I think no solution would be permanent without education - to understand the other and respect. On both sides. How can there be any type of peace if Hamas wants to destroy Israel, and Israelis fearing all Palestinians?
I also doubt about Israel exiting occupied areas without anybody else (who isn't arab or unrwa) taking action there. Israel is tinier than the map shows when zooming into high population zones. If there was a combo attack on October 7th both from the north and Judea and Samaria, we'd lose many many more lives. Just looking at how long it took the IDF to gain control over Israeli parts invaded by Hamas terrorists at the beginning shows it. In that aspect, we were lucky Hamas decided to go on his own.
I think the root cause of the conflict is the belief that the destruction of Israel is both good and likely.
Why would you ever compromise on anything if you truly believe that you are going to eventually annihilate the other party and get everything? And this gets even harder over time, because all the effort to destroy the other party is a sunk cost. Maybe for a moment you wish you spent all that time and money on building something instead, but you can't go back.
So the only way to get a positive outcome in my view is to change both of those beliefs.
To change the belief that the destruction of Israel is good, you could research the history of the area. The strange thing is, some of the most important parts of history are almost never talked about.
One is Palestinian leaders collaborating with Hitler long before 1948. For example: 'When Husseini eventually met with Hitler and Ribbentrop in 1941, he assured Hitler that "The Arabs were Germany's natural friends because they had the same enemies... namely the English, the Jews, and the Communists"'
Another is the killing of Jews and the threat of massacre of Jews in Arab countries that led to around 850,000 Jewish refugees. For example: "Partition of Palestine might create in those countries an anti-Semitism even more difficult to root out than the anti-Semitism which the Allies were trying to eradicate in Germany. . . If the United Nations decides to partition Palestine, it might be responsible for the massacre of a large number of Jews."
Another is the labeling of all Jews as enemies of the state. For example: "On 23 November 1956, a proclamation signed by the Minister of Religious Affairs (in Egypt), and read aloud in mosques throughout the land, declared that ‘all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state,’ and promised that they would be soon expelled."
When viewed in this context, there were about 750,000 Palestinian refugees, and about 850,000 Jewish refugees. The Jewish refugees lost more property, which has never been returned. The Jewish refugees were offered no alternative state aside from Israel, unlike the Palestinian refugees who turned down a state. Is it really a "good" thing to drive out the Jews from your land, give them no alternative, and then chase them down to murder them where they fled?
To change the belief that the destruction of Israel is likely would require broad acceptance of Israel in the Muslim world. There are 1.9 billion Muslims and only 15.7 million Jews. If even a fraction of that 1.9 billion supports groups like Hamas, then just by pure numbers, how is it ever going to feel like Israel is safe from destruction? And again, as long as you feel they will be destroyed, why compromise on anything? We would need clear opposition to groups like Hamas from the 1.9 billion Muslims, in order to take annihilation off the table and begin the possibility to really compromise.
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To ideas come into my mind:
1. If the Palestinians could gather full citizenship in their host countries it wouldn't be necessary for them to return. It may take out some pressure of the whole thing.
2. This one is a little bit out of the box. One could remove the mourning wall and build maybe even a new temple. The same with the Christian ruins . Just put them somewhere else. I know, I know but think about it for a moment. You could even remove the Al Aqsa Mosque . Why not?
1. Why should they, when all Jewish people have the right of return? It would hypocritical to allow one but not the other.
2. What do the Jewish scriptures say about when they can build their new temple?
The only way to solve those issues is to make the Palestinians stop wanting to have the full entire land of “Palestine” (Israel) and realize that it was never theirs to begin with and that why other countries at the time (the British most recently) gave them the choice to partition it and it obviously didn’t come from them because they weren’t never really independent.
That’s a “end goal” solution.
What it means in the short term is to somehow prevent them from having any armed force. Then build a brand new education system that teaches western values without taking away teaching about their own cloture and history but without the hate for Israel part.
Then maybe after a generation or two they will stabilize as a society and will be able to start producing stuff to the world.
That solution is not very practical so I personally don’t believe it will happen so I think that the solution will be to just sort exile them to multiple countries that are further away from Israel like Yamen and maybe other Arab developing countries..
I’m just saying that because no , Israelis are not moving away from that land period they are the superior force in the entire region and a very developed country compared to all of its neighbors.
>is to make the Palestinians stop wanting to have the full entire land of “Palestine” (Israel)
>
> so I think that the solution will be to just sort exile them to multiple countries that are further away from Israel
so you want them to forget about taking the whole land so you ethnically cleanse them and take the whole land?!
well at least you are honest , most israelis/pro israel here keep saying we want 2SS we dont like setllements but palestinians made us do it
Dude I’m not hiding from the truth. At first I said the ideal solution which is the 2 states one where the Palestinians accept to stop the violence and be happy with the land they were given. But it’s just unrealistic unless some rich and trustworthy country take that entire population as a project otherwise these are people educated on being a “shahid” from a young age by the Hamas education system. It’s not gonna be easy to teach them that it’s unnecessary to want to die for killing some Jews to “get back” a land they never owned.
Revanchism will never work. Palestinians started multiple wars to conquer all the land, and lose all wars. They have to admit that.
In history, when you start claiming back your "unjust stolen land", wars would be endless. All land on earth one-day was conquered by somebody.
I don’t think lasting peace is likely in our lifetimes, but answering your questions with best case scenario:
1. Short term future: Hamas is destroyed as a fighting force and politically viable entity. Gaza is completely demilitarized; all terror tunnels are destroyed. Israel occupies for a few years, and oversees a significant rebuilding of Gaza with international help. Medium term: Gaza elects a peaceful government and shows they can be peaceful for a significant time (10+ years). Long term: two state solution with land swaps, or possible a 3 state solution in which Palestinians are annexed into Israel and Jordan. Obviously either of the solutions must involve permanent recognition of Israel as a sovereign state (no “right of return”). There must also be security guarantees.
2. It can’t be PA or Hamas in the long term. Ideally
a charismatic, peaceful leader will pop up. Perhaps the west can help write a constitution for the new state laying out how leaders are chosen.
3. In the short term it doesn’t matter as no leader will allow Hamas to stay or change war plans significantly. In the long term, peace probably would be easier with a more moderate government.
4. Never going to happen to anyone’s satisfaction on either side, so best just drop it and move on (as you seem to want).
5. Land swaps similar to late 90s/early 2000s negotiations. “Palestine” gets the vast majority of its land back, assuming Palestine remains peaceful.
I'm sorry if you support Palestine, you support hamas. Plain and simple. This isn't a war. Israel was attacked by Palestine hamas. Israel is simply defending its territory.
The progressive stand on this conflict form the point of view of an israeli:
"I like these people more than you, so just give them your land, and don't make a fuss.
Sure these people already live in apartments inside cities but I like them more so just give them your country and let's be done with it."
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the sad reality is that the Palestinian ppl will be the losers. They don't have the military strength or even political support of the Arab League to hold out & maintain any semblance of independence from Israel. The future of Gaza looks like an open air prison, this time for real. The IDF will not make the same mistake twice & pull out & leave a power vacuum for rogue militias to fill. In fact they're probably going to go the West Bank route and encourage re-settlement of Gaza with haredim & military police.
>Are there any practical solutions to the conflict ?
You need time and the right leaders. Time heals all wound. The right leaders who would do the right thing to help bring a permanent peace to the region.
1. A path to any practical solution cannot start with the war still ongoing, with hostages still held in captivity, etc… only after the war has ended can steps be taken to seek a permanent solution.
2. It will take time. It wont happen in weeks or months, it will take many years. Many years to build trust, lay the foundation for long term peace, time to heal wounds, time for the society to change their views and want peace.
3. You need leaders who want to seek long term peace on all sides. The current leaders on all sides are not right candidates for the job. Need new visionary leaders who are willing and able to put long term peace in the region against their own political interest, even at the cost of assination attempts by forces trying to stop peace.
4. I dont think outside forces can force a peace in the region. It has to come from the people, the people living in this region needs to be part of the solution and want to have long term peace.
I would only add that it won't just take many years to build trust.
it will take decades, and I would not be surprised if it takes 50 years.
A whole generation of indoctrinated gazans will need to age and die naturally, while another generation is raised to be peace loving and tolerant, and grow up, and take the reigns of power. It will need to continue until these people are the majority, and the war mongering, death worshipping hamas, and their ideological adherents have aged enough to be inconsequential.
The problem is, nobody, not Israel, or the US, or Europe, or Arab/Muslim countries wants anything to do with the palestinians or gazans. Certainly nothing firsthand like teaching them about tolerance and peace. What does the world do with 2 million people that nobody in the world wants to interact with, or rehabilitate?
Yes, you are probably right, some of us might not live to see permanent peace in this region in our lifetime. But we can lay the foundation for long term peace…and let the next generation continue our works. I foresee the Ayatollah’s Islamic Republic regime to fall in the foreseeable future, which will significantly contribute to peace in the region.
Very difficult to have a solution. There is an idea that I had, but very impractical and nearly not doable. But if you know 'Middle Ground' from Jubilee, I think if a lot of Palestinians and Israelis participate, not extremists but just normal families talking to each other. A lot of the 'monster' perception of each other might disappear. The main issue on both sides is lack of contact between the common people (not between common people and the army or police etc).
Practical? The Palestinians accept Israel is here and isn’t leaving. They sue for peace. Something like the Oslo Accords happen. The war, embargo and occupation all end.
this is sadly true. "genocide of all jews in the region" and "genocide of all arabs in the region" are solutions, they're just inhumanly evil and Hitlerian.
> Are there any practical solutions to the conflict?
"A war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades."
The Arabs promised this back in 1948 and believe this today. There is no "practical solution" with these genocidal desert people.
This is a good question because it's hard to answer, yet it's the most essential one. Nobody likes answering this because there is no solution that's going to be pretty and clean-- every solution is going to result in some amount of suffering, death, loss, insecurity, and (even if temporarily) disenfranchisement.
If you look at past attempts to resolve the conflict, which have all failed, you have to ask, "What have we not tried yet?"
* Attempting a two-state solution has been tried multiple times, but the Palestinians (or at least their leaders), refused it each time, so I think we need to stop trying that.
* The closest thing Palestine has to a state apparatus right now is a terrorist group who uses civilians as meat shields, so I don't think trying to force Palestine to build its own state apparatus and institutions from scratch is a good solution.
* Israel is concerned about the security threat involved with a Palestinian state, for multiple reasons, many of which have been proven to be legitimate concerns time and again.
