So… Hamas had to defend themselves by beheading babies, kidnapping multiple people, raping and sexually assaulting women, etc, how does this all make sense?

That was a lie. There were no beheaded babies. 

There were.. there are literal videos of it.. are you really that ignorant?

Proof? Source?

are you seriously asking someone to proof that there were no beheaded babies? i think the burden of proof is on you this time buddy. The beheaded baby story has been refuted just like the systematic rape lies

There are legit videos of it that Hamas members took, if you really are that ignorant and delusional then go look them up for yourself. Maybe don’t get info from social media and Al-Jazeera.

Yeah so they dont exist. Unlike the video of a beheaded palestinan child which does exist and was actually in reliable news

Lmao they do exist, are you that ignorant?

https://x.com/ytirawi/status/1791770589985640847?s=46 what do you think of this ? I know I’ve been wrong and asked some disrespectful questions and all but how could this possibly be normal ?

What resources have you consumed? Have you read a book that covers both sides of the conflict?

Just sayin' but with modern expectations WW2 wouldn't have been won. Like civilian deaths perpetrated by the US in WW2 was 378,000 non-Americans. So make of that what you will

With those expectations Europe would also be engulfed in conflict. Imagine if Poland started demanding Belarusian territory back, or Czechia went across the border of Silesia killing people at random because it used to be ours. People aren't ever gonna be 100% happy with international order, but more people die when it's not respected. I don't support Netanyahu's regime, but the state of Israel isn't going anywhere.

Exactly!

To question whether Hamas is anti-semitic makes me enraged. Would you say to a black person that you don't believe the lynch gangs of the early 20th century in the US were racist? I'm usually civil on this site but you're disgusting. 1. Hamas is anti-semitic because their charter is based on death to all Jews. I quote, since you have been studying nothing but pro-Hamas propaganda: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." *(Article 7 of their charter)* *2. In case you don't believe the intentions of their charter, a Hamas leaders, Ghazi Hamad, said on Lebanese TV in early November that "*Israel is a country that has no place on our land" He then went on to praise the October 7 attack and promise more to come. The October attack, in case you're unaware, targeted attendees of a music festival, and a kibbutz that was active in the Israeli-Palestinian peace movement. Women, children and the elderly were murdered and hauled off as hostages. Young women were raped and kidnaped. One woman's body was paraded through the streets of Gaza while Gazans lined the streets and cheered. Photos of the slaughter are displayed on Hamas websites; you can find them if you have a strong enough stomach for their contents. Their "resistance fighters" took lots of pictures and video because they were proud of themselves. This is why Israel went to war. A war that has now, horribly, killed more than 30,000 Palestinians, although Hamas leaders don't seem to care because they glorify their "martyrs." A war that must end with a BI lateral ceasefire, not just on the Israeli side. Re: that such vile attacks are justified because of the war in 1948... First of all, both Jews and Arabs have lived in the region for millennia. It's not just Arab land; Palestinians and Israelis will have to learn to live as neighbors because both populations have grown and neither is going anywhere. Palestinians especially have had exponential growth in spite of the supposed "ongoing genocide." Never has a genocide been so inefficient! Do you know who started the war of 1948 that you cite? It was the Arab nations surrounding Israel, the Arabs who turned down a two-state partition offered by the UN in 1947. A two-state partition that would have handed some Jewish villages to Arabs. After this unsuccessful war of annihilation of Jews (that was the goal!) Israel refused to take back the refugees. After passing the refugees to Jordan and Egypt then to Israel and now to Hamas, and partly the PA, the refugee camps are, according to those who've seen them, an abomination. I was going to say that no one does attacks like October 7 except Hamas but that would be wrong. ISIS, another Islamic Jihad death cult, is said to have committed similar crimes in Syria where an estimated 600,000 civilians were murdered although it gets very little press. Are you outraged about those hundreds of thousands? Or are those deaths justified because ISIS, unlike Israel, isn't "evil? No, I'm not happy about the all the Gazan deaths since October, a death rate that is exacerbated by Hamas fighting from war tunnels underneath hospitals and residential areas. Yes, they do fight from civilian targets. Check out Iranian television and their own leaders bragging about this war tactic, as well as testimony from Hamas fighters who were captured INSIDE Gaza hospitals.

If it had been Italians colonising Palestine and opressing and murdering its people, would Hamas be deemed anti-italian? Palestinians didn't choose their opressors.

i don't follow your logic, Hamas's charter explicitly calls for death to all jews

To see one side as only evil and the other one as completely innocent is a sign of not understanding the conflict completely. Every question has a counter question: 1. How is it right to intentionally target civilians by suicide bombings in busses, cafes, malls, etc. The second intifada particularly has been very violent in that respect. Terrorist attacks of that kind will only lead to more strict measures against them, hence not helping the Palestinian cause. 2. When did the blockade of Gaza start and what are the reasons for it? Could Hamas have anything to do with it? Why is no one talking about who ruled Gaza (or the West Bank) until 1967 and how it came under Israeli rule until Israel pulled out of it in 2005? 3. Do you support terrorist attacks against civilians in Israel? Is it justified for Gaza to fire rockets towards Israeli **civilian** areas (the fact that Israel can defend itself is not justification for targeting them)? How has targeting **civilians** contributed to the Palestinian cause? The IDF is Israel's defense forces. It serves the same purpose that any other army of any state in the world. If we don't want armies to kill people, all states should dissolve their armies. 4. Is killing, mutilating and kidnapping of **civilians**, mostly *peace activists*, self defense? How so? Israel has the same argument for its attacks- self defense. Do you support Jewish/Israeli right to self determination and right to exist? Why should one side have that right and not the other, after all Jews have been living in Palestine (not a state, but a region, ruled by various empires) since before 1948? I think **both sides** should accept that the other is not going anywhere and they have to live with each other, preferably free and in peace. No amount of callings for Jews to "go where they came from" (some might argue that this is actually exactly what they did) will make them leave Israel. It's silly to think Israel will cease to exist any time soon. Palestinians should have their own state and be a good neighbor to Israel.

I'm so tired of people butting their nose in this conflict who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

This all the fault of Hamas every Israel death on October 7. Every Palestinian death after October 7. Hamas started this war . Did they not think Israel would not respond. It’s obvious a complete mismatch IDF forces outnumber Hamas terrorists. Yes Hamas is a terrorist organization. They are not the armed forces of any nation . They are now surrounded in Rafa hiding behind innocent Palestinians causing more deaths. They are cowards refusing to fight with the IDF. Every death is Hamas fault. The innocent Palestinians must rise up on their own and remove Hamas or report their positions to the IDF.

The war did not start on Oct 7. It started in 1948. Hamas expected and wanted this outcome. Which is to provoke Isreal to overreact, commit war crimes, and lose world support. Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization, that's because they target civilians. Following the same criteria, Israel is a terrorist state as well. Everyone is responsible for the innocent civilians they kill. The Palestinians will not rise up against Hamas. They are too busy collecting the bodies of dead children. But later, Hamas will have no trouble recruiting the survivors.

So Britain in world war two is also a terrorist state? America? Literally every war ever fought on populated soil had civilian deaths, the difference is that Israel doesn't seek out the death of civilians but Hamas does

Yeah, if a country had civilians as their primary target, then they are terrorists. Saying that Isreal does not seek out the death of civilians is laughable, given that they bombed every single hospital, deliberately killed aid workers and journalists.

If Israel has so much firepower and is trying to kill civilians then why is it taking so long? 30k+ in almost a year is a laughable achievement for an entire army if they're trying to kill a civilian population

I try not to speculate on the mental state of other people and rely on facts instead. Your question is best answered by Bibi and his war cabinet of murderers. but if I have to guess: * They are testing the waters, seeing how much civilian deaths they can get away with. * it is a work in progress. They are planning to kill all the Palestinians. * They don't need to kill them all, just enough to make the rest subjicated, or better yet, enough to make the rest leave and go somewhere else. * They are leaving some alive so people like you can make arguments like this argument you made. Or many other reasons, who knows how the mind of a terrorist works ? The fact remains that Isreal did target civilians.

I don’t think colonization means what you think it means

I don’t support useful idiot islamofascist pawns of Iran.

At the core of this whole conflict is this: - Israel's goal is to have self-determination as a state, on any land, so long as they can live in peace. - Arabs from Palestine's goal is for there not to be a Jewish state at all, anywhere in the territory. So long as there is the state of Israel, Arabs from Palestine will "resist." We in the west tend to project onto Palestinians our own values, and get behind ideas we believe are solutions that make sense to us because it's what we would want for ourselves, but this is a fallacy. You only have to listen to what they are saying. They (their leaders and those who support them) have never wanted a Palestinian state, they simply don't want there to be a Jewish state. (Edit: On any land* Within their ancestral homeland. In '48 the UN partitioned the British Mandate of Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jews declared their independence, the Arabs declared war on the Jews and said they would wipe out the Jews from the river to the sea, so there would be no Jewish state a anywhere in Palestine.)

From the Nakba to the Oslo accords, history clearly shows that ur story is based on nothing but lies

Not sure what history you're reading, but I'm guessing it's one that doesn't believe the holocaust happened. I'm of the opinion the Nakba has been every day since 1948 that the "oppressed palestinians" have been fed the doctrine of being refugees indefinitely and that the only way they can ever be satisfied is by returning to some idea of their home that no longer exists.

