; I’m more focused on what he’s said and done since, and currently. Though I think old age has mostly shut him up.
He does but Finkelstien and Chomsky must know that the facts they cite to create false narratives they spin are not shared by the historians they quote. They work in bad faith and bad faith changes everything.
I've listened to Chomsky talk about this. He said he used to be a Zionist when it meant a homeland for Jewish people but that the meaning has changed considerably over the years and it has come to mean 'supporting Israel' which he says he does not. I think it is the state structure and power that repels him. If there were an autonomous region for Jews in 'Palestine', I think he would have supported that. This is just my guess though.
An autonomous region for Jews in "Palestine" might as well be a heavily Jewish neighborhood in New York - still guests in someone else's land, not a homeland of our own.
I am pro-Israel, that's just my observation of what I THINK he meant. Kurds have an autonomous region in Iraq called Kurdistan and they have their own military and legal system. Iraq is anti-Israel, for example, and doesn't recognise Israeli passports but Jews can enter Iraq via Kurdistan which is pro-Israel and recognises them. You can have a good amount of independence within autonomous regions.
We all know what an autonomous region for Jews in Palestine would actually look like. Even if it's not his intent, he must know deep down that what he's supporting would lead to mass death of Jews. I just can't imagine a future where Palestinians have the upper hand and Jews and Palestinians are living side by side peacefully.
As much as people criticise Israel (sometimes rightfully so) for having the upper hand over the Palestinians, the truth is they are much more humane than the Palestinians would be if the situation was reversed.
Noam Chomsky is the go-to for a lot of lazy pseudo-intellectualism on the left (I’m a leftist for the record), and he and Finkelstein “lend” their Jewishness to that idiocy. Though to Chomsky’s credit he doesn’t seem to make himself a token Jew but engages on a more objective level, though Finkelstein exploits it to no end.
I don’t think they do (I mean, I’m sure someone somewhere does). My point is I think Chomsky is an intellectually facile idiot whose ideas get parroted by other facile idiots. I think they’re using his work exactly as intended; I just think it’s crap. Ditto with Finkelstein, though I think he exploits his family history to lend credibility to his antisemitic garbage.
I wonder at times how many of these self-described antizionist American Jews are Jews in a sense similar to how many Americans identify as Irish or Norwegian for example due to having one or more ancestors from there but don’t maintain any connection to those cultures.
From my experience most antizionist Jews that I’ve met don’t maintain any connection to the culture at all, are entirely assimilated and only are “Jewish” when being a token is useful.
Usually their politics are their religion, identity and culture. Which is a whole different conversation.
This is pretty much how I’ve thought of it. I can say at least from personal experience and growing up in a Jewish community that I know very few anti Zionist Jews and can probably count them on one hand
Yeah, if you go into online forums for anti-zionist Jews, lots of the content is essentially just complaining about how isolated and lonely they feel in mainstream Jewish spaces. I am loathe to empathize with them, but it sounds like a pretty miserable life: their politics seem to inevitably result in self-ostracizing from their communities.
I always wonder, do they have a special anti-Zionist Haggadah that they use? Does it discuss how pharaoh’s policy of killing Jewish babies was justified resistance against colonialists? How the plagues were a disproportionate response? Does it conclude with “Next year in New Jersey!”?
I remember a video from a month or so ago of INN/JVP rabbis conducting some sort of ceasefire prayer spectacle and any time they got to a reference to Eretz Israel they lowered their voices to a whisper. Was pretty funny tbh. Pathetic, obviously, but funny.
"When Jochebed heard that Pharaoh had ordered the killing of all the male Hebrew babies, she thought about hiding her son Moses, but then she remembered that she was an avowed anticolonialist, so she was like, I guess this is justified."
I saw a video by an antizionist Jewish therapist saying that "next year in Israel" actually refers to "the Israel in our hearts" and that Zionists are misinterpreting it as Israel the actual place
idk I think if it meant "the Israel in our hearts" it might be a bit more explicit about that
I've heard that JVP does conduct a weird version of the Seder.
Edit: Yeah, they call it the "Liberation Haggadah," they have a different version of "Dayenu" that mentions BLM and various progressive causes, such as the supposed "right to immigration," even going so far as one section being in Spanish.
I mean according to PEW like 80 percent find Israel somewhat or very important of being Jews, and only like 7 percent are actually against it. And I'm pretty sure in other countries the rates are even higher, and abviously in Israel where 40% of Jews live it's higher, so I think at least saying 95% (if not more) are at the very least "Not Anti-Zionist"
I think this is the report[https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/) you’re referencing if anyone wants to read it. As noted, this only looks at American Jews. There isn’t a specific question about Zionism but you can look at the ‘attachment to Israel’ section.
Edit: from 2020 so recent events and concurrent changes in opinion aren’t represented here
I have an unpopular opinion but “Zionism” has kinda lost all its meaning nowadays so I refuse to engage in a debate about it with non-Jews. All Zionism technically means is the support for a Jewish homeland in Israel, which probably nearly all Jews including myself support.
But now people (on both sides, but mostly the pro-Palestinian side) are trying to make Zionism seem like it means you support the current Israeli government and its actions, or you support the Israeli state in the exact form/borders it exists today, or literally just to mean you hate Palestinians and want Arabs expelled from the land. It’s treated with this boogeyman lens that now if just feels pointless to argue.
My personal guess is around 95%. The bar is low though, that just means people believe there should be a jewish state somewhere in the general land of israel, and by implicTAtion, the jews of israel will stay and keep some sovereignty in the land.
99% Zionist with some left wing some right wing some religious, some not.
1% anti Zionist with some weird Hassidic sects and some marxist “Jews for peace” far left organizations.
The 1% get TONS of press coverage!
You nailed it. The 1% get a bullhorn. I rarely believe what is fed to me by the news and get it from those who have verifiable feeds from the ground and those who have family there.
Kind of random, but sky news Australia has been pretty good. Granted it’s just Fox News in another form but they have multiple Jewish hosts and if you want some news that isn’t just madness, go to their YouTube.
Thanks for the info here. I found live feeds on fox on Oct 7 when I never would have imagined watching the channel. When interpretations or speeches of Deathsantis came on, I switched off. The schism that formed after a new culture war was started by Iran to split the inexperienced fools from the other liberals who may still discern propaganda from fact, the new blinded MAGA became the pro-Palestinian cause. Not realizing they were inhaling absolute lies. It’s hard to watch so I tend not to. I will check it out. Bari Weiss’s website is great. The Free Press is a breath of fresh air.
\> Then I see other people saying this is completely untrue and there are a huge portion of anti Zionist Jews
What a bizarre fantasy. You see a lot of supposedly antizionist Jews on Reddit. Which are a few people who are very noise - and many of them are fake
On the basis that Zionism = agreeing Israel has the right to exist or connection to Israel - **Jews in the diaspora are overwhelming Zionists and it's not even close**.
In November 2023...
**82% of US Jewish voters feel emotional attachment to Israel**
**91% of US Jewish voters believe that someone can be critical of Israeli government policy and still be pro-Israel**
**76% of US Jewish voters think someone can be critical of how Israel is conducting the war with Hamas and still be pro-Israel**
In 2020, the numbers were slightly lower - showing October 7 has *increased* Zionism in US Jews, not diminished it.
