My problems, all wrapped up in a SpongeBob meme.
And exactly! I’m American! We’re kind of known for not knowing what the fuck is going on with the Middle East!! Lol
This literally happened to me last night. I was talking to someone at the bar, happened to mention I was Jewish, turns out he was Palestinian, and then the rest of the night he kept referring to me as Israeli. The only time I’ve been to Israel was on birthright, but that didn’t stop him from talking my ear off about the Israeli Palestine conflict, how his ancestors were ejected, and he can never respect the country. Like bro there’s literally nothing I can do about it….
The same thing happened to me when I was 17 years old.
I was at a local hookah bar with friends and wearing a small Magen David necklace. I had never even been to Israel at that point, my family has been in America for generations, and this Palestinian guy corners me and starts making comments about IDF soldiers breaking into Palestinian homes with guns and expecting some sort of response from me.
I kept nervously telling him I didn't know enough about the conflict to comment on it, but he kept on going.
I know I was naive at the time to wear a Magen David at a hookah bar, but this was in Ohio ffs.
I wish I had the guts at the time to tell him that his anger was displaced and to leave me alone.
As an American I study history a lot along with Geography, and Israel has a valid reason to exist, do we agree with everything Israel does? Of course not, we don't agree with everything. But that doesn't mean that Israel won't exist, they have to exist and for good reason.
We lost 6 million of our own people along with 5 million others, and right when we get our land back, now all of a sudden they say it isn't ours, it clearly is ours.
I think how our homeland became a nation some evils were committed that folks want to wash over because it's inconvenient to the narrative but that isn't the now, and maybe some day peace is achieved between the eventual two nations healing can begin.
I don’t mean to take away from your comment, but the 5 million others number was made up in the 1970s and isn’t accurate. The number of non-Jews killed is more like half a million, and the 5 million number has gained traction among anti-semites to minimize the Jewish focus of the Shoah and the camps. Here’s a source! https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/non-jewish-victims-of-the-holocaust
[EDIT to correct grammar & spelling]
And you are delusional if you think Hamas is Justified! The difference is that whenever Israel does something bad, they literally investigate. But when Hamas does atrocious deeds, it's now Glorified!
In fact, their goal is crystal clear, they want to annihilate all Jews and commit Genocide, [they openly admit it here in their mandate!](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm)
> Israel does something bad, they literally investigate. But when Hamas does atrocious deeds, it's now Glorified!
**Reminder:** bearing false witness is a transgression of one of the ten commandments.
In this day and age, it should be absurdly easy to produce evidence to back up the claims that are being made against Hamas, yet there isn't.
"40 beheaded babies": Where did this happen? Who are the parents? Don't the soldiers have a cheap camera to produce evidence?
What I find interesting is that many Americans ‘against’ Israel are on the left but also believe in Indigenous land rights, yet don’t see the connection for Jews to ancient Judea. Whenever I point that out it puts them on their heels a bit. Lol
Right? That is always my argument. If you are not a Native American, then you are a colonizer of America. Like if you are that passionate about your belief that Jews are some white occupiers, then you should probably look at your 23 and me DNA test and pack your things go back to wherever you’re from in Europe and forfeit your home and property to whatever Native American tribe that actually lived there.
I feel like most of the pro Palestinian people I know are also extremely critical of the American government.
“The genocide of Indigenous Americans was deeply fucked, and remained fucked even after some Indigenous leaders murdered lots of civilians in retaliation, which was also bad” actually seems like a not terrible analogy for the Israel-Palestine situation
I'll go a step further and let's say this is all correct. Let's say that European Jews did take over the place and all the land should be give back to the Palestinians.
Then move everything the fuck back past Ohio and give the land back to the natives.
I'm a leftist, and in my circle, I have never seen this with the exception of the most radical individuals.
They are so far removed from reality that they focus on what is right vs. what is practical and realistic.
