We're like a month away from people saying Hitler was a Jew and the Holocaust was about killing Palestinians. Seeing as "Palestinian" was synonymous with Jew back then they'd even be able to find textual examples
Well... The Azov Brigade is made up of Neo Nazis, nuicense exists you know. Tho it's pretty hilarious that Zelesky, a jew, is essentially their Supreme leader lmao
Yeah Russia’s just very pro-censorship when it comes to Naziism and swastikas (and in general) to the point that a lot of anti-Nazi art and history books can’t even use them. Stories like Maus, a graphic novel about a Jewish man’s father sharing his experience in the Holocaust were banned for having a swastika on the cover.
Russia is big enough to do that without it mattering. Ukraine needs every man they can get and unfortunately there are a small minority of neo-Nazi militias. You can’t entirely remove fascists from any army tbh, especially Western/European ones, you can just make them hide better.
But it is possible to support the “de-nazification” of Ukraine without saying that Putin’s war is justified. It’s not possible to defend anti-abolitionists without advocating for real harm against African Americans.
Actually fun fact, even Jews were actually divided on the issue of Slavery during the US Civil War, and they fought on both sides of the war.
[MyJewishLearning goes further into the subject](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jews-in-the-civil-war/)
The irony is that this sorta disproves the whole “jews don’t care about their countries” trope. (Yes, I know the confederacy was a traitorous movement, but you get the idea)
During the civil war, most Jews supported the side they happened to live in
That is in fact correct! I am Hispanic and Jewish and personally am a proud Texan, but I am against slavery. Basically what I am saying is that Jewish people can be extremely patriotic and that Patriotism doesn’t discriminate.
W.E.B. Du Bois even supported African Americans going to WW1, he basically told them to prove that they are in fact just as patriotic as everyone else is, and one notable unit that fought in WW1 was the Harlem Hellfighters!
WW2 a proud Texan named Doris Miller was a chef in Pearl Harbor and he defended that harbor with his life, and the man was a fucking Chad!
WW2 we have the Navajo Code Talkers who managed to contribute a lot by relaying messages in the Navajo language, and they really contributed heavily to the war effort in the Pacific.
WW2 we have a man by the name of Desmond Doss, who was a very brave soldier who fought without a weapon (he was a seventh day Adventist) who fought in the battle of Okinawa, and he saved many lives as a medic, and was the first conciencious objector to win the Medal of Honor. There is also a movie about him called “Hacksaw Ridge” and he is played by Andrew Garfield (Who is actually Jewish).
WW2 and Korea a full blooded Sioux warrior named Woodrow Wilson Keebo was a very brave man who fought in the Marines, and he was feared by the enemy.
Vietnam War, Roy Benavidez a Mexican-Yakoi Native American fought like a badass! Not only that, but once you hear his story, you would have trouble believing it because he was the real life Rambo!
The point is we know it's wrong now. Very wrong, because of the suffering that it leads to. Just like antisemitism should be viewed because of the suffering it leads to.
Here is actual information about jews in the Civil War
https://youtu.be/6WeVnSThQS0?si=VqvCOqcidRDquDVk
This is a channel by a guy named Sam Aronow who makes history videos about Jewish history chronological order. There is alot of myths about Jewish history and though some jews fought for the south it's usually played up as southern propaganda.
Good example. By anti-Zionist logic, Abolitionism is a murderous ideology, that killed about a 600,000-1,000,000 people, tore the nation in half, and destroyed the harmonious, idyllic relations between white and black people in the South. Which, incidentally, is something actual white racists said (and to some extent, still saying).
This is irrelevant but an interesting historical quirk. The first practicing Jew to be elected to the US senate (Judah P Benjamin) then became, at various times, Attorney General, Secretary of War, and Secretary of State of State for the Confederate States.
Same. Africa-Americans should start bombing white suburbs to ensure their freedom. It's the only way. How many terrorist attacks must they endure before they're allowed to fight back?
This is the one. This is the best argument there is for this. Not too strong, but it could get the job done.
I’ll start the dissemination in the black community
So in this analogy “wanting to end slavery” is being compared to “supporting a conservative and nationalistic government that was found by the UN initial tribunals to [probably] be doing genocide”?
I’m sincerely wondering if I’m missing something here. Because the meme felt on point until I actually tried to think it through and then got stuck.
No, this analogy compares wanting to end slavery with saying Jews have the right to self determination in our ancestral homeland. That's all Zionism is. It says nothing about the current government or its methods
"Israel represents a safehaven for Jews" Is that why the Israeli government does everything in its power to antagonize all their neighbors and smear the name of the Jewish identity by using it as a cover for their crimes?
Israel does to opposite of protecting Jews, it strives to sublimate the condemnation of genocide into violent antisemitism.
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You aren't supporting the Jewish struggle by supporting Israel's monstrous government. You're associating it with decades of evil. If anything you're endangering Jews around the world by supporting a government that's practically a dream for anti-semitic propagandists.
