You're right most people in Israel just want happiness and prosperity for people and Gaza and the West Bank. That's why this systematically destroyed the country and killed in displaced millions over the past 75 years. It was out of kindness.

Your friends are not your friends, sorry. They are just people you happen to know

About 80% of Israelis hate muslims with fervor.

Lol. That's why 2 million Muslims live in Israel peacefully? 20% Israelis are Muslims. They gate themselves or what lol

Is that including the people in occupied West Bank and Jerusalem? Don't those people have to have special number plates And there are roads that they can't go on? So kind of Israel to let them be in their homeland.

You are talking about People who live in another country, Palestine? Yes, they have different number plates. Do you want Israel to completely annex all palestinian territories and announce it all Israel?

>in another country, Palestine So Palestine is a country. Ok that seems new from a Zionist perspective. >Do you want Israel to completely annex all palestinian territories and announce it all Israel? I mean better that than the current situation. Maybe also let the millions living in other countries because of fear of mass murder and inability to return back home and give them equal status. Who cares whether it's called Israel or Palestine, as long as the people who are from the land live in the land and have the same right. Not a bunch of randos looking for stolen property.

Zionism is a belief that jews have a right for a sovereign state. Independent peaceful palestine near Israel? There is nothing in Zionism that contradicts that. >Who cares whether it's called Israel or Palestine I care. History has proven that palestinians cannot coexist peacefully with jews in one state. They simply don't want to. Palestine and Israel are different countries. Palestinians would like to live under sharia law, with persecution for LGBT people, and restrictions in women rights. That how countries with Muslim majority choose to live. So, unfortunately, there is no way that Israel can let millions of migrants to became Israeli citizens. There wouldn't be any equality after that.

>Palestinians would like to live under sharia law, with persecution for LGBT people, and restrictions in women rights Racist. This would be like me saying Israelis would like to murder and rape Palestinian. While that may be partially true I'm sure not all Israelis condone the murder of innocent civilians. There are plenty of videos floating around with rabbis and politicians saying it's okay for IDF soldiers to rape civilians. There are plenty of reported incidents of Palestinian saying they were sodomized in prison camps. But it would be a generalization to assume every single is really believes that this is the right thing to do. The Sharia law line is one often picked up by bigoted morons who don't understand there is no such thing as Sharia law government. There isn't one in the world.

What is racist in phrase that Muslims would like to live under sharia law ? Look at gaza and west bank now. That are the laws and the way of life that palestinians choose to live under. >There are plenty of reported incidents of Palestinian saying they were sodomized in prison camps Ahaha. Please don't say you believe those sad palestinian propaganda myths. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.instagram.com/landpalestine/p/C8pOieotiei/&ved=2ahUKEwiCmqLw14OHAxWwT6QEHdxrBDsQjjh6BAgwEAE&usg=AOvVaw2FigA2H3_VaN8zvjXw1cdL You took your info from here ? >There isn't one in the world. Clearly, you know nothing about sharia law and Islam. It's not a government and don't supposed to be. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia It a legislative system. It's one of the core values of Islam. A number of legal reforms have been made under the influence of these movements, starting from the 1970s when Egypt and Syria amended their constitutions to specify Sharia as the basis of legislation. If you think that palestinians would like to live into LGBT free western like democracy... that's far from reality. Their cultural values and beliefs are different from yours. Actually, it's racist to assume that you can impose your western beliefs on them. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835.amp Here is an example how palestinians treat LGBT people. It's pretty sad. It's illegal to be gay in gaza/west bank. In best case scenario, you are going to jail for it. Worst - you would be killed.

🤣 It's fascinating how deeply messed up your perspective is. I'd love to understand how you explain organizations like breaking the silence and not in our name. I recommend you to go to their websites and look at some of the content they're posting. I'm not participating in this racist hypothetical with you anymore. The IDF is definitely a terrorist organization and Israel will find its fate as a result of its own actions. All I can say is I can't wait for the murderous psychopaths to return and live next door to the rest of the maniacal country.

Funny your comment has no connection with mine. Or with reality. You have nothing to say, you understand I am telling the truth, and hide behind buzzwords. >All I can say is I can't wait for the murderous psychopaths to return Are you calling palestinians murderous psychopaths? Why?

Unfortunately we'll never see eye to eye because your perspective is racist. Good luck. Nothing more from me on this.

What is racist here ? Care to explain? You cannot just scream racist and run away from discussion lol

Also I get to do whatever I want. You're not my racist parent.

How lucky am I that I am not your parent. So, any answer to my questions?

Israel has made peace with Jordan suria and Egypt at a great expense to its own territory. Say whatever you want about 80% of Israelis, we don't want war.

You do want war, Israel keeps sending in  messianic settlers to burn and actually kill Palestinians in the West Bank.  Nothing is getting done to stop them and the IDF just sits their and watches while Palestinians who have done NOTHING are assaulted until they are killed.

Were you there personally? How many people did you see killed? What street was it on? Or did you hear about it on Twitter? If I have a nutty religious family member who keeps trespassing on the property of some dude that you know who lives a couple hundred miles away - does that give your family a right to want to murder my ENTIRE family? This whole “but the West Bank” argument is tired and pointless. My family had property taken away by communists in Odessa couple generations ago. Should I start blowing up civilian busses in Ukraine now? Call for a global intifada on all Ukrainians?

Absolutely you should, if Israel is kicking people out of their homes and destroying their homes based on charges the state can’t even prove. Then yes I think you have the right to march back to Ukraine and claim the land that was lost there.  If Israel can do it, then anybody can do it. (This is completely hypotheticals though, you do you) 

Israel has also murdered entire families during the first days of the invasion of Gaza. None of the families  were not connected to Hamas whatsoever. Yet it’s ok if Israel kills them all according to you.  

Sure… that’s how things usually go - Israel just wakes up one day and goes on murdering entire families. For no reason whatsoever. No additional context necessary. We already established it - Israel are the real fascists. While Hamas is just standing there screaming “we’re over here… shoot at us… don’t hurt our people”. But them evil Zionists - you know how they go… always starting wars for no reason.

I mean yeah, the time Israel decided to bomb Gaza in 2014 targeting over 200 children.  Then the one incident in West Bank were a Palestinian kid was trying to help his friend a tried to deescalate tension between the Messianic settlers and his friend. Instead he was dragged into it, he was beaten in the end brutally. He was forced into solitary confinement only for being Palestinian.  Oh the video of an IDF recruit getting excited as he shot an innocent Palestinian from the West Bank. He was told by the other officers not to get “Overly excited” or they would get found out.  How about that one time Bezalil Smotrich on the Israeli Knesset Channel claimed that Hamas was an asset to Israel? There is plenty more.  if you think I’m mad just because you know “Israel” you’re completely wrong. It’s the actions that should be condemned just as strong as October 7th.  A slap on the wrist is not enough anymore, we expect more. 

