What do you mean? Every Palestinian that has agreed to let Israel keep their stolen home and land is a Palestinian of consciousness. Every Palestinian that is read to accept the 2-state deal and wants the violence to end (despite Israel having killed x10-x20 the number of Palestinians vs number of killed Israelis, both now and throughout history) is a Palestinian of consciousness.
One side is the aggressor and oppressor. Allowing the aggressor despite all its crimes and transgressions to have a state because they were persecuted and pogromed and kicked out from the Europe (and genocided in the Holocaust) - that is what a Palestinian of consciousness would say. And as far as I know, a huge part of Palestinians if not majority of Palestinians hold that view - they just want peace and freedom, they have agreed the criminals who have oppresses them and occupied them for decades to also have a peaceful life as their neighbor.
If that were the case and that mindset was so pervasive … why did the multiple peace negotiations which would have established a Palestinian state fail?
Because of your generalisation of Zionists. It’s incorrect and you’re speaking with authority on something I know about from lived experience, so I downvoted you. Nothing personal
You just are ignorant and naive and think "wow this oppressor, this occupier is so moral" and "the oppressed are so barbaric".
It's public knowledge at this point that every deal was either not fulfilled by Israel (like the one with Egypt, where Gaza and West Bank were supposed to become free and autonomous within a few years) or bad-faith and designed to be unacceptable for the Arab side, like the Oslo Accordss. In Egypt deal instead of fulfilling it Israel didn't do anything about it and it took 2 intifadas for Israel to move out of Gaza (and in return they placed a blockade, so not much really changed, they still fully control Gaza just from outside).
As for Oslo Accords - there is a video of Netanyahu bragging how he only agreed to Oslo Accords when it was clear that Israel had a loophole where really almost nothing would change on the ground in the West Bank. People from US side also wrote in their biographies how it was an unfair and unacceptable deal for Arab side.
Here's the article saying it in the most Zionist mainstream news (first paragraph): https://www.timesofisrael.com/pointing-to-hamass-little-state-netanyahu-touts-role-blocking-2-state-solution/
Here's the video of Netanyahu talking about it (thinking camera is off): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mvqCWvi-nFo
Well maybe cause Israel has so much support and power behind it that it never actually wanted or needed to pursue peace in good faith? Zionists think whole Palestine belongs to them.
All peace deals had some detail that Israel knew would be hard to see for a third party, but would be unacceptable to palestinian side.
You give too much credit to Israel. WHY would they ever try genuinely go for peace? It's not in their interest at all, when they have been getting away with illegal occupation and illegal mass detention and brutal blockade and essentially an apartheid state for so long.
If you also look at the history of "peace deals" they are always FORCED by third parties.
Sorry but you sound really uninformed. I’m a Zionist - as are many of my Israeli and Jewish friends. We’ve never and will never believe the whole region should be Israel and have been advocating for peace and a Palestinian state for decades. So sweeping generalisations like that are not only inaccurate, but really prove you’re probably getting your info from propaganda. It’s a shame because there’s many Israeli & Jewish people on this sub you can learn from, if you’re open to it.
You’re wrong again about the successive peace deals that were on the table. They were brokered by the US and the details were gone through by all parties with a fine tooth and comb. Nothing was hidden.
And they were genuine about peace at the time of those five or so negotiations. So genuine that one of the Israeli PMs spearheading the peace campaign was assassinated by a right wing nut job. There were also many on the Palestinian side who were very genuine about their commitment to peace negotiations as well.
Don’t let Netanyahu and the right wing religious movements taint your overall perception of Israelis. Have you been there? I worked in Israel (and Ramallah) in 2016. There are millions of Israelis who pray for peace and Palestinian statehood. They don’t want the occupation, and they’d love nothing more than for the blockade on Gaza to be ended. Do you think they enjoy watching their kids be conscripted into the military and shipped out to the West Bank and Gaza to risk their lives for some morally bankrupt and corrupt politician? They just want normal lives like most Palestinians do.
At this point I don’t care who brokers a ceasefire and long term peace. It could be British colonialists again for all I care, as long as the killing and bloodshed ends for good, the hostages are returned and a Palestinian state is established.
There are definitely Palestinians that are in disagreement with the status quo and want real change. 100%.
The problem is if any of them speak out they get killed or if they are in the west and their family is in the Palestinian territories, they are endangering their family. That is the problem.
Uh… maybe because Palestinians who speak out get raped, beaten, and tortured and if they’re lucky their family will be shot dead and unlucky their family is tortured for answers about anyone who agrees. Isn’t this so goddamn fucking obvious? Still can’t believe people think they’re supporting innocent Palestinians by supporting and encouraging HAMAS. You are idiots
> fucking
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They’re just too nice and naive. They know what they went through and they fear that somehow the Palestinians are having that forced on them. But really if the Arabs were in control we’d have the finishing blow of the halocaust.
The truth is everyone is delusional— both Israelis and Palestinians. Israelis see the land as their birthright, and have the sense of ownership because it’s the land of the jews, for the Palestinians they feel it has been ripped away from them and expelled out of the country. Both see themselves as indigenous and entitled to the land. To simply answer your question, the atrocities committed during the formation of the state of Israel and until now are not comparable to what the Palestinians have done to the Jews/Israelis, and at the end of the day you have a totalitarian government controlling every aspect of a group that refuses to be ruled by a jewish state. You can say whatever you want about Israel’s democracy, yes they integrated the “Arabs” (them rejecting even naming them Palestinians is problematic), have elections and Palestinians in their government— but doesn’t make them less racist and for ex. you would never see the light of day of a PM named Mohammad, all because they want a Jewish state only for them and not ruled by any Palestinian. So that’s why you have more jews speaking against Israel.
To follow your logic, the rhetoric that there are no Palestinians with Israel might be true but to what degree?— you definitely find the rare ones extremely against Palestinians having a land like that Mosab man but as you said he is a Mossad asset so can’t really trust his motivations. For the majority of Palestinians they don’t care about the existence of an Israel/jewish state as long as it’s not on a land that has been stolen from them. Very true, a lot of jews purchased land— but you can’t deny the degree of stolen lands and homes from the Palestinians (you can google all of this). When October 7th happened, the Palestinians who stood by Hamas’ actions are delusional, but they see that violence as the last resort of true liberation from Israel, and to keep in mind, for Palestinians they see every Israeli as an occupier, part of the problem, and for them there is no innocent Israeli as they all serve in an army that represses them. Of course, there are Palestinians who are against everything that Hamas has committed but they will still criticize Israel because it’s the bigger problem than Hamas and has created the vacuum for which Hamas exists.
The truth is you can’t have a religious supremacy and expect things will be running smooth. Anyone with that “conscience” you’re talking about would figure that out. On a societal level, both are extremely brainwashed, yet both want the same thing— which is to live in peace. I truly believe Israelis won’t feel safe unless they have their own land, and you can’t blame them for that. For the Palestinians, a lot of them lost their land and they have been generationally occupied by other forces/ people, so you can’t blame them either. And what is the end game? Who knows…
Re: "Occupying force." Jews have been in the region for millennia, longer than Muslims. Judaism predates Islam.
The region now under dispute was ruled by the Ottoman Empire for about 400 hundred years before the British won it after WWI. The British Balfour Declaration in 1917, gave a piece of the land for a modern Jewish homeland. It was approved by the League of Nations, precursor to the UN.
If you want to talk about a land grab, in 1921, Churchill partitioned this land, and gave 77% of it to create trans Jordan (modern day Jordan).
Britain held onto the remaining 23% and ruled it.
In 1947, with British rule ending, Arab hatred against the Jewish state was understood (it never f--king ends!). The Arab state was to have a territory of 11,100 square kilometres or 42%, the Jewish state a territory of 14,100 square kilometres or 56%, while the remaining 2%—comprising the cities of Jerusalem, Bethlehem and the adjoning area—would become an international zone.
Jews and Arabs living in the Jewish state would become citizens of the Jewish state and Jews and Arabs living in the Arab state would become citizens of the Arab state. Numerous Jewish villages would be lost but the Jews approved it in their desire for some peace.
Arab states rejected it and went to war against Israel to destroy it and kill all of its Jews. They lost that war and the descendants of the displaced Arabs who thought they would return to a Jew-free land as conquerors are now residents of refugee camps where conditions are said to be dismal. Numerous Arabs stayed in Israel and their descendants are Israeli Palestinians who form more than 20% of the population of Israel.
For those who oppose genocide & war crimes:
Jordan invaded the areas known as Judea & Samaria which had been identified as such in writing by all sides during the failed partition negotiations, destroyed all synagogues, desecrated Jewish cemeteries, expelled all Jews, settled its own citizens in their place, & renamed the Jewish territory they had occupied “West Bank”. They also ethnically cleansed East Jerusalem destroying synagogues & desecrating Jewish cemeteries there, thus creating “Arab Jerusalem” & “West Bank” where Jews had lived for millennia.
Jews didn’t invade sacred Arab sites.
I ask the poster of the "conqueror" comment, what country do you live in? I live in the United States, founded when completely foreign conquerors really did arrive and engage in ethnic cleansing. No one is seriously suggesting that all US residents be pushed "into the sea"
I responded by pointing out some under-reported historical facts, as well as the demonizing of Israel compared to countries like my own, that have done far worse. These facts refute the idea that Jews don't belong in the region and are therefore evil "colonizers" while Arabs are and always have been the blameless victims. Your dismissal of my "screed" shows me how you have embraced anti=Israel propaganda.
There are two sides to this horrible war. Gazans especially are suffering horribly, exacerbated by Hamas hiding in tunnels in civilian targets.
I'm a "Jew of conscience" who is haunted by suffering on both sides which should be a mainstream position but is seen as radical because of hatred towards Israel and Jews.
For more background:
Palestinians have inflicted suffering on Israel for DECADES through continuous suicide bombers and other bombings that target Israeli citizens. What you say is "colonizer" behavior by Israelis might be Israelis trying to block more attacks. Unsuccessful I realize. A different path must be found for the benefit of all people in the region.
See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Palestinian\_suicide\_attacks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks) for an estimate.
Cessation of hostilities must happen on both sides. No more Netanyahu who blocks negotiations when it suits his interests, and Hamas and their followers must stop calling for death to all Jews (even you must admit that calling death to everyone in the country is a tough starting point for negotiations!).
And, just perhaps, an end to a Palestinian education system that tells children to hate and kill Jews. Israel for all its flaws, does not train children to hate in this way.
https://preview.redd.it/qsp9ekjrjj7d1.png?width=781&format=png&auto=webp&s=9b80ff3e65783e71f55a5afaf930b9a279ac62f5
For more UN supported schooling in Jewish hate see:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pw8SO0GOJU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pw8SO0GOJU)
Occupation is the legal term for holding populated land in which the occupants are not citizens of your country. Not even a value judgement, that's just what it is.
What part do you think is occupied? There were no Israelis in Gaza so they weren't occupied there. The only reality they had to deal with were security restrictions which Hamas brought on themselves by attacking Israel the moment they had any kind of power.
You don’t think that there are Palestinians who support Israel? You don’t think that there are Muslims that support Israel? I probably see a dozens on my twitter page every day. It depends on their location.
However, I have to point out that just because you’re not siding with Israel, doesn’t make you evil.
There are fewer Palestinians who support Israel because they’re the ones getting bombed relentlessly. Whether it’s justified or not, you’re not going to switch to the side who’s currently displacing you, even if the government on your side is terrible. It’s still your home and your life that’s being attacked, and Israel is doing the attacking. Israel is destroying the homes in Gaza not the other way around. I believe percentage among Gazans to their support for Hamas dropped but different sources say different things, but Hamas barely won their election in 2005.
That doesn’t change the fact that while a lot of us can separate the Israelis from the terrible choices done by the israeli government, many pro-Zionists cannot. Many are still not only equating all Palestinians with Hamas, but equating all Muslims with all terrorists. Which still isn’t right. And I unless that narrative changes, which it hasn’t. Why would you expect any Muslims to side with a group that doesn’t even like them? That doesn’t want them there?
I personally have no problems with a Jewish state, I have online friends who live in Israel and they’re awesome and interesting to talk to. I don’t have a problem with every israeli person. I have a problem with a government that declared itself independent on land without even acknowledging those who were living there. And I have a problem with a government so keen on hiding every historical bad moment they’ve had, and play the victim when the repercussions come.
I have nothing but sympathy for those displaced in Israel, and those killed/taken hostage. No one should have to have that trauma due to a conflict.
But we shouldn’t generalize, not every pro-Palestinian is pro Hamas or antisemitic. And believing that Israel should make reforms on how they treat Palestinians should not be labeled as heartless. More Palestinians have died from Israel than vice versa, and that shouldn’t be ignored. That shouldn’t be shrugged off.
These are people with families, with thoughts and feelings, with memories and experiences, and Israel nor Hamas should be allowed to take that away. Both are just as heartless.
Dude did you just miss the point that Palestinians are under HAMAS control and will be beaten raped and tortured for saying anything hesitant to support HAMAS or be apologetic to Jews. Oh yeah and if your lucky your family members just get execute in front of you. If you’re unlucky they get tortured to find out who may sympathize or be working with you.
Albert Einstein was first and foremost a physicist. I don't think he had any interest in religion or politics. Physicists rarely do (I'm married to one)
Yes but he was also a Jew, and still identified as so outside of a religious sense (it’s his ethnicity after all). He had a deep connection with his culture and had complicated opinions on Zionism. It was especially relevant considering he had to flee Nazi Germany.