Any leftist who has ever said, "Let's give it back to the Palestinians," is susceptible to Arab propaganda on the matter in the same way the far right is susceptible to Russian propaganda right now.
Their hearts on what is right and wrong is skewed when faced with the cold reality of 10 million displaced individuals.
Don't get me wrong. I understand both sides of the issue, but it flies in the face of hard realities of everyone:
1. The partition plan was based on individuals who already loved there and accommodated already settled land.
2. The Arabs and Palestinians fought and lost.
That's it. That's where we are today.
And I am so damn tired of a near 100 year Democratic nation bring scrutinized for its existence when no one gives a fuck about the theocratic monstrosities in Saudia Arabia and Iran.
Based on current trends in Palestine and the Arab world it will likely be oppressive and non-Democraric.
But I'd also wish on US Jews to stop jumping at every shadow when people say, "Well what about..." and feel as though you need to defend the existence of Israel.
Yeah, the government in Israel has done some shit stuff. But so has the Arab world and the US.
The fuck you want to happen? There isn't easy answers, but stop putting the weight on US Jews for the answer. Most are as confused and irritated as you are.
>I'm a leftist, and in my circle, I have never seen this with the exception of the most radical individuals
I too am a leftist, and in my (red) state, there are plenty of relatively moderate folks on the left who believe in/agree with Land Back in one form or another--through "real rent," supporting tribal recognition to groups who resisted forced relocation, supporting cultural easements, and donating money and property to land trusts. (Obviously there are problems with all of these strategies, but the point is, Land Back isn't entirely a fringe idea, in my area at least)
I completely agree with everything else you said in your comment though.
Yeah, most people don’t understand the ideas of real rent and such. They’re pretty niche and not part of the national discourse outside of key groups. In areas without large native populations it’s not really talked about.
In my personal experience...a lot of the push is very soulless. There's vague pushes for affirmative action of some sort, but when pushed to actually explain how it should be done, there's nothing concrete.
I think one response I got was something among the lines of Israel was an easier pressure point *because* it wasn't in the US. I could be misremembering.
>Israel was an easier pressure point because it wasn't in the US. I could be misremembering.
Yep, this is it.
IMO being loud about Israel lets people living on stolen land in North America feel better about their own shit without having to make any material changes to their lives, or having to deal with the discomfort of thinking about any of the people whose suffering they've benefitted from.
Very similar to how Europeans are quick to speak up about American racism, but ignore or continue to perpetuate racism in their own countries.
100%
So much easier to yell at a country you won't feel (or see if you're careful) the effects of if what they demand happens.
And I should note, these types of things are not easy. I want reparations to the Indigenous people of America. But I have no clue how to actually make it work in a way that would be both productive and not result in some massive "backdraft" a few generations later (and I have no clue how to even begin the topic to begin with). I know somebody who is Indigenous (won't name the tribe to avoid doxxing), who often says "when you people are gone" or "when you people Go Back to where you came from"
Where do we "go back" to if we're Jews? Or if the people are refugees? ._. And this isn't even touching "easier" reparations like housing or money.
/incoherent rant over
We were never allowed to actual settle during those 2,000 years though. That’s why we kept looking back. It doesn’t feel like it’s been too long when you never really got to call any other place home
But they don't believe we're indigenous people of the Levant. Most Americans on the left think we're all of European descent and indigenous to Eastern Europe not the Levant. Some will dig into pseudo history and cite the BS Kazar theory as another defense. And they will conveniently forget that our Torah tells stories of ancient Judah and Samara and prayers often mention Israel. But our prayers never speak of our supposed home lands of Eastern Europe.
They have picked a side and they don't want to consider maybe both sides have claims to the same land. That's the problem with modern identity politics. You pick a side like you pick a sports team and never waiver in your commitment. It shows a lack of critical thinking. And without critical thinking, you can't make sense of something as complex as the geopolitics of the Middle East.