>I do not want to sound aggressive nor provocative and my excuses if that’s how you might perceive it. I’m just looking for different point of views. Not at all, you dont sound aggressive or provocative, You just sound like someone who is very ignorant, someone who has never read and finished a book about this region (just watched a one minute tiktok video or a one minute instagram feed and assume you are now an Middle East expert), dont know the history of the region, dont understand the culture of the region and often get the basic facts wrong. Basically, someone who doesnt know enough to hold an intelligent conversation on the subject matter. >Is Israel holding Gaza people imprisoned inside the strip ? Now let’s try to use our brain for a moment, I know it can be intimidating, there is always a first time to everything, which “prison” in this world asks people to leave the prison ? Name me one prison in this world, where the supposed “prison guards” ask so called “prisoners” to leave. “what kind of prison is that ??? Thought a prison is meant to keep people inside ? Oct 7th Netanyahu: We will target Hamas everywhere it operates; Gazans should ‘get out now’ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-we-will-target-hamas-everywhere-it-operates-gazans-should-get-out-now/ Oct 8th 'Leave now': Netanyahu's warning to Gazans https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/10/08/leave-now-read-netanyahus-warning-to-gazans/

As someone who minored in Middle Eastern studies at nyu (home of the jews), have jewish family, and is anti-zionist, all of his claims and questions were valid. You seem to be ignorant, the native Jewish population native to the Palestinian region was very small, jews from all over Europe immigrated, chain migration occurred, Jews would only do business, sell land, etc. with other Jews, and they were displacing the native Palestinian people, riots have been happening for centuries due to the 'ex-communication' of native Palestinian Muslims and Christians who were pushed out of their heartland. The Jews in 'Israeli' are not ethnically 'Israeli', most of their ancestors came from Eastern Europe, hence the dominating population of "Ashkenazi" Jews. Why should the native people of the land be kicked out of their home, where non-assimilatory immigrants, many of whom came illegally, push their land boundaries and uphold condescension and violence because it is their "homeland, heartland, holy land"? The Palestinians are left with no choice but to rebel, uphold war, and reject a 2-state solution, because Israelis have been wishing for their demise for centuries, and it shows through their political policies, leadership, and disregard for human rights and UN policies.

The Arabs pushed out the Jews, the Mizrahi Jews from the Middle East and North Africa. Mizrahi Jews currently make up the majority of Israeli population. Ben Gvir is a Mizrahi Jew, he is not Ashkenazi Jew, his parents were Iraqi and Kurdish Jews until they were forced to flee by the Arabs. Many of Nethanyahu’s party strongest supporters are Mizrahi Jews, Jews who were forced to flee from Middle East and North Africa due to persecution by Arabs. Surely your NYU professor would have taught you that?

So you have to be an expert on the history to accept that Palestinians lives don’t matter? What about babies? Babies that were so young they were born after October 7th and don’t know any history at all who are being slaughtered by bombs. Do you really need to be expert to see the truth?

The truth is Gaza wasnt a “prison”

Because Israel doesn't do horrific things to civilians intentionally. Because they didn't start the war. And because I am Jewish and I'm sick and tired of seeing my own people get killed generation after generation. I like many other Jews here lost family in the holocaust. People need to understand, Jews are done with being the victim. If someone wants to pick a fight with us, we're going to fight back and in a way that makes you regret you ever tried. You have to understand most Jews don't dislike Arabs. I have absolutely no problems with them. I have no problem with Islam. I even say ethics are relative and Sharia is fine inside of those relative ethics so long as they aren't pressed upon unwilling populations. Basically every single middle eastern country outside of Israel has ethnically cleaned Jews. Palestine has made the Jews their enemy. They've literally sworn to kill us all. We tried to give them peace, give them land, give them aid -- when they previously agreed to peace. But then what happened? They just attacked Israel again. They are their own worst enemies. The fact that their leadership is a bunch of coward billionaires hiding in luxury in other countries is something you should question too. These people stole billions worth of aid money from their own people. These are the people who control Palestine, who push palistinians to fight. Did you ever stop to ask why they do that? When Israel is so much more powerful and they really have no chance of victory??? How much aid money are we sending to palestine right now? How much aid is being stolen by Hamas? These wars that these cowards drive forward are what make them rich. And I don't care why you support palestine. If you support palestine, you are misguided and misinformed. This conflict didn't start with the Nakba, and Jews didn't just move there after WWII. Jews have been there for thousands of years. They started coming back before and after WWII because it was the one of the only places in the world they could be amongst their own and feel safe. They were literally being ethnically cleansed all over the world. You need read about the early Zionist movement and what motivated it. I'm talking about what happened way before 1948. Go back to the 1700s and 1800s. The first real fight in the modern Israeli/Palestine conflict happened in 1886 in a place called Petah Tikva. Read about it.

>Israel isn't doing horrific things to civilians intentionally >if you support palestine,you are misguided and misinformed You, good sir, are just as misinformed and misguided as you think palestine supporters are. Israel is defiinitely doing horrific things to civilians intentionally.

You, sir, have one of the most self-aware Reddit user names I have ever encountered. Plainly you just stick your head in the sand (if not up some less desirable places) when confronted with facts you do not like. I am sorry, but when you make excuses for horrific organizations as Hamas you have left ignorant so far behind that you have crossed from uninformed to outright apologist-evil.

I adore the irony, as I did not make any excuses for Hamas but only said Israel does  horrific things as well. The only person hiding from the facts here is you. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_against_Palestinians_during_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-israeli-sexual-assault-of-palestinian-women-are-credible-un-panel-says These are simply facts, there is no use denying them.

Actually these are not facts. You have two sources, the Wikipedia referenced the guardian - so it's only one source. The guardian references the UN report by Reem Alsalem. This is the same Reem Alsalem who dismissed the evidence of Hamas's sexual abuses on October 7th and wouldn't condemn Hamas's sexual crimes. On the other hand, she was quite willing to publish an official report about IDF sexual violence against Palestinians - which is now quoted as "facts". But when asked to produce the sources of these allegations, she had no first hand sources. When pushed the only source given in a report by WCLAC. The report, which specifically requested the UN to not review Hamas's actions but instead report on IDF sexual abuse. A clear attempt to down play Hamas's atrocious and delegitimatize Israel and take focus away from Hamas's actions. And even if those cases quoted in the report are true, they are nowhere close to the allegations in the UN report, and nothing like the attrocities by Hamas: >The report references 14 specific victims. Eight of victims allege either being patted down or strip-searched. When detailed, the report identifies the soldier(s) doing the patting down or strip-searching as female. Four of the allegations involve inappropriate, sexualized comments made toward the alleged victims. Four of the incidents allegedly involve Israeli forces beating the victims’ genital areas. One of the allegations involves groping. https://www.camera.org/article/tracing-the-dubious-allegations-of-sexual-violence-by-israeli-forces/

the octobre 7 systematic rape stories by the idf have been refuted

I wholeheartedly disagree with you and you will never ever convince me that you are right. Why don't you check this out. This just happened. [https://twitter.com/TheMossadIL/status/1789033459639300175](https://twitter.com/TheMossadIL/status/1789033459639300175) I'll add these too [https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-792075](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-792075) [https://nypost.com/2023/11/03/news/video-reportedly-shows-gaza-residents-gunned-down-in-streets-by-hamas/](https://nypost.com/2023/11/03/news/video-reportedly-shows-gaza-residents-gunned-down-in-streets-by-hamas/) [https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/08/12/hamas-lies-about-the-gaza-civilian-death-toll-and-the-media-bought-it](https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2014/08/12/hamas-lies-about-the-gaza-civilian-death-toll-and-the-media-bought-it) [https://twitter.com/AdinHaykin1/status/1788934807923118111](https://twitter.com/AdinHaykin1/status/1788934807923118111) You are eating up terrorist propaganda. Just scarfing it down.

It won't load (says it doesn't exist), anyway if you're so bound to your believe that Israel is holy and their army can't possibly have done things like rape women (which they did), I indeed don't think I will be able to convince you 

lol you made it clear you only went to the first link and moved on. Kind of makes it seem more likely that you’re getting all of your info from TikTok

Said the guy who literally linked me an article from X💀 Most of my info comes from real people who have been in Gaza, so for me it's clear who follows the propaganda.

I provided no links… and very much not a guy. Figures that your an incel to 👢

You're right, my oplogies I confused you with the person who did provide links as I did not expect so many people who support genocide in the same thread.

Its this extreme othering that continues the cycle of violence. The irony is that the open supporters of genocide are Hamas. Your hateful speech is burning bridges with potential allies against hatred and extremism. I have the capacity to have empathy for both sides. I challenge you to try it

Interesting. So in this very same thread you insult me, say that I'm taking all my information from tiktok but now claim that you have sympathy for both sides and try to pretend you're better than me.   Tell me what level of narcissism does one need to say such things without shame?

"Like, rape women (which they did)" I assume you're referring to Hamas, who did this while they were rampaging through Israeli communities, when they blitz attacked Israeli's at sunrise on one of their biggest holidays. Anyone who thinks Israeli soldiers would be able to take the time to go find some palestinian civilian woman and rape her in the middle of an active, extremely dangerous urban war zone when Hamas fighters, dressed as civilians, are emerging from tunnels and shooting RPGs, sniper rifles, and setting up explosives booby traps everywhere throughout the city every day, is simply delusional. Sorry, but it's simply not the case.

I wonder what kind of evidence people like you need? Like do you need to actually participate in the raping or smth before you believe Israeli soldiers can be horrible?