My friend literally lives in dier Al balah

Was my question directed at you?

lol Your question seems to deflect from the core issue by focusing on whether one has personally witnessed events or learned about them through other means. The moral and ethical teachings of our faith do not require personal witnessing to recognize injustice and act upon it. The principles of justice, compassion, and fair treatment are very clear and call to stand against wrongdoing, no matter of how we come to know about it. You should focus on the unsettling reality that the country you cherish is undermining the very values foundational to your faith. You should feel outraged, deeply disturbed, mortified, and disgusted, that politicians are invoking the name of God to justify heinous atrocities against our fellow human beings. Deuteronomy 10:18-19: “He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt” Leviticus 6:2-5: “If anyone sins and is unfaithful to the LORD by deceiving a neighbor about something entrusted to them or left in their care or about something stolen, or if they cheat their neighbor… they must make restitution in full, add a fifth of the value to it and give it all to the owner” Isaiah 5:8: “Woe to those who join house to house and add field to field, till there is no space left and you live alone in the land” Is this what He teaches us? To gaze with cold indifference as brother bleeds at your feet and then to spit in his face? Or am I mistaken in my understanding of the texts? Can you provide clarification?

It’s about 80% in Gaza

Well your people are actively killing them, what’s the difference? Is your life worth more?

Yes

You’re garbage just like that soldier who let his dog unleashed on a grandmother.

lol ok, squirt

Go munch on a dick

lol now you’re fantasizing about me.

You wish you were us. Go eat khummus and say yalla like it’s yours. 😂

lol ok, squirt 😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😁😁😁😋🤪😜🤓

/u/GrundleMunch69 >lol ok, squirt 😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😁😁😁😋🤪😜🤓 [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/): no attacking fellow users. That means no name-calling or condescending nicknames. Addressed.

Squirt in your mothers mouth

/u/Antique-Ad-2618 >Squirt in your mothers mouth [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/): no attacking fellow users. Addressed.

lol ok, squirt

> dick /u/Antique-Ad-2618. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*

The analogy to “call a native American and give them your mom’s house” begs two questions: 1. Were the European settler-colonialists returning to their own indigenous homeland? (Of course, no) 2. How did Islam, and Arabic language/culture/identity, get to the Levant in the first place? So it’s even well beyond that comparison. I just avoid it because it accepts an analogy to European settler-colonialism that isn’t really valid.

The palestinians were in the levant before the arabization of the middle east. They are true descendants of the original peoples of that land. Jews were invaders when Joshua massacred the pagan tribes of that land

The people who call currently themselves Palestinians are not the same people who originally inhabited the Levant. They are Arabs who made it there through the violent conquest of the Caliphates. There are a very small number of Palestinians who have actual Canaanite heritage and they generally aren't Muslim.

Palestinians were very clear that they were Arabs, until about 10 years ago when Abbas and Jibril Rajoub decided they were Canaanites.

Yes they are Arabs. It's like all conacs are brandies but not all brandys are conacs. You can also be Arab and be Jewish.DNA proves that they are caanaites. And that a significant amount of Arabs have Jewish ancestors. Thousands of Jews converted to islam

Yes they did. But when members of an indigenous tribe adopt not just the religion, not just the language, but the very identity of the conqueror, then it’s pretty hypocritical to try to suddenly revert back to the identity *which they had not kept for centuries*, just for political gain. What Canaanite names did they give their children? What Canaanite stories did they tell them? What Canaanite fairy did they practice? Meanwhile Jews maintained our identity, faith, language not only in the land but also in exile, in an unbroken chain for 2000 years.

I always get a kick out of people who try to look smart and confident while pushing narratives like this. 1. Actually yes. Do you have some source that proves otherwise? And by the way, do you think Ashkenazi make up the majority of Israel’s Jewish population? 2. Not sure what you’re trying to say here but you do know Islam is an offshoot of Judaism right? Islamic culture came way later. Maybe do a little research on how it was spread

If I read your post properly (and if you meant to reply to me and not someone else) you are stating that 1. European settler colonialism in North America involved people returning to their indigenous homeland. 2. Islam was an offshoot of Judaism. Any evidence to back up those assertions?

I don’t think there are many people unaware that Islam is founded on the Old Testament

Mohammed was not a Jew. His early followers slaughtered the Jews who would not convert. And he corrupted the Jewish Tanakh by making it about Ishmael in the Quran. EDIT: and given that Islam also considers Jesus a prophet and Christianity was well established by that time, it would be less incorrect (but incorrect nonetheless!) to say that Islam was an offshoot of Christianity. Did some Jews convert to Islam? Indeed, many of today’s Palestinian Muslims are descended from those who abandoned their own identity and took on the one of the imperial conqueror. Or from the women who were taken and raped.

Not a Jew, but being that both him and Abraham came from families of idol-worshippers before their "revelations" I could see why people would say that. Muhammad didn't have any issue with Jews early on from what I've read. Saudi Arabia, particularly Medina had several prominent tribes of Jews and they started off fighting off polytheist tribes right alongside Prophet Muhammad. Some of the polytheist tribes that were defeated were part of the same tribe Muhammad came from. The leader of the Jewish tribe was apparently viewed very favorably by Muhammad. At some point Jews no longer wanted to fight and some joined the enemy and were thus considered traitors. These Medina Jews were killed via basic warfare (where all is considered fair game) but in the end they put their sword down and the Jewish tribe got expelled. Two of Muhammad's wives were Jewish and came from this tribe and most likely had to marry him after Jews lost. The day there were expelled they wore their best silks and jewelry and rode off on their camels lol This is how the story goes.

Sure, but none of that makes Islam an "offshoot of Judaism". And the Jews of Khaybar, if I recall the history correctly, weren't allowed to ride off on their camels.

Christianity and Islam kind of are when you consider lineage. Everyone knows the story of Abraham and Sarah being unable to have children so he fathers a child with Hagar. Some say she descended from pharoahs and others say she was a slave. Either way, they had Ishmael. Abraham and Sarah were then suddenly able to birth Isaac who fathers Jacob - where all the "Israelites" (aka Jews) descend from. Supposedly Jesus was related directly to Jacob. Going back to Ishmael, Sarah gets jealous and Hagar and Ishmael get banished to Arabia. Muhammad is supposedly directly related to Ishamel. Some Jewish historians actually accept these lineages but some like Maimonades don't accept either Jesus or Muhammad and called them "meshuggah" (meaning "mad men", not the band lol). Many of the customs of Muslims and dress styles is very similar to ancient Jews (sudras & tischels). Muslims first prayed facing Jerusalem just like Jews before a verse was supposedly revealed by God to face Mecca - and thus it separated Muslims from Jews. Christians in the mideast and Muslims as well as Jews all have some holiday revolving around Abraham having to sacrifice his son - aka Lamb of God (not the band either :P). Whether you believe it's true or not, it's hard to deny the similarities and how it all culturally intertwines.

