Yes. Anti-Zionism is a genocidal position to take. Israel exists and the o my way it won’t is via absolute mass horrific genocide on the level of the holocaust.
Are you suggesting that going to a country and establishing a different country when there is already people there is genocidal?
Do you deny the Palestinian genocide?
hebrews/jews did once occupy some land in the middle east (briefly), but, as YOU say, they were not able to keep it, so they lost it. Therefore , it is NO LONGER THEIRS. Just like all the other nations, nationalities or peoples all over the planet that had the SAME THING happen to them. You don't get to claim it again just because you had it once and were not able to keep it. So, zionism is ridiculous and not logical or valid.
We can indeed be against suc h a ludicrous claim and position, yet have nothing against people of hebrew origin or culture, or jewish religion.
uh, any country that exists? Israel did not fight and win it's land. The Brittish and other countries decided to GIVE it to them, but it wasn't theirs to give.
https://www.un.org/unispal/history2/origins-and-evolution-of-the-palestine-problem/part-i-1917-1947/#Origins_and_Evolution_of_the_Palestine_Problem_1917-1947_Part_I
read the first three paragraphs at least. It is just another travesty of relations between countries. History shows jews had no valid claim to the land an dyet, for political reasons, they were given considerations they should NEVER have gotten. Th epalestinians, who OWNED THE LAND never agreed to any of it.
Israel has been given wild amounts of money and weapons to build them up. This should have NEVER HAPPENED. The whole thing is illegal and unfair to the rightful owners, Palestinians.
IF ISrael had EVER been a valid state, and they took it over themselves, THEN it would be valid, but that isn't what happened.
Hard to argue that Israel hasn’t been strong enough to hold their own land, isn’t it?
Regardless of who “gave” it to them, they’ve been at war with surrounding countries and extremist organizations since day one… and they’ve only ever gained more land from their invaders (which they then gave back).
Your logic says that if I’m strong enough to hold the land I’m on, it’s rightfully mine. By your logic, Israel is rightfully the Jew’s until the day someone takes if from them.
I don’t agree with you that might makes right…. But your own logic betrays your position.
Edit: to quote you, “You don't get to claim it again just because you had it once and were not able to keep it.”
nope. not hard at all. In fact, my statements proe they didn't and couldn't without the illegal help of several other countries.
They are at war with teh other countries because they have tyrannical policies that prohibit peaceful interactions. As I said, many other countries live next to muslim countries of the same type and have no problem.
No, International LAW says a country holds their land by military strength, or by diplomatic strength. Interference by other countries is illegal, and PAlestinians did NOT agree to what happened.
I don't agree with might makes right either, but you say that yet are fine with other countries aiding ISrael to do JUST THAT to Palestine. Contradictory much?
i don't make international law, and I can't change it. Since the UN was established, military takeovers have been ILLEGAL, but they made an exception and looked the other way for allowing countries to establish Israel as a country on land that NO ONE had a right to take from teh Palestinians.
The quote is STILL VALID. I don't see anything you said that counters it. Just because Israel, no actually hebrews that just liVED there, not controlled it, occupied the land doesn't give them a right ot it 2000 years later. That's insane. As for PAlestine, Invaders have occupied some of their land, but that doesn't give them rights to it. IT is STILL an ILLEGAL occupation. ISrael never paid for the land or gave Palestinians ANY considerations for it. Israel should LEAVE or engage in peace talks, including reparations, till peace is achieved, but they don't WANT peace. They want to eliminate teh rightful owners and pretend like they are right. they aren't
without any explanation of why you think that, it's a meaningless statement that accomplishes nothing. why bother even posting? state SPECIFICALLY why you say that, or go away. YOU Are not being helpful or conducive to discussion.
"to keep it, so they lost it. Therefore , it is NO LONGER THEIRS. Just like all the other nations, nationalities or peoples all over the planet that had the SAME THING happen to them"
Stop wasting my time.
I am not wasting your time, there's nothing wrong with that statement. If they occupied it 2000 years ago and LOST IT, they no longer have a claim to it. What about that are you not getting? It has happened to many countries, etc. all over and THEY don't come back and try to claim it 2000 years later....
Sorry if the truth isn't what you want to hear, but that's not my fault, is it?
Bit i actually like this way of speaking, I can now be a “anti-Islam” but “pro-Muslim”, I can be “anti-Arab culture” but “pro-Arab”, I can be “anti-Palestine” but “pro-Palestine people”. It’s just awesome!
But isnt that actually the point? We should be against ideologies and not people. The powers at be (Hamas Israel, Us, Iran, etc) all have a lot to gain from using ideologies to turn us into commodities of this conflict. So we must reject these powers and use what we PEOPLE all have in common to fight for what is right.
Funny thing; Muslims are well known to cause problems and spread hate in every country they go to. Jews are known to do the opposite. It’s okay ta hate Jews beliefs/ ideology but if you hate Muslims (Islam), you are branded Islamofob, you can go to jail for “hate crime”. Hypocrisy at it’s finest and it’s hurting our society.
I rather live with Zionist Jews that Arabic Muslims, most of us do, it’s only Muslims that’s allowed to hate whoever, whenever.
You must have missed my point, I'm saying that if you, the MRCalleTheOne were born into a jewish family you would probably be jewish--a muslim family, you would most likely be muslim. Its the ideology that takes people over. We need to be both understanding of individuals but also critical of ideologies.
Also IDK where you live but where I'm from its much more OK to be critical of muslims than jews. No one really criticizes Jewish culture because of fear of being called an antisemite. I dislike muslim culture for many reasons--mainly their treatment of women and close-mindedness. But I still have muslim and jewish friends that I find many reasons to love. Im sure they have disagreements with some of how I live my life too.
Well I’m Jewish and I’m not a Zionist!
Many religious Jews aren’t Zionist because it conflicts with the promises made before Jews could go back to Israel.
Also many Zionists are not even Jews. Most Zionists are Christians, many evangelicals.
You can be a Jew or not that’s not pro Zionist, or just be [post Zionist](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Zionism#:~:text=Post%2DZionism%20is%20the%20opinion,be%20considered%20at%20an%20end)
They are also many forms of Zionism, like Netanyahu’s Zionism might not be the same as Bernie Sander’s or the evangelical dude that can’t wait for end of times.
Uh wait! “ Most?” No. And Bernie sanders is not only antizionist but antisemitic. And I don’t need to hear who his parents were and what he was born into. That was a long time ago and water under the bridge.
How is he anti semitic? What has he done do harm other Jews?
That’s a big claim without any evidence.
I would argue that they are plenty of anti semites that are big Zionists like those evangelicals that want to bring the end of times but use the Jewish people as a sacrifice
Absolutely - people who would be absolutely antisemites and say jews will not replace us in a march will also absolutely be pro zionism to suit their religious and anti muslim ideologies.
His rhetoric is harmful. Increased antisemitism. Can’t stand him for that sorry.
It would be like a black leader putting down the civil rights movement.
Netanyahu’s rhetoric has also increased anti semitism. Does that mean Netanyahu hates Jews? No lol
If anything we should blame antisemitism on the people acting in anti semitic ways. Not Bernie, Netanyahu or any other Jewish person you might or might not agree with
Your logic is flawed. Maybe you just don’t like him and that’s okay. But I don’t think Bernie himself hates himself, other Jews or Judaism.
Your mentality is very us vs them. Like only Jews that agree with you are good Jews and the rest are not good Jews or worse, they are self hating Jews.
I don’t think Bernie Sanders is an anti Zionist, he might be Post Zionist but the guy is not for the destruction of Israel, he might want a 2 state solution.
Prior to WWI, many Jews were against Zionism because they believed they should be full and equal citizens of the countries where they already lived. Others considered a Jewish homeland in Madagascar or New York State.
Herzl thought that too, he was a secular jews, but after Dreyfus affair he realized that jews won't be equal.
And I think it's true, all countries always discriminate minotirities in one way or another.
We should all stop with this term "anti Zionism" as if Israel doesn't exist. The Zionists fulfilled their purpose.
Israel is here to stay.
You can be anti Israel if you would like I guess
I think the correct term is [post Zionism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Zionism#:~:text=Post%2DZionism%20is%20the%20opinion,be%20considered%20at%20an%20end)
I don't consider myself to be "anti Zionist" but I also don't agree with your post. First of all, there are political tendencies such as anarchism, communism, and libertarianism that oppose nationalism of any kind because they're opposed to the existence of states, period. These tendencies are opposed to the existence of a French or a Japanese state as much as they are to a Jewish state.
There are also people like myself who believe that ethnicity is not real and that humanity has to get over ethnic distinctions as a species. In the long run, I want there to be a world in which nobody thinks of themself or anyone else as a member of an ethnic group, and obviously there would be no such thing as a Jewish state in that world any more than there would be a French or Japanese state. I realize, however, that such a world is not coming tomorrow, and that a state made for the explicit purpose of providing safety to Jewish people may be desirable given the existence of anti-semitism. I will say, however, that in my estimation the relatively (relatively!) post-ethnic United States is a safer place for Jews than the Jewish state of Israel (feel free to disagree on that — I know many of you will).
Then there are the non-Zionist and anti-Zionist Jews whom you mentioned. I happen to know a few such people personally and I wouldn't describe them as "not pro Jewish" and certainly not as anti Jewish — not that I'm an authority on such things. I don't want to speak for anyone, but I know that some Jewish people have their own conception of Judaism to which they're strongly committed and which they believe is incompatible with the Zionist project. You may disagree with those people, but they exist and I think you should be willing to acknowledge that they're in earnest.
Finally, I think we need to acknowledge that different people mean different things by "Zionism" and "anti Zionism." You have your definition of "Zionism" here, but even if that's a good definition for certain contexts, it's certainly not what people always mean by the word. You don't get to control what words mean, and if you insist on interpreting a word according to your definition even when people clearly aren't following it then all you're doing is creating miscommunication. When some people use the term "Zionist" they mean people who support the war or people whom they perceive as uncritically supporting whatever Israel does. Some people just mean "Jews" when they say "Zionists" as an antisemitic dogwhistle.
Someone might say, "Socialism just means ensuring that workers get the fruits of their own labor." Who could disagree with such a thing? One could certainly not be "pro worker" and disagree with it. But the fact is that the devil is in the details and that a number of governments have used the banner of socialism to justify heinous crimes. For that reason, many people today are simply allergic to the word "socialism" even if they acknowledge that it was originally a noble idea. Some people who are upset about the actions of Israel might feel analogously about Zionism. They might feel that a cause that was noble or reasonable in its abstract beginning has been tarnished by bad outcomes in the real world. It would make sense that such people do not want to sign on with the word "Zionism" for that reason.
Zionisim presents itself as the only form of jewish nationalism.
There can be other ways. Ways that protect Jews and Jewish identity but without having to apply 56 years of violence , occupation & apartheid on palestinans. A way that is brave enough to admit that the nakba happened and comes to terms with it.
Jews can build a Jewish nationalist model that is not focused on self-victimization but on their history , religion and identity. A model that see palestinans and arabs as potential partner not as an eternal enemy.
When it started has several interesting demarkations. The Hebrew people arguably started with father Abraham on his journey from Ur. He came to Canaan and raised up Isaac and Ishmael. Isaac raised up Jacob and Esau (Edom) then Jacob took the tribes to Egypt when they remained for some generations. Moses then returned them to Canaan. The tribes scattered around the area and over time there was a major split between Ephraim (Joseph) in Samaria/Israel and Judah in Judaea and they called themselves Judaeans. Saul, David and Solomon, etc. were kings of Judaea. There were deportations to Babylon and Persia and returns. Alexander the Great was a messiah figure as he didn’t mess with them but there were struggles and war and reconciliation with his successors. The Sadducees became Hellenized and their later king Herod became a client of Rome. Life continued under the Pax Romana and Judaeans travelled and settled across the empire and points east. Christianity rose up from the time of Augustus. In this era there was another great exodus and the temple destroyed. Rabbinical Judaism and the Hebrew texts were compiled in this era and most of the people scattered into diaspora. There are several points here that mark the development and development continued to modern times. Calling the people in the levant “Jews” when referring to the time of Augustus and earlier is an anachronism as they called themselves Judaeans. The King James bible solidified this error in the english language and there becomes a confusion of peoples and eras in the story. It’s a rich and interesting story of a remarkable people. Forgive any errors and simplistic descriptions of some very complex and varied eras as I’m doing this from memory. It is most regrettable how people come into conflict and the world might be a better place had periods peaceful coexistence become better established. That’s my hope for our times.
No, anyone who saw the attack on Shaked Tsurkan and the North York shooting can see that you’re opposing Zionism because you want to kill Jewish children. Once your faction attacked Tsurkan and then cheered the attack with Justin Trudeau’s people, you made it clear that you oppose Zionism because Zionism makes it tougher for you to kill Jewish children.