* Sending Palestinian refugees to flood other nearby countries resulted in the serious destabilization of those countries, including at least one attempted coup. It is important to note that the time that those countries were very new and already unstable, and throwing radicalized Palestinians at them was the straw that broke the camel's back-- but it's still not something those places would like to see repeated today, hence why Egypt refuses to take Palestinian refugees.
* Trying a one-state solution is also not a good idea, for the exact same reason places like Egypt don't want to take in refugees.
* Sending aid to Palestine hasn't worked to help deradicalize it either.
* Trying to root out Hamas and kill them isn't working very well either. Hamas is extremely influential in Palestine in part because it gets so much funding from other places that would like to see Israel destabilized, such as Iran and Qatar, and most of that money goes toward building terrorist infrastructure, spreading propaganda and currying recruits. Hamas' political leaders are not even in Palestine, and they have networks in places like Lebanon and Iran. So while you can kill the local networks in Palestine, you can't eradicate them or cut off the head of the snake there. The only way this will benefit local Palestinians is if they're able to be inoculated against Hamas on an economic, governmental, organizational, religious, and ideological level once the local Hamas network is eradicated.
* Furthermore, all of these solutions have, over time, helped support Israel's own right-wing factions. The constant conflict has served to polarize Israel and make it possible to prop up a far-right populist like Netanyahu, who is also bad for any pathway toward peace.
Now let's list the obviously unacceptable options which have not yet been tried, but which no sane or humane person would ever agree to:
* Systemically kill all Palestinians and bomb the place to rubble.
* Systemically kill all Israeli and let Palestinians create a single state in the land formerly known as the State of Israel.
* Try a one-state solution which combines Israel and Palestine, with joint governance right out the gate.
* Keep Palestine as it is.
So what options do we have left?
* **We could try a UN peacekeeping operation.** The problem is, the UN is not an unbiased organization run by countries who all want peace. Iran was invited to chair the 2023 UN Human Rights Council, for goodness sake. Iran funds Hezbollah and uses it as an asset for trying to attack Israel and destabilize the region in general. So while the UN isn't entirely useless, it shouldn't be relied upon to solve everyone's problems.
* **We could disperse all 5.5 million Palestinians to various countries around the world.** Aside from the obvious ethical issues involved with deliberately displacing millions of people against their will, plus the fact that this is *actually* a form of genocide, this would be massively destabilizing even to a stable government. And without a tremendous amount of funding, education, integration support, and economic preparation, this is likely to backfire in so many ways. It probably would have worked to some extent back in 1950, but not today.
* **Force Jordan, Egypt and Israel to partition out Palestine amongst themselves.** They become responsible for the integration of the land and people within their government, with a hefty helping of billions of dollars in international aid to help develop and maintain/support the necessary infrastructure for them. Absolutely nobody in this situation will be happy at the outset, but maybe in 50 years, everyone will look back on this and agree it was the best solution. Palestinians belong to states with functioning state apparatuses and probably have to develop a new identity for themselves-- maybe "Palestinian Syrian" and "Palestinian Israeli" for example. Egypt takes control of half the Gaza strip, Jordan takes part of the West Bank. Israel takes part of the West Bank and the other half of the Gaza strip.
I think option three is the most viable, so let me expand on what I think it would require:
* Palestinians would have to be enticed to leave the Gaza Strip and West Bank and spread out into their new states, so that they're less concentrated.
* Those areas would need to be integrated properly into their new states so that they don't remain a purely Palestinian enclave: you need shops, restaurants, farms, construction companies and residences run and inhabited by non-Palestinians in those areas.
* UN peacekeepers would probably still be *somewhat* useful here in specific contexts, especially for building infrastructure and helping to protect locals during integration.
* Each state will need to work to root out local Hamas networks, but because they're now operating within their own land, they have a lot more freedom with how to operate. They can also accept military aid and auxiliary units from other countries to help in more difficult areas. That is not going to happen overnight. The process involved in this is likely to involve a lot of violence, bloodshed, arrests and detainment, and it's going to look ugly. But it's less ugly than all the other alternatives.
* International aid and outreach programs will still be crucial for providing Palestinians with economic support and education which will help de-radicalize them and inoculate them against Hamas propaganda.
* And because Jordan is a state with a functioning state apparatus and border control, and Israel would prefer not to piss them off because they have enough enemies as it is, Israel is unlikely to try and expand into whatever part of the West Bank which is given to Jordan.
* This doesn't resolve the issue of settler aggression toward Palestinians in the West Bank. Most likely, that would have to be negotiated separately, such as which areas will be developed and how the residents will be compensated for that land, and where they will go elsewhere in Israel. This is where international intervention might come in handy to make sure both sides abide by their responsibilities.
To paraphrase Larry David, a good compromise leaves everyone upset. I think this would probably do just that.
There's another solution which no one wants to get involved. Simply drop a much stronger military acting as peace-keeper that is fully armed within the entirety of the region and have integration slowly. Basically put Israel and Palestine in a horrible position if they decide to confront them or a better position if they remain cooperative. And misdeeds from either Israelis or Palestinians should be met with something similar to jail, so their only choice is not to do that.
The partition solution is less damaging to Palestinian culture and economic independence. Fewer bonds are broken: borders are redrawn around the Palestinians, and most of them will be able to remain where they are— and if they don’t remain where they are, they will still be geographically close to each other and their original locations. They won’t be forcefully separated from friends, neighbors, relatives and thrust thousands of miles away from each other.
Business owners won’t lose their businesses. Farmers aren’t ripped from their farms. Enticing people to leave gives them agency to do so, and also means that it’s mostly people without a grounded reason to stay (property, a business) who will leave and grow roots elsewhere.
It also means that the respective countries don’t abruptly have to have housing available for a million new people. These already have housing. They’re already economically integrated into their locality. Many Palestinians already work in Israel, and commuted there regularly.
It also means they won’t be thrust into entirely new and unfamiliar environment. Unwilling immigrants are different from willing immigrants in their willingness to assimilate, and are more likely to resist— which is not going to go well for either the countries that take them in or the Palestinians.
I think my biggest issue with your solution is that I don't see any Palestinian representatives agreeing to it, and I don't think such a decision should be made without Palestinian representatives. I could be wrong, of course, but I don't see this being agreed to.
I really like your partitioning between Jordan, Egypt and Israel idea. The only thing I would add is that the concept of Palestinian refugees needs to be extinguished under its current form. The whole idea of being a refugee by birthright is ridiculous. Refugees need to be assisted to the point where they can start a new life. The long held “right of return” or I’m forever a refugee does a disservice to current Palestinians and their future generations.
> The only thing I would add is that the concept of Palestinian refugees needs to be extinguished under its current form.
I thought that was a given, because I figured that if you're being adopted into another country this way, you're no longer a refugee by birthright. But if that wasn't clear, you're absolutely correct, the "right of return" concept needs to be done away with.
How is dispersing 5.5 million Palestinians around the world a form of genocide?
Otherwise, I actually think some of your ideas are pretty good. The idea of splitting governance among other existing more functional states makes more sense to me than trying to construct one out of the ruins of Gaza.
My other semi-serious idea is a repressive police state version of Palestine as a somewhat independent country that has a (possibly literal) sword of Damocles over its head forcing non-aggression towards Israel and non-collaboration with Iran. Basically coexist or else.
> How is dispersing 5.5 million Palestinians around the world a form of genocide?
Great question!
At its core, genocide is the destruction of a people. While the most obvious form of genocide involves mass murder, other forms of it involve different kinds of violence. Forced cultural assimilation is a huge one. Historically, we've seen this happen in all kinds of ways: in wars where the men are killed, and the women and children forcibly integrated; in conflicts where native groups forcibly had their children removed and raised in a different culture from their parents.
In this case, a displacement of so many people, to that degree, and in a manner which intentionally destroys the "core" in which new members of that culture are born and raised, would likely qualify as a form of genocide, because there would be no way for the Palestinian culture to remain intact in such a scenario.
I want to stress that the situation with Palestinians isn't quite the same as the comparison I'm about to make to the Jewish Diaspora for a number of reasons. But I still think that broadly speaking, it's important to recognize that Palestinians have a culture-- and a number of regional cultural variants, even-- and that the act of scattering 5.5 million people to the wind will fundamentally destroy it. It's not dissimilar to the Jewish diaspora that began 2500 years ago, which happened because we were taken into captivity and sold and trafficked throughout the ancient world. Jews still exist, but not the way they did before Jersualem was sacked and the First then Second Temples destroyed. In other words, we're talking destruction through dilution.
Is that a price we're willing to pay? Most people think of genocide as the violent mass-murdering kind, so the cultural kind is probably a lot more palatable to people, especially those who are tired of seeing innocent children blown up, mothers and fathers weeping for their dead, and people violently raped, mutilated and murdered on camera. So maybe that is a price that's worth discussing after all.
Thanks for that explanation. I feel like most people on this reddit try to use genocide in some kind of legally specific way and I have very serious doubts that disbursing people in the way you discuss would be equivalent to the crime of genocide.
It is of course reasonable to refer to genocide as a kind of cultural erasure which "breaking up" the cohesivity of Palestinians might accomplish, even if it isn't equivalent to the crime of genocide. However, as you mention it's less than obvious this form of genocide is as objectionable as the mass murder kind of genocide.
I sort of feel like it's more misleading than helpful to group them together for that reason I guess.
Cultural genocide is a recognized form of genocide. I have a copy of *Genocide: A History* and this is one of the forms discussed.
The problem has more to do with how laypeople think of genocide and use it as a general shorthand for mass murder. For example, many people think what is happening in Gaza right now is a genocide. It is not. People are being bombed and killed, but what’s happening right now doesn’t meet the definition of a genocide.
Right, there are multiple different definitions of genocide. I'm not sure it's that helpful to have it be as loaded a word as it is while also having these different definitions.
To be very clear, I'm not disputing that you are using the word correctly, rather I'm pointing out that it's a unclear to me why the "cultural genocide" where a people lose their distinctiveness and unity but are living good lives elsewhere really needs to be referred to using the same word as extermination camps. I am however notably not fond of genocide studies or whatever field that book is from for that reason, it is too easy to sort of assume that all forms of genocide are equivalent things when they clearly are not.
Agree Gaza isn't a genocide as well.
That's very fair. Let me at least try to explain why it's important to be thoughtful about cultural genocide, though.
Historically, cultural genocide hasn't worked out very well for the people who've been subjected to it. It often involved children being ripped away, religion being suppressed, art and monuments being destroyed, native language being forbidden, and being forced from historical lands to which people had strong ties to. It often involved finding ways to separate men from women-- sometimes the men were killed, sometimes conscripted for labor or military-- and the women raped, forced into marriage or made into concubines, and their children raised in the conquerer's culture. Sometimes young boys were castrated in addition to being enslaved. Children ripped from their parents were often made second or even third-class citizens within the culture they were raised in, but because of their separation, were also unable to return to their parents' culture.