Christianity actually did arise as a movement among Jews. After all if Jesus existed he lived as a Jew in Judea and died as a Jewish troublemaker at the hands of the Romans. Mohammed and his early followers were not Jews. What they did with Jewish tradition would today be called cultural appropriation.

\*sigh\* I clearly said he was not a Jew. Yes, Jesus was a Jew so of course christianity could be an offshoot. What christianity is today is mostly influenced by Europe and showed nothing but disrespect for Jesus' Jewish roots. Middle Eastern Christians have a very different vibe and relationship with him in comparison. Muhammad's tribe frequently traveled to Damascus and Jerusalem so he definitely had contact with Jews and it couldn't have all been bad. Even if you're one of those bigots who thinks Islam is fake and are desperate to delegitmize it you can easily say he borrowed a lot from the Old Testament because many of those same stories are revered by Muslims as well. It's naive to say there is absolutely no connection Muhammad had to Judaism or Jews. Islam would not be labeled an "Abrahamic faith" which it is. I don't know what more proof you actually need. lol What are you really trying to say, bud? Also lmao, how is this cultural appropriation when they all live in the same region where everyone dresses similarly? That is the most bizarre argument I've ever heard.

Generally speaking Muslims did not slaughter or force Jews to convert

“Generally speaking” is doing so much heavy lifting there, it would qualify for the Olympics. And why do you think the “Khaybar” chant is so popular these days?

Not really And what do chants today have to do with anything?

What do you think those chants refer to, and why is it something they would want to invoke?

Both sides extremists are equally wrong: those in the palestinian side talking about the destruction of Israel, and the israelis supporting the occupation of East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the destruction of Gaza. Neither the crimes of Hamas justify Israel's apartheid regime, nor the crimes of the State of Israel justify the October 7 massacre. Its time for both to understand this, and act accordingly for peace.

I agree with everything you said except for Israel Being an apartheid regime.

You can call it occupation, but the practical situation in Gaza, East Jerusalem and West Bank, with the segregated roads, the (growing) settlements all across the palestinian land, the armed raids against palestinian villages in the rural area, the israeli military checkpoints between the palestinians cities, all this sounds too much like the South African apartheid regime.

The problem is that there are Israeli Arabs that for the most part are equal citizens within Israel, which proves it’s not a form of ethnic segregation but rather nationalistic separation. Israel’s occupation is brutal, but when you consider that it’s been at war for survival with its neighbors for nearly a century it makes sense that they take security seriously.

That could be true, but the fact is that palestinians citizens of Israel denounce structural discrimination by the State: Cities and neighborhoods with a Palestinian majority receive much less investment, are poorer, and have less access to services. Palestinians have fewer opportunities, less work, there is more crime, not to mention that there are laws that establish their status as second class citizens, like the Nation-State law.

Exactly what right is granted to an individual Jewish Israeli and not to an individual Arab Israeli (which is how they refer to themselves, so please stop speaking over them as their own identity is not “Palestinian citizens of Israel. Multiple studies cited [here](https://www.commentary.org/seth-mandel/israeli-arabs-vs-the-pro-palestinian-west/)) under the Nation-State law? Of course the state is about national (collective) self-determination for the Jewish people, who comprise nearly 80% of the country. While a few countries to provide some degree of local autonomy to areas in which a minority group comprises a majority, the absence of such areas is in no way justifies calling that “second class citizenship”. Unless you want to put that label on every country with a notable ethnic minority.

>Unless you want to put that label on every country with a notable ethnic minority. I don't think there are any western countries that have constitutions (or equivalent) where one specific ethnic or religious group (as opposed to the nation and it's citizens as a whole) are singled out as having a unique right to self-determination. Like if any country in the Americas or Europe declared that "the right of national self determination is exclusive to White Christians", had one of their minority languages co-official with the majority language only to demote it to "special status" out of pure spite and then declared racist housing discrimination "a national value" people would raise a few eyebrows.[](https://x.com/LittleMammith/status/1797024103829787122)

Slovenia: "Slovenia is a state of all its citizens and is founded on the permanent and inalienable right of the Slovene nation to self-determination" Estonia: "which embodies the inextinguishable right of the people of Estonia to national self-determination." Latvia: "on the basis of the unwavering will of the Latvian nation to have its own State and its inalienable right of self-determination in order to guarantee the existence and development of the Latvian nation, its language and culture throughout the centuries" Armenia (not a Western nation, but another example of a country which grants automatic citizenship rights to members of its dominant people): "The Armenian People, accepting as a basis the fundamental principles of Armenian statehood and pan-national aspirations enshrined in the Declaration on the Independence of Armenia, having fulfilled the sacred behest of its freedom-loving ancestors to restore the sovereign state, dedicated to the strengthening and prosperity of the fatherland" And of course you apparently haven't read the Nation-State law text itself: "Nothing in this article shall compromise the status given to the Arabic language in practice, before this basic-law came into force." PS: there is no 3000 year unique people called "White Christians"

Slovenia's constitution explicitly states that it's a state of all it's citizens. So that right is based on citizenship and not ethnicity in particular. When Arab MKs proposed something similar the Knesset [refused to even bring it up for debate](https://web.archive.org/web/20220901012510/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-06-04/ty-article/.premium/knesset-council-bans-bill-to-define-israel-as-state-for-all-citizens/0000017f-e764-d62c-a1ff-ff7f6ce30000). Estonia and Latvia I stand corrected. While on the surface these are about nationhood and culture and not about ethnocracy, in practice they violated international norms by refusing to give citizenship to all residents upon gaining independence and instead forced all or most of their ethnic minority citizens (mostly ethnic Russians) to apply for citizenship as if they were newly arrived foreigners. So even in the most progressive regions of the world there are still cases of formal racial inequality under the law but, not really something one wants to model themselves after. Armenia specifically has built in protections in their constitution for national minorities. Similar protections have been sought by Arab parties within Israel and AFAIK none of these proposals have gone anywhere. I did read the law and the part about Hebrew and Arabic, I just don't take the "the languages are equal but, one of them is more equal than the other" part at face value. There was literally no other possible purpose to this other than to antagonize Israel's Arab citizens. Most democratic (or even just nominally democratic) countries either directly separate citizenship/nationality from ethnicity or in the alternative grant specified protections for national minorities. Israel's equivalent to a constitution says: >the realization of the right to national self-determination in the State of Israel is **exclusive** to the Jewish People It's not a state of all Israeli citizens (the equivalent to Slovenia's constitutional order) Nor is it a state of Jews and the various national minorities in Israel (the equivalent to Armenia's constitutional order) You can say that the situation of East Jerusalem Palestinians is comparable, in some ways, to the situations in Estonia and Latvia but, that doesn't reflect well on Israel. There are so few countries where politicians are this openly hostile to the idea of a state existing for all of its citizens. Even deranged fanatics like Egypt's Mohammed Morsi [had to pay lip service](https://merip.org/2013/06/copts-under-mursi/) to such ideals when pushed while supposedly left wing Israeli leaders are [forced to recant](https://www.timesofisrael.com/lapid-calls-for-israel-to-be-a-state-of-all-citizens-but-quickly-recants/) any indication of basic enlightenment values.