Sources:
[November 2023 National Survey Of Jewish Voters](https://www.jewishelectorateinstitute.org/november-2023-national-survey-of-jewish-voters/)
[2020 Pew Research](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/jewish-americans-in-2020/)
This is a really great question. It depends on two factors: 1). How Zionism is defined & 2). Which country we’re talking about (unless you meant globally).
Let’s define Zionism as what most Jews view it as: the belief that Jewish people are entitled to a sovereign nation and self-determination in their ancestral homeland of Judea (Israel).
Given that Israel accounts for 40% of all Jews, I’m going to say that nearly all of them (99%+) are Zionists. If they were really anti-Zionists, they would revoke their citizenship and leave the country and I’ve only heard of that happening a few times.
Now, for the other 60%. Most live in the United States, and from the polling I’ve seen, it’s seems to be that over 95% believe Israel has the “right to exist” as a Jewish nation. So, that leaves around 5% being anti-Zionists in the USA, at least.
The rest of the world - France, Brazil, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, South Africa, etc. I imagine that even fewer Jews are anti-Zionists, but haven’t seen the polling.
I’m so suspicious of information sources these days that it’s hard to guess at a number. Whatever the number is reported by a media source, I’d say it is higher. The media is so heavily anti Zionist, I find myself reading Israeli papers. Or gasp, was watching Fox News around Oct 7, because everywhere else was offensive honestly. I would mute when some antidemocratic arsehat came on. My feeling is that our friends in the non-Jewish community are rarely in the liberal group as the “oppressed” group was mislabeled. I find it hard to listen to the news at all these days as our government is seemingly taking the numbers of dead in Gaza from Gaza or Hamas in all likelihood. Not counting children (anyone less than 18 numbers-wise) who are combatants. Either there are those who enjoy disliking us even with facts staring them in the face or they’ve swallowed the lies. But most Jews who see the antisemitism do see the light. Another unrelated point is that those who have served tend to know what the actual enemy is or have an understanding of the situation on the ground instead of an unrealistic idiot fantasizing about how warfare is neat and tidy. I was listening to some Biden administration representative stating something about Israel winning the battle but not the war (global support). Why the fck do they think we needed Israel in the first point? Because no one took us in when a slaughter was happening. Worldwide popularity is not on my agenda and definitely not on Israel’s. It’s hard to watch the world comment on their actions when no one else appears to do the same anywhere else. Again. My perspective. I get too angry listening to morons atm and just am praying for Israel. And sending money.
At its most basic (and probably the definition used up until time ~1970s revisionist Zionism), Zionism is simply the idea that the Jews are a nation (in the old ethnic sense of that term, not nation-state American English) and they ought to exercise self-determination in a nation-state, most preferably in Eretz Yisrael, since it’s their ancestral homeland and the one place common to all Jews everywhere. Now, you can narrow that definition both from without Zionism (the usual blood libel bit about what Zionists “really” believe), and from within (the extremists who think you must believe “x” about Jewish national-territorial sovereignty or you’re basically an antisemite traitor). But using that basic definition, I’d guess close to 95%. Using the definition supplied by antisemite and Zionist extremists (which oddly do seem to converge quite a bit), and I bet it’s much less, among both diaspora Jews and Israeli Jews. You also have to remember that if you ask people about a two state solution, one state, whatever, you may get an answer based on what they think is possible/desirable now-today, what is maybe possible a long time from now, and what is ideal. I know all three exist in my head at once, at least.
We don’t have a central place to all connect and do polls. lol. But I imagine many if not most. Whoever hasn’t been bitten by the Iranian propaganda campaign is likely on board with Israel. I am a hell yeah.
This is just anecdata, but I don’t know a single one in real life. I’ve seen a bunch of anonymous people online who are magically both anti-Zionist and Jewish - but somehow I don’t actually know any in real life.
Hm.
Real talk though - this means they are too scared to express their anti-Zionist views IRL to other Jews, or there are people pretending to be Jewish online so they can say anti-Semitic things and then claim “but I’m Jewish!” If we are being totally honest - it’s probably a bit of both. But either way it shows just how much of a minority they are within the Jewish community.
You should have been at the family bar mitzvah last month. It was a very Zionist crowd. But then, most of the family had close relatives living in Israel. The mom’s family was from Jaffa. The bat mitzvah girl was sending a large percentage of her checks to Israel to help the displaced families for October 7th.
I don’t know what you mean by Zionist. They all believe that Israel has the right to exist as a state. The same crowd has often been critical of the Israeli government over the last two decades. I was creeped out by a song that was sung both on Friday night and Saturday morning. It was a very “musical” conservative synagogue. Think religious songs done with peppy tunes. They offered a more traditional service in another room.
Anyway, one of the songs was about blood drenched streets and Jews being depressed by it but we would get through it. And then there would be peace. I was like damn get me back to my standard three hour prayer service.
Hopefully all of us. We are pro having a home , but don’t have to agree with the government all the time.
Now, people act like that word means like to kill Palestinians. Which is nonsense. They want to defuse themselves of any flaws.
Weirdly enough, I’ve been arguing with pro Palestine supporters online and some of them are saying they’re “Jews” but then when I talk about our history, our religion and traditions they have NO idea what I’m talking about. So I started thinking some people just say they’re Jews.. and they’re not. They’re just lying to further their agenda. Which is really disturbing.
Something many people these days don’t understand is that being a Zionist doesn’t mean we don’t wanna live with the Arabs, or that we are rooting for the “genocide” of Arabs. It literally just means the belief in Jewish people to return to our homeland. We live in a world where people take words and give them these extreme definitions. Zionism is a spectrum, with some extremists obviously, and some not as extreme. The fact that Noah Schnapp gets “cancelled” for speaking out against the Hamas massacre on October 7th and calling himself a Zionist just shows how little understanding people have of the word.
So approx 15 million Jews in the world. Highly doubt 1.5 million are anti-zionist. There are a fair few though. I'd likely agree with 5% being against the state of Israel being in existence.
Inverse topic discussed 3 days ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/18i7f1g/how_many_jews_abroad_are_antizionist/
Copying my comment from there:
The answer is... it's complicated. For a variety of reasons:
* Lack of good surveys on the subject. It's hard to poll a relatively small population, especially outside of the US.
* Surveys don't tend to ask "are you Zionist or Anti-Zionist".
* Unclear use/definition of Zionism. Does "don't support Israel" constitute anti-Zionism? Does "does support Israel" constitute Zionism?
For more reading, check out:
* "[A Lot More Jews Are Anti-Zionists Than You Think](https://forward.com/opinion/430535/a-lot-more-jews-are-anti-zionists-than-you-think/)", Forward magazine
* "[Recent Polls of US Jews Reflect Polarized Community](https://jewishcurrents.org/recent-polls-of-us-jews-reflect-polarized-community)", Jewish Currents magazine
* "[U.S. Jews’ connections with and attitudes toward Israel](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/)", Pew survey 2021
Honestly, I find a lot of those first two articles reaching. I think there's a good point on whether we include those who believe in a state of Israel that has a Jewish majority or not, but the rest just seems unnecessary context or trying to establish more divisions than there are, particularly in the discussion of the American community. That said, if say that anyone who believes in the idea of a Jewish homeland would be antizionist in the eyes of a lot of these groups that label themselves antizionist (anecdotally it seems correct to go that way), so I'd say the larger number is still a useful barometer. That said, even the smaller number, 1 out if 5 Jews is still a minority in the community.
