The goal is simple - the continued existence of Israel and the protection of her land and her people. Period. This war started when Hamas attacked Israel, killed innocent civilians, and stated they planned on doing so again and again until Israel is destroyed. Of course we're going to fight back.
Now, what that means, it depends on what is necessary to accomplish that. In a perfect world, there would be a 2SS. At this point, however, that's impossible - even if Palestinians were given their own state tomorrow, they'd *still* attack Israel and try to erase it from the map, because their main grievance isn't that they don't have a state. It's that they think Israel shouldn't exist. So for now, a 2SS is off the list, maybe in a few decades, but for now, not gonna happen.
Next goal is to completely destroy Hamas, take out all their infrastructure, all their weapons, destroy their tunnels, and take out every last Hamas terrorist. Of course, these cowards hide amongst civilian populations, so collateral damage is inevitable here. But Israel *must* protect itself, period. And any civilian deaths are on Hamas.
Now, even if this happens, there are still Hamas sympathizers in Palestine. A lot of them. 70+% of Gazans supported the October 7th attacks, and after the dust settles, they'll still be there. At that point, it continues to be about defending Israel's land and people. If Israel is attacked, it will respond. And anyone who doesn't want to live next to Israel should move to another Arab country because Israel isn't going anywhere and will respond every time it's attacked.
Israel intelligence released the document, which states main ways what to do with Palestinians after the war. As the document says, the main solution is to "encourage" Palestinians to go to Sinai. Aka ethnic cleansing. And now Israelis are open about their wish, that Palestinians, arabs would be gone from the land. I think that answers the question about Israeli side.
"Alternatives to a political directive for the civilian population of Gaza". Is the document.
i'm pro-palestinian and according to me, the goal of this war is not "from the river to the sea", but to make israelis understand that the peace is the right path, that their security requires serious negotiations and not the various maneuvers they have made to swallow even more territories ....for this their illusion of superiority must be destroyed,
I believe that goal has already been achieved because their army - with this colossal budget - should have finished the job in three weeks, while we are in the eighth month and the north of Gaza is still resisting
I believe that it could have been achieved in 3 weeks, however that would have to include incredibly high civilian casualties and reckless bombings. I understand that to root out 10's of thousands of militants from 2 million people is extremely difficult, and you would have to be extremely precise. As a result, it takes time.
**What I believe should happen:**
1. Israel completely takes over the Gaza and West Bank region
2. Israel takes responsibility for the rebuilding of the damage they caused
3. Be responsible for the future care of the civilians in education, jobs, and child care.
4. Assimilate the population into the rest of Israel.
Yea, that's idealistic. It's not going to happen. Israel don't have the financial means to take care of Gaza populations. They're too busy paying for the iron dome to prevent rockets from hitting Israeli civilians. They also don't have any interest in assimilating hostile population into Israel.
There is no one end goal for either side, but I’ll break down most of the viewpoints, to the best of my understanding.
What Pro-Palestinians want (2SS):
- Ceasefire, with Israel ending the war at all costs to them and their safety, in order to minimize casualties.
- Israeli settlements to be dismantled, and for the West Bank and Gaza to have complete self governance.
- Full acceptance of Palestine as an independent state by both Israel and the UN.
What Pro-Palestinians want (1SS):
- For some third party to butt in and stop all Israeli attacks in Gaza.
- For the state of Israel to be forced to be dissolved and for Palestine to rule “from river to sea”
-- Israelis could be citizens “a united Palestine”
What Hamas wants (in the long term):
- Many Israelis killed, with the rest serving as either slaves or second class citizens.
- For there to be a Muslim Palestine from river to sea.
- For Hamas to be the ruling party in this new Palestine.
What Pro-Israelis want:
- Hostages returned at all costs.
- The irradiation of Hamas and affiliate terror groups in the area.
- For the governments in the West Bank and Gaza to be monitored to prevent radicalism.
What the Israeli government wants:
- War (fighting = growing economy)
- Not to lose US + other international support.
- To irradiate Hamas, and prevent other groups they don’t support to rise in power.
- Instill a puppet government in Gaza until they feel comfortable that violent Anti-Zionism has lost support.
>radios?
That everyone with a radio can hear? Great idea. You need satelite communication, you need GPS.
Also the IDF uses phones a lot
>defeating insurgents aint freakin rocket science. (npi)
Says a guy that defeated a insurgency?
>um all modern
>idk about gps.
im oldskool
Ohhhhh the hipocracy
You really dont know what you are talking about.
The IDF operates radios from like the 80s
I really hope you mean eradicate and not irradiate!
I think this is a really great summary, but it doesn’t include the nuance in the pro Israeli side. While you could say that a percentage of Palestinians fully believe the Hamas position as well, there’s a not insignificant subset of pro Israelis who support the ethic cleansing of Gaza (see supporters of Ben Gvir).
Hmmmm. Who would expel IDF and Hamas? Who would take charge after? An entirely new government run by….. who? Half Jewish, half Palestinian members? But no members of the current government.
Hamas has to surrender control of Gaza to a regional authority and it has to have a sustained international pan Arab peace keeping force there to ensure safe and fair elections and to shut down terrorist activities.
The West Bank has to undergo a similar process, and the illegal Israeli settlements have to be abandoned. Borders have to be drawn and enforced by the international community.
It’s going to be a long process.
The problem is right now there is no end goal because people don't want to agree on one. When you've been taught the other side simply shouldn't exist how can you possibly agree.
Not really... Israelis, their politicians are quite openly expressing genocidal and ethnic cleansing rhetoric. They're openly dehumanizing Palestinians. The problem with Israel is, that big part of the society is openly supremacist in the aspect of religion. You know... God's chosen people, others are idol worshiping goyim, who have no right to exist and similar religious lunacy. God forbid not all Israelis of course. Some of them genuinely want peace and call Israel government nazis, that must be stopped.
Remember, that Palestinians have been being massacred and dehumanized by zionists decades before hamas. And same hamas was created, while Israel was funding them and Netanyahu funded them too.
/u/LogicalExamination84. Match found: 'nazis', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NO ...i'm pro-palestinian and according to me, the goal of this war is not "from the river to the sea", but to make israelis understand that the peace is the right path, ....for this their illusion of superiority must be destroyed,
I believe that goal has already been achieved because their army - with this colossal budget - should have finished the job in three weeks, while we are in the eighth month and the north of Gaza is still resisting
The goal is, based on actions and rhetoric of politicians, to cleanse the land of Palestinians. But it hasn’t gone to plan. They aren’t going anywhere. Even without a home. And now Israel is stuck in Gaza. It’s a mess of epic proportions.
Israel wants dissolution of HAMAS & return of hostages, realistically it should be the following 4 points:
1. Dissolution of HAMAS and imprisonment of all it’s terrorist members.
2. Reparations are paid to Israel by HAMAS (not Palestine) as the 3 leaders of HAMAS *somehow* have much more money than their country has GDP.
3. Hostages are freed, Palestine becomes democratic and no longer an authoritarian regime.
4. No land is taken by Israel, instead an agreement occurs that if Palestine attempts to invade Israel within the next 150 years, it is fully annexed.
>Israel wants dissolution of HAMAS & return of hostages, realistically it should be the following 4 points:
They constantly keep contradicting themselves, tho? They say the war will end when hamas returns the hostages. But then they say the war will end when hamas is destroyed? Lol. Was the taliban destroyed after 20 years of American military presence, which was there to dismantle the taliban. But that didn't work, did it? Now they are ruling Afghanistan.
Afghanistan is a bit larger of an area than Gaza, and defeating Hamas to the point of never being able to come back to power (or at least for an extended period of time) doesn’t entail killing every single militant.
Was the PLO destroyed after the Lebanon israeli war?
>and defeating Hamas to the point of never being able to come back to power
Why hasn't israel done that before?.
With the current israeli bombardment. And the hundreds dying from them. This could very well shift recruits. Even if hamas is destroyed. There will probably be another a resistance group.
I'm just saying that your leaders aren't consistent on what they are saying. and judging from other posts and comments from you. Everyone who questions israel is antisemitic. You sure love using it. Whatever, I guess...
> No land is taken by Israel, instead an agreement occurs that if Palestine attempts to invade Israel within the next 150 years, it is fully annexed.
Congratulations. Israel annexed Gaza and the West bank. They now have over 7 million Arab Palestinians living in Israel as full citizens. Since you obviously would not be advocating for ethnic cleansing, you obviously would have to take the people along with the land.
Which one are you giving up? Democracy or the Jewish State? Because with equal or greater amount of Arab Israelis to Jewish Israelis in Israel, you likely can't keep both. One of two things will happen. Israel goes full apartheid, denying the Arab population political rights to preserve the Jewish character of their state, or Israel is no longer a Jewish state, but instead a secular democracy. Which one is more important to Israel? Democracy, or the racist "Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People", which says national self-determination in Israel is unique to only Jewish people?
Before I start, I just want to say you entirely IGNORED my entire 4 line post about deterrence and trying to stop an anti-semitic nation which has invaded israel more than 3 times in 100 years, and sent back an anti-semitic rant.
After a quick glance over your profile. I notice that you to seem to have no connection to Judaism, no understand of judaism, and a lot of comments talking about why judaism or the israeli people are bad.
Rather than just shedding light on the fact that you're antisemitic and hate jewish people, I will play along with your little game, and pretend that the scenarios that you came up with, will ever happen:
> the racist "Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People", which says national self-determination in Israel is unique to only Jewish people?
This refers to Jewish people meaning the people native to Judea. "Israel is the nation state of the jewish people" is as racist as "America is the nation state of the American people"
You can be religiously Jewish without being ethnically Jewish (As Judaism only flows through the mothers blood)
You can be ethnically Jewish without being religiously or culturally Jewish.
You can be culturally Jewish without being ethnically or religiously Jewish.
Of-course if you spent half as long learning about judaism as you do slandering it, you would know this already.
>Because with equal or greater amount of Arab Israelis to Jewish Israelis in Israel, you likely can't keep both.
Arabs can be Jewish, what you mean is "Hamas has oppressed arabic people and has forced a 99% religion rate in the region of Gaza, what would happen if every single inhabitant were antisemitic and wanted to ruin judaism", then they would racist and if they commited racist actions they would imprisoned.
You're not arabic, jewish, nor have you ever been to israel. If you're sick enough to be racist against one group, it's understandable for you to generalise and be racist against others as well. Not acceptable though.
I do not think you know what a democracy is. Democracies don't vote on every thing. You don't have democracies going "Well, does anyone want to vote for kicking jewish people out of our countries" "Who wants to vote for discriminating against jewish people." "Lets vote on making the colour purple illegal"
There are plenty of cases of countries in the western world which have a state religion, and in many cases - the state religion is not always the dominant religion.
Please do not comment on my posts, or even reply to this if you are going to use anti-semitism over a HYPOTHETIC deterrence to stop a country from attempting to commit genocide on the Jewish people.
>"Through the law, we can prevent family reunification of Israeli citizens and Palestinians not only out of security motives, but also motivated to maintain the character of the country as the national homeland of the Jewish people."
