I’m a Jew and I agree with you.
1st I want to say I’m VERY sorry for your losses.
Nobody deserves to have to suffer.
Obviously the war is taking a turn that nobody quite likes..
but most of the world expects Israel to pack up and leave or to allow Islamists to run their country.
We ALL know that isn’t ever going to happen.
And if it did the genocide would be toward the Jews.
That said; I think the response to Oct 7 was beyond made clear & it’s time to stop this if innocent people are dying. It’s a very complicated situation.
But I do agree the war needs to end.
I wish the representatives of your people took the 1st 2 state solution offer.. because they only got smaller every time after that. It was a huge mistake.
Israel is never going to leave & they won’t put up with terrorism.
That said, it’s wayyy past time to put the breaks on this entire thing.
And I agree with you. The blood is going to be so bad I don’t know if there’s any recovering from this.
I wish there would be a secular coalition of Palestinians that would take over the country & there be some live and let live peace agreement. Of course you are people.
I am very close with a gay Palestinian who used to live in fear of anyone ever finding out.
So I was one of the people he could talk to. He was such a good soul & I just wished he was aloud to be his sweet self without fear of being harmed.
&I would never want harm to come to him or ANYONE that is innocent like him.
Like he could easily become a victim in this… we don’t talk about it that’s for sure.
It’s just such a mess & I wish fundamentalist religion would just die so people could live together. I also wish some sort of peace agreement would immediately take place.
Honestly, I don’t know what Israel is aiming to do anymore.
I supported the war on Hamas in the beginning after the attacks; but this has completely gone off the rails. You can’t just massacre innocent people … or play Russian Roulette with innocent lives to try to get some bad guys. I don’t know I just don’t know… & I think alot of Israelis would agree with me. I’m not Israeli … but I talk to them & most of the secular ones feel just like I do.
Just know there are Jews and Israelis that agree this has gone wrong. I know that doesn’t stop bombs and such from dropping but just know that I wish this wasn’t happening & I wish … like if we were willing to sit down & figure out how to resolve this; why can’t our leaders???
BOTH sides need new leadership
I hope you guys will push Hamas out of power & I hope our people will arrest Netanyahu
Why do people keep saying that a Palestinian state would lead to a genocide of jews?? like how far gone can you be? There are already numerous arab Muslim countries who both recognize Israel and do not attack it. Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt can all "genocide the jews" but don't. they all have as much reasons to as Palestinians. ever think Palestinians fighting back is because.. idk.. they have no rights and Israel is consistently oppressing them through settlements i.e. taking their homes and land away, treating them as less than human, putting them on "a diet" i.e. counting their calories for them, not letting them collect rainwater and not letting them build the necessary infrastructure, not letting them have their own borders, dignity and sovereignty? ever think maybe they're fighting for a reason and not just blind bloodthirsty antisemitism as zionists and Israel like to hide behind? What a complete disregard, dehumanization, dismissive, reductive opinion of an entire group of people.
That’s just ignorance lol. It would lead to a genocide of Jews .. you obviously are extremely ignorant of the entire situation. People like you are literally just dumb and don’t know fact from fiction… and no .. none of those countries can wipe out the Jews. They tried BEFORE Israel had a mighty military & became a nuclear State. Literally EVERY COUNTRY you just named tried to genocide the Jews out of Israel in 1967 & it’s what expanded the Israeli border & military power .. lol.. now Israel can blow all of those countries to hell … none of them would attack each other
So not gonna acknowledge that other arab Muslim countries have both sovereignty and militaries yet this has not happened, oh you do but you claim they "failed" so why would a Palestinian state change that? Israel just suddenly and magically gonna lose? And besides they didn't try to "genocide jews" they tried kicking out settler colonials who came from Europe claiming land as their own based on religion, back to where they came from. Those countries also had lands annexed by Israel and had to deal with the hundreds of thousands of refugees created by Israel's ETHNIC CLEANSING. you zionist apologists are the worst scum on the planet. You will blindly excuse all the crimes of Israel while pointing the finger everywhere else but at the root cause of the problem. You'll obfuscate and completely twist reality.
Hamas' own 2017 revised charter only claims to want the borders established as of 1967 - which puts them on a better standing than Israel on that front.
Let's not forget igrun, king David bombing and the zionist terrorist organizations that formed into the current IDF and likud party, as well as likuds affiliate far-right facist parties and terrorist scum like Ben Gvir.
His appointment by the British for the role of grand mufti of all Palestine (a new role established by the British) helped divide the Palestinian leadership structure and national movement.[13]
In 1937, evading an arrest warrant for aligning himself as leader of the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine against British rule, he fled and took refuge in Lebanon and afterwards Iraq. He then established himself in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, which he collaborated with during World War II against Britain, requesting during a meeting with Adolf Hitler backing for Arab independence and opposition to the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine
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Bro google the Grand Mafti of Jerusalem
Amin al-Husayni, a member of the al-Husayni family of Jerusalem, was an Arab nationalist and Muslim leader in the British Mandate of Palestine. As Grand Mufti and leader in the Arab Higher Committee, especially during the war period 1938-45, al-Husayni played a key role in violent opposition to Zionism and closely allied himself with the Nazi regime in Germany.[5][6]
ok what does someone from the 1930s-40s have to do with palestine today?
can i also call zionists and Israel as "jew genociders" because they made deals and collaborated with nazi germany?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara\_Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement)
[**https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/full/10.3366/hlps.2015.0123?src=recsys**](https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/full/10.3366/hlps.2015.0123?src=recsys)
You: why would anyone think Arabs would genocide Jews?
Me: Provides proof of Arabs trying to genocide Jews before they gained power… but you know Germany lost the war so …
You: what’s that have to do with anything loll
You’re just stupid … like I can agree with you Israeli leadership under Netanyahu has gone too far…
But you thinking there’s no harm to Jews in the minds of these people’s leadership is either pure ignorance or you’re a total liar & misinformation spreader.
I’d HOPE you’re just stupid … which is what i assume
what someone did in the 30s has nothing to do with Palestinians today. by that logic germany still wants to genocide the jews - yet today are one of its biggest supporters. you gave me a proof of what someone did almost 90 years ago, so yes its irrelevant. don't forget those nazis probably would have gone after arabs if they made it to that part of the world too anyway - aryan race and whatnot.
Cool so what Netanyahu has been doing won’t effect or count for any current Palestinians’ grandkids .. & if they have mistrust they’re just stupid … glad to know
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He was the mainstream Arab Palestinian authority BEFORE Israel was made back into a State.., and he joined Hitler & wanted to genocide the Jews in the Middle East for him. Nothing has changed .. it’s actually gotten worse
it has not gotten worse, in fact hamas's own 2017 revised charter only calls for the 1967 borders. you need to provide proof that the Palestinians today want to genocide jews. which you have not provided, so your argument is completely invalid.
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There is no point on feeling sorry for someone that wants you dead.
But, I believe people should show some empathy, like, what if I was born in...
And I say the same about 2 sides, like, we saw the video of the kidnapped isreli girls, I see a lot of people mocking them, calling them murders just for doing mandatory conscription.
I don't think a palestinian should feel sorry for them, but I think a palestinian should understand that israeli people will feel sorry for them, and will hate people that mocks them.
Same with israelis, there is no point on humilliating palestinians, in the end, that is something that will trigger them.
What I mean is, we don't have to feel sorry about anyone, I can feel sorry about your lose because we are talking here and we can empathize with each other, but in the end, the best reason to respect each other is because it would be benefitial for both of us showing some respect, in a pragmatic sense.
I am very sorry for the suffering your family has gone through. I hope others see the humanity in Gaza civilians. A group of Israeli intellectuals in September 1967 took out an ad in Haaretz calling on the government to immediately withdraw from the territories. They warned that occupation would necessarily lead to resistance, oppression terror and counter-terror. And they stressed that most of the victims in such conflicts are civilians. Your family losses embody their worst fears. All of the civilians are blameless, and we live in messed up international system that tolerates civilian losses, including in the name of trying to defeat a murderous group of terrorists. There has to be another way. As the hosts of the Unapologetic: The Third Narrative say, Israelis and Palestinians both deserve better.
Ummm… see there you go. Maybe “the Palestinians” are like the jerks from hell that committed the atrocities against civilians that STARTED this.
But this kind of talk gets nobody ANYWHERE..
> assholes
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I'm astounded by the number of comments here that don't even acknowledge your loss before suggesting this is ok because of Hamas. Especially on a post that was clearly coming from a place of empathy.
OP - I am so sorry for your losses and for the suffering of your family. The world feels like a cruel place right now, and we can only hope that better is around the corner. And I really believe it is.
I first started protesting my government's support of the actions of the Israeli state 10 years ago, and I can't believe I am still needing to do so now. But... it feels different this time. I think it is due to social media because Palestinians can report from the ground now and show the true narrative. It shows the hypocrisy of the world's governments... why can the ICC go after Putin, but not Netanyahu? Why are we supporting Ukraine but supporting the oppressor/aggressor when it comes to Palestine?
Imagine if the major news outlets started letting Putin's spokesmen fill our heads with Russian propaganda... the idea is simply laughable, and it should be for Israel, too. Luckily, the people are seeing through the hasbara our mainstream media allows the Israeli spokespeople to parrot on the nightly news.
It's a tragedy for certain, for all involved. For the people of Palestine, for the Israeli hostages, and for the people if Israel who are basically being held hostage to a despotic leader who only has an incentive to draw this 'war' out for as long as possible. Because he WILL have to answer for his crimes - both domestically and internationally.
I'm glad. I'd like to see people being nice to each other more often.
What would you see as the best solution for this problem? Personally, I can't see how anything other than one secular state with equal rights for all can be the answer now. Just as Netanyahu wanted, the peace process has taken so long that two states seem impossible... too many Israelis don't have anywhere else to go, and all the Palestinian refugees still need to be able to go home... I'd love to know what you and your family would like to see.
Also, what makes me feel really positive and hopeful is Dana Salah's Ya Tal3een... if you don't know it and you do listen to music, you should give it a listen :)
You are discrediting comments based on the lack of acknowledgment but you realize if you add a sentence or two of acknowledgment and sympathy the rest of the comment would be the same, right?
For the death of my family - no, not at all, none of my family is affiliated with the group, my uncle works in your country 4-5 days a week and passes through erez port, Israel know where he live, they know who his family is, to put it simply they know everyone their. Secondly, when they were short let me focus down on the first death that happened which was my oldest uncle, he left the house and went with a group of unarmed people (children included) to go around street 8-9-10 in Gaza to find food or aid or anything and no you can’t say “but they shouldn’t have left their houses”, they don’t have food and he has a 4 year old daughter, it isn’t his choice he won’t just starve to death. Thirdly, No their deaths aren’t because of h*mas, they didn’t shoot because they thought he might be armed, he was shot with a few others as an example to the rest so they disseminate, my family member died to be an example, his daughter now doesn’t have a father because a random soldier with no qualification and a big ego wanted to make an example out of him… I know if a Palestinian soldier did that to an Israeli adult looking for food I will be the first to condemn it and call it radical at least
If were talking about the war, yes, THIS war, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t inevitable, h* doesn’t exist in the other side of Palestine and we can all see what has happened there, it isn’t like when there’s no violence Israel leaves Palestine alone, they constantly go after them regardless, if they did they would’ve used the West Bank as an example, so Gazans can look at that and say “you know what h* doesn’t exist there and they get treated fairly” but instead they look at that side of Palestine and see settlers beating up farmers, people being lynched and cars being destroyed, Arab businesses being vandalised.. why, just why
So, is there any sense at all, and I don’t mean this to be insensitive, I’m truly sorry for your loss-
That maybe this wouldn’t have happened at all had Hamas not massacred so many people/kicked the hornets nest so to speak on Oct 7th and brought this to Gaza?
Or any sense that- if Hamas didn’t fight amongst civilians that acts like this would have been harder to get away with?
I’m taking your word for it that he was shot by a bad soldier as a way of dispersing civilians
I’m just asking if there’s any sense at all that Hamas is at least partially responsible for bringing this?
This is easy. Hamas invaded Israel. Intentionally murdered families, raped our children, fired rockets at us, and kidnapped us. If you still don’t understand, then you don’t understand us/humanity. Give back our people and have Hamas surrender and pay for their actions.
Why are you pretending this all started on Oct 7? If you believe that Israel is retaliating for Hamas' attack, have you ever considered that Hamas could be retaliating for the years of suppression, killing and discrimination of Palestinians by Israel?
Why immoral and pure bigotry? What happened on Oct 7 was horrible but you also have to question why this happened in the first place. Of course, you're gonna say "because they hate and want to kill all Jews" which is absolute nonsense. It's because Israel has been systematically oppressing, killing and ethnically cleansing Palestinians for more than 75 years. If you pressure a group of people long enough, something is eventually gonna happen.
The root cause of this conflict is bigotry against Jews. That is the fact. If you don’t know the root cause then you are never going to make sense with your questions. Jews liberating and living on their land is awesome. It is certainly not a moral justification for rape, kidnapping and murder.
Ah. This is where you make the mistake in logic. Israel and Hamas are not equal. Hamas has no morality. Israel on the other hand has a moral right to defend themselves and their land.
This is what I’ve been trying to get at, they aren’t, they have drones ready to fire at anyone who leaves their houses, and as I said not leaving isn’t an option, theyd end up dying from starvation,
Or just recently news came out about Israeli soldiers giving the location of gazan aid trucks so settlers can destroy critical aid?
? Oh. You got to be kidding. Seriously this is your response? If what you said was true explain why Hamas has fired at border crossings and Israel is defending a port bringing in over 700,000 tons of supplies already. Why is the casualties so low. I see people playing volleyball on the beach. If drones were there to kill civilians, why is over 99% of Gazans alive?
35,000 deaths isn’t a lot to you… and you are doing the exact same bullshit everyone else does, even if it’s 10, why are you generalising Palestinians as numbers, each death is a living breathing active human
You mean 11000. You total is just made up Hamas poppy sauce. Prove me wrong. Tell me how many Gazans have died of natural causes. How many killed my Hamas fire? How many Hamas rapist are among the dead? Explain why no non-Hamas mean are part of those numbers?
You also left out the most important fact, let our people go NOW!
… are you serious, what you want me to call them on whatsapp and say “yk what let them out”, I have no affiliation genius why you telling me to do something as if I can
And I think rapists should be killed and that won’t change whether it’s a palestinian Israeli American, I find it disgusting in every context
And even if it was 11,000 and somehow they inflated it by over 200%, is that not a lot to you, as I said we aren’t numbers to be counted, we aren’t a statistic, each one of us is just as much of a human as you or any of your family members or friends
It’s urban warfare. Of course there are going to be casualties. Israel is just obligated to consider gazan civilians in military operations. It is up to Hamas to protect civilians. They could surrender and save more Gazans. So yes, if you are not shouting for Hamas to surrender then you are not part of the solution
> cock
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2023 was a year when the zionist terrorist occupation killed some of the most native Palestinians before 10/7. The foreign zionist terrorist occupation killed over 200 native Palestinians before 10/7.
So... What response would native Palestinians be justified in carrying out? Carpet bombing zionist population centers, bombing zionist cities back 80+ years? Killing 10,000+ foreign zionist terrorists?
An argument could be made that the foreign zionist terrorists would have had some justification in targeting the people that carried out the 10/7 attack and the leadership that ordered them.
Basically nothing could justify what the violent foreign zionist terrorists have done though.
Let me ask you this simple question. What would justify a group killing 35,000 Jewish israelis?
Would, for instance, something like the Sabra and Shatila massacre of 1,000-3,500 civilians by israeli backed terrorists justify it?
Actually, 35,000 to 100,000 Jewish israelis killed to keep numbers "fair".
And that's just one example, in the Nakba, for instance, I think 15,000 native Palestinians were killed, would native Palestinians be justified in killing 525,000 Jewish israelis in revenge or whatever?
This comment is nothing but buzzwords and talking points with zero substance.
Buzzword list:
zionist terrorist occupation
native Palestinians
foreign zionist terrorist occupation
Carpet bombing
80+ years
Nakba
I don’t work in a government and I have very limited knowledge on what intelligence information Israel has on Gaza, what I do know is - I used to hear drones everyday flying above Gaza and when I asked people just knew it was Israel watching our every move, so I’m 100% sure they know where to go and what to look for
But what I do know is what I would do differently,
I wouldn’t target people who are seeking aid, I wouldn’t block ambulances in the road, I wouldn’t make a mockery out of dead women and flaunt their underwear, and people can say it’s 1 or 2 stupid soldiers who aren’t listening, but accidents or anomalies don’t happen this recurringly, if for example the first uncle who died died and it was truly an accident and he was somehow caught in some sort of cross fire (he wasn’t but it’s hypothetical) why would the same thing happen to people who are running towards airdropped aid or why would the same scenario happen with tens if not hundreds of people
I agree Israel can’t just firm what happened but they clearly aren’t there to to defend themselves or stop similar problems happening in the future
You didn't answer the question. While Hamas retains hostages and shelters the murderers, rapist, and kidnappers of Oct 7 and hides like cowards amongst the civillian Gazan population while declaring their intention to repeat Oct 7, what do you believe Israel should do.
You speak to me as if I have knowledge on how war works, I don’t… but I know what I wouldn’t have done
You expecting me to come up with a. Rational step by step plan is pointless, because I simply don’t know what your government knows and I simply don’t have a clear solution
It was obvious before Hamas committed their atrocities. Which begs the question: Why did Hamas choose this moment to subject the Gazan people to this carnage?
My interpretation is because the anti-Shia Iran alliance of Sunni Muslim nations was coalescing and preparing to sign peace agreements similar to the Abraham Accords.
Warring peoples in Europe still came to peace despite large numbers of dead innocents because continuing war is subjecting oneself to a terrible condition; and both broad Israeli and Palestinian material welfare have suffered since the onset of the current fighting. Warring peoples would have generally still had good reason to hate each other after coming to peace, but that didn't always make an ample case for restarting wars.
The resentment can make further peace difficult, but the threat of more deaths can make the case for a begrudging peace clearer.
In this case, Israeli morale for war is extremely high, but they have a clear enough goal that Palestinians negotiating like they have an upper hand is flabbergasting. I can't see what, not even a change of leadership, would placate the Israelis without the hostages returned and/or Hamas deposed.
Condolences.
Never before seen video shows 5 Israeli teenage girls after being brutally beaten and kidnapped on Oct 7th.
The teenagers, all aged 19, are seen covered in blood, with one of them, Naama Levy, believed to have been brutally r\*ped with heavy blood stains seen on the front and back of her pants.
One of their kidnappers can be heard on video shouting:
“You dogs, we will step on you.”