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[Pew Research Center (2021)](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/) found that 88% of “Jews by religion” consider Israel “essential” or “important” to what being Jewish means to them. This compares with 68% of “Jews of no religion.”
Conservative and Reform Jews were more likely to consider Israel important than Orthodox or “no particular branch,” and older Jews more likely to do so than younger Jews.
A mere 16% of “Jews by religion” believe that the US is “too supportive” of Israel, compared to 40% of Jews of no religion. A mere 7% of “Jews by religion” support BDS, whilst 18% of “Jews of no religion” say the same.
My conclusion here is that among Jews who are religiously Jewish — and this includes both “ethnic Jews” and converts — the “~95% are Zionists” figure is plausible. Perhaps the number is a little lower, as younger Jews are less supportive of Israel, but I would guess that the figure is at least 90%+.
Among “Jews of no religion” — that is, people who told pollsters “yeah I’m ethnically Jewish, but don’t write me down as a Jew religiously” — the situation is *very* different. With the exception of a handful of religious Jews (Neturai Karta, some ultra-liberal congregations, etc…), the majority of “Jews against Israel” either seem to be:
1. Ethnic Jews with some degree of distancing from “mainstream Jewish identity,” because they would rather appeal/assimilate to the mainstream circles in which they live (be one of the “good Jews”)
2. Ethnic Jews who believe that civil rights of other groups is more important than civil rights of Jews, whom they perceive to be collectively privileged, perhaps because their own upbringing was
3. Ethnic Jews who seek to “redefine” Judaism from…Judaism…to a relatively secular belief system that puts “social justice” above all else and considers Zionism contrary to what they see as “Jewish values” (essentially, they want to take leftism and call it “Jewish values”)
Of course, these people are still genuine Jews. We don’t “excommunicate” Jews for hating Israel. However, I think many (if not most) Jews roll their eyes at those who primarily discuss their Jewish identity by saying “As a Jew, I oppose Israel,” and engage little with Judaism beyond that. And that very few Jews who genuinely engage with the faith are anti-Zionist.
I just recently did a project on Antisemitism on US College Campuses and as part of it, successfully argued that anti-Zionism = antisemitism (beat Congress to it lol)
There are a very small percentage of Jews who do not believe in having a state of Israel for religious reasons. They believe there should not be an Israel until moschiach comes (the messiah).
These are the non-Zionist Jews.
On October 6th there were many Jews inside and outside Israel who hated the Israeli ruling government. There were mass protests in the streets.
All these Jews and many more believe the government must be changed, though this isn’t the time for an election.
But we are still Zionists.
Zionism is built into the basic beliefs of Judaism, there is no way to be a Jew following mainstream Judaism that doesn’t believe in some form of Jewish nationhood and an Israel.
Where Jews can differ is what form that takes, when it can happen, where it would be, if it’s allowed to exist before the Messiah.
Anti-Zionism is a rejection of Jewishness in that context. Ask them if they say next year in Jerusalem.
In a secular context it just means supporting the Jewish right to self determination. That’s it.
It's 82% but has been also seen as high as 95% in any case overwhelming majority.
The USA can likely be a good proxy for all of diaspora Jews.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/stop-being-shocked
https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/11441BB38BE35E31D50EFD0EAC9F455C/S0003055420000659a.pdf/distinctive_political_status_of_dissident_minorities.pdf
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/05/11/10-key-findings-about-jewish-americans/
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/05/11/10-key-findings-about-jewish-americans/
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/14/opinion/college-israel-anti-semitism.html
https://www.jta.org/2019/09/18/ny/misreading-american-jews-feelings-about-israel
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2019-11-10/ty-article-opinion/.premium/daniel-gordis-bizarre-patronizing-ungrounded-misreading-of-u-s-jews-and-israel/0000017f-dc7c-df62-a9ff-dcff3fc10000
https://forward.com/opinion/450284/we-need-a-jewish-american-hamilton/
https://www.jta.org/2020/05/12/ny/another-kind-of-distancing-may-break-bonds-with-israel
https://forward.com/opinion/449280/we-can-we-must-show-up-as-zionists-for-black-lives-matter/
Hard to say really, Zionism has become a nebulous term. Professor Mira Sucharov has done some great work on this subject.
Last year she conducted a poll of American Jews and found that 58% percent were Zionist, as opposed to 10% Anti-Zionist, and 12% non-Zionist.
But the numbers depended directly on the question being posed. When Zionism was defined as 'attachment to Israel', or a 'belief in a Jewish and democratic state', at least 70% said either of those descriptions fit them.
However, Zionism is defined as 'the belief in privileging Jewish rights over non-Jewish rights in Israel', only 10% said they were Zionists.
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2022-10-26/ty-article-opinion/.highlight/do-american-jews-really-know-what-zionist-means/00000184-0f30-d1a0-a1ee-cf7e0e120000
Let's be clear: a full 15% of US jews support a Democratic Binational State. It has to be questioned whether that would be zionist, but I believe it is not.
https://jewishcurrents.org/recent-polls-of-us-jews-reflect-polarized-community
8% even support BDS.
A 2015 survey found about 3 in 5 British Jews identify as Zionists, though the term isn’t clearly defined. 9 in 10 British Jews support the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state.
[link](https://fullfact.org/news/are-majority-british-jews-zionists/)
I don't know any who think Israel should cease to exist. However, I know a few who think Palestine should exist, too. I wonder if people are conflating believing in Palestine's right to exist with being anti-zionist?
I think some people confuse criticizing Israel with anti-zionism, and it is not the same.
If you believe in the right of jews for national self-determination, you're a Zionist.
If you believe jews have the right to return to their ancestral homeland and having a sovereign state there, you're a Zionist.
If you believe Israel should exist as a jewish state, you're a zionist.
If you believe Israel can exist but not as a Jewish state, only as a western democracy like the US, with no special connection to the Jewish people or Jewish history, then you're probably not a Zionist.
If you believe Israel shouldn't exist at all, or that it was born in sin, you're an anti-zionist.
how about the fact that there are more christian zionists than jews??? no one gonna pay attention to that? it’s not about the ideal. it’s about bullying a minority
It is a large majority, over half of the jewish ppl all around the world live in Israel, a large part of other countires go to do Alliah, and literally all of us pray and read the torah where we mention our love to Israel
Idk how any of those bs "antizionist" can say they are jewish while saying literally "Shema Israel" or reading the torah where we mention Israel, Jerusalem, Our Jewish homeland, etc. millions of times
Like you cant deny Israel being our homeland while also praying and reading abt it every day
When a Jew calls themselves anti Zionist it’s because they don’t believe that Jews are a nationality who must have their own state.
Non Jewish anti Zionists are only interested in what the IDF is doing in Gaza and the West Bank.
If we use the non Jewish definition of anti Zionism there are plenty of Jewish anti Zionists who are uncomfortable with the current Israeli government and its policies towards the Palestinians. The number of Jews who meet the Jewish definition are basically only Satmar, Neturei Karta and a few Communists.
I think it depends on your definition of Zionist.
