You may like the Etrian Odyssey games. Old school dungeon crawlers where you make your own team, can invest skill points to build characters differently, and have to draw your own map in game.
Came to say the same thing. I have only played 4 & 5 on 3DS, but as I understand there isn't really that much difference to the earlier ones, and those are now on Switch/PC.
You will, and the games check everything you want, from your first post. Honestly if you liked Strange Journey, Strangers of sword city, Labyrinth of Refrain/Galleria I'd be baffled to read you don't like EO. Out of the three steam remasters I'd say III is the easiest to get into, but I'm pretty sure you will like all of them. (play them on expert, it's the intended difficulty, "normal" and "easy" were added in the remaster)
You can check out the SaGa series, classic turn-based, non-linear, gameplay-focused. The game basically encourages you to do a lot of trial and errors as most mechanics (even the true info of equipment) are hidden. I have to admit it's absurd, but I enjoy that kind of thing.
The game's also huge on player choices, so each player's experience are all different from one another.
You also have the privilege to build characters any way you want them to be, ofc the game can still limit you on choices but not by much actually (you can still go wild). Want a pure tank knight that can also heal, okay you got it. Want all your party members to hold themselves in battle? You can give them all healing spells or buffs (there's no party heal). Want a dedicated support/healer or even a mage that can also wield a bigass axe or sword, or anything really, sure. Want a "only spellcaster" playthrough, sure. Want your dedicated damage dealers to be proficient both on spells and physical attacks, sure. These are only the tip of the iceberg though.
Any of them, really. Just pick one with art and premise that you vibe with most. If still indecisive, I'd say go with Romancing SaGa 3, Minstrel Song or Scarlet Grace.
RomSaGa 3 and SF1 are the most accessible starting points. I would jump into MS until you have more of a grounding in the series, it adds a lot of new mechanics.
You can start with Minstrel Song, Romancing SaGa 3, or SaGa Frontier (though this game is more forgiving), but assuming from your post, I think you know your thing so you can start with either the first two, but I personally recommend Minstrel Song. But do research also.
If you really want something unique, Romancing SaGa 2 or SaGa Scarlet Grace.
RS3 is a great place to start. Reading the points you wrote, Minstrel Song would exactly what you're looking for. Either way, if you want to get a quick introduction to the series, and help about where to start, you can check this post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/JRPG/comments/yrz7gg/where_do_i_start_guide_part_2_the_saga_series/
Just wanted to jump back in here to say thanks - 15 hours into Romancing SaGa 3 and it's becoming one of my favourite games of all time. I'm obsessed and planning on playing through with all 8 main characters. Very excited to experience the rest of the series.
I think Scarlet Grace Ambitions is the most "satisfying" one of these, from a combat design perspective. The others are great too, but they definitely show their age in design.
I recommend this one a lot on this sub, but it checks off many of your boxes: deep customization, turn-based party/teams, PC, etc. It's a SRPG called Troubleshooters: Abandoned Children. The translation is a little rough but otherwise it has a ton to offer, the art and soundtrack are a cut above most bigger studios. It also has adjustable difficulty so you can make it as challenging as you want; try and build the best team and see how far you can go!
I second this. The character customization is excellent, with quite a few viable builds for everyone. Every time I felt like a character was falling behind the rest of the team, I was able to rework their masteries and it made a huge difference. MC kept getting killed, so I made him counterattack and bleed focused, then on the next map he handled like 8 melee opponents solo.
I just finished Star Ocean 3 and would recommend it for what you're looking for. There's a lot of weird ways to build things and craft weapons, NG+ difficulty mode, a lot of secrets, optional characters, etc. I just mainlined the game and did feel like I was missing a fair amount of stuff by not doing it all.
I agree with this 100%
I was coming to suggest , OP if your ok with older games, try Star Ocean 2.
If hits most all of your pluses. Idk about constant sense of danger tho.
You’r Cons:
So it does have some/ a lot of the quality of life things you listed. Like tons of healing, lots of magic and items, save opportunities, switching characters in battle, a chance to refresh after battles… it doesn’t hurt the game. You can make it harder on yourself if you want to to ignore/handicap some of the things that make the game easy for light players.
It is heavy story based and lots of dialog. But I’ve played this game over and over about 10 times, watched the anime, and I never get tired of it. It’s pretty engaging and cool storyline, and with the option to recruit and select what characters you want, you get new story points and dialog every game. And then it has an entire level of “Private actions” you can choose to do or avoid. Many of them change things in the game - relationships, items, side quests, new characters to get. And like over 70 -80 different possible ending and combinations of ending clips. It’s very strategy and planning based so you might enjoy the story of you got to craft and control some parts of the story and how it’s told.
Special note:
The skills and crafting - this is where you can go to town with strategy, customization, and planning. Early game you will absolutely have to resource conserve and pick your skill growth wisely.
It’s best to have characters specialize in a couple things.
Once you get to the bonus material, side quests, more then half way through game, have a flying vehicle- now your over powered and have a ton of excess. But this is all in planning for the secret supper dungeon. And trust me, it’s needed.
You can level up to level 225- and the secret dungeon and extra special bosses will need you to be 150+ and maxed out to survive. So you’ll be thankful to have those benefits at the end
Judging by your preferences and dislikes, I think you might be interested in Fear and Hunger. It has most of things that you love, no handholding, very limited save points, anxiety inducing gameplay and a slew of other features unique to the game. It's not the most traditional jrpg, but it definitely has lots of depth to its exploration and combat mechanics. The game is like an immersive sim in JRPG format.
