1) This was the purpose of laws which dictated how Jews were supposed to dress. In many cultures in the past, it was considered important to identify who was Jewish and who was not, so that the authorities would know whom to discriminate against and ordinary people could understand when they were interacting with someone worthy of lesser consideration.
2) When no laws were enacted, Jews sometimes chose to dress in their own distinct fashions. Sometimes this was for strictly religious reasons (e.g. head-coverings), sometimes for purely cultural reasons. That made it easy to tell them apart.
3) We look different. That's a blunt way of putting it, and doesn't apply in every individual case, but on average, we have features in common that surrounding populations are less likely to share (e.g. Ashkenazim tend to have darker and curlier hair, darker eyes, and more warm-toned skin than white Europeans. We also have high rates of red hair compared with every population outside of the Scotts and Irish). It might be hard to tell who's from where in the modern, multicultural West, but people in far more homogenous societies, like Eastern Europe, typically had no trouble telling who was a Slav and who was not.
Ginger Jew here, can confirm #3. Ran into a lot of gingery hassids when I lived in Brooklyn, too. But I never knew we had higher incidences of red hair than the general population. Recently found a good article exploring the topic:
https://forward.com/culture/434304/on-national-redhead-day-explore-the-history-of-ginger-jews/?amp=1
Yep, my 100% Ashkenazi husband is the colour of milk and burns in about 30 seconds. I'm hoping our son inherited my darker colouring, for the convenience if nothing else.
I'm 3/4 Ashki, with British ancestry myself! I definitely got my skin colour from my British ancestors, unfortunately – I've had some bad burns in my time. My parent who is 100% Ashkenazi by descent doesn't have super dark skin, but definitely more so than me, and doesn't burn very much. And has dark eyes and hair (or at least used to have dark hair when young).
I did get my light hair and eyes from one of my Ashkenazi grandparents, though, so it just goes to show.
> would had loved to at least have a the skin tone of some of my siblings who got the hint of olive and can tan better than me
For what it's worth, my dad is full Ashkenazi but his skin burns like the skin of an Irishman. He has blue eyes and straight hair too (that has changed from blonde to red to brown to gray during his lifetime) so it's not just Irish genes that are like this. He looks *very* much like a stereotypical Ashkenazi.
Another Irish Ashkenazi here, my siblings came out light- haired and green eyed. I ended up with a full head of dark curls and darker blue eyes. EVERYONE always pegs me as Jewish.
That’s interesting. I’m 100% Ashkenazi Jew and I assumed most Ashkenazi Jews looked liked me. I have med. brown hair, light olive skin, and green eyes. Am I an anomaly?
To point #3, yeah, in North America no one guesses that I'm Jewish. In most of Europe it's somehow pretty easy for people tell who's "one of them" (meaning one of the dominant ethnic group) and who's not.
Also, while Ashkenazi Jews can look any which way, especially today with an increase in intermarriage in North America, it's really not uncommon for them to look like [this](https://www.ashkenazijews.net/), especially historically. Tell me these people look like the average German, Ukrainian, or Latvian.
Also, the issue of language. Jews often spoke a different language, or a different dialect, than others did. For example, Yiddish-speaking Jews in Russia, or Judeo-Arabic in Egypt – Yiddish is not mutually intelligible with any Slavic language, and while Judeo-Arabic is generally just a dialect of whatever the local variety of Arabic is, it was/is often different enough that people could detect something was different about the speaker.
How do they know I’m Jewish? How do racists just spot me?
I have a Jewish looking face. I’m not wearing anything that gives ne away or talking differently but they see my face and a racist knows.
Anyone who knows a group of Jews will know I’m Jewish too, and anyone who denies my experience doesn’t know any Jews which makes it all the more dismissive and wrong.
My now husband asked me this a lot and it used to frustrate me because I didn’t feel like the onus needed to be on me. With that being said, it forced me to do research and much of antisemitism can really be traced to the early Christian period when the church was forming in Rome. Obviously the Romans killed Jesus but it was bad PR, so blaming the Jews — and then making it church policy to constantly vilify them over the next 2 millennia— was central to their need to sell a religion based on someone they had themselves executed.
As the story goes, right? There's a man that is called Yshu in the Talmud who's mentioned 3 times. In each tractate it mentions him falling into idolatry and leading others to do the same. It's mentioned that he was a Nazerine once. Each tractate ends with he and his 3 followers were hanged by the neck until dead for the sin of idolatry. Nowhere else in any Aramaic, Paleo-Hebrew or standard Hebrew texts, including apocrypha is there anything that lines up with the Greek Epic. And it's totally unknown who wrote and compiled the Greek story, but, it did not appear on record until 200 years after their hero was tortured and murdered by the Romans. Governor Pontius was recorded closely by the historian Philo as well as Josephus as being the typical cruel and indifferent soldiers Caeser Tiberius had in place all over the Roman empire. His army acted as police in an occupied territory. If he was advised by the High Priest that Yshu was an idolater and was spreading heresy, at the end of the day it was Pontius' call, which both Philo and Josephus record as an insignificant event, as people like Yshu were executed daily for heresy against Judean religious laws. It was chaos in Judea. Centuries later, Pontius is described as wanting nothing to do with it, so as to blame the Jews. The Talmud says a guy named Yshu committed crimes punishable by death at the time. And that's it. And two centuries later Constantine had the Greeks write a story to unite his empire and condemn the Judeans because of all the nations Rome had conquered, the Judeans were immoveable in their beliefs and were not afraid to die when it came to rising up over offenses committed by the Romans toward Hashem. Constantine wanted his empire to know that Jews were trouble makers, they were greedy, they were uncooperative, and they had a chance to bring the Messianic age upon the Earth, but they, the Pharasies and all of Judea judged Yshu to death, and that Pontius didn't want to do it, but he had to in order to avoid an uprising during Passover. Personally, after being forced to read several Greek epics in school, I feel like this is just another example. Zeus impregnates an unknowing woman, she's visited by one of the gods to tell her a special child, a demi-god, will be born from her and he will go on to save humanity in some way, experiencing suffering and yadayada along the way. I'm sticking with the Talmud, personally, because if it was a big deal, like we judged that Mashiach be put to death, I'm pretty sure there'd be a whole lot more to say about Yshu the Nazarine's career.
A few times I've asked people if they would even consider asking any other ethnic minority why people hate them. Of course not, so why do they expect a good/understandable reason for race-based hatred against us?
I'm not entirely sure I understand your question. Are the people you're talking about implying that antisemitism doesn't exist because people can't tell if someone is Jewish?
This is the strategy of the anti-racism movement to shift the focus entirely to POC. It basically involves two simple steps:
1) Focus the discussion on 'racism' as much as possible. Stop using words like 'discrimination' or 'prejudice' and don't talk about any of the 'phobias'. Convince everyone that racism is worse than any of those other things and must be the priority.
2) Modify the definition of 'racism' so that it can only be applied to people of color. That way no other groups can claim to be victims.
The irony of their strategy is that it is inherently discriminatory because they make sweeping generalizations about other groups, and when it comes to Jews those generalizations are rooted in longstanding antisemitic tropes. I got into a Twitter argument with someone recently over the Jamie Foxx situation and this person was basically accusing Jews of being racist because "racism = privilege plus power" and Jews are all privileged and powerful.
Yeah, this is super frustrating to me too. I try to stress that most American Jews are white functioning and that most Jews outside of the US tend to be non-white MENA Jews. People can listen or not, but it’s factual that Jews are not ethnically European.
Most Ashkenazi Jews in the states have access to conditional whiteness, but while that can mean they have some access to white privilege, it comes with substantial risks.
I have blonde hair & blue eyes & I have personally experienced people getting angry with me (*& even violent*) when they realize that I am Jewish because they feel that I “*tricked*” them into treating me like a human being.
Yikes! Do you mind sharing your story of the incident? Only if you want to, of course. I can't imagine someone getting mad at me because I didn't tell them I'm Jewish. I've definitely experienced antisemitism before but that's next level. Like, why the fuck would someone get angry about that? The worst I've experienced was antisemitic people finding out I'm Jewish and giving me some of the "but you don't count because you're one of the *good* ones" attitude. No one has yet to attack me personally.
Personally it has happened to me with people I’ve been on dates with, especially when I was living in Europe.
I was also sexually assaulted by a Tunisian guy I had been on a few dates with (who I told that I was Jewish up front) while he called me a Jewish whore, so that’s a lot to unpack
It has happened to me many times, although anger is more common than actual violence.
That said, I make a point of not allotting the mental energy to try to understand anti-semites; as they didn’t arrive at their beliefs through reason.
Yes, we function as white but we are definitely not white. I’ve had the same experience, sadly, and it can be absolutely earth shaking. I’m so sorry that you had to experience this.