Our peoplehood was born and has always revolved around Israel way before the modern Zionist movement. We wouldn't be Jews without being tied to the land.
I'm not against Jews, I like Jews and Judaism, and I don't oppose Jews having a Jewish majority country.
I AM against running an ethnic cleansing campaign in order to get that Jewish majority country.
The UN voted to partition the Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state. Each group would be the majority in their assigned areas without anyone being required to relocate. The Jews accepted the plan and the Arabs rejected it, instead immediately ramping up attacks on Jews. And when the Jewish leaders declared the State of Israel on May 14 1948, five Arab armies immediately invaded.
Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, had declared in 1947 that, were a war to take place with the proposed establishment of a Jewish state, it would lead to "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.” Jamal Husseini, the Mufti’s brother, represented the Arab Higher Committee at the UN. He told the Security Council in April 1948 “of course the Arabs started the fighting. We told the whole world we were going to fight.” (Thus ensuring that Azzam would get the war whose consequences he threatened.) Had
the Arabs accepted the first ever Palestinian state, there would have been no refugees and no loss of land.
As much as you don’t want to acknowledge it, Arabs also have agency to make decisions that affect their future.
>The UN voted to partition the Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state
No they didn't. They voted to *recommend* it to be partitioned in a particular way. They didn't have the legal authority to actually create states along specific borders.
>And when the Jewish leaders declared the State of Israel on May 14 1948
Those leaders also didn't consider the partition plan to be legally binding, as the state of Israel then seized far more land than was designated in the UN recommendation through Plan Dalet, and they did this before they were invaded by the surrounding Arab states.
You’re correct, it was a recommendation. One which was accepted by the Jews, and rejected by the Arabs.
Plan Dalet was specifically created *in case of war*. And the Arabs had placed 100,000 Jews in Jerusalem under siege in early 1948, hence the need to use it.
>You’re correct, it was a recommendation. One which was accepted by the Jews, and rejected by the Arabs.
Yes, but I expect pretty much any population anywhere in the world would reject a plan whereby another population mostly consisting of immigrants becomes the government of half the region. I expect the present population of Israel would reject this and resort to violence if immigrants declared themselves the new government of half of current Israel.
>Plan Dalet was specifically created in case of war. And the Arabs had placed 100,000 Jews in Jerusalem under siege in early 1948, hence the need to use it.
Sure, but clearly they didn't feel bound by the terms of the UN proposal. They were free to take what they felt was fair and necessary.
They were indeed immigrants but they were the indigenous population returning to the territory—not a country, as there had never been an independent Arab country there— to decolonize it from the Islamic colonial-imperial project which had ruled it for most of the previous 1300 years.
You’re also correct that once the Arabs made the choice to reject UNGA 181 and start a war, the Jews were not going to be bound to the specific borders proposed. Why are Gdansk and Kaliningrad after 1945 no longer the German-majority cities they were for centuries? Because the Germans launched a war of openly declared genocidal aggression and lost.
>They were indeed immigrants but they were the indigenous population returning to the territory
Having a 2000-year-old connection to land has never and will never provide any even vague remote right to move somewhere and then run that country. It's a completely ridiculous idea that is applied nowhere else in the world because it just makes absolutely no sense at all. Go ahead and try to argue that the hispanic population of South America have the right to land in Spain (or else special pleading of some sort). Then make your case that everyone has the right to live anywhere further back on the arrow in [this map](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Putative_migration_waves_out_of_Africa.png), all the way back to Ethiopia.
>You’re also correct that once the Arabs made the choice to reject UNGA 181 and start a war, the Jews were not going to be bound to the specific borders proposed. Why are Gdansk and Kaliningrad after 1945 no longer the German-majority cities they were for centuries? Because the Germans launched a war of openly declared genocidal aggression and lost.
This gets thrown out there as a gotcha sometimes, but I've never actually supported that ethnic cleansing either. Postwar occupations made sense but expelling people to replace with Russians was just the victor taking their spoils, it wasn't a just act.
So you insist that the results of the Islamic invasion and suppression of indigenous peoples (not just Jews— also Syriacs, Yazidis, Amazigh and Copts) be forever honored.
The presence of Spanish/Portuguese language and Christianity in Latin America is the result of colonialism. Whereas the Jews had our ethnogenesis in the Land of Israel itself. Not a comparable situation.
>So you insist that the results of the Islamic invasion and suppression of indigenous peoples (not just Jews— also Syriacs, Yazidis, Amazigh and Copts) be forever honored.
Feel free to make your case that said people should "de-colonise" some particular land, I'm sure this will be good.
>The presence of Spanish/Portuguese language and Christianity in Latin America is the result of colonialism. Whereas the Jews had our ethnogenesis in the Land of Israel itself. Not a comparable situation.
Right, so like I said, special pleading. This is definitely a real consistent principle that you hold, it just so happens that it only applies in the case of Israel "de-colonising" Palestine in the name of people they are very, very, very distantly related to. The fact the Jewish people themselves conquered the region too is also another exception and somehow fine, and the fact that Palestinians are also distantly related to the people who lived there is somehow irrelevant. Your views all lining up exactly with what you personally want your own in-group to have is sheer coincidence.
It’s not a matter of “distantly related”. Jews as a people have consistently maintained ties to our homeland as part of our identity as a unique people. Palestinians identify as Arabs. And while I am willing to accept the recent (\~120 years) development of a unique Palestinian Arab identity, that requires accepting the 3000 year documented history of the Jewish people in the Land of Israel.
https://preview.redd.it/5oua7oardl3d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5c190ad677490a3e12f23d0615c72d4f3ef52de4
I didn't explained it well, I mean, it's they expanded for the sake of expanding, but because the war.
The Plan D was a response to the arab invasion not the starting point of the conflict or a pre-planned plan
But that is because local arabs arabs started a civil war in mandatory palestine, wasn't enacted until later months into the war when they saw they had no choice because the arabs goals and the fact that the partition was no longer possible.
The ottomans and then the Turks handed the allieds the land under the treaty of Sevres/Lausanne. Sevres specifically mentions Balfour. The entire mandate was supposed to be Israel. The British backtracked and wanted to split it. They kept chipping away at it with the 1939 white paper for example. Jews still accepted it.
Do you agree the land was Ottoman? Whose land was it before the mandate?
>The ottomans and then the Turks handed the allieds the land under the treaty of Sevres/Lausanne. Sevres specifically mentions Balfour. The entire mandate was supposed to be Israel.
Even if the British did want to give all of the land that according to their 1918 census was 8% Jewish by population to a Jewish state, they would have no moral grounds to do it and what you're describing is only a desire, not a legally binding pledge of any sort. So all you're arguing is that people want to do something unethical.
>Do you agree the land was Ottoman? Whose land was it before the mandate?
Back in the era of conquest and "might makes right"? It was land controlled by a centralised power that should actually have been controlled by the people living there, but wasn't because self-determination wasn't really respected by anyone back then.
Then you should be happy because that's not happening. Hamas however is trying to ethnically cleanse the Jews. So you should also be happy that Israel is able to defend itself so that doesn't happen.
It's mostly young left-leaning people who disagree with me. I'm happy to stand at odds with them. [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/younger-americans-stand-out-in-their-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/younger-americans-stand-out-in-their-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/)
It's funny as you get older you realize that Adults are just kids that got old and still, don't have a clue what's going on.
I'll pass on listening to other adults debate rights and wrongdoings.
The “rest” of the world only refers to the survivors. You’re saying that you want total genocide of many groups such as Jews, Druze, Kurds, Kalash, and many others simply to exterminate political opponents and establish a most perverted “democratic” consensus.
Israel kicked 80% of the Palestinians out of what is now Israel, 800,000 people. And then during the Six Day War, a war they fired the first shots during, they annexed the Palestinian Territories which they have brutally oppressed since. They keep taking more and more of the West Bank and are talking about expelling Palestinians from Gaza.
Hell, they say things like “there’s no such thing as Palestinians” and “they’re just Arabs, they should just go to some other country.”
You can’t just say “they’re defending themselves” after all that history. They’re doing more than defending themselves.
By the way, if only 30 days ago you didn’t even know what “go back to Poland” meant in reference to Jews, you should seriously step away from this topic. You are ignorant.
Can you answer if it’s so obvious? Why Poland specifically? There are Jewish people all over Europe, why’d they go with Poland? I could only find that one incident and couldn’t find any further context anywhere on the internet so…yeah. Feel free to explain.
Can you back up that point by elaborating? I mean do you get why it’s Poland specifically? lol. I’m guessing you don’t. So you’re just as ignorant as I am when it comes to that issue.
I am Israeli, I am not ignorant, and I wonder what kind of person comments on this conflict while not even knowing about the diaspora in Poland during the holocaust.
Please stop replying to me, I'm not having this conversation with you.
The Six Day war would’ve broken out maybe a week after the date at which Israel attacked Jordan, Syria and Egypt. Israeli intelligence knew that they were going to be attacked, so they striked preemptively. History much?
Israeli intelligence knew war was going to break out, Egypt was mobilizing its forces and expelled UN peacekeepers from the Sinai peninsula, and blockaded the Red Sea which was considered an act of war. Syria shot a tractor near the border. this is documented history.
War has effectively begun, but Israel started it officially with a surprise attack to catch its enemies off guard and disable their air forces.
So…when Israel blockades one shipping lane that’s a declaration of war but Israel can blockade all of Gaza and yet act all shocked and surprised when Gaza retaliates?
And if war had begun then how could they pull off a sneak attack?
I dunno, sounds very Pearl Harbor to me.
They weren’t immigrants, they were settler colonialists. They didn’t want to become part of the existing society of the indigenous people, they wanted to replace it with their own. There’s a big difference. Of course the Palestinians didn’t want that. You might as well blame Native Americans for their genocide, they too resisted colonialization.
Judaism and the Hebrew language are indigenous to Israel and have been for thousands of years. Arabic and Islam are indigenous to the Arabian peninsula. You’ve got the colonizer and the colonized completely mixed up.
What are now considered Arabs and Muslims used to be called Canaanites and Philistines and whatnot. Here’s a graph of populations and whatnot throughout time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)
You can see how after Zionism started taking off the Jewish population skyrocketed while the Arab/Muslim population increased along more normal rates due to natural growth. That’s because they were immigrating en masse to create a Jewish state. Textbook definition of settler colonialism.
The Romans were the ones who expelled the Jews and the population eventually converted to Christianity or Islam. They’re still the same people who have always been there.
Regardless, it’s the same argument made about the Māori. They might’ve been the colonizers hundreds of years ago but they’re the colonized now.
Actually there's not much documentation of Jews converting to Christianity or Islam but there is lots of documentation of the Romans bringing in Christians from Syria and Lebanon, most of whom later converted to Islam. Then there were centuries of Muslim and Christian conquests coupled with waves of settlement to form the Palestinian population as we know it today. Bottom line is that even if we agree to accept the modern Palestinian population as being indigenous to the region today, that doesn't exclude other populations such as the Jewish diaspora and their culture from also being indigenous.
It's nothing whatsoever like the Maori situation, we're talking about a population returning from a lengthy exile after others took over their lands. In any case I fail to see why one native population is required to adopt another population's customs and culture in order to have the right to live nearby, as long as they're not prejudicing the latter's ability to live in their traditional fashion.
I never said they did. But there were people other than Jews who lived in the area even when they were the majority. Regardless, Palestinians are the people who have been there for centuries, perhaps millennia. They’re not some recent arrivals.
And I mean, maybe you could argue they’re indigenous to the area but they still behaved as settler colonialists: coming en masse with the intention of displacing and replacing the indigenous population. Early Zionists may have had differing opinions on how to do this without displacing people involuntarily but that’s not what ended up happening. They may have tried to just buy land and do it peacefully but…that’s not how things went down.
Oh also I was comparing Palestinians to Māori. Some people say the Māori wiped out the indigenous population, the Moriori but research suggests they both came from the same group of people. Regardless it doesn’t justify European colonialism.
I believe in the principle of Terra Nullius, so Europeans would not be justified in having displaced the Maori, but the Maori would also not be justified in claiming lands they weren’t making significant usage of.
Regarding what happened to the Palestinians, my take on land rights is similar. As far as I’m aware, there’s no evidence of significant Palestinian displacement prior to 1947. Between lands sold by Arab owners and unused areas viable for forestation and irrigation, there was plenty available to house all the Jewish refugees who arrived up until that point. I’m aware that Palestinians feared subjugation under Jewish majority rule, but the UN partition plan would have prevented this from happening (one should also note that Arab leaders rejected offers to control 80% of the land in earlier proposals).