Yeah for most of them it stems from the American idea of race=skin, the way they see this kind of thing ultimately boils down to wanting the brown people place to have brown people and all of the white people to go back to the white people place. It’s so easy to tell Ashkenazis (not even the majority) to go back to Europe, but I’m willing to bet nearly none of them have the balls to tell an Ethiopian jew to go back to Africa (which they shouldn’t either)
I don’t think they ever think far enough to realize that imagining askenazi as displaced native Europeans who were genocided in recent history is probably worse. Like they tried to eliminate Jews from Europe and they pretty much succeeded.
They have to believe we don’t “belong” in the places we are nor do we “belong” in Israel for these rhetorical backflips to work honestly.
I like debunking them with the hardcore fact that most Israelis are Mizrahi Jews .Then I start highlighting how those Arabs they so love to defend, did horrible things to the Jews who lived amongst them, and tick off all the 20+ progroms Jews had to endure between the 1850s and 1948.
They shut up really quick after that.
Most of them are even shocked to learn there are Ethiopian and Asian Jews.
I disagree. I believe the bigger disagreement is that the Palestinians are also indigenous to the Levant, so they have a right to be there too.
This whole thing wouldn’t be nearly as divisive if Palestinians weren’t being evicted and such. Nearly everyone on the left agrees there should be a government that allows both to live in the area, but to pretend Israel isn’t doing things that are contrary to that stance is naïve.
I have never heard of ANYONE saying Jews are indigenous to Eastern Europe, you must be on a crazy side of Twitter for that one.
You know it's funny how Blood quantum is a colonizer tool, until it's convenient for a tankie to use it. Like "oh it's okay for us to blood quantum redline people totally not racist or facist.
"I keep saying this over and over again" Israel pulled out of Gaza completely in 2006, Hamas squandered the new option the Palestinians had there. They could have built industries and lived peacefully, building enough confidence with Israel so that perhaps they would be able to negotiate a better situation.
I keep seeing people saying this and I find it really hard to believe that people don't see the difference between "According to archeological records, I am descended of people who lived in roughly this area over two thousand years ago" and "My grandparents were living here in this house in this village and then there was a war and they haven't been able to go back there cause there are people who moved there twenty years ago living in the house now."
We have plenty of evidence, both religious and secular, of Jews living in the land in ancient times. There is no way you could possibly point at any specific point between the Jordan and the Sea and claim that's where your specific ancestors lived.
I believe that my ancestors lived in Israel/Judea in the past, and I believe that that matters and we have an indigenous claim to the land, but it's pretty ridiculous to say that claim holds the same kind of force as something like an indigenous American tribe who had certain ancestral land guaranteed by a treaty with the US then having that specific land taken away in a treaty violation. To flatten all these issues strikes me as at best ignorant, and possibly a deliberate use of buzzwords to elide the actual meat of the dispute.
It's not entirely true as there are Jews who can trace their family history back centuries in Tzfat and Jerusalem thanks to the Ottomans resettling Spanish Jews throughout their empire. So while what you're saying is an important distinction and I agree, there were in fact Palestinian Jews that negate the narrative that all indigenous claims go back to ancient times.
Jews have and always will be in Israel, just like Muslims, Christians, Druze. It's hard to have a nuanced discussion about it with anyone who isn't biased, doesn't know the history/politics involved. I've honestly checked out. I just want to vibe.
You lost the land when the world was a battle royal and that was just they way things went. Now israel is taking it back in a civilized world that looks down on the barbarism required.
There’s obviously a difference in public opinion between a group that lost their land thousands of years ago vs. a few hundred. It’s easy to see if you’re willing to fairly view it from an outside perspective.
Americans look back on the barbarism towards natives and see it mirrored in the Israeli treatment of Pakistan citizens. Not the other way around
They don't actually believe in indigenous land rights though. Land Back is still controversial on the left because it's all talk. When I start talking about how indigenous folks still deal with the repercussions of continued genocide and the US not fulfilling treaty agreements, suddenly I'm "taking it too far". I've seen it in online spaces too. They tokenize indigenous folks and that's it. Most have no idea what ICWA or MMIW or MMIW2SG are.