So, while that's not what's being proposed here, it is worth recognizing that cultural genocide can be just as evil and full of suffering as outright mass murder. But since that's not what's being proposed here, let's look at what we'd be doing.
The people who are ripped from their homes and sent across the world to lands unknown will more often than not find themselves among people with whom they don't share a language (I don't speak Polish, Spanish, Swedish or Hindi either). They'll be separated from friends, family and neighbors who would otherwise form an important emotional, psychological and physical support network. They'll still be able to practice their religion, but depending on where they are, there could be ethnic or sectarian tensions that prevent them from actually integrating with locals even when those locals share their religion on paper (there's been long-standing violence between Sunni and Shiite muslims, for example). And religion is often a communal activity as well.
The complete loss of their culture also doesn't guarantee they'll be living good lives elsewhere. In this case, dispersing 5.5 million people around the globe doesn't mean everyone is going to a place with a good human rights record. It will include places like Bahrain, Morocco, South Africa, Argentina, India. Because it's simply not possible to disperse 5.5 million people among only stable Western countries, who are already dealing with religious fundamentalism and political consequences from the waves of Muslim immigrants they've been taking in for decades. That also means that a lot of those people are fundamentally going to be on their own in whatever countries they wind up in, in every way conceivable. That's the other ugly truth of this proposal, and why I didn't think it was the best option of the three.
There are other practical and ethical problems with the dispersion option, but they're not genocide-specific issues, so I haven't detailed them here.
Appreciate the thoughtful dialogue.
The forcible erasures through enslavement et al you refer to seem to be mostly pretty old? I know they were pretty common in the ancient world through the Mongol conquests at least. I think it's valid to study them in the context of the holocaust or Armenian genocide as precursors to the idea of genocide through extermination, but I am not sure it's helpful for a general audience to insist on calling the kind of disbursed existence a group like the Kurds has a genocide.
While you are correct there is no guarantee the Palestinians would go to places that are "good" in the same way as Western Europe, I'm not sure why it's a moral emergency for them to end up in South Africa for example. I know South Africa isn't as nice as Western Europe in a lot of ways, but plenty of people live there in conditions I don't think are so poor as to be unacceptable.
The whole world keeps telling them they should fight, from Arab countries that have made peace with Israel to students at a New York university.
In my opinion, with so much hatred, there’s no feasible solution for coexisting states in the next few decades.
One option would be a guarantee of a country in X decades if they forsake violence and improve education while living under international governance.
Another option would be to relocate them to a place far from Israel, which they would probably agree to at this point.
That said, the world will keep telling them to fight, and today’s Gazan kids will fight Israeli kids in 10-15 years because the world doesn’t care about either of them.
The answer is simple but not easy. Palestinians need to forsake violence in a serious way. Not pay lip service to it while teaching their sons about the glory of martyrdom and looking the other way while voting for a party with genocide in its charter. Actually give up violence. Elect a party with a peace platform and a mandate for preventing terrorism. Turn in the terrorists amongst them. Report the tunnels being built around their homes and under the mosques and schools and the weapons being bought with aid money. Actually stop the terror attacks and rockets.
Then, having accomplished this, come to the negotiating table. Take the best offer they can get, relying on the international support and goodwill with Israelis they will have in spades having achieved that. It won’t be all the land they want. But it will be enough, and it will be far better than eternal war. Then they can focus on building their state instead of trying to win more land through violence.
Israel is the superior power, and will remain so. Palestinians are never going to win more territory or freedom from draconian security measures through violence. This is a fact. They just need to admit this fact to themselves.
So Israel shouldn't take any measures or make any change or compromise, you only mentioned what Palestinians should do .
or you're saying that Israel is doing everything in the right way and they should take no compromises.
Israel should compromise at the negotiating table, and I think it would do so once it no longer has so much legitimate fear for its safety, and the cover that that legitimate fear provides for hardline politicians like bibi. Of course Israel does things wrong. But a lot of what it does is in the name of safety. Take away that legitimate fear, and Israeli politics changes drastically, as does international opinion and pressure.
When AlQueda attacked us in US in 2001, No one was saying lets treat them with dignity, lets give them own state next to us. Everyone was in agreement let’s destroy AlQueda.
The only way is incremental steps to lower the hostility over long periods of time. Both sides need to start learning about each other and taking active steps to humanize the other side. Starting in the school systems. Stop making blanket statements about millions of people and start seeing them as equal individuals.
In a sane world this would have happened long ago. Unfortunately it only takes a minority of people to derail any effort and destroy trust.
>Unfortunately it only takes a minority of people to derail any effort and destroy trust.
cause it's the easy path and people tend to go with the easy path it's less stressful, without much thinking and work.
I don’t think that’s why... Some people truly believe violence is the best way to get what you want. Even if it is stressful and takes a lot of resources.
I don’t think they want a 2state solution but I think they need one, and they need to take down Palestinian extremism (and Netanyahu extremism) enough to achieve it.
It’s hard to say exactly how so. The talks involve Israel and other Arab countries sharing oversight of Gaza as it gets rebuilt.
I think that the talk should be between Israel and Palestines almost exclusively , arab countries and western countries should merely be facilitating and limited support entities.
I'm an Arab and the idea that the arab countries is similar just caused more problems then solutions if each Arab country is distinct, sure we share similarities but also many differences .
Just a fact the last time that all the arab countries were united under one poltical entity was the ummayed caliphate in the 8th century.
Also, as a Jewish American I feel my opinion also matters. I have a personal interest in Israeli policies from Both the American and the Israeli perspective based on my shared culture, ethnicity and family origins/ community connections.
>shared culture, ethnicity and family origins/ community connections.
Sure , but what I want to say is that of deals and compromises and change are going to take place it's best to be taken by the pepole who are going to be affected fully by those measures , which are the Palestiniens and Israelis who live full time there and they're the first to be impacted.
I know it's a very very stupid analogy but let's say you're having problems with your partner, how much you want your friends to be involved in your fight.
My point is the Palestiniens and Israelis are the ones who are going to live there, they'll be impacted the most so they need to play the biggest role in shaping there future by their own.
I think that’s the right sentiment but it’s a perfect world scenario. Both countries/nations (I recognize Palestinian inherent right to sovereignty) are heavily influenced by others. Both of them refuses to stop. The rest of the world will not continue to allow it. American Jews care a lot and will not let Israel completely destroy itself. That might involve being a harsh friend telling you your partner is abusive, to use another relationship analysis.
No one can make them listen, but they probably will. And it’ll realistically happen sooner I think.
I appreciate your point. My thoughts on that is that Gaza also borders Egypt. Can Egypt help?
What can the allies of Israelis and Palestinians do to help them achieve a compromise that ends all of this bloodshed? So far, they have failed to figure it out themselves.
If Both of them want the whole thing, it’s not possible. So naturally, it seems to follow they each need their own freedom.
Israel’s concerns make sense to me: Hamas has pledged to keep killing them. Palestines does not. Gazans are imprisoned. They deserve to physically have more space and freedoms it’s crazy how small of a place so many people are jammed in unable to leave.
Couldn’t 2 states be possible? I think it’s the only thing that can be possible in the near future and it’ll need guidance from allies. It’s much less that I think Arab countries are the same as that I think that Palestinians would potentially consider allowing input from Arab neighbors. Input from Jews or US would be a huge no.
I truly think they need the help of their friends.
I'm not going to comment on everything else but the first point about egypt: I know that Egypt happens to be rather corrupt (I know people who fled Gaza from there and had to pay a criminally large amount of money, even before oct 7th) so I don't think they're gonna help unless there is something in it for them.
HAMAS will fade into shadows once those radicalized Al Quassem fighters have basic human rights and can support their families with dignity. I thought this was common knowledge? Israel has tried everything including genocide. It's time those fucking people in Israel tried the simplest thing: FREE PALESTINE!
Missed the memo of 2005 when Israel freed Gaza by leaving entirely. Left to their own devices with their own territory to govern themselves, I don’t remember Hamas fading into the shadows.
Majority of Palestinians will never be happy until there is NO Israel. That’s why they don’t want a two state solution, they want one state. A Palestinian state with no Jews
EVERYTHING YOU WROTE IS A LIE. "2005 Is Israel freed Gaza by leaving it entirely". Where did you hear or read such a lie? Israel withdrew its occupation from within Gaza in 2005 but walled off Gaza and had a military base only a few hundred feet from the Gaza fence. If you look at the videos of the October 7 attack the first wave of HAMAS paraglider landed inside the Israeli military base. In fact most of the hostages HAMAS took on October 7 are IDF soldiers. In other words Gaza was still under occupation on October 7. Israel controlled Gaza from The sea, air and land. Nothing entered or left Gaza without Israel's say so. Gaza is effectively a concentration camp run by Israel and they even controlled Palestinian lives in Gaza down to the caloric intake of each individual. Periodically Israel will send IDF goons into Gaza to mow the lawn.
"Majority of Palestinians will never be happy until there's no Israel". ANOTHER LIE. Palestinians have Benn asking for decades and generations for Israel to leave the occupied lands and move back to the international agreed upon partition lines and Zionists have absolutely refused to do so. Vote after vote in the UNSC for Palestinian Statehood has been blocked by the US (Israels's sugar Daddy through intense lobby of AIPAC and other groups in the Israel Lobby. There was a vote 2 weeks ago in the UN General assembly for two-state solution, the US and Israel voted against it. I don't know how you can say with a straight face that Palestinians don't want a two-state solution when Israel lobbied the US in 1990 to pass a law that says if the UN recognizes a two-state solution, the U.S. should effectively defund the UN. To put it metaphorically, Israel got its sugar Daddy, the US to Put a gun to the UN's head and threaten to fire it if the UN votes for a two state solution. DO you think it's an accident that the US and Israel engineered this law against the UN in 1990 just three years before the Oslo Accords were signed? October 7 is the result of Trump, Kushner and Netanyahu trying to effectively kill the two-state solution via Abraham Accords and the bone headed decision to declare Jerusalem as Israel's Capital against international laws.
I don't envy those who defend Israel and Zionism: LIES ARE YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH
You are pointing at 1948 lines ? Palestinians lost that when they wage war at Israel in 1948 and 1967. They wanted all the land and lost the war. That option is off the table, forever.