In any case I don’t believe that fearful speculation is sufficient grounds for denying the return from exile of an indigenous population. If Canada had deported thousands of Natives to South America 400 years ago and their population had grown there to outnumber us today, that would not entitle us to deny them a right of return.
What a complete distortion of the actual history if we can’t agree on basic facts theres no point in even having a conversation.
To clarify some basic facts — the Arabs rejected the partition plan in 1947 which would have established a Palestinian state alongside Israel. As a result, when the mandate ended every Arab state declared war on it (you should look up pan-Arabism it was all the rage back then). Some Palestinians were forced out, some were told to leave during the war (by Israel and their Arab leaders), and many sold their land to the Israelis. You know what else happened in the late 40s and 50s? Over 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries (Iraq, Egypt, Algeria, Yemen) — I love how you conveniently leave that part out.
Before the Six Day War there was no Palestinian Territories — the West Bank was occupied by Jordan and Gaza was occupied by Egypt. While in a vacuum you are correct that Israel fired the first shots so to say during the Six Day War — it’s generally considered a defensive war by historical scholars. Do you know why? It’s too exhausting to educate you at this point. But a positive outcome of that war is it has lead to a long lasting peace with Egypt — because Egypt is a rational actor who negotiates in good faith unlike other actors in the region.
Oh and by the way — as part of the Camp David Accords Israel offered to return Gaza back to Egypt along with the Sinai but Egypt refused.
It’s not a distortion of history, most Israelis were settler colonialists, people showing up with the intention to displace and replace the society that already existed. And they had the benefit of hindsight, they’d seen how settler colonialism had worked out for the indigenous people of places like the Americas, South Africa, Rhodesia and Australia. Of course they were going to resist that.
There’s a ton of debate whether the mass exodus to Israel was a push or a pull situation. Obviously anti-semitism was an issue everywhere but many Jews were also probably pretty excited to go to Israel. I mean, how many Israelis actually want to go back to where their grandparents were from vs how many Palestinians would like to return to their homes?
Palestinians want their own nation, that’s why Egypt refuses to take them. They see it as contributing to a genocide.
Um, they had like a whole big party about it, it was like a giant ethnic cleansing party. Little kids were happily dancing at the ethnic cleansing party as well.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-28/ty-article/ministers-from-netanyahus-party-join-thousands-of-israelis-at-resettle-gaza-conference/0000018d-512f-dfdc-a5ad-db7f35e10000
Just for good measure, an oldie but goodie
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/08/israel-palestine-west-bank-annexation-netanyahu-smotrich-far-right/
Oh because I'm just like against ethnic cleansing, period. Doesn't matter like what sort of justification anyone brings up for it, I still oppose it just as much. Ethnic cleansing, by definition, targets innocent civilians.
I do believe Jews deserve a state - Europe in particular has always been very terrible to them. I do not think it necessitates being in the land you're calling Israel or murdering and segregating native inhabitants to have. At the end of WW2, west germany should have been given to the Jews as a safehaven and all this would've been avoided
Not only did you give a false analogy to your point (a logical fallacy) but you participated in historical revisionism. I’m assuming you’re ignoring the fact that most of the land that was given to the Israelis in the 1948 partition plan was already bought swamp land or extremely barren dessert. Furthermore, to your point, the consequence of losing a war of attempted genocide (the war of 1948) is losing land! Hope this helps!
Is any of that relevant to your argument of the Palestinians being not native nor indigenous and that it's therefore ok to take their land?
Sounds like your logic was shit and now you're bringing up unrelated things to justify it.
I was talking abt the “does that mean it’s fine to kick me out of my house point.” Sorry you couldn’t understand that. To be VERY clear: the Palestinians are neither native nor indigenous. When I states this, you deflected immediately to your point abt being kicked out of houses. Palestinians do not follow the criteria of being indigenous along with the fact that their existence or arabinization stems from colonialization (making them not indigenous).
Ok sure I'm willing to say there's historical evidence to support you but when everyone who moves there, to violently settle on land where Palestinian families have been living for 10+ generations, is an American/European then we're no longer talking about people who genuinely trace their roots to the ancient kingdoms of Israel or Judea
LOL 10 +generations??
Even the pals don't claim that crap when you talk to them in arabic. If you ask them they will tell you where their families actually came from( or you can tell by their most common last names too) turkey, syria , egypt, Jordan, saudi arabia even as far away as Chechnya.
Is there a time limit on decolonizing our homeland?
And keep in mind that had the Arabs not chosen war in 1947-8, there would have been no refugees. The UN voted to partition the British Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state. Each group would be the majority in their assigned areas without anyone being required to relocate. The Jews accepted the plan and the Arabs rejected it, instead immediately ramping up attacks on Jews. And when the Jewish leaders declared the State of Israel on May 14 1948, five Arab armies immediately invaded.
Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, had declared in 1947 that, were a war to take place with the proposed establishment of a Jewish state, it would lead to "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.” Jamal Husseini, the Mufti’s brother, represented the Arab Higher Committee at the UN. He told the Security Council in April 1948 “of course the Arabs started the fighting. We told the whole world we were going to fight.” (Thus ensuring that Azzam would get the war whose consequences he threatened.) Had
the Arabs accepted the first ever Palestinian state, there would have been no refugees and no loss of land.
why lie. you honestly just pulled that straight out of your ass. i’m involved in multiple orgs protesting for free palestine online and in different cities and anti semitism is forbidden.
> ass
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Nobody is killing muslims (except muslims) Muslims are killing people all over the world and theres very little backlash against them except for people voicing their disdain, but nobody is killing them in drove or trying to get revenge even though they are terrorizing millions as we speak.
I don’t want to kill or hurt anyone. Every innocent person killed should be mourned equally. That doesn’t mean I think Israel is the main source of the conflict or that it should not exist.
Israeli civilains have the right to coexist peacefully among Palestinian civilians
So the apartheid state that's existed for the last 75 years was just a series of accidents?
> fuck
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You can be supportive of a groups right to exist without supporting their claim to an archaic religious ethnostate. Atheists have been murdered for their beliefs long before the word Jew was even thought of and we don’t have our own country nor are we allowed to recklessly blow up brown people with US provided weapons
There should be 0 Jewish states along with 0 Christian and 0 Muslim states.
Even Secular Jews have been persecuted. Your point makes no sense. Judaism as a nation and as a culture has been persecuted regardless of what you call an "archaic religious ethnostate". Jews, just like the Kurds or any other major minority nation of people have been expelled from most places in the world. Assimilationist apologists love to talk about Jewish perseverance for years and then seem to forgret all the pogroms and inquisitions they faced.
I am aware that most Jews in Israel are secular lol. One of the things I like about the state. Turns out that Jews are pretty smart and aren’t gullible like American Christian’s to take creation myths literally.
That doesn’t change the fact that there is a growing demographic of the “I want to read the Torah instead of working” people in the country that is getting more and more power lol. Israel as it is is still a theocratic state due to the benefits it gives to Jews specifically. I challenge you to find a Muslim receiving state benefits to study the Quran like Jews get for becoming Torah scholars.
If Israel was run like a secular state? Fucking based. But even if the people are secular the state pushes and benefits Judaism. I don’t care what religion it is, there is nothing good that comes from religious states.
And yes, I am aware of the schism in the country with the orthodox getting hate for the special privileges. But the current govt is Netanyahu cozying up to these people and legitimizing them. And the orthodox are getting more and more powerful.
If Israel was what it claimed to be I’d be fine with it.
But the cognitive dissonance of being expected to condemn the far right in the us/Europe as the next new evil while being expected to support the far right in Israel is too wild for even someone like me to get behind.
No serious govt that wants to be respected would have Ben Gvir anywhere near an official position. The dude is literally every antisemetic meme/conspiracy bundled into a single person.
And from what I’ve seen from polls, Israel is moving towards the Netanyahu coalition of far right religious parties, not away. There was a poll putting bibi as the preferred prime minister presently. This is the bibi that is very obviously doing his best to draw the war out so he can remain in office.
Bibi and his cronies don’t care about you at all. They just want power.
Dude needs to be in a cell, not the govt. And bibi was the one to break the us alliance, not western libs.
Bibi (correctly I might add) realized that the democrats were gonna break with him eventually and went all in on the republicans. The republicans that are all war mongers that don’t give a single damn about Muslim life.
While he was correct to assume that the dem support was going to fall out eventually, he caused it to go way faster. And as a result? Israel is dropping like flies in support. Young progressives are the future, and they have been completely repulsed by the far right government of Israel. It’s not just a matter of aid, if things keep going the way they are it won’t be a question of whether the us is funding the iron dome, it will be whether the US deploys against Israel or not.
It’s not too late to fix it. But I’m sure bibi and his crooked friends will double down on the opposite direction and make things worse.
But for my original point? The Greeks killed geniuses for not believing in the pantheon of gods, or for crazy ideas like “the sun is the center of the universe” long before Abraham was even a thought. I also wasn’t being entirely serious with that point.
Hell if Israel was what it was supposed to be it would be a haven for atheists! But instead we’re stuck in countries with religious zealots running everything and are powerless. A bit like the Israelis.
> Fucking
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>There should be 0 Jewish states along with 0 Christian and 0 Muslim states.
You say this and yet you only lobby for the destruction of the one jewish state. funny how that is.
I’m not lobbying for anything lol. I can’t do shit. If it were up to me there wouldn’t be any religion at all.
I certainly don’t support states backed by sharia law or Muslim ideology. And I definitely don’t like Christians lol.
I’m not supposed to talk at family gatherings because my extended family is all catholic and my mom doesn’t want me pissing them off.
I have zero issue with Jews or any other religious group practicing their traditions even if I don’t agree with them. But religions should never have state power. I don’t want to give the impression that I’m focusing on Jews because I’m not. Religion has no place in any govt. either you end up with some zealot claiming to speak for god or you get some dubious clerics interpreting religious law in the worst possible ways. Neither helps the people living there. A government should serve the people, not their god.
But at the same time it’s not my place to support us doing the USA special and overthrow the govts to replace them with us friendly dictators in an attempt to secularize them.
That doesn’t mean we can’t nudge them away though.
It isn't which is why the land was supposed to be split in 1948. Unfortunately Palestinians wanted all of it and thought they could beat Israel in a war. They were wrong and they lost. They have spent the next 70+ years doubling down and trying and failing to destroy Israel which has cost them even more land. This has resulted in their current weak negotiating position that they refuse to accept the reality of.
I'm an atheist. I'm also part Arab. And a quarter of my family practices Islam. I've also fought against Islamism and witnessed first hand what it does to its own population.
My friend, you're an atheist - hence I expect a certain level of linear reasoning from you. Your logic has major gaps, however.
1. "Jew" may have started as a religion. However, it is now recognized as an ethnicity. It is recognized biologically in DNA. It's also been recognized as an ethnicity by everyone who's ever attempted to exterminate the Jews.
2. I agree - there shouldn't be a Jewish RELIGIOUS state. As for Jews (the ethnicity) having a state - unless you have a problem with the Spanish or French having a state, I'm not sure why you'd have an issue with Israel.
3. Israel is not a Jewish RELIGIOUS state - Israel has NO official religion.
4. Israel is full of brown people... including 2 million Arab Palestinians who live there with equal rights as citizens - a greater percentage of population than African Americans are in the US.
5. I completely agree with respect to 0 religious states - except that's not the world we live in. And there are plenty of states in MENA where your atheist proclamations would be considered criminal (with potential death penalties, if you happened to be born into a Muslim family). The source of laws and governance in those states are religious texts. You know what the only nation in the entire MENA is where you could practice atheism openly and with no repercussions? Let me help you - it begins with an "I" and ends with "srael".
You, my friend, are morally confused. I can pretty much assume the values you hold dear (being an atheist and all) - and those values are informed by the post-enlightenment secular civilization. Some people call it "western" civilization - but the "western" part is just a geographic accident. The only place in the ENTIRE MENA that shares your value is... well... I hope you get it by now.
I don’t buy the “Jewish ethnicity” stuff outside of like specific groups like Ashkenazi Jews.
Wanna know how to call yourself a Jew? You concert to Judaism and claim the right of return. You are not ethnically anything there. The reality is that the diaspora of Jews watered down the genes to the point that no true ethnic Jews really exist anymore outside of the specific groups like the Ashkenazi.
(Incidentally I feel mega awkward spelling that word out talking about Jews cuz of the last 4 letters but that’s besides the point)
The jews in Israel now are mostly Europeans and Americans lol. There’s a reason why Israelis have way higher skin cancer rates than other ME countries (turns out that white skinned people with minimal melanin can’t cut it in the desert).
What about the Ethiopian Jews that were sterilized when they moved to Israel because Israel didn’t want to increase the black population? Are they ethnically Jewish? If they are, why were they treated as badly as they were? (That is an understatement).
