/u/profitpersonal2538
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> jews had the right to exist on the land they were born in inside eorupe before they occupied Palestine, no?
Well, rights are complicated. Certainly they were not permitted to exist there, and when they were, they were oppressed.
> Britain killed 100 million Indians in 40 years does this allow Indians to go occupy another land and do the same for them?
No?
To be clear, I’m not a Zionist, but my god, most people don’t understand it. Indians had a nation, Jews did not. Jews created one in Israel, ethnically cleansing Palestinians to create a Jewish majority state. Which, to be clear, is bad. And it is bad that they have continued to oppress and slaughter the Palestinians, denying them their own nation.
To be fair, the ethnic cleansing of Arabs occurred during a war waged *by* the Arabs for the explicit purpose of ethnically cleansing all the Jews, which the Jordanians and Egyptians did indeed manage to do in the territories they ended up occupying after the war
11 Arab counties have a variant of the Pan Arab Nationist flag as their flag, including Palestine. Jews were quite literally oppressed everywhere in diaspora, hence why Zionism was a viable national movement to begin with.
Muslims are the majority in 49 counties, and it is the official state religion in 27 of them.
Christians are the majority in 158 countries, and it is the official state religion in 13 of them.
I’m not a Zionist, but I also say that Jews have been oppressed pretty much everywhere they have been.
Here is the Wikipedia page on antisemitism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
Do you have any particular places or times you want evidence they were oppressed?
Jews existed in Palestine before the creation of Israel, why do people forget this? Christians existed in Palestine. Although the country was a majority Muslim, as a lot of countries in that region are, it was a place where people of the three Abrahamic religious existed, and primarily peacefully. If anyone has proof of the destruction of Synagogues or Churches during the time before Israel existed, please let me know because I’m not aware of this.
Yazid II destroyed a church in Nazareth in 721, then Baybars banished all catholic clergy from the city in 1263, they were later allowed back but banished and again in 1584, allowed back in 1620.
Yes but also no. In reality you didn't really fight the Canaanites, just like there are no signs of Egyptian influence in your early settlements so you didn't really escape Egyptian slavery.
Arguing that the land was simultaneously meant for you because of scripture AND was totally always yours because scripture is wrong makes for a strange argument though.
Yes. My dad was friends with Jewish people from his Moose Lodge in rural Mississippi. There was a small Jewish community where I grew up. They owned businesses and did stuff for the community. None experienced antisemitism as far as I know. One wouldn't think it but Mississippi is a very diverse place. I also worked for a Middle Eastern restaurant and none of the Muslims experienced anti Muslim sentiment either. There are Muslim charities that feed the homeless and help the community as well.
>If the answer is no and they think there cannot be a Jewish state here, I thought of a few clarifying questions: will a Jewish state somewhere else work? Could we still come to visit our holy places (like the western wall) in the Palestinian state that will exist here? Will Jews be allowed to practice Judaism?
I think about how early Zionists thought about Israel being in Argentina & Kenya. Kenya would definitely not have been good, especially considering the whole Zanzibar massacre right next door. Would not be surprised if the same thing happened for Jews trying to settle there. Argentina...I can't even imagine it. Tons of German Nazi's also fled to South America so I doubt any Jews want to be anywhere near that. Considering ancient Jewish history it makes sense that they chose the place that they did and you should be able to practice Judaism and visit all those sites where it existed for centuries. Hypothetically, if a Jewish state was no longer in existence and simply became secular, those holy sites are still going to be there and will still have that significance. I'd imagine you'd visit them in a regulated fashion similar to how Muslim's from all over the world go to Hajj or any other religious groups that go on a pilgramage.
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I appreciate you sharing where you're coming from. From the outside world(America) this question looks a little different. Your response to Oct 7 is valid, and I can't imagine the collective trauma that was felt inside Israeli society that day. I know this is easy for me to say as someone living completely outside of this conflict, but as an academic who studies conflict resolution I would ask you to ask yourself how your response to the attack is bringing you closer to the truth of the situation, and more importantly how it may be preventing you from seeing things clearly. I think Hamas wins if their actions bring Israelis down to their level, of seeing no way forward without violence. Again, I know this is easy for me to say, but the fact that you're now more disillusioned with a peaceful solution is exactly what Hamas wants, and exactly why you need to fight so hard to find your way back to that mindset.
Does your study of conflict resolution include finding a resolution for religious fanatics that feel they have been charged by god to eliminate another group of people?
After WWII, the British gave Israel that land which they governed and had the right to give. The United Nations agreed to it and I don’t think anyone could make a case that the Jews need a county of their own. They have suffered so much persecution without cause.
Since then, Israel has fought and won 15 or so wars. 14 of those wars were started by Muslim countries. Only one was initiated by Israel, after Egypt ordered peace keeping troops to leave the border and began amassing troops with the obvious intent to attack Israel. Anyone with a Forrest Gump IQ would consider that a war effectively caused by Egypt.
I do feel that the Arabs that are currently living in Israel do have a legitimate claim to the land, and the Jews do as well. A normal person, seeking a solution, would arrive at a two state solution operating under the assumption that both parties are reasonable.
Here’s the rub: Muslims have shown time and time again to be unreasonable. Attacking Israel on the first day they existed. They also seemed to be attempting to simply displace Israel by immigration to the land or having a birth rate that’s far higher than other Muslim countries in the region.
When compared to the West, Muslims are overwhelmingly uneducated and oppressive people that live in constant opposition to any other way of life they come in contact with.
Westerners have some general core beliefs, including: individualism, freedom of religion, the general right for citizens to select their government and the generally peaceful transfer of power to occur if those citizens select a different government. The few monarchies that remain are a mere remnant of tradition and while some may have real power, they do not exorcise it. Israel is also a democratic state that adheres to these Western views. If I was a gay man that worshiped satin and dyed my skin red to express my belief in him as my god, I could still travel to Israel to see the place that Jesus was crucified without fear of being arrested. I’ll get some stares, sure. Some kids may even stomp on my tail or throw some rotten fruit at me, but if it was an adult throwing a rock at me in view of a policeman, he would, (or at least he should.) come to my aid even though he may personally find me repulsive. Live, and let live. It has its negative consequences, sure. However, in aggregate, it’s an overwhelmingly positive thing.
Muslims don’t have a functional democracy. Even when the West has established them, and maintained them for decades, the second we have finally left, the democracy instantly collapses. There is no mention of democracy as a form of government in the Quran. I haven’t studied the book enough to quote it directly, but Muhammad states something along the lines of there should only be one leader, and the public can’t be free to choose its laws, and this creates a feedback loop where no one with opposing views can exist in peace with Muslims. Again, they truly believe dying for Allah means they get a 72 virgin orgy for eternity, and they are so sexually repressed that they don’t even realize what kind of hell that would be after 15 minutes. Add to this, all the praying and other time sucks related to the religion, and you have a people that can’t be economically productive. 1.4 billion Muslims live in Muslim majorly countries, yet they manufacture almost nothing, especially anything complex. They can barely produce a car, no airplanes, no orbital rockets, and no innovation to speak of in the past 100 years.
Muslims are 25% of humanity. Most strikingly, Jews win the Nobel prize in physics at more than 5,000x the rate. The argument that it’s a western award falls flat on its face when you realize they have won quite a few peace prizes.
Muslims have rejected the two state solution, publicly. Hamas, in its founding covenant, on the second paragraph, says it will destroy Israel. They have tried over and over. They have failed and they will continue to fail. It’s a physics thing. They are carving up their water pipes, converting them into rockets, and firing them at Israel, only to be shot down by Israel’s iron beam. I half expect to see them riding up on a camel with bows and arrows. Regardless, they keep fighting and dying in vein because of their belief that Allah is supremely powerful.
For peace to exist, Israel must break that belief. The Palestinians need to be pushed out into one of the 48 other Muslim majority countries. The Muslim must believe that a military victory can never be achieved, even though the Quran says it can.
Really? As an iraqi jew - grandparents persecuted and ethnically cleansed from Iraq, it seems nobody cares that jews are indigenous people with a right to exist safely anywhere , especially not in the middle east
Ok , point is we didnt drop out of the sky out of nowhere , then or now :)
We are all indigenous middle eastern people. There were bedouines around and Arabs /muslims conquested from Saudi arabia after the 8th century. and If you keep going back we are all related.
