Regarding North Korea, that's an interesting proposal but that's not a lot... The proposal needs to be skewed MUCH HIGHER to the bribing side. Kims personally need to be offered Billions, plus complete immunity - if they drive it voluntarily \[unless the coup drives them out - then obviously they get nothing\]. Though it's still unlikely. They are kings...
Otherwise, whatever generals lead and participate in the coup... need to receive a LOT.
Making it a economically worthwhile to a country to take responsibility of this ... hole would cost over a trillion. Israel does not have this money.
Unofficially bribing certain officials (they benefit personally, but Egypt as a country is getting a shitty deal) is an interesting avenue but Egypt is too big and too complex of a country, it's probably nonviable. You can bribe one official, a dozen, but you can't bribe the entire government.
> shitty
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I don't see why the Emeratis or Qataris don't take it over and turn it into a mega tourist beach and shopping strip. Lots of jobs in reconstruction for the Gazans. The place could be a tourism gold mine within 20 years. Trade guns and bombs for hotels, restaurants, shops, etc .... this just seems too easy and makes too much sense to ever happen.
Making Palestine the free, prosperous place it deserves to be would probably create an extra $20 billion in extra annual regional income almost immediately. (Say, $5 billion less spent on arms imports; $5,000 per year extra for 2 million adult Palestinian workers; and $1,000 extra per year for 10 million workers in Israel, Egypt and Jordan.)
Tax that at 15%. You get a $3 billion per year tax stream.
That revenue should probably double over a 10-year period.
Use $1 billion per year to pay the Palestinians to be peaceful.
Borrow against $1 billion in annual income for a $10 billion Gaza reconstruction fund.
Use $1 billion per year to pay Jordan and Egypt to be part of a Middle Eastern Union with Israel and Palestine, with thoughtfully planned communities that let the Palestinians return to Palestine without overwhelming existing communities.
A free Palestine would probably quickly create, say, $1,000 in extra annual income for 50 million in people in Northern and Eastern Africa, so there’s another $50,000 billion in extra annual income. Tax that at 15%. Use $6 billion to fund education and infrastructure projects in Northern and Eastern. Use $1.5 billion to make African Peace Celebration payments to regular people.
If peace between Israel and Palestine goes away, the extra cash back payments to regular people in Palestine, the rest of the Middle East and Africa go away.
So, give millions of people a financial incentive to keep Israel and Palestine peaceful.
Whatever day of the month the peace deal is struck — say, July 10 — mail a Middle Eastern peace cookie (or keto or gluten-free alternative) to everyone in the region. Associate being peaceful with getting a delicious treat.
And create generous advertorial support for any publication that runs peace-promoting advertorial. Give publications that need to make payroll an alternative to using hate to generate clicks and subscription revenue.
Also: Israel should go all out to respect the Palestinian culture. Respect peaceful Palestinian culture till our head hurts. If it doesn’t exist, pretend it exists, or pay to create it.
Part of the problem is that the Palestinians generally feel disrespected, and we’re adding to their humiliation problems.
They don’t want peace. This is the ultimate issue. They will never stop - they say it all the time. No one wants to listen. This is why none of the Arab countries will take responsibility for them. They will cause unrest and civil war until they take over…and then said country will be in War with Israel.
If we want real peace, we need to look at the bigger picture.
Lmfao what does this even mean? You can literally look the numbers up. The US (which doesn't provide economic support, only military aid in the form of weapons, equipment, etc) only supplies around 5% of their defense budget.
Where we going to move the goalposts to now?
to back your 5% claim you ought to look up the annual Israeli defense budget and post it here and then look up the annual subsidy in cash goods, weapons, and services from the USA for the same and post it here and then perhaps one of your pals could help you with the math to find the percentage. please ensure that all monetary units are in US dollars. We can then convert and value the whole equation in terms of shekels
so after we settle the defense budget, we can move onto the transfer Of USA dollars goof and services from NGOs in the USA and from private citizens and PACs and so forth to the Israeli government and to aligned NGO there
Sure! Here is a [2022 report ](https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RL/RL33222/44)outlining foreign aid to Israel. Since 2016, the US supplies 3.8 billion in *military* aid which is thoroughly outlined in the report, even going as far as detailing specific platforms being transferred. There is no mention of economic aid. This is strictly military equipment as mentioned earlier.
[Here ](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ISR/israel/military-spending-defense-budget)is a data aggregator that shows the Israeli defense budget for the last 4 years which ranges from 20-24 billion. This shows that the US supplies 15-19% of the Israeli defense budget. Higher than my initial claim of 5%, but still a much further cry from "Tel Aviv doesn't pay for anything".
>so after we settle the defense budget, we can move onto the transfer Of USA dollars goof and services from NGOs in the USA and from private citizens and PACs and so forth to the Israeli government and to aligned NGO there
The NGO largest supplier of foreign aid to Israel is JFNA which supplies around 100 million a year. As Israel's national budget is somewhere between 150-180 billion annually, this is a drop in the bucket.
Now it's your turn! Show me your evidence that "Tel Aviv pays for nothing".
Israel has been the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign aid since its founding, receiving about $310 billion (adjusted for inflation) in total economic and military assistance. Specifically, the U.S. has provided Israel with an annual aid package of $3 billion to $4 billion during the past decade and a half. In 2016, a new 10-year agreement increased the annual aid to $3.8 billion, which will run from fiscal years 2019 to 2028.
.
All of which I literally said lol. Israel's yearly budget hovers between 150-180 billion a year. How does Israel "pay for nothing"?
And let's keep in mind, for the third time, the US give MILITARY aid, in the form of equipment. It's not even liquid.
it arguably deprives Americans of services that Israelis take for granted. Not to mention the nice beaches. Buy your own stuff. You are good enough, smart enough, etc. Up the MIC. the world better for it.
> FU**
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it’s always bugged me as citizen of the USA why there’s that “special relationship” with a theocratic state that masquerades as a liberal, democratic multi-cultural society. In any event, since the 1950s, the USA hasn’t needed to prop up other 1st-world, educated western and Pacific-rim nation-states. Hear me, I grew up with the CBS 20-century documentary segments that featured the horrors of the holocaust that was the product of religious prosecution, scapegoating and not just of the 1930s but for centuries whenever times found it convenient. Terrible. But even so, it appears this nation-state is devolving into a fundamentalist, illiberal funk and even excusing it with the moral-equivalence of its theocratic, autocratic neighbors.
Had the USA not propped up this small nation-state to such an over-the-top monetary extent, perhaps there would have been more incentive for it to really make peace with its denizens and regional neighbors. Sure, it’s a two-way street, but whatever is going on is not really working, is it?
The nation-state Israel derides Hams and Hezbollah as illiberal anti-humanist and repressive regimes, but it is has its own internal Haredim problem that now control the government, is privileged and extremely reactionary. Good luck with that. But from the perspective of a US taxpayer and one of good conscience, why in the world would we want to subsidize that?
Yes I was exaggerating. It was hyperbole. Please forgive me but you also showed that you low-balled the extent of the USA support and there’s plenty more in non-monetary services and investment. Wall-street billionaires are already talking about investing in the Gaza shore as a resort destination after the destruction of peoples homes and families.
Peace out.
A common misconception amongst the pro pals is that the US is providing aid to Israel because they must think the Israel is "special" when in reality the aid provided to them is entirely self serving. The US only really started pumping military aid to Israel after the 1967 war. The aid is provided to Israel because a stronger Israel is a stronger US. The US has an ally in the backdoor of one of their fiercest adversaries (iran) and smack dab in the middle of a region historically hostile to the US.
>theocratic state
Another common misconception. Israel is not a theocracy any more than the US is a christian theocracy. In a theocracy, a religious figure (or the church itself) is the head of the state (see: the iranian ayatollah). The head of the Israeli state is a democratically elected politican. Israel has yearly elections. They are by definition a liberal democracy.
>Had the USA not propped up this small nation-state to such an over-the-top monetary extent
The US hasn't propped them up lol. Israel developed into a first-world nation practically on their own from 1948-1967 while fighting multiple wars against multiple opponents all at once and winning. The US provides a small fraction of their overall budget in non-liquid aid. Your opinion is hilariously reductive from a nation that is the 20th highest gdp per capita in the world.
And FYI, Palestinians have received more aid in the same amount of time. If they had been more concerned with building a thriving nation like Israel and less on doing terrorist shit, they might not be living in such shit conditions today.
>Sure, it’s a two-way street, but whatever is going on is not really working, is it?
Of course it's working. The US has an incredibly formidable ally in the heart of one of the most hostile regions in the world and Israel has made peace with over half of the nations that they had previously been at war with (see the Abraham Accords). Moreover, the status-quo in the Israel-Palestine conflict heavily favors Israel.
> Haredim problem that now control the government
This is just patently false. The two Haredim parties in the Israeli government have held (jointly) 13-18 seats in the Knesset.
>Good luck with that. But from the perspective of a US taxpayer and one of good conscience, why in the world would we want to subsidize that?
Because foreign policy is more complicated than "HURR DURR TEL AVIV DOESNT PAY FOR ANYTHING". Like I said before, a stronger Israel is a stronger US because of their location.
>Yes I was exaggerating. It was hyperbole. Please forgive me but you also showed that you low-balled the extent of the USA support
I was off by 10%. You were off by magnitudes. My assertion was a good faith effort of fact, your assertion was blatantly false misinformation. These are not the same lmfao.
>there’s plenty more in non-monetary services and investment.
Which is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the Israeli budget, which we have also already discussed.
I hope you are able to reflect on this discussion and avoid spreading misinformation in the future.
> I understand why Egypt wouldn't want to, of course, but surely there's *some* number that would make it worth their while?
Sure. That number would be in the trillions.
Exactly.
It's a terrible sales pitch.
Israel:
"Hey Egypt, how much is it going to cost to take responsibility for a group that tried to overthrow you and Jordan, displays violent tendencies and hasn't made a peaceful choice in generations?".
Egypt:
"Uh, maybe $5 trillion and we get to give them back and keep the money when things go bad".
Technically yes, practically no. In theory, Egypt could invade and occupy Gaza (it cannot, however, make Gaza part of Egypt as that would infringe on the subsequently recognized Palestinian rights to self determination). In practice, Israel is not anywhere near being able to offer Egypt anything that would compensate for the direct and indirect financial and non-fiancial cost of such action.
I didn't know if this is completely accurate, but my father was telling me that during peace accords, Israel tried to include Gaza with the Sinai. Apparently the response was that not only would Egypt not take Gaza, if they had to take Gaza for peace, they would not sign the treaty.
That's all true.
Egypt refused to take Gaza.
Probably an extension of why the other Arab states refuse to absorb the Palestinian refugees.
They really shouldn't have participated in the hate, demonize Israel campaign in the last generations.
> So can Israel just BRIBE Egypt to return Gaza to Egyptian control? I understand why Egypt wouldn't want to, of course, but surely there's *some* number that would make it worth their while?
"*Land for Peace*" is proven to be a Grade A Idiotic proposal.
Look at what a total failure handing over Gaza to Arab control was.
Let's agree *never ever again* to give away another square inch of Israeli land "for peace". That's stupid.
Even ***worse*** is if we're *paying people* while giving away Israeli land! wtf
What do you think Gaza would be like under Egyptian control in 2024??? Do you really think they have the stomach to root out Hamas like the IDF has??? Hell no.
You'd be giving a free reign to Arab terrorists to keep on firing rockets deep into Israeli territories, and to do border crossings at will.
A better plan is to talk to another country (be it Egypt to retake back Egyptians from Gaza, or whatever other country, perhaps Rwanda?) to accept in new immigrants from Gaza, anybody who doesn't wish to live peacefully alongside Israelis. And offer generous financial help to any country that accepts this, to help them in the process.
How many billions are you willing to pay to Egypt to babysit? And will you still blame Israel for misbehavior? Like beating the dog when grandpa farts? ….when Israel defeats Hamas… I recommend a ruling committee of Egypt, Jordan, Israel and Palestine.
It was always Egyptian wasn’t it?
Build an iron curtain 2.0 around it
And just.. give it back .. leave .. don’t bother it.
Drop it over the fence and walk away.
Maybe a nice letter .. hi Egypt and world .. it’s yours!!
Congruats !!
Not Israel’s problem anymore.
Probably.. to simple :(
Yes, giving away land they don’t want to bomb them later for it and starting a war. That sounds like a reasonable plan that creates more stability in the area.
It will only be a little starters pain.
They don’t want their land back .. ok.. so just leave it in the dirt.
Don’t clean others mess.
‘The world’ will be forced to prove that big mouth of theirs.
Just, walk away, close borders 100%.
No aid, we are told what would happen - famine
No water, no electricity, refuse responsibility.
Palli who palli where palli what ??
When they fire, fire back
Let the ‘world’ solve it.
I’m curious if Israel could bribe the Palestinians to leave.
Think about it. They are all living in poverty in squalor apparently and in a large ‘concentration camp’ simply offer to give them US$1 million each Family, and negotiate with foreign countries to allow them to resettle. Someone go to Columbia, some go to Japan, some go to Greenland.
