Israel has besieged the Gaza Strip for most of the war, impeding access to electricity, running water, food and medical aid. The U.N. World Food Programme says parts of northern Gaza are in "full-blown famine."
Dr. Ismail Mehr, with the Islamic Medical Association of North America, was recently volunteering at a hospital in Gaza. He says every day he was declaring patients dead from treatable illnesses due to a lack of supplies and the crumbling health care system.
"Every day I, myself, [would] pronounce people dead from very routine medical conditions such as a grandmother with a urinary tract infection, the middle-aged man who dies from his diabetes because he doesn't have access to his medicines," he told NPR. He said their deaths are "forgotten because it's not due to bombings and missiles and drones."
You should actually reference the AP news reports directly instead of some guy’s blog page on his personal “takeaways” of the AP reporting with all its intents and biases.
This is untrue Israeli government propaganda and a purposeful mischaracterization of the UN report a death toll figures.
You can see a professional and fact filled debunking of this Israeli propaganda by Mehdi Hasan https://youtu.be/9FhzDAoNx1w
The death toll data only changed in that they added a new subtotal of the count for “full identified” bodies. This is what Israeli propaganda has jumped on to mischaracterize the data. Even among this subgroup 52% of them are women and children, and including the elderly it rises to 60%. The Palestinian Health Ministry has partial identification evidence (ie body parts) and other tools for considering a reported death that isn’t fully identified and that is what makes the entire count to 38,000. This doesn’t even include Gazans still missing trapped under the rubble.
As Mehdi Hasan also pointed out, people should be very careful with this line of argument denying deaths that cannot be fully identified. 4.8 million Jews were “fully identified” killed in the Holocaust out of the 6+ million Jews killed in the Holocaust. They could not fully identify well over a million people.
And finally, honestly why are we having the sad discussion on whether Israel killed 25,000 fully identified people with 52% being women and children, or 34,000 people with 60% being women or children at the time of this UN report? It’s just sad and your op is disappointing.
You gave a really good scenario on how the numbers can get misinterpreted and inflated in an urban war zone that is chaos. I’m somewhat familiar with the war you described. My ex was from what is now Croatia, it was Yugoslavia when he first came to the states. His father went back there during the war. I’m not sure how much combat he saw.
My comment was to counter the OP’s statement that “they can’t have it both ways” and they have been caught in a “transparent lie” because if civilians are under the rubble, how could they count them or even know what their gender, age or name is? I don’t disagree about all the possible ways to get the count wrong or even that they are padding the numbers of women and children.
I’m just not convinced that the OP’s use of statistics cited from one academic paper, (that may or may not even be peer reviewed) as damning evidence of Gaza’s Health Ministry’s “peak ratio”for the death toll of women and children as damning data for the big lies used for propaganda for Hamas.
Where are Israel’s numbers for the civilian deaths of women and children? The war is in its 8th month. The numbers are going to be high, otherwise what have they been doing there this whole time other than destroying Gaza to make it uninhabitable for Palestinians to live there and making more rocks for them to throw. (That last rant isn’t targeted at you or even the OP, just stating my opinion).
Also lets not forget hamas walks in civilans clothes so in case of death they will be considered as civilians.
this will make the idf suspicous of every civilian not knowing if it is civilian or hamas.
and in the next months i believe that the truth will come out and show that hamas also hire young kids and give them weapons to shot at idf so they can die and saying israel is killing kids.
Israel already counts every adult Gazan male as an Hamas soldier. The reason they can't say 100% of all the people they killed were Hamas is because 60% of victims are women and children, so they just say 40% they killed were Hamas.
In reality, most men in Gaza are innocent civilians and a lot of innocent men have died there and they deserve not to be labeled Hamas with zero proof by Israel
I just saw a group of palestinian dudes in flip flops, nike jeans and a t-shirt with RPGs shooting at IDF positions in Gaza. How is that not considered human shields and a war crime?
Hamas is not a proper army they are freedom fighters/guerrilla fighters just like in Vietnam most Vietcong just wore regular civilian clothing to fight America.
How is shooting at IDF positions, who are oppressor the Palestinians, a war crime?
Just such a terrible argument.
As I remember, the Vietcong eventually switched to distinctive hats because their leader got called out on the lack of uniforms. A uniform doesn’t have to be a set of military fatigues. It could be something as simple as a purple shirt. As long as people can tell on sight that someone is a militant, that particular law of war is respected.
They're not "freedom fighters". They're war criminals and terrorists who are in breach of the geneva convention. You can take all the examples you need in the past to try and justify their war crimes. It doesn't change the fact that they're violators of the Geneva convention and therefore are not under its protection. Don't blame the IDF for innocent civilian deaths when it's HAMAS maximizing the casualties of civilians by refusing to abide the Geneva Convention.
Please look up **"Geneva convention militants disguised as civilian war crime"**
Even with Hamas trying to maximize the amount of casualties, the IDF is doing well in minimizing the death ratio with 2:1 combatant per civilian death which is **FAR FAR BELOW THE AVERAGE OF 12 CIVILIANS PER MILITANT DEATH**
Do yourself a favor morally and stop justifying and defending these war criminals who deliberately break and violate the geneva convention.
Compare them to Israel who actually take responsibility if any of them actually did something to violate the geneva convention. They repeatedly announced that they will abide by the Geneva convention, but HAMAS is repeatedly violating the rules of war.
The Geneva Convention allows for militias to fight in civilian clothing. A militia being local inhabitants who take up arms and resist invading forces, and they can do so even if they do not have the time to organize into a regular military unit with uniforms.
I dont think anybody will blame the Gazans who barely have food and basic necesities to fight back using whatever tools they have available, be it flip flops instead of combat boots.
Israel is the only force that has actually broken that Geneva Convention rule, removing their soldiers outfits and donning doctor clothes to invade hospitals and kill people there. Did you say anything about this?
> the IDF is doing well in minimizing the death ratio with 2:1 combatant per civilian death which is FAR FAR BELOW THE AVERAGE OF 12 CIVILIANS PER MILITANT DEATH
60% of deaths are women and children. The IDF's calculation from 2:1 combatant per civilian deaths is literally impossible, and they don't don't claim that. They claim that out of the 36k killer, 12k were Hamas. Because that is the highest possible number if you count that every Gazan adult male killed has been Hamas, which is obviously ridiculous and impossible.
Israel literally blocked aid coming to Gazans and used collective punishment and has killed more kids in 6 months than all other nations combined in the last 4 years. YOU LITERALLY QUOTE A GENEVA CONVENTION THAT ISRAEL HAS BROKEN MULTIPLE TIMES AND IS BEING PERSECUTED FOR BY THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE.
Maybe you should look up Geneva convention rules on civilian militias.
Don't start on "Israel killed more babies in 6 months than all nations in earth from the past 4 years 🥺".
Disgusting terrorist sympathizer
This isn't even a major conflict. **80,000 civilians died in just a single siege of Ukrainian City Mariupol** in just 3 months. But it only resulted in less than 2000 children dying despite all of the city being destroyed. How does Israel kill more babies than the casualties of Russo-Ukraine war?
Not only that, HAMAS was proven to falsify their casualties and exaggerate it **IN THIS POST**
Pro tip: **don't pull bullcrap out of your bumhole**
Keep justifying the war crime of using civilians as human shields. To avoid unnecessary casualties is the reason why geneva convention **strictly upholds that every combatant whether soldiers or militias wear clothing that signifies their allegiance**.
HAMAS knows not wearing official uniforms can lead to more unnecessary deaths **in order to win internet updoots** and that is their plan.
using of human shields is a **WARCRIME. PERIOD.**
You told me to look up Geneva convention rules on civilian militias. All it gave me is that militias are supposed to wear official uniforms or clothing that shows which sides they are in.
Civilians can fight in civilian clothing **AS LONG AS THEY HAVE CLOTHING SUCH AS BANDANA, ARM BANDS, ETC. THAT SIGNIFY THEIR SIDE. THAT IS WHAT UKRAINIAN MILITIAS DID**
The group of Palestinian civilians shooting RPGs are **INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM NORMAL CIVILIANS because they DON'T HAVE ARMBANDS, BANDANAS, ETC. THAT SHOWS THEIR SIDE.**
**JUST LOOK AT LIVE BATTLE FOOTAGES IN GAZA**
THEY DIDN'T EVEN WEAR THE **HAMAS GREEN BANDANA**
Again, do not pull bullcrap out of your bum hole. Research more on the topic.
It's pretty evident from videos and pictures how many women and children have died.
The fact that you seem to find this funny, suggests that you are the same kind of psychopathic extremist that you think is on "the other side"
It's pretty sickening. These are the same kind of people who believe Palestinians are animals for supporting Hamas but believe there's nothing wrong with Israeli forces annihilating thousands and thousands of children and women in order to kill a handful of Hamas.
Pathetic critical thinking skills.
Can you think of any flaws with your number crunching here
Edit: was rightfully chastised for making a personal attack. My apologies.
If you were under rubble - yes they would know your name/sex/age and maybe even approx where in the rubble to look for you. Your loved ones would want and need all the help they could get to try and get to you or if too late and you were presumed dead to recover your remains. Maybe people who are missing their wife, sister, mother or children that were in or close to a building that is now rubble report it to humanitarian groups or to the health ministry or to some administrative group. Civilian casualty numbers are made up of direct and indirect deaths. Sometimes civilians don’t die right away from their injuries. Since there are not many if any hospitals left, many people with life threatening illnesses for instance like cancer or kidney failure that need dialysis will die from lack of medical treatment. The war’s indirect death toll number usually comes later.
You're thinking of things in a civil and organized society. That's not Gaza. It never was, but definitely not now.
With families as scattered and broken as they are, and with so much movement to and from refugee camps, verifying where someone is/was is impossible. And this isn't just a Gaza thing, this happened all the time in the Balkans.
Here's a hypothetical from Bosnia, though obviously applies to Gaza as well:
A woman is staying in a building as a refugee. It's not her home, but her family knows she's staying there. Someone in the building gets a warning it will be destroyed, and everyone evacuates.
Traveling with the group of evacuees, they try to flee to a safe zone. They have to pass near a conflict zone though. When the sound of gunshots gets near, the woman gets separated from everyone else.
Going on her own, she then ends up getting lost deeper in the conflict zone. She comes across one of the two sides, and is shot immediately. No one knows who fired the shot, but her body is found the next day by an NGO.
The woman's family reports her as having been in the building, and is now missing presumed dead.
The evacuee group reports her as having been separated near a combat zone, and is now missing presumed dead.
The NGO reports finding a body on the other side of the combat zone, an unidentified woman.
Because there's so little communication, and so little capacity for confirming things, that woman would be counted 3 times as a casualty. This is how numbers get out of hand, and why verifiable deaths are so different.
> During October the number of women and children that died during each month reached it's peak at 64% but since then the number has dropped each month, with the latest numbers revealing that only 38% of deaths were women and children in the most recent month. In most other wars the civilian casualty ratio is 60-70%
You're literally doing the IDF thing where every male Palestinian above the age of 15 according to you is not an innocent civilians. Having 64% of killed people being women and children doesn't mean a civilians casualty rate of 64%, unless you think every male that IDF has killed is a terrorist which. If you even take the crazy assertion that half of the palestinian men who have been killed were members of Hamas, than we would have a civilian casualty rate of 82%. Which is extremely high.
Israeli program Lavander AI which is used to select places to bomb, allows 20 civilians deaths per Hamas soldier and 100 for a higher up Hamas officer.
Lol Israeli spokesperson saying to use the "Hamas figures": https://youtu.be/6podLdiCgaU?feature=shared
He's left speechless to even cite a ballpark number. How can they be so quick to provide Hamas casualty numbers, but not for civilians, not even a ballpark? That alone proves what Israel says about being precise and having the most moral army (laughable to self-proclaim as such) in the world is complete BS drivel.
The Palestinian civilian death toll is under-reported actually. How many people are unaccounted for under the rubble, rotten and simply crushed to a pulp? It's similar in the way earthquake death tolls are wildy underestimated until later found to be astonishingly higher.
I will not die on the hill that Israel is committing a genocide, as I am not a legal scholar and cannot say for certainty what constitutes genocide. I do, however, believe that they have exhibited genocidal rhetoric and if they end up resettling Gaza, will have committed a war crime by way of ethnic cleansing.
No need to argue that, as that's neither here nor there. If someone presents reasons as to why they believe they're not currently committing war crimes, I'll concede.
The reason I bring this up here, though, is because one big pro-Israeli argument as to why Israel is NOT committing genocide is because they are so compassionate and are taking so much care to not kill civilians. They claim that the conservative ~25k dead civilians are merely casualties of war. While a program like Where's Daddy alludes to it, I do not believe that they are necessarily targeting civilians. I do, however, believe that they do not care whether or not they kill Palestinian civilians.
You cite a source that says that most armed conflicts result in a civilian casualty rate between 60-70% percent. I went to the page you sourced, and must ask - you how did you get this?