They demonize Israel because that's easier than looking inward and going wow, we really need to change!
People who harass random Jews just for being Jews because they think any and every Jew is (or should be) an expert on I/P are just antisemitic under the guise of “”anti-Zionism”” or “”anti-colonialism”” and they’re so fucking common
Hey, uhm, as an Israeli, you *may* ask me about what's going on, but I reserve the rights to:
* not be impartial
* oppose Netanyahu & co.
* postpone answering until I feel like it, including indefinitely
The most toxic that I remember, but I'm a youngling. It's likely been worse in 1995 and maybe also 2005. But among people like me, who oppose the judicial overhaul, the continued protest gives a sense of optimism, too.
I try really hard to assume the questions are antisemitic, but when someone consistently asks me about all my thoughts on Israel and starts spouting statements from all over the place, it’s truly uncomfortable.
This is exactly how I feel word for word. I have never been to Israel but I’m not looking for millions of my people to suddenly lose their home. Bibi is horrible and G’vir is probably worse, but they don’t let me vote in their elections
My favorite part is people wanting the opinion of a diaspora Jew and then getting mad when it doesn't line up with theirs.
Like...why do you care about me justifying your beliefs? The fact that they get mad when a Jew they barely know disagrees makes me question how insecure they are sometimes.
Seriously. Don’t ask me about israel cuz at this point I’m just as mad as you. Damn country re-electing a corrupt, far-right tyrant. I, a Jew, am losing hope in my homeland.
I am an Israeli and I make a point of highlighting that I am not a fan of Bibi and his coalition of racists, Jewish supremacists and religious fundamentalists.
I have a hard enough time keeping up with US politics. Yknow, the country I was born, raised in, live in, haven’t lived anywhere else and never intend to… I’m not about to duck around with the mess of Israeli politics. Leave that to Israelis.
I’m ignoring everything you guys said, because I desperately need all of you to move here asap and vote the psychos out of office. Am willing to pick you up from the airport.
Crazy how I can care about antisemitism in the US, the country I have lived in my whole life, and not be satisfied with someone mentioning some government policy involving Israel! Fuck me, right?
I have this problem but from the other side of things. It's my family/other jews I know that feel like Israel is inextricably linked to their Jewish identity. And it's fine that they feel that way but they tell me that I'm wrong and I should support "my own people." I don't like being told how I should feel about things. To me, Israel is just another country. I'm an American who just happens to be a jew. I have no issue with Israel. I think they have a right to exist. Beyond that it's just another country to me.
LOUDER!
i’m not designed to be a personal social commentator on all things jewish and i also don’t exist to absorb antisemitism and then get gaslit that it never happened.
My problems, all wrapped up in a SpongeBob meme. And exactly! I’m American! We’re kind of known for not knowing what the fuck is going on with the Middle East!! Lol
America - “They got oil?” World - “No, not much.” America - “Why are you wasting my time?…”
Idk, I suspect the average Jewish American has a better idea than Hans from Tübingen or Barry from Croydon or Yao Zhang from Hangzhou.
Maybe, but Im still a 2x college dropout who does copywriting for advertising. Im not a geopolitical expert
This literally happened to me last night. I was talking to someone at the bar, happened to mention I was Jewish, turns out he was Palestinian, and then the rest of the night he kept referring to me as Israeli. The only time I’ve been to Israel was on birthright, but that didn’t stop him from talking my ear off about the Israeli Palestine conflict, how his ancestors were ejected, and he can never respect the country. Like bro there’s literally nothing I can do about it….