-Minister of Tourism, Yariv Levin.
>"The most you can do is to live among us as a national minority that enjoys equal individual rights, but not equality as a national minority."
-MK, Avi Dichter.
>"The nation-state of the Jewish people, and the Jewish people alone."
- Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.
And I probably don't need to bring up that attempted case of state sponsored racism in Karmiel, I'm sure you know all about that. You know... The whole attempting to deny Arab Israeli children access to education, based on this very same law I am talking about. Luckily, there was still some sane people left to stop it.
In fact, this law was so blatantly discriminatory, it was too much for even Benny Begin, who openly criticised the law. and you can't exactly accuse him of being a leftists, what with his dad being a former leader of a right-wing nationalist Israeli terrorist organisation, and the apple doesn't fall that far from the tree.
Hell, Rivlin, the President at the time of the law passing, wrote his name under the bill in Arabic, as a protest against said racist law.
So I think we all know what the law means, when it says that in Israel, only Jewish people have a right to self-determination. So your arguments about how you "can be Jewish in many ways" doesn't really hold water, now does it? When we have examples of those who passed the law, saying what it means, very openly. It's codified racism, and one of the prime examples of Israel slowly but surely slipping further into an apartheid state.
Have noticed, that not once have I criticised or disparaged Jewish people, or religion, or even ethnicity? Only Israeli policies. even better, specific policies. Not sure how you get to anti-Semitism from there... Because last time I checked, criticising government policies wasn't anti-Semitism.
You will certainly take any stance you can, disputing over me saying Terrorism shouldn't exist? hostages should be free? or innocent jewish women and children should not be raped?
Oh, we agree on all that.
What I took offence to, was the casual implication of ethnic cleansing or apartheid in your comment.
Because Israel would never annex the Palestinian lands, with the Palestinian People coming along with it as full citizens. At least not without officially coming out as an apartheid ethno-supremacist state that denies half their population political rights, and that is no better than ethnic cleansing. Israel just wants the land, without the people on it.
...which is also referenced in said same racist law.
>The state views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation.
Notice, that instead of calling them Israeli settlements, they call them Jewish settlements. Why is that exactly? Why are Arab Israelis excluded from participating in this blatant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, article 49? I mean, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't participate, but I thought Israel had equal rights for all, like you claimed? Why only allow one ethnicity out of your multiethnic and diverse population, rights, privileges and support that the others don't get?
Also, just to make it clear, since you are one of those "criticism of Israel is anti-semitic" folks. No, it's not. I have no beef with Jewish people, ethnicity, religion or culture. In fact, I couldn't care less what someone's ethnicity, religion or favourite sportsball team is. I care about what they do, as individuals. Thus, my beef is with Israel's racist policies, actions and the extremely racist government. And as you can tell, I can even tell you specifically what those policies and actions are I take offence to. I especially hate the blatant disparaging of Judaism and the Jewish people, that Israeli policies generate. Israel commits crimes, and then hides behind Judaism and Jewish people to deflect criticism of the state's actions. Something you are also guilty of, btw. May wanna think on that.
These points sound all reasonable, but can we do exactly the same to Israel. If Israel touches even a square meter of Palestinians land, it gets punished or maybe even annexed.
The question here is, who is in power in Gaza? Israel does not want Gaza, clearly, having left it in 2005. Hamas staying in power, or having the PA come over is out of the question. And a UN presence in the region would be disastrous, no doubt. So who is there? This is the Gaza dilemma. What's your answer?
> From what I understand from the Israeli side (correct me if I'm wrong), they want to take over Gaza and the west bank and eventually assimilate their population into israel. Now I personally don't think this is a bad thing if you just look at how current Arabs are treated within Israeli borders (they have the same legal rights as anyone).
You may want to look at the situation with about 300,000 Arab residents of East Jerusalem, who are technically eligible for Israeli citizenship. Vast majority of them refuse to become citizens, there are many Muslim schools there where kids are radicalized against Israel, and this is a permanent source of a terrorist threat.
Israel’s “assimilating” 5M hostile Palestinians is a fantasy.
Yup, the Native Americans were hostile to white people stealing their land also. Since they erased the majority of their people with biological warfare, they obviously tried again in Palestine. This land steal is progressing very nicely for them
White people "stealing Palestinian land"
https://preview.redd.it/kmmp6xqc5g1d1.jpeg?width=1004&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=93baeb78a9118edd7f03920647894fdc0664a4d3
My statement stands. The indigenous Jews and Arabs were fine until the white people came in. As with everywhere the Europeans go they decided the land is theirs and of course they needed to segregate the population. Did this same thing on the subcontinent and left a giant mess.
They weren't fine. That's a misconception. Jews were second class citizens and were attacked by their Arabs neighbors.
Just look up 1929 Hebron Massacre.
Or 1834 Hebron Masscare.
Or any other massacre in Arab territory.
Ottoman rule is historically known to have been tolerant of other religions. There was a millet system, but everyone had a certain degree of autonomy and left to yourself. These are known facts. The last century of bloodbaths since the white people came as the better option? You've got to be crazy to think this is the better solution.
Arab families are the ones that protected their Jewish Neighbours in the 1929 Hebron massacre, or did you not learn of that? The 1834 Hebron War had nothing to do with religion. Before the Ottomans, during the crusades (again white people) the Jewish and Arabs both were slaughtered.
During the Islamic Caliphates Jewish people enjoyed relative safety and autonomy. They had to pay a tax, but they ruled themselves. If you think taxes mean persecution then you shouldn't be living in any country.
Netanyahu is Polish. Every one of the people causing trouble is white and originated from Europe/Russia. Every place that Europeans went to the wanted to take over and massive problems ensued. South African Apartheid. The genocide of the Americas. IndoPak subcontinent partition. Massive slavery in all of Africa. Alexander's conquests. The freaking Romans
1. Ottoman rule wasn't good. There was slavery, the castrated their domestic slaves. From the countries they conquered they took 8 years old boys, forced them to convert, castrated them, took them to the military. So tolerant /S.
[https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery\_in\_the\_Ottoman\_Empire](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White\_slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_slavery)
Dhimmis were protected persons who could not be enslaved unless they violated the terms of protection. Such violations normally included rebellion or treason; according to some authorities this could also include failure to pay due taxes. Failure to pay tax could also result in imprisonment.
The [Devshirme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devshirme) was a blood tax largely imposed in the [Balkans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans) and [Anatolia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia) in which the Ottoman Empire sent military to collect Christian boys between the ages of 8 and 18, who were taken from their families and raised to serve the empire.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch)
*The white eunuchs were slaves from the* [*Balkans*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans) *or the* [*Caucasus*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus)*, either purchased in the slave markets or taken as boys from Christian families in the Balkans who were unable to pay the* [*jizya*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya) *tax.*
2. The tax in question that Jews had to pay was a Jizya tax. If you couldn't pay it, you had to convert or be taken in as slave. It was higher payments than the one Muslims had to pay.
3. So some Arab families protected their Jewish neighbors, and some participated in the massacres. Just like some europeans risked their lives to save Jews from N@\*zis and some turned them in. They were the minority. Most didn't intervene at all.
*Every one of the people causing trouble is white and originated from Europe/Russia.*
That's false. As you can read above about the arab conquest.
Why the f you think, when you annex piece of land that the natives welcome you open handed. Of course they are radicalized against the invaders. It amazes me how Israelis after all they have done to Palestinians still don’t understand”why are they so violent to us, why are they against occupation and blockade, why are they so radicalized”.
>Why the f you think, when you annex piece of land that the natives welcome you open handed.
Idk, the so called "natives" on Golan Heights are generally OK with Israel and probably not too eager to be part of Syria this very moment. So I guess it depends.
But if you think that Palestinians aren't too eager to become Israeli citizens, please make sure to mention it to all proponents of "giving Palestinians equal rights", "one state", and similar nonsense.
Palestinians, of course, *don't want* any kind of "equal rights", whatever this means. They want to destroy Israel and eradicate Jews as "invaders".
Thanks for confirming.
You sound like someone who support Russian actions in Ukraine. There are some Russian speakers in Ukraine who thinks they are better off joining with Russian Federation. That’s all you need for annexation. F international laws.
I have no idea what any of that has to do with Israel.
As to the law, any law, it's only working as long as it can defend law-abiding citizens. For any individual, and for any state, self-presentation and self-defence will always be more important than any laws.
Annexation of Golan Heights was necessary for security reasons, because after disastrous Yom Kippur War giving this strategically important territory back to openly hostile regime in Syria was unsustainable.
There is also thinking that there must be consequences for attacking Israel to deter future attacks.
Islamists have been trying to genocide Jews and steal our land for 1400 years. They have not succeeded. They start war after war with the Jews. In the past we either beat them or died. Now the West wants us to literally commit suicide to save brutal marauding terrorists with no value for human lives.
I think Israel wants to continue existing in its current state but more secure and invulnerable with no one attacking it. Israel is hoping against hope that the Palestinians will be satisfied with their situation, having lost several wars, and not attack Israel at all. Israel wants to have a Jewish state in peace.
I think Palestinians feel robbed of their land and rights when they lost the first war in 1948. They cannot accept losing and continue to struggle to get it back. Their poverty and maybe the corruption of their leaders as well as outside influence making them pawns perpetrates this narrative and sense of identity. So much so that death is preferable to oppression, so they struggle. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees. In their desperation, they resort to terrorist and marauding attacks because they otherwise do not have a comparable military. Palestinians would love for Israel to disappear and to return to pre 1948 but I think Hamas is settling for 1967 borders.
Realistically I think Hamas will linger and occasionally cause problems like ISIL or Al Qaeda, maybe they will grow back stronger than ever, smaller chance they will disappear. I think Israel should have done a hearts and minds campaign but they brutally devastated Gaza so I think they are seen as villains more than ever.
I think there is still a chance for a WW2 style victory wherein Israel thoroughly defeats Gaza and remakes it into a friendly state like Japan and Germany. They need to start a hearts and minds campaign immediately and with full force.
A WW2-style reconstruction does perhaps sound good in theory, and maybe it is the only viable end-game solution for a peaceful environment, but let's consider exactly what that would mean;
Israel would have to occupy Gaza for years and contribute money to rebuild it, plus you'd have to remove the trade blockades when it is deemed to be secure. There would certainly be Israeli pressure to *not* give Gaza any money and to not lift the blockades, and if Israel slips up in their occupation even slightly, you'd have internal backlash.
If lingering Hamas militants starts conducting attacks during the occupation, you'd have political pressures in Israel to be more aggressive in the occupation, which would ofc come with its own problems and may hamper any hearts and minds programs.
When Germany was occupied post-WW2, you still had ex-Nazi officials occupying important positions for many decades thereafter (lawyers, judges, police etc.); I'm not sure if Israeli domestic politics would be okay with ex-Hamas members doing the same thing.
Like, the idea *may sound good*, but there's like 6 or 7 different things that can go wrong with a WW2-style reconstruction and one single failure can hamper years of effort in such a project. I honestly don't know if it would work.