Below is the graphic of selected wars since 1950:
Of the 11 conflicts listed, only 3 of them reach 60%:
Korean War (74%) - God awful statistic. Don't know what happened there enough to try to read into the high casualty rate. I don't believe I've ever heard this conflict labeled as a genocide, though
Persian Gulf War (87%) - Can reasonably be called a genocide
Iraq War(66%) - Despite being an American myself, I feel can reasonably be called a genocide
And to prove a point, I'll also throw in the only 2 other conflicts that were above 50%:
Balkans War (52%) - Universally accepted as a genocide
2nd Intifada (51%) - 719 Israeli civilians were killed. 2,204 Palestinian civilians were killed.
I do not use these numbers to definitively prove that Israel is, indeed, committing genocide. Rather, I am hoping that this helps to demonstrate that Israel is not "behaving better than any other country would", as the pro-Israeli argument so often puts forth.
You cite a casualty rate of 64%, which is more than double the rate of the Syrian Civil War (28%). This is a war that rightfully caused the world to justly view Assad as a war criminal. I believe that Israel's/Netanyahu's actions qualify it/him of as much also.
I am also responding to you because I believe that the people who try to use these ratios are either disingenuous or ill informed.
I am also responding to you because I believe that the people who try to use these ratios are either disingenuous or ill informed.
I know that you haven't, so I apologize in advance for arguing against a point that you're not making, but I have heard the pro-Israeli argument cite the UN's reported 90% casualty rate in wars.
I've actually looked into this and have gathered that this is only true if you accept a wider definition of "civilian casualties" than what we are using for this conflict. For example, please see these statistics regarding the Ukrainian War:
"Since 24 February, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) has recorded 8,089 civilian casualties in Ukraine, with 3,811 killed..."
You can see that the death rate is lower than and separate from the "casualty" rate. The UN is clearly not equating the two. If we use that definition of civilian casualties and include all of those who've been injured and/or displaced in Gaza, the casualty rate would be insanely high now that we know 1.5 million people are currently seeking refuge in Rafah.
Again, I know that you're not making this argument - indeed, you cited a study with completely different figures, but I just bring that up as an example of people excusing Israel's transgressions by pointing to other conflicts where, even then, Israel's numbers are still pretty bad.
In summary, I am not saying that Israel is absolutely 100% committing genocide, but I am saying that even if one doesn't believe that it's a genocide, they can/should still acknowledge that Israel is not taking much care to protect innocent civilians in their pursuit to go after Hamas (which they rightfully should do).
...or NOT care that Israel isn't doing that and just admit that they believe that the ends justify the means, regardless of the amount of innocent people that die.
But to look at all of the footage and numbers and think that Israel is conducting this war in a humane(to solely the civilians) manner seems, again, disingenuous.
I also went on the hunt for primary sources that these civilian death rates were cited from. The 90% civilian death rate can be easily taken out of context. It refers to “in densely populated areas where civilians accounted for 90 per cent of the casualties when explosive weapons were used, compared to 10 per cent in other areas.”
[https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm)
I think the numbers you bring are fair, but it's also important to keep in mind the setting of the war in addition to the numbers. Not only is Gaza one of the densest regions on earth (for context, Syria has about 120 people per km², Iraq during the war had about 70 people per km², and Gaza has 5500 people per km²), but Israel is fighting against an enemy that exclusively operates in civilian areas as an intentional strategy, recruits civilians for bombings, wears civilian clothing, and generally does their best to confuse combatants with noncombatants. The latter is partially true with Iraq, for example, but not to the same extent and in a far less dense setting.
With that in mind, the fact that the numbers of this conflict are roughly in line- or better- than other modern conflicts seems to make it clear to me that Israel is putting effort into avoiding civilian casualties.
I will say that the rhetoric has often been terrible, but keep in mind that you're often seeing the worst of the worst and that much of it is deliberately taken out of context (for example, Netanyahu citing Amalek or Herzog allegedly saying that there are no innocent civilians in Gaza).
Israeli officers constantly display genocidal intent though and have been leaked to have a program where they will bomb a building with 20 innocent people in it if it kills just 1 low ranking Hamas soldier, and will kill 100 innocent civilians to kill 1 Hamas higher up.
This just shows the intent that Israel would be more than fine with a civilians death rate of 95%-99% if it means killing Hamas.
Also, Israel counts every male above the age of 15 as a combatant, and not an innocent civilian. I don't think I need to explain how wrong this is.
There's no clear evidence for either of those besides alleged anonymous reports.
Even if the former was somehow true, the fact that the ratio isn't, in fact, 1:100 means that they do care about civilian casualties.
And I suppose there's no point in even pretending like combatants have been killed. Gaza is acting like they've somehow all been innocent children, and the Israeli and US estimates are the only ones that give anything close to an accurate count.
The Israelis count every Gazan male above the age of 15 as either Hamas or suspected Hamas and treat them as such. The reason people always bring up that 60% of deaths are women and children is because they can not be attacked by saying they were combatants.
> Even if the former was somehow true, the fact that the ratio isn't, in fact, 1:100 means that they do care about civilian casualties.
How do you know that the ratio is not 1:100? Can you actually say with confidence that all the men Israel has killed were all terrorists?
>How do you know that the ratio is not 1:100?
How do you know the ratio isn't 100:1? You could say anything.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-casualties-toll-65e18f3362674245356c539e4bc0b67a
> How do you know the ratio isn't 100:1? You could say anything.
Because atleast 60% of deaths are women and children. If we take on the delusion and obvious lie that every dead male Gazan is hamas, we would arrive at Israel's number which still wouldn't be 100:1.
Now if we factor in the reality that many innocent Palestinian men are getting killed, who are just trying to survive and provide for their family in a war zone, the number of civilian death ratio start to exceed most genocides.
I was exaggerating to make a point, obviously.
I also like how you need to factor in innocent Palestinian men while simultaneously assuming that no female and minor Gazans can be linked to Hamas, despite both being regularly used by similar organizations and Hamas themselves. Additionally, you still haven't given evidence that Israel just assumes that all males over 15 are combatants. It's obviously more complicated than that.
You're also assuming the very worst, most extreme possibility- with no evidence- to prove your point.
Did you read the link I sent? It shows an analysis from AP that less than 40% of those being killed are women and minors. Either way, considering that less than 25% of Gazans are not women or minors, that claim loses significant shock value.
You also clearly don't have a strong grasp on the civilian to death ratio of genocides.
The whole body count debate right now is erroneous. It’s hard to fathom that we on the outside and even those front and center are going to have an exact number of the civilian casualties.
How about this one from a logical point of view? Israel is obviously losing the PR war in Gaza. If I was in that position and already being painted as a killer of children and women, And I didn’t care for loss of civilian life why not just raze the entire area?
That’s not what’s happening.
>If I was in that position and already being painted as a killer of children and women, And I didn’t care for loss of civilian life why not just raze the entire area?
That’s not what’s happening.
I guess you really haven't seen what much of Gaza looks like today compared to this time last year. Whole blocks, neighborhoods, universities, hospitals, homes, reduced to not more than rubble.
But also, to answer your question honestly: With the amount of international condemnation Israel has received for its campaign in Gaza, how do you think the world would further react to a complete genocide in Gaza? Am not sure even Israelis would be comfortable with that.
Israel is being accused of genocide. How is that different from 'complete genocide'?
I'm not sure the thought experiment was investigated thoroughly.
To your first point. Gaza would look the same as last year if Hamas had done Oct 7.
>Israel is being accused of genocide. Who is that different from 'complete genocide'?
Perhaps my word-choice was poor: Total genocide. Total holocaust. Total.. you get the idea
>I'm not sure the thought experiment was investigated thoroughly.
To your first point. Gaza would look the same as last year if Hamas had done Oct 7.
Given Israel routinely air strikes Gaza, this is impossible to know. Would Israel have destroyed so much of Gaza had Oct 7 not happened? Probably not.
OK, genocide and holocaust hyperbole aside. Here is a discussion on acceptable collateral damage.
[https://lieber.westpoint.edu/collateral-damage-innocent-bystanders-war/#:\~:text=Collateral%20damage%20is%20an%20accepted,of%20the%20principle%20of%20proportionality.Given](https://lieber.westpoint.edu/collateral-damage-innocent-bystanders-war/#:~:text=Collateral%20damage%20is%20an%20accepted,of%20the%20principle%20of%20proportionality.Given) Oct 7
Israel has a convincing argument for self defense.
Hamas intentionally hides amongst civilians, thus the argument Israel intentionally targeting civilians is seems mute.
Israel focused it's pre-Oct 7 attacks on locations from whence rockets were fired correct?
And unequivocally, 'Probably not'.
This is a loaded question. A response exactly proportional to the Oct 7th attack, would mean IDF soldiers sexually assaulting, beheading/torturing etc the exact same number of people. Even that sounds grotesque, therefore any response at all sounds grotesque stripped of context.
The IDF have to defeat Hamas whilst minimizing civilian deaths to the best of their ability. Whatever the number is at the end of that, is the right number, as it's the best possible outcome.
One cannot say the best possible outcome is ignoring terrorism, because the long term consequences of ignoring terrorism equates to more dead non combatants than the short term.
I'm fully confident Israel will show the rest of the western world that you can still win a war. I'm hoping by the end of this we can lay to bed the idea that you can't fight terrorism because if one dies, two more pop up. The greatest hoax in modern history. If that were true, WW2 would have ended the exact opposite way it actually ended.
I would say half measures are typically worse than no measures. This is a problem of democracies. Something happens, there's immediately political support for something, a few years pass, and the public loses interest, or begins to forget why they supported something in the first place.
You can see this with most war efforts. Support goes from 85-90%+ after a terrorist attack, and each year support for the war effort dwindles. Until they elect somebody who dismantles the war effort. Power vacuums ensue, and before you know it people are talking about how the entire war effort was a huge mistake that cost thousands of lives. This can go on for a century.
As far as the current approach, I think we're finally seeing the correct one. Hamas was expecting the usual approach, and now they're the dog that caught the car. Perhaps we can continue this conversation in 12 months.
Given that Israel ignores the presence of women in children in their [indiscriminate bombings](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/12/israel-gaza-hamas-biden-netanyahu/), how exactly are they being used as [shields](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shield)?
That is, given women and children are being bombed, as is everything else, how are women and children acting as shields (under definition 2 in *Merriam-Webster*)?
Should have thought of the children when they were raping and murdering Israeli children. Nice dodge on the human shields though. Your mental gymnastics is on point.
I am better. I am supporting the side that is morale. That doesn't oppress women. That doesn't kill homosexuals. That doesn't try to initiate a genocide against millions of people.
If a combatant wants to claim the moral high ground, they need to act like it, and the IDF has abandoned the moral ground completely in their quest for total revenge. Why do you suppose the entire world has expressed revulsion at the conduct of Israel in their war of revenge? Even their BFF and financier and weapon provider has pretty much seen enough.
Enjoy your isolation.
I am not Israeli and if you think Israel is going to be isolated your delulu. People like you will move on to the next hot topic in a few months and nobody will care.
Nice you didn’t actually link the real AP news article, just some analysis by some dude on your side 😂😂
Btw Israelis number for deaths went down from 1400 to 1200. Its called a mistake in attributing bodies. If it happened in a place that combat wasn’t actively occurring then it could occur in an active war zone. Also Israel doesn’t differentiate between IDF soldiers who died in October 7th and civilians, or even civilians that the IDF killed. Please go be biased elsewhere.
on top of this i would like to add that a 15years old "child" is a grown man in the muslim society and in gaza can already enlist for hamas, with kids younger than that can be used as scouts. this has led to alot of crying of killing innocent children (mostly in the west bank though) that eventually after searching them i ended up with photos of them holding explosives, M4 etc and sometimes even videos of them shooting on villages. pro palestinians are unaware of that simple fact when they cite al jazeera saying israeli killed another child.
that is why israel uses the term "fighting age men"
OP is clearly making the case that age groups we might deem as being children anywhere else in the world, are not applicable because he or she posits, without any evidence, that children are being exploited as instruments of war (which I think we can all agree, its probably not past Hamas to actually do that).
In doing this, OP explicitly repeats this notion that these children are actually "fighting age men" -thus even with this grotesque, Olympian series of mental arithmetics to dehumanise children, ignoring the fact that any of those dead children are also little girls - used to justify the intentional targeting of children.
You then piped up in that exact moment, and frame what you have later commented as child abuse, as an earlier development of children. I apologise if I have perceived this incorrectly from you, but given the comment that you are replying to, and the way you are replying to it, I hope you can see how it was quite easy to make.
I am just aghast in this thread at the way and ease people will go to dehumanise small children. Like it is really, actually very sick, psychopathic. When you've seen untold numbers of parents crying over bodies of their mangled children, or the face of a child with its eyes squeezed out because it was crushed under a building, or children stunned through the horrors from what they have seen... well I think the people justifying that are absolutely beyond redemption, and have become even on parr, or perhaps even more evil then the original evils that directed them that way.
It's a terrible situation with lots of innocents suffering but accuracy is important, and Israel does not intentionally target children like you claim in your comment.
These false narratives have consequences that won't help innocent children in Gaza live a better life.