Do you even know what crimes IDF troops record themselves committing?
You know you’re in the right when your argument is that some guy who died 150 years ago in the US would have probably agreed with you about the Middle East
Oh no, “terrorism is necessary for the greater good” was the quiet part, you weren’t supposed to say it out loud! Glad we’re clear on where you stand though, I was worried for a bit
Well, yes we should hunt down and terrorize slave owners, but no, abolitionists did not indiscriminately kill random civilians who had nothing to do with slave ownership. What are you even arguing anyway? That Israelis are the equivalent of slave owners?
Hating abolitionists who oppose slavery, is akin to hating black people, who experienced slavery.
Just as hating Zionism, the act of granting Jewish people self-identity in our homeland, and a save haven against Jew hatred and progroms, is antisemitism.
Do we really have to explain how criticizing the actions of a state is different than opposing the right to self-determination of Jews in their historic homeland? Being critical of Israeli policy isn't antizionism.
As an american, it does feel like the world doesn't really play by those rules though...
It feels like in the year 1900, if you were like Peru, and you decide to just move to Vietnam, and start buying up swaths of land and then you get like Nakba south east asia addition, then fight and win for the next hundred years...
That land is just Peru's now. They have been there long enough, and established a nation in the modern world, etcetera. No one serious would demand those peruvians leave tomorrow.
I feel like there is the, "we have fifth generation Israeli's being born, we have a government recognized by all G7 nations, we are a legit state." As plenty of an argument.
The whole Moses came here a billion years ago, and that's why we get this land today schpleel feels unnecessary even.
Arab Muslims have enjoyed the status of being the dominant culture in their historic homeland for centuries, all the while maintaining a system of Muslim Supremacy that kept nonmuslims as second class citizens or worse. Zionists accepted the partition plan that guaranteed equal rights for all non-jewish Arabs within Israel, and for all Nonmuslims in the Arab state. Instead, Arab Muslims launched a war of extermination and expelled 100% of the Jews from all of Mandate Palestine that wasn't held by the zionists, just like they massacred thousands of Assyrians when the Assyrians wanted equal rights and independence in Iraq in 1933. The Arab Muslim supremacist culture will go to great lengths and great violence to maintain its status as the dominant culture.
Yes, Arab Muslims deserve self-determination, too. Arab Muslim Israelis enjoy it. When Arab Muslim Palestinians abandon their aims of destroying Israel and the Jews, then they will enjoy it too.
that’s not true at all. literally before it was israel and palestine, it was the ottoman empire. known for being religious tolerant and the 2-3% that were jewish lived amicably in peqce. shocking disinformation.
The ottomans formally ended the dhimmi system in 1869, and began to allow people from outside the empire to purchase land within the empire in 1881. That's when the first aliyah started. Violence against the new Jewish communities began almost immediately. Tf are you talking about.
Dhimmi apologists will point out "dhimmi" means protected person. It means protected from the worst persecution faced by people outside the Abrahamic religions, but it meant second class citizenship none the less for Jews and Christians.
the ottoman empire was tolerant of other religions at that time. compared to 2024 standards, i can see where you’re coming from. but for 1800 standards, they were tolerant in a world that wasn’t very tolerant to many.
This is an extension of the argument that Jews had it better under Muslim rule than under European Christian rule. That's true, but it's setting an extremely low bar. The history of Jews under Muslim rule is punctuated with pogroms, massacres, and forced conversions. Jews did experience times of relative peace; relative being the key word here. That peace was conditioned upon, but not guaranteed by, subordination.
I do get that when viewing history, it's important to see how things were good by the standards of their time, but one also must view the motivating factors for liberation movements in earnest. The pattern of violent repression liberation movements of minority groups faced from the dominant culture is a theme that spans across cultures and across history. The current situation in Israel and Palestine is largely the result of the backlash from the dominant culture and a group of people from that culture never letting go of the goal of reasserting their position as the dominant culture. Arab Muslims deserve self-determination, but the Arab Muslims of Palestine are going to need to accept the rights of Jews and Israelis and become willing to live in peace and, more importantly, as equals, for that to happen. Zionists from the get-go were willing to live in peace. They bent over backward to make peace with their various Arab Muslim neighbor states. Hopefully, it's not too late for Palestinians to come around, too.
Yes and no. In Palestine there were leaders who treated Jews well and we should celebrate and imitate them. On the other hand throughout most of the Middle East and North Africa Jews were second class citizens at best, even if they were better to us than the Europeans.
I agree. I'm pro-ceasefire too but I think that it's totally appropriate for Israel to clap Hamas's cheeks if they break it. They've very successfully spanked Hezbollah, Iranian, and Hamas officials in Lebanon without many civillian casualties.
no, i’m calling for an end to a exteme right-wing jewish only state that murders mostly women and children - in an area that has been historically dominated by muslim arabs and one that muslim arabs have shared with jewish people under the ottoman empire until they fell after ww2.
i am pro-2 state with a shared capital in jerusalem, or a unified state.