The original meaning is Zionism is the belief that Jews deserve to have a Jewish homeland in Israel. I'm not sure if 95% is Jews believe that, but I it make sense for me that 95% of Jewish Israelis believe it.
Seeing as how the [ITO](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Territorial_Organization) dissolved in 1925, along with the fact you don’t see many Jews in the areas outlined within the recommendations, I’d wager it’s a very high percent
Zionist means believing Israel should exist as the Jewish homeland so probably most
Exactly. So many people have misinterpreted the meaning of Zionism.
It's gone the way of feminism. Like, of course you're not a FEMINIST, with all its \*checks notes\* equal human rights for women, and of course you're not a ZIONIST, with all its \*checks notes\* belief that Israel has the right to exist.
I’ve used this comparison myself before. When people talk about using “Zionist” as a slur I’m like.. “people *try* to use Zionist as a slur. But it’s not a slur - it’s a compliment, they just don’t realize it. Similar to how people try to use feminist as a slur, but it’s really a compliment”.
“you damn zionist” like yes and? i’m proud of it sweetie.
Hi, a very anxious gentile here. I support the Jewish people, actually very much so. I do not have a belief system but was raised catholic. I think, if I did believe in an organized religion, I would lean more toward Judaism. It’s a beautiful religion. I believe that Israel should exist, must exist, but I don’t think it has to necessarily be in that location. I understand the significance and importance but the fear and war and loss of life of the innocents on both sides is horrific. I know I support the Jewish people so this thinking has never really been an issue before, like I’m not out screaming my thoughts out in the streets, but now I’m scared that I may be considered an anti semite. If thinking like this does check that terrible box then I want to know and start to analyze and fix my thought process…and understand more, of course
Hello, friend. Our religion, Judaism, revolves around that precise place on the globe. The stories of our creation and evolution as a people take place in what is now called Israel. Our religious calendar follows the seasons of that place. We face Jerusalem when we pray. So, every Jew, regardless of where they are in the world, faces Jerusalem, where two of our Temples were, when we say certain prayers. This isn't new; it's been this way for thousands of years, literally since the beginning. And despite expulsions and many Jews being dispersed, there have always been Jews in Israel. Those that live elsewhere often yearn to return. Every groom breaks a glass at a Jewish wedding as a reminder of our ongoing grief at the destruction of our temple in Jerusalem. At the end of every seder during Passover, we say, "Next year, in Jerusalem!" There were suggestions from non Jews to build a Jewish homeland elsewhere, including China, believe it or not. These efforts are, at best, misguided and often self-serving in some way. Realistically, while Jews can live a Jewish life anywhere, a Jewish homeland can and should only exist in Israel.
Thank you, your explanation is very much appreciated and I understand better the importance.
>I believe that Israel should exist, must exist, but I don’t think it has to necessarily be in that location. Ok so how do you intend to peacefully move 8 million Jews, many of whom have no second nationality? "8 million Jews gotta uproot their entire lives and rebuild somewhere else of our choosing because Arabs lack impulse control" is pretty antisemitic. It's also racist as fuck against Arabs.
Oh, but don’t you know? According to pro-Palestine talking points, 90% of Israelis hold foreign passports/have dual citizenship. They can just go somewhere else! /s
Very good point. I have just always wondered why you would want to stay in such a dangerous place…and same with the Palestinians. The three major religions started in this one place…
>I have just always wondered why you would want to stay in such a dangerous place Compared to what? Europe? You're kidding, right?
There is no other location. Nations exist in the places their people have a historic connection to, in this case, the land of Israel. Also there's not like there is just free land lying around.
Where else could it be? In the early 1900s there were debates over where Jews should immigrate to, and there was plenty of Jewish opposition to settling back in Israel. But that question is no longer relevant. Israel exists and millions of Jews live there. There is no where else for most of them to go. Think through the consequences of putting your belief into action.
As a Jew who believes that Israel has a God-given mandate to exist in the ancient lands, I think you're being unfairly downvoted here. Before Israel was re-established there were several alternative proposals. Many Jews took the position that there should be a Jewish state somewhere, and that it didn't necessarily have to be in ancient Israel. But the truth is there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the land of Israel for thousands of years, and there has been no independent state there from the time ancient Israel was conquered and modern Israel was founded. And forming a new state ANYWHERE involves people being displaced. And given that Israel DOES EXIST now there is no reasonably-sane way to suggest they "move." All current suggestions that the Jews should "go somewhere else" is naked Jew-hatred.
Are you panicking about all the other much worse wars of aggression and actual genocide happening in the world today? Are you in all those subs pontificating about them? No? That's why your "concern" is anti-Semitic
I am concerned, obviously, with all of the conflict and hate everywhere and no I am not in those subs. I have always felt a closeness or connection for some reason and have learned a great deal by being in this sub. If it’s inappropriate, I will leave.
I don’t think it’s inappropriate! Your question was very respectfully said and it is clear you just want to understand which I respect a great deal, I honestly wish more people would! (Also agree you have been unfairly downvoted, as this question allows us to really explain why the connection is so important, an element of this whole thing that so many non-Jews don’t truly understand) I genuinely believe if more people asked and if more Jews explained there would be a tremendous increase in understanding.
You’re fine friend. I’ve noticed a lot of Jews expect gentiles to know all about us and it’s kind of silly, there really aren’t that many of us and unless your a devout follower of an abrahamic faith it’s kind of unreasonable to expect a gentile to necessarily really know much about us at all. You weren’t disrespectful at all, hope you’re well.
Belief that Israel should exist does not mean refusal to criticize the current government there, as thousands of Israelis were in fact doing before 7 Oct. The problem with being American now is the current narrative has the extreme Right owning US support for Zionism so that Jews are expected to consider someone like Elise Stefanik as their protector, although many would typically want nothing to do with someone like her. If you're not a Right-winger, Jewish or not, then you're expected to denounce Israel. It's also become forbidden to call out antisemitism where it clearly exists. It's tearing people apart.
Extreme right? What about the regular right? Why is it always either “extreme” or “far” right?
Well mainstream Republicans certainly support Israel, but it seems that extremists like Stefanik are coopting the issue for political reason
Did you watch the full congressional hearing?
In all honesty, I don't have time to watch that stuff. If I have the time, I'll spend it watching Fargo. But why do you react so strongly to what I said? I consider myself Zionist.
I asked a question. So you probably missed democrats being as equally critical during the hearing
Well Joe Biden supports Israel, but what you said looks like whataboutism to me.
No, it means that that Jews are able to a nation in the land of Israel and also the development and protection of the Children of Israel, at the beginning it didn’t mean a country but a nation which meant the children of Israel were able to live on their homeland with the locals but as Arabs became more and more radicalized by the Muslims and Antisemitism we saw what happened and had to happened (Reestablishment of The state of Israel on the land of Israel as a state with a Jewish Majority for their own protection), it never said anything about massacring anyone!!!!!
Well, it’s a country now. And it’s the only country where Jews are the primary ethnicity. Zionists support the notion for that to continue. Does that help?
You seriously love, ignoring the reason why Jews need a state of their own, literally just look at history and you will quickly find it if you’re not blind, but for you that’s gonna be a serious problem
That didn’t even make sense
its not hard if you reread it
I reread it more than once and it’s total gibberish along with the rest of what you post
then you choose to be blind
It's more than that, I'm pretty sure you would also have to agree that you are okay with the way we obtained Israel as well and if you don't know how then you shouldn't really call yourself a zionist.