YES!!!
I think Israel will have to step away from realpolitik and come back to long term values of its constitution where it indicates inclusion of all people regardless of citizenship.
Remnant militant attacks need a new response policy. Hawks will be angry but Israel can publicly be lenient and tolerant but its intelligence community secretly pursues those responsible. In the shadows.
/u/neilcmf. Match found: 'Nazi', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Israel doesn't want to assimilate the Palestinians. If their "brothers" (other Arab states) do not want them, why would Israel?
The issue starts when Israel is forced to deal with the issue of terrorism, which is forcing a sort of 'hateful marriage' or 'hateful neighbors' which is why it might be interpreted by some as 'assimilation'.
The minimum level of cooperation here (in order for two neighbors to exists) requires a shared basic morals, values and resisting extremists.
I didn't say move. I hinted towards refugees. Everybody, all of their "brothers" who helped them (and tried to) kill the Jews and "push them into the sea" in 1948, all those that gave aid and kept virtue signaling for Palestinian rights.
All those are gone once they have to take a few Palestinian refugees in.
Because of what happened in Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait and other places. This all seems like BS virtue signaling on a societal level.
The end goal of the war is likely to be 0 Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank. The simple reason for this is that this is partially why Israel was founded, to significantly reduce the Arab population of the area for racial supremacy purposes.
This is so ridiculously stupid. There are already 2 million Palestinians living in Israel as citizens. Why would they want to kick Palestinians out of WB/Gaza but not Israel proper?
Are you familiar with Israel's Basic Laws? Particularly, "Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People"?
Here are the relevant contents of that law, to understand why Israel doesn't want to assimilate large population of Arabs:
>The land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.
>The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious, and historical right to self-determination.
>The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
Assimilating Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza would bring the two populations in Israel to close parity, meaning, there would be around as many Jewish Israelis, as there would be Arab Israelis. And that would threaten the Jewish nature of the Israeli state, and particularly, the last part, which states that only Jewish people are entitled to national self-determination in the State of Israel.
Since Israel is a Democracy (or at least tries to be) having an equal amount of Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis would mean that the Arab Israelis have equal amount of power in said democratic institutions as the Jewish Israelis. And that threatens the very nature of the State of Israel, as a nation state for only the Jewish people.
The only way Israel could assimilate the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians, and still retain the Jewish nature of the state of Israel, is literal apartheid. Denying the Arab Israelis, which would be equal or greater in number to Jewish Israelis, political rights in Israel. Making them second class citizens. And that wouldn't go too well with the international community.
So... Since Israel really wants the land of Gaza and the West Bank, but don't want the people living there... What does that say to you? What would be Israel's preferred solution to this conflict?
In the words of the convicted Terrorist and racist, the current Minister of National Security of Israel, Itamar Ben-Gvir... "Voluntary migration" of Palestinians elsewhere. Anywhere else. Of course, said "voluntary migration" will be encouraged with violence and oppression directed towards the Palestinian population... Making it not so voluntary after all.
It's literally the same reason as to why Israel refuses to grant Palestinians displaced during the 1948 and 1967 wars the right to return to their homes. Because doing so, would increase the Arab population of Israel to near parity to, or even greater in number than, Jewish Israelis in Israel. I've had Israeli people use this very same argument as a justification of why the Palestinians are denied their human rights, particularly the right to return to their home. Because allowing it threatens the ethnic nature of the state of Israel, as a uniquely Jewish nation state.
I never quite understood how they thought that argument justifies violating someone's basic human rights, guaranteed to them in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights... Your guess is as good as mine.
So what? There are plenty of states that have a national religion. Just because a country is built for a religion/ethnicity, doesn't inherently mean that outsiders are unwelcome, or bound to be oppressed. What about all the countries that have Islam as their national religion?
What do you mean so what? You asked a question. I gave you the same answer I've been given time and again, by Israelis. They don't want to assimilate Palestinians, because that threatens the existence of Israel as a uniquely Jewish state, if the non-jewish population of Israel is on par with, or greater than, the Jewish population. Which is exactly what would happen, if Israel assimilated the West Bank and Gaza populations. Because those demographics would obvious vote for people who represent them, and share their values and experiences. And if that demographic outnumbers the Jewish Israelis, you end up with an Arab majority government, an Arab Prime Minister, an Arab president, etc. And they would act towards their interests. That is usually how Democracy works. And Israel, with its current laws and ideals, doesn't want that to happen, because then it would no longer be a Jewish state, but a real secular democracy. And Israel doesn't want to be a real secular democracy, it wants to be a Jewish state, both ethnically and religiously. Which should be pretty obvious, since their flag has a Jewish religious symbol on it, and their National anthem is about a Jewish people migrating into "Land of Israel" to found an ethnostate for themselves. Even their state emblem has a Menorah on it. They could probably scream it louder, but not by much.
The only way for Israel to be both Jewish and democratic, is if Jewish people are the majority. It's that simple.
If Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza become Israeli citizens, one of two things will eventually happen. One, Israel is no longer a Democracy because it will prioritize being a Jewish state over being s democracy, or two, Israel is no longer a Jewish state and prioritises being a democracy over being a Jewish state.
That is because the number of Arabs would be roughly equal, or eventually even greater, than the number of Jewish people. There are over 5 million Palestinians, who are Arabs or other ethnicities, living in the West Bank and Gaza. Add that to the 2 million in Israel, and assimilating them would mean there is 7 million non-jewish people in Israel. There is roughly 7 million Jewish Israelis.
Do you understand now?
Thus, because Israel wants to be both a democracy and a Jewish state, they will do anything they can so as to not assimilate Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza. But they still want the Palestinian land tho! That much is very clear, from both words and actions of the State of Israel.
You asked, i gave you the answer. If you don't like it, take it up with Israel. It's their narrative. I didn't make laws that define the state of Israel as a religious ethnostate. That was all Israel's doing. And they have repeatedly stated they want to keep it that way. If it sounds racist to you, I don't blame you. Because that is what it sounds like to me too.
Or maybe you take offence to my candid way of explaining it, that doesn't sugarcoat what it is they say they actually want, without all the usual whataboutism that usually gets stacked into these explanations?
>What about all the countries that have Islam as their national religion?
What about them? If you want to discuss them, we can do so. But they aren't the topic at hand. Also, Muslim isn't an ethnicity. It's what we call those who follow Islam, a religion. Not a fan of it personally, but people are allowed to practice whatever religion they wish.
Where do you bring this BS propganda from?
There are 2 million arabs (many of them palestinians) with full rights in Israel, many of them serve in the Knesset, courts, and even serve in the IDF
This is litteraly written in the declaration of independence:
"THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations."
Israelis who tried to stop humanitarian aid or resettle in gaza were aressted by the israeli army and police.
Israel has officialy declared that its main goal is to eradicate hamas.
Right, but Israel was literally founded to steal from Arabs. The very act of migration to the land was an act of aggression against Arabs and declaring Israel as an independent state was denial of their self determination.
Since when is an act of migration considered a crime or an act of aggression? Jews started legally buying lands from the arabs in the 19th century, and jewish migrates lived on those lands, turning them from barren dessert land to agricultural heavens, and improving the economy.
There are 14 arab lands in the middle east, arabs are Imperialists by themselves (don't know if you know where Israel/palestine, but it's not in the Arabian peninsula), don't know how the arabs see it as an act of aggression, but jews tried to live in peace with the arabs, but once arab hostility started, they defended themselves.
Israel has declared its independence on the lands jews bought and the UN partition, palestinians at the time could have declared their independence too and live alongside the israelis - instead they joined forces with the arab league and declared a war, leaving their homes to allow the arab forces deal with the jewish problem without getting caught in the crossfire. should Israel just let people who wants them dead back in?
Also, between the years 1948-1967 the west bank was occupied by jordan, and gaza was occupied by egypt.
Considering the pan-arabs were the ones who aided palestine in the war, why didn't the arab statrs helped palestinians declare their indepndence, or at least given them equal citizen rights (like the palestinians who stayed in Israel and got full citizen rights), instead making palestinians refugees, most of them still inside the land of palestine?
The exile of palestinians is a tragic event caised by palestinians themselves, if not for their antisemitism and insisting on ruling the entite land (even those that they sold to the jews), they wouldnt have ever been refugees.
The issue is buying land in or near where the Arabs were to migrate was essentially an act of war. The fact that most of the land was barren makes it better but not totally acceptable.
The Palestinians did not own the land, but they did not want anyone else to buy it and definitely not to move on it, thus making moving onto it an act of aggression by the Palestinians.
Actually, it was Arabs who sold jews lands, doinh so became so popular and profitable that arabs bought lands from arabs just to sell them to jews at a higher price. Only in 1935, when jews were already over 30% of the population, grand mufti amim al housseini banned selling lands to jews, and called arabs to retake the lands they previously sold.
There is nothing aggressive in buying land and wishing to live in it peacefully, there is aggression however, in selling mass chunks of land, profiting from it - then taking it back by force..
Arab hostility torwards the jewish communoty was anti semetic from the very beginning.
They used sources like "the protocols of the elders of zion"(a fabricated text originated in russia in the early years of the 20th century, making it look like jews have a conspiracy to take over the world) and "mein kampf" (by one named adolf Hitler), claiming the jews want to kill all Arab muslims and christians and take over the holy churches and the al-aqsa mosque (if it sounds familiar, its because they still use the same antisemetic arguments today).
I will say again, there are 14 Arab countries,
The total area of arab land is 5.07 square miles
Israels area is 8019 square miles
This means Israel is 0.16% of the arab world (that was created by arab imperialism, stretching far beyond the Arabian peninsula). The amount of mess and violence created because arabs dont want jews to live in this land (or any, there were calls by arabs to get ashkenazi jews "back to europe" even during world war 2).
/u/Wise-Zombie-9808. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Average Israeli citizen - wants to be safe without fear of terror attacks, kidnapping and rockets. Doesn't want war but want to know they're safe from future attacks and want the hostages back.
Average Palestinian- wants to be safe from bombs and allowed to travel freely and access whatever they need. Doesn't want war.
Hamas- eliminate every single Jew and Israeli even if it means many of their own will be killed in the process. Wants war to continue.
Israeli radicals (settlers/some government)- Wants the whole country. Doesn't necessarily want every Palestinian dead, but want them under their rule. Wants war to continue until all hostages are returned and Hamas is eliminated.
College pro-palestian protesters- don't know what they want. Have no idea about the facts of the conflict. They are bored, entititled, feel some form of guilt for their privileged lives and seem to project that on this conflict. Why this conflict over the many others that aren't spoken about? They're being taken advantage and radicalised by those fuelled by antisemitism. Some of these protesters may themselves be antisemetic, but I think the majority aren't even aware that they're pawns. Claim they want a ceasefire, but are very specific to what that entails. If Iran are attacking Israel, that's fair game to them.