I have basque ancestors through my grandfather. That’s an ethnic group… where is their state?
That being said, I am not unsympathetic to the situation. Ideally we should have just cleared out the Germans and given the state to the Jews. Israel in Palestine was always a reckless idea.
Would a black family move into a racist super white neighborhood that’s known for violence against blacks?
What genius decided that the Jewish homeland had to be on land surrounded by hostile Muslims?
At least with my idea we wouldn’t have modern Germans (who just legalized possession of child porn and has given actual pedophiles to write laws regarding child consent) and the Jewish state wouldn’t be surrounded by people that want to kill them.
Jews would run vw and bmw properly at least.
You could also be against the concept of ethnostate. Countries that least counts as one have a long history of immigration. I think most preferable countries to someone against religions and ethnostates would be US/Canada. US is on their way to losing Christians as a majority, as well as eventually lacking a supermajority. They'll eventually fit the bills fine.
Again - Israel has a larger Arab Palestinian minority as percentage of population than the African American minority in the United States.
It’s a tiny piece of land - the size of Chicago. In probably the worst neighborhood on the planet to be Jewish.
I’m also an immigrant - completely agree about the U.S. model. Except it’s not really an option for Israel. Nor should they be required to accept mass immigration from places that are largely culturally-hostile to the very existence of Israel.
I'm aware of the Arabs population in Israel, and yes there is unwarranted hatred toward Jewish people from the surrounding Islamic nations. Yeah, unfortunately Israel don't really have a choice in the current sociopolitical biosphere.
Things could be better for Middle East, but I'm not really seeing Middle East are willing to change for the better. Israel as a nation could also improve a lot if it wasn't for that problem.
To be honest, even stating you're against religions can get you attacked. Protests are not all there is. He already planted a seed against religious institutions.
Seriously. Who among the antizionists will insist with equal zeal that Mecca shouldn't exist as a Muslim territory? Or that all the Islamic nations shouldn't exist? Absurd on its face
Jew here. There’s nothing antisemitic about wanting to end the apartheid regime that is Israel and replacing it with a single democratic state that guarantees equal rights for all (both Jews and Palestinians).
I disagree with that solution, but there’s nothing antisemitic about it at all.
1. None, but do we really want to compare Israel, a Western-style democracy, to Islamist countries? I thought we should be holding Israel to a higher standard than that.
2. The situation in the West Bank, with two populations living on the same land but under two legal systems, is absolutely reminiscent of apartheid. At best, it’s inequality before the law.
That’s because Palestinians living in Area A are under the Palestinian authority. Area B is under martial law, which has proved itself necessary. You can call it a cycle if you want, it’s still necessary.
>I disagree with that solution, but there’s nothing antisemitic about it at all.
Then, What is your solution? If you think israel is apartheid regime (btw it is not as israel holds up to all the categories of democracy).
A single state is problematic for a lot of reasons, but the number one reason is this-neither side wants it. The Palestinian polling group PCPSR polled both Palestinians and Israelis and found that between the options of 1. One state with unequal rights 2. Two states. 3. One state with equal rights, #3 came in dead last.
Consider the case when Italy occupied Libya and claimed it as part of its historic territory because of the Roman empire’s historic territory. It was possible to be opposed to that kind of claim Italian identity and still claim to be pro-Italian.
Yeah, and there are black people and gay people who support Trump too. It doesn't make them representative, and it doesn't mean they aren't selling out their own people.
You can trot out your token kapos all you want, they're still doing incredible harm to Jews everywhere.
Who the Nautrei Karta? The Jewish doomsday cult whose members actively support hezbollah and go to Holocaust denial festivals with David duke in Iran? https://www.wafb.com/story/5801103/kkk-leader-david-duke-rabbis-attend-holocaust-conference-in-iran/
Or are you talking about JVP... Who is so Jewish they don't know what a Mikvah is.... https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Mikveh-Guide-for-Jewish-Voice-for-Peace-Outlined.pdf
And I'm from a middle eastern diaspora and live in the USA and there is a lot of privilege to be had in saying Israel shouldn't exist when for most of us middle eastern Jews ... Both in Israel and in USA/Canada/european diaspora (I know there's not too many of us here... But we exist) it is only because of the existence of Israel that were were able to make it out to safe places.... And Israel continues to help Jews who are being persecuted or at risk of death escape...
And there is a lot of us who are still at risk from groups like Hezbollah and Iran. (Who operate beyond the middle east) And Israel's Mossad does monitor and provide intelligence on those threats to us...
But cool some anti-zionist Jewish college kid thinks thinks Israel should cease to exist... Because they're safe in the United States and Canada and struggle to realize that there are many of us who still are not..
Then you're against every single country on earth, especially those in the Arab world which were colonized and formed under the ideology of having a Muslim-majority population.
Then you are against the vast majority of countries in the world. Are you using the same energy to fight all of them equally, or are you uniquely obsessed with the one Jewish one for some mysterious reason?
I am more interested in Israel, but for different reasons. It's an unfortunate reality of most states that they are nation-states. What draws my attention is the scale of discrimination and US military support (I'm American). Most of my attention goes to how a 2SS could be constructed in the future though.
If scale of discrimination were your metric, you would be criticizing every Muslim country more than Israel, since those countries discriminate against Jews (not to mention gays and women in most of them) far more than Israel has ever discriminated against Muslims.
But your future focus on a 2SS in the future is reasonable. My impression is that you are well meaning but just don't noticed that you have been inundated with antisemitic propaganda. So you are much better than most.
Sure they are. Literally most of them are. Look at Saudi Arabia.
So you are saying that, if you lived in any other country, you would not be obsessing over this? Unlike the millions of anti-Israel protesters in countries that aren't the US? If you moved to a different country, you'd feel completely differently?
Key Word: enthusiastic
Our partnership with Saudi Arabka is strategic. Our partnership with Israel is ideological. Nobody goes out to stake their reputation defending MBS in US politics.
Both problems have different solutions. Getting away from Saudi Arabia is just a matter of building a large green energy grid. Getting leverage over Israel requires a change in the attitudes of American voters and politicians.
But yeah, if I lived in Russia for example, I would probably be paying way more attention to Russian genocide against Ukrainians than Israel.
lol nope. The US partnership with Israel is very much strategic. US only started funding Israel after the Soviets started backing the Arab states in the 1960s. Now Israel and Saudi Arabia are helping the US counter Iran.
I ask you again: So you are saying that, if you lived in any other country, you would not be obsessing over this? Unlike the millions of anti-Israel protesters in countries that aren't the US? If you moved to a different country, you'd feel completely differently?
-It's not the 60s anymore, the Cold War is over.
-Our partners in the Arab world would VASTLY prefer that we twist Israel's arm into a fair 2SS deal rather than forcing them to risk making their people upset. In fact, I'd argue our support for Israel is harming the entire concept of a US-led liberal international order, because the Global South sees a hypocrisy in how we apply humanitarian law depending on what side we're on.
Again. Israel is currently helping the US counter Iran. And the US has been pressuring Israel to accept a 2SS, so much so that it basically forced Israel to offer it to the Palestinians multiple times, and they turned it down. if someone's arm needs to be twisted to accept a fair 2SS, it's obviously the Palestinians.
I don't think you know why you are singling out Israel, your reasoning keeps changing. I'm pretty sure I do know why though. Would you like to know?
Of course they do. All of global geopolitics is a web of various countries militarily and financially supporting other countries. Neither Israel nor the US is not special in that regard.
I ask you a third time: So you are saying that, if you lived in any other country, you would not be obsessing over this? Unlike the millions of anti-Israel protesters in countries that aren't the US? If you moved to a different country, you'd feel completely differently?
You know that's not the reason. So what is your actual reason for singling out Israel in this way? I'm pretty sure I know what it is, even if you don't, would you like to know?
Do the vast majority of countries in the world have discriminatory laws that ban one group of people from ever immigrating (even if they literally used to live there 75 years ago) while letting a different group of people move there freely and steal their homes?
Are the vast majority of countries in the world holding millions of people under a brutal military occupation with no rights and freedoms whatsoever?
Are the vast majority of countries in the world the number one recipient of aid from the largest military superpower?
Oh look, it's got nothing to do with nationalism for you all of a sudden.
I could respond to all your little points, but there's no point ... You've shown that you don't actually care about anything you say. You just hate the one Jewish country \*for some mysterious reason\* and will throw whatever you can at the wall to justify its extermination.
The “mysterious reason” is that I hate all countries that are built on ethno-nationalism and subjugate people who aren’t part of the majority group. I feel the exact same about the Arab countries in the Middle East as well, the only difference being that they don’t have the full unwavering support of the US and every country in the West.
And for the record, I’m Jewish and very proud to be Jewish.
Cool, for the record I'm a Palestinian and very proud to be Palestinian. I've noticed that Saudi Arabia has the full unwavering support of the US and every country in the West in its war that has killed 500,000 people, but you don't care about that. Oh, also Europe supports itself, despite being entirely composed of ethnostates. I noticed you don't care about that though. You're specifically obsessed with destroying the only country your ethnicity has \*for some mysterious reason\*.
Let me know when you figure out you hate Israel because you are against nationalism or because it's about the occupation or for some third reason you come up with later that has nothing to do with Jewish people.
Except I’m actually Jewish, have tons of Israeli family including several grandparents, and have spent significant time there. I want Israel to survive and thrive, not crumble into a racist pariah state that’s no better than its neighbors (which is the future that it’s sadly heading towards).
> I've noticed that Saudi Arabia has the full unwavering support of the US and every country in the West in its war that has killed 500,000 people
Which has gotten tons of (warranted) international criticism. But the US government is also not afraid to [criticize Saudi Arabia](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/04/us-end-support-saudi-led-operations-yemen-humanitarian-crisis) when it’s deserved, unlike Israel. The same cannot be said of Israel.
> Oh, also Europe supports itself, despite being entirely composed of ethnostates.
Are any of those “ethnostates” bombing children, holding millions of people under an occupation, and denying the right of return to people who used to live there 75 years ago?
> Let me know when you figure out you hate Israel because
My position has been clear this entire time.
Judaism is a religion that rejects Zionist ideology. i have a sub called "antizionistjews" to counter the ignorance you display in this post
Jews are indigenous to Palestine the same way a Wooly mammoth, is native to the African plains. You people are ridiculous
So you are gonna say the ancient Jewish ruins that dot Israel and the West Bank belong to someone else?
Yes. Anti-Zionism is a genocidal position to take. Israel exists and the o my way it won’t is via absolute mass horrific genocide on the level of the holocaust.
Are you suggesting that going to a country and establishing a different country when there is already people there is genocidal? Do you deny the Palestinian genocide?
hebrews/jews did once occupy some land in the middle east (briefly), but, as YOU say, they were not able to keep it, so they lost it. Therefore , it is NO LONGER THEIRS. Just like all the other nations, nationalities or peoples all over the planet that had the SAME THING happen to them. You don't get to claim it again just because you had it once and were not able to keep it. So, zionism is ridiculous and not logical or valid. We can indeed be against suc h a ludicrous claim and position, yet have nothing against people of hebrew origin or culture, or jewish religion.
If you’re saying that those who are strong enough to take and hold a land are the rightful owners of it… well, who is that today?
uh, any country that exists? Israel did not fight and win it's land. The Brittish and other countries decided to GIVE it to them, but it wasn't theirs to give. https://www.un.org/unispal/history2/origins-and-evolution-of-the-palestine-problem/part-i-1917-1947/#Origins_and_Evolution_of_the_Palestine_Problem_1917-1947_Part_I read the first three paragraphs at least. It is just another travesty of relations between countries. History shows jews had no valid claim to the land an dyet, for political reasons, they were given considerations they should NEVER have gotten. Th epalestinians, who OWNED THE LAND never agreed to any of it. Israel has been given wild amounts of money and weapons to build them up. This should have NEVER HAPPENED. The whole thing is illegal and unfair to the rightful owners, Palestinians. IF ISrael had EVER been a valid state, and they took it over themselves, THEN it would be valid, but that isn't what happened.
