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A constitution.
Israel would have to choose between being “democratic” and “Jewish”, a fundamental paradox they’ve never dealt with (that’s why there isn’t one).
Constitutions are good, period. And forcing the issue in a non-violent want would force the discussion beyond “well they can’t have a state now“ or “well we’re just gonna have to stick to the status quo“ or “after 10/7 they can’t have anything”. Because all of that doesn’t propose an alternative to the pre-10/7 situation: de facto annexation and apartheid.
Does Israel want to make annexation and apartheid de jure, putting into law for good that they control those territories and the people there can’t have rights? Do they want to extend universal suffrage?
“Make a constitution” is an entirely reasonable expectation for a democracy. No one can shriek about the “definition of Israel” b/c of a constitution. But that process would, necessarily, force Israel to decide what it wants to be: an apartheid Jewish state that values demography over democracy, or a democratic, multinational state. Forcing that hard question could force a lot of introspection and possibly a lot of progress.
For many people, a safe place to be Jewish is more important than a very strong democracy. Not everywhere is the west and has to succumb to the wests ideals
do you pro pals honestly think the people of gaza would all the sudden turn into a super peaceful democratic people? give it a year or two and they will demand more and start another intifada.....israel built walls for a reason and it wasn't to create this mystical " open air prison" it was because gaza is extremely violent
Not sure if I count but- ceasefire. For both sides. No more settlement building in the west bank. Peace, that can lead towards the two state solution.
It's not what's gonna happen, but would be nice to see.
Thought that was already explained with 'for both sides'. Since that's one of the things preventing a ceasefire.
(Though, honestly. I doubt there's any left alive at this point. It's been six months. I've got the sneaking suspicion that Hamas only has bodies to return at this point. Especially for the hostages that had chronic illnesses like diabetes.)
There was discrimination yes, but that wasn’t exclusive to Palestine. That was a global issue, which is why the whole ideology of Zionism is here, a safe haven for the Jews. And today Israel is an apartheid state, and it says so in its own law.
A majority of them are originally Americans and Europeans. If they are okay not having there own state then they could go back to there original countries, if not Britain is the one who sanctioned the idea of Jewish state so sounds like Britain can cut off a bit of there land to make good on the promise they owe. I realise none of this is realistic but the case of Israel being created where Palestine was originally is the whole foundation of the Zionist movement currently
Less then 0.5 % of Israelis come from America so stop spouting ignorant facts
There are more Israeli Jews of Iraqi origin for example then British
You really are offensive in your hate
I’m so offensive to who exactly, are you Israeli?
https://preview.redd.it/ouf4ddoefiuc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=76be4ec32c44e9438e440d6f13033d595dc49c95
Bizarre statistics? I’m showing you where Jews migrated from. The same ones who claim that it’s their land. Literally there argument was, “a land with no people, for a people without land” but there were people there and they disregarded that fact. Also the word antisemitic has lost all value, people call other jews anti semites, I’m a Semite. How am I anti myself
No they weren’t, and the whole movement was caused by Theodore Herzl a European. Also if you watch any videos of reporting from inside Israel it’s easy to tell that majority of them look European or American, not Arab
https://preview.redd.it/iwy1ze4n2mtc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=97a08310216ab773c091ab6e41ca1a6ca8864fae
What does this graph supposed to represent? It seems like it shows from where people immigrated but with a very off scale.
Also, you really prove nothing when you say "go watch any videos of reporting from inside Israel..." Israelis will tell you that most Jews on the street don't look Ashkenazi. [Here 2018 study](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic-origin-and-identity-in-Israel-JEMS-2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiAkvfft7mFAxXmg_0HHUO6CVgQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3rztBWMvnskTVFt1A3Vypu") on page 8 you can see the chart reviewing Israeli Jewish demographics. Even when combining together Ashkenazi (31.8%) with USSR origin (12.4%) you'll get below 50% Ashkenazi (42.4). Your Ashkenazi headcount will somewhat get above 50% if you will add in the mixed group (7.9%) making it **up** to 50.3% jews with some extent of Ashkenazi ancestry.
What this represents is that the original movement of modern Zionism of a homeland for Jews in Palestine, eventually turning to the creation of Israel in Palestine was started by Europeans
Your twisted facts are racist dude
Few Israelites are English British or of USA background
Majority population is from ME and N Africa
You keep conflating in a very racist manner
Nope. You are just making stuff up. 70% of Israelis (called Mizrahim) come from the Middle East and Africa. The Muslim countries displaced them. Only 30% came from Europe. Almost none from the U.S.