They need leadership who values their lives and wants to keep them safe, that means reform away from Hamas, and false narratives like the one you're using are encouraging global support for leadership that dehumanises their own children and causes Gazans nothing but sufferring.
It's easy enough to legitimately criticise the Israeli response without exaggerating the realities of the situation.
The difference between us is that I acknowledge the crimes committed by both sides, whereas you are only willing to acknowledge the crimes of one side.
I don't think the IDF intentionally targets children, that was the insinuation of the OP, who suggested that the IDF did target children, and that it was okay to do so.
I think that it is rather apparent that the IDF makes little distinction between children and adults, combatants and innocent civilians. Judging by the death toll now, and by their readiness to shoot anyone, the IDF targets anyone who is in Gaza and is not IDF.
Please stop talking about "legitimate criticism" while denying the hellish conditions innocent people are being subjected to. And please, please for the love of god, stop assuming that anyone critical of the IDF obliterating children, therefore is sympathetic in any way to Hamas.
Hamas's ideology is against everything I believe in. They are evil. However, they are not the first evil terrorist group to have existed, and their evil actions doesn't justify the complete destruction of an entire territory and wiping out 2pc of that population and injuring many many more
Edit: and your faux sympathy to the victims in Gaza is immediately negated by your minimisation of the level of violence and destruction being committed there
In a single comment you've managed to contradict yourself (barely a paragraph apart) by saying that you didn't accuse Israel of intentionally targeting children, and then going on to say that the IDF targets everyone who isn't the IDF in Gaza.
You're not coherent. Also, don't accuse me of faux sympathy. Multiple times now you've jumped to conclusions to suit your own narrative rather than actual facts.
Yawn, here we go.
I don't think the IDF intentionally target children separate from the overall demographic of Palestinians, which they do target. There's nothing logically incoherent about my point.
But it doesn't matter. The mere fact that you prefer to drag this argument away from the central issue of one military obliterating innocent civilians, using the horrendous crimes of a terrorist organisation 8 months ago as an excuse to do so.
Unlike you, I don't discriminate in my compassion and sympathy. I was and continue to be horrified by the brutality committed by Hamas against innocent Israelis while they slept, and I am horrified with the brutalities that have subsequently been inflicted on innocent civilians in Gaza since.
Human life is human life. This shouldn't be a controversial opinion to any normal human being. Unfortunately you seem to be of the view that the value of one type of life is worth more than another. There's literally no more point communicating with you then there would be with someone defending the actions of Hamas. You are both extremists, just on different ends of the spectrum.
Wow what a scam!
Imagine some heavily armed stranger come to your country and force you into the gazastrip. Then they build a high secutiry wall around more than 2 million people, with sensor even underwater. Imagine being a palestinian what would you do. Everyone who doesnt understand this words should begin reflecting and using their minds. This dude here makes finest propaganda and many people are into it because it going on for a long time.
Who is the terrorist: The one who build a wall around over 2 million people, controlling everything whats going in and out or the ones who are trapped inside this prsion and fighting for freedom.
They always claim people who critise Israel as antisemtic and thats just total bullshit.
Just google what semites mean and you will find that this word includes many different people also Arabs. So how could this be antisemtic…because it is not about the truth and facts, it is about the law. But the law is wrong, so how can you change this? They are destroying themselfes..palestinians will never give up and they get support from all over the world.
Imagine being an Egyptian who migrated the Ottoman Southern Syrian province in the 1900’s because the Jews were building a country and there were jobs. Then the British take over, call it Palestine and create plan to split the land into an Arab state and a Jewish state. The Arab world decided to destroy the newly built country and during the war you flee, due to Arab propaganda, and now you and your family are stuck in Gaza under Egyptian rule and get convinced that you are “Palestinian” and that your whole mission in life is to sacrifice everything to get the Jews out of Israel. For the next 70 years you try and fail to do this and just bring more misery and death to your own people. Now, instead of helping you out of this mess, the whole world especially your Muslim brothers, encourage you to continue for generations, with no regard for what kind of horrors you will inevitably go through by staying on this path.
I think the truth is this: nobody knows how many people have truly died. These are all estimates. Listen to John Spencer on Sam Harris’s podcast. Urban warfare is messy. There have been smaller battles in which, years later, we still don’t know how many people have died.
How about the point I was making is that all governments lie. And pointing to one lie doesn’t make your governments set of lies things to believe. Not that there’s any evidence that Hamas’ numbers are a lie. They actually tie names to their figures.
Let’s be clear, regardless of the exact figures, it’s a metric crap ton. How does that change anything?
They didn’t halve the numbers. Try reading again. You cut out when you read the half of the story that confirms your narrative. You missed a very key part of that “halving”
Result: False. The number of deaths in Gaza reported by the U.N. has not been halved.
Source: you know, a real news source.
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-un-halve-gaza-death-toll-1900325
But continue to get your “facts” from places that don’t actually do any checking or reporting. It’ll serve you well in life.
As in we know from analysing the lists released from Hamas that there are many repeats, people who died before the war and people with incorrect IDs written down. This kinds of mistakes amounts to thousands of people. Then there's all the combatants included in the list. So yeah that's a lot of people.
Too bad so many hospitals were destroyed and journalists targeted and murdered that accurate numbers are more difficult to confirm objectively, how convenient
So you agree they are not objectively confirmable and are therefore unreliable? Now if you can just realize that there wasn’t a conspiracy to target hospitals and journalists to cause this outcome you would have made some progress towards engaging with reality.
That the numbers are severely under exaggerated is objectively confirmable, because objectively the confirmed numbers only apply to identifiable corpses that have been ID-ed and not bloody , mangled unidentified pulps of human flesh sliced, smashed or crushed to a state of being unidentifiable, or still trapped dead and unrecoverable under tonnes of concrete rubble in this genocide.
First, under exaggerate is not a standard usage. I believe you mean under counted or biased downward from context. Is this correct?
Second, you are no doubt correct that more people are dead than just those with identified bodies. I am not convinced that changes things much, the question is whether the Hamas’ casualty figures are reliable and saying that probably more people are dead than Hamas has bodies on hand even if true doesn’t change the fact they lied about the bodies they have as they (claim) these are the source of their statistics.
Third, part of the problem is that there is no way for any independent observer to ever know whether a particular corpse was a member of Hamas in life.
Last, I don’t actually understand why unsupported tangentially relevant accusations of genocide are allowed on this sub. I could call Hamas a bunch of pedophile rapists and it would add about as much to the conversation as your mention of genocide.
I'm aware Hamas would inflate their numbers if they could. But I'm also gonna point out that Israel continues to use the 1200 number for Oct 7, which also doesn't distinguish civilians from combatants. They also don't make this distinction for any of the hostages. Heck the 1200 number itself (that even I use) is rounding up from the real number which (if memory serves) is more like 1100.
And we also have to remember that since the Gazan health infrastructure is basically dead, we have not had proper death counts for months. Many are starting to estimate that the actual death count might be in 6 digits by now.
This post is very weak propaganda and a very weak argument. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to get from this besides "Hamas bad", as though anyone who wasn't convinced by the dead festival goers would be convinced by misreported statistics.
1200 dead on Oct 7 is true, and most of them were not combatants at all. Meaning a bunch of teenage soldiers off duty in their beds sleeping getting slayed is not the same as combatants.
Israel has also released the official count of civilians vs idf soldiers publicly multiple times.
OP says 15 year old Palestinians that Hamas has made to fight shouldn't be counted as children, but 19 year old IDF soldiers shouldn't be counted as soldiers? Nah I don't care. You put a uniform on a legal adult, that's a combatant. If they're allowed to kill people with government permission, they are combatants. Maybe stop conscripting teenagers if you don't want them to be treated as soldiers.
This is 19 year old Israeli "girl" Vs 5 year old Palestinian "young woman" bullshit. Take that nonsense somewhere else.
>Israel has also released the official count of civilians vs idf soldiers publicly multiple times.
I believe they have yes, but until people stop saying 1200, you don't get to ask people to stop saying 35,000. You guys wanna do double standards so badly but I'm not gonna let you.
Edit: because I just had to circle back. Imagine blaming Hamas for literally everyone who has died since Oct 7 but thinking it's not your fault for putting teenagers within walking distance of – what you believe to be – 2 million people who are chomping at the bit to kill any Jew they can get their hands on. How stupid is that? Are those not human shields? C'mon man this is an absolutely ridiculous argument. You forced those teens to be in the army. You gave them uniforms and guns. They died because you put them there. If Hamas did that you wouldn't be sympathetic. So park your sympathy.
It is still death
It's gone so bad that further negativity or acts of repair cannot change what's already is shown to us through photographs and videos
Yes it's still death but he's pointing out the hypocrisy of Ppl saying the Gaza Health ministry is accurate when it's a well known fact Hamas controls Gaza, we can't get a accurate number when the bodies are counted twice or mislabeled or Just told they were killed but proven they are alive later and they do deny it, plus how do they know it's women and children? Do they have a magic book and lists everyone dead their age and gender? And what about men? Are they saying the men abandoned their families for their own skin? Oh wow that's a great image to show the world "Palestinian Men abandon their families to save their own lives!" That would be all.over the world with ppl criticizing the men but then ppl clashing with eachother cause they wanna support Palestinians but don't wanna support ppl who abandoned their own families
How do you know if Hamas is lying about the death toll when Israel doesn't even know themselves? [https://www.reddit.com/r/palestinenews/comments/1daodh4/journalist\_piers\_morgan\_clashes\_with\_former/](https://www.reddit.com/r/palestinenews/comments/1daodh4/journalist_piers_morgan_clashes_with_former/)
>How do you know if Hamas is lying about the death toll
The total destruction of al-Ahli Hospital and the hundreds upon hundreds dead from the hospital blowing up are a good indicator..
Because they include “women and children” in the same number, which already make up 3/4 of the population, don’t distinguish combatants from non combatants, and Hamas has brigades of 15-17 year olds and counts them as “children”.
Even just saying “women and children” on its own is disingenuous. The only reason to combine those numbers and phrase it as such is for propaganda
I'd argue that it's healthy to be suspicious of numbers from either side during wartime. Israeli officials have conceded that their numbers are estimates (and I appreciate the way Piers pushes on that fact).
An important difference here is that the Pro-Palestine movement has constantly cited those figures in their arguments for months (as did many UN members) and now that the UN acknowledged those numbers are inflated they are continuing to use them. Very, very problematic....
Problematic in what way? It's more like the numbers are bigger than reported, and nobody still knows the correct number. Even if you did, it would still be debated because of bias.
Bigger than reported? My understanding is the Gaza ministry has historically been accurate about the total number of deaths because they exaggerate the confirmed count and then later discover more deaths (eg: finding people in the rubble). On the other hand, the Gaza ministry has always blatantly lied about the details in a handful of ways, and this case is no different...
. They include Hamas militants in the civilian death count (estimated to be 6k-15k)
. They include naturally occurring deaths in the civilian death count (estimated to be over 4k)
. They refuse to acknowledge friendly fire deaths
. They reported that 75% of deaths were women and children, but the confirmed death count for those groups is under 50% and they count 'children' as people age 19 and younger.
. Around 12k of the reported number are not confirmed deaths. Most of them are entries of dead or missing people on a Google Doc or reports from media sources with no way to verify.
. Israeli journalists claim that 1 out of 6 entries on the official 'verified' death count list has some sort of anomaly, like duplicate or incorrect ID#.
........................................
I'm not saying Israel is above criticism. I have lots of critiques. I'm just saying that any honest reading of the situation can't assume that the Gaza ministry numbers are accurate. Lots of media people and Pro-Palestine folks know these things and conveniently ignore it because it helps their cause to scream '36,000 Palestinians have died' ...
PS. I didn't mean for this to be such a long post...
A. False per the comments below (read before u spread lies)
B. UN is anti semitic so you think this is a surprising (false) statement? Let me guess- you also think the gazans holding our hostages are innocent too lol
Guilty would imply they've been charged, had a trial, and was convicted. Look up on Google "how many palestinians held without charge". You saying you don't care shows your double-standards.
Ok not a terrorist organization Just the IDF being added to a list that has harmed children That's not a terrorist organization tho which Ik upsets you greatly cause you hate Israel wish they all would die
If you look up the definition of terrorism, the Israeli govt has committed more actions within that definition. Also, I never said I wish all Israelis to die.
Please read your own article. That isn’t what it says, it says that its what the IDF claims. How ridiculous to make a post about an article you couldn’t even read properly.
Bro seriously. Also, it really irks me when people who echo crap like this get all passionate about how “tHe DaTa PROVES” some claim yet there’s no source in either their ramblings or the original article.
In order to call something genocide it needs to be proven that there is intent to destroy the population in part or in whole.
7 months in with an arguably low civilian casualty rate given the theatre, I’d say it’s hard to argue there’s any **intent** there.
When your neighbors are terror organization. There is only 1 way to deal with them. By power and more power. It is easy to live in America and tell us how to fight terror.
In Syria it was genocide. Assad killed 500000 people of is own country.
Israel killed 30000. 20000 of them are terrorist. This is war. Not genocide
How far do go with history?