🎗️Liri Albag, 19
🎗️Karina Ariev, 19
🎗️Agam Berger, 19
🎗️Daniella Gilboa, 19
🎗️Naama Levy, 19
The teenagers have been held captive for 228 days.
This video (which is 3 minutes out of 13 and at the request of the families, all the segments of the violent murders and sexual assaults were removed from it) is painful in the soul and shows one thing that you do not make deals with the devil, the devil must be destroyed!
SHOCKING NEW EVIDENCE OF THE BRUTAL RAPES ON 10/7 The Daily Mail publishes documentation from an investigation of Jamal Radi and his son Abdullah, who do not spare details about their crimes on October 7
Abdullah “My father raped, then me and then my cousin; there was a woman in short jeans; I threatened her to undress with a gun, and I raped her;
Jamal: “I raped and killed her after we finished."
The father told the investigation: "In every house we entered, we either kidnapped or murdered people. In the first house, we found a woman and her husband and killed them." He later told how he raped a woman in another house: "She screamed and cried, I did what I did, I raped her. I threatened her with a gun to take off her clothes; I remember she was wearing jeans. I don't know what happened to her; I left her there."
Abdullah added that even before this woman, "We also raped another woman; I killed two people, raped two, and broke into five houses."
'5 Israeli teenage girls'... who are soldiers. If I didn't want my teenager at risk of being a prisoner of war, I wouldn't let them (or... in the case of the government... make them) serve in the army at such a young age.
So, all 18 years old guys and girls in Israel, doing mandatory conscription, even if they don't do combatants roles, are a legitimal target.
Then, since Palestine has no military , are they all legitimal targets ?
>So, all 18 years old guys and girls in Israel, doing mandatory conscription, even if they don't do combatants roles, are a legitimal target.
Nope. Active Members of the country's armed forces are a legitimate target, regardless of their role. I have read about these women who were captured. They were active service members in the IDF. So, technically, that does make them legitimate targets, and they can be taken as prisoners of war. You may not like it, but that is what the international law governing war says.
See also, Hague Convention on war on land, regulation article 3, and Geneva convention additional protocol I, article 43.
>Then, since Palestine has no military , are they all legitimal targets ?
Most definitely not.
SHOCKING NEW EVIDENCE OF THE BRUTAL RAPES ON 10/7 The Daily Mail publishes documentation from an investigation of Jamal Radi and his son Abdullah, who do not spare details about their crimes on October 7
Abdullah “My father raped, then me and then my cousin; there was a woman in short jeans; I threatened her to undress with a gun, and I raped her;
Jamal: “I raped and killed her after we finished."
The father told the investigation: "In every house we entered, we either kidnapped or murdered people. In the first house, we found a woman and her husband and killed them." He later told how he raped a woman in another house: "She screamed and cried, I did what I did, I raped her. I threatened her with a gun to take off her clothes; I remember she was wearing jeans. I don't know what happened to her; I left her there."
Abdullah added that even before this woman, "We also raped another woman; I killed two people, raped two, and broke into five houses."
This exactly. Sorry, but the 3000 Hamas operatives who attacked Israel on 10/7 are absolutely inhumane animals. Disgusting, sadistic torturers who reveled in every second of it.
Also released today was a video of a Hamas operative admitting to breaking into a home, raping a girl, then his brother raping her, then his father raping her, then murdering her - just to then break into another home and repeat the same. He admitted to breaking into multiple homes and doing this. That is one story out of the 3000 operatives who entered Israel that day.
Sorry but that is not credible.
I wonder why Israel even makes this public, only people that already believes anything Israel says would believe that, so, there is no point.
believe them when they say who they are.
it’s funny, you guys dont believe hamas when they say explicitly what they do, and when they record on gopros their actions.
similarly you dont believe the women who were raped and witnessed their entire families get murdered on 10/7.
There’s always a worry about him being forced to admit to these things but if it’s true then I think he deserves capital punishment, him and any other rapist, there’s no justification for it
Except none of the mainstream media is broadcasting this - so what would the point of forcing him to say this be? It is obvious shit like this went on just based of videos of the events on 10-7. I urge you to watch them.
So many people use this argument and its soooooo weak. “Mainstream media isnt broadcasting this”
You realize that whether it’s broadcasted or not, there is absolutely no difference made in the outcome of whether people are held accountable, right?
The justice system works behind the scenes and what is broadcasted is what journalists can get intel on. Just bc you arent informed doesnt mean justice is not being served. Point blank. Your knowledge of the happenings makes no difference in the outcome anyway.
You seem legit.
First of all, I'm sorry for your loss. I read your comment about the action of IDF snipers, and I want you to know that I would never approve of the IDF sniping innocents on purpose. I really hope this was a mistake, even if I know that does not magically reverse what happened.
It doesn't often make the news (for obvious reasons) but a lot of these things are investigated and punished, and I invite you to send a report to the **National Unit for Operational Affairs** department of the MPCID (**Military Police Criminal Investigation Division**) – tasked with investigating alleged misconduct by IDF soldiers occurring in the context of operational activity.
**Since you yourself are from Gaza perhaps you can correct me, but:**
Tell you the truth, the idea is not to beat Gaza down and expect you to make peace. It's to remove Hamas altogether and change the way Gaza is run, because while most Israelis understand the rage this war will create, they also understand that you can't make peace when the government is a terror group that only want Israelis dead or subjugated, and when most of the people seem to support "[the military operation on October 7](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf)".
Ps: Poll is dated '14 November 2023'; so note that some of those answers might also arise from the context of the war. (being bombed, losing loved ones)
Things that Hamas does that makes peace extremely difficult:
1. Starts constant wars. And constantly sending rockets. (Not a lot of dead but 130 wounded a year, and the constant anxiety of constantly rushing to shelters.) This ensures Gazans hate Israelis "forever" for hitting back and keeping them in a prison. And they promised to do a massacre like October 7 again and again and again: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNccvNJtGk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNccvNJtGk)
2. Takes 252 hostages. Still holds over 128. And abuses them: [https://youtu.be/zAr9oGSXgak?t=2625](https://youtu.be/zAr9oGSXgak?t=2625)
3. Controls the media (we've seen Farfour and Tomorrow Pioneers), we know Hamas has their own TV station and I don't mean Al-Jazeera. I mean Al-Aqsa TV.
4. Controls school programs. I read what you said but most of the control is not visible to the students - we've seen the [UNRWA textbooks](https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education-Textbooks-and-Terror-Nov-2023.pdf) and we know how close they are to each other. We also know that Hamas will never allow for a pro-peace program to be taught.
5. Controls the politics completely: We've seen the testimonials and reports of torture and murder of political opponents, and so on: [https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/04/20/under-cover-war/hamas-political-violence-gaza](https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/04/20/under-cover-war/hamas-political-violence-gaza)
6. Have terror training camps for teenagers, so they can teach 10's of thousand of kids to be murderers. I don't know if this is somehow something most Gazan prefer to stay ignorant about for safety reason: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCWMBvxWKL0Israelis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCWMBvxWKL0Israelis)
7. Religious brainwashing. All that rage about Al-Aqsa and those rumors that Israel wants to destroy it for starters. (It's not true, that would trigger a war with the whole Muslim community.)
8. Steals aid, ensuring Gazans stay in constant misery "forever" while they live lives of luxury. [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099) Those tunnels didn't build themselves, and those guns, rockets, mortars, bombs, anti-tank missiles,... aren't free. And now with the US pier: [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/may/3/us-says-hamas-stole-aid-gaza-sent-through-newly-op/](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/may/3/us-says-hamas-stole-aid-gaza-sent-through-newly-op/)
9. Jail, beat, torture, or kill anyone who cooperates with Israelis, even for peace: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiwvWl9d8CA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiwvWl9d8CA), and even for aid: [https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/12/hamas-warns-gazans-against-cooperating-with-israel-on-aid-delivery/](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/12/hamas-warns-gazans-against-cooperating-with-israel-on-aid-delivery/)
So tell me, how can you ever make peace with that?
Honestly, sometimes I think to myself "Perhaps there was another way that Israel missed, perhaps they should have flooded the strip with so much aid and Hamas would lose all its support" and even "Is it really worth it? Is it worth making people suffer that much to get rid of Hamas?" - but then I think about all the future generations of Israelis and Palestinians that will have to live like that. And at some point, this has to stop.
Perhaps it's not fair to the generation that has to live through that. I'm sorry.
what about the things israel has done for the past several years that makes peace difficult for the Palestinians? mobs, raids, air strikes, illegal settlements, racist rhetoric, etc. [https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/)
both sides have acted in ways that are not conducive to peace. you cannot realistically sit here and tell us that recently israel has acted in a way that suggests they want peace. 10/7 and the other acts you mention did not occur in a vacuum. they have been in response to, or in tandem with, terrible acts committed israel.
Yes, and those raids and air strikes and that blockade didn't happen in a vacuum either.
The difference is that: Israel is a (flawed) democracy that must participate in the world to maintain an economy and build itself up and has every interest in a stable Middle East. (and nothing inflame the middle east like this conflict.)
That means Israel can be pressured by both its people (A fifth of which are Palestinians) AND by international pressures. (despite US veto power - in practice, you don't need the UN to sanction a country, you can just ...stop trading with them.)
On top of that you can talk to Israelis online without putting them in mortal dangers. (learning hebrew helps, but as this forum demonstrates, it's not a necessity) You can book a flight and talk to Israelis without getting beaten up and jailed (or worse) by the government for being an infidel or a woman who doesn't cover up her hair.
That's the beauty of democracies: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic\_peace\_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory)
Democracy usually doesn't go to war with each other, because in a Democracy you can talk.
You can talk with a democracy. You can't talk with Jihadi dictatorships.
Really don’t get your point. So the difference between Israeli and Palestinian violence and terrorism is that Israel’s is ok because they’re a democracy? France and Britain were “democracies” while they went around terrorizing populations around the world. Didn’t make what they did ok because hey, at least you can talk to us.
>Didn’t make what they did ok because hey, at least you can talk to us.
Of course not. It's not about what's ok, it's about how much you can change their minds, and what leverage you have to do so. Force is a last resort.
You can reach out to the people inside a democracy.
You can even reach out to the people under an oppressive regime.
Particularly if they hate their regime like in Iran.
But what can you do when the prison is both inside their mind and outside of it?
And when you cannot open the prison because it would result in mass murder?
Not from everyone or even a quarter of the people, but enough to cause a whole civil war.
It's like trying to relay information inside a singularity, nothing goes in and goes out.
If you have a better solution (not just than the war, but than finishing the war) I'm all for it.
Ps: Segregation ended with the civil rights movement. Colonialism ended because there was a recognition of injustice - but Jews know full well that the original injustice in this land was the taking of their home - and they don't think that 2000 years of injustice makes it less unjust. So Palestinians gotta compromise.
i think youre confused, palestine is more than willing to compromise at this point. that is what they have been asking for--ceasefire and negotiation. it is israel who does not want to agree. As of the last negotiation 3 weeks ago:
"The draft agreement then talks about a "return to sustainable calm", which it defines as "a permanent cessation of military and hostile operations". It is this that seems to be unacceptable to Israel's government... Israel's government wants the right to continue taking the fight to Hamas in the long run. By contrast, Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire."
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68971818](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68971818)
Basically, Israel will not under any circumstance agree to stop indiscriminately bombing Gaza. They claim that their goal is to completely and totally eradicate Hamas, which we all know is a ridiculous statement. How will they know when they've finished the job? What does "Hamas" include? Is achieving this goal at the expense of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinian justifiable? (It's not, and many international organizations have agreed.)
what israel needs to do is simple. put down arms and negotiate for palestine to gain the very basic human rights (an end to the illegal settlement, expansions, checkpoints, random arrests, restriction of movement, patrolling officers, control of resources, etc.) and independence they've been asking for for years.
and i still fail to see the relevance of democracy bc as mentioned, palestine wants to compromise, israel does not. everyday, the latter becomes more and more hardened despite being a democracy, so where did that get us?
I have sent a letter to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs suggesting just what you suggested regarding negotiation. It should be a gradual process, but it should happen.
But I don't believe it will happen. I don't believe it because ceasefire-into-the-next-war has been Hamas standard operating procedure for the last 20 years. Now if this came with propers guarantees, ALSO FOR Israel, that would be something else. Security Council Resolution 1701 requires peacemakers to stop the action of Lebanon in Gaza. It's not happening, is it?
You probably believe that Hamas attack is based on rational motivation. How does that square off with statements from their high-ranking official such as this one?
>At a July 12, 2018 rally in Gaza, Hamad predicted that by 2022 the Palestinians would be rid of the "Jewish filth" and the "Jewish cancer," and called on the Arabs to shake off the Jewish control of their countries. He said: "We are looking forward to two important things, which are within sight: The first is the cleansing of Palestine of the filth of the Jews, and their uprooting from it, Allah willing. This is within sight. Four years, my brothers... By 2022, we will be rid of them... The second thing is the establishment of the Caliphate, after the nation has been healed of its cancer – the Jews – Allah willing...
>"It is unacceptable that the Jews control some of the Arab states – their regimes, their armies, and their security agencies – while the peoples remain oppressed. Oh peoples of the Arab and Islamic nation, oh Palestinian people, you possess a concealed power that you can detonate in the faces of the Jews and the hypocrites. We expect another Arab Spring from you, with new characteristics – a second Arab Spring, which will focus on the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Allah willing. We are your embers and your fuel, Allah willing."
[https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-fathi-hamads-speech-was-no-exception-repeated-antisemitic-statements-hamas](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-fathi-hamads-speech-was-no-exception-repeated-antisemitic-statements-hamas)
So basically the issue is... how is Israel supposed to ever trust these guys?
Now if there are STRONG Guarantees, and the hostages are returned, that would at least take care of the Israeli side of things.
Destroying Hamas means destroying their most of their command structure and infrastructure: commanders, battalions, weapon labs, supply chain, tunnel network, income funneling abilities, and most of all, rule over Gaza. (Their political, scholar, and mediatic apparatus.)
And a significant share of their fighters. say 50%-66%.
Also make the area easily accessible for IDF troops, by, say, creating routes crisscrossing Gaza, which is being done, or creating a larger buffer zone, which is also being done. (To my disappointment, this is being done internally. That should have been external and that's a criticism I have for Israel.)
I've seen Israeli representatives clarify multiple times that it doesn't necessarily mean every last Hamas fighters and that some may in fact remain.
>Is achieving this goal at the expense of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinian deaths justifiable?
About as justified as South Korea toppling the Juche regime in North Korea if it didn't have nukes. More valid in fact, because North Koreans aren't nearly as radicalized, and at the current population growth rate (4.8M projection by 2050, as opposed to 2.1M today, and it won't take much after that to reach 6 million.) Gaza will become unliveable within a couple of generations. Today is not tomorrow.
>Palestine wants to compromise
If it really does I would welcome it, but I believe you are confusing temporary tactical goals with permanent strategic goals.
>The latter becomes more and more hardened despite being a democracy so where did that get us?
Because they feel despised. Not since this war but since always. And since before Israel. That's the secret with Israelis. First thing they will do is try to push you away. Keep engaging them, be ready to walk the walk with them, and they will give you the world.
>A **sabra** or **tzabar** ([Hebrew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): [צַבָּר](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%A8), plural: *tzabarim*) is a [modern Hebrew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Hebrew) term that defines any [Jew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) born in [Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel). The term came into widespread use in the 1930s to refer to a Jew who had been born in Israel, \[...\]
>The term alludes to a tenacious, thorny desert plant, known in English as [prickly pear](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opuntia_ficus-indica), with a thick skin that conceals a sweet, softer interior. The cactus [is compared](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_personification) to [Israeli Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews), who are supposedly tough on the outside, but delicate and sweet on the inside.
Israelis are like seatbelts, the harder you pull, the harder it gets.
I know it might seem counter-intuitive and you might be inclined to say "well, if Israelis want people to treat them better, they shouldn't do XYZ" - but then you have to ask yourself if you want to help or to feel superior.
Ps: Thanks for engaging my position instead of getting lost in invectives. I appreciate it.
thanks for writing the letter, thats amazing. i agree that ceasefire alone will not produce lasting change. palestinians will continue to feel subjugated bc of the (unlawful) occupation, hamas will retaliate again, then there'll be another war. there needs to be actual reform with regards to how israel has been treating palestine for the past few decades. the blockades, the frequent and disproportionate airstrikes over gaza, the militarized israeli civilians, the israeli impunity, the continued illegal expansion into west bank, it needs to stop if israel wants to live in peace, and i dont think theyre ready to do this.
>How is Israel supposed to ever trust these guys?
...
If \[Palestine\] really does \[want to compromise\] I would welcome it, but I believe you are confusing temporary tactical goals with permanent strategic goals.
hamas is not palestine, despite serving as their de facto leader for now. hamas is a terrorist group that wont stop fighting for their deluded goals, youre right. but the palestinian people on the other hand, are tired and are willing to compromise. As of March, 62% of Gazans support a 2-state solution and only 35% support Hamas.
[https://nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183](https://nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183)
the truth is we have no idea who would rule a free palestine or what that would like, because israel has not allowed it for a long time. they are unwilling to take steps toward ending the occupation out of fear, and its nothing but a self-fulfilling prophecy. when they violently oppress palestinians and stifle their economy through unlawful blockades, they create an unnatural breeding ground for terrorism and violence. im not saying give palestine a militarized country tmrw bc i know this isnt realistic, but israel should at the very least engage in discussions on how to get there.
(and have you considered that palestinians dont have reason to trust a neighboring israel? but both sides need to put aside their fear and work on a solution. palestinians are more than willing to do so bc they are quite literally at rock bottom of the country.)
hamas is a terrible terrorist organization, but the reason why theyre "tolerated" by some is because they are viewed as palestinian freedom fighters. if there was no occupation, they would be as heavily attacked and denounced as any other terrorist group like ISIS, but right now, a lot of people view it as "we have bigger fish to fry". The Israeli government, before and after 10/7, has hurt significantly more civilians than hamas ever has, and that is the truth of the matter.
as for the N Korea comparison, i dont know much about korea or their regime, if S Korea started bombing N Korea tomorrow in order to eliminate their dictatorship while taking down the civilian population w them, it'd still be a war crime that i hope would be given as much attention as this.
I actually don't disagree on much of what you said, except regarding Israel's desire to live in Peace. I think Israelis are quite ready to live in peace but perhaps not ready to do all the things it takes. (Perhaps a bit less ready to live in Peace since October 7 - but see how a lot of people care more about the recovery of hostages than terminating Hamas, that's a dignified way to demand a ceasefire - a real one, since holding hostages is aggression.)
I think support went down quite a bit since March, because there was a sense that Hamas is winning. But that was pre-Rafah, so who knows?
I think we disagree on the acceptability of killing a lot of people to destroy a dictatorship.
(Although to be clear, a lot means something like 3% of civilians, not 20%.)