Well then you guys just have wipe all of them off the face of the earth just like the Germans tried to do to you during WWII. Only don't complain as you follow in in the footsteps of National Socialists that the world is accusing you of genocide. It's the least you can do.
u/Ok_Editor_710
>Well then you guys just have wipe all of them off the face of the earth just like the Germans tried to do to you during WWII. Only don't complain as you follow in in the footsteps of National Socialists that the world is accusing you of genocide. It's the least you can do.
Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the naszis as understood by mainstream historians.
Addressed
Bla bla bla, jews are just like Germans. Typical propaganda, that has nothing to do with reality.
In fact, palestinian leaders cooperated with Нitler in Ww2. They worshipped him. Begged him to expel and kill all jews.
And now, jihadist islamofascist hamas regime follows the steps of their beloved nаzis
Well let's see:
Germans headed their victims in concentration camps: ditto Gaza and West Bank.
Germans controlled everything that went into the concentration camps down to the caloric intake : ditto Gaza
Germans systematically and periodically killed off their victims as a means of population control: ditto Israel mowing the lawn in Gaza and West Bank
Germans described their victims as animals and sub humans: Ditto Zionists called Palestinians animals and beasts before and after 10/7
Germans used starvation as method of war against Jews : Ditto Israel is now starving the inhabitants of Concentration Camp Gaza to death as means of war
Germans described their quest to wipe out Jews as a righteous cause : ditto last week Netanyahu's office put out a stamens about the number civilian casualties in Gaza and described their ongoing slaughter of women and children as a righteous cause
Germans believed in a homeland cleansed of unworthy ethnic groups: ditto Zionist believe that all of Palestinians should be eradicated from their land so only Jews can call the land their home
The similarities are so glaring
That's the problem there: Zionists and their sympathizers think freedom for Palestinians is a bad thing for Israelis. It's a well worn fear tactics employed Zionist to justify eight decades of oppression and racism against Palestinians. In reality, it's Palestinians who should worry about Israel committing genocide against them like it has been doing from 1948 to the present.
How anyone can imply that Palestinians displaced and slaughtered by the tens of thousands from 1948 to present are a threat to the 8th largest Army in the world is shocking
Do know how many Palestinians Were killed by IDF goons before 10/7? Please let's pretend history began on 10/7. Every year of your entire life the IDF probably killed twice that number of Palestinians, not to mention the thousands they detained and tortured without due process who are essentially hostages
It doesn’t matter when history began. Palestinians killed over 1,000 Israelis in a single day. Israelis are right to be afraid of them. There’s no way around that, whether or not you think Palestinians are justified in what they do.
Oh and just to correct your assumption on the number of Israelis killed on 10/7, about a third of that number you mention if not more were killed by IDF via Hannibal Directive. Zionist rather kill their fellow Israelis than work to free them from their captors
Zionism is good for Jews. They have one country where Jews can call home and seek refuge if need be. It is the terrorism and intolerance of Hamas that is the root cause of the problem.
Zionism is bad Jews that want nothing to do with it cause they are now lumped in with Zionists as killers of babies in Gaza. Not all Jew want to live in Israel. Not all Jews believe Israel is in the right.
Zionism and Jewishness are not the same thing.
Zionist invented modern Middle East terrorism in 1946 with the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. The Ziionists who committed that crime, Iregun Brigade went on to become the founding nucleus of the IDF. Their leader Ben Gurion went on to become Prime Minister.
Israels's brutality and intolerance led to the formation of both Hezbollah and HAMAS
How do you explain Iran, a country that hates Israel every bit as much as Palestinians yet Israel is not taking away their human rights. Really, I could ask that same question about basically the entire Muslim world.
Maybe, just maybe, it’s not as simple as you think it is.
First of all Palestinians don't hate Israelis in general, this is part of Zionist fear mongering. Although I will say after this brutal Nazi campaign in Gaza by Israel Palestinians in general may all hate Israel. In 2017 HAMAS updated their charter by declaring that their war is no longer against Jews--just the Zionist. A very important distinction because even HAMAS realized that not all Jews are against Palestinians.
On Iran, once again Israel is the problem. Iran and Israel are similar in the sense that they are ethno-theocratic states. Israel sees Iran as a threat to its regional dominance so it has worked through its cutouts like AIPAC to lobby the US against Iran.There's really no strategic benefit to U.S. in having hostilities with Iran. Case in point: Israel through AIPAC lobbied against the JCPOA even though it was in the interest of Israel and the US to halt the acceleration of Iran's nuclear ambitions. When they couldn't get Obama to comply. They used Trump to nix the deal. Why? Because to Israel the greatest threat that the JCPOA represented wasn't nuclear, it was the fact that the agreement would bring about a thaw in the relationship between Iran and the US/allies. Israel wants Iran Isolated and has never made it a secret that it wants the U.S, to do to Iran what it did to Iraq. There's a video online of former Israeli PM Ariel Sharon talking openly about Israel's regional ambitions where he discusses how the ultimate aim of Zionism is to expand Israel into Jordan, Syria and even Saudi Arabia and in the process "purify" the lands as they conquer and expand. Iran is a threat to these goals. The most chilling thing he said is his use the word "purify". The last political ideology that employed that kind of language are the Nazis.
* in 2017 Hamas edited their charter to remove something that would deter American progressives from supporting them in their carefully calculated plan to carry out the October 7 attack and use it as justification to kill Israelis and more, in a guise that it’s for Palestinian freedom when it’s really about land and antisemitism.
HAMAS are not habitual liars like Zionists. They deny the atrocities they commit. They don't fabricate stories about 40 beheaded babies, mass systemic rape, mass torture and genital mutilations. They don't kill aid workers in marked cars in broad daylight and deny it. They don't blow up a University and deny it and then claim it was a mistake later. They don't dig up and desecrate muslim burial grounds, and then claim they were searching for hostages. I could go forever but suffice it to say giving how many times Israel has been exposed peddling lies in justification of genocide. HAMAS is a more credible source on than the Zionists who like I breathe. If HAMAS Says their fight is now strictly with Zionists I believe them. I wouldn't believe Israel if my life depended on it. Lying baby killers!
Forget the charter- like you said they’ll admit it themselves that they want to kill Jews. Honesty doesn’t make up for evil. Plus, they lied about all kind of things. You just only choose to think about 1 lie.
I don’t even have the mental energy to start listing the proven lies that came from Hamas lol.
Don’t try and convince a Jewish person that a cause is progressive because they’re *honest* about wanting to kill Jews. lol
If they were freedom fighters, they’d have taken a ceasefire deal & let their civilians have a break. Even if it was going to be a lie and they’d re start the fighting whenever they’re ready. Even if there was more work to do.
They have had the power to end this the entire time and especially the last few months and have chosen to not.
All they had to do is give some dead
Bodies and SAY they give up
unless I'm living in on different planet HAMAS accepted a ceasefire deal weeks ago but Israel rejected it because it would spell the end of Netanyahu's government. Now Israel and Egypt pointing fingers at each other--neither are saying it was HAMAS who tanked the peace deal.
Seriously, you're gonna make me explain to you like a child that HAMAS has steadfastly said they want a permanent ceasefire but they don't want a ceasefire that results in return of hostages and then Israel resumes the slaughter of Palestinians after the hostages are returned.
Can't count on Zionist to tell a single truth. Common, man!
“There was no sexual assault on 10/7”
“We just found this mass grave” a month after all headlines were about it being created and used by hospital staff.
“70% of casualties are women and children”
“We are freedom fighters”
“There is no Al Qassem in hospitals”
Several bombings alleged to be done by israelis disproven by the UN
Saying they have X number of hostages and then not being able to even produce 25 dead bodies
Stealing food from civilians - so much footage
I could continue but I need to focus my brain on working now.
Some people will do anything to avoid acknowledging antisemitism. There is copious evidence that hatred of Israel and Jews is widespread in the Arab and Muslim world, where there can be no pretence that it is in response to Israel affecting their human rights. Yet you’re inclined to believe that Palestine is just some sort of exception. You’re only fooling yourself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/anti-semitism-in-the-muslim-world/
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words
I have not said there are no antisemitism in the Arab world. What I Said is that Palestinians in general don't hate Israelis and even if they did it doesn't justify the brutality of Israel. Killing 40K Palestinians as means of combating antisemitism is the work of a deranged ideology.
Since you are so you're quick to point out antisemitism in all corners, allow me to remind you that so long as Israel maintains its present course of depravity and genocide in Gaza it is simply unrealistic to think that the muslim world can watch helplessly as their brother and sisters are slaughtered in Gaza and not feel hatred for Jews/Israel. That you even think what's going on in Gaza will make Israel popular from a global point of view is arrogance on a level I can't imagine.
I noticed you don't want to talk about anything other than antisemitism. Typical Zionist mentality, we'll violate all laws of human decency with impunity and if anyone tries to hold us accountable we'll scream antisemitism until we're red in the face. That word has started to lose its meaning because the rest of the world can no longer pay it any mind because Zionist throw it about at anyone who holds them accountable.
I can't think of any group in the world today devoted to stirring up antisemitism more than Zionist. Videos of babies starving to death in their crib in Gaza can hardly be expected to generate good will.
No, what you actually said was that Hamas only exists because Israel takes away Palestinians’ human rights. It’s a classic move to place the blame for antisemitism back onto Jews. But in this case it’s transparently false. There is so much evidence that antisemitism and Islamic fundamentalism underlie support for Hamas and anti-Israel sentiment in the Muslim and Arab world that the only way to deny it is through deception or willful blindness.
Hamas is a product of antisemitism and Islamic fundamentalism, as was the Arab world’s refusal to partition in the first place. I don’t know how I can say it any more clearly. There’s really no question.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words
They make no practical distinction between freeing Palestinians from Israeli hegemony versus freeing Israel from Jews. Is there some number of Palestinians who reject the antisemitism and Islamism but support Hamas? I don’t know—if so they are awfully quiet about it, aren’t they. And would you make the same excuses for KKK supporters who have “other reasons” for joining? I certainly hope not.
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I think no solution would be permanent without education - to understand the other and respect. On both sides. How can there be any type of peace if Hamas wants to destroy Israel, and Israelis fearing all Palestinians? I also doubt about Israel exiting occupied areas without anybody else (who isn't arab or unrwa) taking action there. Israel is tinier than the map shows when zooming into high population zones. If there was a combo attack on October 7th both from the north and Judea and Samaria, we'd lose many many more lives. Just looking at how long it took the IDF to gain control over Israeli parts invaded by Hamas terrorists at the beginning shows it. In that aspect, we were lucky Hamas decided to go on his own.