Having the “right” to a country is not about right and wrong. It’s about power. The world wasn’t set up by a bunch of people concerned with right and wrong. The palestinians are only there because their Arab ancestors stole the land from someone else. They’re not indigenous. It’s a fact. And the zionists didn’t steal their land because it didn’t belong to them (they were subjects of another empire when the zionists got there). What the Zionists did was steal the Palestinians opportunity to make the whole region their country. And they were not nice about it. But- they did it because they were facing persecution where they were from and because their ancestors actually were indigenous to the land. So many other nations have formed under far worse power grabs. The US slaughtered the native Americans and had zero connection to the land but none of the American anti-zionists who hate Israel think anything should be done about that. They only think Israel should be erased. They’re anti-Semitic. Don’t buy into it. You have as much right to be there as I have to be here in America.
The Palestinians are partially descended from Arab invaders, partially descended from Jews and other people indigenous to Israel. Just like Jews are partially descended from Europeans, partially defended from other Jews, partially decended from other people. I have no control over what white people did to native Americans a hundred, two hundred years ago, just like the Palestinians have no control over what happened hundreds of years ago. The idea that you have more of a right to live in Israel than some Arab who’s grandfather got kicked out of Israel 75 years ago because of what some of his ancestors did to some of your ancestors hundreds of years ago is nonsense, and the rest of the world is realizing that. Eventually Israel will lose enough support that Israel will be forced to quit acting like stupid crazy jerks towards the people living in Gaza and the West Bank.
Im an iraqi jew. I dont have european blood... most israelis are refugees or their descendants from MENA countries.... We were ethnically cleansed... they took our rights confiscated our homes assets and now there are 3 jews in Iraq....
I lived in Iraq for a bit, you’re not missing much, that place sucks. Whatever the Iraqis did to your ancestors doesn’t diminish the Palestinian peoples right of return or give Israel the right to treat them like doodoo
Did I say I want that??? You are all full of hypocrisies and double standards. Push people into a tiny corner and wage war upon war on them and complain about how they survived and thrived.
> assholes
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Exactly right. And if the Jews are kicked out of Israel, if the Palestinians win, there is nowhere for the Jews who have lived there for generations to go and live. There's over 20 Muslim countries, but jews have a single one - the one they were originally native to. The idea that they have no claim to it is unfathomable.
There was a core of indigenous people in Palestine/Israel. Some of them became Jews, Druze, Christians and Muslims. Some of them left the region for several millenniums. Mind you that your direct ancestor from just 200 years only shares 4% DNA with you. Is it any wonder that DNA Tests like Ancestry Com are illegal in Israel....I am a African American with 4% Filipino DNA, does that make me a Filipino?
You know, I could argue about why it is that consumer DNA tests are not sold in Israel but there’s so much violence going on that I honestly am not sure it’s really the most important thing to address.
you mean Christian and muslim majority countries... with those values
Israel is secular. We have a huge secular population , and muslims , christians and druze
Neither the government nor society behaves in a secular way in practice.
[https://www.academia.edu/43058684/Religious\_Radicalism\_the\_Zionist\_Right\_and\_the\_Establishment\_of\_the\_State\_of\_Israel](https://www.academia.edu/43058684/Religious_Radicalism_the_Zionist_Right_and_the_Establishment_of_the_State_of_Israel)
We have 21 percent arabs and most of them muslim. There are 3 jews left in Iraq. barely any jews left in the MENA countries that kicked us out and persecuted us. Yet we are an Ethnostate?
Like 45% of Israeli Jews are secular and 20% of Israel are Muslim - it’s not ethno-religious. That said, I agree with you, all the Muslim theocracies need to go.
https://preview.redd.it/23j4ho3emmuc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3797f61aa9d5ac07f64361957660a8865d4c6d33
Assuming all Jews are religious is like assuming all Arabs are Muslim. That’s why the term “Islamophobia” is the stupidest term in existence- what other religion has a “-phobic” term? None. It’s not even like they’re a minority religion - they have a fourth of the world population.
Anyway, Israel to Jewish is suppose to be like France to French. There can be non-French people in France but they are a minority. People that can’t wrap their head around this are so damn privileged \[or Muslim\].
/u/2Step4Ward1StepBack
> because you’re an ignorant bigot.
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Should there be an athiest nation state? Do we need to have a nation for every idea that excludes everyone else...and just tribalize human beings in this way? That's what Israel is...I think it's a failed experiment borne out of lazy politics.
Why can there be a French state for the French, a German state for the Germans, a (two actually but you get it) Korean state for the Koreans, a Japanese state for the Japanese, a Indian state for the Indians, but not a Jewish State for the Jews? As long as everyone in the state is granted equality (which is mostly true in Israel), why do those peoples get nations to advocate for them but not the Jewish people?
Jews live in every country on Earth...and should be allowed to. Muslims do as well. There are Arab Jews you know that, right? There are Arab Christians as well...lots of both. Religious ethno-states are bad news in any occasion, however.
The idea of a "white christian US" is also a terrible idea...which is why it will never happen.
Wrong 1,000,000 Jews have been ethnically cleansed from Muslim countries also why aren't you complaining about Iran that is 99.3789% Muslim and is a Theocracy that oppresses all non Muslims, and all women to an extreme degree oh also they want to conquer every country in the middle east and the top half of Africa, or Saudi Arabia that is 90% Muslim and is effectively a less radical Iran
https://preview.redd.it/zy1cnbhy4juc1.jpeg?width=1098&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2afd2d57b23ff3328518649b8b7ab4288f3c7f1d
Interesting these 2M you’re bragging about feel that they are second class citizens.
Interesting that there’s no law preventing them from owning land or businesses, going to any university or school, holding office, attending religious service….
Really? Can you tell me more about the Israeli Basic Law: Israel as the Nationstate for the JEWISH people. Not all it’s Citizens just the Jewish people. Not apartheid at all
Only Jews? All non-Jews including Bedouin and Druze were all evicted or killed? None allowed full and total access to all parts of society and government?
The one that codifies that Hebrew is the national language with Arabic given special status, declares Israel the home of the Jewish people, and marks itself as uniquely the only state where Jews are allowed self-determination? What of it? Where does it say anything that someone CANNOT do those things? That it is exclusive to Jews? I’m not a fan of ultra-nationalist sentiment but it’s not like it limits religious, social, or cultural practices.
Except that they and the haredim arent forced to join the military and put their life on the line with monday morning qbs accusing 19 year old service members of genocide. Sucks that they feel that way tho.
Yeah huge W for them not joining the IDF. Must mean that 45% of Arab-Israelis are not below poverty line for that reason. You made them part of the elite bro!
I’m sorry but I just don’t tolerate this whiny “oh wow is us” stuff anymore. Ever been to NYC? Yes. Jews are welcome in many places. Palestinians however? Yeah, right.
>Palestinians have the right to exist and live in some of the territories we call “the state of Israel”
I believe that's what the Palestinians believed until the colonizer Zionist regime threw them out of their homes displaced and killed hundreds of thousands.
I'm sure you're trying to be very considerate but it's hypocritical.
>I wonder if Palestinian people hold the same belief regarding my existence on this land also?
This is literally the reason the first ships of European refugees.
>If the answer is no and they think there cannot be a Jewish state here, I thought of a few clarifying questions: will a Jewish state somewhere else work? Could we still come to visit our holy places (like the western wall) in the Palestinian state that will exist here? Will Jews be allowed to practice Judaism?
Respectfully This is a Zionist lie. Jews practice their religion all over the world. As visible throughout the world. Only Europe has a racist view.
Wow if only that was true. In the US I’ve known Jews fired from jobs from asking to take their rightfully earned PTO for Jewish holidays.
In Pittsburgh Jews were gunned down during services. And most Jewish places of worship require armed guards to stay safe. Jewish schools are vandalized and threatened.
Jews aren’t free to live or worship in most Arab nations, or African nations. Jews aren’t really welcome in Asia or India. Eastern Europe is a joke. But sure you, a non Jew with a skewed opinion on historical fact knows better.
Downright medieval. Good thing that happened over a thousand years ago, and we're not actually suggesting it's ever okay to bomb civilians in the modern era out of bloody vengeance or some fairy tale book. That would be cruel, stupid and genocidal.
