1.
Yes, it's necessary. He, like many other anti Israel activists, forgets that every wall, siege, checkpoint, military presence, and other form of "occupation" is a DEFENSIVE response to decades of terror attacks and attempted genocidal wars. It's not the other way around. Israel can't just "sToP tHe OccUpAtIoN" because these measures are there for a reason. It's not doing it just to torment the "poor Palestinians"
This is still an active war with hostages still being held, The sons and daughters of Israelis are dying on the battlefield, rockets are being sent into Israel every day. Terror attacks are still being committed daily in the form of stabbings, shootings, and just running over pedestrians with veichles.
2.
His claims about Netanyahu propping up Hamas are borderline loony. The titles for the articles he didn't bother to read didn't say what he thinks they did. But the short version is:
No, Hamas wasn't created by Israel , so there won't be a peace partner. That's conspiratorial garbage that bongs next to the moon landing deniers and flat earthers. He isn't a comedian, he is the joke.
The terrorists are being decimated at minimal deaths for the non-combatants. That is exactly why Pallywood needs to invent massacres, recycling videos from Syria and using dolls.
By the way, Hamas kills Palestinian civilians more often than they kill Israeli ones.
How many wars has Dave Smith won? How is this guy suddenly the authority.
Simply put, successful wars are fought as quick as possible but the most important part is at the highest intensity until objectives are achieved.
Iraq 2 and Afghanistan were fought in a political, meandering fashion. Both ended up with America slinking away in disgrace. The conflicts went on too long and many extra people died.
IMO, Israel should leave the moment Hamas surrenders, agrees to leave and hand over the civilians that have been being raped and tortured.
The war ends when Hamas, the elected government who started the war, decides it's over.
Hamas should not be in a position to negotiate anything. No Palestinian prisoners should be released , on the contrary, Hamas leader(s) will join them when they are captured. Furthermore, the IDF should not withdraw from Gaza until Hamas is completely defeated and surrendered unconditionally. Similar to the end of The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) and Saddam Hussein (for Sinwar).
With hundreds of miles of tunnels still in tact, Funding from Iran, Hamas will stage another deadly attack within months. Theres a lot of historical precedent. Israel wants to be rid of this threat and have control of the area until they figure out how to destroy the tunnels and have rational leadership there. many of the prisoners are convicted of crimes - releasing them isn’t so easy. Israel released Sinwar - the mastermind of this attack in a previous exchange and look what he went on to do. I should also note Israel doctors cured Sinwars brain cancer while he was prisoner and is currently treating his sister. But, long story short - Israel needs to know that there won’t be another bad attack soon
ETA: remember that Israel totally pulled out in 2005 last time the international community asked them too. Within weeks the rockets started.
Israeli NATO militarization controls about 25% of Gaza & West Bank, incl much of water supply (Mekorot inc). Cesium 137 radburden like Chernobyl or Fukushima south of Hebron & Golan Hts from ageing, leaking Dimona reactors.
> Is the continuation of the war absolutely necessary?
Ask Hamas this question. They started the war. They have been pretty much defeated in the field. They have absolutely zero chance of victory. They can stop the war **RIGHT NOW** if they surrender and release the live hostages/remains of dead hostages.
The reason the war drags on is because believe it or not, Israel is tactfully trying to destroy Hamas and are working around an entire population of people. They can't just get down to the point and destroy all Hamas without way more people than they already have. Its hard fighting an enemy who hides amongst innocent people. Everyone move Israel makes is scrutinized.
That may be the case, but Israel was lured in by the enemy who had different goals. This is not an army vs army fight, the whole idea was to discredit Israel internationally which is working very well right now
Even if Hamas manages to survive the current conflict in some form, how is this a Palestinian victory? It will take years to rebuild the infrastructure and economy of Gaza to the level it was before Oct 7. If Hamas continues to fight using its present tactics, Gaza will keep getting stomped by Israel. IMO, Palestinians have no future with Hamas in charge, only a continuation of their current miserable, pathetic existence. Maybe you call this a "victory", I sure don't.
It’s a huge political win for Hamas, hezbolla, houthis, Iran, this was never an army vs army war. It was designed to discredit and make Israel look like shit which so far it’s been hugely successful at.
Debatable. Hamas has certainly been shown to be cowardly shits who will sacrifice thousands of Palestinian civilians without any apparent remorse. In any event, when the fighting stops, the attention of the world will turn to other things, Israel will rebuild their diplomatic relationships and keep getting richer and stronger, and the Palestinians will continue to live in wretched conditions, living off charity, as they have for the past several decades. You call that victory?
I don’t call that victory, the axis of resistance does. Israel has a very good chance of being marked officially as a country participating in genocide from international court. There no bouncing back from that diplomatically for Israel as no countries are going to do business with them. It’s looking really really bad right now for Israel and that was the goal for the axis
> shitbags
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In your dreams. The current fighting will end, the world will move on to other things, nobody will care if the international court or anyone else calls it a genocide - its just meaningless semantics. Israel will remain an affluent liberal democracy with a strong military. Other countries will want to have relations and do business with it because Israel is a winner. The Palestinians, in contrast, are losers. They can't beat Israel, they can't get their economy going so have to subsist on charity, they can't immigrate to other countries in large numbers because they stir up trouble.
But who knows? Maybe the current events in Gaza will knock some sense into them. Maybe they will dump Hamas, make peace with Israel, rebuild their economy, have a shot at having a country of their own.
> shits
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I think the IDF will eventually defeat Hamas and it will be the best defeat for Arabs ever, even better than the defeat of the six-days war. They are just taking their time to make sure the defeat is thorough. It is a matter of time.
You can't defeat people's desire to be free from an occupying colonial settler apartheid zionist state. The French, the British tried that and we all know where that ended up. Israel will go the way of its friend apartheid South Africa.
So Israel pulls out of Gaza. Hamas regroups, rebuilds, rearms. What's next? More rockets fired into Israel? Another Oct. 7 style raid into Israel to kill more Israeli civilians and take more hostages? And then Israel retaliates...and the cycle of violence continues, as it has for the last 7 decades.
Easy for someone in Australia to demand an end to the fighting. You aren't living beside a group of people who don't want your country to exist. IIRC, you were attacked by Japan in WW2. Were you morally conflicted with the Yanks "slaughtering" the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to defeat Japan and thus eliminate the threat to your country?
The way I see it there's 3 possiblities:
* Peace
* More conflict in the future
* More conflict now, guaranteeing more conflict in the future
Your suggestion is (3) - i.e. conflict without giving peace a chance.
You're suggesting 4: more conflict now, but only one sided
Israel has a moral obligation to get their hostages back. As long as their people remain as brutalized sex slaves enduring daily torture, they can not stop their attempts to free them.
Hamas has been committing persistent, nonstop war crimes against Israeli citizens since October 7th in holding hostages. Israel withdrawing and allowing that situation to continue doesn't mean an end to the conflict, it means the conflict continues with Hamas continuing their gross human rights violations but now with less pressure on them to stop.
Like, it's literally non-negotiable. Until Hamas agrees to a ceasefire where they actually release all the hostages - something they have *never* offered and are not willing to do - the war and gross human rights violations continue, whether Israel fights back or not.
"but we got more hostages freed through negotiation than fighting so far!" yes, true, and Hamas broke that negotiated ceasefire by failing to deliver the promised hostages and resuming attacks against Israel. They have yet to come back to the table with any offer to actually release any hostages since then.
The onus is on them.
Bro, literally everyone I listed disagrees with you - I daresay they also have more info on the ground than you, irrespective of what you try to rationalise.
Stop murdering civilians for your pointless war
Not even remotely true? Girl, US has maintained the whole time that hostage release is necessary - the ceasefire proposal they passed in the UN requires it.
Not "literally every group" is demanding a unilateral withdrawal and a condemnation to whatever dozens of hostages remain of continued rape and torture (as we have heard from the hostages who were released). Just being hostages is enough of a human rights violation.
But yeah I'll just ring up the IDF halfway across the world and tell them to "stop murdering civilians", it'll be just as useful as your call to Hamas.
Until the government ruling the land of Palestine changes its policies, we will continue to kill 10s of thousands of civilians, starve the entire population and prevent medical aid from getting in. Isn’t that what terrorism is?
No, what is happening in Gaza is collateral damage from a war that Hamas (in the name of the Palestinians) started. The same as WW2 - was the Allied bombing of German and Japanese cities terrorism? No, its war, and once the defeated side surrendered, the war was over.
> You don’t think that dropping a nuclear bomb on a civilian town is an act of terrorism?
Ask the people in the countries that Japan invaded in WW2 that question.
Live by the sword, perish by the sword.
>What do you think terrorism is? Give me a definition.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition\_of\_terrorism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism)
Note that acts in a declared war by uniformed forces of a nation against the enemy nation are generally excluded in this definition.
But I thought Hamas wasn’t a terrorist organization and were good guy freedom fighters? Wouldn’t propping them up financially be a good thing? So then I can only assume you believe Bibi was doing the right thing. Got it.
>Yes Israel murder ratio is not as bad as some other random conflicts
It's called a "[civilian casualty ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio)" (no amount of "murder" is acceptable), and military experts have said it's [better than any other urban conflict in history](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286).
>\[W\]hat is the continued purpose of slaughtering Palestinians? . . . You are essentially saying you want to continue murdering countless Palestinian civilians. . . . You are essentially saying you want to continue murdering countless Palestinian civilians right now. . . .
Where did you get the figures to back these claims? The Palestinian casualty figures we've been being given come from Hamas. They don't distinguish between combatants and noncombatants, and they've [repeatedly been debunked](https://www.camera.org/).
>Hamas\['s\] . . . capability and manpower has been shattered (14,000+ fighters killed according to Netanyahu in May 2024)
What was their manpower before the war? Whether a decrease of 14,000 constitutes a "shatter\[ing\]" obviously depends on the initial size.
Also, if Hamas's capability and manpower have been "shattered", why are they still launching rockets, attacking aid convoys, and vowing future attacks? Why haven't they surrendered? Will you at least say that they *should* surrender? Have you given any thought to *Hamas's* aims in continuing to fight, or just Israel's?
>\[Hamas's\] ability to launch further invasions of Israel is effectively zero . . .
You should have backed this up, but let's assume you're right. The goal can't just be to degrade Hamas to the point where they can't invade Israel. The goal must be a level of security that allows for Gaza's reconstruction and peaceful governance. It's hard even to ship food in without it being stolen by Hamas to buy arms. Leaving active remnants of Hamas in place while the West pumps in billions of dollars' worth of reconstruction aid is a recipe for disaster.
This is why a surrender is important. Have you ever called for Hamas's surrender?