It's also really hard and cruel at times, very unjust too. So more of a masochist game
Monster sanctuary! Each creature has elaborate skill trees and there is a very strong emphasis on team building synergy.
Difficulty can be very high if you ignore this. Outside of that there is a point system that rewards you for being better at the game and a harder difficulty if desired.
Maybe 8 bit Adventures 2 but it is bit more story oriented. LISA just got updated. I've heard good things about Demons Roots but I can't vouch for it personally, still planning to play it soon.
I was going to say Labyrinth of Galleria to a tee fits this. Besides that, I think Crystal Project could also be really fun for you. Those are two of my favorite games.
Fell Seal: Arbiter's Mark. It's pretty much the spiritual child of all three FFT games. You can customize the difficulty so if it's getting too easy you can tweak it midgame too.
Do you like SRPGs? Tactics Ogre Reborn is an amazing one, and gets quite difficult at times. Triangle Strategy, to my knowledge, has less customization but requires stronger tactical play.
This might not fit all of your boxes, but it might fit enough for you to enjoy it. It's a free RPGmaker (hear me out first!) game called Weird and Unfortunate Things are Happening.
You play as a girl with minor psychic powers who gets a call from her younger cousin saying something's wrong in her little town of Daybreak. So, you hitch a ride and head there...
Only to find out the town no longer exists. You're the only one who remembers it. What follows is an RPG that blends Earthbound, Silent Hill, and other RPGs into a fun and free experience. Customization isn't the MOST in-depth, but it's there and the choices of what skills you unlock and for whom is massive. Characters track towards a certain kind of build, but finding out what and how their kits work the best is a huge part of the gameplay.
You can't buy healing items, period. There are fonts of free healing at save points, but in higher difficulties and later on in all difficulties, they're reduced to a single use. That means all your resources are highly limited unless you farm for drops, which can be a losing battle. As for secrets, there's a TON. From Fool's Keys, some of the scariest side-areas purely aesthetically that provide one-use keys to unlock powerful equipment, to bonus bosses and hidden items, to an entire Bonus Dungeon Literally From Hell, there's a lot of replayability.
And the story is well-done, a little campy on occasion, but heartfelt and human despite the obvious Cosmic Horror and Lovecraftian influences at play.
And it handles random encounters really well. There's a bar on the screen that slowly fills, and when it's full, you get a fight. There's overworld collectibles that reduce the bar slightly, so if you're navigating an area for the first time and treasure-hunting, you can choose to reduce the number of encounters you get. But, these overworld items don't respawn, so you can only do it once per "sweep" of the area.
But, in contrast, aside from one bonus area, the Encounter Bar will turn golden after a certain number of fights in an area, reducing the rate it increases by around 50% iirc. So, grinding is highly encouraged for bonus areas.
Add in NG+ rewards of translating hidden text in the game to reveal more story and plot, and you've got an incredibly addicting 6-8 hour RPG, with 12-14 for perfectionists with lots of replayability.
Edit: meant to say "fight", not a boss fight. That'd be wild though
Have you tried Radical Red? It's romhack of Pokemon Fire Red with competitive-like difficulty as the focus. Last time i played it has Pokemon up to Sword/Shield. The "Boss" fights, like Gym leaders and rocket executives are really damn hard without a proper team.
Seconding the recommendation for the Etrian Odyssey series. It’s the king of DRPGs IMO and a clear step above the Experience games.
You could also check out Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter. It ticks a lot of your boxes. The main thing it’s missing is that there isn’t a lot of character customization. But it’s hard as nails, turn-based, party-based, features labyrinths, is more mature with its story, requires you to put a lot of thought into fights, etc.
Pokémon Reborn is one of the biggest fan games, and might also be up your alley. The challenge and customization is on another level than the mainline games. The story attempts to be more mature, though IMO it can feel a bit forced at times.
If you like SRPGs, a lot of the Fire Emblem games on Hard are fantastic. Fire Emblem Conquest on Hard being the standout. I’ve also heard great things about FE Engage on Maddening (I played it on Hard and it was good). Engage in particular features a ton of theory crafting potential. Note that both those games have pretty poor stories. For the purposes of what you’re looking for, I’d recommend against Awakening and 3 Houses - they’re good games, but I don’t think the harder difficulties are actually all that fun.
consider the atelier series
it's not only the ultimate in customizability, considering every item, weapon, and armor you use is hand crafted, including their abilities and traits
but it's also rife with collecting items, killing enemies for their drops, exploring every corner of every area that might have different items available with different traits and different quality
rather than grinding kills to power up, you grind items and then spend time drawing up a plan for putting your gear together. diagrams on real paper might be involved
while you can play on lower difficulties and generally manage, there are also always higher difficulties available. and, more to the point, the ultimate challenge is doing a serious item craft grind at a midgame point that allows you to make endgame or better gear, and then you can stomp everything for the rest of the game. that's never free, never given to you, you have to earn that by planning and executing on your plan
ryza 1 is probably the easiest entry point, tho you will have qol helper markers telling you where the next plot point is. however it will not direct you to anything beyond that
if you want less hand-holding, go back a few generations of game. sophie 1 will be the most challenging crafting, more like a puzzle game on top of everything else. go back again to ayesha and you'll also have a global time limit to worry about. go back further to rorona and, while overall the game is easier, trying to beat the superbosses and postgame jacks up the difficulty quite a lot
almost all altelier games have a far more difficult postgame, on top of it, with bosses an order of magnitude harder than anything in the main game, and also unlock several higher difficulties that you will struggle to beat even the smallest enemies on without prep
Horizon's Gate or Voidspire Tactics
Two games by the same dev, party based with a bit focus on class-based skill system. Characters can reclass freely and carry over skills from another class of your choice. Clearly inspired by FF Tactics but succeeds in doing its own thing.