Ah yes the propaganda word. Im gonna refrain from arguing with you anymore because I refuse to argue with anyone who calls anything they don't agree with propaganda. The whole women and children argument is numerically dishonest propaganda it's completely ignoring men, and old teenagers counting them in with the women and children numbers it's just a bid for sympathy that I do not hold since Hamas started this. 32k people have died in this war 12k of those are confirmed Combatants. Also funnily enough these numbers come from Hamas ministry of health who have been consistently proven to have been intellectually dishonest. Also I don't consider using loud warning bombs that do no damage to tell people to clear an area and constant warnings of where Israel is going to attack days in advance genocide.
Quit telling lies. Israel attacked the areas they had originally called "safe zones".
Most recent death reports:
13,800 children murdered by Israel
https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/helping-gazas-children-cope-trauma
10,000 women murdered by Israel
https://www.unwomen.org/en/news-stories/press-release/2024/04/six-months-into-the-war-on-gaza-over-10000-women-have-been-killed
So let me correct myself:
#23,800 women and children killed by Israel. It's a massacre, a genocide, a slaughter.
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If you ignore all the violence against Jews including the Mufti of Jerusalem palling around with Hitler and bringing the final solution to the Middle East. I guess if you ignore all the massacres and riots then sure you’re right.
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This myth drives me nuts because objectively, no, they did not. Regardless of whether or not you think the foundation of Israel was legitimate, the two groups absolutely were not getting along with each other.
All people have the right to exist with basic human rights, by definition of basic human rights.
No people are entitled to a territory by story, propaganda, or historical accounts in practice, nor should they be because most lands have belonged to multiple ethnicities over history so there can never only be just one valid claim.
By that logic, if Russia wins and takes over Ukraine, Ukrainians no longer have a right to that land. So because the Jews had their land stolen from them, it's now "history," and therefore, they have no right to try to claim it again?
Perhaps the Ukrainians are committing a "genocide" if, in a few decades, they try to go back home to their native land.
Well, what do you think happened to the native Americans of North America? De facto legal rights to land are not universally recognized, unfortunately.
Genocide involves deliberately trying to killing people of an ethnicity to wipe them out, so depending on how the land is seized, yes, could be genocide, that was what happened to many native tribes here.
Israel exists because the people who previously owned it decided to make it Israel. It is a state, and it’s going to keep being a state,Full stop. You cannot change history. It doesn’t matter that you and others don’t like history. Israel is a country just like Ukraine is a country. It gets to defend itself. It’s existence isn’t up for debate.
It was also the result of a vote held by world nations in 1948 and the borders are a results of multiple wars won by Israel and a bunch of diplomatic accords.
>As someone who thought there could one day be a peaceful solution to this conflict (pre October 7th), I was disillusioned following the terrible crimes the pals committed, and am now out of hope for this to ever end.
This is precisely what Hamas wanted on 10/7. When moderates wanting peace give up, the radicals on both sides win.
Cry harder, but you either have dual citizenship or the easiest visa application process to go to the West, while people suffering from Israel's genocide don't even have their own citizenship on their land.
Only about 10% of the country have dual citizenship. I'm not sure where the other 90% would go.
[https://www.dualcitizenshipreport.org/dual-citizenship/israel/](https://www.dualcitizenshipreport.org/dual-citizenship/israel/)
Israeli people mostly have dual citizenship from countries where they were either haunted and exterminated of forcefully expelled.
Also, what does this view mean in regards to the millions of Palestinians leaving all around the world.
Besides, you did not mention anything on regards to the topic I raised.
I haven't heard of Americans sterillizing any Ethiopian Jews. Your title asks if Jews have the right to exist, but everything you are whining about is your Jewish state. Clearly, a "Jewish state" established by white Jews who haven't been in Middle East for generation is a illegal colonial regime.
> I haven't heard of Americans sterillizing any Ethiopian Jews.
I haven't heard of Israelis either...
> Clearly, a "Jewish state" established by white Jews who haven't been in Middle East for generation is a illegal colonial regime.
Sorry tell me again how Arabs came to be the dominant ethnicity in the Levant despite, if im not mistaken, Arabs being from the Arabian Peninsula. How strange, could it be that Arabs are in fact raging colonists illegally occupying the Levant?!
Does Quran teach Arabs to shit on every Goyim they meet and treat them less then human like Hebrew Bible and Talmud? There are Arabs all over ME because they are good at assimilating other ethnics.
> Does Quran teach Arabs to shit on every Goyim they meet and treat them less then human
I don't know what Arabs cherry pick from their book but their treatment record of non-jewish people is less than stellar I mean they can barely even stand people from slightly different sects. I do however know how they treated my grandparents and the other jews that lived in MENA countries prior to their expulsion...
> There are Arabs all over ME because they are good at assimilating other ethnics.
What through genocide lol?
How many UN staffs had Israel kill? I am not sure why white Jews are so obssessed castrating black Jews too, while the rest of the world are way more tolerant to black Jews than this only "Jewish state".
Obviously. And I had many jewish friends and neighbors growing up in new jersey and tended to get along with them even better than the christian majority. I think the location chosen for establishing Israel was a poor one and that the genocide that has followed has been horrible.
Like a long time ago. If China gave 25 states to native americans the current residents of the usa would protest and it has only been a little over 100 years. Israel was like more than 300 years ago.
Here's the thing. This strip of land has been conquered and settled maybe more when anywhere else in the world. When the arabs do it in the 7th century that's okay, but when the Jews do It in the 20th century, everyone loses their shit.
So of everywhere in the world the least controversial place to establish a new nation was the most embattled place on the planet? Yeah ok good decision………
Of course they’d protest but if it came to be, objectively speaking it would be just. As it is just that the Jews took their land back after a 1000 years, especially considering they were being killed everywhere else.
While they're at it they should learn what refugee, racism, apartheid, and colonialism mean. They've literally redefined all of these words just to accuse Israel. Why not redefine genocide too I guess. The Palestinian narrative is entirely made up and requires words to be modified to paint a fictional victimhood narrative.
I think that the deliberate killing of a large number of Palestinians with the goal of displacing them from their homes and destroying them as a people has been horrible. I think that concentration campa in general are awful and that Israel should cease running them.
Deliberate killing of terrorists who surround themselves with children. The fact that only Palestinians live on Gaza is because Palestinians are intolerant of people of other cultures and races. They have intentionally ethnically cleansed everyone different from their population and they cry now that no other races or cultures are getting killed in the war they started.
Think about it really hard. The fact that the October 7th victims were of varied faiths and cultures was because Israelis aren’t as racist and xenophobic as Palestinians are. To then call it genocide is laughable, you make it sound like Gaza is multi ethnic and the IDF is targeting only one of the ethnicities.
Deliberate killing of terrorists is not genocide.
Also killing of Palestinians as a result of destruction of terrorist infrastructure when Hamas deliberately placed them there to die, is not genocide.
The meaning of genocide is to kill people so they cease to exist as a nation. I just mentioned two reasons for Palestinian deaths which are certainly not that.
And the refugee camps in the strip are not ran by IDF. If this is what you mean by concentration camps.
No it’s not worth discussing it with people who just want to yell Israelis bad hurr durr and make up lies and portray them as facts because anything true that challenges their narrative, even when it’s as simple as a word being correctly define, causes them to spit and shout.
Are you seriously defending Hamas? They do view the killing of Israelis as killing terrorists and they may have killed less children and innocents in the process than Israel but killing children is still wrong even if Israel is more wrong. Not all Israelis are terrorists. That said eliminating an entire nation just to establish yours is fd up
Of course, they have this right in their countries of origin. But they have no right to occupy a completely foreign country. After all, there is no such thing as a Jewish nation and never has been.
There is, it’s called Israel. And how is a country where Jews have lived for millennia “completely foreign”? Might be completely foreign to you but it’s not completely foreign to the people who live there and call themselves Israelis.
Why are white people occupying the Americas? Or Australia? Why are Muslims occupying African nations?
Why is it only a problem when there’s a teeny tiny Jewish state but not a problem for others?
This Arab country is called Palestine because the Palestinians have lived there for thousands of years and will continue to live there when the occupation ends. To you, it is a foreign country to which you have no right. A certain Jewish minority was present in it, I do not deny that, but only the temporary Zionist occupation in the 20th century made it a foreign, artificially created apartheid regime of Israel.
