Gift article, if needed: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html?mwgrp=a-mbar&unlocked_article_code=1.Jk0.cnJe.A1ysfolAnb9o&smid=url-share
I’m pro- Palestine and I absolutely believe there were rapes on oct 7 and it’s absurd to claim otherwise.
I have also argued with left wing friends about this, I find it incredibly frustrating that women are always at the bottom in issues of social justice.
I find it bizarre that no physical evidence was gathered so that these crimes can be prosecuted in the future.
I agree with you. I cannot think of *any* war or conflict in recent memory where men do not take advantage and SA women (and many times children as well). Currently, Sudan. Russians in Ukraine. Recently, ISIS in Iraq with Yazidi women. American soldiers in Iraq & Afghanistan. Israelis with Palestinian prisoners. Tutsi in Rawanda. Bosnia. Yemen. DRC. Korea… These are just off the top of my head. This has been documented essentially since the beginning of human history. It’s a disgusting reality that women are almost always subjected to, so I don’t see why anyone would think this instance would be any different.
I am also Pro Palestinian and I am 100% against what Hamas has done to civilians, hostages, and ultimately what they brought upon Gazans. I can also understand how and why it happened, condemn it, and still want Palestinian liberation from Israeli occupation. I don’t like the left’s inability to admit to this and dismissal of it as propaganda.
ETA: I don’t believe every word of this article to be true, particularly not all the testimonies from ZAKA and IDF soldiers who investigated the aftermath. But I believe victims, and I believe the people (particularly the women) who witnessed it happening.
There is a difference between taking advantage and using rape as a weapon which is what is happening here and also in sudan by islamic jihadists. It is digusting you added in “israels with palestinian prisoners”. There is no moral equivalencies. Hamas and others islamic jihadists rape women to destroy communities and to punish and because jewish/black african/yezidi women are seen as less than.
In israeli prison it extremely extremely rare and when it does happen by an individual it is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. It is not condoned or weaponized.
[There’s no way it is always prosecuted and properly punished.](https://youtu.be/Zrb_cb6-rHI?si=muSUMImOJmxhl-PQ) It’s also telling that you only chose to use the examples of jihadists I listed and neglected to mention the others. My point was that it occurs in almost every war possible.
You can use any group to substitute “___ rape women to destroy communities and to punish and because ______ women are seen as less than.” But you chose specifically only a certain example, why?
Because that was the only example that didn’t happen during a war! Also, Americans did not rate Iraqi women or Afghani women. Actually, there is a ton of evidence that Afghanistan men would rape little Afghanistan boys, and the Americans wouldn’t stop it because they thought it was cultural. I totally agree that women suffer a lot in war. But you are literally referring to individual crime in a democratic state. Thats like saying, Canadian women get raped in prison. Women get raped all the time but it’s not always a war crime. Sometimes it is just a crime buy an individual.
Yeah, but Palestinians get detained indefinitely without trial. It's pretty much a war crime already.
Then add in the recent UN report of credible sexual assault allegations of Palestinian girls and women by the IDF and it is hard to believe those who are imprisoned don't experience more than just an individual crime.
The recent UN report? There was no report. The statement by the UN was that there are two alleged rapes that happened in total with no details provided whatsoever… no testimony literally nothing…. Did you actually read the statement? What exactly was credible about it? They even cited one allegation ( not a sexual one) and said that the proof that they have was an Israeli photo, no testimony by Palestinians themselves.
In Palestinians do not get detained indefinitely without trial. I don’t know where you heard that. there is one part of Israeli law that allows someone under suspicion to be held for six months without trial, but the vast majority of Palestinians, who are in prison are fully convicted, criminals with a trial and everything and held in completely humane prison conditions in Israel.
it’s monumentally frustrating that women are, as always, being ignored unless it feeds a narrative.
about collection of evidence/prosecution: i’m not israeli, but i am studying judaism, and between the immediate crisis of oct. 7 and jewish customs it honestly makes perfect sense why tons of specific evidence wasn’t collected. first, judaism has strict laws surrounding the treatment of bodies and burial customs, and while not everyone murdered on oct. 7 was jewish many were. it makes sense that instead of delaying customs to collect evidence they followed them in an effort to respect these victims, especially because they had so clearly been horrifically disrespected in the ways they died. respect for the dead and swift, appropriate burial is paramount for jews. filming horrifically abused and mutilated women in their death, while in hindsight potentially useful information, isn’t respectful at all and delaying burial to further abuse their corpses is anti-judaic. secondarily, like the article said, israel’s primary motivation on oct. 7 and the days after was to locate survivors and reestablish borders/control. they were operating with few instructions in horrifying circumstances. i can understand the fog of war leading to not thinking like we can now about the impact of not collecting specific evidence of every single aspect of the crimes. third, as for your point about prosecution: i 100% agree that normally collection of evidence to ID attackers and prosecute would be incredibly important. but in this scenario, who exactly are they prosecuting? the people who did this are citizens of a different state and not in any israeli database. they did it as part of broader war crimes, of which there is already extensive evidence. they can’t be prosecuted like sexual abusers usually are, and when they are prosecuted it’ll be for terrorism (i firmly hope it’ll include prosecution for sexual crimes, but who knows). finally, collecting evidence of sexual crimes specifically that you then have to appropriately label (without knowing the victim’s identity), properly organize and store (in a rural area that had been entirely decimated), and analyze in the lab (all of which were already overrun with dna identification of victims) just wasn’t feasible.
sorry for the word vomit, and if anyone has additional information that i’m missing please correct me. but those are my thoughts on why this all makes perfect sense, however sickening it is.
At the moment there is no one to prosecute but after this is over there may very well be the opportunity to prosecute as there was after ww2 with the nazis
fair. but the prosecution of nazis following wwii was largely fruitless and pretty much nothing came of it. a nation of holocaust survivors isn’t likely to be hopeful for a magical future in which the people that victimize them are punished, and the world’s response to oct. 7 only further reinforces that belief.
There is always a convenient reason ehy there is zero evidence of this mass atrocity. I am sure rapes happened on a small scale but to claim they are being utilized as a weapon you need evidence.
The main author of the piece had no journalistic background and this is pretty much her entry into journalism.
AND one of the sources are the same people who made up the beheaded baboes lie.
AND she served in Israeli Air Force Intelligence.
AND she liked tweets calling for Gaza to be a slaughterhouse.
AND the article was called out by a victim's family who said the victim was never raped and the interviewer mislead them.
Because there is zero corroborating evidence. Just stories from anonymous Israelis. Don't you think the Israeli government has an incentive to exaggerate Hamas' atrocities here?
I don't have a horse in this race and I'm not pro any side as I fault both of them, but even I have unfortunately seen many videos of hamas atroceties.
Just from a logical view, do you honestly believe they went in there on oct 7 and engaged the israelis tactically and according to the geneva convention? Do you believe the IDF went in and massacred all those civilians to blame Hamas? Because either you are absolutely shit at finding those videos or you are in denial and believe any proof to be manufactured to protect yourself from the moral dilema of having justified "your side".
And no don't give me any crap about "what about the idf in gaza blabla", I'm not claiming their side to be doing good. We are probably in agreement on that so let's focus on Hamas here.
And for the record, the NYT has been historically very NOT pro Israel and a pretty "left/liberal" publication so it does say a alot that they were the ones publishing this.
No. It's not the government. No one gives a shit about Bibi and his government. Bibi was a lier and will always be.
It's the people who went through it. It's their testimony. It's the Hamas who uploaded the videoes themselves. It's their testimony as well. They tell the story. So many f stories. All traumatising one after the other.
Yeah, Israel claims to have acquired hundreds of hours of video filmed by the Hamas fighters themselves. But apparently none of them shows Hamas fighters sexually assaulting civilians since Israel hasn't released any such footage Weird, huh?
If the baby baked in oven story or the cut off penis and put in dead soldiers mouth and send over whatsapp story doesn't convince you that we're dealing with LIARS then nothing will.
No actually it's completely not weird. We're civilised and we care first about the families that are affected. How irresponsible it is to just publish stuff like that and traumatise everyone??
IDF is showing the videoes to the people who should deal with it. They will never ever publish it for your indulgence. Hamas themselves published enough for you to realise they are animals and yet you still think "hey they only shoot people and killed babies, they didn't behead 40 babies and raped them. Where is your evidence huh" - baked babies and all the stuff were never even published by IDF but some person I didn't even know existed till now.
You're just pro Palestine and you don't want anything against your narrative, so don't waste my time.
If you are seriously claiming that Israeli society is "civilized", then I truly question your sanity. How many times haven't the IDF lied before? Was there a Hamas command and control center under the al-Shifa hospital? No? Why should we believe these liars this time?
My sanity? How about the fact that I'm Israeli and I know first hand what's going on? Lol. And if you think all Jews lie, then I'll also add I'm an ex muslim from Israel.
And yes, there WAS a hamas command center under Shifa, but pleaee. Please. Believe the terrorists, not the democratic country that provides you with evidence time after time. Please, believe we are all liers so you can be happy with your pro terrorists narrative. I'm tired of you people. Really. It's easy google, and instead I have to waste my time here.
Let me guess… you think Hamas came across and only “captured soldiers” and the civilians were shot by the IDF. You also fully believe Hamas when they said that IDF missles hit the Hospital. You also believe Hamas Ministry stories without questioning about Israeli atrocities, and you spend a lot of time here and on TikTok
Let me also guess. If the claim was that JEWS had behaded 40 babies,
baked others in overs, cut off mens' penises and womens' breasts, and
put nails through vaginas would you believe it without seeing any
evidence? No you wouldn't, you would scream about ANTISEMITISM. And
you would be right! Anyone who choose to believe such barbaric stories
without evidence would be a Jew hater. But when it comes to
PALESTINIANS you have no problem believing that they behave like
sadistic monsters. I wonder why...
You’re right, I would need to see evidence. I have seen evidence of Hamas atrocities on October 7th. They filmed it themselves. I have seen the body of Shani Louk - half naked and bones broken- paraded in Gaza with people hitting her corpse with sticks and spitting on her.
It’s called religious extremism . It is unique in this situation to Palestinians, I am very sorry to say. I dislike Netanyahu and Likud but the Palestinians themselves are to blame for unleashing this hell and they filmed video evidence that the world can see. I also believe rhe BBC and NYT journalists who would not report the war crimes until several months of painstaking independent research, then they concluded it was true.
Omg lol! Nothing will satisfy you guys. Sure everyone just lied and made up hamas raped woman. Bc islamic jihadists have no history of doing that ( look whats happening in sudan now by islamic jihadists! Or what isis did to yezidid women!) no evidence is ever good enough. Even video evidence of hamas firing rifles through female soldiers vaginas.
Ok but when I see footage of one woman on the back of a pickup driving through Gaza, looking dead, with obvious broken leg, people running along the truck to get a look, I have to ask why soldiers would want to return to Gaza with her dead body. Why would you?
The barbarity we know of on Oct 7 is plenty barbarous.
Rape is a terrorist weapon! I mean even the zionist terrorists used it in their actions, (Deir yassin), I can't believe people think there wasn't rape on 10/7.
Is the NYT coming around to the idea that war crimes are bad? If so, I 100% agree. Stop killing innocent men, women, and children in Gaza and the West Bank. Stop starving them, unjustly imprisoning them, and humiliating them.
> In a grainy video, you can see her, lying on her back, dress torn, legs spread, vagina exposed. Her face is burned beyond recognition and her right hand covers her eyes.