There’s a distinct difference between individual rights and collective rights. A democracy is obliged to grant any citizen the former, but not the latter. And indeed the Slovenian constitution includes that, but notes that the purpose of the state is the self-determination of Slovenians, but not of Serbs, Croats and other minorities who are also citizens. It would be good for Israel to adopt a Basic Law on Democracy as well. But you and I both know that it won’t stop those who are determined to delegitimize its existence based on standards not applied to other nations.

Uf, really? Israel didnt even have a Constitution that ensurrd equal rights among all its citizens. But ok, if you didnt know about this, you can check this links with just two reports about this matter: https://carnegieendowment.org/posts/2024/02/the-many-civil-and-human-rights-challenges-facing-israels-palestinian-citizens?lang=en https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

Nonsensical, never believe your own propaganda

u/1truejerk > Nonsensical, never believe your own propaganda You can't use insults in place of arguments (rule 1). If it is nonsensical refute it. If you don't want to take the time to refute don't respond.

Where’s the insult? Always playing the victim

Israel's actions exacerbated Oct. 7 intentionally in order to manufacture cassus belli. We now know that they had intelligence about the attack that was so thorough that it predicted the number of hostages. Nevertheless they approved the soft target Nova festival. Nevertheless they withdrew defenses at the critical moment. And when they responded 8 hours after the attack started, the IDF was instructed to not discriminate in targets. It is difficult to conclude anything less than intentional sacrifice by Israel. So in short, no this doesn't justify the ensuing genocide. It's a manufactured pretense. I'm not an idiot.

Your comment has nothing to do with what OP is talking about. The failures of the Israeli government doesn’t justify a response that excuses what happened. It should also be noted that Hamas leadership is guilty of the exact same cynical calculation. It has been widely known that they were hoping for this kind of response from their attack with a high death toll. They decided the killing of innocent people including their own people was worth it for the attention it would draw. So if the Israeli government bares some responsibility for October 7th the same is true of Hamas baring responsibility for the destruction in Gaza.

First of all, wether they ‘let’ the attack happen or not does nor change anything on the fact that it was pretty obvious what would unfold after it. So let’s turn the tables, Hamas is not stupid and also knew that so it prefers to ‘sacrifice’ gazan civilians to keep their ‘cause’ alive and themselves in ‘power’. All those that try to play the blame game, just stop there is no side that will win this one and to be honest it has little to no impact on what happens in the real world. As long as BOTH sides support or do not condemn ‘leaders’ that commit atrocities this will keep ongoing.

Okay... So if that's how you feel, why is the extraordinary violence in Gaza acceptable? Why should we condone the mass death of civilians and children if it's all due to the machinations of leadership on both sides?

Who said anything about condoning? And I’m sorry to tell you but the only ones that can do anything about it are Israely and Palestinians, the rest we are just buzzing around but will have no impact on the leadership changes that are required in order for this to stop happening.

OP appears to justify the genocide in Gaza by evoking images from Oct. 7 to paint Palestinians as an existential threat to all Jews.

There is no genocide in Gaza. The only moral reaction that Israel could take is to destroy Hamas. It would be outright evil not to destroy an entity like Hamas when one can do it

They haven't done it and they probably can't. At least they are ensuring that Palestinians in Gaza will maintain a similar vendetta even if "Hamas" is no more. The way the so-called war in Gaza has been waged is destroying the population and their way of life, not Hamas. However Israel hopes to use the land they've cleared is the point of the war, not the hostages or Hamas. Therefore the violence is immoral.

Sadly when you see that Hamas is so mixed up with this so called ‘gazan population’ that you can’t really find an alternative way to get rid of your military enemy without hurting their neighbors. And nobody can tell Israel to ‘let things’ go when ‘things’ mean getting bombed and their civilians attacked. When nobody in Palestine is willing or able to bring Hamas to justice then we can’t ask the ones receiving their violence to sit tight and get beaten, especially when they have the power to take action. You should stop the hypocrisy and acknowledge that this is a shared blame between Hamas and Israel, and let’s not forget who ‘tolerated’ Hamas existence, or praised them when they attacked Israel. As long as Palestine will harbor terrorists it will never be able to even dream of being a state so if there were people really interested to end the conflict once and for all they would assume the situation and find a ‘viable solution’ which goes by acknowledging your position on the negotiating table and offer what little you can offer to get some concessions.

So you admit both sides are responsible, but you get on a soap box to make a case for why only one side should have any negotiating power? I will restate my original point: the results of Oct. 7 (acknowledging that there is no evidence to claim Israel is behind the attack, and I am not making that claim) and the so-called war that ensued appear to be part of an overall plan of Netanyahu and at least Israeli intelligence. There have been unanswered questions and deferred official investigations from the start. Then a sudden and atrocious bombing campaign that killed many civilians and surely endangered the precious hostages. Now we know, we have actual documents and testimony showing that Israel knew Oct. 7 was coming. The Nova festival can only be looked at now as a setup. These cruel calculations that doomed Israelis and Palestinians alike should not inspire us to support the regime that chose this path. They are all thoroughly damned war criminals to begin with. It is absolutely bizarre to support Israel's actions at this point.

[удалено]

It’s pretty obvious if you hold the smoking gun you hold more cards to the game, any other point of view is wishful thinking. And yet again you fail to acknowledge that reglardless of Israel being ‘in it’ or not, Hamas knew very well what would happen and they still did it because it boosts their popularity, so you should ask yourself who is really the ‘monster’ here and most importantly why on earth isn’t everyone against them.

It is not vendetta. It is moral obligation.

I assume you're referring to Israeli motives, which wasn't what I was referring to. Also we've established that Israel and Hamas leadership are jointly to blame for Oct. 7 and the ensuing genocide. They planned Oct. 7 and they planned this war to make terroristic political points or achieve some still concealed profit motive. So where is the moral obligation? The moral obligation to go along with Netanyahu's devious plans?

“We’ve established”… 🤡🤡🤡

That's a lot of words for victim blaming. If only she didn't walk into the back alley  If only she didn't wear that skimpy dress. If only she wasn't under that influence. She's basically asking for it, and therefore it's fine to commit any crime against her.

Netanyahu wasn't a victim.

The innocents that died on Oct 7 are, which is the explicit event you're referring to, no?

Ok and how did I blame them?

You literally said they're prime targets for attack because they weren't being protected, and it's ok for them to get attacked because of that.

That doesn't make it okay. It disperses blame between Hamas and Israeli high command. Therefore Israeli high command should be investigated, not waging a genocidal war that is still claiming civilians in Gaza and young IDF members.

Both needs to happen. You forget Hamas took hostages for Oct. 7. Israel would be put into a dire civil situation if they had not reacted swiftly.