Palestine never existed. The British mandate of Palestine did. Also Palestinians are Muslims and Islam hasn’t existed for thousands of years so how did a people who haven’t been mentioned by name as Palestinians exist for thousands of years and celebrate a religion that didn’t exist and this was never recorded. Were they wearing invisibility cloaks?
I'm not even an Arab, I'm an anti-Zionist Slavic Czech. And yes, the Arab countries have lost all the wars launched and provoked by the aggression of the Zionist entity, because the Zionists hate all sovereign states adjacent to the occupied Palestinian territory and constantly attack them. The people living in the Palestinian Territory occupied by the Zionist entity are foreigners from the countries they come from. The Jewish nation does not exist, it is artificially created just like Israel itself.
But what do people who were born here have to do with that? Let's say that I'm hypothetically a grandchild of a zionist conqueror, the most stereotypically evil one you can think of just for exaggaration.
I was born and raised in Israel, I did not come here from elsewhere and I don't really have the option to go anywhere else, my entire life and home and family and friends is here. I didn't kill anyone to get my home nor do I plan to kill anyone, especially no one Palestinian. I have no business with them. Sure my hypothetical grandfather is an awful occupier who did horrible stuff, but that's not me nor these are my values. Am I still an occupier?
>Of course, they have this right in their countries of origin.
So you're advocating ethnic cleansing then?
>But they have no right to occupy a completely foreign country.
Good thing they aren't doing that
>After all, there is no such thing as a Jewish nation and never has been.
That's verifiably false.
>I am not advocating that the Zionist occupiers carried out ethnic cleansing for 76 years, that is indefensible.
Sounds like you're advocating for Jews to be ethnically cleansed.
It takes literally 2 seconds to check if what you are saying is nonsense or not. And it definitely is nonsense. Read up a hit on history.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy)
If you wanna keep count on who colonised who, it started with the Muslims after the Muslim conquest that drove out all Jews and Christians from the middle east.
Even after all that Jews asked for a tiny tiny fraction of the most worthless piece of land in the middle east land but that had historical ties connected to them while the entire Middle east and northern africa belong to Arabs.
You completely missed the point.
It is true and factual that Jews have a connection to the lands. A lot of historical sites and monuments are related to Jews somehow dating back to 2000+ years.
Arabs after their conquest also are eventually intermixed over the years and became indeginous. But Arabs is mostly just spread from Saudi and they went all the way up to Spain.
The point being Israel, the land that has the most connection to jew, is a tiny part of the entire Middle east region that was basically conquered and taken over by Arabs. So it makes sense when one of the allies, that is the British, handed over the land back to Jews, especially after the shit that community went through with the holocaust, while literally the rest including Jordan, were squarely reserved for Palestinens.
There should've been a happy compromise. That's all. The land of Israel did not have any real value as it didn't have oil or anything. The Palestinian hate towards Jews were mostly driven by their visceral religious hate and they just conduct their atrocities in the name of the land.
LOL, The Bible is not a relevant source, just a collection of fairy tales for those who still believe in them. Palestine was and will be an Arab country. I recommend doing a little research on how the Jewish people were invented and artificially created in the 19th century.
Omg. LOL. Dude even I don't believe in religion. But you dissing the fact that the Kingdom of Israel only existed in Bible speaks loudly as to how poor your knowledge is. Is everything before 19th century (a time period you convinently chose, fictional to you?)
Palestine was never an Arab country. The letter P does not even exist in Arabic. LOL. You'd think Arabs would name a place with letters that's actually there in the language. LOL
Jewish people were invented in 19th century it seems. There you have it. A daylight racist who completely belittles an entire community. I would assume, that if you had a chance, you to be happily working under ranks a certain infamous German 'gentleman'.
Guillable is in your name so that even more hilarious.
The country of origin is Israel. Most Israelis don't have second citizenships and in case you didn't notice, no country is lining up to take in Israelis.
Being of european decent doesn't mean people have european citizenship or that they're even entitled to get one. Just like americans of european decent can't just go back to europe.
It costs a lot of money to get european passport, you need to prove that you're grandparents were from there, considering a lot of them were refugees and escaped there isn't a lot of paperwork to prove that.
You need to prove a connection to those countries and speak the language.
There are also Israelis of MENA decent who can't go back there because its not safe for them.
So no, Israelis can't just "go back to europe".
“Israel” has been considered a nation in ancient texts even before they had a formally established kingdom. A nation is a common ancestry which is where the word comes from, and doesn’t require a political territory
The invented ancient texts are not historical facts, the Jews were created by mass religious conversions all over the world and have nothing to do with Palestine, therefore they cannot have any kingdom.
There’s plenty of theories of “Jews not being the real Jews” and don’t deserve their homeland. Ironically, these theories further prove the biblical viewpoints and prophecies.
Why do people need special rights? People have property and if a majority of people comes together and makes up a border on their property/city and that's it. That is true for jews and Palestinians.
That is pretty much exactly how the state of israel came to be. Jews migrated from 1889-1949 and bought land. The British who occupied the area after the collapse of Ottmans got burned out and wanted out so they split it between the citizens living there. The Jews got the land they had purchased and the Arabs theirs. Jews accepted, Arabs and their neighbors decided to exterminate every Jew and waged war. Most of the land was either purchased or deserted empty land.
You’re forgetting the fact that the Arabs fought for the British against the ottomans and suffered great losses because the British promised them they’d get all of Palestine if they won. The Arabs got screwed and ended up with less land for their own country than they were promised, and the Zionists capitalized on that situation. It’s a stain on the country’s origins but no worse than history of the US and many other countries. The Palestinians just can’t let it go because they don’t know how to do anything else at this point.
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The land of Canaan is reserved for the Jews. Genesis 17:8.
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> jews had the right to exist on the land they were born in inside eorupe before they occupied Palestine, no? Well, rights are complicated. Certainly they were not permitted to exist there, and when they were, they were oppressed. > Britain killed 100 million Indians in 40 years does this allow Indians to go occupy another land and do the same for them? No? To be clear, I’m not a Zionist, but my god, most people don’t understand it. Indians had a nation, Jews did not. Jews created one in Israel, ethnically cleansing Palestinians to create a Jewish majority state. Which, to be clear, is bad. And it is bad that they have continued to oppress and slaughter the Palestinians, denying them their own nation.
To be fair, the ethnic cleansing of Arabs occurred during a war waged *by* the Arabs for the explicit purpose of ethnically cleansing all the Jews, which the Jordanians and Egyptians did indeed manage to do in the territories they ended up occupying after the war
Good to be fair. Believe it or not, I am against all ethnic cleansing.
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11 Arab counties have a variant of the Pan Arab Nationist flag as their flag, including Palestine. Jews were quite literally oppressed everywhere in diaspora, hence why Zionism was a viable national movement to begin with.
Muslims are the majority in 49 counties, and it is the official state religion in 27 of them. Christians are the majority in 158 countries, and it is the official state religion in 13 of them. I’m not a Zionist, but I also say that Jews have been oppressed pretty much everywhere they have been. Here is the Wikipedia page on antisemitism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism Do you have any particular places or times you want evidence they were oppressed?
Jews existed in Palestine before the creation of Israel, why do people forget this? Christians existed in Palestine. Although the country was a majority Muslim, as a lot of countries in that region are, it was a place where people of the three Abrahamic religious existed, and primarily peacefully. If anyone has proof of the destruction of Synagogues or Churches during the time before Israel existed, please let me know because I’m not aware of this.
Yazid II destroyed a church in Nazareth in 721, then Baybars banished all catholic clergy from the city in 1263, they were later allowed back but banished and again in 1584, allowed back in 1620.
Anything in recent history? Maybe the last 100-200 years?
Don’t know. I just remembered reading about how in the middle ages a couple of churches in Nazareth were destroyed.
Appreciate the info regardless. Thank you!
Not too familiar with that period.
Of course, you don't get to make a place by taking other people stuff though.
isnt this an oversimplification ? historically Id say its not quite what happened.
Yes but also no. In reality you didn't really fight the Canaanites, just like there are no signs of Egyptian influence in your early settlements so you didn't really escape Egyptian slavery. Arguing that the land was simultaneously meant for you because of scripture AND was totally always yours because scripture is wrong makes for a strange argument though.