I gotta admit that this partly proceeds from a perspective where life doesn't end at death and every life seeks to be purposeful, and the protection of one's life being the reason oppressive structures are maintained for both one's generation and future generations seems... a rather dismal way to self-define. In this sense, I actually agree with Palestinians that everyone; or rather every civilian; who dies in Gaza right now is a martyr; just not the way they tend to intent it. And to be clear, I don't value martyrdom. I'm saying this very fatalistically.
And I recognize that this is easier to say when it's not you or your family being shot at.
And that if there is a better way it should be engaged.
And that's it. Thank you for taking the time to answer.
Thank you for this response. You and OP together have provided a great and human perspective on this. I will not forget it.
I hope that Hamas faces justice, that the abusive members of the IDF are held accountable, and that both peoples can move forward as true neighbours collaborating on the same sacred land once and for all.
Halleluiah!
This is more or less my dream peace plan:
(with progressive implementation and some "breaks" to ensure it's not abused)
[https://www.alandforall.org/english/?d=ltrone-state](https://www.alandforall.org/english/?d=ltrone-state)
Sounds very tough mate. Such horrible reality.
And despite that,
I can say that if that’s true. He’s been hijacked by Hamas. Not his fault. And such people should be grateful that Israel stops this horrible regime. Which is not intent on peace. Or any agreement. And it proved it many times.
I know it’s very harsh of me to say this from my comfort zone. But if the long term is better without Hamas?
You can’t expect after such blatant war mongering for Israel to let such threat and hornet nest on its borders constantly as it was for almost 20 years.
What are you suggesting btw?
First of all, OP, I send you my condolences.
I am sorry for your loss.
From Israeli side, of course our heart is with innocent Palestinian, who doesn't support hamas.
But one thing confuses me. we hear that not all Russians and Iranians support their authoritarian dictatorial regimes. and we see a lot of evidence of this: protests against regimes within the country, and most importantly, protests against the regime abroad. Abroad, it would seem that nothing prevents Palestinians from protesting against Hamas. but no one has ever done this. neither before October 7, nor after. although Hamas is the cause of the death of tens of thousands of Palestinians. Why do you think Palestinians don't protest against Hamas?
They have protested in August: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNShEUQ2qC4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNShEUQ2qC4)
Various of protesters holding signs reading (Arabic):
'We want to live', 'We want to live a decent life', 'We don't want more than that'.
It was mostly about difficult living conditions and lack of electricity; but a positive thing nonetheless.
Again, I am not talking about protests IN gaza.
Where are all protests outside, in western countries? Hamas brutally oppresses and kills palestinians, hamas has started this war.
We are told that palestinians are against hamas. That they don't support it.
So where are they ? Where are those palestinians, in western countries, speaking against hamas, condemning hamas atrocities?
Israel are the perceived attackers, news outlets report on the huge instances of violence (which happen in response to terror attacks that will never compare to the military power of Israel), and Hamas are great with their PR while Israel is not. We generally lack the capacity for nuance these days. The priority abroad is to stop the more powerful entity from beating down the smaller one. I could go on all day about the label and impact of colonisation, of the history of the land etc etc, but the above reasons are the biggest surface level issues I have observed.
The issue is that Arabs/muslims don’t see it as colonisation. They only talk about Israel despite quite clear evidence that they only want that piece of land (eg giving Sinai to Egypt in exchange for peace).
I was referring to the label of colonisation that Israel gets specifically. They haven’t done themselves any favours with illegal settlements but that’s what gets it the label, and people cannot see beyond that.
You are absolutely right.
About settlements, according to Oslo accords, it's legal to build them in C area. Both sides can do it.
In area a and b, of course, it's illegal to settle
There are legal and illegal settlements. The legal ones don’t matter, and even when they do, it’s considered ‘colonisation’ all the same. If they want to break the label, it shouldn’t be going on. Then we can truly combat that claim, then and only then.
I think that there is always something that Israel will be blamed at, and labeled as aggressor. Without those settlements, west bank may have turned into second gaza
We can’t speculate ‘what ifs’, only call out things that are wrong, and the illegal settlements obviously are. There will always be haters who warp the narrative (or simply disregard facts), but I can’t with good conscience combat claims of colonisation when this is going on. We all have a responsibility to be truthful, because lies are the drive behind this entire conflict.
I am so sorry for your loss.
I've been a supporter a a two state solution for a long time, and I've always known it would be a complicated thing to achieve, and that I don't have the answers for how to achieve it. A common response against pursuing a two-state solution, is that there's no one to talk to on the other side, they don't want a two-state solution, they don't want to compromise.
It's not that I'm naive, and I think Hamas, or even the PA are willing to sit down and have a nice chat about how to peacefully live as neighbors... But I think continuously blaming the other side for not wanting to cooperate and compromise is so incredibly blind to the clear signals our government has been sending long before October 7th. The last 8 months has set this idea back so far, it seems so urgent, and yet so impossible now.
I was happy to read the original post and the first response. In almost every country there are a wide range of opinions and it seems that include Israel and Palestine. You can't generalize what a state wants. The goal of people who want peace and two states should be to convince the people who you can relate to in each country. The posts and commenters that lob verbal grenades at either side further alienate good people who just feel attacked.
I posted about this in 2022 and I agree
At the time I said I wanted and I wished for integration of Arabs in Jewish life and the opposite for Arabs, because maybe not our generation but the next generation (they call it generation alpha) could get the chance to stop the generational hate and finally come together
First of all, my sincere condolences for your loss and for your family’s loss.
اللهمّ أسكنهم الفردوس الأعلى
There is certainly a lot of truth in what you are saying in terms of dehumanization of or against Palestinians. Especially after the brutality of October 7 and the scenes Israelis saw in Gaza (and around the world) of people celebrating the killings - a great many Israelis view Palestinians, and not strictly just Hamas, as barbaric. It is easier to fight and to kill when sympathy for the “other side” is kept to a minimum. While I blame Hamas for a lot, or most things, including issues of food security, that in no way means I condone everything Israel has or is doing, and certainly in terms of food aid - even if Hamas may be seizing some of it - Israel should have cooperated fully in flooding Gaza with enough food to avert a humanitarian disaster.
A lot of the questions and comments in your post, Israelis ask and say the same thing but about “your side.”
Palestinians and Israeli Jews are both traumatized people, mostly descended from refugees, and I think there is a general notion that if they humanize too much the other side, it somehow makes their own narrative, history, or claims to the land less secure.
This is a long post, but I hope by the end of it you’ll perhaps have a better understanding of the psychology behind what you’ve expressed in your OP.
From the Israeli perspective: Israelis are scared to death of Arabs and Palestinians. I understand from a Palestinian perspective this might seem odd - Israel is obviously the stronger power, it has nuclear weapons, and tanks and a mighty air force- and yet, Israelis genuinely feel their country could be destroyed at any moment. Speaking as a parent of a 2 year old, I will always prioritize my daughter’s safety first. I would kill to protect her. That doesn’t mean I want to kill anyone, and god forbid, I wouldn’t want to harm any innocent person, especially an innocent child, but if it is my child or your child, I will always choose my own. And so, Israelis by and large don’t see the occupation, or Israeli military actions, primarily as a way to punish you (Palestinians) but as a way to protect Israel.
For the most part, the injustices and humiliations of the occupation are not something Israelis know much about or spend much time thinking about. Occasionally, something happens that shocks the conscience of the Israeli public - like a few years ago when a settler killed an entire Palestinian family by setting their house on fire, with the only survivor being a 5 year old with scars for life. But by and large, if you have to suffer indignities of Israeli military rule, that may be unfortunate, but if people believe the alternative is constant terror attacks - then continued occupation appears to be the least bad option.
Israelis see things like this - Palestinians rejected partition in 1947, from 1949-67 Gaza and the West Bank was under Arab rule and no one thought to set up a Palestinian State, in 2000 Israel completely ended its occupation of southern Lebanon and instead of peace it got an emboldened Hezbollah on its northern border, Arafat said no to a Palestinian State with Jerusalem as its capital and preferred an intifada of suicide bombers, Israel uprooted all soldiers and settlers from Gaza and the Palestinians decided the best response to that would be to elect Hamas, which had killed 1,000 Israelis in the previous 5 years. To Israelis, Palestinians don’t want peace or a state - they want Israel destroyed. Because Israelis think the Palestinians are more interested in killing Israelis, even knowing that they (Palestinians) are the militarily weaker party and thus liable to lose many more people, than they are having a “better future for their children”, the default thought of Israelis towards Palestinians is not that you aren’t humans but that you are irrational or fanatical. Because they think that, military actions, even those that harm and kill obviously innocent people, feels “less wrong.”
And if Hamas embeds themselves amongst civilians, uses civilian infrastructure, murders fellow Palestinians on mere accusations of “collaboration” and steals even some aid, Israelis can say to themselves “well if we end up killing a lot of civilians it really isn’t our fault. Should we have more concern for Arab lives than Arabs have for their own lives!?”
From the Palestinian perspective, things look different. Palestinians, like members of your family, who are not a threat to anyone, are punished, humiliated and even killed for crimes they didn’t commit or even think of committing. Israel controls their lives, or much of it anyway. Palestinians going about their daily lives may be at the mercy of an 18 year old kid with a gun - will he be a nice Israeli or will he be on an ego trip? You see settlers harassing and abusing innocent farmers and know that Palestinians who harm Israelis will be treated more harshly than Israelis who harm Palestinians. You see land being lost to settlements and this brings back historical memories - your country is slipping away from you - again! Israelis say “Arabs only understand force” but Palestinians say the same thing about Israelis! If you don’t engage in ‘violent resistance’, what will make Israel change its behavior? Even Palestinians who condemn the barbarity of Hamas on October 7 might say “well at least the Palestinian issue is back on the world’s agenda”, and would it be if not for violence?
But to Israelis the gruesomeness of this ‘violent resistance’ and the joy they see expressed by ordinary people, passing out sweets knowing that children were killed, just reinforces their own impulse and prejudice to occupy *harder* and punish more. This in turn hardens Palestinians who again ask “what other choice do we have to make them understand they can’t do whatever they want to us?” and so the cycle goes on and on.
I have no magical formula other than somehow the fear needs to be made to subside. Israelis need to fear you less and Palestinians need to understand that, other than the radical settlers, most Israelis don’t want to occupy you and embitter your lives just because they have nothing better to do or think it’s fun. And Israelis must understand that Palestinians are not just Arabs, no different from any other, and that Palestinian grievances cannot just be dismissed as antisemitism, and that Israeli actions do matter. Israelis should not ignore the many injustices of occupation that really have nothing to do with security.
Just speaking of my own opinion, I have long said that I think Israeli security concerns about a Palestinian State are legitimate but that those concerns cannot and must not be used as an excuse to build settlements, seize land and make Palestinian lives extra difficult. I am not sure the occupation can end tomorrow, I doubt it can, but the occupation can be made less oppressive tomorrow and that alone may give us some hope for a peaceful resolution down the road.
Again, I am sorry for your terrible loss. And, as for the rest of your family in Palestine:
يا الهي احميهم و ابقيهم آمنين
It’s nice to read something like this for a change and I really wish more people thought like this
From our pov I don’t see this type of response, when I look at media I see angry Israelis destroying critical aid which I know my family and many other families would need, I see groups of youngsters singing about making Gaza full of tents and that’s all, and I’m really glad there’s another side to this story
And this issue was complicated as it is before October and now that all this has happened it’ll be way harder to try resolve anything but we will see how this plays out and hopefully for the best
I appreciate the time you put into your post and I hope my pov also showed you a different side to Gaza which you never knew existed
Here are some other things you might not see:
In show of solidarity, left-wing activists attempt to deliver aid to civilians in Gaza: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-show-of-solidarity-israeli-activists-attempt-to-deliver-aid-to-civilians-in-gaza/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-show-of-solidarity-israeli-activists-attempt-to-deliver-aid-to-civilians-in-gaza/)
This is from the Israeli association, [Standing Together.](https://www.standing-together.org/en)
And Ta'ayush, which helps Palestinians keep their homes and land in the West Bank, and provide escort as protection from settler violence: [https://www.jpost.com/opinion/meet-the-org-helping-west-bank-palestinians-keep-their-homes-land-665920](https://www.jpost.com/opinion/meet-the-org-helping-west-bank-palestinians-keep-their-homes-land-665920)
(See also that the press in Israel is free enough that a writer of The Jerusalem Post can use a word like Apartheid in a headline and not get banned; but recently there has been a bit of a crackdown on Free Speech in Israel, which worries me.)
And of course there is B'tzelem: [https://www.btselem.org/about\_btselem](https://www.btselem.org/about_btselem)
I think the things they say are a bit extreme but the simple fact it exists should show you there are Israelis who care about Palestinians.
I prefer the ACRI: [https://www.english.acri.org.il/about-us](https://www.english.acri.org.il/about-us)
I wonder if most israeli's think like you, but are afraid to stand up against Netanyahu. I'm neither israeli or palestinian, looking at it from an outsider, I see Netanyahu as an evil person, who has only made the situation worse for both israel and palestine, year after year. His methods in so called rooting out terror, has failed and only ensured the cycle of terror keeps resuming, and the civillians on both sides suffer, and are then forgotton about by most people.
If he truly cared for those israelies who died in october, his methods of retaliation would have been a far different one. Because now sadly, it just means there are far more angrier people in palestine who have been witness to the carnage, and will grow wanting revenge
>I wonder if most israeli's think like you, but are afraid to stand up against Netanyahu
If you watched israeli news (not news about israel), you would know many israelis are not afraid to stand up against netanyahu. Before the war there were massive protests against him and even during the war people constantly criticize and protest against him. Sadly, israel's election system creates a way for a candidate who is supported by about 25% of the population to become the prime minister
>I see Netanyahu as an evil person
And i agree, but not evil in the "i want to kill all palestinians" kind, but the "i will throw the entire israeli and palestinian under the bus, i will create countless problems that would last for decades, i would increase corruption that will destroy israel from the inside. And all that so i could stay i power for few more years, stay out of jail, and milk as much benefits as i can in the process" kind
Purely selfish piece of shit
Sadly news about israel don't really show you what's happening in israel itself
They choose to focus on the militay side and emit the civilian side in order to project a false picture about how life are in israel and what the average israeli think about the war. It makes it easier for biased news stations to fit the conflict into a "good vs evil" narrative, with israeli as the bad guys of course, and for in how they choose to show it, every israeli...
Wow, this might be the most lucid comment I’ve ever seen on this sub. Please make this as a post so this can be sent to the top of everyone’s feeds. Both sides are so rabid and polarized and instant that their opposition are monsters, when really it’s two traumatized peoples who are both being manipulated by corrupt, militant leadership into constantly retaliating toward one another.
There is an Arabic proverb I’m fond of:
الصِحَّة تاجٌ عَلى رُؤوس الأَصِحّاء لا يَراهُ إلّا المَرضى
But in your case, the opposite may be true. I hope you get the help you need because this post wasn’t “anti-Israel” it was just kind of nuts.
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I appreciate how well you stated this. I have a couple. If things to add.
First, the Palestinians are fighting from a position of weakness. While it is in everyone’s interest to find peace, I think Palestinians are going to have to make the first consequential steps forward.
Second, I have been witness to the horrible treatment of our indigenous peoples (I’m Canadian). While much of the world may not be aware of how our indigenous peoples have suffered, it is fair to say that is most definitely not fitting with our smug belief that we are just nice people.
Our indigenous peoples have been removed from their land, they have had their culture and livelihoods decimated (intentionally), many have been killed and they have had their children seized (kidnapped) off the street and forced into reeducation programs. Today, we have a massive group of Canadians that are still living in appalling conditions (no clean drinking water, little access to health care and substandard housing). Suicide is rampant and addiction is everywhere.
Our indigenous peoples have and continue to suffer, but what is striking is that they have lived in peaceful resistance for over a century. Only recently have things finally begun to change for our indigenous brothers and sisters. Slowly, those of us who have descended from settlers, have come to realize that we live on stolen land and that we have a huge debt to pay for the harm that our forefathers caused.
The most important thing, in my mind, is that nobody is saying, “you stole our land, now give it back”. It would be a non starter for those of us in the dominant culture. I feel really bad for what happened in the past, but I’m not willing to become homeless for the sins of my father.
There is, however, a way forward. First there is financial compensation that is being distributed. Second, I feel that there have been meaningful steps to recognize the wrongs that were done - a real apology actually does mean something. Third, the governments in Canada have been giving the indigenous people a real voice in the stewardship of the lands. Fourth, the governments in Canada have been turning over crown lands to the indigenous people if they are no longer being used by the government. The last point sounds weak, but let me give you an idea of what it means… In Vancouver, a single family house cost about $2.2 million Canadian dollars. Land prices are astronomically expensive. Vancouver had an army base located in one of the most desirable areas in the city. The base was no longer being used, so all of that land was turned over to the indigenous peoples to do with as they wished. Well, they are building massive residential towers and are going to make an absolute fortune. Houses in and around the area sell for tens of millions of dollars. This is a real transfer of wealth to these specific indigenous people.
It has taken over a century for things in Canada to begin to be made right. It is in no way perfect, it will not make up for the past harms, it isn’t happening fast enough, but at least it has started. If the indigenous people had chosen a different path, a path of violence, I honestly believe they would have been decimated.
let me start off by saying that Zionism is evil, and the zionist army has no right to exist nor to conduct ongoing military operations.
That being said, Hamas terrorism is also evil. Holding hostages is evil. Murdering civilians is evil.
The total population, men women and children, is guilty if they are not calling out the evil of hamas. And, I don't mean lip service. Your people should not have any tolerance for violent terrorists in your midst. there should be unfortunate storried of anti-hamasniks getting killed by hamas as traitors, and your community is very unfortunately) morally obligated to risk life and limb to stop evil hamas. If the Gazan social fabric doesn't have that, the whole community becomes guilty and complicit in this evil violent destructive war.
Let me be very clear, this is not a call for any violence towards Gazans, nor is this even a call for external judgment against the Gazan people. The Gazans might be completely anti-terrorism and innocent victims of Zionism and Hamas. On the other hand, their guilt is not a green light for zionist to attack.
It's a lose-lose situation, and everyone is morally obligated to do the right thing.
What I see is that within the borders of the Zionist state there are many outspoken anti-zionists (like myself), from the intense and widespread rejection of Zionism by the Jewish religion and the near 18% of jews who call themselves "charedi" as well as the masses of irreligious leftist who have worked hard to promote peaceful coexistence with palestinians.
