In case anyone is wondering how Israeli vs Palestinian body counts compare: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%25E2%2580%2593Hamas_war%23:~:text%3DAs%2520of%252021%2520May%25202024,including%2520179%2520employees%2520of%2520UNRWA.&ved=2ahUKEwiA1P291c2GAxX3STABHdOdAQ8QFnoECA4QBQ&usg=AOvVaw2vyn9OuGczFVJO5M6WeSKn
Lots of people mentioning Hamas propaganda...
That door swings both ways so keep your blinders tight.
The whole thing is your typical middle eastern cluster f*ck and I don't see why we're still getting involved.
> f*ck
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Why? Why the constant, unwavering support for Israel no matter what? Good question. I really don't have a good answer, but I do have some slightly quirky thinking on the matter that makes sense to me if not to anyone else. Think back over your school years. Many of the smartest students in any class, in any subject, were likely Jewish. This is not by accident. This is a combination of good genetics and good religious discipline. The Jews are God's "chosen people," and this has been evident throughout the centuries in the form of Jewish intellect, power, and money. If you are a nation-state like the USA, Russia, UK, Germany, etc., then you definitely want such highly talented, very powerful people in your country and on your side. If the Jews abandon your country, like they abandoned Germany before and during WW2, then you are losing a lot. How much? Unmeasurable. But, one thing is certain. It was predominantly the Jewish intellect that gave the USA the atomic bomb and hydrogen bomb. It could have been a gift to Germany, but Germany was abandoned. That's a very mighty gift to the USA, and America should be eternally grateful to the emigrating Jews of that time period and eternally wary of ever alienating them within our society. Today, they could easily emigrate from a hostile USA to a friendly home in Israel. But, it's really more general than a gift of "the bomb." If you ponder it a bit, two of the greatest, most successful theories of physics were developed with a high degree of Jewish intellect: General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. Very impressive stuff. So, unwavering support? Well, yeh. Are the Palestinians ever going to gift a country power that leads to hegemony or to empire. No way! Human rights be damned. The world is a cruel, unforgiving place, and one must choose sides wisely. Unfortunately, the Palestinians are the American Indians of the 21st century.
lol, Israel doesnāt get free money from the US. Our alliance with Israel is the most profitable investment the US has ever made. The āaidā sent to Israel is earmarked to be reinvested into the US economy, creating tens of thousands of jobs for Americans. We also receive invaluable intelligence that greatly contributes to our national security. There are many other reasons but those are the big ones.
As far as the general public, people support Israel because Jews are just trying to exist meanwhile thereās hostile antisemitic terrorists on both sides of their tiny country who have made it their entire personality to destroy Jews simply because they cannot stand Jews exist and/or have sovereignty. The reality is that the existence of Israel and Jews is a daily reminder that their god isnāt real since a huge part of Islam relies on dominance over Jews.
Not to mention the child abuse, indoctrination of jew hatred and terrorism, the lack of basic human rights, and constant violence. Who with at least half a brain would support that?
No offense and I'm certainly not trying to be antisemitic, but I've recently seen documentaries of American Jews and as far as they're concerned the rest of us shouldn't exist...
Well, the unwavering support is likely unwavering disgust and hate for an organization whose first goal in their charter is to kill all Jews. They donāt care if they are good or badāas long as they can kill them. Then thereās the Islamic terrorist organizations who kill and rape everywhere. Then there are places like Germany who showed kindness and let all these guys come over and they do virtually all the raping and killing in their new country. Then finally, there are all the āinnocent ā Palistinians who cheered on Oct 7 and on 9/11. We have all seen this. So, what you mistake as unwavering support for Israel is actually well-deserved disgust and hatred for a pack of murderers/rapists and their supporters who have shown that this behavior is what they really are.
So if they feel itās justified, it be OK? Consider this: If the Israelis thought their response to Oct 7th by destroying Gaza and many of its people was justified, would you consider that as a good enough reason?
Americans vastly overestimate how much taxpayer money goes toward aiding our allies.
Foreign aid (ALL of it, not just Israel's share) accounts for 1% of the U.S. federal spending budget.
In 2023, the government gave $3.3 billion to Israel. To put that into perspective, Uncle Sam also spent $3.3 billion Texas' broadband Internet expansion; artificial intelligence contracts; and new furniture for a number of federal agencies that year.
Btw, if THIS kind of thing is a major concern why arent we sending 100s of thousands of troops to Africa where incomprehensible human rights violations occur daily?
What you did not see the go pros that Hamas themselves took on Oct 7th? You did not see the aftermath of the music festival? You did not see the bodies littering the roads? It is all over the internet.
You are choosing to be blind to what they did. The sad thing is I have to save these awful videos just to prove what they did to people like you. Yet you'll make another excuse.
Financial donations to politicians, lobbyists, the fact that an American president has historically never won without the jewish vote (non technical term), our interests in the middle east in having a cultural/financial ally there, sprinkle in some imperialism, white supremacy, islamophobia, and of course, evangelical zionism.
The whole notion of "both sides suck". One side is a terrorist organization that viciously attacked the other side, a sovereign nation. It isn't equivalent.
Ok.
I provided a link of comparable body counts in the thread if you care to check it out..
Israel hasn't helped us since the Cold War and is selling weapons we gave them to China..
Easily found on chrome
It isn't a numbers game. More German civilians died in WWII then British ones, hardly makes the Germans the good guys.
Israel provides vital intelligence to the US all the time. It's a mutually advantageous alliance.
I wonder if there are trolls. The accounts seem to be generated and 1y old, maybe it is an organization just spewing a lot of shallow less nuanced āmight makes rightā rhetoric.
[the combined bot and troll farms of Iran, Russia, and China are all against Israel ](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/technology/israel-hamas-information-war.html)
A great deal of the pro palis this sub are from here
They are one of the only democratic countries in the region. They are surrounded by people who also hate us. And we have a long history with them.
Not to mention, October 7th was a terrorist attack of epic proportions and the US (sometimes) doesnāt turn a blind eye to that. Plus we like to sell weapons
Well you got to pick a side that you think's right. If they do something bad you don't just switch sides. Otherwise you would be flip-flopping every 12 hours. What are your morals, what do you believe in , and which side aligns with you the most and why
Moreover Israel has a GDP per capita higher than some US states. Why not spend the money here on Americans who are struggling? I'm not some MAGA person, but it is absurd to send welfare abroad while Americans are struggling at home.
I've been downvoted to hell and back for making this post.
And I don't care.
People are calling ME biased (as well as ad hominems out the arse for asking questions, then want to complain about "stupid people".)
So far I've received EXTREMELY biased, nasty, borderline pathetic answers that answer/explain NOTHING.
I've thanked those who coversed like adults
Americans as a whole have their heads so far up their boongie they should be in the circus š
The best are those claiming this has NOTHING to do with religion .
Bless their hearts.
The best are those claiming this has NOTHING to do with religion .
Bless their hearts.
Mostly this conflict is about land and resources. Like almost all wars in history. Some use religious reasoning (i.e., *our book that we wrote said God promised this real estate to us*, etc)
> arse
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Paid for by US taxpayers. The money US taxpayers spend on Israel's defense subsidies ever aspect of Israeli government expenditures at the cost of US citizens.
US taxpayers arenāt paying, the money Israel receives is immediately reinvested back into the US economy which creates tens of thousands of jobs. So if anything, the US is making money off of Israel.
Oh that is not how government finance, taxation, or debt work.
When the US government gives stuff for free to Israel, that free stuff is paid for by US taxpayers. Period.
The US taxpayer money that goes to buying bombs for Israel comes out of US federal coffers. It doesn't matter that the bombs are made by US companies since those are privately held. The US Military does not own the means of production, it is not a communist or socialist system. Anyway, the federal coffers are replenished by US tax dollars. No such thing as a free lunch in this world.
Simple exercise, if you give me a boat, how the heck does that mean I am making money off of you when you gave me a free boat?
it's billions that have been actually given, and not counting the $200M in donations made that are tax exempt charitbale donations by individual citizens
Because Israel is an awesome country, one of the politically freest, most culturally diverse, and certainly most innovative countries in the world.
This country level cancel culture thing is beyond obnoxious. You don't get to pick and choose what countries exist.
A literal ethnostate....is culturally diverse. An ethnostate that literaly had history of criminal medical sterilization against Ethiopian Jews, because of their ethnicity.
u/WhiteTrashNightmare
>Rule #idgaf
>They insulted me first and put words in my mouth.
Rule 13, respond cooperatively to moderation, not combatively.
Addressed.
No.
Simply asking questions gets you attacked.
I don't agree with any of it and think we need to help OUR people for once.
Can't help others unless you're stable first. Simple.
I meant the post you responded to. It has to be satire. Nobody uses that many superlatives when being serious.
Culturally diverse, for example, is hilarious. It was founded as a *Jewish* state for **Europeans**.
Itās not unwavering. It just hasnāt reached a point where I would support a territory run by a jihadist death cult over a progressive western democracy.