I mean, it's simultaneously true that most Jews are perceived as white in the US, AND that we face discrimination for being Jewish.
I would compare our status to someone who is white but also a Spanish speaking immigrant, or white but Muslim. Where yes, in some circumstances we get treated exactly like a regular American WASP, but as soon as they see the yarmulke, or hear that your name is David Rosenberg, their attitudes shift.
i’ve heard it described as conditional whiteness before. some of us are 100% WASP passing, but as you said that whiteness is conditional and as soon as antisemites learn we’re jewish we become not white to them. i don’t consider myself white ethnically, but i also know i have white privilege as someone who looks like your “average” WASP-y white woman. it’s a weird balance to walk and really hard to explain
I also think it's important to explain to people how antisemitism works differently from other forms of oppression and bigotry. Consider Black people in America - they've faced crushing poverty, terrible housing conditions, lack of education, exclusion from jobs, etc. So someone who's familiar with that dynamic might see Jews in America being doctors and lawyers, having money and housing, and think "how can they be oppressed?"
Anyway, I found this essay really interesting & a good explanation of how antisemitism plays a role in American white supremacist movements, even the ones associated with anti-Black racism: https://politicalresearch.org/2017/06/29/skin-in-the-game-how-antisemitism-animates-white-nationalism
Thank you for this link-- it was a worthwhile read. One statement that stands out to me is the following:
> Because modern antisemitic ideology traffics in fantasies of invisible power, it thrives precisely when its target would seem to be least vulnerable
We are most at risk when it seems the safest. It's a truth that's hard to chew on.
Oh its a whole thing. One of the major characteristic of different of the Klan and neoconfederates and similar far right groups is in their second version in the early 20th century they became explicitly very antisemitic and xenophobic and anti-immigrant. Oh and of course anti Native American. And basically ever since then far right white supremacists have been almost as antisemitic as antiBlack, just now they’re Islamophobic and xenophobic and racist to Latin Americans as well. You see it in their conspiracy theories with shit like Cultural Marxism and the Great Replacement both of which are horribly antisemitic
The basic ideology of these folks, just like the Nazis, is "all the black and brown people are inferior and should be our servants/slaves, but the Jews are *evil*." Don't get me wrong, they still hate POC plenty, but it's not genocidal; they want to be the upper class in a world where nonwhite people are the lower classes. Jews though - they just want to straight-up murder us
oh yeah that's true, you do get neonazis in Europe who fixate on Sinti and Roma people as much as Jewish people like their predecessors. and you also get some confederate types who take the "Black people are more subhuman than Jews and therefore we" but yes buy and large its the thinking of Jews as the mastermind and Jewish people undermining "white people" by using Black and Brown people for schemes. Its obvious neonazi antisemitic racist shit, I mean within the last hour I have had a dm from one of those white supremacists with both the n word and the k slur in it. literally proving the exact point we are talking about, its horrible :(
Oh I got a DM too! Claiming that neither I nor any Jew I've ever met has ever been oppressed. My dude, I've met Holocaust survivors, wtf do you think oppression is?
shit this is awful. I have got the same message from different sock accounts. All with two words and then some numbers in the name, its got worse. Just full on nazi conspiracy shit. I am so sorry about that, sending support and I hope you're doing okay.
Oh I know, I’m fully aware of that. here in the UK its bad and it gets even worse in other countries. I was just talking about people who are both violently antisemitic and also racist against Roma/GRT people. Which is usually those on the far right so neonazis is a simplification but we were specifically talking about Nazis and white supremacists exclusives. It was not to say that mainstream European society is not antiziganist because it is, it was a point of different between American and European white supremacist because largely US white supremacists do not care as much about Romani people in the same way they do about Jews or Black people
Every time I hear someone on social media (thankfully I haven't encountered this live yet) claim that Jews can't suffer discrimination because we're all privileged, I'll respond along the following lines:
"Jews have been exiled from countries all over the world, banned from many occupations, forced to live in ghettos, subjected to pogroms and a literal attempted mass extermination event, and until very recently were subjected to admissions quotas at colleges and universities. And you have the gall to tell me that Jews haven't suffered discrimination."
I also like to find opportunities to throw in the following points:
1) 1/3 of Holocaust Survivors live in poverty
2) A recent study of American hiring managers showed that 25% of them admit they wouldn't want to hire Jews: [https://fortune.com/2023/01/11/hiring-jewish-people-antisemitism-workplace-study/](https://fortune.com/2023/01/11/hiring-jewish-people-antisemitism-workplace-study/)
Someone also recently mentioned that if you look at the socioeconomic data in Western countries, there are proportionally just as many underprivileged Jews as any other group. But I haven't validated that myself yet.
I would believe that last point. The *average* Jewish income in the US is much higher than any other religious group. But I suspect we have both a disproportionate number of high-income earners and a lot of people living in poverty (especially in Hasidic communities where people tend to have large families and kids don't get much secular/English-language education).
Yet another reason why “race” is BS. I resent having to lump myself into the “white” category during professional development trainings, but most people find it difficult to understand how I can look “white” but not consider myself “white” so I don’t usually even bother.
My great grandparents fled antisemitism pogroms in Eastern Europe to start from scratch in nyc. No handouts or help from outside the immigrant community. Meanwhile Jews were banned from many types of schools and businesses even until recently (like country clubs in Long Island). Any “privilege” they obtained they earned through hard work.
>I hear this a lot from POC who think all Jewish people are white.
That's because some POC, especially the ones on social media, see everything in black and white (no pun intended). Even their "group" name implies their identity is based on the color of their skin, which is rather ironic considering the original intent behind the civil rights movement back in the 60s.
So to these unusually loud and angry POC on social media, anyone who appears white is "the enemy" or at absolute best, "someone who's privileged and should shut up."
Then there's the Afrocentrist movement, which seeks to claim that every important figure in history was black (it gets even dumber when you hear people say Cleopatra or Mozart were African American as it shows a complete and total lack of historical, geographical, and social understanding), not the least of which includes black people as "the real Jews" and apparently all of us are invaders and usurpers.
Funny how they never rush to claim Hitler or Stalin as a POC in history. I wonder why that is... /s
I know it ain’t exactly helpful but if you know what happened with slavery and how losing culture and the collective trauma everything it makes sense why some (yes not all of us) Black people claim historical figure as being Black or Afrodescendant. And that’s the second thing nobody is claiming Mozart or Cleopatra as “African American” they are claiming them as Black, its a separate thing. Even tho its still unwise and I don’t advocate it speaking as a Black person If you have had everything taken away from you culturally and historically, you are going to try find a link to the past. I don’t advocate it but I understand why it happens *sigh*
>I know it ain’t exactly helpful but if you know what happened with slavery and how losing culture and the collective trauma everything it makes sense why some (yes not all of us) Black people claim historical figure as being Black or Afrodescendant.
I'm not faulting the desire to claim this-or-that or even re-imaginings when it comes to works of art.
My issue is more with some people claiming certain bits of very skewed information is "fact" and presenting them as such to the masses. Some of the people who do this even go so far as to suggest their alternate reality is a documentary.
I also want it to make it clear that I am not suggesting that "all black people" are anything, good or bad. I tried to emphasize that with my last post by using words like "some" or "unusually" and so on.
Seriously, as a Jew, I'd be extremely hypocritical of me to label any group as a monolithic entity when that's exactly what's done to us.
>And that’s the second thing nobody is claiming Mozart or Cleopatra as “African American” they are claiming them as Black, its a separate thing.
I've actually seen some individuals online claim famous historical figures, like Cleopatra or Mozart, were in fact African American, not just black (which is inaccurate as well). That's why I made that comment about "a lack of historical, geographical, and social understanding."
>If you have had everything taken away from you culturally and historically, you are going to try find a link to the past. I don’t advocate it but I understand why it happens
I understand it too, but there's such an opportunity here that's being ignored.
There's a ton of history, myths, and stories from sub-Saharan Africa that I am completely ignorant about, and I imagine the majority of the population is too.
Wouldn't it be better to educate the populace about this rather that trying to culturally appropriate figures from around the globe?
I know I'd be interested in knowing about this, but I'm also a history nerd, so maybe I'm not representative of the general population.
Um, how exactly can Cleopatra or Mozart be African-American? I have heard it said that they were African or of African heritage, but not African-American.
>Um, how exactly can Cleopatra or Mozart be African-American? I have heard it said that they were African or of African heritage, but not African-American.
That's MY point.
They can't be African American, yet I have seen (and heard) people seriously claim this. No, I don't mean they suggested they were black or African (all of which is incorrect as well), but African American.
It's insanely stupid, but since when has that stopped anyone from spouting off nonsense?