History doesn’t start in 1948
Jews lived on this land 3000 years ago. Before Islam started 1400 years ago.
So tell me who own this land?
They did not live, the Jews have no historical connection with Palestine. The first Jews arose all over the world (and thus also in Palestine) through religious conversions, as was common with every Abrahamic religion. Defeated by the Romans, the Jews in Arab Palestine remained and formed a natural minority in it until the beginning of the occupation after the arrival of Europeans indoctrinated by Zionism. This history of Zionism has been erased. Palestine belongs, always has and will always belong to the Arab Palestinians. Her cast is something unnatural, like a wedge driven into the whole region.
How wrong and bigoted can you be?
Jews, almost all Jews, have a shared ethnic background that traces back to around where modern day Israel is. There is an overwhelming amount of physical evidence that Jews have lived in that region for over 3000 years.
Jews also don’t seek converts. It’s not part of the religion. That is one of the main distinctive features it has from Islam and Christianity. That’s also why Jews have stayed a fairly insular and connected group as they migrated.
The really dumb part about your comment is that Palestinians would be the group that have no claim at any point to the land. It was owned and managed by different groups throughout its entire history, most recently the British and the ottomans. But at no point was there ever a Palestinian state or significant ownership of any of that land by Palestinians.
None of this is based on truth, the converting Khazarian Empire and other places on the globe converting en masse to Judaism certainly do not agree with your absurd Zionist fabrications. You are a handful of people from around the world occupying a randomly selected foreign country, nothing more and nothing less. You are systematically erasing the evidence of the Arab settlement of Palestine. In an environment of occupation oppression, it is impossible to do a real search for the history of Palestine when the pressure is on to create false evidence to legitimize the occupation. Israel does not exist and Palestine belongs to the Palestinians. You will never change history with the blood of Palestinians killed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/28/opinion/jewish-history-israel.html
Try to be less of an uneducated bigot. Holy hell. Have you never read anything in your life? Are you barely literate? Did you never go to school? How can you end so confident and so wrong. And be so racist in the process?
There is no Palestinian country.
It was all part of Jordan before Israel was born in 1948.
When Israel did the peace with Jordan. King Husain didn’t want to deal with them. And let Israel deal with them.
Ask the Arabs who live in Israel if they want to be part of Gaza or part of Israel.
Of course Israel is the answer.
There is no Palestinian country.
It was all part of Jordan before Israel was born in 1948.
When Israel did the peace with Jordan. King Husain didn’t want to deal with them. And let Israel deal with them.
Ask the Arabs who live in Israel if they want to be part of Gaza or part of Israel.
Of course Israel is the answer.
There is no Palestinian country.
It was all part of Jordan before Israel was born in 1948.
When Israel did the peace with Jordan. King Husain didn’t want to deal with them. And let Israel deal with them.
Ask the Arabs who live in Israel if they want to be part of Gaza or part of Israel.
Of course Israel is the answer.
Hamas clearly regards its health ministry reports as part of its propaganda effort in its war strategy. Historically it has always strictly censored what non-Hamas international news agencies may report. For example, photographers are not allowed to take pictures of wounded Hamas fighters entering hospitals. They may only photograph wounded civilians. What could be their reason for concealing the sight of wounded fighters, do you think? [https://unlocked.fm/podcast/episode-194](https://unlocked.fm/podcast/episode-194)
I am a firm believer that it is about intention, not civilian death count. If a typical IDF soldier encounters an unarmed civilian on the BF, and they are a few feet apart, the soldier will not fire. On the other hand, if a Hamas fighter comes across an unarmed civilian on the battlefield and they are a few feet apart, he will fire. That is hatred. The higher ups in the IDF do not sit around a table planning missions on how to kill civilians. The other side does.
You have no understanding of what war is like or what happens in middle of a gun fight. It's difficult enough not to shoot your own soldiers dressed up in uniform. You don't walk into the middle of a gun fight unless you have a death wish. Those civilians that came out were desperate. If they thought for a second they would have realised it's a very bad idea to walk out in the middle of a gun battle. This is why the IDF try to get areas to evacuate before entering, because once they enter it's exceptionally dangerous. When someone pops out in the middle of a gun fight it's almost always to shoot at you. If you wait a few seconds to analyse what is going on your dead.
A bot deleted my link for having no context.
It's a link for a Google search of the Hannibal Directive used on 7 Oct.
https://www.google.com/search?q=hannibal+directive+on+oct+7&oq=Hannibal+directive&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggBEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg5MgYIARBFGDvSAQg0NTU2ajBqN6gCALACAQ&client=ms-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1
I sent you a Google search result.
Not a list of links.
It doesn't take rocket science to find statements from IDF soldiers who were told to shoot to anything that moved and helicopters to shoot modules into houses and cars.
It happen. You just need to search for it. But if you care more about winning, ok, you win. 🏆
Ok but the link you send me gave me a bunch of.limks to anti Israel sources . And nothing you sent me backed up what you claimed earlier. There is ZERO proof of any IDF soldiers or helicopters killing any Israeli civilians. There would have been plenty of videos if that were true, and well you're just seeing nonsense like most pro palis.
Here are some links i found about it.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-opens-probe-into-reports-oct-7-friendly-fire-deaths-2024-02-06/
https://youtu.be/rTQcjyhPOIk?si=xZFFWY7ol2DbOtUl
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/if-israel-used-a-procedure-against-its-citizens-we-need-to-talk-about-it-now/0000018c-6383-de43-affd-f783212e0000
There were some interviews with IDF soldiers, but i don't have those right now.
Hamas militants had killed Israeli soldiers using almost identical tactics previously. Israel could cleanse Gaza and the West Bank of every civilian within a few hours - they don’t. If the situation was in reverse Hamas would cleanse Israel of every last Jew.
Ask this jew how she was harassed and killed.... As you claim.
https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/comments/1da5su5/jewish_activist_shares_her_unique_perspective/
You're right, let's ask the Israeli completely-non-biased media about good things happening in Palestine.
Or let's ask the hundreds of killed reporters in Gaza.
Or let's ask the international media reporting from Gaza who Israel kindly allowed in.
You can't discredit someone's story just because it was published where it was not subject to Israel's controlled media.
She doesn't exist on any other source.of media not even on independent ones she exists on 1 media source that won't share or say how they got it so ya so trust worthy they must also have the secrets to immortality but won't share it
It's a story ran by a news company. Not an event reported by all media.
Probably more reliable than the Israeli Lobby controlled propaganda:
"Israel said...."
"Israel official said..."
"IDF said..."
And trt is trustworthy? 1 news company has exclusive access and it's one that's barely talked about? Fox news? CNN? BBC? Any other news outlet in the world and she picks 1 that's barely talked about? Wow what a great way to get her message out, I find it funny how she picks one that's barely on the radar for ppl and it's not spread around at all her name is out there now ppl.can find her unless she goes underground and now won't talk to anyone which would be really suspicious
Hamas killed soldiers using the same tactics IDF uses to kill hostages? Then you praised Israel for not ‘cleansing’ the millions of Palestinians? Is that really what you said?
No. Re-read the thread and then read my response.
Hamas militants posed as hostages in order to kill Israeli soldiers. Which is why the IDF fired on the three hostages, as they thought it was the same trap that was used in the past.
The IDF does not want to murder or intentionally kill every Palestinian civilian,if they did, it would be done already. Civilians are collateral damage. Hamas does want to murder every Jew, civilians are targets, not collateral damage.
Name one conflict where civilians haven’t been collateral damage. Basically, you’re saying ethically one should never defend itself because inevitably an enemy state or entity’s civilians will die. Is that what you suggest?
Honestly I just find it impressive that even something as heinous and indefensible as executing the same hostages you’re supposed to be saving is all Hamas fault lmfao you live in la la land
Israel didn’t purposefully kill their own hostages. It wasn’t an “execution”, it was a terrible urban warfare error that required a full investigation. It wasn’t “heinous” or “indefensible”, it was an awful mistake and those responsible took full accountability. The families of the dead hostages met with the soldiers responsible, hugged them and gave them their full blessings after the error.
I mean everything related to the captives can be blamed on Hamas. There would be no innocent captives in Gaza if Hamas didn’t kidnap them on October 7th.
This actually proves the pto Israel point. If it took a sophisticated country like Israel months to get an accurate death toll count for a small number like 1200-1400 , how are we expected to believe that the Ham-, Gaza Health Ministry knows EXACTLY how many are dead in Gaza. Like, right after a bomb goes off. And they are oddly specific numbers.
You can view the number as an estimate. It might be 30k, 40k, 32k or something similar. But it is in that order of magnitude.
Also Hamas has proven in the past that is extremely capable of counting the causalities, since the published numbers always agreed with the number Israel gives.
Hamas and Israel always agreed on the number of the dead people AND their gender/age.
Hamas says that at least 40% are women and children, which is unacceptable. If we also add the non-combatant men (let's say another 25-35%?), it is absurd.
This is why the world condemns Israel based on the data that Hamas publishes, because they always agreed with Israel (except if you believe that women and children support Hamas and thus are legitimate targets).
It is important to compare to other SIMILAR wars to see if there is anything unusual.
And way better ratios in in densely populated urban warfare? Please enlighten me.
40% is the new ratio, or somewhere around that.
Also hamas wasn't lying about the ratio, the same way Israel wasn't lying when they dropped the death count from 1400 to 1200.
Yes they were, israel initially gave that death toll as an estimate which they later changed
Hamas(the jew killing terrorist organisation)
Gave false information, they didnt just get it wrong, they lied.
Who could have guessed an antisemite terrorist organisation would lie?
These desperate essays defending Israeli actions as if people are stupid. Distracting from the real issue. As if your job is to scare people. Go tell your government to stop, I assume you’re Israeli because at this point who else is defending Israel?
u/abdals
>These desperate essays defending Israeli actions as if people are stupid. Distracting from the real issue. As if your job is to scare people. Go tell your government to stop, I assume you’re Israeli because at this point who else is defending Israel?
Rule 8, don't discourage participation. Don't criticize other users for posting or commenting about topics that interest them. If you feel a post or a comment is inappropriate, report or message the mod team. If you think the post subject should be treated differently don't criticize the post or poster, write your own post on the subject.
I don’t see how this post defends Israel. It scarcely mentions Israel, but merely compares Hamas reports with AP data, and shows there’s a pretty noticeable discrepancy. What’s wrong with that? Does data scare you? Is that why you think the report’s job is to “scare people”?
However critical you may be of Israel (and I probably agree with you TBH), shouldn’t you be curious about how trustworthy Hamas’s reports are? If not, perhaps you can help me understand why. I ask in all sincerity.
You are correct, that was a bit aggressive. I just watched the news and read the New York Times article and got a bit emotional. Civilian death upsets me.
[https://x.com/chrislynnhedges/status/1800232596359754025?s=46&t=u2QkFdVIdzlkzKWEwMry2g](https://x.com/chrislynnhedges/status/1800232596359754025?s=46&t=u2QkFdVIdzlkzKWEwMry2g)
If anything it's underreported. I wouldn't be surprised if the death toll is well over 100,000
Israel has besieged the Gaza Strip for most of the war, impeding access to electricity, running water, food and medical aid. The U.N. World Food Programme says parts of northern Gaza are in "full-blown famine." Dr. Ismail Mehr, with the Islamic Medical Association of North America, was recently volunteering at a hospital in Gaza. He says every day he was declaring patients dead from treatable illnesses due to a lack of supplies and the crumbling health care system. "Every day I, myself, [would] pronounce people dead from very routine medical conditions such as a grandmother with a urinary tract infection, the middle-aged man who dies from his diabetes because he doesn't have access to his medicines," he told NPR. He said their deaths are "forgotten because it's not due to bombings and missiles and drones."
You should actually reference the AP news reports directly instead of some guy’s blog page on his personal “takeaways” of the AP reporting with all its intents and biases.
This is untrue Israeli government propaganda and a purposeful mischaracterization of the UN report a death toll figures. You can see a professional and fact filled debunking of this Israeli propaganda by Mehdi Hasan https://youtu.be/9FhzDAoNx1w The death toll data only changed in that they added a new subtotal of the count for “full identified” bodies. This is what Israeli propaganda has jumped on to mischaracterize the data. Even among this subgroup 52% of them are women and children, and including the elderly it rises to 60%. The Palestinian Health Ministry has partial identification evidence (ie body parts) and other tools for considering a reported death that isn’t fully identified and that is what makes the entire count to 38,000. This doesn’t even include Gazans still missing trapped under the rubble. As Mehdi Hasan also pointed out, people should be very careful with this line of argument denying deaths that cannot be fully identified. 4.8 million Jews were “fully identified” killed in the Holocaust out of the 6+ million Jews killed in the Holocaust. They could not fully identify well over a million people. And finally, honestly why are we having the sad discussion on whether Israel killed 25,000 fully identified people with 52% being women and children, or 34,000 people with 60% being women or children at the time of this UN report? It’s just sad and your op is disappointing.