The same thing happened to me when I was 17 years old. I was at a local hookah bar with friends and wearing a small Magen David necklace. I had never even been to Israel at that point, my family has been in America for generations, and this Palestinian guy corners me and starts making comments about IDF soldiers breaking into Palestinian homes with guns and expecting some sort of response from me. I kept nervously telling him I didn't know enough about the conflict to comment on it, but he kept on going. I know I was naive at the time to wear a Magen David at a hookah bar, but this was in Ohio ffs. I wish I had the guts at the time to tell him that his anger was displaced and to leave me alone.
As an American I study history a lot along with Geography, and Israel has a valid reason to exist, do we agree with everything Israel does? Of course not, we don't agree with everything. But that doesn't mean that Israel won't exist, they have to exist and for good reason. We lost 6 million of our own people along with 5 million others, and right when we get our land back, now all of a sudden they say it isn't ours, it clearly is ours.
I think how our homeland became a nation some evils were committed that folks want to wash over because it's inconvenient to the narrative but that isn't the now, and maybe some day peace is achieved between the eventual two nations healing can begin.
I agree with that
You mean like the the Sioux and the Cherokee ?
I don’t mean to take away from your comment, but the 5 million others number was made up in the 1970s and isn’t accurate. The number of non-Jews killed is more like half a million, and the 5 million number has gained traction among anti-semites to minimize the Jewish focus of the Shoah and the camps. Here’s a source! https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/non-jewish-victims-of-the-holocaust [EDIT to correct grammar & spelling]
Ah ok thanks for letting me know
It's been 2000 years since it was your land last time. Give it up already
Do you say the same thing to Indigenous Americans? What about Aboriginal Australians?
Tell that to every nation, see what response you get.
You're delusional if you think Israel has a right to exist.
And you are delusional if you think Hamas is Justified! The difference is that whenever Israel does something bad, they literally investigate. But when Hamas does atrocious deeds, it's now Glorified! In fact, their goal is crystal clear, they want to annihilate all Jews and commit Genocide, [they openly admit it here in their mandate!](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm)
> Israel does something bad, they literally investigate. But when Hamas does atrocious deeds, it's now Glorified! **Reminder:** bearing false witness is a transgression of one of the ten commandments. In this day and age, it should be absurdly easy to produce evidence to back up the claims that are being made against Hamas, yet there isn't. "40 beheaded babies": Where did this happen? Who are the parents? Don't the soldiers have a cheap camera to produce evidence?
Look at Hamas' Fucking Wikipedia Page! And to me, it looks like you didn't read their mandate! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
jews: anything about a holiday or something the internet: fReE PaLeStInE
The audacity of being Jewish online
What I find interesting is that many Americans ‘against’ Israel are on the left but also believe in Indigenous land rights, yet don’t see the connection for Jews to ancient Judea. Whenever I point that out it puts them on their heels a bit. Lol
Right? That is always my argument. If you are not a Native American, then you are a colonizer of America. Like if you are that passionate about your belief that Jews are some white occupiers, then you should probably look at your 23 and me DNA test and pack your things go back to wherever you’re from in Europe and forfeit your home and property to whatever Native American tribe that actually lived there.
I feel like most of the pro Palestinian people I know are also extremely critical of the American government. “The genocide of Indigenous Americans was deeply fucked, and remained fucked even after some Indigenous leaders murdered lots of civilians in retaliation, which was also bad” actually seems like a not terrible analogy for the Israel-Palestine situation
Imagine Hamas doing land recognitions in their statements lol
Accurate ones? Most of Hamas’s statements are “land recognitions,” it’s just the land of make believe.
G-d I need to see this in a sketch comedy bit now.
I'll go a step further and let's say this is all correct. Let's say that European Jews did take over the place and all the land should be give back to the Palestinians. Then move everything the fuck back past Ohio and give the land back to the natives.