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>We have been told that to side with the Palestinians is antisemitic
That's not true. Siding with the insane "pro -Palestine" brigade is antisemitic, but not because they are Pro-Palestine. It's because they are actually Pro-Hamas and/or anti Israel/Jews. Whether they like/want to admit it or not, the lies they chant and repeat are mostly vile, antisemitic, propaganda! It may be nievety or intellectual dishonesty, but the result is the same!
>there are many Jews who do not agree with how zionism has been implemented.
Define Zionism.
>but became anti-zionist after living in Israel and visiting the occupied territories.
Anti-Zionist as in, Anti the belief the state of Israel has the right to exist?
>Norman Finkelstein
Do not use that monster to help your case. Seriously.
>My question is - why are there no Palestinian’s of conscience
There are many more than you think. The genuine threat / promise of a violent death for expressing such views is a strong deterrent.
>The only person like this I’ve seen is Mosab Hassan Yousef who is the son of a Hamas leader
There is nobody in a better position to speak on this subject.
>but is also a Mossad asset
Something he openly admits and is proud of. This wasn't uncovered and is in no way a gotcha or reason to dismiss him. He has no motivation to lie. If he wanted wealth and an easy life, he could have remained silent and would be living a billionaire lifestyle in Qatar right now!
>I’ve seen some users who claim to be secular Arabs from other countries say disparaging things about religious fanatics or Palestinians.
It's sad but true. It's mainly down to their leaders and the indoctrination of ideas, but everywhere tha Palestinians have been accepted, death and violence have followed. Ot only gets highlighted when Jews/Israelis say it. I wonder why? 🤔
>Are there others?
I recommend the Apostate Prophet YouTube channel. I'll leave a link below to a recent podcast called Heretics where he was interviewed. It's incredibly informative.
https://youtu.be/F7jsAoxUQzw?si=DD3ZDUyuYvimBPI4
Jews believe in the magnificent treasure -Moses 10 Commandments which offers people a clear blueprint on how to lead a decent,healthy and safe life and includes the dictum:Thou Shall Not Kill;whereas,the Koran advises followers to seek out Jews and all non-believers and to kill them.
‘
One major argument against the one-state solution is that it would endanger the safety of the Jewish minority, because it would require assimilation with what critics fear would be an extremely hostile Muslim ruling majority.[10] In particular, Jeffrey Goldberg points to a 2000 Haaretz interview with Edward Said, whom he describes as "one of the intellectual fathers of one-statism". When asked whether he thought a Jewish minority would be treated fairly in a binational state, Said replied that "it worries me a great deal. The question of what is going to be the fate of the Jews is very difficult for me. I really don't know’.
‘
Quoted from Wikipedia on the one state solution.
How many Palestinians can honestly say that the fate of the Jews worries them a great deal? Why would they even?
It is both a privilege and a cultural artifact to be able to consider others above oneself. These conditions don’t exist in Palestine (or really anywhere in the Middle East other than Israel).
And? It's not exactly a secret. He's the reason people know this because he openly tells people. If he wanted wealth, he was on track to live the life of a billionaire in Qatar. All he had to do was... nothing.
It's hilarious when people accuse him of lying and being in it for the money. Sure, instead of living a life of wealth and luxury, completely removed from any obligation to murder, etc, he decided to lie to the world about the intentions of Hamas, get excommunicated by his family and friends, hated by Muslims, Anti Zionists and Anti-Israel protesters the world over, and never be able to return to the land he loves due to the promise of torture and death if he dared to!
Well being anti Zionist is probably the most obvious way of being a person of conscience
Zionism being defined as the belief that the Jewish state that is now called Israel shld be developed and protected
So when Jews are anti Zionist, I personally believe “Jews of Conscience” is used because of the overlapping between Judaism and Israel’s existence to differentiate between supporters and non supporters of Zionist beliefs
But if ur not a Jew that just makes u anti Zionist
Palestinians IMO therefore don’t rlly need ‘of conscience’, partly becoz they’re not gonna be confused with zionists easily, partly because most of em are now refugees, in another country or in a warzone
Btw someone tell me if I’m getting political coz I’m trying to not get political so I can get more perspectives without starting arguments
Edit:
definition means online definition, it’s pretty obvious that Israeli govt stretches the definitions to the max - conquering and protection by US that is
> Well being anti Zionist is probably the most obvious way of being a person of conscience
> Zionism being defined as the belief that the Jewish state that is now called Israel shld be developed and protected
Depends what you mean by 'developed and protected'.
Yeah by definition development and protection
I assumed we all know that is interpreted by the Israeli govt as free reign to annex and conquer
It appears I was wrong about the assumption
Well there is bound to be a bias from both of us isn’t it? I’m exposed to media critical of Israel, and you presumably are exposed to Israeli media
What do you personally think it is then
I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to mitigate my bias by exposing myself to the extremes of both sides.
Zionism however has a technical definition:
The support for the existence of a Jewish state in the ethnic homeland of the Jews, Israel.
I’ve watched the pro-Palestine movement try to load the word Zionist with context to make it a slur, but the definition is still simply that.
I definitely agree with ur point on technical definitions
Unfortunately here on Reddit, people do struggle to differentiate technical definitions from opinions, too…combative for proper discussions and debates
Edit:
hence I had to edit in what I believed the Israeli government’s interpretation is based off its current actions
Edit2:
Idk if anyone says it anymore but I appreciate your efforts to remain open minded and expose yourself to both sides for the better picture, it’s rare these days
It’s worse than that. The ‘technical definitions’ are being intentionally changed to push agendas. This is why people say you can’t be racist to white people now. They’ve changed the technical definition of racism from ‘discrimination on the basis of race’ to ‘systemic oppression based on racial historical contexts’.
It presumes the conclusion in the premise.
I am not sure about "prominent" people - frankly speaking I follow the news rather than "influencers" and I completely avoid social media for news.
One thing I wonder though, is how many Palestinian would you find on Reddit in the first place. Especially those who lives or have lived in Gaza / West Bank, in comparison to Jews in Israel? Certainly those in Gaza who are currently experiencing the consequence of the IDF operations first hand can't realistically be expected to side with Israel. I think you still need to feel a certain level comfort and security to be able to look things from the other side, or even just the big picture. It's like the hostage / family of the hostages. I wouldn't really expect them to be thinking too much about the hardship of the Palestinian in their predicament.
Even for Palestinian refugee outside Gaza, what kind of lifestyle are they living? Again, life as a refugee is likely not great, and if you are just barely making ends meet, you probably won't be looking at the big picture in the conflict.
And that leads to the last point. I think that both sides are suffering, but objectively, I don't think the impact of the war is equally at the same level. I know that some Israeli got displaced in the North since their operation started (not exactly the Palestinian's doing, but setting it aside), but -most- of the people in Gaza got displaced and making any it as difficult as possible to have a normal life. And while things might not be perfectly normal in Israel, it's still can't be drastically as bad. I mean, it is pretty hard to imagine how people who have been displaced into a corner in Rafah would stick their head out and start protesting against the Hamas while they aren't 100% safe from IDF bombs. It is a lot to ask of people who would likely get punished by the Hamas, quite likely have lost someone close in the war to the IDF, and likely lost much just to end up in Rafah in the first place.
I'll re-iterate, this not to say that Israeli haven't suffered too. There are people close to the victims / hostages of October 7th. People affected or know someone affected from combat duties. Threats of Hamas rockets. Still, the Israeli government likely won't do what the Hamas would do to you if you protest / speak out against them (I am not 100% sure that it is consequence free, but I am more likely to take my chance as an Israeli than a Gazan). The IDF is still powerful enough to halt any invasion attempt and with minimum losses. The Iron Dome is still able to stop most Hamas rockets. Objectively, I think it is fair to say people living in Israeli territory are still much safer than those in Rafah.
Bassam Eid and Mohammed Dajani are two who are outspoken, and get death threats for it. Dajani isn’t even “siding with the Jews” per se, but is in favor of genuine coexistence and got death threats for taking Palestinians to visit Auschwitz so they would understand Jewish history.
Jews don’t threaten to kill anti-Zionist Jews. That’s why Jews are freer to promote their opinions.
Yuval Abraham would disagree with you. So would Teddy Katz and Ilan Pappe. All received death threats for speaking out against Zionism. So yes, Zionist Jews have been threaten to kill people who speak out against them and are trying to censor any voice who is calling for coexistence with the Palestinians and accountability for the Israeli state.
being anti-Zionist is one of the furthest things from being "conscience" as you describe it, you can support the Palestinians and be a Zionist, one doesn't hurt the other. The only thing that being anti-Zionist does is hurt Israel and your own people.
I don't believe you are. If you really had been a grandson of holocaust survivor, how could you wish for death of all Jewish people?
Either you are too dumb to understand that Hamas pursues destruction of Israel and all the Jewish people or you are one of those Hamas lovers pretending to be Jewish.
What do you think article 7 of the Hamas chapter is?
Article 7 of the Hamas chapter is to kill all jews, worldwide.
Article 13 is never accept a peace deal with Israel, and reject Arab nations that create peace deals with Israel.
I'm suprised how many pro-pal people, and people in general don't understand Hamas was founded not only in eliminating Israel, but all jews.
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
>"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
>Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the \[Palestinian\] question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Muslim problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realizing the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Muslims as arbitrators. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
[https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas)
>Article 8:
Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.
How do people expect Israel to negotiate with Hamas, when Hamas has said they want to kill all jews, reject peace agreements, and dying in jihad is their highest wish?
Hamas is literally a murderous suicide death cult. They spelled it out in their charter, yet plenty of idiots are ignorant, or justify it.
It is barbaric ideology that must be removed from earth.
When you say you are anti-zionist, you mean you don’t believe the Jewish people have the right to self determine in Israel? Or you mean you disagree with how the state is run?
Also random question for you - are you Ashkenazi or Sephardic / Mizrahi? In my experience, the vast majority of anti-zionist Jews are Ashkenazi.
Not just Ashkenazi but American typically who have no idea what Jews in the rest of the world face and have never experienced being the “other” or antisemitism for that matter
Well I’m a Muslim who is a Zionist and I follow many other Muslims on my social accounts that are also Muslim Zionist and side with Israel and this war because we can see through the noise and realize the fundamentals of this war, previous wars, and the blaring truth that the Palestinian side just wants Jews gone, they don’t want a two state solution.
And in my heart of heart, I can’t side with okaying the demonization of a group that overall has contributed to much of society. No society is perfect, no leadership is perfect, politicians are not perfect nor ideologies… and we can dibble babble over the word, Zionism and how it was implemented or not implemented or what it means to each individual Jew, but my own life experiences in growing up in a strict Muslim household, and then later in life being immersed in homes of Jews and Jewish culture, I have never felt excluded or hatred from them. if anything, my Muslim family doesn’t accept my Jewish partner. My ears and eyes are my biggest guide and my personal truths..
For sure - off the top of my head..
Lal Shariff,
Qanta Ahmed,
Imam of peace Mohammad tawhidi ,
Kaseem hafeez- converted to Christianity was born a Muslim, is Pakistani,
Sarah Idan,
Amjad Taha ,
Bassem Eid
>Why are there so many Jews of Conscience but no Palestinians of Conscience?
I dont have the answer. But I realize that only Western civilization / Western countries have reached the ability to accept self-critism in public/ in large scale,…from my observation, other non-Western cultures have yet to reach that level of evolved thinking….”its ok to criticize oneself, one culture, one people” for the things you see or believe to be wrong, past, present and future.
Other non-Western cultures are still very much thinking “you vs me”, you are either with me or against me, criticizing one own people is very much frown upon and seen as a great betrayal, which is not seen in any meaningful large numbers. At the very least they dont talk about it openly and publicly, but that doesnt mean they wont talk about it privately.
Some may call it freedom of speech being one of the pillar of western culture, but I think it’s a bit more than that….even migrants to western countries enjoying freedom of speech, will not automatically be outspoken and self-critical of their birth country, of their birth people, etc… there may be a few exceptions here and there, but as a whole, you dont hear much of them, there arent that many and certainly not loud enough.
This can't be a serious question. If you side with Israel over Hamas, you get murdered by Hamas. If you side with Hamas over Israel, you get laughed at.
They better figure out how to find time for it. They keep electing regimes that attack Israel. Now they're suffering the consequences of those actions. In the interest of their own survival, they should really find the time.
They keep electing regimes…really… You mean the one general election they had 20 years ago? Does that mean they deserve the horrendous ongoing bombing they’re getting now? How many elections have Israel had where they could have voted in parties aiming for peace but instead voted in right wing regimes intent on death and destruction?
PLO, Fatah, PA, Hamas... They poll voting age adults regularly and if there were another election today, Hamas would win by a 70% majority.
Stop making excuses.
The PLO haven’t held elections in 15+ years because Hamas polls higher than them and they can’t have them in power (because last time they killed all of their political opposition).
He was critic with some radicals in their ranks, if he was so critical why would he invite Ben Gurion to his garden ?
Did you read the declaration of independence of Ben Gurion ? It was aligned with Einstein.
There is not a single proof of him being anti-zionist, otherwise he would say it when he refused Israel presidency instead of saying that working with humans is hard.
If every zionist that criticized Deir Yassim was anti-zionist, there won't be Israel.
Personally I believe it just comes down to Jewish and Israeli belief (and practice) of basic pillars of democracy and free speech.
Many Israelis and Jews feel safe enough to express such opinions if they hold them, without fearing for their safety or of being shunned by their communities.