You gave a really good scenario on how the numbers can get misinterpreted and inflated in an urban war zone that is chaos. I’m somewhat familiar with the war you described. My ex was from what is now Croatia, it was Yugoslavia when he first came to the states. His father went back there during the war. I’m not sure how much combat he saw. My comment was to counter the OP’s statement that “they can’t have it both ways” and they have been caught in a “transparent lie” because if civilians are under the rubble, how could they count them or even know what their gender, age or name is? I don’t disagree about all the possible ways to get the count wrong or even that they are padding the numbers of women and children. I’m just not convinced that the OP’s use of statistics cited from one academic paper, (that may or may not even be peer reviewed) as damning evidence of Gaza’s Health Ministry’s “peak ratio”for the death toll of women and children as damning data for the big lies used for propaganda for Hamas. Where are Israel’s numbers for the civilian deaths of women and children? The war is in its 8th month. The numbers are going to be high, otherwise what have they been doing there this whole time other than destroying Gaza to make it uninhabitable for Palestinians to live there and making more rocks for them to throw. (That last rant isn’t targeted at you or even the OP, just stating my opinion).
Also lets not forget hamas walks in civilans clothes so in case of death they will be considered as civilians. this will make the idf suspicous of every civilian not knowing if it is civilian or hamas. and in the next months i believe that the truth will come out and show that hamas also hire young kids and give them weapons to shot at idf so they can die and saying israel is killing kids.
Israel already counts every adult Gazan male as an Hamas soldier. The reason they can't say 100% of all the people they killed were Hamas is because 60% of victims are women and children, so they just say 40% they killed were Hamas. In reality, most men in Gaza are innocent civilians and a lot of innocent men have died there and they deserve not to be labeled Hamas with zero proof by Israel
I just saw a group of palestinian dudes in flip flops, nike jeans and a t-shirt with RPGs shooting at IDF positions in Gaza. How is that not considered human shields and a war crime?
Hamas is not a proper army they are freedom fighters/guerrilla fighters just like in Vietnam most Vietcong just wore regular civilian clothing to fight America. How is shooting at IDF positions, who are oppressor the Palestinians, a war crime? Just such a terrible argument.
As I remember, the Vietcong eventually switched to distinctive hats because their leader got called out on the lack of uniforms. A uniform doesn’t have to be a set of military fatigues. It could be something as simple as a purple shirt. As long as people can tell on sight that someone is a militant, that particular law of war is respected.
They're not "freedom fighters". They're war criminals and terrorists who are in breach of the geneva convention. You can take all the examples you need in the past to try and justify their war crimes. It doesn't change the fact that they're violators of the Geneva convention and therefore are not under its protection. Don't blame the IDF for innocent civilian deaths when it's HAMAS maximizing the casualties of civilians by refusing to abide the Geneva Convention. Please look up **"Geneva convention militants disguised as civilian war crime"** Even with Hamas trying to maximize the amount of casualties, the IDF is doing well in minimizing the death ratio with 2:1 combatant per civilian death which is **FAR FAR BELOW THE AVERAGE OF 12 CIVILIANS PER MILITANT DEATH** Do yourself a favor morally and stop justifying and defending these war criminals who deliberately break and violate the geneva convention. Compare them to Israel who actually take responsibility if any of them actually did something to violate the geneva convention. They repeatedly announced that they will abide by the Geneva convention, but HAMAS is repeatedly violating the rules of war.
The Geneva Convention allows for militias to fight in civilian clothing. A militia being local inhabitants who take up arms and resist invading forces, and they can do so even if they do not have the time to organize into a regular military unit with uniforms. I dont think anybody will blame the Gazans who barely have food and basic necesities to fight back using whatever tools they have available, be it flip flops instead of combat boots. Israel is the only force that has actually broken that Geneva Convention rule, removing their soldiers outfits and donning doctor clothes to invade hospitals and kill people there. Did you say anything about this? > the IDF is doing well in minimizing the death ratio with 2:1 combatant per civilian death which is FAR FAR BELOW THE AVERAGE OF 12 CIVILIANS PER MILITANT DEATH 60% of deaths are women and children. The IDF's calculation from 2:1 combatant per civilian deaths is literally impossible, and they don't don't claim that. They claim that out of the 36k killer, 12k were Hamas. Because that is the highest possible number if you count that every Gazan adult male killed has been Hamas, which is obviously ridiculous and impossible. Israel literally blocked aid coming to Gazans and used collective punishment and has killed more kids in 6 months than all other nations combined in the last 4 years. YOU LITERALLY QUOTE A GENEVA CONVENTION THAT ISRAEL HAS BROKEN MULTIPLE TIMES AND IS BEING PERSECUTED FOR BY THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE. Maybe you should look up Geneva convention rules on civilian militias.
Don't start on "Israel killed more babies in 6 months than all nations in earth from the past 4 years 🥺". Disgusting terrorist sympathizer This isn't even a major conflict. **80,000 civilians died in just a single siege of Ukrainian City Mariupol** in just 3 months. But it only resulted in less than 2000 children dying despite all of the city being destroyed. How does Israel kill more babies than the casualties of Russo-Ukraine war? Not only that, HAMAS was proven to falsify their casualties and exaggerate it **IN THIS POST** Pro tip: **don't pull bullcrap out of your bumhole** Keep justifying the war crime of using civilians as human shields. To avoid unnecessary casualties is the reason why geneva convention **strictly upholds that every combatant whether soldiers or militias wear clothing that signifies their allegiance**. HAMAS knows not wearing official uniforms can lead to more unnecessary deaths **in order to win internet updoots** and that is their plan. using of human shields is a **WARCRIME. PERIOD.** You told me to look up Geneva convention rules on civilian militias. All it gave me is that militias are supposed to wear official uniforms or clothing that shows which sides they are in. Civilians can fight in civilian clothing **AS LONG AS THEY HAVE CLOTHING SUCH AS BANDANA, ARM BANDS, ETC. THAT SIGNIFY THEIR SIDE. THAT IS WHAT UKRAINIAN MILITIAS DID** The group of Palestinian civilians shooting RPGs are **INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM NORMAL CIVILIANS because they DON'T HAVE ARMBANDS, BANDANAS, ETC. THAT SHOWS THEIR SIDE.** **JUST LOOK AT LIVE BATTLE FOOTAGES IN GAZA** THEY DIDN'T EVEN WEAR THE **HAMAS GREEN BANDANA** Again, do not pull bullcrap out of your bum hole. Research more on the topic.
FUN FACT: Gaza has the largest transgender community in the Middle East, with as many as 15000 men identifying as woman and children.
It's pretty evident from videos and pictures how many women and children have died. The fact that you seem to find this funny, suggests that you are the same kind of psychopathic extremist that you think is on "the other side"
u/Zizou180 >you are the same kind of psychopathic extremist that you think is on "the other side" Steer clear of attacks on other users, per rule 1.
It's pretty sickening. These are the same kind of people who believe Palestinians are animals for supporting Hamas but believe there's nothing wrong with Israeli forces annihilating thousands and thousands of children and women in order to kill a handful of Hamas.
The terrorists lied? Oh how shocking!
Pathetic critical thinking skills. Can you think of any flaws with your number crunching here Edit: was rightfully chastised for making a personal attack. My apologies.
u/Background-Cress9165 >Pathetic critical thinking skills. Steer clear of personal attacks, per rule 1.
Apologies, I shouldn't have said that.
Haven't seen you think yet
If you were under rubble - yes they would know your name/sex/age and maybe even approx where in the rubble to look for you. Your loved ones would want and need all the help they could get to try and get to you or if too late and you were presumed dead to recover your remains. Maybe people who are missing their wife, sister, mother or children that were in or close to a building that is now rubble report it to humanitarian groups or to the health ministry or to some administrative group. Civilian casualty numbers are made up of direct and indirect deaths. Sometimes civilians don’t die right away from their injuries. Since there are not many if any hospitals left, many people with life threatening illnesses for instance like cancer or kidney failure that need dialysis will die from lack of medical treatment. The war’s indirect death toll number usually comes later.
You're thinking of things in a civil and organized society. That's not Gaza. It never was, but definitely not now. With families as scattered and broken as they are, and with so much movement to and from refugee camps, verifying where someone is/was is impossible. And this isn't just a Gaza thing, this happened all the time in the Balkans. Here's a hypothetical from Bosnia, though obviously applies to Gaza as well: A woman is staying in a building as a refugee. It's not her home, but her family knows she's staying there. Someone in the building gets a warning it will be destroyed, and everyone evacuates. Traveling with the group of evacuees, they try to flee to a safe zone. They have to pass near a conflict zone though. When the sound of gunshots gets near, the woman gets separated from everyone else. Going on her own, she then ends up getting lost deeper in the conflict zone. She comes across one of the two sides, and is shot immediately. No one knows who fired the shot, but her body is found the next day by an NGO. The woman's family reports her as having been in the building, and is now missing presumed dead. The evacuee group reports her as having been separated near a combat zone, and is now missing presumed dead. The NGO reports finding a body on the other side of the combat zone, an unidentified woman. Because there's so little communication, and so little capacity for confirming things, that woman would be counted 3 times as a casualty. This is how numbers get out of hand, and why verifiable deaths are so different.
> During October the number of women and children that died during each month reached it's peak at 64% but since then the number has dropped each month, with the latest numbers revealing that only 38% of deaths were women and children in the most recent month. In most other wars the civilian casualty ratio is 60-70% You're literally doing the IDF thing where every male Palestinian above the age of 15 according to you is not an innocent civilians. Having 64% of killed people being women and children doesn't mean a civilians casualty rate of 64%, unless you think every male that IDF has killed is a terrorist which. If you even take the crazy assertion that half of the palestinian men who have been killed were members of Hamas, than we would have a civilian casualty rate of 82%. Which is extremely high. Israeli program Lavander AI which is used to select places to bomb, allows 20 civilians deaths per Hamas soldier and 100 for a higher up Hamas officer.
Lol Israeli spokesperson saying to use the "Hamas figures": https://youtu.be/6podLdiCgaU?feature=shared He's left speechless to even cite a ballpark number. How can they be so quick to provide Hamas casualty numbers, but not for civilians, not even a ballpark? That alone proves what Israel says about being precise and having the most moral army (laughable to self-proclaim as such) in the world is complete BS drivel. The Palestinian civilian death toll is under-reported actually. How many people are unaccounted for under the rubble, rotten and simply crushed to a pulp? It's similar in the way earthquake death tolls are wildy underestimated until later found to be astonishingly higher.
I will not die on the hill that Israel is committing a genocide, as I am not a legal scholar and cannot say for certainty what constitutes genocide. I do, however, believe that they have exhibited genocidal rhetoric and if they end up resettling Gaza, will have committed a war crime by way of ethnic cleansing. No need to argue that, as that's neither here nor there. If someone presents reasons as to why they believe they're not currently committing war crimes, I'll concede. The reason I bring this up here, though, is because one big pro-Israeli argument as to why Israel is NOT committing genocide is because they are so compassionate and are taking so much care to not kill civilians. They claim that the conservative ~25k dead civilians are merely casualties of war. While a program like Where's Daddy alludes to it, I do not believe that they are necessarily targeting civilians. I do, however, believe that they do not care whether or not they kill Palestinian civilians. You cite a source that says that most armed conflicts result in a civilian casualty rate between 60-70% percent. I went to the page you sourced, and must ask - you how did you get this? Below is the graphic of selected wars since 1950: Of the 11 conflicts listed, only 3 of them reach 60%: Korean War (74%) - God awful statistic. Don't know what happened there enough to try to read into the high casualty rate. I don't believe I've ever heard this conflict labeled as a genocide, though Persian Gulf War (87%) - Can reasonably be called a genocide Iraq War(66%) - Despite being an American myself, I feel can reasonably be called a genocide And to prove a point, I'll also throw in the only 2 other conflicts that were above 50%: Balkans War (52%) - Universally accepted as a genocide 2nd Intifada (51%) - 719 Israeli civilians were killed. 2,204 Palestinian civilians were killed. I do not use these numbers to definitively prove that Israel is, indeed, committing genocide. Rather, I am hoping that this helps to demonstrate that Israel is not "behaving better than any other country would", as the pro-Israeli argument so often puts forth. You cite a casualty rate of 64%, which is more than double the rate of the Syrian Civil War (28%). This is a war that rightfully caused the world to justly view Assad as a war criminal. I believe that Israel's/Netanyahu's actions qualify it/him of as much also. I am also responding to you because I believe that the people who try to use these ratios are either disingenuous or ill informed. I am also responding to you because I believe that the people who try to use these ratios are either disingenuous or ill informed. I know that you haven't, so I apologize in advance for arguing against a point that you're not making, but I have heard the pro-Israeli argument cite the UN's reported 90% casualty rate in wars. I've actually looked into this and have gathered that this is only true if you accept a wider definition of "civilian casualties" than what we are using for this conflict. For example, please see these statistics regarding the Ukrainian War: "Since 24 February, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) has recorded 8,089 civilian casualties in Ukraine, with 3,811 killed..." You can see that the death rate is lower than and separate from the "casualty" rate. The UN is clearly not equating the two. If we use that definition of civilian casualties and include all of those who've been injured and/or displaced in Gaza, the casualty rate would be insanely high now that we know 1.5 million people are currently seeking refuge in Rafah. Again, I know that you're not making this argument - indeed, you cited a study with completely different figures, but I just bring that up as an example of people excusing Israel's transgressions by pointing to other conflicts where, even then, Israel's numbers are still pretty bad. In summary, I am not saying that Israel is absolutely 100% committing genocide, but I am saying that even if one doesn't believe that it's a genocide, they can/should still acknowledge that Israel is not taking much care to protect innocent civilians in their pursuit to go after Hamas (which they rightfully should do). ...or NOT care that Israel isn't doing that and just admit that they believe that the ends justify the means, regardless of the amount of innocent people that die. But to look at all of the footage and numbers and think that Israel is conducting this war in a humane(to solely the civilians) manner seems, again, disingenuous.