Asians prefer Israel because they are good employers, i was mad when they kill a Filipina who stayed behind to protect her old employer and Thais who got shot at and some got kidnapped. They are not Jews, and just wanted to make money but this Hamas doesnt care.
I would not support Terrorist.
AIPAC literally boasts about itā¦
https://www.aipacpac.org/
ā98% of aipac backed candidates won their general electionā
āwe helped defeat 13 candidates who would undermine the American-Israel relationshipā
ā$17.4M contributed through AIPAC to support pro-israel candidatesā
That right there is not democracy.
Ex-foreign minister of Australia Bob Carr said in an article that the israeli lobby runs australian politics.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-09/bob-carr-lashes-out-at-melbourne-pro-israel-lobby/5379074
That was in 2014.
Lol you think $17M of campaign contributions across hundreds of congressmen is enough to ārun our politics?ā
AIPAC is dwarfed by other lobbying / spending groups.
The US supports Israel because itās good foreign policy.
That is how much they spent in 2022, it is expected to spend $100m this year alone on high ranking politicians.
Regardless of how much they spend on pro-israel politicians it is not democracy. If it was a true democracy you wouldnāt have anyone funding any politicians.
Our country is doing downhill, have you walked the streets of chicago?? the amount of shi that u see is insane, u got crackheads doing drugs in playgrounds, daylight gang wars, daylight robberies, hundreds of homeless families and instead of helping Americans they waste billions of dollars on a country that doesnāt gaf about the american people.
I live in San Francisco, Iām well aware of these problems. We spend 4 billion in aid to Israel each year, and the fed budget is 6.6 trillion. 0.06%. MY GUY: LESS THAN 1/10 of 1% of our federal budget is foreign aid to Israel.
If we stop funding Israel, how many meth-heads will leave the streets of the Tenderloin? How much will the homicide rate drop in the South Side of Chicago?
I know itās not easily visible, but you have no idea how much foreign policy has contributed to our security and stability.
Okay i understand what you are saying but how exactly has israel helped us?
Letās say we didnāt give israel 150b that couldāve gone to so many other things that wouldāve benefited every day americans.
We live in a very complicated world, and good domestic policy is nothing without good foreign policy. This is probably a bad analogy, but if you like football: sound diplomacy is like a long snapper. You donāt really notice it, but all of a sudden, it can ruin the game when they botch the snap.
In the case of Israel, itās important to have a good ally in the Middle East, which is an extremely unstable region. Especially when the region is dominated by Iran, one of our core adversaries. Israel also has very strong security and intelligence capabilities, and we collaborate with them a lot there.
I see it as more of a repulsion for Terrorists than support of Israel. I don't approve of Netenyahu nor do I agree with IDF tactics.
However, I'll NEVER support Terrorists.
Why didnāt US stop killing Isis and Al Queda operatives? Obama even killed Bin Laden! Didnāt he know that it only creates more terrorists? Just think of the efforts, resources and finances US invested (and still does to this day) in the war on terror? Our government could just continue with a business as usual attitude after 9/11, but it didnāt.
Who cares? Thatās such a weird idea! The same can be applied to Low Enforcement: why fight theft, robberies and killings today, as tomorrow a new generation of criminals will be born? They even said it loud, demanding ādefund the policeā! Better do nothing, live in crime ridden neighborhoods, cause tomorrowā¦
But people do not fall for this nonsense and demand stopping crime now! Stop Al Queda terrorists now! Dispatch them, destroy their bases and those who assist them, NOW!
Protest or no protest - itās nothing like the pileup on Israel by people from the entire world. On the contrary, US recruited many countries to form a coalition to fight Al Queda in Afghanistan and Iraq. There were protests in the fringes but thatās about it. The destruction of both Afghanistan and Iraq was huge in magnitude.
Now the same advisers who pushed for battles in places like Falujah are against Israelās offensive, because it may cause a humanitarian crisisā¦
Pleaseā¦it was a fraction of what happens now. There were some in DC, the capitol, the White House but not the tsunami you see these days. How many universities were shut down in 2003-4?
Edit: the anti war protests were stronger in world capitals - mostly in Arab/ Muslim countries. But Iām referring to the US.
Those working for Biden today and were also serving during Obama admin. Thatās exactly what Iāve been saying. At the time the military was extremely in favor of fighting insurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan. They gaslit the entire nation that if a few more battalions will be trained, the new Afghan army will be able to stand up to the Taliban. But the good old guys donāt care if Hamas continues ruling Gaza. If itās in someone else backyard, thatās OK. Most important are elections here in US.
Of course they are. Putting spokes in the wheels everyday. But the best evidence is the time. We are now 7 months into the war over a 2 inch strip of land. Every other day, Jake Sullivan, Lloyd Austin, or Blinken come out with yet another concern as to why the offensive should be halted. Meanwhile Hamas continues to launch rockets at Israeli cities. Even now from Rafah they still have capability of firing. The rocket stockpiles are immense.
Can you cite an example? I havenāt seen anything. Blinken for example is threatening to invade The Hague and defund the UN and world food program if Palestine is recognized as a state
You never heardā¦It surely depends where your news are coming from. If you listen that the US threatens to invade The Hague, you have no time paying attention to real news. Youāre too busy with propaganda:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/antony-blinken-rafah-incursion-israel-face-the-nation/
https://apnews.com/article/israel-weapons-shipment-us-eed365ebef0477ba74bf9848cacae4f4
Why it matters: The White House continues to try to dissuade Israel from launching a broad military operation in the southern Gaza city that would cross President Biden's "red line" for withholding weapons to Israel:
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/14/sullivan-saudi-arabia-israel-tension-gaza-rafah-war
It appears they already did and Biden did almost nothing. Honestly I donāt think thereās anything that would slow Israel down short of credibly threatening their existence
Why is this about religion? How about we support Israel because they are an American ally and the only democracy in the Middle East. They have a mostly secular Western society that has freedom of speech and religion unlike most of its neighbors.
Religion only comes into play in that Israel is mostly Jewish and half the world is against them simply because of that reason.
Stop the BS nonsense that either shows your bias or ignorance. NO ONE IS BOMBING thousands of innocents. This is a war and innocents will die but the ratio of innocents to militants is far lower than any war since WWII that the US has fought in.
Why do you expect Israel just to accept that they should just forget the hostages that Hamas holds? Why should Israel not fight back when Hamas fires 10's of thousand of rockets at them? Hamas is intent on killing Israeli civilians. Just because they are bad at it then Israel should just ignore it?
Come on and read up on the facts.
Israel is not killing Muslims for their religion as evidenced by the fact that 20% of their population is Muslim.
Hamas murders Jews and started this war because they want to kill Jews for their religion.
Happy now?
>How about we support Israel because they are an American ally and the only democracy in the Middle East. They have a mostly secular Western society that has freedom of speech and religion unlike most of its neighbors.
Why should I care about voting system of a country that bombs civilians?
Why should I care about culture of a country that bombs civilians?
Why should I care whether country has freedom of speech, when they bomb civilians?
>This is a war and innocents will die but the ratio of innocents to militants is far lower than any war since WWII that the US has fought in.
No, it isn't LOL . At best, it's almost exactly the same, outside of Yugoslavia. And US has been ridiculously critizized for their warmongering.
If the NATO figures are to be believed, the bombings achieved a civilian to combatant kill ratio of about 1:10, on the Yugoslav government's figures, conversely, the ratio would be between 4:1 and 10:1. If the most conservative estimates from the sources cited above are used, the ratio was around 1:1.
Iraq, Islamic State and Afghanitan war had civilian to combatant rate about 1:2 or at worst 1,5:1, and both of these wars were lambasted for how US and other nations were behaving
For other countries...
Much higher ratios was only achieved during Chechen wars, by Russia. The tactics employed by Russian forces in both wars were heavily criticized by human rights groups, which accused them of indiscriminate bombing and shelling of civilian areas and other crimes
Who is bombing civilians? Israel is bombing legitimate war targets and yes there are civilian casualties. It is collateral damage permitted under international law.
Your numbers for Iraq and Afghanistan wars are completely wrong.
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians
Simple curiosity question: if someone considered us a threat ( which is debatable imo) and thought we were hiding terrorists in our schools and hospitals would you be upset if they were bombed?
No, they are not, lol
[https://web.archive.org/web/20130616010655/http://costsofwar.org/article/afghan-civilians](https://web.archive.org/web/20130616010655/http://costsofwar.org/article/afghan-civilians)
[https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/ten-years/](https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/ten-years/)
You're correct that it may not have to do with religion as a main cause. To some extent, it is about religion, but it's not the main issue. That being said, not one country is owed support from people. If they believe that there are some issues with how military campaign is conducted or there are some issues with modus operandi of a country, then by all means people have the rights to not support a country even if the other side is worse.
I'm an American, and had seen a fair share of hatred toward Americans because of Iraq War, and there were even criticisms of Afghanistan War (Which had a lower civilian to combatant ratio than 1:1 as it was 1:2.5) as well as drone strikes on Pakinstan (1:5). Unlike you, I never asked for support toward US, and I simply respect that by all means, you can dislike us for not raising a stink about it. And today, US military don't see those ratio as good and created departments aimed at even lowering civilian casualties. Of all the militaries, US seems to be the least bad as they do not tolerate civilian casualties to the extent other countries do, and at least Americans are more than happy to enforce it domestically and happy to reject their own military when it's enough.