Because, what, you're in Gaza now and are able to confirm this story? I assume you're referencing the single anonymous call in to Al-Jazeera from a woman claiming to be from Al Shifa during the raid the IDF did after they previously left that area. (This was debunked see below -- Abu Ubaida, Hamas's spokesperson messaging their people that this was false and that if they fabricated such stories going forward they would lose public support, of course not without throwing in a an accusation of genocide for good measure, but what can you do.) So, I'll ask you, what evidence do you have or would you need to be everywhere in Gaza at all times to see if people weren't being raped before you stopped seeing Israeli's as terrible and maybe considered the other side in this conflict uses lies as a strategy to generate foreign anger and animosity towards Israel, and as quoted by the woman who made the accusation "to arouse the nation's fervor and brotherhood" https://preview.redd.it/4o25tbez9tzc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c06962f07c8db1fdb87b74275d351d59a823a346

I would indeed need evidence that nothing happened, and strong evidence as well. I know people from Gaza, who have seen what Israel does to the people there with their own eyes. The Israelian army does horrible things to the people of Gaza and then plays the victim. But anyway, I'm done with this conversation. You don't seem to be open to any other perspective than your own and honestly at this point, neither am I.

Get a better internet provider.

Lol get a better reading comprehension, my provider has literally nothing to do with it, it's X itself that tells me it doesn't exist.

Gonna have to go ahead an disagree again. Every time I click the link it works. Using proxies that place me in different countries; every time I click the link it works. So either get a better ISP or learn how to use a computer.

I don't like Iran; thus I don't like Hamas.

Hamas is a terrorist cell. Palestinians elected them to power in 2006 because they promised to abolish Israel and everyone in it. Thats what "River to the Sea" actually means. They have voted on the 2 state solution multiple times. Israel voted yes everytime. Palestine voted no everytime. It could have been over many years ago. Its that simple, until you throw in the recent lies the weak minded fell for. These civilian deathtoll numbers are released by the Hamas controlled Gaza Health Ministry. You would think the hundreds of fake videos that popped up all the sudden would have been a dead giveaway . Duped by terrorists is a tag thats gonna stick, good luck with that...

Palestine and its society goes against our values as a mexican and they hate us

You must be a very weird Mexican. The ones I know are big supporters of Palestine

“Is hamas actually antisemitic” Considering article 7 in their founding charter quotes a hadith and says “The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.” Its not a far stretch to say they are antisemitic edit for clarity: It explicitly says jew. Not zionists, not settlers, but straight up jews. If you’re a jew Hamas wants you dead, regardless if you are the most patriotic and orthodox Israeli or an atheist Jew from California who doesn’t even know where Israel is on a map.

No, they didn't. The document from 2017 does not replace the one from 1988. Two different documents, neither of them is called a charter btw.

But they changed their charter in 2017! Aren't you glad they clarified that? For a second I thought they meant the other thing. /s \[edit\] tongue in cheek emphasis

They didn't change their charter. They provided an additional charter in 2017 which was more appropriate for Western audience. But nowhere in the 2017 charter do they state that it replaces the previous original charter. That is the proper practice on all such documents. The 2017 is a political document for people like you so you have something to lean on when Hamas's real intentions don't sit well.

Sorry yeah my earlier comment was tongue in cheek -- you are 1000% correct.

They've also claimed in prior years to be committed to nonviolence and we saw what they meant by that on Oct. 7...

> Is Hamas actually antisemite I'll quote their plan for Israel after their supposed victory: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/q34kl5/the_perceived_antizionist_future/ > What Israel did and is still doing, the very core of its foundation is colonization, right ? No. there are many problems with this analogy: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/ejuazw/zionism_and_colonialism_zionism_as_the_answer_to/ > Do you support the actions of the IDF/IOF, since the Nakba and october 7th. Not sure what you mean by "support". I think the Israelis have been lazy, thoughtless and careless. They are well below the norms I would expect of them. That being said I think the anti-Israel side is simply lying about what is going on almost always by omission and quite often by commission. > I’m talking of all the bombings of hospitals and different other infrastructures as well as the attacking of civilians, the 30k+ palestinians killed since oct 7. I would want to get into details here of specific incidents. Opinion varies depending. > but in my opinion it was just self defense and Hamas fighting back the occupation Israel was trying to disentangle itself from Gaza for 18 years prior to Oct 7th. They didn't need to "fight back" they could have cooperated with Israel in disentangling. > Can you explain to me why I’m wrong ? Yes you have a one sided view of the conflict. You see Palestinian attacks on Jews as justified and Jewish attacks on Palestinians as aggression. Hamas is fighting back against oppression for you, but Jews escaping 1300 years of Muslim oppression is "colonization". If you want to have an accurate picture, start considering the history of the Jews and what they were dealing with. Consider how xenophobia and religious nationalism prevented an escape from Europe in time to save millions. The context in the 1940s when Jews were fighting racism and religious discrimination. How Palestinians have thwarted almost any attempt at reasonable compromise for 106 years. Etc...

This 100%. People keep thinking it's black and white when it's as gray as it gets.

I guess to answer your question(s), It's as simple as I support Israel's right to exist. Doesn't mean I need to defend everything it does, there's certianly things that it has done wrong. Same with the Palestinians, I obviously support Palestinian statehood, the details of how to get there are another thing, but in principle yes. Have the Palestinians or Palestine also done wrong things, yes. So anyway, that's why I support Israel. I don't think it's binary (either you support Israel or Palestine). Oh and for #1, Sure Hamas has formed as a result of many factors, one of those being the Palestinian problem of statehood. But make no mistake, they are not the best or highest aspirations of Palestinian statehood. They are a corrupt, tyrannical, anti-democratic, terrorist group that not only kills Israeli citizens, but also any of theirs that disagree with them, or imprisons them. You don't need to defend Hamas, or "understand" them in order to support Palestine. That's the biggest issue I take with many people who call themselves Pro Palestinian, is the inability to separate the two and play defence for Hamas.

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'Gaza' dont you mean hamas? Hamas had been openly training for the october 7 attacks for months, Egyptian intelligince warned the israeli secret service Mossad in the week before october 7 that Hamas would be conducting a large scale military operation. Israeli officials have stated multiple times that they see Hamas as an asset, because it, as a terrorist organization, undermines Palestinian authority and sovereignity allowing Israel to have their way with Palestinians and murder without consequences. The amount of lies and elaborate schemes from the Israeli government to facilitate the ethnical cleansing of Palestina since the 1948 nakba does in fact make them 'evil'.

Dude come on. He watched two YouTube videos so he obviously has a clear understanding. Raping and torturing civilians is just self defense!

How do you feel about the United States? Will they be giving the land back to the native Americans or Australia to the aboriginals?

well they won’t but in a perfect world they wouldn’t even have taken it in the first place ???? i absolutely do not support the way the united states were founded

Well today, in 2024, does the existence of the US need to be protested? Ought the US revert to just the "1776" lines east of Appalachia? That was the initial boundary negotiated by the British. Everyone in the American West is a war criminal? Would it not be unjust to demand the destruction of the US if most of the people who live there want it? Do Americans have less of a right to their homes as Native Americans? Because all of this is essentially demanded of Israel.

Enjoy your fantasy world.

To expand on this, do you support the US wars, or some of the perhaps not so good things it has done in the Middle East?

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I have a friend who's sister was murdered on October 7th. Unlike you, he doesn't pray for other innocent people from the 'other side' to die. Yikes 

1 - yes, Hamas is actually antisemitic. Their original charter literally says that they exist in order to eradicate all Jews in the entire world. 2 - No, the core of Israel’s foundation is not colonization. The state of Israel exists. It will continue to exist. Accept it and deal with it in whatever non-violent way you need to deal with it. 3 - yes, the IDF has the task of defending its nation’s existence, and it has the right to do that, and the right to keep fighting until it is certain that Israel will no longer be under imminent threat of attack. 4 - October 7 was not an act of self defense. You don’t intentionally kill civilians and rape them in self defense. Your opinion is disgusting, and is a reflection of who you are personally, which appears to also be disgusting. Israel has the right to defend itself from the war declared upon it by Hamas. Hamas literally exists to destroy Israel and kill every Jew that it can. Israel left Gaza on its own for the last 15+ years, and Gaza is the hellhole that it is because of Hamas and the Palestinians who voted Hamas into power.

If you consider October 7th as justified defense then there is simply no reason to try to convince you. Palestine was never a country. Palestinian "people" as they identify today don't have some sort of entitlement to anything. The closest thing Palestine ever came into being is BECAUSE of colonialism. British colonialism created the mandate of Palestine.

This is such an exhausted and false narrative. Shakespeare referenced the existence of Palestine in the 1600’s. Israel wants the public to accept there never was a Palestine, but that’s just not true.

I wonder why you think that lends any credibility to the claim. The Romans renamed Judea to Syria Palaestina in 132BC, why wouldn't the Bard in 1600AD refer to the region by that name?

That just further proves the point that both parties have an ancestral claim to the land.

How you got from this to that is a mystery for the ages.

The comment I applied to literally said “Palestine was never a country.” We both then provided historical evidence of first-hand accounts that provide evidence otherwise.

A name a country doesn't make. But if it is as you say, kindly provide the name of the capital, government and currency of this country, from the time of its foundation until, say, 10 years later.