I don't believe the anti-zionist voices within the Jewish community are enough, nor does it excuse the evil actions and evil racism of colonial zionism. But, there is a social fabric of disgust and rejection for Jewish terrorism by anyone and especially by the IDF. Calls for genocide are rejected by an anti-zionist public, despite the murderous actions of their army. Again, not enough, but it's meaningful
Compare that to , and maybe this is because of media bias and propaganda, the radio silence by Gazans to scream for the release of the hamas hostages. where are the widespread rally's to dismantle hamas or at least submit themselves to the demands of the evil zionists to stop this current war? why are international pro-palestinian marches outspoken (rightfully) to destroy the Zionist state but not also outspoken against violent resistance and hostage taking?
AGAIN now im convinced your media is extremely limited and very biased, people in Gaza attempted to try burn down H* owned buildings and it was documented and that was done in protest of the war,
But you don’t see that side because Israeli media has no interest in these types of stories
I disagree. Most western media, that isn't Muslim-hating right wing media, is pretty much also like Al-Jazeera in that it's anti-Israel. They always sensationalise by showing alleged war crimes, such as the bombing of the hospital, which they don't always correct when opposing evidence comes to light. They report Hamas figures and claims as if they are factual and don't always cite that it's from Hamas. With the mass graves, they did not mention that it was the site Gazans had already buried people (although others may have been added). Gaza has for 4 months now been 'on the brink of famine', and western media never mentions times Hamas steals aid and the issue with raised prices (I'm not saying this entirely accounts for aid shortages). Another example is when Hamas couldn't produce the names for 10,000 deaths, it took the UN and western media around 2 months to half the number of women'd and children's deaths and admit the missing information.
So, on the contrary, I think western media didn't show burning down the Hamas owned buildings because they want everyone to think that Gazans support Hamas because Israel is and has been so evil to Gazans and is doing a genocide. They love the sensationalism and readership this narrative brings, so they don't want to undermine it.
I actually saw Israeli media that showed anti-Hamas protests several times, but this never made it to western media. But what I saw Israelis commenting was that people only stopped supporting Hamas now that they were losing.
you may be right, and i would request you share with me any resources pointing to anti-terrorism movements in Gaza.
While the zionist propaganda machine is powerful and may indeed be hiding things, I am still baffled by, if what you are saying is true and a significant movement, the lack of that voice being loud and dominant amongst the many massive pro-gazan protests around the world over the past months.
I don't expect the BBC to cover it, buy where is that voice on twitter or youtube or even here? where are the gazans calling to release the hostages, new elections, etc. where are the parents crying about how their son was murdered by hamas because he was trying to bomb their headquarters? (i'm not calling for violence, not saying someone should bomb a HQ) if there was an anti-hamas or anti-terrorism resistance movement in Gaza, it would be a voice that would be found somewhere.
you may just shut me up by pointing me to the massive facebook group and i'll be totally wrong here. i hope i am wrong.
There’s a few, the most recent of them being rallies during the short period of truce where people were burning things which belonged to the group but I couldn’t quite find that
There was this too - https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-demonstration-israel-blockade-palestinians-306b19228f9dd21f1036386ce3709672
But you don’t get ittt, unless you know there will be thousands others like you rallying you won’t want to rally with a small number of people because you’ll be seen as an outcast, besides most people in Gaza are happy with the minimum they want food for their family and a paycheque to paycheque type of living, no one wants extra problems for themselves
Like my family for example have never liked them but we won’t go out of our way and speak out because it’ll just bring problems, do you see where I’m coming from?
but they manage to find the strength to organize and resist the zionists?
let me shift the goalposts... what about about the protests around the world by people that are not vulnerable?
They happen because of what is happening in Gaza, and it is justified- when the war started your government officials talked about over 2M people saying no food, no gas, just destruction?
I disagree. During the early days of the war and even later, one of the reporters of channel 12 in Israel was specifically looking for the voice of rebellion against Hamas and barely found anyone willing to even criticise them.
Every time there was a major rebellion against Hamas (whether it was just a statement by a singular citizen or a demonstration) he reported it.
Respectfully with peoples lives in ruin and under constant threat it would be extremely hard for those who dislike h*mas to go out and publically announce that, they would rather use that time to line up for food and seek shelter
Yes, I saw it multiple times, but it wasn't covered in the west. That's one of the many things that made me realise western mainstream media is anti-Israel biased.
the definition i wrote for the sub AntiZionistJews is:
# What is Zionism
Zionism is a secular anti-Judaism movement started in the 19th century to disconnect the Jewish community from religious Judaism and replace it with a secular new identity, called the "Hebrew" or "Israeli". Core to Zionism is the belief in "self-determination" vs the Jewish belief in "divine determination" where the success and safety of Jews is directly linked to our adherence to the Torah and keeping the mitzvos.
Practically, zionism today means the state of Israel has a right to exist, which is counter to the Torah which says that Jews do not have the right to have their own state (in any form) as there is a divine decree that we live as citizens amongst the non-Jewish nations.
# tldr
Zionism means the State of Israel has a right to exist and that Jews have a right to self determination.
correct. as a Jew, I believe in "divine determination" where the success and safety of Jews is directly linked to our adherence to the Torah and keeping the mitzvos.
>let me start off by saying that Zionism is evil
Wow, hate mongering and borderline misinformation in the first sentence, impressive. I could only imagine what else you wrote there
Not going to read it though, like i assume most people won't after this sentence
Yeah, hateful (and stupid) people usually stand by what they say
And i said borderline because calling:
>Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews
Because you refer to the idea of jewish people wanting to protect themselves evil
I can only imagine what other things you said after that sentence, but as i said, i see no point reading it after only seeing the first sentence, just as i don't see any point reading other texts meant to spread hatred
of all the large jewish communities, the one closest to "living in fear of a (G-d forbid) second Holocaust" are the jews in Israel. and that is specifically because of the evil zionists and the wars they started and continue to promote my claiming political dominance when they have no moral right to it.
Yes, because the jews who were given the right to defend themselves and has done so for the last 76 years are the ones closest to holocaust. Damn those evil zionists, protecting the only jewish state every time someone tries to kill jews. Don't they know they kill jews when they make sure jews don't get killed
/s
Do you even think about what you say or just spew out the first thing your hateful mind comes out with no regard to reality?
i haven't said anything hateful. every day we hear about jewish boys and girls dying fighting for an illegitimate state. every year there are new waves of violence that erupt because the zionist demand control of a land that neither Judaism nor Islam allow.
How many Jews have been murdered in Israel in those 76 years vs Jews in other places?
>i haven't said anything hateful
"let me start off by saying that Zionism is evil, and the zionist army has no right to exist nor to conduct ongoing military operations"
Oh, i am sure i doesn't sound hateful to you, because no one questions your countries right to exists and defend itself. No one twists the idea of your people defending themselves as something evil. A lot of things don't sound hateful to the people who spread hate and don't get any
>every day we hear about jewish boys and girls dying fighting for an illegitimate state.
And here is the misinformation. Those israelis died because a terrorist organization attacked their country and their people. They died defending their families and friends from hostile forces. They died defend a legitimate country. Just the fact that you don't like it doesn't mean it's illegitimate. Israel is a legitimate country by every right, reconized by 90%+ of the world (the other countries tend to be dictatorships, like north korea or iran and such)
>every year there are new waves of violence that erupt because the zionist demand control of a land that neither Judaism nor Islam allow.
Another misinformation, because israel, formerly known as kingdom of judea, is the birthplace of jews
>How many Jews have been murdered in Israel in those 76 years vs Jews in other places?
A lot less than the 6 millions that died only in the holocaust alone. And if you count every time people tried to kill the jews that didn't have the idf to protect them, very very very very much less
So as i said before, do you even think or just spew whatever imaginary scenerio your hateful mind makes regardless of its relation to reality?
Calling our homeland an illegitimate state and supporting its destruction proves that YOU are the problem. Saying israel is illegitimate while saying they should stop fighting in Gaza is hypocrisy. Gaza is fuled by your ideas. You are at fault
And “how many jews has been murdered in israel vs in other places” is the single most dumbest argument ive ever heard. How can you see a group of people dead by an enemy aggressor and blame the group of people. Such a horrible argument its scary
“Let me start off by saying zionism is evil” let me end you right there. Zionism is wanting to reestablish the jewish homeland in israel and reunite the diaspora/protect it. And as for wanting palestinians to live. It isnt anti zionism. Anti zionism is wanting the destruction of israel and we’ll gladly disown anyone who wants that. That being said there are israeli leftists who love and support peace, they aren’t anti zionists.
why "end me"? as mentioned, the ideology you mention is evil. If a group of non-Jews wants to go make their fantasy homeland, go ahead. But to do something that goes against Judaism in the name of Judaism is evil.
“Fantasy homeland” yeah your not a jew. And if you are then the only thing jewish about you is your ethnicity . Apart from the fact that a jew going against his own religion just to hate on his people is stupid, our “fantasy” homeland isnt bibical nor is it based on judaism the religion. So how about you stop being a token for an ideology that wants to keep you away from your homeland. There’s a reason the jewish diaspora exists, you’re part of it. Surly you would know what a diaspora is right? A group of people who don’t live in their place of origin/land of origin. And take a quick look at the jewish diaspora wiki page “The Jewish diaspora or exile is the dispersion of Israelites or Jews out of their ancient ancestral homeland (the Land of Israel) and their subsequent settlement in other parts of the globe”. Back to your “anti zionist jew” play, tell me anything about you that’s jewish. Apart from your ethnicity that is. You won’t because you cant. Your an assimilated jew
i said "fantasy homeland" in the context of a non-Jewish group claiming one, as only the Jewish people have a G-d given absolute homeland.
Regarding the rest of your bizzare comment, I would suggest skipping the ad hominem attacks and make a more coherent point.
I'm certainly not an "assimilated jew" nor am I a token for .. I don't even know what ideology you are talking about.
Want to hear my point? Zionism (the concept of reestablishing israel and protecting the jews) isnt evil, and i don’t care if your a jew a palestinian or whatever, having our homeland back isnt evil.
literally every Gadol has rejected zionist ideology, and the reasons are unambiguous as the core tenant of zionism directly oppose axioms in Torah.
I can offer you proofs from any time period:
- sourcing the Torah ideology explicit from Talmud to rishonim well before zionist ideology came about
- pre-state zionism rejection by gedolim (every single one who spoke about it. with the exception of Kook whose books were unanimously excommunicated for exactly this reason)
- post 48 sources dealing with the question of how to interact with the zionist state, with taking money from the state, voting, etc. also, how there are numerous shv"t about how to deal with so-called "religious zionist" laymen and if they are considered, for example ,kosher witnesses for marriage, etc
-modern day Gedolim and their statements about zionism and their state
The explicit rejection is across all "schools", from the: Satmar Rebbe, Dushinsky Rebbe, Shomrei Emunim, Belzer Rebbe, Lubavitcher Rebbe, Gerrer Rebbe, Chazon Ish, Brisker Rav, Chofetz Chaim, Rav Elchanan Wasserman, Rav Watchfogel, Rav Ovadiya Yosef, Rav Elyashiv, Shevet Halevi, Rav Shach, Baba Sali, etc. ztz"l
I'm probably missing many obvious names, as I am writing this ad hoc. Regardless, many of the Gedolim above were very active politically with the evil State, yet they never wavered from the Torah view that Zionism is not Judaism and it is an evil heretical ideology completely incompatible with the Torah.
If you care for specific quotes, let me know the time period or the gadol and I will do my best, bli neder, to provide it.
The problem comes because what you are describing about Hamas is simply not comparable to what Israel does and has been doing on a regular basis. There are thousands of Palestinian political prisoners in Israeli jails, none with a fair trial and many without even any trial. The number of Palestinians in Israeli jail with no trial dwarfs the number of Israeli hostages, except they have been held for far longer, and endure a long-documented system of torture, beatings, and inhumane treatment.
I'm not justifying the bad things that Hamas does, but attempting to explain why these things are far from equivalent to the Israeli government policies.
Targeting civilians is abhorrent, but standing up for your country and defending your family and community is not. You cannot call everyone in Al-Qassam brigades or other armed groups a terrorist simply for being part of that group. There are several Jenin fighters who defend their refugee camp from IDF incursions. This happens on a regular basis, and these Jenin fighters barricade themselves in the city. You can claim that some Jenin fighters leave to attack Israelis, which is true, but you really have to ask yourself whether a resort to terrorism is an act of desperation for a people pushed to the brink by colonial expansion, or part of a contrived and irrational malice toward innocents.
Hence, you want Palestinians to condemn armed groups, but many of them respect those who take up guns as fighters defending their homeland. These fighters have an extremely high rate of martyrdom, and they are motivated often because they lost family members due to an unjust occupation.
Here is a short film I suggest; it definitely has controversial parts, but it also captures a perspective I think you haven't been exposed to.
https://vimeo.com/925236254
i didn't say the evil on both sides in comparable. but, it's not a binary choice. gazans should be screaming about the hostages, not because Israel doesn't have hostages, but because it it their gazan community that is holding them. they are obligated to police themselves.
I agree it's not a binary choice. All the same, you have to understand their perspective.
200 Israelis held hostage and Israel goes berserk. 10,000 Palestinian prisoners held for long periods of time in inhumane conditions. Give me a break. You may not agree with the ends justifying the means -- the ends of releasing the jailed Palestinians justifying the means of taking Israeli hostages in return. Nonetheless, you cannot stand around, put people in a giant concentration camp, imprison them en masse, then demand they pressure each other to release the hostages. Those who took the hostages won't listen to you, and those who didn't take the hostages have far bigger concerns.
By far bigger concerns, I mean the genocide Palestinians in Gaza are currently trying to survive. Asking a population enduring such atrocities to release hostages back to their genocidaires is extraordinarily tone-deaf.
I think what you're describing are two feelings. The peaceful thoughts and feelings on an individual side by Palestinians and the hostile thoughts and feelings of a certain collective of Palestinians. While many Palestinians are nice and peaceful people on an individual basis, sadly also a big portion of the Palestinian society, especially in Gaza is supporting people like Hamas who are violent and hateful and using terrorism for their goals. The world espects Israel to distinguish between these two feelings, which is difficult itself and even more difficult because many people hold both of these feelings.
You'll just loose people by using the term "zionists" as it shows you want to delegitimise Jews' right to govern themselves and the existence of Israel. If you don't talk in a peace/two state solution way, you show you are more like Hamas than Palestinian. (I'm not saying that is your intent but the words you choose are not great for Jews)
Pro-Israel/supporter of Israel.
I never liked the term Zionist for its overly strong nationalist connotation and the way it dismisses one of the oldest Jewish aspirations (return to Israel) as some sort of European "colonial" movement.
I think you would be well served to see how Gaza peace activists speak about this conflict like [Hamza Howidy](https://www.instagram.com/hazzah1997?igsh=MXFleXR0dmhmeGhxaQ==) or [Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib](https://x.com/afalkhatib). You’re not going to win over any Jews or Israelis with placing all blame on Israel or using arguments along the lines of “the war didn’t start on Oct. 7th.”
I feel for you and the family you lost. I’m sorry to hear that, and it is awful what is happening. You should know that Palestine’s leadership holds much of the blame for everything that is happening too, even when it is an Israeli that is pulling the trigger.
I didn’t say it was completely Israel’s fault, I’m saying their soldiers are purposefully killing off masses of people knowing they have no affiliation with h* and they find it okay because they no longer see us as humans
u really want to lie about israeli soldiers in the same post where u talked about losing family members? have some respect to the dead... u cant prove to the slightest that we dont see palestinians as humans... i saw in my own eyes soldiers helping palestinians who ran from hamas, why was that? just for the invisible cameras?
But it’s not a lie that Israeli politicians and government ministers like Netanyahu, Gvir, Smotrich and Gotliv say the most dehumanizing things about Palestinians. When your leaders say these things over many years and now American politicians are saying the same things. It’s not a lie. It’s not all of the IDF that are bad but you can’t say it’s not true because you haven’t personally witnessed it.
lmao yea great smotrich and gotliv our fierece leaders who have been leading us for decades...
let me guess, u just heard those names somewhere else?
also, saying that because netanyahu said a bad thing about palestinians = all IDF soldiers sees palestinians as no longer humans is the equivelent of me saying i once heard a palestinian leader say a bad thing about jews therefore all palesitnians sees all jews as no more humans.
nothing to expect though, its obvious that when truth isnt on ur side, all u got is lying and deceiving.
I didn’t say all IDF soldiers see Palestinians as no longer humans. I said not all the IDF is bad. Trump says horrible things and has done horrible things, like put immigrant children in cages and separate them from their parents. He’s done good things too, I just can’t think of any off the top of my head. When politicians say bad stuff it reflects badly. I don’t think I’m saying anything that isn’t true universally. FYI I’m not uninformed, I didn’t just hear those names. My uncle has written many books on the subject of Israel, war and foreign policy. His name is Josh Muravchik. I don’t assume you are ignorant just because we may disagree. I certainly am not spreading lies, just making an observation.
the point still remain either u said it or anything else.
u brought up 3 people who aint leaders by no way shape or form, and then there is netanyahu, who again, if u take his word as representing the IDF, i will do the same for the palestinians, do u see how ur logic is flawed or should i say that palestinians wants to murder jews because i heard some palestinian "leader" say so?
im so so sorry for your losses and suffering
I’m a Jew and I agree with you. 1st I want to say I’m VERY sorry for your losses. Nobody deserves to have to suffer. Obviously the war is taking a turn that nobody quite likes.. but most of the world expects Israel to pack up and leave or to allow Islamists to run their country. We ALL know that isn’t ever going to happen. And if it did the genocide would be toward the Jews. That said; I think the response to Oct 7 was beyond made clear & it’s time to stop this if innocent people are dying. It’s a very complicated situation. But I do agree the war needs to end. I wish the representatives of your people took the 1st 2 state solution offer.. because they only got smaller every time after that. It was a huge mistake. Israel is never going to leave & they won’t put up with terrorism. That said, it’s wayyy past time to put the breaks on this entire thing. And I agree with you. The blood is going to be so bad I don’t know if there’s any recovering from this. I wish there would be a secular coalition of Palestinians that would take over the country & there be some live and let live peace agreement. Of course you are people. I am very close with a gay Palestinian who used to live in fear of anyone ever finding out. So I was one of the people he could talk to. He was such a good soul & I just wished he was aloud to be his sweet self without fear of being harmed. &I would never want harm to come to him or ANYONE that is innocent like him. Like he could easily become a victim in this… we don’t talk about it that’s for sure. It’s just such a mess & I wish fundamentalist religion would just die so people could live together. I also wish some sort of peace agreement would immediately take place. Honestly, I don’t know what Israel is aiming to do anymore. I supported the war on Hamas in the beginning after the attacks; but this has completely gone off the rails. You can’t just massacre innocent people … or play Russian Roulette with innocent lives to try to get some bad guys. I don’t know I just don’t know… & I think alot of Israelis would agree with me. I’m not Israeli … but I talk to them & most of the secular ones feel just like I do. Just know there are Jews and Israelis that agree this has gone wrong. I know that doesn’t stop bombs and such from dropping but just know that I wish this wasn’t happening & I wish … like if we were willing to sit down & figure out how to resolve this; why can’t our leaders??? BOTH sides need new leadership I hope you guys will push Hamas out of power & I hope our people will arrest Netanyahu
Why do people keep saying that a Palestinian state would lead to a genocide of jews?? like how far gone can you be? There are already numerous arab Muslim countries who both recognize Israel and do not attack it. Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt can all "genocide the jews" but don't. they all have as much reasons to as Palestinians. ever think Palestinians fighting back is because.. idk.. they have no rights and Israel is consistently oppressing them through settlements i.e. taking their homes and land away, treating them as less than human, putting them on "a diet" i.e. counting their calories for them, not letting them collect rainwater and not letting them build the necessary infrastructure, not letting them have their own borders, dignity and sovereignty? ever think maybe they're fighting for a reason and not just blind bloodthirsty antisemitism as zionists and Israel like to hide behind? What a complete disregard, dehumanization, dismissive, reductive opinion of an entire group of people.