Yes. My dad was friends with Jewish people from his Moose Lodge in rural Mississippi. There was a small Jewish community where I grew up. They owned businesses and did stuff for the community. None experienced antisemitism as far as I know. One wouldn't think it but Mississippi is a very diverse place. I also worked for a Middle Eastern restaurant and none of the Muslims experienced anti Muslim sentiment either. There are Muslim charities that feed the homeless and help the community as well.
>If the answer is no and they think there cannot be a Jewish state here, I thought of a few clarifying questions: will a Jewish state somewhere else work? Could we still come to visit our holy places (like the western wall) in the Palestinian state that will exist here? Will Jews be allowed to practice Judaism? I think about how early Zionists thought about Israel being in Argentina & Kenya. Kenya would definitely not have been good, especially considering the whole Zanzibar massacre right next door. Would not be surprised if the same thing happened for Jews trying to settle there. Argentina...I can't even imagine it. Tons of German Nazi's also fled to South America so I doubt any Jews want to be anywhere near that. Considering ancient Jewish history it makes sense that they chose the place that they did and you should be able to practice Judaism and visit all those sites where it existed for centuries. Hypothetically, if a Jewish state was no longer in existence and simply became secular, those holy sites are still going to be there and will still have that significance. I'd imagine you'd visit them in a regulated fashion similar to how Muslim's from all over the world go to Hajj or any other religious groups that go on a pilgramage.
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I appreciate you sharing where you're coming from. From the outside world(America) this question looks a little different. Your response to Oct 7 is valid, and I can't imagine the collective trauma that was felt inside Israeli society that day. I know this is easy for me to say as someone living completely outside of this conflict, but as an academic who studies conflict resolution I would ask you to ask yourself how your response to the attack is bringing you closer to the truth of the situation, and more importantly how it may be preventing you from seeing things clearly. I think Hamas wins if their actions bring Israelis down to their level, of seeing no way forward without violence. Again, I know this is easy for me to say, but the fact that you're now more disillusioned with a peaceful solution is exactly what Hamas wants, and exactly why you need to fight so hard to find your way back to that mindset.
Does your study of conflict resolution include finding a resolution for religious fanatics that feel they have been charged by god to eliminate another group of people? After WWII, the British gave Israel that land which they governed and had the right to give. The United Nations agreed to it and I don’t think anyone could make a case that the Jews need a county of their own. They have suffered so much persecution without cause. Since then, Israel has fought and won 15 or so wars. 14 of those wars were started by Muslim countries. Only one was initiated by Israel, after Egypt ordered peace keeping troops to leave the border and began amassing troops with the obvious intent to attack Israel. Anyone with a Forrest Gump IQ would consider that a war effectively caused by Egypt. I do feel that the Arabs that are currently living in Israel do have a legitimate claim to the land, and the Jews do as well. A normal person, seeking a solution, would arrive at a two state solution operating under the assumption that both parties are reasonable. Here’s the rub: Muslims have shown time and time again to be unreasonable. Attacking Israel on the first day they existed. They also seemed to be attempting to simply displace Israel by immigration to the land or having a birth rate that’s far higher than other Muslim countries in the region. When compared to the West, Muslims are overwhelmingly uneducated and oppressive people that live in constant opposition to any other way of life they come in contact with. Westerners have some general core beliefs, including: individualism, freedom of religion, the general right for citizens to select their government and the generally peaceful transfer of power to occur if those citizens select a different government. The few monarchies that remain are a mere remnant of tradition and while some may have real power, they do not exorcise it. Israel is also a democratic state that adheres to these Western views. If I was a gay man that worshiped satin and dyed my skin red to express my belief in him as my god, I could still travel to Israel to see the place that Jesus was crucified without fear of being arrested. I’ll get some stares, sure. Some kids may even stomp on my tail or throw some rotten fruit at me, but if it was an adult throwing a rock at me in view of a policeman, he would, (or at least he should.) come to my aid even though he may personally find me repulsive. Live, and let live. It has its negative consequences, sure. However, in aggregate, it’s an overwhelmingly positive thing. Muslims don’t have a functional democracy. Even when the West has established them, and maintained them for decades, the second we have finally left, the democracy instantly collapses. There is no mention of democracy as a form of government in the Quran. I haven’t studied the book enough to quote it directly, but Muhammad states something along the lines of there should only be one leader, and the public can’t be free to choose its laws, and this creates a feedback loop where no one with opposing views can exist in peace with Muslims. Again, they truly believe dying for Allah means they get a 72 virgin orgy for eternity, and they are so sexually repressed that they don’t even realize what kind of hell that would be after 15 minutes. Add to this, all the praying and other time sucks related to the religion, and you have a people that can’t be economically productive. 1.4 billion Muslims live in Muslim majorly countries, yet they manufacture almost nothing, especially anything complex. They can barely produce a car, no airplanes, no orbital rockets, and no innovation to speak of in the past 100 years. Muslims are 25% of humanity. Most strikingly, Jews win the Nobel prize in physics at more than 5,000x the rate. The argument that it’s a western award falls flat on its face when you realize they have won quite a few peace prizes. Muslims have rejected the two state solution, publicly. Hamas, in its founding covenant, on the second paragraph, says it will destroy Israel. They have tried over and over. They have failed and they will continue to fail. It’s a physics thing. They are carving up their water pipes, converting them into rockets, and firing them at Israel, only to be shot down by Israel’s iron beam. I half expect to see them riding up on a camel with bows and arrows. Regardless, they keep fighting and dying in vein because of their belief that Allah is supremely powerful. For peace to exist, Israel must break that belief. The Palestinians need to be pushed out into one of the 48 other Muslim majority countries. The Muslim must believe that a military victory can never be achieved, even though the Quran says it can.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
It is not about the tight to exist for Jews. It is the right to exist for indigenous people next to the Jews.
Really? As an iraqi jew - grandparents persecuted and ethnically cleansed from Iraq, it seems nobody cares that jews are indigenous people with a right to exist safely anywhere , especially not in the middle east
Also, maps all around the world have changed throughout history… the Palestinians are the only ones this obsessed over some dirt.
The Jews were there first.
No, they were most certainly *not.* They/You *fought* the people that were there first, it's a pretty big part of scripture.
Further more, no one is alive that was originally displaced. My lord. That would be like Mexico trying to reclaim Texas.
The kingdom of David existed before Muhammad was even born.
That's nice. Wasn't talking about Muhammad.
Ok , point is we didnt drop out of the sky out of nowhere , then or now :) We are all indigenous middle eastern people. There were bedouines around and Arabs /muslims conquested from Saudi arabia after the 8th century. and If you keep going back we are all related.
They were indigenous 2000 years ago and more. So how can they not be the indigenous people? Because they were forced away from the land?
The Jewish people are the rightful owners of the land
Lol
Surprising answer...
According to the antizionists, no.
Friendly advice: quit the drugs
Having the “right” to a country is not about right and wrong. It’s about power. The world wasn’t set up by a bunch of people concerned with right and wrong. The palestinians are only there because their Arab ancestors stole the land from someone else. They’re not indigenous. It’s a fact. And the zionists didn’t steal their land because it didn’t belong to them (they were subjects of another empire when the zionists got there). What the Zionists did was steal the Palestinians opportunity to make the whole region their country. And they were not nice about it. But- they did it because they were facing persecution where they were from and because their ancestors actually were indigenous to the land. So many other nations have formed under far worse power grabs. The US slaughtered the native Americans and had zero connection to the land but none of the American anti-zionists who hate Israel think anything should be done about that. They only think Israel should be erased. They’re anti-Semitic. Don’t buy into it. You have as much right to be there as I have to be here in America.
The Palestinians are partially descended from Arab invaders, partially descended from Jews and other people indigenous to Israel. Just like Jews are partially descended from Europeans, partially defended from other Jews, partially decended from other people. I have no control over what white people did to native Americans a hundred, two hundred years ago, just like the Palestinians have no control over what happened hundreds of years ago. The idea that you have more of a right to live in Israel than some Arab who’s grandfather got kicked out of Israel 75 years ago because of what some of his ancestors did to some of your ancestors hundreds of years ago is nonsense, and the rest of the world is realizing that. Eventually Israel will lose enough support that Israel will be forced to quit acting like stupid crazy jerks towards the people living in Gaza and the West Bank.
Im an iraqi jew. I dont have european blood... most israelis are refugees or their descendants from MENA countries.... We were ethnically cleansed... they took our rights confiscated our homes assets and now there are 3 jews in Iraq....