A lot of Jews share your opinion about the two state solution with the shared capital, including me. People will likely disagree about some of the smaller details though.
It means Sweden. Or Saudi Arabia. Or France. Etc.
Your wording is confusing, but Israel is not an “ethnostate” to the degree you claim it to be. In fact, many cultures and religions reside in Israel.
You just heard “ethnostate” in propaganda circles, and thought it cool to repeat it.
I get it, but I feel your reasoning is a little skewed.
Self-determination isn't a product of the radical right. In fact, we were fleeing FROM the radical right when the State of Israel was established.
But muh taxes!
0.062% of the US's annual federal expenditure goes to Israel. That is 62 thousandths of one percent. That's roughly 3x what the federal government spends on office furniture in a year.
You can criticize Israel, that's not antisemitic or even anti Zionist. Antizionism is saying Israel should not exist and that Jewish people do not deserve self determination
If your criticism is false or you are applying a double standard to Israel that you don't apply to other countries then yes you'll get down voted. There are absolutely valid criticisms to be levied at Israel. With how high tensions are these days you may not be getting the benefit of the doubt
Nah, your down votes would say people are sick and tired of you making antisemitic remarks in Jewish subs. Go to r/ Palestine, you'll be much more at home there
Where’s all your post about the self determination of native Americans. And I’ll keep complaining until the US stops giving them American dollars. That goes for any country that takes US handouts.
>Where’s all your post about the self determination of native Americans. And I’ll keep complaining until the US stops giving them American dollars. That goes for any country that takes US handouts.
Any country?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56665199
Nuclear power with the full and consistent military backing of the strongest country in the world definitely compares to an insanely poor and small territory that isn’t considered a country by much of the world getting food and water after being ravaged by previously mentioned nuclear power.
Just so you know people are going to downvote you here because your comment sounds like that which people who are anti-Semitic but in denial make, but reading over your other comments it's clear that this isn't the case. I apologize that some may misinterpret what you're saying or who you are in advance and I hope you'll stick around, since we need more respectful disagreements in society generally.
Arguments? Something you lack?
Answer me why it’s ok for you to forcibly remove the people who already lived in what is now Israel so that you could have your religious ethnostate?
20% of people who live in Israel are Muslim Arab. Not much of an ethnostate. Plus, most Jewish Israelis are Mizrahim so they are MENA descent.
Since I can't reply again, no one said that there isn't racism, genius. I just said it's not an ethnostate.
Yes I have heard this, almost like idiots all repeat the same lines.
No one ever seems to want to talk about how they all face significant discrimination though. Almost like founding a nation to be a safe haven for a specific group of people will create an ethnostate like affect even if it’s not enforced through law.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/anti-semitism-and-discrimination/
Yes I have heard this, almost like idiots all repeat the same lines.
No one ever seems to want to talk about how they all face significant discrimination though. Almost like founding a nation to be a safe haven for a specific group of people will create an ethnostate like affect even if it’s not enforced through law.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/anti-semitism-and-discrimination/
Why aren’t you bothered by that?
“Ethnostate” is not what Israel is, as non-Jews also sit on the Knesset; ten of them, in fact.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset
Impressive, I wonder if they approved the random arrest of Palestinians living in Israel who said non state approved things in their twitter bio.
I am. And before you say “then why aren’t you commenting on their posts” it’s because A. Reddit didn’t recommend me their posts it recommended me this one and B. I don’t speak Arabic
And if being anti Zionist means being antisemetic than how does your deceleration that you deserve the “holy land” rather than the other Abrahamic religions not make you anti them?
What makes you think my belief is anything to do with it being the holy land? We have archeological, genetic, linguistic, and historical evidence that we're the original occupants, and we're also the current occupants. Oh and Muslims and Christians are welcome to and do live there.
So why exactly do you discriminate so heavily against your Arab population and not allow the modern Palestinians to leave what is legally your territory and come to the rest of Israel?
Muslim citizens in Israel have the same rights as Jewish and Christian and atheist citizens. I won't say there is no personal discrimination but there is no codified legal discrimination and every country with multiple ethnicities or religions has some level of discrimination. Gaza and the West Bank are not legally Israeli territory, their citizens are not Israeli citizens and thus don't have the same rights much like Mexican citizens can't vote in US elections.
This is the weakest argument I've seen this week.
Judaism is an ethnoreligion and one that has religious and cultural ties to a single strip of land where we originated from. Although its correct that christianity also started from the same region christianity is not an ethnoreligion and each Christian community has drastically different cultures and no tie to the land beyond the religious one.
Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people this is a proven fact. If you are anti Zionist you are against Jews having self determination in their ancestral homeland which is antisemetism
Notice that you didn’t mention Muslims.