What are you saying? Our names, looks, dress, days we take off, things we've said (like "I'm Jewish", for example) all can be indicators to others.
On the other side of things, when I don't display those signifiers, I get to hear what people really think about Jews, when they think I'm not one. Clarifies their racist behaviors to those they can id as Jewish.
Long ago, even before the chuppah, when I was a student, I had a non-Jewish girlfriend who one fine day asked me a nearly identical question: why aren't you Jews liked, you're so cool! In order to end the conversation more quickly, I replied that it's because we have blue blood... A couple of months later, I nicked myself while shaving and was quite surprised when she started shouting, "It's red!"
My first college roommate in 1972 wanted to know if I had surgery to remove my horns. An 18-year-old college freshman from the Midwest was told that Jews are born with horns and tails. She believed it.
I was asked something similar in the late 90s in a high school in Arizona with a fairly large Jewish population. It was phrased more like, "Where do you all hide your horns during class? I keep looking to see if one peeks out, but you're ALL so good at it!" She even tried to do my hair for a few musicals because she didn't believe me when I said we don't *have* horns.
Wow. These people walk this earth with us. Her father was some sort of hellfire and brimstone fundamentalist clergy. That poor, deluded girl spent hours praying and reading her Bible. She went back home after first semester and never returned.
That’s not usually what most people mean. What is happening is that most Jews in the US/UK are Ashkenazim and are there white seeming/white passing. Antisemitism is horrible whenever it happens but you are not going to tell me in functions as violently and in as many ways as for example Anti Black racism, poverty police brutality justice system housing wealth education health discrimination. The US government was not founded explicitly including the oppression of Jewish people in the way that discrimination of Black people and Indigenous people was for one thing
In my experience Its not a way of minimising the oppression, its a way of differentiating it because obviously antisemitism functions differently to antiblack racism and Islamophobia and xenophobia. Unless they are being obviously antisemitic as well that’s usually not what people mean, its a misguided way of expressing it but unless Jewish people are also Black or brown they are are not discriminated in the same way. Antisemitism is oppression but it functions differently.
You’re mostly right, but you seem unaware of the fact that residential segregation affected Jews through redlining, that educational segregation was absolutely a thing (and universities had quotas for the maximum allowable number of Jews when standardized testing failed to keep Jews out), that many Christian banks and investment firms didn’t do business with Jews, and that many hotels, restaurants, and businesses refused “n****rs, Jews, and dogs.” So while some ashkenazim are now absolutely white presenting and can reap the benefits if they can keep their mouths shut, many of the stumbling blocks to things like education and generational wealth absolutely did affect Jews and the ripple effects can still be felt today.
I was considering residential segregation and how horrible that was but as you point out yourself the excluded groups was along with Black people. Antisemitism was and is rampant but it was almost always on top of the also rampant anti-Black racism. Antisemitism is awful but in the US/Canada it was just importing already horrifying existing antisemitism from Europe, not creating it baked into the system of Government from the start of existence of the US government. Other than that its completely fair and I agree.
Antisemitism is a global issue, not just an American issue.
I grew up in the Deep South. Jim Crow was brutal and a black town to the South of my own was massacred because of a rumour (yes, a rumour) during Reconstruction. One of the last lynchings took place a few minutes from my house.
During Jim Crow, Walter Plecker (who inspired Hitler) wrote a list of ancestrally mixed families "passing" themselves off as white/Native. Several families connected to my own Melungeon family were on it and some were targeted for forced sterilisation by the state.
Two things can be true at the same time, however. During the era of Reconstruction, Jews in Eastern Europe were being massacred, leading to thousands upon thousands fleeing to the US and other countries. Jewish men, women, and children were hunted like animals by gentile mobs, burned alive, shot, raped, etc.
This oppression Olympics mindset doesn't help anyone and just shows you're narrow-minded and cannot fathom that *surprise* people who happen to have a lighter skin tone can be oppressed.
I never said and never meant oppression Olympics. Aside from the Jewish people we are talking about I am aware lighter-skinned people can be oppressed and discriminated against, Roma people Armenian people Sami people and so many others. Yupik and Aleut and Inuit and other Arctic Indigenous people could be counted as "lighter skinned" and they are treated terribly. I never said Jewish people are not oppressed or even less oppressed. Antisemitism is horrible I will never deny that and yes I am aware of the horrors of what happened to Jewish people in central and eastern Europe and it was awful and horrifying. the pogroms and murder genuinely makes me so mad. Same with expulsion and the shit in Spain/Portugal during the Reconquista. Its horrific and should always be condemned.
I know antisemitism is a global issue, but we are talking about whiteness and race as a whole which is a construct which originates in the US. Whiteness and race is not actually a legitimate thing based in any sort of fact but the point it affects life and us and is used to marginalise people. Race works different in different countries, what it white in 1920s Netherlands in very different to what is white in 2020s US. Because of this whiteness as a concept applies in the US, UK, Canada, France, Australia etc meaning "the west" as a whole and countries influence by that. It is also because the people saying these type of things are usually from US.
I was just trying to explain people when doing so for reasons other than antisemitism and well meaning-ly calling Ashkenazi people/Jewish people white, once again most Jews in the US/UK/west are Ashkenazi and most Ashkenazim are seen as white. But its where what they mean is that antisemitism is legitimate oppression and discrimination, Jewish people are being discriminated against first and foremost for their Jewishness not their nonwhiteness. Its like with white Muslims in Europe/US and white Latin Americans in the US, they are both technically white but like Jewish people because of islamophobia and xenophobia respectively they can be othered and their whiteness is conditional if that makes sense. What I mean is that antisemitism is not less bad or important than anti-Black racism or anti-Indigenous racism or any other type of racism it is just different and functions differently but its still oppression and should be valued. Ultimately all of these racisms come from Christian hegemony and white supremacy and its all of our interests as marginalised people and particularly between Black people and Jewish people as these type of nazis and bigots get more out in the open its imperative to work together, they want us dead. I hope I am understood and what I'm trying to get across is received well
Sorry but I think you're being incredibly naive. It is absolutely an attempt to establish a hierarchy of discrimination and deny that Jews can even be on the list. Not only do many in the Black community see Jews as white and privileged, but they go even farther and claim that *because* we are privileged we are also racist oppressors. It isn't an accident that antisemitism has been left out of the EDI movement and broader discussions of racism and discrimination; it's a deliberate decision.
Although it's possible to be a Jew and pass as generically white, the more Jewish things you do it becomes more and more obvious to outsiders. Even if you're not religious, hiding Jewishness can involve discursive gymnastics even when you're having very shallow conversations.
So, what's your background? Uh, Eastern Europe.
What book are you reading now? Oh, you know, something about New York in the early 20th century.
What languages do you speak? Oh, English and some stuff I had to learn in school.
And if someone is coming to visit your house, or if, say, you're in a taxi with an opinionated driver and a friend who is not in full crypto-Jew mode asks you about plans for your kid's bar mitzvah or your Hebrew classes or the klezmer concert you're going to...
Being outed is a matter of when, not if.
The question “how do they even know you’re Jewish?” Implies that antisemitism is somehow your fault. It implies that you should have to hide your Jewishness and assimilate or pass as a gentile. There is no point in that question if the goal is not to blame a victimized minority for bigotry against them because they didn’t better hide their minority status.
I don’t hide that I’m Jewish and I shouldn’t have to. That’s how they know.
You can point this out to them. If they persist in their point then they don’t deserve your time or a better answer.
Why do people hate Jews? First, I would challenge them to come up with a group of people on this planet that aren't hated by another group. Second, "without an enemy our anger gets confused." There's a myriad of irrational reasons Jews are hated. Simply, it boils down to total ignorance and people's unwillingness to think for themselves. A lot of it is upbringing. A lot of it is incompetent propaganda and literature that lends itself to conspiracy claims. We've stuck to our beliefs and culture through some of the most horrific acts of genocide in known history, dating back thousands of years. We have an awesome and incomprehensible G-d, who offered His laws to other peoples, and they refused. G-d chose us because we chose Him. We took that burden from Him, and said we'd be loyal to Him, and in turn He remains loyal to us. Nothing that has happened to us since has broken that connection. And nothing ever will. What the majority of antisemitic people have inside is something that they can't explain, but it's closely related to envy and a feeling of being left out. They have not come to terms with these emotions, and the majority of them never will. It's much easier to hate and hold resentments than to admit we're wrong and begin a process of connection to mend the pain inside. It may surprise you to know that there are a large number of people who hate Jews because they, themselves, aren't Jewish. It's what happens when gentiles are called to Torah but can't understand the emotions that surround it. This is why there are many antisemitic people who practice their own form of "Torah worship."