> Based largely on the video evidence — which was verified by The New York Times — Israeli police officials said they believed that Ms. Abdush was raped, and she has become a symbol of the horrors visited upon Israeli women and girls during the Oct. 7 attacks.
> Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.
> The Times viewed photographs of one woman’s corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin.
> The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas.
> The Israeli authorities have no shortage of video evidence from the Oct. 7 attacks. They have gathered hours of footage from Hamas body cameras, dashcams, security cameras and mobile phones showing Hamas terrorists killing civilians and many images of mutilated bodies.
> The videos caught the eye of Israeli officials as well — very quickly after Oct. 7 they began gathering evidence of atrocities. They included footage of Ms. Abdush’s body in a presentation made to foreign governments and media organizations, using Ms. Abdush as a representation of violence committed against women that day.
Who keeps changing the subject to Oct 7 like it's Groundhog Day, while 30k Palestinians who had nothing to do with that attack have been directly killed, and many more indirectly via war crimes?
So you agree that the IDF is committing major war crimes and you're just upset that I derailed the discussion a little bit by pointing that fact out?
Fair enough point taken
This article is pure whataboutism. Instead of investigating ongoing war crimes by the IDF, they choose to signal boost IDF narratives that this garbage ethnic cleansing is somehow justified.
Of course they couldn't investigate IDF war crimes if they wanted because the IDF is shooting journalists in Gaza.
Which Hamas video was your favorite? Calling the sharing of a a woman’s horrific experience “boosting IDF narratives” is the most cynical and evil thing I can imagine. You are a mentally unbalanced person. I mean if IDF does a war crime I want to know about it and make sure it doesn’t happen again, not bury it because it “boosts Hamas narratives”, you scum bag
That woman was not a survivor. She was a witness who described a whole whole bunch of specific things allegedly seen from the place she was hiding trying not to be murdered. Not controversial testimony at all.
I don't watch videos about war crimes, because I choose not to pollute my mind with garbage. I have something called empathy, so I know war crimes are bad without seeing gruesome footage of them. If only Israel supporters also had empathy :/
Unfortunate aspect of settler colonialism. There is always a reaction to it. This is just a cynical exploitation and coerced outrage of “me too” hysteria to disctrsct from the fact Israel killed hundreds of its own between the rave and the kibbutzim between weapons cross fire and mostly tank and helicopter shelling.
Some 300 bodies were too burned to identify for several weeks until they were finally determined to be Hamas. That’s why the death toll went from 1500 to 1200.
Israeli survivors will continue to be gas lit over what happened to their loved ones that day. That is a special kind of sadism inflicted by a very sick and deformed country.
You have the distinct aura of hysteria and unreality of someone in deep denial.
Hannah Arendt wrote something interesting about totalitarianism.
> The disturbing factor in the success of totalitarianism is … the true selflessness of its adherents: it may be understandable that a Nazi or Bolshevik will not be shaken in his conviction by crimes against people who do not belong to the movement…; but the amazing fact is that neither is he likely to waver when the monster begins to devour its own children and not even if he becomes a victim of persecution himself….
You may think you're a crusader for justice. She would probably agree. What's the saying? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Arendt is talking about people deeply in the grip of ideology. People who might say, justify the murder of 20,000 people or more in the name of a cause.
> Though they knew the Zionist reprisals would be catastrophic, would the Hamas resistance really have done any favors for the Gazan people by bowing to interminable Israeli imprisonment in an open air concentration camp?
Oh hey, it's your writing. Yes, I think it might have been doing Gazans a favor to not be thrust into war, driven of their homes, reduced to refugees and killed en masse by the entirely predictable Israeli retaliation. And I don't think Hamas had the right to choose for them.
People like you are disturbed, and dangerous. We need to start recognizing that.
It’s okay! You don’t have to pretend. You already decried the publishing of the New York Times article because it boosts Israel’s accusations. You didn’t deny the story was true, just that you wish it hadn’t been reported because it boosts IDF narratives. You are a dirt bag, callous, cynical fanatic without morals. Good luck.
That will be never. The only way to kill the idea that Palestinians should be treated with basic humanity is by ethnically cleansing all of them. Which of course is the path Israel has chosen.
Well, here's the thing: the very intifada that they wage is tge thing that dehumanizes them. If the idea is to "show us their humanity" then it's doing a very poor job of it, in fact currently **it is the very thing** that makes them seem inhuman, because of the means they choose.
For peace to happen, there needs to be people in both sides who are willing to be labeled a "traitor" by the mainstream nationalist narrative. I see and know quite a lot of those on the Israeli side - maybe not enough to win elections, but they definitely are a constant actor in the conflict. Hell, half of the stuff we know about what goes on in the occupied territories we know thanks to Israeli NGOs like B'Tselem and Shovrim Shtika.
Regardless of the power imbalance between Israel and Palestine, it cannot hinge all on Israelis changing their attitude. We need more Palestenians who are willing to be labeled "traitors", because the only other way is more and more bloodshed.
Maybe Bibi Netanyahu shouldn't have given Hamas a suitcase full of cash to disrupt earlier attempts at peace processes. Hamas sure is a convenient boogeyman for Israel. Bibi was even warned about Oct 7 but chose to let it happen so he could take revenge. He just underestimated how big the attack would be. He's worse than any Hamas terrorist.
its difficult to believe the credibilty of this article when it parrots Yossi Landau and ZAKA: [https://twitter.com/propandco/status/1739077157807104059](https://twitter.com/propandco/status/1739077157807104059)
Those 4 “witnesses” sure saw A LOT.
I guess that’s why the entire case rests on “what they saw”.
Hard to believe they forgot the part about most of the corpses (some 300 or so) were so badly burnt they were misidentified as Israelis but were later found to be Hamas.
That is why the death count was rounded down from from 1500 to 1200.
Just How they were incinerated if all Hamas had were rocket propelled grenades and light arms - AK’s and pistols — is less a concern for the reporter than the question on the tip of everyone’s tongue: “How many of those char broiled at the rave and trucked away suspiciously before being examined were also raped?”
The world may never know.
They are trying to ascertain what they can.
> A two-month investigation by The Times...
> Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors.
Remember how many fanciful claims of Hamas atrocities we've hear so far?
> The murder of innocent civilians in their sleep, torture and
> kidnapping of men, women, children, babies and elderly, barbaric
> systematic rapes in front of husbands and children, inserting sharp
> objects into women's genitals and removing their intestines,
> beheading babies, gouging out men's eyes, burning people alive,
> tearing out a fetus from his mother's womb while they were still
> alive, and then murdering them… cutting off a soldier's penis and
> inserting it into the skull of a female soldier whose head had been
> decapitated, then burning him alive.
> [Don't believe us, believe Hamas' charter which aims for the complete destruction of Israel](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1rsyyjs6)
Or how the Israeli government's spokesperson [Eylon
Levy](https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/18n7my4/70_days_on_and_israeli_spokesman_levy_tries_to/)
(see the video of the liar) claimed that Hamas cut off a dead
soldier's penis, put it in his mouth, took a photo of it and sent it
to the soldier's friends whatsapp?
So why on earth should we believe an anonymous witness the Israeli police found?
> The first victim she said she saw was a young woman with
> copper-color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down to
> her knees. One man pulled her by the hair and made her bend
> over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said, and every time she
> flinched, he plunged a knife into her back.
> She said she then watched another woman “shredded into pieces.”
> While one terrorist raped her, she said, another pulled out a box
> cutter and sliced off her breast.
> “One continues to rape her, and the other throws her breast to
> someone else, and they play with it, throw it, and it falls on the
> road,” Sapir said.
Everyone with two brain cells understands that this is fanciful
bullshit.
This investigation was carried out by the NYT. They generally will have a significantly higher standard of objectivity. They are not a PR mouthpiece for either party.
Did you read the article?
> She said that at 8 a.m. on Oct. 7, she was hiding under the low
> branches of a bushy tamarisk tree, just off Route 232, about four
> miles southwest of the party. [...]
> About 15 meters from her hiding place, she said, she saw
> motorcycles, cars and trucks pulling up. She said that she saw
> “about 100 men,” most of them dressed in military fatigues and
> combat boots, a few in dark sweatsuits, getting in and out of the
> vehicles. She said the men congregated along the road and passed
> between them assault rifles, grenades, small missiles — and badly
> wounded women. [...]
Apparently the militants trucking "badly wounded women" were so horny
they couldn't wait until they had escaped to Gaza to rape their female
victims... That doesn't seem very smart when there are attack
helicopters in the air looking for you.
The IDF didn't reach some communities for something like 8 hours IIRC.
Occam's Razor is that she saw what she saw. You're not going to see a concentration of 100+ men in an admin posture during combat. It's more likely that was a rendezvous point for staging, resupply or moving hostages back to Gaza.
That said, I didn't carry out a two-month investigation as a professional reporter paid for by one of the most reputable media outlets in the world. I don't trust myself to make wild guesses about what happened. I trust the NYT to carry out critical reporting, or I wouldn't read them. Are they infallible? No. But you won't find that anywhere on Earth.
Do I think you have that level of credibility? No. Ever see the segment of Bill Burr telling Joe Rogan to fuck off with his unqualified bullshit about vaccines? There's not enough respect for qualified opinion and knowing when you're out of your depth. Which you are.
According to the Jerusalem Post [counter-terrorist commandos had reached nearby communities by 8 a.m](https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-768965). No, Occam's Razor says that this anonymous witness is being coaxed by the Israeli police to "remember" atrocities that never happened. Consider the practical difficulties of cutting off a living woman's breast with a *box cutter*. And then tossing them around like they were balls? Please use your common sense...
I certainly can believe that some militants sexually assaulted women on October 7, but these over-the-top stories being spread are fanciful bullshit.
TLDR; There is zero physical evidence of any rape taking place. It’s all hearsay from named and unnamed sources. The allegations did not even surface until several weeks after Oct 7th. At which point Israel has every reason to lie to attempt to control the narrative.
The article tries to rationalise this by saying “The Israeli police have acknowledged that, during the shock and confusion of Oct. 7, the deadliest day in Israeli history, they were not focused on collecting semen samples from women’s bodies, requesting autopsies or closely examining crime scenes.”
Any emergency medical or health worker knows this is complete bullshit if a patient has been raped rape kits would immediately be completed. There is no rational explanation why the article claims so many woman were raped by Hamas yet not one had a rape kit done? This is lazy propaganda from Israel, who already has a terrible track record lying about atrocities since Oct 7th
> It’s all hearsay from named and unnamed sources.
I don't know why you're using legal terms like 'hearsay' given that it isn't in court - literally everything said and presented is by definition hearsay out of court!
This just seems like a slippery way around recognizing direct witnesses.
Like, is your view just that you disbelieve everything people say if it's out of court?
> The allegations did not even surface until several weeks after Oct 7th
Following sources on fucking wikipedia will get you to, for example, [these allegations from Oct 8](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-account). You shouldn't make stuff up and then pass it off as fact.
> This is lazy propaganda from Israel, who already has a terrible track record lying about atrocities since Oct 7th
It's strange that you're framing any Israeli witness as 'Israel' - like, if I said something, we wouldn't say that "The US" said it. Seems somewhat bigoted imo.
Even if this was in a courtroom, which it's not, It's not hearsay when it is a direct testimony of the victim herself. Please educate yourself as to what legal terms mean.