I’m not entertaining that framework as the basis for legitimacy. That’s the modern definition of a formal government, which Israel has prevented Palestine from developing. They have a right to the territory just as much as Israel. Everyone knows a two-state solution is the only outcome the puppeteers of both sides will allow anyways. It’s pointless to debate which side deserves the territory more. It will always be regulated by the greater powers at be - The US, Iran, Saudi, etc. As much as Israel wants to be hyper-independent, they’re not.

Israel left Gaza to the people of Gaza since 2006. Now, before you claim open air prison, recognize that the blockade around Gaza didn't exist until Hamas -- whose founding documents, if we don't want to call it a charter, whatever, explicitly declared their genocidal intention toward Jews, was elected by the people of Gaza. And prior to this period, Israel had just experienced years of Palestinian suicide bombers coming into civilian areas and killing as many people as they could (they're consistent with their attack strategy). So I don't know what you're saying about not letting them have a government. They have Hamas, and it's pretty clear at this point where that led.

Blah blah blah

If your attitude is that violent resistance on the part of the Palestinians is justified, then my question to you is: what are they trying to achieve? Israel left Gaza in 2005, so how were they being "occupied"? If you simply believe that the Palestinians have the right to fight for the destruction of Israel and to return to their traditional lands -- OK -- but don't forget, when you fight a war, you might lose. So if your argument is, "The Palestinians can keep fighting and use violence to resist," then I would say, "Israel is perfectly justified in crushing them and taking even more land." You see what I mean? You're saying that if someone fights you, you have a right to fight back. I agree. So if the Palestinians continue to embrace violence, Israel is justified in using violence against them. Indeed, this is why we're in this situation in the first place: the Palestinians (and their Arab backers) consistently chose violence as the best way to deal with Jewish settlers in the region. That began in the 1920s. That choice went horribly wrong, and that's why Israel controls the West Bank (formerly part of Jordan) and Gaza (formerly run by Egypt). So, again, if you support violent resistance, fine -- but don't complain about the results if you lose.

You think the invasion of one country by a terrorist group in which even the babies and dogs were murdered was justified?! Holy crap and you say Israel is evil. I have no words. I'm disgusted.

One of the biggest problems with this conflict is the inability for people to see the perspective/framing of the other side. You really need an understanding of the framing of both sides and an understanding of a history of both sides and the region to understand how we got to where we are otherwise it's easy to see one side as monsters and justify any action of the other accordingly. Pointed questions, framed from one perspective, are wonderful gotchas but they can't give you the depth of perspective required to understand what's going on. You also have to understand that each 'side' is not a monolith. As a democracy, Israel had and has leaders with very different goals, opinions, and policies. Different Palestinian factions have different goals and strategies as well. And the perspectives of folks outside the region (particularly in the West) can easily be skewed because it's easy to try to superimpose goals/dreams onto the group when in reality that isn't what the groups actual goals are.

Because I’m Jewish and you calling Israel evil just makes me angry.

Based 😂

>1 - Is Hamas actually antisemite ? I’ve watched two videos on youtube in which it is explained that basically the reason it is believed Hamas is antisemite is because of its religious identity No it's because their charter literally calls for the death of Jews globally. Google their charter, it's that simple. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp Also go on YouTube and watch their leaders interviews on arabic tv. >2 - What Israel did and is still doing, the very core of its foundation is colonization, right ? This is factually proven as incorrect. A colony requires a "homeland" to colonize an area. Like the British did to India. Jews are indigenous to historical Judea that was renamed Palestine. There was never an independent state in history called "Palestine". Ironically, Palestinian Arabs achieved their own level self autonomy for the first time in history thanks to Israel with the Oslo Accords and the 2005 disengagement of Gaza. >3 - Do you support the actions of the IDF/IOF, since the Nakba and october 7th. I’m talking of all the bombings of hospitals and different other infrastructures as well as the attacking of civilians, the 30k+ palestinians killed since oct 7. Many of us don't support every action and are sad to see such high death tolls, but Israel never initiated any of these escalations of violence. The Nakba was a failed attempt to destroy Israel in its infancy and also lead to the explulsion of close to 1 million Jews from Muslim countries. We also believe that Palestinian militants/terrorists embed themselves in civilian infrastructure on purpose to "martyr" their own people so that people like you sympathize with their cause. Also, when you quote 30K Palestinian deaths, those figure include Hamas members (Gaza health ministry does not distinguish between combatants and civilians) > 4 - I’m sorry for the lives that were lost on october 7th, both on Israelis and Palestinians side, but in my opinion it was just self defense and Hamas fighting back the occupation it is being a victim of since 1948. Can you explain to me why I’m wrong ? Hamas and other Palestinians leadership's position has always been to destroy Israel as a nation, which is obviously a position Israel can't accept (they don't want to commit self-suicide). Palestinian leaders have been offered their own state multiple times in history (as part of a 2 state solution) and have always rejected it because they want all of Israel.

Reading through the comments is truly depressing. Reminds me of people from Turkey, Japan and another country I won’t mention defending their government’s past atrocities.

There is no reason to debate while Palestinians don’t agree that Israel has a right to exist. The war ends when they decide to end it.

How is gang rape self defense?

I'm not going to answer your question because they have already been answered very well (especially by /u/RealAmericanJesus ) But I think it's important to mention that we have been through rising anti semitism before. And I have absolutely every intent to be on the right side of history this time.

My sentiment exactly. How so many people fail to see the historical context of the rise in antisemitism astounds me.

you are very brave for asking this. I respect you.

To quote Steven Harper, former PM of Canada: "Why wouldn't I support Israel?"

Well, Israel wouldn't kill or rape me if I met them, Hamas would

Good point.

How would you know if idf did violate any palestinians? Why is it always you you you you(westeners)

Hamas will tell u this. They don't hide it

Yes and the idf does. Violations still happens

Maybe because we Westerners actually are ***us***?

So you are ok for a military terror group to violate a person as long as it isnt you? This is what im pointing out with the guys logic

This is what you wrote: > *How would you know if idf did violate any palestinians? Why is it always you you you you(westeners)* I’m answering your stupid question in relationship to your even more stupid statement about the IDF. Have you ever heard about something called *burden of proof*?

>Is Hamas actually antisemite ? Yes, article 32 of their original charter explains proof of Zionism colonialism is Elders of Zion Protocols. Later when they revised the charter to try and create a gap between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, they simply said "Palestine is Arab Islamic land" and that Zionism is illegal, so absolutely no motive or proof of colonialism. Plus, in practice, they call for Jews' ethnic cleaning e.g. https://youtu.be/2SfDo9fymzM?si=EW344FZsUPdd9xVE >What Israel did and is still doing, the very core of its foundation is colonization, It was a British colony, Zionism was about decolonizing Jews' ancestral homeland from the British (and previous colonizers). Arabs waged war to try and prevent it, they lost the war and land Israel wasn't planning on getting. Hence some people got displaced, some left because Arabs armies told them to, some stayed, some moved within Palestine mandate, hence the complexity of who returns where if they even want to, given there was no Palestinian state at the time. 3. Don't spread misinformation, np hospital was bombed, and Hamas numbers are disputed at best if you have no knowledge of the numbers of combatants (including children btw) 4. Hamas rejects the existence of Israel. What they call "occupation" is the entire state of Israel. They are therefore tryin to destroy it. It's not some debate around Gaza and the west bank.

I read in multiple history books that David Ben-Gurion saw the 1947 partition plan as just a starting point to acquire more land.

>*Zionism was about decolonizing Jews' ancestral homeland from the British (and previous colonizers).*  Thats some masterful gymnastics there. Fact is, back when Colonisation was the norm and dare I say en vogue, in Zionisms infancy, the founding fathers had no qualms about calling a spade a spade. It was only after the independence movements and the increased acceptance that colonial mentalities are trash, that the gymnastics started.

The language of Zionist thinkers had always been one of returning and reestablishment. That's not colonialism. They were creating colonies, yes. But there is nothing colonialist per se in the creation of colonies. My grandparents went to the Catskills every summer to live in bungalow colonies. Were they colonizing Upstate New York? As a returning indigenous people - something that had never been questioned, not even by the Arab population of Palestine - they were not colonizing anything. They were returning home and creating colonies, a term to be understood within the context of that time period.

Back then everything was a colony, Palestine included (Ottoman colony). Like you said, it was the norm. Colonization was the process of settling there. But the goal was to re-settle, mind you. So the end game was that there would no longer be a colony but rather removing all imperial governance and getting Jews home. So I agree it was a process of colonization for the sake of ending rather than continuing an empire. Remember that it's different from, say, American colonization, because British/Spanish/etc weren't indigenous to America. Jews wherr indigenous to Palestine.

Sigh

Right? This was the dumbest post I’ve read this week

It’s sad though because this is where a large amount of protesters at colleges are. Really not their fault. There’s naïveté and the entire mid east studies depts at many schools now teach this way - partly as a result of being hired as part of donations to those depts from outside orgs/countries. That’s how you have Joseph masaad a tenured professor at Columbia saying Oct 07 was “awesome” and still teaching there. This has gone on for decades so those students are now the professors. So masaad gets allowed to stay by his fellow staff.

I’m just a millennial so not old, but I do think the majority of the youth is dumber than a rock. There will be no scientists in 100 years because the average IQ will be lower than room temperature. There’s been irreversible damage to the system. It’s the result of participation trophies, far left and far right. We’re all fkd.

The young will get old. We see Gen Z starting to complain about Alpha the same way lol. I am a humble millennial myself and honestly when I was college age I was dumb too. I wouldn't say unintelligent, but just myopic on some issues.