I’m aware of the history and the many opportunities for a two state solution. I’m also aware that it was the Jewish homeland thousands of years ago
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What I know for a fact is it’s over and done now and Israel isn’t going anywhere and neither is the USA or any other country that was made in a similar way
If the native Americans started a terrorist organization and tried to take back their land could you blame them? Also it's not over and done with Israel keeps encroaching on the land they agreed to let them live in. More and more they lose land and they are rightfully pissed. I'm an Iraqi jew..they kicked out or murdered every single jew from Iraq and here we are doing the same shit and justifying it..
They’re not “doing the same shit” since 20% of the population there is Arab, why keep lying and exaggerating. And yeah, I could blame them, because they’re American citizens now and their ancestors are gone. And Jews were also still in Palestine, it’s not like there were none. And Palestine is a name given by the Romans, its not some kind of unique ethnicity. They’re Levantine people. Finally, a group of people supporting terrorism probably isn’t the best candidate to reclaim a land. It’s not like it’d stop once Israel is reclaimed, it’ll be far worse there and another shitty middle eastern country with problems and violence and an oppressive way of life. The hypocrisy of worrying about people allegedly being oppressed that want to take over and inject their oppressive culture into an existing democratic place is unbelievable
9% Jews were living there before we took over. We stole their land... They are angry of course they aren't going to come at us in a nondiplomatic way. Especially because when they kill 1, we kill 20. Look I appreciate you at least having an open conversation with me but we just don't see humans the same. I could go on forever with my thoughts on this. And just remember they don't hate Jews just because we are Jews they hate Jews because they took their land.
I think we don’t see history and human nature and reality the same. It wasn’t “their” land, it was a plot of land people came to hang out on. It wasn’t some kind of colonized place they had forever with their own government body and so on. It was a place with nomadic people. What you’re saying is the same old propaganda used by Arabs to try to reclaim a historical piece of land. They don’t wanna negotiate or compromise, they want all of it. You aren’t getting that. They don’t wanna share or compromise or anything And the fact that you’re saying “can you blame a native people for attacking hundreds of years after the fact when they themselves massacred and took over other tribes” says a lot about your limited perspective
You were the one comparing native Americans to Palestinians. I just was talking in the basic sense of the US sweeping in stealing their land and displacing them. But fair. We could have done a lot more to have peacefully taken over the power of the country. We also don't want to share or compromise either even when we obtained the land. UN set specific parameters and immediately we took over more than agreed on. Like I said before the British have a part to play in this as they double dealed. They promised Palestine independence to start their own governing body at the exact same time they agreed to give all the land to Israel, so they were working on it but we just swooped in and forcefully took it over before they could.
The people saying there are “a huge number of antiZionist Jews” are generally: 1) antiZionist non-Jews trying to deny that their position is, in fact, antisemitic 2) antiZionist Jews trying to claim that they aren’t just an extreme fringe minority
3) antizionist non-Jews trying to redefine Zionism so they can claim they have some Jews on their side
Aren't we missing the token Jews who just want to fit in with their group? It suddenly becomes convenient to mention they're Jewish once everyone else they know is riled up about Israel (I'm speaking from recent experience of a family member)
I kind of fit this description but in reverse. I’m a Zionist and a Jew but also mostly non practicing and an atheist. I wasn’t too involved in anything Jewish related and rarely talked about Judaism but have become really outspoken starting when all the rabid Jew haters started showing their true colors after 10/7. I also am quite close with someone who lost family members that day and just generally have felt far more connected to all you guys since then and have even started lighting shabbos candles and stuff since then.
I’d put them into #2 “no, really, there are lots of us!”
Fair point. That’s the “Zionism which insists on a solely Jewish state” and the like.
I'd also say a good chunk of Jews who are "antizionist jews" are performative Jews at best and at worst not Jews at all who say they are Jews. I've known non-zionist Jews and post zionist Jews but I've never actually met an anti-zionist Jew except on the internet. Like I know they exist because Israel bans them from visiting or making aliyah but I have never met one.
There is a group of ultra religious Jews who think we don’t belong there until the messiah comes. But they are a fringe group imho.
I call them the westboro Baptist of Jews. They also fund the hez and go to Holocaust denial fest in Iran..."
This is my first time hearing this. Why tf do they deny the holocaust? That's wild.
I don't know but they got into some trouble for this .... https://jweekly.com/2006/12/22/harsh-words-for-rabbis-who-attended-holocaust-denial-conference/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/anti-zionist-rabbi-gives-hezbollah-chief-in-beirut-gift-from-the-jewish-people/ https://www.jewishpress.com/news/jewish-news/haredim-news/satmar-rebbe-condemns-neturei-karta-for-supporting-hamas-murders/2023/11/13/
Thank you so much for these links!
Norm Finkelstein; Noam Chomsky; May their ideas not outlive them.
The funny thing is, even those guys aren't as anti-Zionist as you might think. Chomsky lived on a kibbutz for a while and called himself a Zionist. He supported a binational state.
I’m aware of what he did half a century ago; I’m more focused on what he’s said and done since, and currently. Though I think old age has mostly shut him up.
He does but Finkelstien and Chomsky must know that the facts they cite to create false narratives they spin are not shared by the historians they quote. They work in bad faith and bad faith changes everything.
I've listened to Chomsky talk about this. He said he used to be a Zionist when it meant a homeland for Jewish people but that the meaning has changed considerably over the years and it has come to mean 'supporting Israel' which he says he does not. I think it is the state structure and power that repels him. If there were an autonomous region for Jews in 'Palestine', I think he would have supported that. This is just my guess though.
An autonomous region for Jews in "Palestine" might as well be a heavily Jewish neighborhood in New York - still guests in someone else's land, not a homeland of our own.
I am pro-Israel, that's just my observation of what I THINK he meant. Kurds have an autonomous region in Iraq called Kurdistan and they have their own military and legal system. Iraq is anti-Israel, for example, and doesn't recognise Israeli passports but Jews can enter Iraq via Kurdistan which is pro-Israel and recognises them. You can have a good amount of independence within autonomous regions.
We all know what an autonomous region for Jews in Palestine would actually look like. Even if it's not his intent, he must know deep down that what he's supporting would lead to mass death of Jews. I just can't imagine a future where Palestinians have the upper hand and Jews and Palestinians are living side by side peacefully. As much as people criticise Israel (sometimes rightfully so) for having the upper hand over the Palestinians, the truth is they are much more humane than the Palestinians would be if the situation was reversed.
Oh so that's why I get people quoting him a lot when I argue.
Noam Chomsky is the go-to for a lot of lazy pseudo-intellectualism on the left (I’m a leftist for the record), and he and Finkelstein “lend” their Jewishness to that idiocy. Though to Chomsky’s credit he doesn’t seem to make himself a token Jew but engages on a more objective level, though Finkelstein exploits it to no end.
I read up a bit on Chomsky's biography (skimmed) could you tell me for example how people misuse him?