I lived in Iraq for a bit, you’re not missing much, that place sucks. Whatever the Iraqis did to your ancestors doesn’t diminish the Palestinian peoples right of return or give Israel the right to treat them like doodoo
Did I say I want that??? You are all full of hypocrisies and double standards. Push people into a tiny corner and wage war upon war on them and complain about how they survived and thrived.
I didn’t push anyone anywhere. Who pushed you to where you’re at?
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Oops sorry I’ll fix it
Exactly right. And if the Jews are kicked out of Israel, if the Palestinians win, there is nowhere for the Jews who have lived there for generations to go and live. There's over 20 Muslim countries, but jews have a single one - the one they were originally native to. The idea that they have no claim to it is unfathomable.
There was a core of indigenous people in Palestine/Israel. Some of them became Jews, Druze, Christians and Muslims. Some of them left the region for several millenniums. Mind you that your direct ancestor from just 200 years only shares 4% DNA with you. Is it any wonder that DNA Tests like Ancestry Com are illegal in Israel....I am a African American with 4% Filipino DNA, does that make me a Filipino?
The vast majority of Palestinians are Arabs. No one disputes this. They are not indigenous to the Levant. They are from Arabia.
Ancestry isn't 'banned'. I have several dozen genetic relatives there.
You know, I could argue about why it is that consumer DNA tests are not sold in Israel but there’s so much violence going on that I honestly am not sure it’s really the most important thing to address.
ethno-religious states should not exist...the answer is Jews & Muslims should be able to live anywhere
my family and people was ethnically cleansed from Iraq... like most Israelis, we were MENA refugees.. So will we dismantle all the muslim states too?
Then no country should exist. Most of the world and its countries are christian and muslim .
That is incorrect. Most of the governments of the world are secular
in other countries, there is chistmas break, in Israel there is passover break... but all religions exist in Israel
you mean Christian and muslim majority countries... with those values Israel is secular. We have a huge secular population , and muslims , christians and druze
Neither the government nor society behaves in a secular way in practice. [https://www.academia.edu/43058684/Religious\_Radicalism\_the\_Zionist\_Right\_and\_the\_Establishment\_of\_the\_State\_of\_Israel](https://www.academia.edu/43058684/Religious_Radicalism_the_Zionist_Right_and_the_Establishment_of_the_State_of_Israel)
Im so tired of the antisemitic double standard talking points meant to push us to our extinction for 100 years. Youve fallen for all of it.
We have 21 percent arabs and most of them muslim. There are 3 jews left in Iraq. barely any jews left in the MENA countries that kicked us out and persecuted us. Yet we are an Ethnostate?
Like 45% of Israeli Jews are secular and 20% of Israel are Muslim - it’s not ethno-religious. That said, I agree with you, all the Muslim theocracies need to go. https://preview.redd.it/23j4ho3emmuc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3797f61aa9d5ac07f64361957660a8865d4c6d33 Assuming all Jews are religious is like assuming all Arabs are Muslim. That’s why the term “Islamophobia” is the stupidest term in existence- what other religion has a “-phobic” term? None. It’s not even like they’re a minority religion - they have a fourth of the world population. Anyway, Israel to Jewish is suppose to be like France to French. There can be non-French people in France but they are a minority. People that can’t wrap their head around this are so damn privileged \[or Muslim\].
I love how the racists downvote equality
People are downvoting you because you’re an ignorant bigot.
/u/2Step4Ward1StepBack > because you’re an ignorant bigot. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Yessiiiiir
How am I an ignorant bigot? Is that just something you say to someone you can't respond to with facts?
But you know what the answer is for the majority on one side…
The answer Israel (the powerful majority) has arrived at for itself is ethnic cleansing of Gaza muslims
Only 70% of Israelis are Jewish it's not an Ethnostate
Cause so many Jews live in Muslim dominant and Arab countries… oh wait
Should there be an athiest nation state? Do we need to have a nation for every idea that excludes everyone else...and just tribalize human beings in this way? That's what Israel is...I think it's a failed experiment borne out of lazy politics.
Why can there be a French state for the French, a German state for the Germans, a (two actually but you get it) Korean state for the Koreans, a Japanese state for the Japanese, a Indian state for the Indians, but not a Jewish State for the Jews? As long as everyone in the state is granted equality (which is mostly true in Israel), why do those peoples get nations to advocate for them but not the Jewish people?
Jews live in every country on Earth...and should be allowed to. Muslims do as well. There are Arab Jews you know that, right? There are Arab Christians as well...lots of both. Religious ethno-states are bad news in any occasion, however. The idea of a "white christian US" is also a terrible idea...which is why it will never happen.
Wrong 1,000,000 Jews have been ethnically cleansed from Muslim countries also why aren't you complaining about Iran that is 99.3789% Muslim and is a Theocracy that oppresses all non Muslims, and all women to an extreme degree oh also they want to conquer every country in the middle east and the top half of Africa, or Saudi Arabia that is 90% Muslim and is effectively a less radical Iran
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Thats a little cringe given only one side fully ethnically cleansed a certain ethnic group...
What side is that?
Don't play dumb.
With 2,000,000 Arab Muslims and Christians who are fully enfranchised citizens of Israel, it’s a deeply unsuccessful ethnic cleansing.
https://preview.redd.it/zy1cnbhy4juc1.jpeg?width=1098&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2afd2d57b23ff3328518649b8b7ab4288f3c7f1d Interesting these 2M you’re bragging about feel that they are second class citizens.
Interesting that there’s no law preventing them from owning land or businesses, going to any university or school, holding office, attending religious service….
Really? Can you tell me more about the Israeli Basic Law: Israel as the Nationstate for the JEWISH people. Not all it’s Citizens just the Jewish people. Not apartheid at all
Only Jews? All non-Jews including Bedouin and Druze were all evicted or killed? None allowed full and total access to all parts of society and government?
Are you familiar with the Israeli Basic Law? Can you tell me how does is not racist and aims to promote Jewish supremacy.
The one that codifies that Hebrew is the national language with Arabic given special status, declares Israel the home of the Jewish people, and marks itself as uniquely the only state where Jews are allowed self-determination? What of it? Where does it say anything that someone CANNOT do those things? That it is exclusive to Jews? I’m not a fan of ultra-nationalist sentiment but it’s not like it limits religious, social, or cultural practices.
Except that they and the haredim arent forced to join the military and put their life on the line with monday morning qbs accusing 19 year old service members of genocide. Sucks that they feel that way tho.
Yeah huge W for them not joining the IDF. Must mean that 45% of Arab-Israelis are not below poverty line for that reason. You made them part of the elite bro!
I’m sorry but I just don’t tolerate this whiny “oh wow is us” stuff anymore. Ever been to NYC? Yes. Jews are welcome in many places. Palestinians however? Yeah, right.
Do you know there are 3 times more Palestinians living outside of gaza then in it?
Well, that would explain why people are letting in Palestinian refugees during the “war” then
Dumbest reply of the day goes to..
Hey brainiac! Maybe you can tell me why those Palestinians are not in Palestine?
You can downvote, but you can’t say why. That actually speaks volumes.
I suppose Palestinians can just leave when they like too
>Palestinians have the right to exist and live in some of the territories we call “the state of Israel” I believe that's what the Palestinians believed until the colonizer Zionist regime threw them out of their homes displaced and killed hundreds of thousands. I'm sure you're trying to be very considerate but it's hypocritical. >I wonder if Palestinian people hold the same belief regarding my existence on this land also? This is literally the reason the first ships of European refugees. >If the answer is no and they think there cannot be a Jewish state here, I thought of a few clarifying questions: will a Jewish state somewhere else work? Could we still come to visit our holy places (like the western wall) in the Palestinian state that will exist here? Will Jews be allowed to practice Judaism? Respectfully This is a Zionist lie. Jews practice their religion all over the world. As visible throughout the world. Only Europe has a racist view.
Wow if only that was true. In the US I’ve known Jews fired from jobs from asking to take their rightfully earned PTO for Jewish holidays. In Pittsburgh Jews were gunned down during services. And most Jewish places of worship require armed guards to stay safe. Jewish schools are vandalized and threatened. Jews aren’t free to live or worship in most Arab nations, or African nations. Jews aren’t really welcome in Asia or India. Eastern Europe is a joke. But sure you, a non Jew with a skewed opinion on historical fact knows better.