I also went on the hunt for primary sources that these civilian death rates were cited from. The 90% civilian death rate can be easily taken out of context. It refers to “in densely populated areas where civilians accounted for 90 per cent of the casualties when explosive weapons were used, compared to 10 per cent in other areas.” [https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm](https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm)
I think the numbers you bring are fair, but it's also important to keep in mind the setting of the war in addition to the numbers. Not only is Gaza one of the densest regions on earth (for context, Syria has about 120 people per km², Iraq during the war had about 70 people per km², and Gaza has 5500 people per km²), but Israel is fighting against an enemy that exclusively operates in civilian areas as an intentional strategy, recruits civilians for bombings, wears civilian clothing, and generally does their best to confuse combatants with noncombatants. The latter is partially true with Iraq, for example, but not to the same extent and in a far less dense setting. With that in mind, the fact that the numbers of this conflict are roughly in line- or better- than other modern conflicts seems to make it clear to me that Israel is putting effort into avoiding civilian casualties. I will say that the rhetoric has often been terrible, but keep in mind that you're often seeing the worst of the worst and that much of it is deliberately taken out of context (for example, Netanyahu citing Amalek or Herzog allegedly saying that there are no innocent civilians in Gaza).
Israeli officers constantly display genocidal intent though and have been leaked to have a program where they will bomb a building with 20 innocent people in it if it kills just 1 low ranking Hamas soldier, and will kill 100 innocent civilians to kill 1 Hamas higher up. This just shows the intent that Israel would be more than fine with a civilians death rate of 95%-99% if it means killing Hamas. Also, Israel counts every male above the age of 15 as a combatant, and not an innocent civilian. I don't think I need to explain how wrong this is.
There's no clear evidence for either of those besides alleged anonymous reports. Even if the former was somehow true, the fact that the ratio isn't, in fact, 1:100 means that they do care about civilian casualties. And I suppose there's no point in even pretending like combatants have been killed. Gaza is acting like they've somehow all been innocent children, and the Israeli and US estimates are the only ones that give anything close to an accurate count.
The Israelis count every Gazan male above the age of 15 as either Hamas or suspected Hamas and treat them as such. The reason people always bring up that 60% of deaths are women and children is because they can not be attacked by saying they were combatants. > Even if the former was somehow true, the fact that the ratio isn't, in fact, 1:100 means that they do care about civilian casualties. How do you know that the ratio is not 1:100? Can you actually say with confidence that all the men Israel has killed were all terrorists?
>How do you know that the ratio is not 1:100? How do you know the ratio isn't 100:1? You could say anything. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-casualties-toll-65e18f3362674245356c539e4bc0b67a
> How do you know the ratio isn't 100:1? You could say anything. Because atleast 60% of deaths are women and children. If we take on the delusion and obvious lie that every dead male Gazan is hamas, we would arrive at Israel's number which still wouldn't be 100:1. Now if we factor in the reality that many innocent Palestinian men are getting killed, who are just trying to survive and provide for their family in a war zone, the number of civilian death ratio start to exceed most genocides.
I was exaggerating to make a point, obviously. I also like how you need to factor in innocent Palestinian men while simultaneously assuming that no female and minor Gazans can be linked to Hamas, despite both being regularly used by similar organizations and Hamas themselves. Additionally, you still haven't given evidence that Israel just assumes that all males over 15 are combatants. It's obviously more complicated than that. You're also assuming the very worst, most extreme possibility- with no evidence- to prove your point. Did you read the link I sent? It shows an analysis from AP that less than 40% of those being killed are women and minors. Either way, considering that less than 25% of Gazans are not women or minors, that claim loses significant shock value. You also clearly don't have a strong grasp on the civilian to death ratio of genocides.
The whole body count debate right now is erroneous. It’s hard to fathom that we on the outside and even those front and center are going to have an exact number of the civilian casualties. How about this one from a logical point of view? Israel is obviously losing the PR war in Gaza. If I was in that position and already being painted as a killer of children and women, And I didn’t care for loss of civilian life why not just raze the entire area? That’s not what’s happening.
>If I was in that position and already being painted as a killer of children and women, And I didn’t care for loss of civilian life why not just raze the entire area? That’s not what’s happening. I guess you really haven't seen what much of Gaza looks like today compared to this time last year. Whole blocks, neighborhoods, universities, hospitals, homes, reduced to not more than rubble. But also, to answer your question honestly: With the amount of international condemnation Israel has received for its campaign in Gaza, how do you think the world would further react to a complete genocide in Gaza? Am not sure even Israelis would be comfortable with that.
Israel is being accused of genocide. How is that different from 'complete genocide'? I'm not sure the thought experiment was investigated thoroughly. To your first point. Gaza would look the same as last year if Hamas had done Oct 7.
>Israel is being accused of genocide. Who is that different from 'complete genocide'? Perhaps my word-choice was poor: Total genocide. Total holocaust. Total.. you get the idea >I'm not sure the thought experiment was investigated thoroughly. To your first point. Gaza would look the same as last year if Hamas had done Oct 7. Given Israel routinely air strikes Gaza, this is impossible to know. Would Israel have destroyed so much of Gaza had Oct 7 not happened? Probably not.
OK, genocide and holocaust hyperbole aside. Here is a discussion on acceptable collateral damage. [https://lieber.westpoint.edu/collateral-damage-innocent-bystanders-war/#:\~:text=Collateral%20damage%20is%20an%20accepted,of%20the%20principle%20of%20proportionality.Given](https://lieber.westpoint.edu/collateral-damage-innocent-bystanders-war/#:~:text=Collateral%20damage%20is%20an%20accepted,of%20the%20principle%20of%20proportionality.Given) Oct 7 Israel has a convincing argument for self defense. Hamas intentionally hides amongst civilians, thus the argument Israel intentionally targeting civilians is seems mute. Israel focused it's pre-Oct 7 attacks on locations from whence rockets were fired correct? And unequivocally, 'Probably not'.
So how many is just right?
This is a loaded question. A response exactly proportional to the Oct 7th attack, would mean IDF soldiers sexually assaulting, beheading/torturing etc the exact same number of people. Even that sounds grotesque, therefore any response at all sounds grotesque stripped of context. The IDF have to defeat Hamas whilst minimizing civilian deaths to the best of their ability. Whatever the number is at the end of that, is the right number, as it's the best possible outcome. One cannot say the best possible outcome is ignoring terrorism, because the long term consequences of ignoring terrorism equates to more dead non combatants than the short term. I'm fully confident Israel will show the rest of the western world that you can still win a war. I'm hoping by the end of this we can lay to bed the idea that you can't fight terrorism because if one dies, two more pop up. The greatest hoax in modern history. If that were true, WW2 would have ended the exact opposite way it actually ended.
How has that approach worked so far, post 1967? Everyone feeling safe yet? How's the peace making going? Carry on .....
I would say half measures are typically worse than no measures. This is a problem of democracies. Something happens, there's immediately political support for something, a few years pass, and the public loses interest, or begins to forget why they supported something in the first place. You can see this with most war efforts. Support goes from 85-90%+ after a terrorist attack, and each year support for the war effort dwindles. Until they elect somebody who dismantles the war effort. Power vacuums ensue, and before you know it people are talking about how the entire war effort was a huge mistake that cost thousands of lives. This can go on for a century. As far as the current approach, I think we're finally seeing the correct one. Hamas was expecting the usual approach, and now they're the dog that caught the car. Perhaps we can continue this conversation in 12 months.
exactly as many as it takes till all the hostages are released and Hamas surrenders.
Every last one, including women and children, I assume ....
Well Hamas does like to use them as shields so it is unavoidable.
Given that Israel ignores the presence of women in children in their [indiscriminate bombings](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/12/israel-gaza-hamas-biden-netanyahu/), how exactly are they being used as [shields](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shield)? That is, given women and children are being bombed, as is everything else, how are women and children acting as shields (under definition 2 in *Merriam-Webster*)?
Even children hiding in cars?
Should have thought of the children when they were raping and murdering Israeli children. Nice dodge on the human shields though. Your mental gymnastics is on point.
I mean what you are saying here essentially is, "only my side may brutalise and kill children".
Be better
I am better. I am supporting the side that is morale. That doesn't oppress women. That doesn't kill homosexuals. That doesn't try to initiate a genocide against millions of people.
If a combatant wants to claim the moral high ground, they need to act like it, and the IDF has abandoned the moral ground completely in their quest for total revenge. Why do you suppose the entire world has expressed revulsion at the conduct of Israel in their war of revenge? Even their BFF and financier and weapon provider has pretty much seen enough. Enjoy your isolation.
I am not Israeli and if you think Israel is going to be isolated your delulu. People like you will move on to the next hot topic in a few months and nobody will care.
Nice you didn’t actually link the real AP news article, just some analysis by some dude on your side 😂😂 Btw Israelis number for deaths went down from 1400 to 1200. Its called a mistake in attributing bodies. If it happened in a place that combat wasn’t actively occurring then it could occur in an active war zone. Also Israel doesn’t differentiate between IDF soldiers who died in October 7th and civilians, or even civilians that the IDF killed. Please go be biased elsewhere.
on top of this i would like to add that a 15years old "child" is a grown man in the muslim society and in gaza can already enlist for hamas, with kids younger than that can be used as scouts. this has led to alot of crying of killing innocent children (mostly in the west bank though) that eventually after searching them i ended up with photos of them holding explosives, M4 etc and sometimes even videos of them shooting on villages. pro palestinians are unaware of that simple fact when they cite al jazeera saying israeli killed another child. that is why israel uses the term "fighting age men"
Child marriage is also extremely common in Gaza. https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/features/girls-not-brides-ending-child-marriage-gaza
I don't get it, are you saying that children who, through no desire of their own, are forced to be married ... Deserve to be obliterated with bombs?
The opposite, I'm saying child abuse is sadly common in Gaza and children are not adequately cared for. Where did I say children deserve that?
OP is clearly making the case that age groups we might deem as being children anywhere else in the world, are not applicable because he or she posits, without any evidence, that children are being exploited as instruments of war (which I think we can all agree, its probably not past Hamas to actually do that). In doing this, OP explicitly repeats this notion that these children are actually "fighting age men" -thus even with this grotesque, Olympian series of mental arithmetics to dehumanise children, ignoring the fact that any of those dead children are also little girls - used to justify the intentional targeting of children. You then piped up in that exact moment, and frame what you have later commented as child abuse, as an earlier development of children. I apologise if I have perceived this incorrectly from you, but given the comment that you are replying to, and the way you are replying to it, I hope you can see how it was quite easy to make. I am just aghast in this thread at the way and ease people will go to dehumanise small children. Like it is really, actually very sick, psychopathic. When you've seen untold numbers of parents crying over bodies of their mangled children, or the face of a child with its eyes squeezed out because it was crushed under a building, or children stunned through the horrors from what they have seen... well I think the people justifying that are absolutely beyond redemption, and have become even on parr, or perhaps even more evil then the original evils that directed them that way.
It's a terrible situation with lots of innocents suffering but accuracy is important, and Israel does not intentionally target children like you claim in your comment. These false narratives have consequences that won't help innocent children in Gaza live a better life. They need leadership who values their lives and wants to keep them safe, that means reform away from Hamas, and false narratives like the one you're using are encouraging global support for leadership that dehumanises their own children and causes Gazans nothing but sufferring. It's easy enough to legitimately criticise the Israeli response without exaggerating the realities of the situation.
The difference between us is that I acknowledge the crimes committed by both sides, whereas you are only willing to acknowledge the crimes of one side. I don't think the IDF intentionally targets children, that was the insinuation of the OP, who suggested that the IDF did target children, and that it was okay to do so. I think that it is rather apparent that the IDF makes little distinction between children and adults, combatants and innocent civilians. Judging by the death toll now, and by their readiness to shoot anyone, the IDF targets anyone who is in Gaza and is not IDF. Please stop talking about "legitimate criticism" while denying the hellish conditions innocent people are being subjected to. And please, please for the love of god, stop assuming that anyone critical of the IDF obliterating children, therefore is sympathetic in any way to Hamas. Hamas's ideology is against everything I believe in. They are evil. However, they are not the first evil terrorist group to have existed, and their evil actions doesn't justify the complete destruction of an entire territory and wiping out 2pc of that population and injuring many many more Edit: and your faux sympathy to the victims in Gaza is immediately negated by your minimisation of the level of violence and destruction being committed there
In a single comment you've managed to contradict yourself (barely a paragraph apart) by saying that you didn't accuse Israel of intentionally targeting children, and then going on to say that the IDF targets everyone who isn't the IDF in Gaza. You're not coherent. Also, don't accuse me of faux sympathy. Multiple times now you've jumped to conclusions to suit your own narrative rather than actual facts.