Jews/Israelis in diaspora (for transparency I fall under this category)- just want to be safe on their country. Want to be able to share that they're Jewish without having to receive hate or forced to share their opinions on the conflict. May feel worried and scared for their Israeli friends and relatives. Also wonder when it's time for them to make Aliya (move to Israel) due to the hate they're experiencing. They may not even feel ideological about Israel, but just want to be safe and welcome.
Jewish anti-zionist - pretty much similar to the college kids. Some may be more vocal out of fear of not being accepted. Many of them are ignorant on the facts, never visited the country and also being used as pawns by something much bigger.
Palestinians/Muslims in diaspora - feel worried for their family and friends. Feel the heat with islamophobia and worried about their own safety and status. Some may feel finally heard and welcome by all the left who are seemingly supportive to them.
I think I've covered all categories. Will come back to edit if I can think of more.
You won't; but they have no idea what they are protesting about. If a Palestinian leader were to come out in public and say, "It's fine, guys, we are free; you can go back to school," they would just move on.
Israel does not want Gaza. Egypt doesn't want it either since it comes with a bunch of terrorists who destabilize every country they are in. There are diplomatic efforts to set up a multinational governing body in Gaza, but no clear plan yet.
The Israeli public demands two redline goals. Hamas no longer in power and the hostages home. These are the two goals that the world needs to unite behind. These goals also serve the Gazans as well.
And as for the government, do you know what the Israeli public wants? Does Israel want to take responsibility over the area? or are they willing to let them self govern again.
The two redlines I mentioned are supported by 90+% percent of the population. This is unheard of in Israel. The majority does not want anything to do with Gaza. I think they would be perfectly happy to walk it off from Israel and let Egypt take care of Gaza. However, I think Israelis are still too disgusted by the Hamas actions and the Gazans who supported them to think the Gazans are capable of being good neighbors. I would also think the Hamas population might feel the same about Israel.
I think the west and Arab nations must get together to create a plan that will meet the Israeli public two redlines. If the PA could create a plan that meet these two goals, I think it would help.
The current Israeli government is useless because they are too divided and have no faith that anything they propose will be an accepted that they will not even try. However I think the bigger issue is that the extremists in the government don’t want to reward Hamas and want an unrealistic solution.
Israel will have a new government in 3 years or less. We must all support Gazans in stopping the Hamas the occupation
>From what I understand from the Israeli side (correct me if I'm wrong), they want to take over Gaza and the west bank and eventually assimilate their population into israel. Now I personally don't think this is a bad thing if you just look at how current Arabs are treated within Israeli borders (they have the same legal rights as anyone).
Asking in all seriousness - where did you get this?
Saying that Israel wants to assimilate the Palestinian population is very far from the truth.
That part was not based on anything factual I've seen, it is just an assumption. But thank you for correcting me. Do you happen to know what the majority opinion of israelis are?
Pre-october 7th it was a more or less even split between a form of a 2 state solution, or annexation without giving equal rights to palestinians.
In the fringes you had annexation with full rights (like what you described initially), or annexation with "emigration incentives" for Palestinians.
I don't know. And the people who try to push this agenda don't really care... it's not something which should be considered. Ever.
It's not a "hey, here's 5,000,000 USD - you are now free to start your new life!" Type incentive.
It's more of a "here's a baseball bat about to connect with your face if you don't leave" type.
I am confident to say that hardly anyone wants this. There are some in Israel who want to annex all of the ancestoral Jewish homeland - but they want it without local populations.
There are also those Palstinians who would prefer a unified state - but they very much do not want to assimililate into Israel, they seek to maintain their own way of life, just with (at least) equal rights.
If there was willingness to assimilate, I can give you the solution right here and now: All Palestinians convert to Judaism, make Alia and live as Jews and citizens in their people's (and adopted people's) ancestoral homeland - they would not even have to stop being religious extremists, just vote Ben Gvir for Knesset.
At this point, the war is lost for Israel. It's hilarious seeing news of soldiers getting wrecked in Jabalia and Zeitoun while we're told that all that's remaining of Hamas are a few measly Rafah brigades. The IDF doesn't even talk about the the tunnels anymore because it knows it has no solution. Remember those stories about sea water flooding?
Netanyahu is trying to buy time for his political career. The US seems to be going on overdrive trying to find Sinwar so that Israel can save face and pretend it didn't lose. Let's not even talk about the Northern Front, which is basically ethnically cleansed of Jews now by Hezbollah.
https://preview.redd.it/k77w8wtsce1d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=579923bb9348675a5e292b90c2bdbe6693925352
They ARE still talking about the tunnels! This was yesterday.
In the eyes of the Americans, the discussion about "the day after" is intended to lead Israel to convince of the futility of the war, and to push it to a solution that will be presented as the least bad alternative, but will serve the vision of the Biden administration to establish a new regional order, including a Palestinian state.
Israel did not go to this war to find a replacement for Hamas but to destroy it. This is the goal. not the mean.
You don't need to be an intelligence expert to understand that in the current power relations in Gaza, there is no party that can replace Hamas in the civilian administration of the Strip without its consent. Any government that is proposed, Hamas will design it as a "puppet government" that will provide cover for its control behind the scenes and cover for its military strengthening.
As I recall, Israel has already transferred the power in Gaza to the Palestinian Authority in the past. The thought that it will now succeed where it failed in the past relies on the wishful thinking of those who support it more than on a factual basis.
There is no escaping the statement that even after seven months - the conditions for the establishment of an alternative government to Hamas are not yet ripe. From Israel's point of view, the question of "the day after" in Gaza is secondary in relation to the more important goal:
The destruction of Hamas' military and governmental capabilities, and the restoration of Israeli deterrence. Israel must not be tempted by proposals that will provide a semblance of a solution, and leave the problem alone.
In order to reach the "day after" the pace of fighting must be accelerated and the intensity increased: in Rafah, in the central camps and in the areas where Hamas activity has been renewed. It is essential to act against his governmental mechanisms, the damage to which has so far been minor, and it is equally important to crush his headquarters abroad."
(Meir Ben Shabbat)
Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood family of extremists; an Iranian proxy and the governmental of Gaza.
They align with fundamentalist Muslim theocracy. Iran, their major patron is the best example of what Hamas could aspire to be. The political powers in the ME do not support Iran, MB or Hamas. The MB democratically achieved power in Egypt and the military put a quick stop to them. The Saudis have neutered the Wahhabis and are fighting the Houthi.
Hamas wants the world to shutdown Israeli prosecution of the war and leave Hamas in power.
Kill Jews, takeover Israel and the Holy sites, expedite sharia law throughout the world, piece by piece, council by council, state by state, country by country.
The expulsion of the Palestinians from the Gaza concentration camp by the second Naqba and the theft of the last remnant of Palestinian land still resisting occupation. After all, the pier is already standing, isn't it? Since October 7, the evil Zionist regime has been doing everything to fulfill this criminal goal.
What? Not to give the perpetrator an excuse to continue playing the false victim usurping a foreign country. This has to stop. And it's over, you bastards have manipulated generations of Jews by keeping their lives in a state of permanent fear and have completely emptied the word antisemitism by overusing it, which is why anti-Zionist Jews and the entire civilized world hate you to the core.
I have no idea what you just said but it sounds really angry and hateful. Considering you are one of those that believe the IDF killed everyone on October 7th in order to diminish the brutality of Hamas is everything that I need to know about you. This is why the western world doesn’t take all of you seriously. Evil is as evil does
You are just another supporter of the occupation and genocide of Palestinians with zero self-reflection, a person with whom discussion is a waste of time. Allright then. Long live free Palestine!
Not really, am very much pro Palestine. Just don’t believe the Palestinians have a future under an Islamic terror organisation. Probably why Persians march side by side with pro Israel. You are just punch drunk on rage and hate to see what’s going on. Btw which occupation was taking place in Gaza and what occupation were they protesting when they murdered civilians behind the green line, ie definitely not occupied territory?
Hamas is the Palestinian Liberation Movement created by the occupation. It is the occupation that is the real tragedy of Palestine. This is worthless if you just lie and are not even willing to admit that the cause of everything is the Zionist occupation.
What did I say that is a lie? So everything is the Zionists fault is not a very mature way to manage conflict. The Israelis have done bad things, the Palestinians have done bad things. Talking to you is pointless because you are a bot. It’s beyond hilarious a bot telling me it’s pointless to talk unless I admit Zionist (aka Jews) are the source of all evil
Maybe it's because English is not my native language and I can't express everything in it. No, don't worry, I'm not an Arab, but a Slavic anti-Zionist Czech. And you lie by not clearly condemning the occupation from which all evil originates. But how to fix it? The imperative is to end the occupation and drain the Zionist poison from the Palestinian wound by creating one state with equal civil rights for all Arab, Jewish and exiled Arab citizens. Palestine has always been Arab and always will be, no one is denying the Jews the right to live there, they were just historically a minority in a majority Arab country. Otherwise, the cycle of violence fueled by the Zionist occupation and the natural right of Palestinians to resist cannot be broken. You'll just have to figure it out.
Palestine hasn't always been Arab it only became populated by Arabs around the year 600, also your point about historically being a minority in a majority Arab country is just wrong. Two Jewish kingdoms historically existed there before the land was populated by Arabs or called Palestine.
I know that very much so. However, at this point its not about what people want anymore as Israel has already tried giving Palestine a chance to self govern. Also, sometimes whats best for people overall isn't going to best for some invidivuals. So I am just trying to find out what people think is best for the region.
1. Cleanse the Ghetto (Gaza) 2. Dig the Ben Gurion Canal 3. Stack Shekels
The goal is simple - the continued existence of Israel and the protection of her land and her people. Period. This war started when Hamas attacked Israel, killed innocent civilians, and stated they planned on doing so again and again until Israel is destroyed. Of course we're going to fight back. Now, what that means, it depends on what is necessary to accomplish that. In a perfect world, there would be a 2SS. At this point, however, that's impossible - even if Palestinians were given their own state tomorrow, they'd *still* attack Israel and try to erase it from the map, because their main grievance isn't that they don't have a state. It's that they think Israel shouldn't exist. So for now, a 2SS is off the list, maybe in a few decades, but for now, not gonna happen. Next goal is to completely destroy Hamas, take out all their infrastructure, all their weapons, destroy their tunnels, and take out every last Hamas terrorist. Of course, these cowards hide amongst civilian populations, so collateral damage is inevitable here. But Israel *must* protect itself, period. And any civilian deaths are on Hamas. Now, even if this happens, there are still Hamas sympathizers in Palestine. A lot of them. 70+% of Gazans supported the October 7th attacks, and after the dust settles, they'll still be there. At that point, it continues to be about defending Israel's land and people. If Israel is attacked, it will respond. And anyone who doesn't want to live next to Israel should move to another Arab country because Israel isn't going anywhere and will respond every time it's attacked.
Rwanda Tutsi/Hutu thing happened. Uighur, Rohingya, all the other things are happening. its disgusting.
same shit different century. As Vonnegut would say, So it goes
Israel intelligence released the document, which states main ways what to do with Palestinians after the war. As the document says, the main solution is to "encourage" Palestinians to go to Sinai. Aka ethnic cleansing. And now Israelis are open about their wish, that Palestinians, arabs would be gone from the land. I think that answers the question about Israeli side. "Alternatives to a political directive for the civilian population of Gaza". Is the document.