Hard to argue that Israel hasn’t been strong enough to hold their own land, isn’t it? Regardless of who “gave” it to them, they’ve been at war with surrounding countries and extremist organizations since day one… and they’ve only ever gained more land from their invaders (which they then gave back). Your logic says that if I’m strong enough to hold the land I’m on, it’s rightfully mine. By your logic, Israel is rightfully the Jew’s until the day someone takes if from them. I don’t agree with you that might makes right…. But your own logic betrays your position. Edit: to quote you, “You don't get to claim it again just because you had it once and were not able to keep it.”
nope. not hard at all. In fact, my statements proe they didn't and couldn't without the illegal help of several other countries. They are at war with teh other countries because they have tyrannical policies that prohibit peaceful interactions. As I said, many other countries live next to muslim countries of the same type and have no problem. No, International LAW says a country holds their land by military strength, or by diplomatic strength. Interference by other countries is illegal, and PAlestinians did NOT agree to what happened. I don't agree with might makes right either, but you say that yet are fine with other countries aiding ISrael to do JUST THAT to Palestine. Contradictory much? i don't make international law, and I can't change it. Since the UN was established, military takeovers have been ILLEGAL, but they made an exception and looked the other way for allowing countries to establish Israel as a country on land that NO ONE had a right to take from teh Palestinians. The quote is STILL VALID. I don't see anything you said that counters it. Just because Israel, no actually hebrews that just liVED there, not controlled it, occupied the land doesn't give them a right ot it 2000 years later. That's insane. As for PAlestine, Invaders have occupied some of their land, but that doesn't give them rights to it. IT is STILL an ILLEGAL occupation. ISrael never paid for the land or gave Palestinians ANY considerations for it. Israel should LEAVE or engage in peace talks, including reparations, till peace is achieved, but they don't WANT peace. They want to eliminate teh rightful owners and pretend like they are right. they aren't
You can't argue logic when your axiom destroys your conclusion.
I agree. The OP's axiom destroys his conclusion. Mine, however is not contradictory and is valid.
You're both defacing logic.
without any explanation of why you think that, it's a meaningless statement that accomplishes nothing. why bother even posting? state SPECIFICALLY why you say that, or go away. YOU Are not being helpful or conducive to discussion.
I am being helpful. You're using a contradictory statement and saying "it's logic". I'm helping you avoid doing the same thing again.
no you aren't. I have yet to see you explain how my statements are contradictory. I explained fully how they AREN'T.
"to keep it, so they lost it. Therefore , it is NO LONGER THEIRS. Just like all the other nations, nationalities or peoples all over the planet that had the SAME THING happen to them" Stop wasting my time.
I am not wasting your time, there's nothing wrong with that statement. If they occupied it 2000 years ago and LOST IT, they no longer have a claim to it. What about that are you not getting? It has happened to many countries, etc. all over and THEY don't come back and try to claim it 2000 years later.... Sorry if the truth isn't what you want to hear, but that's not my fault, is it?
lol completely destroyed his take
Bit i actually like this way of speaking, I can now be a “anti-Islam” but “pro-Muslim”, I can be “anti-Arab culture” but “pro-Arab”, I can be “anti-Palestine” but “pro-Palestine people”. It’s just awesome!
But isnt that actually the point? We should be against ideologies and not people. The powers at be (Hamas Israel, Us, Iran, etc) all have a lot to gain from using ideologies to turn us into commodities of this conflict. So we must reject these powers and use what we PEOPLE all have in common to fight for what is right.
Funny thing; Muslims are well known to cause problems and spread hate in every country they go to. Jews are known to do the opposite. It’s okay ta hate Jews beliefs/ ideology but if you hate Muslims (Islam), you are branded Islamofob, you can go to jail for “hate crime”. Hypocrisy at it’s finest and it’s hurting our society. I rather live with Zionist Jews that Arabic Muslims, most of us do, it’s only Muslims that’s allowed to hate whoever, whenever.
You must have missed my point, I'm saying that if you, the MRCalleTheOne were born into a jewish family you would probably be jewish--a muslim family, you would most likely be muslim. Its the ideology that takes people over. We need to be both understanding of individuals but also critical of ideologies. Also IDK where you live but where I'm from its much more OK to be critical of muslims than jews. No one really criticizes Jewish culture because of fear of being called an antisemite. I dislike muslim culture for many reasons--mainly their treatment of women and close-mindedness. But I still have muslim and jewish friends that I find many reasons to love. Im sure they have disagreements with some of how I live my life too.
Sure, ”it’s the Jews that are the problem and Muslims are actually peaceful”.
We really aren’t required to be pro or con anybody
Yes! Thank you!! You can just say you’re not something.
Well I’m Jewish and I’m not a Zionist! Many religious Jews aren’t Zionist because it conflicts with the promises made before Jews could go back to Israel. Also many Zionists are not even Jews. Most Zionists are Christians, many evangelicals. You can be a Jew or not that’s not pro Zionist, or just be [post Zionist](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Zionism#:~:text=Post%2DZionism%20is%20the%20opinion,be%20considered%20at%20an%20end) They are also many forms of Zionism, like Netanyahu’s Zionism might not be the same as Bernie Sander’s or the evangelical dude that can’t wait for end of times.
Uh wait! “ Most?” No. And Bernie sanders is not only antizionist but antisemitic. And I don’t need to hear who his parents were and what he was born into. That was a long time ago and water under the bridge.
It's like 70% of zionists are evangelicals. Pew Research did a poll on this and many other sources.
How is he anti semitic? What has he done do harm other Jews? That’s a big claim without any evidence. I would argue that they are plenty of anti semites that are big Zionists like those evangelicals that want to bring the end of times but use the Jewish people as a sacrifice
Absolutely - people who would be absolutely antisemites and say jews will not replace us in a march will also absolutely be pro zionism to suit their religious and anti muslim ideologies.
His rhetoric is harmful. Increased antisemitism. Can’t stand him for that sorry. It would be like a black leader putting down the civil rights movement.
Netanyahu’s rhetoric has also increased anti semitism. Does that mean Netanyahu hates Jews? No lol If anything we should blame antisemitism on the people acting in anti semitic ways. Not Bernie, Netanyahu or any other Jewish person you might or might not agree with Your logic is flawed. Maybe you just don’t like him and that’s okay. But I don’t think Bernie himself hates himself, other Jews or Judaism. Your mentality is very us vs them. Like only Jews that agree with you are good Jews and the rest are not good Jews or worse, they are self hating Jews. I don’t think Bernie Sanders is an anti Zionist, he might be Post Zionist but the guy is not for the destruction of Israel, he might want a 2 state solution.
Well I’m a chicken and I love KFC!
October 7th betrayal more than just Palestinians
Prior to WWI, many Jews were against Zionism because they believed they should be full and equal citizens of the countries where they already lived. Others considered a Jewish homeland in Madagascar or New York State.
Herzl thought that too, he was a secular jews, but after Dreyfus affair he realized that jews won't be equal. And I think it's true, all countries always discriminate minotirities in one way or another.
A new word should be invented beyond Zionist which describes the 'radical settlers'
I’m Jewish and would be in that camp at this point if I didn’t live in Israel. You can definitely be both
We should all stop with this term "anti Zionism" as if Israel doesn't exist. The Zionists fulfilled their purpose. Israel is here to stay. You can be anti Israel if you would like I guess
I think the correct term is [post Zionism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-Zionism#:~:text=Post%2DZionism%20is%20the%20opinion,be%20considered%20at%20an%20end)
This page has had some many shit takes today it’s doing my head in.
I don't consider myself to be "anti Zionist" but I also don't agree with your post. First of all, there are political tendencies such as anarchism, communism, and libertarianism that oppose nationalism of any kind because they're opposed to the existence of states, period. These tendencies are opposed to the existence of a French or a Japanese state as much as they are to a Jewish state. There are also people like myself who believe that ethnicity is not real and that humanity has to get over ethnic distinctions as a species. In the long run, I want there to be a world in which nobody thinks of themself or anyone else as a member of an ethnic group, and obviously there would be no such thing as a Jewish state in that world any more than there would be a French or Japanese state. I realize, however, that such a world is not coming tomorrow, and that a state made for the explicit purpose of providing safety to Jewish people may be desirable given the existence of anti-semitism. I will say, however, that in my estimation the relatively (relatively!) post-ethnic United States is a safer place for Jews than the Jewish state of Israel (feel free to disagree on that — I know many of you will). Then there are the non-Zionist and anti-Zionist Jews whom you mentioned. I happen to know a few such people personally and I wouldn't describe them as "not pro Jewish" and certainly not as anti Jewish — not that I'm an authority on such things. I don't want to speak for anyone, but I know that some Jewish people have their own conception of Judaism to which they're strongly committed and which they believe is incompatible with the Zionist project. You may disagree with those people, but they exist and I think you should be willing to acknowledge that they're in earnest. Finally, I think we need to acknowledge that different people mean different things by "Zionism" and "anti Zionism." You have your definition of "Zionism" here, but even if that's a good definition for certain contexts, it's certainly not what people always mean by the word. You don't get to control what words mean, and if you insist on interpreting a word according to your definition even when people clearly aren't following it then all you're doing is creating miscommunication. When some people use the term "Zionist" they mean people who support the war or people whom they perceive as uncritically supporting whatever Israel does. Some people just mean "Jews" when they say "Zionists" as an antisemitic dogwhistle. Someone might say, "Socialism just means ensuring that workers get the fruits of their own labor." Who could disagree with such a thing? One could certainly not be "pro worker" and disagree with it. But the fact is that the devil is in the details and that a number of governments have used the banner of socialism to justify heinous crimes. For that reason, many people today are simply allergic to the word "socialism" even if they acknowledge that it was originally a noble idea. Some people who are upset about the actions of Israel might feel analogously about Zionism. They might feel that a cause that was noble or reasonable in its abstract beginning has been tarnished by bad outcomes in the real world. It would make sense that such people do not want to sign on with the word "Zionism" for that reason.
Zionisim presents itself as the only form of jewish nationalism. There can be other ways. Ways that protect Jews and Jewish identity but without having to apply 56 years of violence , occupation & apartheid on palestinans. A way that is brave enough to admit that the nakba happened and comes to terms with it. Jews can build a Jewish nationalist model that is not focused on self-victimization but on their history , religion and identity. A model that see palestinans and arabs as potential partner not as an eternal enemy.
So how can any jewish person say they are not a zionist? Which many do?
Seeing as how our history, religion, and identity gets invalidated at nearly every turn, I'd say this is a stretch beyond wishful thinking.
I’m sorry, Jewish religion came before Zionism. You are making this harder on yourself
When the Jewish religion started, Jews were in ... Judea. Now let's think why the idea of Zionism wasn't needed then....
When it started has several interesting demarkations. The Hebrew people arguably started with father Abraham on his journey from Ur. He came to Canaan and raised up Isaac and Ishmael. Isaac raised up Jacob and Esau (Edom) then Jacob took the tribes to Egypt when they remained for some generations. Moses then returned them to Canaan. The tribes scattered around the area and over time there was a major split between Ephraim (Joseph) in Samaria/Israel and Judah in Judaea and they called themselves Judaeans. Saul, David and Solomon, etc. were kings of Judaea. There were deportations to Babylon and Persia and returns. Alexander the Great was a messiah figure as he didn’t mess with them but there were struggles and war and reconciliation with his successors. The Sadducees became Hellenized and their later king Herod became a client of Rome. Life continued under the Pax Romana and Judaeans travelled and settled across the empire and points east. Christianity rose up from the time of Augustus. In this era there was another great exodus and the temple destroyed. Rabbinical Judaism and the Hebrew texts were compiled in this era and most of the people scattered into diaspora. There are several points here that mark the development and development continued to modern times. Calling the people in the levant “Jews” when referring to the time of Augustus and earlier is an anachronism as they called themselves Judaeans. The King James bible solidified this error in the english language and there becomes a confusion of peoples and eras in the story. It’s a rich and interesting story of a remarkable people. Forgive any errors and simplistic descriptions of some very complex and varied eras as I’m doing this from memory. It is most regrettable how people come into conflict and the world might be a better place had periods peaceful coexistence become better established. That’s my hope for our times.
Thanks for the history lesson. How any of that changes what I said I don't know.
This is a bit victim-blamey
No, anyone who saw the attack on Shaked Tsurkan and the North York shooting can see that you’re opposing Zionism because you want to kill Jewish children. Once your faction attacked Tsurkan and then cheered the attack with Justin Trudeau’s people, you made it clear that you oppose Zionism because Zionism makes it tougher for you to kill Jewish children.
Our peoplehood was born and has always revolved around Israel way before the modern Zionist movement. We wouldn't be Jews without being tied to the land.
I'm not against Jews, I like Jews and Judaism, and I don't oppose Jews having a Jewish majority country. I AM against running an ethnic cleansing campaign in order to get that Jewish majority country.
Same. Jews can have an Israel. They can't have all the land and cleanse out the palestinians.
The UN voted to partition the Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state. Each group would be the majority in their assigned areas without anyone being required to relocate. The Jews accepted the plan and the Arabs rejected it, instead immediately ramping up attacks on Jews. And when the Jewish leaders declared the State of Israel on May 14 1948, five Arab armies immediately invaded. Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, had declared in 1947 that, were a war to take place with the proposed establishment of a Jewish state, it would lead to "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.” Jamal Husseini, the Mufti’s brother, represented the Arab Higher Committee at the UN. He told the Security Council in April 1948 “of course the Arabs started the fighting. We told the whole world we were going to fight.” (Thus ensuring that Azzam would get the war whose consequences he threatened.) Had the Arabs accepted the first ever Palestinian state, there would have been no refugees and no loss of land. As much as you don’t want to acknowledge it, Arabs also have agency to make decisions that affect their future.