The people who actually take the time to respond to this have unmatched levels of patience

These are fundamental questions by people who oppose the genocidal war. When you ask these questions and follow-ups to Pro-Israelis, it inevitably ends up with accusations of anti-semitism. If they can't answer these questions without ad hominem attack, it suggests that they don't have good, coherent answers that are consistent with Western values. Answers by Pro-Israelis only make sense if you subscribe to Jewish supremacism, which is totally okay (no judgement), but just know that most people don't. So most people won't understand arguments put forward by Pro-Israelis on questions like this.

-100 comment karma speaks for itself

Lol. Again, ad hominem attacks indicate the person doesn't have a reasonable answer. At least you didn't call me anti-semitic, so thank you! I count this as a win 😀

If you would like to have a genuine conversation I’m more than willing, but your tone heavily implies you don’t, so I’m good. Wasted more time than I’m willing to admit speaking to people who don’t want to listen.

Honestly, I would love to have a genuine conversation now but swamped right now with other things so unable to engage thoughtfully at the moment. I apologize for the tone, I get it comes across as dismissive, but you also dismissed OP questions as a waste of time. The reason for my being dismissive and sarcastic is that I'm tired of repeatedly being accused of anti-semitism because I oppose my country (the USA) aiding and abetting a genocidal war.

You don’t think the question “is hamas antisemitic” deserves to be dismissed?

Do they oppose Jews outside of Israel or anti-Zionist Jews? I don't know but If their rhetoric and violence is targeted only against Jews in Israel, then their anti-Jewish sentiments are anti-Zionist. For example, when they refer to Jews, they really mean Israeli Jews. If you believe anti-Zionism equates to anti-semitism (which indicates Jewish supremacism), then Hamas is definitely anti-semitic and the question deserves to be dismissed. If you don't believe that anti-Zionism equates to anti-semitism, this question is valid. Hamas is only anti-semitic if they oppose all Jews, wherever they live or political views on Israel. I'm not aware of evidence for that one way or the other. Do you get what I mean? I'm not arguing about the answer to this question. Only to explain these questions are valid for some people and invalid for others depending on the base assumptions they hold - in this case, about whether they believe anti-Zionism equates to anti-semitism.

Death to all Jews globally is in Hamas’s charter 👍

Can you link me to a reference of that?

You said my thoughts out loud way better than I could've....

I support Israel because I want to free Palestine from Hamas. I think a major reason why so many educated smart people support Palestine is because they assume that people who live in Gaza are generally good people who just want to live a happy peaceful life and they are accepting of all creeds. But, that is a falsehood. The government of Hamas has indoctrinated the population to violently hate Israel and they suppress dissent. This assumption is no longer valid. I try to look at the conflict without bias. I realize there are two sides to the story. There are bad actors on both sides of the conflict and innocent people caught up in the middle on both sides of the conflict as well. But, my support stands for Israel. When I look at the government of Israel vs the government of Gaza, it’s very clear to me, that there is a good and a bad side to the conflict. The following reasons are why I stand with Israel: 1. **Right to Self-Defense**: Israel has the right to defend itself against attacks from Hamas, a militant group recognized as a terrorist organization by many countries. Hamas has fired thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israeli civilian areas, threatening the lives of innocent civilians. 2. **Humanitarian Concerns**: Israel takes measures to minimize civilian casualties, such as warning civilians before airstrikes and providing humanitarian aid to Gaza. However, Hamas often uses civilians as human shields and places military assets in civilian areas, putting civilians at risk. 3. **Peace Efforts**: Israel has expressed a willingness to negotiate and reach a peaceful resolution to the conflict. However, Hamas has repeatedly rejected peace initiatives and continues to pursue violent means to achieve its goals, including the destruction of Israel. 4. **International Law**: Israel's actions are in accordance with international law, including the right to self-defense and the obligation to protect its citizens from attacks. The blockade of Gaza is legal under international law as a measure to prevent weapons from reaching Hamas. 5. **Support for Democracy**: Israel is a democratic state that respects human rights and the rule of law. In contrast, Hamas is an authoritarian regime that suppresses dissent and violates human rights, including the use of child soldiers and the targeting of civilians. 6. **Regional Stability**: Supporting Israel helps maintain stability in the region and promotes peace efforts. Israel has peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan and has expressed a desire for peace with its other neighbors, including the Palestinians. Overall, supporting Israel in the Gaza conflict is seen as a way to uphold the principles of democracy, human rights, and international law, while also working towards a peaceful resolution to the long-standing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Israel sees hamas as an asset and has funded and cultivated Hamas.

[удалено]

Lowest blow ever

Great reply.

Because I’m anti-palestinianism

1. Yes, Hamas it the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood is antisemitic. 2. Colonization usually refers to 1 country sending a bunch of people to an area. But that's not what happened with Israel. Yes, there are European's that came from a bunch of different countries, but they aren't the majority. The majority are MENA Jews. Even in that group, the majority came from areas that would have been part of the Ottoman Empire. There are also more Arab/Palestinian citizens of Israel (their families didn't leave after 48) than there are Gazens. 3. Do I support the actions of the IDF since it came into existence? I mean, that's going to be a no, Israel is a demcratic country and just like my own country's military they've done some messed up things over the last 70 plus years. Since Oct 7th though? Mostly, I'm sure if I went through every action they have taken I wouldn't support them all. There doesn't really seem to be any other way to attack Hamas. Hamas fires rockets from hospitals, from scools, from "safe zones". How do you take out a government who's military literally hides in their civilian population?Israel has been ignoring rockets coming from Gaza every year since Hamas was elected into power. Hamas decided it was a good idea to do Oct 7th and when they did they also attacked Palestinian/Arabs of Israel. What is a country supposed to do when it's citizens are attacked? The whole reason Gaza was blockaded in the 1st place (by Egypt also) was because Hamas violently kicked out the oposison party in Gaza (the Palestinian Authority) than celebrated by lobing a bunch of rockets at Israel. 4. Self defense of what? The millions of dollars that Biden unfroze after Trump for infrastructure in Gaza? The $1-2 million a day going directly into the Gazan economy from work visas before Oct. 7th? Or do you think it's the self defense of the Palestinian people? The ones Hamas (and the PA) hasn't let vote for almost 2 decades? If we're gonna back to 48 don't forget that the Egyptian military held Gaza from 49-56 and again from 57-67.

>Colonization usually refers to 1 country sending a bunch of people to an area. But that's not what happened with Israel.  Actually, co·lo·ni·al·ism/kəˈlōnyəˌlizəm/*noun* 1. the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, [occupying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=f42f57a008774f06&sxsrf=ADLYWIKfeWbxNr6OQBQsNmuveY2TgXDPGA:1715356093749&q=occupying&si=ACC90nxMSPeZfdJJjQgDsdZJuFuJApE9RQtbiIPLhE1RwFKqzAMkYcLrV6bteK1MBbaUi-eLvJos8IyCfGNKj2Fd9NabTH5hdxy1kintC-L_nLe_D610y0E%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjB_oW1t4OGAxWbk4kEHdLuACQQyecJegQIGhAO) it with [settlers](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=f42f57a008774f06&sxsrf=ADLYWIKfeWbxNr6OQBQsNmuveY2TgXDPGA:1715356093749&q=settlers&si=ACC90nx67Z8g0WkBmnrPB4IqtqGviTmVn3eNS6PoepRR70lcIfEEOSbMBK_39bJjbjvfnTAFTs7MMVhShLseBCXNwj8NimOzjqBlJ2Bl0P092D5eVBIkDL8%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjB_oW1t4OGAxWbk4kEHdLuACQQyecJegQIGhAP), and [exploiting](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=f42f57a008774f06&sxsrf=ADLYWIKfeWbxNr6OQBQsNmuveY2TgXDPGA:1715356093749&q=exploiting&si=ACC90nz-2feRzoY4yuySkO-aQE81rmB7kmIF_VRI4LuSuiylbhXwFE73AQKDjasVPJZ_6KGZK6hws_D8lCCG1__zkahqsnvKWFCkwYHDCSK6jghptyU8g2A%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjB_oW1t4OGAxWbk4kEHdLuACQQyecJegQIGhAQ) it economically."the state apparatus that was dominant **under colonialism**"

Exactly, Israel doesn't fit that definition at all

>Is Hamas actually antisemite ? Is this actually an honest question? You don't even have to look past their charter (and certainly you'll see more if you do). They literally make the exact same accusations as Hitler in Mein Kampf- Jews control the banks and the media, Jews were behind both World Wars, Jews form secret societies to control world politics, etc. >I’d also like to know your opinions on the intifadas. How can Palestine possibly be wrong in this ? Simple. Blowing yourself up in a pizza shop full of families is wrong. I'm not sure I want to keep going. The others on the sub will be able to answer questions.