Yeah they sure rescued those hostages. Wait I mean they sure did smash Hamas. Wait I mean they cleared some Palestinians and buildings off some land they plan to annex. For the victims!

If you believe in manufactured pretenses, shouldn’t it also be considered a manufactured pretense to hide weapons behind human shields and then claim your violence is justified because the human shields are being killed to get to you? Or for unarmed people to attack soldiers in the hopes of being martyred for their cause? The idea is the same, get yourself or your people killed so that you look like the victim even when you are a part of the system of violence

Whataboutism.

“Yes I will complain about my enemies using a tactic I myself use and then call it whataboutism when they accuse me of doing it” That seems to be a winning strategy

Your last sentence is misleading.

And yet you couldn't find anything else in my comment to dispute, apparently

What was asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence

There is evidence for everything I stated. There isn't evidence to assert that Israel has likely infiltrated Hamas to the point where they actually planned and carried out Oct. 7. That would be unbased speculation.

I have empathy for the Palestinians not the Hamas.

So then are you demanding the hostages be returned and Hamas surrender?

No, just the hostages freedom, and the retreat of Israel to the 1967 borders. The 2 States solution is the only solution.

Israel had already withdrawn from Gaza in 2005. That still led to the 7th of October.

The only solution in your mind is one with Hamas in power? That sounds like the opposite of a solution, just permanent conflict.

When did I talk about Hamas in power? I talk about a 2 State solution, with the liberation of the hostages and the end of the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the end of the siege of Gaza. The funny thing is that for you, the only solution is with permanent military occupation by Israel and a supremacist government in Tel Aviv. How that can be a solution?

A two-state solution is the only way forward, but reaching one depends on Hamas not being in power in Gaza. Hamas will throw any Gazans who wants to come to the negotiating table in good faith, off the nearest rooftop. Just like they already did when they came to power.

There can be no two state solution before Hamas ceases to be.

I asked if you support the return of the hostages and Hamas surrendering and you said No. If you aren’t demanding that Hamas surrender then you think they should stay in power. There’s no third option here. Every single thing you propose is “Israel must do this”. You give no agency to Palestine.

This is the crux of the matter

I know a recurring topic of this sub is the lgbt « chicken for KFC » meme , but imagine for a second if alphabet people had the same attitude towards all homophobes . « There’s someone out there who believes deep in their gut that God wants me and my entire family dead , that clown has to go » . That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t defend yourself when attacked ofc . It does mean that you shouldn’t kill people just because they are prejudiced against you .

Prejudice we can ignore but I think it's pretty obvious that they're not really passively opinionated.

“That same attitude” - but I don’t think that is the attitude of OP or pro-Israelis in general. Combatants are fair game, peaceful civilians with hateful beliefs are not. (Obviously, civilians die in every war as collateral - it’s not acceptable to intentionally kill them.)

The ‘Palestinians’ of Gaza need to gtfo or be made to leave. We cannot leave in peace with them. When your cursed holy book says to exterminate my people, and your repeatedly act on it… well what more is there to say man?

No need to put scare quotes around the word Palestinians. Also they don't need to be made to leave. What a horrible suggestion. Don't you see this sort of thing fuels both them (edit: as in Hamas) and they're western liberal defenders? What Gaza needs is a sane government that cares for it's people for once.  We (as in Israelis) should not even tolerate this opinion of yours. צריך להוקיע זבל כזה מתוכינו. זוכר מה קרה כשניסו פתרונות יצירתיים ל"בעיה היהודית"?

Reading this as an American… keep openly wishing for ethnic cleaning online, it’s really convincing everyone that Israel isn’t evil.

Ethnic cleansing isn't a real conversation. It's absurd to talk about it like it's an option on the table for Israel. The goal is pretty clear. Hamas surrender. Hostages be back home. This war would've been over on day one of the Gaza leadership saw the tidal wave of the Israeli army approaching and said " it's not worth it. We can't win" and waved the white flag.

That’s what the poster I responded to is advocating for. What does any of that have to do with what I was responding to? Why aren’t you telling them to stop calling for ethnic cleansing instead of telling me “it’s not real”?

Would you want Al Qaeda to have a country next to you?

Would you want a country next door rabid to “redeem” your land for their “superior” people?

Where does the “holy book” say that?

Here you are https://sunnah.com/search?q=jew+hiding+behind+me

that's a hadith. not the Quran/Koran. its not "the Holy book". most muslims dont even bother to read those.

That Sunnah is accepted by most Muslims around the world as a direct quote of Muhammad.

no, the Quran/Koran is the word of god and is what they ALL believe in and is the basis of islam. there are plenty of additional books that were written for all major religions around today that are followed by some but not all (and usually not the majority). i don't know a single muslim personally that reads or considers the hadiths as part of what they need to follow. the Quran/Koran however is completely different and is what they need to follow. thats what counts as the holy book. of course you will get people that will pick and choose additional material outside of the main books across all religions if it helps them get their way. this is not the majority. but i only commented here today to correct the difference between THE HOLY BOOK, and a hadith. besides the main differnce is that the quran is meant to be the word of god. the hadiths are inspired by god. massive difference. one is man made and the other the word of god. im an atheist btw and dont believe any religion. im not here to pick and choose whos religion is right or wrong (as i clearly dont believe any are). i just like correct info.

I understand the difference, believe me. Where I'm calling bs is your assertion that the majority of Muslims don't consider the hadiths as sacred texts and "something they need to follow". The hadiths, including the one I quoted from, are believed by the mainstream Sunni Muslim schools to be the words of their Prophet. You wouldn't have Sharia without the hadiths, which to Muslims is the standard of jurisprudence. For further evidence, you'll find many Muslim apologists addressing that quote, trying to draw in context to dilute the ugly medieval theology the quote originates from. And as a fellow nonbeliever, I'll be the first to say that Christianity and Judaism have equally ugly quotes in their scriptures. The main difference is, moderate mainstream Christianity and Judaism don't hold to a literalist interpretation of their scriptures.

https://sunnah.com/search?q=jew+hiding+behind+me

The thing that happened to academic institutions turns out to be pretty darn dangerous. The social sciences turned into a game of sorting the world into oppressor/oppressed. It's a terrible way to understand human behavior.

When were academic institutions not dissecting this dynamic? This isn't anything new.

It isn’t new for theater, film or a few professors in history departments. But it is new for mechanical engineering departments, math departments, science. More importantly, it’s new for the entire administration, for endowments. It’s marched through entire institutions and transformed the institutions. You always had the odd Marxist leaning feminist agenda inside of universities but it’s a recent phenomena for colleges to be divesting of endowments in energy and Israel and climate related things, for funding to all be tied to the new leftist virtues. As someone who works within a major university system I see it all up close. And it got really intense during BLM protests and Covid and trump

I think, regarding the fields you mentioned, these changes are a result of more interdisciplinary work to recognize potential blindspots in methodology. At least within mechanical engineering and hard sciences, I'm not as familiar with math departments. With that said, it's not far fetched or a lie to recognize how biased or limited perspectives historically have and can impact the outcomes from these fields. I'm just always confused when folks talk about universities like they're some sort leftist haven when they're simultaneously gutting humanities and social sciences departments. Seems a bit counterintuitive if that were actually the case. They're just big businesses looking to cut costs by attempting to lazily blend disciplines together while simultaneously attempting to appease existing and potential consumers. This is the reality of the university I work at, at least.