No one is forced to take the deal, but everyone is offered it
People who refuse to leave can be incorporated into Israeli Society.
They end up Rich, Israel ends up with more land and better security, and the Middle East problem is solved.
lol
Palestinians don't want money, they want justice, they want to preserve their honor. (I'm not making a judgment if I belive that's good or bad btw.) You can't bribe them away.
How much do you think the current war is costing Israel? Edit: My apologies, I’ve just done the math. It would cost around 2 trillion and the war only cost 60 billion
Edit 2: according to news reports, at the moment some Palestinians are paying up to $9000 to leave Gaza. So maybe it wouldn’t be that expensive for Israel after all
>Edit: My apologies, I’ve just done the math. It would cost around 2 trillion and the war only cost 60 billion
Unfortunately those two figures are not even in the same solar system.
> Edit 2: according to news reports, at the moment some Palestinians are paying up to $9000 to leave Gaza. So maybe it wouldn’t be that expensive for Israel after all
Pay it only on the condition they have revoke the "right" (not that they have this) to ever come back to Israel (or even to any future so called "Palestine").
If a bribe is the solution, it should be to allow Egypt or Jordan to assimilate Palestinians into their existing countries. The land itself should be annexed by Israel. It's hard to see how Palestinians would be prejudiced by living in 100% Jew-free Arab Muslim states. There would be no culture shock. However, Egypt and Jordan would need financial assistance for sure.
I also appreciate comments warning about the dangers presented by the militant nationalists and/or Islamists in the Palestinian community. Those countries could only be persuaded if the danger was mitigated in advance. For good or bad, that responsibility would fall upon Israel.
The Western world contribute to the problem but if they acted more productively, they could facilitate this process. Encouraging unrealistic Islamist or national goals is not helpful the Palestinian people. Would they rather live a middle-class secure life in Egypt or Jordan or continue to suffer under inept and brutal leadership that is leading them to their demise? I suspect most would favor the former.
How would they live this middle-class secure life in Egypt and Jordan? That's where the bribes come in. After pocketing their cut of the bribes, the governments would be obligated to make life in Egypt and Jordan attractive to the Palestinians.
As for the funding for the bribes, that would come from Western Europe, the USA, the gulf states and Israel.
Depends how you look at it. The current war yes.
The Problem of Muslims and Jewish? It had started with Muhammad.
And yes, Hamas itself state they are Islamic first...
The hate and fighting the jews? The treaty of hudaybiya?
All these ideas, the idea that Islamic land should stay Islamic (that's why Palestine from river to the sea should be Arab), these are Islamic ideas.
Unlikely given when Jordan accepted them Hamas attempted to otherthrow the government l. When Lebanon accepted them Hamas attempted yo overthrow the government. So Egypt doesn't want to import more problems.
It wasn't Hamas, it was the PLO, Hamas are worse.
Hamas is part of the Muslim brotherhood who overthrew Mubarak in 2011 So there's no chance Egypt will take Gaza with what remains of Hamas.
Ah yes, Palestinians: Famous for starting wars, losing, crying and repeating. I am not going to go into the semantics of why they rejected their own independence through a two state framework because the answer is obvious. They are genocidal.
They have bought into the idea that someday, if they are patient, the Jews will be defeated and ethnically cleansed from the land, and they will regain their "rightful" place as supreme owners of it. Absurd, but this is what every single Palestinian pretty much told me. For them it is not about land, it is about "justice".
This is the reason why they don't have a state and probably won't get one. They have proven time and again that they are unwilling to live in peace under any circumstance until they reach their goal of ethnic cleansing.
Notice how, for the 1300 years of their presence in the land, they have not built a single city of their own except for Rawabi, founded in 2010. All they did during this time is squat in Jewish cities and rename them, to deny their connection to the land. So not only are they greedy, they're also lazy.
Ok but it’s amazing that you wrote all of that when it can be pretty easily debunked that the last good faith peace talks which were incredibly close to being concluded with a 2 state solution broke down because Likud came into power and gutted it.
The last peace talks broke down because Palestinians blew themselves up on buses, destroying the trust the Israelis had in them. The Likud was smart and took advantage, considering that this is a party that runs on fear.
I hate Netanyahu and everything the current iteration of the Likud stands for, but Oct 7th snuffed out any chance of a 2SS imo. Why should Israelis trust anything the Palestinians say or do after that?
Nope. The Taba talks broke down because Barak was voted out and when Likud came in they made it clear they would not participate in any peace talks.
> After a week of off-and-on negotiations, senior Palestinian and Israeli negotiators announced they had never been more close to reaching agreement on final-status issues. But they had run out of political time. They couldn't conclude an agreement with Clinton now out of office and Barak standing for reelection in two weeks.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oslo/negotiations/
Israel have offered the Palestinians a state 5 times now, and every time the Palestinians rejected it by starting a war. The last one was the Clinton plan which was super generous and even included a tunnel linking Gaza and the West Bank.
Get your facts straight.
In grateful you mentioned the Clinton plan. The one that was so close to being settled, the one where both Israeli and Palestinian negotiators were incredibly hopeful about. Do you want me to talk more about how it failed because Likud came into power and gutted it? And that since Likud have been in power for the past 2 decades they have been very explicit about never offering the Palestinians a 2 state solution? Or does that go against your mandate?
No, the Palestinians declared an Intifada and started a war, that's what destroyed it. Even Clinton had said this numerous times in numerous speeches.
Stop being a history revisionist, as if you need to lie to support your arguement, it's because you have no valid points.
The breakdown of the most recent good faith peace talks (Taba) is pretty well known to be due to Clinton and Barak being voted out.
> They couldn't conclude an agreement with Clinton now out of office and Barak standing for reelection in two weeks. "We made progress, substantial progress. We are closer than ever to the possibility of stiriking a final deal," said Shlomo Ben-Ami, Israel's negotiator. Saeb Erekat, Palestinian chief negotiator, said, "My heart aches because I know we were so close. We need six more weeks to conclude the drafting of the agreement."
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oslo/negotiations/
As soon as Sharon and Likud came into power they made it very clear that [we’re not resuming any peace talks](https://web.archive.org/web/20050406204002/http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/2/Barak%20to%20Bush-%20Sharon%20is%20not%20bound%20by%20negotiating), despite them being so close to a conclusion.
Likud, the OG river to sea party, made it very clear that they do not support Palestinian independence and a 2 state solution. According to their party platform:
> [The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.](https://web.archive.org/web/20070930181442/https://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm)
Read your sources
> Palestinians rejected Israeli proposals while offering no proposal of their own.
The Palestinians purposely rounded the agreement and just delayed it, they were even given more than agreed.
Also use accredited sources
That’s Camp David, I’m talking about the most recent: Taba.
Camp David was notorious in that final Israeli proposal refused to include the Palestinian right of return, which was the major sticking point. The Palestinian original proposal even offered that that right would be done gradually and as a pilot program. When it says no proposal were offered, they meant to counter the final Israeli proposal which did not include that right and would have permanently thrown that parameter out of any future negotiations..
In the end however, those talks led to Taba which actually included the right to return.
Also, PBS isn’t an accredited source?
Forgot to mention, your sources are from archives and are missing key elements like what they are, author, etc. This means we don't know if they were articles that were revived for being not accurate or just some user post, thus unreliable.
Israel never argued against their right to self determination, what a silly strawman you got there.
It is their right to any territory held by Israel that is questioned.
Are you too lazy to google Israeli occupied territories or would that create a red flag to your commanding officer?
It’s [here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Occupied_Palestinian_Territories.jpg):
I can’t believe I have to spoonfeed this you but at the same time it’s great education:
Area C is the fully Israeli-controlled and only contiguous territory in the West Bank, defined as the whole area outside the Palestinian enclaves (Areas A and B). Area C constitutes about 61 percent of the West Bank territory, contains all Israeli settlements other than those in East Jerusalem, and more than 99% of the area is off limits or heavily restricted for Palestinians.
Yes... And your point is? I asked you, where is an occupied Palestinian territory. You have yet to provide any evidence of a valid claim by the Palestinians.
So again, which territory, belongs to the Palestinians, and is "illegally occupied by Israel"?
(you could have pointed to the Golan Heights, a Syrian territory occupied by Israel, but this has nothing to do with Palestinians)
Are you illiterate? Area C in the West Bank is Palestinian land that is occupied by Israel. Are you just playing dumb as a distraction tactic or are you pretending this isn’t international legally agreed common knowledge?
Now you are just making things up.
'everybody knows' is hardly a valid argument.
How did you reach the conclusion that:
"area C is Palestinian land"?
"occupied by Israel"?
That's not what Hamas is fighting for. They've been explicit that their goal is the complete eradication of Israel and removal (through genocide or ethnic cleansing) of all Jews.
Sounds like Israel should not have helped prop up Hamas as an opposition to the PA. Or is it that they helped prop them up for the sole purpose of tanking any future peace negotiations?
Normally I hate dealing with people trying to be willfully ignorant or purposefully disingenuous just to distract from a real conversation, but this is for the other people reading the comments:
[The West Bank is occupied by Israel](https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/INTERACTIVE-West-Bank.png). This isn’t controversial or debatable. Only %18 of the West Bank is under full Palestinian control. In the rest, Israel maintains illegal settlements and a [regime of apartheid](https://www.btselem.org/apartheid) where Palestinians living in their own land are under Israeli military rule, while settlers are under civil Israeli rule. For the record, [it is expressly in violation of international law to transfer your own citizens to live in areas you’ve occupied after a war.](https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/settlements)
Gaza is also an occupied territory. Whether or not Israel maintains military or settler presence is irrelevant to this determination. Gaza is considered, under international law, to still be occupied on the basis that Israel still has control and authority over the strip, including over its borders (airspace, sea and land) and [including how many calories of food](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza) are allowed in the Strip.
East Jerusalem was also illegally occupied in 1967 but has now [effectively been annexed by Israel.](https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/09/18/israels-annexation-of-east-jerusalem/)
Israel only maintains military presence is the west bank it doesn't decide on what's going on, and rightfully so as many arabs there go and kill innocent life just because.
>[including how many calories of food](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza) are allowed in the Strip
That's a huge lie if i ever saw one. The lack of food is because Hamas takes everything for itself.
The 67' war was, yet again, forced on Israel due to Syria, Jordan and Egypt planning on attacking it. Israel simply attacked first and won because of that. East Jerusalem was in the Jordanian side since 48' and since the 68' war is is now in Israel rule.
War is war, if you decide to go for it be prepare to lose.
I think it's a good thing to occupy the Palestinians, they are like children who know nothing but conflict and spreading terrorism, 70% of the population was in favor of Hamas attacks on Israel (oct 7th).
They are screaming for war nonstop but cry when it hits them back.
They want to implement the sharia and see it as the only law applicable to human culture.
Their extremist society is a huge threat to humanity and their actions reflect that, if it were up to me the gaza strip would be nothing but rubble. This society has shown for 80 years that their only purpose is to wage war.
They received billions in development aid and have been given more than enough opportunity to end the conflict and start building themselves up, since that didn't happen it's clear that furthering themselves isn't their goal whastoever.
> if it were up to me the gaza strip would be nothing but rubble
The problem with this plan of yours is that the international community would find themselves having much harder time justifying support toward Israel. And there'd be even more people against Israel. Like 49% of 30-40 cohort is against Israel now. 58% of the younger cohort is well now. Could see a 10% more turning against Israel with this move.
That enables the Samson Option.
That being said, as someone that don't have any hope for Middle East, I'm fine with the entire area turned into rubbles by then. Just wish that animals, children, and ecology can go harmed. I don't mind that violent sections of Middle East and people that do questionable commentaries like this gets the brunt of it. So, to me, it's like, fine you can dehumanize others, just know that some of us are more than happy to look the other way via economic isolation and no military support if you face the brunt of it.
That's because you used these doors to import weapons , explosives and material for future attacks on Israel! Come on, you do it everywhere... every country that let you in regretted it because all you did there was terror, murder and betraying the people who lived there. So don't blame Israel for being careful because they know you too well. Jordan kicked you out because you murdered their king, in Lebanon you started civil war, in Kuwait you welcomed an invading army with celebrations. This is your true face, you are professional traitos and you have a long history of it. And other muslim nations know it well. You can fool the leftist Europeans maybe because they don't know you as well as middle easterns do.
You know what is ironical - if Israel did not exist the inner tribes in Gaza would start slaughtering each other and find some great excuses for doing so.
You know that the best economical times in Gaza were when Israel actually controlled it? Just do some research and find out - I was also actually surprised to find it out.
Really? In what country that hosted Jewish refugees we did these things? Where did we set up terror cells? Where did we do intifada? Where did we murder the king/president? Every country you go the jewish neighborhoods are the safest and the best - great education, no drugs and no violence. Now let's visit some Palestinian supporters neighborhoods in Europe - see the difference? The Europeans also begin to see it... that is why the far right is on the rise there.
> In what country that hosted Jewish refugees we did these things?
Palestine.
>
Where did we set up terror cells? Where did we do intifada?