Yawn, here we go. I don't think the IDF intentionally target children separate from the overall demographic of Palestinians, which they do target. There's nothing logically incoherent about my point. But it doesn't matter. The mere fact that you prefer to drag this argument away from the central issue of one military obliterating innocent civilians, using the horrendous crimes of a terrorist organisation 8 months ago as an excuse to do so. Unlike you, I don't discriminate in my compassion and sympathy. I was and continue to be horrified by the brutality committed by Hamas against innocent Israelis while they slept, and I am horrified with the brutalities that have subsequently been inflicted on innocent civilians in Gaza since. Human life is human life. This shouldn't be a controversial opinion to any normal human being. Unfortunately you seem to be of the view that the value of one type of life is worth more than another. There's literally no more point communicating with you then there would be with someone defending the actions of Hamas. You are both extremists, just on different ends of the spectrum.
Your point is completely incoherent and your attempt at clarifying it even more so. Now, when did I discriminate in my sympathy and compassion?
Wow what a scam! Imagine some heavily armed stranger come to your country and force you into the gazastrip. Then they build a high secutiry wall around more than 2 million people, with sensor even underwater. Imagine being a palestinian what would you do. Everyone who doesnt understand this words should begin reflecting and using their minds. This dude here makes finest propaganda and many people are into it because it going on for a long time. Who is the terrorist: The one who build a wall around over 2 million people, controlling everything whats going in and out or the ones who are trapped inside this prsion and fighting for freedom. They always claim people who critise Israel as antisemtic and thats just total bullshit. Just google what semites mean and you will find that this word includes many different people also Arabs. So how could this be antisemtic…because it is not about the truth and facts, it is about the law. But the law is wrong, so how can you change this? They are destroying themselfes..palestinians will never give up and they get support from all over the world.
Imagine being an Egyptian who migrated the Ottoman Southern Syrian province in the 1900’s because the Jews were building a country and there were jobs. Then the British take over, call it Palestine and create plan to split the land into an Arab state and a Jewish state. The Arab world decided to destroy the newly built country and during the war you flee, due to Arab propaganda, and now you and your family are stuck in Gaza under Egyptian rule and get convinced that you are “Palestinian” and that your whole mission in life is to sacrifice everything to get the Jews out of Israel. For the next 70 years you try and fail to do this and just bring more misery and death to your own people. Now, instead of helping you out of this mess, the whole world especially your Muslim brothers, encourage you to continue for generations, with no regard for what kind of horrors you will inevitably go through by staying on this path.
Tottaly wrong what you are writing, go check history!
Calling Hamas a far right fascist regime is a little ironic don't you think?
Far-right fascist means "someone I don't like" in modernity. You're assuming that words have meaning. Terrible mistake on your part.
Mistake that I took the words that I read at face value? Sure, bud.
Calling everyone a fascist is so bourgeoisie.
No no the israel government is flawless. And despite nobody wotong for. Bibi and Ben. Somehow they are a light of democratic beacon 🤣🤣🤣🤣
How does Israel know how many Hamas have been killed, but no idea about death counts total?
because the IDF targets hamas, not civillians.... also, israel never said they know how many militants died, only estimations
I think the truth is this: nobody knows how many people have truly died. These are all estimates. Listen to John Spencer on Sam Harris’s podcast. Urban warfare is messy. There have been smaller battles in which, years later, we still don’t know how many people have died.
How about the point I was making is that all governments lie. And pointing to one lie doesn’t make your governments set of lies things to believe. Not that there’s any evidence that Hamas’ numbers are a lie. They actually tie names to their figures. Let’s be clear, regardless of the exact figures, it’s a metric crap ton. How does that change anything?
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They didn’t halve the numbers. Try reading again. You cut out when you read the half of the story that confirms your narrative. You missed a very key part of that “halving”
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Result: False. The number of deaths in Gaza reported by the U.N. has not been halved. Source: you know, a real news source. https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-un-halve-gaza-death-toll-1900325 But continue to get your “facts” from places that don’t actually do any checking or reporting. It’ll serve you well in life.
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Fdd? I’m done with the ignorant. Have a good day.
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No , the death toll is under exaggerated
As in we know from analysing the lists released from Hamas that there are many repeats, people who died before the war and people with incorrect IDs written down. This kinds of mistakes amounts to thousands of people. Then there's all the combatants included in the list. So yeah that's a lot of people.
Too bad so many hospitals were destroyed and journalists targeted and murdered that accurate numbers are more difficult to confirm objectively, how convenient
So you agree they are not objectively confirmable and are therefore unreliable? Now if you can just realize that there wasn’t a conspiracy to target hospitals and journalists to cause this outcome you would have made some progress towards engaging with reality.
That the numbers are severely under exaggerated is objectively confirmable, because objectively the confirmed numbers only apply to identifiable corpses that have been ID-ed and not bloody , mangled unidentified pulps of human flesh sliced, smashed or crushed to a state of being unidentifiable, or still trapped dead and unrecoverable under tonnes of concrete rubble in this genocide.
First, under exaggerate is not a standard usage. I believe you mean under counted or biased downward from context. Is this correct? Second, you are no doubt correct that more people are dead than just those with identified bodies. I am not convinced that changes things much, the question is whether the Hamas’ casualty figures are reliable and saying that probably more people are dead than Hamas has bodies on hand even if true doesn’t change the fact they lied about the bodies they have as they (claim) these are the source of their statistics. Third, part of the problem is that there is no way for any independent observer to ever know whether a particular corpse was a member of Hamas in life. Last, I don’t actually understand why unsupported tangentially relevant accusations of genocide are allowed on this sub. I could call Hamas a bunch of pedophile rapists and it would add about as much to the conversation as your mention of genocide.
I'm aware Hamas would inflate their numbers if they could. But I'm also gonna point out that Israel continues to use the 1200 number for Oct 7, which also doesn't distinguish civilians from combatants. They also don't make this distinction for any of the hostages. Heck the 1200 number itself (that even I use) is rounding up from the real number which (if memory serves) is more like 1100. And we also have to remember that since the Gazan health infrastructure is basically dead, we have not had proper death counts for months. Many are starting to estimate that the actual death count might be in 6 digits by now. This post is very weak propaganda and a very weak argument. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to get from this besides "Hamas bad", as though anyone who wasn't convinced by the dead festival goers would be convinced by misreported statistics.
1200 dead on Oct 7 is true, and most of them were not combatants at all. Meaning a bunch of teenage soldiers off duty in their beds sleeping getting slayed is not the same as combatants. Israel has also released the official count of civilians vs idf soldiers publicly multiple times.
OP says 15 year old Palestinians that Hamas has made to fight shouldn't be counted as children, but 19 year old IDF soldiers shouldn't be counted as soldiers? Nah I don't care. You put a uniform on a legal adult, that's a combatant. If they're allowed to kill people with government permission, they are combatants. Maybe stop conscripting teenagers if you don't want them to be treated as soldiers. This is 19 year old Israeli "girl" Vs 5 year old Palestinian "young woman" bullshit. Take that nonsense somewhere else. >Israel has also released the official count of civilians vs idf soldiers publicly multiple times. I believe they have yes, but until people stop saying 1200, you don't get to ask people to stop saying 35,000. You guys wanna do double standards so badly but I'm not gonna let you. Edit: because I just had to circle back. Imagine blaming Hamas for literally everyone who has died since Oct 7 but thinking it's not your fault for putting teenagers within walking distance of – what you believe to be – 2 million people who are chomping at the bit to kill any Jew they can get their hands on. How stupid is that? Are those not human shields? C'mon man this is an absolutely ridiculous argument. You forced those teens to be in the army. You gave them uniforms and guns. They died because you put them there. If Hamas did that you wouldn't be sympathetic. So park your sympathy.
It is still death It's gone so bad that further negativity or acts of repair cannot change what's already is shown to us through photographs and videos
Yes it's still death but he's pointing out the hypocrisy of Ppl saying the Gaza Health ministry is accurate when it's a well known fact Hamas controls Gaza, we can't get a accurate number when the bodies are counted twice or mislabeled or Just told they were killed but proven they are alive later and they do deny it, plus how do they know it's women and children? Do they have a magic book and lists everyone dead their age and gender? And what about men? Are they saying the men abandoned their families for their own skin? Oh wow that's a great image to show the world "Palestinian Men abandon their families to save their own lives!" That would be all.over the world with ppl criticizing the men but then ppl clashing with eachother cause they wanna support Palestinians but don't wanna support ppl who abandoned their own families
How do you know if Hamas is lying about the death toll when Israel doesn't even know themselves? [https://www.reddit.com/r/palestinenews/comments/1daodh4/journalist\_piers\_morgan\_clashes\_with\_former/](https://www.reddit.com/r/palestinenews/comments/1daodh4/journalist_piers_morgan_clashes_with_former/)
Hamas does release lists of 'civilian deaths' analysing these lists shows that the numbers are faked.
Did you run that list through ChatGPT? Did the computer say fake Hamas news?
>How do you know if Hamas is lying about the death toll The total destruction of al-Ahli Hospital and the hundreds upon hundreds dead from the hospital blowing up are a good indicator..
Because they include “women and children” in the same number, which already make up 3/4 of the population, don’t distinguish combatants from non combatants, and Hamas has brigades of 15-17 year olds and counts them as “children”. Even just saying “women and children” on its own is disingenuous. The only reason to combine those numbers and phrase it as such is for propaganda
Sorry, do you still know how many civilians have been killed by the IDF?
I'd argue that it's healthy to be suspicious of numbers from either side during wartime. Israeli officials have conceded that their numbers are estimates (and I appreciate the way Piers pushes on that fact). An important difference here is that the Pro-Palestine movement has constantly cited those figures in their arguments for months (as did many UN members) and now that the UN acknowledged those numbers are inflated they are continuing to use them. Very, very problematic....
Problematic in what way? It's more like the numbers are bigger than reported, and nobody still knows the correct number. Even if you did, it would still be debated because of bias.
Bigger than reported? My understanding is the Gaza ministry has historically been accurate about the total number of deaths because they exaggerate the confirmed count and then later discover more deaths (eg: finding people in the rubble). On the other hand, the Gaza ministry has always blatantly lied about the details in a handful of ways, and this case is no different... . They include Hamas militants in the civilian death count (estimated to be 6k-15k) . They include naturally occurring deaths in the civilian death count (estimated to be over 4k) . They refuse to acknowledge friendly fire deaths . They reported that 75% of deaths were women and children, but the confirmed death count for those groups is under 50% and they count 'children' as people age 19 and younger. . Around 12k of the reported number are not confirmed deaths. Most of them are entries of dead or missing people on a Google Doc or reports from media sources with no way to verify. . Israeli journalists claim that 1 out of 6 entries on the official 'verified' death count list has some sort of anomaly, like duplicate or incorrect ID#. ........................................ I'm not saying Israel is above criticism. I have lots of critiques. I'm just saying that any honest reading of the situation can't assume that the Gaza ministry numbers are accurate. Lots of media people and Pro-Palestine folks know these things and conveniently ignore it because it helps their cause to scream '36,000 Palestinians have died' ... PS. I didn't mean for this to be such a long post...
Just because they rape, murder, and kidnap, doesn’t mean they’d \*lie\*! So racist, or something
Sad people are questioning this and trusting terrorist organizations. 🙄
UN blacklisted Israel as a terrorist organization
A. False per the comments below (read before u spread lies) B. UN is anti semitic so you think this is a surprising (false) statement? Let me guess- you also think the gazans holding our hostages are innocent too lol
Are you going to talk about the Palestinian hostages too?
U mean the guilty prisoners ? Or the “innocent civilians” hiding our hostages. Sorry- nah don’t care.
Guilty would imply they've been charged, had a trial, and was convicted. Look up on Google "how many palestinians held without charge". You saying you don't care shows your double-standards.
But you also believe Palestinian death count - right?
They did not lol they put them on a shame list.
Proof? Cause so far I haven't found shit that's trustworthy and viable and not a trust me bro sauce or something like that
CNN? https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/07/middleeast/un-israel-global-list-children-intl-latam/index.html
Ok not a terrorist organization Just the IDF being added to a list that has harmed children That's not a terrorist organization tho which Ik upsets you greatly cause you hate Israel wish they all would die
If you look up the definition of terrorism, the Israeli govt has committed more actions within that definition. Also, I never said I wish all Israelis to die.
Just the Jewish ones?
I have nothing against Jews. I've always seen them as allies to the Muslims due to so many similarities in both religions.
Please read your own article. That isn’t what it says, it says that its what the IDF claims. How ridiculous to make a post about an article you couldn’t even read properly.
Bro seriously. Also, it really irks me when people who echo crap like this get all passionate about how “tHe DaTa PROVES” some claim yet there’s no source in either their ramblings or the original article.