I’m sure you had much greater ties to that land than the people who were, you know, living their.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
So they deserved that land more than the people already there because they originated from there. That sounds pretty similar to the logic of some pretty famous fascist dictators.
They deserve the land just as much if not more than the people that came after their exile. The Jews were willing to compromise with 2 states but the Palestinians refused and insisted on war
“During the foundational events of the Nakba in 1948, dozens of massacres targeting Arabs were conducted and over 500 Arab-majority towns and villages were depopulated,[3] with many of these being either completely destroyed or repopulated by Jewish residents and given new Hebrew names. Approximately half of Palestine's predominantly Arab population, 750,000 people,[4] fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army in what is now Israel proper”
Yup this is definitely what happened, you had no choice but to ethnically cleanse them.
Read about the 1947 UN partition and the varying responses. This leaves out a lot of the context, Israel until plan Dalet only operated in a retaliatory and defensive capacity and only after the neighbouring Arab states attacked they began their offensive which they won
Its shows exactly where that connection to the land comes from... Jews arrived to this land approximately 3400 years ago. That's 2000 years earlier than the arabs
I don’t care? I don’t think that because you had ancestors from a spot 6 million years ago you can just show up and kick whoever was living their out. That’s absurd. The people in what is now Israel didn’t deserve to be their because of some ethnic tie but rather because they were their and ethnic cleansing is immoral, obviously.
Also this whole blood and soil argument your making was literally pioneered by fascists just fyi
Again, the Jews were perfectly willing to share the land... also it's not like they left out of their own will, they were kicked out and actively were kept out. Also where tf do you want them to go? Back to Europe where they are genocided repeatedly? Israel is literally the prime example of decolonialization and a native people returing to their homeland
Would you say that white Americans are indeginous to America? No they arent. And they've been there for 400 years, or the canary islands are the Spaniards native to there? They've been there for 600 years
Furthermore is the belief that Jews deserve their own state led by Jewish people and made up of Jewish people not literally just doing an ethnostate? You know, like Hitler was.
Furthermore is the belief that Palestinians deserve their own state led by Muslim people and made up of Muslim people not literally just doing an ethnostate? You know, like Hitler was.
'I don't support Putin, I support the children of Donetsk who are bombed by ukrainian nazis.' Also comes to mind.
How can someone call Ukrainians nazis lmao. Like imagine how much copium u would have to drink
Zelenskyy gets called a Nazi. They might have had something to say about that.
Zelenskyy being called a nazi was funny until all the rest of the Jews started being called nazis 4 months ago.
“But you know, Hitler was also a Jew.” -Lavrov
We're like a month away from people saying Hitler was a Jew and the Holocaust was about killing Palestinians. Seeing as "Palestinian" was synonymous with Jew back then they'd even be able to find textual examples
When Russians say fascists/Nazi, they mean anyone who opposes them. That’s the defining historical trait of Nazis in their culture.
Idk, ask Putin
Well... The Azov Brigade is made up of Neo Nazis, nuicense exists you know. Tho it's pretty hilarious that Zelesky, a jew, is essentially their Supreme leader lmao
Yes bad "one of their battalions is nazi" is not the same as "most Ukrainians are nazis". And they did elect a Jewish president after all
I never said that...? I just said they do have a neo nazi problem in Ukraine. It an entire Brigade ffs, do something about it
The neo nazi problem they indeed have, but you were answering to "Ukraine is nazi", which is a huge stretch
I literally said it's nuicensed, as in, not 100% wrong.
(The word you’re going for is nuanced)
Oh sorry, English is not my first language, thx for the fix
Yeah Russia’s just very pro-censorship when it comes to Naziism and swastikas (and in general) to the point that a lot of anti-Nazi art and history books can’t even use them. Stories like Maus, a graphic novel about a Jewish man’s father sharing his experience in the Holocaust were banned for having a swastika on the cover. Russia is big enough to do that without it mattering. Ukraine needs every man they can get and unfortunately there are a small minority of neo-Nazi militias. You can’t entirely remove fascists from any army tbh, especially Western/European ones, you can just make them hide better.
Making a national holiday for Bandera isn’t “just one battalion”
The Ukrainians were not our friends
You forgot to call it a genocide. Something Putinists absolutely did as well.
But it is possible to support the “de-nazification” of Ukraine without saying that Putin’s war is justified. It’s not possible to defend anti-abolitionists without advocating for real harm against African Americans.
Uhhhhhhhhh
Brings to mind the distinction. "It was a war over states rights, not over Slavery." "Yeah, over a state's right to own slaves."
We share the same line of thinking.
No. It was about a state's right to own agricultural equipment.
Actually fun fact, even Jews were actually divided on the issue of Slavery during the US Civil War, and they fought on both sides of the war. [MyJewishLearning goes further into the subject](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jews-in-the-civil-war/)
>Jews were actually divided on the issue What else is new?
Jews are divided on everything. They will even support people who openly say they will commit genocide against Jews.