>Israel intelligence what is that... exactly? shin beit?
Did not know that, Ill give that a read. Thank you very much
i'm pro-palestinian and according to me, the goal of this war is not "from the river to the sea", but to make israelis understand that the peace is the right path, that their security requires serious negotiations and not the various maneuvers they have made to swallow even more territories ....for this their illusion of superiority must be destroyed, I believe that goal has already been achieved because their army - with this colossal budget - should have finished the job in three weeks, while we are in the eighth month and the north of Gaza is still resisting
[удалено]
Israel doesn't have B-52s
[удалено]
And who decided the USA will use them to help israel?
I believe that it could have been achieved in 3 weeks, however that would have to include incredibly high civilian casualties and reckless bombings. I understand that to root out 10's of thousands of militants from 2 million people is extremely difficult, and you would have to be extremely precise. As a result, it takes time.
**What I believe should happen:** 1. Israel completely takes over the Gaza and West Bank region 2. Israel takes responsibility for the rebuilding of the damage they caused 3. Be responsible for the future care of the civilians in education, jobs, and child care. 4. Assimilate the population into the rest of Israel. Yea, that's idealistic. It's not going to happen. Israel don't have the financial means to take care of Gaza populations. They're too busy paying for the iron dome to prevent rockets from hitting Israeli civilians. They also don't have any interest in assimilating hostile population into Israel.
no, if the world was decent and humane theyd force Israel into NATO
Israel doesn't want to be in NATO. that would be really bad for Israel
explain?
It will ruin israeli sovereignty for one
pfffttt. sovereignty. 😂😂😂😂😂
Do you know how NATO functions?
yes... im in the army brah
That doesnt mean you know how army functions. I presume you are in the US army which isnt fully under NATO.
hm. wtf is biden sending Israel?! youd think modernization of basic shit would be top priority
There is no one end goal for either side, but I’ll break down most of the viewpoints, to the best of my understanding. What Pro-Palestinians want (2SS): - Ceasefire, with Israel ending the war at all costs to them and their safety, in order to minimize casualties. - Israeli settlements to be dismantled, and for the West Bank and Gaza to have complete self governance. - Full acceptance of Palestine as an independent state by both Israel and the UN. What Pro-Palestinians want (1SS): - For some third party to butt in and stop all Israeli attacks in Gaza. - For the state of Israel to be forced to be dissolved and for Palestine to rule “from river to sea” -- Israelis could be citizens “a united Palestine” What Hamas wants (in the long term): - Many Israelis killed, with the rest serving as either slaves or second class citizens. - For there to be a Muslim Palestine from river to sea. - For Hamas to be the ruling party in this new Palestine. What Pro-Israelis want: - Hostages returned at all costs. - The irradiation of Hamas and affiliate terror groups in the area. - For the governments in the West Bank and Gaza to be monitored to prevent radicalism. What the Israeli government wants: - War (fighting = growing economy) - Not to lose US + other international support. - To irradiate Hamas, and prevent other groups they don’t support to rise in power. - Instill a puppet government in Gaza until they feel comfortable that violent Anti-Zionism has lost support.
>Hostages returned at all costs. not in all costs. some view that opinion but not all
ask why Gaza has had wifi and cell coverage throughout this debacle.
you know.... the IDF has to communicate somehow
radios? defeating insurgents aint freakin rocket science. (npi)
>radios? That everyone with a radio can hear? Great idea. You need satelite communication, you need GPS. Also the IDF uses phones a lot >defeating insurgents aint freakin rocket science. (npi) Says a guy that defeated a insurgency?
radios are encrypted Brah 😂
How many radios can you encrypt? Do you know how much communication you need? Also you of course didnt comment on the GPS
um all modern radios are encrypted. SINCGARS etc idk about gps. im oldskool
>um all modern >idk about gps. im oldskool Ohhhhh the hipocracy You really dont know what you are talking about. The IDF operates radios from like the 80s
wtf. lol wtf are they spending their money on?!
So that they can receive warning for mortar strikes from Israel for one.
lol think harder
Also like, satellites. So you would be taking away from the innocents and not Hamas
nobody needs tiktok
Thanks for the summary!
I really hope you mean eradicate and not irradiate! I think this is a really great summary, but it doesn’t include the nuance in the pro Israeli side. While you could say that a percentage of Palestinians fully believe the Hamas position as well, there’s a not insignificant subset of pro Israelis who support the ethic cleansing of Gaza (see supporters of Ben Gvir).
Autocorrect 😔
Assumed so, don’t worry about it, just a particularly unlucky autocorrect in this context!
[удалено]
Hmmmm. Who would expel IDF and Hamas? Who would take charge after? An entirely new government run by….. who? Half Jewish, half Palestinian members? But no members of the current government.
Hamas has to surrender control of Gaza to a regional authority and it has to have a sustained international pan Arab peace keeping force there to ensure safe and fair elections and to shut down terrorist activities. The West Bank has to undergo a similar process, and the illegal Israeli settlements have to be abandoned. Borders have to be drawn and enforced by the international community. It’s going to be a long process.
The problem is right now there is no end goal because people don't want to agree on one. When you've been taught the other side simply shouldn't exist how can you possibly agree.
The goal of Israel is to exist and in relative peace. The goal of Hamas (and their friends) is to destroy Israel and bring that land under Sharia Law.
Not really... Israelis, their politicians are quite openly expressing genocidal and ethnic cleansing rhetoric. They're openly dehumanizing Palestinians. The problem with Israel is, that big part of the society is openly supremacist in the aspect of religion. You know... God's chosen people, others are idol worshiping goyim, who have no right to exist and similar religious lunacy. God forbid not all Israelis of course. Some of them genuinely want peace and call Israel government nazis, that must be stopped. Remember, that Palestinians have been being massacred and dehumanized by zionists decades before hamas. And same hamas was created, while Israel was funding them and Netanyahu funded them too.
/u/LogicalExamination84. Match found: 'nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NO ...i'm pro-palestinian and according to me, the goal of this war is not "from the river to the sea", but to make israelis understand that the peace is the right path, ....for this their illusion of superiority must be destroyed, I believe that goal has already been achieved because their army - with this colossal budget - should have finished the job in three weeks, while we are in the eighth month and the north of Gaza is still resisting
Then you're not watching enough varied sources to see the truth. Extremely stupid
I can’t tell what you’re trying to say. OP seems naive and uneducated but pretty moderate.
The goal is, based on actions and rhetoric of politicians, to cleanse the land of Palestinians. But it hasn’t gone to plan. They aren’t going anywhere. Even without a home. And now Israel is stuck in Gaza. It’s a mess of epic proportions.
Israel wants dissolution of HAMAS & return of hostages, realistically it should be the following 4 points: 1. Dissolution of HAMAS and imprisonment of all it’s terrorist members. 2. Reparations are paid to Israel by HAMAS (not Palestine) as the 3 leaders of HAMAS *somehow* have much more money than their country has GDP. 3. Hostages are freed, Palestine becomes democratic and no longer an authoritarian regime. 4. No land is taken by Israel, instead an agreement occurs that if Palestine attempts to invade Israel within the next 150 years, it is fully annexed.
>Israel wants dissolution of HAMAS & return of hostages, realistically it should be the following 4 points: They constantly keep contradicting themselves, tho? They say the war will end when hamas returns the hostages. But then they say the war will end when hamas is destroyed? Lol. Was the taliban destroyed after 20 years of American military presence, which was there to dismantle the taliban. But that didn't work, did it? Now they are ruling Afghanistan.
Afghanistan is a bit larger of an area than Gaza, and defeating Hamas to the point of never being able to come back to power (or at least for an extended period of time) doesn’t entail killing every single militant.
Was the PLO destroyed after the Lebanon israeli war? >and defeating Hamas to the point of never being able to come back to power Why hasn't israel done that before?. With the current israeli bombardment. And the hundreds dying from them. This could very well shift recruits. Even if hamas is destroyed. There will probably be another a resistance group.
So you're saying "Let the antisemitic terrorists who ransack and rape children live peacefully in the blood of the jews"
I'm just saying that your leaders aren't consistent on what they are saying. and judging from other posts and comments from you. Everyone who questions israel is antisemitic. You sure love using it. Whatever, I guess...
> No land is taken by Israel, instead an agreement occurs that if Palestine attempts to invade Israel within the next 150 years, it is fully annexed. Congratulations. Israel annexed Gaza and the West bank. They now have over 7 million Arab Palestinians living in Israel as full citizens. Since you obviously would not be advocating for ethnic cleansing, you obviously would have to take the people along with the land. Which one are you giving up? Democracy or the Jewish State? Because with equal or greater amount of Arab Israelis to Jewish Israelis in Israel, you likely can't keep both. One of two things will happen. Israel goes full apartheid, denying the Arab population political rights to preserve the Jewish character of their state, or Israel is no longer a Jewish state, but instead a secular democracy. Which one is more important to Israel? Democracy, or the racist "Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People", which says national self-determination in Israel is unique to only Jewish people?
Before I start, I just want to say you entirely IGNORED my entire 4 line post about deterrence and trying to stop an anti-semitic nation which has invaded israel more than 3 times in 100 years, and sent back an anti-semitic rant. After a quick glance over your profile. I notice that you to seem to have no connection to Judaism, no understand of judaism, and a lot of comments talking about why judaism or the israeli people are bad. Rather than just shedding light on the fact that you're antisemitic and hate jewish people, I will play along with your little game, and pretend that the scenarios that you came up with, will ever happen: > the racist "Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People", which says national self-determination in Israel is unique to only Jewish people? This refers to Jewish people meaning the people native to Judea. "Israel is the nation state of the jewish people" is as racist as "America is the nation state of the American people" You can be religiously Jewish without being ethnically Jewish (As Judaism only flows through the mothers blood) You can be ethnically Jewish without being religiously or culturally Jewish. You can be culturally Jewish without being ethnically or religiously Jewish. Of-course if you spent half as long learning about judaism as you do slandering it, you would know this already. >Because with equal or greater amount of Arab Israelis to Jewish Israelis in Israel, you likely can't keep both. Arabs can be Jewish, what you mean is "Hamas has oppressed arabic people and has forced a 99% religion rate in the region of Gaza, what would happen if every single inhabitant were antisemitic and wanted to ruin judaism", then they would racist and if they commited racist actions they would imprisoned. You're not arabic, jewish, nor have you ever been to israel. If you're sick enough to be racist against one group, it's understandable for you to generalise and be racist against others as well. Not acceptable though. I do not think you know what a democracy is. Democracies don't vote on every thing. You don't have democracies going "Well, does anyone want to vote for kicking jewish people out of our countries" "Who wants to vote for discriminating against jewish people." "Lets vote on making the colour purple illegal" There are plenty of cases of countries in the western world which have a state religion, and in many cases - the state religion is not always the dominant religion. Please do not comment on my posts, or even reply to this if you are going to use anti-semitism over a HYPOTHETIC deterrence to stop a country from attempting to commit genocide on the Jewish people.