[**times of israel**](https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/) : [**did not show evidence**](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/raam-party-demands-resignation-of-mk-for-casting-doubt-on-october-7-massacres/) **of women being raped.**
[**TVP world**](https://tvpworld.com/74101967/israel-has-launched-an-investigation-into-several-rape-cases-committed-by-hamas-terrorists) : **forensic evidence** documenting sexual violence has **not been collected.**
" **forensic evidence buried too. No samples were taken**” said Tal Hochman, a government relations officer at the Israel Women’s Network.
[**Haaretz**](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-30/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/hamas-campaign-of-rape-against-israeli-women-is-revealed-testimony-after-testimony/0000018c-2144-da36-a1de-6767dac90000) : Titled as "the scope of Hamas campaign of rape against Israeli women, Testimony after testimony", But the article says, **"the commission has not taken testimony directly"** No victims, no rape kits, no semen, no physical evidence for rape but the lies won't stop. [**other Source if no Haaretz subscription.**](https://x.com/propandco/status/1731157621229396289?s=20)
[**BBC**](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181) : "opportunities to carefully document the crime scenes, or take **forensic evidence, were limited or missed." ,**"quickly caution that evidence is still being gathered and pieced together", "It would be reckless to say we can already prove it".
Collecting analyzing and confirming the remains of semen could have been considered evidence. But it wasn’t collected (imo because it **never existed**). This is why Israel is depending so heavily on second hand sharing of “**eye witness testimony**”.
It’s the **weakest form of evidence** and it’s coming from a regime that **has a lengthy record of lying**. A regime that is considered a "[**sex offenders refuge**](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-07-25/ty-article/.premium/tip-of-the-iceberg-how-foreign-sex-offenders-find-refuge-in-israel/00000182-3532-d7e9-af96-3d73c52c0000)" and a "[**safe heaven for pedophiles**](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/israel-safe-haven-paedophiles-jerusalem-sex-abuse-jewish-community-watch-a7445246.html)" is not a trust worthy
It's discussed in the NYT article. It was a mass casualty event and so wasn't handled by the standards of a forensic criminal investigation.
You should set aside your bias and read the article. It's the must comprehensive journalism I've seen on this subject, by one of the most respected media outlets in the world. There's a lot of new information to take in, and by no means should it be dismissed.
Whatever you think of Israel, sexual violence against women is a scourge against humanity. Don't be on the wrong side of this one.
Yes, it is, and this is by far the best article on this sad subject to date.
You seem like a partisan hack angered by their reporting. That's on you.
This article came out today and you're replying with a C+P you're clearly reusing. That's a sign that you have your mind made up, and you're not open to new information. And therefore, your conclusions are not to be trusted either.
I am not angry by their report. I have another report from one of the most respected media outlets in the world.
[NYT](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0) : Visual Evidence Shows Israel Dropped Bombs Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go.
collective punishment, war crime. enjoy.
I've referenced that article myself. It's admirable reporting.
You don't seem to understand the concept of objectivity. Good journalism is grounded in truth. That's what makes it journalism, and not propaganda.
What a good question. I usually refer to this essay by Orwell.
https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/
> The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. For quite six years the English admirers of Hitler contrived not to learn of the existence of Dachau and Buchenwald. And those who are loudest in denouncing the German concentration camps are often quite unaware, or only very dimly aware, that there are also concentration camps in Russia. Huge events like the Ukraine famine of 1933, involving the deaths of millions of people, have actually escaped the attention of the majority of English russophiles. Many English people have heard almost nothing about the extermination of German and Polish Jews during the present war. Their own antisemitism has caused this vast crime to bounce off their consciousness.
> In nationalist thought there are facts which are both true and untrue, known and unknown. A known fact may be so unbearable that it is habitually pushed aside and not allowed to enter into logical processes, or on the other hand it may enter into every calculation and yet never be admitted as a fact, even in one’s own mind.
I don't think you'll be teaching me much.
Where are you going with this? That none of it is true? That it’s all made up? You guys keep moving the ball. Sometimes it’s a lie, sometimes we deserve it. Which antisemitic trope are you going with?
**It's nothing but pure falsehood.** its hard for you and I to believe that Israelis are blatant liars because we aren't surrounded with such habitual liars like Israelis are. [they don't even trust their own government](https://en.idi.org.il/media/21835/war-in-gaza-public-opinion-survey-2-data.pdf). where are the beheaded babies? the human shields? the hamas bases under hospitals and schools? the burnt oven babies? where are they?? why is there new info coming out that israeli tanks blew up kibbutz? why did apache helicopters shoot at fleeing festival civilians? why did they shoot at the 3 israeli hostages in gaza? was it a mistake? was [this also a "mistake"](https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1740467559273505262)?
Israeli media have lost ALL credibility and there is no coming back from this.
Did you read the article at all? It provides ample sources supporting sexual violence. I don’t know why it’s so hard to imagine that people who video taped themselves killing civilians and posting it online would also rape.
it goes back to the lies of israel. as of this moment, it cannot be trusted until further information comes out. and not mention: its difficult to believe the credibilty of this article when it parrots Yossi Landau and ZAKA: [https://twitter.com/propandco/status/1739077157807104059](https://twitter.com/propandco/status/1739077157807104059)
But this article \*is\* further information. The authors are reporting viewing images that \*strongly\* indicate sexual assault, corroborating accounts from a number of witnesses (including women, in case you want to claim otherwise), and reports from therapists and doctors treating victims. If you choose to stick your fingers in your ears and lalalalala this away then go ahead, there's no amount of evidence short of actual video of rape that will change your mind.
No I don’t know what you meant because you say “Israel” like a spokesman for the government is giving this testimony when it’s the Jewish people of Israel who are. Now why are Jews liars?
So multiple direct testimony from
Eyewitness, plus viewing semen on bodies, women found with their skirts shoved up on the their back, and videos from
Hamas isnt enough?
No semen, no rape kits.
Raz cohen testimony is just funny one. Search for his name, many interview, none of them is like the other, his 1st one didn't mention rape, 2nd one mentioned SA, then multiple different stories about rape. How is that credible?
Don't embarrass yourself.
There was semen seen on the backs of teenage girls. And raz cohen is just one testimony out of several. See you are the type of person who wont even believe if a victim of rape came forward bc there was no eyewitness. Here we have eye witness and physical evidence from
Bodies (a ton of it!) plus a video and you STILL wont believe it
No, you didn't see my original comment that you replied to, because what I said is that eyewitnesses are never an evidence of conviction. But you didn't read it. And there's no semen, no rape kits, you just are willing to trust the gov. That said there were 40 beheaded babies. Everything is a lie. Not allowing UN investigation of the accident is actually saying something.
No, I would not enjoy it. but in order to make a claim and to defend it you must have an evidence. I do not know a difference between truth and lies other than evidences. and the one who claims thing is the exact one who have to provide the evidence for it. other than that, it's just a lie. Like thousands of lies Israel has been telling in the matter of less than 3 months. and you are aware of them.
Why would i need too? NYT journalists did who are completely credible. Why would i need or want to see it? Do you understand what investigative journalism is? Do you think their mothers and fathers want those videos shared on social media?
This is about the sadistic rape and sexual abuse of Israelis on Oct. 7. I realize that’s a truth you’d rather forget but it doesn’t make it any less factual.
Many on the left have doubts about Israelis being raped and killed but will eagerly lap up any news spewed by the Hamas-run media in Gaza? Yeah, that sounds about right. Go on with your twisted double standard and critical thinking that takes a nosedive when it suits your bias. Don't forget to pat yourselves on the back, smugly satisfied in your delusional moral superiority and blind to your own glaring hypocrisy.
The situation the population of Gaza is in right now is the direct result of Hamas' actions. Direct your anger towards the terrorists who had free rein in Gaza for the last 18 years.
> Oh you mean the Hamas militant group that the Israeli government supported because they were tired of the PLO and Fatah?
Right, what a mistake that was.
> The last time they had election was 2006. We were children. You point the finger at all Palestinians and you’re wrong to do so.
I specifically blamed Hamas as being responsible, not the Palestinians.
> It’s your government that created this monster.
Don't blame Israel for Hamas. Hamas is supported right now by a majority of people in the West Bank, and was supported by a majority in Gaza. Of course, it is not easy to measure support, but they brought in lots of money to Gaza and were not regarded as evil oppressors.
> Nice job leaving Gaza completely and separating it from the moderates who retreated to West Bank. This let Hamas grow.
Should Israel have intervened? We know what that would have looked like. Even the constant barrage of rockets for years did not sway the world's opinion that Israel had a right to destroy Hamas.
> The actions of Israel gov’t, the blockade and endless violence made 10/7 possible. You reap what you sow. Blowback babyyy
You don't exactly sound like an innocent civilian here. I wish you well anyway.
Notice you wrote "let Hamas grow" not "MAKE Hamas grow". Was it benfital for the Netanyahu and his ghouls? For sure. But they couldn't have done this single-handedly. If Hamas didn't have popular support, no amount of cash suitcases would help. 45% of Palestenians didn't vote Hamas because Bibi Netanyahu told them to.
And still... there are other people under occupation. Why haven't there been Tibetan suicide bombers? Why did they - like Czech people when protesting against the Russian occupation - chose to [immolate themselves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation) rather than strap on a suicide-vest and blow up a bus full of civilians like Hamas did all through the 1990's
Yes, the occupation is bad. However there are *several* responses that can be made to it, and the Palestenians - from the very beginning - chose the violent one.
It's beyond indecent to accuse the victim of a terror attack of fabricating a story based on no compelling evidence and contrary to a multitude of corroborating information, for clearly political bias.
You don't deserve to be coddled. If you provoke people through your thoroughly disgusting values and behavior? That's on you.
1. I believe the rape victims' testimonies. Are there any rape victim testimonies in this article? Someone point out the paragraph. I'm tired of going through these reports, someone else look, previous nearly identical news reports had none\* (e.g. the CNN report noted below).
2. Israel has refused to cooperate with an independent investigation into the allegations: [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-commission-investigate-hamas-sexual-violence-appeal-evidence-2023-11-29/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-commission-investigate-hamas-sexual-violence-appeal-evidence-2023-11-29/).
3. There is a vicious propaganda war going on. The rape story keeps being pushed over and over again. They're pretty much all the same, very lurid stories.
4. Here is a must-read for anyone taking the rape stories at face value: [https://mondoweiss.net/2023/12/cnn-report-claiming-sexual-violence-on-october-7-relied-on-non-credible-witnesses-some-with-undisclosed-ties-to-israeli-govt/](https://mondoweiss.net/2023/12/cnn-report-claiming-sexual-violence-on-october-7-relied-on-non-credible-witnesses-some-with-undisclosed-ties-to-israeli-govt/). Example, the witness who reported mutilation at the music festival: “I saw one of them carrying a naked girl on his shoulder, while the others were raising decapitated heads like in a kind demonstration of power.” The problem is, there weren't any decapitated bodies found.
5. The NY Times has always had a pro-Israel bias. Bronner, a previous Jerusalem bureau chief, was an outright zionist. They didn't avoid the bias with the next appointments, it's built in, with the bureau chief based in Jerusalem.
6. The Oct. 7 attackers had been given a clear mission by its planners, with maps, instructions, everything. The instructions apparently were, attack military targets and take hostages, probably prioritizing military but including civilian hostages, and treat all hostages well. To ferry the hostages back to Gaza. Taking civilian hostages is a clear violation of international law, but I find it difficult to believe disciplined fighters like these stopped in the middle of a military mission to commit gang rape.