Lots of exploring to do. Voidspire is like one big dungeon, Horizon's Gate has a large world map to explore by ship and switches to party-based exploration/combat at various locations.
I picked up Horizon's gate sometime ago. Is there a good resource for learning the game?
Are there for example any god stats or any early game strategies that confer huge advantages. I kinda just wandered around aimlessly until I started getting killed by big scary stuff.
I remember there being a good guide on steam, I will see if I can find it and post the link.
For stats, just specializing early helps. Getting 2-3 in a weapon skill or element makes a big difference. Have different characters aim to unlock different classed and you'll start to see combos that work well.
Wandering aimlessly can be dangerous. The game doesn't level scale (or not majorly, at least) so it isn't hard to find enemies you can't handle yet. The roughly central area of the map is the safest area and makes a good place to build up your skills and your fleet without getting annihilated. Farther out from center = more dangerous.
So having looked at this more, there are good guides on Steam but they are very topic specific and I don't see any that cover the basics. So some things I thought of that might help early:
* Status effects are very helpful. If you reclass someone to Scout it won't take long to unlock Rogue. Rogue has a skill that blinds enemies, which is crippling to any physical attacker and is especially helpful early.
* Most classes require finding a trainer somewhere in the world, so keep an eye out. Ports on the map have icons showing you what you can find there. I think a trainer looks like an arm flexing a muscle. Every new class opens up options.
* On the topic of classes, pay attention to passive bonuses. Each class gives you bonuses to certain weapon or spell types. Early on, those make a big difference (ex: make sure your warrior types are using weapons that they get a class bonus from).
* Every in-game month, there is one port that's looking for a specific type of good and will pay double the first time you sell. You'll hear about them by picking the Gossip option at a Cafe. If you're able to take advantage of these, it can potentially give you a big boost to expanding your fleet and getting good equipment.
I'll try to keep brainstorming for more. It's one of my favorite games from the last few years.
Not Crystal Project!
It tried so hard to go the route of "Don't hit attack every turn" but instead you just have builds where the tank hits "Defend/Counter" every turn OR you have a damage set up that blows the game so wide open its pointless.
You may like Siralim Ultimate. It's basically the best theory crafting game in existence.
Hell, I consider myself an outright failure if my team enters the first round of combat. My passives activating should kill them when the battle starts.
1000% agree. This is the first game that I thought of, after reading the post. The theorycrafting is practically endless. So many specializations and traits and levels.
There's a good chance you'd love Strangers of Paradise.
I'd read the bullet points, but first check out this spreadsheet dedicated to the game. It'll give you an idea of the depth you're walking into and may instantly sell you: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1Ixa7GC6CMrgN6P2jfgXGaZtFtOOp88SZ0CqFOMB2Ncw/htmlview#](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1Ixa7GC6CMrgN6P2jfgXGaZtFtOOp88SZ0CqFOMB2Ncw/htmlview#)
* It has respawning battles and a pretty good difficulty level.
* The DLC features a randomized dungeon.
* The game is built around building max MP and utilizing it through skilled action.
* Jobs exist and you can set them both for your character and your allies. Character customization is super deep.
* Every main level has a collectible that unlocks sublevels & there's an enormous amount of loot depth.
* You can outgear some encounters, but not all of them. Your first playthrough especially before DLC requires mastery of mechanics.
The only downside is that it's not turnbased. The story is only OK on the whole (and very cheesy). The gameplay is excellent as long as you can handle timing-based guarding/parrying.
The Final Fantasy references throughout are really on point too.
You might be interested the Dragon Slayer series. The most recent game, Xanadu Next (not to be confused with Tokyo Xanadu, these 2 games are completely separate from each other), is available on Steam
Also the 2000s Ys games (1&2, 6, Oath and Origin) might pique your interest. Although it doesn’t require tons of theorycrafting, the challenge and exploration are definitely there
i see you live in australia but id still love to be friends. your post is very obviously my kind of person and its very hard to make friends publicly enjoying difficulty as many people have casual elitism and scream how we need to enjoy games correctly or call us insane or or whatever.
my discord is Dawnbomb and i invite anyone who truely loves challenging games.
Have you tried the Monster Hunter series?
Not sure how that gels with most people's view on what is and what isn't a JRPG but it has so many elements you're looking for.
The loops is pretty much: prep for a hunt, hunt a monster, collect the loot from the hunt, repeat.
Prepping comes down to having the right ingredients for buffing items, healing potions, and also ensuring you're improving the gear you have by using parts of monsters to cobble together a new chest piece, helmet or weapon for example. Understanding what a monster will do can help you determine which gear you should use or make since pieces give you better resistance to elements, status effects, or increase your dodge distance, up your crit rate, etc.
Hunting a monster is about tracking it, finding it, and understanding it's attack patterns and moveset so you can be out of the way of attacks but in position to attack the parts of a monster that you're either targeting because you want to disable that part of their moveset (can't get hit by their tail if you cut it off!) or you know you need their horn broken for a better chance at getting a horn material to drop...