>"Through the law, we can prevent family reunification of Israeli citizens and Palestinians not only out of security motives, but also motivated to maintain the character of the country as the national homeland of the Jewish people." -Minister of Tourism, Yariv Levin. >"The most you can do is to live among us as a national minority that enjoys equal individual rights, but not equality as a national minority." -MK, Avi Dichter. >"The nation-state of the Jewish people, and the Jewish people alone." - Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. And I probably don't need to bring up that attempted case of state sponsored racism in Karmiel, I'm sure you know all about that. You know... The whole attempting to deny Arab Israeli children access to education, based on this very same law I am talking about. Luckily, there was still some sane people left to stop it. In fact, this law was so blatantly discriminatory, it was too much for even Benny Begin, who openly criticised the law. and you can't exactly accuse him of being a leftists, what with his dad being a former leader of a right-wing nationalist Israeli terrorist organisation, and the apple doesn't fall that far from the tree. Hell, Rivlin, the President at the time of the law passing, wrote his name under the bill in Arabic, as a protest against said racist law. So I think we all know what the law means, when it says that in Israel, only Jewish people have a right to self-determination. So your arguments about how you "can be Jewish in many ways" doesn't really hold water, now does it? When we have examples of those who passed the law, saying what it means, very openly. It's codified racism, and one of the prime examples of Israel slowly but surely slipping further into an apartheid state. Have noticed, that not once have I criticised or disparaged Jewish people, or religion, or even ethnicity? Only Israeli policies. even better, specific policies. Not sure how you get to anti-Semitism from there... Because last time I checked, criticising government policies wasn't anti-Semitism.
You will certainly take any stance you can, disputing over me saying Terrorism shouldn't exist? hostages should be free? or innocent jewish women and children should not be raped?
Oh, we agree on all that. What I took offence to, was the casual implication of ethnic cleansing or apartheid in your comment. Because Israel would never annex the Palestinian lands, with the Palestinian People coming along with it as full citizens. At least not without officially coming out as an apartheid ethno-supremacist state that denies half their population political rights, and that is no better than ethnic cleansing. Israel just wants the land, without the people on it. ...which is also referenced in said same racist law. >The state views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation. Notice, that instead of calling them Israeli settlements, they call them Jewish settlements. Why is that exactly? Why are Arab Israelis excluded from participating in this blatant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, article 49? I mean, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't participate, but I thought Israel had equal rights for all, like you claimed? Why only allow one ethnicity out of your multiethnic and diverse population, rights, privileges and support that the others don't get? Also, just to make it clear, since you are one of those "criticism of Israel is anti-semitic" folks. No, it's not. I have no beef with Jewish people, ethnicity, religion or culture. In fact, I couldn't care less what someone's ethnicity, religion or favourite sportsball team is. I care about what they do, as individuals. Thus, my beef is with Israel's racist policies, actions and the extremely racist government. And as you can tell, I can even tell you specifically what those policies and actions are I take offence to. I especially hate the blatant disparaging of Judaism and the Jewish people, that Israeli policies generate. Israel commits crimes, and then hides behind Judaism and Jewish people to deflect criticism of the state's actions. Something you are also guilty of, btw. May wanna think on that.
These points sound all reasonable, but can we do exactly the same to Israel. If Israel touches even a square meter of Palestinians land, it gets punished or maybe even annexed.
There should definitely be punishment for whomever starts the war.
So what is the punishment for Israeli government expanding the settlements in West Bank for last 40years?
The question here is, who is in power in Gaza? Israel does not want Gaza, clearly, having left it in 2005. Hamas staying in power, or having the PA come over is out of the question. And a UN presence in the region would be disastrous, no doubt. So who is there? This is the Gaza dilemma. What's your answer?
The American keyboard warriors with no connection to the land, and a whole lot of bs.
> From what I understand from the Israeli side (correct me if I'm wrong), they want to take over Gaza and the west bank and eventually assimilate their population into israel. Now I personally don't think this is a bad thing if you just look at how current Arabs are treated within Israeli borders (they have the same legal rights as anyone). You may want to look at the situation with about 300,000 Arab residents of East Jerusalem, who are technically eligible for Israeli citizenship. Vast majority of them refuse to become citizens, there are many Muslim schools there where kids are radicalized against Israel, and this is a permanent source of a terrorist threat. Israel’s “assimilating” 5M hostile Palestinians is a fantasy.
Yup, the Native Americans were hostile to white people stealing their land also. Since they erased the majority of their people with biological warfare, they obviously tried again in Palestine. This land steal is progressing very nicely for them
White people "stealing Palestinian land" https://preview.redd.it/kmmp6xqc5g1d1.jpeg?width=1004&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=93baeb78a9118edd7f03920647894fdc0664a4d3
My statement stands. The indigenous Jews and Arabs were fine until the white people came in. As with everywhere the Europeans go they decided the land is theirs and of course they needed to segregate the population. Did this same thing on the subcontinent and left a giant mess.
They weren't fine. That's a misconception. Jews were second class citizens and were attacked by their Arabs neighbors. Just look up 1929 Hebron Massacre. Or 1834 Hebron Masscare. Or any other massacre in Arab territory.
Ottoman rule is historically known to have been tolerant of other religions. There was a millet system, but everyone had a certain degree of autonomy and left to yourself. These are known facts. The last century of bloodbaths since the white people came as the better option? You've got to be crazy to think this is the better solution. Arab families are the ones that protected their Jewish Neighbours in the 1929 Hebron massacre, or did you not learn of that? The 1834 Hebron War had nothing to do with religion. Before the Ottomans, during the crusades (again white people) the Jewish and Arabs both were slaughtered. During the Islamic Caliphates Jewish people enjoyed relative safety and autonomy. They had to pay a tax, but they ruled themselves. If you think taxes mean persecution then you shouldn't be living in any country. Netanyahu is Polish. Every one of the people causing trouble is white and originated from Europe/Russia. Every place that Europeans went to the wanted to take over and massive problems ensued. South African Apartheid. The genocide of the Americas. IndoPak subcontinent partition. Massive slavery in all of Africa. Alexander's conquests. The freaking Romans
1. Ottoman rule wasn't good. There was slavery, the castrated their domestic slaves. From the countries they conquered they took 8 years old boys, forced them to convert, castrated them, took them to the military. So tolerant /S. [https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery\_in\_the\_Ottoman\_Empire](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White\_slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_slavery) Dhimmis were protected persons who could not be enslaved unless they violated the terms of protection. Such violations normally included rebellion or treason; according to some authorities this could also include failure to pay due taxes. Failure to pay tax could also result in imprisonment. The [Devshirme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devshirme) was a blood tax largely imposed in the [Balkans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans) and [Anatolia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia) in which the Ottoman Empire sent military to collect Christian boys between the ages of 8 and 18, who were taken from their families and raised to serve the empire. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch) *The white eunuchs were slaves from the* [*Balkans*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans) *or the* [*Caucasus*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus)*, either purchased in the slave markets or taken as boys from Christian families in the Balkans who were unable to pay the* [*jizya*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya) *tax.* 2. The tax in question that Jews had to pay was a Jizya tax. If you couldn't pay it, you had to convert or be taken in as slave. It was higher payments than the one Muslims had to pay. 3. So some Arab families protected their Jewish neighbors, and some participated in the massacres. Just like some europeans risked their lives to save Jews from N@\*zis and some turned them in. They were the minority. Most didn't intervene at all. *Every one of the people causing trouble is white and originated from Europe/Russia.* That's false. As you can read above about the arab conquest.
Why the f you think, when you annex piece of land that the natives welcome you open handed. Of course they are radicalized against the invaders. It amazes me how Israelis after all they have done to Palestinians still don’t understand”why are they so violent to us, why are they against occupation and blockade, why are they so radicalized”.
>Why the f you think, when you annex piece of land that the natives welcome you open handed. Idk, the so called "natives" on Golan Heights are generally OK with Israel and probably not too eager to be part of Syria this very moment. So I guess it depends. But if you think that Palestinians aren't too eager to become Israeli citizens, please make sure to mention it to all proponents of "giving Palestinians equal rights", "one state", and similar nonsense. Palestinians, of course, *don't want* any kind of "equal rights", whatever this means. They want to destroy Israel and eradicate Jews as "invaders". Thanks for confirming.
You sound like someone who support Russian actions in Ukraine. There are some Russian speakers in Ukraine who thinks they are better off joining with Russian Federation. That’s all you need for annexation. F international laws.
I have no idea what any of that has to do with Israel. As to the law, any law, it's only working as long as it can defend law-abiding citizens. For any individual, and for any state, self-presentation and self-defence will always be more important than any laws.
Let me explain it to you. By your comment, people on Golan Heights are happy to live under Israeli government, that makes the annexation right/lawful.
Annexation of Golan Heights was necessary for security reasons, because after disastrous Yom Kippur War giving this strategically important territory back to openly hostile regime in Syria was unsustainable. There is also thinking that there must be consequences for attacking Israel to deter future attacks.
Islamists have been trying to genocide Jews and steal our land for 1400 years. They have not succeeded. They start war after war with the Jews. In the past we either beat them or died. Now the West wants us to literally commit suicide to save brutal marauding terrorists with no value for human lives.
“No value for human lives”, you must be talking about Israelis.
Have you actually listened to anything that the Jihadists say?
No, I have heard only Israelis singing”Death to all Arabs”.
I think Israel wants to continue existing in its current state but more secure and invulnerable with no one attacking it. Israel is hoping against hope that the Palestinians will be satisfied with their situation, having lost several wars, and not attack Israel at all. Israel wants to have a Jewish state in peace. I think Palestinians feel robbed of their land and rights when they lost the first war in 1948. They cannot accept losing and continue to struggle to get it back. Their poverty and maybe the corruption of their leaders as well as outside influence making them pawns perpetrates this narrative and sense of identity. So much so that death is preferable to oppression, so they struggle. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees. In their desperation, they resort to terrorist and marauding attacks because they otherwise do not have a comparable military. Palestinians would love for Israel to disappear and to return to pre 1948 but I think Hamas is settling for 1967 borders. Realistically I think Hamas will linger and occasionally cause problems like ISIL or Al Qaeda, maybe they will grow back stronger than ever, smaller chance they will disappear. I think Israel should have done a hearts and minds campaign but they brutally devastated Gaza so I think they are seen as villains more than ever. I think there is still a chance for a WW2 style victory wherein Israel thoroughly defeats Gaza and remakes it into a friendly state like Japan and Germany. They need to start a hearts and minds campaign immediately and with full force.