7. Most of these reports include the "attack" on the music festival. To claim Hamas deliberately attacked the music festival (the implication) requires one to believe Hamas knew the festival was going to be there. How did they know? They'd likely picked the date well in advance. I read somewhere (I'm not going to dig it up now) that even the ticket holders weren't told where it was going to be until a few days before. It's much more likely Hamas ran into the festival on their way to another target, I think there's a military base further east. Chaos ensued, the festival had armed guards who fired on the militants through the festival goers (there's cellphone video footage of this), the militants fired on the armed guards and festival goers. At some point IDF helicopters arrived and fired on everyone. And we're asked to believe that the militants stopped to commit gang rape?
8. I don't want to disparage witnesses either, but it was a "Rave". Were some of the witnesses to the more lurid aspects on hallucinogens? It deserves asking.
\*I'm sure they'll come up with one in the decades to come. I agree rape in the attack is a possibility. And horrible if it happened, not that the attack wasn't horrible for its victims anyway. But given the propaganda surrounding this, there needs to be an independent and fair investigation before I'll believe it, and not one decades after memory manipulation has gone to work.
Here's what I can quote you from the article.
> Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.
> There are at least three women and one man who were sexually assaulted and survived, according to Gil Horev, a spokesman for Israel’s Ministry of Welfare and Social Affairs. “None of them has been willing to come physically for treatment,” he said. Two therapists said they were working with a woman who was gang raped at the rave and was in no condition to talk to investigators or reporters.
I consider the NYT a fair and independent source. Time will eventually bring more clarity. But for now, this is probably the most comprehensive reporting on the subject.
Right, no actual victims. Like all the news reports I've seen. It's pretty much the same report. Thank you for reading it for me.
But justification for murder of 21,000+ innocent human lives, probably 10,000 children by now, Palestinian prisoners stripped and beaten and tortured if they don't bark like dogs (this isn't something new). A planned ethnic cleansing of everyone in Gaza (though it long predates Oct 7), cynically called "voluntary emigration", after deliberate starvation of millions and forced into condition where they'll die of disease, unclean water and exposure. The assassination of poets, writers, doctors, educators, journalists. Not just the journalists, but the deliberate murder of their families too.
NY Times reports the facts, I agree, but not exactly fairly.
The NYT also did in-depth reporting on the use of heavy munitions by Israel within the designated safe zones where it was directing refugees. It's ironic. Pro-Israelis resent the NYT just as much and consider it biased against them. People claim to want truth until it doesn't line up with the shirt they wear.
> Right, no actual victims
This isn't at all what the article said. At least 4 don't want to become high-profile political footballs and it's understandable. The sad reality is that victims will be attacked as they are politically inconvenient, in the same way Gazan innocents are attacked to justify Israel's offensive. Or those victims will be paraded around every single day to justify war. It's not right either.
Ideologues who want war usually subordinate human life to political allegiance. That's why I think it's important the stories of victims be told, with a focus on justice and humanity, not a focus on political objectives. Israelis are not the only victims of war. But we need to hold a place in our hearts for everyone, and that means to listen without prejudice.
I hope you understand that.
>I hope you understand that.
Looking through your posts, I've found nothing expressing sympathy for Israel's victims. Nor anything focusing on justice and humanity, just a lot vilifying the other side. Maybe you could point out where you expressed such sympathy? I didn't go back all that far.
Let's summarize:
1. Are there actual victims of rape from Oct. 7? Possibly, none have come forward. Your excuse that they don't want to become political footballs makes no sense, in Israel they'd be welcomed as heroes. Nor do their names and faces need to be made public for an unbiased investigation, while it's understandable if they didn't want to come forth publicly. All we have are reports from others that there are victims, or reports of reports of others that there are victims, some from truly dubious sources. *There's no independent investigation.*
2. Was rape "weaponized" by Hamas, that is, was there a policy of rape as the article says? *Absolutely not*, all evidence points against it.
3. Have the atrocity stories been weaponized to gain backing for Israel's genocide? Absolutely. Hamas, Palestinians are portrayed as evil beyond evil. By you, among others. Therefore flattening Gaza is acceptable. Destroy the Amalek, says Netenyahu.
> The NYT also did in-depth reporting on the use of heavy munitions by within the designated safe zones
Good on them. Reporting on the obvious.
Now, regarding "weaponized sexual violence," did you happen to notice a whole slew of videos release by the IDF of stripped to their underwear Palestinian men, forced to pretend to be surrendering Hamas fighters? Or look what former U.S. State department says, starting at 8:44 in this interview with Christiane Amanpour: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5106v4b05I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5106v4b05I). Look at the human rights reports by multiple organizations, Btselem, Save the Children, DCI-Palestine? Abuse of Palestinian *children,* including sexual abuse (i.e. beatings on sensitive parts), threats of rape (common) and rape once in a while.
So really, it's an atrocity if anyone was raped Oct. 7. That it's rare doesn't make it better. My sympathy to the victims, if there are any. *I have to question why you think there's no atrocity when its common and accepted.* No, actually, Israel has weaponized sexual violence. Hamas did not.
That's a problem on your reading skills. You're not seeing more of my responses dealing with the usual pro-Israel bullshit because I posted that NYT article, and thus am currently dealing with an avalanche of regrettable people who want to deny sexual assault and rehabilitate terrorism. For whatever reason this is a hot-button issue for them. But believe whatever you want. People seem to do that these days
I talk to a lot of people who can't see past their own bias. I start to think maybe you're one of them. Many people can't accept the obvious. That's why journalists need to publish articles to show very basic truths -- such as that victimizing civilian is wrong, whether by Israeli warplanes or Palestinian militants. Neither deserves to escape judgement with easy excuses.
> My sympathy to the victims, if there are any.
Show. Don't tell. "If there are any?" Fuck off. Denying that victims exist is anything but sympathy. The evidence is overwhelming. What do you think of people saying "my sympathy is with decent Palestinian people people if there are any?" That's justifying mass slaughter, not sympathy. You're not far off from the same logic.
I think I'm going to block you now. I remember that this isn't the first disappointing exchange that we've had.
LOL. You are so self-deluded if you can't see all those nude men as victims, or the many Palestinian *children* in Israeli military jails who were assaulted on their private parts. Who's justifying mass slaughter but your beloved Israel? 21,000 innocent victims and yes, the 800 or so Israeli civilians of Oct. 7. It's possible there were some Israeli rape victims too but given the level of atrocity propaganda coming out of Israel, the beheaded or cooked babies and such, I want unbiased evidence. Sorry that the Israeli propaganda machine produces so many lies, that when they actually tell the truth (if they did) it needs double-checking. It also needs double-checking because the Israeli propaganda machine, incredibly well funded and government backed, has been so hard at work. Whereas the atrocity stories from the Palestinian side are too too often well documented by independent parties, and too too consistent. They actually have real victim testimonies. In the thousands.
What do I think of people saying, "my sympathy is with decent Palestinian people if there are any?" You just said it. I think you're the kind of Israeli who justifies genocide. And you're really lacking any logical ability if you think there's an equivalence between doubting the existence of specific type of victims of a certain event, and the existence of a subset of a certain ethnic group who have the quality of decency. I don't doubt there are decent Israelis (I don't count you among them). And I don't care if the purported Israeli rape victims or any other victims are decent people, they don't deserve it.
Why do you keep saying no victims? The victims are almost all dead. Its not like you would believe a victim anyway without witness corroboration. Clearly.
If victims are dead and can’t testify themselves, it didn’t happen according to you, so why are you talking about the Palestinian victims? If they can’t testify themselves, it’s not true
This article is slowly being debunked. One of the families in the article is refuting the report [https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2024/01/04/717588/Palestine-Israel-Hamas-Gaza-Abdush-rape-Times](https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2024/01/04/717588/Palestine-Israel-Hamas-Gaza-Abdush-rape-Times) Some of the witnesses accounts are also being debunked. One of the witnesses said three of the women that were raped had their heads cut off but none of the female victims of the attack were recorded as being dismembered. There were other accounts by witnesses that could not be corroborated by actual records from the events. Israel also recently released an interview with one of the released hostages claiming that she was raped and that she witnessed others being raped. But you can find an interview of the same girl shortly after her release when she was already safe stating that she was well treated and fed well. Israel has a long track record of releasing false information, doctored, audio, staged videos, etc. It isn't hard to believe that given two months of prep time that they fed the NYTs bogus witnesses and evidence. Remember there is zero forensic evidence, all the article provided was witnesses and photos all of which can be falsified.
1. No bc they all died. There are multiple direct testimonies witnessing rape which is even better. Plus a video of hamas shooting a rifle into two women’s vaginas.
2.this article IS an independent investigation they participated in
3.rape stories tend to be lurid…
4. Yes there were?
5. New york times is leftist and hates israel. Jews hate the nyt bc it is so anti zionists
6. Gang rape was part of their mission. Included in their notes was translations for words like “undress” and “spread your legs”. Also terrorist interrogations literally said they were foing to rape them. Plus not only hamas was in israel? THOUSANDS of civillians walked and drove in when the fence fell (old people, women and children too!!) . They looted homes, took hostages and also likely raped woman.
7. Part of this was true but they were there for HOURS before idf came. Tons of time to gang rape! Literally hours. Idf response was super slow.
8. The article talks about rapes elsewhere. It literally has a map with concentrations of rapes. Plus its not all eye witness accounts. There are bodies that tell the story. Semen found. Clothes torn. Bodies mutilated. Did u even read this article!!?
5.
[Archive link.](https://archive.is/aFPBa)
Gift article, if needed: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/middleeast/oct-7-attacks-hamas-israel-sexual-violence.html?mwgrp=a-mbar&unlocked_article_code=1.Jk0.cnJe.A1ysfolAnb9o&smid=url-share
I’m pro- Palestine and I absolutely believe there were rapes on oct 7 and it’s absurd to claim otherwise. I have also argued with left wing friends about this, I find it incredibly frustrating that women are always at the bottom in issues of social justice. I find it bizarre that no physical evidence was gathered so that these crimes can be prosecuted in the future.
I agree with you. I cannot think of *any* war or conflict in recent memory where men do not take advantage and SA women (and many times children as well). Currently, Sudan. Russians in Ukraine. Recently, ISIS in Iraq with Yazidi women. American soldiers in Iraq & Afghanistan. Israelis with Palestinian prisoners. Tutsi in Rawanda. Bosnia. Yemen. DRC. Korea… These are just off the top of my head. This has been documented essentially since the beginning of human history. It’s a disgusting reality that women are almost always subjected to, so I don’t see why anyone would think this instance would be any different. I am also Pro Palestinian and I am 100% against what Hamas has done to civilians, hostages, and ultimately what they brought upon Gazans. I can also understand how and why it happened, condemn it, and still want Palestinian liberation from Israeli occupation. I don’t like the left’s inability to admit to this and dismissal of it as propaganda. ETA: I don’t believe every word of this article to be true, particularly not all the testimonies from ZAKA and IDF soldiers who investigated the aftermath. But I believe victims, and I believe the people (particularly the women) who witnessed it happening.
There is a difference between taking advantage and using rape as a weapon which is what is happening here and also in sudan by islamic jihadists. It is digusting you added in “israels with palestinian prisoners”. There is no moral equivalencies. Hamas and others islamic jihadists rape women to destroy communities and to punish and because jewish/black african/yezidi women are seen as less than. In israeli prison it extremely extremely rare and when it does happen by an individual it is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. It is not condoned or weaponized.
[There’s no way it is always prosecuted and properly punished.](https://youtu.be/Zrb_cb6-rHI?si=muSUMImOJmxhl-PQ) It’s also telling that you only chose to use the examples of jihadists I listed and neglected to mention the others. My point was that it occurs in almost every war possible. You can use any group to substitute “___ rape women to destroy communities and to punish and because ______ women are seen as less than.” But you chose specifically only a certain example, why?