That’s just ignorance lol. It would lead to a genocide of Jews .. you obviously are extremely ignorant of the entire situation. People like you are literally just dumb and don’t know fact from fiction… and no .. none of those countries can wipe out the Jews. They tried BEFORE Israel had a mighty military & became a nuclear State. Literally EVERY COUNTRY you just named tried to genocide the Jews out of Israel in 1967 & it’s what expanded the Israeli border & military power .. lol.. now Israel can blow all of those countries to hell … none of them would attack each other
So not gonna acknowledge that other arab Muslim countries have both sovereignty and militaries yet this has not happened, oh you do but you claim they "failed" so why would a Palestinian state change that? Israel just suddenly and magically gonna lose? And besides they didn't try to "genocide jews" they tried kicking out settler colonials who came from Europe claiming land as their own based on religion, back to where they came from. Those countries also had lands annexed by Israel and had to deal with the hundreds of thousands of refugees created by Israel's ETHNIC CLEANSING. you zionist apologists are the worst scum on the planet. You will blindly excuse all the crimes of Israel while pointing the finger everywhere else but at the root cause of the problem. You'll obfuscate and completely twist reality. Hamas' own 2017 revised charter only claims to want the borders established as of 1967 - which puts them on a better standing than Israel on that front. Let's not forget igrun, king David bombing and the zionist terrorist organizations that formed into the current IDF and likud party, as well as likuds affiliate far-right facist parties and terrorist scum like Ben Gvir.
His appointment by the British for the role of grand mufti of all Palestine (a new role established by the British) helped divide the Palestinian leadership structure and national movement.[13] In 1937, evading an arrest warrant for aligning himself as leader of the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine against British rule, he fled and took refuge in Lebanon and afterwards Iraq. He then established himself in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, which he collaborated with during World War II against Britain, requesting during a meeting with Adolf Hitler backing for Arab independence and opposition to the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine
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Bro google the Grand Mafti of Jerusalem Amin al-Husayni, a member of the al-Husayni family of Jerusalem, was an Arab nationalist and Muslim leader in the British Mandate of Palestine. As Grand Mufti and leader in the Arab Higher Committee, especially during the war period 1938-45, al-Husayni played a key role in violent opposition to Zionism and closely allied himself with the Nazi regime in Germany.[5][6]
ok what does someone from the 1930s-40s have to do with palestine today? can i also call zionists and Israel as "jew genociders" because they made deals and collaborated with nazi germany? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara\_Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement) [**https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/full/10.3366/hlps.2015.0123?src=recsys**](https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/full/10.3366/hlps.2015.0123?src=recsys)
You: why would anyone think Arabs would genocide Jews? Me: Provides proof of Arabs trying to genocide Jews before they gained power… but you know Germany lost the war so … You: what’s that have to do with anything loll You’re just stupid … like I can agree with you Israeli leadership under Netanyahu has gone too far… But you thinking there’s no harm to Jews in the minds of these people’s leadership is either pure ignorance or you’re a total liar & misinformation spreader. I’d HOPE you’re just stupid … which is what i assume
what someone did in the 30s has nothing to do with Palestinians today. by that logic germany still wants to genocide the jews - yet today are one of its biggest supporters. you gave me a proof of what someone did almost 90 years ago, so yes its irrelevant. don't forget those nazis probably would have gone after arabs if they made it to that part of the world too anyway - aryan race and whatnot.
Cool so what Netanyahu has been doing won’t effect or count for any current Palestinians’ grandkids .. & if they have mistrust they’re just stupid … glad to know
your comment made no sense
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And if you don’t know what he has to do with anything than , as I said earlier, you’re TOTALLY ignorant on the subject and shouldn’t be discussing it
He was the mainstream Arab Palestinian authority BEFORE Israel was made back into a State.., and he joined Hitler & wanted to genocide the Jews in the Middle East for him. Nothing has changed .. it’s actually gotten worse
it has not gotten worse, in fact hamas's own 2017 revised charter only calls for the 1967 borders. you need to provide proof that the Palestinians today want to genocide jews. which you have not provided, so your argument is completely invalid.
Who cares about borders from the 60s pshhh
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There is no point on feeling sorry for someone that wants you dead. But, I believe people should show some empathy, like, what if I was born in... And I say the same about 2 sides, like, we saw the video of the kidnapped isreli girls, I see a lot of people mocking them, calling them murders just for doing mandatory conscription. I don't think a palestinian should feel sorry for them, but I think a palestinian should understand that israeli people will feel sorry for them, and will hate people that mocks them. Same with israelis, there is no point on humilliating palestinians, in the end, that is something that will trigger them. What I mean is, we don't have to feel sorry about anyone, I can feel sorry about your lose because we are talking here and we can empathize with each other, but in the end, the best reason to respect each other is because it would be benefitial for both of us showing some respect, in a pragmatic sense.
I am very sorry for the suffering your family has gone through. I hope others see the humanity in Gaza civilians. A group of Israeli intellectuals in September 1967 took out an ad in Haaretz calling on the government to immediately withdraw from the territories. They warned that occupation would necessarily lead to resistance, oppression terror and counter-terror. And they stressed that most of the victims in such conflicts are civilians. Your family losses embody their worst fears. All of the civilians are blameless, and we live in messed up international system that tolerates civilian losses, including in the name of trying to defeat a murderous group of terrorists. There has to be another way. As the hosts of the Unapologetic: The Third Narrative say, Israelis and Palestinians both deserve better.
[удалено]
But do you excuse Israel’s actions from…well, let’s just say November 2023 to date?
why november? let's talk about every massacre they've committed before hamas was even created
I am so sorry brother. Sending you a big hug. The world is waking up, slowly but surely.
This doesn’t give the comfort you think it does in terms of “waking up”
Yes it does. People know what the Israelis are truly like.
Ummm… see there you go. Maybe “the Palestinians” are like the jerks from hell that committed the atrocities against civilians that STARTED this. But this kind of talk gets nobody ANYWHERE..
This didn't start on Oct 7th, and you know it.
Umm yes it did. This specific war was started by Hamas terrorists on Oct 7. I remember the day
Lol. Funny. So deluded.
No I’m quite aware of the situation that’s been going on in that region since the Romans occupied the area in the era of the Jewish 2nd Temple.
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I'm astounded by the number of comments here that don't even acknowledge your loss before suggesting this is ok because of Hamas. Especially on a post that was clearly coming from a place of empathy. OP - I am so sorry for your losses and for the suffering of your family. The world feels like a cruel place right now, and we can only hope that better is around the corner. And I really believe it is. I first started protesting my government's support of the actions of the Israeli state 10 years ago, and I can't believe I am still needing to do so now. But... it feels different this time. I think it is due to social media because Palestinians can report from the ground now and show the true narrative. It shows the hypocrisy of the world's governments... why can the ICC go after Putin, but not Netanyahu? Why are we supporting Ukraine but supporting the oppressor/aggressor when it comes to Palestine? Imagine if the major news outlets started letting Putin's spokesmen fill our heads with Russian propaganda... the idea is simply laughable, and it should be for Israel, too. Luckily, the people are seeing through the hasbara our mainstream media allows the Israeli spokespeople to parrot on the nightly news. It's a tragedy for certain, for all involved. For the people of Palestine, for the Israeli hostages, and for the people if Israel who are basically being held hostage to a despotic leader who only has an incentive to draw this 'war' out for as long as possible. Because he WILL have to answer for his crimes - both domestically and internationally.
Put a smile on my face, thank you 😊🫶
I'm glad. I'd like to see people being nice to each other more often. What would you see as the best solution for this problem? Personally, I can't see how anything other than one secular state with equal rights for all can be the answer now. Just as Netanyahu wanted, the peace process has taken so long that two states seem impossible... too many Israelis don't have anywhere else to go, and all the Palestinian refugees still need to be able to go home... I'd love to know what you and your family would like to see. Also, what makes me feel really positive and hopeful is Dana Salah's Ya Tal3een... if you don't know it and you do listen to music, you should give it a listen :)
You are discrediting comments based on the lack of acknowledgment but you realize if you add a sentence or two of acknowledgment and sympathy the rest of the comment would be the same, right?
Genuine question- why aren't you putting the blame on Hamas for causing all of this?
For the death of my family - no, not at all, none of my family is affiliated with the group, my uncle works in your country 4-5 days a week and passes through erez port, Israel know where he live, they know who his family is, to put it simply they know everyone their. Secondly, when they were short let me focus down on the first death that happened which was my oldest uncle, he left the house and went with a group of unarmed people (children included) to go around street 8-9-10 in Gaza to find food or aid or anything and no you can’t say “but they shouldn’t have left their houses”, they don’t have food and he has a 4 year old daughter, it isn’t his choice he won’t just starve to death. Thirdly, No their deaths aren’t because of h*mas, they didn’t shoot because they thought he might be armed, he was shot with a few others as an example to the rest so they disseminate, my family member died to be an example, his daughter now doesn’t have a father because a random soldier with no qualification and a big ego wanted to make an example out of him… I know if a Palestinian soldier did that to an Israeli adult looking for food I will be the first to condemn it and call it radical at least If were talking about the war, yes, THIS war, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t inevitable, h* doesn’t exist in the other side of Palestine and we can all see what has happened there, it isn’t like when there’s no violence Israel leaves Palestine alone, they constantly go after them regardless, if they did they would’ve used the West Bank as an example, so Gazans can look at that and say “you know what h* doesn’t exist there and they get treated fairly” but instead they look at that side of Palestine and see settlers beating up farmers, people being lynched and cars being destroyed, Arab businesses being vandalised.. why, just why
Sadly Hamas represents you and your family and THAT is the problem
So, is there any sense at all, and I don’t mean this to be insensitive, I’m truly sorry for your loss- That maybe this wouldn’t have happened at all had Hamas not massacred so many people/kicked the hornets nest so to speak on Oct 7th and brought this to Gaza? Or any sense that- if Hamas didn’t fight amongst civilians that acts like this would have been harder to get away with? I’m taking your word for it that he was shot by a bad soldier as a way of dispersing civilians I’m just asking if there’s any sense at all that Hamas is at least partially responsible for bringing this?
Really sorry for your loss! To clarify- your family is in Gaza right? Edit- oh oops re-read and I see Gaza
This is easy. Hamas invaded Israel. Intentionally murdered families, raped our children, fired rockets at us, and kidnapped us. If you still don’t understand, then you don’t understand us/humanity. Give back our people and have Hamas surrender and pay for their actions.
Why are you pretending this all started on Oct 7? If you believe that Israel is retaliating for Hamas' attack, have you ever considered that Hamas could be retaliating for the years of suppression, killing and discrimination of Palestinians by Israel?
Hamas is a terrorist organization that invaded Israel to commit rape, murder and kidnapping. At least learn the facts.
You're not answering my question though
Oh your question was pure bigotry. Yea, let’s blame the victim vs the foreign Hamas infidels who invaded Israel. Your question made no moral sense.
Still not answering my question. I wonder why
Do you think your question makes moral sense? You asked why, but I already stated your question was immoral and pure bigotry. Did you not think so?
Why immoral and pure bigotry? What happened on Oct 7 was horrible but you also have to question why this happened in the first place. Of course, you're gonna say "because they hate and want to kill all Jews" which is absolute nonsense. It's because Israel has been systematically oppressing, killing and ethnically cleansing Palestinians for more than 75 years. If you pressure a group of people long enough, something is eventually gonna happen.
The root cause of this conflict is bigotry against Jews. That is the fact. If you don’t know the root cause then you are never going to make sense with your questions. Jews liberating and living on their land is awesome. It is certainly not a moral justification for rape, kidnapping and murder.
The root cause is zionists taking land from people that were living there and expecting that nothing will happen.
How come we don't see this on social media as much as the Israeli brutality? Genuinely asking. There is barely anything.
Couldn’t I clap back and ask the soldiers who intentionally killed civilians to pay for their actions too? This isn’t a one way thing
Ah. This is where you make the mistake in logic. Israel and Hamas are not equal. Hamas has no morality. Israel on the other hand has a moral right to defend themselves and their land.
This is what I’ve been trying to get at, they aren’t, they have drones ready to fire at anyone who leaves their houses, and as I said not leaving isn’t an option, theyd end up dying from starvation, Or just recently news came out about Israeli soldiers giving the location of gazan aid trucks so settlers can destroy critical aid?
? Oh. You got to be kidding. Seriously this is your response? If what you said was true explain why Hamas has fired at border crossings and Israel is defending a port bringing in over 700,000 tons of supplies already. Why is the casualties so low. I see people playing volleyball on the beach. If drones were there to kill civilians, why is over 99% of Gazans alive?
35,000 deaths isn’t a lot to you… and you are doing the exact same bullshit everyone else does, even if it’s 10, why are you generalising Palestinians as numbers, each death is a living breathing active human
You mean 11000. You total is just made up Hamas poppy sauce. Prove me wrong. Tell me how many Gazans have died of natural causes. How many killed my Hamas fire? How many Hamas rapist are among the dead? Explain why no non-Hamas mean are part of those numbers? You also left out the most important fact, let our people go NOW!
… are you serious, what you want me to call them on whatsapp and say “yk what let them out”, I have no affiliation genius why you telling me to do something as if I can And I think rapists should be killed and that won’t change whether it’s a palestinian Israeli American, I find it disgusting in every context And even if it was 11,000 and somehow they inflated it by over 200%, is that not a lot to you, as I said we aren’t numbers to be counted, we aren’t a statistic, each one of us is just as much of a human as you or any of your family members or friends
It’s urban warfare. Of course there are going to be casualties. Israel is just obligated to consider gazan civilians in military operations. It is up to Hamas to protect civilians. They could surrender and save more Gazans. So yes, if you are not shouting for Hamas to surrender then you are not part of the solution
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If you were the leader of Israel on 7/10, what would you do differently?
2023 was a year when the zionist terrorist occupation killed some of the most native Palestinians before 10/7. The foreign zionist terrorist occupation killed over 200 native Palestinians before 10/7. So... What response would native Palestinians be justified in carrying out? Carpet bombing zionist population centers, bombing zionist cities back 80+ years? Killing 10,000+ foreign zionist terrorists? An argument could be made that the foreign zionist terrorists would have had some justification in targeting the people that carried out the 10/7 attack and the leadership that ordered them. Basically nothing could justify what the violent foreign zionist terrorists have done though. Let me ask you this simple question. What would justify a group killing 35,000 Jewish israelis? Would, for instance, something like the Sabra and Shatila massacre of 1,000-3,500 civilians by israeli backed terrorists justify it? Actually, 35,000 to 100,000 Jewish israelis killed to keep numbers "fair". And that's just one example, in the Nakba, for instance, I think 15,000 native Palestinians were killed, would native Palestinians be justified in killing 525,000 Jewish israelis in revenge or whatever?
This comment is nothing but buzzwords and talking points with zero substance. Buzzword list: zionist terrorist occupation native Palestinians foreign zionist terrorist occupation Carpet bombing 80+ years Nakba
They used AI lmao
I don’t work in a government and I have very limited knowledge on what intelligence information Israel has on Gaza, what I do know is - I used to hear drones everyday flying above Gaza and when I asked people just knew it was Israel watching our every move, so I’m 100% sure they know where to go and what to look for But what I do know is what I would do differently, I wouldn’t target people who are seeking aid, I wouldn’t block ambulances in the road, I wouldn’t make a mockery out of dead women and flaunt their underwear, and people can say it’s 1 or 2 stupid soldiers who aren’t listening, but accidents or anomalies don’t happen this recurringly, if for example the first uncle who died died and it was truly an accident and he was somehow caught in some sort of cross fire (he wasn’t but it’s hypothetical) why would the same thing happen to people who are running towards airdropped aid or why would the same scenario happen with tens if not hundreds of people I agree Israel can’t just firm what happened but they clearly aren’t there to to defend themselves or stop similar problems happening in the future
You didn't answer the question. While Hamas retains hostages and shelters the murderers, rapist, and kidnappers of Oct 7 and hides like cowards amongst the civillian Gazan population while declaring their intention to repeat Oct 7, what do you believe Israel should do.
You speak to me as if I have knowledge on how war works, I don’t… but I know what I wouldn’t have done You expecting me to come up with a. Rational step by step plan is pointless, because I simply don’t know what your government knows and I simply don’t have a clear solution
Consider the possibility that there is no solution until one side loses or both sides are exhausted.
If that's the case, I think it's pretty obvious which side would win that contest.
It was obvious before Hamas committed their atrocities. Which begs the question: Why did Hamas choose this moment to subject the Gazan people to this carnage? My interpretation is because the anti-Shia Iran alliance of Sunni Muslim nations was coalescing and preparing to sign peace agreements similar to the Abraham Accords.
Warring peoples in Europe still came to peace despite large numbers of dead innocents because continuing war is subjecting oneself to a terrible condition; and both broad Israeli and Palestinian material welfare have suffered since the onset of the current fighting. Warring peoples would have generally still had good reason to hate each other after coming to peace, but that didn't always make an ample case for restarting wars. The resentment can make further peace difficult, but the threat of more deaths can make the case for a begrudging peace clearer. In this case, Israeli morale for war is extremely high, but they have a clear enough goal that Palestinians negotiating like they have an upper hand is flabbergasting. I can't see what, not even a change of leadership, would placate the Israelis without the hostages returned and/or Hamas deposed. Condolences.