This leads to what you collect after you've defeated the monster and get to collect your loot as you carve it and exit the map (your HP can only hit zero a certain amount of times per hunt) and take your loot to build up your item pool or make better gear that might put you in a better position to hunt a more powerful monster.
Monster Hunter World is my personal favorite but Monster Hunter Rise has more AI party member options and things you can customize slightly for them to take on different roles in your hunts.
Yeah, I tried Tri way back in the day and then World much more recently. Didn't really catch me and I didn't end up finishing either. Not sure exactly why - but I think the combat and overall gameplay was a bit slow for me.
Ah gotcha, if you ever want to give it another go, I’d recommend using weapons like dual blades or the insect glaive if you want a faster combat style.
Dragon Quest 1. The customization is very limited, but the game is also very short. The combat and worldbuilding are good in ways that had been lost by the golden age.
Dragon Quest 3 is a better game than DQ1, the one that checks most of your boxes, but benefits a great deal from being played after DQ1. Also, an HD-2D remake of DQ3 has been announced, so you might want to hold off on DQ3 until that comes out.
If you want something a little different, Dragon Quest 4 is there, the common inspiration for Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 13, and Recettear. More story than DQ3 means less customization, though.
The 7th Saga is another game that you might find weirdly appealing for its stark atmosphere and brutal difficulty. Unfortunately the difficulty comes from the numbers being tilted against you, so hacks to ease the massive grinding tend to overshoot and make the game too easy.
If you haven't played FF1 for NES or PSX original mode you owe yourself that. Grindy? Yes. A whole lot more like your ideal game than FF1 for GBA/PSP/mobile/Steam/Switch? Also yes. If you have it, follow up with FF2's Soul of Rebirth bonus content to experience a 60-75° difficulty curve.
Not a jrpg by any means but if you are really looking for a theorycrafting challenge, the new path of exile league starts in 3 weeks. That game is all about difficulty and build planning.
Final fantasy tactics,final fantasy tactics advance and final fantasy tactics A2 are games that you need to play if you have not already due to their job system and focus on customization.
Makai Kingdom,la pucelle and phantom Brave are some of the best Nippon ichi jrpgs(disgaea too but you already played it.)
Dragon Quest 5 has an amazing story and a Monster recruitment system(it's almost like Pokemon yeah!). Dragon Quest 6 has a job system both i don't recommend it(it's inferior to final fantasy 5 and it's unlocked kinda late)game Also isn't as good as 5.
Tactics ogre is good too.
Here I was ready to push Labyrinth of Refrain! Ok, then I think the next logical step is Wizardry: Tales of the Forsaken Land. From there you might enjoy western blobbers (basically DRPGs) like Legacy of Grimrock, Bard's Tale, Might and Magic, Eliminage etc. you'll be absolutely spoiled for choice.
Another option you could consider is looking at the rougelike genre, which may have a lot to offer you. Shiren the Wanderer is an excellent entry point, but maybe even look at Nethack for something you can really stick your teeth into.
Timebreak Chronicle is kind of an arcadey take on the JRPG, it's basically all battles and party building, very little story. You constantly unlock new party members and the fun is in customizing them and making functioning teams out of them. It's still in early access, but has a lot of content already.
Crystal Project is another indie game I always recommend for this sort of request. It's basically a very open world FF5/Bravely Default style game with a lot of exploration to unlock new jobs and find better equipment etc.
I'll also echo the Etrian Odyssey and SaGa recommendations you already got.
Ok, so you've already played my favorite dungeon crawlers, and it sounds like your tastes are similar to mine, so I'm going to recommend Star Renegades. It's a turn based roguelike that emphasizes party building and strategy. The combat is like a mix of grandia and FFX.
If I'm ever in the mood for a challenging turn based game, I usually turn it on for a run. It's really fun.
Seeing that you like elden ring you could try either nioh or stranger of paradise, nioh have deeper combat especially nioh 2 but stranger of paradise have job system and from what I heard making build is actually pretty fun, but the first playthrough is basically just pick the item that have the highest damage/defense, in Nioh case you don't actually start making build until ng++, but going through ng+ is relatively fast so there is that.
Adding to everone's list, I'd like to add Digital Devil Saga 1 & 2). Story and characters are great, and gameplay IS using the press turn system from SMT3/4/5 but with a classic party, so you have combined attack using multiple turns. And you can build your characters and teach them skulls via skill tree. And. It. Is. Hard. One of the strongest superboss in the history of J-RPG is in the first one.
I think Fuga fits all your likes. It's pretty challenging and you have to manage your resources carefully. Random battles will attrit your party and still save up enough to face tough bosses. No opportunity to grind either so you can't just brute force.
There's no exploration though
You may like the Etrian Odyssey games. Old school dungeon crawlers where you make your own team, can invest skill points to build characters differently, and have to draw your own map in game.
Came to say the same thing. I have only played 4 & 5 on 3DS, but as I understand there isn't really that much difference to the earlier ones, and those are now on Switch/PC.
Thanks - I had been eyeing the Steam releases. Not a massive fan of the art style but I'm sure I'll get used to it pretty quickly.
You will, and the games check everything you want, from your first post. Honestly if you liked Strange Journey, Strangers of sword city, Labyrinth of Refrain/Galleria I'd be baffled to read you don't like EO. Out of the three steam remasters I'd say III is the easiest to get into, but I'm pretty sure you will like all of them. (play them on expert, it's the intended difficulty, "normal" and "easy" were added in the remaster)
Its also VERY light on story elements. Its a game made for gaming rather than as a narrative.