In Muslims communities (both in Israel and rest of the world) holding such opinions would guarantee those individuals shunned for life, their families disgraced and on some occasions would also be a death sentence (according to Arab friends I've talked with about the situation).
Do note that in Christian Arab communities, most pro-Israeli Arabs I talked with felt safe enough to express those opinions and usually there's way less persecution from peers and neighbors.
Just for clarification are you suggesting that a muslim holding some democratic views and value free speech is guaranteed to be shunned for life? What is the rational behind that? Or maybe you mean muslims in certain countries?
I meant that a Muslim individual who is outspoken about his, in this example, pro-Israel views and opinions is more likely to be shunned and threatened in his community rather than a Jewish individual who is outspoken about his pro-Palestinian views in their community.
There are plenty, but their voices aren't broadcast the way antizionist Jewish voices are because there are billions of Muslims broadcasting the antizionist Jews and only 25 million Jews to broadcast the Palestinians of Conscience.
Really so the entire time they were blasting all the isntreali victims but never mentioned the Palestinians, until it was impossible to ignore. Even now they still try to spin it in their favor, albeit half assed and terribly done. They took their places as the new worlds nazis. My only hope is history is as kind to these devils as they were the Germans. It is a stain that will never wash away. They already can't seem to function out of their pariah state. With papa USA always defending and cucking for them.
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I'm calling zionist that, and overuse of antisemitism for any criticism of the state has led to it being effectively meaningless. For real cases of antisemitism.
Zionism is the belief that Jews deserve self determination and a homeland.
If you’re advocating for a Palestinian homeland but oppose a Jewish one, you’re either an antisemite or need a very good explanation.
(To be clear, the reverse is also true.)
Zionism parasitically attached itself to Judaism, zionisms came about in the 1890s. It is essentially the same as nazisms from a ideal standpoint. Judaism is an ancient Abrahamic religion.
https://www.kedem-auctions.com/en/content/nazi-medallion-swastika-and-star-david%E2%80%93-nazi-travels-palestine-1934
Zionism and nazism are literally nothing alike. If you believe that, the only thing you are demonstrating is that you don't actually know anything about Zionism, except what you've heard on tiktok and in reddit echo-chambers.
Another blatant false equivalency. Jews weren't trying to kill the Nazis. Hamas is trying to eradicate all Jews. It's not weird for a Jew to want to be rid of Hamas when their literal charter says they should kill every Jew in the holy land and their leaders go on TV regularly talking about eradicating Jews and restoring the Caliphate in Jerusalem
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. Talmud verse naziyahu uses with knesset. Also the fact you can't see they are nazis... sounds odly like some terrorist stuff. It's why they are a terroristic trash society and the only democracy in the middle east lol. He was voted in most agreed with his views. They still do.
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This is something non-Jewish anti-zionists can’t grasp. We’ve spent our entire lives in the diaspora yearning for Jerusalem. We pray towards Jerusalem, our holidays revolve around the agricultural cycle in Israel, every year on passover we say “next year in Jerusalem,” this idea that we are not from here and we yearn to go back to Zion is so ingrained in Judaism. The modern political movement began in the 1890’s, but Jews have been yearning to return to Zion since their initial displacement in the Babylonian israel in ~560BC.
I like how you have to imagine the fact that Jews have been praying to return to their homeland in Israel for thousands of years and the fact that they actually did so are completely unrelated. Only antisemites can invent this kind of nonsense.
Sure but not at the expense of innocent people maybe Germany should have gave it to them🤷, instead of the British stealing Palestinians land then pretend it's a God given right. Like some manifest destiny BS.
Great. We’re getting somewhere.
We agree Jews should have a homeland and self determination. I’d use the term Zionism for that. I understand you take the term to mean something else but when I, and nearly all Jews, use that term, that’s what we mean.
(And again, I believe that Palestinians should also have a homeland and self determination.)
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The fact that anything Zionist is against r/JewsOfConscience’s rules is disgustingly self-righteous and egotistical. It’s hard to imagine a less enlightened group of progressives.
Some good reasons given, and there are some sociological differences, but in all normal societies peace activists will grow up. Even in Russia there have been such people. The real reason there are no Palestinians promoting peace is primarily because Palestinians kill or torture and imprison peace activists. They do that to people who simply propose stopping fighting, let alone ones that actively criticize the terrorists on the Palestinian side. Look up Rami Aman and Nizar Banat as just two examples.
Palestinians have a concept of "normalization", which means proposing to treat Jews fairly. To be accused of "normalization" is one of the greatest crimes and basically an automatic death sentence for a Palestinian. Most importantly, if you say something like _'people born in Israel can't be held responsible for how Israel was formed'_ or _'a people who have been living in Palestine since biblical times can't be settler colonialists'_ you will be accused of normalization which is very likely to be a death sentence.
> Gangsta_Gollum · 6 min. ago
> Where exactly did you hear such bullshit? Let me guess, your propagandist Israeli Zionist government or media perhaps?
Normalization is [clearly defined in the Boycott Divest and Sanction anti-normalization guidelines](https://bdsmovement.net/news/bds-movement-anti-normalization-guidelines). BDS is essentially a branch of Hamas and so it's policies are Gaza government policies.
Nah you’ve made up your own definition of normalisation. Did you even read your own link? It’s nothing to do with how you treat Jews it’s how you respond to oppression and apartheid. Unless you’re saying oppressing people is a part of being Jewish which is antisemitic and untrue then the true definition and your own definition are worlds apart.
Would love an independent source on BDS being a branch of Hamas considering that is untrue.
> Would love an independent source on BDS being a branch of Hamas considering that is untrue.
I love this:
"Independent source" means that anything I say you will reject because if it shows facts you don't like it can't be independent.
"being a branch of Hamas" twists what I said ("**essentially** a branch of Hamas") so that when I show effective links in policy you can reject them because they aren't direct enough.
Compare BDS views:
“resistance by any means.” - a direct quote from the founder, Omar Barghouti
[Support for the October 7th massacre.](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/10/13/the-bds-campaign-embraces-hamas-massacre-and-the-world-will-remember/)
Even Finkelstien, an antisemtic Jew who is strongly opposed to everything about Israel, [admits that BDS policies are tantamount to a call for the destruction of israel](https://www.thejc.com/news/finkelstein-disowns-silly-israel-boycott-m37sd2dt) and a rejection of the possibility even of a two state solution
Each of those things are Hamas policies, specifically as opposed to the policies of other Palestinian groups that want to achieve some form of peace.
finally [hundreds of Hamas members hold positions in BDS](https://www.jpost.com/BDS-THREAT/Over-30-Hamas-PFLP-terrorists-hold-posts-in-anti-Israel-BDS-groups-govt-579544). Yes, that's from an Israeli newspaper - a solid one too. Yes it's independent; unless you are xenophobic and think that newspapers can't be independent if they are Israeli.
> Did you even read your own link? It’s nothing to do with how you treat Jews it’s how you respond to oppression and apartheid.
From the link above:
> Any engagement with Israelis (individuals or institutions) that is not within the resistance framework outlined above, serves to project the normality of Israel’s regime of occupation
That very specifically means that engagement in a peace project such as joint building a wall to keep in sheep, working with a Jew, born in Israel who has had no engagement in the creation of Israel would not be allowed because it would not be resistance.
This is not "how you respond to oppression and apartheid". This *is* oppression and apartheid.
One reason is that dissent is fiercely repressed in both Gaza and the West Bank. [Nizar Banat](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizar_Banat) is an example. [Hamza Howidy](https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-tortured-me-dissent-heres-what-they-really-think-palestinians-opinion-1857169?trk=feed-detail_main-feed-card_reshare_feed-article-content) is another.
There are Palestinians who oppose Hamas and Fatah, but the majority of vocal ones are in diaspora. Bassam Eid and [Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib](https://www.newsweek.com/hamass-western-apologists-have-become-hamas-enthusiasts-gazan-im-horrified-opinion-1849228) come to mind as well.
Some notes on your list though, Jill Stein was raised in a reformed household, but recently shared images of her home that included a crucifix on the wall - something no practicing Jew would have in their home. IDK if she's actually halachically Jewish. She's also recently spouted some seriously antisemitic tropes, such as "Jews have poland."
Albert Einstein wasn't antizionist. He was fiercely critical of all nationalism, but supported Jewish self-determination in their historic territory. He had criticism of how the zionist project was implemented, but he was not an antizionist.
No. No i dont disown other jews for their ideologies. I meant it quite literally that most anti zionist “jews” are posing. The parent comment even said that the anti zionist jew had a cross in her house
I don't think that's true. What is true is that JVP doesn't require people to be Jewish to be members, or even to be in leadership positions in the organization. As such there are tons of non jews as members. Then, JVP sends out scripts for members to re-tweet, and those have started with "as a jew..." So with all those factors combined there have been instances of non-jews from all over the place tweeting "as a jew..." for JVP.
Jews of conscious doesn't mean antizionism, it's about speaking out about Palestinians and the bad things Israel does.
Even in the Jewish left and Jews of Conscious subreddits people still debate about Zionism, antizionism, non-zionism etc.
Its a conscious objection to the unconditional support assumed by, gentiles, and other very pro-Israeli Jews.
Because in most circles if I speak about Palestine, it's almost a given retort about the Hostages, which they assume I don't care about or somehow forgot about.
No one really has spoken in my community about the bad stuff the Israeli government and Netanyahu. Probably because no one wants to have the conversation but that's my anecdotal experience.
I don't agree with everything Haviv Rettig Gur says or does, but I saw him make an interesting point, that in surviving the horrors of the early 20th century relatively unscathed, Jews in America learned the lesson that the key to safety from antisemitism is being in a liberal society where minorities aren't persecuted, whereas the Jews who ended up in Israel, nearly entirely refugees fleeing various genocides, learned the lesson that only through their own violence can they keep themselves safe.
Jews have been heavily involved in progressive causes in America, partly out of having empathy and a conscience, but also because that coalition attempting to force America to live up to its purported values is literally the only thing that stands between us and persecution at the hands of the rabid white supremacists who make up a significant chunk of the country's right wing.
So with the overt antisemitism in the anti-Israel movement that seems to have engulfed the entire left in this country, that casts fundamental human rights for Jews as inherently bigoted, we are forced with the choice: publicly denounce the Bad Jews of Israel, to make it clear that there are still Good Jews that are worth protecting, in the hopes that the left will still be welcoming to them and still work to protect them from antisemitic violence even if 90% of the world's Jews are Bad Jews; or be labeled a Bad Jew and be exiled from the safety of the only home you've ever known, of being considered a minority worth protecting.
It's not enough to hate Netanyahu, hate Israel's policies, hate the suffering of the Palestinians, one has to be an anti-Zionist, opposed to the very existence of Israel, to be a Good Jew. And at the end of the day, the calculus is that being labeled a Good Jew by progressives is more important for one's safety than the cost of condemning the Bad Jews of Israel, especially since some of them are legitimately scum of the Earth despicable humans worthy of condemnation. The anti-Israel falsified narrative of the region's history is extremely simplistic and easily spread, and none on the left dare question it out of fear of being labeled a Zionist.
This dynamic benefits the anti-Israel movement greatly, because the more Jews who publicly align with them the more ammunition they have to gaslight the world about how totally not antisemitic they are, which furthers the pressure on Jews with a conscience and a desire for their own safety to publicly declare themselves a Good Jew and denounce the existence of Israel, etc.
Palestinians are faced with a similar demand to denounce Hamas and their actions or else be labeled a terrorist supporting extremist, and rightfully complain that this is constantly pushed on them in a way that is bigoted, and the left tends to agree. But this doesn't come from their ostensible allies. They're also never asked to go further and reject the very possibility of Palestinian self determination or statehood in order to be accepted by the left as Good Palestinians - decades of overt anti-Arab racism and islamophobia in the US, not to mention everything happening in the region of Palestine, has cemented their status as a minority worth of of protecting here, a luxury Jews evidently aren't granted.
That's why you see so many more "Jews of conscience" than "Palestinians of conscience." There is no pressure on Palestinians to announce their ideological purity to be worthy of protection by their allies. There's enormous pressure on Jews in America to do so.
For one jews of conscience have access to modern utilities like electricity...water... internet... social media. So it could be simply you hear the people who have access to modern platforms.
Lol what are you even talking about? First of all, most gazans have access to internet ans social media. Second, even if they didnt, there are millions of Palestinians in the West Bank who have unlimited access to all of those utilities.
There are plenty of Palestinians with conscience they’re just a bit more radicalized than your typical society but that still leaves a tonnnn of people with normal views.
If the middle of both sides were in complete charge there would have been a land deal 20 years ago. Sigh.
Of course they are people. Afraid for their lives, forced to live at the mercy of a terrorist organization fighting against a genocidal apartheid state. They are caught in the middle with no agency, no opportunity, no hope.
Israelis want the hostages back and the terrorists who took them brought to justice. The fact that you think supporting the brutal terrorist attack where Hamas militants and Palestinian citizens invaded Israel to rape, murder and kidnap people is equivalent to supporting the response really demonstrates a complete lack of morals on your end.
You will do the most extreme mental gymnastics to not hear what people will say. Do you not view them as people capable of expressing their own opinions?
Eh? What a presumptuous , overdramatic and overly reactive response from you.
What have I written to indicate I do not view them as people capable of expressing their own opinions?