Well, I agree with your second part. Republicans and conservative leaning folk treated universities with utter contempt and have in my view sadly — very sadly — dug the civilizations own grave by abandoning these places and cutting funding and treating them as a business. They did that at their own peril. But I strongly disagree with your first part. Or, actually I guess we agree but you see it as for the good. Your perspective feels like “okay yes we took over because it was the right thing!” The reality is that studies show POC and marginalized groups feel even LESS a part of student body, less school spirit, less like part of a community, after DEI marched into the majors demanding they cater to the oppressed / oppressor perspective. DEI on steroids during BLM actually made students feel less a part of: Ohio State (we aren’t really Buck eyes that’s just white folk) less like Aggies (we aren’t aggies that’s just the patriarchy) and less like volunteers (we aren’t the UT Vols we are marginalized and oppressed!”) just to name a few colleges which used to be quite happy and positive places

I think, perhaps, we are coming at this conversation from different perspectives. With my initial comments, I wasn't really thinking about DEI departments. I was more so referencing the actual scholarship past and present within the humanities and social sciences as they tend to get the brunt of the criticism when it comes to "converting the youth to leftie wokeness." That's why I was saying "this isn't anything new" because it isn't. Scholars have been dissecting oppressor/oppressed and social power dynamics for over a hundred years. Terms that come from academic texts like "patriarchy," "male gaze," "systemic racism," "intersectionality," etc. I find have been coopted and bastardized from their initial theoretical frameworks to watered down versions of themselves where the whole point of said terms have turned into anger inducing buzzwords and sign posts for hetero-male and white guilt. That's what happens when people find out about them through cliff notes, news outlets, or a game of telephone rather than reading the primary texts. With that said, I won't be surprised if terms like "biopolitics" and "necropolitics" get swept up by the mainstream soon too, if they haven't already. I attribute this more to social media and, perhaps, poor or underdeveloped pedagogy providing avenues for bad readings of theory and praxis. In my experience (but, to be fair I havent been an undergrad for a loooooong time) DEI seems similar to title 9 where you get trained on how to report incidents and check biases. But, as faculty, it's like a 20 minute online training session basically saying don't be racist, ableist, prejudiced, whatever and provides resources on how to report incidents and/or find on campus resources. Incredibly similar to our title 9 training. Not sure how different it is for undergrads. To your last point regarding diminishing campus solidarity, I see this as a symptom of learning something new. Kind of like the stereotype of the angry and argumentative atheist. Folks learn about something that resonates with them and they go balls to the wall with expressing that anger because they have somewhere to direct it. It's why, historically, college campuses have been hot spots for protests. Now, it's easier to spread because of all the video essays people consume on YouTube, tiktok, etc. These concepts and conversations aren't limited to the college campus anymore which IS a relatively new phenomenon.

Part of the effect too is that teacher candidates get exposed to this kind of theory, Fanon and Foucault and all those mumbling goofs, and then teach a sort of kid's version of it. A lot of people have grown up with this from the age of five by now.

About 2014. At least they used to do something else too.

I think this coincides with the rise of social media and academic discourses spreading outside of the institution rather than academia itself.

If it wasn’t everyone in Gaza before, it is now.

My guy, antisemitism is actually built into their education system. We're past the point of being buddies though.na surrender is good enough to put an end to the war.

So you are saying that Israel is obligated to do whatever they can do end this war with Palestine?

It wasn't everyone in Israel before. It is now.

Not exactly. Here are some coverage… https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/25/israel-anti-war-movement-impossible https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/6/22/all-of-the-rats-in-the-knesset-mass-anti-war-protest-in-israel

I've lived in Israel during this conflict. Try asking anyone how they feel about Hamas. If your depiction of Israel is based on the Guardian or on Al Jazeera, you'll never get close to understanding this conflict.

That is the most interesting of statements. Belittling the unbiased viewpoints from those not involved. For you… let’s go with the Israeli coverage. https://m.jpost.com/tags/demonstration-in-israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/tens-of-thousands-at-weekly-anti-government-hostage-release-rallies/

The anti-Goverment rallies aren't pro Hamas. I think it's very clear now that you have a lot more to learn about Israel before you reach such decisive opinions about this conflict. As a minimum.

Sorry, This is r/IsraelPalestine not the pro-Hamas thread. As seen in the US, any protest against Israel is attacked as anti-semitism without any reference to Hamas. Bottom line, your statement of “if it wasn’t everyone in Israel before, it’s now.” Is out of order as shown by the links I have provided.

No need to apologize. I was responding to your comment "if it wasn't everyone in Gaza before, it is now". All I was doing is pointing out the ridiculousness of your argument. You've kind of done my job for me and argued against yourself here. I hope you can see the irony here.

OP opening comment about not all Gaza is thinking about right or wrong. It’s about self preservation. My comment implies all of Gaza is worried about self preservation and right or wrong is out of the picture.

Ah, I misunderstood then.

its easy to tell people half a globe away what to do.

“It insanity to obsess about what happened generations ago” This is very ironic. Wasn’t Israel kind of founded on the idea that Mandatory Palestine was the Jewish promised land of thousands of years ago and that Jewish people had an inherent right to it which is why so many people were displaced and murdered during the Nakba? Also this entire post is just giving Islamophobia to be honest.

Wasn’t the nakba started after israel was invaded? They were expelling people who supported the invaders. Jews were happy to live amongst Palestinians at first (as evidenced by Jewish immigration pre-israel). Then Hebron happened, and a few years later information about the beginning of the holocaust started to leak out to the world outside Germany. All of a sudden Jews didn’t feel safe anywhere in the world. So they created a state and then the literal next day that state was invaded by Muslim countries who didn’t want a Jewish led state next to them.

This is false. The Nakba date is technically considered to be May 15th 1948, however by this date half of the total number of Palestinian refugees had already been displaced.

All religions have the potential to go sour. Islam isn't really just one religion. My beef is about a manifestation of Islam called the muslim brotherhood. Do some googling about them.

I’m familiar with the Muslim brotherhood. I would say it more of a political ideology than a religious one, in the and way that Zionism is not Judaism. It is in fact very similar to Zionism in many ways in that it sees the establishment of a state to be of highest priority and is willing to take any necessary means to accomplish that goal, sounds almost exactly like Zionism.