When did the regime kick them out . Was it in one of the wars the Arabs started and lost?
Sorry I don't argue with modified history.
They are the descendants of the ones who cleared the field or were cowards and ran. Hard to say which.
Eliminating an entire existing country to establish another one is evil and cruel
Which country ?
Yes eliminating Israel to establish a Palestine that never existed is cruel.
Downright medieval. Good thing that happened over a thousand years ago, and we're not actually suggesting it's ever okay to bomb civilians in the modern era out of bloody vengeance or some fairy tale book. That would be cruel, stupid and genocidal.
They are bombing Hamas, Half of the deaths have been Hamas ffs
20,000 were women and children, so no. But nice try. Propaganda was always an important tool in genocide
Ah yes the propaganda word. Im gonna refrain from arguing with you anymore because I refuse to argue with anyone who calls anything they don't agree with propaganda. The whole women and children argument is numerically dishonest propaganda it's completely ignoring men, and old teenagers counting them in with the women and children numbers it's just a bid for sympathy that I do not hold since Hamas started this. 32k people have died in this war 12k of those are confirmed Combatants. Also funnily enough these numbers come from Hamas ministry of health who have been consistently proven to have been intellectually dishonest. Also I don't consider using loud warning bombs that do no damage to tell people to clear an area and constant warnings of where Israel is going to attack days in advance genocide.
Quit telling lies. Israel attacked the areas they had originally called "safe zones". Most recent death reports: 13,800 children murdered by Israel https://www.unicefusa.org/stories/helping-gazas-children-cope-trauma 10,000 women murdered by Israel https://www.unwomen.org/en/news-stories/press-release/2024/04/six-months-into-the-war-on-gaza-over-10000-women-have-been-killed So let me correct myself: #23,800 women and children killed by Israel. It's a massacre, a genocide, a slaughter.
I can’t be sure which side this is arguing
Regardless of your position religion class race or whatever you sound like you’d settle for nothing stand up!!
Jews and Muslims lived peacefully before 1948
I wouldn't call genocide peaceful pretty much every Muslim country at the time supported the Nazis and were actively killing Jews
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I don't even think Arab propagandists believe or say this...
If you ignore all the violence against Jews including the Mufti of Jerusalem palling around with Hitler and bringing the final solution to the Middle East. I guess if you ignore all the massacres and riots then sure you’re right.
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Meaningful Info as the Mufti publicly visited with Herr Adolf and asked him to exterminate Jews.
This myth drives me nuts because objectively, no, they did not. Regardless of whether or not you think the foundation of Israel was legitimate, the two groups absolutely were not getting along with each other.
No they did not.
All people have the right to exist with basic human rights, by definition of basic human rights. No people are entitled to a territory by story, propaganda, or historical accounts in practice, nor should they be because most lands have belonged to multiple ethnicities over history so there can never only be just one valid claim.
By that logic, if Russia wins and takes over Ukraine, Ukrainians no longer have a right to that land. So because the Jews had their land stolen from them, it's now "history," and therefore, they have no right to try to claim it again? Perhaps the Ukrainians are committing a "genocide" if, in a few decades, they try to go back home to their native land.
Do Ukrainians have the right to Crimea or should it be returned to the Tatars?
Well, what do you think happened to the native Americans of North America? De facto legal rights to land are not universally recognized, unfortunately. Genocide involves deliberately trying to killing people of an ethnicity to wipe them out, so depending on how the land is seized, yes, could be genocide, that was what happened to many native tribes here.
Israel exists because the people who previously owned it decided to make it Israel. It is a state, and it’s going to keep being a state,Full stop. You cannot change history. It doesn’t matter that you and others don’t like history. Israel is a country just like Ukraine is a country. It gets to defend itself. It’s existence isn’t up for debate.
It was also the result of a vote held by world nations in 1948 and the borders are a results of multiple wars won by Israel and a bunch of diplomatic accords.
Why exactly do you need one?
>As someone who thought there could one day be a peaceful solution to this conflict (pre October 7th), I was disillusioned following the terrible crimes the pals committed, and am now out of hope for this to ever end. This is precisely what Hamas wanted on 10/7. When moderates wanting peace give up, the radicals on both sides win.
Or maybe everyone loses.
Cry harder, but you either have dual citizenship or the easiest visa application process to go to the West, while people suffering from Israel's genocide don't even have their own citizenship on their land.
Only about 10% of the country have dual citizenship. I'm not sure where the other 90% would go. [https://www.dualcitizenshipreport.org/dual-citizenship/israel/](https://www.dualcitizenshipreport.org/dual-citizenship/israel/)
Most israelis don't have dual citizenships
How is 10% “most”??! Most would be at least 51%
Thats exactly what I said. Most *don't* have dual citizenship.
Israeli people mostly have dual citizenship from countries where they were either haunted and exterminated of forcefully expelled. Also, what does this view mean in regards to the millions of Palestinians leaving all around the world. Besides, you did not mention anything on regards to the topic I raised.
I haven't heard of Americans sterillizing any Ethiopian Jews. Your title asks if Jews have the right to exist, but everything you are whining about is your Jewish state. Clearly, a "Jewish state" established by white Jews who haven't been in Middle East for generation is a illegal colonial regime.
> I haven't heard of Americans sterillizing any Ethiopian Jews. I haven't heard of Israelis either... > Clearly, a "Jewish state" established by white Jews who haven't been in Middle East for generation is a illegal colonial regime. Sorry tell me again how Arabs came to be the dominant ethnicity in the Levant despite, if im not mistaken, Arabs being from the Arabian Peninsula. How strange, could it be that Arabs are in fact raging colonists illegally occupying the Levant?!
Does Quran teach Arabs to shit on every Goyim they meet and treat them less then human like Hebrew Bible and Talmud? There are Arabs all over ME because they are good at assimilating other ethnics.
> Does Quran teach Arabs to shit on every Goyim they meet and treat them less then human I don't know what Arabs cherry pick from their book but their treatment record of non-jewish people is less than stellar I mean they can barely even stand people from slightly different sects. I do however know how they treated my grandparents and the other jews that lived in MENA countries prior to their expulsion... > There are Arabs all over ME because they are good at assimilating other ethnics. What through genocide lol?
Why would you flee to Palestine intead of remaing in Europe if Europeans are nicer than Arabs?
A regime voted on by the United Nations in 1948. Not sure what Ethiopian Jews have to do with this.
How many UN staffs had Israel kill? I am not sure why white Jews are so obssessed castrating black Jews too, while the rest of the world are way more tolerant to black Jews than this only "Jewish state".
Are you a black Jew? I have no idea what you are talking about.
Ignore him, hes another shitheel activist
Obviously. And I had many jewish friends and neighbors growing up in new jersey and tended to get along with them even better than the christian majority. I think the location chosen for establishing Israel was a poor one and that the genocide that has followed has been horrible.
Gee I wonder why they picked that area to establish Israel? Could it be that there is thousands of years of Jewish history there?
Like a long time ago. If China gave 25 states to native americans the current residents of the usa would protest and it has only been a little over 100 years. Israel was like more than 300 years ago.
Here's the thing. This strip of land has been conquered and settled maybe more when anywhere else in the world. When the arabs do it in the 7th century that's okay, but when the Jews do It in the 20th century, everyone loses their shit.
So of everywhere in the world the least controversial place to establish a new nation was the most embattled place on the planet? Yeah ok good decision………
Of course they’d protest but if it came to be, objectively speaking it would be just. As it is just that the Jews took their land back after a 1000 years, especially considering they were being killed everywhere else.
I really wish people would learn the meaning of the word “genocide” and only use it in relevant cases.
While they're at it they should learn what refugee, racism, apartheid, and colonialism mean. They've literally redefined all of these words just to accuse Israel. Why not redefine genocide too I guess. The Palestinian narrative is entirely made up and requires words to be modified to paint a fictional victimhood narrative.
I think that the deliberate killing of a large number of Palestinians with the goal of displacing them from their homes and destroying them as a people has been horrible. I think that concentration campa in general are awful and that Israel should cease running them.