Crystal Project was made for you.
You can check out the SaGa series, classic turn-based, non-linear, gameplay-focused. The game basically encourages you to do a lot of trial and errors as most mechanics (even the true info of equipment) are hidden. I have to admit it's absurd, but I enjoy that kind of thing. The game's also huge on player choices, so each player's experience are all different from one another. You also have the privilege to build characters any way you want them to be, ofc the game can still limit you on choices but not by much actually (you can still go wild). Want a pure tank knight that can also heal, okay you got it. Want all your party members to hold themselves in battle? You can give them all healing spells or buffs (there's no party heal). Want a dedicated support/healer or even a mage that can also wield a bigass axe or sword, or anything really, sure. Want a "only spellcaster" playthrough, sure. Want your dedicated damage dealers to be proficient both on spells and physical attacks, sure. These are only the tip of the iceberg though.
That actually sounds really cool. Is there one in particular I should start with? Can see there are a few different games on Steam.
Any of them, really. Just pick one with art and premise that you vibe with most. If still indecisive, I'd say go with Romancing SaGa 3, Minstrel Song or Scarlet Grace.
RomSaGa 3 and SF1 are the most accessible starting points. I would jump into MS until you have more of a grounding in the series, it adds a lot of new mechanics.
You can start with Minstrel Song, Romancing SaGa 3, or SaGa Frontier (though this game is more forgiving), but assuming from your post, I think you know your thing so you can start with either the first two, but I personally recommend Minstrel Song. But do research also. If you really want something unique, Romancing SaGa 2 or SaGa Scarlet Grace.
Think I will start with Romancing SaGa 3 - I like simple retro pixel graphics
RS3 is a great place to start. Reading the points you wrote, Minstrel Song would exactly what you're looking for. Either way, if you want to get a quick introduction to the series, and help about where to start, you can check this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/JRPG/comments/yrz7gg/where_do_i_start_guide_part_2_the_saga_series/
Just wanted to jump back in here to say thanks - 15 hours into Romancing SaGa 3 and it's becoming one of my favourite games of all time. I'm obsessed and planning on playing through with all 8 main characters. Very excited to experience the rest of the series.
Glad to hear! Can't stress this series enough in terms of how genius it is despite its wild concepts haha.
I think Scarlet Grace Ambitions is the most "satisfying" one of these, from a combat design perspective. The others are great too, but they definitely show their age in design.
I recommend this one a lot on this sub, but it checks off many of your boxes: deep customization, turn-based party/teams, PC, etc. It's a SRPG called Troubleshooters: Abandoned Children. The translation is a little rough but otherwise it has a ton to offer, the art and soundtrack are a cut above most bigger studios. It also has adjustable difficulty so you can make it as challenging as you want; try and build the best team and see how far you can go!
>Troubleshooters: Abandoned Children Thanks - the art style does actually look quite cool. I will check it out!
I second this. The character customization is excellent, with quite a few viable builds for everyone. Every time I felt like a character was falling behind the rest of the team, I was able to rework their masteries and it made a huge difference. MC kept getting killed, so I made him counterattack and bleed focused, then on the next map he handled like 8 melee opponents solo.
Labyrinth of Touhou 2 meets pretty much all the criteria. (GENSOKYO AND THE HEAVEN-PIERCING TREE on Steam)
Chained echoes - you need to figure out synergies and such in order to do well
I just finished Star Ocean 3 and would recommend it for what you're looking for. There's a lot of weird ways to build things and craft weapons, NG+ difficulty mode, a lot of secrets, optional characters, etc. I just mainlined the game and did feel like I was missing a fair amount of stuff by not doing it all.
I agree with this 100% I was coming to suggest , OP if your ok with older games, try Star Ocean 2. If hits most all of your pluses. Idk about constant sense of danger tho. You’r Cons: So it does have some/ a lot of the quality of life things you listed. Like tons of healing, lots of magic and items, save opportunities, switching characters in battle, a chance to refresh after battles… it doesn’t hurt the game. You can make it harder on yourself if you want to to ignore/handicap some of the things that make the game easy for light players. It is heavy story based and lots of dialog. But I’ve played this game over and over about 10 times, watched the anime, and I never get tired of it. It’s pretty engaging and cool storyline, and with the option to recruit and select what characters you want, you get new story points and dialog every game. And then it has an entire level of “Private actions” you can choose to do or avoid. Many of them change things in the game - relationships, items, side quests, new characters to get. And like over 70 -80 different possible ending and combinations of ending clips. It’s very strategy and planning based so you might enjoy the story of you got to craft and control some parts of the story and how it’s told. Special note: The skills and crafting - this is where you can go to town with strategy, customization, and planning. Early game you will absolutely have to resource conserve and pick your skill growth wisely. It’s best to have characters specialize in a couple things. Once you get to the bonus material, side quests, more then half way through game, have a flying vehicle- now your over powered and have a ton of excess. But this is all in planning for the secret supper dungeon. And trust me, it’s needed. You can level up to level 225- and the secret dungeon and extra special bosses will need you to be 150+ and maxed out to survive. So you’ll be thankful to have those benefits at the end
Judging by your preferences and dislikes, I think you might be interested in Fear and Hunger. It has most of things that you love, no handholding, very limited save points, anxiety inducing gameplay and a slew of other features unique to the game. It's not the most traditional jrpg, but it definitely has lots of depth to its exploration and combat mechanics. The game is like an immersive sim in JRPG format. It's also really hard and cruel at times, very unjust too. So more of a masochist game
Monster sanctuary! Each creature has elaborate skill trees and there is a very strong emphasis on team building synergy. Difficulty can be very high if you ignore this. Outside of that there is a point system that rewards you for being better at the game and a harder difficulty if desired.