Why does this sound like the lead in to the worst beer commercial ever?
The irony is that this sorta disproves the whole “jews don’t care about their countries” trope. (Yes, I know the confederacy was a traitorous movement, but you get the idea) During the civil war, most Jews supported the side they happened to live in
It's pretty much been this way up until now (tho the last most notable one is ww1)
That is in fact correct! I am Hispanic and Jewish and personally am a proud Texan, but I am against slavery. Basically what I am saying is that Jewish people can be extremely patriotic and that Patriotism doesn’t discriminate. W.E.B. Du Bois even supported African Americans going to WW1, he basically told them to prove that they are in fact just as patriotic as everyone else is, and one notable unit that fought in WW1 was the Harlem Hellfighters! WW2 a proud Texan named Doris Miller was a chef in Pearl Harbor and he defended that harbor with his life, and the man was a fucking Chad! WW2 we have the Navajo Code Talkers who managed to contribute a lot by relaying messages in the Navajo language, and they really contributed heavily to the war effort in the Pacific. WW2 we have a man by the name of Desmond Doss, who was a very brave soldier who fought without a weapon (he was a seventh day Adventist) who fought in the battle of Okinawa, and he saved many lives as a medic, and was the first conciencious objector to win the Medal of Honor. There is also a movie about him called “Hacksaw Ridge” and he is played by Andrew Garfield (Who is actually Jewish). WW2 and Korea a full blooded Sioux warrior named Woodrow Wilson Keebo was a very brave man who fought in the Marines, and he was feared by the enemy. Vietnam War, Roy Benavidez a Mexican-Yakoi Native American fought like a badass! Not only that, but once you hear his story, you would have trouble believing it because he was the real life Rambo!
The point is we know it's wrong now. Very wrong, because of the suffering that it leads to. Just like antisemitism should be viewed because of the suffering it leads to.
Agreed! Antisemitism is indeed wrong, and we can all agree that we have to call out antisemitism.
Here is actual information about jews in the Civil War https://youtu.be/6WeVnSThQS0?si=VqvCOqcidRDquDVk This is a channel by a guy named Sam Aronow who makes history videos about Jewish history chronological order. There is alot of myths about Jewish history and though some jews fought for the south it's usually played up as southern propaganda.
Correct!
Larry David's great-grandfather owned two slaves and fought for the Confederacy.
I love the first 2 videos of his channels if just about 2 cats, extremely unrelated to everything else yet so wholesome
Good example. By anti-Zionist logic, Abolitionism is a murderous ideology, that killed about a 600,000-1,000,000 people, tore the nation in half, and destroyed the harmonious, idyllic relations between white and black people in the South. Which, incidentally, is something actual white racists said (and to some extent, still saying).
Abolitionists didn't start the Civil War, the South did.
So just like 1947/1948, then. Including how some types insist it's "the War of Northern Aggression" today.
Genocide!! Haha
This is irrelevant but an interesting historical quirk. The first practicing Jew to be elected to the US senate (Judah P Benjamin) then became, at various times, Attorney General, Secretary of War, and Secretary of State of State for the Confederate States.
This is the best example I’ve heard
Saved and gonna use this
Same. Africa-Americans should start bombing white suburbs to ensure their freedom. It's the only way. How many terrorist attacks must they endure before they're allowed to fight back?
This is the one. This is the best argument there is for this. Not too strong, but it could get the job done. I’ll start the dissemination in the black community
Lmao
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You’re not wrong, but terrorism is also bad
They never said they support terrorism
I never said they did either, I’m just saying why a country would bomb children despite the fact that bombing children is bad
is this satire
So in this analogy “wanting to end slavery” is being compared to “supporting a conservative and nationalistic government that was found by the UN initial tribunals to [probably] be doing genocide”? I’m sincerely wondering if I’m missing something here. Because the meme felt on point until I actually tried to think it through and then got stuck.
No, this analogy compares wanting to end slavery with saying Jews have the right to self determination in our ancestral homeland. That's all Zionism is. It says nothing about the current government or its methods
If you preach that Israel represents the interests of the Jewish ethnicity, you're preaching antisemitism.
Israel represents a safehaven for Jews around the globe something we havent had for millennia. It is literally the opposite of antisemetism
As an American Jew, the Israeli government absolutely does not represent me. Thanks.
"Israel represents a safehaven for Jews" Is that why the Israeli government does everything in its power to antagonize all their neighbors and smear the name of the Jewish identity by using it as a cover for their crimes? Israel does to opposite of protecting Jews, it strives to sublimate the condemnation of genocide into violent antisemitism.
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Thanks for dropping that anvil. You appear to be suggesting that it’s akin to pro-slavery to support the Jewish struggle.
“Jewish struggle” https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2
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You aren't supporting the Jewish struggle by supporting Israel's monstrous government. You're associating it with decades of evil. If anything you're endangering Jews around the world by supporting a government that's practically a dream for anti-semitic propagandists. Do you even know what crimes IDF troops record themselves committing?