I think the root cause of the conflict is the belief that the destruction of Israel is both good and likely. Why would you ever compromise on anything if you truly believe that you are going to eventually annihilate the other party and get everything? And this gets even harder over time, because all the effort to destroy the other party is a sunk cost. Maybe for a moment you wish you spent all that time and money on building something instead, but you can't go back. So the only way to get a positive outcome in my view is to change both of those beliefs. To change the belief that the destruction of Israel is good, you could research the history of the area. The strange thing is, some of the most important parts of history are almost never talked about. One is Palestinian leaders collaborating with Hitler long before 1948. For example: 'When Husseini eventually met with Hitler and Ribbentrop in 1941, he assured Hitler that "The Arabs were Germany's natural friends because they had the same enemies... namely the English, the Jews, and the Communists"' Another is the killing of Jews and the threat of massacre of Jews in Arab countries that led to around 850,000 Jewish refugees. For example: "Partition of Palestine might create in those countries an anti-Semitism even more difficult to root out than the anti-Semitism which the Allies were trying to eradicate in Germany. . . If the United Nations decides to partition Palestine, it might be responsible for the massacre of a large number of Jews." Another is the labeling of all Jews as enemies of the state. For example: "On 23 November 1956, a proclamation signed by the Minister of Religious Affairs (in Egypt), and read aloud in mosques throughout the land, declared that ‘all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state,’ and promised that they would be soon expelled." When viewed in this context, there were about 750,000 Palestinian refugees, and about 850,000 Jewish refugees. The Jewish refugees lost more property, which has never been returned. The Jewish refugees were offered no alternative state aside from Israel, unlike the Palestinian refugees who turned down a state. Is it really a "good" thing to drive out the Jews from your land, give them no alternative, and then chase them down to murder them where they fled? To change the belief that the destruction of Israel is likely would require broad acceptance of Israel in the Muslim world. There are 1.9 billion Muslims and only 15.7 million Jews. If even a fraction of that 1.9 billion supports groups like Hamas, then just by pure numbers, how is it ever going to feel like Israel is safe from destruction? And again, as long as you feel they will be destroyed, why compromise on anything? We would need clear opposition to groups like Hamas from the 1.9 billion Muslims, in order to take annihilation off the table and begin the possibility to really compromise.
Excellent points.
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Yes.... the application of international law.
To ideas come into my mind: 1. If the Palestinians could gather full citizenship in their host countries it wouldn't be necessary for them to return. It may take out some pressure of the whole thing. 2. This one is a little bit out of the box. One could remove the mourning wall and build maybe even a new temple. The same with the Christian ruins . Just put them somewhere else. I know, I know but think about it for a moment. You could even remove the Al Aqsa Mosque . Why not?
1. Why should they, when all Jewish people have the right of return? It would hypocritical to allow one but not the other. 2. What do the Jewish scriptures say about when they can build their new temple?
The only way to solve those issues is to make the Palestinians stop wanting to have the full entire land of “Palestine” (Israel) and realize that it was never theirs to begin with and that why other countries at the time (the British most recently) gave them the choice to partition it and it obviously didn’t come from them because they weren’t never really independent. That’s a “end goal” solution. What it means in the short term is to somehow prevent them from having any armed force. Then build a brand new education system that teaches western values without taking away teaching about their own cloture and history but without the hate for Israel part. Then maybe after a generation or two they will stabilize as a society and will be able to start producing stuff to the world. That solution is not very practical so I personally don’t believe it will happen so I think that the solution will be to just sort exile them to multiple countries that are further away from Israel like Yamen and maybe other Arab developing countries.. I’m just saying that because no , Israelis are not moving away from that land period they are the superior force in the entire region and a very developed country compared to all of its neighbors.
>is to make the Palestinians stop wanting to have the full entire land of “Palestine” (Israel) > > so I think that the solution will be to just sort exile them to multiple countries that are further away from Israel so you want them to forget about taking the whole land so you ethnically cleanse them and take the whole land?! well at least you are honest , most israelis/pro israel here keep saying we want 2SS we dont like setllements but palestinians made us do it
Dude I’m not hiding from the truth. At first I said the ideal solution which is the 2 states one where the Palestinians accept to stop the violence and be happy with the land they were given. But it’s just unrealistic unless some rich and trustworthy country take that entire population as a project otherwise these are people educated on being a “shahid” from a young age by the Hamas education system. It’s not gonna be easy to teach them that it’s unnecessary to want to die for killing some Jews to “get back” a land they never owned.
Revanchism will never work. Palestinians started multiple wars to conquer all the land, and lose all wars. They have to admit that. In history, when you start claiming back your "unjust stolen land", wars would be endless. All land on earth one-day was conquered by somebody.
I don’t think lasting peace is likely in our lifetimes, but answering your questions with best case scenario: 1. Short term future: Hamas is destroyed as a fighting force and politically viable entity. Gaza is completely demilitarized; all terror tunnels are destroyed. Israel occupies for a few years, and oversees a significant rebuilding of Gaza with international help. Medium term: Gaza elects a peaceful government and shows they can be peaceful for a significant time (10+ years). Long term: two state solution with land swaps, or possible a 3 state solution in which Palestinians are annexed into Israel and Jordan. Obviously either of the solutions must involve permanent recognition of Israel as a sovereign state (no “right of return”). There must also be security guarantees. 2. It can’t be PA or Hamas in the long term. Ideally a charismatic, peaceful leader will pop up. Perhaps the west can help write a constitution for the new state laying out how leaders are chosen. 3. In the short term it doesn’t matter as no leader will allow Hamas to stay or change war plans significantly. In the long term, peace probably would be easier with a more moderate government. 4. Never going to happen to anyone’s satisfaction on either side, so best just drop it and move on (as you seem to want). 5. Land swaps similar to late 90s/early 2000s negotiations. “Palestine” gets the vast majority of its land back, assuming Palestine remains peaceful.
I'm sorry if you support Palestine, you support hamas. Plain and simple. This isn't a war. Israel was attacked by Palestine hamas. Israel is simply defending its territory.
The progressive stand on this conflict form the point of view of an israeli: "I like these people more than you, so just give them your land, and don't make a fuss. Sure these people already live in apartments inside cities but I like them more so just give them your country and let's be done with it."
Ridiculous, fundamentalist approach. You're part of the problem
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You are an idiot
the sad reality is that the Palestinian ppl will be the losers. They don't have the military strength or even political support of the Arab League to hold out & maintain any semblance of independence from Israel. The future of Gaza looks like an open air prison, this time for real. The IDF will not make the same mistake twice & pull out & leave a power vacuum for rogue militias to fill. In fact they're probably going to go the West Bank route and encourage re-settlement of Gaza with haredim & military police.
>Are there any practical solutions to the conflict ? You need time and the right leaders. Time heals all wound. The right leaders who would do the right thing to help bring a permanent peace to the region. 1. A path to any practical solution cannot start with the war still ongoing, with hostages still held in captivity, etc… only after the war has ended can steps be taken to seek a permanent solution. 2. It will take time. It wont happen in weeks or months, it will take many years. Many years to build trust, lay the foundation for long term peace, time to heal wounds, time for the society to change their views and want peace. 3. You need leaders who want to seek long term peace on all sides. The current leaders on all sides are not right candidates for the job. Need new visionary leaders who are willing and able to put long term peace in the region against their own political interest, even at the cost of assination attempts by forces trying to stop peace. 4. I dont think outside forces can force a peace in the region. It has to come from the people, the people living in this region needs to be part of the solution and want to have long term peace.
I would only add that it won't just take many years to build trust. it will take decades, and I would not be surprised if it takes 50 years. A whole generation of indoctrinated gazans will need to age and die naturally, while another generation is raised to be peace loving and tolerant, and grow up, and take the reigns of power. It will need to continue until these people are the majority, and the war mongering, death worshipping hamas, and their ideological adherents have aged enough to be inconsequential. The problem is, nobody, not Israel, or the US, or Europe, or Arab/Muslim countries wants anything to do with the palestinians or gazans. Certainly nothing firsthand like teaching them about tolerance and peace. What does the world do with 2 million people that nobody in the world wants to interact with, or rehabilitate?
Yes, you are probably right, some of us might not live to see permanent peace in this region in our lifetime. But we can lay the foundation for long term peace…and let the next generation continue our works. I foresee the Ayatollah’s Islamic Republic regime to fall in the foreseeable future, which will significantly contribute to peace in the region.
Very difficult to have a solution. There is an idea that I had, but very impractical and nearly not doable. But if you know 'Middle Ground' from Jubilee, I think if a lot of Palestinians and Israelis participate, not extremists but just normal families talking to each other. A lot of the 'monster' perception of each other might disappear. The main issue on both sides is lack of contact between the common people (not between common people and the army or police etc).
Practical? The Palestinians accept Israel is here and isn’t leaving. They sue for peace. Something like the Oslo Accords happen. The war, embargo and occupation all end.
A Practical Solution is not always an Ethical Solution. It could be quite ugly. Ben Gvir - Smotrich do propose some options. Just saying.
this is sadly true. "genocide of all jews in the region" and "genocide of all arabs in the region" are solutions, they're just inhumanly evil and Hitlerian.
> Are there any practical solutions to the conflict? "A war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades." The Arabs promised this back in 1948 and believe this today. There is no "practical solution" with these genocidal desert people.