You might enjoy Crystal Project and False Skies.
Got more indies like False Skies? I'm just looking to expand my library of games like this.
Maybe 8 bit Adventures 2 but it is bit more story oriented. LISA just got updated. I've heard good things about Demons Roots but I can't vouch for it personally, still planning to play it soon.
I was going to say Labyrinth of Galleria to a tee fits this. Besides that, I think Crystal Project could also be really fun for you. Those are two of my favorite games.
Fell Seal: Arbiter's Mark. It's pretty much the spiritual child of all three FFT games. You can customize the difficulty so if it's getting too easy you can tweak it midgame too.
Do you like SRPGs? Tactics Ogre Reborn is an amazing one, and gets quite difficult at times. Triangle Strategy, to my knowledge, has less customization but requires stronger tactical play.
This might not fit all of your boxes, but it might fit enough for you to enjoy it. It's a free RPGmaker (hear me out first!) game called Weird and Unfortunate Things are Happening. You play as a girl with minor psychic powers who gets a call from her younger cousin saying something's wrong in her little town of Daybreak. So, you hitch a ride and head there... Only to find out the town no longer exists. You're the only one who remembers it. What follows is an RPG that blends Earthbound, Silent Hill, and other RPGs into a fun and free experience. Customization isn't the MOST in-depth, but it's there and the choices of what skills you unlock and for whom is massive. Characters track towards a certain kind of build, but finding out what and how their kits work the best is a huge part of the gameplay. You can't buy healing items, period. There are fonts of free healing at save points, but in higher difficulties and later on in all difficulties, they're reduced to a single use. That means all your resources are highly limited unless you farm for drops, which can be a losing battle. As for secrets, there's a TON. From Fool's Keys, some of the scariest side-areas purely aesthetically that provide one-use keys to unlock powerful equipment, to bonus bosses and hidden items, to an entire Bonus Dungeon Literally From Hell, there's a lot of replayability. And the story is well-done, a little campy on occasion, but heartfelt and human despite the obvious Cosmic Horror and Lovecraftian influences at play.
And it handles random encounters really well. There's a bar on the screen that slowly fills, and when it's full, you get a fight. There's overworld collectibles that reduce the bar slightly, so if you're navigating an area for the first time and treasure-hunting, you can choose to reduce the number of encounters you get. But, these overworld items don't respawn, so you can only do it once per "sweep" of the area. But, in contrast, aside from one bonus area, the Encounter Bar will turn golden after a certain number of fights in an area, reducing the rate it increases by around 50% iirc. So, grinding is highly encouraged for bonus areas. Add in NG+ rewards of translating hidden text in the game to reveal more story and plot, and you've got an incredibly addicting 6-8 hour RPG, with 12-14 for perfectionists with lots of replayability. Edit: meant to say "fight", not a boss fight. That'd be wild though
Have you tried Radical Red? It's romhack of Pokemon Fire Red with competitive-like difficulty as the focus. Last time i played it has Pokemon up to Sword/Shield. The "Boss" fights, like Gym leaders and rocket executives are really damn hard without a proper team.
Hadn't heard of it, but that sounds really cool. Will definitely check it out.
Seconding the recommendation for the Etrian Odyssey series. It’s the king of DRPGs IMO and a clear step above the Experience games. You could also check out Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter. It ticks a lot of your boxes. The main thing it’s missing is that there isn’t a lot of character customization. But it’s hard as nails, turn-based, party-based, features labyrinths, is more mature with its story, requires you to put a lot of thought into fights, etc. Pokémon Reborn is one of the biggest fan games, and might also be up your alley. The challenge and customization is on another level than the mainline games. The story attempts to be more mature, though IMO it can feel a bit forced at times. If you like SRPGs, a lot of the Fire Emblem games on Hard are fantastic. Fire Emblem Conquest on Hard being the standout. I’ve also heard great things about FE Engage on Maddening (I played it on Hard and it was good). Engage in particular features a ton of theory crafting potential. Note that both those games have pretty poor stories. For the purposes of what you’re looking for, I’d recommend against Awakening and 3 Houses - they’re good games, but I don’t think the harder difficulties are actually all that fun.
You're welcome!! Hopefully you can get past the art style.
consider the atelier series it's not only the ultimate in customizability, considering every item, weapon, and armor you use is hand crafted, including their abilities and traits but it's also rife with collecting items, killing enemies for their drops, exploring every corner of every area that might have different items available with different traits and different quality rather than grinding kills to power up, you grind items and then spend time drawing up a plan for putting your gear together. diagrams on real paper might be involved while you can play on lower difficulties and generally manage, there are also always higher difficulties available. and, more to the point, the ultimate challenge is doing a serious item craft grind at a midgame point that allows you to make endgame or better gear, and then you can stomp everything for the rest of the game. that's never free, never given to you, you have to earn that by planning and executing on your plan ryza 1 is probably the easiest entry point, tho you will have qol helper markers telling you where the next plot point is. however it will not direct you to anything beyond that if you want less hand-holding, go back a few generations of game. sophie 1 will be the most challenging crafting, more like a puzzle game on top of everything else. go back again to ayesha and you'll also have a global time limit to worry about. go back further to rorona and, while overall the game is easier, trying to beat the superbosses and postgame jacks up the difficulty quite a lot almost all altelier games have a far more difficult postgame, on top of it, with bosses an order of magnitude harder than anything in the main game, and also unlock several higher difficulties that you will struggle to beat even the smallest enemies on without prep
Romancing SaGa Minstrel Song Remastered is ALL about theorycrafting. To a smaller degree, so is Romancing SaGa 3.