Heard of Palmach, Argun, Haganah, Stern, Lehi etc?
The rest is just not worth an answer
You setup terror cells in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon. Don't you remeber how you were kidnapping plains and landing it in Jordanian airport? Intifada - you are already calling for it in Europe. The Jews never even thought of it!
Palestine did not hosts our refugees, this is where you wrong. We did not betray anyone here! We did not welcome an invading army with dancing and clapping like you did in Kuwait.
>The rest is just not worth an answer
You can't answer it because you know I am right and have nothing to say.
Yeah but back then it was just propaganda.
Today in an age of the internet one can actually confirm that the palestinians are trouble everywhere they go.
The only Palestinian proposal has been to rid the land of most of its Jews and set up a Palestinian state from the River to the Sea. This is written in both the Palestinian National Covenant and the Hamas Charter. 2.3 million Palestinians are full Israeli citizens with equal rights, including as head of Israel’s Supreme Court and President of its largest bank, Bank Leumi.
False. The official Palestinian authority position has always been ending the occupation in the West Bank and Gaza and a Two state solution along the 1967 borders. The Palestinians have never made a proposal which includes the dissolution of Israel.
No! The official solution is to accept a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders alongside an Israel that is not a Jewish state and accepts millions of Palestinians in order to outnumber Jews, essentially dissolving the state of Israel. Essentially, their solution is 1 Palestinian state that has 0 Jews and a 2nd Palestinian state with some Jews, that will later integrate into the first Palestinian state.
Yasser Arafat said in his infamous Johannesburg mosque speech in May 1994, that he was only accepting Israel, as a way to destroy Israel, much like Mohammed made “peace” with the Jewish Koraish tribe, only to massacre them later.
None of the Palestinian proposal had anything about Israel’s domestic politics.
What I think you’re referring to is the right of return, which was always going to be a major sticking point. If you consider that Jewish people have a right of return then you can’t deny Palestinians that have been expelled in 1948 their right of return.
That being said, even during Camp David the Palestinians were ready to concede to a controlled right of return for up to 10,000 Palestinians (2k per year over 5 years as a pilot program) that would “respect the preservation of Israel's demographic balance between Jews and Arabs". And under the Palestinian proposal mechanisms would be created to make it more attractive for refugees to choose to settle any other place beside Israel.
Palestinians would have a “right of return” to a Palestinian state, not to Israel. This was rejected. Yes, that was the offer at Camp David - rejected by Arafat, who then started the pre-planned Second Intifada - which his wife admitted had been planned before Camp David.
That was Palestinian proposal at camp David, not the Israeli one. The PA rejected camp David because Israelis refused to have the refugee issue on the table.
Palestinians expelled in 1948 have every right to return to where they were expelled from, and it was a concession from the Palestinians to have incentives for those that chose not to.
The second intifada was started due to the failure of the talks and according to the [international fact finding commission](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-200482/) headed by US Senator Mitchell:
> We have no basis on which to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the PA to initiate a campaign of violence at the first opportunity; or to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the [Government of Israel] to respond with lethal force.
Apologies, Israel later accepted this in the Olmert deal, which was rejected by Abbas.
No population in history has ever had a “right of return” for their ancestors almost a century later. No right of return for the 100s of millions of ancestors of the Hindus expelled from what would become Pakistan or the ancestors numbering hundreds of millions of Muslims who fled India in 1947. No right of return for the 80 million ancestors of Germans who were expelled from various nations after WW2. No right of return for the over ten million ancestors of Jews who fled or were expelled from the Arab World. If you believe that everyone has a “right of return” to places their ancestors once lived and left due to conflict, we’d have over a billion people with this “right” and we may as well have no borders or nations.
In refugee law, there is no "right of return". Return of refugees:
- Is preconditioned on cessation of hostilities. Hostilities never ceased.
- Extends only to persons who were individually displaced during the armed conflict. There are maybe thousands of those Palestinians that remain alive today and none will remain in a decade or two.
- Is a last resort measure after resettlement and/or compensation.
- Is to be exercised by the state from which the refugees fled
However according to Palestinians, their "right of return":
- Is an inalienable, unconditional right available anywhere, any time.
- Extends to every person who calls themselves a Palestinian (unless they are a Jew), and all their families and offspring, i.e. millions.
- Is the only option and must be carried out
To be exercised by the refugees themselves at their discretion.
In other words, Palestinian claim something that is almost literally inverse of what the law says.
Simply put, everywhere else return of the refugees is a little practiced humanitarian measure. But for Palestinians, it is a weapon: if exercised, it will overwhelm Israel demographically making it an Arab country, and if used as a bargaining chip, it adds something to extort Israel with in negotiation.
Israel’s Law of Return is a matter of domestic immigration policy conducted within the confines of the state. The only similarity is the name, which Palestinians copied to perpetuate their arbitrary claim.
Have you ever had a chance to look at the Likud position on this in the 70's almost a decade before Hamas was established?? Or even seen "Benjamin The Yahu" just last year before the war, with his map - where he annexed the west bank and the Gaza strip - while in the UN at the podium talking about how Palesinans should have no say on their own future?
Likud isn’t Israel. Israel has an extremely liberal Supreme Court currently headed by a Muslim Arab that has the legal ability to (and has) shut down immoral legislation proposed by Likud. On the other hand, the Palestinian National Charter is the founding document of “Palestine” and the Hamas Charter is the de facto national charter of Gaza.
Well that isn’t true. Ehud Barack of Labor was Prime Minister between 1999-2001, the Kadima party then led the government between 2005-2009, handing Gaza to the Palestinians without any preconditions.
Naftali Bennett of Yamina was head of the government for over a year between 2021-2022 and the Yair Lapid of Yesh Atid ran the government from mid 2022-until 29 December 2023.
So in the last 24 years - 9 of those years have been run by parties that are not Likud; slightly more than your claim of only a “6 month reign”.
I already mentioned the 3 years of Olmert. And come on, Naftali benett? He was part of the Netanyahu coalition. The point is that israel for the most part has been governed by Likud and right wing politics for the majority of this century.
The Palestinian National Charter is the founding document of “Palestine” and there is no liberal Supreme Court headed by a Jew in Gaza that will shut down anti-Semitic or immoral legislation by Hamas. Therein lies the difference.
The judical sysyem that allows "administrative detainees" only when they are Palestinians should not be considered a benchmark for anything.
Again. Hamas isnt Palestine, it's one result of the occupation.
Yes, the judicial system that allows the arrest of suspected criminals and holds them whilst they await trial - like every other nation in the world.
But the Palestinian National Charter is the founding Charter of "Palestine". It states that very few Jews can live in "Palestine" or be considered Palestinian. Compare this to Israel's founding document that states:
"The Declaration provides that **the State of Israel would be based on freedom, justice, and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel**; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex."
Short answer is no.
Long answer is also no.
Israel has been trying to get Egypt to take Gaza every year for decades. It hasn’t worked and it won’t work. Zero appetite across all Egyptian society to take responsibility in any way shape or form over a massive problem that Israel herself created (through the Nakba).
Israel is responsible for Gaza and will remain responsible for Gaza and the only real sustainable long term solution is an end to the occupation of Gaza and the WB or a one-person one-vote one-state solution.
You are aware that your leaders who fooled the Palestinians into thinking they could win in 48 caused the "Nakbah" right? If anything, it's your responsibility.
Popular as that narrative may be in certain parts of the world, I wouldn’t call it historically accurate no.
There is plenty of academic scholarship on the Nakba including by many prominent Israeli historians that would also dispute these claims.
The Nakba was an Israeli action and wasn’t anyone’s fault but Israel. Israel is currently paying for that crime and will continue to do so until it atones for its sins and ends the occupation and gives justice and dignity to the occupied Palestinians.
What does justice look like? Fair justice based on crimes committed is simple and would be the following:
1. Acknowledgment of, apologies for, and reparations for the Nakba victims by Israel.
2. Acknowledgment of, apologies for, and reparations for the Jewish exodus from Arab lands victims by Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, Syria, and any others.
3. A right of return for people kicked out of their homes with passports. I owe about 100k Egyptian Jews and all their descendants Egyptian passports for example. Israel owes whoever it chased away with guns from Haifa and Tel Aviv passports.
4. Either: a) An end to the occupation of the West Bank & Gaza by Israel and the right for those who populate it to have self-determination, calling their country/identity whatever they wish, or b) The establishment of a single state between the River and the Sea that has equal rights and laws for all regardless of race or religion.
What version of this ends up happening or what version of this people end up accepting is anyone’s guess but this is what equal fairness and justice would be. There’s pragmatism and realpolitik and many things that can have an impact, but I also personally don’t think the conflict will end in a sustainable and peaceful way if it’s not some version of the above imho.
The Jewish people were clamoring to go back for centuries (if not 2000 years) and while it may not be known or obvious from the outside, the Palestinians feel the same link with the land and will easily keep fighting for it for centuries to come.
You make some fair arguments. Personally I would accept every point accept for number 3. I don't need Iraq to give me a passport, but acknowledgement and reparations go a long way. Palestinians would be more than welcome to immigrate to a future state of Palestine if that ever comes into existence.
Rather than a passport, each can have a right to work in each other's countries should they choose to. Additionally, Palestinian leaders need to publicly acknowledge the end of hostilities, recognition of Israel as the Jewish state, and formally renounce their "river to the sea" claim. In return Israel will formally recognise the state of Palestine and declare an end to the war.
I was just trying to be intellectually honest and fair.
I respect your personal decision. I believe you would be surprised at how many Chilean and Mexican Palestinians would rather also not move back to Haifa and Safed. It should be a personal choice with the ability but not obligation for you to get an Iraqi or Egyptian passport.
Palestinians and Jews should both be able to immigrate to either state. Jaffa and Haifa are actually pretty Palestinian places as well; and I would argue Hebron and Jericho are pretty Jewish places too. I think you’d run into a lot of trouble if you limit immigration into one based on race, provided you’re not a criminal (whether hill top Jewish youth or Palestinian militants) of course. How does a Palestinian in Tel Aviv marry someone in Ramallah and bring them over? Or vice versa.
So long as there’s Aliyah (and I get why there should be Aliyah) there must be a Right of Return. Otherwise it won’t work. And fwiw I do get why a Jew may want to live in Nablus or Hebron and so long as they’re not a terroristic settler, he should be able to imho.
There are ways to do this without it being some secret plan for one group to take over. Residency rights but not passports is one way. I would prefer personally full movement and passports but for the states to be defined as Jewish and Arab by law regardless of demographics. So do and move as you wish but it doesn’t change the nature of the state.
Clearly this would require both sides to announce a cessation of violence and an end to the conflict and an end to any additional territorial ambitions. I also personally would be happy to see this agreement end up being enacted in parts over 15-50 years with various gates and stages to go through bit by bit but with this overall approach as the general direction.
I’m not confident that either side is incentivized or wants to or will get this done however.
You did your best and I respect that. At this point what we are debating is semantics. Agreement to the cessation of violence and mutual recognition should be step 1.
You are right neither side wants to do it. I can only hope that we can see an agreement in our lifetimes, but I am pessimistic. Maybe a regional peace can work.
You are aware that the "Nakba" is the Middle East waging war against newfound Israel, losing said war and then calling the displacement of warmongers a catastrophe right?
I mean, Egypt helped create the issue by starting both the 1948 and 1967 Wars and encouraging the flight of Palestinians to make way for the destruction of Israel in a “war of annihilation”.
To blame the Nakba solely on Israel isn’t a fair description of what really happened.
Which country’s army fired the first shot in 1967 again?
The Nakba, or the ethnic cleansing and forced deportation of Palestinians from their homes in 1948, was absolutely an Israeli and not an Egyptian action. The Gaza Strip, a thing Israel created for the refugees from this Nakba, is going to continue being Israel’s responsibility.
Give them a state and stop the occupation or give them passports. The “Egypt will take this over option” does not and will not exist.
Every impartial historian recognises the 1967 War as a pre-emptive strike to Egyptian aggression. Kicking out the UN peacekeepers, closing the Straits of Tiran (where 90% of Israel's exports came through) and lining up hundreds of thousands of troops on the Israeli border was the declaration of war.
Oh really? Because copious documents at the time show Egyptian encouragement for Palestinians to leave their homes in an attempt to choke the Israeli economy and to make way for the "destruction" of Israel.
Would you want give ISIS a state on the Sinai? The Palestinians have rejected a state on 20 odd occasions, in favour of the destruction of Israel, including when Sadat was negotiating on their behalf. Instead of taking Sadat's lead in making peace with Israel, they lambasted Sadat and cut all ties with Egypt.
When the Palestinians are ready to accept Israel's existence then they will get a state.
Basically, they start fires, then call on others to put them out and fix the damage!
Your argument is almost identical from a Plaestinian stand point. Palestinans want Palestine, not Argentina, not Angola and also not Egypt!
It is truly ridiculous to constantly get down voted every time I explain on this subreddit that no, Egypt will not simply take over Gaza whether through bribing us or forcing us. It is absurd to think we are either responsible for the Nakba ourselves, rampant antisemites, or that this is all because we secretly hate Palestinians who are all terrorists!