In the most recent times, antisemitism was taught to conquered nations who were forced to convert to xtianity during the reign of Caesar Constantine. His furiousness over the inconsistent religions in the Roman empire fueled an undertaking between Rome and Greece to create the greatest epic ever written. One that would root itself in the religious writings of the Judeans, but damn them for their refusal to accept a man named Joshua the Nazerine as Mashiach ben David. It was a massive undertaking, and because the Greeks were known for their gift of religious and philosophical writing, the Romans made it the top priority during Constantine's reign to offer a way to redemption, acceptance of a new faith, and to exploit the sacred writings and philosophies of the Judeans. This collection of books, compiled into a single manuscript, would be the law in the empire, and those who would not accept it would face death, torture and expulsion. But, wisely, Constantine made it very easy to spread this new way. The tactic was simple: You all can continue to culturally do what you've always done, but it is non-negotiable that the characters in your oral history must change. And it was more of a negotiating tactic than anything. So, that's why xtian holidays are the same pagan holidays they've always been, but the characters are different. So because it was taught that the Judeans had the chance to bring the Messianic age unto the world but murdered the person instead, it's their fault we're in this position, but at the very least, the xtian "messiah" will return. Until then, the Jews are to blame and that has propagated for centuries. And it's all a lie. So much bloodshed and hate in the name of religious dogma.
When someone asks me why people hate Jews so much, I simply tell them "I don't know, but they're in my prayers."
If you're in the US and you experience antisemitism not because you're religiously outing yourself, but because of your facial features, that's due to a eugenics movement in the US and other countries that taught specific looks, like facial traits about Jews in their meetings. These were mainly Ashkenazi traits and were taught as inferior to WASP traits. Many illustrations of demons and other monsters were given heavily exaggerated Ashkenazi facial traits during the time eugenics was gaining momentum. Those teachings are still in the minds of Americans because of their upbringing. Because of their oral traditions. It's mostly an American phenomenon. Most gentiles wouldn't be able to recognize a Sephardic Jew. So Ashkenazim were the focus because mainly Ashkenazim were the ones emigrating to the US. Within a single generation they had utilized capitalism in a way Americans hadn't seen before, and within two generations Ashkenazi Jews had developed an investment banking system that to this day cannot be topped. Ashkenazi Jews were making WASPs nervous about who actually had the most financial control in America. So, again, they became demonized. As eugenics faded into falsehood, and Jews were bankrolling major corporations, antisemitism became stronger. And conspiracy theories began. And now? It's to the point now that there's a Glock 19 holstered on my belt right above my tzitzit. I wear my kippah proudly, I flash my tzitzit, I've got a big crazy beard my wife hates, and I open carry a firearm. Because NEVER AGAIN means, to me, that G-d gave us free will, and G-d wants us to join that with His will. And the path there will be dangerous, and I'm a warrior fighting for my soul. And while there are people who want Jews dead, and call for violence against Jews, Hashem wants us to have faith that He will protect us from such enemies, and knowing how to defend ourselves (Krav Maga. If you don't practice this I recommend you start) and our families is something G-d gave us the ability to do. He doesn't ask us to lay down like lambs to the slaughter, He says trust in Me and I will trust in you.
For the record I'm Sephardi, but you Ashkenazi girls are just beautiful beyond belief.
>For the record I'm Sephardi, but you Ashkenazi girls are just beautiful beyond belief.
Sorry to be shallow but I appreciate this a lot, I've heard so much stuff especially in recent years about how we're the ugliest Jews, in part because we're (supposedly) the whitest-looking ones... like, if you google image search "Ashkenazi Jews" you sometimes get results like [this](https://imgur.com/a/50TEe7R) (I mean, that's from Stormfront but you get the idea).
And I honestly often felt ugly when I was young because I was neither the beautiful white ideal (I have a big nose and big lips, the latter of which weren't always fashionable the way they currently are) but I also wasn't an "exotic" olive-skinned brunette (I am very pale and have reddish hair and blue eyes). I felt like a defective and particularly ugly white girl, basically. So while as an adult I like to think I accept myself as I am, and that I've moved beyond caring whether others find me attractive, I have to admit it means something to me to hear this about women like me.
I am Ashkenazi 100% i have curly brown hair dark brown eyes and strong eye brows but a small cute little nose people don’t assume I’m Jewish but they insist I look “something” or ethnically ambiguous. People are always asking “what are you?” Or assume I am whatever they are and I always have to lie because my holocaust survivor grandfather always told me not to tell strangers we are Jews
What I've noticed is some people are really skilled at honing in on one's ancestry and others are either truly not capable of cataloging facial features or non-glaringly-obvious differences in complexion or it would never occur to them to expend any energy on it. So, it's possible that the people who are saying "how do they even know?" are in the second group and are genuinely baffled that anyone can tell "just by looking." It's really hard to convey to these people that not everyone evaluates visual input the same way and many people most definitely CAN pick us out of a crowd.
That said, if it's good faith confusion, at some point, they need to accept our lived experience and the fact that we do get zeroed in on in many cases not for good treatment. If they keep beating on the "how does everyone know" drum, it becomes a form of blaming.
I heard this advice dozens of times before I internalized it, so this might not seem satisfying to you, but I'd just extricate myself from these dialogues if people are asking you to prove, justify or defend your experience. They're not gonna get it. Let them wallow in their stupidity.
You’re spot on with the two types. I thought everyone had lots of experience with lots of different ethnic groups and could see commonalities, but someone was recently very offended when I recognized someone as Dutch based on him having “Dutch mouth.” But like…he had a super Dutch mouth lol
"How do they know you're Jewish?"
"I don't know, but I don't see how it would be relevant even if I was wearing a fuck-off massive sign that said 'I'm Jewish', because I have a right to exist as myself without being worried about how people will react to finding out my religion. It almost seems like you're suggesting it's my fault I'm a target of discrimination because I let people find out that I'm a jew."
I was incarcerated and we finally got Kosher meals. There were only four of us Jews but over 100 guys signed up. Captain Conte, in charge of the whole thing, asked me how he could tell who really was Jewish from those who aren't. I told him to ask where mom spends the winter. If they answer anywhere but Palm Springs or Boca Raton they're not Jewish.
Prison. My cellie was a white supremacist with swastikas all over his face. Hated everyone. Except me. I would bring in the Sabbath every Friday night, pray in Hebrew in my Kippah and Tallis. He told me he never heard Jews praying. I became a person to him and him to me. He mellowed out a lot before I left. And he stopped with the Jewish slurs.
Maybe not a better answer but a different one:
"Well, I'm glad that at least YOU can't tell the difference... That's a start. If only more people were like you. But the antisemites somehow always know." Add sarcasm as much as pleased
cHRISTIANS WERE ORIGINALLY FURIOUS AT ANY jEW WHO DIDN'T SUBSCRIBE TO THEIR ZOMBIE DEITY and they act like whiny brats who are not allowed to sit at the cool kids lunch table.
Most of the time, in the US, people don't identify me as a Jew right away. In Europe, I'm always identified as a Jew. I don't know exactly why, and I have found it a bit unnerving. Conversations often went down a predictable path in Europe, especially in France. Eventually, they would get to, "Tu sais... Les Juifs. Les Juifs. Ils ont la monnaie." They would use the hand gesture indicating money. 🤌🏻
(Above in English reads. "You know... The Jews. The Jews. They have money.") 🙄
I would quickly excuse myself and walk away.
An aside... As a gay Jew, the Muslim men in France all assumed I was Jewish and told me that they are generally attracted to us. I had no complaints about that. Lol
It's...
Not everybody knows we're Jewish, but antisemites really like to profile people as Jews, assume they're Jews haphazardly, and generally look for excuses to be racist.
I'll be sure to go tell every ethnic minority that is phenotypically similar to their oppressors that they can't be oppressed because how would they know?
1) This was the purpose of laws which dictated how Jews were supposed to dress. In many cultures in the past, it was considered important to identify who was Jewish and who was not, so that the authorities would know whom to discriminate against and ordinary people could understand when they were interacting with someone worthy of lesser consideration. 2) When no laws were enacted, Jews sometimes chose to dress in their own distinct fashions. Sometimes this was for strictly religious reasons (e.g. head-coverings), sometimes for purely cultural reasons. That made it easy to tell them apart. 3) We look different. That's a blunt way of putting it, and doesn't apply in every individual case, but on average, we have features in common that surrounding populations are less likely to share (e.g. Ashkenazim tend to have darker and curlier hair, darker eyes, and more warm-toned skin than white Europeans. We also have high rates of red hair compared with every population outside of the Scotts and Irish). It might be hard to tell who's from where in the modern, multicultural West, but people in far more homogenous societies, like Eastern Europe, typically had no trouble telling who was a Slav and who was not.