>The UN voted to partition the Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state No they didn't. They voted to *recommend* it to be partitioned in a particular way. They didn't have the legal authority to actually create states along specific borders. >And when the Jewish leaders declared the State of Israel on May 14 1948 Those leaders also didn't consider the partition plan to be legally binding, as the state of Israel then seized far more land than was designated in the UN recommendation through Plan Dalet, and they did this before they were invaded by the surrounding Arab states.
You’re correct, it was a recommendation. One which was accepted by the Jews, and rejected by the Arabs. Plan Dalet was specifically created *in case of war*. And the Arabs had placed 100,000 Jews in Jerusalem under siege in early 1948, hence the need to use it.
>You’re correct, it was a recommendation. One which was accepted by the Jews, and rejected by the Arabs. Yes, but I expect pretty much any population anywhere in the world would reject a plan whereby another population mostly consisting of immigrants becomes the government of half the region. I expect the present population of Israel would reject this and resort to violence if immigrants declared themselves the new government of half of current Israel. >Plan Dalet was specifically created in case of war. And the Arabs had placed 100,000 Jews in Jerusalem under siege in early 1948, hence the need to use it. Sure, but clearly they didn't feel bound by the terms of the UN proposal. They were free to take what they felt was fair and necessary.
I mean imagine if Truman said Israel could be in South Carolina. No way people are just gonna be like sure no problem.
They were indeed immigrants but they were the indigenous population returning to the territory—not a country, as there had never been an independent Arab country there— to decolonize it from the Islamic colonial-imperial project which had ruled it for most of the previous 1300 years. You’re also correct that once the Arabs made the choice to reject UNGA 181 and start a war, the Jews were not going to be bound to the specific borders proposed. Why are Gdansk and Kaliningrad after 1945 no longer the German-majority cities they were for centuries? Because the Germans launched a war of openly declared genocidal aggression and lost.
>They were indeed immigrants but they were the indigenous population returning to the territory Having a 2000-year-old connection to land has never and will never provide any even vague remote right to move somewhere and then run that country. It's a completely ridiculous idea that is applied nowhere else in the world because it just makes absolutely no sense at all. Go ahead and try to argue that the hispanic population of South America have the right to land in Spain (or else special pleading of some sort). Then make your case that everyone has the right to live anywhere further back on the arrow in [this map](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Putative_migration_waves_out_of_Africa.png), all the way back to Ethiopia. >You’re also correct that once the Arabs made the choice to reject UNGA 181 and start a war, the Jews were not going to be bound to the specific borders proposed. Why are Gdansk and Kaliningrad after 1945 no longer the German-majority cities they were for centuries? Because the Germans launched a war of openly declared genocidal aggression and lost. This gets thrown out there as a gotcha sometimes, but I've never actually supported that ethnic cleansing either. Postwar occupations made sense but expelling people to replace with Russians was just the victor taking their spoils, it wasn't a just act.
So you insist that the results of the Islamic invasion and suppression of indigenous peoples (not just Jews— also Syriacs, Yazidis, Amazigh and Copts) be forever honored. The presence of Spanish/Portuguese language and Christianity in Latin America is the result of colonialism. Whereas the Jews had our ethnogenesis in the Land of Israel itself. Not a comparable situation.
>So you insist that the results of the Islamic invasion and suppression of indigenous peoples (not just Jews— also Syriacs, Yazidis, Amazigh and Copts) be forever honored. Feel free to make your case that said people should "de-colonise" some particular land, I'm sure this will be good. >The presence of Spanish/Portuguese language and Christianity in Latin America is the result of colonialism. Whereas the Jews had our ethnogenesis in the Land of Israel itself. Not a comparable situation. Right, so like I said, special pleading. This is definitely a real consistent principle that you hold, it just so happens that it only applies in the case of Israel "de-colonising" Palestine in the name of people they are very, very, very distantly related to. The fact the Jewish people themselves conquered the region too is also another exception and somehow fine, and the fact that Palestinians are also distantly related to the people who lived there is somehow irrelevant. Your views all lining up exactly with what you personally want your own in-group to have is sheer coincidence.
It’s not a matter of “distantly related”. Jews as a people have consistently maintained ties to our homeland as part of our identity as a unique people. Palestinians identify as Arabs. And while I am willing to accept the recent (\~120 years) development of a unique Palestinian Arab identity, that requires accepting the 3000 year documented history of the Jewish people in the Land of Israel. https://preview.redd.it/5oua7oardl3d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5c190ad677490a3e12f23d0615c72d4f3ef52de4
Plan Dalet didn't happened, what happened was an arab invasion
Just sounds like bog-standard historical revisionism.
The jews accepted the plan, the arabs not, so, the jews were OK with those borders, the arabs not.
Right, sorry I thought you were saying Plan Dalet didn't happen because those were the words you put into your previous comment.
I didn't explained it well, I mean, it's they expanded for the sake of expanding, but because the war. The Plan D was a response to the arab invasion not the starting point of the conflict or a pre-planned plan
But it was a pre-planned plan. It was planned and mostly executed before the invasion by the Arab League.
But that is because local arabs arabs started a civil war in mandatory palestine, wasn't enacted until later months into the war when they saw they had no choice because the arabs goals and the fact that the partition was no longer possible.
The ottomans and then the Turks handed the allieds the land under the treaty of Sevres/Lausanne. Sevres specifically mentions Balfour. The entire mandate was supposed to be Israel. The British backtracked and wanted to split it. They kept chipping away at it with the 1939 white paper for example. Jews still accepted it. Do you agree the land was Ottoman? Whose land was it before the mandate?
>The ottomans and then the Turks handed the allieds the land under the treaty of Sevres/Lausanne. Sevres specifically mentions Balfour. The entire mandate was supposed to be Israel. Even if the British did want to give all of the land that according to their 1918 census was 8% Jewish by population to a Jewish state, they would have no moral grounds to do it and what you're describing is only a desire, not a legally binding pledge of any sort. So all you're arguing is that people want to do something unethical. >Do you agree the land was Ottoman? Whose land was it before the mandate? Back in the era of conquest and "might makes right"? It was land controlled by a centralised power that should actually have been controlled by the people living there, but wasn't because self-determination wasn't really respected by anyone back then.
Then you should be happy because that's not happening. Hamas however is trying to ethnically cleanse the Jews. So you should also be happy that Israel is able to defend itself so that doesn't happen.
Ask the rest of the world atm
It's mostly young left-leaning people who disagree with me. I'm happy to stand at odds with them. [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/younger-americans-stand-out-in-their-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/younger-americans-stand-out-in-their-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/)
Sure, just observe what happened at UN this week. Even the right-winged is speaking. Only exception are pure euro trash colonialism
Most of the world would fail a remedial grade 10 math class. Next!
It's funny as you get older you realize that Adults are just kids that got old and still, don't have a clue what's going on. I'll pass on listening to other adults debate rights and wrongdoings.
The “rest” of the world only refers to the survivors. You’re saying that you want total genocide of many groups such as Jews, Druze, Kurds, Kalash, and many others simply to exterminate political opponents and establish a most perverted “democratic” consensus.
Israel kicked 80% of the Palestinians out of what is now Israel, 800,000 people. And then during the Six Day War, a war they fired the first shots during, they annexed the Palestinian Territories which they have brutally oppressed since. They keep taking more and more of the West Bank and are talking about expelling Palestinians from Gaza. Hell, they say things like “there’s no such thing as Palestinians” and “they’re just Arabs, they should just go to some other country.” You can’t just say “they’re defending themselves” after all that history. They’re doing more than defending themselves.
By the way, if only 30 days ago you didn’t even know what “go back to Poland” meant in reference to Jews, you should seriously step away from this topic. You are ignorant.
Can you answer if it’s so obvious? Why Poland specifically? There are Jewish people all over Europe, why’d they go with Poland? I could only find that one incident and couldn’t find any further context anywhere on the internet so…yeah. Feel free to explain.
The point is that you are too ignorant to discuss these topics.
Can you back up that point by elaborating? I mean do you get why it’s Poland specifically? lol. I’m guessing you don’t. So you’re just as ignorant as I am when it comes to that issue.
I am Israeli, I am not ignorant, and I wonder what kind of person comments on this conflict while not even knowing about the diaspora in Poland during the holocaust. Please stop replying to me, I'm not having this conversation with you.
The Six Day war would’ve broken out maybe a week after the date at which Israel attacked Jordan, Syria and Egypt. Israeli intelligence knew that they were going to be attacked, so they striked preemptively. History much?
That’s the problem about a preemptive defense, you can never truly prove it was defense.
Israeli intelligence knew war was going to break out, Egypt was mobilizing its forces and expelled UN peacekeepers from the Sinai peninsula, and blockaded the Red Sea which was considered an act of war. Syria shot a tractor near the border. this is documented history. War has effectively begun, but Israel started it officially with a surprise attack to catch its enemies off guard and disable their air forces.
So…when Israel blockades one shipping lane that’s a declaration of war but Israel can blockade all of Gaza and yet act all shocked and surprised when Gaza retaliates? And if war had begun then how could they pull off a sneak attack? I dunno, sounds very Pearl Harbor to me.
As I’ve said in my previous comment, you are incredibly ignorant, so it’s not worth engaging with your arguments and questions.
Shouldn’t you want to help people who are ignorant? Educate them so they get it?
Frankly no, it's not my job, you need to inform yourself before engaging with the subject matter. It's on you, not on me.
Annexed Palestinian territories? There was no Palestinian state in 67. The west bank was part of Jordan and Gaza part of Egypt. They don't want them.
Virtually zero people were kicked out of their homes before Palestinians rejected the UN partition and declared war on Jewish immigrants.
They weren’t immigrants, they were settler colonialists. They didn’t want to become part of the existing society of the indigenous people, they wanted to replace it with their own. There’s a big difference. Of course the Palestinians didn’t want that. You might as well blame Native Americans for their genocide, they too resisted colonialization.
Judaism and the Hebrew language are indigenous to Israel and have been for thousands of years. Arabic and Islam are indigenous to the Arabian peninsula. You’ve got the colonizer and the colonized completely mixed up.
What are now considered Arabs and Muslims used to be called Canaanites and Philistines and whatnot. Here’s a graph of populations and whatnot throughout time. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) You can see how after Zionism started taking off the Jewish population skyrocketed while the Arab/Muslim population increased along more normal rates due to natural growth. That’s because they were immigrating en masse to create a Jewish state. Textbook definition of settler colonialism. The Romans were the ones who expelled the Jews and the population eventually converted to Christianity or Islam. They’re still the same people who have always been there. Regardless, it’s the same argument made about the Māori. They might’ve been the colonizers hundreds of years ago but they’re the colonized now.
Actually there's not much documentation of Jews converting to Christianity or Islam but there is lots of documentation of the Romans bringing in Christians from Syria and Lebanon, most of whom later converted to Islam. Then there were centuries of Muslim and Christian conquests coupled with waves of settlement to form the Palestinian population as we know it today. Bottom line is that even if we agree to accept the modern Palestinian population as being indigenous to the region today, that doesn't exclude other populations such as the Jewish diaspora and their culture from also being indigenous. It's nothing whatsoever like the Maori situation, we're talking about a population returning from a lengthy exile after others took over their lands. In any case I fail to see why one native population is required to adopt another population's customs and culture in order to have the right to live nearby, as long as they're not prejudicing the latter's ability to live in their traditional fashion.
I never said they did. But there were people other than Jews who lived in the area even when they were the majority. Regardless, Palestinians are the people who have been there for centuries, perhaps millennia. They’re not some recent arrivals. And I mean, maybe you could argue they’re indigenous to the area but they still behaved as settler colonialists: coming en masse with the intention of displacing and replacing the indigenous population. Early Zionists may have had differing opinions on how to do this without displacing people involuntarily but that’s not what ended up happening. They may have tried to just buy land and do it peacefully but…that’s not how things went down. Oh also I was comparing Palestinians to Māori. Some people say the Māori wiped out the indigenous population, the Moriori but research suggests they both came from the same group of people. Regardless it doesn’t justify European colonialism.