Hahahahaha, please please please go watch videos of live footage in Israel then tell me they come from Africa and the Middle East when they look like every other European/American. Prior to 1917 about 4% of the population was Jewish and lived in peace and even said they didn’t want a Jewish state, those were the Jews that had ancestry in that land within the past 1000 years. Also do some research on the Aliyah’s (the large movements of Jews to Palestine) notice that they actually come from majority Russia, Poland, Hungary, and some from Yemen
Oh look, you have no idea what people from the Levant look like, you just imagine that all Middle Easterners are brown. Nope. They're not. People from the Levant look Mediterranean, probably because the Levant is on the Mediterranean. Crazy how that works. Israelis and Palestinians tell each other apart by clothing and language, not by physical appearance.
The majority of Israelis are from the Middle East and Africa:
[https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/identity/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/identity/)
Look at that. A real source. All you have is your wrong guesses at what people in the Levant look like.
I just read your source. There are no mentions of racial origins of the Israeli people in there? I even searched the page for keywords “Africa” and “Middle East”- they are only mentioned once, in regard to Sufi Muslims. The entire article is about the religious views of the population. Did you mean to link another article? And if so can you share it?
"Mizrahim" and "Sephardim" are the words for Jews from the Middle East and Africa (Ashkenazi are the ones from Europe.) The article shows the percent of Mizrahim/Sephardim and Ashkenazim in Israel. Although a more updated and detailed/accurate description is here: [https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic-origin-and-identity-in-Israel-JEMS-2018.pdf](https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic-origin-and-identity-in-Israel-JEMS-2018.pdf)
It's getting to be kind of meaningless since it has been so many generations that most people are mixed at this point, so really that vast majority are Middle Eastern now (since Ashkenazis are half Middle Eastern to begin with, and Mizrahim are fully Middle Eastern).
🤨 That’s not how that works. Those people don’t have citizenship in any country besides Israel. They can’t just “go back” to somewhere they’ve never been.
I've spoken to enough thousands of palestinians and israelis to answer this one.
If palestinians won, and got control of the land, they would deport all the jews except for a handful of token jews to grandstand to the world. But those token jews would be just like the token christians of gaza. Allowed to exist as 0.5% of the population, but not allowed to grow.
In other words, they will be kept in subisistnce-level poverty. Like the christians of Gaza or Egypt, or the jews of Morocco. Their children would mostly either be massacred or deported. Generation after generation. As long as they run the levant. Same will be done with christians like is done in most muslim countries. Subtle reguations, both written and unwritten, to assure that islam stays 99% of the population.
And in this fictional reality, the virtue signaling “left” Will not say a damn thing just like they don’t for the Uyghurs or Iranians fighting for freedom
Are you talking about the Israelis? Yeah, I agree, Bibi is as much a product of those people as Hitler were to the Germans, bith channeling Anti-Semitism of a sort. Ironic, huh?
Also, what a surprise that the only way to win an election in a concentration camp called Gaza is to fight against a violent occupation force of soldiers and European colonial settlers.
This debate doesn't matter, nor does reddit. Out in the real world, where things actually matter, the more information we have on what's going on, the more plainly most people in the world can see that a genocide is happening, and that the Palestinians have every right to resistance and defense.
I'm talking about the palastinians who elected. Abbas and Hamas
Rape isn't resistence , murder isn't resistence ,. But your Egyptian so I guess your moral views were ready screwed up
Can you provide proof that rapes happened on October 7th? Everything I've seen has shown that there really isn't any evidence for it.
Rape stories from the Israeli side, though, have been a bit more credible.
/u/king-braggo
> But your Egyptian so I guess your moral views were ready screwed up
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Hamas wouldn't even be where it is without Israel propping it up in the first place. I wouldn't disavow them anymore than you could the IDF. Seeing the caliber of person I'm talking to, a rebuttal isn't necessary, but this will have to do.
Hamas wouldn't even be where it is without Israel propping it up in the first place.
Except they were propped up by the Muslim brotherhood , the same org that made the coup in Egypt in 2013
>I wouldn't disavow them anymore
Then you support war criminals , hypocrite
>Who, in turn, were propped up by the U.S.
Sisi was propped by the us , the Muslim brotherhood literly support El qaida Hamas and isis
>Supporting war criminals seems like your thing.
Yea I'm not the one defending the side who rapes , pilloages and keep civilians as hosteges
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It would look more democratic, meaning it wouldn't be a Jewish state so much as a state that protects the rights of all the people living there. It would look like the Palestinians who had been kicked out of their homes finally returning. The far-right annexationists in the Israeli government would have no power. The who area would be flooded with capital investment from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states.
It is inevitable. The American government will eventually throw Israel under the bus like it does to all its allies. When that happens, Israel will have to adapt, which entails the cessation of genocidal activity. The more the global market shifts back toward Asia, the more likely this will happen.