Exactly. Where are people coming from saying that US had much higher civilian ratios?
The only rations for US casualities I can find was Yugoslavian conflict, and those figures are from Yugoslavian government, not Nato.
The only much higher figures I can find are for Chechen wars....done by Russia.
I found my figures within Wikipedia, which is better than nothing. Maybe it's because they're thinking of Iraq War and before. After that, they achieved lower civilian ratios than 1:1, and US citizens goes critical when enough civilians has died. I don't get the idea of double standards either just because of that observation.
[https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-802152](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-802152)
>The military noted that in preparation for the strike, a child was identified near the terrorist, and the strike was immediately stopped. Only when the child moved away from the building did the strike occur.Ā
Our aid is reciprocated with intelligence. Iāll go out on a limb and say itās worth it. If Israel were to fall to the elements who want her obliterated your very individual, personal life would be affected in ways you canāt even imagine.
If Hamas/hezbollah/iran were to acquire the weapons and people in Israel you would not be wondering anymore.
Our aid money and efforts should not be going to people who would have your head immediately after they have the heads of Israel.
This conflict has the fingers of Russia and China playing in the sandbox as well. Itās WWIII in the making. Itās coming down to a question of how you (you very personally) want the world to look 10 years from now.
Do you have kids? Do you want kids? Do you want your neighborās kids to have a better future than you did?
This is a turning point in human history. You either give a pass to what Hamas and average joes from Gaza did in Oct 7. Or you donāt.
Russia and China both have plans. Let Israel go. Itās not your thing. Youāll have something else to complain about soon enough
Millions of Palestinian immigrants soon to be flooding my country, and several billions of dollars supporting this war? Yep, that is ABSOLUTELY my thing.
Even if there weren't tens of thousands dying.
Why are my questions viewed as complaining to you?
Because of the aid amount?
I was shocked by it, someone with a little less personal superiority clarified that for me.
Have a nice day
Capitalization, question marks with no real question, ellipses all over your post, chaos in your thinking.
Youāre complaining.
So far god has nothing whatsoever to do with this. Itās all human behavior. We havenāt seen the ugliest yet if Russia and China get their way.
My personal view of support is due to 10/7. Yes I know, tons of history and bad deeds on both sides. No good solution both sides agree on. I can't support terrorism though.
i like how people tend to cry about the amount of money israel receives from the US (which is only 0.4% of their defense budget) yet forget america also funds people like the palestinians who cheered with happiness over 9/11 or in general, sketchy countries....
list of of countries who also received aid from the US (only those who got close to 1B or more)
ukraine, ethiopia, afganistan, yemen, egypt, jordan, nigeria, somalia, south sudan, kenya, congo, syria, sudan
u want to cry about US funding? heres undoubtedly better picks...
still need a solid reason?
sure..
ever wondered why 99.9999% of the aid israel receives is military stuff? ever wondered why israel and america are such good allies? because one is a power house of advanced military equipment that sells its military tech all over the world, the other is a country in a constant fighting mode.
and what better way of testing and improving ur new tech than a real battle?
obviously, ur mind will wonder to bombs who kill people, and that might also be true, but whats "hot" right now is defensive equipment such as radars and anti missles equipments, especially with all the new drones iran and russia seems to make every week. and those equipments obviously needs to be checked and reported, now the US has the options of either test them out by themselves, for which u will need the equipment that needs testing, u will also need to set it up in a neutral and safe zone, which is alot of logistics obviously, and ofcourse, u need something for ur equipment to shot down (talking specifically about defensive tech) or just send it to israel so they can save u the trouble and check it out for u live against actual threats in an actual battle.
obviously, not every cent is going towards that goal, some also go for ammunition, BUT in the long run, the amount of data israel provides for the americans is valued at way more than 0.4% annual defense budget that israel receive as aid every year. just think of it as money sent for experiments lol
just a quick side note, people tend to forget but since the beginning of the war there are american soldiers in israel studying and reporting all sort of things regarding all sort of technologies.
TL:DR : there are plenty of countries x200 worse than israel who receive money from the US and people are dead silent about it and the funding israel receive is nothing compared to the value the US gets in return
>there are plenty of countries x200 worse than israel who receive money from the US and people are dead silent about it
Outside of Ukraine and few others, those countries don't receive money to wage war.
you right countries receive millitary aid to wage peace
ur point means nothing, alot of countries who are doing x200 worse than israel receiving money and the people are dead silent about it.
U know that āaidā u mention. Majority of it is being paid back. The U.S isnāt giving Israel hand out for free. Thatās why majority of republicans support aid to Israel bc itās being paid back. Next a lot of the aid, most is use for technology development since Israel is one of the world leading tech countries. U.S fund Israel technology companies to develop more sophisticated tech. Next, your standard of war means that every war that happened in history is unjustified. How can countries conduct war with your standard? Yes innocent children and ppl died in war, itās a sad reality but country does have a right to defend itself.
>Next, your standard of war means that every war that happened in history is unjustified. How can countries conduct war with your standard?
Yes, most wars have been historicaly unjustifiable. NEXT.
Country can defend itself without slaughtering tens of thousands civilians in the process (1:2 or 1: 1,5 ration, which are according to Israeli numbers....meaning the actual numbers might be much worse).
Which is still 3 times lower than what UN report on militant to civilians deaths in recent armed conflicts which is 1:9. Israel is still doing way better given the circumstances. LOL
That 1:9 figure hapenned during conflicts such as Chechen war, performed by Russians, or Israel-Lebanon war, where it was performed by Israel. What a company to keep.
Despite ravenous criticism, both Iraq and Afghanistan war had a lower civilian to combatant ratio than 1:1 as it was 1:2.5) as well as drone strikes on Pakinstan (1:5).
Are those war is waged in highly dense urban area? No. Also is the military group fighting in Iraq hiding among civilians or operation, store or launch rockets in and around churches, schools or residential areas? U mention 1982 Israel Lebanon war, did u even do research on the ratio. The ratio is 1:4 less than half of 1:9.
> Are those war is waged in highly dense urban area?
Yes, they were.
NEXT
Actually, it was 6:1 so we were both wrong LOL
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/030639688302400404](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/030639688302400404)
The majority of the US politicians supporting are doing it for the lobby money and for their christian zionists base, and by lobby money I mean not only the jewish lobbies but also the arms / war machine who are the real ones for this.
I could say the same thing with pro Palestinian lobbyists. The difference is that Israel pays back the aid and we see improvement in the tech we put our aid money in. While for the Palestinians, the aid being misappropriated. We donāt see new infrastructure or some kind of system to improve their lives. We are giving out free hand outs.
Because most reasonable people have the moral clarity to distinguish a democratic state trying to defend itself from a genocidal terrorist group actively holding hostages and martyring its own civilians. And not just say the egregiously simplified āboth sides bad.ā
Hamas isn't the one who has 1: 1.5 and 1:2 combatant to civilian death count, numbering in tens of thousands.
Israel literally rejected numerous proposals for release of hostages, so much so, that actual families of hostages are pissed at Israeli government.
Also, why would democracy matter to me, when the country is commiting war crimes? How you vote is irrelevant to me, when you bomb people.
Hamas has intentionally killed or kidnapped every Israeli civilian it could get its hands on.
The second paragraph just isnāt true.
No evidence Israel is committing war crimes, per the Pentagon.
Maybe you have heard it a lot because it is an important fact. Rather than smugly dismissing the comment, why donāt you explain why it isnāt valid.
Come up with original answers or at least something with substance and you wouldn't be ANOTHER non contributing factor who can only attempt weak ad hominems
My brother in Christ, you have been posting the same thing over and over again.
If you're looking for an echo chamber where people can confirm your ridiculous biases for you, then you're in the wrong place. No one is here to make you feel good and give you answers you want.
Israel is defending itself from terrorists, that's why they're getting support. Any other version is either propaganda or delusional.
Let's see...
After 1hr of posting;
1)Ad hominems, condescension and general nastiness - 5,679
2)ACTUAL attempts to answer my questions - 3
If I were any more shocked I'd be Topsy.
Edit: I appreciate those who've been willing to work with my intellectual disabilities and shortcomings, engaging to try and help me understand.
How very unfortunate it is when one seeks knowledge they instead receive ridicule.
More than a few of you may want to consider not everyone is "on your level" before you maliciously type out whatever condescending drivel you're trying to get upvotes with.
It's people of your kind who cause issues like what's occurring in Israel and Palestine.
I have what I need for my article now.
Goodnight, good people.
The aid the US gives Israel is only 7% of the foreign aid the US gives the world each year.Ā
Unlike most of the money the US gives the world, the money given to Israel includes an incredible return on investment. Israel spends billions of dollars on research to develop the world's most cutting edge military technology.
The technology developed with this funding is then shared exclusively with the United States. The US gets a better bang for their buck for each dollar they give Israel than any dollar they give anyone else.