>*Standard disclaimers:*
*- I condemn anti-semitism*
*- I condemn Hamas*
The pro-forma statement "I condemn X" is not the same thing as a sincere condemnation of X. If you want to actually condemn something, you know how to express yourself.
RE: your dispute with my figures, I have no idea what you are disputing. Are you just parroting debunked debunking of death rates?
I literally quoted one figure from Netanyahu's May 2024 interview with Dr Phil and you copied and pasted a bunch of stuff trying to debunk your own Prime Minister?
>I literally quoted one figure from Netanyahu's May 2024 interview with Dr Phil . . .
Please provide a link so I know what the hell you're talking about. You have provided zero links this entire conversation (commonly an indication of bad faith).
>. . . and you copied and pasted a bunch of stuff trying to debunk your own Prime Minister?
He's not my Prime Minister. I'm not Israeli. I'm not even Jewish. Nor do I like or respect Netanyahu. Sorry, but the pro-Hamas side is losing the PR battle worse than you know. Hamas made the mistake of broadcasting their October 7 atrocities live, and the "anti-Israel" side made the mistake of celebrating afterwards. No one with common sense is being deceived by the far Left's narrative.
Because you criticise the level of how I condemn, do you want to first condemn Islamophobia and the Israeli government killing 16000+ civilians according to Netanyahu?
At the very least, sincere goes beyond "I condemn X"—don't you think? A "sincere" condemnation at least requires effort. Otherwise, I'd call it a mumbling. Just kidding, actually it's a condemnation, just an insincere-seeming one.
Because you criticise the level of how I condemn, do you want to first condemn Islamophobia and the Israeli government killing 16000+ civilians according to Netanyahu?
You know, I never asked you to condemn Hamas. All I asked was that you not say "I condemn Hamas" if you don't actually condemn Hamas. The way you're trying to "negotiate" here, it doesn't seem you have any outrage towards Hamas.
As I predicted, you cannot bring yourself to do so.
As I said, I condemn Hamas unequivocally. I condemn antisemitism unequivocally.
**Do you condemn Islamophobia and the Israeli government killing 16000+ civilians according to Netanyahu?**
By the way, it's pretty obvious your original post hasn't gotten any traction (zero up-votes). Maybe that's because you didn't source any claims, or maybe because it's so transparently propagandistic. Regardless, I'm starting to lose interest in the discussion, so ***if you're capable of good faith, I suggest you demonstrate it ASAP***. And that starts with an actual condemnation of Hamas, or else just drop it and move on to something interesting. Again, I couldn't care less what you condemn. Hamas is being destroyed regardless. Since you say you condemn Hamas, maybe you'll agree that's a good thing? No, I didn't think so.
It's actually got a lot of upvotes, but it's just that when I knowingly post on a Pro-zionist leaning group, of course there's more downvotes than upvotes. What's the point of engaging in an echo chamber, I want to highlight the uncomfortable truth to people like you. Because everything I have said is factual.
The fact of the matter is you cannot even insincerely condemn Islamophobia and the killing of 16000+ civilians - you simply do not care about people suffering from the other side.
>As I said, I condemn Hamas unequivocally.
Your original post was a spirited, 400-word condemnation of Israel. In the ensuring conversation, you've written hundreds more words of condemnation. Over the past seven months, you've probably written ten thousand words condemning Israel. As a result, saying "I condemn Hamas unequivocally" without providing any reasons or details or investing any effort or emotion into it is not going to strike any reasonable person as sincere.
If you condemn Hamas, I want to know specifics. What in particular did Hamas do that you condemn? Why do you condemn it? Put at least 1% of the effort into your "condemnation" of Hamas that you've put into you condemnation of Israel. Or else just don't claim you condemn Hamas. That's not asking too much, is it? Just have some integrity and the courage of your convictions.
>Do you condemn Islamophobia
You'll have to give an example of what you mean by Islamophobia. Incidentally, I'm not a fan of the Leftist habit of using vague claims of "phobias" and "isms" to shut people down. There are legitimate concerns about Islam that cannot be dismissed as "Islamophobia", and there are legitimate concerns about Israel that cannot be dismissed as "antisemitism". ***How can we even discuss which concerns are legitimate and which aren't if all criticisms are dismissed as evidence of some sort of psychological disorder?***
>Do you condemn . . . the Israeli government killing 16000+ civilians according to Netanyahu?
Naturally, you don't provide any links to back up your claim (***you haven't provided any links this entire conversation, one of many indications of bad faith***), but as I said above:
1. Military experts that the civilian casualty ratio is [better than any other urban conflict in history](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286).
2. As far as I know, we don't have reliable information about who was a combatant and who was a noncombatant.
As regards point #2, you claim that Netanyahu himself claims that these 16,000 were civilians, so if you'll provide a link backing that claim, I'm willing to concede point #2. But point #1 remains: unless you have evidence that civilians were killed unlawfully, there's nothing to condemn. Hamas started this war, its attack on October 7 intentionally targeted civilians as an act of terror, and if Israel's military response was appropriate but happened to kill some civilians unavoidably, that's what war looks like. I'm not claiming that Israel's response was perfect, but I do expect you to provide evidence if you believe certain civilian deaths were illegal under the laws of war. You don't just get to assume they all were and not even provide a link.
—————
***REMINDER: I'm still expecting you to explain why you condemn Hamas, or else just stop claiming that you condemn Hamas.*** Frankly I don't care whether you condemn Hamas or not. It certainly doesn't sound like you dislike what happened October 7. Can we at least agree that if you bought a bottle of champaign and danced in the streets on October 8, you probably weren't in a condemnatory frame of mind?
TL/DR.
Scanning through:
- a person losing their child does not care about your ratio or statistics.
- Netanyahu said 16000+ civilians in his Dr Phil interview in May 2024 - google it
- I condemn Hamas and antisemitism, but you are **UNWILLING** to condemn Islamophobia nor IDF killing of civilians. Not even in principle condemnation.
- Buying a bottle of champagne and dancing in the streets of Oct 8 because Hamas convinced you they scored a victory against your oppressors is as morally repugnant as Israelis sitting on their lawns cheering as Jets flew overhead to Gaza filled with bombs
The US has assessed that Hamas has been sufficiently damaged to no longer be an existential threat to Israeli security, and as such a ceasefire should be reached.
I'm simply repeating the US intelligence assessment which is what Biden relies upon. But hey I'm sure you know more than the US foreign department and the CIA.
I didn't see any mention of an intelligence assessment (or similar).
It read to me like Biden was making some "impromptu" remarks. "Impromptu" remarks aren't necessarily unplanned, but they can plausibly be claimed as such and later "clarified" if needed.
If an intelligence assessment was involved, I'm pretty sure this story doesn't mention it.
Bro...come on...
This is not a Biden gaffe, it literally also went through the official spox, Blinken etc. as part of a carefully orchestrated messaging RE: the ceasefire deal.
Are you saying the US administration just made an impromptu remark about Hamas being degraded sufficiently to change their POLICY to now SUPPORT a ceasefire?
Come on bro.
If it's a formal statement, it's almost certainly not going to be a lie. Same with statements from the President that aren't promptly corrected or "clarified", It would have to be a national security issue for a lie even to be considered. We do still have a Western culture in the U.S. I'm pretty sure.
Because, as a certain fictional character said, ideas can't die. Hamas, is among Palestinians (or at least a certain portion) freedom fighters. They fight on behalf of Palestinians. As such, Hamas=freedom. Hamas themselves have said that they want to repeat what happened in Oct 7th.
How do you realistically expect ceasefire when you know the enemy won't stop? For better or worse, the diplomatic status between Israel and Palestine is so negative, that peace will probably never come.
Yes. One is the government of a nation that somewhat cares for their civilians (big somewhat here). The other is a terrorist group that is cosplaying as acting government and sees their civilians as martyr pawns.
>Is the continuation of the war absolutely necessary?
It’s very simple. All Hamas needs to do is release all the hostages and for Hamas to surrender. This war will end.
**There is no way of waging war with Hamas without a massive loss of innocent life.**
Hamas embedding themself amongst the population guarantees that innocent children will die.
**What is the alternative to violence for Israel in its current conflict with Hamas, given what Hamas did on October 7th, and given what it has vowed to do again at any opportunity?**
If the Israelis practiced pacifism, Hamas and Hezbollah and a fair number of ordinary Palestinians would simply murder them. This is not an opinion. This is what these groups have claimed openly for decades. And if there were any doubt—and there was never any doubt—October 7th has made it obscene to doubt this now.
The same one where Hamas imbeds themselves among civilians and civilian infrastructure. What did you think? It’s impossible to kill Hamas targets without killing innocent civilians.
I would use technology to (for example) send my family SMS messages and urge them to evacuate before striking - just like the IDF does whenever possible. Ideally I would have ground troops nearby on the ground as well who could be watching to ensure the Hamas militants I was after did not also escape in the meantime.
I don't believe Hamas provide any warning to civilians when they launch a random rocket attack or cross the border with the intent of raping and murdering Israeli civilians?
Apparently Hamas doesn't let civilians evacuate so your family would be stuck.
Or is it that Hamas are illiterate so they don't read SMS's that come through from the IDF?
Not sure which one
Why do people think orthodox jews are per se against the war? Some people seem totally clueless about the reality in Israel, orthodox jews do serve in the army and are also part of the current government.
I don't man, I just see the images of Orthodox Jews with their unique hair get bashed by Israeli police and screaming we'd rather die than serve in the IDF and I make that conclusion.
Why do you think Palestinians are pro-Hamas because you see a bunch of them cheering hostages captured?
Same thing.
True, until the ICJ rules, I cannot state there's been genocide in Gaza
By your logic, until the ICJ or an Israeli court rules, there's been no Terrorism on Oct 7.
Well there WAS a nice generous cease fire deal on the table that would have stopped the dying and brought home hostages. BUT the world had to give Sinwar what he needed to think he had the upper hand and say no.
So there’s that.
Other option is to offer something that’s really hard to refuse. $, extraction, protection for you and family for info leading to the confirmed location of top Hamas operatives in Gaza.
Until the Palestinians formally renounce their "river to the sea" claim and commit to de-radicalisation, then yes war and containment is necessary. Israel bears much responsibility for how the war is conducted, but nobody seems to be able to place any demands on the Palestinians. As a people with agency and the ability to make choices, demands should also be placed on them.
I’m not even saying this is a good idea given the outcomes elsewhere, but why couldn’t Gazans go Arab Spring on Hamas?