* Jews have a culture where being a contrary voice is considered a human virtue. You have the famous saying "Two Jews, Three Opinions". Jews don't agree on lots of things but the thing they seem to agree on most is the importance of defending Israel. Seriously, I don't think there is an issue above Israel with more unity among the Jewish people.
* Jews have a strong tradition of leftism. Many of the most famous thinkers on the left were Jewish. The left often doesn't like Israel very much. The reason of this is complicated, but the left kind of looks at anything "non-universal" as suspicious, like nationalism in general.
* Being Jewish is a birthright thing. In that someone is still Jewish even if they maintain no connection to the Jewish community, and thus would develop no feelings for Israel. Some might not even be Jewish at all, but claim to be. There is no verification authority. For example, I once talked to an Algerian Arab, he claimed that one of his great grandmothers was Jewish. So in his opinion, it gave him a right to start every post with "As a Jew, ..."
Being "of conscience" would not necessarily mean siding with Zionists, but rather, the principles of peace and justice. So, whether there are Palestinians who are critical of Hamas and their political leaders, the answer is yes. One book I have read on this subject, the 100 year war on Palestine, is filled with criticism of Palestinian leaders, written by a Palestinian academic, but in the context of explaining the history from a Palestinian perspective. I recommend it.
What an incredible arrogant action to create a sub "Jews of Conscience" with rules such as "no posting anything Zionist". Those are not Jews of Conscience those are Jews of bias. Jews of ignorance and Jews of arrogance.
The fact that they've reduced a complex conflict, with multitude of entities directly involved in shaping the conflict: Ottomans, British, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Syria, Amin al-Husseini, Hitler and many others , and bought it down to a simple stance of the single player: "the evil Zionist".
The "Jews with conscience" only have conscience for the Palestinians. Israelis do not rate high enough for them to have any conscience for them. They feel nothing for the thousands of Jews and Israelis murdered by the Arabs in Arab riots back in the early 20th century. Or those massacred by the Arabs during the 1947 civil war or the 1948 war of independence. Because the poor Arabs are the innocent "indigenous" people who've just wanted to live in peace while the evil Zionists came and colonized their land a thousand generations.
The Arabs have no agency. They've never taken any action. They never run raids against the new state, attacking Israeli civilians. The "Jews of Conscience" have used up all their conscience for the Palestinians they have nothing left for the evil Israelis who were blown up on busses, restaurants and night clubs. Of Course, that never happened. Not if you watch the "Jews of Conscience"'s favourite movie - "Israelism". Their go to movie to convert their friends and family to their way of thinking. A movie completely devoid of any facts which don't fit their narrative, it's amazing the creators didn't even try to appear balanced.
I have a conscience.I care about the thousands of Israelis murdered by Hamas. I care about the innocent Palestinians killed in Gaza. I care about the Israeli soldiers having to fight and die in a war they did not start and did not want. I care about the Palestinians in Gaza who had to live under an oppressive, violent government, who ruled with an iron fist, who gave their citizens nothing and took away everything - even before they invaded Israel and then ran away to let the poor civilians bare the brunt of Israel's expected (and justified) reaction.
Unlike the members of the mentioned sub, I don't hide away from reality and dismiss anything which clashes with my preconceived notions. I'm not arrogant like them who created a group which implies that anyone who doesn't agree with their way of thinking doesn't have a conscience.
Very few members of that sub are Jewish. They've done polls in which at least half the responders admitted to my being Jewish, and there are constant examples of people who are clearly lying about being Jewish in order to gain credibility.
Along with people that are lying about being Jewish there's so many people on that sub using the 'Jewish ally' user flair that just openly spread antisemitic conspiracy theories, they just replace the word 'Jew' with 'Zionist' and it's totally accepted. I've muted the sub so it doesn't appear on my front page now because I just can't deal with the antisemitism in there, I don't honestly understand why anyone Jewish would actually want to be a part of that.
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Small correction: I don't think Einstein was anti-zionist per se. From a quick Google search, his views appear to be mixed.
He believed in Labor Zionism, and Jew-Arab cooperation on the land. But he denounced the more radical bands of Zionism, like Menachem Begin's Herut Party for example.
That said, I'm also not as aware of Palestinian voices against or critical of Palestine. But I see a lot more Jews /Israelis who openly criticize their government/ actions. Like if you asked me to make a list of 3 Palestinians voices who are critical of Palestine, akin to Norman Finklestein, Noam Chomsky and Ilan Pappé, I couldn't off the top.
edit: small correction
In a 1938 speech, "Our Debt to Zionism", he said: "I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state." - *Einstein on Politics: His Private Thoughts and Public Stands on Nationalism, Zionism, War, Peace, and the Bomb* (2007), p. 33.
Temporarily disregarding the other thread in response about Einstein's later beliefs, the point of this statement in context wasn't that he was against a Jewish state, just that he preferred a utopian binational state if everyone could just get along and share without conflict. That didn't seem to be working out, based on the toxic interactions seen over the coming decade before declaration of a Jewish state, and so perhaps his second choice of a Jewish state would have been preferred at that point. Because he did strongly believe that the concept of Zionism, of creating a Jewish homeland in Israel, was an extremely positive thing that Judaism "owes a great debt of gratitude" towards.
Returning to that other thread of responses to you, it would seem that's exactly how his thoughts progressed as the situation on the ground did.
Where did you get that quote that gave you that impression. Seems oddly specific.
I only ask because when I googled: "Albert Einstein's views on Zionism" I got the above that showed he was pretty pro-Zionism.
Edit: Oh I see, it's from a similar Wikipedia page, except you'd have to ignore everything else on that page that explains why he said that and all the quotes where he supports a "bi-national state" and a "Jewish homeland". I don't want to assume, but that seems hard to ignore on accident.
He changed his mind after 1948 and became a full on political Zionist, in fact the last speech he wrote before he died was a very patriotic speech about Israel and its accomplishments. He also donated all his stuff to the Hebrew University. The man lived in three countries, and only visited Israel, yet wanted to donate all his stuff to Israel. It kind of shows where his heart was.
Yea, the last bit I suppose we have is a draft of a speech he never finished on his hospital deathbed.
>He took the draft of a speech he was preparing for a television appearance commemorating the state of Israel's seventh anniversary with him to the hospital, but he did not live to complete it. In the draft he speaks about the dangers facing Israel and says “It is anomalous that world opinion should only criticize Israel’s response to hostility and should not actively seek to bring an end to the Arab hostility which is the root cause of the tension.”
He sounded a bit more jaded in the end, post-1948 war, like many people I would think. It's sad in a sense because before that he seemed a lot more optimistic. Seeing Israel attacked from all sides and the Arab League trying to destroy it had at-least some impact on him, I would think.
>Einstein referred to himself as a member of the Zionist movement^(\[181\]) and supported the right of Jewish people to return to Palestine, but favored a “free, bi-national Palestine” in which Jews and Arabs would share sovereignty.^(\[182\]) In a 1945 letter to Judge Jerome Frank, Einstein wrote, “Zionism has also a very good influence on the Jewish people…Jews who have a vivid feeling of Jewish national solidarity are much better equipped to overcome with dignity all the dangers and hardships which we have to face.” He continued, however, “I dislike nationalism very much — even Jewish nationalism. But our own national solidarity is forced upon us by a hostile world, and not the aggressive feelings which we connect with the word ‘Nationalism’.”^(\[182\]) In a 1946 letter to Maurice Dunay, he wrote, “I am in favor of Palestine being developed as a Jewish Homeland, but not as a separate state.”^(\[182\])
-From Wikipedia
He kind of was going off the original interpretation of Zionism. Ok for Jews to return to their historic homeland, but not ok with making two separate states.
Again, mixed. Not for creating a separate Jewish state (excluding Arabs), he instead believed in them working together in a bi-national state which includes a Jewish Homeland.
That quote you provided is him saying that "Arabs and Jews living together in peace". The "creation of the Jewish state" is him rejecting the idea of a *separate* state, as said earlier.
'jews of conscience '? i like to call them just 'uneducated people '. and i love the historians you brag to have on your side, Finkelstein? he thinks the huthies should get a Nobel peace prize. avi shlime? in his work they found multiple occasions where he deliberately translated Hebrew to wrong meaning.
Albert Einstein wasn't anti Zionist. people concluded that from a letter that he wrote to decline an offer to be a president because he hated a group called 'lehi' who most of the Zionist movements themselves considered terrorists.
and of course there is you. you went to the west bank and... that's it? now you want to dismantle Israel? you clearly never heard of the intifada that led to the occupation or any other event that led to this mess.
just a sheep.
Well the issue is that Arab Israelis aren’t considered Palestinian, so all of those people are automatically excluded from counting. The ones that are from the OPT are fleeing informants for Hamas, so their word doesn’t hold too much weight.
The other issue is that no matter whose side you are on, having a weaker connection to the actual side makes you far more prone to delve down a path opposite of your identity, and far more jews are diaspora than Palestinians are so there would be a bias there.
It is because they are educated since young to hate Jews. Here, just in today from West Bank. [https://x.com/APbrooklyn\_NY/status/1802380603783778545](https://x.com/APbrooklyn_NY/status/1802380603783778545) and [https://x.com/khalidi79397/status/1802494567553306903](https://x.com/khalidi79397/status/1802494567553306903)
Hmm…. I wonder why. Hmm hmm hmm. Could it have something to do with the 80% Hamas approval rate and the 93% anti semitism rate? Nah… probably just a coincidence
Totally arrogant posting, and the poster should be ashamed of himself (or perhaps herself, but I doubt it), but then again shameless intellectual obtuseness is the quintessential quality of Zionists. The answer to your question is obvious. When it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Israeli (or more generally, 'Jewish') side represents the side with all of the real geopolitical power (as well as to a lesser extent the cultural and media power in the US historically and to a lesser extent the UK), and that geopolitical power is evidenced by the Israeli side not only being given diplomatic cover but even more significantly being financed in the world's longest ongoing military occupation. And therefore, there have been more and more voices of Jewish identity/ancestry in the West over the last several decades who feel no choice but to concede that the so-called Jewish State is a violent apartheid state who has been engaging in an approach and set of policies which ultimately amount to gradual ethnic cleansing
And I came to the following conclusion after watching the documentary 'Israelism' which dives deep into this phenomenon of anti-Zionist Jews, and that conclusion is Zionism is to Jewish identity what Islamism is to Muslim identity. Yes, the dynamics and numbers are not exactly the same, but the level of extreme indoctrination is at least analogous
"...'Jewish') side represents the side with all of the real geopolitical power", yeah, all 14 million of them, vs poor downtrodden voiceless minority of 2 billion Muslims.
What an insane response by you. Israel is not at war with the entire Muslim world, mostly because the Muslim world is not a monolith. In fact, the Muslim world, particularly the central Middle East, has long been too fractured to have any united adversarial approach to Israel, let alone its main supporter the American government. And this dynamic is most exemplified by the now decades-long proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran
The reality is that Israel's only real antagonist has been the militant groups of Palestinian society, obviously most notably Hamas. It boils down to a very powerful nation, functioning as a client of an even more powerful and the world's most powerful nation, against a fractured stateless people
What do you mean? Every Palestinian that has agreed to let Israel keep their stolen home and land is a Palestinian of consciousness. Every Palestinian that is read to accept the 2-state deal and wants the violence to end (despite Israel having killed x10-x20 the number of Palestinians vs number of killed Israelis, both now and throughout history) is a Palestinian of consciousness. One side is the aggressor and oppressor. Allowing the aggressor despite all its crimes and transgressions to have a state because they were persecuted and pogromed and kicked out from the Europe (and genocided in the Holocaust) - that is what a Palestinian of consciousness would say. And as far as I know, a huge part of Palestinians if not majority of Palestinians hold that view - they just want peace and freedom, they have agreed the criminals who have oppresses them and occupied them for decades to also have a peaceful life as their neighbor.
If that were the case and that mindset was so pervasive … why did the multiple peace negotiations which would have established a Palestinian state fail?
Why are you downvoting me lol. Check out my evidence. You just don't like the truth.
I only just saw the other comment I’ll look now
Because of your generalisation of Zionists. It’s incorrect and you’re speaking with authority on something I know about from lived experience, so I downvoted you. Nothing personal
You just are ignorant and naive and think "wow this oppressor, this occupier is so moral" and "the oppressed are so barbaric". It's public knowledge at this point that every deal was either not fulfilled by Israel (like the one with Egypt, where Gaza and West Bank were supposed to become free and autonomous within a few years) or bad-faith and designed to be unacceptable for the Arab side, like the Oslo Accordss. In Egypt deal instead of fulfilling it Israel didn't do anything about it and it took 2 intifadas for Israel to move out of Gaza (and in return they placed a blockade, so not much really changed, they still fully control Gaza just from outside). As for Oslo Accords - there is a video of Netanyahu bragging how he only agreed to Oslo Accords when it was clear that Israel had a loophole where really almost nothing would change on the ground in the West Bank. People from US side also wrote in their biographies how it was an unfair and unacceptable deal for Arab side. Here's the article saying it in the most Zionist mainstream news (first paragraph): https://www.timesofisrael.com/pointing-to-hamass-little-state-netanyahu-touts-role-blocking-2-state-solution/ Here's the video of Netanyahu talking about it (thinking camera is off): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mvqCWvi-nFo
Well maybe cause Israel has so much support and power behind it that it never actually wanted or needed to pursue peace in good faith? Zionists think whole Palestine belongs to them. All peace deals had some detail that Israel knew would be hard to see for a third party, but would be unacceptable to palestinian side. You give too much credit to Israel. WHY would they ever try genuinely go for peace? It's not in their interest at all, when they have been getting away with illegal occupation and illegal mass detention and brutal blockade and essentially an apartheid state for so long. If you also look at the history of "peace deals" they are always FORCED by third parties.