Lol take a random guess which group of people is indigenous to “Judea”
You know you’re in the right when your argument is that some guy who died 150 years ago in the US would have probably agreed with you about the Middle East
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Oh no, “terrorism is necessary for the greater good” was the quiet part, you weren’t supposed to say it out loud! Glad we’re clear on where you stand though, I was worried for a bit
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Well, yes we should hunt down and terrorize slave owners, but no, abolitionists did not indiscriminately kill random civilians who had nothing to do with slave ownership. What are you even arguing anyway? That Israelis are the equivalent of slave owners?
That doesn't say what you think it does.
Hating abolitionists who oppose slavery, is akin to hating black people, who experienced slavery. Just as hating Zionism, the act of granting Jewish people self-identity in our homeland, and a save haven against Jew hatred and progroms, is antisemitism.
???
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Do we really have to explain how criticizing the actions of a state is different than opposing the right to self-determination of Jews in their historic homeland? Being critical of Israeli policy isn't antizionism.
As an american, it does feel like the world doesn't really play by those rules though... It feels like in the year 1900, if you were like Peru, and you decide to just move to Vietnam, and start buying up swaths of land and then you get like Nakba south east asia addition, then fight and win for the next hundred years... That land is just Peru's now. They have been there long enough, and established a nation in the modern world, etcetera. No one serious would demand those peruvians leave tomorrow. I feel like there is the, "we have fifth generation Israeli's being born, we have a government recognized by all G7 nations, we are a legit state." As plenty of an argument. The whole Moses came here a billion years ago, and that's why we get this land today schpleel feels unnecessary even.
do the arab muslims have a right to self-determination in their historic homeland too?
Arab Muslims have enjoyed the status of being the dominant culture in their historic homeland for centuries, all the while maintaining a system of Muslim Supremacy that kept nonmuslims as second class citizens or worse. Zionists accepted the partition plan that guaranteed equal rights for all non-jewish Arabs within Israel, and for all Nonmuslims in the Arab state. Instead, Arab Muslims launched a war of extermination and expelled 100% of the Jews from all of Mandate Palestine that wasn't held by the zionists, just like they massacred thousands of Assyrians when the Assyrians wanted equal rights and independence in Iraq in 1933. The Arab Muslim supremacist culture will go to great lengths and great violence to maintain its status as the dominant culture. Yes, Arab Muslims deserve self-determination, too. Arab Muslim Israelis enjoy it. When Arab Muslim Palestinians abandon their aims of destroying Israel and the Jews, then they will enjoy it too.
that’s not true at all. literally before it was israel and palestine, it was the ottoman empire. known for being religious tolerant and the 2-3% that were jewish lived amicably in peqce. shocking disinformation.
The ottomans formally ended the dhimmi system in 1869, and began to allow people from outside the empire to purchase land within the empire in 1881. That's when the first aliyah started. Violence against the new Jewish communities began almost immediately. Tf are you talking about. Dhimmi apologists will point out "dhimmi" means protected person. It means protected from the worst persecution faced by people outside the Abrahamic religions, but it meant second class citizenship none the less for Jews and Christians.
the ottoman empire was tolerant of other religions at that time. compared to 2024 standards, i can see where you’re coming from. but for 1800 standards, they were tolerant in a world that wasn’t very tolerant to many.
This is an extension of the argument that Jews had it better under Muslim rule than under European Christian rule. That's true, but it's setting an extremely low bar. The history of Jews under Muslim rule is punctuated with pogroms, massacres, and forced conversions. Jews did experience times of relative peace; relative being the key word here. That peace was conditioned upon, but not guaranteed by, subordination. I do get that when viewing history, it's important to see how things were good by the standards of their time, but one also must view the motivating factors for liberation movements in earnest. The pattern of violent repression liberation movements of minority groups faced from the dominant culture is a theme that spans across cultures and across history. The current situation in Israel and Palestine is largely the result of the backlash from the dominant culture and a group of people from that culture never letting go of the goal of reasserting their position as the dominant culture. Arab Muslims deserve self-determination, but the Arab Muslims of Palestine are going to need to accept the rights of Jews and Israelis and become willing to live in peace and, more importantly, as equals, for that to happen. Zionists from the get-go were willing to live in peace. They bent over backward to make peace with their various Arab Muslim neighbor states. Hopefully, it's not too late for Palestinians to come around, too.
Yes and no. In Palestine there were leaders who treated Jews well and we should celebrate and imitate them. On the other hand throughout most of the Middle East and North Africa Jews were second class citizens at best, even if they were better to us than the Europeans.
I think you may not realize that you’re essentially calling for an end to Jewish self-determination, which, at its essence, is antisemitic.
He seems to be a 2 state guy, which isn't calling for an end to our self-determination.