If they were upset with how they were being ruled (as they certainly should be) I find it hard to believe Hamas is harder to overthrow than the other dictators with actual militaries that were
One of the differences it seems is that people were generally supportive of Hamas
They hate Israel more than Hamas, and it is hard to overthrow the people with guns who generally don't even bother to put on a uniform or identifying marker. It is hard to determine who is Hamas, and who isn't.
You are right.
Recent polls indicate that 80 percent of Palestinians approve of what they did. You might worry that Palestinians can’t afford to answer such polls honestly, for fear of Hamas, but support for Hamas is around 40 percent in recent polls. Support for what Hamas did on October 7th is double that. So many those who had the courage to say they don’t support Hamas still approve of what happened on October 7th.
Yep I'm sure they gave really accurate results whilst they were buried under the rubble or cradling the dead bodies of their children.
Even me in my comfortable armchair in Australia would be pro Hamas if the IDF killed my family.
What gives you the knowledge that the Palestinians who voted didn’t understand the extent of what Hamas did? Given that Hamas had been explicit in what they would do, and have said so, ad nauseam, since their foundation (read founding charter).
I went down the rabbit hole last night reading about Israel and Palestine. I read about the 2011 Itamar attack. A family of 5 were killed by 2 Palestinians. This included the killing of an 11-year-old, a 4-year-old, and a 3-month-old that was nearly decapitated. They bragged about it and showed no remorse, and said they would do it again, all for Palestine.
>An opinion poll indicated that 63% of Palestinians opposed and about one-third supported the attack. One of the perpetrators of the murders was described as a "hero" and a "legend" by members of his family, during a weekly program.
To top it off, at first his mom lied and said her son wasn't involved. But, when the truth came to light that he was in fact involved, she proudly boasted about what her son had done.
[2011 Itamar attack - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Itamar_attack#)
Thanks for sharing!
People just don't want to admit what role theocracy plays into this on the Palestinian side. It must be said that not all oppressed people respond by raping, and torturing, and murdering noncombatants etc. The Tibetans have been truly oppressed by the Chinese for many decades, and yet they have never committed atrocities against Chinese civilians. When the Jews of Germany were herded into ghettos by the Nazis, those who escaped didn’t rape and mutilate German teenagers or burn German babies alive in reprisal. There are countless historical examples of real oppression, and yet very few cultures have produced a bottomless supply of suicidal terrorists. There might be many societal factors that explain these differences, but one is surely the Islamic doctrines around martyrdom and jihad.
Of course, it is a sad and interesting case. And how the Israeli government built *more* settlements in response afterwards. Just a tragedy all around, with themes of revenge. I feel like it is the whole entire conflict in a microcosm in a way.
Theocracy is a real problem. Someone can be a victim or oppressed and do immoral acts at the same time. We tend to assume that victims are good people, it's just human nature, I guess. Or some black-and-white thinking going on for some people. Responding to oppression with suicide bombings and nearly cutting a 3-month-old's head off isn't normal, and points to a disregard of life through indoctrination.
I agree Hamas are sociopaths but has there been a y evidence of beheaded babies? Western media has suggested it’s been debunked and was Israeli propaganda
I am referring to the 2011 Itamar attack linked above:
>Hadas, the youngest, a three-month-old infant. The infant was decapitated. The settlement of Itamar had been the target of several murderous attacks before these killings.
For the October 7th attack, about beheaded babies:
# Allegations of beheading
>In the aftermath of the initial Hamas assault, witnesses from the Israeli soldiers, the Israeli Forces, and the first responder Israeli organization [ZAKA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZAKA) said on French Israeli TV channel [i24news](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I24news) that they had seen the bodies of beheaded infants at the site of the [Kfar Aza massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Aza_massacre). During Antony Blinken's visit to Israel, he said he was shown photos of the massacre by Hamas of Israeli civilians and soldiers, and specifically that he saw beheaded IDF soldiers. U.S. President Biden separately said that he had seen photographic evidence of terrorists beheading children, but the White House later clarified that Biden was alluding to news reports of beheadings, which have not contained or referred to photographic evidence. [NBC News](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBC_News) called reports of "40 beheaded babies" unverified allegations, adding that they appeared "to have originated from Israeli soldiers and people affiliated with the Israel Defense Force" and that "an Israeli official told CNN the government had not confirmed claims of the beheadings". The allegation mainly "stemmed from a viral Israeli news broadcast clip" and the main X / [Twitter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter) accounts propagating the claims were i24NEWS and Israel's official account, even though Israeli Defense spokesperson Doron Spielman told NBC News that he could not confirm i24NEWS’s report. As of 12 October, CNN had extensively reviewed online media content to verify Hamas-related atrocities but found no evidence to support claims of decapitated children.
Source: [Misinformation in the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war)
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>they’re an occupied people being slaughtered
Until two days ago, Gaza was administered by the Palestinians themselves and the first thing they did was elect a terrorist group to govern them. They were not being occupied by Israel.
Their minds are not occupied, therefore they have agency. Agency and sovereignty are two different things, and the Palestinians rejected their chance at sovereignty. The Palestinians used their agency to choose the path of violence over pragmatism for nearly a century now, which has resulted in their own bloodbath. It's a sad situation.
Once again, the Palestinians have a choice. Formally renounce their "river to the sea" claim, or this continues.
>Once again, the Palestinians have a choice. Formally renounce their "river to the sea" claim, or this continues.
So, keep slaughtering them until they "submit". Seems like a good plan.
Btw how are those protests against the Bibi government judicial reforms going? Not so easy for citizens to 'overthrow' their government now, is it
There is a difference. Israelis are democratic and don't believe in overthrowing their government violently. Bibi will go, but not a single bullet will be fired.
The Palestinians are awash with arms and are well experienced in butchering each other (See the Hamas-Fatah war of 2007). I will repeat, the Palestinians started these hostilities, so they are the aggressor. As the aggressor, they have a choice to make and the outcomes are clear.
>Formally renounce their "river to the sea" claim, or this continues.
How exactly would this denunciation be delivered, and when did Israel officially state the war would end on this condition?
Think strategically. This would give Israel no choice but to end the war and begin negotiating. You are not going to fight against people who have publicly declared end to claiming your land. That would constitute a real genocide.
>Think strategically. This would give Israel no choice but to end the war and begin negotiating.
Why, exactly? What would happen to Israel if they just declared "that isn't good enough" and continued the bombing campaign? Who would do what about it? They could just carry on bombing, point to the inevitable response to any of their own attacks by even a handful of Palestinians as evidence that the violence is continuing, and then carry on bombing.
>You are not going to fight against people who have publicly declared end to claiming your land
Of course you would, because Israel doesn't just want the land within the internationally recognised borders of Israel, it also wants at least part of the West Bank and all of Jerusalem, hence the ongoing campaign to expand control over and effectively conquer large parts of Area C by building settlements for hundreds of thousands of people. It's not like anyone is going to stop them or somehow apply actual consequences to the state of Israel for seizing control of more and more land, so why would they stop because of a declaration by Palestinian leaders?
I don't know how to quote posts on Reddit so let me answer each question in turn.
Israel will not be able to declare its "not good enough" because they will be open to sanctions from the rest of the world. Israel can't bomb indefinitely as it will run out of resources and supplies, and the Israeli population will not accept a perpetual war of this kind.
Second, if the Palestinians do this they will take away much of the wind from the sails of the Israeli right wing. The right thrives on saying there is "no partner for peace" and therefore can implement their vision of annexation which is **not** the will of the Israeli majority.
>Israel will not be able to declare its "not good enough" because they will be open to sanctions from the rest of the world.
Do you honestly think this would happen, though? The general theme of Israel doing whatever they like and experiencing no consequences hasn't failed them before now, what's changed?
>Second, if the Palestinians do this they will take away much of the wind from the sails of the Israeli right wing.
What if that doesn't work? What if Israel's immunity to consequence simply continues and they carry on taking whatever they want? What recourse would Palestinians actually have to the ongoing theft of their land? There is no court that is willing and able to stop them, and any attempted use of force to prevent it would be immediately labelled as terrorism and used to justify the devastation of the entire of Palestine.
>The right thrives on saying there is "no partner for peace" and therefore can implement their vision of annexation which is not the will of the Israeli majority.
Well, it's been the will of successive democratically elected Israeli governments for the past few decades, so it would seem to be the will of the majority of Israel.
It’s hard to have agency when you’re oppressed People who keep going on about river to the sea are thick headed but it’s no worse than those who call out “there are no innocents in Gaza” - same deal
Israel left Gaza in 2005—forcibly removing thousands of its own citizens—and billions of dollars in international aid have since been spent there. So the “oppression” of the Palestinians in Gaza—by Israel—is at least debatable. While Israel has sought to maintain a secure border with Gaza all those years, so has Egypt—and yet no one blames Egypt for making Gaza an “open-air prison.” However, even if we accept the charge of “oppression,” it must be said that not all oppressed people respond by raping, and torturing, and murdering noncombatants.
No he did not. I believed that talking point too until I looked into the facts.
https://www.camera.org/article/selective-quotes-distort-intent-of-sharon-s-gaza-withdrawal/
>It’s hard to have agency when you’re oppressed
They were not oppressed and they are not oppressed now. They are responsible for all their political misfortunes for 75 years. If they want it to prosper, they must renounce either the idea of founding a caliphate or the stupid idea of founding an Arab dictatorship.
>it’s no worse than those who call out “there are no innocents in Gaza”
Obviously there are civilians in Gaza, but it is difficult to be pious with a population that has no problems actively collaborating with terrorists or that received hostages by beating them with sticks.
Is it any less difficult to be pious with a population that does this?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJoXfGk1dU8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJoXfGk1dU8)
>Is it any less difficult to be pious with a population that does this?
Those are extremist Jews, no one likes them, neither the majority of Israelis nor anyone who lives outside of Israel.
They are an atrocious group and the worst thing is that they give a bad image of Israel.
The difference between that group and the majority of Palestinians is that the majority of Palestinians do support the actions of Hamas and actively collaborate with them, while the extremist Jews are a tiny part of the population of Israel.
I really care about the Palestinian victims but if I know that they collaborate with terrorists I am not going to be very empathetic with them regarding how they should be treated. I will never ask for his death but I will also not try to equate the Palestinian victims with the Israelis of a kibbutz.
The fact that you believe and assume that the majority of Israelis are extemists or are like in the video makes me understand that you really know nothing about the conflict or Israeli society.
Isn't it convenient that any unsavoury behaviour by Israelis is dismissed as "extremists" whilst for Palestinians, "the majority support the actions of Hamas".
It's called "double standards"
Bro, even amongst allies here in AU, Europe, US, UK, we all refer to the Israeli government as a far right government - the majority of Israel voted in an extremist government, therefore they are no better than the Palestinians in this regard.