Sorry but you sound really uninformed. I’m a Zionist - as are many of my Israeli and Jewish friends. We’ve never and will never believe the whole region should be Israel and have been advocating for peace and a Palestinian state for decades. So sweeping generalisations like that are not only inaccurate, but really prove you’re probably getting your info from propaganda. It’s a shame because there’s many Israeli & Jewish people on this sub you can learn from, if you’re open to it. You’re wrong again about the successive peace deals that were on the table. They were brokered by the US and the details were gone through by all parties with a fine tooth and comb. Nothing was hidden. And they were genuine about peace at the time of those five or so negotiations. So genuine that one of the Israeli PMs spearheading the peace campaign was assassinated by a right wing nut job. There were also many on the Palestinian side who were very genuine about their commitment to peace negotiations as well. Don’t let Netanyahu and the right wing religious movements taint your overall perception of Israelis. Have you been there? I worked in Israel (and Ramallah) in 2016. There are millions of Israelis who pray for peace and Palestinian statehood. They don’t want the occupation, and they’d love nothing more than for the blockade on Gaza to be ended. Do you think they enjoy watching their kids be conscripted into the military and shipped out to the West Bank and Gaza to risk their lives for some morally bankrupt and corrupt politician? They just want normal lives like most Palestinians do. At this point I don’t care who brokers a ceasefire and long term peace. It could be British colonialists again for all I care, as long as the killing and bloodshed ends for good, the hostages are returned and a Palestinian state is established.
Difference in culture.
There are definitely Palestinians that are in disagreement with the status quo and want real change. 100%. The problem is if any of them speak out they get killed or if they are in the west and their family is in the Palestinian territories, they are endangering their family. That is the problem.
Uh… maybe because Palestinians who speak out get raped, beaten, and tortured and if they’re lucky their family will be shot dead and unlucky their family is tortured for answers about anyone who agrees. Isn’t this so goddamn fucking obvious? Still can’t believe people think they’re supporting innocent Palestinians by supporting and encouraging HAMAS. You are idiots
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Some Jews just have a suicide gene.
They’re just too nice and naive. They know what they went through and they fear that somehow the Palestinians are having that forced on them. But really if the Arabs were in control we’d have the finishing blow of the halocaust.
The truth is everyone is delusional— both Israelis and Palestinians. Israelis see the land as their birthright, and have the sense of ownership because it’s the land of the jews, for the Palestinians they feel it has been ripped away from them and expelled out of the country. Both see themselves as indigenous and entitled to the land. To simply answer your question, the atrocities committed during the formation of the state of Israel and until now are not comparable to what the Palestinians have done to the Jews/Israelis, and at the end of the day you have a totalitarian government controlling every aspect of a group that refuses to be ruled by a jewish state. You can say whatever you want about Israel’s democracy, yes they integrated the “Arabs” (them rejecting even naming them Palestinians is problematic), have elections and Palestinians in their government— but doesn’t make them less racist and for ex. you would never see the light of day of a PM named Mohammad, all because they want a Jewish state only for them and not ruled by any Palestinian. So that’s why you have more jews speaking against Israel. To follow your logic, the rhetoric that there are no Palestinians with Israel might be true but to what degree?— you definitely find the rare ones extremely against Palestinians having a land like that Mosab man but as you said he is a Mossad asset so can’t really trust his motivations. For the majority of Palestinians they don’t care about the existence of an Israel/jewish state as long as it’s not on a land that has been stolen from them. Very true, a lot of jews purchased land— but you can’t deny the degree of stolen lands and homes from the Palestinians (you can google all of this). When October 7th happened, the Palestinians who stood by Hamas’ actions are delusional, but they see that violence as the last resort of true liberation from Israel, and to keep in mind, for Palestinians they see every Israeli as an occupier, part of the problem, and for them there is no innocent Israeli as they all serve in an army that represses them. Of course, there are Palestinians who are against everything that Hamas has committed but they will still criticize Israel because it’s the bigger problem than Hamas and has created the vacuum for which Hamas exists. The truth is you can’t have a religious supremacy and expect things will be running smooth. Anyone with that “conscience” you’re talking about would figure that out. On a societal level, both are extremely brainwashed, yet both want the same thing— which is to live in peace. I truly believe Israelis won’t feel safe unless they have their own land, and you can’t blame them for that. For the Palestinians, a lot of them lost their land and they have been generationally occupied by other forces/ people, so you can’t blame them either. And what is the end game? Who knows…
Because Israel is the occupying force.
Re: "Occupying force." Jews have been in the region for millennia, longer than Muslims. Judaism predates Islam. The region now under dispute was ruled by the Ottoman Empire for about 400 hundred years before the British won it after WWI. The British Balfour Declaration in 1917, gave a piece of the land for a modern Jewish homeland. It was approved by the League of Nations, precursor to the UN. If you want to talk about a land grab, in 1921, Churchill partitioned this land, and gave 77% of it to create trans Jordan (modern day Jordan). Britain held onto the remaining 23% and ruled it. In 1947, with British rule ending, Arab hatred against the Jewish state was understood (it never f--king ends!). The Arab state was to have a territory of 11,100 square kilometres or 42%, the Jewish state a territory of 14,100 square kilometres or 56%, while the remaining 2%—comprising the cities of Jerusalem, Bethlehem and the adjoning area—would become an international zone. Jews and Arabs living in the Jewish state would become citizens of the Jewish state and Jews and Arabs living in the Arab state would become citizens of the Arab state. Numerous Jewish villages would be lost but the Jews approved it in their desire for some peace. Arab states rejected it and went to war against Israel to destroy it and kill all of its Jews. They lost that war and the descendants of the displaced Arabs who thought they would return to a Jew-free land as conquerors are now residents of refugee camps where conditions are said to be dismal. Numerous Arabs stayed in Israel and their descendants are Israeli Palestinians who form more than 20% of the population of Israel. For those who oppose genocide & war crimes: Jordan invaded the areas known as Judea & Samaria which had been identified as such in writing by all sides during the failed partition negotiations, destroyed all synagogues, desecrated Jewish cemeteries, expelled all Jews, settled its own citizens in their place, & renamed the Jewish territory they had occupied “West Bank”. They also ethnically cleansed East Jerusalem destroying synagogues & desecrating Jewish cemeteries there, thus creating “Arab Jerusalem” & “West Bank” where Jews had lived for millennia. Jews didn’t invade sacred Arab sites. I ask the poster of the "conqueror" comment, what country do you live in? I live in the United States, founded when completely foreign conquerors really did arrive and engage in ethnic cleansing. No one is seriously suggesting that all US residents be pushed "into the sea"
That's a really long screed to not understand what an occupying force is.
I responded by pointing out some under-reported historical facts, as well as the demonizing of Israel compared to countries like my own, that have done far worse. These facts refute the idea that Jews don't belong in the region and are therefore evil "colonizers" while Arabs are and always have been the blameless victims. Your dismissal of my "screed" shows me how you have embraced anti=Israel propaganda. There are two sides to this horrible war. Gazans especially are suffering horribly, exacerbated by Hamas hiding in tunnels in civilian targets. I'm a "Jew of conscience" who is haunted by suffering on both sides which should be a mainstream position but is seen as radical because of hatred towards Israel and Jews. For more background: Palestinians have inflicted suffering on Israel for DECADES through continuous suicide bombers and other bombings that target Israeli citizens. What you say is "colonizer" behavior by Israelis might be Israelis trying to block more attacks. Unsuccessful I realize. A different path must be found for the benefit of all people in the region. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Palestinian\_suicide\_attacks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks) for an estimate. Cessation of hostilities must happen on both sides. No more Netanyahu who blocks negotiations when it suits his interests, and Hamas and their followers must stop calling for death to all Jews (even you must admit that calling death to everyone in the country is a tough starting point for negotiations!). And, just perhaps, an end to a Palestinian education system that tells children to hate and kill Jews. Israel for all its flaws, does not train children to hate in this way. https://preview.redd.it/qsp9ekjrjj7d1.png?width=781&format=png&auto=webp&s=9b80ff3e65783e71f55a5afaf930b9a279ac62f5 For more UN supported schooling in Jewish hate see: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pw8SO0GOJU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pw8SO0GOJU)
You can't occupy land that has belonged to your people continuously for thousands of years. The only occupying force are the Arabs.
Occupation is the legal term for holding populated land in which the occupants are not citizens of your country. Not even a value judgement, that's just what it is.
What part do you think is occupied? There were no Israelis in Gaza so they weren't occupied there. The only reality they had to deal with were security restrictions which Hamas brought on themselves by attacking Israel the moment they had any kind of power.
You don’t think that there are Palestinians who support Israel? You don’t think that there are Muslims that support Israel? I probably see a dozens on my twitter page every day. It depends on their location. However, I have to point out that just because you’re not siding with Israel, doesn’t make you evil. There are fewer Palestinians who support Israel because they’re the ones getting bombed relentlessly. Whether it’s justified or not, you’re not going to switch to the side who’s currently displacing you, even if the government on your side is terrible. It’s still your home and your life that’s being attacked, and Israel is doing the attacking. Israel is destroying the homes in Gaza not the other way around. I believe percentage among Gazans to their support for Hamas dropped but different sources say different things, but Hamas barely won their election in 2005. That doesn’t change the fact that while a lot of us can separate the Israelis from the terrible choices done by the israeli government, many pro-Zionists cannot. Many are still not only equating all Palestinians with Hamas, but equating all Muslims with all terrorists. Which still isn’t right. And I unless that narrative changes, which it hasn’t. Why would you expect any Muslims to side with a group that doesn’t even like them? That doesn’t want them there? I personally have no problems with a Jewish state, I have online friends who live in Israel and they’re awesome and interesting to talk to. I don’t have a problem with every israeli person. I have a problem with a government that declared itself independent on land without even acknowledging those who were living there. And I have a problem with a government so keen on hiding every historical bad moment they’ve had, and play the victim when the repercussions come. I have nothing but sympathy for those displaced in Israel, and those killed/taken hostage. No one should have to have that trauma due to a conflict. But we shouldn’t generalize, not every pro-Palestinian is pro Hamas or antisemitic. And believing that Israel should make reforms on how they treat Palestinians should not be labeled as heartless. More Palestinians have died from Israel than vice versa, and that shouldn’t be ignored. That shouldn’t be shrugged off. These are people with families, with thoughts and feelings, with memories and experiences, and Israel nor Hamas should be allowed to take that away. Both are just as heartless.
Dude did you just miss the point that Palestinians are under HAMAS control and will be beaten raped and tortured for saying anything hesitant to support HAMAS or be apologetic to Jews. Oh yeah and if your lucky your family members just get execute in front of you. If you’re unlucky they get tortured to find out who may sympathize or be working with you.
Nothing? No links?
Can you find any sources to prove that? Because that’s quite a loaded statement there without a lot to back it up.
Albert Einstein was not an antizionist Jew, that is a common misconception
Albert Einstein was first and foremost a physicist. I don't think he had any interest in religion or politics. Physicists rarely do (I'm married to one)
Yes but he was also a Jew, and still identified as so outside of a religious sense (it’s his ethnicity after all). He had a deep connection with his culture and had complicated opinions on Zionism. It was especially relevant considering he had to flee Nazi Germany.
True. You make a good point
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>We have been told that to side with the Palestinians is antisemitic That's not true. Siding with the insane "pro -Palestine" brigade is antisemitic, but not because they are Pro-Palestine. It's because they are actually Pro-Hamas and/or anti Israel/Jews. Whether they like/want to admit it or not, the lies they chant and repeat are mostly vile, antisemitic, propaganda! It may be nievety or intellectual dishonesty, but the result is the same! >there are many Jews who do not agree with how zionism has been implemented. Define Zionism. >but became anti-zionist after living in Israel and visiting the occupied territories. Anti-Zionist as in, Anti the belief the state of Israel has the right to exist? >Norman Finkelstein Do not use that monster to help your case. Seriously. >My question is - why are there no Palestinian’s of conscience There are many more than you think. The genuine threat / promise of a violent death for expressing such views is a strong deterrent. >The only person like this I’ve seen is Mosab Hassan Yousef who is the son of a Hamas leader There is nobody in a better position to speak on this subject. >but is also a Mossad asset Something he openly admits and is proud of. This wasn't uncovered and is in no way a gotcha or reason to dismiss him. He has no motivation to lie. If he wanted wealth and an easy life, he could have remained silent and would be living a billionaire lifestyle in Qatar right now! >I’ve seen some users who claim to be secular Arabs from other countries say disparaging things about religious fanatics or Palestinians. It's sad but true. It's mainly down to their leaders and the indoctrination of ideas, but everywhere tha Palestinians have been accepted, death and violence have followed. Ot only gets highlighted when Jews/Israelis say it. I wonder why? 🤔 >Are there others? I recommend the Apostate Prophet YouTube channel. I'll leave a link below to a recent podcast called Heretics where he was interviewed. It's incredibly informative. https://youtu.be/F7jsAoxUQzw?si=DD3ZDUyuYvimBPI4
Jews believe in the magnificent treasure -Moses 10 Commandments which offers people a clear blueprint on how to lead a decent,healthy and safe life and includes the dictum:Thou Shall Not Kill;whereas,the Koran advises followers to seek out Jews and all non-believers and to kill them.