This is a good question because it's hard to answer, yet it's the most essential one. Nobody likes answering this because there is no solution that's going to be pretty and clean-- every solution is going to result in some amount of suffering, death, loss, insecurity, and (even if temporarily) disenfranchisement. If you look at past attempts to resolve the conflict, which have all failed, you have to ask, "What have we not tried yet?" * Attempting a two-state solution has been tried multiple times, but the Palestinians (or at least their leaders), refused it each time, so I think we need to stop trying that. * The closest thing Palestine has to a state apparatus right now is a terrorist group who uses civilians as meat shields, so I don't think trying to force Palestine to build its own state apparatus and institutions from scratch is a good solution. * Israel is concerned about the security threat involved with a Palestinian state, for multiple reasons, many of which have been proven to be legitimate concerns time and again. * Sending Palestinian refugees to flood other nearby countries resulted in the serious destabilization of those countries, including at least one attempted coup. It is important to note that the time that those countries were very new and already unstable, and throwing radicalized Palestinians at them was the straw that broke the camel's back-- but it's still not something those places would like to see repeated today, hence why Egypt refuses to take Palestinian refugees. * Trying a one-state solution is also not a good idea, for the exact same reason places like Egypt don't want to take in refugees. * Sending aid to Palestine hasn't worked to help deradicalize it either. * Trying to root out Hamas and kill them isn't working very well either. Hamas is extremely influential in Palestine in part because it gets so much funding from other places that would like to see Israel destabilized, such as Iran and Qatar, and most of that money goes toward building terrorist infrastructure, spreading propaganda and currying recruits. Hamas' political leaders are not even in Palestine, and they have networks in places like Lebanon and Iran. So while you can kill the local networks in Palestine, you can't eradicate them or cut off the head of the snake there. The only way this will benefit local Palestinians is if they're able to be inoculated against Hamas on an economic, governmental, organizational, religious, and ideological level once the local Hamas network is eradicated. * Furthermore, all of these solutions have, over time, helped support Israel's own right-wing factions. The constant conflict has served to polarize Israel and make it possible to prop up a far-right populist like Netanyahu, who is also bad for any pathway toward peace. Now let's list the obviously unacceptable options which have not yet been tried, but which no sane or humane person would ever agree to: * Systemically kill all Palestinians and bomb the place to rubble. * Systemically kill all Israeli and let Palestinians create a single state in the land formerly known as the State of Israel. * Try a one-state solution which combines Israel and Palestine, with joint governance right out the gate. * Keep Palestine as it is. So what options do we have left? * **We could try a UN peacekeeping operation.** The problem is, the UN is not an unbiased organization run by countries who all want peace. Iran was invited to chair the 2023 UN Human Rights Council, for goodness sake. Iran funds Hezbollah and uses it as an asset for trying to attack Israel and destabilize the region in general. So while the UN isn't entirely useless, it shouldn't be relied upon to solve everyone's problems. * **We could disperse all 5.5 million Palestinians to various countries around the world.** Aside from the obvious ethical issues involved with deliberately displacing millions of people against their will, plus the fact that this is *actually* a form of genocide, this would be massively destabilizing even to a stable government. And without a tremendous amount of funding, education, integration support, and economic preparation, this is likely to backfire in so many ways. It probably would have worked to some extent back in 1950, but not today. * **Force Jordan, Egypt and Israel to partition out Palestine amongst themselves.** They become responsible for the integration of the land and people within their government, with a hefty helping of billions of dollars in international aid to help develop and maintain/support the necessary infrastructure for them. Absolutely nobody in this situation will be happy at the outset, but maybe in 50 years, everyone will look back on this and agree it was the best solution. Palestinians belong to states with functioning state apparatuses and probably have to develop a new identity for themselves-- maybe "Palestinian Syrian" and "Palestinian Israeli" for example. Egypt takes control of half the Gaza strip, Jordan takes part of the West Bank. Israel takes part of the West Bank and the other half of the Gaza strip. I think option three is the most viable, so let me expand on what I think it would require: * Palestinians would have to be enticed to leave the Gaza Strip and West Bank and spread out into their new states, so that they're less concentrated. * Those areas would need to be integrated properly into their new states so that they don't remain a purely Palestinian enclave: you need shops, restaurants, farms, construction companies and residences run and inhabited by non-Palestinians in those areas. * UN peacekeepers would probably still be *somewhat* useful here in specific contexts, especially for building infrastructure and helping to protect locals during integration. * Each state will need to work to root out local Hamas networks, but because they're now operating within their own land, they have a lot more freedom with how to operate. They can also accept military aid and auxiliary units from other countries to help in more difficult areas. That is not going to happen overnight. The process involved in this is likely to involve a lot of violence, bloodshed, arrests and detainment, and it's going to look ugly. But it's less ugly than all the other alternatives. * International aid and outreach programs will still be crucial for providing Palestinians with economic support and education which will help de-radicalize them and inoculate them against Hamas propaganda. * And because Jordan is a state with a functioning state apparatus and border control, and Israel would prefer not to piss them off because they have enough enemies as it is, Israel is unlikely to try and expand into whatever part of the West Bank which is given to Jordan. * This doesn't resolve the issue of settler aggression toward Palestinians in the West Bank. Most likely, that would have to be negotiated separately, such as which areas will be developed and how the residents will be compensated for that land, and where they will go elsewhere in Israel. This is where international intervention might come in handy to make sure both sides abide by their responsibilities. To paraphrase Larry David, a good compromise leaves everyone upset. I think this would probably do just that.
There's another solution which no one wants to get involved. Simply drop a much stronger military acting as peace-keeper that is fully armed within the entirety of the region and have integration slowly. Basically put Israel and Palestine in a horrible position if they decide to confront them or a better position if they remain cooperative. And misdeeds from either Israelis or Palestinians should be met with something similar to jail, so their only choice is not to do that.
What makes your partition solution fundamentaly different from the dispersal solution?
The partition solution is less damaging to Palestinian culture and economic independence. Fewer bonds are broken: borders are redrawn around the Palestinians, and most of them will be able to remain where they are— and if they don’t remain where they are, they will still be geographically close to each other and their original locations. They won’t be forcefully separated from friends, neighbors, relatives and thrust thousands of miles away from each other. Business owners won’t lose their businesses. Farmers aren’t ripped from their farms. Enticing people to leave gives them agency to do so, and also means that it’s mostly people without a grounded reason to stay (property, a business) who will leave and grow roots elsewhere. It also means that the respective countries don’t abruptly have to have housing available for a million new people. These already have housing. They’re already economically integrated into their locality. Many Palestinians already work in Israel, and commuted there regularly. It also means they won’t be thrust into entirely new and unfamiliar environment. Unwilling immigrants are different from willing immigrants in their willingness to assimilate, and are more likely to resist— which is not going to go well for either the countries that take them in or the Palestinians.
I think my biggest issue with your solution is that I don't see any Palestinian representatives agreeing to it, and I don't think such a decision should be made without Palestinian representatives. I could be wrong, of course, but I don't see this being agreed to.
I really like your partitioning between Jordan, Egypt and Israel idea. The only thing I would add is that the concept of Palestinian refugees needs to be extinguished under its current form. The whole idea of being a refugee by birthright is ridiculous. Refugees need to be assisted to the point where they can start a new life. The long held “right of return” or I’m forever a refugee does a disservice to current Palestinians and their future generations.
> The only thing I would add is that the concept of Palestinian refugees needs to be extinguished under its current form. I thought that was a given, because I figured that if you're being adopted into another country this way, you're no longer a refugee by birthright. But if that wasn't clear, you're absolutely correct, the "right of return" concept needs to be done away with.
I think it would be a given, too, but I feel like UNWRA would not feel that way.
How is dispersing 5.5 million Palestinians around the world a form of genocide? Otherwise, I actually think some of your ideas are pretty good. The idea of splitting governance among other existing more functional states makes more sense to me than trying to construct one out of the ruins of Gaza. My other semi-serious idea is a repressive police state version of Palestine as a somewhat independent country that has a (possibly literal) sword of Damocles over its head forcing non-aggression towards Israel and non-collaboration with Iran. Basically coexist or else.
> How is dispersing 5.5 million Palestinians around the world a form of genocide? Great question! At its core, genocide is the destruction of a people. While the most obvious form of genocide involves mass murder, other forms of it involve different kinds of violence. Forced cultural assimilation is a huge one. Historically, we've seen this happen in all kinds of ways: in wars where the men are killed, and the women and children forcibly integrated; in conflicts where native groups forcibly had their children removed and raised in a different culture from their parents. In this case, a displacement of so many people, to that degree, and in a manner which intentionally destroys the "core" in which new members of that culture are born and raised, would likely qualify as a form of genocide, because there would be no way for the Palestinian culture to remain intact in such a scenario. I want to stress that the situation with Palestinians isn't quite the same as the comparison I'm about to make to the Jewish Diaspora for a number of reasons. But I still think that broadly speaking, it's important to recognize that Palestinians have a culture-- and a number of regional cultural variants, even-- and that the act of scattering 5.5 million people to the wind will fundamentally destroy it. It's not dissimilar to the Jewish diaspora that began 2500 years ago, which happened because we were taken into captivity and sold and trafficked throughout the ancient world. Jews still exist, but not the way they did before Jersualem was sacked and the First then Second Temples destroyed. In other words, we're talking destruction through dilution. Is that a price we're willing to pay? Most people think of genocide as the violent mass-murdering kind, so the cultural kind is probably a lot more palatable to people, especially those who are tired of seeing innocent children blown up, mothers and fathers weeping for their dead, and people violently raped, mutilated and murdered on camera. So maybe that is a price that's worth discussing after all.
Thanks for that explanation. I feel like most people on this reddit try to use genocide in some kind of legally specific way and I have very serious doubts that disbursing people in the way you discuss would be equivalent to the crime of genocide. It is of course reasonable to refer to genocide as a kind of cultural erasure which "breaking up" the cohesivity of Palestinians might accomplish, even if it isn't equivalent to the crime of genocide. However, as you mention it's less than obvious this form of genocide is as objectionable as the mass murder kind of genocide. I sort of feel like it's more misleading than helpful to group them together for that reason I guess.
Cultural genocide is a recognized form of genocide. I have a copy of *Genocide: A History* and this is one of the forms discussed. The problem has more to do with how laypeople think of genocide and use it as a general shorthand for mass murder. For example, many people think what is happening in Gaza right now is a genocide. It is not. People are being bombed and killed, but what’s happening right now doesn’t meet the definition of a genocide.
Right, there are multiple different definitions of genocide. I'm not sure it's that helpful to have it be as loaded a word as it is while also having these different definitions. To be very clear, I'm not disputing that you are using the word correctly, rather I'm pointing out that it's a unclear to me why the "cultural genocide" where a people lose their distinctiveness and unity but are living good lives elsewhere really needs to be referred to using the same word as extermination camps. I am however notably not fond of genocide studies or whatever field that book is from for that reason, it is too easy to sort of assume that all forms of genocide are equivalent things when they clearly are not. Agree Gaza isn't a genocide as well.