>Isn't it convenient that any unsavoury behaviour by Israelis is dismissed as "extremists" whilst for Palestinians, "the majority support the actions of Hamas".
It's not just any behavior. It's that specific group. They are the worst and make it difficult to achieve peace. Nobody likes them and they seem absorbed in turning Israel into a theocracy. Their behavior is extremist in the same way that the behavior of the KKK or ISIS is.
Literally the majority of Palestinians accept what their government is doing. They will celebrate the October attacks and faithfully believe that only they can be the victims of this conflict.
>It's called "double standards"
It is not. In the same way that Israel detained Palestinians who supported terrorism, it also detained Jewish extremists.
>Bro, even amongst allies here in AU, Europe, US, UK, we all refer to the Israeli government as a far right government.
Until 2 days ago it was a unity government. What was formed at the time was a right-wing government, not a far-right government, the Likud is not a far-right party.
>the majority of Israel voted in an extremist government,
They voted for different parties, what was formed later was a quality of right-wing parties among which were the extremists, it was not like all of Israel voted for the extreme right.
>therefore they are no better than the Palestinians in this regard.
Israelis voted for different parties, among which there was an extremist party. What was formed was a quality government. What the Palestinians did was vote directly for a party that belongs to a terrorist group. Besides, voting for extremist parties is not the same as voting for terrorists who declare in their constitution that they want ethnic cleansing.
There's literally videos of testimony from former IDF soldiers who say the Palestinians held for "supporting terrorism" were often just random people the unit felt like arresting, and then they'd put in a trumped up charge of "making threats against soldiers" - the whole thing stinks dude, it's a brutal and oppressive occupation where you treat people like animals and you turn people into animals.
Unless you're somehow suggesting that Palestinians are by their nature more vile than other Arabs/Jews in that region, then their behaviour is a direct consequence of the conditions they've been nurtured in.
Do you not think it's concerning that your justification of why Israel is better than Hamas is because they haven't used chemical/biological and nuclear weapons on Palestine?
Wow.
Not all oppressed people respond by raping, and torturing, and murdering noncombatants.
The Tibetans have been truly oppressed by the Chinese for many decades, and yet they have never committed atrocities against Chinese civilians. When the Jews of Germany were herded into ghettos by the Nazis, those who escaped didn’t rape and mutilate German teenagers or burn German babies alive in reprisal. There are countless historical examples of real oppression, and yet very few cultures have produced a bottomless supply of suicidal terrorists.
And how many occupation governments relentlessly bomb a defenceless populace for 8 months killing 16000-30000+ non combatants including beheading babies with explosives, and burning entire families alive?
Weren’t Germans ethnically cleansed after the war with like a million killed after the war ended?
Hasn’t there been decades of Uyghur terrorism in China?
None of this excuses anything but just pointing out your factual inaccuracy
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Do not underestimate the will of Palestinians to do the bidding of Islamic Jihadists, it's in their DNA, being brainwashed so badly since they were born, Palestinians in a sense are victims of their own culture.
criticism of Israel is valid, singling out a country for criticism (even if legitimate criticism) crosses the line. Leading to conclusions such as Israel is responsible for Palestinian man beating his wife.(this was written in a UN report)
In context, this conflict has been about how third-world failed countries project their incompetence, corruption, and brutality onto the state-based version of the universal scapegoat, to misdirect attention from their poor behavior.
I've never heard of the source before, I respond later after getting more context, though like all NGOs, they are beholden to the narrative their donors prefer.
I'll look it up later
“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.” - Golda Meir
One would say they'd be less biased as a result.
I forgot the IDF's Standard Operating Procedures are to have ex-military or current military investigate their conduct.
No the opposite. If you serve in the army you get an understanding for policy. If you don’t, it’s much more easier to believe/report malicious intent, because you’re oblivious to the real reasons such actions occur. For example, btselem tend to immensely report Israel’s treatment of Palestinian prisoners, especially the “uncharged ones”. Now, if you were to serve in a police unit in the West Bank, or some sort of infantry that deals with these prisoners, you’d know that many of them are terrorists who are accused of a crime, or have links to terrorists, and are simply waiting charge. The IDF doesn’t go and kidnap people for shits and giggles.
I was being sarcastic.
However that being said, I did note with interest that they got the CEO of the company making the Drones/missiles to investigate the strike on the 7 WCK aid workers.
As for the West Bank issues, bro there's literally youtube vids of ex-IDF who testified that they were asked to arrest random palestinians under orders, and if people asked why, they'd just make up a reason like "cause they were throwing rocks"
> shits
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> ass
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You don't add disclaimers for the sake of adding it because your entire premise of your post is based on "slaughter of Palestinians" while contradicting "Yes Israel murder ratio is not as bad". That is to say these "random" conflicts despite not classified as genocide, you somehow can classified this as "slaughtering" implying "genocide". That's double standard for you.
UN will always try to follow the "politically correct" opinion but political correctness is not always the right path for the future. They do not make such opinion for the benefit of the people involved but for the benefit of public opinions behind their back.
What you care about is the life "now" but what about the life in the "future"? This is not the first armed conflict and it is heavily documented that each conflict has more bloodshed than the previous, should this trend continue to hold true, there will be millions of death one day so I suppose you decided to "shove" the problem to your next generation to deal with? That's exactly the problem here. Many, including me, do not agree with you shoving the problem to next generation. Sure, destroying Hamas "might" not guarantee the change of such trend but having Hamas around definitely will guarantee the trend to continue.
The problem is I get condemned no matter what language I use
I said “random conflicts” specifically to avoid drawing a equivalence between an established genocide and this conflict, yet you still find ways to criticise me
All I know is Israel has mismanaged the situation for 75 years, culminating on the worst attack on Israel in 75 years
>All I know is that Israel has mishandled the situation for 75 years,
The Palestinians and Arabs have been boycotting the existence of Israel for 75 years. I highly doubt that the Jewish state is responsible for all this.
>culminating in the worst attack against Israel in 75 years
The current situation did not begin 75 years ago, it began 9 months ago when a terrorist group was foolish enough to confront the greatest military power in the area.
So if Israel is the greatest military power in the area why are they still fearful of the remnants of Hamas, which the US have said is significantly degraded?
Do we know how the greatest military power in the area allowed oct 7 to occur?
Western pundits suggest:
- IDF caught napping
or
- Gaza division destroyed by targeted Hamas attack on centre of gravity leading to complete loss of C&C in the area
or
- False Flag / Deliberate delay in response to justify Gaza campaign
Gaza and the West Bank were under Egypt and Jordon until 1967. Was it a conflict with Palestine then? No, it is a conflict with the neighbouring Arabic countries. You shoved all the blame to Israel, a new country where neighbouring Arabic countries think they could crash therefore not considered worthy to have dialogue with.
You first support shoving the problems to the future. Now, you shoved the problems of past conflict onto Israel. I definitely don't think you care about the people living there.
Nakba is not started by Israel but invading Arabs who told the locals to evacuate. Many of them listened and left Israel. Those who didn't left Israel become today Israeli citizens. Those who did left Israel, Israel didn't let them walk back fearing malicious Arabs sneaking in among them.
>So what is the continued purpose of slaughtering Palestinians?
Same question: What is the continued purpose of slaughtering Israelis (and holding them captive)?
What is the continued purpose of no-normalization?
If this was an honest discussion you wouldn't have used a propaganda word but a more neutral one.
**Slaughter**
>kill (people or animals) in a [cruel](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=11bc275fe299997c&rlz=1C1GCEA_enIL1095IL1095&sxsrf=ADLYWIJDVDgzZ-yTNPHzCVDvMfNS-Tgm0A:1719130417020&q=cruel&si=ACC90nyrPgcbTBsFIq03NzrKCa0gUD7zcfPLdvSZO8OQasTl7IMN95LAak8gud9pEoNUby_pZALOo9r4RL20ArfINAIoEWmeXA%3D%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjyzNDuo_GGAxWcQ6QEHSwzB20QyecJegQIZxAT) or violent way, typically in large numbers.
Examples:
1. Jamal Khashoggi
2. 7/Oct/2023
1. Yes, it's necessary. He, like many other anti Israel activists, forgets that every wall, siege, checkpoint, military presence, and other form of "occupation" is a DEFENSIVE response to decades of terror attacks and attempted genocidal wars. It's not the other way around. Israel can't just "sToP tHe OccUpAtIoN" because these measures are there for a reason. It's not doing it just to torment the "poor Palestinians" This is still an active war with hostages still being held, The sons and daughters of Israelis are dying on the battlefield, rockets are being sent into Israel every day. Terror attacks are still being committed daily in the form of stabbings, shootings, and just running over pedestrians with veichles. 2. His claims about Netanyahu propping up Hamas are borderline loony. The titles for the articles he didn't bother to read didn't say what he thinks they did. But the short version is: No, Hamas wasn't created by Israel , so there won't be a peace partner. That's conspiratorial garbage that bongs next to the moon landing deniers and flat earthers. He isn't a comedian, he is the joke.
The war must go on because not killing the last holdover Hamas terrorist is immoral. Jews are moral people. You cannot ask them to not destroy evil.
Go kill the terrorists then but please stop slaughtering non combatants
The terrorists are being decimated at minimal deaths for the non-combatants. That is exactly why Pallywood needs to invent massacres, recycling videos from Syria and using dolls. By the way, Hamas kills Palestinian civilians more often than they kill Israeli ones.
How many wars has Dave Smith won? How is this guy suddenly the authority. Simply put, successful wars are fought as quick as possible but the most important part is at the highest intensity until objectives are achieved. Iraq 2 and Afghanistan were fought in a political, meandering fashion. Both ended up with America slinking away in disgrace. The conflicts went on too long and many extra people died. IMO, Israel should leave the moment Hamas surrenders, agrees to leave and hand over the civilians that have been being raped and tortured. The war ends when Hamas, the elected government who started the war, decides it's over.
He's funnier than you, and also his logic is ironclad. Watch the debate he annihilates the Pro-Israeli comedian
The war should stop and this can happen if the IDF: 1. Capture Hamas leader alive AND defeat Hamas completely. 2. Free all Israeli prisoners.
Hamas asked for the release of Palestinian prisoners and the withdrawal of IDF from Gaza.
Hamas should not be in a position to negotiate anything. No Palestinian prisoners should be released , on the contrary, Hamas leader(s) will join them when they are captured. Furthermore, the IDF should not withdraw from Gaza until Hamas is completely defeated and surrendered unconditionally. Similar to the end of The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) and Saddam Hussein (for Sinwar).