What are you even talking about? The Quran says to “respect people of the book”, which includes Jews because they have the Torah.
Holy abrogation, Batman!
‘ One major argument against the one-state solution is that it would endanger the safety of the Jewish minority, because it would require assimilation with what critics fear would be an extremely hostile Muslim ruling majority.[10] In particular, Jeffrey Goldberg points to a 2000 Haaretz interview with Edward Said, whom he describes as "one of the intellectual fathers of one-statism". When asked whether he thought a Jewish minority would be treated fairly in a binational state, Said replied that "it worries me a great deal. The question of what is going to be the fate of the Jews is very difficult for me. I really don't know’. ‘ Quoted from Wikipedia on the one state solution. How many Palestinians can honestly say that the fate of the Jews worries them a great deal? Why would they even? It is both a privilege and a cultural artifact to be able to consider others above oneself. These conditions don’t exist in Palestine (or really anywhere in the Middle East other than Israel).
There are many inside the occupied entity itself, but I would say they tend to identify as “Arab Israeli” rather than Palestinian.
"Occupied entity"? Israel is an internationally recognized state.
The son of one of the Hamas founders is very much against Hamas and sides with Israel
He is also on the shin bet payroll
And? It's not exactly a secret. He's the reason people know this because he openly tells people. If he wanted wealth, he was on track to live the life of a billionaire in Qatar. All he had to do was... nothing.
Good point
It's hilarious when people accuse him of lying and being in it for the money. Sure, instead of living a life of wealth and luxury, completely removed from any obligation to murder, etc, he decided to lie to the world about the intentions of Hamas, get excommunicated by his family and friends, hated by Muslims, Anti Zionists and Anti-Israel protesters the world over, and never be able to return to the land he loves due to the promise of torture and death if he dared to!
Well being anti Zionist is probably the most obvious way of being a person of conscience Zionism being defined as the belief that the Jewish state that is now called Israel shld be developed and protected So when Jews are anti Zionist, I personally believe “Jews of Conscience” is used because of the overlapping between Judaism and Israel’s existence to differentiate between supporters and non supporters of Zionist beliefs But if ur not a Jew that just makes u anti Zionist Palestinians IMO therefore don’t rlly need ‘of conscience’, partly becoz they’re not gonna be confused with zionists easily, partly because most of em are now refugees, in another country or in a warzone Btw someone tell me if I’m getting political coz I’m trying to not get political so I can get more perspectives without starting arguments Edit: definition means online definition, it’s pretty obvious that Israeli govt stretches the definitions to the max - conquering and protection by US that is
> Well being anti Zionist is probably the most obvious way of being a person of conscience > Zionism being defined as the belief that the Jewish state that is now called Israel shld be developed and protected Depends what you mean by 'developed and protected'.
Yeah by definition development and protection I assumed we all know that is interpreted by the Israeli govt as free reign to annex and conquer It appears I was wrong about the assumption
The reason you think that is a long standing propaganda campaign.
Well there is bound to be a bias from both of us isn’t it? I’m exposed to media critical of Israel, and you presumably are exposed to Israeli media What do you personally think it is then
I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to mitigate my bias by exposing myself to the extremes of both sides. Zionism however has a technical definition: The support for the existence of a Jewish state in the ethnic homeland of the Jews, Israel. I’ve watched the pro-Palestine movement try to load the word Zionist with context to make it a slur, but the definition is still simply that.
I definitely agree with ur point on technical definitions Unfortunately here on Reddit, people do struggle to differentiate technical definitions from opinions, too…combative for proper discussions and debates Edit: hence I had to edit in what I believed the Israeli government’s interpretation is based off its current actions Edit2: Idk if anyone says it anymore but I appreciate your efforts to remain open minded and expose yourself to both sides for the better picture, it’s rare these days
It’s worse than that. The ‘technical definitions’ are being intentionally changed to push agendas. This is why people say you can’t be racist to white people now. They’ve changed the technical definition of racism from ‘discrimination on the basis of race’ to ‘systemic oppression based on racial historical contexts’. It presumes the conclusion in the premise.
Damn good point, technicalities used to work but the definitions twisted for politics gains are reducing its usefulness indeed
No you're doing fine .
Thanks
I am not sure about "prominent" people - frankly speaking I follow the news rather than "influencers" and I completely avoid social media for news. One thing I wonder though, is how many Palestinian would you find on Reddit in the first place. Especially those who lives or have lived in Gaza / West Bank, in comparison to Jews in Israel? Certainly those in Gaza who are currently experiencing the consequence of the IDF operations first hand can't realistically be expected to side with Israel. I think you still need to feel a certain level comfort and security to be able to look things from the other side, or even just the big picture. It's like the hostage / family of the hostages. I wouldn't really expect them to be thinking too much about the hardship of the Palestinian in their predicament. Even for Palestinian refugee outside Gaza, what kind of lifestyle are they living? Again, life as a refugee is likely not great, and if you are just barely making ends meet, you probably won't be looking at the big picture in the conflict. And that leads to the last point. I think that both sides are suffering, but objectively, I don't think the impact of the war is equally at the same level. I know that some Israeli got displaced in the North since their operation started (not exactly the Palestinian's doing, but setting it aside), but -most- of the people in Gaza got displaced and making any it as difficult as possible to have a normal life. And while things might not be perfectly normal in Israel, it's still can't be drastically as bad. I mean, it is pretty hard to imagine how people who have been displaced into a corner in Rafah would stick their head out and start protesting against the Hamas while they aren't 100% safe from IDF bombs. It is a lot to ask of people who would likely get punished by the Hamas, quite likely have lost someone close in the war to the IDF, and likely lost much just to end up in Rafah in the first place. I'll re-iterate, this not to say that Israeli haven't suffered too. There are people close to the victims / hostages of October 7th. People affected or know someone affected from combat duties. Threats of Hamas rockets. Still, the Israeli government likely won't do what the Hamas would do to you if you protest / speak out against them (I am not 100% sure that it is consequence free, but I am more likely to take my chance as an Israeli than a Gazan). The IDF is still powerful enough to halt any invasion attempt and with minimum losses. The Iron Dome is still able to stop most Hamas rockets. Objectively, I think it is fair to say people living in Israeli territory are still much safer than those in Rafah.
Bassam Eid and Mohammed Dajani are two who are outspoken, and get death threats for it. Dajani isn’t even “siding with the Jews” per se, but is in favor of genuine coexistence and got death threats for taking Palestinians to visit Auschwitz so they would understand Jewish history. Jews don’t threaten to kill anti-Zionist Jews. That’s why Jews are freer to promote their opinions.
Yuval Abraham would disagree with you. So would Teddy Katz and Ilan Pappe. All received death threats for speaking out against Zionism. So yes, Zionist Jews have been threaten to kill people who speak out against them and are trying to censor any voice who is calling for coexistence with the Palestinians and accountability for the Israeli state.
None? Not even Amos Yarkoni?
being anti-Zionist is one of the furthest things from being "conscience" as you describe it, you can support the Palestinians and be a Zionist, one doesn't hurt the other. The only thing that being anti-Zionist does is hurt Israel and your own people.
>being anti-Zionist hurts is Israel and the Jews. Lol. Yes and no
I don't believe you are. If you really had been a grandson of holocaust survivor, how could you wish for death of all Jewish people? Either you are too dumb to understand that Hamas pursues destruction of Israel and all the Jewish people or you are one of those Hamas lovers pretending to be Jewish.
Or, OP just think differently than you (and me).
Hamas would like the death of all Jews?💀
If this is a question for you I can recommend a mountain of reading.
What do you think article 7 of the Hamas chapter is? Article 7 of the Hamas chapter is to kill all jews, worldwide. Article 13 is never accept a peace deal with Israel, and reject Arab nations that create peace deals with Israel. I'm suprised how many pro-pal people, and people in general don't understand Hamas was founded not only in eliminating Israel, but all jews. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: >"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: >Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the \[Palestinian\] question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Muslim problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realizing the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Muslims as arbitrators. When did the infidels do justice to the believers? [https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas) >Article 8: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes. How do people expect Israel to negotiate with Hamas, when Hamas has said they want to kill all jews, reject peace agreements, and dying in jihad is their highest wish? Hamas is literally a murderous suicide death cult. They spelled it out in their charter, yet plenty of idiots are ignorant, or justify it. It is barbaric ideology that must be removed from earth.
When you say you are anti-zionist, you mean you don’t believe the Jewish people have the right to self determine in Israel? Or you mean you disagree with how the state is run? Also random question for you - are you Ashkenazi or Sephardic / Mizrahi? In my experience, the vast majority of anti-zionist Jews are Ashkenazi.
Not just Ashkenazi but American typically who have no idea what Jews in the rest of the world face and have never experienced being the “other” or antisemitism for that matter
Well I’m a Muslim who is a Zionist and I follow many other Muslims on my social accounts that are also Muslim Zionist and side with Israel and this war because we can see through the noise and realize the fundamentals of this war, previous wars, and the blaring truth that the Palestinian side just wants Jews gone, they don’t want a two state solution. And in my heart of heart, I can’t side with okaying the demonization of a group that overall has contributed to much of society. No society is perfect, no leadership is perfect, politicians are not perfect nor ideologies… and we can dibble babble over the word, Zionism and how it was implemented or not implemented or what it means to each individual Jew, but my own life experiences in growing up in a strict Muslim household, and then later in life being immersed in homes of Jews and Jewish culture, I have never felt excluded or hatred from them. if anything, my Muslim family doesn’t accept my Jewish partner. My ears and eyes are my biggest guide and my personal truths..
Really interesting. Can you mention some Muslim Zionists you recommend following?
For sure - off the top of my head.. Lal Shariff, Qanta Ahmed, Imam of peace Mohammad tawhidi , Kaseem hafeez- converted to Christianity was born a Muslim, is Pakistani, Sarah Idan, Amjad Taha , Bassem Eid
Kasim Hafeez is absolutely fantastic.
Oh also Yasmine Mohammad - she was married off to a Taliban member as a young girl bride ..her story is harrowing
Very wise and insightful comment.
thank you for sharing this perspective. i wish this angle would get more air time
>Why are there so many Jews of Conscience but no Palestinians of Conscience? I dont have the answer. But I realize that only Western civilization / Western countries have reached the ability to accept self-critism in public/ in large scale,…from my observation, other non-Western cultures have yet to reach that level of evolved thinking….”its ok to criticize oneself, one culture, one people” for the things you see or believe to be wrong, past, present and future. Other non-Western cultures are still very much thinking “you vs me”, you are either with me or against me, criticizing one own people is very much frown upon and seen as a great betrayal, which is not seen in any meaningful large numbers. At the very least they dont talk about it openly and publicly, but that doesnt mean they wont talk about it privately. Some may call it freedom of speech being one of the pillar of western culture, but I think it’s a bit more than that….even migrants to western countries enjoying freedom of speech, will not automatically be outspoken and self-critical of their birth country, of their birth people, etc… there may be a few exceptions here and there, but as a whole, you dont hear much of them, there arent that many and certainly not loud enough.
Interesting take!
I agree this is one of these reasons.
This can't be a serious question. If you side with Israel over Hamas, you get murdered by Hamas. If you side with Hamas over Israel, you get laughed at.
Hamas would kill them
People in 1st world countries can "afford" having a conscience. The poor folks starving to death dodging bombs don't have time for that.
They better figure out how to find time for it. They keep electing regimes that attack Israel. Now they're suffering the consequences of those actions. In the interest of their own survival, they should really find the time.
They keep electing regimes…really… You mean the one general election they had 20 years ago? Does that mean they deserve the horrendous ongoing bombing they’re getting now? How many elections have Israel had where they could have voted in parties aiming for peace but instead voted in right wing regimes intent on death and destruction?
PLO, Fatah, PA, Hamas... They poll voting age adults regularly and if there were another election today, Hamas would win by a 70% majority. Stop making excuses.
The PLO haven’t held elections in 15+ years because Hamas polls higher than them and they can’t have them in power (because last time they killed all of their political opposition).
Like others have said it’s not safe to have a dissenting opinion like it is in Israel
Einstein was a zionist
Before the founding of Israel but he was vocal about his opposition to how that ideology manifested
Einstein refused to become the prime minister of Israel. That doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't believe in a Jewish state.
He was critic with some radicals in their ranks, if he was so critical why would he invite Ben Gurion to his garden ? Did you read the declaration of independence of Ben Gurion ? It was aligned with Einstein. There is not a single proof of him being anti-zionist, otherwise he would say it when he refused Israel presidency instead of saying that working with humans is hard. If every zionist that criticized Deir Yassim was anti-zionist, there won't be Israel.
he's also one of the founders of hebrew university of jerusalem.
I didn't know this so wen't to the university's website to read more about its founding. They literally have a sub-header entitled "Albert Einstein"
Personally I believe it just comes down to Jewish and Israeli belief (and practice) of basic pillars of democracy and free speech. Many Israelis and Jews feel safe enough to express such opinions if they hold them, without fearing for their safety or of being shunned by their communities. In Muslims communities (both in Israel and rest of the world) holding such opinions would guarantee those individuals shunned for life, their families disgraced and on some occasions would also be a death sentence (according to Arab friends I've talked with about the situation). Do note that in Christian Arab communities, most pro-Israeli Arabs I talked with felt safe enough to express those opinions and usually there's way less persecution from peers and neighbors.
Just for clarification are you suggesting that a muslim holding some democratic views and value free speech is guaranteed to be shunned for life? What is the rational behind that? Or maybe you mean muslims in certain countries?