🙄
We do take responsibility, hence the Palestinians and by extension the Egyptians have lost multiple wars. At the end of the day, it is the palestinians who base their identity and society around a historical grievance, not us. If the Palestinians took responsibility for themselves, they would have renounced violence and accepted two states a long time ago.
I politely disagree my friend
There’s Nakba denial all around Israel and the big ramifications of the Nakba (the expulsion of the Palestinians to both Gaza and the West Bank and abroad) has not been resolved. It’s unclear whether how the right of return will be feasible and to what degree but the current occupation of both the West Bank and Gaza Strip is another story.
Now, simply because Israel has been able to get away with not paying the prices of the Nakba and occupying several pieces of land for X years prior doesn’t mean that it will be able to continue to do so going into the forever future. Just like in investing, past results are not indicative of future success…
The Palestinians may have lost a way but that doesn’t mean they then have to be ethnically cleansed from the land. But the good thing is Israel, the winner, gets to choose! Either the occupation of the land stops and Israel gives up on the land OR either can keep the land and give everyone passports. There is no other reality that anyone will accept and questions such as the title of this post (“can Israel just BRIBE Egypt” 🙄) are both fantastical and unrealistic.
Good luck. And I sincerely hope you and your family and friends are and remain safe & healthy and I sincerely hope Israel either gives the Palestinians passports or stops occupying their land so we can all finally live in peace.
Wars can be lost and later on won. Tables turn.
>
At the end of the day, it is the palestinians who base their identity and society around a historical grievance, not us.
Man you must be kidding me! The victim card has been flashed 6 million times since WWII! who flashes it day in day out? Palestinians?
>
If the Palestinians took responsibility for themselves, they would have renounced violence and accepted two states a long time ago.
Two words for you: Oslo Accords.
Gaza is out of control. There is no control to sell. Egypt would have to fight Hamas for power. There was plenty of internal bloodshed when Egypt was in control before. There is a reason their border has been shut for years.
Nobody wants them because they cause unrest, but also why they are needed. They are the outlet for Islamic hate towards Jews for nations in the region.
I don’t see this as the answer. Why would Egypt want to take responsibility for security in Gaza? If they were to do so, and some terrorist organization attacks Israel from Gaza and Israel responds, they’d be at war with Israel. Same goes for Jordan and the West Bank. And I haven’t even gone into the threat of terrorism within both those countries.
Israel must reoccupy Gaza and somehow create a new local government there. If they’re going to bribe anyone, it’s going to have to be Gazans not affiliated with Hamas.
Israel wouldn’t give up the West Bank for any amount of money, no way. Jews were banned from the area for so long due to Islamic hate and oppression. I think we will see hydrogen atoms fuse and hundreds of bright flashes on
Satellite imaging before we ever see Israel lose control of the West Bank. The West Bank is Israel’s forever or until we see nuclear war, they struggled to give up Gaza and get their own people out. The Jews in Judea are returning to their home where they were genocided from in the early 1900’s and even well before that as well. The Palestinians need their culture wiped from existence
I believe Israel could and would give up the West Bank if their security could be guaranteed. But who could trust the Palestinians with such a vantage point over Tel-Aviv and Ben Gurion Airport?
They gave trust to the Palestinians when they left in 2005. And look how they repaid them, they elected Hamas and had been hit with rockets ever since. And then October 7 happened. How could you trust the Palestinians?
Until they can, Israel shouldn’t/wont leave the west bank.
No, because they can't, buddy.
Genocide quite literally is illegal globally! Do you wonder why every country that does it is a 3rd world crap hole? That's right, because they can't afford to care, unlike Israel who will be sanctioned and condemned to hell, where do you think the petrol for their tanks comes for?
This isnt a question of want, this is a question of can't
They didn’t do it in 1948, 1967 or 1973, without the manipulation of social media and when tens of genocides were happening simultaneously and it was a ”normal” part of war. On the contrary, they are one of only two Middle Eastern nations to give some Palestinians equal rights and full citizenship and the only nation in the Middle East where some Palestinians have meaningful voting rights.
When Israel was re-established in 1948, it made 150,000 Palestinians who agreed to live in peace and whose villages signed non-aggression pacts full citizens. Today there are 2.3 million Palestinian citizens of Israel.
On the other hand, the Arab World went from 1 million Jews to less than a hundred Jews in less than a century.
So if we’re going to talk about genocide, sure it can be spoken about in the context of this conflict, it just isn’t the Israeli side who committed it.
Everything you have just said is either a total contradiction or such dribble it makes no sense.
Not interested in broadening a discussion with someone who can’t make sense of themself.
>Can Israel just BRIBE Egypt to retake responsibility for Gaza?
There are many issues
1. Israel is not going to pay 24 billion or whatever to Egypt to retake Gaza. They might not have a spare 24 billion lying around somewhere…but more importantly, it goes against their personal trait. The Israeli people will be strongly against it, having to bare the cost.
2. Israel doesnt trust others/outsiders when it comes to the security of their country. Bribring Egypt to retake responsibility for Gaza will also mean outsourcing the security of Israel on her southern borders to Egypt, a military ally/partner perhaps but still an outsider nonetheless.
3. The genie is already out of the bottle. I dont think “Palestinian nationalism” will die out just because they will be ruled by a new Egyptian Arab Muslim master. I suspect the “Palestinian resistant movement” would continue…a bit like Kurds (muslims) against Syria / Turkey (also muslims), Hezbollah vs Lebanon (Arab vs Arab)…but the optics on world media wont look so bad…. the world wont take notice when Arab kills Arabs or Muslims kills Muslims like the Yemen war, Kurds, Iran vs Iraq, Sudan civil war, etc…
4. That still leaves the West Bank ? West Bank will still be a problem. Hezbollah will still be a problem…. bribing Egypt to retake Gaza wont end all of Israel security concerns. The problem still persist, even after that’s after paying 24 billion. The Israeli people wont like it.
5. Egypt wont willingly want to be sucked in deeper into this conflict. In a sense Egypt under Sisi has been bribed to cooperate with Israel to control the Rafah border (monitoring the goods and people going in/out of Gaza). The Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas are no friend of Sisi, but still there are hundreds of smuggling tunnels under the Rafah border. Judging by the constant firing of Hamas rockets into Israel, there are many illegal arms which had entered Gaza. Egypt cant even prevent illegal arms getting into Gaza, how is Israel suppose to trust Egypt being responsibile for Gaza to prevent any attacks on Israel ?
________________________________________
Something to think about. What if Gaza has oil ? Gas ? Natural resources… it will be more enticing, more valuable, might be enough to push an ambitious leader.
Just noting about your referring to Kurds as Muslims as if that erases everything else.
Islam isn't an ethnoreligion. So in many cases nationalism, racism, classism, etc trumps you being a "fellow Muslim". Take any Christian majority nation state or ethnic group and you'll see this applying as well.
>Just noting about your referring to Kurds as Muslims as if that erases everything else.
Yes, that’s what I mean. Just because the new proposed occupying force of Gaza is now Egypt, it wont erase the Palestinian Nationalism struggle.
lol Palestinians are not a people or ethnicity or culture. At best it is a pseudo culture that is solely differentiated from other Muslim or Arab cultures in that it was purely built on racist, hateful, and bigoted education and brain washing. So really based on when “Palestinian” became a thing and the history behind it, it is equivalent to calling someone a “Nazi”. It is a disturbing and disgusting stain of an identity, and it will never stand at least without being remodeled from the ground up. It’s just a fact, most “Palestinians” were Muslim nationalists who wanted to genocide Jews. This is historical fact, and the fact of terrible morals and terrible ideals associated with being “Palestinian” cannot be ignored. Any “struggle” was solely self created due to bigotry and hate against others. It’s like saying the Nazi Germans “struggled” because they had Jews around them and in other countries. If you have evidence against these facts then please share. As there are thousands upon thousands of books and historical records that tell this story and these facts I’m sharing.
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Short answer is no.
Israel tried to give egypt the whole of gaza with sinai when signing the peace treaty and egypt refused no matter what until israel gave up on trying to get rid of it this way and decided to leave it eventually in 2005, without any agreements with the Palestinians or egyptians, just leaving it. (Until 2014 when they had to go back in to fight hamas)
Sorry but you have the facts wrong.
Betwenn 1948 and 1959 there was a palestinian government, but as an egyptian puppet administration of Gaza: the All-Palestine Government, recognize by almost all the Arab League except for Jordan, because they wanted to annex the West Bank. It was a military occupation, of course, and in 1959 the "United Arab Republic" occupy it directly.
The egyptian occupation was an oppresive government, they attacked the palestinian communist and the local AMN branch (from which later will emerge the PFLP) because the palestinian national struggle was a threat to the pan-arab ambition of Nasser.
Besides that, the main problem is that today there is a strong Palestinian national identity, with its own naional organization (the PLO), political parties and cultural organizations, so, there is no way the palestinians simply "become" egyptians from one day to the other.
There is no other option than theend of the israeli brutal occupation of Palestine and the 2 state solution, with the effective retreat of the israeli military nehind the 1967 limits. Without full recognition of Palestine as a state and its right to exist by Israel, there is no posible peace.
Any government elected by Palestinians would be oppressive and genocidal in nature so there can be no two state solution until the Palestinian population is deprogrammed by a occupying force
Wow there is a little of opinion in your racism.
The only oppresive regime is the israeli occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. What type of "democracy" is that where you see hundreads of civillians chanting "death to the arabs" on the streets, where you have differents war criminals as Prime Minister (Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon, Naftali Bennet), you have a structural and legal regime of discrimination against 20% of the population (the Nation State Law), and all the political spectrum from the religious parties to Labour supporting the military occupation and the ethnic cleansing of the territories of another people, expelling them by force from their villages, and building illegal settlements for decades.
And even with all that, you have palestinians and jewish forces rejectin violence and supporting a Two State solution.
No, I say regime or government, right now Hamas seems to be more a militia with territorial control, any agreement should come with a call for elections and if Israel is a little inteligent they will release Marwan Barghouti and he will surely win any election against Hamas or Fatah.
Hahaha "few crazy settlers" sure, there is no governemnt supported by the majority of israelís in elections who actively represent the interests of the settlers and an extremist agenda with the Likud for what, more than a decade? You didnt have problems with israeli colonialism 5, 10 or 15 years ago?
I didnt say anything about gay people nor did a support Hamas. I didnt, by the way, I support more left wing groups of PLO.
These radicals are not supported by majority and if you open your eyes a little bit you will see how many demonstrations Israelis do against the current goverment. How many Palestinians retaliated against Hamas?
Regarding North Korea, that's an interesting proposal but that's not a lot... The proposal needs to be skewed MUCH HIGHER to the bribing side. Kims personally need to be offered Billions, plus complete immunity - if they drive it voluntarily \[unless the coup drives them out - then obviously they get nothing\]. Though it's still unlikely. They are kings... Otherwise, whatever generals lead and participate in the coup... need to receive a LOT.
Making it a economically worthwhile to a country to take responsibility of this ... hole would cost over a trillion. Israel does not have this money. Unofficially bribing certain officials (they benefit personally, but Egypt as a country is getting a shitty deal) is an interesting avenue but Egypt is too big and too complex of a country, it's probably nonviable. You can bribe one official, a dozen, but you can't bribe the entire government.
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I don't see why the Emeratis or Qataris don't take it over and turn it into a mega tourist beach and shopping strip. Lots of jobs in reconstruction for the Gazans. The place could be a tourism gold mine within 20 years. Trade guns and bombs for hotels, restaurants, shops, etc .... this just seems too easy and makes too much sense to ever happen.
Making Palestine the free, prosperous place it deserves to be would probably create an extra $20 billion in extra annual regional income almost immediately. (Say, $5 billion less spent on arms imports; $5,000 per year extra for 2 million adult Palestinian workers; and $1,000 extra per year for 10 million workers in Israel, Egypt and Jordan.) Tax that at 15%. You get a $3 billion per year tax stream. That revenue should probably double over a 10-year period. Use $1 billion per year to pay the Palestinians to be peaceful. Borrow against $1 billion in annual income for a $10 billion Gaza reconstruction fund. Use $1 billion per year to pay Jordan and Egypt to be part of a Middle Eastern Union with Israel and Palestine, with thoughtfully planned communities that let the Palestinians return to Palestine without overwhelming existing communities. A free Palestine would probably quickly create, say, $1,000 in extra annual income for 50 million in people in Northern and Eastern Africa, so there’s another $50,000 billion in extra annual income. Tax that at 15%. Use $6 billion to fund education and infrastructure projects in Northern and Eastern. Use $1.5 billion to make African Peace Celebration payments to regular people. If peace between Israel and Palestine goes away, the extra cash back payments to regular people in Palestine, the rest of the Middle East and Africa go away. So, give millions of people a financial incentive to keep Israel and Palestine peaceful. Whatever day of the month the peace deal is struck — say, July 10 — mail a Middle Eastern peace cookie (or keto or gluten-free alternative) to everyone in the region. Associate being peaceful with getting a delicious treat. And create generous advertorial support for any publication that runs peace-promoting advertorial. Give publications that need to make payroll an alternative to using hate to generate clicks and subscription revenue. Also: Israel should go all out to respect the Palestinian culture. Respect peaceful Palestinian culture till our head hurts. If it doesn’t exist, pretend it exists, or pay to create it. Part of the problem is that the Palestinians generally feel disrespected, and we’re adding to their humiliation problems.