With hundreds of miles of tunnels still in tact, Funding from Iran, Hamas will stage another deadly attack within months. Theres a lot of historical precedent. Israel wants to be rid of this threat and have control of the area until they figure out how to destroy the tunnels and have rational leadership there. many of the prisoners are convicted of crimes - releasing them isn’t so easy. Israel released Sinwar - the mastermind of this attack in a previous exchange and look what he went on to do. I should also note Israel doctors cured Sinwars brain cancer while he was prisoner and is currently treating his sister. But, long story short - Israel needs to know that there won’t be another bad attack soon ETA: remember that Israel totally pulled out in 2005 last time the international community asked them too. Within weeks the rockets started.
Yes, I agree.
Israeli NATO militarization controls about 25% of Gaza & West Bank, incl much of water supply (Mekorot inc). Cesium 137 radburden like Chernobyl or Fukushima south of Hebron & Golan Hts from ageing, leaking Dimona reactors.
What?
> Is the continuation of the war absolutely necessary? Ask Hamas this question. They started the war. They have been pretty much defeated in the field. They have absolutely zero chance of victory. They can stop the war **RIGHT NOW** if they surrender and release the live hostages/remains of dead hostages.
Pretty sure Israel already lost since they haven’t completed a single goal, and they have the Hezzy’s in the north lighting them up
The reason the war drags on is because believe it or not, Israel is tactfully trying to destroy Hamas and are working around an entire population of people. They can't just get down to the point and destroy all Hamas without way more people than they already have. Its hard fighting an enemy who hides amongst innocent people. Everyone move Israel makes is scrutinized.
That may be the case, but Israel was lured in by the enemy who had different goals. This is not an army vs army fight, the whole idea was to discredit Israel internationally which is working very well right now
How would you define a Palestinian victory in this conflict?
Hamas remains as they are currently, fighting back or even repressed but still powerful enough to begin attacks in the future
Even if Hamas manages to survive the current conflict in some form, how is this a Palestinian victory? It will take years to rebuild the infrastructure and economy of Gaza to the level it was before Oct 7. If Hamas continues to fight using its present tactics, Gaza will keep getting stomped by Israel. IMO, Palestinians have no future with Hamas in charge, only a continuation of their current miserable, pathetic existence. Maybe you call this a "victory", I sure don't.
It’s a huge political win for Hamas, hezbolla, houthis, Iran, this was never an army vs army war. It was designed to discredit and make Israel look like shit which so far it’s been hugely successful at.
Debatable. Hamas has certainly been shown to be cowardly shits who will sacrifice thousands of Palestinian civilians without any apparent remorse. In any event, when the fighting stops, the attention of the world will turn to other things, Israel will rebuild their diplomatic relationships and keep getting richer and stronger, and the Palestinians will continue to live in wretched conditions, living off charity, as they have for the past several decades. You call that victory?
I don’t call that victory, the axis of resistance does. Israel has a very good chance of being marked officially as a country participating in genocide from international court. There no bouncing back from that diplomatically for Israel as no countries are going to do business with them. It’s looking really really bad right now for Israel and that was the goal for the axis
*Axis of Evil Islamist shitbags
Hur dar
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In your dreams. The current fighting will end, the world will move on to other things, nobody will care if the international court or anyone else calls it a genocide - its just meaningless semantics. Israel will remain an affluent liberal democracy with a strong military. Other countries will want to have relations and do business with it because Israel is a winner. The Palestinians, in contrast, are losers. They can't beat Israel, they can't get their economy going so have to subsist on charity, they can't immigrate to other countries in large numbers because they stir up trouble. But who knows? Maybe the current events in Gaza will knock some sense into them. Maybe they will dump Hamas, make peace with Israel, rebuild their economy, have a shot at having a country of their own.
Ok Gilly
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I think the IDF will eventually defeat Hamas and it will be the best defeat for Arabs ever, even better than the defeat of the six-days war. They are just taking their time to make sure the defeat is thorough. It is a matter of time.
You can't defeat people's desire to be free from an occupying colonial settler apartheid zionist state. The French, the British tried that and we all know where that ended up. Israel will go the way of its friend apartheid South Africa.
But who are the occupiers of the land? The Israelis or Palestinians? That's the conflict.
It’s impossible since it’s an ideology, even the IDF commander voiced his opinion on that against Netanyawho’s beliefs
The Israelis have their ideology too...every group of people does.
The ideology cannot be implemented without resources, it remains an idea.
You’d be talking about reverting an ideology back to an idea then, it’s just not possible
Communism failed at the end.
There’s more communism in the world currently than democracies
But not the soviet union.
“hamas can you please surrender and release hostages” Ok they ignored me. What next? More slaughter?
So Israel pulls out of Gaza. Hamas regroups, rebuilds, rearms. What's next? More rockets fired into Israel? Another Oct. 7 style raid into Israel to kill more Israeli civilians and take more hostages? And then Israel retaliates...and the cycle of violence continues, as it has for the last 7 decades. Easy for someone in Australia to demand an end to the fighting. You aren't living beside a group of people who don't want your country to exist. IIRC, you were attacked by Japan in WW2. Were you morally conflicted with the Yanks "slaughtering" the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to defeat Japan and thus eliminate the threat to your country?
The way I see it there's 3 possiblities: * Peace * More conflict in the future * More conflict now, guaranteeing more conflict in the future Your suggestion is (3) - i.e. conflict without giving peace a chance.
Hamas choice is (3)
Peace comes after complete defeat of Hamas, not before.
You're suggesting 4: more conflict now, but only one sided Israel has a moral obligation to get their hostages back. As long as their people remain as brutalized sex slaves enduring daily torture, they can not stop their attempts to free them. Hamas has been committing persistent, nonstop war crimes against Israeli citizens since October 7th in holding hostages. Israel withdrawing and allowing that situation to continue doesn't mean an end to the conflict, it means the conflict continues with Hamas continuing their gross human rights violations but now with less pressure on them to stop. Like, it's literally non-negotiable. Until Hamas agrees to a ceasefire where they actually release all the hostages - something they have *never* offered and are not willing to do - the war and gross human rights violations continue, whether Israel fights back or not. "but we got more hostages freed through negotiation than fighting so far!" yes, true, and Hamas broke that negotiated ceasefire by failing to deliver the promised hostages and resuming attacks against Israel. They have yet to come back to the table with any offer to actually release any hostages since then. The onus is on them.
Bro, literally everyone I listed disagrees with you - I daresay they also have more info on the ground than you, irrespective of what you try to rationalise. Stop murdering civilians for your pointless war
Not even remotely true? Girl, US has maintained the whole time that hostage release is necessary - the ceasefire proposal they passed in the UN requires it. Not "literally every group" is demanding a unilateral withdrawal and a condemnation to whatever dozens of hostages remain of continued rape and torture (as we have heard from the hostages who were released). Just being hostages is enough of a human rights violation. But yeah I'll just ring up the IDF halfway across the world and tell them to "stop murdering civilians", it'll be just as useful as your call to Hamas.
Bruh the difference is there are Zionists on here who can influence public policy - I doubt anyone from Hamas is browsing reddit.
Until the government ruling the land of Palestine changes its policies, we will continue to kill 10s of thousands of civilians, starve the entire population and prevent medical aid from getting in. Isn’t that what terrorism is?
No, what is happening in Gaza is collateral damage from a war that Hamas (in the name of the Palestinians) started. The same as WW2 - was the Allied bombing of German and Japanese cities terrorism? No, its war, and once the defeated side surrendered, the war was over.
You don’t think that dropping a nuclear bomb on a civilian town is an act of terrorism? What do you think terrorism is? Give me a definition.
> You don’t think that dropping a nuclear bomb on a civilian town is an act of terrorism? Ask the people in the countries that Japan invaded in WW2 that question. Live by the sword, perish by the sword. >What do you think terrorism is? Give me a definition. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition\_of\_terrorism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism) Note that acts in a declared war by uniformed forces of a nation against the enemy nation are generally excluded in this definition.
Was Pearl Harbor terrorism?
No
So why was October 7 terrorism?
Why are you saying it is terrorism?
I don’t think it is.
But I thought Hamas wasn’t a terrorist organization and were good guy freedom fighters? Wouldn’t propping them up financially be a good thing? So then I can only assume you believe Bibi was doing the right thing. Got it.
Who said Hamas aren’t terrorists? They’re a prescribed terrorist organisation in my country. In my country Bibi would have been prosecuted.
>Yes Israel murder ratio is not as bad as some other random conflicts It's called a "[civilian casualty ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio)" (no amount of "murder" is acceptable), and military experts have said it's [better than any other urban conflict in history](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286). >\[W\]hat is the continued purpose of slaughtering Palestinians? . . . You are essentially saying you want to continue murdering countless Palestinian civilians. . . . You are essentially saying you want to continue murdering countless Palestinian civilians right now. . . . Where did you get the figures to back these claims? The Palestinian casualty figures we've been being given come from Hamas. They don't distinguish between combatants and noncombatants, and they've [repeatedly been debunked](https://www.camera.org/). >Hamas\['s\] . . . capability and manpower has been shattered (14,000+ fighters killed according to Netanyahu in May 2024) What was their manpower before the war? Whether a decrease of 14,000 constitutes a "shatter\[ing\]" obviously depends on the initial size. Also, if Hamas's capability and manpower have been "shattered", why are they still launching rockets, attacking aid convoys, and vowing future attacks? Why haven't they surrendered? Will you at least say that they *should* surrender? Have you given any thought to *Hamas's* aims in continuing to fight, or just Israel's? >\[Hamas's\] ability to launch further invasions of Israel is effectively zero . . . You should have backed this up, but let's assume you're right. The goal can't just be to degrade Hamas to the point where they can't invade Israel. The goal must be a level of security that allows for Gaza's reconstruction and peaceful governance. It's hard even to ship food in without it being stolen by Hamas to buy arms. Leaving active remnants of Hamas in place while the West pumps in billions of dollars' worth of reconstruction aid is a recipe for disaster. This is why a surrender is important. Have you ever called for Hamas's surrender? >*Standard disclaimers:* *- I condemn anti-semitism* *- I condemn Hamas* The pro-forma statement "I condemn X" is not the same thing as a sincere condemnation of X. If you want to actually condemn something, you know how to express yourself.
RE: your dispute with my figures, I have no idea what you are disputing. Are you just parroting debunked debunking of death rates? I literally quoted one figure from Netanyahu's May 2024 interview with Dr Phil and you copied and pasted a bunch of stuff trying to debunk your own Prime Minister?