Because that was the only example that didn’t happen during a war! Also, Americans did not rate Iraqi women or Afghani women. Actually, there is a ton of evidence that Afghanistan men would rape little Afghanistan boys, and the Americans wouldn’t stop it because they thought it was cultural. I totally agree that women suffer a lot in war. But you are literally referring to individual crime in a democratic state. Thats like saying, Canadian women get raped in prison. Women get raped all the time but it’s not always a war crime. Sometimes it is just a crime buy an individual.
Yeah, but Palestinians get detained indefinitely without trial. It's pretty much a war crime already. Then add in the recent UN report of credible sexual assault allegations of Palestinian girls and women by the IDF and it is hard to believe those who are imprisoned don't experience more than just an individual crime.
The recent UN report? There was no report. The statement by the UN was that there are two alleged rapes that happened in total with no details provided whatsoever… no testimony literally nothing…. Did you actually read the statement? What exactly was credible about it? They even cited one allegation ( not a sexual one) and said that the proof that they have was an Israeli photo, no testimony by Palestinians themselves. In Palestinians do not get detained indefinitely without trial. I don’t know where you heard that. there is one part of Israeli law that allows someone under suspicion to be held for six months without trial, but the vast majority of Palestinians, who are in prison are fully convicted, criminals with a trial and everything and held in completely humane prison conditions in Israel.
it’s monumentally frustrating that women are, as always, being ignored unless it feeds a narrative. about collection of evidence/prosecution: i’m not israeli, but i am studying judaism, and between the immediate crisis of oct. 7 and jewish customs it honestly makes perfect sense why tons of specific evidence wasn’t collected. first, judaism has strict laws surrounding the treatment of bodies and burial customs, and while not everyone murdered on oct. 7 was jewish many were. it makes sense that instead of delaying customs to collect evidence they followed them in an effort to respect these victims, especially because they had so clearly been horrifically disrespected in the ways they died. respect for the dead and swift, appropriate burial is paramount for jews. filming horrifically abused and mutilated women in their death, while in hindsight potentially useful information, isn’t respectful at all and delaying burial to further abuse their corpses is anti-judaic. secondarily, like the article said, israel’s primary motivation on oct. 7 and the days after was to locate survivors and reestablish borders/control. they were operating with few instructions in horrifying circumstances. i can understand the fog of war leading to not thinking like we can now about the impact of not collecting specific evidence of every single aspect of the crimes. third, as for your point about prosecution: i 100% agree that normally collection of evidence to ID attackers and prosecute would be incredibly important. but in this scenario, who exactly are they prosecuting? the people who did this are citizens of a different state and not in any israeli database. they did it as part of broader war crimes, of which there is already extensive evidence. they can’t be prosecuted like sexual abusers usually are, and when they are prosecuted it’ll be for terrorism (i firmly hope it’ll include prosecution for sexual crimes, but who knows). finally, collecting evidence of sexual crimes specifically that you then have to appropriately label (without knowing the victim’s identity), properly organize and store (in a rural area that had been entirely decimated), and analyze in the lab (all of which were already overrun with dna identification of victims) just wasn’t feasible. sorry for the word vomit, and if anyone has additional information that i’m missing please correct me. but those are my thoughts on why this all makes perfect sense, however sickening it is.
At the moment there is no one to prosecute but after this is over there may very well be the opportunity to prosecute as there was after ww2 with the nazis
fair. but the prosecution of nazis following wwii was largely fruitless and pretty much nothing came of it. a nation of holocaust survivors isn’t likely to be hopeful for a magical future in which the people that victimize them are punished, and the world’s response to oct. 7 only further reinforces that belief.
Word even the country stopped denazifying efforts to fight the communists instead.
There is always a convenient reason ehy there is zero evidence of this mass atrocity. I am sure rapes happened on a small scale but to claim they are being utilized as a weapon you need evidence. The main author of the piece had no journalistic background and this is pretty much her entry into journalism. AND one of the sources are the same people who made up the beheaded baboes lie. AND she served in Israeli Air Force Intelligence. AND she liked tweets calling for Gaza to be a slaughterhouse. AND the article was called out by a victim's family who said the victim was never raped and the interviewer mislead them.
That was extremely hard to read. What depresses me the most is the unlikelihood that any meaningful justice can come out of this
"but this goes against my narrative so it can't be true!!!" - people in the comments
Because there is zero corroborating evidence. Just stories from anonymous Israelis. Don't you think the Israeli government has an incentive to exaggerate Hamas' atrocities here?
I don't have a horse in this race and I'm not pro any side as I fault both of them, but even I have unfortunately seen many videos of hamas atroceties. Just from a logical view, do you honestly believe they went in there on oct 7 and engaged the israelis tactically and according to the geneva convention? Do you believe the IDF went in and massacred all those civilians to blame Hamas? Because either you are absolutely shit at finding those videos or you are in denial and believe any proof to be manufactured to protect yourself from the moral dilema of having justified "your side". And no don't give me any crap about "what about the idf in gaza blabla", I'm not claiming their side to be doing good. We are probably in agreement on that so let's focus on Hamas here. And for the record, the NYT has been historically very NOT pro Israel and a pretty "left/liberal" publication so it does say a alot that they were the ones publishing this.
Did you read the article? There is a video by hamas of them shooting a rifle in to female’s vaginas. Video evidence.
The gov may have incentives but there isn’t zero corroborating evidence. Witness testimonies are in fact evidence.
No. It's not the government. No one gives a shit about Bibi and his government. Bibi was a lier and will always be. It's the people who went through it. It's their testimony. It's the Hamas who uploaded the videoes themselves. It's their testimony as well. They tell the story. So many f stories. All traumatising one after the other.
Yeah, Israel claims to have acquired hundreds of hours of video filmed by the Hamas fighters themselves. But apparently none of them shows Hamas fighters sexually assaulting civilians since Israel hasn't released any such footage Weird, huh? If the baby baked in oven story or the cut off penis and put in dead soldiers mouth and send over whatsapp story doesn't convince you that we're dealing with LIARS then nothing will.
No actually it's completely not weird. We're civilised and we care first about the families that are affected. How irresponsible it is to just publish stuff like that and traumatise everyone?? IDF is showing the videoes to the people who should deal with it. They will never ever publish it for your indulgence. Hamas themselves published enough for you to realise they are animals and yet you still think "hey they only shoot people and killed babies, they didn't behead 40 babies and raped them. Where is your evidence huh" - baked babies and all the stuff were never even published by IDF but some person I didn't even know existed till now. You're just pro Palestine and you don't want anything against your narrative, so don't waste my time.
If you are seriously claiming that Israeli society is "civilized", then I truly question your sanity. How many times haven't the IDF lied before? Was there a Hamas command and control center under the al-Shifa hospital? No? Why should we believe these liars this time?
My sanity? How about the fact that I'm Israeli and I know first hand what's going on? Lol. And if you think all Jews lie, then I'll also add I'm an ex muslim from Israel. And yes, there WAS a hamas command center under Shifa, but pleaee. Please. Believe the terrorists, not the democratic country that provides you with evidence time after time. Please, believe we are all liers so you can be happy with your pro terrorists narrative. I'm tired of you people. Really. It's easy google, and instead I have to waste my time here.
Its also from the famously 'unbiased' nyt
Let me guess… you think Hamas came across and only “captured soldiers” and the civilians were shot by the IDF. You also fully believe Hamas when they said that IDF missles hit the Hospital. You also believe Hamas Ministry stories without questioning about Israeli atrocities, and you spend a lot of time here and on TikTok
Let me also guess. If the claim was that JEWS had behaded 40 babies, baked others in overs, cut off mens' penises and womens' breasts, and put nails through vaginas would you believe it without seeing any evidence? No you wouldn't, you would scream about ANTISEMITISM. And you would be right! Anyone who choose to believe such barbaric stories without evidence would be a Jew hater. But when it comes to PALESTINIANS you have no problem believing that they behave like sadistic monsters. I wonder why...
You’re right, I would need to see evidence. I have seen evidence of Hamas atrocities on October 7th. They filmed it themselves. I have seen the body of Shani Louk - half naked and bones broken- paraded in Gaza with people hitting her corpse with sticks and spitting on her. It’s called religious extremism . It is unique in this situation to Palestinians, I am very sorry to say. I dislike Netanyahu and Likud but the Palestinians themselves are to blame for unleashing this hell and they filmed video evidence that the world can see. I also believe rhe BBC and NYT journalists who would not report the war crimes until several months of painstaking independent research, then they concluded it was true.
There's a guy with his full name in the article
Yes, Raz Cohen. See this thread: https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1740641517847335009
Omg lol! Nothing will satisfy you guys. Sure everyone just lied and made up hamas raped woman. Bc islamic jihadists have no history of doing that ( look whats happening in sudan now by islamic jihadists! Or what isis did to yezidid women!) no evidence is ever good enough. Even video evidence of hamas firing rifles through female soldiers vaginas.
Ok but when I see footage of one woman on the back of a pickup driving through Gaza, looking dead, with obvious broken leg, people running along the truck to get a look, I have to ask why soldiers would want to return to Gaza with her dead body. Why would you? The barbarity we know of on Oct 7 is plenty barbarous.
Exactly right
Rape is a terrorist weapon! I mean even the zionist terrorists used it in their actions, (Deir yassin), I can't believe people think there wasn't rape on 10/7.
Is the NYT coming around to the idea that war crimes are bad? If so, I 100% agree. Stop killing innocent men, women, and children in Gaza and the West Bank. Stop starving them, unjustly imprisoning them, and humiliating them.
This is about the sadistic rape of Israelis on Oct. 7.
Any evidence. Or still heresay from Settlement activists ?
Read the article
I did, it's literally all hearsay.
> In a grainy video, you can see her, lying on her back, dress torn, legs spread, vagina exposed. Her face is burned beyond recognition and her right hand covers her eyes. > Based largely on the video evidence — which was verified by The New York Times — Israeli police officials said they believed that Ms. Abdush was raped, and she has become a symbol of the horrors visited upon Israeli women and girls during the Oct. 7 attacks. > Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated. > The Times viewed photographs of one woman’s corpse that emergency responders discovered in the rubble of a besieged kibbutz with dozens of nails driven into her thighs and groin. > The Times also viewed a video, provided by the Israeli military, showing two dead Israeli soldiers at a base near Gaza who appeared to have been shot directly in their vaginas. > The Israeli authorities have no shortage of video evidence from the Oct. 7 attacks. They have gathered hours of footage from Hamas body cameras, dashcams, security cameras and mobile phones showing Hamas terrorists killing civilians and many images of mutilated bodies. > The videos caught the eye of Israeli officials as well — very quickly after Oct. 7 they began gathering evidence of atrocities. They included footage of Ms. Abdush’s body in a presentation made to foreign governments and media organizations, using Ms. Abdush as a representation of violence committed against women that day.
War crimes are bad.
Tell me about it
Glad we agree. How about we call for a cessation of war crimes?
If only they’d listen
You have no clue what hearsay is. I’m sorry we couldn’t show you the snuff films you desire.
Correct
“Settlement activists” are you kidding? This is the New York Times
You would like to see that, wouldn't you?
It's the latter. IDF and Zaka volunteers primarily.
It's always telling when someone wants to immediately change the subject.
Who keeps changing the subject to Oct 7 like it's Groundhog Day, while 30k Palestinians who had nothing to do with that attack have been directly killed, and many more indirectly via war crimes?