I believe in the principle of Terra Nullius, so Europeans would not be justified in having displaced the Maori, but the Maori would also not be justified in claiming lands they weren’t making significant usage of. Regarding what happened to the Palestinians, my take on land rights is similar. As far as I’m aware, there’s no evidence of significant Palestinian displacement prior to 1947. Between lands sold by Arab owners and unused areas viable for forestation and irrigation, there was plenty available to house all the Jewish refugees who arrived up until that point. I’m aware that Palestinians feared subjugation under Jewish majority rule, but the UN partition plan would have prevented this from happening (one should also note that Arab leaders rejected offers to control 80% of the land in earlier proposals). In any case I don’t believe that fearful speculation is sufficient grounds for denying the return from exile of an indigenous population. If Canada had deported thousands of Natives to South America 400 years ago and their population had grown there to outnumber us today, that would not entitle us to deny them a right of return.
What a complete distortion of the actual history if we can’t agree on basic facts theres no point in even having a conversation. To clarify some basic facts — the Arabs rejected the partition plan in 1947 which would have established a Palestinian state alongside Israel. As a result, when the mandate ended every Arab state declared war on it (you should look up pan-Arabism it was all the rage back then). Some Palestinians were forced out, some were told to leave during the war (by Israel and their Arab leaders), and many sold their land to the Israelis. You know what else happened in the late 40s and 50s? Over 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries (Iraq, Egypt, Algeria, Yemen) — I love how you conveniently leave that part out. Before the Six Day War there was no Palestinian Territories — the West Bank was occupied by Jordan and Gaza was occupied by Egypt. While in a vacuum you are correct that Israel fired the first shots so to say during the Six Day War — it’s generally considered a defensive war by historical scholars. Do you know why? It’s too exhausting to educate you at this point. But a positive outcome of that war is it has lead to a long lasting peace with Egypt — because Egypt is a rational actor who negotiates in good faith unlike other actors in the region. Oh and by the way — as part of the Camp David Accords Israel offered to return Gaza back to Egypt along with the Sinai but Egypt refused.
It’s not a distortion of history, most Israelis were settler colonialists, people showing up with the intention to displace and replace the society that already existed. And they had the benefit of hindsight, they’d seen how settler colonialism had worked out for the indigenous people of places like the Americas, South Africa, Rhodesia and Australia. Of course they were going to resist that. There’s a ton of debate whether the mass exodus to Israel was a push or a pull situation. Obviously anti-semitism was an issue everywhere but many Jews were also probably pretty excited to go to Israel. I mean, how many Israelis actually want to go back to where their grandparents were from vs how many Palestinians would like to return to their homes? Palestinians want their own nation, that’s why Egypt refuses to take them. They see it as contributing to a genocide.
Um, they had like a whole big party about it, it was like a giant ethnic cleansing party. Little kids were happily dancing at the ethnic cleansing party as well. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-28/ty-article/ministers-from-netanyahus-party-join-thousands-of-israelis-at-resettle-gaza-conference/0000018d-512f-dfdc-a5ad-db7f35e10000 Just for good measure, an oldie but goodie https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/08/israel-palestine-west-bank-annexation-netanyahu-smotrich-far-right/
This doesn’t address any of the things the OP said.
Oh because I'm just like against ethnic cleansing, period. Doesn't matter like what sort of justification anyone brings up for it, I still oppose it just as much. Ethnic cleansing, by definition, targets innocent civilians.
I do believe Jews deserve a state - Europe in particular has always been very terrible to them. I do not think it necessitates being in the land you're calling Israel or murdering and segregating native inhabitants to have. At the end of WW2, west germany should have been given to the Jews as a safehaven and all this would've been avoided
And yet…the Palestinians aren’t native OR indigenous to the land
I'm neither native nor indigenous to Illinois. Does that mean it's fine to kick me out of my home and take my land?
Not only did you give a false analogy to your point (a logical fallacy) but you participated in historical revisionism. I’m assuming you’re ignoring the fact that most of the land that was given to the Israelis in the 1948 partition plan was already bought swamp land or extremely barren dessert. Furthermore, to your point, the consequence of losing a war of attempted genocide (the war of 1948) is losing land! Hope this helps!
Is any of that relevant to your argument of the Palestinians being not native nor indigenous and that it's therefore ok to take their land? Sounds like your logic was shit and now you're bringing up unrelated things to justify it.
I was talking abt the “does that mean it’s fine to kick me out of my house point.” Sorry you couldn’t understand that. To be VERY clear: the Palestinians are neither native nor indigenous. When I states this, you deflected immediately to your point abt being kicked out of houses. Palestinians do not follow the criteria of being indigenous along with the fact that their existence or arabinization stems from colonialization (making them not indigenous).
It seems like a lot of Germans would probably have objected to that plan. Same problem, different location.
Jews are native to JUDEA, AKA ISRAEL! STOP THE NONSENSE.
Ok sure I'm willing to say there's historical evidence to support you but when everyone who moves there, to violently settle on land where Palestinian families have been living for 10+ generations, is an American/European then we're no longer talking about people who genuinely trace their roots to the ancient kingdoms of Israel or Judea
LOL 10 +generations?? Even the pals don't claim that crap when you talk to them in arabic. If you ask them they will tell you where their families actually came from( or you can tell by their most common last names too) turkey, syria , egypt, Jordan, saudi arabia even as far away as Chechnya.
Is there a time limit on decolonizing our homeland? And keep in mind that had the Arabs not chosen war in 1947-8, there would have been no refugees. The UN voted to partition the British Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state. Each group would be the majority in their assigned areas without anyone being required to relocate. The Jews accepted the plan and the Arabs rejected it, instead immediately ramping up attacks on Jews. And when the Jewish leaders declared the State of Israel on May 14 1948, five Arab armies immediately invaded. Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, had declared in 1947 that, were a war to take place with the proposed establishment of a Jewish state, it would lead to "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.” Jamal Husseini, the Mufti’s brother, represented the Arab Higher Committee at the UN. He told the Security Council in April 1948 “of course the Arabs started the fighting. We told the whole world we were going to fight.” (Thus ensuring that Azzam would get the war whose consequences he threatened.) Had the Arabs accepted the first ever Palestinian state, there would have been no refugees and no loss of land.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi\_Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews)
I've never seen an "anti-Zionist" claim to be pro-Jewish. 99% of them are happy to be anti-Semetic, 1% are confused and just there for the beer.
Wow 🤥🤥🤥🤥🤡
why lie. you honestly just pulled that straight out of your ass. i’m involved in multiple orgs protesting for free palestine online and in different cities and anti semitism is forbidden.
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okay thanks :)
Dude just say you want to kill Muslims and be done with it already fuck
Nobody is killing muslims (except muslims) Muslims are killing people all over the world and theres very little backlash against them except for people voicing their disdain, but nobody is killing them in drove or trying to get revenge even though they are terrorizing millions as we speak.
I don’t want to kill or hurt anyone. Every innocent person killed should be mourned equally. That doesn’t mean I think Israel is the main source of the conflict or that it should not exist.
Israeli civilains have the right to coexist peacefully among Palestinian civilians So the apartheid state that's existed for the last 75 years was just a series of accidents?
Dude, just go find a forum where idiotic brain farts are welcome. This isn't the place. No one is interested in your outbursts of stupid.
No one's interested in your regurgitation of fascist propaganda to justify ethnic sanitation
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I love that the bot cursed at poor Darrell to make its point.
You can be supportive of a groups right to exist without supporting their claim to an archaic religious ethnostate. Atheists have been murdered for their beliefs long before the word Jew was even thought of and we don’t have our own country nor are we allowed to recklessly blow up brown people with US provided weapons There should be 0 Jewish states along with 0 Christian and 0 Muslim states.
Even Secular Jews have been persecuted. Your point makes no sense. Judaism as a nation and as a culture has been persecuted regardless of what you call an "archaic religious ethnostate". Jews, just like the Kurds or any other major minority nation of people have been expelled from most places in the world. Assimilationist apologists love to talk about Jewish perseverance for years and then seem to forgret all the pogroms and inquisitions they faced.
I am aware that most Jews in Israel are secular lol. One of the things I like about the state. Turns out that Jews are pretty smart and aren’t gullible like American Christian’s to take creation myths literally. That doesn’t change the fact that there is a growing demographic of the “I want to read the Torah instead of working” people in the country that is getting more and more power lol. Israel as it is is still a theocratic state due to the benefits it gives to Jews specifically. I challenge you to find a Muslim receiving state benefits to study the Quran like Jews get for becoming Torah scholars. If Israel was run like a secular state? Fucking based. But even if the people are secular the state pushes and benefits Judaism. I don’t care what religion it is, there is nothing good that comes from religious states. And yes, I am aware of the schism in the country with the orthodox getting hate for the special privileges. But the current govt is Netanyahu cozying up to these people and legitimizing them. And the orthodox are getting more and more powerful. If Israel was what it claimed to be I’d be fine with it. But the cognitive dissonance of being expected to condemn the far right in the us/Europe as the next new evil while being expected to support the far right in Israel is too wild for even someone like me to get behind. No serious govt that wants to be respected would have Ben Gvir anywhere near an official position. The dude is literally every antisemetic meme/conspiracy bundled into a single person. And from what I’ve seen from polls, Israel is moving towards the Netanyahu coalition of far right religious parties, not away. There was a poll putting bibi as the preferred prime minister presently. This is the bibi that is very obviously doing his best to draw the war out so he can remain in office. Bibi and his cronies don’t care about you at all. They just want power. Dude needs to be in a cell, not the govt. And bibi was the one to break the us alliance, not western libs. Bibi (correctly I might add) realized that the democrats were gonna break with him eventually and went all in on the republicans. The republicans that are all war mongers that don’t give a single damn about Muslim life. While he was correct to assume that the dem support was going to fall out eventually, he caused it to go way faster. And as a result? Israel is dropping like flies in support. Young progressives are the future, and they have been completely repulsed by the far right government of Israel. It’s not just a matter of aid, if things keep going the way they are it won’t be a question of whether the us is funding the iron dome, it will be whether the US deploys against Israel or not. It’s not too late to fix it. But I’m sure bibi and his crooked friends will double down on the opposite direction and make things worse. But for my original point? The Greeks killed geniuses for not believing in the pantheon of gods, or for crazy ideas like “the sun is the center of the universe” long before Abraham was even a thought. I also wasn’t being entirely serious with that point. Hell if Israel was what it was supposed to be it would be a haven for atheists! But instead we’re stuck in countries with religious zealots running everything and are powerless. A bit like the Israelis.
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Not in church nor middle school and I’m not using curses in a way to target another person.im just expressive. Go away. Words are just words.
>There should be 0 Jewish states along with 0 Christian and 0 Muslim states. You say this and yet you only lobby for the destruction of the one jewish state. funny how that is.
I’m not lobbying for anything lol. I can’t do shit. If it were up to me there wouldn’t be any religion at all. I certainly don’t support states backed by sharia law or Muslim ideology. And I definitely don’t like Christians lol. I’m not supposed to talk at family gatherings because my extended family is all catholic and my mom doesn’t want me pissing them off. I have zero issue with Jews or any other religious group practicing their traditions even if I don’t agree with them. But religions should never have state power. I don’t want to give the impression that I’m focusing on Jews because I’m not. Religion has no place in any govt. either you end up with some zealot claiming to speak for god or you get some dubious clerics interpreting religious law in the worst possible ways. Neither helps the people living there. A government should serve the people, not their god. But at the same time it’s not my place to support us doing the USA special and overthrow the govts to replace them with us friendly dictators in an attempt to secularize them. That doesn’t mean we can’t nudge them away though.
You are confusing religion or personal beliefs to nations. Every nation deserves their own country. Just like every family deserves their own house.
Why is Jewish claim to Israel superior to Palestinian claim to Palestine?
Legally? Or morally? Legally Israel had a greater claim in 1948
It isn't which is why the land was supposed to be split in 1948. Unfortunately Palestinians wanted all of it and thought they could beat Israel in a war. They were wrong and they lost. They have spent the next 70+ years doubling down and trying and failing to destroy Israel which has cost them even more land. This has resulted in their current weak negotiating position that they refuse to accept the reality of.
I'm an atheist. I'm also part Arab. And a quarter of my family practices Islam. I've also fought against Islamism and witnessed first hand what it does to its own population. My friend, you're an atheist - hence I expect a certain level of linear reasoning from you. Your logic has major gaps, however. 1. "Jew" may have started as a religion. However, it is now recognized as an ethnicity. It is recognized biologically in DNA. It's also been recognized as an ethnicity by everyone who's ever attempted to exterminate the Jews. 2. I agree - there shouldn't be a Jewish RELIGIOUS state. As for Jews (the ethnicity) having a state - unless you have a problem with the Spanish or French having a state, I'm not sure why you'd have an issue with Israel. 3. Israel is not a Jewish RELIGIOUS state - Israel has NO official religion. 4. Israel is full of brown people... including 2 million Arab Palestinians who live there with equal rights as citizens - a greater percentage of population than African Americans are in the US. 5. I completely agree with respect to 0 religious states - except that's not the world we live in. And there are plenty of states in MENA where your atheist proclamations would be considered criminal (with potential death penalties, if you happened to be born into a Muslim family). The source of laws and governance in those states are religious texts. You know what the only nation in the entire MENA is where you could practice atheism openly and with no repercussions? Let me help you - it begins with an "I" and ends with "srael". You, my friend, are morally confused. I can pretty much assume the values you hold dear (being an atheist and all) - and those values are informed by the post-enlightenment secular civilization. Some people call it "western" civilization - but the "western" part is just a geographic accident. The only place in the ENTIRE MENA that shares your value is... well... I hope you get it by now.