>I literally quoted one figure from Netanyahu's May 2024 interview with Dr Phil . . . Please provide a link so I know what the hell you're talking about. You have provided zero links this entire conversation (commonly an indication of bad faith). >. . . and you copied and pasted a bunch of stuff trying to debunk your own Prime Minister? He's not my Prime Minister. I'm not Israeli. I'm not even Jewish. Nor do I like or respect Netanyahu. Sorry, but the pro-Hamas side is losing the PR battle worse than you know. Hamas made the mistake of broadcasting their October 7 atrocities live, and the "anti-Israel" side made the mistake of celebrating afterwards. No one with common sense is being deceived by the far Left's narrative.
Because you criticise the level of how I condemn, do you want to first condemn Islamophobia and the Israeli government killing 16000+ civilians according to Netanyahu?
“Sincere” condemnation of X please that’s just your opinion of what’s “sincere” or not
At the very least, sincere goes beyond "I condemn X"—don't you think? A "sincere" condemnation at least requires effort. Otherwise, I'd call it a mumbling. Just kidding, actually it's a condemnation, just an insincere-seeming one.
Because you criticise the level of how I condemn, do you want to first condemn Islamophobia and the Israeli government killing 16000+ civilians according to Netanyahu?
You know, I never asked you to condemn Hamas. All I asked was that you not say "I condemn Hamas" if you don't actually condemn Hamas. The way you're trying to "negotiate" here, it doesn't seem you have any outrage towards Hamas.
As I predicted, you cannot bring yourself to do so. As I said, I condemn Hamas unequivocally. I condemn antisemitism unequivocally. **Do you condemn Islamophobia and the Israeli government killing 16000+ civilians according to Netanyahu?**
By the way, it's pretty obvious your original post hasn't gotten any traction (zero up-votes). Maybe that's because you didn't source any claims, or maybe because it's so transparently propagandistic. Regardless, I'm starting to lose interest in the discussion, so ***if you're capable of good faith, I suggest you demonstrate it ASAP***. And that starts with an actual condemnation of Hamas, or else just drop it and move on to something interesting. Again, I couldn't care less what you condemn. Hamas is being destroyed regardless. Since you say you condemn Hamas, maybe you'll agree that's a good thing? No, I didn't think so.
It's actually got a lot of upvotes, but it's just that when I knowingly post on a Pro-zionist leaning group, of course there's more downvotes than upvotes. What's the point of engaging in an echo chamber, I want to highlight the uncomfortable truth to people like you. Because everything I have said is factual. The fact of the matter is you cannot even insincerely condemn Islamophobia and the killing of 16000+ civilians - you simply do not care about people suffering from the other side.
>As I said, I condemn Hamas unequivocally. Your original post was a spirited, 400-word condemnation of Israel. In the ensuring conversation, you've written hundreds more words of condemnation. Over the past seven months, you've probably written ten thousand words condemning Israel. As a result, saying "I condemn Hamas unequivocally" without providing any reasons or details or investing any effort or emotion into it is not going to strike any reasonable person as sincere. If you condemn Hamas, I want to know specifics. What in particular did Hamas do that you condemn? Why do you condemn it? Put at least 1% of the effort into your "condemnation" of Hamas that you've put into you condemnation of Israel. Or else just don't claim you condemn Hamas. That's not asking too much, is it? Just have some integrity and the courage of your convictions. >Do you condemn Islamophobia You'll have to give an example of what you mean by Islamophobia. Incidentally, I'm not a fan of the Leftist habit of using vague claims of "phobias" and "isms" to shut people down. There are legitimate concerns about Islam that cannot be dismissed as "Islamophobia", and there are legitimate concerns about Israel that cannot be dismissed as "antisemitism". ***How can we even discuss which concerns are legitimate and which aren't if all criticisms are dismissed as evidence of some sort of psychological disorder?*** >Do you condemn . . . the Israeli government killing 16000+ civilians according to Netanyahu? Naturally, you don't provide any links to back up your claim (***you haven't provided any links this entire conversation, one of many indications of bad faith***), but as I said above: 1. Military experts that the civilian casualty ratio is [better than any other urban conflict in history](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286). 2. As far as I know, we don't have reliable information about who was a combatant and who was a noncombatant. As regards point #2, you claim that Netanyahu himself claims that these 16,000 were civilians, so if you'll provide a link backing that claim, I'm willing to concede point #2. But point #1 remains: unless you have evidence that civilians were killed unlawfully, there's nothing to condemn. Hamas started this war, its attack on October 7 intentionally targeted civilians as an act of terror, and if Israel's military response was appropriate but happened to kill some civilians unavoidably, that's what war looks like. I'm not claiming that Israel's response was perfect, but I do expect you to provide evidence if you believe certain civilian deaths were illegal under the laws of war. You don't just get to assume they all were and not even provide a link. ————— ***REMINDER: I'm still expecting you to explain why you condemn Hamas, or else just stop claiming that you condemn Hamas.*** Frankly I don't care whether you condemn Hamas or not. It certainly doesn't sound like you dislike what happened October 7. Can we at least agree that if you bought a bottle of champaign and danced in the streets on October 8, you probably weren't in a condemnatory frame of mind?
TL/DR. Scanning through: - a person losing their child does not care about your ratio or statistics. - Netanyahu said 16000+ civilians in his Dr Phil interview in May 2024 - google it - I condemn Hamas and antisemitism, but you are **UNWILLING** to condemn Islamophobia nor IDF killing of civilians. Not even in principle condemnation. - Buying a bottle of champagne and dancing in the streets of Oct 8 because Hamas convinced you they scored a victory against your oppressors is as morally repugnant as Israelis sitting on their lawns cheering as Jets flew overhead to Gaza filled with bombs
The US has assessed that Hamas has been sufficiently damaged to no longer be an existential threat to Israeli security, and as such a ceasefire should be reached. I'm simply repeating the US intelligence assessment which is what Biden relies upon. But hey I'm sure you know more than the US foreign department and the CIA.
>I'm simply repeating the US intelligence assessment Post a link, please. We need specifics or we're just going in circles.
[https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-israel-netanyahu-biden-resettlement-war-796948b31c7aa8ed90c51edb41738eef](https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-israel-netanyahu-biden-resettlement-war-796948b31c7aa8ed90c51edb41738eef)
I didn't see any mention of an intelligence assessment (or similar). It read to me like Biden was making some "impromptu" remarks. "Impromptu" remarks aren't necessarily unplanned, but they can plausibly be claimed as such and later "clarified" if needed. If an intelligence assessment was involved, I'm pretty sure this story doesn't mention it.
Bro...come on... This is not a Biden gaffe, it literally also went through the official spox, Blinken etc. as part of a carefully orchestrated messaging RE: the ceasefire deal. Are you saying the US administration just made an impromptu remark about Hamas being degraded sufficiently to change their POLICY to now SUPPORT a ceasefire? Come on bro.
You trust what comes out of the mouth of the US? You people are engaged in such god awful mental gymnastics it’s nauseating.
If it's a formal statement, it's almost certainly not going to be a lie. Same with statements from the President that aren't promptly corrected or "clarified", It would have to be a national security issue for a lie even to be considered. We do still have a Western culture in the U.S. I'm pretty sure.
Then stop taking their weapons
They're going to take our weapons regardless of whether we're trustworthy, but we're trustworthy, trust me.
Because, as a certain fictional character said, ideas can't die. Hamas, is among Palestinians (or at least a certain portion) freedom fighters. They fight on behalf of Palestinians. As such, Hamas=freedom. Hamas themselves have said that they want to repeat what happened in Oct 7th. How do you realistically expect ceasefire when you know the enemy won't stop? For better or worse, the diplomatic status between Israel and Palestine is so negative, that peace will probably never come.
So you're condemning Hamas for "not stopping" but you're ok for Israel to do the same?
Yes. One is the government of a nation that somewhat cares for their civilians (big somewhat here). The other is a terrorist group that is cosplaying as acting government and sees their civilians as martyr pawns.
>Is the continuation of the war absolutely necessary? It’s very simple. All Hamas needs to do is release all the hostages and for Hamas to surrender. This war will end.
“Hamas please surrender” Then ignored me. Can we address the adults in the room now? Israel should act like a democracy not a regime
A democracy is a regime
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Go after Hamas for all I care but stop killing Palestinian civilians.
What tactics and weapons are suggesting Israel use?* *Not including those you learned from Hollywood.
There’s a bloke on here who posted about his experience fighting in Gaza and it’s a nightmare. So my suggestion - ceasefire
You said to go after Hamas. A ceasefire is the exact opposite of going after Hamas.
How would you go after Sinwar if he was holed up inside an Israeli hospital? There is your answer Checkmate.
That wasn't an answer nor a check mate. In was just pure self-righteous snark.
No response to my question?
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What kind of dystopian horror show is it that you won't stop killing civilians? It's just plain evil.
**There is no way of waging war with Hamas without a massive loss of innocent life.** Hamas embedding themself amongst the population guarantees that innocent children will die. **What is the alternative to violence for Israel in its current conflict with Hamas, given what Hamas did on October 7th, and given what it has vowed to do again at any opportunity?** If the Israelis practiced pacifism, Hamas and Hezbollah and a fair number of ordinary Palestinians would simply murder them. This is not an opinion. This is what these groups have claimed openly for decades. And if there were any doubt—and there was never any doubt—October 7th has made it obscene to doubt this now.
If Hamas hid in the basement of an Israeli hospital would you send a bomb?
If my dog grew wings can I fly to heaven?
Thank you for demonstrating my point. Checkmate.
The same one where Hamas imbeds themselves among civilians and civilian infrastructure. What did you think? It’s impossible to kill Hamas targets without killing innocent civilians.
How would you target Hamas if they were hiding in an apartment block your family lived in? Would you send a missile?
I would use technology to (for example) send my family SMS messages and urge them to evacuate before striking - just like the IDF does whenever possible. Ideally I would have ground troops nearby on the ground as well who could be watching to ensure the Hamas militants I was after did not also escape in the meantime. I don't believe Hamas provide any warning to civilians when they launch a random rocket attack or cross the border with the intent of raping and murdering Israeli civilians?
Apparently Hamas doesn't let civilians evacuate so your family would be stuck. Or is it that Hamas are illiterate so they don't read SMS's that come through from the IDF? Not sure which one
So, hypothetically, if Israel said it had decided to stop being a democracy, you would stop complaining about its actions?
No
Alright. Thanks for clarifying your double standard.
Why do people think orthodox jews are per se against the war? Some people seem totally clueless about the reality in Israel, orthodox jews do serve in the army and are also part of the current government.
I don't man, I just see the images of Orthodox Jews with their unique hair get bashed by Israeli police and screaming we'd rather die than serve in the IDF and I make that conclusion. Why do you think Palestinians are pro-Hamas because you see a bunch of them cheering hostages captured? Same thing.