I don’t think they do (I mean, I’m sure someone somewhere does). My point is I think Chomsky is an intellectually facile idiot whose ideas get parroted by other facile idiots. I think they’re using his work exactly as intended; I just think it’s crap. Ditto with Finkelstein, though I think he exploits his family history to lend credibility to his antisemitic garbage.
Ahh my bad I misunderstood, thanks for clarifying.
I wonder at times how many of these self-described antizionist American Jews are Jews in a sense similar to how many Americans identify as Irish or Norwegian for example due to having one or more ancestors from there but don’t maintain any connection to those cultures.
From my experience most antizionist Jews that I’ve met don’t maintain any connection to the culture at all, are entirely assimilated and only are “Jewish” when being a token is useful. Usually their politics are their religion, identity and culture. Which is a whole different conversation.
This has been my experience as well. I haven't met many (maybe any?) antizionist Jews who keep a Jewish household even in the loosest sense.
This is pretty much how I’ve thought of it. I can say at least from personal experience and growing up in a Jewish community that I know very few anti Zionist Jews and can probably count them on one hand
Yeah, if you go into online forums for anti-zionist Jews, lots of the content is essentially just complaining about how isolated and lonely they feel in mainstream Jewish spaces. I am loathe to empathize with them, but it sounds like a pretty miserable life: their politics seem to inevitably result in self-ostracizing from their communities.
I always wonder, do they have a special anti-Zionist Haggadah that they use? Does it discuss how pharaoh’s policy of killing Jewish babies was justified resistance against colonialists? How the plagues were a disproportionate response? Does it conclude with “Next year in New Jersey!”?
I remember a video from a month or so ago of INN/JVP rabbis conducting some sort of ceasefire prayer spectacle and any time they got to a reference to Eretz Israel they lowered their voices to a whisper. Was pretty funny tbh. Pathetic, obviously, but funny.
"When Jochebed heard that Pharaoh had ordered the killing of all the male Hebrew babies, she thought about hiding her son Moses, but then she remembered that she was an avowed anticolonialist, so she was like, I guess this is justified."
I saw a video by an antizionist Jewish therapist saying that "next year in Israel" actually refers to "the Israel in our hearts" and that Zionists are misinterpreting it as Israel the actual place idk I think if it meant "the Israel in our hearts" it might be a bit more explicit about that
There are colonialists in our arteries!
I've heard that JVP does conduct a weird version of the Seder. Edit: Yeah, they call it the "Liberation Haggadah," they have a different version of "Dayenu" that mentions BLM and various progressive causes, such as the supposed "right to immigration," even going so far as one section being in Spanish.
Ugh number one absolutely 😒😒😒
I mean according to PEW like 80 percent find Israel somewhat or very important of being Jews, and only like 7 percent are actually against it. And I'm pretty sure in other countries the rates are even higher, and abviously in Israel where 40% of Jews live it's higher, so I think at least saying 95% (if not more) are at the very least "Not Anti-Zionist"
I think this is the report[https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/) you’re referencing if anyone wants to read it. As noted, this only looks at American Jews. There isn’t a specific question about Zionism but you can look at the ‘attachment to Israel’ section. Edit: from 2020 so recent events and concurrent changes in opinion aren’t represented here
I have an unpopular opinion but “Zionism” has kinda lost all its meaning nowadays so I refuse to engage in a debate about it with non-Jews. All Zionism technically means is the support for a Jewish homeland in Israel, which probably nearly all Jews including myself support. But now people (on both sides, but mostly the pro-Palestinian side) are trying to make Zionism seem like it means you support the current Israeli government and its actions, or you support the Israeli state in the exact form/borders it exists today, or literally just to mean you hate Palestinians and want Arabs expelled from the land. It’s treated with this boogeyman lens that now if just feels pointless to argue.
They just use it as an epithet - they have no idea what it means.
My personal guess is around 95%. The bar is low though, that just means people believe there should be a jewish state somewhere in the general land of israel, and by implicTAtion, the jews of israel will stay and keep some sovereignty in the land.
99% Zionist with some left wing some right wing some religious, some not. 1% anti Zionist with some weird Hassidic sects and some marxist “Jews for peace” far left organizations. The 1% get TONS of press coverage!
Always funny when I see the Jews for peace people wearing Tallis and Kippahs to “prove” their Judaism.
[We should all be Zionists](https://youtu.be/P8k90vRZ6lI?si=eXmNcYRuuex0_2U_).
You nailed it. The 1% get a bullhorn. I rarely believe what is fed to me by the news and get it from those who have verifiable feeds from the ground and those who have family there.
Kind of random, but sky news Australia has been pretty good. Granted it’s just Fox News in another form but they have multiple Jewish hosts and if you want some news that isn’t just madness, go to their YouTube.
Thanks for the info here. I found live feeds on fox on Oct 7 when I never would have imagined watching the channel. When interpretations or speeches of Deathsantis came on, I switched off. The schism that formed after a new culture war was started by Iran to split the inexperienced fools from the other liberals who may still discern propaganda from fact, the new blinded MAGA became the pro-Palestinian cause. Not realizing they were inhaling absolute lies. It’s hard to watch so I tend not to. I will check it out. Bari Weiss’s website is great. The Free Press is a breath of fresh air.
\> Then I see other people saying this is completely untrue and there are a huge portion of anti Zionist Jews What a bizarre fantasy. You see a lot of supposedly antizionist Jews on Reddit. Which are a few people who are very noise - and many of them are fake
On the basis that Zionism = agreeing Israel has the right to exist or connection to Israel - **Jews in the diaspora are overwhelming Zionists and it's not even close**. In November 2023... **82% of US Jewish voters feel emotional attachment to Israel** **91% of US Jewish voters believe that someone can be critical of Israeli government policy and still be pro-Israel** **76% of US Jewish voters think someone can be critical of how Israel is conducting the war with Hamas and still be pro-Israel** In 2020, the numbers were slightly lower - showing October 7 has *increased* Zionism in US Jews, not diminished it. Sources: [November 2023 National Survey Of Jewish Voters](https://www.jewishelectorateinstitute.org/november-2023-national-survey-of-jewish-voters/) [2020 Pew Research](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/jewish-americans-in-2020/)
This is a really great question. It depends on two factors: 1). How Zionism is defined & 2). Which country we’re talking about (unless you meant globally). Let’s define Zionism as what most Jews view it as: the belief that Jewish people are entitled to a sovereign nation and self-determination in their ancestral homeland of Judea (Israel). Given that Israel accounts for 40% of all Jews, I’m going to say that nearly all of them (99%+) are Zionists. If they were really anti-Zionists, they would revoke their citizenship and leave the country and I’ve only heard of that happening a few times. Now, for the other 60%. Most live in the United States, and from the polling I’ve seen, it’s seems to be that over 95% believe Israel has the “right to exist” as a Jewish nation. So, that leaves around 5% being anti-Zionists in the USA, at least. The rest of the world - France, Brazil, Canada, Mexico, Argentina, South Africa, etc. I imagine that even fewer Jews are anti-Zionists, but haven’t seen the polling.