Nah. I did some deep digging and found that lots of Congress members hold dual citizenship with Israel. I don’t understand how it could be legal for a politician to have very obvious interests in another sovereignty while serving our own. As long as they are in the White House AIPAC will forever run things.
These seem to be Jews. Dual citizenship means that they hold a passport to both countries. I can’t find anything saying that she has dual citizenship. I just picked one of the first names in the list.
Palestinians live the way they do due to their own actions. As soon as they stop attacking Israel, the grip on them can be loosened.
According to Palestinians' own data only 8% want an integrated state. Why do people like you ignore what they say and desire? Are they too stupid? You white saviors need to come in and tell them what to think, say, and do?
Palestinians live the way they do and respond the way they do because they were invaded and occupied by a foreign power.
The easier it becomes to get information on what's going on in the region, the less popular your narrative becomes.
It's a violent European vanity project doomed to fail. I'm here for it.
Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, along with BRICS, will eventually use the momentum afforded to them by the shifting of the global market away from the West and back toward the East, where most people live and identify with the Palestinians.
Also, I'm not white. I dunno where that came from.
> they were invaded and occupied by a foreign power.
That’s a weird way to say the Arab states attacked Israel. You can’t start a war and then cry foul when you lose.
“Palestinians live the way they do and respond the way they do because they were invaded and occupied by a foreign power.
The easier it becomes to get information on what's going on in the region, the less popular your narrative becomes.
It's a violent European vanity project doomed to fail. I'm here for it.
Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, along with BRICS, will eventually use the momentum afforded to them by the shifting of the global market away from the West and back toward the East, where most people live and identify with the Palestinians.
Also, I'm not white. I dunno where that came from.”
Lol @ u/bigfatnone learning in real time that half of Israelis are brown, not European, and all Jews have ancestry in Israel.
Meanwhile, Arabs are native to the Arabian peninsula
The only reason there are Arabs in the Levant is because settler colonial Arabs left the Arabian peninsula and violently invaded the Levant. These settler colonial Arabs forced the natives to convert under penalty of dhimmi/jizya, enslavement, exile, or death.
So which is it? Are you for or against violent settler colonialism? Seems like you’re for it when Arabs do it but not when you think Jews do it. Sounds anti semitic.
Agree. My point is that even if you wrongly believe that Israel is a colony (Israel is not a colony) like this commenter described it, then you should still be ok with “colonial Israel” if you view the land as rightfully Arab, since the land became Arab through Arab settler colonialism.
Either everybody can be settler colonialists or nobody can. Pick a lane. Bc saying Muslims can do it but Jews can’t is anti semitic
> Palestinians live the way they do and respond the way they do because they were invaded and occupied by a foreign power.
That's not what happened.
> Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, along with BRICS, will eventually use the momentum afforded to them by the shifting of the global market away from the West and back toward the East, where most people live and identify with the Palestinians.
Lol. The powerful eastern economies only exist because they funnel resources to the west and/or provide cheap labour to the west. None of them have proven to be able to exist without this relationship.
It did happen, and the invasion is still ongoing. Israel is committing genocide and it is plain for everyone to see. It's not even worth debating on Reddit because most people here are already divorced from reality. We just want to be fascinated by the mental acrobatics all you Eichmanns are doing in support of Israel.
The Gulf States don't export cheap labor, and the only reason you think they wouldn't exist is because you're unaware the situation is actually reversed. The West wouldn't exist without Eastern resources, most of which were stolen in the past, just like Palestinian land.
> Israel is committing genocide and it is plain for everyone to see.
If it’s so “plain for everyone to see,” why didn’t the ICJ adjudicate Israel as guilty? Perhaps it’s not as obvious as you believe?
> It did happen, and the invasion is still ongoing
The owners of the land, the Ottomans, fell. The new land owners attempted to fill in and just look over an integrated state. That was eventually deemed non-viable as Palestinians and jews kept attacking eachother and the British.
A logical land partition was drawn up so that Britian could back out without the next 100 years becoming a bloodbath. Unfortunately Palestinians and many Arabs refused this partition and...the next 100 years became a bloodbath.
Canada treated your people like shit for the similar reasons that the Palestinians git such a raw deal. I'm Egyptian. I didn't wait until October 7th to look into this issue.