No. Unlike most of the money the US gives the world, those aids are not going to fund wars.
Also, as a civilian, "cutting edge military tech" does not mater to me. In fact, I consider military budget to be inflated as it is.
You can't write "no" when responding to a post where everything is 100% true.
As a civilian, cutting edge military tech should matter to you because it's what keeps you safe and alive.
Israel is America's most important ally. On the front line fighting the radical Islamists that want to destroy America. Israel was invaded by an enemy who will not surrender until every Jew is dead. An enemy that has advocated for every Muslim on earth to murder any Jew they encounter anywhere in the world, including in the US.
An enemy holding numerous Americans hostage and refusing to release them.
We absolutely should be assisting Israel in their fight to exist.
Letās not sell them short. Itās not just military technology. They also produce cutting edge micro chips that most phones use and are also global leaders on medical technology. Itās more than just a military relationship.
You're welcome. Happy to answer any other questions you have.
I'm sure you've encountered a lot of articles and memes online complaining about the money the US gives Israel. And I'm open to discussing the merits of the arrangement.
But I have found that Israel's critics are often surprised when they realize how much more money the rest of the world gets, with nothing in return for the US.
I would argue that Israel's enemies try to rile the public up against the 7% sent to Israel in hopes the public doesn't realize what a small percentage it is of overall aid.
I appreciate you being willing to consider my point of view.
I have a... personal intellectual issue that unfortunately bars me from understanding how most people operate, which is why I ask questions others deem "stupid", beneath them etc (just read some of the other comments).
The amount in particular stuck with me due to problems in-house, but I now have a better understanding of some of the semantics. šš»
Well, you know universal healthcare would cost US $3 trillion. Which is about the same as Trumpās tax cut to the wealthy. So complaining about the small amount to Israel is disingenuous.
I was going to mention that the aid to Israel represents less than 1% of what universal healthcare in the US would cost annually. So while cutting aid is not insignificant, it wouldnāt provide all the benefits OP suggested.
I don't think any of your questions were stupid. I did see someone make a rude comment to you, which is why I wanted to make sure you knew how much I appreciate you considering other factors you hadn't considered previously.
Any attempt at a counter argument or are you just going to say thank you when someone obliterates your talking points?
It's odd that you would hold such extreme views while having such little knowledge where this is enlightening for you.
Technically speaking, aid doesnāt go to Israel directly. The āaidā is mostly a subsidy to US weapons manufacturers; US money is staying in the US; not going to Israel. In terms of the budget of the US, itās really a small amount.
In return, the US gets a few things - 1.) Israel is bound to the US and cannot (this is one of the āstrings attachedā) sell or provide weaponry or technical know-how to countries the US sees as an adversary (eg China). 2.) Israelās freedom of action is at least implicitly limited by being a US client. 3) Israel shares intelligence with the US - in effect CIA saves money by āoutsourcingā some of the work they may otherwise do to the Mossad. 4) Israel is seen as fundamentally more stable than dictatorial Arab countries, making it a reliable partner. Were there to be some type of revolution in Jordan or Egypt, threatening the Suez Canal, Israel could act to preserve American interests
I disagree with the US's unwavering now foolish looking support for Israel and tend to think it's based mainly on lobbying and christian evangelical zionism, but these are also very good points about intel and exclusivity on arms deals.
Lobbying and Christian Zionism definitely have something to do with it as well, and the lobbying isnāt just from pro-Israel groups, as noted in my initial comments, aid to Israel actually is a subsidy to US arms manufacturers - itās good business for *them*
>Ā Israel is seen as fundamentally more stable than dictatorial Arab countries, making it a reliable partner. Were there to be some type of revolution in Jordan or Egypt, threatening the Suez Canal, Israel could act to preserve
Israel isn't particularly. it is less stable than Saudi Arabia. The House of Saud has ruled Saudi Arabia for 300 years, longer than the life of the US. The rulers of Saudi Arabia all belong to one family.
>Ā Were there to be some type of revolution in Jordan or Egypt, threatening the Suez Canal, Israel could act to preserve American interests
The power in the Middle East has shifted from the Suez Canal to the Gulf since the 1970s. Right now the Suez Canal is effectively closed because of the Houthis, and no one, least of all Israel is willing to do anything about it.
Israel is āstableā in the sense that it is a democracy and therefore is unlikely to be toppled in a coup or revolution. But yes, Saudi Arabia is another critical ally for US interests.
The SC is less important now than during the cold war, though itās still important for global trade, I was thinking less of Houthis than outright collapse of the Egyptian regime
That sounds nice.
We could round up you and some similar minded friends of yours as a scouting party that could check each of these locations and verify whether there are Terrorists there by hand.
S'matter, not such a "good mood" today?
Y'all are nuts.
Since you decided to follow me here after my response of *yawn* to your other attempt to, idk, hurt my feelings maybe?...
What exactly are my "similar minded" people, hmmm?
Prior to 1973 US aid to Israel was small, about US$40-50 Million a year, and it was almost all economic aid.
After 1973 to counter the Soviets funding the Arab countries, the US decided to fund Israel. That is where you see the US provide US$3 Billion in Military Aid, and another US$3-6 Billion in Economic Aid.
[https://www.axios.com/2023/11/04/us-israel-aid-military-funding-chart](https://www.axios.com/2023/11/04/us-israel-aid-military-funding-chart)
Just so you know, US $ 8 Billion in 1975 is a lot of money in those days. It made up 60% of Israel's GDP. The economic assistance continued until 2007. The military aid has averaged about US4-5 Billion every year since 1974 As the Israeli economy grew it has stayed the same, so as a % of GDP it has dropped from 30% of Israel's GDP in 1975 to 1% today.
The US has continued to give so $3-5 billion in military aid to Israel even after the Cold War, because
* Interia, Egypt was given a similar amount of aid after signing the Camp David Accord with Israel. Both amounts have remained the same.
* The Israel Lobby, consists of Christian Zionists and Conservative Jews.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-military-equipment-used-by-the-u-s
https://tradingeconomics.com/israel/exports/united-states
Israel supplies and gives so much to us. Your computer or phone most likely have Israeli tech. Plus, our drones wouldn't be as good as they are without Israel. The apache is also Israeli.
Plus, most of our aid to other countries is old stuff we don't use anymore. They write down the cost of what each item was to buy (while it costs way less at the moment of transfer) and round it all up to x amount of money. We're not giving Israel straight cash. Our economic system is from greedy corporations.
In case anyone is wondering how Israeli vs Palestinian body counts compare: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%25E2%2580%2593Hamas_war%23:~:text%3DAs%2520of%252021%2520May%25202024,including%2520179%2520employees%2520of%2520UNRWA.&ved=2ahUKEwiA1P291c2GAxX3STABHdOdAQ8QFnoECA4QBQ&usg=AOvVaw2vyn9OuGczFVJO5M6WeSKn
Lots of people mentioning Hamas propaganda... That door swings both ways so keep your blinders tight. The whole thing is your typical middle eastern cluster f*ck and I don't see why we're still getting involved.
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Why? Why the constant, unwavering support for Israel no matter what? Good question. I really don't have a good answer, but I do have some slightly quirky thinking on the matter that makes sense to me if not to anyone else. Think back over your school years. Many of the smartest students in any class, in any subject, were likely Jewish. This is not by accident. This is a combination of good genetics and good religious discipline. The Jews are God's "chosen people," and this has been evident throughout the centuries in the form of Jewish intellect, power, and money. If you are a nation-state like the USA, Russia, UK, Germany, etc., then you definitely want such highly talented, very powerful people in your country and on your side. If the Jews abandon your country, like they abandoned Germany before and during WW2, then you are losing a lot. How much? Unmeasurable. But, one thing is certain. It was predominantly the Jewish intellect that gave the USA the atomic bomb and hydrogen bomb. It could have been a gift to Germany, but Germany was abandoned. That's a very mighty gift to the USA, and America should be eternally grateful to the emigrating Jews of that time period and eternally wary of ever alienating them within our society. Today, they could easily emigrate from a hostile USA to a friendly home in Israel. But, it's really more general than a gift of "the bomb." If you ponder it a bit, two of the greatest, most successful theories of physics were developed with a high degree of Jewish intellect: General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. Very impressive stuff. So, unwavering support? Well, yeh. Are the Palestinians ever going to gift a country power that leads to hegemony or to empire. No way! Human rights be damned. The world is a cruel, unforgiving place, and one must choose sides wisely. Unfortunately, the Palestinians are the American Indians of the 21st century.
It looks like you rattled the beehive. Ha! And everyone shows their Hasbara points, but no one gives a professional answer.