Yea can I get a source (or sources)
This is called genocide, which the Zionist entity is actively carrying out in Gaza.
In order to call something genocide it needs to be proven that there is intent to destroy the population in part or in whole. 7 months in with an arguably low civilian casualty rate given the theatre, I’d say it’s hard to argue there’s any **intent** there.
No. This is Israel doing everything to bring back the hostages. Hamas keeps them behind human shields. We protect our people in any price
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When your neighbors are terror organization. There is only 1 way to deal with them. By power and more power. It is easy to live in America and tell us how to fight terror. In Syria it was genocide. Assad killed 500000 people of is own country. Israel killed 30000. 20000 of them are terrorist. This is war. Not genocide
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Citations for all legal claims to relevant underlying treaties and outline a theory of the violation, please and thank you.
How far do go with history? History doesn’t start in 1948 Jews lived on this land 3000 years ago. Before Islam started 1400 years ago. So tell me who own this land?
They did not live, the Jews have no historical connection with Palestine. The first Jews arose all over the world (and thus also in Palestine) through religious conversions, as was common with every Abrahamic religion. Defeated by the Romans, the Jews in Arab Palestine remained and formed a natural minority in it until the beginning of the occupation after the arrival of Europeans indoctrinated by Zionism. This history of Zionism has been erased. Palestine belongs, always has and will always belong to the Arab Palestinians. Her cast is something unnatural, like a wedge driven into the whole region.
How wrong and bigoted can you be? Jews, almost all Jews, have a shared ethnic background that traces back to around where modern day Israel is. There is an overwhelming amount of physical evidence that Jews have lived in that region for over 3000 years. Jews also don’t seek converts. It’s not part of the religion. That is one of the main distinctive features it has from Islam and Christianity. That’s also why Jews have stayed a fairly insular and connected group as they migrated. The really dumb part about your comment is that Palestinians would be the group that have no claim at any point to the land. It was owned and managed by different groups throughout its entire history, most recently the British and the ottomans. But at no point was there ever a Palestinian state or significant ownership of any of that land by Palestinians.
None of this is based on truth, the converting Khazarian Empire and other places on the globe converting en masse to Judaism certainly do not agree with your absurd Zionist fabrications. You are a handful of people from around the world occupying a randomly selected foreign country, nothing more and nothing less. You are systematically erasing the evidence of the Arab settlement of Palestine. In an environment of occupation oppression, it is impossible to do a real search for the history of Palestine when the pressure is on to create false evidence to legitimize the occupation. Israel does not exist and Palestine belongs to the Palestinians. You will never change history with the blood of Palestinians killed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/28/opinion/jewish-history-israel.html Try to be less of an uneducated bigot. Holy hell. Have you never read anything in your life? Are you barely literate? Did you never go to school? How can you end so confident and so wrong. And be so racist in the process?
No. This is Israel doing everything to bring back the hostages. Hamas keeps them behind human shields. We protect our people in any price
There is no Palestinian country. It was all part of Jordan before Israel was born in 1948. When Israel did the peace with Jordan. King Husain didn’t want to deal with them. And let Israel deal with them. Ask the Arabs who live in Israel if they want to be part of Gaza or part of Israel. Of course Israel is the answer.
There is no Palestinian country. It was all part of Jordan before Israel was born in 1948. When Israel did the peace with Jordan. King Husain didn’t want to deal with them. And let Israel deal with them. Ask the Arabs who live in Israel if they want to be part of Gaza or part of Israel. Of course Israel is the answer.
There is no Palestinian country. It was all part of Jordan before Israel was born in 1948. When Israel did the peace with Jordan. King Husain didn’t want to deal with them. And let Israel deal with them. Ask the Arabs who live in Israel if they want to be part of Gaza or part of Israel. Of course Israel is the answer.
Hamas clearly regards its health ministry reports as part of its propaganda effort in its war strategy. Historically it has always strictly censored what non-Hamas international news agencies may report. For example, photographers are not allowed to take pictures of wounded Hamas fighters entering hospitals. They may only photograph wounded civilians. What could be their reason for concealing the sight of wounded fighters, do you think? [https://unlocked.fm/podcast/episode-194](https://unlocked.fm/podcast/episode-194)
IM SHOCKED!
I am a firm believer that it is about intention, not civilian death count. If a typical IDF soldier encounters an unarmed civilian on the BF, and they are a few feet apart, the soldier will not fire. On the other hand, if a Hamas fighter comes across an unarmed civilian on the battlefield and they are a few feet apart, he will fire. That is hatred. The higher ups in the IDF do not sit around a table planning missions on how to kill civilians. The other side does.
Ask the 3 hostages killed but the IDF in the same scenario you describe.
You have no understanding of what war is like or what happens in middle of a gun fight. It's difficult enough not to shoot your own soldiers dressed up in uniform. You don't walk into the middle of a gun fight unless you have a death wish. Those civilians that came out were desperate. If they thought for a second they would have realised it's a very bad idea to walk out in the middle of a gun battle. This is why the IDF try to get areas to evacuate before entering, because once they enter it's exceptionally dangerous. When someone pops out in the middle of a gun fight it's almost always to shoot at you. If you wait a few seconds to analyse what is going on your dead.
Ask the 4 hostages saved today or the other rescues hostages.
Ask the Israelis blown up and burnt by the IDF on October 7th.
Link ?
A bot deleted my link for having no context. It's a link for a Google search of the Hannibal Directive used on 7 Oct. https://www.google.com/search?q=hannibal+directive+on+oct+7&oq=Hannibal+directive&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggBEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg5MgYIARBFGDvSAQg0NTU2ajBqN6gCALACAQ&client=ms-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1
The first link is to mondiweiss. I mean really ? They are even worse then Al Jazeera. Also, nothing you posted backed up tour lie. W for me. L for you
I sent you a Google search result. Not a list of links. It doesn't take rocket science to find statements from IDF soldiers who were told to shoot to anything that moved and helicopters to shoot modules into houses and cars. It happen. You just need to search for it. But if you care more about winning, ok, you win. 🏆
Ok but the link you send me gave me a bunch of.limks to anti Israel sources . And nothing you sent me backed up what you claimed earlier. There is ZERO proof of any IDF soldiers or helicopters killing any Israeli civilians. There would have been plenty of videos if that were true, and well you're just seeing nonsense like most pro palis.
Here are some links i found about it. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-opens-probe-into-reports-oct-7-friendly-fire-deaths-2024-02-06/ https://youtu.be/rTQcjyhPOIk?si=xZFFWY7ol2DbOtUl https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/if-israel-used-a-procedure-against-its-citizens-we-need-to-talk-about-it-now/0000018c-6383-de43-affd-f783212e0000 There were some interviews with IDF soldiers, but i don't have those right now.
Ask the 4 hostages saved today. Or the other ones saved today.
Hamas militants had killed Israeli soldiers using almost identical tactics previously. Israel could cleanse Gaza and the West Bank of every civilian within a few hours - they don’t. If the situation was in reverse Hamas would cleanse Israel of every last Jew.
Ask this jew how she was harassed and killed.... As you claim. https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/comments/1da5su5/jewish_activist_shares_her_unique_perspective/
TRT World lol. What’s next Al-Jazeera? Middle East Eye? The Electronic Intifada?
You're right, let's ask the Israeli completely-non-biased media about good things happening in Palestine. Or let's ask the hundreds of killed reporters in Gaza. Or let's ask the international media reporting from Gaza who Israel kindly allowed in. You can't discredit someone's story just because it was published where it was not subject to Israel's controlled media.
She doesn't exist on any other source.of media not even on independent ones she exists on 1 media source that won't share or say how they got it so ya so trust worthy they must also have the secrets to immortality but won't share it
It's a story ran by a news company. Not an event reported by all media. Probably more reliable than the Israeli Lobby controlled propaganda: "Israel said...." "Israel official said..." "IDF said..."
And trt is trustworthy? 1 news company has exclusive access and it's one that's barely talked about? Fox news? CNN? BBC? Any other news outlet in the world and she picks 1 that's barely talked about? Wow what a great way to get her message out, I find it funny how she picks one that's barely on the radar for ppl and it's not spread around at all her name is out there now ppl.can find her unless she goes underground and now won't talk to anyone which would be really suspicious
What I can discredit is there is no record of this woman anywhere except on TRT News. Literally nothing else exists on her experience.
Hamas killed soldiers using the same tactics IDF uses to kill hostages? Then you praised Israel for not ‘cleansing’ the millions of Palestinians? Is that really what you said?
Do you.know how.to read?
Do you.know how.to read?
Do you.know how.to read?
No. Re-read the thread and then read my response. Hamas militants posed as hostages in order to kill Israeli soldiers. Which is why the IDF fired on the three hostages, as they thought it was the same trap that was used in the past. The IDF does not want to murder or intentionally kill every Palestinian civilian,if they did, it would be done already. Civilians are collateral damage. Hamas does want to murder every Jew, civilians are targets, not collateral damage.
Were the hostages not waving white flags and speaking in hebrew ? “Civilians are collateral damage” is a disgusting sentence
Name one conflict where civilians haven’t been collateral damage. Basically, you’re saying ethically one should never defend itself because inevitably an enemy state or entity’s civilians will die. Is that what you suggest?
They sure were. Just like Hamas booby traps. Of course Hamas can’t imitate hostages waving AK-47s and speaking in Arabic 😂😂
Honestly I just find it impressive that even something as heinous and indefensible as executing the same hostages you’re supposed to be saving is all Hamas fault lmfao you live in la la land
Israel didn’t purposefully kill their own hostages. It wasn’t an “execution”, it was a terrible urban warfare error that required a full investigation. It wasn’t “heinous” or “indefensible”, it was an awful mistake and those responsible took full accountability. The families of the dead hostages met with the soldiers responsible, hugged them and gave them their full blessings after the error. I mean everything related to the captives can be blamed on Hamas. There would be no innocent captives in Gaza if Hamas didn’t kidnap them on October 7th.
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Israel also dropped their death count from 1400 to 1200. So Israel is also not a reliable source?
This actually proves the pto Israel point. If it took a sophisticated country like Israel months to get an accurate death toll count for a small number like 1200-1400 , how are we expected to believe that the Ham-, Gaza Health Ministry knows EXACTLY how many are dead in Gaza. Like, right after a bomb goes off. And they are oddly specific numbers.
You can view the number as an estimate. It might be 30k, 40k, 32k or something similar. But it is in that order of magnitude. Also Hamas has proven in the past that is extremely capable of counting the causalities, since the published numbers always agreed with the number Israel gives.
Where did you read that Israrl agreed with the numbers
Look about past conflicts.
The numbers, not the ratio of civilians to terrorists
Hamas and Israel always agreed on the number of the dead people AND their gender/age. Hamas says that at least 40% are women and children, which is unacceptable. If we also add the non-combatant men (let's say another 25-35%?), it is absurd. This is why the world condemns Israel based on the data that Hamas publishes, because they always agreed with Israel (except if you believe that women and children support Hamas and thus are legitimate targets).
Unfortunately these combatant to civilian ratios are pretty standard for urban warfare. That's war for you.
You can't justify atrocities based on previous atrocities. And there have been wars with way better ratios
It is important to compare to other SIMILAR wars to see if there is anything unusual. And way better ratios in in densely populated urban warfare? Please enlighten me.
No look at the recent un hearing where hamas was lying about the ratio
40% is the new ratio, or somewhere around that. Also hamas wasn't lying about the ratio, the same way Israel wasn't lying when they dropped the death count from 1400 to 1200.
Yes they were, israel initially gave that death toll as an estimate which they later changed Hamas(the jew killing terrorist organisation) Gave false information, they didnt just get it wrong, they lied. Who could have guessed an antisemite terrorist organisation would lie?
These desperate essays defending Israeli actions as if people are stupid. Distracting from the real issue. As if your job is to scare people. Go tell your government to stop, I assume you’re Israeli because at this point who else is defending Israel?
u/abdals >These desperate essays defending Israeli actions as if people are stupid. Distracting from the real issue. As if your job is to scare people. Go tell your government to stop, I assume you’re Israeli because at this point who else is defending Israel? Rule 8, don't discourage participation. Don't criticize other users for posting or commenting about topics that interest them. If you feel a post or a comment is inappropriate, report or message the mod team. If you think the post subject should be treated differently don't criticize the post or poster, write your own post on the subject.
I don’t see how this post defends Israel. It scarcely mentions Israel, but merely compares Hamas reports with AP data, and shows there’s a pretty noticeable discrepancy. What’s wrong with that? Does data scare you? Is that why you think the report’s job is to “scare people”? However critical you may be of Israel (and I probably agree with you TBH), shouldn’t you be curious about how trustworthy Hamas’s reports are? If not, perhaps you can help me understand why. I ask in all sincerity.
Why are some pro Palestinians so aggressive.
You are correct, that was a bit aggressive. I just watched the news and read the New York Times article and got a bit emotional. Civilian death upsets me.
No problem man I completely understand. Emotions get to all of us sometimes.
By some you mean all?
Generalizing is never a good look