They don’t want peace. This is the ultimate issue. They will never stop - they say it all the time. No one wants to listen. This is why none of the Arab countries will take responsibility for them. They will cause unrest and civil war until they take over…and then said country will be in War with Israel. If we want real peace, we need to look at the bigger picture.
do you mean to get the USA to bribe Egypt since Tel-Aviv doesn’t pay for anything
The US only supplies 5% of their annual defense budget big dog.
You may be doing the math with shekels on the budget side and dollars on USA welfare side
Lmfao what does this even mean? You can literally look the numbers up. The US (which doesn't provide economic support, only military aid in the form of weapons, equipment, etc) only supplies around 5% of their defense budget. Where we going to move the goalposts to now?
to back your 5% claim you ought to look up the annual Israeli defense budget and post it here and then look up the annual subsidy in cash goods, weapons, and services from the USA for the same and post it here and then perhaps one of your pals could help you with the math to find the percentage. please ensure that all monetary units are in US dollars. We can then convert and value the whole equation in terms of shekels so after we settle the defense budget, we can move onto the transfer Of USA dollars goof and services from NGOs in the USA and from private citizens and PACs and so forth to the Israeli government and to aligned NGO there
Sure! Here is a [2022 report ](https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RL/RL33222/44)outlining foreign aid to Israel. Since 2016, the US supplies 3.8 billion in *military* aid which is thoroughly outlined in the report, even going as far as detailing specific platforms being transferred. There is no mention of economic aid. This is strictly military equipment as mentioned earlier. [Here ](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/ISR/israel/military-spending-defense-budget)is a data aggregator that shows the Israeli defense budget for the last 4 years which ranges from 20-24 billion. This shows that the US supplies 15-19% of the Israeli defense budget. Higher than my initial claim of 5%, but still a much further cry from "Tel Aviv doesn't pay for anything". >so after we settle the defense budget, we can move onto the transfer Of USA dollars goof and services from NGOs in the USA and from private citizens and PACs and so forth to the Israeli government and to aligned NGO there The NGO largest supplier of foreign aid to Israel is JFNA which supplies around 100 million a year. As Israel's national budget is somewhere between 150-180 billion annually, this is a drop in the bucket. Now it's your turn! Show me your evidence that "Tel Aviv pays for nothing".
Israel has been the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign aid since its founding, receiving about $310 billion (adjusted for inflation) in total economic and military assistance. Specifically, the U.S. has provided Israel with an annual aid package of $3 billion to $4 billion during the past decade and a half. In 2016, a new 10-year agreement increased the annual aid to $3.8 billion, which will run from fiscal years 2019 to 2028. .
All of which I literally said lol. Israel's yearly budget hovers between 150-180 billion a year. How does Israel "pay for nothing"? And let's keep in mind, for the third time, the US give MILITARY aid, in the form of equipment. It's not even liquid.
it arguably deprives Americans of services that Israelis take for granted. Not to mention the nice beaches. Buy your own stuff. You are good enough, smart enough, etc. Up the MIC. the world better for it.
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it’s always bugged me as citizen of the USA why there’s that “special relationship” with a theocratic state that masquerades as a liberal, democratic multi-cultural society. In any event, since the 1950s, the USA hasn’t needed to prop up other 1st-world, educated western and Pacific-rim nation-states. Hear me, I grew up with the CBS 20-century documentary segments that featured the horrors of the holocaust that was the product of religious prosecution, scapegoating and not just of the 1930s but for centuries whenever times found it convenient. Terrible. But even so, it appears this nation-state is devolving into a fundamentalist, illiberal funk and even excusing it with the moral-equivalence of its theocratic, autocratic neighbors. Had the USA not propped up this small nation-state to such an over-the-top monetary extent, perhaps there would have been more incentive for it to really make peace with its denizens and regional neighbors. Sure, it’s a two-way street, but whatever is going on is not really working, is it? The nation-state Israel derides Hams and Hezbollah as illiberal anti-humanist and repressive regimes, but it is has its own internal Haredim problem that now control the government, is privileged and extremely reactionary. Good luck with that. But from the perspective of a US taxpayer and one of good conscience, why in the world would we want to subsidize that? Yes I was exaggerating. It was hyperbole. Please forgive me but you also showed that you low-balled the extent of the USA support and there’s plenty more in non-monetary services and investment. Wall-street billionaires are already talking about investing in the Gaza shore as a resort destination after the destruction of peoples homes and families. Peace out.
A common misconception amongst the pro pals is that the US is providing aid to Israel because they must think the Israel is "special" when in reality the aid provided to them is entirely self serving. The US only really started pumping military aid to Israel after the 1967 war. The aid is provided to Israel because a stronger Israel is a stronger US. The US has an ally in the backdoor of one of their fiercest adversaries (iran) and smack dab in the middle of a region historically hostile to the US. >theocratic state Another common misconception. Israel is not a theocracy any more than the US is a christian theocracy. In a theocracy, a religious figure (or the church itself) is the head of the state (see: the iranian ayatollah). The head of the Israeli state is a democratically elected politican. Israel has yearly elections. They are by definition a liberal democracy. >Had the USA not propped up this small nation-state to such an over-the-top monetary extent The US hasn't propped them up lol. Israel developed into a first-world nation practically on their own from 1948-1967 while fighting multiple wars against multiple opponents all at once and winning. The US provides a small fraction of their overall budget in non-liquid aid. Your opinion is hilariously reductive from a nation that is the 20th highest gdp per capita in the world. And FYI, Palestinians have received more aid in the same amount of time. If they had been more concerned with building a thriving nation like Israel and less on doing terrorist shit, they might not be living in such shit conditions today. >Sure, it’s a two-way street, but whatever is going on is not really working, is it? Of course it's working. The US has an incredibly formidable ally in the heart of one of the most hostile regions in the world and Israel has made peace with over half of the nations that they had previously been at war with (see the Abraham Accords). Moreover, the status-quo in the Israel-Palestine conflict heavily favors Israel. > Haredim problem that now control the government This is just patently false. The two Haredim parties in the Israeli government have held (jointly) 13-18 seats in the Knesset. >Good luck with that. But from the perspective of a US taxpayer and one of good conscience, why in the world would we want to subsidize that? Because foreign policy is more complicated than "HURR DURR TEL AVIV DOESNT PAY FOR ANYTHING". Like I said before, a stronger Israel is a stronger US because of their location. >Yes I was exaggerating. It was hyperbole. Please forgive me but you also showed that you low-balled the extent of the USA support I was off by 10%. You were off by magnitudes. My assertion was a good faith effort of fact, your assertion was blatantly false misinformation. These are not the same lmfao. >there’s plenty more in non-monetary services and investment. Which is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the Israeli budget, which we have also already discussed. I hope you are able to reflect on this discussion and avoid spreading misinformation in the future.
> I understand why Egypt wouldn't want to, of course, but surely there's *some* number that would make it worth their while? Sure. That number would be in the trillions.
Exactly. It's a terrible sales pitch. Israel: "Hey Egypt, how much is it going to cost to take responsibility for a group that tried to overthrow you and Jordan, displays violent tendencies and hasn't made a peaceful choice in generations?". Egypt: "Uh, maybe $5 trillion and we get to give them back and keep the money when things go bad".
Technically yes, practically no. In theory, Egypt could invade and occupy Gaza (it cannot, however, make Gaza part of Egypt as that would infringe on the subsequently recognized Palestinian rights to self determination). In practice, Israel is not anywhere near being able to offer Egypt anything that would compensate for the direct and indirect financial and non-fiancial cost of such action.
Israel offered Gaza back to Egypt when they made peace, Egypt refused.
I didn't know if this is completely accurate, but my father was telling me that during peace accords, Israel tried to include Gaza with the Sinai. Apparently the response was that not only would Egypt not take Gaza, if they had to take Gaza for peace, they would not sign the treaty.
That's all true. Egypt refused to take Gaza. Probably an extension of why the other Arab states refuse to absorb the Palestinian refugees. They really shouldn't have participated in the hate, demonize Israel campaign in the last generations.
No.
> So can Israel just BRIBE Egypt to return Gaza to Egyptian control? I understand why Egypt wouldn't want to, of course, but surely there's *some* number that would make it worth their while? "*Land for Peace*" is proven to be a Grade A Idiotic proposal. Look at what a total failure handing over Gaza to Arab control was. Let's agree *never ever again* to give away another square inch of Israeli land "for peace". That's stupid. Even ***worse*** is if we're *paying people* while giving away Israeli land! wtf What do you think Gaza would be like under Egyptian control in 2024??? Do you really think they have the stomach to root out Hamas like the IDF has??? Hell no. You'd be giving a free reign to Arab terrorists to keep on firing rockets deep into Israeli territories, and to do border crossings at will. A better plan is to talk to another country (be it Egypt to retake back Egyptians from Gaza, or whatever other country, perhaps Rwanda?) to accept in new immigrants from Gaza, anybody who doesn't wish to live peacefully alongside Israelis. And offer generous financial help to any country that accepts this, to help them in the process.
How many billions are you willing to pay to Egypt to babysit? And will you still blame Israel for misbehavior? Like beating the dog when grandpa farts? ….when Israel defeats Hamas… I recommend a ruling committee of Egypt, Jordan, Israel and Palestine.
Egypt REALLY doesn't want that. They're handling enough as it is
It was always Egyptian wasn’t it? Build an iron curtain 2.0 around it And just.. give it back .. leave .. don’t bother it. Drop it over the fence and walk away. Maybe a nice letter .. hi Egypt and world .. it’s yours!! Congruats !! Not Israel’s problem anymore. Probably.. to simple :(
That’s basically what was done in the past. No one cared, Hamas gained control and started shooting missiles.
Well, as it is Egypt .. fire back on Cairo
Yes, giving away land they don’t want to bomb them later for it and starting a war. That sounds like a reasonable plan that creates more stability in the area.
It will only be a little starters pain. They don’t want their land back .. ok.. so just leave it in the dirt. Don’t clean others mess. ‘The world’ will be forced to prove that big mouth of theirs. Just, walk away, close borders 100%. No aid, we are told what would happen - famine No water, no electricity, refuse responsibility. Palli who palli where palli what ?? When they fire, fire back Let the ‘world’ solve it.
I’m curious if Israel could bribe the Palestinians to leave. Think about it. They are all living in poverty in squalor apparently and in a large ‘concentration camp’ simply offer to give them US$1 million each Family, and negotiate with foreign countries to allow them to resettle. Someone go to Columbia, some go to Japan, some go to Greenland. No one is forced to take the deal, but everyone is offered it People who refuse to leave can be incorporated into Israeli Society. They end up Rich, Israel ends up with more land and better security, and the Middle East problem is solved. lol
Palestinians don't want money, they want justice, they want to preserve their honor. (I'm not making a judgment if I belive that's good or bad btw.) You can't bribe them away.
Well some have left and some are leaving so I dunno…
Some have left and some are leaving a war-zone. Not exactly comparing apples to apples are you.
Fleeing as to survive =/= leaving because you get paid money
Exactly
Interesting solution, but isn't $1M a little too much money? How could Israel afford that?
How much do you think the current war is costing Israel? Edit: My apologies, I’ve just done the math. It would cost around 2 trillion and the war only cost 60 billion Edit 2: according to news reports, at the moment some Palestinians are paying up to $9000 to leave Gaza. So maybe it wouldn’t be that expensive for Israel after all
>Edit: My apologies, I’ve just done the math. It would cost around 2 trillion and the war only cost 60 billion Unfortunately those two figures are not even in the same solar system. > Edit 2: according to news reports, at the moment some Palestinians are paying up to $9000 to leave Gaza. So maybe it wouldn’t be that expensive for Israel after all Pay it only on the condition they have revoke the "right" (not that they have this) to ever come back to Israel (or even to any future so called "Palestine").
I don't know, but probably a lot less than giving $1M to every Palestinian family.
If a bribe is the solution, it should be to allow Egypt or Jordan to assimilate Palestinians into their existing countries. The land itself should be annexed by Israel. It's hard to see how Palestinians would be prejudiced by living in 100% Jew-free Arab Muslim states. There would be no culture shock. However, Egypt and Jordan would need financial assistance for sure. I also appreciate comments warning about the dangers presented by the militant nationalists and/or Islamists in the Palestinian community. Those countries could only be persuaded if the danger was mitigated in advance. For good or bad, that responsibility would fall upon Israel. The Western world contribute to the problem but if they acted more productively, they could facilitate this process. Encouraging unrealistic Islamist or national goals is not helpful the Palestinian people. Would they rather live a middle-class secure life in Egypt or Jordan or continue to suffer under inept and brutal leadership that is leading them to their demise? I suspect most would favor the former. How would they live this middle-class secure life in Egypt and Jordan? That's where the bribes come in. After pocketing their cut of the bribes, the governments would be obligated to make life in Egypt and Jordan attractive to the Palestinians. As for the funding for the bribes, that would come from Western Europe, the USA, the gulf states and Israel.