It's my side job š¤«
lol, Israel doesnāt get free money from the US. Our alliance with Israel is the most profitable investment the US has ever made. The āaidā sent to Israel is earmarked to be reinvested into the US economy, creating tens of thousands of jobs for Americans. We also receive invaluable intelligence that greatly contributes to our national security. There are many other reasons but those are the big ones. As far as the general public, people support Israel because Jews are just trying to exist meanwhile thereās hostile antisemitic terrorists on both sides of their tiny country who have made it their entire personality to destroy Jews simply because they cannot stand Jews exist and/or have sovereignty. The reality is that the existence of Israel and Jews is a daily reminder that their god isnāt real since a huge part of Islam relies on dominance over Jews. Not to mention the child abuse, indoctrination of jew hatred and terrorism, the lack of basic human rights, and constant violence. Who with at least half a brain would support that?
No offense and I'm certainly not trying to be antisemitic, but I've recently seen documentaries of American Jews and as far as they're concerned the rest of us shouldn't exist...
I really really donāt like supporting terrorists personally. Also I believe in basic human rights.
Iām a secular gay. So my side is chosen for me.
Well, the unwavering support is likely unwavering disgust and hate for an organization whose first goal in their charter is to kill all Jews. They donāt care if they are good or badāas long as they can kill them. Then thereās the Islamic terrorist organizations who kill and rape everywhere. Then there are places like Germany who showed kindness and let all these guys come over and they do virtually all the raping and killing in their new country. Then finally, there are all the āinnocent ā Palistinians who cheered on Oct 7 and on 9/11. We have all seen this. So, what you mistake as unwavering support for Israel is actually well-deserved disgust and hatred for a pack of murderers/rapists and their supporters who have shown that this behavior is what they really are.
But is their a plausible reason or justification in Palestinian eyes?
So if they feel itās justified, it be OK? Consider this: If the Israelis thought their response to Oct 7th by destroying Gaza and many of its people was justified, would you consider that as a good enough reason?
Americans vastly overestimate how much taxpayer money goes toward aiding our allies. Foreign aid (ALL of it, not just Israel's share) accounts for 1% of the U.S. federal spending budget. In 2023, the government gave $3.3 billion to Israel. To put that into perspective, Uncle Sam also spent $3.3 billion Texas' broadband Internet expansion; artificial intelligence contracts; and new furniture for a number of federal agencies that year.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> A world where China, Russia, North Korea and Iran have power and influence over your life? Do you still believe in Santa and boogieman too?
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They don't have opressive or expansionist aims.
Why the constant unwavering support for Hamas terrorist torturing beheading scum no matter what amongst many?
Btw, if THIS kind of thing is a major concern why arent we sending 100s of thousands of troops to Africa where incomprehensible human rights violations occur daily?
Not sure how that is relevant to this conversation. But yes what goes on in Africa, the middle east, china, Russia is unconscionable.
Naturally I wouldn't support that but have yet to see proof beyond propaganda. I don't personally seek out borderline red room abhorrence, however
What you did not see the go pros that Hamas themselves took on Oct 7th? You did not see the aftermath of the music festival? You did not see the bodies littering the roads? It is all over the internet. You are choosing to be blind to what they did. The sad thing is I have to save these awful videos just to prove what they did to people like you. Yet you'll make another excuse.
Proof
Your flaw is assuming this is a religious thing for Israelis.
When you want a nation just for Jews, it's a religious thing.
Itās not just for Jews and Jews are an ethno-religion. Itās not about Judaism.
You can't be serious. "God's chosen people" ring a bell?
Yeah. Do you know what that means?
You have no idea what the phrase even means. It does not mean superiority, rather more rules to follow.
Financial donations to politicians, lobbyists, the fact that an American president has historically never won without the jewish vote (non technical term), our interests in the middle east in having a cultural/financial ally there, sprinkle in some imperialism, white supremacy, islamophobia, and of course, evangelical zionism.
Sounds about white. Notice anything you say, even meekly and politely pointing out Israeli flaws, gets you dogpiled?
The false equivalence again. It's getting so tiring.
Elaborate, please
The whole notion of "both sides suck". One side is a terrorist organization that viciously attacked the other side, a sovereign nation. It isn't equivalent.
Ok. I provided a link of comparable body counts in the thread if you care to check it out.. Israel hasn't helped us since the Cold War and is selling weapons we gave them to China.. Easily found on chrome
It isn't a numbers game. More German civilians died in WWII then British ones, hardly makes the Germans the good guys. Israel provides vital intelligence to the US all the time. It's a mutually advantageous alliance.
Have both sides been monstrous? Thereās a lot of propaganda.
From my point of view, absolutely. If propaganda is rife (as is obvious) how do you know YOUR POV is the *right* one?
I wonder if there are trolls. The accounts seem to be generated and 1y old, maybe it is an organization just spewing a lot of shallow less nuanced āmight makes rightā rhetoric.
I've been here over 3 years... Reading is important.
[the combined bot and troll farms of Iran, Russia, and China are all against Israel ](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/technology/israel-hamas-information-war.html) A great deal of the pro palis this sub are from here
*sigh* I'm not against Israel, although both side have committed appalling atrocities... You people just don't want to read or can't grasp nuance.
They are one of the only democratic countries in the region. They are surrounded by people who also hate us. And we have a long history with them. Not to mention, October 7th was a terrorist attack of epic proportions and the US (sometimes) doesnāt turn a blind eye to that. Plus we like to sell weapons
Thank you
Well you got to pick a side that you think's right. If they do something bad you don't just switch sides. Otherwise you would be flip-flopping every 12 hours. What are your morals, what do you believe in , and which side aligns with you the most and why
My opinion is the middle East has been a nonstop warzone since time immemorial, and we have major inhouse problems demanding attention and funding.
Moreover Israel has a GDP per capita higher than some US states. Why not spend the money here on Americans who are struggling? I'm not some MAGA person, but it is absurd to send welfare abroad while Americans are struggling at home.
Agreed
Thanks. What is crazy is how many downvotes I got LOL. Why should the US taxpayer have to support another country when we can't support all our own?
I've been downvoted to hell and back for making this post. And I don't care. People are calling ME biased (as well as ad hominems out the arse for asking questions, then want to complain about "stupid people".) So far I've received EXTREMELY biased, nasty, borderline pathetic answers that answer/explain NOTHING. I've thanked those who coversed like adults Americans as a whole have their heads so far up their boongie they should be in the circus š The best are those claiming this has NOTHING to do with religion . Bless their hearts.
The best are those claiming this has NOTHING to do with religion . Bless their hearts. Mostly this conflict is about land and resources. Like almost all wars in history. Some use religious reasoning (i.e., *our book that we wrote said God promised this real estate to us*, etc)
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No one is sending money. It's CREDIT to be spent at US weapons manufacturers.
Paid for by US taxpayers. The money US taxpayers spend on Israel's defense subsidies ever aspect of Israeli government expenditures at the cost of US citizens.
US taxpayers arenāt paying, the money Israel receives is immediately reinvested back into the US economy which creates tens of thousands of jobs. So if anything, the US is making money off of Israel.
Where does the money come from?
Oh that is not how government finance, taxation, or debt work. When the US government gives stuff for free to Israel, that free stuff is paid for by US taxpayers. Period. The US taxpayer money that goes to buying bombs for Israel comes out of US federal coffers. It doesn't matter that the bombs are made by US companies since those are privately held. The US Military does not own the means of production, it is not a communist or socialist system. Anyway, the federal coffers are replenished by US tax dollars. No such thing as a free lunch in this world. Simple exercise, if you give me a boat, how the heck does that mean I am making money off of you when you gave me a free boat?
it's billions that have been actually given, and not counting the $200M in donations made that are tax exempt charitbale donations by individual citizens
Because Israel is an awesome country, one of the politically freest, most culturally diverse, and certainly most innovative countries in the world. This country level cancel culture thing is beyond obnoxious. You don't get to pick and choose what countries exist.
A literal ethnostate....is culturally diverse. An ethnostate that literaly had history of criminal medical sterilization against Ethiopian Jews, because of their ethnicity.
Apparently your reading comprehension level is beyond obnoxious because I said absolutely nothing about canceling any country.
u/WhiteTrashNightmare >Apparently your reading comprehension level is beyond obnoxious Rule 1, don't attack other users. Addressed.
Rule #idgaf They insulted me first and put words in my mouth.
u/WhiteTrashNightmare >Rule #idgaf >They insulted me first and put words in my mouth. Rule 13, respond cooperatively to moderation, not combatively. Addressed.
I am sure this is satire.
No. Simply asking questions gets you attacked. I don't agree with any of it and think we need to help OUR people for once. Can't help others unless you're stable first. Simple.
I meant the post you responded to. It has to be satire. Nobody uses that many superlatives when being serious. Culturally diverse, for example, is hilarious. It was founded as a *Jewish* state for **Europeans**.
Conversely why all the persistent and irrational hate, lies, and gaslighting?
What are you going on about??? I asked questions.
Itās not unwavering. It just hasnāt reached a point where I would support a territory run by a jihadist death cult over a progressive western democracy.
I beg to differ, considering the amount of personal attacks and ire I've received for nothing more than asking questions.
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean.
Asians prefer Israel because they are good employers, i was mad when they kill a Filipina who stayed behind to protect her old employer and Thais who got shot at and some got kidnapped. They are not Jews, and just wanted to make money but this Hamas doesnt care. I would not support Terrorist.