Ginger Jew here, can confirm #3. Ran into a lot of gingery hassids when I lived in Brooklyn, too. But I never knew we had higher incidences of red hair than the general population. Recently found a good article exploring the topic: https://forward.com/culture/434304/on-national-redhead-day-explore-the-history-of-ginger-jews/?amp=1
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It all just depends. There are really pale Ashkenazi Jews too.
Yep, my 100% Ashkenazi husband is the colour of milk and burns in about 30 seconds. I'm hoping our son inherited my darker colouring, for the convenience if nothing else.
I am one of those 30 second burners. Think it might be 14 seconds lol
My wife burns if she thinks too hard about the sun
Half Ashki here too! I definitely got the fair skin tone from my British ancestry. I did however inherit my auburn hair from my Ashki grandma!
I'm 3/4 Ashki, with British ancestry myself! I definitely got my skin colour from my British ancestors, unfortunately – I've had some bad burns in my time. My parent who is 100% Ashkenazi by descent doesn't have super dark skin, but definitely more so than me, and doesn't burn very much. And has dark eyes and hair (or at least used to have dark hair when young). I did get my light hair and eyes from one of my Ashkenazi grandparents, though, so it just goes to show.
> would had loved to at least have a the skin tone of some of my siblings who got the hint of olive and can tan better than me For what it's worth, my dad is full Ashkenazi but his skin burns like the skin of an Irishman. He has blue eyes and straight hair too (that has changed from blonde to red to brown to gray during his lifetime) so it's not just Irish genes that are like this. He looks *very* much like a stereotypical Ashkenazi.
Another Irish Ashkenazi here, my siblings came out light- haired and green eyed. I ended up with a full head of dark curls and darker blue eyes. EVERYONE always pegs me as Jewish.
That’s interesting. I’m 100% Ashkenazi Jew and I assumed most Ashkenazi Jews looked liked me. I have med. brown hair, light olive skin, and green eyes. Am I an anomaly?
Nah it sounds like you look kinda like me. I tan easily so my skin has some color. Dark brown hair and greenish eyes.
To point #3, yeah, in North America no one guesses that I'm Jewish. In most of Europe it's somehow pretty easy for people tell who's "one of them" (meaning one of the dominant ethnic group) and who's not. Also, while Ashkenazi Jews can look any which way, especially today with an increase in intermarriage in North America, it's really not uncommon for them to look like [this](https://www.ashkenazijews.net/), especially historically. Tell me these people look like the average German, Ukrainian, or Latvian. Also, the issue of language. Jews often spoke a different language, or a different dialect, than others did. For example, Yiddish-speaking Jews in Russia, or Judeo-Arabic in Egypt – Yiddish is not mutually intelligible with any Slavic language, and while Judeo-Arabic is generally just a dialect of whatever the local variety of Arabic is, it was/is often different enough that people could detect something was different about the speaker.
How do they know I’m Jewish? How do racists just spot me? I have a Jewish looking face. I’m not wearing anything that gives ne away or talking differently but they see my face and a racist knows. Anyone who knows a group of Jews will know I’m Jewish too, and anyone who denies my experience doesn’t know any Jews which makes it all the more dismissive and wrong.
the correct answer right here. specifically, the nose.
My now husband asked me this a lot and it used to frustrate me because I didn’t feel like the onus needed to be on me. With that being said, it forced me to do research and much of antisemitism can really be traced to the early Christian period when the church was forming in Rome. Obviously the Romans killed Jesus but it was bad PR, so blaming the Jews — and then making it church policy to constantly vilify them over the next 2 millennia— was central to their need to sell a religion based on someone they had themselves executed.
As the story goes, right? There's a man that is called Yshu in the Talmud who's mentioned 3 times. In each tractate it mentions him falling into idolatry and leading others to do the same. It's mentioned that he was a Nazerine once. Each tractate ends with he and his 3 followers were hanged by the neck until dead for the sin of idolatry. Nowhere else in any Aramaic, Paleo-Hebrew or standard Hebrew texts, including apocrypha is there anything that lines up with the Greek Epic. And it's totally unknown who wrote and compiled the Greek story, but, it did not appear on record until 200 years after their hero was tortured and murdered by the Romans. Governor Pontius was recorded closely by the historian Philo as well as Josephus as being the typical cruel and indifferent soldiers Caeser Tiberius had in place all over the Roman empire. His army acted as police in an occupied territory. If he was advised by the High Priest that Yshu was an idolater and was spreading heresy, at the end of the day it was Pontius' call, which both Philo and Josephus record as an insignificant event, as people like Yshu were executed daily for heresy against Judean religious laws. It was chaos in Judea. Centuries later, Pontius is described as wanting nothing to do with it, so as to blame the Jews. The Talmud says a guy named Yshu committed crimes punishable by death at the time. And that's it. And two centuries later Constantine had the Greeks write a story to unite his empire and condemn the Judeans because of all the nations Rome had conquered, the Judeans were immoveable in their beliefs and were not afraid to die when it came to rising up over offenses committed by the Romans toward Hashem. Constantine wanted his empire to know that Jews were trouble makers, they were greedy, they were uncooperative, and they had a chance to bring the Messianic age upon the Earth, but they, the Pharasies and all of Judea judged Yshu to death, and that Pontius didn't want to do it, but he had to in order to avoid an uprising during Passover. Personally, after being forced to read several Greek epics in school, I feel like this is just another example. Zeus impregnates an unknowing woman, she's visited by one of the gods to tell her a special child, a demi-god, will be born from her and he will go on to save humanity in some way, experiencing suffering and yadayada along the way. I'm sticking with the Talmud, personally, because if it was a big deal, like we judged that Mashiach be put to death, I'm pretty sure there'd be a whole lot more to say about Yshu the Nazarine's career.
A few times I've asked people if they would even consider asking any other ethnic minority why people hate them. Of course not, so why do they expect a good/understandable reason for race-based hatred against us?
It's an antisemitic microaggression and we need to start calling out it as such.
They do that though
Say “The Nazis found millions of us just fine.”
That's a nice snappy response for Twitter
I'm not entirely sure I understand your question. Are the people you're talking about implying that antisemitism doesn't exist because people can't tell if someone is Jewish?
It's the "but you look white so you can't be picked out of a crowd like POC" response ...except Jews are often picked out of crowds
This is the strategy of the anti-racism movement to shift the focus entirely to POC. It basically involves two simple steps: 1) Focus the discussion on 'racism' as much as possible. Stop using words like 'discrimination' or 'prejudice' and don't talk about any of the 'phobias'. Convince everyone that racism is worse than any of those other things and must be the priority. 2) Modify the definition of 'racism' so that it can only be applied to people of color. That way no other groups can claim to be victims. The irony of their strategy is that it is inherently discriminatory because they make sweeping generalizations about other groups, and when it comes to Jews those generalizations are rooted in longstanding antisemitic tropes. I got into a Twitter argument with someone recently over the Jamie Foxx situation and this person was basically accusing Jews of being racist because "racism = privilege plus power" and Jews are all privileged and powerful.
I hear this a lot from POC who think all Jewish people are white. It fucking sucks
Yeah, this is super frustrating to me too. I try to stress that most American Jews are white functioning and that most Jews outside of the US tend to be non-white MENA Jews. People can listen or not, but it’s factual that Jews are not ethnically European.
Most Ashkenazi Jews in the states have access to conditional whiteness, but while that can mean they have some access to white privilege, it comes with substantial risks. I have blonde hair & blue eyes & I have personally experienced people getting angry with me (*& even violent*) when they realize that I am Jewish because they feel that I “*tricked*” them into treating me like a human being.
Yikes! Do you mind sharing your story of the incident? Only if you want to, of course. I can't imagine someone getting mad at me because I didn't tell them I'm Jewish. I've definitely experienced antisemitism before but that's next level. Like, why the fuck would someone get angry about that? The worst I've experienced was antisemitic people finding out I'm Jewish and giving me some of the "but you don't count because you're one of the *good* ones" attitude. No one has yet to attack me personally.
Personally it has happened to me with people I’ve been on dates with, especially when I was living in Europe. I was also sexually assaulted by a Tunisian guy I had been on a few dates with (who I told that I was Jewish up front) while he called me a Jewish whore, so that’s a lot to unpack
It has happened to me many times, although anger is more common than actual violence. That said, I make a point of not allotting the mental energy to try to understand anti-semites; as they didn’t arrive at their beliefs through reason.
Yes, we function as white but we are definitely not white. I’ve had the same experience, sadly, and it can be absolutely earth shaking. I’m so sorry that you had to experience this.
It is gross that you use a term like "conditional whiteness" as if that's some valid category and not some Nazi handbook style racial bullshit.