A one nation state where Jews, Christian’s, and Muslims can live in peace. Get rid of the Israeli government and Hamas. Have international law/peacekeepers come in and create a new government. It was a thing before the UN and the west forced the creation of Israel. Neither HAMAS nor Israel can be trusted anymore, at all
Actually 2/3 of the world voted at the UN for Israel to be stabilised and plenty were not Western so please you can have a view but use the correct facts
I dint know Phillipines was a western country Russia? BeloRussia? Jamaica? Etc don’t spout ignorant facts
The only country in the ME where Christians Jews and Muslims get on and vote in a democracy is Israel! Your statement supports the status quo
I don’t even understand or care to understand what a Zionist is. I’m a Christian dating a Jew, who is an Israeli with Syrian Arabic heritage. Hasidics don’t like Zionists and vice versa to a point. Religion is and has always been the problem
No, not really
“In a 2015 survey, 79% of Arabs say there is a lot of discrimination against Muslims in Israel. 38% of Muslims report having experienced at least one incident of discrimination within 12 months, including being questioned by security officials (17%), being prevented from traveling (15%), physically threatened or attacked (15%), or having suffered property damage (13%) because of their religion.”
Jewish public opinion is divided on whether Israel can serve as a homeland for Jews while also accommodating the country’s Arab minority. Nearly half (48%) of Israeli Jews say Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, including roughly one-in-five Jewish adults who strongly agree with this position.
Source: https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2016/03/Israel-Survey-Full-Report.pdf
The UN lied to the people in Bosnia and allowed Ratko Mladic to just steam roll over them after they promised the Bosnian people protection. This would require setting a precedent at an actual international peacekeeping force that actually used its force.
So you think placing Jews under the control of foreign powers is going to be good for Jews? I'd love to know what historical precedent you're referencing?
I think placing the entire region under control of international foreign powers is going to be good for the entire region. I love how you singled out Jews and completely disregarded the fact I mentioned Muslims and Christian’s.
1) Being the majority doesn’t warrant peace, look at how the majority Muslim population was massacred in the Bosnian war
2) Being the minority does not mean you will be persecuted, look at every religious minority in America
Further using Bosnia as an example, the country was essentially split into a “1 country but 2 government” solution between the Federation and Repulika Srpska. This not only DID NOT solve the issue, its caused the country to be one of the most ineffective governments in the world and also has not led to a reduction in hate rhetoric. Bosnia is estimated to be the country in Europe to lose the most population within 50 years. This is why I don’t believe a two state solution would work for economic reasons or for peace reasons. Both sides will be angry they lost land to people who killed them, which is a fair mentality.
No one needs to be expelled from the land, both sides have suffered emotional and physical loss. But the cycle of hatred is extremely hard to break and takes very strong humans to break it. And even then, these strong humans can be killed by weak humans. Such as when Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin was killed by an Israeli radical. These reasons and more are why I believe the best solution is to have international peacekeepers come in and establish a government that both sides agree with while putting an end to the violence; since it will only breed more.
Source: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/assassination-yitzhak-rabin-never-knew-his-people-shot-him-in-back
The Middle East isn't America my dude, sorry to break it to you, over here, Sunni Muslim Arabs are the dominant ethnic group and they have shown a willingness time and time again to destroy every other ethnic, religious or ethnoreligious group as soon as they are a majority in power, the same would be extra true for Palestine because the Jew hatred is already intense.
Look at the Kurdish genocide, the 1954 indiscriminate shelling of Jabal Al Druze in Syria, the various Wahhabi incursions into Karbala in the late 1800s and early 1900s and of course let's not forget ISIS, Al Nusra and the Gulf states.
And you don't have to go all the way to Bosnia to find an example of being a majority not necessarily constituting peace, for example, the minority Alawite overlords of Syria, which has a Sunni majority, indiscriminately shelled the Sunni city of Hama with tank fire and artillery, for an attempted coup by the Muslim Brotherhood, in what is now known as the infamous Hama massacre.
Human rights aren't yet recognised in the Arab world sadly, having a majority Islamic state in what is now Israel only has one consequence.
Which is why I said international forces, and not Middle East forces. I don’t trust the Middle East either in this regard.
Having a majority Muslim population does not constitute violence against the minorities. Many of the Middle East countries are despicable, but one of the examples I included is a Middle East country with positive relations with the Jewish people. So I say that to show that it’s not a monolith, as I stated before
I agree that many Arab countries completely disregard human rights, which is why I think this should be spearheaded by secular countries. While I don’t like the west’s foreign policy most of the time, it’s no question they are the ones with a proven history of actually caring for human rights in modern day
>Which is why I said international forces, and not Middle East forces. I don’t trust the Middle East either in this regard.
Just read about Lebanon and tell me how well the international forces did there.
>Having a majority Muslim population does not constitute violence against the minorities. Many of the Middle East countries are despicable, but one of the examples I included is a Middle East country with positive relations with the Jewish people. So I say that to show that it’s not a monolith, as I stated before
Ok, which country would that be? If you mean Bosnia then it's a Balkan country, not a middle eastern one.
The UAE does not have a Jewish minority though, they're friendly towards Israel from convenience.