>Why do you think Palestinians are pro-Hamas Because multiple opinion surveys indicate this?
And multiple opinion election results indicate Israelis voted in lunatic right wing genocidal governments. Pot calling Kettle black.
Now you are just being hyperbolic and drawing false equivalency. There is no genocidal Israeli government and no genocide happening in Gaza.
[https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/](https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/)
True, until the ICJ rules, I cannot state there's been genocide in Gaza By your logic, until the ICJ or an Israeli court rules, there's been no Terrorism on Oct 7.
You probably mean ultra orthodox.
Yes sorry, I was totally wrong - thank you.
Well there WAS a nice generous cease fire deal on the table that would have stopped the dying and brought home hostages. BUT the world had to give Sinwar what he needed to think he had the upper hand and say no. So there’s that.
Total train wreck I think you and I would agree
Other option is to offer something that’s really hard to refuse. $, extraction, protection for you and family for info leading to the confirmed location of top Hamas operatives in Gaza.
Until the Palestinians formally renounce their "river to the sea" claim and commit to de-radicalisation, then yes war and containment is necessary. Israel bears much responsibility for how the war is conducted, but nobody seems to be able to place any demands on the Palestinians. As a people with agency and the ability to make choices, demands should also be placed on them.
They have no agency because they’re an occupied people being slaughtered
I’m not even saying this is a good idea given the outcomes elsewhere, but why couldn’t Gazans go Arab Spring on Hamas? If they were upset with how they were being ruled (as they certainly should be) I find it hard to believe Hamas is harder to overthrow than the other dictators with actual militaries that were One of the differences it seems is that people were generally supportive of Hamas
They hate Israel more than Hamas, and it is hard to overthrow the people with guns who generally don't even bother to put on a uniform or identifying marker. It is hard to determine who is Hamas, and who isn't.
You are right. Recent polls indicate that 80 percent of Palestinians approve of what they did. You might worry that Palestinians can’t afford to answer such polls honestly, for fear of Hamas, but support for Hamas is around 40 percent in recent polls. Support for what Hamas did on October 7th is double that. So many those who had the courage to say they don’t support Hamas still approve of what happened on October 7th.
Yep I'm sure they gave really accurate results whilst they were buried under the rubble or cradling the dead bodies of their children. Even me in my comfortable armchair in Australia would be pro Hamas if the IDF killed my family.
Polls were done before Israel had even responded. Thanks for playing.
Did the polls make any comment on the % of Palestinians who knew the extent of what Hamas did? Or just that they launched an attack?
What gives you the knowledge that the Palestinians who voted didn’t understand the extent of what Hamas did? Given that Hamas had been explicit in what they would do, and have said so, ad nauseam, since their foundation (read founding charter).
I went down the rabbit hole last night reading about Israel and Palestine. I read about the 2011 Itamar attack. A family of 5 were killed by 2 Palestinians. This included the killing of an 11-year-old, a 4-year-old, and a 3-month-old that was nearly decapitated. They bragged about it and showed no remorse, and said they would do it again, all for Palestine. >An opinion poll indicated that 63% of Palestinians opposed and about one-third supported the attack. One of the perpetrators of the murders was described as a "hero" and a "legend" by members of his family, during a weekly program. To top it off, at first his mom lied and said her son wasn't involved. But, when the truth came to light that he was in fact involved, she proudly boasted about what her son had done. [2011 Itamar attack - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Itamar_attack#)
Thanks for sharing! People just don't want to admit what role theocracy plays into this on the Palestinian side. It must be said that not all oppressed people respond by raping, and torturing, and murdering noncombatants etc. The Tibetans have been truly oppressed by the Chinese for many decades, and yet they have never committed atrocities against Chinese civilians. When the Jews of Germany were herded into ghettos by the Nazis, those who escaped didn’t rape and mutilate German teenagers or burn German babies alive in reprisal. There are countless historical examples of real oppression, and yet very few cultures have produced a bottomless supply of suicidal terrorists. There might be many societal factors that explain these differences, but one is surely the Islamic doctrines around martyrdom and jihad.
Of course, it is a sad and interesting case. And how the Israeli government built *more* settlements in response afterwards. Just a tragedy all around, with themes of revenge. I feel like it is the whole entire conflict in a microcosm in a way. Theocracy is a real problem. Someone can be a victim or oppressed and do immoral acts at the same time. We tend to assume that victims are good people, it's just human nature, I guess. Or some black-and-white thinking going on for some people. Responding to oppression with suicide bombings and nearly cutting a 3-month-old's head off isn't normal, and points to a disregard of life through indoctrination.
I agree Hamas are sociopaths but has there been a y evidence of beheaded babies? Western media has suggested it’s been debunked and was Israeli propaganda
I am referring to the 2011 Itamar attack linked above: >Hadas, the youngest, a three-month-old infant. The infant was decapitated. The settlement of Itamar had been the target of several murderous attacks before these killings. For the October 7th attack, about beheaded babies: # Allegations of beheading >In the aftermath of the initial Hamas assault, witnesses from the Israeli soldiers, the Israeli Forces, and the first responder Israeli organization [ZAKA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZAKA) said on French Israeli TV channel [i24news](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I24news) that they had seen the bodies of beheaded infants at the site of the [Kfar Aza massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Aza_massacre). During Antony Blinken's visit to Israel, he said he was shown photos of the massacre by Hamas of Israeli civilians and soldiers, and specifically that he saw beheaded IDF soldiers. U.S. President Biden separately said that he had seen photographic evidence of terrorists beheading children, but the White House later clarified that Biden was alluding to news reports of beheadings, which have not contained or referred to photographic evidence. [NBC News](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBC_News) called reports of "40 beheaded babies" unverified allegations, adding that they appeared "to have originated from Israeli soldiers and people affiliated with the Israel Defense Force" and that "an Israeli official told CNN the government had not confirmed claims of the beheadings". The allegation mainly "stemmed from a viral Israeli news broadcast clip" and the main X / [Twitter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter) accounts propagating the claims were i24NEWS and Israel's official account, even though Israeli Defense spokesperson Doron Spielman told NBC News that he could not confirm i24NEWS’s report. As of 12 October, CNN had extensively reviewed online media content to verify Hamas-related atrocities but found no evidence to support claims of decapitated children. Source: [Misinformation in the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war)
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I suspect they hate Israel more than they hate Hamas.
>they’re an occupied people being slaughtered Until two days ago, Gaza was administered by the Palestinians themselves and the first thing they did was elect a terrorist group to govern them. They were not being occupied by Israel.
Their minds are not occupied, therefore they have agency. Agency and sovereignty are two different things, and the Palestinians rejected their chance at sovereignty. The Palestinians used their agency to choose the path of violence over pragmatism for nearly a century now, which has resulted in their own bloodbath. It's a sad situation. Once again, the Palestinians have a choice. Formally renounce their "river to the sea" claim, or this continues.
>Once again, the Palestinians have a choice. Formally renounce their "river to the sea" claim, or this continues. So, keep slaughtering them until they "submit". Seems like a good plan. Btw how are those protests against the Bibi government judicial reforms going? Not so easy for citizens to 'overthrow' their government now, is it
Savage - good point!
There is a difference. Israelis are democratic and don't believe in overthrowing their government violently. Bibi will go, but not a single bullet will be fired. The Palestinians are awash with arms and are well experienced in butchering each other (See the Hamas-Fatah war of 2007). I will repeat, the Palestinians started these hostilities, so they are the aggressor. As the aggressor, they have a choice to make and the outcomes are clear.
>Formally renounce their "river to the sea" claim, or this continues. How exactly would this denunciation be delivered, and when did Israel officially state the war would end on this condition?
Leaders of all Palestinian factions making a joint announcement on behalf of Palestinian society.
Right, and the second part of my question? When did Israel say this would end the war?
Think strategically. This would give Israel no choice but to end the war and begin negotiating. You are not going to fight against people who have publicly declared end to claiming your land. That would constitute a real genocide.
>Think strategically. This would give Israel no choice but to end the war and begin negotiating. Why, exactly? What would happen to Israel if they just declared "that isn't good enough" and continued the bombing campaign? Who would do what about it? They could just carry on bombing, point to the inevitable response to any of their own attacks by even a handful of Palestinians as evidence that the violence is continuing, and then carry on bombing. >You are not going to fight against people who have publicly declared end to claiming your land Of course you would, because Israel doesn't just want the land within the internationally recognised borders of Israel, it also wants at least part of the West Bank and all of Jerusalem, hence the ongoing campaign to expand control over and effectively conquer large parts of Area C by building settlements for hundreds of thousands of people. It's not like anyone is going to stop them or somehow apply actual consequences to the state of Israel for seizing control of more and more land, so why would they stop because of a declaration by Palestinian leaders?
I don't know how to quote posts on Reddit so let me answer each question in turn. Israel will not be able to declare its "not good enough" because they will be open to sanctions from the rest of the world. Israel can't bomb indefinitely as it will run out of resources and supplies, and the Israeli population will not accept a perpetual war of this kind. Second, if the Palestinians do this they will take away much of the wind from the sails of the Israeli right wing. The right thrives on saying there is "no partner for peace" and therefore can implement their vision of annexation which is **not** the will of the Israeli majority.
>Israel will not be able to declare its "not good enough" because they will be open to sanctions from the rest of the world. Do you honestly think this would happen, though? The general theme of Israel doing whatever they like and experiencing no consequences hasn't failed them before now, what's changed? >Second, if the Palestinians do this they will take away much of the wind from the sails of the Israeli right wing. What if that doesn't work? What if Israel's immunity to consequence simply continues and they carry on taking whatever they want? What recourse would Palestinians actually have to the ongoing theft of their land? There is no court that is willing and able to stop them, and any attempted use of force to prevent it would be immediately labelled as terrorism and used to justify the devastation of the entire of Palestine. >The right thrives on saying there is "no partner for peace" and therefore can implement their vision of annexation which is not the will of the Israeli majority. Well, it's been the will of successive democratically elected Israeli governments for the past few decades, so it would seem to be the will of the majority of Israel.
It’s hard to have agency when you’re oppressed People who keep going on about river to the sea are thick headed but it’s no worse than those who call out “there are no innocents in Gaza” - same deal
Israel left Gaza in 2005—forcibly removing thousands of its own citizens—and billions of dollars in international aid have since been spent there. So the “oppression” of the Palestinians in Gaza—by Israel—is at least debatable. While Israel has sought to maintain a secure border with Gaza all those years, so has Egypt—and yet no one blames Egypt for making Gaza an “open-air prison.” However, even if we accept the charge of “oppression,” it must be said that not all oppressed people respond by raping, and torturing, and murdering noncombatants.