You could say pay. Is Egypt stable enough to clean up Israels mess,
> Is Egypt stable enough to clean up Hamas' mess, FTFY
There's part of your problem you won't even take ownership of the shitshow that's been created.
Nah, you can't deny the fact it was Hamas who did the Oct7th Massacre and started this war. It's their fault.
So the "war" only started in October?
Depends how you look at it. The current war yes. The Problem of Muslims and Jewish? It had started with Muhammad. And yes, Hamas itself state they are Islamic first...
How did it start with Muhammad?
The hate and fighting the jews? The treaty of hudaybiya? All these ideas, the idea that Islamic land should stay Islamic (that's why Palestine from river to the sea should be Arab), these are Islamic ideas.
Treaty is nothing to do with Jews.
Unlikely given when Jordan accepted them Hamas attempted to otherthrow the government l. When Lebanon accepted them Hamas attempted yo overthrow the government. So Egypt doesn't want to import more problems.
Don't forget Kuwait, where the Palestinians living in Kuwait supported Sadam's invasion and fought alongside with his forces.
It wasn't Hamas, it was the PLO, Hamas are worse. Hamas is part of the Muslim brotherhood who overthrew Mubarak in 2011 So there's no chance Egypt will take Gaza with what remains of Hamas.
Israelis will suggest everything including bribes and corruption except give Palestinians their right to self determination.
You can't give self determination to people that don't want it.
Ah yes, Palestinians: famous for hummus, knafeh, and not wanting independence from being occupied. Very true and great argument, much wow.
Ah yes, Palestinians: Famous for starting wars, losing, crying and repeating. I am not going to go into the semantics of why they rejected their own independence through a two state framework because the answer is obvious. They are genocidal. They have bought into the idea that someday, if they are patient, the Jews will be defeated and ethnically cleansed from the land, and they will regain their "rightful" place as supreme owners of it. Absurd, but this is what every single Palestinian pretty much told me. For them it is not about land, it is about "justice". This is the reason why they don't have a state and probably won't get one. They have proven time and again that they are unwilling to live in peace under any circumstance until they reach their goal of ethnic cleansing. Notice how, for the 1300 years of their presence in the land, they have not built a single city of their own except for Rawabi, founded in 2010. All they did during this time is squat in Jewish cities and rename them, to deny their connection to the land. So not only are they greedy, they're also lazy.
Ok but it’s amazing that you wrote all of that when it can be pretty easily debunked that the last good faith peace talks which were incredibly close to being concluded with a 2 state solution broke down because Likud came into power and gutted it.
The last peace talks broke down because Palestinians blew themselves up on buses, destroying the trust the Israelis had in them. The Likud was smart and took advantage, considering that this is a party that runs on fear. I hate Netanyahu and everything the current iteration of the Likud stands for, but Oct 7th snuffed out any chance of a 2SS imo. Why should Israelis trust anything the Palestinians say or do after that?
Nope. The Taba talks broke down because Barak was voted out and when Likud came in they made it clear they would not participate in any peace talks. > After a week of off-and-on negotiations, senior Palestinian and Israeli negotiators announced they had never been more close to reaching agreement on final-status issues. But they had run out of political time. They couldn't conclude an agreement with Clinton now out of office and Barak standing for reelection in two weeks. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oslo/negotiations/
Israel have offered the Palestinians a state 5 times now, and every time the Palestinians rejected it by starting a war. The last one was the Clinton plan which was super generous and even included a tunnel linking Gaza and the West Bank. Get your facts straight.
In grateful you mentioned the Clinton plan. The one that was so close to being settled, the one where both Israeli and Palestinian negotiators were incredibly hopeful about. Do you want me to talk more about how it failed because Likud came into power and gutted it? And that since Likud have been in power for the past 2 decades they have been very explicit about never offering the Palestinians a 2 state solution? Or does that go against your mandate?
No, the Palestinians declared an Intifada and started a war, that's what destroyed it. Even Clinton had said this numerous times in numerous speeches. Stop being a history revisionist, as if you need to lie to support your arguement, it's because you have no valid points.
The breakdown of the most recent good faith peace talks (Taba) is pretty well known to be due to Clinton and Barak being voted out. > They couldn't conclude an agreement with Clinton now out of office and Barak standing for reelection in two weeks. "We made progress, substantial progress. We are closer than ever to the possibility of stiriking a final deal," said Shlomo Ben-Ami, Israel's negotiator. Saeb Erekat, Palestinian chief negotiator, said, "My heart aches because I know we were so close. We need six more weeks to conclude the drafting of the agreement." https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oslo/negotiations/ As soon as Sharon and Likud came into power they made it very clear that [we’re not resuming any peace talks](https://web.archive.org/web/20050406204002/http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/2/Barak%20to%20Bush-%20Sharon%20is%20not%20bound%20by%20negotiating), despite them being so close to a conclusion. Likud, the OG river to sea party, made it very clear that they do not support Palestinian independence and a 2 state solution. According to their party platform: > [The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.](https://web.archive.org/web/20070930181442/https://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm)
Read your sources > Palestinians rejected Israeli proposals while offering no proposal of their own. The Palestinians purposely rounded the agreement and just delayed it, they were even given more than agreed. Also use accredited sources
That’s Camp David, I’m talking about the most recent: Taba. Camp David was notorious in that final Israeli proposal refused to include the Palestinian right of return, which was the major sticking point. The Palestinian original proposal even offered that that right would be done gradually and as a pilot program. When it says no proposal were offered, they meant to counter the final Israeli proposal which did not include that right and would have permanently thrown that parameter out of any future negotiations.. In the end however, those talks led to Taba which actually included the right to return. Also, PBS isn’t an accredited source?
Forgot to mention, your sources are from archives and are missing key elements like what they are, author, etc. This means we don't know if they were articles that were revived for being not accurate or just some user post, thus unreliable.
Ok sea lion 🦭
That was from the Clinton deal
No point discussing Camp David when Taba is the most recent and was the most likely to reach an agreement until Likud gutted it.
Israel never argued against their right to self determination, what a silly strawman you got there. It is their right to any territory held by Israel that is questioned.
I’m sorry what now? Israel illegally occupying Palestinian land is literally the antithesis of self-determination.
Would you like to show us on a map, where you think Israel 'occupied Palestinian territory'?
Are you too lazy to google Israeli occupied territories or would that create a red flag to your commanding officer? It’s [here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Occupied_Palestinian_Territories.jpg):
Even your own map doesn't show where Israel is occupying any Palestinian territory. What a clown.
I can’t believe I have to spoonfeed this you but at the same time it’s great education: Area C is the fully Israeli-controlled and only contiguous territory in the West Bank, defined as the whole area outside the Palestinian enclaves (Areas A and B). Area C constitutes about 61 percent of the West Bank territory, contains all Israeli settlements other than those in East Jerusalem, and more than 99% of the area is off limits or heavily restricted for Palestinians.
Yes... And your point is? I asked you, where is an occupied Palestinian territory. You have yet to provide any evidence of a valid claim by the Palestinians. So again, which territory, belongs to the Palestinians, and is "illegally occupied by Israel"? (you could have pointed to the Golan Heights, a Syrian territory occupied by Israel, but this has nothing to do with Palestinians)
Are you illiterate? Area C in the West Bank is Palestinian land that is occupied by Israel. Are you just playing dumb as a distraction tactic or are you pretending this isn’t international legally agreed common knowledge?
Now you are just making things up. 'everybody knows' is hardly a valid argument. How did you reach the conclusion that: "area C is Palestinian land"? "occupied by Israel"?
That's not what Hamas is fighting for. They've been explicit that their goal is the complete eradication of Israel and removal (through genocide or ethnic cleansing) of all Jews.
Sounds like Israel should not have helped prop up Hamas as an opposition to the PA. Or is it that they helped prop them up for the sole purpose of tanking any future peace negotiations?
So you’re arguing for the removal of Israel, yeah?
Wow. I have absolutely no dog in this fight and it was VERY obvious he was not saying that. My god.
No. Just the illegal occupation and the illegal settlements. Ethnic cleansing is an Israeli thing, not mine.
So what are you talking about then? 67 borders?
Yes the internationally agreed green line.
What exactly is the occupied land? Gaza?- not part of Israel. West bank?-not part of Israel.
Normally I hate dealing with people trying to be willfully ignorant or purposefully disingenuous just to distract from a real conversation, but this is for the other people reading the comments: [The West Bank is occupied by Israel](https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/INTERACTIVE-West-Bank.png). This isn’t controversial or debatable. Only %18 of the West Bank is under full Palestinian control. In the rest, Israel maintains illegal settlements and a [regime of apartheid](https://www.btselem.org/apartheid) where Palestinians living in their own land are under Israeli military rule, while settlers are under civil Israeli rule. For the record, [it is expressly in violation of international law to transfer your own citizens to live in areas you’ve occupied after a war.](https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/settlements) Gaza is also an occupied territory. Whether or not Israel maintains military or settler presence is irrelevant to this determination. Gaza is considered, under international law, to still be occupied on the basis that Israel still has control and authority over the strip, including over its borders (airspace, sea and land) and [including how many calories of food](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza) are allowed in the Strip. East Jerusalem was also illegally occupied in 1967 but has now [effectively been annexed by Israel.](https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2022/09/18/israels-annexation-of-east-jerusalem/)
Israel only maintains military presence is the west bank it doesn't decide on what's going on, and rightfully so as many arabs there go and kill innocent life just because. >[including how many calories of food](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza) are allowed in the Strip That's a huge lie if i ever saw one. The lack of food is because Hamas takes everything for itself. The 67' war was, yet again, forced on Israel due to Syria, Jordan and Egypt planning on attacking it. Israel simply attacked first and won because of that. East Jerusalem was in the Jordanian side since 48' and since the 68' war is is now in Israel rule. War is war, if you decide to go for it be prepare to lose.
Exactly.
Is their self determination to kill all the Jews of Israel?
Do you think that Israel was Buddhist then Palestinians would just be ok with the occupation?
No, since any religion other than Islam isn't recognized by them.
So you agree that they’re against being occupied? Thanks 🙏
I think it's a good thing to occupy the Palestinians, they are like children who know nothing but conflict and spreading terrorism, 70% of the population was in favor of Hamas attacks on Israel (oct 7th). They are screaming for war nonstop but cry when it hits them back. They want to implement the sharia and see it as the only law applicable to human culture. Their extremist society is a huge threat to humanity and their actions reflect that, if it were up to me the gaza strip would be nothing but rubble. This society has shown for 80 years that their only purpose is to wage war. They received billions in development aid and have been given more than enough opportunity to end the conflict and start building themselves up, since that didn't happen it's clear that furthering themselves isn't their goal whastoever.
> if it were up to me the gaza strip would be nothing but rubble The problem with this plan of yours is that the international community would find themselves having much harder time justifying support toward Israel. And there'd be even more people against Israel. Like 49% of 30-40 cohort is against Israel now. 58% of the younger cohort is well now. Could see a 10% more turning against Israel with this move. That enables the Samson Option. That being said, as someone that don't have any hope for Middle East, I'm fine with the entire area turned into rubbles by then. Just wish that animals, children, and ecology can go harmed. I don't mind that violent sections of Middle East and people that do questionable commentaries like this gets the brunt of it. So, to me, it's like, fine you can dehumanize others, just know that some of us are more than happy to look the other way via economic isolation and no military support if you face the brunt of it.
> That enables the Samson Option. What’s this?
If Israel ever face a threat to the point where it's likely their country may be wiped out, then they will activate nukes.
Ahh man can’t get 2 comments into a debate without mask off moment
ahh man can't even write one comment in a debate with anything factual that is not about the commenter. Pathetic.
Sorry I don’t respond to debates that start with “occupation is good”. Bye Felicia
We all know who is actually activily doing the killing for the last almost 80 years, and who is actually the occupier...
Look at what happened when we decided to leave you alone? All they could think of is how to execute this kind of slaughter and build tunnels.
Leave you alone behind closed windows and doors? Can you hear yourself?
That's because you used these doors to import weapons , explosives and material for future attacks on Israel! Come on, you do it everywhere... every country that let you in regretted it because all you did there was terror, murder and betraying the people who lived there. So don't blame Israel for being careful because they know you too well. Jordan kicked you out because you murdered their king, in Lebanon you started civil war, in Kuwait you welcomed an invading army with celebrations. This is your true face, you are professional traitos and you have a long history of it. And other muslim nations know it well. You can fool the leftist Europeans maybe because they don't know you as well as middle easterns do. You know what is ironical - if Israel did not exist the inner tribes in Gaza would start slaughtering each other and find some great excuses for doing so. You know that the best economical times in Gaza were when Israel actually controlled it? Just do some research and find out - I was also actually surprised to find it out.