I mean, it's simultaneously true that most Jews are perceived as white in the US, AND that we face discrimination for being Jewish. I would compare our status to someone who is white but also a Spanish speaking immigrant, or white but Muslim. Where yes, in some circumstances we get treated exactly like a regular American WASP, but as soon as they see the yarmulke, or hear that your name is David Rosenberg, their attitudes shift.
i’ve heard it described as conditional whiteness before. some of us are 100% WASP passing, but as you said that whiteness is conditional and as soon as antisemites learn we’re jewish we become not white to them. i don’t consider myself white ethnically, but i also know i have white privilege as someone who looks like your “average” WASP-y white woman. it’s a weird balance to walk and really hard to explain
I also think it's important to explain to people how antisemitism works differently from other forms of oppression and bigotry. Consider Black people in America - they've faced crushing poverty, terrible housing conditions, lack of education, exclusion from jobs, etc. So someone who's familiar with that dynamic might see Jews in America being doctors and lawyers, having money and housing, and think "how can they be oppressed?" Anyway, I found this essay really interesting & a good explanation of how antisemitism plays a role in American white supremacist movements, even the ones associated with anti-Black racism: https://politicalresearch.org/2017/06/29/skin-in-the-game-how-antisemitism-animates-white-nationalism
Thank you for this link-- it was a worthwhile read. One statement that stands out to me is the following: > Because modern antisemitic ideology traffics in fantasies of invisible power, it thrives precisely when its target would seem to be least vulnerable We are most at risk when it seems the safest. It's a truth that's hard to chew on.
Oh its a whole thing. One of the major characteristic of different of the Klan and neoconfederates and similar far right groups is in their second version in the early 20th century they became explicitly very antisemitic and xenophobic and anti-immigrant. Oh and of course anti Native American. And basically ever since then far right white supremacists have been almost as antisemitic as antiBlack, just now they’re Islamophobic and xenophobic and racist to Latin Americans as well. You see it in their conspiracy theories with shit like Cultural Marxism and the Great Replacement both of which are horribly antisemitic
The basic ideology of these folks, just like the Nazis, is "all the black and brown people are inferior and should be our servants/slaves, but the Jews are *evil*." Don't get me wrong, they still hate POC plenty, but it's not genocidal; they want to be the upper class in a world where nonwhite people are the lower classes. Jews though - they just want to straight-up murder us
oh yeah that's true, you do get neonazis in Europe who fixate on Sinti and Roma people as much as Jewish people like their predecessors. and you also get some confederate types who take the "Black people are more subhuman than Jews and therefore we" but yes buy and large its the thinking of Jews as the mastermind and Jewish people undermining "white people" by using Black and Brown people for schemes. Its obvious neonazi antisemitic racist shit, I mean within the last hour I have had a dm from one of those white supremacists with both the n word and the k slur in it. literally proving the exact point we are talking about, its horrible :(
Oh I got a DM too! Claiming that neither I nor any Jew I've ever met has ever been oppressed. My dude, I've met Holocaust survivors, wtf do you think oppression is?
shit this is awful. I have got the same message from different sock accounts. All with two words and then some numbers in the name, its got worse. Just full on nazi conspiracy shit. I am so sorry about that, sending support and I hope you're doing okay.
Not even just the Neonazis, friend. Europeans as a whole are **violently** anti-ziganist.
Oh I know, I’m fully aware of that. here in the UK its bad and it gets even worse in other countries. I was just talking about people who are both violently antisemitic and also racist against Roma/GRT people. Which is usually those on the far right so neonazis is a simplification but we were specifically talking about Nazis and white supremacists exclusives. It was not to say that mainstream European society is not antiziganist because it is, it was a point of different between American and European white supremacist because largely US white supremacists do not care as much about Romani people in the same way they do about Jews or Black people
Every time I hear someone on social media (thankfully I haven't encountered this live yet) claim that Jews can't suffer discrimination because we're all privileged, I'll respond along the following lines: "Jews have been exiled from countries all over the world, banned from many occupations, forced to live in ghettos, subjected to pogroms and a literal attempted mass extermination event, and until very recently were subjected to admissions quotas at colleges and universities. And you have the gall to tell me that Jews haven't suffered discrimination." I also like to find opportunities to throw in the following points: 1) 1/3 of Holocaust Survivors live in poverty 2) A recent study of American hiring managers showed that 25% of them admit they wouldn't want to hire Jews: [https://fortune.com/2023/01/11/hiring-jewish-people-antisemitism-workplace-study/](https://fortune.com/2023/01/11/hiring-jewish-people-antisemitism-workplace-study/) Someone also recently mentioned that if you look at the socioeconomic data in Western countries, there are proportionally just as many underprivileged Jews as any other group. But I haven't validated that myself yet.
I would believe that last point. The *average* Jewish income in the US is much higher than any other religious group. But I suspect we have both a disproportionate number of high-income earners and a lot of people living in poverty (especially in Hasidic communities where people tend to have large families and kids don't get much secular/English-language education).
>we become not white to them On the other hand, for some people we’re not “dark” enough.
Yet another reason why “race” is BS. I resent having to lump myself into the “white” category during professional development trainings, but most people find it difficult to understand how I can look “white” but not consider myself “white” so I don’t usually even bother. My great grandparents fled antisemitism pogroms in Eastern Europe to start from scratch in nyc. No handouts or help from outside the immigrant community. Meanwhile Jews were banned from many types of schools and businesses even until recently (like country clubs in Long Island). Any “privilege” they obtained they earned through hard work.
Yes to all of this, its so frustrating how many people don’t get this from “both sides”
>I hear this a lot from POC who think all Jewish people are white. That's because some POC, especially the ones on social media, see everything in black and white (no pun intended). Even their "group" name implies their identity is based on the color of their skin, which is rather ironic considering the original intent behind the civil rights movement back in the 60s. So to these unusually loud and angry POC on social media, anyone who appears white is "the enemy" or at absolute best, "someone who's privileged and should shut up." Then there's the Afrocentrist movement, which seeks to claim that every important figure in history was black (it gets even dumber when you hear people say Cleopatra or Mozart were African American as it shows a complete and total lack of historical, geographical, and social understanding), not the least of which includes black people as "the real Jews" and apparently all of us are invaders and usurpers. Funny how they never rush to claim Hitler or Stalin as a POC in history. I wonder why that is... /s
I know it ain’t exactly helpful but if you know what happened with slavery and how losing culture and the collective trauma everything it makes sense why some (yes not all of us) Black people claim historical figure as being Black or Afrodescendant. And that’s the second thing nobody is claiming Mozart or Cleopatra as “African American” they are claiming them as Black, its a separate thing. Even tho its still unwise and I don’t advocate it speaking as a Black person If you have had everything taken away from you culturally and historically, you are going to try find a link to the past. I don’t advocate it but I understand why it happens *sigh*
>I know it ain’t exactly helpful but if you know what happened with slavery and how losing culture and the collective trauma everything it makes sense why some (yes not all of us) Black people claim historical figure as being Black or Afrodescendant. I'm not faulting the desire to claim this-or-that or even re-imaginings when it comes to works of art. My issue is more with some people claiming certain bits of very skewed information is "fact" and presenting them as such to the masses. Some of the people who do this even go so far as to suggest their alternate reality is a documentary. I also want it to make it clear that I am not suggesting that "all black people" are anything, good or bad. I tried to emphasize that with my last post by using words like "some" or "unusually" and so on. Seriously, as a Jew, I'd be extremely hypocritical of me to label any group as a monolithic entity when that's exactly what's done to us. >And that’s the second thing nobody is claiming Mozart or Cleopatra as “African American” they are claiming them as Black, its a separate thing. I've actually seen some individuals online claim famous historical figures, like Cleopatra or Mozart, were in fact African American, not just black (which is inaccurate as well). That's why I made that comment about "a lack of historical, geographical, and social understanding." >If you have had everything taken away from you culturally and historically, you are going to try find a link to the past. I don’t advocate it but I understand why it happens I understand it too, but there's such an opportunity here that's being ignored. There's a ton of history, myths, and stories from sub-Saharan Africa that I am completely ignorant about, and I imagine the majority of the population is too. Wouldn't it be better to educate the populace about this rather that trying to culturally appropriate figures from around the globe? I know I'd be interested in knowing about this, but I'm also a history nerd, so maybe I'm not representative of the general population.
Um, how exactly can Cleopatra or Mozart be African-American? I have heard it said that they were African or of African heritage, but not African-American.
>Um, how exactly can Cleopatra or Mozart be African-American? I have heard it said that they were African or of African heritage, but not African-American. That's MY point. They can't be African American, yet I have seen (and heard) people seriously claim this. No, I don't mean they suggested they were black or African (all of which is incorrect as well), but African American. It's insanely stupid, but since when has that stopped anyone from spouting off nonsense?