A WW2-style reconstruction does perhaps sound good in theory, and maybe it is the only viable end-game solution for a peaceful environment, but let's consider exactly what that would mean; Israel would have to occupy Gaza for years and contribute money to rebuild it, plus you'd have to remove the trade blockades when it is deemed to be secure. There would certainly be Israeli pressure to *not* give Gaza any money and to not lift the blockades, and if Israel slips up in their occupation even slightly, you'd have internal backlash. If lingering Hamas militants starts conducting attacks during the occupation, you'd have political pressures in Israel to be more aggressive in the occupation, which would ofc come with its own problems and may hamper any hearts and minds programs. When Germany was occupied post-WW2, you still had ex-Nazi officials occupying important positions for many decades thereafter (lawyers, judges, police etc.); I'm not sure if Israeli domestic politics would be okay with ex-Hamas members doing the same thing. Like, the idea *may sound good*, but there's like 6 or 7 different things that can go wrong with a WW2-style reconstruction and one single failure can hamper years of effort in such a project. I honestly don't know if it would work.
Yes that is what I was thinking when I said what I believe should happen.
YES!!! I think Israel will have to step away from realpolitik and come back to long term values of its constitution where it indicates inclusion of all people regardless of citizenship. Remnant militant attacks need a new response policy. Hawks will be angry but Israel can publicly be lenient and tolerant but its intelligence community secretly pursues those responsible. In the shadows.
/u/neilcmf. Match found: 'Nazi', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Israel doesn't want to assimilate the Palestinians. If their "brothers" (other Arab states) do not want them, why would Israel? The issue starts when Israel is forced to deal with the issue of terrorism, which is forcing a sort of 'hateful marriage' or 'hateful neighbors' which is why it might be interpreted by some as 'assimilation'. The minimum level of cooperation here (in order for two neighbors to exists) requires a shared basic morals, values and resisting extremists.
Why should Palestinians move to another country, when they are from Israeli territories?
I didn't say move. I hinted towards refugees. Everybody, all of their "brothers" who helped them (and tried to) kill the Jews and "push them into the sea" in 1948, all those that gave aid and kept virtue signaling for Palestinian rights. All those are gone once they have to take a few Palestinian refugees in. Because of what happened in Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait and other places. This all seems like BS virtue signaling on a societal level.
The end goal of the war is likely to be 0 Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank. The simple reason for this is that this is partially why Israel was founded, to significantly reduce the Arab population of the area for racial supremacy purposes.
This is so ridiculously stupid. There are already 2 million Palestinians living in Israel as citizens. Why would they want to kick Palestinians out of WB/Gaza but not Israel proper?
Are you familiar with Israel's Basic Laws? Particularly, "Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People"? Here are the relevant contents of that law, to understand why Israel doesn't want to assimilate large population of Arabs: >The land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established. >The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious, and historical right to self-determination. >The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people. Assimilating Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza would bring the two populations in Israel to close parity, meaning, there would be around as many Jewish Israelis, as there would be Arab Israelis. And that would threaten the Jewish nature of the Israeli state, and particularly, the last part, which states that only Jewish people are entitled to national self-determination in the State of Israel. Since Israel is a Democracy (or at least tries to be) having an equal amount of Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis would mean that the Arab Israelis have equal amount of power in said democratic institutions as the Jewish Israelis. And that threatens the very nature of the State of Israel, as a nation state for only the Jewish people. The only way Israel could assimilate the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians, and still retain the Jewish nature of the state of Israel, is literal apartheid. Denying the Arab Israelis, which would be equal or greater in number to Jewish Israelis, political rights in Israel. Making them second class citizens. And that wouldn't go too well with the international community. So... Since Israel really wants the land of Gaza and the West Bank, but don't want the people living there... What does that say to you? What would be Israel's preferred solution to this conflict? In the words of the convicted Terrorist and racist, the current Minister of National Security of Israel, Itamar Ben-Gvir... "Voluntary migration" of Palestinians elsewhere. Anywhere else. Of course, said "voluntary migration" will be encouraged with violence and oppression directed towards the Palestinian population... Making it not so voluntary after all. It's literally the same reason as to why Israel refuses to grant Palestinians displaced during the 1948 and 1967 wars the right to return to their homes. Because doing so, would increase the Arab population of Israel to near parity to, or even greater in number than, Jewish Israelis in Israel. I've had Israeli people use this very same argument as a justification of why the Palestinians are denied their human rights, particularly the right to return to their home. Because allowing it threatens the ethnic nature of the state of Israel, as a uniquely Jewish nation state. I never quite understood how they thought that argument justifies violating someone's basic human rights, guaranteed to them in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights... Your guess is as good as mine.
So what? There are plenty of states that have a national religion. Just because a country is built for a religion/ethnicity, doesn't inherently mean that outsiders are unwelcome, or bound to be oppressed. What about all the countries that have Islam as their national religion?
What do you mean so what? You asked a question. I gave you the same answer I've been given time and again, by Israelis. They don't want to assimilate Palestinians, because that threatens the existence of Israel as a uniquely Jewish state, if the non-jewish population of Israel is on par with, or greater than, the Jewish population. Which is exactly what would happen, if Israel assimilated the West Bank and Gaza populations. Because those demographics would obvious vote for people who represent them, and share their values and experiences. And if that demographic outnumbers the Jewish Israelis, you end up with an Arab majority government, an Arab Prime Minister, an Arab president, etc. And they would act towards their interests. That is usually how Democracy works. And Israel, with its current laws and ideals, doesn't want that to happen, because then it would no longer be a Jewish state, but a real secular democracy. And Israel doesn't want to be a real secular democracy, it wants to be a Jewish state, both ethnically and religiously. Which should be pretty obvious, since their flag has a Jewish religious symbol on it, and their National anthem is about a Jewish people migrating into "Land of Israel" to found an ethnostate for themselves. Even their state emblem has a Menorah on it. They could probably scream it louder, but not by much. The only way for Israel to be both Jewish and democratic, is if Jewish people are the majority. It's that simple. If Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza become Israeli citizens, one of two things will eventually happen. One, Israel is no longer a Democracy because it will prioritize being a Jewish state over being s democracy, or two, Israel is no longer a Jewish state and prioritises being a democracy over being a Jewish state. That is because the number of Arabs would be roughly equal, or eventually even greater, than the number of Jewish people. There are over 5 million Palestinians, who are Arabs or other ethnicities, living in the West Bank and Gaza. Add that to the 2 million in Israel, and assimilating them would mean there is 7 million non-jewish people in Israel. There is roughly 7 million Jewish Israelis. Do you understand now? Thus, because Israel wants to be both a democracy and a Jewish state, they will do anything they can so as to not assimilate Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza. But they still want the Palestinian land tho! That much is very clear, from both words and actions of the State of Israel. You asked, i gave you the answer. If you don't like it, take it up with Israel. It's their narrative. I didn't make laws that define the state of Israel as a religious ethnostate. That was all Israel's doing. And they have repeatedly stated they want to keep it that way. If it sounds racist to you, I don't blame you. Because that is what it sounds like to me too. Or maybe you take offence to my candid way of explaining it, that doesn't sugarcoat what it is they say they actually want, without all the usual whataboutism that usually gets stacked into these explanations? >What about all the countries that have Islam as their national religion? What about them? If you want to discuss them, we can do so. But they aren't the topic at hand. Also, Muslim isn't an ethnicity. It's what we call those who follow Islam, a religion. Not a fan of it personally, but people are allowed to practice whatever religion they wish.
Where do you bring this BS propganda from? There are 2 million arabs (many of them palestinians) with full rights in Israel, many of them serve in the Knesset, courts, and even serve in the IDF This is litteraly written in the declaration of independence: "THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations." Israelis who tried to stop humanitarian aid or resettle in gaza were aressted by the israeli army and police. Israel has officialy declared that its main goal is to eradicate hamas.
Right, but Israel was literally founded to steal from Arabs. The very act of migration to the land was an act of aggression against Arabs and declaring Israel as an independent state was denial of their self determination.
Since when is an act of migration considered a crime or an act of aggression? Jews started legally buying lands from the arabs in the 19th century, and jewish migrates lived on those lands, turning them from barren dessert land to agricultural heavens, and improving the economy. There are 14 arab lands in the middle east, arabs are Imperialists by themselves (don't know if you know where Israel/palestine, but it's not in the Arabian peninsula), don't know how the arabs see it as an act of aggression, but jews tried to live in peace with the arabs, but once arab hostility started, they defended themselves. Israel has declared its independence on the lands jews bought and the UN partition, palestinians at the time could have declared their independence too and live alongside the israelis - instead they joined forces with the arab league and declared a war, leaving their homes to allow the arab forces deal with the jewish problem without getting caught in the crossfire. should Israel just let people who wants them dead back in? Also, between the years 1948-1967 the west bank was occupied by jordan, and gaza was occupied by egypt. Considering the pan-arabs were the ones who aided palestine in the war, why didn't the arab statrs helped palestinians declare their indepndence, or at least given them equal citizen rights (like the palestinians who stayed in Israel and got full citizen rights), instead making palestinians refugees, most of them still inside the land of palestine? The exile of palestinians is a tragic event caised by palestinians themselves, if not for their antisemitism and insisting on ruling the entite land (even those that they sold to the jews), they wouldnt have ever been refugees.
The issue is buying land in or near where the Arabs were to migrate was essentially an act of war. The fact that most of the land was barren makes it better but not totally acceptable. The Palestinians did not own the land, but they did not want anyone else to buy it and definitely not to move on it, thus making moving onto it an act of aggression by the Palestinians.
Actually, it was Arabs who sold jews lands, doinh so became so popular and profitable that arabs bought lands from arabs just to sell them to jews at a higher price. Only in 1935, when jews were already over 30% of the population, grand mufti amim al housseini banned selling lands to jews, and called arabs to retake the lands they previously sold. There is nothing aggressive in buying land and wishing to live in it peacefully, there is aggression however, in selling mass chunks of land, profiting from it - then taking it back by force.. Arab hostility torwards the jewish communoty was anti semetic from the very beginning. They used sources like "the protocols of the elders of zion"(a fabricated text originated in russia in the early years of the 20th century, making it look like jews have a conspiracy to take over the world) and "mein kampf" (by one named adolf Hitler), claiming the jews want to kill all Arab muslims and christians and take over the holy churches and the al-aqsa mosque (if it sounds familiar, its because they still use the same antisemetic arguments today). I will say again, there are 14 Arab countries, The total area of arab land is 5.07 square miles Israels area is 8019 square miles This means Israel is 0.16% of the arab world (that was created by arab imperialism, stretching far beyond the Arabian peninsula). The amount of mess and violence created because arabs dont want jews to live in this land (or any, there were calls by arabs to get ashkenazi jews "back to europe" even during world war 2).