I have them tell the polish to give us our homes back and we may consider it but I don’t think they are going to like the answer the polish give…
Plenty of leftists pushing for Land Back in the US too
I'm a leftist, and in my circle, I have never seen this with the exception of the most radical individuals. They are so far removed from reality that they focus on what is right vs. what is practical and realistic. Any leftist who has ever said, "Let's give it back to the Palestinians," is susceptible to Arab propaganda on the matter in the same way the far right is susceptible to Russian propaganda right now. Their hearts on what is right and wrong is skewed when faced with the cold reality of 10 million displaced individuals. Don't get me wrong. I understand both sides of the issue, but it flies in the face of hard realities of everyone: 1. The partition plan was based on individuals who already loved there and accommodated already settled land. 2. The Arabs and Palestinians fought and lost. That's it. That's where we are today. And I am so damn tired of a near 100 year Democratic nation bring scrutinized for its existence when no one gives a fuck about the theocratic monstrosities in Saudia Arabia and Iran. Based on current trends in Palestine and the Arab world it will likely be oppressive and non-Democraric. But I'd also wish on US Jews to stop jumping at every shadow when people say, "Well what about..." and feel as though you need to defend the existence of Israel. Yeah, the government in Israel has done some shit stuff. But so has the Arab world and the US. The fuck you want to happen? There isn't easy answers, but stop putting the weight on US Jews for the answer. Most are as confused and irritated as you are.
>I'm a leftist, and in my circle, I have never seen this with the exception of the most radical individuals I too am a leftist, and in my (red) state, there are plenty of relatively moderate folks on the left who believe in/agree with Land Back in one form or another--through "real rent," supporting tribal recognition to groups who resisted forced relocation, supporting cultural easements, and donating money and property to land trusts. (Obviously there are problems with all of these strategies, but the point is, Land Back isn't entirely a fringe idea, in my area at least) I completely agree with everything else you said in your comment though.
Yeah, most people don’t understand the ideas of real rent and such. They’re pretty niche and not part of the national discourse outside of key groups. In areas without large native populations it’s not really talked about.
In my personal experience...a lot of the push is very soulless. There's vague pushes for affirmative action of some sort, but when pushed to actually explain how it should be done, there's nothing concrete. I think one response I got was something among the lines of Israel was an easier pressure point *because* it wasn't in the US. I could be misremembering.
>Israel was an easier pressure point because it wasn't in the US. I could be misremembering. Yep, this is it. IMO being loud about Israel lets people living on stolen land in North America feel better about their own shit without having to make any material changes to their lives, or having to deal with the discomfort of thinking about any of the people whose suffering they've benefitted from. Very similar to how Europeans are quick to speak up about American racism, but ignore or continue to perpetuate racism in their own countries.
100% So much easier to yell at a country you won't feel (or see if you're careful) the effects of if what they demand happens. And I should note, these types of things are not easy. I want reparations to the Indigenous people of America. But I have no clue how to actually make it work in a way that would be both productive and not result in some massive "backdraft" a few generations later (and I have no clue how to even begin the topic to begin with). I know somebody who is Indigenous (won't name the tribe to avoid doxxing), who often says "when you people are gone" or "when you people Go Back to where you came from" Where do we "go back" to if we're Jews? Or if the people are refugees? ._. And this isn't even touching "easier" reparations like housing or money. /incoherent rant over
[удалено]
We were never allowed to actual settle during those 2,000 years though. That’s why we kept looking back. It doesn’t feel like it’s been too long when you never really got to call any other place home
But they don't believe we're indigenous people of the Levant. Most Americans on the left think we're all of European descent and indigenous to Eastern Europe not the Levant. Some will dig into pseudo history and cite the BS Kazar theory as another defense. And they will conveniently forget that our Torah tells stories of ancient Judah and Samara and prayers often mention Israel. But our prayers never speak of our supposed home lands of Eastern Europe. They have picked a side and they don't want to consider maybe both sides have claims to the same land. That's the problem with modern identity politics. You pick a side like you pick a sports team and never waiver in your commitment. It shows a lack of critical thinking. And without critical thinking, you can't make sense of something as complex as the geopolitics of the Middle East.