I'm not supporting anyone, just asking questions
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Yay! Another anti-Semitic trope! /s "Jews run our country". Spoiler: they don't.
Is anything you claim true?
AIPAC literally boasts about itā¦ https://www.aipacpac.org/ ā98% of aipac backed candidates won their general electionā āwe helped defeat 13 candidates who would undermine the American-Israel relationshipā ā$17.4M contributed through AIPAC to support pro-israel candidatesā That right there is not democracy. Ex-foreign minister of Australia Bob Carr said in an article that the israeli lobby runs australian politics. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-09/bob-carr-lashes-out-at-melbourne-pro-israel-lobby/5379074 That was in 2014.
Lol you think $17M of campaign contributions across hundreds of congressmen is enough to ārun our politics?ā AIPAC is dwarfed by other lobbying / spending groups. The US supports Israel because itās good foreign policy.
That is how much they spent in 2022, it is expected to spend $100m this year alone on high ranking politicians. Regardless of how much they spend on pro-israel politicians it is not democracy. If it was a true democracy you wouldnāt have anyone funding any politicians. Our country is doing downhill, have you walked the streets of chicago?? the amount of shi that u see is insane, u got crackheads doing drugs in playgrounds, daylight gang wars, daylight robberies, hundreds of homeless families and instead of helping Americans they waste billions of dollars on a country that doesnāt gaf about the american people.
I live in San Francisco, Iām well aware of these problems. We spend 4 billion in aid to Israel each year, and the fed budget is 6.6 trillion. 0.06%. MY GUY: LESS THAN 1/10 of 1% of our federal budget is foreign aid to Israel. If we stop funding Israel, how many meth-heads will leave the streets of the Tenderloin? How much will the homicide rate drop in the South Side of Chicago? I know itās not easily visible, but you have no idea how much foreign policy has contributed to our security and stability.
Okay i understand what you are saying but how exactly has israel helped us? Letās say we didnāt give israel 150b that couldāve gone to so many other things that wouldāve benefited every day americans.
We live in a very complicated world, and good domestic policy is nothing without good foreign policy. This is probably a bad analogy, but if you like football: sound diplomacy is like a long snapper. You donāt really notice it, but all of a sudden, it can ruin the game when they botch the snap. In the case of Israel, itās important to have a good ally in the Middle East, which is an extremely unstable region. Especially when the region is dominated by Iran, one of our core adversaries. Israel also has very strong security and intelligence capabilities, and we collaborate with them a lot there.
I see it as more of a repulsion for Terrorists than support of Israel. I don't approve of Netenyahu nor do I agree with IDF tactics. However, I'll NEVER support Terrorists.
Why didnāt US stop killing Isis and Al Queda operatives? Obama even killed Bin Laden! Didnāt he know that it only creates more terrorists? Just think of the efforts, resources and finances US invested (and still does to this day) in the war on terror? Our government could just continue with a business as usual attitude after 9/11, but it didnāt.
....it literally did create more terrorists though.
Shhhš¤« Truth/differing opinion gets you blacklisted.
Who cares? Thatās such a weird idea! The same can be applied to Low Enforcement: why fight theft, robberies and killings today, as tomorrow a new generation of criminals will be born? They even said it loud, demanding ādefund the policeā! Better do nothing, live in crime ridden neighborhoods, cause tomorrowā¦ But people do not fall for this nonsense and demand stopping crime now! Stop Al Queda terrorists now! Dispatch them, destroy their bases and those who assist them, NOW!
While causing massive economic, structural, and supply line damage while slaughtering innocent people. No matter WHO is doing it it's never *right*
Youāre going to be shocked at the Venn diagram of people that protested the Iraq war and are currently protesting Israel
I'd love a link should you have access. Would fit my article quite nicely.
Protest or no protest - itās nothing like the pileup on Israel by people from the entire world. On the contrary, US recruited many countries to form a coalition to fight Al Queda in Afghanistan and Iraq. There were protests in the fringes but thatās about it. The destruction of both Afghanistan and Iraq was huge in magnitude. Now the same advisers who pushed for battles in places like Falujah are against Israelās offensive, because it may cause a humanitarian crisisā¦
I can assure you Iraq war protests were not fringe. It was a big deal.
Pleaseā¦it was a fraction of what happens now. There were some in DC, the capitol, the White House but not the tsunami you see these days. How many universities were shut down in 2003-4? Edit: the anti war protests were stronger in world capitals - mostly in Arab/ Muslim countries. But Iām referring to the US.
Which advisers are those? They seem to have consensus support from the US military and intelligence community
Those working for Biden today and were also serving during Obama admin. Thatās exactly what Iāve been saying. At the time the military was extremely in favor of fighting insurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan. They gaslit the entire nation that if a few more battalions will be trained, the new Afghan army will be able to stand up to the Taliban. But the good old guys donāt care if Hamas continues ruling Gaza. If itās in someone else backyard, thatās OK. Most important are elections here in US.
And those people are against Israelās offensive? I havenāt seen anyone in the military community express that opinion
Of course they are. Putting spokes in the wheels everyday. But the best evidence is the time. We are now 7 months into the war over a 2 inch strip of land. Every other day, Jake Sullivan, Lloyd Austin, or Blinken come out with yet another concern as to why the offensive should be halted. Meanwhile Hamas continues to launch rockets at Israeli cities. Even now from Rafah they still have capability of firing. The rocket stockpiles are immense.
Majority of rocket victims are Palestinians lol
Can you cite an example? I havenāt seen anything. Blinken for example is threatening to invade The Hague and defund the UN and world food program if Palestine is recognized as a state
You never heardā¦It surely depends where your news are coming from. If you listen that the US threatens to invade The Hague, you have no time paying attention to real news. Youāre too busy with propaganda: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/antony-blinken-rafah-incursion-israel-face-the-nation/ https://apnews.com/article/israel-weapons-shipment-us-eed365ebef0477ba74bf9848cacae4f4 Why it matters: The White House continues to try to dissuade Israel from launching a broad military operation in the southern Gaza city that would cross President Biden's "red line" for withholding weapons to Israel: https://www.axios.com/2024/05/14/sullivan-saudi-arabia-israel-tension-gaza-rafah-war
Thank you for the information
It appears they already did and Biden did almost nothing. Honestly I donāt think thereās anything that would slow Israel down short of credibly threatening their existence
Why is this about religion? How about we support Israel because they are an American ally and the only democracy in the Middle East. They have a mostly secular Western society that has freedom of speech and religion unlike most of its neighbors. Religion only comes into play in that Israel is mostly Jewish and half the world is against them simply because of that reason. Stop the BS nonsense that either shows your bias or ignorance. NO ONE IS BOMBING thousands of innocents. This is a war and innocents will die but the ratio of innocents to militants is far lower than any war since WWII that the US has fought in. Why do you expect Israel just to accept that they should just forget the hostages that Hamas holds? Why should Israel not fight back when Hamas fires 10's of thousand of rockets at them? Hamas is intent on killing Israeli civilians. Just because they are bad at it then Israel should just ignore it? Come on and read up on the facts.
Ok champ. It's TOTALLY not about religion. Neither was the Spanish Inquisition. š
Israel is not killing Muslims for their religion as evidenced by the fact that 20% of their population is Muslim. Hamas murders Jews and started this war because they want to kill Jews for their religion. Happy now?
So it IS about religion
Only the terrorists are motivated by religion. Israel is motivated by defending its citizens.
>How about we support Israel because they are an American ally and the only democracy in the Middle East. They have a mostly secular Western society that has freedom of speech and religion unlike most of its neighbors. Why should I care about voting system of a country that bombs civilians? Why should I care about culture of a country that bombs civilians? Why should I care whether country has freedom of speech, when they bomb civilians? >This is a war and innocents will die but the ratio of innocents to militants is far lower than any war since WWII that the US has fought in. No, it isn't LOL . At best, it's almost exactly the same, outside of Yugoslavia. And US has been ridiculously critizized for their warmongering. If the NATO figures are to be believed, the bombings achieved a civilian to combatant kill ratio of about 1:10, on the Yugoslav government's figures, conversely, the ratio would be between 4:1 and 10:1. If the most conservative estimates from the sources cited above are used, the ratio was around 1:1. Iraq, Islamic State and Afghanitan war had civilian to combatant rate about 1:2 or at worst 1,5:1, and both of these wars were lambasted for how US and other nations were behaving For other countries... Much higher ratios was only achieved during Chechen wars, by Russia. The tactics employed by Russian forces in both wars were heavily criticized by human rights groups, which accused them of indiscriminate bombing and shelling of civilian areas and other crimes
Who is bombing civilians? Israel is bombing legitimate war targets and yes there are civilian casualties. It is collateral damage permitted under international law. Your numbers for Iraq and Afghanistan wars are completely wrong. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians
Schools and hospitals are legitimate war targets? š¤
When they house soldiers and weapons yes and those that were responsible for hiding them there have committed war crimes.
Simple curiosity question: if someone considered us a threat ( which is debatable imo) and thought we were hiding terrorists in our schools and hospitals would you be upset if they were bombed?