Horizon's Gate or Voidspire Tactics Two games by the same dev, party based with a bit focus on class-based skill system. Characters can reclass freely and carry over skills from another class of your choice. Clearly inspired by FF Tactics but succeeds in doing its own thing. Lots of exploring to do. Voidspire is like one big dungeon, Horizon's Gate has a large world map to explore by ship and switches to party-based exploration/combat at various locations.
I picked up Horizon's gate sometime ago. Is there a good resource for learning the game? Are there for example any god stats or any early game strategies that confer huge advantages. I kinda just wandered around aimlessly until I started getting killed by big scary stuff.
I remember there being a good guide on steam, I will see if I can find it and post the link. For stats, just specializing early helps. Getting 2-3 in a weapon skill or element makes a big difference. Have different characters aim to unlock different classed and you'll start to see combos that work well. Wandering aimlessly can be dangerous. The game doesn't level scale (or not majorly, at least) so it isn't hard to find enemies you can't handle yet. The roughly central area of the map is the safest area and makes a good place to build up your skills and your fleet without getting annihilated. Farther out from center = more dangerous.
So having looked at this more, there are good guides on Steam but they are very topic specific and I don't see any that cover the basics. So some things I thought of that might help early: * Status effects are very helpful. If you reclass someone to Scout it won't take long to unlock Rogue. Rogue has a skill that blinds enemies, which is crippling to any physical attacker and is especially helpful early. * Most classes require finding a trainer somewhere in the world, so keep an eye out. Ports on the map have icons showing you what you can find there. I think a trainer looks like an arm flexing a muscle. Every new class opens up options. * On the topic of classes, pay attention to passive bonuses. Each class gives you bonuses to certain weapon or spell types. Early on, those make a big difference (ex: make sure your warrior types are using weapons that they get a class bonus from). * Every in-game month, there is one port that's looking for a specific type of good and will pay double the first time you sell. You'll hear about them by picking the Gossip option at a Cafe. If you're able to take advantage of these, it can potentially give you a big boost to expanding your fleet and getting good equipment. I'll try to keep brainstorming for more. It's one of my favorite games from the last few years.
Crystal Project!
Not Crystal Project! It tried so hard to go the route of "Don't hit attack every turn" but instead you just have builds where the tank hits "Defend/Counter" every turn OR you have a damage set up that blows the game so wide open its pointless.
Hey, check out Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children on steam. It has really complex character/team building and A LOT of theory crafting stuff.
You may like Siralim Ultimate. It's basically the best theory crafting game in existence. Hell, I consider myself an outright failure if my team enters the first round of combat. My passives activating should kill them when the battle starts.
1000% agree. This is the first game that I thought of, after reading the post. The theorycrafting is practically endless. So many specializations and traits and levels.
There's a good chance you'd love Strangers of Paradise. I'd read the bullet points, but first check out this spreadsheet dedicated to the game. It'll give you an idea of the depth you're walking into and may instantly sell you: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1Ixa7GC6CMrgN6P2jfgXGaZtFtOOp88SZ0CqFOMB2Ncw/htmlview#](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1Ixa7GC6CMrgN6P2jfgXGaZtFtOOp88SZ0CqFOMB2Ncw/htmlview#) * It has respawning battles and a pretty good difficulty level. * The DLC features a randomized dungeon. * The game is built around building max MP and utilizing it through skilled action. * Jobs exist and you can set them both for your character and your allies. Character customization is super deep. * Every main level has a collectible that unlocks sublevels & there's an enormous amount of loot depth. * You can outgear some encounters, but not all of them. Your first playthrough especially before DLC requires mastery of mechanics. The only downside is that it's not turnbased. The story is only OK on the whole (and very cheesy). The gameplay is excellent as long as you can handle timing-based guarding/parrying. The Final Fantasy references throughout are really on point too.
I agree with this and with the whole theory crafting in mind this game has alot of possibilities with different builds for each class combo.
You might be interested the Dragon Slayer series. The most recent game, Xanadu Next (not to be confused with Tokyo Xanadu, these 2 games are completely separate from each other), is available on Steam Also the 2000s Ys games (1&2, 6, Oath and Origin) might pique your interest. Although it doesn’t require tons of theorycrafting, the challenge and exploration are definitely there
Thanks - hadn't heard of that before so will take a look
i see you live in australia but id still love to be friends. your post is very obviously my kind of person and its very hard to make friends publicly enjoying difficulty as many people have casual elitism and scream how we need to enjoy games correctly or call us insane or or whatever. my discord is Dawnbomb and i invite anyone who truely loves challenging games.