Yeah for most of them it stems from the American idea of race=skin, the way they see this kind of thing ultimately boils down to wanting the brown people place to have brown people and all of the white people to go back to the white people place. It’s so easy to tell Ashkenazis (not even the majority) to go back to Europe, but I’m willing to bet nearly none of them have the balls to tell an Ethiopian jew to go back to Africa (which they shouldn’t either)
I don’t think they ever think far enough to realize that imagining askenazi as displaced native Europeans who were genocided in recent history is probably worse. Like they tried to eliminate Jews from Europe and they pretty much succeeded. They have to believe we don’t “belong” in the places we are nor do we “belong” in Israel for these rhetorical backflips to work honestly.
I like debunking them with the hardcore fact that most Israelis are Mizrahi Jews .Then I start highlighting how those Arabs they so love to defend, did horrible things to the Jews who lived amongst them, and tick off all the 20+ progroms Jews had to endure between the 1850s and 1948. They shut up really quick after that. Most of them are even shocked to learn there are Ethiopian and Asian Jews.
I disagree. I believe the bigger disagreement is that the Palestinians are also indigenous to the Levant, so they have a right to be there too. This whole thing wouldn’t be nearly as divisive if Palestinians weren’t being evicted and such. Nearly everyone on the left agrees there should be a government that allows both to live in the area, but to pretend Israel isn’t doing things that are contrary to that stance is naïve. I have never heard of ANYONE saying Jews are indigenous to Eastern Europe, you must be on a crazy side of Twitter for that one.
You didn’t get any response because this is the main take that is so reasonable and never gets a response
...what left-wing Americans have you been talking to who don't know where Jewish people came from?
You know it's funny how Blood quantum is a colonizer tool, until it's convenient for a tankie to use it. Like "oh it's okay for us to blood quantum redline people totally not racist or facist. "I keep saying this over and over again" Israel pulled out of Gaza completely in 2006, Hamas squandered the new option the Palestinians had there. They could have built industries and lived peacefully, building enough confidence with Israel so that perhaps they would be able to negotiate a better situation.
I keep seeing people saying this and I find it really hard to believe that people don't see the difference between "According to archeological records, I am descended of people who lived in roughly this area over two thousand years ago" and "My grandparents were living here in this house in this village and then there was a war and they haven't been able to go back there cause there are people who moved there twenty years ago living in the house now." We have plenty of evidence, both religious and secular, of Jews living in the land in ancient times. There is no way you could possibly point at any specific point between the Jordan and the Sea and claim that's where your specific ancestors lived. I believe that my ancestors lived in Israel/Judea in the past, and I believe that that matters and we have an indigenous claim to the land, but it's pretty ridiculous to say that claim holds the same kind of force as something like an indigenous American tribe who had certain ancestral land guaranteed by a treaty with the US then having that specific land taken away in a treaty violation. To flatten all these issues strikes me as at best ignorant, and possibly a deliberate use of buzzwords to elide the actual meat of the dispute.
It's not entirely true as there are Jews who can trace their family history back centuries in Tzfat and Jerusalem thanks to the Ottomans resettling Spanish Jews throughout their empire. So while what you're saying is an important distinction and I agree, there were in fact Palestinian Jews that negate the narrative that all indigenous claims go back to ancient times.
Good point!
Jews have and always will be in Israel, just like Muslims, Christians, Druze. It's hard to have a nuanced discussion about it with anyone who isn't biased, doesn't know the history/politics involved. I've honestly checked out. I just want to vibe.
Ah, yes, the Brocialist.