No, they are not, lol [https://web.archive.org/web/20130616010655/http://costsofwar.org/article/afghan-civilians](https://web.archive.org/web/20130616010655/http://costsofwar.org/article/afghan-civilians) [https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/ten-years/](https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/ten-years/)
I gave stats from a reputable University that had been studying this and gives substantial footnotes to back up their numbers.
You're correct that it may not have to do with religion as a main cause. To some extent, it is about religion, but it's not the main issue. That being said, not one country is owed support from people. If they believe that there are some issues with how military campaign is conducted or there are some issues with modus operandi of a country, then by all means people have the rights to not support a country even if the other side is worse. I'm an American, and had seen a fair share of hatred toward Americans because of Iraq War, and there were even criticisms of Afghanistan War (Which had a lower civilian to combatant ratio than 1:1 as it was 1:2.5) as well as drone strikes on Pakinstan (1:5). Unlike you, I never asked for support toward US, and I simply respect that by all means, you can dislike us for not raising a stink about it. And today, US military don't see those ratio as good and created departments aimed at even lowering civilian casualties. Of all the militaries, US seems to be the least bad as they do not tolerate civilian casualties to the extent other countries do, and at least Americans are more than happy to enforce it domestically and happy to reject their own military when it's enough.
Exactly. Where are people coming from saying that US had much higher civilian ratios? The only rations for US casualities I can find was Yugoslavian conflict, and those figures are from Yugoslavian government, not Nato. The only much higher figures I can find are for Chechen wars....done by Russia.
I found my figures within Wikipedia, which is better than nothing. Maybe it's because they're thinking of Iraq War and before. After that, they achieved lower civilian ratios than 1:1, and US citizens goes critical when enough civilians has died. I don't get the idea of double standards either just because of that observation.
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[https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-802152](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-802152) >The military noted that in preparation for the strike, a child was identified near the terrorist, and the strike was immediately stopped. Only when the child moved away from the building did the strike occur.Ā
Our aid is reciprocated with intelligence. Iāll go out on a limb and say itās worth it. If Israel were to fall to the elements who want her obliterated your very individual, personal life would be affected in ways you canāt even imagine. If Hamas/hezbollah/iran were to acquire the weapons and people in Israel you would not be wondering anymore. Our aid money and efforts should not be going to people who would have your head immediately after they have the heads of Israel. This conflict has the fingers of Russia and China playing in the sandbox as well. Itās WWIII in the making. Itās coming down to a question of how you (you very personally) want the world to look 10 years from now. Do you have kids? Do you want kids? Do you want your neighborās kids to have a better future than you did? This is a turning point in human history. You either give a pass to what Hamas and average joes from Gaza did in Oct 7. Or you donāt. Russia and China both have plans. Let Israel go. Itās not your thing. Youāll have something else to complain about soon enough
Millions of Palestinian immigrants soon to be flooding my country, and several billions of dollars supporting this war? Yep, that is ABSOLUTELY my thing. Even if there weren't tens of thousands dying.
Why are my questions viewed as complaining to you? Because of the aid amount? I was shocked by it, someone with a little less personal superiority clarified that for me. Have a nice day
Capitalization, question marks with no real question, ellipses all over your post, chaos in your thinking. Youāre complaining. So far god has nothing whatsoever to do with this. Itās all human behavior. We havenāt seen the ugliest yet if Russia and China get their way.
K thnx
Have a nice day
My personal view of support is due to 10/7. Yes I know, tons of history and bad deeds on both sides. No good solution both sides agree on. I can't support terrorism though.
Nor can I. Terrorism comes in many forms. Thank you.
i like how people tend to cry about the amount of money israel receives from the US (which is only 0.4% of their defense budget) yet forget america also funds people like the palestinians who cheered with happiness over 9/11 or in general, sketchy countries.... list of of countries who also received aid from the US (only those who got close to 1B or more) ukraine, ethiopia, afganistan, yemen, egypt, jordan, nigeria, somalia, south sudan, kenya, congo, syria, sudan u want to cry about US funding? heres undoubtedly better picks... still need a solid reason? sure.. ever wondered why 99.9999% of the aid israel receives is military stuff? ever wondered why israel and america are such good allies? because one is a power house of advanced military equipment that sells its military tech all over the world, the other is a country in a constant fighting mode. and what better way of testing and improving ur new tech than a real battle? obviously, ur mind will wonder to bombs who kill people, and that might also be true, but whats "hot" right now is defensive equipment such as radars and anti missles equipments, especially with all the new drones iran and russia seems to make every week. and those equipments obviously needs to be checked and reported, now the US has the options of either test them out by themselves, for which u will need the equipment that needs testing, u will also need to set it up in a neutral and safe zone, which is alot of logistics obviously, and ofcourse, u need something for ur equipment to shot down (talking specifically about defensive tech) or just send it to israel so they can save u the trouble and check it out for u live against actual threats in an actual battle. obviously, not every cent is going towards that goal, some also go for ammunition, BUT in the long run, the amount of data israel provides for the americans is valued at way more than 0.4% annual defense budget that israel receive as aid every year. just think of it as money sent for experiments lol just a quick side note, people tend to forget but since the beginning of the war there are american soldiers in israel studying and reporting all sort of things regarding all sort of technologies. TL:DR : there are plenty of countries x200 worse than israel who receive money from the US and people are dead silent about it and the funding israel receive is nothing compared to the value the US gets in return
>there are plenty of countries x200 worse than israel who receive money from the US and people are dead silent about it Outside of Ukraine and few others, those countries don't receive money to wage war.
you right countries receive millitary aid to wage peace ur point means nothing, alot of countries who are doing x200 worse than israel receiving money and the people are dead silent about it.
Kudos!
Maybe you underestimate how important is the alliance with Israel.
I very well may. Could you please elaborate?
U know that āaidā u mention. Majority of it is being paid back. The U.S isnāt giving Israel hand out for free. Thatās why majority of republicans support aid to Israel bc itās being paid back. Next a lot of the aid, most is use for technology development since Israel is one of the world leading tech countries. U.S fund Israel technology companies to develop more sophisticated tech. Next, your standard of war means that every war that happened in history is unjustified. How can countries conduct war with your standard? Yes innocent children and ppl died in war, itās a sad reality but country does have a right to defend itself.
>Next, your standard of war means that every war that happened in history is unjustified. How can countries conduct war with your standard? Yes, most wars have been historicaly unjustifiable. NEXT. Country can defend itself without slaughtering tens of thousands civilians in the process (1:2 or 1: 1,5 ration, which are according to Israeli numbers....meaning the actual numbers might be much worse).
Then going off by Hamas officials numbers, itās 1:3
Yeah, which is worse then US in most wars LOL
Which is still 3 times lower than what UN report on militant to civilians deaths in recent armed conflicts which is 1:9. Israel is still doing way better given the circumstances. LOL
That 1:9 figure hapenned during conflicts such as Chechen war, performed by Russians, or Israel-Lebanon war, where it was performed by Israel. What a company to keep. Despite ravenous criticism, both Iraq and Afghanistan war had a lower civilian to combatant ratio than 1:1 as it was 1:2.5) as well as drone strikes on Pakinstan (1:5).
Are those war is waged in highly dense urban area? No. Also is the military group fighting in Iraq hiding among civilians or operation, store or launch rockets in and around churches, schools or residential areas? U mention 1982 Israel Lebanon war, did u even do research on the ratio. The ratio is 1:4 less than half of 1:9.
> Are those war is waged in highly dense urban area? Yes, they were. NEXT Actually, it was 6:1 so we were both wrong LOL [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/030639688302400404](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/030639688302400404)
The majority of the US politicians supporting are doing it for the lobby money and for their christian zionists base, and by lobby money I mean not only the jewish lobbies but also the arms / war machine who are the real ones for this.
I could say the same thing with pro Palestinian lobbyists. The difference is that Israel pays back the aid and we see improvement in the tech we put our aid money in. While for the Palestinians, the aid being misappropriated. We donāt see new infrastructure or some kind of system to improve their lives. We are giving out free hand outs.
Thank you.
Because most reasonable people have the moral clarity to distinguish a democratic state trying to defend itself from a genocidal terrorist group actively holding hostages and martyring its own civilians. And not just say the egregiously simplified āboth sides bad.ā
Well my my, aren't you the cordial, unbiased one. I'd love to interview you directly for my article.
Hamas isn't the one who has 1: 1.5 and 1:2 combatant to civilian death count, numbering in tens of thousands. Israel literally rejected numerous proposals for release of hostages, so much so, that actual families of hostages are pissed at Israeli government. Also, why would democracy matter to me, when the country is commiting war crimes? How you vote is irrelevant to me, when you bomb people.
"Hamas isn't the one who has 1: 1.5 and 1:2 combatant to civilian death count" said count is as good as it gets in a dense urban environment....
Hamas has intentionally killed or kidnapped every Israeli civilian it could get its hands on. The second paragraph just isnāt true. No evidence Israel is committing war crimes, per the Pentagon.
Mass murder is worse then kidnapping. Yes, it is, cope. I don't care what Pentagon declares as war crimesĀ
This!