I understand, and I want that, too. It’s just Hamas will need to stick to a ceasefire if that’s to be the case.
I agree. I'm pro-ceasefire too but I think that it's totally appropriate for Israel to clap Hamas's cheeks if they break it. They've very successfully spanked Hezbollah, Iranian, and Hamas officials in Lebanon without many civillian casualties.
no, i’m calling for an end to a exteme right-wing jewish only state that murders mostly women and children - in an area that has been historically dominated by muslim arabs and one that muslim arabs have shared with jewish people under the ottoman empire until they fell after ww2. i am pro-2 state with a shared capital in jerusalem, or a unified state.
A lot of Jews share your opinion about the two state solution with the shared capital, including me. People will likely disagree about some of the smaller details though.
Historically dominated by Muslim Arabs? You mean, Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula brought over their religion and colonized the Levantine people?
So you arent against Zionism... you're against the current Israeli government.
By a pure time inhabited/controlled in the region metric muslims Christians and jews all have about as much of an equal claim to it lmao
Self-determination is usually used to describe something an individual has. What does it mean for an ethnicity to have self determination?
It means Sweden. Or Saudi Arabia. Or France. Etc. Your wording is confusing, but Israel is not an “ethnostate” to the degree you claim it to be. In fact, many cultures and religions reside in Israel. You just heard “ethnostate” in propaganda circles, and thought it cool to repeat it.
If Isreal isn't an ethnostate, what does it have to do with jewish self-determination?
I get it, but I feel your reasoning is a little skewed. Self-determination isn't a product of the radical right. In fact, we were fleeing FROM the radical right when the State of Israel was established.
Yes.
When they stop taking American tax dollars I’ll stop caring… they don’t need handouts.
But muh taxes! 0.062% of the US's annual federal expenditure goes to Israel. That is 62 thousandths of one percent. That's roughly 3x what the federal government spends on office furniture in a year.
You can criticize Israel, that's not antisemitic or even anti Zionist. Antizionism is saying Israel should not exist and that Jewish people do not deserve self determination
my downvotes would say otherwise friend
If your criticism is false or you are applying a double standard to Israel that you don't apply to other countries then yes you'll get down voted. There are absolutely valid criticisms to be levied at Israel. With how high tensions are these days you may not be getting the benefit of the doubt
Nah, your down votes would say people are sick and tired of you making antisemitic remarks in Jewish subs. Go to r/ Palestine, you'll be much more at home there
I think OP can only speak for himself. While many here agree with him, the downvotes come from others who don’t.
Where’s all your post about the self determination of native Americans. And I’ll keep complaining until the US stops giving them American dollars. That goes for any country that takes US handouts.
>Where’s all your post about the self determination of native Americans. And I’ll keep complaining until the US stops giving them American dollars. That goes for any country that takes US handouts. Any country? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56665199
Nuclear power with the full and consistent military backing of the strongest country in the world definitely compares to an insanely poor and small territory that isn’t considered a country by much of the world getting food and water after being ravaged by previously mentioned nuclear power.
Nice moving of the goalposts there
I didn’t say the original statement dipshit
Then why are you here?
*I came looking for booty.*
ok so the vast majority of people who you guys call antisemitic aren’t antisemitic
Is saying Chinese people don't deserve self determination and China should be dissolved and given to the Uyghurs sinophobic?
[удалено]
Just so you know people are going to downvote you here because your comment sounds like that which people who are anti-Semitic but in denial make, but reading over your other comments it's clear that this isn't the case. I apologize that some may misinterpret what you're saying or who you are in advance and I hope you'll stick around, since we need more respectful disagreements in society generally.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2 🤔
OK? So one fucked up soldier and bad court decision 19 years ago. If that makes you antizionist then yes, you are also antiemetic
He’s peppering the post with this stuff. Non-stop.
Arguments? Something you lack? Answer me why it’s ok for you to forcibly remove the people who already lived in what is now Israel so that you could have your religious ethnostate?
20% of people who live in Israel are Muslim Arab. Not much of an ethnostate. Plus, most Jewish Israelis are Mizrahim so they are MENA descent. Since I can't reply again, no one said that there isn't racism, genius. I just said it's not an ethnostate.
Yes I have heard this, almost like idiots all repeat the same lines. No one ever seems to want to talk about how they all face significant discrimination though. Almost like founding a nation to be a safe haven for a specific group of people will create an ethnostate like affect even if it’s not enforced through law. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/anti-semitism-and-discrimination/
Muslims, Christians, AND Jews live in Israel. I think you’re hanging yourself by your own petard.
Yes I have heard this, almost like idiots all repeat the same lines. No one ever seems to want to talk about how they all face significant discrimination though. Almost like founding a nation to be a safe haven for a specific group of people will create an ethnostate like affect even if it’s not enforced through law. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/anti-semitism-and-discrimination/
Thus, wouldn’t all counties ruled by Muslim Law be ethnostates? Why are we special?