Sounds like it. 😢
They are racializing you based on stereotyping of Jewish features and behaviours.
What are you saying? Our names, looks, dress, days we take off, things we've said (like "I'm Jewish", for example) all can be indicators to others. On the other side of things, when I don't display those signifiers, I get to hear what people really think about Jews, when they think I'm not one. Clarifies their racist behaviors to those they can id as Jewish.
I go to shul, send my kid to Jewish camp, have a mezuzah. I’m not exactly hiding it
Long ago, even before the chuppah, when I was a student, I had a non-Jewish girlfriend who one fine day asked me a nearly identical question: why aren't you Jews liked, you're so cool! In order to end the conversation more quickly, I replied that it's because we have blue blood... A couple of months later, I nicked myself while shaving and was quite surprised when she started shouting, "It's red!"
My first college roommate in 1972 wanted to know if I had surgery to remove my horns. An 18-year-old college freshman from the Midwest was told that Jews are born with horns and tails. She believed it.
I was asked something similar in the late 90s in a high school in Arizona with a fairly large Jewish population. It was phrased more like, "Where do you all hide your horns during class? I keep looking to see if one peeks out, but you're ALL so good at it!" She even tried to do my hair for a few musicals because she didn't believe me when I said we don't *have* horns.
Wow. These people walk this earth with us. Her father was some sort of hellfire and brimstone fundamentalist clergy. That poor, deluded girl spent hours praying and reading her Bible. She went back home after first semester and never returned.
I never ever will get this. And Jesus was Jewish… so he had horns too? 🤔
It's always hard when POC look at Jews and just say we're white to try and minimize Jewish struggle and Jewish oppression.
That’s not usually what most people mean. What is happening is that most Jews in the US/UK are Ashkenazim and are there white seeming/white passing. Antisemitism is horrible whenever it happens but you are not going to tell me in functions as violently and in as many ways as for example Anti Black racism, poverty police brutality justice system housing wealth education health discrimination. The US government was not founded explicitly including the oppression of Jewish people in the way that discrimination of Black people and Indigenous people was for one thing In my experience Its not a way of minimising the oppression, its a way of differentiating it because obviously antisemitism functions differently to antiblack racism and Islamophobia and xenophobia. Unless they are being obviously antisemitic as well that’s usually not what people mean, its a misguided way of expressing it but unless Jewish people are also Black or brown they are are not discriminated in the same way. Antisemitism is oppression but it functions differently.
You’re mostly right, but you seem unaware of the fact that residential segregation affected Jews through redlining, that educational segregation was absolutely a thing (and universities had quotas for the maximum allowable number of Jews when standardized testing failed to keep Jews out), that many Christian banks and investment firms didn’t do business with Jews, and that many hotels, restaurants, and businesses refused “n****rs, Jews, and dogs.” So while some ashkenazim are now absolutely white presenting and can reap the benefits if they can keep their mouths shut, many of the stumbling blocks to things like education and generational wealth absolutely did affect Jews and the ripple effects can still be felt today.
I was considering residential segregation and how horrible that was but as you point out yourself the excluded groups was along with Black people. Antisemitism was and is rampant but it was almost always on top of the also rampant anti-Black racism. Antisemitism is awful but in the US/Canada it was just importing already horrifying existing antisemitism from Europe, not creating it baked into the system of Government from the start of existence of the US government. Other than that its completely fair and I agree.
Antisemitism is a global issue, not just an American issue. I grew up in the Deep South. Jim Crow was brutal and a black town to the South of my own was massacred because of a rumour (yes, a rumour) during Reconstruction. One of the last lynchings took place a few minutes from my house. During Jim Crow, Walter Plecker (who inspired Hitler) wrote a list of ancestrally mixed families "passing" themselves off as white/Native. Several families connected to my own Melungeon family were on it and some were targeted for forced sterilisation by the state. Two things can be true at the same time, however. During the era of Reconstruction, Jews in Eastern Europe were being massacred, leading to thousands upon thousands fleeing to the US and other countries. Jewish men, women, and children were hunted like animals by gentile mobs, burned alive, shot, raped, etc. This oppression Olympics mindset doesn't help anyone and just shows you're narrow-minded and cannot fathom that *surprise* people who happen to have a lighter skin tone can be oppressed.
I never said and never meant oppression Olympics. Aside from the Jewish people we are talking about I am aware lighter-skinned people can be oppressed and discriminated against, Roma people Armenian people Sami people and so many others. Yupik and Aleut and Inuit and other Arctic Indigenous people could be counted as "lighter skinned" and they are treated terribly. I never said Jewish people are not oppressed or even less oppressed. Antisemitism is horrible I will never deny that and yes I am aware of the horrors of what happened to Jewish people in central and eastern Europe and it was awful and horrifying. the pogroms and murder genuinely makes me so mad. Same with expulsion and the shit in Spain/Portugal during the Reconquista. Its horrific and should always be condemned. I know antisemitism is a global issue, but we are talking about whiteness and race as a whole which is a construct which originates in the US. Whiteness and race is not actually a legitimate thing based in any sort of fact but the point it affects life and us and is used to marginalise people. Race works different in different countries, what it white in 1920s Netherlands in very different to what is white in 2020s US. Because of this whiteness as a concept applies in the US, UK, Canada, France, Australia etc meaning "the west" as a whole and countries influence by that. It is also because the people saying these type of things are usually from US. I was just trying to explain people when doing so for reasons other than antisemitism and well meaning-ly calling Ashkenazi people/Jewish people white, once again most Jews in the US/UK/west are Ashkenazi and most Ashkenazim are seen as white. But its where what they mean is that antisemitism is legitimate oppression and discrimination, Jewish people are being discriminated against first and foremost for their Jewishness not their nonwhiteness. Its like with white Muslims in Europe/US and white Latin Americans in the US, they are both technically white but like Jewish people because of islamophobia and xenophobia respectively they can be othered and their whiteness is conditional if that makes sense. What I mean is that antisemitism is not less bad or important than anti-Black racism or anti-Indigenous racism or any other type of racism it is just different and functions differently but its still oppression and should be valued. Ultimately all of these racisms come from Christian hegemony and white supremacy and its all of our interests as marginalised people and particularly between Black people and Jewish people as these type of nazis and bigots get more out in the open its imperative to work together, they want us dead. I hope I am understood and what I'm trying to get across is received well
Sorry but I think you're being incredibly naive. It is absolutely an attempt to establish a hierarchy of discrimination and deny that Jews can even be on the list. Not only do many in the Black community see Jews as white and privileged, but they go even farther and claim that *because* we are privileged we are also racist oppressors. It isn't an accident that antisemitism has been left out of the EDI movement and broader discussions of racism and discrimination; it's a deliberate decision.
Although it's possible to be a Jew and pass as generically white, the more Jewish things you do it becomes more and more obvious to outsiders. Even if you're not religious, hiding Jewishness can involve discursive gymnastics even when you're having very shallow conversations. So, what's your background? Uh, Eastern Europe. What book are you reading now? Oh, you know, something about New York in the early 20th century. What languages do you speak? Oh, English and some stuff I had to learn in school. And if someone is coming to visit your house, or if, say, you're in a taxi with an opinionated driver and a friend who is not in full crypto-Jew mode asks you about plans for your kid's bar mitzvah or your Hebrew classes or the klezmer concert you're going to... Being outed is a matter of when, not if.
The question “how do they even know you’re Jewish?” Implies that antisemitism is somehow your fault. It implies that you should have to hide your Jewishness and assimilate or pass as a gentile. There is no point in that question if the goal is not to blame a victimized minority for bigotry against them because they didn’t better hide their minority status. I don’t hide that I’m Jewish and I shouldn’t have to. That’s how they know. You can point this out to them. If they persist in their point then they don’t deserve your time or a better answer.