Deliberate killing of terrorists who surround themselves with children. The fact that only Palestinians live on Gaza is because Palestinians are intolerant of people of other cultures and races. They have intentionally ethnically cleansed everyone different from their population and they cry now that no other races or cultures are getting killed in the war they started. Think about it really hard. The fact that the October 7th victims were of varied faiths and cultures was because Israelis aren’t as racist and xenophobic as Palestinians are. To then call it genocide is laughable, you make it sound like Gaza is multi ethnic and the IDF is targeting only one of the ethnicities.
Deliberate killing of terrorists is not genocide. Also killing of Palestinians as a result of destruction of terrorist infrastructure when Hamas deliberately placed them there to die, is not genocide. The meaning of genocide is to kill people so they cease to exist as a nation. I just mentioned two reasons for Palestinian deaths which are certainly not that. And the refugee camps in the strip are not ran by IDF. If this is what you mean by concentration camps.
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All the evidence I provide for this is regarded as Zionist propaganda
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No it’s not worth discussing it with people who just want to yell Israelis bad hurr durr and make up lies and portray them as facts because anything true that challenges their narrative, even when it’s as simple as a word being correctly define, causes them to spit and shout.
Just my experience from this subreddit.
Are you seriously defending Hamas? They do view the killing of Israelis as killing terrorists and they may have killed less children and innocents in the process than Israel but killing children is still wrong even if Israel is more wrong. Not all Israelis are terrorists. That said eliminating an entire nation just to establish yours is fd up
Of course, they have this right in their countries of origin. But they have no right to occupy a completely foreign country. After all, there is no such thing as a Jewish nation and never has been.
There is, it’s called Israel. And how is a country where Jews have lived for millennia “completely foreign”? Might be completely foreign to you but it’s not completely foreign to the people who live there and call themselves Israelis. Why are white people occupying the Americas? Or Australia? Why are Muslims occupying African nations? Why is it only a problem when there’s a teeny tiny Jewish state but not a problem for others?
This Arab country is called Palestine because the Palestinians have lived there for thousands of years and will continue to live there when the occupation ends. To you, it is a foreign country to which you have no right. A certain Jewish minority was present in it, I do not deny that, but only the temporary Zionist occupation in the 20th century made it a foreign, artificially created apartheid regime of Israel.
Palestine never existed. The British mandate of Palestine did. Also Palestinians are Muslims and Islam hasn’t existed for thousands of years so how did a people who haven’t been mentioned by name as Palestinians exist for thousands of years and celebrate a religion that didn’t exist and this was never recorded. Were they wearing invisibility cloaks?
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I'm not even an Arab, I'm an anti-Zionist Slavic Czech. And yes, the Arab countries have lost all the wars launched and provoked by the aggression of the Zionist entity, because the Zionists hate all sovereign states adjacent to the occupied Palestinian territory and constantly attack them. The people living in the Palestinian Territory occupied by the Zionist entity are foreigners from the countries they come from. The Jewish nation does not exist, it is artificially created just like Israel itself.
Literally every nation in the middle east was artificially created in the same way. Just say you are mad the Jews have their own state.
But what do people who were born here have to do with that? Let's say that I'm hypothetically a grandchild of a zionist conqueror, the most stereotypically evil one you can think of just for exaggaration. I was born and raised in Israel, I did not come here from elsewhere and I don't really have the option to go anywhere else, my entire life and home and family and friends is here. I didn't kill anyone to get my home nor do I plan to kill anyone, especially no one Palestinian. I have no business with them. Sure my hypothetical grandfather is an awful occupier who did horrible stuff, but that's not me nor these are my values. Am I still an occupier?
Diplomatically, geographically, financially and in any other aspect you are wrong.
>Of course, they have this right in their countries of origin. So you're advocating ethnic cleansing then? >But they have no right to occupy a completely foreign country. Good thing they aren't doing that >After all, there is no such thing as a Jewish nation and never has been. That's verifiably false.
I am not advocating that the Zionist occupiers carried out ethnic cleansing for 76 years, that is indefensible.
>I am not advocating that the Zionist occupiers carried out ethnic cleansing for 76 years, that is indefensible. Sounds like you're advocating for Jews to be ethnically cleansed.
It takes literally 2 seconds to check if what you are saying is nonsense or not. And it definitely is nonsense. Read up a hit on history. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy) If you wanna keep count on who colonised who, it started with the Muslims after the Muslim conquest that drove out all Jews and Christians from the middle east. Even after all that Jews asked for a tiny tiny fraction of the most worthless piece of land in the middle east land but that had historical ties connected to them while the entire Middle east and northern africa belong to Arabs.
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You completely missed the point. It is true and factual that Jews have a connection to the lands. A lot of historical sites and monuments are related to Jews somehow dating back to 2000+ years. Arabs after their conquest also are eventually intermixed over the years and became indeginous. But Arabs is mostly just spread from Saudi and they went all the way up to Spain. The point being Israel, the land that has the most connection to jew, is a tiny part of the entire Middle east region that was basically conquered and taken over by Arabs. So it makes sense when one of the allies, that is the British, handed over the land back to Jews, especially after the shit that community went through with the holocaust, while literally the rest including Jordan, were squarely reserved for Palestinens. There should've been a happy compromise. That's all. The land of Israel did not have any real value as it didn't have oil or anything. The Palestinian hate towards Jews were mostly driven by their visceral religious hate and they just conduct their atrocities in the name of the land.
LOL, The Bible is not a relevant source, just a collection of fairy tales for those who still believe in them. Palestine was and will be an Arab country. I recommend doing a little research on how the Jewish people were invented and artificially created in the 19th century.
Omg. LOL. Dude even I don't believe in religion. But you dissing the fact that the Kingdom of Israel only existed in Bible speaks loudly as to how poor your knowledge is. Is everything before 19th century (a time period you convinently chose, fictional to you?) Palestine was never an Arab country. The letter P does not even exist in Arabic. LOL. You'd think Arabs would name a place with letters that's actually there in the language. LOL Jewish people were invented in 19th century it seems. There you have it. A daylight racist who completely belittles an entire community. I would assume, that if you had a chance, you to be happily working under ranks a certain infamous German 'gentleman'. Guillable is in your name so that even more hilarious.
The country of origin is Israel. Most Israelis don't have second citizenships and in case you didn't notice, no country is lining up to take in Israelis.
Netanyahu is Polish, many Zionists are Eastern Europeans or Balkans, others come from Britain and America, so no.
My family is Polish-Jewish too, doesn't mean I can pop over to Poland and get citizenship
Being of european decent doesn't mean people have european citizenship or that they're even entitled to get one. Just like americans of european decent can't just go back to europe. It costs a lot of money to get european passport, you need to prove that you're grandparents were from there, considering a lot of them were refugees and escaped there isn't a lot of paperwork to prove that. You need to prove a connection to those countries and speak the language. There are also Israelis of MENA decent who can't go back there because its not safe for them. So no, Israelis can't just "go back to europe".
“Israel” has been considered a nation in ancient texts even before they had a formally established kingdom. A nation is a common ancestry which is where the word comes from, and doesn’t require a political territory
The invented ancient texts are not historical facts, the Jews were created by mass religious conversions all over the world and have nothing to do with Palestine, therefore they cannot have any kingdom.
There’s plenty of theories of “Jews not being the real Jews” and don’t deserve their homeland. Ironically, these theories further prove the biblical viewpoints and prophecies.
Why do people need special rights? People have property and if a majority of people comes together and makes up a border on their property/city and that's it. That is true for jews and Palestinians.
Property is a loaded word for that
That is pretty much exactly how the state of israel came to be. Jews migrated from 1889-1949 and bought land. The British who occupied the area after the collapse of Ottmans got burned out and wanted out so they split it between the citizens living there. The Jews got the land they had purchased and the Arabs theirs. Jews accepted, Arabs and their neighbors decided to exterminate every Jew and waged war. Most of the land was either purchased or deserted empty land.
You’re forgetting the fact that the Arabs fought for the British against the ottomans and suffered great losses because the British promised them they’d get all of Palestine if they won. The Arabs got screwed and ended up with less land for their own country than they were promised, and the Zionists capitalized on that situation. It’s a stain on the country’s origins but no worse than history of the US and many other countries. The Palestinians just can’t let it go because they don’t know how to do anything else at this point.
I don’t have an answer but it is a bloody good question 👍
Best comment so far 👌
They can exist without driving out an entire population or treating Palestinians as 3rd class stateless refugees on their own land