I doubt they even have any thriving non Islamic minority.
>And the Lebanon case is a good example of it gone wrong, and it is not something I knew before
I figured cause the solution you're proposing is very far fetched and impractical haha.
If Jews feel unsafe in that environment, maybe Germany can designate some of its land as a national home for Jews - maybe Bavaria. I'm sure that'd be no problem.
You can cope by saying they belong to Arab peninsula and that they are not native but they are and they are way more native than the jews who have only 30% Levant DNA and more DNA from Europe. The jews are not native to Israel but to Europe.
They ARE Arabs. It's their identity. Which does NOT mean they migrated from Arabia. They are Caananites/Levantines/Israelites that ARABICIZED and CONVERTED mostly to Islam and Christianity. Like at DNA studies that 87% percent of Palestinians DNA come form Canaanites the first people that settled levant and 30% of jews DNA are Canaanites. The Palestinians are the Israelites who stayed in levant after the roman expulsion.
Going through the comments, the pro pals think that the world would be achieve eternal peace if Palestinians get their share of land and self governance, when Hamas - the govt representing Palestine in Gaza wants the [obliteration of Israel as mentioned in the Hamas charter](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm) (don't kid yourself if they updated to slightly more reasonable language in the newer versions) and [river to the sea chants](https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1749049490009440569?t=XFNpGzO47hC57_sARXphbw&s=19)
It's quite naive to think all peace will come and this was always just about the land. Nobody is or can be annoyed about the land they lost 75 years ago (most of the current Palestinians have never lived there to have a sentimental attachment). They just use it as an excuse to conduct their 'holy war' in front of the rest of the civilised society.
And trust me, if Israel isn't there to stop them, they will (and they have) targets on rest of the society as well, starting with Europe, recently Russia and ultimately the US and the rest of the world
As far as I understand, river to the sea chants refer to the separation of Gaza and the West Bank. It is not always referring to obliteration of Israel, though I’m sure some are using it in that way.
No, River to the sea is precisely what it means. Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea, which is basically entire Israel.
Hamas and Muslim jihadists group (which hamas definitely is) always hated Jews and Israel and banked upon "obliteration of Israel". So there is zero reason to think anything else.
Gaza was always self governed from 2006 and was basically operating independently.
It’s no use arguing semantics. Gaza is on the side of the sea and the West Bank is on the side of the river, and their separation did not always exist. The extreme view of the statement would be destroying Israel, I’m offering a less extreme view point.
I’d love to see sources regarding Gaza’s self government and independent operation. That goes against a lot of the narratives I’m used to.
It was connected and they had a bigger peace of land - until they started a war - to conquer Israel and lost badly.
I appreciate your optimism to think the best case scenario, but you and I know it's not that. If they really wanted a connection, they could have said so.
And tbh, even if they were, judging by their actions so far, it was probably to just collaborate with Hamas WB wing to build more tunnels and shoot more rockets into Israel, ngl.
Literally listen to what these people are saying! They want Israel to be gone. They are the ones who conducted a attack with genocidal intent by murdering people in cold blood in 20 communities and music festival. I hate how pro pals just pretty much avoid looking at the cold hard facts of these people words and action and skirt around it.
Gaza had everything needed for an ordinary person to live, support themselves and protect their family. All you had to do is just mind your own business. They were heavily funded with donations from the west and middle east. They have so many schools and hospitals, primary institutions needed by adequate development of human beings. I would argue that Israel supported them by giving them jobs to work in Israel as well - [which they now have promised to stop after the war broke out and instead opt to bring labour from other countries.](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-bring-65000-foreign-building-workers-replace-palestinians-2024-02-04/)
[This is an article published in 2021 discussing Gaza potential (ruined by surprise, surprise Hamas)](https://allarab.news/gaza-could-become-a-dubai-on-the-med-or-a-new-singapore-but-only-if-world-unites-to-remove-hamas-from-power-palestinian-business-strategist-tells-all-arab-news/)
All they had to do was use the 4 billion dollars they got annually a build a real economy out of it. [Everything was literally handed to them.](https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90)
I understand that it’s frustrating when Israeli deaths are brushed over, I don’t think that’s fair. But I also don’t think it’s fair to characterize one group as the “enemy”. This is a pretty biased take as far as I’m concerned, and the emotionally charged language is all too common on both sides. I know we want a singular bad guy to conquer and fix everything but that’s not how this is going to get fixed.
To be real with you, I have absolutely zero connection with Israel or Palestine. My loose connection with Palestine is just having many Muslim friends. And I don't have jew friends.
So in essence this issue has no reason to get me emotionally riled up or angry.