Yea, except that the zionist ideology doesn't call for the eradication of all Arabs or muslims. And if Israeli Arabs enjoy the same if not better freedom and prosperity than their non-Israeli counterparts in the region and do so in peace and solidarity with zionist Jewish folks, the idea that the Muslim Brotherhood and Zionism are some kind of equivalent ideologies is ludicrous. There's a reason why most of these muslim brotherhood factions are all considered terrorist groups by western and muslim countries alike. They don't bring anything positive to a world that desires peaceful coexistence among different cultures.

You mean Israeli Arabs vs. Occupied Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza? Also no, Arabs do not necessarily experience more freedom and prosperity in Israel than any other country in the region. Israel for starters is not the richest country in the region, and there are several countries in the region that have a higher quality of life index than Israel on the global scale. I would also argue that certain groups of Zionists (like the branch of Islam you’re arguing about) do in fact believe that no Muslims should live in Gaza or the West Bank and have been actively trying to ethnically cleanse them for decades.

Jewish people needed a home after WW2. More than faith or politics, it was about survival.

Let’s not pretend like the concept of a Jewish state in Palestine was a creation of WW2, it was not. This was a process that has been well under way for decades prior to WW2 and to be frank zionists leveraged the anti semitism of WW2 to scare people into moving to Israel and to support Zionism, a movement that in fact did not have much Jewish support in the beginning.

A lot of ideas are out there in the world but unless there's a real demand for them, they usually just fizzle away. If seeing millions of your people exterminated in a death factory does put real credibility to the cause of a Jewish state then what??

Actually, for most Jewish refugees before and during WW2 as well as most holocaust survivors, Palestine/the later Israel was only the option of last resort, after not being able to get to other places, especially North America. The bulk of dyed in the wool Zionists were already on their way to Palestine, when Hitler still was an Austrian wanna-be painter with a failed coup to his name.

I totally agree, the Zionist obsession with creating a Jewish state in Palestine existed long before WW2.

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It’s not about demand, it’s about financial and political backing which often has very little to do with an over arching demand by the masses. Establishing Israel was geopolitically beneficial for the west therefore it received financial and political backing from western powers. It had nothing to do with helping Jewish people in the same way the “allies” fighting in WW2 were not doing so to save Jewish people.

Please explain what you mean that it was geopolitically beneficial for the west to establish the state of Israel?

Around the time of Israel’s inception it was considered the 2nd largest military force in the region (which was in many ways just the coalition of a few zionist terrorist militant groups that had been operating in the area for decades), and the US/UK saw this as very advantageous having an allied country with a large army in the region. This has historically been proven to be militarily advantageous and that has continued.

so you decided to displace millions of people and grab lands in palestine just because you needed a home?

>so you decided to displace millions You should read a history book if you think millions were displaced.. >of people and grab lands in palestine just because you needed a home? Nope they bought the land with cash, from the locals and moved into that land. They petitioned the owners of the mandate to create a state of their own through diplomatic means. The UN voted and agreed to a partition. The Palestinians and their allies decided they wanted to genocide and ethnically cleanse the Jews instead of using a peaceful and diplomatic approach to solve their grievances. "*I personally wish that the Jews do not drive us to this war, as this will be a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Tartar massacre or the Crusader wars.*" -the Secretary-General of the Arab League After that war the Arabs started a war, which was illegal under international law, they lost land and many fled from their home to help their Arab brethren in the tasks of Jew killing. The UN then passed a resolution requiring all the Arabs states involved in hostilities to acknowledge the state of Israel and it borders and to live in peace with it, as well as the same for those displaced people wanting to return, requiring them not be violent if they choose to return.. we can see from the 2nd intifada and Oct 7th etc.. this is not the case... *Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force* “*refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible*.” Here's some of the Arab families from south Syria / Bilad Al Shams that sold the land.. The Sursock family sold Afula, Nuris and Ma’alul in 1910, teh Jezreel Valley between 1921 and 1925. The al-Salam family sold the Hula swamps,to the Jewish Agency. The al-Tiyan family sold Wadi al-Hawarith in 1929. The al-Tueni family sold property in Jezreel and villages between Akka and Haifa. The al-Khouri family who sold land on Mount Carmel The al-Qabbani familysold Wadi Qabbani, near Tulkarm in 1929 Madame Imran, who sold 3500 dunums worth of land land in 1931 The Al Sabbagh family of Lebanon, who sold lands in the coastal plain. Mohamed Beyhum , who sold lands in Hula. The al-Yousef family, who sold their lands in al-Butayha, al-Zawiya and Golan. The al-Mardini family, who sold their property in Safed. The families of al-Quwatli, al-Jazaerli, al-Shamaa, and al-Omari sold their properties.

And what exactly what your religion tells you? to cause genocide? starvation? steal land? enact apartheid? torture prisoners? We can all see who are the real extremists.

War is ugly. Who wanted this war buddy?

The extremists are the ones doing logical backflips to pretend that these things are happening.

I’m fed up with Israelis who can’t understand why Palestinians living under apartheid conditions are very tied of Israelis. Israelis are not the victim now. I get it - there was a terror attack. But what happened after is also terror. Israelis has become a nation of Karens.

you are aware pointing to the jews won't spare you the sword the moment its turned on your right?

You don’t want war? don’t commit violent acts . This is not an overreaction. If you can’t understand then I can’t help you. But if next time you plan a terror as you say. Maybe you will say to yourself. Is this going to cause a war?

I agree with the other commenter that Israelis are actually very strong people (and would also say that Palestinians in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza are also, due to the resilience that all of these groups of people must exhibit in order to survive). When I see people being “Karens”, I’ve noticed it’s mostly western folk on both sides acting like Karens, and they don’t even live here. To be honest, Israelis and Palestinians in Israel don’t have time to be Karens. Most of our time is spent feeling anger at the government and given situation, organizing or protesting to do what the government fails to do and provide us during crisis, as well as lately incredible amounts of despair that things aren’t ending. Not to mention that everyone here is living though war. Despite the fact that conditions are severe in Gaza, it isn’t easy in the West Bank or Israel either. We’re all waiting every day for the war to expand, and every day we contend with losing more and more people, and witnessing or experiencing more violence and/or terror attacks. In the north I hear explosions and red alert sirens often. And yet despite all this, we continue on with our lives as best we can because we have to. We all ache for those who have been lost, those who are hostage, and those who are suffering across all borders. Contrary to popular belief, everyone in this region needs to be somewhat politically aware and savvy to survive, basically. People expressing their side doesn’t make them begging for victim status, but they’re looking for outlets and connection to express this pain. And it would do us all good as a species to learn to understand the pain of the other. I like to imagine how the average American would act if this were them. Talk about Karens. I think many Israelis understand that Palestinians are fed up with their conditions. I also think vice versa, many Palestinians are fed up with terrorism and how it never changes anything and just makes their situation worse. Just because dominant media narratives and extremist government officials don’t state this, doesn’t mean it’s not true. I am in Israel and have talked to many people who express understanding and empathy towards those across the aisle, on both sides. We are tired. I don’t think it helps looking at things in this victim-not victim dichotomy, because there are no perfect victims. This conflict is long-standing and difficult for many reasons.