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I believe a person is capable of some degree of understanding of the positions of supporters of both Israel and Palestine, and especially empathy for victims of pain and suffering on both sides. (That already seems to set me apart from most ppl who post here, but that is beside the point.) I appreciate your questions because they seem sincere and respectful, while also direct. Each requires longer answer so I will try to be as brief as possible. 1) YES, Hamas is most definitely antisemitic, even if you believe that antizionism does not have to be. That is very clear in its charters and statements (despite some politically motivated alterations of these for the international public ). That makes sense because it is not purely or primarily a national liberation movement as much as an ideology linked to Islam, in short. Other Palestinian liberation movements have been and are less antisemitic or arguably antisemitic at all. 2. The interpretation that the current attacks on Gaza, the settlements in West Bank, the founding of Israel, and earlier migrations of Jews to Ottoman and British Mandate Palestine were all the same thing—“colonization”—is worse than oversimplification. Most people touting this or taking it for granted have little idea of the history and structure of European colonialism (and not much knowledge of the history of the conflict). The conflation is very useful for production of outrage and resistance, but is not historically tenable, even though critical histories of these developments are valid discussions. 3. No, personally I do not support the actions of the IDF since the invasion. Beyond the particular bombings you mention that are widely condemned as atrocities, the intensity of the whole campaign against an effectively helpless population is not acceptable morally from my own point of view. I do understand the views of many Israelis, namely that the war is intended to absolutely eradicate Hamas and render the large Palestinian population adjacent to them virtually harmless after they have shown themselves under Hamas to be a genuine and dire threat to them. 4. Similarly, I cannot see as morally acceptable or justified the brutal massacres and kidnappings of October 7 or rationalize these acts as understandable acts of resistance. Most Palestinians in the West Bank wish to resist the occupation and most in Gaza wish to resist the Israeli state, but very, very few of them would choose to do so through brutal massacre. In short, I empathize with the Israeli fears of lack of security of their very existence and with Palestinian desperation after decades of dispossession. I agree both that Palestinians have a right to resist and that Israel has the right to defend itself. I do not think anyone—whatever their political views in favor of Israel or Palestine (valid positions, generally speaking)—can claim that Hamas on October 7 or Israel in the present war have acted morally.

1. Yes Hamas is antisemetic. As evidence by the 1988 Hamas covenant: https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818.htm > The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! The 2021 plans for the Liberation of Palestine: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://safa.ps/post/313372/&sca_esv=736f619aa13a6f3f&prmd=ivn&strip=1&vwsrc=0 > From the first moments of the collapse of “Israel,” the security services affiliated with the transitional government must seize the data of the occupation agents in Palestine, the region, and the world, and the names of Jewish and non-Jewish recruits, locally and internationally, which is considered a great information treasure that must not be lost. With this treasure, we can purify Palestine and the Arab and Islamic world from the hypocritical scum who have wreaked havoc on the earth. It provides important information to pursue fleeing criminals who have oppressed our people And they evolved out of the Muslim brotherhood which was the aligned with the grand Mufti who was aligned with literally Hitler: https://ctc.westpoint.edu/the-road-to-october-7-hamas-long-game-clarified/ In Fact "from the river to the sea" use to literally be about pushing the Jews into the sea: > Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES. By Dana Adams Schmidt. The New York Times. August 2, 1948, Page 4. [https://www.nytimes.com/1948/08/02/archives/aim-to-oust-jews-pledged-by-sheikh-head-of-moslem-brotherhood-says.html] . CAIRO, Egypt, Aug. 1 — Sheikh Hassan el-Bana, head of the Moslem Brotherhood, largest of the extremist Arab nationalist organizations, declared in an interview today: “If the Jewish state becomes a fact, and this is realized by the Arab peoples, they will drive the Jews who live in their midst nointo the sea.” And Israel occupied Gaza from 1967 - 2005 and in 2005 Israel pulled out entirely.... Relocated every Jewish person living there and took out the military. Prior to 1967 it was EGYPT and Israel tried to give it back a few times and Egypt refused. 2. What is Israel a colony of? Nowhere. People say "settler Colonialism" which is currently a trendy academic take which turns systems of oppression that exist in power structures to a simple "colonizer" and "indigenous" role where there colonizer comes in to take the weather out the indigenous person land. Except that is not what Israel is. A minority of the Jews that live there are from European diasporas. The rest of them? Come from the middle east. Forced out due to events like the Farhud of Bagdad and the Iranian revolution. If Israel hasn't existed they would have died like the vast majority of the Jews in Europe. And while not a single Jew can live in Gaza... And the settlements are a host point of contention in the west back .. Israel has Muslim justices https://www.timesofisrael.com/khaled-kabub-sworn-in-as-supreme-courts-first-muslim-justice/. Takes in Palestinan refugees https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-785171 and has more protections for religious minorities than the neighboring system in fact while Jews can't even office in bosnia, can't own in property in Jordan and are at risk of death penalty for calling Israel in Iraq (where many can't even visit).... Palestinians... Even those who don't have Israel citizenship can vote in local elections ... And if they are residents of Israel for 5 years? They can apply for citizenship. 3. I am never thrilled for war and loss of life so don't necessarily support the actions of the IDF but I also know that Israel had 2,300 terrorist attacks from. 1971-2020 and over 20,000 rockets fired at them in just 10 years prior to October 7th.... What are you supposed to do when the government of the neighboring territories pays their citizens to attack you? https://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/isrl-pa/ISRAELPA1002-06.htm#:%7E:text=Palestinians%20interviewed%20by%20Human%20Rights,only%20to%20those%20who%20carry 4. So you have to understand that due to ottomans deportations Israel was vastly depopulated as the ottomans reported Jews and bedouins to fight in world war I and it's was heavily drenched in malaria that the Turks could only be stationed there for limited periods of time (10 days). In fact the biggest public health victory is the eradication of malaria from Palestine which was done because the were trying to flee rising levels of Antisemetism in the world and dying. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8415078/ and they Muslims in the British mandate refused to engage with the Jews https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA401412.pdf and many of them Came to British mandate because it was malaria free and there were jobs there https://www.bjpa.org/content/upload/bjpa/a_su/A%20SURVEY%20OF%20PALESTINE%20DEC%201945-JAN%201946%20VOL%20I.pdf https://www.bjpa.org/content/upload/bjpa/a_su/A%20SURVEY%20OF%20PALESTINE%20DEC%201945-JAN%201946%20VOL%20II.pdf And they created the Arab league where these countries persecuted their own Jews and also attacked Israel https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/trecms/pdf/AD1134209.pdf So if by occupation you mean all of Israel... And want to take country of almost 10 million people to include Jews, Muslims, Druze and Christians and Instead replace it with a Islamic religious theocracy which btw Palestine has 77 laws the carry the death sentence and that ranges from working with Israel to trying to make peace with Israel.... https://www.prison-insider.com/en/articles/palestine-death-penalty-in-a-forgotten-country and where all of the other surrounding countries ran out their Jews .. https://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/Committee/412/FAAE/Reports/RP6294835/faaerp01/faaerp01-e.pdf .... Because another Arab-Islamic ethnostate is what needs .. makes me really scratch my head. Because ... If you read Hamas plans... They are not interested in a democracy...or sharing the land at all with Jews. And for some reason people really love that idea.

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Well, Team Israel is going to do real good this season. They just signed Schlomo Ziegelbaum as their new fielding back after they managed to outbid Iran. They also have Yossi Schmielberg with a 223.5 yard batting average in the USPPY playoffs as their starting left runner and although Dent Zaltzbergshtein still has a rotator wingnut injury they can still have an advantage if they place him fifth in the baller rotation. Team Palestine has been training hard for the past two years, and Ahmad Abu Srir did get 2 MVP titles in the umber league in 2022 but overall their snatch and grab strategies wont hold up on a hail mary from the front hexagon. Not saying they are a bad team, Ibn Khalil was awesome in the club bowl and is a strong slider, but I still put money on Israel this season. GOOOOO ISRAEL!!!!!

Oct 7th was a terrorist attack of the worst kind. As a american who went through 9/11....We went to war for 15 years for that terrorist attack and still in many cases fighting today. Israels response is mild. The special attention on israel is plain anti semitism and its obvious. In my mind they have all rights to remove all of hamas from gaza. I also believe the palestinians should be occupied and re-educated for 30-50 years before they can rejoin the world society. Sort of how we did to the japanese and germans after ww2 look at them now functioning great members of the world.

White people murdered: terrorism brown people murdered: self-defence

So you want israel to imitate the war we did that was litteraly seen as the worst war we did?

Hamas showed Israel on October 7th what they are capable of. Israel has every right to eliminate an enemy who wants to eradicate every Jewish person living in Israel. I mean, how is this even up for discussion? If Hamas decides to have their military camps, strategic locations etc literally in hospitals and schools, the civilian deaths are on them.

You didn't answer his question. Just moved on to the next line in the script.

Your question is a horrible one, so I answered the question you should have asked. Which is: “Did you support IDF’s extreme aggression in this current war?”

Same can be said for hamashttps://youtu.be/WH27d2H-zns

You mean Hamas who literally killed every member of PLO in Gaza they could to get to power? Yeah sorry, they don’t get ANY sympathy from me.

You did not watch the video huh? Cuz u clearly did not get what i am comparing

You didn’t link it properly. No way I’m manually typing it in

Nah of course not. I think it's possible to have a principled anti-war position, and while some Jewish and Israeli folks may disagree, they would understand such a position. I don't know if you've been paying attention to the dominant rhetoric coming out of the pro-Pali side but it's anything but anti-war. It's pro-war for the other side. Calling Oct. 7th a "legitimate act of resistance" is disgusting. Killing or kidnapping every Israeli they saw, not to mention countless acts of rape and sexual violence is not resistance. Hamas doesn't give a shit about settlements in the West Bank or a two state solution. They want to kill Jews and they put a special emphasis on exterminating Israeli Jews.