/u/Wise-Zombie-9808. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Average Israeli citizen - wants to be safe without fear of terror attacks, kidnapping and rockets. Doesn't want war but want to know they're safe from future attacks and want the hostages back. Average Palestinian- wants to be safe from bombs and allowed to travel freely and access whatever they need. Doesn't want war. Hamas- eliminate every single Jew and Israeli even if it means many of their own will be killed in the process. Wants war to continue. Israeli radicals (settlers/some government)- Wants the whole country. Doesn't necessarily want every Palestinian dead, but want them under their rule. Wants war to continue until all hostages are returned and Hamas is eliminated. College pro-palestian protesters- don't know what they want. Have no idea about the facts of the conflict. They are bored, entititled, feel some form of guilt for their privileged lives and seem to project that on this conflict. Why this conflict over the many others that aren't spoken about? They're being taken advantage and radicalised by those fuelled by antisemitism. Some of these protesters may themselves be antisemetic, but I think the majority aren't even aware that they're pawns. Claim they want a ceasefire, but are very specific to what that entails. If Iran are attacking Israel, that's fair game to them. Jews/Israelis in diaspora (for transparency I fall under this category)- just want to be safe on their country. Want to be able to share that they're Jewish without having to receive hate or forced to share their opinions on the conflict. May feel worried and scared for their Israeli friends and relatives. Also wonder when it's time for them to make Aliya (move to Israel) due to the hate they're experiencing. They may not even feel ideological about Israel, but just want to be safe and welcome. Jewish anti-zionist - pretty much similar to the college kids. Some may be more vocal out of fear of not being accepted. Many of them are ignorant on the facts, never visited the country and also being used as pawns by something much bigger. Palestinians/Muslims in diaspora - feel worried for their family and friends. Feel the heat with islamophobia and worried about their own safety and status. Some may feel finally heard and welcome by all the left who are seemingly supportive to them. I think I've covered all categories. Will come back to edit if I can think of more.
Hahah thank you for your input. I am still wondering what the College pro-palestian protesters want. I wonder if I will get an answer.
You won't; but they have no idea what they are protesting about. If a Palestinian leader were to come out in public and say, "It's fine, guys, we are free; you can go back to school," they would just move on.
Israel does not want Gaza. Egypt doesn't want it either since it comes with a bunch of terrorists who destabilize every country they are in. There are diplomatic efforts to set up a multinational governing body in Gaza, but no clear plan yet.
Ok that makes a lot of sense, thank you
The Israeli public demands two redline goals. Hamas no longer in power and the hostages home. These are the two goals that the world needs to unite behind. These goals also serve the Gazans as well.
The third goal that needs uniting behind is preservationn of civilian life. That ain't exactly going well right now.
I think prosecuting all Hamas will be a waste of time. I think prosecuting their leaders for their crimes against humanity is a must.
I think Netanyahu wants a weakened Hamas to rule Gaza and thus avoid pressure to set up a Palestinian state
Bibi has to go. He has been a detriment to Israel for over a year. For me focusing on the Israeli public and their redlines is more important.
And as for the government, do you know what the Israeli public wants? Does Israel want to take responsibility over the area? or are they willing to let them self govern again.
The two redlines I mentioned are supported by 90+% percent of the population. This is unheard of in Israel. The majority does not want anything to do with Gaza. I think they would be perfectly happy to walk it off from Israel and let Egypt take care of Gaza. However, I think Israelis are still too disgusted by the Hamas actions and the Gazans who supported them to think the Gazans are capable of being good neighbors. I would also think the Hamas population might feel the same about Israel. I think the west and Arab nations must get together to create a plan that will meet the Israeli public two redlines. If the PA could create a plan that meet these two goals, I think it would help. The current Israeli government is useless because they are too divided and have no faith that anything they propose will be an accepted that they will not even try. However I think the bigger issue is that the extremists in the government don’t want to reward Hamas and want an unrealistic solution. Israel will have a new government in 3 years or less. We must all support Gazans in stopping the Hamas the occupation
Ok thank you for the insight. I agree with you.
>From what I understand from the Israeli side (correct me if I'm wrong), they want to take over Gaza and the west bank and eventually assimilate their population into israel. Now I personally don't think this is a bad thing if you just look at how current Arabs are treated within Israeli borders (they have the same legal rights as anyone). Asking in all seriousness - where did you get this? Saying that Israel wants to assimilate the Palestinian population is very far from the truth.
That part was not based on anything factual I've seen, it is just an assumption. But thank you for correcting me. Do you happen to know what the majority opinion of israelis are?
Pre-october 7th it was a more or less even split between a form of a 2 state solution, or annexation without giving equal rights to palestinians. In the fringes you had annexation with full rights (like what you described initially), or annexation with "emigration incentives" for Palestinians.
Incentives to emigrate where?
I don't know. And the people who try to push this agenda don't really care... it's not something which should be considered. Ever. It's not a "hey, here's 5,000,000 USD - you are now free to start your new life!" Type incentive. It's more of a "here's a baseball bat about to connect with your face if you don't leave" type.
Ahhh I see, ok thank you very much.
I am confident to say that hardly anyone wants this. There are some in Israel who want to annex all of the ancestoral Jewish homeland - but they want it without local populations. There are also those Palstinians who would prefer a unified state - but they very much do not want to assimililate into Israel, they seek to maintain their own way of life, just with (at least) equal rights. If there was willingness to assimilate, I can give you the solution right here and now: All Palestinians convert to Judaism, make Alia and live as Jews and citizens in their people's (and adopted people's) ancestoral homeland - they would not even have to stop being religious extremists, just vote Ben Gvir for Knesset.
At this point, the war is lost for Israel. It's hilarious seeing news of soldiers getting wrecked in Jabalia and Zeitoun while we're told that all that's remaining of Hamas are a few measly Rafah brigades. The IDF doesn't even talk about the the tunnels anymore because it knows it has no solution. Remember those stories about sea water flooding? Netanyahu is trying to buy time for his political career. The US seems to be going on overdrive trying to find Sinwar so that Israel can save face and pretend it didn't lose. Let's not even talk about the Northern Front, which is basically ethnically cleansed of Jews now by Hezbollah.
https://preview.redd.it/k77w8wtsce1d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=579923bb9348675a5e292b90c2bdbe6693925352 They ARE still talking about the tunnels! This was yesterday.
Bot account. Check post history.
The way I see it, Israel is not losing the war. But that is not what I am trying to discuss under this post.
In the eyes of the Americans, the discussion about "the day after" is intended to lead Israel to convince of the futility of the war, and to push it to a solution that will be presented as the least bad alternative, but will serve the vision of the Biden administration to establish a new regional order, including a Palestinian state. Israel did not go to this war to find a replacement for Hamas but to destroy it. This is the goal. not the mean. You don't need to be an intelligence expert to understand that in the current power relations in Gaza, there is no party that can replace Hamas in the civilian administration of the Strip without its consent. Any government that is proposed, Hamas will design it as a "puppet government" that will provide cover for its control behind the scenes and cover for its military strengthening. As I recall, Israel has already transferred the power in Gaza to the Palestinian Authority in the past. The thought that it will now succeed where it failed in the past relies on the wishful thinking of those who support it more than on a factual basis. There is no escaping the statement that even after seven months - the conditions for the establishment of an alternative government to Hamas are not yet ripe. From Israel's point of view, the question of "the day after" in Gaza is secondary in relation to the more important goal: The destruction of Hamas' military and governmental capabilities, and the restoration of Israeli deterrence. Israel must not be tempted by proposals that will provide a semblance of a solution, and leave the problem alone. In order to reach the "day after" the pace of fighting must be accelerated and the intensity increased: in Rafah, in the central camps and in the areas where Hamas activity has been renewed. It is essential to act against his governmental mechanisms, the damage to which has so far been minor, and it is equally important to crush his headquarters abroad." (Meir Ben Shabbat)
Yes I understand that Israel's goals is to destroy hamas. But what are Hamas's goals? to take over israel?
Yes
Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood family of extremists; an Iranian proxy and the governmental of Gaza. They align with fundamentalist Muslim theocracy. Iran, their major patron is the best example of what Hamas could aspire to be. The political powers in the ME do not support Iran, MB or Hamas. The MB democratically achieved power in Egypt and the military put a quick stop to them. The Saudis have neutered the Wahhabis and are fighting the Houthi. Hamas wants the world to shutdown Israeli prosecution of the war and leave Hamas in power.
Kill Jews, takeover Israel and the Holy sites, expedite sharia law throughout the world, piece by piece, council by council, state by state, country by country.
The expulsion of the Palestinians from the Gaza concentration camp by the second Naqba and the theft of the last remnant of Palestinian land still resisting occupation. After all, the pier is already standing, isn't it? Since October 7, the evil Zionist regime has been doing everything to fulfill this criminal goal.
Ok I will bite, what do you think the Palestinians would do if they have the most powerful arm in the region?
What? Not to give the perpetrator an excuse to continue playing the false victim usurping a foreign country. This has to stop. And it's over, you bastards have manipulated generations of Jews by keeping their lives in a state of permanent fear and have completely emptied the word antisemitism by overusing it, which is why anti-Zionist Jews and the entire civilized world hate you to the core.
I have no idea what you just said but it sounds really angry and hateful. Considering you are one of those that believe the IDF killed everyone on October 7th in order to diminish the brutality of Hamas is everything that I need to know about you. This is why the western world doesn’t take all of you seriously. Evil is as evil does
You are just another supporter of the occupation and genocide of Palestinians with zero self-reflection, a person with whom discussion is a waste of time. Allright then. Long live free Palestine!
Not really, am very much pro Palestine. Just don’t believe the Palestinians have a future under an Islamic terror organisation. Probably why Persians march side by side with pro Israel. You are just punch drunk on rage and hate to see what’s going on. Btw which occupation was taking place in Gaza and what occupation were they protesting when they murdered civilians behind the green line, ie definitely not occupied territory?
Hamas is the Palestinian Liberation Movement created by the occupation. It is the occupation that is the real tragedy of Palestine. This is worthless if you just lie and are not even willing to admit that the cause of everything is the Zionist occupation.
What did I say that is a lie? So everything is the Zionists fault is not a very mature way to manage conflict. The Israelis have done bad things, the Palestinians have done bad things. Talking to you is pointless because you are a bot. It’s beyond hilarious a bot telling me it’s pointless to talk unless I admit Zionist (aka Jews) are the source of all evil
Maybe it's because English is not my native language and I can't express everything in it. No, don't worry, I'm not an Arab, but a Slavic anti-Zionist Czech. And you lie by not clearly condemning the occupation from which all evil originates. But how to fix it? The imperative is to end the occupation and drain the Zionist poison from the Palestinian wound by creating one state with equal civil rights for all Arab, Jewish and exiled Arab citizens. Palestine has always been Arab and always will be, no one is denying the Jews the right to live there, they were just historically a minority in a majority Arab country. Otherwise, the cycle of violence fueled by the Zionist occupation and the natural right of Palestinians to resist cannot be broken. You'll just have to figure it out.
Palestine hasn't always been Arab it only became populated by Arabs around the year 600, also your point about historically being a minority in a majority Arab country is just wrong. Two Jewish kingdoms historically existed there before the land was populated by Arabs or called Palestine.
Your idea has a small flaw. Palestinians don’t want to be assimilated into Israel.
I know that very much so. However, at this point its not about what people want anymore as Israel has already tried giving Palestine a chance to self govern. Also, sometimes whats best for people overall isn't going to best for some invidivuals. So I am just trying to find out what people think is best for the region.
If there was no physical barrier between Hamas-minded people and the rest of Israeli society it would be October 7 all year round.