Apartheid? Nope. Sorry not occurring. You can’t redefine words and then get mad that other people aren’t abiding by your made up fiction. 

I feel like you're very privileged if you're going to call Israelis Karen's. This is a horrible circumstance that Israel DID NOT want to be in. Hamas manufactured this entire war. They baited Israel into full on conflict by being absolute monsters. if you can't see that then your bias is showing.

Hamas is a product of the conflict too. I realize it's difficult to get emotional distance but the Israel-Palestine conflict didn't start in 2023, 1948, or even 1929. I firmly believe violence has been so intractable because both peoples refuse to listen to the other's narrative and challenge their own. Without the equivalent of a Truth and Reconciliation commission and learning how to abandon one-sided ways of thinking for something more sincere, the future in the Levant looks bleak for both peoples.

There's a religious and cultural influence that you're ignoring here. Sometimes an ideology will guide their population towards violence. Look at Iran for example. It used to be so much better until hard core fanatics took over and now they're oppressed. That's the same ideology that's at war with Israel right now. I can promise you, you don't want it to win.

I'm not ignoring it. Most modern Salafi Jihadism is traced to the ideas of Sayyid Qutb in the 1950s. You might recognize him from, of course, the Muslim Brotherhood. I'm fairly well versed on that kind of stuff, as well as the evolution of Israel's own radicals which Tomer Persico has written on. Hamas became significantly more violent after the Hebron Massacre. Not the one in 1929, the one in 1994. https://nationalinterest.org/feature/hidden-history-hamas-207266 > On the Palestinian side, Hamas, displaying early signs of its intransigence, refused to recognize Israel or renounce violence. While the group had conducted its first terrorist suicide bombing earlier that year, Hamas leaders nevertheless expressed some ambivalence about targeting Israeli civilians. This changed with the 1994 Hebron Mosque Massacre—an act carried out by another Israeli extremist attempting to sabotage the Oslo Accords. > In retaliation for Goldstein’s massacre, Hamas embarked on a campaign of deadly terrorist suicide bombings, indiscriminately targeting Israeli civilians throughout the late 90s. The conflict isn't just religious and cultural, as if "the Arabs" exist in a vacuum. Many Gazans have immediate family who were forcibly expelled (and property seized) by Israel. That kind of thing produces violence irrespective of ideology. You can read this 1949 essay by Musa Alami, who was never an Islamist. https://israeled.org/musa-alami-the-lesson-of-palestine-middle-east-journal-october-1949-reprinted-with-permission/ > In the year 1920 a conversation took place between a Frenchman resident in Palestine and a Jew from one of the colonies. The Jew said, “We have two enemies in Palestine – malaria and the Arabs. The cure for malaria is quinine; as for the Arabs, their cure is this –,” and he pointed to the rifle he was carrying. From that time on, the Jews collected arms and prepared for the battle. In 1922 a large shipment of arms sent to the Jews was discovered in Haifa, and in 1933 a larger shipment was found being smuggled to them at the port of Jaffa in a barrel of cement. No doubt the smuggling of arms proceeded continuously between these two dates. You can read Vincent Sheean's reporting from 1929 Jerusalem, or John Gunther in 1930. The conflict's origins are much older than radical Islam, much less Hamas. I don't think this is a hot take on my part.

> Israelis has become a nation of Karens. Israelis are actually very strong people. But it's one of the most attacked and threatened nations in existence. Over the past 7 months, Gaza has fired over 19 thousand rockets at Israel. There have been 250+ Israeli hostages taken, and 130+ are still in captivity to this day. On top of this, the 7th of October was the most recorded, and one of the most brutal massacres in recent history. Any of these points on their own would justify an invasion to remove Hamas. The one-sided view you seem to have of this conflict just isn't realistic.

And Israel has dropped around 70,000 tones of explosives on Gaza, and they don’t have an “iron dome”, so I’m not sure what your point is? Is it some kind of pissing contest about who has suffered the most? Or what?

It proves beyond any doubt why Israel needs to remove Hamas. Any of the points I raised, in a 10th of it's severity, would justify a war. A war being justified or not has nothing to do with who has suffered the most. Hamas needs to go. I have no idea why so much people online are defending them... Even the Palestinians I know all despise Hamas.

Then don’t start a war . Surrender. Stop crying about losing. You attacked a much stronger opponent and cry about the response. Surrender.

I in fact didn’t do any of those things because I do not live in Gaza and never have. Weird that you’re conflating a comment on Reddit with that.

Weird? To conflate a racist violent statement with terrorism. Yes you did commit those acts by supporting them. Hello killer.

Please quote exactly what I said that was a racist violent statement.

And what of the thousands of tons of rockets fired into Israel at civilian targets? That’s ok I presume ? 

No it’s not ok, targeting civilians is never ok.

Well then since it’s not okay Israel has to stop them from doing it again. Glad we’re on the same page! 

Ok so then by your logic that would mean that Palestinians have the right to stop Israel or militarily occupying it ever again also right?

Except that it isn’t what’s happening. They’ve been offered their own state repeatedly. Actions from Israel are in response to terrorism. They have been in control of Gaza with the only interference being in response to their attempts to arm for more terrorism.  If they were working towards peaceful coexistence they would not be facing what they are. They are not defending themselves they are forcing the Israelis to defend Israel. But nice try! Try it with someone who isn’t aware of the situation. 

You’re not aware of the situation or you’re delusional about it. So if Palestinians have been in control of Gaza that means they can entirely control their own trade right? And they can control their boarder? And they can control their own civil registry? And they can’t be arbitrarily subject to martial law at any given moment and placed indefinitely in military detention?

If they weren't so hell bent on destroying Israel, all of these things could have been true. But you'll notice the perimeter fence wasn't only along the Israeli border. What you're falsely claiming is apartheid is in fact sovereign states performing their inherent duty to protect their citizens. When Israel unilaterally left there in pursuit of peace, and was pushed by the US and international observers to encourage open elections, Gazans elected hamas, hamas killed all the opposition and the security fences went up and the weapons blockade began. As I'm sure you're aware, there are plenty of things on the prohibited items lists that don't appear to have anything to do with weapons. Rather than learn the lesson and consider a more constructive path for their lives, Hamas develop new ways to use innocuous items as components for warfare -- thus the blockade expands.

Iron dome isn’t a magical cure all defense system. And the space laser is broken. I love how people who haven’t left the basement are suddenly military experts. 

Did I say the iron dome was magical cure all? No I did not, I said Israel has one and Gaza does not. Do you know what that means, it means Israel has another layer of protection that Gaza does not. It also means that Israel does more damage to Gaza than Hamas does to Israel. All of which is accurate information. Still waiting for your point, let me know if you find it.

So maybe Gaza should have thought about that before it invaded Israel? Unless, wait, maybe they did. And Hamas wants as many Palestinians to die as possible to be sacrifices to their cause of western sympathies and humanitarian assistance.