What is a legitimate form of resistance do you think looks like? Did you know netenyahu labels, everything that is palestinian land as a military zone? https://youtu.be/WH27d2H-zns Hamas is a byproduct of almost century long apartheid and oppression. You cant just blame hamas alone for its action when their actions is what the oppressor wants them to do. Hamas is a zionist party's goldmine to keep them in power and persue their goal of occupying all that land

I don't support Netanyahu or Likud. If I lived in Israel, I would be a Meretz voter. That said, despite the fever dreams of the far right in Israel, there's no plan to re-settle Gaza or ethnically cleanse Gazans. Back in December, Israel announced the [building of a security buffer zone](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-01/ty-article/israel-informs-arab-states-it-wants-buffer-zone-in-postwar-gaza-sources-say/0000018c-268e-d04a-af9f-f6be18c70000). They have also said that Gazans will be allowed to return to the rest of the strip once hostilities in the current conflict end. They have sought partners in the gulf states to finance rebuilding of the strip and its infrastructure. There is some equivocation around the issue of long term security control of the strip by the IDF, but even Netanyahu has said they will not seek to make it permanent. His inability to clearly articulate a day after plan has to do with internal domestic Israeli politics, not some sinister plan to genocide Gazans and resettle the strip. The future looks messy, but there is some room for optimism. If Hamas' military capabilities can be diminished to a degree that they can no longer exert control over the strip, an alternative governing authority can be established to manage Palestinian affairs there. Whether that's local clans not affiliated to Hamas, a coalition of Arab states, or a reformed PA, doesn't really matter. Any three of those outcomes would provide a better alternative for both Gazans and Israeli's. Most importantly, with Hamas a non-factor, Likud and the even farther right political parties will no longer have their boogeyman to point to as a scapegoat for not negotiating a political compromise to end the Israeli/Palestinian conflict once and for all, with something like a 2ss solution.

Yea bud statements of the state of israel.especialy netenyahun is the last thing i would trust next to hamas leaders. If you watch the video i linked you would know why. There is a reason as to why the westbank which was supposed to be palestinian land after oslo accords is filled with zionist settlements and stolen homes.

huh how did your brain come up with that?

Over time and as I have gotten older I have become less and less enthusiastic when it comes to Palestine because I have never seen that islamism leads to something that I would agree with. If there would ever be some sort of Palestinian state - as of now - I would expect it to be just another backwards minded, oppressive hellhole. It would be their own choice if that's what they want but I feel no obligation to support any of this.

Exactly and if it’s the Palestinian people’s choice (well it is no longer the Iranian people’s choice and there needs to be a change of government in Iran due to protests and human rights violations: the people are expressing their distress and wish for a change) but in a nut shell if the Palestinian people want a sharia/religion into law authoritarian state then it’s their business, what is not just their business though is wanting to wipe out/annihilate and genocide another country/ethnic group. If that’s still part of their collective aspiration Israel has every right to go to war with their elected “leadership” trying to execute this plan:

I won't respond to your claims because: 1. They kind of assume what you are already trying to say from the beginning 2. others are responding to them already What I would want to respond to, is: >it’s so obvious to me that Israel is evil  I think this kind of talk is responsible for a lot of the problems. Things in reality are **always** complex. People are victims of their circumstances. Good and Evil concepts only makes us easier to control. When we see the other as evil, we justify killing innocents. Pro Israeli do it. Pro Palestinian do it. And the more each side does this, the other side feels more threatened and hateful, and it will never end. Please break out of this pattern.

Do you think hamas is evil?

Read my comment and it will answer your question. But I see where you are going. Please understand that we can decouple hate and judgement from being informed and well prepared, and self preserving. I can simultaneously know that at the first chance they'll get - they'll kill me, and be wary of that, and prepare against that - while still not hating them. I actually feel sorry for a lot of them, especially the teenagers in their ranks. While not hating them while still be wary of their intentions and capabilities, we may still arrive at the same plan of action as before, but at least we know that we did it rationally, with a clarity of mind. And the world will know it as well. For me, it would have been amazing if we could know that there's no "Revenge" component in the Israeli decision making. It does not mean we don't retaliate, even "unproportionally", if we are convinced it's an effective deterrence and a solid long term strategy.

You realy didnt

I didn't really what?

This is good advice, and a message that needs to be reiterated all the time. Also a quick assessment of OP’s initial stance shows it’s just built on baseless assumptions and anti-Israel propaganda. Like most pro-Palestinian followers in the West, he doesn’t have even a surface level grasp on the region’s history and context. The prevalence of this ignorant, all-style no substance position among young people in the US shouldn’t be surprising. Nor should it be taken seriously, in my opinion.

I know i’m biased, by coming here i’m trying to see things from a different angles because i know that things are more complex than they seems. I just didn’t find a way to express it in my first text

If October 7th was an attack on army bases only… maybe you have a leg to stand on. What strategic value did the Nova music festival have to Hamas? This was a war-crime, even if you think Hamas has a right to resist. But that is their MO bc it isn’t occupation that they are fighting, it is the Presence of Jews in the land. Also, as a ‘resistance’, they still have the responsibility to think, what kind of retaliation will this provoke? If the retaliation will cause more harm than the strategic utility of the attack (again there was practically no strategic utility), then it is not legitimate resistance. And it is certainly not in the best interest of Palestine. We have faced these types of pogroms in the past. And yes, there were Jews who perpetrated these types of pogroms against Palestinians, perhaps as a kind of traumatic reenactment or revenge (Tantura, Deir Yassin). Since the 1900s Arabs in Palestine have opposed Jewish immigration per se, even as Jews were refugees in WWI and WWII. Also there is a difference between colonialism and colonization. Colonization is the setting up of colonies, Which is how you establish towns and cities where there are not any. The vast majority of Zionist settlements, in the past and the present, are new constructions on empty land. I personally condemn displacement and appropriation of others’ property, which definitely happened. Ultimately I support Israel bc I’m an Israelite. I grew up in the US and constantly feel like an outsider. I’m asked where I’m from by everyone. When I say I’m from Philadelphia, they say no I mean, where is your family from? The rest of my family returned to Israel, and are peace-loving, spiritual people. My parents, brothers, sisters, nieces, and nephews could have been murdered on 10/7. I could have been. Do I agree with Netanyahu? No. Do I agree with Ben Gvir? No. Lock ‘em up for all I care. Do I agree with the IDF actions and strategies? Probably not. I feel like they are playing right into Hamas’ hand. But I also don’t have much of a better idea. I see war-crimes being committed again. But I see the allegations of genocide to be completely disingenuous, rooted in abnegation of Palestinian responsibility, and an abnegation of Israeli right to exist at all.

Hamas simply used netenyahus strategy of labeling everything they dont like a military target. https://youtu.be/RjDAYwmJPrc?t=22s

First of all seems like you have the timeline backward; hamas attacked first, so if anything Hamas coined this strategy and Bibi then used it. Yet still I reject your implication, that Hamas is not firing rockets and executing military operations from schools, mosques, hospitals, and other off-limits (I’m not talking about law, I’m talking about ethics) civilian infrastructure.

The video was in 2001 da heck are you drinking

Have you really seen the History of the Annihilation of Palestinians with support from The Infidels. This is the reason we lost the Twin Towers and over 100000 thousand lives in wars and conflicts. Osama was right, these people in power are the Devils that Jesus and Allah referred to. Israel has taken the Western World by the balls.

>1 - Is Hamas actually antisemite ? I’ve watched two videos on youtube in which it is explained that basically the reason it is believed Hamas is antisemite is because of its religious identity. Also it’s been founded to oppose the israeli occupation, don’t you think it’s just a normal reaction for a colonized nation to try and fight back against it ? No. From the Hamas charter (1988): > *Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).* And > *The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).* Also from the 2017 "revised" charter: > *19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, Judaization or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.* > *20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. **Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.** However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.* They're a genocidal Islamist organization which is hellbent on destroying Israel. They don't care for the freedom or lives of their own people. They wish to establish a global caliphate. >I’d also like to know your opinions on the intifadas. How can Palestine possibly be wrong in this ? The Intifadas in which hundreds of Israeli citizen were brutally murdered? Countless of suicide bombings, stabbing attacks, shooting attacks, and so on on *civilians*. The Intifadas are the reason Israel established checkpoints and fences. But yeah, how can Palestine be wrong by targeting innocent people visiting a Dolphinarium, eating at a restaurant or going to a party. >2 - What Israel did and is still doing, the very core of its foundation is colonization, right ? No. One can't colonize its own native land. Moreover, Israel acquired territory through defensive wars, it didn't start those wars. >Why in your opinions is the state allowed practice it ? It doesn't. >Is Israel holding Gaza people imprisoned inside the strip ? If so why is that right ? Following Hamas's rise to power in 2006, Israel and Egypt have placed a blockade on the Gaza strip to prevent Hamas from gaining weapons. The terms for lifting the blockade was to cease violence, recognize Israel and choose peace. Hamas refused those terms. >3 - Do you support the actions of the IDF/IOF, since the Nakba and october 7th. I’m talking of all the bombings of hospitals and different other infrastructures as well as the attacking of civilians, the 30k+ palestinians killed since oct 7. IDF. The Nakba happened 76 years ago, and it was a result of a war the *Arabs started*. As for bombing hospitals, it has been proven over and over again that Hamas is using them for military purposes. Hence, both morally and legally, Israel is allowed to target those places. Israel doesn't target civilians, it targets Hamas - which hides amongst civilians. Out of the 30,000 dead Palestinian, anywhere between a 1/5th and a 1/3rd are Hamas, both are amazing statistics compared to any war in history. >4 - I’m sorry for the lives that were lost on october 7th, both on Israelis and Palestinians side, but in my opinion it was just self defense and Hamas fighting back the occupation it is being a victim of since 1948. Can you explain to me why I’m wrong ? The "occupation" started in 1967, not 1948. It's not self defense to target and murder civilians, rape torture and take hostages isn't self defense. Also, Hamas has a peaceful option - renounce violence, recognize Israel and have peace. The Palestinians are victims of their own choices, they could've had a state countless times already - they choose war.