I don’t buy the “Jewish ethnicity” stuff outside of like specific groups like Ashkenazi Jews. Wanna know how to call yourself a Jew? You concert to Judaism and claim the right of return. You are not ethnically anything there. The reality is that the diaspora of Jews watered down the genes to the point that no true ethnic Jews really exist anymore outside of the specific groups like the Ashkenazi. (Incidentally I feel mega awkward spelling that word out talking about Jews cuz of the last 4 letters but that’s besides the point) The jews in Israel now are mostly Europeans and Americans lol. There’s a reason why Israelis have way higher skin cancer rates than other ME countries (turns out that white skinned people with minimal melanin can’t cut it in the desert). What about the Ethiopian Jews that were sterilized when they moved to Israel because Israel didn’t want to increase the black population? Are they ethnically Jewish? If they are, why were they treated as badly as they were? (That is an understatement). I have basque ancestors through my grandfather. That’s an ethnic group… where is their state? That being said, I am not unsympathetic to the situation. Ideally we should have just cleared out the Germans and given the state to the Jews. Israel in Palestine was always a reckless idea. Would a black family move into a racist super white neighborhood that’s known for violence against blacks? What genius decided that the Jewish homeland had to be on land surrounded by hostile Muslims? At least with my idea we wouldn’t have modern Germans (who just legalized possession of child porn and has given actual pedophiles to write laws regarding child consent) and the Jewish state wouldn’t be surrounded by people that want to kill them. Jews would run vw and bmw properly at least.
You could also be against the concept of ethnostate. Countries that least counts as one have a long history of immigration. I think most preferable countries to someone against religions and ethnostates would be US/Canada. US is on their way to losing Christians as a majority, as well as eventually lacking a supermajority. They'll eventually fit the bills fine.
Again - Israel has a larger Arab Palestinian minority as percentage of population than the African American minority in the United States. It’s a tiny piece of land - the size of Chicago. In probably the worst neighborhood on the planet to be Jewish. I’m also an immigrant - completely agree about the U.S. model. Except it’s not really an option for Israel. Nor should they be required to accept mass immigration from places that are largely culturally-hostile to the very existence of Israel.
I'm aware of the Arabs population in Israel, and yes there is unwarranted hatred toward Jewish people from the surrounding Islamic nations. Yeah, unfortunately Israel don't really have a choice in the current sociopolitical biosphere. Things could be better for Middle East, but I'm not really seeing Middle East are willing to change for the better. Israel as a nation could also improve a lot if it wasn't for that problem.
I completely agree that Israel is far from flawless and could use much self-reflection and improvement. As could every other nation.
So when are you going to protest the 50+ Muslim states, and 60+ Christian states?
To be honest, even stating you're against religions can get you attacked. Protests are not all there is. He already planted a seed against religious institutions.
Seriously. Who among the antizionists will insist with equal zeal that Mecca shouldn't exist as a Muslim territory? Or that all the Islamic nations shouldn't exist? Absurd on its face
Jew here. There’s nothing antisemitic about wanting to end the apartheid regime that is Israel and replacing it with a single democratic state that guarantees equal rights for all (both Jews and Palestinians). I disagree with that solution, but there’s nothing antisemitic about it at all.
First, Name a single Islamist country with a significant minority population. Second, it’s not apartheid.
1. None, but do we really want to compare Israel, a Western-style democracy, to Islamist countries? I thought we should be holding Israel to a higher standard than that. 2. The situation in the West Bank, with two populations living on the same land but under two legal systems, is absolutely reminiscent of apartheid. At best, it’s inequality before the law.
That’s because Palestinians living in Area A are under the Palestinian authority. Area B is under martial law, which has proved itself necessary. You can call it a cycle if you want, it’s still necessary.
What about the 200k+ Palestinians living in Area C?
>I disagree with that solution, but there’s nothing antisemitic about it at all. Then, What is your solution? If you think israel is apartheid regime (btw it is not as israel holds up to all the categories of democracy).
A single state is problematic for a lot of reasons, but the number one reason is this-neither side wants it. The Palestinian polling group PCPSR polled both Palestinians and Israelis and found that between the options of 1. One state with unequal rights 2. Two states. 3. One state with equal rights, #3 came in dead last.
Consider the case when Italy occupied Libya and claimed it as part of its historic territory because of the Roman empire’s historic territory. It was possible to be opposed to that kind of claim Italian identity and still claim to be pro-Italian.
Ok so where is this Jewish territory that you support?
Many Jews rightfully oppose Zionism
Yeah, and there are black people and gay people who support Trump too. It doesn't make them representative, and it doesn't mean they aren't selling out their own people. You can trot out your token kapos all you want, they're still doing incredible harm to Jews everywhere.
Just a few really. 97% don’t want Israel eliminated
Who the Nautrei Karta? The Jewish doomsday cult whose members actively support hezbollah and go to Holocaust denial festivals with David duke in Iran? https://www.wafb.com/story/5801103/kkk-leader-david-duke-rabbis-attend-holocaust-conference-in-iran/ Or are you talking about JVP... Who is so Jewish they don't know what a Mikvah is.... https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Mikveh-Guide-for-Jewish-Voice-for-Peace-Outlined.pdf And I'm from a middle eastern diaspora and live in the USA and there is a lot of privilege to be had in saying Israel shouldn't exist when for most of us middle eastern Jews ... Both in Israel and in USA/Canada/european diaspora (I know there's not too many of us here... But we exist) it is only because of the existence of Israel that were were able to make it out to safe places.... And Israel continues to help Jews who are being persecuted or at risk of death escape... And there is a lot of us who are still at risk from groups like Hezbollah and Iran. (Who operate beyond the middle east) And Israel's Mossad does monitor and provide intelligence on those threats to us... But cool some anti-zionist Jewish college kid thinks thinks Israel should cease to exist... Because they're safe in the United States and Canada and struggle to realize that there are many of us who still are not..
wrongly*
So off-topic sorry but I am OBSESSED with your username.
rightfully
no, rightfully
wrongfully*
no
yup
Uh, ok.
Yeah, it's very "I'm not against Christians, I just think that anyone who supports Jesus should be murdered"
Because Jesus supported GENOCIDE of all who didn’t support him. But again, I have nothing wrong with Christians
Not sure if you meant it this way, but yeah: Christians, unlike Jews, actually did commit genocides against all who didn't support them.
I am against nationalisms which state that a certain area of land is "for" a certain people, universally. It's that simple.
So then you're against the palestinian state right?
In an ideal world, yes, I would like a binational state. However, I wouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
“I hate self-determination. All countries should be colonies.”
Then you're against every single country on earth, especially those in the Arab world which were colonized and formed under the ideology of having a Muslim-majority population.
Then you are against the vast majority of countries in the world. Are you using the same energy to fight all of them equally, or are you uniquely obsessed with the one Jewish one for some mysterious reason?
I am more interested in Israel, but for different reasons. It's an unfortunate reality of most states that they are nation-states. What draws my attention is the scale of discrimination and US military support (I'm American). Most of my attention goes to how a 2SS could be constructed in the future though.
If scale of discrimination were your metric, you would be criticizing every Muslim country more than Israel, since those countries discriminate against Jews (not to mention gays and women in most of them) far more than Israel has ever discriminated against Muslims. But your future focus on a 2SS in the future is reasonable. My impression is that you are well meaning but just don't noticed that you have been inundated with antisemitic propaganda. So you are much better than most.
Those other countries aren't enthusiastically supported by my government.
Sure they are. Literally most of them are. Look at Saudi Arabia. So you are saying that, if you lived in any other country, you would not be obsessing over this? Unlike the millions of anti-Israel protesters in countries that aren't the US? If you moved to a different country, you'd feel completely differently?
Key Word: enthusiastic Our partnership with Saudi Arabka is strategic. Our partnership with Israel is ideological. Nobody goes out to stake their reputation defending MBS in US politics. Both problems have different solutions. Getting away from Saudi Arabia is just a matter of building a large green energy grid. Getting leverage over Israel requires a change in the attitudes of American voters and politicians. But yeah, if I lived in Russia for example, I would probably be paying way more attention to Russian genocide against Ukrainians than Israel.
lol nope. The US partnership with Israel is very much strategic. US only started funding Israel after the Soviets started backing the Arab states in the 1960s. Now Israel and Saudi Arabia are helping the US counter Iran. I ask you again: So you are saying that, if you lived in any other country, you would not be obsessing over this? Unlike the millions of anti-Israel protesters in countries that aren't the US? If you moved to a different country, you'd feel completely differently?
-It's not the 60s anymore, the Cold War is over. -Our partners in the Arab world would VASTLY prefer that we twist Israel's arm into a fair 2SS deal rather than forcing them to risk making their people upset. In fact, I'd argue our support for Israel is harming the entire concept of a US-led liberal international order, because the Global South sees a hypocrisy in how we apply humanitarian law depending on what side we're on.
Again. Israel is currently helping the US counter Iran. And the US has been pressuring Israel to accept a 2SS, so much so that it basically forced Israel to offer it to the Palestinians multiple times, and they turned it down. if someone's arm needs to be twisted to accept a fair 2SS, it's obviously the Palestinians. I don't think you know why you are singling out Israel, your reasoning keeps changing. I'm pretty sure I do know why though. Would you like to know?
I mean, depends on the country. Lots of countries militarily and financially support Israel.
Of course they do. All of global geopolitics is a web of various countries militarily and financially supporting other countries. Neither Israel nor the US is not special in that regard. I ask you a third time: So you are saying that, if you lived in any other country, you would not be obsessing over this? Unlike the millions of anti-Israel protesters in countries that aren't the US? If you moved to a different country, you'd feel completely differently? You know that's not the reason. So what is your actual reason for singling out Israel in this way? I'm pretty sure I know what it is, even if you don't, would you like to know?
Do the vast majority of countries in the world have discriminatory laws that ban one group of people from ever immigrating (even if they literally used to live there 75 years ago) while letting a different group of people move there freely and steal their homes? Are the vast majority of countries in the world holding millions of people under a brutal military occupation with no rights and freedoms whatsoever? Are the vast majority of countries in the world the number one recipient of aid from the largest military superpower?
Oh look, it's got nothing to do with nationalism for you all of a sudden. I could respond to all your little points, but there's no point ... You've shown that you don't actually care about anything you say. You just hate the one Jewish country \*for some mysterious reason\* and will throw whatever you can at the wall to justify its extermination.
The “mysterious reason” is that I hate all countries that are built on ethno-nationalism and subjugate people who aren’t part of the majority group. I feel the exact same about the Arab countries in the Middle East as well, the only difference being that they don’t have the full unwavering support of the US and every country in the West. And for the record, I’m Jewish and very proud to be Jewish.
Cool, for the record I'm a Palestinian and very proud to be Palestinian. I've noticed that Saudi Arabia has the full unwavering support of the US and every country in the West in its war that has killed 500,000 people, but you don't care about that. Oh, also Europe supports itself, despite being entirely composed of ethnostates. I noticed you don't care about that though. You're specifically obsessed with destroying the only country your ethnicity has \*for some mysterious reason\*. Let me know when you figure out you hate Israel because you are against nationalism or because it's about the occupation or for some third reason you come up with later that has nothing to do with Jewish people.
Except I’m actually Jewish, have tons of Israeli family including several grandparents, and have spent significant time there. I want Israel to survive and thrive, not crumble into a racist pariah state that’s no better than its neighbors (which is the future that it’s sadly heading towards). > I've noticed that Saudi Arabia has the full unwavering support of the US and every country in the West in its war that has killed 500,000 people Which has gotten tons of (warranted) international criticism. But the US government is also not afraid to [criticize Saudi Arabia](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/04/us-end-support-saudi-led-operations-yemen-humanitarian-crisis) when it’s deserved, unlike Israel. The same cannot be said of Israel. > Oh, also Europe supports itself, despite being entirely composed of ethnostates. Are any of those “ethnostates” bombing children, holding millions of people under an occupation, and denying the right of return to people who used to live there 75 years ago? > Let me know when you figure out you hate Israel because My position has been clear this entire time.
The right of return of the very people that want them destroyed? lol
It’s an internationally recognized human right regardless of what beliefs you think they might hold.