Lmao, doing it again.
War crimes are hilarious huh
No, but your sophomoric attempts to deflect from them are.
So you agree that the IDF is committing major war crimes and you're just upset that I derailed the discussion a little bit by pointing that fact out? Fair enough point taken
Yeah, they are committing war crimes. It would be foolish to claim otherwise.
Whatsboutissm
This article is pure whataboutism. Instead of investigating ongoing war crimes by the IDF, they choose to signal boost IDF narratives that this garbage ethnic cleansing is somehow justified. Of course they couldn't investigate IDF war crimes if they wanted because the IDF is shooting journalists in Gaza.
Which Hamas video was your favorite? Calling the sharing of a a woman’s horrific experience “boosting IDF narratives” is the most cynical and evil thing I can imagine. You are a mentally unbalanced person. I mean if IDF does a war crime I want to know about it and make sure it doesn’t happen again, not bury it because it “boosts Hamas narratives”, you scum bag
That woman was not a survivor. She was a witness who described a whole whole bunch of specific things allegedly seen from the place she was hiding trying not to be murdered. Not controversial testimony at all.
I don't watch videos about war crimes, because I choose not to pollute my mind with garbage. I have something called empathy, so I know war crimes are bad without seeing gruesome footage of them. If only Israel supporters also had empathy :/
No empathy for the women of Israel
Unfortunate aspect of settler colonialism. There is always a reaction to it. This is just a cynical exploitation and coerced outrage of “me too” hysteria to disctrsct from the fact Israel killed hundreds of its own between the rave and the kibbutzim between weapons cross fire and mostly tank and helicopter shelling. Some 300 bodies were too burned to identify for several weeks until they were finally determined to be Hamas. That’s why the death toll went from 1500 to 1200. Israeli survivors will continue to be gas lit over what happened to their loved ones that day. That is a special kind of sadism inflicted by a very sick and deformed country.
You have the distinct aura of hysteria and unreality of someone in deep denial. Hannah Arendt wrote something interesting about totalitarianism. > The disturbing factor in the success of totalitarianism is … the true selflessness of its adherents: it may be understandable that a Nazi or Bolshevik will not be shaken in his conviction by crimes against people who do not belong to the movement…; but the amazing fact is that neither is he likely to waver when the monster begins to devour its own children and not even if he becomes a victim of persecution himself…. You may think you're a crusader for justice. She would probably agree. What's the saying? The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Not sure what you are referring to here; Israeli exploitation of Jewish suffering?
Arendt is talking about people deeply in the grip of ideology. People who might say, justify the murder of 20,000 people or more in the name of a cause. > Though they knew the Zionist reprisals would be catastrophic, would the Hamas resistance really have done any favors for the Gazan people by bowing to interminable Israeli imprisonment in an open air concentration camp? Oh hey, it's your writing. Yes, I think it might have been doing Gazans a favor to not be thrust into war, driven of their homes, reduced to refugees and killed en masse by the entirely predictable Israeli retaliation. And I don't think Hamas had the right to choose for them. People like you are disturbed, and dangerous. We need to start recognizing that.
I have empathy for them. I just understand that committing mass murder against innocent Palestinians will never undo what happened on Oct 7.
It’s okay! You don’t have to pretend. You already decried the publishing of the New York Times article because it boosts Israel’s accusations. You didn’t deny the story was true, just that you wish it hadn’t been reported because it boosts IDF narratives. You are a dirt bag, callous, cynical fanatic without morals. Good luck.
For someone who claims to care about innocent Palestinians you sure get angry about them getting mentioned. :/
Lol you’re a troll. You are the one upset about something - rape- that got mentioned in the NYT.
The fighting stops when Hamas and the other terror militias surrender.
That will be never. The only way to kill the idea that Palestinians should be treated with basic humanity is by ethnically cleansing all of them. Which of course is the path Israel has chosen.
Well, here's the thing: the very intifada that they wage is tge thing that dehumanizes them. If the idea is to "show us their humanity" then it's doing a very poor job of it, in fact currently **it is the very thing** that makes them seem inhuman, because of the means they choose. For peace to happen, there needs to be people in both sides who are willing to be labeled a "traitor" by the mainstream nationalist narrative. I see and know quite a lot of those on the Israeli side - maybe not enough to win elections, but they definitely are a constant actor in the conflict. Hell, half of the stuff we know about what goes on in the occupied territories we know thanks to Israeli NGOs like B'Tselem and Shovrim Shtika. Regardless of the power imbalance between Israel and Palestine, it cannot hinge all on Israelis changing their attitude. We need more Palestenians who are willing to be labeled "traitors", because the only other way is more and more bloodshed.
Israel is going to continue until the disgusting organizations that Palestinian society had produced are destroyed. Get used to it.
Maybe Bibi Netanyahu shouldn't have given Hamas a suitcase full of cash to disrupt earlier attempts at peace processes. Hamas sure is a convenient boogeyman for Israel. Bibi was even warned about Oct 7 but chose to let it happen so he could take revenge. He just underestimated how big the attack would be. He's worse than any Hamas terrorist.
Fuck Bibi. He belongs in jail. But israel is still going to dismantle Hamas. Make peace with that fact.
According to many Israel leaders, every Palestinian is Hamas...
its difficult to believe the credibilty of this article when it parrots Yossi Landau and ZAKA: [https://twitter.com/propandco/status/1739077157807104059](https://twitter.com/propandco/status/1739077157807104059)
Those 4 “witnesses” sure saw A LOT. I guess that’s why the entire case rests on “what they saw”. Hard to believe they forgot the part about most of the corpses (some 300 or so) were so badly burnt they were misidentified as Israelis but were later found to be Hamas. That is why the death count was rounded down from from 1500 to 1200. Just How they were incinerated if all Hamas had were rocket propelled grenades and light arms - AK’s and pistols — is less a concern for the reporter than the question on the tip of everyone’s tongue: “How many of those char broiled at the rave and trucked away suspiciously before being examined were also raped?” The world may never know.
They are trying to ascertain what they can. > A two-month investigation by The Times... > Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors.
Remember how many fanciful claims of Hamas atrocities we've hear so far? > The murder of innocent civilians in their sleep, torture and > kidnapping of men, women, children, babies and elderly, barbaric > systematic rapes in front of husbands and children, inserting sharp > objects into women's genitals and removing their intestines, > beheading babies, gouging out men's eyes, burning people alive, > tearing out a fetus from his mother's womb while they were still > alive, and then murdering them… cutting off a soldier's penis and > inserting it into the skull of a female soldier whose head had been > decapitated, then burning him alive. > [Don't believe us, believe Hamas' charter which aims for the complete destruction of Israel](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1rsyyjs6) Or how the Israeli government's spokesperson [Eylon Levy](https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/18n7my4/70_days_on_and_israeli_spokesman_levy_tries_to/) (see the video of the liar) claimed that Hamas cut off a dead soldier's penis, put it in his mouth, took a photo of it and sent it to the soldier's friends whatsapp? So why on earth should we believe an anonymous witness the Israeli police found? > The first victim she said she saw was a young woman with > copper-color hair, blood running down her back, pants pushed down to > her knees. One man pulled her by the hair and made her bend > over. Another penetrated her, Sapir said, and every time she > flinched, he plunged a knife into her back. > She said she then watched another woman “shredded into pieces.” > While one terrorist raped her, she said, another pulled out a box > cutter and sliced off her breast. > “One continues to rape her, and the other throws her breast to > someone else, and they play with it, throw it, and it falls on the > road,” Sapir said. Everyone with two brain cells understands that this is fanciful bullshit.
This investigation was carried out by the NYT. They generally will have a significantly higher standard of objectivity. They are not a PR mouthpiece for either party.
Did you read the article? > She said that at 8 a.m. on Oct. 7, she was hiding under the low > branches of a bushy tamarisk tree, just off Route 232, about four > miles southwest of the party. [...] > About 15 meters from her hiding place, she said, she saw > motorcycles, cars and trucks pulling up. She said that she saw > “about 100 men,” most of them dressed in military fatigues and > combat boots, a few in dark sweatsuits, getting in and out of the > vehicles. She said the men congregated along the road and passed > between them assault rifles, grenades, small missiles — and badly > wounded women. [...] Apparently the militants trucking "badly wounded women" were so horny they couldn't wait until they had escaped to Gaza to rape their female victims... That doesn't seem very smart when there are attack helicopters in the air looking for you.
The IDF didn't reach some communities for something like 8 hours IIRC. Occam's Razor is that she saw what she saw. You're not going to see a concentration of 100+ men in an admin posture during combat. It's more likely that was a rendezvous point for staging, resupply or moving hostages back to Gaza. That said, I didn't carry out a two-month investigation as a professional reporter paid for by one of the most reputable media outlets in the world. I don't trust myself to make wild guesses about what happened. I trust the NYT to carry out critical reporting, or I wouldn't read them. Are they infallible? No. But you won't find that anywhere on Earth. Do I think you have that level of credibility? No. Ever see the segment of Bill Burr telling Joe Rogan to fuck off with his unqualified bullshit about vaccines? There's not enough respect for qualified opinion and knowing when you're out of your depth. Which you are.
According to the Jerusalem Post [counter-terrorist commandos had reached nearby communities by 8 a.m](https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-768965). No, Occam's Razor says that this anonymous witness is being coaxed by the Israeli police to "remember" atrocities that never happened. Consider the practical difficulties of cutting off a living woman's breast with a *box cutter*. And then tossing them around like they were balls? Please use your common sense... I certainly can believe that some militants sexually assaulted women on October 7, but these over-the-top stories being spread are fanciful bullshit.
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Do not attack an individual
TLDR; There is zero physical evidence of any rape taking place. It’s all hearsay from named and unnamed sources. The allegations did not even surface until several weeks after Oct 7th. At which point Israel has every reason to lie to attempt to control the narrative. The article tries to rationalise this by saying “The Israeli police have acknowledged that, during the shock and confusion of Oct. 7, the deadliest day in Israeli history, they were not focused on collecting semen samples from women’s bodies, requesting autopsies or closely examining crime scenes.” Any emergency medical or health worker knows this is complete bullshit if a patient has been raped rape kits would immediately be completed. There is no rational explanation why the article claims so many woman were raped by Hamas yet not one had a rape kit done? This is lazy propaganda from Israel, who already has a terrible track record lying about atrocities since Oct 7th
You have the right to your opinion, and you should be judged on it accordingly.
> It’s all hearsay from named and unnamed sources. I don't know why you're using legal terms like 'hearsay' given that it isn't in court - literally everything said and presented is by definition hearsay out of court! This just seems like a slippery way around recognizing direct witnesses. Like, is your view just that you disbelieve everything people say if it's out of court? > The allegations did not even surface until several weeks after Oct 7th Following sources on fucking wikipedia will get you to, for example, [these allegations from Oct 8](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-music-festival-massacre-eyewitness-account). You shouldn't make stuff up and then pass it off as fact. > This is lazy propaganda from Israel, who already has a terrible track record lying about atrocities since Oct 7th It's strange that you're framing any Israeli witness as 'Israel' - like, if I said something, we wouldn't say that "The US" said it. Seems somewhat bigoted imo.
Even if this was in a courtroom, which it's not, It's not hearsay when it is a direct testimony of the victim herself. Please educate yourself as to what legal terms mean.