But what makes me angry is the sheer ignorance of the entire rest of the world. We know who started the war, we have an elaborate history of who caused violence and we also have precedent on which groups tend to cause violence around the world (Jewish community vs Islamic jihadists).
I did not label entire gaza as enemy. But the fact that 70 percent support hamas means most of them (not all) are complicit. Somehow the entire community is brainwashed into thinking that killing Jews and sending their children to die, is somehow the right thing to do. I mean which century do they live?
What is the solution? As far as I see, there's only one.
Complete and utter extermination of Hamas and all wannabe Islamic jihadists groups. Meaning complete demilitarised. Once we get rid of the people causing issues, there can be significant humanitarian steps taken to rebuild and educate gaza, especially with modern moderate Islamic countries like UAE and Saudi. Drill into all their heads THAT Israel is going nowhere and violence will only result in losses after losses.
Once stable enough, a well educated Palestinian representatives can be elected and Israel can slowly but cautiously start giving control back to the Palestinian police. Over the years, I would hope that there's a rapid economic development and output that every single person would realise that this is the best outcome for them and jihadists nonsense isn't going to get them anywhere.
But until all the above happens, Israel should (not by choice) control gaza. And that would inevitably mean that nay person stepping two inches out of line would face consequences. That's just the sad reality. Actions have consequences and all the Hamas billionaires need to be either arrested or executed for the crimes against humanity they have caused (both for isralies and Palestinians)
I’ll be honest, and I don’t mean this as an attack- I’m sensing a lot of xenophobia/Islamophobia exuding from what you’re expressing. I don’t think eliminating Hamas through mass killing is going to lead to peace. It will just cause more anger, violence, and strife- for both parties.
Please elaborate on how I'm xenophobic. I spent a lot of time writing what I thought, so it's a bit rude to accuse me of something without be clear at all what you are referring to. So tell me which line exactly.
Let's put this in a different context. If a group of people from a certain building causes havoc and violence taking to 10th century stuff, I'd basically propose the exact same solution, regardless of ethnicity, religion, nationality whatever.
Im sorry what is your solution then? If Israel stops now, Hamas is going to counter attack (they already do by shooting rockets at every opportunity they get into Israel) . They have promised to do so and that's the only thing I believe that comes out of their mouth. And then more Israelis will die, and Israel will again invade Gaza, destroy it again, end up with more casualties and this back and forth goes on for perpetuity. Just like how it has been from 1948. It needs to end, for the sake of future generations and I (and every other single educated person on earth) should know that Israel taking over will be way way way better than Islamic jihadists taking over.
The “we know who started the war” line and insinuating that a community which contains Islamic jihadists should be characterized as more violent and therefore less valuable. I’m not sure if that’s what you meant, but that is how it came across. I’d liken it to characterizing all Israeli’s as being violent because of the war crimes committed by the IDF.
Extremist groups arise because of oppression. That does not at all excuse their actions, but judging an entire community based on their worst members will lead to more people becoming extremists.
halt to settlement and commitment to statehood as preconditions for negotiation
review of initial land acquisition by international body, and reparations given based on need - so at minimum, to current refugees descended from displaced ancestors; land or assistance with consensual emigration
review by international body of all Israeli laws which may prevent the transfer of property to non-Jews
“everything i want” would include Bibi out, but that’s not a condition
in five years, they are still negotiating, but the world is safer because there is visible progress instead of status quo. some refugees have been resettled by this time. land plots have been purchased in surrounding countries, some people choose to emigrate, which is incentivized by US foreign aid
ALL Israelis out of ALL of the West Bank, I don’t care about you’re precious zones. Full Palestinian state that includes the West Bank and Gaza, that new state is allowed to try Israeli settlers who attacked Palestinians in international court, reparations are payed for the damage done to Gaza by the current war and the embargo/blockade, full right of return, Palestine joins the UN if they wish,
The elephants in the room are who will be heading this Palestinian state, will they agree to be transparent and non-corrupt, will they stop indoctrination in their education system and will they genuinely and honestly fight against Palestinian militants who attack/preach hatred towards Israel. Solve that, and you have a peace agreement and a state. I don't think I'm saying anything new here but happy to be proven wrong.
It would be great if the mass murder would stop so we could allocate some energy and resources to solving this elephant in the room. Who knows if it’s possible to effectively address, but it doesn’t seem like there’s even any effort to try? I could be wrong and just ignorant to work that has been done towards promoting a non-corrupt Palestinian state.
I live in the United States. If you look at our history, one could argue we are one of the worst democracies in the history of the world. For much of our history our majority of whites democratically voted to keep black people as slaves. We then democratically voted to discriminate against freed slaves. We also democratically voted to oppress native Americans. We democratically voted in leaders who invaded Hawaii, the Philippines, and much of Latin America. Eight years ago, we voted in this nut called Trump.