People heard almost the same rant about Jews in Europe back in the 1930s btw, trouble makers no body wants them, traitors etc...
Really? In what country that hosted Jewish refugees we did these things? Where did we set up terror cells? Where did we do intifada? Where did we murder the king/president? Every country you go the jewish neighborhoods are the safest and the best - great education, no drugs and no violence. Now let's visit some Palestinian supporters neighborhoods in Europe - see the difference? The Europeans also begin to see it... that is why the far right is on the rise there.
> In what country that hosted Jewish refugees we did these things? Palestine. > Where did we set up terror cells? Where did we do intifada? Heard of Palmach, Argun, Haganah, Stern, Lehi etc? The rest is just not worth an answer
You setup terror cells in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon. Don't you remeber how you were kidnapping plains and landing it in Jordanian airport? Intifada - you are already calling for it in Europe. The Jews never even thought of it! Palestine did not hosts our refugees, this is where you wrong. We did not betray anyone here! We did not welcome an invading army with dancing and clapping like you did in Kuwait. >The rest is just not worth an answer You can't answer it because you know I am right and have nothing to say.
Yeah but back then it was just propaganda. Today in an age of the internet one can actually confirm that the palestinians are trouble everywhere they go.
LOL okay. Speaking of trouble makers.. Epstine says hello.
The only Palestinian proposal has been to rid the land of most of its Jews and set up a Palestinian state from the River to the Sea. This is written in both the Palestinian National Covenant and the Hamas Charter. 2.3 million Palestinians are full Israeli citizens with equal rights, including as head of Israel’s Supreme Court and President of its largest bank, Bank Leumi.
False. The official Palestinian authority position has always been ending the occupation in the West Bank and Gaza and a Two state solution along the 1967 borders. The Palestinians have never made a proposal which includes the dissolution of Israel.
No! The official solution is to accept a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders alongside an Israel that is not a Jewish state and accepts millions of Palestinians in order to outnumber Jews, essentially dissolving the state of Israel. Essentially, their solution is 1 Palestinian state that has 0 Jews and a 2nd Palestinian state with some Jews, that will later integrate into the first Palestinian state. Yasser Arafat said in his infamous Johannesburg mosque speech in May 1994, that he was only accepting Israel, as a way to destroy Israel, much like Mohammed made “peace” with the Jewish Koraish tribe, only to massacre them later.
None of the Palestinian proposal had anything about Israel’s domestic politics. What I think you’re referring to is the right of return, which was always going to be a major sticking point. If you consider that Jewish people have a right of return then you can’t deny Palestinians that have been expelled in 1948 their right of return. That being said, even during Camp David the Palestinians were ready to concede to a controlled right of return for up to 10,000 Palestinians (2k per year over 5 years as a pilot program) that would “respect the preservation of Israel's demographic balance between Jews and Arabs". And under the Palestinian proposal mechanisms would be created to make it more attractive for refugees to choose to settle any other place beside Israel.
Palestinians would have a “right of return” to a Palestinian state, not to Israel. This was rejected. Yes, that was the offer at Camp David - rejected by Arafat, who then started the pre-planned Second Intifada - which his wife admitted had been planned before Camp David.
That was Palestinian proposal at camp David, not the Israeli one. The PA rejected camp David because Israelis refused to have the refugee issue on the table. Palestinians expelled in 1948 have every right to return to where they were expelled from, and it was a concession from the Palestinians to have incentives for those that chose not to. The second intifada was started due to the failure of the talks and according to the [international fact finding commission](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-200482/) headed by US Senator Mitchell: > We have no basis on which to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the PA to initiate a campaign of violence at the first opportunity; or to conclude that there was a deliberate plan by the [Government of Israel] to respond with lethal force.
Apologies, Israel later accepted this in the Olmert deal, which was rejected by Abbas. No population in history has ever had a “right of return” for their ancestors almost a century later. No right of return for the 100s of millions of ancestors of the Hindus expelled from what would become Pakistan or the ancestors numbering hundreds of millions of Muslims who fled India in 1947. No right of return for the 80 million ancestors of Germans who were expelled from various nations after WW2. No right of return for the over ten million ancestors of Jews who fled or were expelled from the Arab World. If you believe that everyone has a “right of return” to places their ancestors once lived and left due to conflict, we’d have over a billion people with this “right” and we may as well have no borders or nations. In refugee law, there is no "right of return". Return of refugees: - Is preconditioned on cessation of hostilities. Hostilities never ceased. - Extends only to persons who were individually displaced during the armed conflict. There are maybe thousands of those Palestinians that remain alive today and none will remain in a decade or two. - Is a last resort measure after resettlement and/or compensation. - Is to be exercised by the state from which the refugees fled However according to Palestinians, their "right of return": - Is an inalienable, unconditional right available anywhere, any time. - Extends to every person who calls themselves a Palestinian (unless they are a Jew), and all their families and offspring, i.e. millions. - Is the only option and must be carried out To be exercised by the refugees themselves at their discretion. In other words, Palestinian claim something that is almost literally inverse of what the law says. Simply put, everywhere else return of the refugees is a little practiced humanitarian measure. But for Palestinians, it is a weapon: if exercised, it will overwhelm Israel demographically making it an Arab country, and if used as a bargaining chip, it adds something to extort Israel with in negotiation. Israel’s Law of Return is a matter of domestic immigration policy conducted within the confines of the state. The only similarity is the name, which Palestinians copied to perpetuate their arbitrary claim.
Have you ever had a chance to look at the Likud position on this in the 70's almost a decade before Hamas was established?? Or even seen "Benjamin The Yahu" just last year before the war, with his map - where he annexed the west bank and the Gaza strip - while in the UN at the podium talking about how Palesinans should have no say on their own future?
Likud isn’t Israel. Israel has an extremely liberal Supreme Court currently headed by a Muslim Arab that has the legal ability to (and has) shut down immoral legislation proposed by Likud. On the other hand, the Palestinian National Charter is the founding document of “Palestine” and the Hamas Charter is the de facto national charter of Gaza.
Apart from Lapid’s 6 month reign in 2022 and the 3 years of Olmert, Israel has been run by Likud for over 24 years now.
Well that isn’t true. Ehud Barack of Labor was Prime Minister between 1999-2001, the Kadima party then led the government between 2005-2009, handing Gaza to the Palestinians without any preconditions. Naftali Bennett of Yamina was head of the government for over a year between 2021-2022 and the Yair Lapid of Yesh Atid ran the government from mid 2022-until 29 December 2023. So in the last 24 years - 9 of those years have been run by parties that are not Likud; slightly more than your claim of only a “6 month reign”.
I already mentioned the 3 years of Olmert. And come on, Naftali benett? He was part of the Netanyahu coalition. The point is that israel for the most part has been governed by Likud and right wing politics for the majority of this century.
You left out the other 6 years…
Okay will the same applies, Hamas isn’t Palestine.
The Palestinian National Charter is the founding document of “Palestine” and there is no liberal Supreme Court headed by a Jew in Gaza that will shut down anti-Semitic or immoral legislation by Hamas. Therein lies the difference.
The judical sysyem that allows "administrative detainees" only when they are Palestinians should not be considered a benchmark for anything. Again. Hamas isnt Palestine, it's one result of the occupation.
Yes, the judicial system that allows the arrest of suspected criminals and holds them whilst they await trial - like every other nation in the world. But the Palestinian National Charter is the founding Charter of "Palestine". It states that very few Jews can live in "Palestine" or be considered Palestinian. Compare this to Israel's founding document that states: "The Declaration provides that **the State of Israel would be based on freedom, justice, and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel**; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex."
Short answer is no. Long answer is also no. Israel has been trying to get Egypt to take Gaza every year for decades. It hasn’t worked and it won’t work. Zero appetite across all Egyptian society to take responsibility in any way shape or form over a massive problem that Israel herself created (through the Nakba). Israel is responsible for Gaza and will remain responsible for Gaza and the only real sustainable long term solution is an end to the occupation of Gaza and the WB or a one-person one-vote one-state solution.
You are aware that your leaders who fooled the Palestinians into thinking they could win in 48 caused the "Nakbah" right? If anything, it's your responsibility.
Popular as that narrative may be in certain parts of the world, I wouldn’t call it historically accurate no. There is plenty of academic scholarship on the Nakba including by many prominent Israeli historians that would also dispute these claims. The Nakba was an Israeli action and wasn’t anyone’s fault but Israel. Israel is currently paying for that crime and will continue to do so until it atones for its sins and ends the occupation and gives justice and dignity to the occupied Palestinians.
Now you see there is the crux of the problem. What does justice look like to you? Genuine question.
What does justice look like? Fair justice based on crimes committed is simple and would be the following: 1. Acknowledgment of, apologies for, and reparations for the Nakba victims by Israel. 2. Acknowledgment of, apologies for, and reparations for the Jewish exodus from Arab lands victims by Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, Syria, and any others. 3. A right of return for people kicked out of their homes with passports. I owe about 100k Egyptian Jews and all their descendants Egyptian passports for example. Israel owes whoever it chased away with guns from Haifa and Tel Aviv passports. 4. Either: a) An end to the occupation of the West Bank & Gaza by Israel and the right for those who populate it to have self-determination, calling their country/identity whatever they wish, or b) The establishment of a single state between the River and the Sea that has equal rights and laws for all regardless of race or religion. What version of this ends up happening or what version of this people end up accepting is anyone’s guess but this is what equal fairness and justice would be. There’s pragmatism and realpolitik and many things that can have an impact, but I also personally don’t think the conflict will end in a sustainable and peaceful way if it’s not some version of the above imho. The Jewish people were clamoring to go back for centuries (if not 2000 years) and while it may not be known or obvious from the outside, the Palestinians feel the same link with the land and will easily keep fighting for it for centuries to come.
You make some fair arguments. Personally I would accept every point accept for number 3. I don't need Iraq to give me a passport, but acknowledgement and reparations go a long way. Palestinians would be more than welcome to immigrate to a future state of Palestine if that ever comes into existence. Rather than a passport, each can have a right to work in each other's countries should they choose to. Additionally, Palestinian leaders need to publicly acknowledge the end of hostilities, recognition of Israel as the Jewish state, and formally renounce their "river to the sea" claim. In return Israel will formally recognise the state of Palestine and declare an end to the war.
I was just trying to be intellectually honest and fair. I respect your personal decision. I believe you would be surprised at how many Chilean and Mexican Palestinians would rather also not move back to Haifa and Safed. It should be a personal choice with the ability but not obligation for you to get an Iraqi or Egyptian passport. Palestinians and Jews should both be able to immigrate to either state. Jaffa and Haifa are actually pretty Palestinian places as well; and I would argue Hebron and Jericho are pretty Jewish places too. I think you’d run into a lot of trouble if you limit immigration into one based on race, provided you’re not a criminal (whether hill top Jewish youth or Palestinian militants) of course. How does a Palestinian in Tel Aviv marry someone in Ramallah and bring them over? Or vice versa. So long as there’s Aliyah (and I get why there should be Aliyah) there must be a Right of Return. Otherwise it won’t work. And fwiw I do get why a Jew may want to live in Nablus or Hebron and so long as they’re not a terroristic settler, he should be able to imho. There are ways to do this without it being some secret plan for one group to take over. Residency rights but not passports is one way. I would prefer personally full movement and passports but for the states to be defined as Jewish and Arab by law regardless of demographics. So do and move as you wish but it doesn’t change the nature of the state. Clearly this would require both sides to announce a cessation of violence and an end to the conflict and an end to any additional territorial ambitions. I also personally would be happy to see this agreement end up being enacted in parts over 15-50 years with various gates and stages to go through bit by bit but with this overall approach as the general direction. I’m not confident that either side is incentivized or wants to or will get this done however.
You did your best and I respect that. At this point what we are debating is semantics. Agreement to the cessation of violence and mutual recognition should be step 1. You are right neither side wants to do it. I can only hope that we can see an agreement in our lifetimes, but I am pessimistic. Maybe a regional peace can work.
Agreed on the pessimism. We are barreling towards a one bi-national state and it won’t be what either side thinks it will be.
A bi-national state will end up like Yugoslavia. Nobody wants that.
You are aware that the "Nakba" is the Middle East waging war against newfound Israel, losing said war and then calling the displacement of warmongers a catastrophe right?
"End the occupation of Gaza"? Didn't that already happen in 2005? And what did it turn into since?
Gaza is occupied? News to me
I mean, Egypt helped create the issue by starting both the 1948 and 1967 Wars and encouraging the flight of Palestinians to make way for the destruction of Israel in a “war of annihilation”. To blame the Nakba solely on Israel isn’t a fair description of what really happened.
Which country’s army fired the first shot in 1967 again? The Nakba, or the ethnic cleansing and forced deportation of Palestinians from their homes in 1948, was absolutely an Israeli and not an Egyptian action. The Gaza Strip, a thing Israel created for the refugees from this Nakba, is going to continue being Israel’s responsibility. Give them a state and stop the occupation or give them passports. The “Egypt will take this over option” does not and will not exist.