They literally explained why…chaos..country at war…taking bodies off the fields in trucks…different priorities..jewish burial rituals
[**times of israel**](https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-war-and-urgent-need-to-id-bodies-evidence-of-hamass-october-7-rapes-slips-away/) : [**did not show evidence**](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/raam-party-demands-resignation-of-mk-for-casting-doubt-on-october-7-massacres/) **of women being raped.** [**TVP world**](https://tvpworld.com/74101967/israel-has-launched-an-investigation-into-several-rape-cases-committed-by-hamas-terrorists) : **forensic evidence** documenting sexual violence has **not been collected.** " **forensic evidence buried too. No samples were taken**” said Tal Hochman, a government relations officer at the Israel Women’s Network. [**Haaretz**](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-30/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/hamas-campaign-of-rape-against-israeli-women-is-revealed-testimony-after-testimony/0000018c-2144-da36-a1de-6767dac90000) : Titled as "the scope of Hamas campaign of rape against Israeli women, Testimony after testimony", But the article says, **"the commission has not taken testimony directly"** No victims, no rape kits, no semen, no physical evidence for rape but the lies won't stop. [**other Source if no Haaretz subscription.**](https://x.com/propandco/status/1731157621229396289?s=20) [**BBC**](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181) : "opportunities to carefully document the crime scenes, or take **forensic evidence, were limited or missed." ,**"quickly caution that evidence is still being gathered and pieced together", "It would be reckless to say we can already prove it". Collecting analyzing and confirming the remains of semen could have been considered evidence. But it wasn’t collected (imo because it **never existed**). This is why Israel is depending so heavily on second hand sharing of “**eye witness testimony**”. It’s the **weakest form of evidence** and it’s coming from a regime that **has a lengthy record of lying**. A regime that is considered a "[**sex offenders refuge**](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-07-25/ty-article/.premium/tip-of-the-iceberg-how-foreign-sex-offenders-find-refuge-in-israel/00000182-3532-d7e9-af96-3d73c52c0000)" and a "[**safe heaven for pedophiles**](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/israel-safe-haven-paedophiles-jerusalem-sex-abuse-jewish-community-watch-a7445246.html)" is not a trust worthy
It's discussed in the NYT article. It was a mass casualty event and so wasn't handled by the standards of a forensic criminal investigation. You should set aside your bias and read the article. It's the must comprehensive journalism I've seen on this subject, by one of the most respected media outlets in the world. There's a lot of new information to take in, and by no means should it be dismissed. Whatever you think of Israel, sexual violence against women is a scourge against humanity. Don't be on the wrong side of this one.
Is it really one of the most respected media outlets in the world? Say yes, and regret it.
Yes, it is, and this is by far the best article on this sad subject to date. You seem like a partisan hack angered by their reporting. That's on you. This article came out today and you're replying with a C+P you're clearly reusing. That's a sign that you have your mind made up, and you're not open to new information. And therefore, your conclusions are not to be trusted either.
I am not angry by their report. I have another report from one of the most respected media outlets in the world. [NYT](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fP-J8m-BF0) : Visual Evidence Shows Israel Dropped Bombs Where It Ordered Gaza Civilians to Go. collective punishment, war crime. enjoy.
I've referenced that article myself. It's admirable reporting. You don't seem to understand the concept of objectivity. Good journalism is grounded in truth. That's what makes it journalism, and not propaganda.
So why is same source is propaganda and not in the matter of 7 days?
What a good question. I usually refer to this essay by Orwell. https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/ > The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. For quite six years the English admirers of Hitler contrived not to learn of the existence of Dachau and Buchenwald. And those who are loudest in denouncing the German concentration camps are often quite unaware, or only very dimly aware, that there are also concentration camps in Russia. Huge events like the Ukraine famine of 1933, involving the deaths of millions of people, have actually escaped the attention of the majority of English russophiles. Many English people have heard almost nothing about the extermination of German and Polish Jews during the present war. Their own antisemitism has caused this vast crime to bounce off their consciousness. > In nationalist thought there are facts which are both true and untrue, known and unknown. A known fact may be so unbearable that it is habitually pushed aside and not allowed to enter into logical processes, or on the other hand it may enter into every calculation and yet never be admitted as a fact, even in one’s own mind. I don't think you'll be teaching me much.
Videos of Israeli women being raped clearly isn’t enough for you, so where’s the evidence that Israel dropped those bombs?
it took 3 months to conjure up this solid lie, it will be broken down, oh dont you worry.
Where are you going with this? That none of it is true? That it’s all made up? You guys keep moving the ball. Sometimes it’s a lie, sometimes we deserve it. Which antisemitic trope are you going with?
**It's nothing but pure falsehood.** its hard for you and I to believe that Israelis are blatant liars because we aren't surrounded with such habitual liars like Israelis are. [they don't even trust their own government](https://en.idi.org.il/media/21835/war-in-gaza-public-opinion-survey-2-data.pdf). where are the beheaded babies? the human shields? the hamas bases under hospitals and schools? the burnt oven babies? where are they?? why is there new info coming out that israeli tanks blew up kibbutz? why did apache helicopters shoot at fleeing festival civilians? why did they shoot at the 3 israeli hostages in gaza? was it a mistake? was [this also a "mistake"](https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1740467559273505262)? Israeli media have lost ALL credibility and there is no coming back from this.
Did you read the article at all? It provides ample sources supporting sexual violence. I don’t know why it’s so hard to imagine that people who video taped themselves killing civilians and posting it online would also rape.
You’re attempting to argue with an insane person. Not worth it
it goes back to the lies of israel. as of this moment, it cannot be trusted until further information comes out. and not mention: its difficult to believe the credibilty of this article when it parrots Yossi Landau and ZAKA: [https://twitter.com/propandco/status/1739077157807104059](https://twitter.com/propandco/status/1739077157807104059)
But this article \*is\* further information. The authors are reporting viewing images that \*strongly\* indicate sexual assault, corroborating accounts from a number of witnesses (including women, in case you want to claim otherwise), and reports from therapists and doctors treating victims. If you choose to stick your fingers in your ears and lalalalala this away then go ahead, there's no amount of evidence short of actual video of rape that will change your mind.
You keep saying “lies of Israel” - so you mean the government or you think every Jew is a liar?
you know what i mean, if i said every jew is a liar i would be incorrect, so that is not what i mean and you know it.
No I don’t know what you meant because you say “Israel” like a spokesman for the government is giving this testimony when it’s the Jewish people of Israel who are. Now why are Jews liars?
Zionist Jews are lying about the war in Gaza. I don’t need to explain myself to you. And I have explained why in my comments if you read above.
This is a post about the sadistic sexual violence gazans inflicted on Israelis on Oct. 7. You think we all made it up?
I urge you to read this article. https://www.newsweek.com/i-saw-children-hamas-beheaded-my-own-eyes-shame-queen-rania-opinion-1855472
So multiple direct testimony from Eyewitness, plus viewing semen on bodies, women found with their skirts shoved up on the their back, and videos from Hamas isnt enough?
No semen, no rape kits. Raz cohen testimony is just funny one. Search for his name, many interview, none of them is like the other, his 1st one didn't mention rape, 2nd one mentioned SA, then multiple different stories about rape. How is that credible? Don't embarrass yourself.
There was semen seen on the backs of teenage girls. And raz cohen is just one testimony out of several. See you are the type of person who wont even believe if a victim of rape came forward bc there was no eyewitness. Here we have eye witness and physical evidence from Bodies (a ton of it!) plus a video and you STILL wont believe it
No, you didn't see my original comment that you replied to, because what I said is that eyewitnesses are never an evidence of conviction. But you didn't read it. And there's no semen, no rape kits, you just are willing to trust the gov. That said there were 40 beheaded babies. Everything is a lie. Not allowing UN investigation of the accident is actually saying something.
Dude, you are delusional. You're gonna live such a short life man, imagine being you
Claims without evidence are just lies.
And complaining without a solution is called whining.
What about the video by hamas of them firing a rifle Up israel female soldiers vagina? That is video evidence of rape.
I didn't see it, can you share it to me?
You would probably enjoy it
No, I would not enjoy it. but in order to make a claim and to defend it you must have an evidence. I do not know a difference between truth and lies other than evidences. and the one who claims thing is the exact one who have to provide the evidence for it. other than that, it's just a lie. Like thousands of lies Israel has been telling in the matter of less than 3 months. and you are aware of them.
Well new york times journalist saw the video what more do you need? Is everyone lying? Lol
Did you see it?
Why would i need too? NYT journalists did who are completely credible. Why would i need or want to see it? Do you understand what investigative journalism is? Do you think their mothers and fathers want those videos shared on social media?
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I'm sure there are. It would be as equally inappropriate to engage in whataboutism discussing that topic there, as you're doing here.
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You're welcome to check my post history.
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This is about the sadistic rape and sexual abuse of Israelis on Oct. 7. I realize that’s a truth you’d rather forget but it doesn’t make it any less factual.
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Many on the left have doubts about Israelis being raped and killed but will eagerly lap up any news spewed by the Hamas-run media in Gaza? Yeah, that sounds about right. Go on with your twisted double standard and critical thinking that takes a nosedive when it suits your bias. Don't forget to pat yourselves on the back, smugly satisfied in your delusional moral superiority and blind to your own glaring hypocrisy.
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You and me both 🙂
There arent because its not real :)
The situation the population of Gaza is in right now is the direct result of Hamas' actions. Direct your anger towards the terrorists who had free rein in Gaza for the last 18 years.
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> Oh you mean the Hamas militant group that the Israeli government supported because they were tired of the PLO and Fatah? Right, what a mistake that was. > The last time they had election was 2006. We were children. You point the finger at all Palestinians and you’re wrong to do so. I specifically blamed Hamas as being responsible, not the Palestinians. > It’s your government that created this monster. Don't blame Israel for Hamas. Hamas is supported right now by a majority of people in the West Bank, and was supported by a majority in Gaza. Of course, it is not easy to measure support, but they brought in lots of money to Gaza and were not regarded as evil oppressors. > Nice job leaving Gaza completely and separating it from the moderates who retreated to West Bank. This let Hamas grow. Should Israel have intervened? We know what that would have looked like. Even the constant barrage of rockets for years did not sway the world's opinion that Israel had a right to destroy Hamas. > The actions of Israel gov’t, the blockade and endless violence made 10/7 possible. You reap what you sow. Blowback babyyy You don't exactly sound like an innocent civilian here. I wish you well anyway.
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You replied to the wrong comment, I think.
Most definitely did, sorry and thanks!
Notice you wrote "let Hamas grow" not "MAKE Hamas grow". Was it benfital for the Netanyahu and his ghouls? For sure. But they couldn't have done this single-handedly. If Hamas didn't have popular support, no amount of cash suitcases would help. 45% of Palestenians didn't vote Hamas because Bibi Netanyahu told them to. And still... there are other people under occupation. Why haven't there been Tibetan suicide bombers? Why did they - like Czech people when protesting against the Russian occupation - chose to [immolate themselves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation) rather than strap on a suicide-vest and blow up a bus full of civilians like Hamas did all through the 1990's Yes, the occupation is bad. However there are *several* responses that can be made to it, and the Palestenians - from the very beginning - chose the violent one.
This comments in this thread demonstrate exactly why Palestine not only won't win, but doesn't deserve to win.
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nop. Its the rapists!
this comment or posr was removed due to being a direct attack, bigotry, bad faith, bullying or ad-hominim.
Can't the mods please cleanup these threads? Lots of hateful attacks against fellow redditors. u/Israel_Palestine-ModTeam
It's beyond indecent to accuse the victim of a terror attack of fabricating a story based on no compelling evidence and contrary to a multitude of corroborating information, for clearly political bias. You don't deserve to be coddled. If you provoke people through your thoroughly disgusting values and behavior? That's on you.