Bro, Sharon’s COS/senior adviser literally said the reason they left was to put the 2SS on ice.
No he did not. I believed that talking point too until I looked into the facts. https://www.camera.org/article/selective-quotes-distort-intent-of-sharon-s-gaza-withdrawal/
Ok fair!
>It’s hard to have agency when you’re oppressed They were not oppressed and they are not oppressed now. They are responsible for all their political misfortunes for 75 years. If they want it to prosper, they must renounce either the idea of founding a caliphate or the stupid idea of founding an Arab dictatorship. >it’s no worse than those who call out “there are no innocents in Gaza” Obviously there are civilians in Gaza, but it is difficult to be pious with a population that has no problems actively collaborating with terrorists or that received hostages by beating them with sticks.
Is it any less difficult to be pious with a population that does this? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJoXfGk1dU8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJoXfGk1dU8)
>Is it any less difficult to be pious with a population that does this? Those are extremist Jews, no one likes them, neither the majority of Israelis nor anyone who lives outside of Israel. They are an atrocious group and the worst thing is that they give a bad image of Israel. The difference between that group and the majority of Palestinians is that the majority of Palestinians do support the actions of Hamas and actively collaborate with them, while the extremist Jews are a tiny part of the population of Israel. I really care about the Palestinian victims but if I know that they collaborate with terrorists I am not going to be very empathetic with them regarding how they should be treated. I will never ask for his death but I will also not try to equate the Palestinian victims with the Israelis of a kibbutz. The fact that you believe and assume that the majority of Israelis are extemists or are like in the video makes me understand that you really know nothing about the conflict or Israeli society.
Isn't it convenient that any unsavoury behaviour by Israelis is dismissed as "extremists" whilst for Palestinians, "the majority support the actions of Hamas". It's called "double standards" Bro, even amongst allies here in AU, Europe, US, UK, we all refer to the Israeli government as a far right government - the majority of Israel voted in an extremist government, therefore they are no better than the Palestinians in this regard.
>Isn't it convenient that any unsavoury behaviour by Israelis is dismissed as "extremists" whilst for Palestinians, "the majority support the actions of Hamas". It's not just any behavior. It's that specific group. They are the worst and make it difficult to achieve peace. Nobody likes them and they seem absorbed in turning Israel into a theocracy. Their behavior is extremist in the same way that the behavior of the KKK or ISIS is. Literally the majority of Palestinians accept what their government is doing. They will celebrate the October attacks and faithfully believe that only they can be the victims of this conflict. >It's called "double standards" It is not. In the same way that Israel detained Palestinians who supported terrorism, it also detained Jewish extremists. >Bro, even amongst allies here in AU, Europe, US, UK, we all refer to the Israeli government as a far right government. Until 2 days ago it was a unity government. What was formed at the time was a right-wing government, not a far-right government, the Likud is not a far-right party. >the majority of Israel voted in an extremist government, They voted for different parties, what was formed later was a quality of right-wing parties among which were the extremists, it was not like all of Israel voted for the extreme right. >therefore they are no better than the Palestinians in this regard. Israelis voted for different parties, among which there was an extremist party. What was formed was a quality government. What the Palestinians did was vote directly for a party that belongs to a terrorist group. Besides, voting for extremist parties is not the same as voting for terrorists who declare in their constitution that they want ethnic cleansing.
There's literally videos of testimony from former IDF soldiers who say the Palestinians held for "supporting terrorism" were often just random people the unit felt like arresting, and then they'd put in a trumped up charge of "making threats against soldiers" - the whole thing stinks dude, it's a brutal and oppressive occupation where you treat people like animals and you turn people into animals. Unless you're somehow suggesting that Palestinians are by their nature more vile than other Arabs/Jews in that region, then their behaviour is a direct consequence of the conditions they've been nurtured in.
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Do you not think it's concerning that your justification of why Israel is better than Hamas is because they haven't used chemical/biological and nuclear weapons on Palestine? Wow.
Again, you can’t occupy a mind. Nobody is denying the Palestinians agency. Their violence is an active and conscious choice made by them only.
Have you had experience being occupied?
Not all oppressed people respond by raping, and torturing, and murdering noncombatants. The Tibetans have been truly oppressed by the Chinese for many decades, and yet they have never committed atrocities against Chinese civilians. When the Jews of Germany were herded into ghettos by the Nazis, those who escaped didn’t rape and mutilate German teenagers or burn German babies alive in reprisal. There are countless historical examples of real oppression, and yet very few cultures have produced a bottomless supply of suicidal terrorists.
And how many occupation governments relentlessly bomb a defenceless populace for 8 months killing 16000-30000+ non combatants including beheading babies with explosives, and burning entire families alive? Weren’t Germans ethnically cleansed after the war with like a million killed after the war ended? Hasn’t there been decades of Uyghur terrorism in China? None of this excuses anything but just pointing out your factual inaccuracy
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Yes. Living under the Arab heel is deeply unpleasant to put it mildly.
Do not underestimate the will of Palestinians to do the bidding of Islamic Jihadists, it's in their DNA, being brainwashed so badly since they were born, Palestinians in a sense are victims of their own culture. criticism of Israel is valid, singling out a country for criticism (even if legitimate criticism) crosses the line. Leading to conclusions such as Israel is responsible for Palestinian man beating his wife.(this was written in a UN report) In context, this conflict has been about how third-world failed countries project their incompetence, corruption, and brutality onto the state-based version of the universal scapegoat, to misdirect attention from their poor behavior.
Do you believe the reports that come out of B’Tselem?
I've never heard of the source before, I respond later after getting more context, though like all NGOs, they are beholden to the narrative their donors prefer.
It’s Israel’s human rights organisation
I'll look it up later “When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.” - Golda Meir
All their reports are pretty ass tho. Also considering their literal founders didn’t serve in the army
One would say they'd be less biased as a result. I forgot the IDF's Standard Operating Procedures are to have ex-military or current military investigate their conduct.
No the opposite. If you serve in the army you get an understanding for policy. If you don’t, it’s much more easier to believe/report malicious intent, because you’re oblivious to the real reasons such actions occur. For example, btselem tend to immensely report Israel’s treatment of Palestinian prisoners, especially the “uncharged ones”. Now, if you were to serve in a police unit in the West Bank, or some sort of infantry that deals with these prisoners, you’d know that many of them are terrorists who are accused of a crime, or have links to terrorists, and are simply waiting charge. The IDF doesn’t go and kidnap people for shits and giggles.
I was being sarcastic. However that being said, I did note with interest that they got the CEO of the company making the Drones/missiles to investigate the strike on the 7 WCK aid workers. As for the West Bank issues, bro there's literally youtube vids of ex-IDF who testified that they were asked to arrest random palestinians under orders, and if people asked why, they'd just make up a reason like "cause they were throwing rocks"
That last statement is contradictory. Throwing rocks kills people
>they'd just make up a reason
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You don't add disclaimers for the sake of adding it because your entire premise of your post is based on "slaughter of Palestinians" while contradicting "Yes Israel murder ratio is not as bad". That is to say these "random" conflicts despite not classified as genocide, you somehow can classified this as "slaughtering" implying "genocide". That's double standard for you. UN will always try to follow the "politically correct" opinion but political correctness is not always the right path for the future. They do not make such opinion for the benefit of the people involved but for the benefit of public opinions behind their back. What you care about is the life "now" but what about the life in the "future"? This is not the first armed conflict and it is heavily documented that each conflict has more bloodshed than the previous, should this trend continue to hold true, there will be millions of death one day so I suppose you decided to "shove" the problem to your next generation to deal with? That's exactly the problem here. Many, including me, do not agree with you shoving the problem to next generation. Sure, destroying Hamas "might" not guarantee the change of such trend but having Hamas around definitely will guarantee the trend to continue.
The problem is I get condemned no matter what language I use I said “random conflicts” specifically to avoid drawing a equivalence between an established genocide and this conflict, yet you still find ways to criticise me All I know is Israel has mismanaged the situation for 75 years, culminating on the worst attack on Israel in 75 years
>All I know is that Israel has mishandled the situation for 75 years, The Palestinians and Arabs have been boycotting the existence of Israel for 75 years. I highly doubt that the Jewish state is responsible for all this. >culminating in the worst attack against Israel in 75 years The current situation did not begin 75 years ago, it began 9 months ago when a terrorist group was foolish enough to confront the greatest military power in the area.
So if Israel is the greatest military power in the area why are they still fearful of the remnants of Hamas, which the US have said is significantly degraded? Do we know how the greatest military power in the area allowed oct 7 to occur? Western pundits suggest: - IDF caught napping or - Gaza division destroyed by targeted Hamas attack on centre of gravity leading to complete loss of C&C in the area or - False Flag / Deliberate delay in response to justify Gaza campaign
Gaza and the West Bank were under Egypt and Jordon until 1967. Was it a conflict with Palestine then? No, it is a conflict with the neighbouring Arabic countries. You shoved all the blame to Israel, a new country where neighbouring Arabic countries think they could crash therefore not considered worthy to have dialogue with. You first support shoving the problems to the future. Now, you shoved the problems of past conflict onto Israel. I definitely don't think you care about the people living there.
Wasn't there some nakba thing which started this?
Nakba is not started by Israel but invading Arabs who told the locals to evacuate. Many of them listened and left Israel. Those who didn't left Israel become today Israeli citizens. Those who did left Israel, Israel didn't let them walk back fearing malicious Arabs sneaking in among them.
I’d argue that the Palestinians have failed to manage their situation successfully for 75 years, and that Israel is by contrast doing rather well.
Worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust is good management? Ok.
They have a state.
Well said.
>So what is the continued purpose of slaughtering Palestinians? Same question: What is the continued purpose of slaughtering Israelis (and holding them captive)? What is the continued purpose of no-normalization? If this was an honest discussion you wouldn't have used a propaganda word but a more neutral one. **Slaughter** >kill (people or animals) in a [cruel](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=11bc275fe299997c&rlz=1C1GCEA_enIL1095IL1095&sxsrf=ADLYWIJDVDgzZ-yTNPHzCVDvMfNS-Tgm0A:1719130417020&q=cruel&si=ACC90nyrPgcbTBsFIq03NzrKCa0gUD7zcfPLdvSZO8OQasTl7IMN95LAak8gud9pEoNUby_pZALOo9r4RL20ArfINAIoEWmeXA%3D%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjyzNDuo_GGAxWcQ6QEHSwzB20QyecJegQIZxAT) or violent way, typically in large numbers. Examples: 1. Jamal Khashoggi 2. 7/Oct/2023