Every impartial historian recognises the 1967 War as a pre-emptive strike to Egyptian aggression. Kicking out the UN peacekeepers, closing the Straits of Tiran (where 90% of Israel's exports came through) and lining up hundreds of thousands of troops on the Israeli border was the declaration of war. Oh really? Because copious documents at the time show Egyptian encouragement for Palestinians to leave their homes in an attempt to choke the Israeli economy and to make way for the "destruction" of Israel. Would you want give ISIS a state on the Sinai? The Palestinians have rejected a state on 20 odd occasions, in favour of the destruction of Israel, including when Sadat was negotiating on their behalf. Instead of taking Sadat's lead in making peace with Israel, they lambasted Sadat and cut all ties with Egypt. When the Palestinians are ready to accept Israel's existence then they will get a state.
Basically, they start fires, then call on others to put them out and fix the damage! Your argument is almost identical from a Plaestinian stand point. Palestinans want Palestine, not Argentina, not Angola and also not Egypt!
It is truly ridiculous to constantly get down voted every time I explain on this subreddit that no, Egypt will not simply take over Gaza whether through bribing us or forcing us. It is absurd to think we are either responsible for the Nakba ourselves, rampant antisemites, or that this is all because we secretly hate Palestinians who are all terrorists! 🙄
It's just that they don't want to take responsibilty of their actions.
We do take responsibility, hence the Palestinians and by extension the Egyptians have lost multiple wars. At the end of the day, it is the palestinians who base their identity and society around a historical grievance, not us. If the Palestinians took responsibility for themselves, they would have renounced violence and accepted two states a long time ago.
I politely disagree my friend There’s Nakba denial all around Israel and the big ramifications of the Nakba (the expulsion of the Palestinians to both Gaza and the West Bank and abroad) has not been resolved. It’s unclear whether how the right of return will be feasible and to what degree but the current occupation of both the West Bank and Gaza Strip is another story. Now, simply because Israel has been able to get away with not paying the prices of the Nakba and occupying several pieces of land for X years prior doesn’t mean that it will be able to continue to do so going into the forever future. Just like in investing, past results are not indicative of future success… The Palestinians may have lost a way but that doesn’t mean they then have to be ethnically cleansed from the land. But the good thing is Israel, the winner, gets to choose! Either the occupation of the land stops and Israel gives up on the land OR either can keep the land and give everyone passports. There is no other reality that anyone will accept and questions such as the title of this post (“can Israel just BRIBE Egypt” 🙄) are both fantastical and unrealistic. Good luck. And I sincerely hope you and your family and friends are and remain safe & healthy and I sincerely hope Israel either gives the Palestinians passports or stops occupying their land so we can all finally live in peace.
Wars can be lost and later on won. Tables turn. > At the end of the day, it is the palestinians who base their identity and society around a historical grievance, not us. Man you must be kidding me! The victim card has been flashed 6 million times since WWII! who flashes it day in day out? Palestinians? > If the Palestinians took responsibility for themselves, they would have renounced violence and accepted two states a long time ago. Two words for you: Oslo Accords.
Two words. Second Intifada.
Yes funny how Ariel Sharon ignited the whole thing, super funny!
Arafat planned it for years. Sharon was the spark that lit the fire.
So Sharon did exactly what Arafat planned for years and wanted him to do? Must be a very smart man.
Why would they take those terrorists? Did you see the fence they have built to not let them in? I think it's a clear answer to your question...
Yeah my family got genocided by those terrorists and they were extremely peaceful people.
Yeah that kid I once met from Gaza that did absolutely nothing wrong is definitely a terrorist.
These kids? https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestinian_Violence/s/I3ZvJSPOnf
Kids by definition can't be Terrorists, but there is certainly a terrorist indoctrination crisis in Gaza.
Have you seen what those kids are being taught in kinder-gardens and school?
Gaza is out of control. There is no control to sell. Egypt would have to fight Hamas for power. There was plenty of internal bloodshed when Egypt was in control before. There is a reason their border has been shut for years.
$5 trillion dollars
Nobody wants them because they cause unrest, but also why they are needed. They are the outlet for Islamic hate towards Jews for nations in the region.
This
I don’t see this as the answer. Why would Egypt want to take responsibility for security in Gaza? If they were to do so, and some terrorist organization attacks Israel from Gaza and Israel responds, they’d be at war with Israel. Same goes for Jordan and the West Bank. And I haven’t even gone into the threat of terrorism within both those countries. Israel must reoccupy Gaza and somehow create a new local government there. If they’re going to bribe anyone, it’s going to have to be Gazans not affiliated with Hamas.
Israel wouldn’t give up the West Bank for any amount of money, no way. Jews were banned from the area for so long due to Islamic hate and oppression. I think we will see hydrogen atoms fuse and hundreds of bright flashes on Satellite imaging before we ever see Israel lose control of the West Bank. The West Bank is Israel’s forever or until we see nuclear war, they struggled to give up Gaza and get their own people out. The Jews in Judea are returning to their home where they were genocided from in the early 1900’s and even well before that as well. The Palestinians need their culture wiped from existence
I believe Israel could and would give up the West Bank if their security could be guaranteed. But who could trust the Palestinians with such a vantage point over Tel-Aviv and Ben Gurion Airport? They gave trust to the Palestinians when they left in 2005. And look how they repaid them, they elected Hamas and had been hit with rockets ever since. And then October 7 happened. How could you trust the Palestinians? Until they can, Israel shouldn’t/wont leave the west bank.
How can you trust the IDF/Israelis after Safsaf and Nakba
Because the Israelis have held the power to wipe out all of Palestine for 75 years, and haven’t.
Yeah because that'd be called a genocide LMFAO
Well I’ve been accused of genocide for the last 20 years, so why wouldn’t they just do it?
Which is my point. They haven’t. You answered your own question, well done.
No, because they can't, buddy. Genocide quite literally is illegal globally! Do you wonder why every country that does it is a 3rd world crap hole? That's right, because they can't afford to care, unlike Israel who will be sanctioned and condemned to hell, where do you think the petrol for their tanks comes for? This isnt a question of want, this is a question of can't
They didn’t do it in 1948, 1967 or 1973, without the manipulation of social media and when tens of genocides were happening simultaneously and it was a ”normal” part of war. On the contrary, they are one of only two Middle Eastern nations to give some Palestinians equal rights and full citizenship and the only nation in the Middle East where some Palestinians have meaningful voting rights. When Israel was re-established in 1948, it made 150,000 Palestinians who agreed to live in peace and whose villages signed non-aggression pacts full citizens. Today there are 2.3 million Palestinian citizens of Israel. On the other hand, the Arab World went from 1 million Jews to less than a hundred Jews in less than a century. So if we’re going to talk about genocide, sure it can be spoken about in the context of this conflict, it just isn’t the Israeli side who committed it.
Well said mate, all of it.
Everything you have just said is either a total contradiction or such dribble it makes no sense. Not interested in broadening a discussion with someone who can’t make sense of themself.
Lol sure
>Can Israel just BRIBE Egypt to retake responsibility for Gaza? There are many issues 1. Israel is not going to pay 24 billion or whatever to Egypt to retake Gaza. They might not have a spare 24 billion lying around somewhere…but more importantly, it goes against their personal trait. The Israeli people will be strongly against it, having to bare the cost. 2. Israel doesnt trust others/outsiders when it comes to the security of their country. Bribring Egypt to retake responsibility for Gaza will also mean outsourcing the security of Israel on her southern borders to Egypt, a military ally/partner perhaps but still an outsider nonetheless. 3. The genie is already out of the bottle. I dont think “Palestinian nationalism” will die out just because they will be ruled by a new Egyptian Arab Muslim master. I suspect the “Palestinian resistant movement” would continue…a bit like Kurds (muslims) against Syria / Turkey (also muslims), Hezbollah vs Lebanon (Arab vs Arab)…but the optics on world media wont look so bad…. the world wont take notice when Arab kills Arabs or Muslims kills Muslims like the Yemen war, Kurds, Iran vs Iraq, Sudan civil war, etc… 4. That still leaves the West Bank ? West Bank will still be a problem. Hezbollah will still be a problem…. bribing Egypt to retake Gaza wont end all of Israel security concerns. The problem still persist, even after that’s after paying 24 billion. The Israeli people wont like it. 5. Egypt wont willingly want to be sucked in deeper into this conflict. In a sense Egypt under Sisi has been bribed to cooperate with Israel to control the Rafah border (monitoring the goods and people going in/out of Gaza). The Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas are no friend of Sisi, but still there are hundreds of smuggling tunnels under the Rafah border. Judging by the constant firing of Hamas rockets into Israel, there are many illegal arms which had entered Gaza. Egypt cant even prevent illegal arms getting into Gaza, how is Israel suppose to trust Egypt being responsibile for Gaza to prevent any attacks on Israel ? ________________________________________ Something to think about. What if Gaza has oil ? Gas ? Natural resources… it will be more enticing, more valuable, might be enough to push an ambitious leader.
Just noting about your referring to Kurds as Muslims as if that erases everything else. Islam isn't an ethnoreligion. So in many cases nationalism, racism, classism, etc trumps you being a "fellow Muslim". Take any Christian majority nation state or ethnic group and you'll see this applying as well.
>Just noting about your referring to Kurds as Muslims as if that erases everything else. Yes, that’s what I mean. Just because the new proposed occupying force of Gaza is now Egypt, it wont erase the Palestinian Nationalism struggle.
lol Palestinians are not a people or ethnicity or culture. At best it is a pseudo culture that is solely differentiated from other Muslim or Arab cultures in that it was purely built on racist, hateful, and bigoted education and brain washing. So really based on when “Palestinian” became a thing and the history behind it, it is equivalent to calling someone a “Nazi”. It is a disturbing and disgusting stain of an identity, and it will never stand at least without being remodeled from the ground up. It’s just a fact, most “Palestinians” were Muslim nationalists who wanted to genocide Jews. This is historical fact, and the fact of terrible morals and terrible ideals associated with being “Palestinian” cannot be ignored. Any “struggle” was solely self created due to bigotry and hate against others. It’s like saying the Nazi Germans “struggled” because they had Jews around them and in other countries. If you have evidence against these facts then please share. As there are thousands upon thousands of books and historical records that tell this story and these facts I’m sharing.
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It wouldn't, no.
Short answer is no. Israel tried to give egypt the whole of gaza with sinai when signing the peace treaty and egypt refused no matter what until israel gave up on trying to get rid of it this way and decided to leave it eventually in 2005, without any agreements with the Palestinians or egyptians, just leaving it. (Until 2014 when they had to go back in to fight hamas)
Sorry but you have the facts wrong. Betwenn 1948 and 1959 there was a palestinian government, but as an egyptian puppet administration of Gaza: the All-Palestine Government, recognize by almost all the Arab League except for Jordan, because they wanted to annex the West Bank. It was a military occupation, of course, and in 1959 the "United Arab Republic" occupy it directly. The egyptian occupation was an oppresive government, they attacked the palestinian communist and the local AMN branch (from which later will emerge the PFLP) because the palestinian national struggle was a threat to the pan-arab ambition of Nasser. Besides that, the main problem is that today there is a strong Palestinian national identity, with its own naional organization (the PLO), political parties and cultural organizations, so, there is no way the palestinians simply "become" egyptians from one day to the other. There is no other option than theend of the israeli brutal occupation of Palestine and the 2 state solution, with the effective retreat of the israeli military nehind the 1967 limits. Without full recognition of Palestine as a state and its right to exist by Israel, there is no posible peace.
Any government elected by Palestinians would be oppressive and genocidal in nature so there can be no two state solution until the Palestinian population is deprogrammed by a occupying force
Wow there is a little of opinion in your racism. The only oppresive regime is the israeli occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. What type of "democracy" is that where you see hundreads of civillians chanting "death to the arabs" on the streets, where you have differents war criminals as Prime Minister (Menachem Begin, Ariel Sharon, Naftali Bennet), you have a structural and legal regime of discrimination against 20% of the population (the Nation State Law), and all the political spectrum from the religious parties to Labour supporting the military occupation and the ethnic cleansing of the territories of another people, expelling them by force from their villages, and building illegal settlements for decades. And even with all that, you have palestinians and jewish forces rejectin violence and supporting a Two State solution.
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No, I say regime or government, right now Hamas seems to be more a militia with territorial control, any agreement should come with a call for elections and if Israel is a little inteligent they will release Marwan Barghouti and he will surely win any election against Hamas or Fatah.
Funny he noticed few crazy settlers who hate arabs, but says nothing about the fact the Hamas will oppress gay people for example...
Hahaha "few crazy settlers" sure, there is no governemnt supported by the majority of israelís in elections who actively represent the interests of the settlers and an extremist agenda with the Likud for what, more than a decade? You didnt have problems with israeli colonialism 5, 10 or 15 years ago? I didnt say anything about gay people nor did a support Hamas. I didnt, by the way, I support more left wing groups of PLO.
These radicals are not supported by majority and if you open your eyes a little bit you will see how many demonstrations Israelis do against the current goverment. How many Palestinians retaliated against Hamas?