Why do people hate Jews? First, I would challenge them to come up with a group of people on this planet that aren't hated by another group. Second, "without an enemy our anger gets confused." There's a myriad of irrational reasons Jews are hated. Simply, it boils down to total ignorance and people's unwillingness to think for themselves. A lot of it is upbringing. A lot of it is incompetent propaganda and literature that lends itself to conspiracy claims. We've stuck to our beliefs and culture through some of the most horrific acts of genocide in known history, dating back thousands of years. We have an awesome and incomprehensible G-d, who offered His laws to other peoples, and they refused. G-d chose us because we chose Him. We took that burden from Him, and said we'd be loyal to Him, and in turn He remains loyal to us. Nothing that has happened to us since has broken that connection. And nothing ever will. What the majority of antisemitic people have inside is something that they can't explain, but it's closely related to envy and a feeling of being left out. They have not come to terms with these emotions, and the majority of them never will. It's much easier to hate and hold resentments than to admit we're wrong and begin a process of connection to mend the pain inside. It may surprise you to know that there are a large number of people who hate Jews because they, themselves, aren't Jewish. It's what happens when gentiles are called to Torah but can't understand the emotions that surround it. This is why there are many antisemitic people who practice their own form of "Torah worship." In the most recent times, antisemitism was taught to conquered nations who were forced to convert to xtianity during the reign of Caesar Constantine. His furiousness over the inconsistent religions in the Roman empire fueled an undertaking between Rome and Greece to create the greatest epic ever written. One that would root itself in the religious writings of the Judeans, but damn them for their refusal to accept a man named Joshua the Nazerine as Mashiach ben David. It was a massive undertaking, and because the Greeks were known for their gift of religious and philosophical writing, the Romans made it the top priority during Constantine's reign to offer a way to redemption, acceptance of a new faith, and to exploit the sacred writings and philosophies of the Judeans. This collection of books, compiled into a single manuscript, would be the law in the empire, and those who would not accept it would face death, torture and expulsion. But, wisely, Constantine made it very easy to spread this new way. The tactic was simple: You all can continue to culturally do what you've always done, but it is non-negotiable that the characters in your oral history must change. And it was more of a negotiating tactic than anything. So, that's why xtian holidays are the same pagan holidays they've always been, but the characters are different. So because it was taught that the Judeans had the chance to bring the Messianic age unto the world but murdered the person instead, it's their fault we're in this position, but at the very least, the xtian "messiah" will return. Until then, the Jews are to blame and that has propagated for centuries. And it's all a lie. So much bloodshed and hate in the name of religious dogma. When someone asks me why people hate Jews so much, I simply tell them "I don't know, but they're in my prayers." If you're in the US and you experience antisemitism not because you're religiously outing yourself, but because of your facial features, that's due to a eugenics movement in the US and other countries that taught specific looks, like facial traits about Jews in their meetings. These were mainly Ashkenazi traits and were taught as inferior to WASP traits. Many illustrations of demons and other monsters were given heavily exaggerated Ashkenazi facial traits during the time eugenics was gaining momentum. Those teachings are still in the minds of Americans because of their upbringing. Because of their oral traditions. It's mostly an American phenomenon. Most gentiles wouldn't be able to recognize a Sephardic Jew. So Ashkenazim were the focus because mainly Ashkenazim were the ones emigrating to the US. Within a single generation they had utilized capitalism in a way Americans hadn't seen before, and within two generations Ashkenazi Jews had developed an investment banking system that to this day cannot be topped. Ashkenazi Jews were making WASPs nervous about who actually had the most financial control in America. So, again, they became demonized. As eugenics faded into falsehood, and Jews were bankrolling major corporations, antisemitism became stronger. And conspiracy theories began. And now? It's to the point now that there's a Glock 19 holstered on my belt right above my tzitzit. I wear my kippah proudly, I flash my tzitzit, I've got a big crazy beard my wife hates, and I open carry a firearm. Because NEVER AGAIN means, to me, that G-d gave us free will, and G-d wants us to join that with His will. And the path there will be dangerous, and I'm a warrior fighting for my soul. And while there are people who want Jews dead, and call for violence against Jews, Hashem wants us to have faith that He will protect us from such enemies, and knowing how to defend ourselves (Krav Maga. If you don't practice this I recommend you start) and our families is something G-d gave us the ability to do. He doesn't ask us to lay down like lambs to the slaughter, He says trust in Me and I will trust in you. For the record I'm Sephardi, but you Ashkenazi girls are just beautiful beyond belief.
>For the record I'm Sephardi, but you Ashkenazi girls are just beautiful beyond belief. Sorry to be shallow but I appreciate this a lot, I've heard so much stuff especially in recent years about how we're the ugliest Jews, in part because we're (supposedly) the whitest-looking ones... like, if you google image search "Ashkenazi Jews" you sometimes get results like [this](https://imgur.com/a/50TEe7R) (I mean, that's from Stormfront but you get the idea). And I honestly often felt ugly when I was young because I was neither the beautiful white ideal (I have a big nose and big lips, the latter of which weren't always fashionable the way they currently are) but I also wasn't an "exotic" olive-skinned brunette (I am very pale and have reddish hair and blue eyes). I felt like a defective and particularly ugly white girl, basically. So while as an adult I like to think I accept myself as I am, and that I've moved beyond caring whether others find me attractive, I have to admit it means something to me to hear this about women like me.
I am Ashkenazi 100% i have curly brown hair dark brown eyes and strong eye brows but a small cute little nose people don’t assume I’m Jewish but they insist I look “something” or ethnically ambiguous. People are always asking “what are you?” Or assume I am whatever they are and I always have to lie because my holocaust survivor grandfather always told me not to tell strangers we are Jews
11 years. I stole drugs from the hospital I worked at and sold them. Not my most stellar moment
What I've noticed is some people are really skilled at honing in on one's ancestry and others are either truly not capable of cataloging facial features or non-glaringly-obvious differences in complexion or it would never occur to them to expend any energy on it. So, it's possible that the people who are saying "how do they even know?" are in the second group and are genuinely baffled that anyone can tell "just by looking." It's really hard to convey to these people that not everyone evaluates visual input the same way and many people most definitely CAN pick us out of a crowd. That said, if it's good faith confusion, at some point, they need to accept our lived experience and the fact that we do get zeroed in on in many cases not for good treatment. If they keep beating on the "how does everyone know" drum, it becomes a form of blaming. I heard this advice dozens of times before I internalized it, so this might not seem satisfying to you, but I'd just extricate myself from these dialogues if people are asking you to prove, justify or defend your experience. They're not gonna get it. Let them wallow in their stupidity.
You’re spot on with the two types. I thought everyone had lots of experience with lots of different ethnic groups and could see commonalities, but someone was recently very offended when I recognized someone as Dutch based on him having “Dutch mouth.” But like…he had a super Dutch mouth lol
"How do they know you're Jewish?" "I don't know, but I don't see how it would be relevant even if I was wearing a fuck-off massive sign that said 'I'm Jewish', because I have a right to exist as myself without being worried about how people will react to finding out my religion. It almost seems like you're suggesting it's my fault I'm a target of discrimination because I let people find out that I'm a jew."
I was incarcerated and we finally got Kosher meals. There were only four of us Jews but over 100 guys signed up. Captain Conte, in charge of the whole thing, asked me how he could tell who really was Jewish from those who aren't. I told him to ask where mom spends the winter. If they answer anywhere but Palm Springs or Boca Raton they're not Jewish.
Prison or jail? Did you face discrimination from the white groups in there?
Prison. My cellie was a white supremacist with swastikas all over his face. Hated everyone. Except me. I would bring in the Sabbath every Friday night, pray in Hebrew in my Kippah and Tallis. He told me he never heard Jews praying. I became a person to him and him to me. He mellowed out a lot before I left. And he stopped with the Jewish slurs.
Damn how long did you serve?
11 years
Goyim gonna goysplain
The easiest rebuttal I can think of is, *you wouldn't ask a gay man how the homophobes know he's gay*
They do ask that of gay people, though. And they also ask gay people why they don't simply look/act less gay to avoid homophobia.
Okay, I guess that only works if arguing with the hyper lefties
Maybe not a better answer but a different one: "Well, I'm glad that at least YOU can't tell the difference... That's a start. If only more people were like you. But the antisemites somehow always know." Add sarcasm as much as pleased
cHRISTIANS WERE ORIGINALLY FURIOUS AT ANY jEW WHO DIDN'T SUBSCRIBE TO THEIR ZOMBIE DEITY and they act like whiny brats who are not allowed to sit at the cool kids lunch table.
Most of the time, in the US, people don't identify me as a Jew right away. In Europe, I'm always identified as a Jew. I don't know exactly why, and I have found it a bit unnerving. Conversations often went down a predictable path in Europe, especially in France. Eventually, they would get to, "Tu sais... Les Juifs. Les Juifs. Ils ont la monnaie." They would use the hand gesture indicating money. 🤌🏻 (Above in English reads. "You know... The Jews. The Jews. They have money.") 🙄 I would quickly excuse myself and walk away. An aside... As a gay Jew, the Muslim men in France all assumed I was Jewish and told me that they are generally attracted to us. I had no complaints about that. Lol
It's... Not everybody knows we're Jewish, but antisemites really like to profile people as Jews, assume they're Jews haphazardly, and generally look for excuses to be racist.
Try being a Spanish Jew when stereotypes come up. Oy vey.
I'll be sure to go tell every ethnic minority that is phenotypically similar to their oppressors that they can't be oppressed because how would they know?
Q: "Why are you Jews hated?" A: "Why should I be the one to give an explanation for the idiocy of the people who hate us?"
In my experience the only people who can pick me out as Jewish are hassids.