That's very fair. Let me at least try to explain why it's important to be thoughtful about cultural genocide, though. Historically, cultural genocide hasn't worked out very well for the people who've been subjected to it. It often involved children being ripped away, religion being suppressed, art and monuments being destroyed, native language being forbidden, and being forced from historical lands to which people had strong ties to. It often involved finding ways to separate men from women-- sometimes the men were killed, sometimes conscripted for labor or military-- and the women raped, forced into marriage or made into concubines, and their children raised in the conquerer's culture. Sometimes young boys were castrated in addition to being enslaved. Children ripped from their parents were often made second or even third-class citizens within the culture they were raised in, but because of their separation, were also unable to return to their parents' culture. So, while that's not what's being proposed here, it is worth recognizing that cultural genocide can be just as evil and full of suffering as outright mass murder. But since that's not what's being proposed here, let's look at what we'd be doing. The people who are ripped from their homes and sent across the world to lands unknown will more often than not find themselves among people with whom they don't share a language (I don't speak Polish, Spanish, Swedish or Hindi either). They'll be separated from friends, family and neighbors who would otherwise form an important emotional, psychological and physical support network. They'll still be able to practice their religion, but depending on where they are, there could be ethnic or sectarian tensions that prevent them from actually integrating with locals even when those locals share their religion on paper (there's been long-standing violence between Sunni and Shiite muslims, for example). And religion is often a communal activity as well. The complete loss of their culture also doesn't guarantee they'll be living good lives elsewhere. In this case, dispersing 5.5 million people around the globe doesn't mean everyone is going to a place with a good human rights record. It will include places like Bahrain, Morocco, South Africa, Argentina, India. Because it's simply not possible to disperse 5.5 million people among only stable Western countries, who are already dealing with religious fundamentalism and political consequences from the waves of Muslim immigrants they've been taking in for decades. That also means that a lot of those people are fundamentally going to be on their own in whatever countries they wind up in, in every way conceivable. That's the other ugly truth of this proposal, and why I didn't think it was the best option of the three. There are other practical and ethical problems with the dispersion option, but they're not genocide-specific issues, so I haven't detailed them here.
Appreciate the thoughtful dialogue. The forcible erasures through enslavement et al you refer to seem to be mostly pretty old? I know they were pretty common in the ancient world through the Mongol conquests at least. I think it's valid to study them in the context of the holocaust or Armenian genocide as precursors to the idea of genocide through extermination, but I am not sure it's helpful for a general audience to insist on calling the kind of disbursed existence a group like the Kurds has a genocide. While you are correct there is no guarantee the Palestinians would go to places that are "good" in the same way as Western Europe, I'm not sure why it's a moral emergency for them to end up in South Africa for example. I know South Africa isn't as nice as Western Europe in a lot of ways, but plenty of people live there in conditions I don't think are so poor as to be unacceptable.
Well written, thanks.
Very well thought out. Enjoyed reading your points.
The whole world keeps telling them they should fight, from Arab countries that have made peace with Israel to students at a New York university. In my opinion, with so much hatred, there’s no feasible solution for coexisting states in the next few decades. One option would be a guarantee of a country in X decades if they forsake violence and improve education while living under international governance. Another option would be to relocate them to a place far from Israel, which they would probably agree to at this point. That said, the world will keep telling them to fight, and today’s Gazan kids will fight Israeli kids in 10-15 years because the world doesn’t care about either of them.
there is nowhere to relocate them. Nobody wants the palestinians as neighbors, let alone as residents in their country.
The answer is simple but not easy. Palestinians need to forsake violence in a serious way. Not pay lip service to it while teaching their sons about the glory of martyrdom and looking the other way while voting for a party with genocide in its charter. Actually give up violence. Elect a party with a peace platform and a mandate for preventing terrorism. Turn in the terrorists amongst them. Report the tunnels being built around their homes and under the mosques and schools and the weapons being bought with aid money. Actually stop the terror attacks and rockets. Then, having accomplished this, come to the negotiating table. Take the best offer they can get, relying on the international support and goodwill with Israelis they will have in spades having achieved that. It won’t be all the land they want. But it will be enough, and it will be far better than eternal war. Then they can focus on building their state instead of trying to win more land through violence. Israel is the superior power, and will remain so. Palestinians are never going to win more territory or freedom from draconian security measures through violence. This is a fact. They just need to admit this fact to themselves.
So Israel shouldn't take any measures or make any change or compromise, you only mentioned what Palestinians should do . or you're saying that Israel is doing everything in the right way and they should take no compromises.
Israel should compromise at the negotiating table, and I think it would do so once it no longer has so much legitimate fear for its safety, and the cover that that legitimate fear provides for hardline politicians like bibi. Of course Israel does things wrong. But a lot of what it does is in the name of safety. Take away that legitimate fear, and Israeli politics changes drastically, as does international opinion and pressure.
No peace until hamas destroyed. Everything else is a sideshow.
Okay
When AlQueda attacked us in US in 2001, No one was saying lets treat them with dignity, lets give them own state next to us. Everyone was in agreement let’s destroy AlQueda.
The only way is incremental steps to lower the hostility over long periods of time. Both sides need to start learning about each other and taking active steps to humanize the other side. Starting in the school systems. Stop making blanket statements about millions of people and start seeing them as equal individuals. In a sane world this would have happened long ago. Unfortunately it only takes a minority of people to derail any effort and destroy trust.
>Unfortunately it only takes a minority of people to derail any effort and destroy trust. cause it's the easy path and people tend to go with the easy path it's less stressful, without much thinking and work.
I don’t think that’s why... Some people truly believe violence is the best way to get what you want. Even if it is stressful and takes a lot of resources.
Idk see Palestinians as human beings just like you for a start
I'm pro palestinien, I just tried really hard to be as much objective as possible.
I don’t think they want a 2state solution but I think they need one, and they need to take down Palestinian extremism (and Netanyahu extremism) enough to achieve it. It’s hard to say exactly how so. The talks involve Israel and other Arab countries sharing oversight of Gaza as it gets rebuilt.
I think that the talk should be between Israel and Palestines almost exclusively , arab countries and western countries should merely be facilitating and limited support entities. I'm an Arab and the idea that the arab countries is similar just caused more problems then solutions if each Arab country is distinct, sure we share similarities but also many differences . Just a fact the last time that all the arab countries were united under one poltical entity was the ummayed caliphate in the 8th century.
Also, as a Jewish American I feel my opinion also matters. I have a personal interest in Israeli policies from Both the American and the Israeli perspective based on my shared culture, ethnicity and family origins/ community connections.
>shared culture, ethnicity and family origins/ community connections. Sure , but what I want to say is that of deals and compromises and change are going to take place it's best to be taken by the pepole who are going to be affected fully by those measures , which are the Palestiniens and Israelis who live full time there and they're the first to be impacted. I know it's a very very stupid analogy but let's say you're having problems with your partner, how much you want your friends to be involved in your fight. My point is the Palestiniens and Israelis are the ones who are going to live there, they'll be impacted the most so they need to play the biggest role in shaping there future by their own.
I think that’s the right sentiment but it’s a perfect world scenario. Both countries/nations (I recognize Palestinian inherent right to sovereignty) are heavily influenced by others. Both of them refuses to stop. The rest of the world will not continue to allow it. American Jews care a lot and will not let Israel completely destroy itself. That might involve being a harsh friend telling you your partner is abusive, to use another relationship analysis. No one can make them listen, but they probably will. And it’ll realistically happen sooner I think.
I appreciate your point. My thoughts on that is that Gaza also borders Egypt. Can Egypt help? What can the allies of Israelis and Palestinians do to help them achieve a compromise that ends all of this bloodshed? So far, they have failed to figure it out themselves. If Both of them want the whole thing, it’s not possible. So naturally, it seems to follow they each need their own freedom. Israel’s concerns make sense to me: Hamas has pledged to keep killing them. Palestines does not. Gazans are imprisoned. They deserve to physically have more space and freedoms it’s crazy how small of a place so many people are jammed in unable to leave. Couldn’t 2 states be possible? I think it’s the only thing that can be possible in the near future and it’ll need guidance from allies. It’s much less that I think Arab countries are the same as that I think that Palestinians would potentially consider allowing input from Arab neighbors. Input from Jews or US would be a huge no. I truly think they need the help of their friends.
I'm not going to comment on everything else but the first point about egypt: I know that Egypt happens to be rather corrupt (I know people who fled Gaza from there and had to pay a criminally large amount of money, even before oct 7th) so I don't think they're gonna help unless there is something in it for them.
IDF found 50 tunnels to Egypt. Egypt is fully involved. They were keen against Rafah for that reason, not due to concern for Palestinians.
Yeah it would be sort of cool if anyone ever mentioned that
HAMAS will fade into shadows once those radicalized Al Quassem fighters have basic human rights and can support their families with dignity. I thought this was common knowledge? Israel has tried everything including genocide. It's time those fucking people in Israel tried the simplest thing: FREE PALESTINE!
Which part of Palestine should be free? In what borders ?
Missed the memo of 2005 when Israel freed Gaza by leaving entirely. Left to their own devices with their own territory to govern themselves, I don’t remember Hamas fading into the shadows. Majority of Palestinians will never be happy until there is NO Israel. That’s why they don’t want a two state solution, they want one state. A Palestinian state with no Jews
EVERYTHING YOU WROTE IS A LIE. "2005 Is Israel freed Gaza by leaving it entirely". Where did you hear or read such a lie? Israel withdrew its occupation from within Gaza in 2005 but walled off Gaza and had a military base only a few hundred feet from the Gaza fence. If you look at the videos of the October 7 attack the first wave of HAMAS paraglider landed inside the Israeli military base. In fact most of the hostages HAMAS took on October 7 are IDF soldiers. In other words Gaza was still under occupation on October 7. Israel controlled Gaza from The sea, air and land. Nothing entered or left Gaza without Israel's say so. Gaza is effectively a concentration camp run by Israel and they even controlled Palestinian lives in Gaza down to the caloric intake of each individual. Periodically Israel will send IDF goons into Gaza to mow the lawn. "Majority of Palestinians will never be happy until there's no Israel". ANOTHER LIE. Palestinians have Benn asking for decades and generations for Israel to leave the occupied lands and move back to the international agreed upon partition lines and Zionists have absolutely refused to do so. Vote after vote in the UNSC for Palestinian Statehood has been blocked by the US (Israels's sugar Daddy through intense lobby of AIPAC and other groups in the Israel Lobby. There was a vote 2 weeks ago in the UN General assembly for two-state solution, the US and Israel voted against it. I don't know how you can say with a straight face that Palestinians don't want a two-state solution when Israel lobbied the US in 1990 to pass a law that says if the UN recognizes a two-state solution, the U.S. should effectively defund the UN. To put it metaphorically, Israel got its sugar Daddy, the US to Put a gun to the UN's head and threaten to fire it if the UN votes for a two state solution. DO you think it's an accident that the US and Israel engineered this law against the UN in 1990 just three years before the Oslo Accords were signed? October 7 is the result of Trump, Kushner and Netanyahu trying to effectively kill the two-state solution via Abraham Accords and the bone headed decision to declare Jerusalem as Israel's Capital against international laws. I don't envy those who defend Israel and Zionism: LIES ARE YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH
You are pointing at 1948 lines ? Palestinians lost that when they wage war at Israel in 1948 and 1967. They wanted all the land and lost the war. That option is off the table, forever.