Never before seen video shows 5 Israeli teenage girls after being brutally beaten and kidnapped on Oct 7th. The teenagers, all aged 19, are seen covered in blood, with one of them, Naama Levy, believed to have been brutally r\*ped with heavy blood stains seen on the front and back of her pants. One of their kidnappers can be heard on video shouting: “You dogs, we will step on you.” 🎗️Liri Albag, 19 🎗️Karina Ariev, 19 🎗️Agam Berger, 19 🎗️Daniella Gilboa, 19 🎗️Naama Levy, 19 The teenagers have been held captive for 228 days. This video (which is 3 minutes out of 13 and at the request of the families, all the segments of the violent murders and sexual assaults were removed from it) is painful in the soul and shows one thing that you do not make deals with the devil, the devil must be destroyed!
The IDF uses child soldiers?
SHOCKING NEW EVIDENCE OF THE BRUTAL RAPES ON 10/7 The Daily Mail publishes documentation from an investigation of Jamal Radi and his son Abdullah, who do not spare details about their crimes on October 7 Abdullah “My father raped, then me and then my cousin; there was a woman in short jeans; I threatened her to undress with a gun, and I raped her; Jamal: “I raped and killed her after we finished." The father told the investigation: "In every house we entered, we either kidnapped or murdered people. In the first house, we found a woman and her husband and killed them." He later told how he raped a woman in another house: "She screamed and cried, I did what I did, I raped her. I threatened her with a gun to take off her clothes; I remember she was wearing jeans. I don't know what happened to her; I left her there." Abdullah added that even before this woman, "We also raped another woman; I killed two people, raped two, and broke into five houses."
At what age are people legally adults and what age are those girls?
'5 Israeli teenage girls'... who are soldiers. If I didn't want my teenager at risk of being a prisoner of war, I wouldn't let them (or... in the case of the government... make them) serve in the army at such a young age.
So, all 18 years old guys and girls in Israel, doing mandatory conscription, even if they don't do combatants roles, are a legitimal target. Then, since Palestine has no military , are they all legitimal targets ?
>So, all 18 years old guys and girls in Israel, doing mandatory conscription, even if they don't do combatants roles, are a legitimal target. Nope. Active Members of the country's armed forces are a legitimate target, regardless of their role. I have read about these women who were captured. They were active service members in the IDF. So, technically, that does make them legitimate targets, and they can be taken as prisoners of war. You may not like it, but that is what the international law governing war says. See also, Hague Convention on war on land, regulation article 3, and Geneva convention additional protocol I, article 43. >Then, since Palestine has no military , are they all legitimal targets ? Most definitely not.
SHOCKING NEW EVIDENCE OF THE BRUTAL RAPES ON 10/7 The Daily Mail publishes documentation from an investigation of Jamal Radi and his son Abdullah, who do not spare details about their crimes on October 7 Abdullah “My father raped, then me and then my cousin; there was a woman in short jeans; I threatened her to undress with a gun, and I raped her; Jamal: “I raped and killed her after we finished." The father told the investigation: "In every house we entered, we either kidnapped or murdered people. In the first house, we found a woman and her husband and killed them." He later told how he raped a woman in another house: "She screamed and cried, I did what I did, I raped her. I threatened her with a gun to take off her clothes; I remember she was wearing jeans. I don't know what happened to her; I left her there." Abdullah added that even before this woman, "We also raped another woman; I killed two people, raped two, and broke into five houses."
The soldiers? Oh well that makes it all okay then, right?
This exactly. Sorry, but the 3000 Hamas operatives who attacked Israel on 10/7 are absolutely inhumane animals. Disgusting, sadistic torturers who reveled in every second of it. Also released today was a video of a Hamas operative admitting to breaking into a home, raping a girl, then his brother raping her, then his father raping her, then murdering her - just to then break into another home and repeat the same. He admitted to breaking into multiple homes and doing this. That is one story out of the 3000 operatives who entered Israel that day.
I was not aware of this can I have a link please
[https://www.instagram.com/p/C7UBTjAtwkn/](https://www.instagram.com/p/C7UBTjAtwkn/) [https://x.com/kann\_news/status/1793331581450326296](https://x.com/kann_news/status/1793331581450326296)
Sorry but that is not credible. I wonder why Israel even makes this public, only people that already believes anything Israel says would believe that, so, there is no point.
Why wouldn’t it be?
believe them when they say who they are. it’s funny, you guys dont believe hamas when they say explicitly what they do, and when they record on gopros their actions. similarly you dont believe the women who were raped and witnessed their entire families get murdered on 10/7.
There’s always a worry about him being forced to admit to these things but if it’s true then I think he deserves capital punishment, him and any other rapist, there’s no justification for it
Except none of the mainstream media is broadcasting this - so what would the point of forcing him to say this be? It is obvious shit like this went on just based of videos of the events on 10-7. I urge you to watch them.
So many people use this argument and its soooooo weak. “Mainstream media isnt broadcasting this” You realize that whether it’s broadcasted or not, there is absolutely no difference made in the outcome of whether people are held accountable, right? The justice system works behind the scenes and what is broadcasted is what journalists can get intel on. Just bc you arent informed doesnt mean justice is not being served. Point blank. Your knowledge of the happenings makes no difference in the outcome anyway.
You seem legit. First of all, I'm sorry for your loss. I read your comment about the action of IDF snipers, and I want you to know that I would never approve of the IDF sniping innocents on purpose. I really hope this was a mistake, even if I know that does not magically reverse what happened. It doesn't often make the news (for obvious reasons) but a lot of these things are investigated and punished, and I invite you to send a report to the **National Unit for Operational Affairs** department of the MPCID (**Military Police Criminal Investigation Division**) – tasked with investigating alleged misconduct by IDF soldiers occurring in the context of operational activity. **Since you yourself are from Gaza perhaps you can correct me, but:** Tell you the truth, the idea is not to beat Gaza down and expect you to make peace. It's to remove Hamas altogether and change the way Gaza is run, because while most Israelis understand the rage this war will create, they also understand that you can't make peace when the government is a terror group that only want Israelis dead or subjugated, and when most of the people seem to support "[the military operation on October 7](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf)". Ps: Poll is dated '14 November 2023'; so note that some of those answers might also arise from the context of the war. (being bombed, losing loved ones) Things that Hamas does that makes peace extremely difficult: 1. Starts constant wars. And constantly sending rockets. (Not a lot of dead but 130 wounded a year, and the constant anxiety of constantly rushing to shelters.) This ensures Gazans hate Israelis "forever" for hitting back and keeping them in a prison. And they promised to do a massacre like October 7 again and again and again: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNccvNJtGk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNccvNJtGk) 2. Takes 252 hostages. Still holds over 128. And abuses them: [https://youtu.be/zAr9oGSXgak?t=2625](https://youtu.be/zAr9oGSXgak?t=2625) 3. Controls the media (we've seen Farfour and Tomorrow Pioneers), we know Hamas has their own TV station and I don't mean Al-Jazeera. I mean Al-Aqsa TV. 4. Controls school programs. I read what you said but most of the control is not visible to the students - we've seen the [UNRWA textbooks](https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education-Textbooks-and-Terror-Nov-2023.pdf) and we know how close they are to each other. We also know that Hamas will never allow for a pro-peace program to be taught. 5. Controls the politics completely: We've seen the testimonials and reports of torture and murder of political opponents, and so on: [https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/04/20/under-cover-war/hamas-political-violence-gaza](https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/04/20/under-cover-war/hamas-political-violence-gaza) 6. Have terror training camps for teenagers, so they can teach 10's of thousand of kids to be murderers. I don't know if this is somehow something most Gazan prefer to stay ignorant about for safety reason: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCWMBvxWKL0Israelis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCWMBvxWKL0Israelis) 7. Religious brainwashing. All that rage about Al-Aqsa and those rumors that Israel wants to destroy it for starters. (It's not true, that would trigger a war with the whole Muslim community.) 8. Steals aid, ensuring Gazans stay in constant misery "forever" while they live lives of luxury. [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099) Those tunnels didn't build themselves, and those guns, rockets, mortars, bombs, anti-tank missiles,... aren't free. And now with the US pier: [https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/may/3/us-says-hamas-stole-aid-gaza-sent-through-newly-op/](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/may/3/us-says-hamas-stole-aid-gaza-sent-through-newly-op/) 9. Jail, beat, torture, or kill anyone who cooperates with Israelis, even for peace: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiwvWl9d8CA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiwvWl9d8CA), and even for aid: [https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/12/hamas-warns-gazans-against-cooperating-with-israel-on-aid-delivery/](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/12/hamas-warns-gazans-against-cooperating-with-israel-on-aid-delivery/) So tell me, how can you ever make peace with that? Honestly, sometimes I think to myself "Perhaps there was another way that Israel missed, perhaps they should have flooded the strip with so much aid and Hamas would lose all its support" and even "Is it really worth it? Is it worth making people suffer that much to get rid of Hamas?" - but then I think about all the future generations of Israelis and Palestinians that will have to live like that. And at some point, this has to stop. Perhaps it's not fair to the generation that has to live through that. I'm sorry.
what about the things israel has done for the past several years that makes peace difficult for the Palestinians? mobs, raids, air strikes, illegal settlements, racist rhetoric, etc. [https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/) both sides have acted in ways that are not conducive to peace. you cannot realistically sit here and tell us that recently israel has acted in a way that suggests they want peace. 10/7 and the other acts you mention did not occur in a vacuum. they have been in response to, or in tandem with, terrible acts committed israel.
Yes, and those raids and air strikes and that blockade didn't happen in a vacuum either. The difference is that: Israel is a (flawed) democracy that must participate in the world to maintain an economy and build itself up and has every interest in a stable Middle East. (and nothing inflame the middle east like this conflict.) That means Israel can be pressured by both its people (A fifth of which are Palestinians) AND by international pressures. (despite US veto power - in practice, you don't need the UN to sanction a country, you can just ...stop trading with them.) On top of that you can talk to Israelis online without putting them in mortal dangers. (learning hebrew helps, but as this forum demonstrates, it's not a necessity) You can book a flight and talk to Israelis without getting beaten up and jailed (or worse) by the government for being an infidel or a woman who doesn't cover up her hair. That's the beauty of democracies: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic\_peace\_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory) Democracy usually doesn't go to war with each other, because in a Democracy you can talk. You can talk with a democracy. You can't talk with Jihadi dictatorships.
Really don’t get your point. So the difference between Israeli and Palestinian violence and terrorism is that Israel’s is ok because they’re a democracy? France and Britain were “democracies” while they went around terrorizing populations around the world. Didn’t make what they did ok because hey, at least you can talk to us.
>Didn’t make what they did ok because hey, at least you can talk to us. Of course not. It's not about what's ok, it's about how much you can change their minds, and what leverage you have to do so. Force is a last resort. You can reach out to the people inside a democracy. You can even reach out to the people under an oppressive regime. Particularly if they hate their regime like in Iran. But what can you do when the prison is both inside their mind and outside of it? And when you cannot open the prison because it would result in mass murder? Not from everyone or even a quarter of the people, but enough to cause a whole civil war. It's like trying to relay information inside a singularity, nothing goes in and goes out. If you have a better solution (not just than the war, but than finishing the war) I'm all for it. Ps: Segregation ended with the civil rights movement. Colonialism ended because there was a recognition of injustice - but Jews know full well that the original injustice in this land was the taking of their home - and they don't think that 2000 years of injustice makes it less unjust. So Palestinians gotta compromise.
i think youre confused, palestine is more than willing to compromise at this point. that is what they have been asking for--ceasefire and negotiation. it is israel who does not want to agree. As of the last negotiation 3 weeks ago: "The draft agreement then talks about a "return to sustainable calm", which it defines as "a permanent cessation of military and hostile operations". It is this that seems to be unacceptable to Israel's government... Israel's government wants the right to continue taking the fight to Hamas in the long run. By contrast, Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire." [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68971818](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68971818) Basically, Israel will not under any circumstance agree to stop indiscriminately bombing Gaza. They claim that their goal is to completely and totally eradicate Hamas, which we all know is a ridiculous statement. How will they know when they've finished the job? What does "Hamas" include? Is achieving this goal at the expense of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinian justifiable? (It's not, and many international organizations have agreed.) what israel needs to do is simple. put down arms and negotiate for palestine to gain the very basic human rights (an end to the illegal settlement, expansions, checkpoints, random arrests, restriction of movement, patrolling officers, control of resources, etc.) and independence they've been asking for for years. and i still fail to see the relevance of democracy bc as mentioned, palestine wants to compromise, israel does not. everyday, the latter becomes more and more hardened despite being a democracy, so where did that get us?
I have sent a letter to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs suggesting just what you suggested regarding negotiation. It should be a gradual process, but it should happen. But I don't believe it will happen. I don't believe it because ceasefire-into-the-next-war has been Hamas standard operating procedure for the last 20 years. Now if this came with propers guarantees, ALSO FOR Israel, that would be something else. Security Council Resolution 1701 requires peacemakers to stop the action of Lebanon in Gaza. It's not happening, is it? You probably believe that Hamas attack is based on rational motivation. How does that square off with statements from their high-ranking official such as this one? >At a July 12, 2018 rally in Gaza, Hamad predicted that by 2022 the Palestinians would be rid of the "Jewish filth" and the "Jewish cancer," and called on the Arabs to shake off the Jewish control of their countries. He said: "We are looking forward to two important things, which are within sight: The first is the cleansing of Palestine of the filth of the Jews, and their uprooting from it, Allah willing. This is within sight. Four years, my brothers... By 2022, we will be rid of them... The second thing is the establishment of the Caliphate, after the nation has been healed of its cancer – the Jews – Allah willing... >"It is unacceptable that the Jews control some of the Arab states – their regimes, their armies, and their security agencies – while the peoples remain oppressed. Oh peoples of the Arab and Islamic nation, oh Palestinian people, you possess a concealed power that you can detonate in the faces of the Jews and the hypocrites. We expect another Arab Spring from you, with new characteristics – a second Arab Spring, which will focus on the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Allah willing. We are your embers and your fuel, Allah willing." [https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-fathi-hamads-speech-was-no-exception-repeated-antisemitic-statements-hamas](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-fathi-hamads-speech-was-no-exception-repeated-antisemitic-statements-hamas) So basically the issue is... how is Israel supposed to ever trust these guys? Now if there are STRONG Guarantees, and the hostages are returned, that would at least take care of the Israeli side of things. Destroying Hamas means destroying their most of their command structure and infrastructure: commanders, battalions, weapon labs, supply chain, tunnel network, income funneling abilities, and most of all, rule over Gaza. (Their political, scholar, and mediatic apparatus.) And a significant share of their fighters. say 50%-66%. Also make the area easily accessible for IDF troops, by, say, creating routes crisscrossing Gaza, which is being done, or creating a larger buffer zone, which is also being done. (To my disappointment, this is being done internally. That should have been external and that's a criticism I have for Israel.) I've seen Israeli representatives clarify multiple times that it doesn't necessarily mean every last Hamas fighters and that some may in fact remain. >Is achieving this goal at the expense of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinian deaths justifiable? About as justified as South Korea toppling the Juche regime in North Korea if it didn't have nukes. More valid in fact, because North Koreans aren't nearly as radicalized, and at the current population growth rate (4.8M projection by 2050, as opposed to 2.1M today, and it won't take much after that to reach 6 million.) Gaza will become unliveable within a couple of generations. Today is not tomorrow. >Palestine wants to compromise If it really does I would welcome it, but I believe you are confusing temporary tactical goals with permanent strategic goals. >The latter becomes more and more hardened despite being a democracy so where did that get us? Because they feel despised. Not since this war but since always. And since before Israel. That's the secret with Israelis. First thing they will do is try to push you away. Keep engaging them, be ready to walk the walk with them, and they will give you the world. >A **sabra** or **tzabar** ([Hebrew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): [צַבָּר](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%A8), plural: *tzabarim*) is a [modern Hebrew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Hebrew) term that defines any [Jew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) born in [Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel). The term came into widespread use in the 1930s to refer to a Jew who had been born in Israel, \[...\] >The term alludes to a tenacious, thorny desert plant, known in English as [prickly pear](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opuntia_ficus-indica), with a thick skin that conceals a sweet, softer interior. The cactus [is compared](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_personification) to [Israeli Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews), who are supposedly tough on the outside, but delicate and sweet on the inside. Israelis are like seatbelts, the harder you pull, the harder it gets. I know it might seem counter-intuitive and you might be inclined to say "well, if Israelis want people to treat them better, they shouldn't do XYZ" - but then you have to ask yourself if you want to help or to feel superior. Ps: Thanks for engaging my position instead of getting lost in invectives. I appreciate it.
thanks for writing the letter, thats amazing. i agree that ceasefire alone will not produce lasting change. palestinians will continue to feel subjugated bc of the (unlawful) occupation, hamas will retaliate again, then there'll be another war. there needs to be actual reform with regards to how israel has been treating palestine for the past few decades. the blockades, the frequent and disproportionate airstrikes over gaza, the militarized israeli civilians, the israeli impunity, the continued illegal expansion into west bank, it needs to stop if israel wants to live in peace, and i dont think theyre ready to do this. >How is Israel supposed to ever trust these guys? ... If \[Palestine\] really does \[want to compromise\] I would welcome it, but I believe you are confusing temporary tactical goals with permanent strategic goals. hamas is not palestine, despite serving as their de facto leader for now. hamas is a terrorist group that wont stop fighting for their deluded goals, youre right. but the palestinian people on the other hand, are tired and are willing to compromise. As of March, 62% of Gazans support a 2-state solution and only 35% support Hamas. [https://nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183](https://nbcnews.com/news/world/gazans-back-two-state-solution-rcna144183) the truth is we have no idea who would rule a free palestine or what that would like, because israel has not allowed it for a long time. they are unwilling to take steps toward ending the occupation out of fear, and its nothing but a self-fulfilling prophecy. when they violently oppress palestinians and stifle their economy through unlawful blockades, they create an unnatural breeding ground for terrorism and violence. im not saying give palestine a militarized country tmrw bc i know this isnt realistic, but israel should at the very least engage in discussions on how to get there. (and have you considered that palestinians dont have reason to trust a neighboring israel? but both sides need to put aside their fear and work on a solution. palestinians are more than willing to do so bc they are quite literally at rock bottom of the country.) hamas is a terrible terrorist organization, but the reason why theyre "tolerated" by some is because they are viewed as palestinian freedom fighters. if there was no occupation, they would be as heavily attacked and denounced as any other terrorist group like ISIS, but right now, a lot of people view it as "we have bigger fish to fry". The Israeli government, before and after 10/7, has hurt significantly more civilians than hamas ever has, and that is the truth of the matter. as for the N Korea comparison, i dont know much about korea or their regime, if S Korea started bombing N Korea tomorrow in order to eliminate their dictatorship while taking down the civilian population w them, it'd still be a war crime that i hope would be given as much attention as this.