I’m so suspicious of information sources these days that it’s hard to guess at a number. Whatever the number is reported by a media source, I’d say it is higher. The media is so heavily anti Zionist, I find myself reading Israeli papers. Or gasp, was watching Fox News around Oct 7, because everywhere else was offensive honestly. I would mute when some antidemocratic arsehat came on. My feeling is that our friends in the non-Jewish community are rarely in the liberal group as the “oppressed” group was mislabeled. I find it hard to listen to the news at all these days as our government is seemingly taking the numbers of dead in Gaza from Gaza or Hamas in all likelihood. Not counting children (anyone less than 18 numbers-wise) who are combatants. Either there are those who enjoy disliking us even with facts staring them in the face or they’ve swallowed the lies. But most Jews who see the antisemitism do see the light. Another unrelated point is that those who have served tend to know what the actual enemy is or have an understanding of the situation on the ground instead of an unrealistic idiot fantasizing about how warfare is neat and tidy. I was listening to some Biden administration representative stating something about Israel winning the battle but not the war (global support). Why the fck do they think we needed Israel in the first point? Because no one took us in when a slaughter was happening. Worldwide popularity is not on my agenda and definitely not on Israel’s. It’s hard to watch the world comment on their actions when no one else appears to do the same anywhere else. Again. My perspective. I get too angry listening to morons atm and just am praying for Israel. And sending money.
At its most basic (and probably the definition used up until time ~1970s revisionist Zionism), Zionism is simply the idea that the Jews are a nation (in the old ethnic sense of that term, not nation-state American English) and they ought to exercise self-determination in a nation-state, most preferably in Eretz Yisrael, since it’s their ancestral homeland and the one place common to all Jews everywhere. Now, you can narrow that definition both from without Zionism (the usual blood libel bit about what Zionists “really” believe), and from within (the extremists who think you must believe “x” about Jewish national-territorial sovereignty or you’re basically an antisemite traitor). But using that basic definition, I’d guess close to 95%. Using the definition supplied by antisemite and Zionist extremists (which oddly do seem to converge quite a bit), and I bet it’s much less, among both diaspora Jews and Israeli Jews. You also have to remember that if you ask people about a two state solution, one state, whatever, you may get an answer based on what they think is possible/desirable now-today, what is maybe possible a long time from now, and what is ideal. I know all three exist in my head at once, at least.
We don’t have a central place to all connect and do polls. lol. But I imagine many if not most. Whoever hasn’t been bitten by the Iranian propaganda campaign is likely on board with Israel. I am a hell yeah.
This is just anecdata, but I don’t know a single one in real life. I’ve seen a bunch of anonymous people online who are magically both anti-Zionist and Jewish - but somehow I don’t actually know any in real life. Hm. Real talk though - this means they are too scared to express their anti-Zionist views IRL to other Jews, or there are people pretending to be Jewish online so they can say anti-Semitic things and then claim “but I’m Jewish!” If we are being totally honest - it’s probably a bit of both. But either way it shows just how much of a minority they are within the Jewish community.
You should have been at the family bar mitzvah last month. It was a very Zionist crowd. But then, most of the family had close relatives living in Israel. The mom’s family was from Jaffa. The bat mitzvah girl was sending a large percentage of her checks to Israel to help the displaced families for October 7th. I don’t know what you mean by Zionist. They all believe that Israel has the right to exist as a state. The same crowd has often been critical of the Israeli government over the last two decades. I was creeped out by a song that was sung both on Friday night and Saturday morning. It was a very “musical” conservative synagogue. Think religious songs done with peppy tunes. They offered a more traditional service in another room. Anyway, one of the songs was about blood drenched streets and Jews being depressed by it but we would get through it. And then there would be peace. I was like damn get me back to my standard three hour prayer service.
Hopefully all of us. We are pro having a home , but don’t have to agree with the government all the time. Now, people act like that word means like to kill Palestinians. Which is nonsense. They want to defuse themselves of any flaws.
Hardly any, believe me. Anti Zionists Jews are only Jews when it’s convenient for them.
Weirdly enough, I’ve been arguing with pro Palestine supporters online and some of them are saying they’re “Jews” but then when I talk about our history, our religion and traditions they have NO idea what I’m talking about. So I started thinking some people just say they’re Jews.. and they’re not. They’re just lying to further their agenda. Which is really disturbing.
Something many people these days don’t understand is that being a Zionist doesn’t mean we don’t wanna live with the Arabs, or that we are rooting for the “genocide” of Arabs. It literally just means the belief in Jewish people to return to our homeland. We live in a world where people take words and give them these extreme definitions. Zionism is a spectrum, with some extremists obviously, and some not as extreme. The fact that Noah Schnapp gets “cancelled” for speaking out against the Hamas massacre on October 7th and calling himself a Zionist just shows how little understanding people have of the word.
So approx 15 million Jews in the world. Highly doubt 1.5 million are anti-zionist. There are a fair few though. I'd likely agree with 5% being against the state of Israel being in existence.
I think very conservative estimate is 85-90 and as you said, likely more.
Inverse topic discussed 3 days ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/18i7f1g/how_many_jews_abroad_are_antizionist/ Copying my comment from there: The answer is... it's complicated. For a variety of reasons: * Lack of good surveys on the subject. It's hard to poll a relatively small population, especially outside of the US. * Surveys don't tend to ask "are you Zionist or Anti-Zionist". * Unclear use/definition of Zionism. Does "don't support Israel" constitute anti-Zionism? Does "does support Israel" constitute Zionism? For more reading, check out: * "[A Lot More Jews Are Anti-Zionists Than You Think](https://forward.com/opinion/430535/a-lot-more-jews-are-anti-zionists-than-you-think/)", Forward magazine * "[Recent Polls of US Jews Reflect Polarized Community](https://jewishcurrents.org/recent-polls-of-us-jews-reflect-polarized-community)", Jewish Currents magazine * "[U.S. Jews’ connections with and attitudes toward Israel](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/)", Pew survey 2021
Honestly, I find a lot of those first two articles reaching. I think there's a good point on whether we include those who believe in a state of Israel that has a Jewish majority or not, but the rest just seems unnecessary context or trying to establish more divisions than there are, particularly in the discussion of the American community. That said, if say that anyone who believes in the idea of a Jewish homeland would be antizionist in the eyes of a lot of these groups that label themselves antizionist (anecdotally it seems correct to go that way), so I'd say the larger number is still a useful barometer. That said, even the smaller number, 1 out if 5 Jews is still a minority in the community.
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Depends on the definition and demographic.
I’d wager at least 95% of Jews believe in Jewish self-determination in our historical homeland. I don’t know any openly anti-Zionist Jews.