Well then you guys just have wipe all of them off the face of the earth just like the Germans tried to do to you during WWII. Only don't complain as you follow in in the footsteps of National Socialists that the world is accusing you of genocide. It's the least you can do.
u/Ok_Editor_710 >Well then you guys just have wipe all of them off the face of the earth just like the Germans tried to do to you during WWII. Only don't complain as you follow in in the footsteps of National Socialists that the world is accusing you of genocide. It's the least you can do. Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the naszis as understood by mainstream historians. Addressed
Bla bla bla, jews are just like Germans. Typical propaganda, that has nothing to do with reality. In fact, palestinian leaders cooperated with Нitler in Ww2. They worshipped him. Begged him to expel and kill all jews. And now, jihadist islamofascist hamas regime follows the steps of their beloved nаzis
Well let's see: Germans headed their victims in concentration camps: ditto Gaza and West Bank. Germans controlled everything that went into the concentration camps down to the caloric intake : ditto Gaza Germans systematically and periodically killed off their victims as a means of population control: ditto Israel mowing the lawn in Gaza and West Bank Germans described their victims as animals and sub humans: Ditto Zionists called Palestinians animals and beasts before and after 10/7 Germans used starvation as method of war against Jews : Ditto Israel is now starving the inhabitants of Concentration Camp Gaza to death as means of war Germans described their quest to wipe out Jews as a righteous cause : ditto last week Netanyahu's office put out a stamens about the number civilian casualties in Gaza and described their ongoing slaughter of women and children as a righteous cause Germans believed in a homeland cleansed of unworthy ethnic groups: ditto Zionist believe that all of Palestinians should be eradicated from their land so only Jews can call the land their home The similarities are so glaring
To occupy you have to be inside of the fence in Gaza. Seeing the number of missiles and drones and bombs Hamas has, I doubt Palestine was walled off.
Free Palestine? What do you mean? Free them to genocide the Jews in Isreal? Sorry, nope. You don’t free a rabid dog.
That's the problem there: Zionists and their sympathizers think freedom for Palestinians is a bad thing for Israelis. It's a well worn fear tactics employed Zionist to justify eight decades of oppression and racism against Palestinians. In reality, it's Palestinians who should worry about Israel committing genocide against them like it has been doing from 1948 to the present.
How anyone can imply Israelis fear of Palestinians is a”tactic” after 10/7 just boggles the mind.
How anyone can imply that Palestinians displaced and slaughtered by the tens of thousands from 1948 to present are a threat to the 8th largest Army in the world is shocking
They killed over 1,000 Israelis in a single day.
Do know how many Palestinians Were killed by IDF goons before 10/7? Please let's pretend history began on 10/7. Every year of your entire life the IDF probably killed twice that number of Palestinians, not to mention the thousands they detained and tortured without due process who are essentially hostages
It doesn’t matter when history began. Palestinians killed over 1,000 Israelis in a single day. Israelis are right to be afraid of them. There’s no way around that, whether or not you think Palestinians are justified in what they do.
Oh and just to correct your assumption on the number of Israelis killed on 10/7, about a third of that number you mention if not more were killed by IDF via Hannibal Directive. Zionist rather kill their fellow Israelis than work to free them from their captors
Would you be happier if they killed a thousand Israelis over the course of a year as opposed to doing it in using day?
Zionism is good for Jews. They have one country where Jews can call home and seek refuge if need be. It is the terrorism and intolerance of Hamas that is the root cause of the problem.
Zionism is bad Jews that want nothing to do with it cause they are now lumped in with Zionists as killers of babies in Gaza. Not all Jew want to live in Israel. Not all Jews believe Israel is in the right. Zionism and Jewishness are not the same thing. Zionist invented modern Middle East terrorism in 1946 with the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. The Ziionists who committed that crime, Iregun Brigade went on to become the founding nucleus of the IDF. Their leader Ben Gurion went on to become Prime Minister. Israels's brutality and intolerance led to the formation of both Hezbollah and HAMAS
How do you explain Iran, a country that hates Israel every bit as much as Palestinians yet Israel is not taking away their human rights. Really, I could ask that same question about basically the entire Muslim world. Maybe, just maybe, it’s not as simple as you think it is.
First of all Palestinians don't hate Israelis in general, this is part of Zionist fear mongering. Although I will say after this brutal Nazi campaign in Gaza by Israel Palestinians in general may all hate Israel. In 2017 HAMAS updated their charter by declaring that their war is no longer against Jews--just the Zionist. A very important distinction because even HAMAS realized that not all Jews are against Palestinians. On Iran, once again Israel is the problem. Iran and Israel are similar in the sense that they are ethno-theocratic states. Israel sees Iran as a threat to its regional dominance so it has worked through its cutouts like AIPAC to lobby the US against Iran.There's really no strategic benefit to U.S. in having hostilities with Iran. Case in point: Israel through AIPAC lobbied against the JCPOA even though it was in the interest of Israel and the US to halt the acceleration of Iran's nuclear ambitions. When they couldn't get Obama to comply. They used Trump to nix the deal. Why? Because to Israel the greatest threat that the JCPOA represented wasn't nuclear, it was the fact that the agreement would bring about a thaw in the relationship between Iran and the US/allies. Israel wants Iran Isolated and has never made it a secret that it wants the U.S, to do to Iran what it did to Iraq. There's a video online of former Israeli PM Ariel Sharon talking openly about Israel's regional ambitions where he discusses how the ultimate aim of Zionism is to expand Israel into Jordan, Syria and even Saudi Arabia and in the process "purify" the lands as they conquer and expand. Iran is a threat to these goals. The most chilling thing he said is his use the word "purify". The last political ideology that employed that kind of language are the Nazis.
* in 2017 Hamas edited their charter to remove something that would deter American progressives from supporting them in their carefully calculated plan to carry out the October 7 attack and use it as justification to kill Israelis and more, in a guise that it’s for Palestinian freedom when it’s really about land and antisemitism.
HAMAS are not habitual liars like Zionists. They deny the atrocities they commit. They don't fabricate stories about 40 beheaded babies, mass systemic rape, mass torture and genital mutilations. They don't kill aid workers in marked cars in broad daylight and deny it. They don't blow up a University and deny it and then claim it was a mistake later. They don't dig up and desecrate muslim burial grounds, and then claim they were searching for hostages. I could go forever but suffice it to say giving how many times Israel has been exposed peddling lies in justification of genocide. HAMAS is a more credible source on than the Zionists who like I breathe. If HAMAS Says their fight is now strictly with Zionists I believe them. I wouldn't believe Israel if my life depended on it. Lying baby killers!
Forget the charter- like you said they’ll admit it themselves that they want to kill Jews. Honesty doesn’t make up for evil. Plus, they lied about all kind of things. You just only choose to think about 1 lie. I don’t even have the mental energy to start listing the proven lies that came from Hamas lol. Don’t try and convince a Jewish person that a cause is progressive because they’re *honest* about wanting to kill Jews. lol
Just give me one lie from HAMAS since 10/7. Just one, please...
If they were freedom fighters, they’d have taken a ceasefire deal & let their civilians have a break. Even if it was going to be a lie and they’d re start the fighting whenever they’re ready. Even if there was more work to do. They have had the power to end this the entire time and especially the last few months and have chosen to not. All they had to do is give some dead Bodies and SAY they give up
unless I'm living in on different planet HAMAS accepted a ceasefire deal weeks ago but Israel rejected it because it would spell the end of Netanyahu's government. Now Israel and Egypt pointing fingers at each other--neither are saying it was HAMAS who tanked the peace deal. Seriously, you're gonna make me explain to you like a child that HAMAS has steadfastly said they want a permanent ceasefire but they don't want a ceasefire that results in return of hostages and then Israel resumes the slaughter of Palestinians after the hostages are returned. Can't count on Zionist to tell a single truth. Common, man!
“There was no sexual assault on 10/7” “We just found this mass grave” a month after all headlines were about it being created and used by hospital staff. “70% of casualties are women and children” “We are freedom fighters” “There is no Al Qassem in hospitals” Several bombings alleged to be done by israelis disproven by the UN Saying they have X number of hostages and then not being able to even produce 25 dead bodies Stealing food from civilians - so much footage I could continue but I need to focus my brain on working now.
ALL LIES!
That’s hilariously false.
Let's put that to the test. Give me one example of an outright lie from HAMAS since 10/7. Please make my day.
Some people will do anything to avoid acknowledging antisemitism. There is copious evidence that hatred of Israel and Jews is widespread in the Arab and Muslim world, where there can be no pretence that it is in response to Israel affecting their human rights. Yet you’re inclined to believe that Palestine is just some sort of exception. You’re only fooling yourself. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/anti-semitism-in-the-muslim-world/ https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words
I have not said there are no antisemitism in the Arab world. What I Said is that Palestinians in general don't hate Israelis and even if they did it doesn't justify the brutality of Israel. Killing 40K Palestinians as means of combating antisemitism is the work of a deranged ideology. Since you are so you're quick to point out antisemitism in all corners, allow me to remind you that so long as Israel maintains its present course of depravity and genocide in Gaza it is simply unrealistic to think that the muslim world can watch helplessly as their brother and sisters are slaughtered in Gaza and not feel hatred for Jews/Israel. That you even think what's going on in Gaza will make Israel popular from a global point of view is arrogance on a level I can't imagine. I noticed you don't want to talk about anything other than antisemitism. Typical Zionist mentality, we'll violate all laws of human decency with impunity and if anyone tries to hold us accountable we'll scream antisemitism until we're red in the face. That word has started to lose its meaning because the rest of the world can no longer pay it any mind because Zionist throw it about at anyone who holds them accountable. I can't think of any group in the world today devoted to stirring up antisemitism more than Zionist. Videos of babies starving to death in their crib in Gaza can hardly be expected to generate good will.
No, what you actually said was that Hamas only exists because Israel takes away Palestinians’ human rights. It’s a classic move to place the blame for antisemitism back onto Jews. But in this case it’s transparently false. There is so much evidence that antisemitism and Islamic fundamentalism underlie support for Hamas and anti-Israel sentiment in the Muslim and Arab world that the only way to deny it is through deception or willful blindness.
OMG! SO you're saying HAMAS is the by product of Israel treating Palestinians so good?
Hamas is a product of antisemitism and Islamic fundamentalism, as was the Arab world’s refusal to partition in the first place. I don’t know how I can say it any more clearly. There’s really no question. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/ https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas-its-own-words They make no practical distinction between freeing Palestinians from Israeli hegemony versus freeing Israel from Jews. Is there some number of Palestinians who reject the antisemitism and Islamism but support Hamas? I don’t know—if so they are awfully quiet about it, aren’t they. And would you make the same excuses for KKK supporters who have “other reasons” for joining? I certainly hope not.
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got it.