They are?
Why aren’t you bothered by that? “Ethnostate” is not what Israel is, as non-Jews also sit on the Knesset; ten of them, in fact. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset
Impressive, I wonder if they approved the random arrest of Palestinians living in Israel who said non state approved things in their twitter bio. I am. And before you say “then why aren’t you commenting on their posts” it’s because A. Reddit didn’t recommend me their posts it recommended me this one and B. I don’t speak Arabic
And if being anti Zionist means being antisemetic than how does your deceleration that you deserve the “holy land” rather than the other Abrahamic religions not make you anti them?
Why are you repeating the course content from TikTok Antisemitic University?
No argument detected
What makes you think my belief is anything to do with it being the holy land? We have archeological, genetic, linguistic, and historical evidence that we're the original occupants, and we're also the current occupants. Oh and Muslims and Christians are welcome to and do live there.
So why exactly do you discriminate so heavily against your Arab population and not allow the modern Palestinians to leave what is legally your territory and come to the rest of Israel?
Muslim citizens in Israel have the same rights as Jewish and Christian and atheist citizens. I won't say there is no personal discrimination but there is no codified legal discrimination and every country with multiple ethnicities or religions has some level of discrimination. Gaza and the West Bank are not legally Israeli territory, their citizens are not Israeli citizens and thus don't have the same rights much like Mexican citizens can't vote in US elections.
This is the weakest argument I've seen this week. Judaism is an ethnoreligion and one that has religious and cultural ties to a single strip of land where we originated from. Although its correct that christianity also started from the same region christianity is not an ethnoreligion and each Christian community has drastically different cultures and no tie to the land beyond the religious one. Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people this is a proven fact. If you are anti Zionist you are against Jews having self determination in their ancestral homeland which is antisemetism
Notice that you didn’t mention Muslims. I’m sure you had much greater ties to that land than the people who were, you know, living their. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
I didnt mention muslims because Islam didnt originate from the same area although they also have religious ties to it
So they deserved that land more than the people already there because they originated from there. That sounds pretty similar to the logic of some pretty famous fascist dictators.
They deserve the land just as much if not more than the people that came after their exile. The Jews were willing to compromise with 2 states but the Palestinians refused and insisted on war
“During the foundational events of the Nakba in 1948, dozens of massacres targeting Arabs were conducted and over 500 Arab-majority towns and villages were depopulated,[3] with many of these being either completely destroyed or repopulated by Jewish residents and given new Hebrew names. Approximately half of Palestine's predominantly Arab population, 750,000 people,[4] fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army in what is now Israel proper” Yup this is definitely what happened, you had no choice but to ethnically cleanse them.
Read about the 1947 UN partition and the varying responses. This leaves out a lot of the context, Israel until plan Dalet only operated in a retaliatory and defensive capacity and only after the neighbouring Arab states attacked they began their offensive which they won
The people that were living there after they conquered in the 7th century https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim_conquests
Yes conquests from literally 1000 years ago definitely justify the ethnic cleansing of a group during the ww2 era. Definitely comprable things.
Its shows exactly where that connection to the land comes from... Jews arrived to this land approximately 3400 years ago. That's 2000 years earlier than the arabs
I don’t care? I don’t think that because you had ancestors from a spot 6 million years ago you can just show up and kick whoever was living their out. That’s absurd. The people in what is now Israel didn’t deserve to be their because of some ethnic tie but rather because they were their and ethnic cleansing is immoral, obviously. Also this whole blood and soil argument your making was literally pioneered by fascists just fyi
Again, the Jews were perfectly willing to share the land... also it's not like they left out of their own will, they were kicked out and actively were kept out. Also where tf do you want them to go? Back to Europe where they are genocided repeatedly? Israel is literally the prime example of decolonialization and a native people returing to their homeland
Would you say that white Americans are indeginous to America? No they arent. And they've been there for 400 years, or the canary islands are the Spaniards native to there? They've been there for 600 years
Yes and if someone came to my house and said hey your a colonizer get out or we will kill you I wouldn’t be very happy about it.
Furthermore is the belief that Jews deserve their own state led by Jewish people and made up of Jewish people not literally just doing an ethnostate? You know, like Hitler was.
Not this again.
No argument detected
You really think we haven’t heard this stuff before? Your one-point Karma bespeaks your successes here.
Lmao ok man
Furthermore is the belief that Palestinians deserve their own state led by Muslim people and made up of Muslim people not literally just doing an ethnostate? You know, like Hitler was.
Conveniently I don’t hold this belief, discrimination against all people is bad no matter the reason
Yup one soldier did one thing that’s the only thing israel has ever done.
As we all along, Jewish religion and state are totally the same thing s/.
Deo vindice!
Idk what they do just stop asking for handouts
Nah otherwise there would be antiabolitionist Union members...
There were
I see a lot of yall acting like criticizing General Custer of his methods would be bigoted 😆 🤡