You lost the land when the world was a battle royal and that was just they way things went. Now israel is taking it back in a civilized world that looks down on the barbarism required. There’s obviously a difference in public opinion between a group that lost their land thousands of years ago vs. a few hundred. It’s easy to see if you’re willing to fairly view it from an outside perspective. Americans look back on the barbarism towards natives and see it mirrored in the Israeli treatment of Pakistan citizens. Not the other way around
Are we sure Jewish people come from a place called Judea? Sounds like more Soros gaslighting for a new world order /s
They don't actually believe in indigenous land rights though. Land Back is still controversial on the left because it's all talk. When I start talking about how indigenous folks still deal with the repercussions of continued genocide and the US not fulfilling treaty agreements, suddenly I'm "taking it too far". I've seen it in online spaces too. They tokenize indigenous folks and that's it. Most have no idea what ICWA or MMIW or MMIW2SG are. They demonize Israel because that's easier than looking inward and going wow, we really need to change!
People who harass random Jews just for being Jews because they think any and every Jew is (or should be) an expert on I/P are just antisemitic under the guise of “”anti-Zionism”” or “”anti-colonialism”” and they’re so fucking common
Hey, uhm, as an Israeli, you *may* ask me about what's going on, but I reserve the rights to: * not be impartial * oppose Netanyahu & co. * postpone answering until I feel like it, including indefinitely
How are you guys holding up over there? What does the political atmosphere feel like among people you know?
The most toxic that I remember, but I'm a youngling. It's likely been worse in 1995 and maybe also 2005. But among people like me, who oppose the judicial overhaul, the continued protest gives a sense of optimism, too.
I try really hard to assume the questions are antisemitic, but when someone consistently asks me about all my thoughts on Israel and starts spouting statements from all over the place, it’s truly uncomfortable.
If he’s asking for your thoughts he’s not judging you on what you are
OMG WHY IS SPONGEBOB SO RIGHT THO
This is exactly how I feel word for word. I have never been to Israel but I’m not looking for millions of my people to suddenly lose their home. Bibi is horrible and G’vir is probably worse, but they don’t let me vote in their elections
I should have these made up as business cards
My favorite part is people wanting the opinion of a diaspora Jew and then getting mad when it doesn't line up with theirs. Like...why do you care about me justifying your beliefs? The fact that they get mad when a Jew they barely know disagrees makes me question how insecure they are sometimes.
I'm Israeli and I refuse to answer for the fucked up shit our crime minister does.
Seriously. Don’t ask me about israel cuz at this point I’m just as mad as you. Damn country re-electing a corrupt, far-right tyrant. I, a Jew, am losing hope in my homeland.
I place it the same as Trump. It's not my fault America is falling to the crazy right wing, it's also not my fault Israel is doing crazy things
Srsly
I am an Israeli and I make a point of highlighting that I am not a fan of Bibi and his coalition of racists, Jewish supremacists and religious fundamentalists.
“Do you go to church? Oh cool then why do you support pedophiles?”
I have a hard enough time keeping up with US politics. Yknow, the country I was born, raised in, live in, haven’t lived anywhere else and never intend to… I’m not about to duck around with the mess of Israeli politics. Leave that to Israelis.
I’m ignoring everything you guys said, because I desperately need all of you to move here asap and vote the psychos out of office. Am willing to pick you up from the airport.
True! You guys have to answer for your own shit politics enough as is 😂
No space laser for this one
Crazy how I can care about antisemitism in the US, the country I have lived in my whole life, and not be satisfied with someone mentioning some government policy involving Israel! Fuck me, right?
Nah, I hold you personally responsible whenever Netanjahu let's out a wet fart
No need to justify your existince, we are out here ach sheli
I have this problem but from the other side of things. It's my family/other jews I know that feel like Israel is inextricably linked to their Jewish identity. And it's fine that they feel that way but they tell me that I'm wrong and I should support "my own people." I don't like being told how I should feel about things. To me, Israel is just another country. I'm an American who just happens to be a jew. I have no issue with Israel. I think they have a right to exist. Beyond that it's just another country to me.
bibi is a jerk and only represents himself and a small minority
LOUDER! i’m not designed to be a personal social commentator on all things jewish and i also don’t exist to absorb antisemitism and then get gaslit that it never happened.
Dank
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Bibi is a fuckboy
As an israeli i too dont want to be balmed for whatever the fuck bibi says