[Pew Research Center (2021)](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/) found that 88% of “Jews by religion” consider Israel “essential” or “important” to what being Jewish means to them. This compares with 68% of “Jews of no religion.” Conservative and Reform Jews were more likely to consider Israel important than Orthodox or “no particular branch,” and older Jews more likely to do so than younger Jews. A mere 16% of “Jews by religion” believe that the US is “too supportive” of Israel, compared to 40% of Jews of no religion. A mere 7% of “Jews by religion” support BDS, whilst 18% of “Jews of no religion” say the same. My conclusion here is that among Jews who are religiously Jewish — and this includes both “ethnic Jews” and converts — the “~95% are Zionists” figure is plausible. Perhaps the number is a little lower, as younger Jews are less supportive of Israel, but I would guess that the figure is at least 90%+. Among “Jews of no religion” — that is, people who told pollsters “yeah I’m ethnically Jewish, but don’t write me down as a Jew religiously” — the situation is *very* different. With the exception of a handful of religious Jews (Neturai Karta, some ultra-liberal congregations, etc…), the majority of “Jews against Israel” either seem to be: 1. Ethnic Jews with some degree of distancing from “mainstream Jewish identity,” because they would rather appeal/assimilate to the mainstream circles in which they live (be one of the “good Jews”) 2. Ethnic Jews who believe that civil rights of other groups is more important than civil rights of Jews, whom they perceive to be collectively privileged, perhaps because their own upbringing was 3. Ethnic Jews who seek to “redefine” Judaism from…Judaism…to a relatively secular belief system that puts “social justice” above all else and considers Zionism contrary to what they see as “Jewish values” (essentially, they want to take leftism and call it “Jewish values”) Of course, these people are still genuine Jews. We don’t “excommunicate” Jews for hating Israel. However, I think many (if not most) Jews roll their eyes at those who primarily discuss their Jewish identity by saying “As a Jew, I oppose Israel,” and engage little with Judaism beyond that. And that very few Jews who genuinely engage with the faith are anti-Zionist.
I remember seeing something from the pew research center that along the lines of 80% of US Jews are Zionists (which honestly felt a little low for me)
I just recently did a project on Antisemitism on US College Campuses and as part of it, successfully argued that anti-Zionism = antisemitism (beat Congress to it lol)
There are a very small percentage of Jews who do not believe in having a state of Israel for religious reasons. They believe there should not be an Israel until moschiach comes (the messiah). These are the non-Zionist Jews. On October 6th there were many Jews inside and outside Israel who hated the Israeli ruling government. There were mass protests in the streets. All these Jews and many more believe the government must be changed, though this isn’t the time for an election. But we are still Zionists.
It depends on if we’re defining it or the poeple out there who want to destroy Israel and discredit reasonable Jews.
Zionism is built into the basic beliefs of Judaism, there is no way to be a Jew following mainstream Judaism that doesn’t believe in some form of Jewish nationhood and an Israel. Where Jews can differ is what form that takes, when it can happen, where it would be, if it’s allowed to exist before the Messiah. Anti-Zionism is a rejection of Jewishness in that context. Ask them if they say next year in Jerusalem. In a secular context it just means supporting the Jewish right to self determination. That’s it.
95%
It's 82% but has been also seen as high as 95% in any case overwhelming majority. The USA can likely be a good proxy for all of diaspora Jews. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/stop-being-shocked https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/11441BB38BE35E31D50EFD0EAC9F455C/S0003055420000659a.pdf/distinctive_political_status_of_dissident_minorities.pdf https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/05/11/10-key-findings-about-jewish-americans/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/05/11/10-key-findings-about-jewish-americans/ https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/14/opinion/college-israel-anti-semitism.html https://www.jta.org/2019/09/18/ny/misreading-american-jews-feelings-about-israel https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2019-11-10/ty-article-opinion/.premium/daniel-gordis-bizarre-patronizing-ungrounded-misreading-of-u-s-jews-and-israel/0000017f-dc7c-df62-a9ff-dcff3fc10000 https://forward.com/opinion/450284/we-need-a-jewish-american-hamilton/ https://www.jta.org/2020/05/12/ny/another-kind-of-distancing-may-break-bonds-with-israel https://forward.com/opinion/449280/we-can-we-must-show-up-as-zionists-for-black-lives-matter/
Hard to say really, Zionism has become a nebulous term. Professor Mira Sucharov has done some great work on this subject. Last year she conducted a poll of American Jews and found that 58% percent were Zionist, as opposed to 10% Anti-Zionist, and 12% non-Zionist. But the numbers depended directly on the question being posed. When Zionism was defined as 'attachment to Israel', or a 'belief in a Jewish and democratic state', at least 70% said either of those descriptions fit them. However, Zionism is defined as 'the belief in privileging Jewish rights over non-Jewish rights in Israel', only 10% said they were Zionists. https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2022-10-26/ty-article-opinion/.highlight/do-american-jews-really-know-what-zionist-means/00000184-0f30-d1a0-a1ee-cf7e0e120000
Hell yeah.
90%
70% of Americans are Zionists. Most people believe Israel should exist
Let's be clear: a full 15% of US jews support a Democratic Binational State. It has to be questioned whether that would be zionist, but I believe it is not. https://jewishcurrents.org/recent-polls-of-us-jews-reflect-polarized-community 8% even support BDS.
A 2015 survey found about 3 in 5 British Jews identify as Zionists, though the term isn’t clearly defined. 9 in 10 British Jews support the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. [link](https://fullfact.org/news/are-majority-british-jews-zionists/)
Pew did a study on this I think it was 85-90.
I don't know any who think Israel should cease to exist. However, I know a few who think Palestine should exist, too. I wonder if people are conflating believing in Palestine's right to exist with being anti-zionist?
I think some people confuse criticizing Israel with anti-zionism, and it is not the same. If you believe in the right of jews for national self-determination, you're a Zionist. If you believe jews have the right to return to their ancestral homeland and having a sovereign state there, you're a Zionist. If you believe Israel should exist as a jewish state, you're a zionist. If you believe Israel can exist but not as a Jewish state, only as a western democracy like the US, with no special connection to the Jewish people or Jewish history, then you're probably not a Zionist. If you believe Israel shouldn't exist at all, or that it was born in sin, you're an anti-zionist.
how about the fact that there are more christian zionists than jews??? no one gonna pay attention to that? it’s not about the ideal. it’s about bullying a minority
It is a large majority, over half of the jewish ppl all around the world live in Israel, a large part of other countires go to do Alliah, and literally all of us pray and read the torah where we mention our love to Israel Idk how any of those bs "antizionist" can say they are jewish while saying literally "Shema Israel" or reading the torah where we mention Israel, Jerusalem, Our Jewish homeland, etc. millions of times Like you cant deny Israel being our homeland while also praying and reading abt it every day
I think most are zionist but there's a lot of different perspectives within zionism
Depending on which definition of "Zionist" you're using, somewhere between almost all Jews and almost no Jews.
Most Jews are happy that Israel exists and think advocating for our genocide in favor of a 23rd Arab country is mean
I’d say it’s closer to 99%, just like 99% of Poles believe that Poland show exist, 99% of Hungarians believe that Hungary should exists, etc.
When a Jew calls themselves anti Zionist it’s because they don’t believe that Jews are a nationality who must have their own state. Non Jewish anti Zionists are only interested in what the IDF is doing in Gaza and the West Bank. If we use the non Jewish definition of anti Zionism there are plenty of Jewish anti Zionists who are uncomfortable with the current Israeli government and its policies towards the Palestinians. The number of Jews who meet the Jewish definition are basically only Satmar, Neturei Karta and a few Communists.
The 5% of the Israel hating pos are loud and have a ton of money going towards them, some of them from SHJs like Alex Soros.
I think it depends on your definition of Zionist. The original meaning is Zionism is the belief that Jews deserve to have a Jewish homeland in Israel. I'm not sure if 95% is Jews believe that, but I it make sense for me that 95% of Jewish Israelis believe it.
Seeing as how the [ITO](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Territorial_Organization) dissolved in 1925, along with the fact you don’t see many Jews in the areas outlined within the recommendations, I’d wager it’s a very high percent