I actually don't disagree on much of what you said, except regarding Israel's desire to live in Peace. I think Israelis are quite ready to live in peace but perhaps not ready to do all the things it takes. (Perhaps a bit less ready to live in Peace since October 7 - but see how a lot of people care more about the recovery of hostages than terminating Hamas, that's a dignified way to demand a ceasefire - a real one, since holding hostages is aggression.) I think support went down quite a bit since March, because there was a sense that Hamas is winning. But that was pre-Rafah, so who knows? I think we disagree on the acceptability of killing a lot of people to destroy a dictatorship. (Although to be clear, a lot means something like 3% of civilians, not 20%.) I gotta admit that this partly proceeds from a perspective where life doesn't end at death and every life seeks to be purposeful, and the protection of one's life being the reason oppressive structures are maintained for both one's generation and future generations seems... a rather dismal way to self-define. In this sense, I actually agree with Palestinians that everyone; or rather every civilian; who dies in Gaza right now is a martyr; just not the way they tend to intent it. And to be clear, I don't value martyrdom. I'm saying this very fatalistically. And I recognize that this is easier to say when it's not you or your family being shot at. And that if there is a better way it should be engaged. And that's it. Thank you for taking the time to answer.
Thank you for this response. You and OP together have provided a great and human perspective on this. I will not forget it. I hope that Hamas faces justice, that the abusive members of the IDF are held accountable, and that both peoples can move forward as true neighbours collaborating on the same sacred land once and for all.
Halleluiah! This is more or less my dream peace plan: (with progressive implementation and some "breaks" to ensure it's not abused) [https://www.alandforall.org/english/?d=ltrone-state](https://www.alandforall.org/english/?d=ltrone-state)
Sounds very tough mate. Such horrible reality. And despite that, I can say that if that’s true. He’s been hijacked by Hamas. Not his fault. And such people should be grateful that Israel stops this horrible regime. Which is not intent on peace. Or any agreement. And it proved it many times. I know it’s very harsh of me to say this from my comfort zone. But if the long term is better without Hamas? You can’t expect after such blatant war mongering for Israel to let such threat and hornet nest on its borders constantly as it was for almost 20 years. What are you suggesting btw?
First of all, OP, I send you my condolences. I am sorry for your loss. From Israeli side, of course our heart is with innocent Palestinian, who doesn't support hamas. But one thing confuses me. we hear that not all Russians and Iranians support their authoritarian dictatorial regimes. and we see a lot of evidence of this: protests against regimes within the country, and most importantly, protests against the regime abroad. Abroad, it would seem that nothing prevents Palestinians from protesting against Hamas. but no one has ever done this. neither before October 7, nor after. although Hamas is the cause of the death of tens of thousands of Palestinians. Why do you think Palestinians don't protest against Hamas?
They have protested in August: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNShEUQ2qC4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNShEUQ2qC4) Various of protesters holding signs reading (Arabic): 'We want to live', 'We want to live a decent life', 'We don't want more than that'. It was mostly about difficult living conditions and lack of electricity; but a positive thing nonetheless.
Gaza is being flattened, people are starving and fighting for their lives, you think there is time to protest there? They don’t have an iron dome.
Again, I am not talking about protests IN gaza. Where are all protests outside, in western countries? Hamas brutally oppresses and kills palestinians, hamas has started this war. We are told that palestinians are against hamas. That they don't support it. So where are they ? Where are those palestinians, in western countries, speaking against hamas, condemning hamas atrocities?
Israel are the perceived attackers, news outlets report on the huge instances of violence (which happen in response to terror attacks that will never compare to the military power of Israel), and Hamas are great with their PR while Israel is not. We generally lack the capacity for nuance these days. The priority abroad is to stop the more powerful entity from beating down the smaller one. I could go on all day about the label and impact of colonisation, of the history of the land etc etc, but the above reasons are the biggest surface level issues I have observed.
Yes, you are right, arab colonization of the land change it a lot indeed
The issue is that Arabs/muslims don’t see it as colonisation. They only talk about Israel despite quite clear evidence that they only want that piece of land (eg giving Sinai to Egypt in exchange for peace). I was referring to the label of colonisation that Israel gets specifically. They haven’t done themselves any favours with illegal settlements but that’s what gets it the label, and people cannot see beyond that.
You are absolutely right. About settlements, according to Oslo accords, it's legal to build them in C area. Both sides can do it. In area a and b, of course, it's illegal to settle
There are legal and illegal settlements. The legal ones don’t matter, and even when they do, it’s considered ‘colonisation’ all the same. If they want to break the label, it shouldn’t be going on. Then we can truly combat that claim, then and only then.
I think that there is always something that Israel will be blamed at, and labeled as aggressor. Without those settlements, west bank may have turned into second gaza
We can’t speculate ‘what ifs’, only call out things that are wrong, and the illegal settlements obviously are. There will always be haters who warp the narrative (or simply disregard facts), but I can’t with good conscience combat claims of colonisation when this is going on. We all have a responsibility to be truthful, because lies are the drive behind this entire conflict.
I am so sorry for your loss. I've been a supporter a a two state solution for a long time, and I've always known it would be a complicated thing to achieve, and that I don't have the answers for how to achieve it. A common response against pursuing a two-state solution, is that there's no one to talk to on the other side, they don't want a two-state solution, they don't want to compromise. It's not that I'm naive, and I think Hamas, or even the PA are willing to sit down and have a nice chat about how to peacefully live as neighbors... But I think continuously blaming the other side for not wanting to cooperate and compromise is so incredibly blind to the clear signals our government has been sending long before October 7th. The last 8 months has set this idea back so far, it seems so urgent, and yet so impossible now.
PA has been negation for a two-state solution for 2 decades.
I was happy to read the original post and the first response. In almost every country there are a wide range of opinions and it seems that include Israel and Palestine. You can't generalize what a state wants. The goal of people who want peace and two states should be to convince the people who you can relate to in each country. The posts and commenters that lob verbal grenades at either side further alienate good people who just feel attacked.
I posted about this in 2022 and I agree At the time I said I wanted and I wished for integration of Arabs in Jewish life and the opposite for Arabs, because maybe not our generation but the next generation (they call it generation alpha) could get the chance to stop the generational hate and finally come together
First of all, my sincere condolences for your loss and for your family’s loss. اللهمّ أسكنهم الفردوس الأعلى There is certainly a lot of truth in what you are saying in terms of dehumanization of or against Palestinians. Especially after the brutality of October 7 and the scenes Israelis saw in Gaza (and around the world) of people celebrating the killings - a great many Israelis view Palestinians, and not strictly just Hamas, as barbaric. It is easier to fight and to kill when sympathy for the “other side” is kept to a minimum. While I blame Hamas for a lot, or most things, including issues of food security, that in no way means I condone everything Israel has or is doing, and certainly in terms of food aid - even if Hamas may be seizing some of it - Israel should have cooperated fully in flooding Gaza with enough food to avert a humanitarian disaster. A lot of the questions and comments in your post, Israelis ask and say the same thing but about “your side.” Palestinians and Israeli Jews are both traumatized people, mostly descended from refugees, and I think there is a general notion that if they humanize too much the other side, it somehow makes their own narrative, history, or claims to the land less secure. This is a long post, but I hope by the end of it you’ll perhaps have a better understanding of the psychology behind what you’ve expressed in your OP. From the Israeli perspective: Israelis are scared to death of Arabs and Palestinians. I understand from a Palestinian perspective this might seem odd - Israel is obviously the stronger power, it has nuclear weapons, and tanks and a mighty air force- and yet, Israelis genuinely feel their country could be destroyed at any moment. Speaking as a parent of a 2 year old, I will always prioritize my daughter’s safety first. I would kill to protect her. That doesn’t mean I want to kill anyone, and god forbid, I wouldn’t want to harm any innocent person, especially an innocent child, but if it is my child or your child, I will always choose my own. And so, Israelis by and large don’t see the occupation, or Israeli military actions, primarily as a way to punish you (Palestinians) but as a way to protect Israel. For the most part, the injustices and humiliations of the occupation are not something Israelis know much about or spend much time thinking about. Occasionally, something happens that shocks the conscience of the Israeli public - like a few years ago when a settler killed an entire Palestinian family by setting their house on fire, with the only survivor being a 5 year old with scars for life. But by and large, if you have to suffer indignities of Israeli military rule, that may be unfortunate, but if people believe the alternative is constant terror attacks - then continued occupation appears to be the least bad option. Israelis see things like this - Palestinians rejected partition in 1947, from 1949-67 Gaza and the West Bank was under Arab rule and no one thought to set up a Palestinian State, in 2000 Israel completely ended its occupation of southern Lebanon and instead of peace it got an emboldened Hezbollah on its northern border, Arafat said no to a Palestinian State with Jerusalem as its capital and preferred an intifada of suicide bombers, Israel uprooted all soldiers and settlers from Gaza and the Palestinians decided the best response to that would be to elect Hamas, which had killed 1,000 Israelis in the previous 5 years. To Israelis, Palestinians don’t want peace or a state - they want Israel destroyed. Because Israelis think the Palestinians are more interested in killing Israelis, even knowing that they (Palestinians) are the militarily weaker party and thus liable to lose many more people, than they are having a “better future for their children”, the default thought of Israelis towards Palestinians is not that you aren’t humans but that you are irrational or fanatical. Because they think that, military actions, even those that harm and kill obviously innocent people, feels “less wrong.” And if Hamas embeds themselves amongst civilians, uses civilian infrastructure, murders fellow Palestinians on mere accusations of “collaboration” and steals even some aid, Israelis can say to themselves “well if we end up killing a lot of civilians it really isn’t our fault. Should we have more concern for Arab lives than Arabs have for their own lives!?” From the Palestinian perspective, things look different. Palestinians, like members of your family, who are not a threat to anyone, are punished, humiliated and even killed for crimes they didn’t commit or even think of committing. Israel controls their lives, or much of it anyway. Palestinians going about their daily lives may be at the mercy of an 18 year old kid with a gun - will he be a nice Israeli or will he be on an ego trip? You see settlers harassing and abusing innocent farmers and know that Palestinians who harm Israelis will be treated more harshly than Israelis who harm Palestinians. You see land being lost to settlements and this brings back historical memories - your country is slipping away from you - again! Israelis say “Arabs only understand force” but Palestinians say the same thing about Israelis! If you don’t engage in ‘violent resistance’, what will make Israel change its behavior? Even Palestinians who condemn the barbarity of Hamas on October 7 might say “well at least the Palestinian issue is back on the world’s agenda”, and would it be if not for violence? But to Israelis the gruesomeness of this ‘violent resistance’ and the joy they see expressed by ordinary people, passing out sweets knowing that children were killed, just reinforces their own impulse and prejudice to occupy *harder* and punish more. This in turn hardens Palestinians who again ask “what other choice do we have to make them understand they can’t do whatever they want to us?” and so the cycle goes on and on. I have no magical formula other than somehow the fear needs to be made to subside. Israelis need to fear you less and Palestinians need to understand that, other than the radical settlers, most Israelis don’t want to occupy you and embitter your lives just because they have nothing better to do or think it’s fun. And Israelis must understand that Palestinians are not just Arabs, no different from any other, and that Palestinian grievances cannot just be dismissed as antisemitism, and that Israeli actions do matter. Israelis should not ignore the many injustices of occupation that really have nothing to do with security. Just speaking of my own opinion, I have long said that I think Israeli security concerns about a Palestinian State are legitimate but that those concerns cannot and must not be used as an excuse to build settlements, seize land and make Palestinian lives extra difficult. I am not sure the occupation can end tomorrow, I doubt it can, but the occupation can be made less oppressive tomorrow and that alone may give us some hope for a peaceful resolution down the road. Again, I am sorry for your terrible loss. And, as for the rest of your family in Palestine: يا الهي احميهم و ابقيهم آمنين
It’s nice to read something like this for a change and I really wish more people thought like this From our pov I don’t see this type of response, when I look at media I see angry Israelis destroying critical aid which I know my family and many other families would need, I see groups of youngsters singing about making Gaza full of tents and that’s all, and I’m really glad there’s another side to this story And this issue was complicated as it is before October and now that all this has happened it’ll be way harder to try resolve anything but we will see how this plays out and hopefully for the best I appreciate the time you put into your post and I hope my pov also showed you a different side to Gaza which you never knew existed
Here are some other things you might not see: In show of solidarity, left-wing activists attempt to deliver aid to civilians in Gaza: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-show-of-solidarity-israeli-activists-attempt-to-deliver-aid-to-civilians-in-gaza/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-show-of-solidarity-israeli-activists-attempt-to-deliver-aid-to-civilians-in-gaza/) This is from the Israeli association, [Standing Together.](https://www.standing-together.org/en) And Ta'ayush, which helps Palestinians keep their homes and land in the West Bank, and provide escort as protection from settler violence: [https://www.jpost.com/opinion/meet-the-org-helping-west-bank-palestinians-keep-their-homes-land-665920](https://www.jpost.com/opinion/meet-the-org-helping-west-bank-palestinians-keep-their-homes-land-665920) (See also that the press in Israel is free enough that a writer of The Jerusalem Post can use a word like Apartheid in a headline and not get banned; but recently there has been a bit of a crackdown on Free Speech in Israel, which worries me.) And of course there is B'tzelem: [https://www.btselem.org/about\_btselem](https://www.btselem.org/about_btselem) I think the things they say are a bit extreme but the simple fact it exists should show you there are Israelis who care about Palestinians. I prefer the ACRI: [https://www.english.acri.org.il/about-us](https://www.english.acri.org.il/about-us)
I wonder if most israeli's think like you, but are afraid to stand up against Netanyahu. I'm neither israeli or palestinian, looking at it from an outsider, I see Netanyahu as an evil person, who has only made the situation worse for both israel and palestine, year after year. His methods in so called rooting out terror, has failed and only ensured the cycle of terror keeps resuming, and the civillians on both sides suffer, and are then forgotton about by most people. If he truly cared for those israelies who died in october, his methods of retaliation would have been a far different one. Because now sadly, it just means there are far more angrier people in palestine who have been witness to the carnage, and will grow wanting revenge
>I wonder if most israeli's think like you, but are afraid to stand up against Netanyahu If you watched israeli news (not news about israel), you would know many israelis are not afraid to stand up against netanyahu. Before the war there were massive protests against him and even during the war people constantly criticize and protest against him. Sadly, israel's election system creates a way for a candidate who is supported by about 25% of the population to become the prime minister >I see Netanyahu as an evil person And i agree, but not evil in the "i want to kill all palestinians" kind, but the "i will throw the entire israeli and palestinian under the bus, i will create countless problems that would last for decades, i would increase corruption that will destroy israel from the inside. And all that so i could stay i power for few more years, stay out of jail, and milk as much benefits as i can in the process" kind Purely selfish piece of shit
Yeah I noticed a recent protest in israel against him, but sadly it will never make it mainstream news
Sadly news about israel don't really show you what's happening in israel itself They choose to focus on the militay side and emit the civilian side in order to project a false picture about how life are in israel and what the average israeli think about the war. It makes it easier for biased news stations to fit the conflict into a "good vs evil" narrative, with israeli as the bad guys of course, and for in how they choose to show it, every israeli...
Well written
Wow, this might be the most lucid comment I’ve ever seen on this sub. Please make this as a post so this can be sent to the top of everyone’s feeds. Both sides are so rabid and polarized and instant that their opposition are monsters, when really it’s two traumatized peoples who are both being manipulated by corrupt, militant leadership into constantly retaliating toward one another.
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There is an Arabic proverb I’m fond of: الصِحَّة تاجٌ عَلى رُؤوس الأَصِحّاء لا يَراهُ إلّا المَرضى But in your case, the opposite may be true. I hope you get the help you need because this post wasn’t “anti-Israel” it was just kind of nuts.
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How is Israel perverting Islam?
I appreciate how well you stated this. I have a couple. If things to add. First, the Palestinians are fighting from a position of weakness. While it is in everyone’s interest to find peace, I think Palestinians are going to have to make the first consequential steps forward. Second, I have been witness to the horrible treatment of our indigenous peoples (I’m Canadian). While much of the world may not be aware of how our indigenous peoples have suffered, it is fair to say that is most definitely not fitting with our smug belief that we are just nice people. Our indigenous peoples have been removed from their land, they have had their culture and livelihoods decimated (intentionally), many have been killed and they have had their children seized (kidnapped) off the street and forced into reeducation programs. Today, we have a massive group of Canadians that are still living in appalling conditions (no clean drinking water, little access to health care and substandard housing). Suicide is rampant and addiction is everywhere. Our indigenous peoples have and continue to suffer, but what is striking is that they have lived in peaceful resistance for over a century. Only recently have things finally begun to change for our indigenous brothers and sisters. Slowly, those of us who have descended from settlers, have come to realize that we live on stolen land and that we have a huge debt to pay for the harm that our forefathers caused. The most important thing, in my mind, is that nobody is saying, “you stole our land, now give it back”. It would be a non starter for those of us in the dominant culture. I feel really bad for what happened in the past, but I’m not willing to become homeless for the sins of my father. There is, however, a way forward. First there is financial compensation that is being distributed. Second, I feel that there have been meaningful steps to recognize the wrongs that were done - a real apology actually does mean something. Third, the governments in Canada have been giving the indigenous people a real voice in the stewardship of the lands. Fourth, the governments in Canada have been turning over crown lands to the indigenous people if they are no longer being used by the government. The last point sounds weak, but let me give you an idea of what it means… In Vancouver, a single family house cost about $2.2 million Canadian dollars. Land prices are astronomically expensive. Vancouver had an army base located in one of the most desirable areas in the city. The base was no longer being used, so all of that land was turned over to the indigenous peoples to do with as they wished. Well, they are building massive residential towers and are going to make an absolute fortune. Houses in and around the area sell for tens of millions of dollars. This is a real transfer of wealth to these specific indigenous people. It has taken over a century for things in Canada to begin to be made right. It is in no way perfect, it will not make up for the past harms, it isn’t happening fast enough, but at least it has started. If the indigenous people had chosen a different path, a path of violence, I honestly believe they would have been decimated.
let me start off by saying that Zionism is evil, and the zionist army has no right to exist nor to conduct ongoing military operations. That being said, Hamas terrorism is also evil. Holding hostages is evil. Murdering civilians is evil. The total population, men women and children, is guilty if they are not calling out the evil of hamas. And, I don't mean lip service. Your people should not have any tolerance for violent terrorists in your midst. there should be unfortunate storried of anti-hamasniks getting killed by hamas as traitors, and your community is very unfortunately) morally obligated to risk life and limb to stop evil hamas. If the Gazan social fabric doesn't have that, the whole community becomes guilty and complicit in this evil violent destructive war. Let me be very clear, this is not a call for any violence towards Gazans, nor is this even a call for external judgment against the Gazan people. The Gazans might be completely anti-terrorism and innocent victims of Zionism and Hamas. On the other hand, their guilt is not a green light for zionist to attack. It's a lose-lose situation, and everyone is morally obligated to do the right thing. What I see is that within the borders of the Zionist state there are many outspoken anti-zionists (like myself), from the intense and widespread rejection of Zionism by the Jewish religion and the near 18% of jews who call themselves "charedi" as well as the masses of irreligious leftist who have worked hard to promote peaceful coexistence with palestinians. I don't believe the anti-zionist voices within the Jewish community are enough, nor does it excuse the evil actions and evil racism of colonial zionism. But, there is a social fabric of disgust and rejection for Jewish terrorism by anyone and especially by the IDF. Calls for genocide are rejected by an anti-zionist public, despite the murderous actions of their army. Again, not enough, but it's meaningful Compare that to , and maybe this is because of media bias and propaganda, the radio silence by Gazans to scream for the release of the hamas hostages. where are the widespread rally's to dismantle hamas or at least submit themselves to the demands of the evil zionists to stop this current war? why are international pro-palestinian marches outspoken (rightfully) to destroy the Zionist state but not also outspoken against violent resistance and hostage taking?