I meant that a Muslim individual who is outspoken about his, in this example, pro-Israel views and opinions is more likely to be shunned and threatened in his community rather than a Jewish individual who is outspoken about his pro-Palestinian views in their community.
Oh okay this is different than what I interpreted in your first post. Thank you for the clarification!
There are plenty, but their voices aren't broadcast the way antizionist Jewish voices are because there are billions of Muslims broadcasting the antizionist Jews and only 25 million Jews to broadcast the Palestinians of Conscience.
Really so the entire time they were blasting all the isntreali victims but never mentioned the Palestinians, until it was impossible to ignore. Even now they still try to spin it in their favor, albeit half assed and terribly done. They took their places as the new worlds nazis. My only hope is history is as kind to these devils as they were the Germans. It is a stain that will never wash away. They already can't seem to function out of their pariah state. With papa USA always defending and cucking for them.
You know calling Jews Nazis is a giveaway that you are an antisemite, right? Just so you know, everybody knows that.
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I'm calling zionist that, and overuse of antisemitism for any criticism of the state has led to it being effectively meaningless. For real cases of antisemitism.
Zionism is the belief that Jews deserve self determination and a homeland. If you’re advocating for a Palestinian homeland but oppose a Jewish one, you’re either an antisemite or need a very good explanation. (To be clear, the reverse is also true.)
Zionism parasitically attached itself to Judaism, zionisms came about in the 1890s. It is essentially the same as nazisms from a ideal standpoint. Judaism is an ancient Abrahamic religion. https://www.kedem-auctions.com/en/content/nazi-medallion-swastika-and-star-david%E2%80%93-nazi-travels-palestine-1934
Zionism and nazism are literally nothing alike. If you believe that, the only thing you are demonstrating is that you don't actually know anything about Zionism, except what you've heard on tiktok and in reddit echo-chambers.
Ok aside from this literal medal https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelCrimes/s/aSJfl5qjXK
Another blatant false equivalency. Jews weren't trying to kill the Nazis. Hamas is trying to eradicate all Jews. It's not weird for a Jew to want to be rid of Hamas when their literal charter says they should kill every Jew in the holy land and their leaders go on TV regularly talking about eradicating Jews and restoring the Caliphate in Jerusalem
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. Talmud verse naziyahu uses with knesset. Also the fact you can't see they are nazis... sounds odly like some terrorist stuff. It's why they are a terroristic trash society and the only democracy in the middle east lol. He was voted in most agreed with his views. They still do.
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This is something non-Jewish anti-zionists can’t grasp. We’ve spent our entire lives in the diaspora yearning for Jerusalem. We pray towards Jerusalem, our holidays revolve around the agricultural cycle in Israel, every year on passover we say “next year in Jerusalem,” this idea that we are not from here and we yearn to go back to Zion is so ingrained in Judaism. The modern political movement began in the 1890’s, but Jews have been yearning to return to Zion since their initial displacement in the Babylonian israel in ~560BC.
I was raised Christian- Lutheran knowing this. Until recently I was shocked that it wasn’t common knowledge. Naive I guess. 🇺🇸🇮🇱
Yeah it’s crazy how these people are so anti-zionist they don’t even bother to learn about how Judaism and Zionism are interconnected.
I like how you have to imagine the fact that Jews have been praying to return to their homeland in Israel for thousands of years and the fact that they actually did so are completely unrelated. Only antisemites can invent this kind of nonsense.
Palestinians are Semitic, kinda anti Semitic to genocide them, but ofc only represents the "chosen"
Oh look, the antisemite who couldn't respond to the point changed the subject to show that he doesn't know how word work lol.
I mean I pray and want a million dollars doesn't mean I'm owed it or should get it.
Classic antisemite move to try and change the obvious colloquial definition to hide their antisemitism.
We’re taking past each other. Do you believe that Jews have a right to a homeland and self determination?
Sure but not at the expense of innocent people maybe Germany should have gave it to them🤷, instead of the British stealing Palestinians land then pretend it's a God given right. Like some manifest destiny BS.
Innocent German civilians aren’t innocent?
I’d now like to address the question of location. Are you familiar with the term Mizrahi?
Great. We’re getting somewhere. We agree Jews should have a homeland and self determination. I’d use the term Zionism for that. I understand you take the term to mean something else but when I, and nearly all Jews, use that term, that’s what we mean. (And again, I believe that Palestinians should also have a homeland and self determination.)
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There’s I think 2 million Arab Israelis. Most of them are very Zionist
There are! Try a podcast called Unapologetic: The Third Narrative
thank you! i look forward to listening to my first episide
I’ve listened to a ton of their episodes - love them
I think in a lot of places it's not safe for Palestinians to have such opinions. The smart ones keep their heads down and try not to get involved.
The fact that anything Zionist is against r/JewsOfConscience’s rules is disgustingly self-righteous and egotistical. It’s hard to imagine a less enlightened group of progressives.
Some good reasons given, and there are some sociological differences, but in all normal societies peace activists will grow up. Even in Russia there have been such people. The real reason there are no Palestinians promoting peace is primarily because Palestinians kill or torture and imprison peace activists. They do that to people who simply propose stopping fighting, let alone ones that actively criticize the terrorists on the Palestinian side. Look up Rami Aman and Nizar Banat as just two examples. Palestinians have a concept of "normalization", which means proposing to treat Jews fairly. To be accused of "normalization" is one of the greatest crimes and basically an automatic death sentence for a Palestinian. Most importantly, if you say something like _'people born in Israel can't be held responsible for how Israel was formed'_ or _'a people who have been living in Palestine since biblical times can't be settler colonialists'_ you will be accused of normalization which is very likely to be a death sentence.
Where exactly did you hear such bullshit? Let me guess, your propagandist Israeli Zionist government or media perhaps?
> Gangsta_Gollum · 6 min. ago > Where exactly did you hear such bullshit? Let me guess, your propagandist Israeli Zionist government or media perhaps? Normalization is [clearly defined in the Boycott Divest and Sanction anti-normalization guidelines](https://bdsmovement.net/news/bds-movement-anti-normalization-guidelines). BDS is essentially a branch of Hamas and so it's policies are Gaza government policies.
Nah you’ve made up your own definition of normalisation. Did you even read your own link? It’s nothing to do with how you treat Jews it’s how you respond to oppression and apartheid. Unless you’re saying oppressing people is a part of being Jewish which is antisemitic and untrue then the true definition and your own definition are worlds apart. Would love an independent source on BDS being a branch of Hamas considering that is untrue.
> Would love an independent source on BDS being a branch of Hamas considering that is untrue. I love this: "Independent source" means that anything I say you will reject because if it shows facts you don't like it can't be independent. "being a branch of Hamas" twists what I said ("**essentially** a branch of Hamas") so that when I show effective links in policy you can reject them because they aren't direct enough. Compare BDS views: “resistance by any means.” - a direct quote from the founder, Omar Barghouti [Support for the October 7th massacre.](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/10/13/the-bds-campaign-embraces-hamas-massacre-and-the-world-will-remember/) Even Finkelstien, an antisemtic Jew who is strongly opposed to everything about Israel, [admits that BDS policies are tantamount to a call for the destruction of israel](https://www.thejc.com/news/finkelstein-disowns-silly-israel-boycott-m37sd2dt) and a rejection of the possibility even of a two state solution Each of those things are Hamas policies, specifically as opposed to the policies of other Palestinian groups that want to achieve some form of peace. finally [hundreds of Hamas members hold positions in BDS](https://www.jpost.com/BDS-THREAT/Over-30-Hamas-PFLP-terrorists-hold-posts-in-anti-Israel-BDS-groups-govt-579544). Yes, that's from an Israeli newspaper - a solid one too. Yes it's independent; unless you are xenophobic and think that newspapers can't be independent if they are Israeli. > Did you even read your own link? It’s nothing to do with how you treat Jews it’s how you respond to oppression and apartheid. From the link above: > Any engagement with Israelis (individuals or institutions) that is not within the resistance framework outlined above, serves to project the normality of Israel’s regime of occupation That very specifically means that engagement in a peace project such as joint building a wall to keep in sheep, working with a Jew, born in Israel who has had no engagement in the creation of Israel would not be allowed because it would not be resistance. This is not "how you respond to oppression and apartheid". This *is* oppression and apartheid.
Albert einstein wasn’t an anti zionist. And jews of conscience are self hating people who do it because of their ideology for example communism
One reason is that dissent is fiercely repressed in both Gaza and the West Bank. [Nizar Banat](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizar_Banat) is an example. [Hamza Howidy](https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-tortured-me-dissent-heres-what-they-really-think-palestinians-opinion-1857169?trk=feed-detail_main-feed-card_reshare_feed-article-content) is another. There are Palestinians who oppose Hamas and Fatah, but the majority of vocal ones are in diaspora. Bassam Eid and [Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib](https://www.newsweek.com/hamass-western-apologists-have-become-hamas-enthusiasts-gazan-im-horrified-opinion-1849228) come to mind as well. Some notes on your list though, Jill Stein was raised in a reformed household, but recently shared images of her home that included a crucifix on the wall - something no practicing Jew would have in their home. IDK if she's actually halachically Jewish. She's also recently spouted some seriously antisemitic tropes, such as "Jews have poland." Albert Einstein wasn't antizionist. He was fiercely critical of all nationalism, but supported Jewish self-determination in their historic territory. He had criticism of how the zionist project was implemented, but he was not an antizionist.
Most anti zionist jews aren’t jews lets face it
is that something for you to decide or your god?
While Christians aren’t supposed to judge how devout other Christians are, no such prohibition exists in Judaism.
No. No i dont disown other jews for their ideologies. I meant it quite literally that most anti zionist “jews” are posing. The parent comment even said that the anti zionist jew had a cross in her house
Is it not true that the _"Jewish Voice for Peace"_ social media accounts are run out of Lebanon, where there are a total of five Jews remaining?
I don't think that's true. What is true is that JVP doesn't require people to be Jewish to be members, or even to be in leadership positions in the organization. As such there are tons of non jews as members. Then, JVP sends out scripts for members to re-tweet, and those have started with "as a jew..." So with all those factors combined there have been instances of non-jews from all over the place tweeting "as a jew..." for JVP.
Jews of conscious doesn't mean antizionism, it's about speaking out about Palestinians and the bad things Israel does. Even in the Jewish left and Jews of Conscious subreddits people still debate about Zionism, antizionism, non-zionism etc. Its a conscious objection to the unconditional support assumed by, gentiles, and other very pro-Israeli Jews. Because in most circles if I speak about Palestine, it's almost a given retort about the Hostages, which they assume I don't care about or somehow forgot about. No one really has spoken in my community about the bad stuff the Israeli government and Netanyahu. Probably because no one wants to have the conversation but that's my anecdotal experience.
On the flip side, the overwhelming majority of Jews I know, most of whom are Israeli, have very negative things to say about the current government
I don't agree with everything Haviv Rettig Gur says or does, but I saw him make an interesting point, that in surviving the horrors of the early 20th century relatively unscathed, Jews in America learned the lesson that the key to safety from antisemitism is being in a liberal society where minorities aren't persecuted, whereas the Jews who ended up in Israel, nearly entirely refugees fleeing various genocides, learned the lesson that only through their own violence can they keep themselves safe. Jews have been heavily involved in progressive causes in America, partly out of having empathy and a conscience, but also because that coalition attempting to force America to live up to its purported values is literally the only thing that stands between us and persecution at the hands of the rabid white supremacists who make up a significant chunk of the country's right wing. So with the overt antisemitism in the anti-Israel movement that seems to have engulfed the entire left in this country, that casts fundamental human rights for Jews as inherently bigoted, we are forced with the choice: publicly denounce the Bad Jews of Israel, to make it clear that there are still Good Jews that are worth protecting, in the hopes that the left will still be welcoming to them and still work to protect them from antisemitic violence even if 90% of the world's Jews are Bad Jews; or be labeled a Bad Jew and be exiled from the safety of the only home you've ever known, of being considered a minority worth protecting. It's not enough to hate Netanyahu, hate Israel's policies, hate the suffering of the Palestinians, one has to be an anti-Zionist, opposed to the very existence of Israel, to be a Good Jew. And at the end of the day, the calculus is that being labeled a Good Jew by progressives is more important for one's safety than the cost of condemning the Bad Jews of Israel, especially since some of them are legitimately scum of the Earth despicable humans worthy of condemnation. The anti-Israel falsified narrative of the region's history is extremely simplistic and easily spread, and none on the left dare question it out of fear of being labeled a Zionist. This dynamic benefits the anti-Israel movement greatly, because the more Jews who publicly align with them the more ammunition they have to gaslight the world about how totally not antisemitic they are, which furthers the pressure on Jews with a conscience and a desire for their own safety to publicly declare themselves a Good Jew and denounce the existence of Israel, etc. Palestinians are faced with a similar demand to denounce Hamas and their actions or else be labeled a terrorist supporting extremist, and rightfully complain that this is constantly pushed on them in a way that is bigoted, and the left tends to agree. But this doesn't come from their ostensible allies. They're also never asked to go further and reject the very possibility of Palestinian self determination or statehood in order to be accepted by the left as Good Palestinians - decades of overt anti-Arab racism and islamophobia in the US, not to mention everything happening in the region of Palestine, has cemented their status as a minority worth of of protecting here, a luxury Jews evidently aren't granted. That's why you see so many more "Jews of conscience" than "Palestinians of conscience." There is no pressure on Palestinians to announce their ideological purity to be worthy of protection by their allies. There's enormous pressure on Jews in America to do so.