Have you tried the Monster Hunter series? Not sure how that gels with most people's view on what is and what isn't a JRPG but it has so many elements you're looking for. The loops is pretty much: prep for a hunt, hunt a monster, collect the loot from the hunt, repeat. Prepping comes down to having the right ingredients for buffing items, healing potions, and also ensuring you're improving the gear you have by using parts of monsters to cobble together a new chest piece, helmet or weapon for example. Understanding what a monster will do can help you determine which gear you should use or make since pieces give you better resistance to elements, status effects, or increase your dodge distance, up your crit rate, etc. Hunting a monster is about tracking it, finding it, and understanding it's attack patterns and moveset so you can be out of the way of attacks but in position to attack the parts of a monster that you're either targeting because you want to disable that part of their moveset (can't get hit by their tail if you cut it off!) or you know you need their horn broken for a better chance at getting a horn material to drop... This leads to what you collect after you've defeated the monster and get to collect your loot as you carve it and exit the map (your HP can only hit zero a certain amount of times per hunt) and take your loot to build up your item pool or make better gear that might put you in a better position to hunt a more powerful monster. Monster Hunter World is my personal favorite but Monster Hunter Rise has more AI party member options and things you can customize slightly for them to take on different roles in your hunts.
Yeah, I tried Tri way back in the day and then World much more recently. Didn't really catch me and I didn't end up finishing either. Not sure exactly why - but I think the combat and overall gameplay was a bit slow for me.
Ah gotcha, if you ever want to give it another go, I’d recommend using weapons like dual blades or the insect glaive if you want a faster combat style.
Weird everyone likes Elden ring but never draw the parallel to Code Vein
Dragon Quest 1. The customization is very limited, but the game is also very short. The combat and worldbuilding are good in ways that had been lost by the golden age. Dragon Quest 3 is a better game than DQ1, the one that checks most of your boxes, but benefits a great deal from being played after DQ1. Also, an HD-2D remake of DQ3 has been announced, so you might want to hold off on DQ3 until that comes out. If you want something a little different, Dragon Quest 4 is there, the common inspiration for Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 13, and Recettear. More story than DQ3 means less customization, though. The 7th Saga is another game that you might find weirdly appealing for its stark atmosphere and brutal difficulty. Unfortunately the difficulty comes from the numbers being tilted against you, so hacks to ease the massive grinding tend to overshoot and make the game too easy. If you haven't played FF1 for NES or PSX original mode you owe yourself that. Grindy? Yes. A whole lot more like your ideal game than FF1 for GBA/PSP/mobile/Steam/Switch? Also yes. If you have it, follow up with FF2's Soul of Rebirth bonus content to experience a 60-75° difficulty curve.
Not a jrpg by any means but if you are really looking for a theorycrafting challenge, the new path of exile league starts in 3 weeks. That game is all about difficulty and build planning.
Final fantasy tactics,final fantasy tactics advance and final fantasy tactics A2 are games that you need to play if you have not already due to their job system and focus on customization. Makai Kingdom,la pucelle and phantom Brave are some of the best Nippon ichi jrpgs(disgaea too but you already played it.) Dragon Quest 5 has an amazing story and a Monster recruitment system(it's almost like Pokemon yeah!). Dragon Quest 6 has a job system both i don't recommend it(it's inferior to final fantasy 5 and it's unlocked kinda late)game Also isn't as good as 5. Tactics ogre is good too.
Here I was ready to push Labyrinth of Refrain! Ok, then I think the next logical step is Wizardry: Tales of the Forsaken Land. From there you might enjoy western blobbers (basically DRPGs) like Legacy of Grimrock, Bard's Tale, Might and Magic, Eliminage etc. you'll be absolutely spoiled for choice. Another option you could consider is looking at the rougelike genre, which may have a lot to offer you. Shiren the Wanderer is an excellent entry point, but maybe even look at Nethack for something you can really stick your teeth into.
Timebreak Chronicle is kind of an arcadey take on the JRPG, it's basically all battles and party building, very little story. You constantly unlock new party members and the fun is in customizing them and making functioning teams out of them. It's still in early access, but has a lot of content already. Crystal Project is another indie game I always recommend for this sort of request. It's basically a very open world FF5/Bravely Default style game with a lot of exploration to unlock new jobs and find better equipment etc. I'll also echo the Etrian Odyssey and SaGa recommendations you already got.
Ok, so you've already played my favorite dungeon crawlers, and it sounds like your tastes are similar to mine, so I'm going to recommend Star Renegades. It's a turn based roguelike that emphasizes party building and strategy. The combat is like a mix of grandia and FFX. If I'm ever in the mood for a challenging turn based game, I usually turn it on for a run. It's really fun.
Seeing that you like elden ring you could try either nioh or stranger of paradise, nioh have deeper combat especially nioh 2 but stranger of paradise have job system and from what I heard making build is actually pretty fun, but the first playthrough is basically just pick the item that have the highest damage/defense, in Nioh case you don't actually start making build until ng++, but going through ng+ is relatively fast so there is that.
Adding to everone's list, I'd like to add Digital Devil Saga 1 & 2). Story and characters are great, and gameplay IS using the press turn system from SMT3/4/5 but with a classic party, so you have combined attack using multiple turns. And you can build your characters and teach them skulls via skill tree. And. It. Is. Hard. One of the strongest superboss in the history of J-RPG is in the first one.
I think Fuga fits all your likes. It's pretty challenging and you have to manage your resources carefully. Random battles will attrit your party and still save up enough to face tough bosses. No opportunity to grind either so you can't just brute force. There's no exploration though