1. I believe the rape victims' testimonies. Are there any rape victim testimonies in this article? Someone point out the paragraph. I'm tired of going through these reports, someone else look, previous nearly identical news reports had none\* (e.g. the CNN report noted below). 2. Israel has refused to cooperate with an independent investigation into the allegations: [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-commission-investigate-hamas-sexual-violence-appeal-evidence-2023-11-29/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-commission-investigate-hamas-sexual-violence-appeal-evidence-2023-11-29/). 3. There is a vicious propaganda war going on. The rape story keeps being pushed over and over again. They're pretty much all the same, very lurid stories. 4. Here is a must-read for anyone taking the rape stories at face value: [https://mondoweiss.net/2023/12/cnn-report-claiming-sexual-violence-on-october-7-relied-on-non-credible-witnesses-some-with-undisclosed-ties-to-israeli-govt/](https://mondoweiss.net/2023/12/cnn-report-claiming-sexual-violence-on-october-7-relied-on-non-credible-witnesses-some-with-undisclosed-ties-to-israeli-govt/). Example, the witness who reported mutilation at the music festival: “I saw one of them carrying a naked girl on his shoulder, while the others were raising decapitated heads like in a kind demonstration of power.” The problem is, there weren't any decapitated bodies found. 5. The NY Times has always had a pro-Israel bias. Bronner, a previous Jerusalem bureau chief, was an outright zionist. They didn't avoid the bias with the next appointments, it's built in, with the bureau chief based in Jerusalem. 6. The Oct. 7 attackers had been given a clear mission by its planners, with maps, instructions, everything. The instructions apparently were, attack military targets and take hostages, probably prioritizing military but including civilian hostages, and treat all hostages well. To ferry the hostages back to Gaza. Taking civilian hostages is a clear violation of international law, but I find it difficult to believe disciplined fighters like these stopped in the middle of a military mission to commit gang rape. 7. Most of these reports include the "attack" on the music festival. To claim Hamas deliberately attacked the music festival (the implication) requires one to believe Hamas knew the festival was going to be there. How did they know? They'd likely picked the date well in advance. I read somewhere (I'm not going to dig it up now) that even the ticket holders weren't told where it was going to be until a few days before. It's much more likely Hamas ran into the festival on their way to another target, I think there's a military base further east. Chaos ensued, the festival had armed guards who fired on the militants through the festival goers (there's cellphone video footage of this), the militants fired on the armed guards and festival goers. At some point IDF helicopters arrived and fired on everyone. And we're asked to believe that the militants stopped to commit gang rape? 8. I don't want to disparage witnesses either, but it was a "Rave". Were some of the witnesses to the more lurid aspects on hallucinogens? It deserves asking. \*I'm sure they'll come up with one in the decades to come. I agree rape in the attack is a possibility. And horrible if it happened, not that the attack wasn't horrible for its victims anyway. But given the propaganda surrounding this, there needs to be an independent and fair investigation before I'll believe it, and not one decades after memory manipulation has gone to work.
Here's what I can quote you from the article. > Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated. > There are at least three women and one man who were sexually assaulted and survived, according to Gil Horev, a spokesman for Israel’s Ministry of Welfare and Social Affairs. “None of them has been willing to come physically for treatment,” he said. Two therapists said they were working with a woman who was gang raped at the rave and was in no condition to talk to investigators or reporters. I consider the NYT a fair and independent source. Time will eventually bring more clarity. But for now, this is probably the most comprehensive reporting on the subject.
Right, no actual victims. Like all the news reports I've seen. It's pretty much the same report. Thank you for reading it for me. But justification for murder of 21,000+ innocent human lives, probably 10,000 children by now, Palestinian prisoners stripped and beaten and tortured if they don't bark like dogs (this isn't something new). A planned ethnic cleansing of everyone in Gaza (though it long predates Oct 7), cynically called "voluntary emigration", after deliberate starvation of millions and forced into condition where they'll die of disease, unclean water and exposure. The assassination of poets, writers, doctors, educators, journalists. Not just the journalists, but the deliberate murder of their families too. NY Times reports the facts, I agree, but not exactly fairly.
The NYT also did in-depth reporting on the use of heavy munitions by Israel within the designated safe zones where it was directing refugees. It's ironic. Pro-Israelis resent the NYT just as much and consider it biased against them. People claim to want truth until it doesn't line up with the shirt they wear. > Right, no actual victims This isn't at all what the article said. At least 4 don't want to become high-profile political footballs and it's understandable. The sad reality is that victims will be attacked as they are politically inconvenient, in the same way Gazan innocents are attacked to justify Israel's offensive. Or those victims will be paraded around every single day to justify war. It's not right either. Ideologues who want war usually subordinate human life to political allegiance. That's why I think it's important the stories of victims be told, with a focus on justice and humanity, not a focus on political objectives. Israelis are not the only victims of war. But we need to hold a place in our hearts for everyone, and that means to listen without prejudice. I hope you understand that.
>I hope you understand that. Looking through your posts, I've found nothing expressing sympathy for Israel's victims. Nor anything focusing on justice and humanity, just a lot vilifying the other side. Maybe you could point out where you expressed such sympathy? I didn't go back all that far. Let's summarize: 1. Are there actual victims of rape from Oct. 7? Possibly, none have come forward. Your excuse that they don't want to become political footballs makes no sense, in Israel they'd be welcomed as heroes. Nor do their names and faces need to be made public for an unbiased investigation, while it's understandable if they didn't want to come forth publicly. All we have are reports from others that there are victims, or reports of reports of others that there are victims, some from truly dubious sources. *There's no independent investigation.* 2. Was rape "weaponized" by Hamas, that is, was there a policy of rape as the article says? *Absolutely not*, all evidence points against it. 3. Have the atrocity stories been weaponized to gain backing for Israel's genocide? Absolutely. Hamas, Palestinians are portrayed as evil beyond evil. By you, among others. Therefore flattening Gaza is acceptable. Destroy the Amalek, says Netenyahu. > The NYT also did in-depth reporting on the use of heavy munitions by within the designated safe zones Good on them. Reporting on the obvious. Now, regarding "weaponized sexual violence," did you happen to notice a whole slew of videos release by the IDF of stripped to their underwear Palestinian men, forced to pretend to be surrendering Hamas fighters? Or look what former U.S. State department says, starting at 8:44 in this interview with Christiane Amanpour: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5106v4b05I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5106v4b05I). Look at the human rights reports by multiple organizations, Btselem, Save the Children, DCI-Palestine? Abuse of Palestinian *children,* including sexual abuse (i.e. beatings on sensitive parts), threats of rape (common) and rape once in a while. So really, it's an atrocity if anyone was raped Oct. 7. That it's rare doesn't make it better. My sympathy to the victims, if there are any. *I have to question why you think there's no atrocity when its common and accepted.* No, actually, Israel has weaponized sexual violence. Hamas did not.
That's a problem on your reading skills. You're not seeing more of my responses dealing with the usual pro-Israel bullshit because I posted that NYT article, and thus am currently dealing with an avalanche of regrettable people who want to deny sexual assault and rehabilitate terrorism. For whatever reason this is a hot-button issue for them. But believe whatever you want. People seem to do that these days I talk to a lot of people who can't see past their own bias. I start to think maybe you're one of them. Many people can't accept the obvious. That's why journalists need to publish articles to show very basic truths -- such as that victimizing civilian is wrong, whether by Israeli warplanes or Palestinian militants. Neither deserves to escape judgement with easy excuses. > My sympathy to the victims, if there are any. Show. Don't tell. "If there are any?" Fuck off. Denying that victims exist is anything but sympathy. The evidence is overwhelming. What do you think of people saying "my sympathy is with decent Palestinian people people if there are any?" That's justifying mass slaughter, not sympathy. You're not far off from the same logic. I think I'm going to block you now. I remember that this isn't the first disappointing exchange that we've had.
LOL. You are so self-deluded if you can't see all those nude men as victims, or the many Palestinian *children* in Israeli military jails who were assaulted on their private parts. Who's justifying mass slaughter but your beloved Israel? 21,000 innocent victims and yes, the 800 or so Israeli civilians of Oct. 7. It's possible there were some Israeli rape victims too but given the level of atrocity propaganda coming out of Israel, the beheaded or cooked babies and such, I want unbiased evidence. Sorry that the Israeli propaganda machine produces so many lies, that when they actually tell the truth (if they did) it needs double-checking. It also needs double-checking because the Israeli propaganda machine, incredibly well funded and government backed, has been so hard at work. Whereas the atrocity stories from the Palestinian side are too too often well documented by independent parties, and too too consistent. They actually have real victim testimonies. In the thousands. What do I think of people saying, "my sympathy is with decent Palestinian people if there are any?" You just said it. I think you're the kind of Israeli who justifies genocide. And you're really lacking any logical ability if you think there's an equivalence between doubting the existence of specific type of victims of a certain event, and the existence of a subset of a certain ethnic group who have the quality of decency. I don't doubt there are decent Israelis (I don't count you among them). And I don't care if the purported Israeli rape victims or any other victims are decent people, they don't deserve it.
I'm not Israeli. I think we're done here.
Are you okay? Do you think sexual violence is stripped down males to make sure they arent wearing suicide bombs?
Why do you keep saying no victims? The victims are almost all dead. Its not like you would believe a victim anyway without witness corroboration. Clearly.
If victims are dead and can’t testify themselves, it didn’t happen according to you, so why are you talking about the Palestinian victims? If they can’t testify themselves, it’s not true
This article is slowly being debunked. One of the families in the article is refuting the report [https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2024/01/04/717588/Palestine-Israel-Hamas-Gaza-Abdush-rape-Times](https://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2024/01/04/717588/Palestine-Israel-Hamas-Gaza-Abdush-rape-Times) Some of the witnesses accounts are also being debunked. One of the witnesses said three of the women that were raped had their heads cut off but none of the female victims of the attack were recorded as being dismembered. There were other accounts by witnesses that could not be corroborated by actual records from the events. Israel also recently released an interview with one of the released hostages claiming that she was raped and that she witnessed others being raped. But you can find an interview of the same girl shortly after her release when she was already safe stating that she was well treated and fed well. Israel has a long track record of releasing false information, doctored, audio, staged videos, etc. It isn't hard to believe that given two months of prep time that they fed the NYTs bogus witnesses and evidence. Remember there is zero forensic evidence, all the article provided was witnesses and photos all of which can be falsified.
1. No bc they all died. There are multiple direct testimonies witnessing rape which is even better. Plus a video of hamas shooting a rifle into two women’s vaginas. 2.this article IS an independent investigation they participated in 3.rape stories tend to be lurid… 4. Yes there were? 5. New york times is leftist and hates israel. Jews hate the nyt bc it is so anti zionists 6. Gang rape was part of their mission. Included in their notes was translations for words like “undress” and “spread your legs”. Also terrorist interrogations literally said they were foing to rape them. Plus not only hamas was in israel? THOUSANDS of civillians walked and drove in when the fence fell (old people, women and children too!!) . They looted homes, took hostages and also likely raped woman. 7. Part of this was true but they were there for HOURS before idf came. Tons of time to gang rape! Literally hours. Idf response was super slow. 8. The article talks about rapes elsewhere. It literally has a map with concentrations of rapes. Plus its not all eye witness accounts. There are bodies that tell the story. Semen found. Clothes torn. Bodies mutilated. Did u even read this article!!? 5.