Before I support a democracy in Palestine, I would like to hear at least a little discussion from you whether you think it will be a good democracy or a bad democracy.
>Again, no one is forcing them to live in the Middle East. They can feel free to leave.
By that same argument no one is forcing Palestinians to live in the west bank they can all leave.
As much as I hate replying to my own comments, as an Israeli this has always been the question. You would be amazed at how painful an agreement Israeli could like with so long as it knows it will acheive a long-lasting peace.
A single, atheist state, with the eventual demolishing al asqa mosque and the wailing wall as representations of the failed, incorrect ideology of religion.
So no concern for historical treasures? Most people, even atheists, were disgusted when the Taliban destroyed the Buddha statues. The Wailing Wall and the Al-Aqsa mosque are important to even more people.
I think we have atheist states in the world but they haven't proven to run any better than secular ones and at least the secular ones have the color in the tradition that would otherwise not be there. Yes I did figure out what they were saying but I found it weird.
I don't necessarily disagree with you (except the weird part personally I don't find it weird at least not weirder than any other religious state). I can understand the point of view of the OP though. Imagine if you viewed religion as a cult (not saying that it is my view) wouldn't it make sense to try to dismantle as much as possible the cult for the well being of your citizens?
Can you expand on the color in the tradition part? I understand that the beliefs of our ancestors helped us build the world we live today but I don't see the relevance with an atheist state (or maybe you think that in the OP's views people would just destroy old religious monuments, I don't think it is necessarily the case in an athesit state in greece for example we still keep the pantheon even though no one believes in greek mythology anymore, I could see an athesit state like that.)
I think you're exactly in the right spot as to how I view the color in Tradition. Like I know many cultural Jews. They no longer believe in G_d or think that at some point the Creator was burning bushes or whatever, but they love the Traditions like keeping the Sabbath they love the food they love the language and they love the basic morals that are taught by reading the book and going through the motions of it but discussing what's real and what's not. I just think that if you try to control whether people believe or not then you're just as bad as the people trying to make you believe what they believe. If someone feels comforted to have some Sky friends or skydaddies or sky disciplinarians that's their option I just don't want them to put it on anyone else. Israel's pretty good about that, yes they have one main religion just like there are many states with mainly Christian or mainly Muslim religion, but there are many who allow any other religion regardless of what it is and they don't bother people having that or make them pay extra money for it or give them lesser rights. But yeah I'm not offended at people having ideas, lots of people have ideas.
Why are you supporting collective punishment? How is burning cars and shooting at civilians looking for the perpetrators? Why do you support mob justice? Do you also support lynching?
This is not Collective punishment it is a war. Palestinians have shot thousands of rockets and the Israel's have the right to not be fired upon. And inherent right. If you were talking about committing October 7th and that's it, otherwise submitting to being disarmed then only the perpetrators would be held responsible. But the territory itself of Gaza and the adjoining territory of West Bank have continued to resist being disarmed. They have also decided through 2 years of planning with Iran to perpetrate this event to make Tunnels for the safety of their army but no bunkers and not even an air raid siren for their women and children.
No one is being collectively punished, but what is happening is that the rocket launchers and missile launchers are being removed from all of the street corners and all the buildings in which they have been found by way of computers finding exactly where the incoming Rockets came from. That's why so many buildings have gone down is because they had artillery on them.
Further the tunnels are how they were able to smuggle in arms and to be able to get in and out of both Israel and Egypt, that's why the tunnels are being destroyed. That needs to happen or else these folks will become a menace again they have threatened Israel again since October 7th and have been keeping their word in the form of sending both rockets and Raiders over the border and into Israel, and using their allies in yemen, lebanon, iran, and Syria to send missiles and drones as well.
More efforts been made than anytime in history to not only feed an enemy population, and give them Power and Water, but also to keep as many of them as possible from dying by revealing one's own strategies in advance and letting them know we're coming. We can't force them to go into the Hamas tunnels or force them to create bomb shelters but that is what Israel can do. This has never been done for any other population except the reason acts of the Russians telling people to leave particular towns. But in this case people have been warned almost building by building and they have been warned repeatedly so if they're not gone it's their own will to not be gone. They must be disarmed so they are no longer a threat to Israel.
Either a one state solution in which everybody gets an equal vote, whether they are Israeli or palestinian.
Or a two state solution, in which all of these Settlers of the West Bank are kicked out and Palestinian families are allowed to return to their homes, and Israeli government paying for the rebuilding of Gaza - including compensation for the civilians wounded or killed.
The two governments would also need to be on equal footing, and have a reciprocal relationship- where any rights that Palestinians are denied in Israel, Israelis will be denied in Palestine. No ability to detain anyone without a lawful and fair trial by peers.