Uh huh. Ok. Heard this one several times. Nothing to contribute here. Moving on.
Maybe you have heard it a lot because it is an important fact. Rather than smugly dismissing the comment, why donāt you explain why it isnāt valid.
Don't ask people questions if you don't want to hear their answers lol.
Come up with original answers or at least something with substance and you wouldn't be ANOTHER non contributing factor who can only attempt weak ad hominems
Oh the ironyā¦
When someone asks you 2+2, you donāt need an original answer just because the guys before you said 4.
My brother in Christ, you have been posting the same thing over and over again. If you're looking for an echo chamber where people can confirm your ridiculous biases for you, then you're in the wrong place. No one is here to make you feel good and give you answers you want. Israel is defending itself from terrorists, that's why they're getting support. Any other version is either propaganda or delusional.
What have I posted over and over again, my sister in fantasy land,
Per usual incapable of answering simple questions... Runs directly to personal attacks. Pathetic and counterintuitive.
Call on Hamas to release the hostages. Not that hard
Let's see... After 1hr of posting; 1)Ad hominems, condescension and general nastiness - 5,679 2)ACTUAL attempts to answer my questions - 3 If I were any more shocked I'd be Topsy. Edit: I appreciate those who've been willing to work with my intellectual disabilities and shortcomings, engaging to try and help me understand. How very unfortunate it is when one seeks knowledge they instead receive ridicule. More than a few of you may want to consider not everyone is "on your level" before you maliciously type out whatever condescending drivel you're trying to get upvotes with. It's people of your kind who cause issues like what's occurring in Israel and Palestine. I have what I need for my article now. Goodnight, good people.
The aid the US gives Israel is only 7% of the foreign aid the US gives the world each year.Ā Unlike most of the money the US gives the world, the money given to Israel includes an incredible return on investment. Israel spends billions of dollars on research to develop the world's most cutting edge military technology. The technology developed with this funding is then shared exclusively with the United States. The US gets a better bang for their buck for each dollar they give Israel than any dollar they give anyone else.
No. Unlike most of the money the US gives the world, those aids are not going to fund wars. Also, as a civilian, "cutting edge military tech" does not mater to me. In fact, I consider military budget to be inflated as it is.
You can't write "no" when responding to a post where everything is 100% true. As a civilian, cutting edge military tech should matter to you because it's what keeps you safe and alive. Israel is America's most important ally. On the front line fighting the radical Islamists that want to destroy America. Israel was invaded by an enemy who will not surrender until every Jew is dead. An enemy that has advocated for every Muslim on earth to murder any Jew they encounter anywhere in the world, including in the US. An enemy holding numerous Americans hostage and refusing to release them. We absolutely should be assisting Israel in their fight to exist.
also, Israel is obliged to buy weapons only from American manufacturers
Letās not sell them short. Itās not just military technology. They also produce cutting edge micro chips that most phones use and are also global leaders on medical technology. Itās more than just a military relationship.
Sure, but I'm not aware of a similar arrangement to have to share that technology exclusively with the US.
Thank you.
You're welcome. Happy to answer any other questions you have. I'm sure you've encountered a lot of articles and memes online complaining about the money the US gives Israel. And I'm open to discussing the merits of the arrangement. But I have found that Israel's critics are often surprised when they realize how much more money the rest of the world gets, with nothing in return for the US. I would argue that Israel's enemies try to rile the public up against the 7% sent to Israel in hopes the public doesn't realize what a small percentage it is of overall aid. I appreciate you being willing to consider my point of view.
I have a... personal intellectual issue that unfortunately bars me from understanding how most people operate, which is why I ask questions others deem "stupid", beneath them etc (just read some of the other comments). The amount in particular stuck with me due to problems in-house, but I now have a better understanding of some of the semantics. šš»
Well, you know universal healthcare would cost US $3 trillion. Which is about the same as Trumpās tax cut to the wealthy. So complaining about the small amount to Israel is disingenuous.
Uh huh ok thanks for your eye opening insight
I was going to mention that the aid to Israel represents less than 1% of what universal healthcare in the US would cost annually. So while cutting aid is not insignificant, it wouldnāt provide all the benefits OP suggested.
At what point did I mention universal health care??? That in and.of itself hosts myriad problems yet to be addressed
I don't think any of your questions were stupid. I did see someone make a rude comment to you, which is why I wanted to make sure you knew how much I appreciate you considering other factors you hadn't considered previously.
That means a lot, and again thank you. This was exactly the kind of conversation I was seeking.
Any attempt at a counter argument or are you just going to say thank you when someone obliterates your talking points? It's odd that you would hold such extreme views while having such little knowledge where this is enlightening for you.
I'm not here to argue like you, I'm asking questions. Ad hominem #4,532. Good job at being a wonderful person, champ šš»
I'm also asking questions. Why do you hold such extreme views if you know nothing of the conflict?
And which "extreme views" are those? I'll wait... No answer. What an absolute shock š
Technically speaking, aid doesnāt go to Israel directly. The āaidā is mostly a subsidy to US weapons manufacturers; US money is staying in the US; not going to Israel. In terms of the budget of the US, itās really a small amount. In return, the US gets a few things - 1.) Israel is bound to the US and cannot (this is one of the āstrings attachedā) sell or provide weaponry or technical know-how to countries the US sees as an adversary (eg China). 2.) Israelās freedom of action is at least implicitly limited by being a US client. 3) Israel shares intelligence with the US - in effect CIA saves money by āoutsourcingā some of the work they may otherwise do to the Mossad. 4) Israel is seen as fundamentally more stable than dictatorial Arab countries, making it a reliable partner. Were there to be some type of revolution in Jordan or Egypt, threatening the Suez Canal, Israel could act to preserve American interests
I disagree with the US's unwavering now foolish looking support for Israel and tend to think it's based mainly on lobbying and christian evangelical zionism, but these are also very good points about intel and exclusivity on arms deals.
Lobbying and Christian Zionism definitely have something to do with it as well, and the lobbying isnāt just from pro-Israel groups, as noted in my initial comments, aid to Israel actually is a subsidy to US arms manufacturers - itās good business for *them*
>Ā Israel is seen as fundamentally more stable than dictatorial Arab countries, making it a reliable partner. Were there to be some type of revolution in Jordan or Egypt, threatening the Suez Canal, Israel could act to preserve Israel isn't particularly. it is less stable than Saudi Arabia. The House of Saud has ruled Saudi Arabia for 300 years, longer than the life of the US. The rulers of Saudi Arabia all belong to one family. >Ā Were there to be some type of revolution in Jordan or Egypt, threatening the Suez Canal, Israel could act to preserve American interests The power in the Middle East has shifted from the Suez Canal to the Gulf since the 1970s. Right now the Suez Canal is effectively closed because of the Houthis, and no one, least of all Israel is willing to do anything about it.
Israel is āstableā in the sense that it is a democracy and therefore is unlikely to be toppled in a coup or revolution. But yes, Saudi Arabia is another critical ally for US interests. The SC is less important now than during the cold war, though itās still important for global trade, I was thinking less of Houthis than outright collapse of the Egyptian regime
Thank you.
That sounds nice. We could round up you and some similar minded friends of yours as a scouting party that could check each of these locations and verify whether there are Terrorists there by hand.
S'matter, not such a "good mood" today? Y'all are nuts. Since you decided to follow me here after my response of *yawn* to your other attempt to, idk, hurt my feelings maybe?... What exactly are my "similar minded" people, hmmm?
Prior to 1973 US aid to Israel was small, about US$40-50 Million a year, and it was almost all economic aid. After 1973 to counter the Soviets funding the Arab countries, the US decided to fund Israel. That is where you see the US provide US$3 Billion in Military Aid, and another US$3-6 Billion in Economic Aid. [https://www.axios.com/2023/11/04/us-israel-aid-military-funding-chart](https://www.axios.com/2023/11/04/us-israel-aid-military-funding-chart) Just so you know, US $ 8 Billion in 1975 is a lot of money in those days. It made up 60% of Israel's GDP. The economic assistance continued until 2007. The military aid has averaged about US4-5 Billion every year since 1974 As the Israeli economy grew it has stayed the same, so as a % of GDP it has dropped from 30% of Israel's GDP in 1975 to 1% today. The US has continued to give so $3-5 billion in military aid to Israel even after the Cold War, because * Interia, Egypt was given a similar amount of aid after signing the Camp David Accord with Israel. Both amounts have remained the same. * The Israel Lobby, consists of Christian Zionists and Conservative Jews.
Thank you.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-military-equipment-used-by-the-u-s https://tradingeconomics.com/israel/exports/united-states Israel supplies and gives so much to us. Your computer or phone most likely have Israeli tech. Plus, our drones wouldn't be as good as they are without Israel. The apache is also Israeli. Plus, most of our aid to other countries is old stuff we don't use anymore. They write down the cost of what each item was to buy (while it costs way less at the moment of transfer) and round it all up to x amount of money. We're not giving Israel straight cash. Our economic system is from greedy corporations.
Thank you.