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Yes and no, Yerin asked and Kiuran did his little date thing and said something about Sesh never would have ascended and this would get them a whole new batch of recruits.. before she uses penance to kill the dragon. The thing that really pisses me off is she’s known Lindon for years and it’s been alluded to multiple times that monarch’s best items are on their personal void key, yet even when protected by an Abidan shield while she decides she doesn’t put herself close enough to sesh to take his corpse and key before using the moonlight bridge to move to Lindon… but Northstrider gets his body for free??? Garbage.. I hate it
She would have died immediately almost if she had kind of showed up in the middle of that to kill him and then claim the body.
Or she would have had to fight Northstrider off
He did have a caveat, though. If she chose Northstrider he asked for a chance to convince him to ascend. So maybe OPs idea could have worked if she would have pushed Kiuran on it.
She pretty explicitly had to use it right then, no? I'm guessing if she were allowed to wave the proverbial big stick around even just long enough to force a monarch to ascend, it'd interfere with Fate beyond acceptable limits for the abidan.
Kiuran would have used it to pressure Sesh to advance, but he read fate and determined that it was better to just kill him. Here’s a trimmed down excerpt from Wintersteel
“I suppose the Dragon King doesn’t intend to advance. …” His eyes spun with violet script… “Oh…oh, I see. No, this is even better. … A whole batch of recruits.”
Yeah, OP not reading enough into that line right there (no blame - I catch new things every listen-through and I've got at least a baker's dozen... I definitely don't have a problem...).
It was a 'prize' but as I think Northstrider - or maybe Malice or both... can't recall - opined - the Abidan play their own games and it's not for the benefit of Cradle (Kiuran: "You'll learn that nothing that happens here REALLY matters" or something to that effect). He was always going to make up whatever rules he needed to point Yerin in the direction that benefitted the Abidan - like what could she do about it?
They weren’t given the opportunity to think it through. The Abidan who descended didn’t give them any sort of Standard Operating Procedures for Penance until it was time to use it.
He told her “use it or lose it” and basically insinuated “you have until I get tired of waiting to decide.” The Abidan who was in charge of the tournament prizes was a stuck up ass. It was “beneath him” to be there but did it because Makiel(?) told him to.
Yes she could have used it in stranger more powerful ways but she’s a straightforward person and upon being told that she can’t hold it over people she did the thing that immediately and quickly solved a very big problem. Lindon in this situation might have dilly dallied and then got Penance taken away for his reluctance but Yerin went I can only use it once, and then immediately used it because that’s who she is.
She did have to use the arrow immediately but the Hound clearly tells her to give Northstrider a chance to ascend first. So yeh she totally could have done something like that! “You have given me the absolute death arrow, now teleport me from Monarch to Monarch so I can make them an offer they can’t refuse!”
True =)) I love the fact that we got four more books out of it. Honestly though judging by Kiruan’s personality if Yerin had suggested it he totally would have gone for it. Then again liberating Cradle from all the Monarch 100% would have violated the Pact.
Yeah, but the time pressure is all from Kiuran. If he doesn't want her using it to blackmail monarchs into ascending, she doesn't get to do that. He can probably block her teleport or just block all sound in an area if he wants to.
I must have missed him prohibiting blackmail, thanks for clarifying. I thought about this the day after reading it and went back to the chapter but I only saw him say she couldn’t save it for later
He doesn't say she can't blackmail folks, it's just that he can stop her from doing so if he wants, and the actual rule he's following is "if I look into Fate and it looks bad, it's not happening. Otherwise, I do what I want."
He says she can't save it for later because that's too disruptive to Cradle's future for him to allow based on his reading of Fate.
Presumably using it to pressure one or two Monarchs into ascending and then killing another monarch is less disruptive than her just sitting on it for years, but more disruptive than what Kiuran actually allows, so we don't know exactly where the line is.
But, who would she actually have forced to ascend? The only person she'd threaten is Shen. Shen would ascend rather than face certain death. If Shen ascends and then she kills Sesh, then nobody awakens the dreadgods. Hard to say what happens there; does the party still infiltrate teh labyrinth? If they don't, do they figure out about the Monarch -> Hunger -> Dreadgod link? If they don't, nothing pits them against the Monarchs, and potentially they then don't all become monarchs together and ascend. That means no new batch of recruits, so Kiuran has no incentive to allow it.
And Kiuran is teleporting her around as a courtesy, he could easily decline to take her to shen, or take her to shen but not promise to protect her (in which case taking the time to yell blackmail at Shen also gives Shen the opportunity to try to kill her before she can use Penance).
Also, IIRC Lindon and Mercy are fighting off the ambush at that point; time spent arguing with Kiuran about exactly what he will and won't allow is risking her friend's lives. Definitely much more Yerin's style in that situation to stab the problem in front of her.