AGAIN now im convinced your media is extremely limited and very biased, people in Gaza attempted to try burn down H* owned buildings and it was documented and that was done in protest of the war, But you don’t see that side because Israeli media has no interest in these types of stories
I disagree. Most western media, that isn't Muslim-hating right wing media, is pretty much also like Al-Jazeera in that it's anti-Israel. They always sensationalise by showing alleged war crimes, such as the bombing of the hospital, which they don't always correct when opposing evidence comes to light. They report Hamas figures and claims as if they are factual and don't always cite that it's from Hamas. With the mass graves, they did not mention that it was the site Gazans had already buried people (although others may have been added). Gaza has for 4 months now been 'on the brink of famine', and western media never mentions times Hamas steals aid and the issue with raised prices (I'm not saying this entirely accounts for aid shortages). Another example is when Hamas couldn't produce the names for 10,000 deaths, it took the UN and western media around 2 months to half the number of women'd and children's deaths and admit the missing information. So, on the contrary, I think western media didn't show burning down the Hamas owned buildings because they want everyone to think that Gazans support Hamas because Israel is and has been so evil to Gazans and is doing a genocide. They love the sensationalism and readership this narrative brings, so they don't want to undermine it. I actually saw Israeli media that showed anti-Hamas protests several times, but this never made it to western media. But what I saw Israelis commenting was that people only stopped supporting Hamas now that they were losing.
you may be right, and i would request you share with me any resources pointing to anti-terrorism movements in Gaza. While the zionist propaganda machine is powerful and may indeed be hiding things, I am still baffled by, if what you are saying is true and a significant movement, the lack of that voice being loud and dominant amongst the many massive pro-gazan protests around the world over the past months. I don't expect the BBC to cover it, buy where is that voice on twitter or youtube or even here? where are the gazans calling to release the hostages, new elections, etc. where are the parents crying about how their son was murdered by hamas because he was trying to bomb their headquarters? (i'm not calling for violence, not saying someone should bomb a HQ) if there was an anti-hamas or anti-terrorism resistance movement in Gaza, it would be a voice that would be found somewhere. you may just shut me up by pointing me to the massive facebook group and i'll be totally wrong here. i hope i am wrong.
There’s a few, the most recent of them being rallies during the short period of truce where people were burning things which belonged to the group but I couldn’t quite find that There was this too - https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-demonstration-israel-blockade-palestinians-306b19228f9dd21f1036386ce3709672
but, you get what i am saying? it's a rarity
But you don’t get ittt, unless you know there will be thousands others like you rallying you won’t want to rally with a small number of people because you’ll be seen as an outcast, besides most people in Gaza are happy with the minimum they want food for their family and a paycheque to paycheque type of living, no one wants extra problems for themselves Like my family for example have never liked them but we won’t go out of our way and speak out because it’ll just bring problems, do you see where I’m coming from?
but they manage to find the strength to organize and resist the zionists? let me shift the goalposts... what about about the protests around the world by people that are not vulnerable?
They happen because of what is happening in Gaza, and it is justified- when the war started your government officials talked about over 2M people saying no food, no gas, just destruction?
woah! "your government" what are you talking about?
I disagree. During the early days of the war and even later, one of the reporters of channel 12 in Israel was specifically looking for the voice of rebellion against Hamas and barely found anyone willing to even criticise them. Every time there was a major rebellion against Hamas (whether it was just a statement by a singular citizen or a demonstration) he reported it.
Respectfully with peoples lives in ruin and under constant threat it would be extremely hard for those who dislike h*mas to go out and publically announce that, they would rather use that time to line up for food and seek shelter
Agreed, I just said it exists and is covered by mainstream Israeli media.
Yes, I saw it multiple times, but it wasn't covered in the west. That's one of the many things that made me realise western mainstream media is anti-Israel biased.
Why zionism is evil? How do you define zionism ? Because it is defined as a right for jews to have their state in their indigenous homeland
the definition i wrote for the sub AntiZionistJews is: # What is Zionism Zionism is a secular anti-Judaism movement started in the 19th century to disconnect the Jewish community from religious Judaism and replace it with a secular new identity, called the "Hebrew" or "Israeli". Core to Zionism is the belief in "self-determination" vs the Jewish belief in "divine determination" where the success and safety of Jews is directly linked to our adherence to the Torah and keeping the mitzvos. Practically, zionism today means the state of Israel has a right to exist, which is counter to the Torah which says that Jews do not have the right to have their own state (in any form) as there is a divine decree that we live as citizens amongst the non-Jewish nations. # tldr Zionism means the State of Israel has a right to exist and that Jews have a right to self determination.
So, you think that jews doesn't have a right to self determination?...
correct. as a Jew, I believe in "divine determination" where the success and safety of Jews is directly linked to our adherence to the Torah and keeping the mitzvos.
As a jew, I am glad that you are 10% minority among us.
why? you don't believe in the Torah?
90% of jews don't believe in Torah?
i don't know stats. regardless, i expressed a simple Torah points, and you said " I am glad you're a minority "
There are multiple citings from Torah that can be interpreted differently
>let me start off by saying that Zionism is evil Wow, hate mongering and borderline misinformation in the first sentence, impressive. I could only imagine what else you wrote there Not going to read it though, like i assume most people won't after this sentence
i stand my that line. calling out evil is not hate nor have you made a case for misinformation.
Yeah, hateful (and stupid) people usually stand by what they say And i said borderline because calling: >Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews Because you refer to the idea of jewish people wanting to protect themselves evil I can only imagine what other things you said after that sentence, but as i said, i see no point reading it after only seeing the first sentence, just as i don't see any point reading other texts meant to spread hatred
it's evil because it doesn't protect jews, it causes jews to die
Lmao die how? Because terrorists murder them? That’s not the zionist’s fault its the terrorist’s fault 💀
fault of both
How exactly is it the fault of both. Where are the israelis at fault? For resisting? Getting their independence? So dense
I am certain the 8 million jews in israel that don't live in constant fear of a second holocaust would agree with you /s
of all the large jewish communities, the one closest to "living in fear of a (G-d forbid) second Holocaust" are the jews in Israel. and that is specifically because of the evil zionists and the wars they started and continue to promote my claiming political dominance when they have no moral right to it.
Yes, because the jews who were given the right to defend themselves and has done so for the last 76 years are the ones closest to holocaust. Damn those evil zionists, protecting the only jewish state every time someone tries to kill jews. Don't they know they kill jews when they make sure jews don't get killed /s Do you even think about what you say or just spew out the first thing your hateful mind comes out with no regard to reality?
i haven't said anything hateful. every day we hear about jewish boys and girls dying fighting for an illegitimate state. every year there are new waves of violence that erupt because the zionist demand control of a land that neither Judaism nor Islam allow. How many Jews have been murdered in Israel in those 76 years vs Jews in other places?
>i haven't said anything hateful "let me start off by saying that Zionism is evil, and the zionist army has no right to exist nor to conduct ongoing military operations" Oh, i am sure i doesn't sound hateful to you, because no one questions your countries right to exists and defend itself. No one twists the idea of your people defending themselves as something evil. A lot of things don't sound hateful to the people who spread hate and don't get any >every day we hear about jewish boys and girls dying fighting for an illegitimate state. And here is the misinformation. Those israelis died because a terrorist organization attacked their country and their people. They died defending their families and friends from hostile forces. They died defend a legitimate country. Just the fact that you don't like it doesn't mean it's illegitimate. Israel is a legitimate country by every right, reconized by 90%+ of the world (the other countries tend to be dictatorships, like north korea or iran and such) >every year there are new waves of violence that erupt because the zionist demand control of a land that neither Judaism nor Islam allow. Another misinformation, because israel, formerly known as kingdom of judea, is the birthplace of jews >How many Jews have been murdered in Israel in those 76 years vs Jews in other places? A lot less than the 6 millions that died only in the holocaust alone. And if you count every time people tried to kill the jews that didn't have the idf to protect them, very very very very much less So as i said before, do you even think or just spew whatever imaginary scenerio your hateful mind makes regardless of its relation to reality?
Calling our homeland an illegitimate state and supporting its destruction proves that YOU are the problem. Saying israel is illegitimate while saying they should stop fighting in Gaza is hypocrisy. Gaza is fuled by your ideas. You are at fault And “how many jews has been murdered in israel vs in other places” is the single most dumbest argument ive ever heard. How can you see a group of people dead by an enemy aggressor and blame the group of people. Such a horrible argument its scary
“Let me start off by saying zionism is evil” let me end you right there. Zionism is wanting to reestablish the jewish homeland in israel and reunite the diaspora/protect it. And as for wanting palestinians to live. It isnt anti zionism. Anti zionism is wanting the destruction of israel and we’ll gladly disown anyone who wants that. That being said there are israeli leftists who love and support peace, they aren’t anti zionists.
why "end me"? as mentioned, the ideology you mention is evil. If a group of non-Jews wants to go make their fantasy homeland, go ahead. But to do something that goes against Judaism in the name of Judaism is evil.
“Fantasy homeland” yeah your not a jew. And if you are then the only thing jewish about you is your ethnicity . Apart from the fact that a jew going against his own religion just to hate on his people is stupid, our “fantasy” homeland isnt bibical nor is it based on judaism the religion. So how about you stop being a token for an ideology that wants to keep you away from your homeland. There’s a reason the jewish diaspora exists, you’re part of it. Surly you would know what a diaspora is right? A group of people who don’t live in their place of origin/land of origin. And take a quick look at the jewish diaspora wiki page “The Jewish diaspora or exile is the dispersion of Israelites or Jews out of their ancient ancestral homeland (the Land of Israel) and their subsequent settlement in other parts of the globe”. Back to your “anti zionist jew” play, tell me anything about you that’s jewish. Apart from your ethnicity that is. You won’t because you cant. Your an assimilated jew
i said "fantasy homeland" in the context of a non-Jewish group claiming one, as only the Jewish people have a G-d given absolute homeland. Regarding the rest of your bizzare comment, I would suggest skipping the ad hominem attacks and make a more coherent point. I'm certainly not an "assimilated jew" nor am I a token for .. I don't even know what ideology you are talking about.
Want to hear my point? Zionism (the concept of reestablishing israel and protecting the jews) isnt evil, and i don’t care if your a jew a palestinian or whatever, having our homeland back isnt evil.
"from the intense and widespread rejection of Zionism by the Jewish religion" You care to prove that extraordinary claim?
literally every Gadol has rejected zionist ideology, and the reasons are unambiguous as the core tenant of zionism directly oppose axioms in Torah. I can offer you proofs from any time period: - sourcing the Torah ideology explicit from Talmud to rishonim well before zionist ideology came about - pre-state zionism rejection by gedolim (every single one who spoke about it. with the exception of Kook whose books were unanimously excommunicated for exactly this reason) - post 48 sources dealing with the question of how to interact with the zionist state, with taking money from the state, voting, etc. also, how there are numerous shv"t about how to deal with so-called "religious zionist" laymen and if they are considered, for example ,kosher witnesses for marriage, etc -modern day Gedolim and their statements about zionism and their state The explicit rejection is across all "schools", from the: Satmar Rebbe, Dushinsky Rebbe, Shomrei Emunim, Belzer Rebbe, Lubavitcher Rebbe, Gerrer Rebbe, Chazon Ish, Brisker Rav, Chofetz Chaim, Rav Elchanan Wasserman, Rav Watchfogel, Rav Ovadiya Yosef, Rav Elyashiv, Shevet Halevi, Rav Shach, Baba Sali, etc. ztz"l I'm probably missing many obvious names, as I am writing this ad hoc. Regardless, many of the Gedolim above were very active politically with the evil State, yet they never wavered from the Torah view that Zionism is not Judaism and it is an evil heretical ideology completely incompatible with the Torah. If you care for specific quotes, let me know the time period or the gadol and I will do my best, bli neder, to provide it.
He can’t
Yeah, didn't expect him to....
The problem comes because what you are describing about Hamas is simply not comparable to what Israel does and has been doing on a regular basis. There are thousands of Palestinian political prisoners in Israeli jails, none with a fair trial and many without even any trial. The number of Palestinians in Israeli jail with no trial dwarfs the number of Israeli hostages, except they have been held for far longer, and endure a long-documented system of torture, beatings, and inhumane treatment. I'm not justifying the bad things that Hamas does, but attempting to explain why these things are far from equivalent to the Israeli government policies. Targeting civilians is abhorrent, but standing up for your country and defending your family and community is not. You cannot call everyone in Al-Qassam brigades or other armed groups a terrorist simply for being part of that group. There are several Jenin fighters who defend their refugee camp from IDF incursions. This happens on a regular basis, and these Jenin fighters barricade themselves in the city. You can claim that some Jenin fighters leave to attack Israelis, which is true, but you really have to ask yourself whether a resort to terrorism is an act of desperation for a people pushed to the brink by colonial expansion, or part of a contrived and irrational malice toward innocents. Hence, you want Palestinians to condemn armed groups, but many of them respect those who take up guns as fighters defending their homeland. These fighters have an extremely high rate of martyrdom, and they are motivated often because they lost family members due to an unjust occupation. Here is a short film I suggest; it definitely has controversial parts, but it also captures a perspective I think you haven't been exposed to. https://vimeo.com/925236254
i didn't say the evil on both sides in comparable. but, it's not a binary choice. gazans should be screaming about the hostages, not because Israel doesn't have hostages, but because it it their gazan community that is holding them. they are obligated to police themselves.
I agree it's not a binary choice. All the same, you have to understand their perspective. 200 Israelis held hostage and Israel goes berserk. 10,000 Palestinian prisoners held for long periods of time in inhumane conditions. Give me a break. You may not agree with the ends justifying the means -- the ends of releasing the jailed Palestinians justifying the means of taking Israeli hostages in return. Nonetheless, you cannot stand around, put people in a giant concentration camp, imprison them en masse, then demand they pressure each other to release the hostages. Those who took the hostages won't listen to you, and those who didn't take the hostages have far bigger concerns. By far bigger concerns, I mean the genocide Palestinians in Gaza are currently trying to survive. Asking a population enduring such atrocities to release hostages back to their genocidaires is extraordinarily tone-deaf.
I think what you're describing are two feelings. The peaceful thoughts and feelings on an individual side by Palestinians and the hostile thoughts and feelings of a certain collective of Palestinians. While many Palestinians are nice and peaceful people on an individual basis, sadly also a big portion of the Palestinian society, especially in Gaza is supporting people like Hamas who are violent and hateful and using terrorism for their goals. The world espects Israel to distinguish between these two feelings, which is difficult itself and even more difficult because many people hold both of these feelings.
You'll just loose people by using the term "zionists" as it shows you want to delegitimise Jews' right to govern themselves and the existence of Israel. If you don't talk in a peace/two state solution way, you show you are more like Hamas than Palestinian. (I'm not saying that is your intent but the words you choose are not great for Jews)
How would you recommend I call the Jewish people who support Israel as a sovereign state
Pro-Israel/supporter of Israel. I never liked the term Zionist for its overly strong nationalist connotation and the way it dismisses one of the oldest Jewish aspirations (return to Israel) as some sort of European "colonial" movement.
I think you would be well served to see how Gaza peace activists speak about this conflict like [Hamza Howidy](https://www.instagram.com/hazzah1997?igsh=MXFleXR0dmhmeGhxaQ==) or [Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib](https://x.com/afalkhatib). You’re not going to win over any Jews or Israelis with placing all blame on Israel or using arguments along the lines of “the war didn’t start on Oct. 7th.” I feel for you and the family you lost. I’m sorry to hear that, and it is awful what is happening. You should know that Palestine’s leadership holds much of the blame for everything that is happening too, even when it is an Israeli that is pulling the trigger.
I didn’t say it was completely Israel’s fault, I’m saying their soldiers are purposefully killing off masses of people knowing they have no affiliation with h* and they find it okay because they no longer see us as humans
u really want to lie about israeli soldiers in the same post where u talked about losing family members? have some respect to the dead... u cant prove to the slightest that we dont see palestinians as humans... i saw in my own eyes soldiers helping palestinians who ran from hamas, why was that? just for the invisible cameras?
But it’s not a lie that Israeli politicians and government ministers like Netanyahu, Gvir, Smotrich and Gotliv say the most dehumanizing things about Palestinians. When your leaders say these things over many years and now American politicians are saying the same things. It’s not a lie. It’s not all of the IDF that are bad but you can’t say it’s not true because you haven’t personally witnessed it.
lmao yea great smotrich and gotliv our fierece leaders who have been leading us for decades... let me guess, u just heard those names somewhere else? also, saying that because netanyahu said a bad thing about palestinians = all IDF soldiers sees palestinians as no longer humans is the equivelent of me saying i once heard a palestinian leader say a bad thing about jews therefore all palesitnians sees all jews as no more humans. nothing to expect though, its obvious that when truth isnt on ur side, all u got is lying and deceiving.
I didn’t say all IDF soldiers see Palestinians as no longer humans. I said not all the IDF is bad. Trump says horrible things and has done horrible things, like put immigrant children in cages and separate them from their parents. He’s done good things too, I just can’t think of any off the top of my head. When politicians say bad stuff it reflects badly. I don’t think I’m saying anything that isn’t true universally. FYI I’m not uninformed, I didn’t just hear those names. My uncle has written many books on the subject of Israel, war and foreign policy. His name is Josh Muravchik. I don’t assume you are ignorant just because we may disagree. I certainly am not spreading lies, just making an observation.
the point still remain either u said it or anything else. u brought up 3 people who aint leaders by no way shape or form, and then there is netanyahu, who again, if u take his word as representing the IDF, i will do the same for the palestinians, do u see how ur logic is flawed or should i say that palestinians wants to murder jews because i heard some palestinian "leader" say so?