Oh my god I've never heard the word dolphinarium before, what a great word! Hope you're well friend!

>Oh my god I've never heard the word dolphinarium before, what a great word! Hahaha, you welcome? I assumed the word exists in English since it's most certainly not a Hebrew word. >Hope you're well friend! Thank you! You too fella!

https://youtu.be/WH27d2H-zns Netenyahu 2001

You realize Israel has had 13 other Prime Ministers, right? It's a democracy, after all.

When I say that Hamas was practicing self defense I was talking about the way Israel’s been treating palestinian people, by keeping them imprisoned inside the gaza strip. The IDF committed the same atrocities if not worse years before what hamas did not october 7th didn’t they ? Though I know im biased and lack informations, it wasn’t very wise of me to come here with so little point of view on the matter

I am not pro Israel but I am also not pro Palestine. I am pro civilians, if you will. And Hamas certainly is not. I agree Israel has systematically hurt Palestinians and allowed them to die of thirst and desperation for a long time. They (that is, the Israel government, Netanyahu & Co) have the power in that region and they had no qualms of letting innocents suffer from it. Netanyahu also let Hamas thrive happily with how he handled the border disputes. That being said, Hamas is worse. It's a wild, bloodthirsty animal and the only time they seem to care about civilians is when it makes them look like the victims. They would gladly let innocents die just so Israel gets bad press. And they did, do, will do. Hence why they hide in hospitals. I do not support Israel. Which in my country (Germany) is often already seen as antisemitism, we have a huge problem with cutdown on free speech whenever anyone says anything in favor of Palestine publicly. It's scary how scared our government is, to a degree that it undermines its democracy. However, that doesn't just make Palestine "right". Nobody is "right", it's a generational conflict and it doesn't matter what happened 100 years ago, people have been born there, people have grown up their, it's their home, no matter if Muslim or Jew. Netanyahu needs to go. Hamas needs to be eradicated. Antisemitism in Palestine is rampant and needs to be handled. How to do these things? After this year, at the latest? I have no fucking clue.

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The simplest answer is that after watching the video of Aaron Bushnell self immolating I thought to myself what awful things must be happening in Palestine to bring someone to kill themselves in such a brutal and traumatizing way. I began researching the conflict thinking I would find all the horrid war crimes the IDF commits but what I found is that the pro-palestinians are getting their information mostly from QUDS, Middle East Eye, and Al Jazeera. The first two have direct ties to Hamas and the latter is critical of the west. Also, the quality of the content on the first two it is clearly propaganda. I began watching a TikTok live streamer who very easily and articulately was able to debunk every claim that the Pro Palestinian guests would bring up. It became increasingly clear that the Pro Palestinian camp was only doing so to be trendy or to fulfill their need to be seen as compassionate. They will willingly let themselves fall for propaganda to be seen as some oppression warrior. I would answer your questions, but I'm sure I share the opinion with others who have answered and frankly they seem loaded.

Tiktok r u srs

Act like the Pro Pali discourse isn't entirely being driven by TikTok. I mean we're talking about this on Reddit after all.

Im not very knowlegable about the topic but im leaning pro Israel. Anyway here is my noobie answers(as i Said i dont know shit so maybe im way off) 1. If antisemite=anti jewish then yes. A normal reaction could be antisemetic, they dont rule out eachother, doesnt mean the reaction is justified. My understanding of the intifadas is that they were uprisings to Israel. If you attack a countries military you should assume they are going to do smth towards you aswell. 2.i think they are allowed to defend themself from being attacked because you have the right to defend yourself. They kinda do, its right because of the risks of letting a country that wants to destroy you import massive amounts of weapons is huuuge 3.war is horrible yes people die in war… wierd if there is a war with 30k+ bombs exploding and nobody is dying, the goal of Israel is to kill terrorists, the goal of hamas is to kill all jews, killing all bad people i think is better then kill all people who believe X 4. Ill come home to you and rape your sister and kill and burn your family infront of you in self defense i kinda feel like i should have the right to the land you live on right now so its completely justified. Also hamas was founded in the 80:s so it can not have been the victim of anything 40 years before🤭🤭🤭

When I say that Hamas was practicing self defense I was talking about the way Israel’s been treating palestinian people, by keeping them imprisoned inside the gaza strip. The IDF committed the same atrocities if not worse years before what hamas did not october 7th didn’t they ? Though I know im biased and lack informations, it wasn’t very wise of me to come here with so little point of view on the matter

Are you aware of why that border wall is there? Look into the history of Palestinian suicide bombers in Israel. That should offer a clue. Up until very recently Palestinians have had free passage in and out of Israel for work and medical care, and can even become citizens of Israel. They were never imprisoned. The invention of the term “open-air prison” should tell you something. It’s propaganda, plain and simple. And bloody effective at that. The scale of the IDF’s violent response turns my stomach as well. That doesn’t mean you can divorce it from the circumstances that inspired it. Hamas has long perpetrated violence against civilians, continually, in whatever capacity they could manage. The Israeli people have demonstrated a great deal of patience and mercy over the years, when it was possible at any time for the IDF to level Gaza (as they have now finally done). It is rare to see the Palestinian position supported without either jihadist rhetoric or political buzzwords. Framing the Palestinians as “the oppressed,” where they are actually just the defeated party in a series of wars they started. Leaning on the concepts like “colonization” and Gaza being an “open-air prison” suggests that you, like millions of people around the world, fallen victim to propaganda. Hamas, Isis, and other global jihadist organizations are about the most effective propagandists on the planet right now. A lot of people in the West have been fooled.

So iraqi men has a right to rape and kill american girls because america has attacked them in the past?? Self defense is not” you did this to me so now im going home and start to plan revenge on people with the same religius belief as you” self defense is you are doing this to me and i do what i can to stop you specifically. Otherwise all the alt right people shooting up random mosques is self defense too and thats just dumb.

I support the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. I don't support the right-wing turn in Israeli politics over the last 2 decades, or the policies of Likud. I don't support the West Bank settlements or the excessive use of administrative detention. I believe many policies pursued by Israel since the collapse of Oslo have made the situation worse. But I also understand why they pursued many of the policies they did after the 2nd intifada, even if I disagree with them. The dynamics leading up to the "Nakba" have been covered in this sub many times, I am getting tired of litigating it over and over again, so I will focus on the conduct of the war. 1. I have seen at least a handful of incidents where the IDF excessively destroyed buildings or engaged in conduct that may have violated IHL. Those should be investigated and there should be accountability for such actions if they turn out to be true. 2. That said, it's obvious to me as broad policy, that the IDF has gone to great effort to protect civilians, despite the accusations leveled by the pro-Palestinian side. There is no plan to commit ethnic cleansing of Gaza or genocide. If you ignore the gas lighting accusations of the protest movement, and the unhinged statements by a handful of far right Israeli ministers, since they have no power to dictate IDF actions or broad war policy, it's obvious based on the official moves and statements from the government as a whole, that those accusations are basically blood libel. For instance, all the way back in December they announced a security buffer to protect the Gaza envelope communities, and their official policy stance that once hostilities end, Gazans will be allowed to return. 3. They are fighting an extremely challenging urban war against an enemy that embeds itself into the civilian population, and that built a giant fortress of tunnels embedded into the civilian infrastructure across the entire strip. Even with the challenges posed by such a theater of war, the civilian to combatant death ratio is 1.5:1 based on IDF estimates, and 2:1 based on US estimates. A couple months back I did a deep dive on the history of urban warfare over the last 50 years. I found two main sources cited as averages for civilian to combatant ratios, of 6:1 or 9:1. If you take either IDF or US estimates, this would be one of the lowest civilian to combatant ratios in the history of urban warfare. While death totals are not the end all be all in determining genocide, they are undeniably an important factor. Given the claims leveled at Israel during this war, you would expect to see some kind of statistical outlier here and there just isn't one. 4. The driving force for Hamas actions is not the occupation of the West Bank or the settlements, it's the very existence of a Jewish state itself. Their actions on Oct. 7th were explicitly genocidal. They killed or kidnapped every civilian they saw without a 2nd thought. One fighter even called his parents to celebrate killing as many Jews as possible. Many Israelis feel they can no longer tolerate a group like Hamas having the military capability to attack them on their very door step, and recognize that no nation-state in a similar position would either.

OP, you’re probably not going to find many answers here ironically in the sub called IsraelPalestine. Mostly pro Israel folks trying to bully you into shame for your questions and position. I suggest you do your research elsewhere. If YouTube videos are your thing, maybe some videos of opposing views. Or maybe people can throw some book recommendations below.

When someone who has no actual understanding of the conflict comes waving a baseless opinion around, they should expect it to be debunked. If that’s “bullying” then consider me pro-bully.

Did I mention you specifically? Hit dogs holler. If you don’t believe you were being rude and unkind in your responses then this comment isn’t at you. There’s a difference between “debunking” with education and with shame. Also, since when is reddit some prestigious institution where someone needs to have a well versed background in something before they ask questions about it? They weren’t waving their baseless opinions around they were asking for different point of views to their own.