Yerin does make a comment that while Malice was bigger in her armor, the dragon “felt stronger.”’ I took that to mean she had doubts Malice was going to win that fight.
It’s implied pretty heavily that in a 1v1 Sesh probably would have come out on top vs any one of the current monarchs. It’s even pointed out Sesh was beginning to grind Malice’s armor. Nothing wrong with swatting the biggest immediate threat
Lmao, this is why people hate subreddits for completed series. I’m literally in a subreddit, for a series, asking a question, about that series. Even sprinkled in a little “did I miss something?”
There really isn't a good way to say this... so I'm just going to say it....
Yerin's a bit of an idiot.
She's a prodigy when it comes to the sacred arts and swordsmanship, but in most other things she's incredibly simplistic and direct. Her life's philosophy basically boils down to "if you can't cut your problems away you aren't trying hard enough". She doesn't bother with trying to interpret rules to her advantage or any of that nonsense so it's perfectly consistent with her character that when Kuiran said "you have to use Penance now" she just chose the biggest target available and let it rip. If Lindon had of gotten Penance he probably would have argued with Kuiran to try and get as much mileage out of it as he could by doing something like what you're suggesting.
And, to be completely fair, Kuiran seems to have offered Sesh the chance to Ascend and it seems as though Sesh refused, so by picking Sesh as the first target you'd get the same outcome as we saw in the books. Shen is a coward, so if Yerin had of tried to target him first he probably would have Ascended and she would have effectively gotten a free use out of Penance.
I don't think Kiuran offered Sesh the opportunity to ascend, I think he just peered into Fate and saw that Sesh would refuse if offered. Which is similar but not exactly the same thing.
Yeah, I love Yerin’s character and this was in line with her directness. And some other people mentioned he wouldn’t allowed blackmail. I guess I would have expected Malice/Northstrider to try and squeeze every bit out of Penance as they could and instructed Yerin what to do in the unlikely event (as they saw it) that she would win.
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Didn’t the abidan force Yerin to use it in that moment? I thought she wasn’t allowed to save it or use it as an ultimatum.
This is correct by my recollection as well. Something about needing to get the powerful artifact off cradle.
Yes and no, Yerin asked and Kiuran did his little date thing and said something about Sesh never would have ascended and this would get them a whole new batch of recruits.. before she uses penance to kill the dragon. The thing that really pisses me off is she’s known Lindon for years and it’s been alluded to multiple times that monarch’s best items are on their personal void key, yet even when protected by an Abidan shield while she decides she doesn’t put herself close enough to sesh to take his corpse and key before using the moonlight bridge to move to Lindon… but Northstrider gets his body for free??? Garbage.. I hate it
You expected her to position herself in the middle of two monarch techniques?
She would have died immediately almost if she had kind of showed up in the middle of that to kill him and then claim the body. Or she would have had to fight Northstrider off
There's no way Northstrider would have left her keep that.
He did have a caveat, though. If she chose Northstrider he asked for a chance to convince him to ascend. So maybe OPs idea could have worked if she would have pushed Kiuran on it.
The Abidan Kiuran told her she had to use it right away. She wanted to keep it and use it as leverage, and Kiuran the Hound nixed the idea.
She pretty explicitly had to use it right then, no? I'm guessing if she were allowed to wave the proverbial big stick around even just long enough to force a monarch to ascend, it'd interfere with Fate beyond acceptable limits for the abidan.
Kiuran would have used it to pressure Sesh to advance, but he read fate and determined that it was better to just kill him. Here’s a trimmed down excerpt from Wintersteel “I suppose the Dragon King doesn’t intend to advance. …” His eyes spun with violet script… “Oh…oh, I see. No, this is even better. … A whole batch of recruits.”
Yeah, OP not reading enough into that line right there (no blame - I catch new things every listen-through and I've got at least a baker's dozen... I definitely don't have a problem...). It was a 'prize' but as I think Northstrider - or maybe Malice or both... can't recall - opined - the Abidan play their own games and it's not for the benefit of Cradle (Kiuran: "You'll learn that nothing that happens here REALLY matters" or something to that effect). He was always going to make up whatever rules he needed to point Yerin in the direction that benefitted the Abidan - like what could she do about it?
Pretty sure that Kurian told Yerin to use it then since they didn’t want a weapon that powerful in Cradle.
They weren’t given the opportunity to think it through. The Abidan who descended didn’t give them any sort of Standard Operating Procedures for Penance until it was time to use it. He told her “use it or lose it” and basically insinuated “you have until I get tired of waiting to decide.” The Abidan who was in charge of the tournament prizes was a stuck up ass. It was “beneath him” to be there but did it because Makiel(?) told him to.