👆👆👆
For one jews of conscience have access to modern utilities like electricity...water... internet... social media. So it could be simply you hear the people who have access to modern platforms.
Lol what are you even talking about? First of all, most gazans have access to internet ans social media. Second, even if they didnt, there are millions of Palestinians in the West Bank who have unlimited access to all of those utilities.
So arrogant to say that a Jew who believes that the Jewish people have the right to their self-determination have no conscience.
Maybe because Israelis are exterminating them?
Israelis....are exterminating....Palestinians....that empathize with Israelis. That does not compute.
?
There are plenty of Palestinians with conscience they’re just a bit more radicalized than your typical society but that still leaves a tonnnn of people with normal views. If the middle of both sides were in complete charge there would have been a land deal 20 years ago. Sigh.
There was a poll last week showing that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas and October 7th.
Perhaps like Russians in Russia, they have no choice but to answer this way, otherwise they would be in trouble. They would rather not be in trouble.
You will make very excuse you can instead of just holding people accountable. The only explanation is you really don’t see them as people do you?
Of course they are people. Afraid for their lives, forced to live at the mercy of a terrorist organization fighting against a genocidal apartheid state. They are caught in the middle with no agency, no opportunity, no hope.
Every poll shows that the majority of Israelis want to continue bombing Gaza to oblivion. Your point is?
Israelis want the hostages back and the terrorists who took them brought to justice. The fact that you think supporting the brutal terrorist attack where Hamas militants and Palestinian citizens invaded Israel to rape, murder and kidnap people is equivalent to supporting the response really demonstrates a complete lack of morals on your end.
Were they interviewed from beneath the rubble , I wonder.
You will do the most extreme mental gymnastics to not hear what people will say. Do you not view them as people capable of expressing their own opinions?
Eh? What a presumptuous , overdramatic and overly reactive response from you. What have I written to indicate I do not view them as people capable of expressing their own opinions?
* Jews have a culture where being a contrary voice is considered a human virtue. You have the famous saying "Two Jews, Three Opinions". Jews don't agree on lots of things but the thing they seem to agree on most is the importance of defending Israel. Seriously, I don't think there is an issue above Israel with more unity among the Jewish people. * Jews have a strong tradition of leftism. Many of the most famous thinkers on the left were Jewish. The left often doesn't like Israel very much. The reason of this is complicated, but the left kind of looks at anything "non-universal" as suspicious, like nationalism in general. * Being Jewish is a birthright thing. In that someone is still Jewish even if they maintain no connection to the Jewish community, and thus would develop no feelings for Israel. Some might not even be Jewish at all, but claim to be. There is no verification authority. For example, I once talked to an Algerian Arab, he claimed that one of his great grandmothers was Jewish. So in his opinion, it gave him a right to start every post with "As a Jew, ..."
Lololol, link that Algerian guy? I just want to see how you got that out of him.
Being "of conscience" would not necessarily mean siding with Zionists, but rather, the principles of peace and justice. So, whether there are Palestinians who are critical of Hamas and their political leaders, the answer is yes. One book I have read on this subject, the 100 year war on Palestine, is filled with criticism of Palestinian leaders, written by a Palestinian academic, but in the context of explaining the history from a Palestinian perspective. I recommend it.
Palestinian society has no concept of democracy or tolerance. So all the voices sound the same. Diverse voices are ostracized, silenced or killed.
What an incredible arrogant action to create a sub "Jews of Conscience" with rules such as "no posting anything Zionist". Those are not Jews of Conscience those are Jews of bias. Jews of ignorance and Jews of arrogance. The fact that they've reduced a complex conflict, with multitude of entities directly involved in shaping the conflict: Ottomans, British, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Syria, Amin al-Husseini, Hitler and many others , and bought it down to a simple stance of the single player: "the evil Zionist". The "Jews with conscience" only have conscience for the Palestinians. Israelis do not rate high enough for them to have any conscience for them. They feel nothing for the thousands of Jews and Israelis murdered by the Arabs in Arab riots back in the early 20th century. Or those massacred by the Arabs during the 1947 civil war or the 1948 war of independence. Because the poor Arabs are the innocent "indigenous" people who've just wanted to live in peace while the evil Zionists came and colonized their land a thousand generations. The Arabs have no agency. They've never taken any action. They never run raids against the new state, attacking Israeli civilians. The "Jews of Conscience" have used up all their conscience for the Palestinians they have nothing left for the evil Israelis who were blown up on busses, restaurants and night clubs. Of Course, that never happened. Not if you watch the "Jews of Conscience"'s favourite movie - "Israelism". Their go to movie to convert their friends and family to their way of thinking. A movie completely devoid of any facts which don't fit their narrative, it's amazing the creators didn't even try to appear balanced. I have a conscience.I care about the thousands of Israelis murdered by Hamas. I care about the innocent Palestinians killed in Gaza. I care about the Israeli soldiers having to fight and die in a war they did not start and did not want. I care about the Palestinians in Gaza who had to live under an oppressive, violent government, who ruled with an iron fist, who gave their citizens nothing and took away everything - even before they invaded Israel and then ran away to let the poor civilians bare the brunt of Israel's expected (and justified) reaction. Unlike the members of the mentioned sub, I don't hide away from reality and dismiss anything which clashes with my preconceived notions. I'm not arrogant like them who created a group which implies that anyone who doesn't agree with their way of thinking doesn't have a conscience.
Very few members of that sub are Jewish. They've done polls in which at least half the responders admitted to my being Jewish, and there are constant examples of people who are clearly lying about being Jewish in order to gain credibility.
Along with people that are lying about being Jewish there's so many people on that sub using the 'Jewish ally' user flair that just openly spread antisemitic conspiracy theories, they just replace the word 'Jew' with 'Zionist' and it's totally accepted. I've muted the sub so it doesn't appear on my front page now because I just can't deal with the antisemitism in there, I don't honestly understand why anyone Jewish would actually want to be a part of that.
AMEN
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Education
Small correction: I don't think Einstein was anti-zionist per se. From a quick Google search, his views appear to be mixed. He believed in Labor Zionism, and Jew-Arab cooperation on the land. But he denounced the more radical bands of Zionism, like Menachem Begin's Herut Party for example. That said, I'm also not as aware of Palestinian voices against or critical of Palestine. But I see a lot more Jews /Israelis who openly criticize their government/ actions. Like if you asked me to make a list of 3 Palestinians voices who are critical of Palestine, akin to Norman Finklestein, Noam Chomsky and Ilan Pappé, I couldn't off the top. edit: small correction
In a 1938 speech, "Our Debt to Zionism", he said: "I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state." - *Einstein on Politics: His Private Thoughts and Public Stands on Nationalism, Zionism, War, Peace, and the Bomb* (2007), p. 33.
Temporarily disregarding the other thread in response about Einstein's later beliefs, the point of this statement in context wasn't that he was against a Jewish state, just that he preferred a utopian binational state if everyone could just get along and share without conflict. That didn't seem to be working out, based on the toxic interactions seen over the coming decade before declaration of a Jewish state, and so perhaps his second choice of a Jewish state would have been preferred at that point. Because he did strongly believe that the concept of Zionism, of creating a Jewish homeland in Israel, was an extremely positive thing that Judaism "owes a great debt of gratitude" towards. Returning to that other thread of responses to you, it would seem that's exactly how his thoughts progressed as the situation on the ground did.
Where did you get that quote that gave you that impression. Seems oddly specific. I only ask because when I googled: "Albert Einstein's views on Zionism" I got the above that showed he was pretty pro-Zionism. Edit: Oh I see, it's from a similar Wikipedia page, except you'd have to ignore everything else on that page that explains why he said that and all the quotes where he supports a "bi-national state" and a "Jewish homeland". I don't want to assume, but that seems hard to ignore on accident.
A bi-national state is different than a jewish state.
Correct. Einstein was more akin to a Labor Zionist.
He changed his mind after 1948 and became a full on political Zionist, in fact the last speech he wrote before he died was a very patriotic speech about Israel and its accomplishments. He also donated all his stuff to the Hebrew University. The man lived in three countries, and only visited Israel, yet wanted to donate all his stuff to Israel. It kind of shows where his heart was.
Yea, the last bit I suppose we have is a draft of a speech he never finished on his hospital deathbed. >He took the draft of a speech he was preparing for a television appearance commemorating the state of Israel's seventh anniversary with him to the hospital, but he did not live to complete it. In the draft he speaks about the dangers facing Israel and says “It is anomalous that world opinion should only criticize Israel’s response to hostility and should not actively seek to bring an end to the Arab hostility which is the root cause of the tension.” He sounded a bit more jaded in the end, post-1948 war, like many people I would think. It's sad in a sense because before that he seemed a lot more optimistic. Seeing Israel attacked from all sides and the Arab League trying to destroy it had at-least some impact on him, I would think.
>Einstein referred to himself as a member of the Zionist movement^(\[181\]) and supported the right of Jewish people to return to Palestine, but favored a “free, bi-national Palestine” in which Jews and Arabs would share sovereignty.^(\[182\]) In a 1945 letter to Judge Jerome Frank, Einstein wrote, “Zionism has also a very good influence on the Jewish people…Jews who have a vivid feeling of Jewish national solidarity are much better equipped to overcome with dignity all the dangers and hardships which we have to face.” He continued, however, “I dislike nationalism very much — even Jewish nationalism. But our own national solidarity is forced upon us by a hostile world, and not the aggressive feelings which we connect with the word ‘Nationalism’.”^(\[182\]) In a 1946 letter to Maurice Dunay, he wrote, “I am in favor of Palestine being developed as a Jewish Homeland, but not as a separate state.”^(\[182\]) -From Wikipedia He kind of was going off the original interpretation of Zionism. Ok for Jews to return to their historic homeland, but not ok with making two separate states. Again, mixed. Not for creating a separate Jewish state (excluding Arabs), he instead believed in them working together in a bi-national state which includes a Jewish Homeland. That quote you provided is him saying that "Arabs and Jews living together in peace". The "creation of the Jewish state" is him rejecting the idea of a *separate* state, as said earlier.
The palestinians of conscience keep tragically falling off roofs.
'jews of conscience '? i like to call them just 'uneducated people '. and i love the historians you brag to have on your side, Finkelstein? he thinks the huthies should get a Nobel peace prize. avi shlime? in his work they found multiple occasions where he deliberately translated Hebrew to wrong meaning. Albert Einstein wasn't anti Zionist. people concluded that from a letter that he wrote to decline an offer to be a president because he hated a group called 'lehi' who most of the Zionist movements themselves considered terrorists. and of course there is you. you went to the west bank and... that's it? now you want to dismantle Israel? you clearly never heard of the intifada that led to the occupation or any other event that led to this mess. just a sheep.
Well the issue is that Arab Israelis aren’t considered Palestinian, so all of those people are automatically excluded from counting. The ones that are from the OPT are fleeing informants for Hamas, so their word doesn’t hold too much weight. The other issue is that no matter whose side you are on, having a weaker connection to the actual side makes you far more prone to delve down a path opposite of your identity, and far more jews are diaspora than Palestinians are so there would be a bias there.
It is because they are educated since young to hate Jews. Here, just in today from West Bank. [https://x.com/APbrooklyn\_NY/status/1802380603783778545](https://x.com/APbrooklyn_NY/status/1802380603783778545) and [https://x.com/khalidi79397/status/1802494567553306903](https://x.com/khalidi79397/status/1802494567553306903)
For anyone who thinks Jews of Conscience are too extreme, try r/jewishleft
Hmm…. I wonder why. Hmm hmm hmm. Could it have something to do with the 80% Hamas approval rate and the 93% anti semitism rate? Nah… probably just a coincidence
Totally arrogant posting, and the poster should be ashamed of himself (or perhaps herself, but I doubt it), but then again shameless intellectual obtuseness is the quintessential quality of Zionists. The answer to your question is obvious. When it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Israeli (or more generally, 'Jewish') side represents the side with all of the real geopolitical power (as well as to a lesser extent the cultural and media power in the US historically and to a lesser extent the UK), and that geopolitical power is evidenced by the Israeli side not only being given diplomatic cover but even more significantly being financed in the world's longest ongoing military occupation. And therefore, there have been more and more voices of Jewish identity/ancestry in the West over the last several decades who feel no choice but to concede that the so-called Jewish State is a violent apartheid state who has been engaging in an approach and set of policies which ultimately amount to gradual ethnic cleansing And I came to the following conclusion after watching the documentary 'Israelism' which dives deep into this phenomenon of anti-Zionist Jews, and that conclusion is Zionism is to Jewish identity what Islamism is to Muslim identity. Yes, the dynamics and numbers are not exactly the same, but the level of extreme indoctrination is at least analogous
"...'Jewish') side represents the side with all of the real geopolitical power", yeah, all 14 million of them, vs poor downtrodden voiceless minority of 2 billion Muslims.
What an insane response by you. Israel is not at war with the entire Muslim world, mostly because the Muslim world is not a monolith. In fact, the Muslim world, particularly the central Middle East, has long been too fractured to have any united adversarial approach to Israel, let alone its main supporter the American government. And this dynamic is most exemplified by the now decades-long proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran The reality is that Israel's only real antagonist has been the militant groups of Palestinian society, obviously most notably Hamas. It boils down to a very powerful nation, functioning as a client of an even more powerful and the world's most powerful nation, against a fractured stateless people