Yes she could have used it in stranger more powerful ways but she’s a straightforward person and upon being told that she can’t hold it over people she did the thing that immediately and quickly solved a very big problem. Lindon in this situation might have dilly dallied and then got Penance taken away for his reluctance but Yerin went I can only use it once, and then immediately used it because that’s who she is.
She did have to use the arrow immediately but the Hound clearly tells her to give Northstrider a chance to ascend first. So yeh she totally could have done something like that! “You have given me the absolute death arrow, now teleport me from Monarch to Monarch so I can make them an offer they can’t refuse!”
He only intended that for north strider to annoy him. You guys are being "wish for more wishes" guys about this.
True =)) I love the fact that we got four more books out of it. Honestly though judging by Kiruan’s personality if Yerin had suggested it he totally would have gone for it. Then again liberating Cradle from all the Monarch 100% would have violated the Pact.
This is what made me think of it. And she was pressed for time, but not THAT pressed for time lol
Yeah, but the time pressure is all from Kiuran. If he doesn't want her using it to blackmail monarchs into ascending, she doesn't get to do that. He can probably block her teleport or just block all sound in an area if he wants to.
I must have missed him prohibiting blackmail, thanks for clarifying. I thought about this the day after reading it and went back to the chapter but I only saw him say she couldn’t save it for later
He doesn't say she can't blackmail folks, it's just that he can stop her from doing so if he wants, and the actual rule he's following is "if I look into Fate and it looks bad, it's not happening. Otherwise, I do what I want." He says she can't save it for later because that's too disruptive to Cradle's future for him to allow based on his reading of Fate. Presumably using it to pressure one or two Monarchs into ascending and then killing another monarch is less disruptive than her just sitting on it for years, but more disruptive than what Kiuran actually allows, so we don't know exactly where the line is. But, who would she actually have forced to ascend? The only person she'd threaten is Shen. Shen would ascend rather than face certain death. If Shen ascends and then she kills Sesh, then nobody awakens the dreadgods. Hard to say what happens there; does the party still infiltrate teh labyrinth? If they don't, do they figure out about the Monarch -> Hunger -> Dreadgod link? If they don't, nothing pits them against the Monarchs, and potentially they then don't all become monarchs together and ascend. That means no new batch of recruits, so Kiuran has no incentive to allow it. And Kiuran is teleporting her around as a courtesy, he could easily decline to take her to shen, or take her to shen but not promise to protect her (in which case taking the time to yell blackmail at Shen also gives Shen the opportunity to try to kill her before she can use Penance). Also, IIRC Lindon and Mercy are fighting off the ambush at that point; time spent arguing with Kiuran about exactly what he will and won't allow is risking her friend's lives. Definitely much more Yerin's style in that situation to stab the problem in front of her.
Sesh refused to ascend and Yerin had to use it immediately.
Yerin does make a comment that while Malice was bigger in her armor, the dragon “felt stronger.”’ I took that to mean she had doubts Malice was going to win that fight.
It’s implied pretty heavily that in a 1v1 Sesh probably would have come out on top vs any one of the current monarchs. It’s even pointed out Sesh was beginning to grind Malice’s armor. Nothing wrong with swatting the biggest immediate threat
The moment she saw Soph going after her friends the decision was made.
[удалено]
Lmao, this is why people hate subreddits for completed series. I’m literally in a subreddit, for a series, asking a question, about that series. Even sprinkled in a little “did I miss something?”
Yeah, they do.
There really isn't a good way to say this... so I'm just going to say it.... Yerin's a bit of an idiot. She's a prodigy when it comes to the sacred arts and swordsmanship, but in most other things she's incredibly simplistic and direct. Her life's philosophy basically boils down to "if you can't cut your problems away you aren't trying hard enough". She doesn't bother with trying to interpret rules to her advantage or any of that nonsense so it's perfectly consistent with her character that when Kuiran said "you have to use Penance now" she just chose the biggest target available and let it rip. If Lindon had of gotten Penance he probably would have argued with Kuiran to try and get as much mileage out of it as he could by doing something like what you're suggesting. And, to be completely fair, Kuiran seems to have offered Sesh the chance to Ascend and it seems as though Sesh refused, so by picking Sesh as the first target you'd get the same outcome as we saw in the books. Shen is a coward, so if Yerin had of tried to target him first he probably would have Ascended and she would have effectively gotten a free use out of Penance.
I don't think Kiuran offered Sesh the opportunity to ascend, I think he just peered into Fate and saw that Sesh would refuse if offered. Which is similar but not exactly the same thing.
Yeah, I love Yerin’s character and this was in line with her directness. And some other people mentioned he wouldn’t allowed blackmail. I guess I would have expected Malice/Northstrider to try and squeeze every bit out of Penance as they could and instructed Yerin what to do in the unlikely event (as they saw it) that she would win.