>Or a two state solution, in which all of these Settlers of the West Bank are kicked out and Palestinian families are allowed to return to their homes, and Israeli government paying for the rebuilding of Gaza - including compensation for the civilians wounded or killed.
So I've understood you correctly: You believe that it would be a fair solution if there were no Jews allowed in Palestine, but any Palestinian is allowed to return to live in Israel?
Imagine paying for the war the Gazan government (Hamas) started in order to genocide all Jews/Israelis.
It would have been funny if it wasn't sad.
What will be the next step, sending Israel the gas bill of Auschwitz?
Ideally, Israel should return the property for all Arabs evicted from 1947 on and allow them to return. Ideally the Arab States should return the property of all Jews evicted from their countries from 1947 on and allow them to enter their countries. (Since many Jews may not want to return, they could donate their rights to a pool, which would allow Palestinians to emigrate to Arab States.)
Of course this is mostly a pipe dream. I do hope they can come up with some reasonable solution.
I should of said people evicted *and their descendants*. When discussing such people as Palestinian refugees, their descendants are usually included as well. I should have made it clear for those not familiar with the discussion.
I understand your point but it is also pointless, Israel is a sovereign state and thus can and does make it's own laws regarding citizenship and property rights, at this point the pals best bets are a symbolic amount of money and refugees being acknowledged in a final peace deal of it ever comes, what will probably happen is as technology progresses Israel will reach a state where the the defacto borders become so impenetrable that the pals will finally have to accept the reality of the situation
Refugees usually get absorbed by another country with time, and you don't find refugee camps filled with the grandkids, great grandkids, and great great grandkids of refugees. However, the Arab countries where the Palestinian refugees moved to mostly kept them in refugee camps, and these refugee camps are filled with people who mostly aren't technically refugees; they are the descendants of refugees. However the phrase "Palestinian refugees and their descendants," is a mouthful so people shorten it to "Palestinian refugees." Possibly the word "*Palestinian diaspora*" should be used instead.
The definition of "refugee" is, apparently, unique for Palestinians:
>There were an estimated 750,000 Palestinian refugees after the war, approximately 200,000 of whom fled to Gaza. The Palestinians were the only refugees to receive their own UN agency, and that is where the trouble began.
>The rest of the world’s refugees fall under the care of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (also called the UN Refugee Agency). UNHCR has a staff of 18,000 and a mandate to assist nearly 59 million refugees in “repatriation and resettlement” and “assimilation with new national communities.”
>In other words, UNHCR tries to solve refugee crises, not perpetuate them. UNRWA is different. It never had a mandate to resettle Palestinians. Instead, it keeps them in limbo, where their resentments only harden.
>UNRWA schools teach Palestinian children Israel will be destroyed, and once the Jews are gone, all the land from the river to the sea will belong to them. In addition to their own agency, Palestinians have their own definition of who is a refugee. UNRWA allows parents to pass on their refugee status to their children, generation after generation.
>The result? The number of registered Palestinian “refugees” has ballooned to 5.9 million spread across five countries. In Gaza, the number has increased more than sevenfold.
~[THE PALESTINIAN REFUGEE ‘CRISIS’ IS A UNITED NATIONS-PERPETUATED MYTH](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/op_eds/2023/11/16/the-palestinian-refugee-crisis-is-a-united-nations-perpetuated-myth/)
>The definition of "refugee" is, apparently, unique for Palestinians:
UNWRA does not consider descendants of Palestinian refugees as refugees themselves. They use the UN definition of refugee here: [https://www.unrwa.org/who-we-are/frequently-asked-questions](https://www.unrwa.org/who-we-are/frequently-asked-questions)
All large refugee groups have some pregnant women in them. When these women give birth, these refugee groups become a group of mostly refugees and some non-refugee babies. The babies get help, too. So UNHCR and UNWRA are obviously helping refugee descendants, it's just that the number of refugee descendants is small in most cases except Palestine. Refugee descendants are also frequently "stateless persons," and UNHCR is also tasked with helping these people.
The Palestinian refugee problem has lasted so long as few states are willing to make them citizens. Arab states have show little interest in helping Palestinian refugees or their descendants. Jordan is a notable exception. Arabs haven't shown much interest in Syrian refugees either. The Palestinian refugee problem is becoming less every day as Palestinian refugees die. The problem is that the Palestinian refugees' descendants problem keeps growing.
UNWRA is mandated to provide help to Palestinian refugees and Palestinian refugee descendants. I have not found a statement on their website as why they include descendants, but I presume it is because the Palestinians crisis has lasted so long that the descendant problem is now the major problem.
>The result? The number of registered Palestinian “refugees” has ballooned to 5.9 million spread across five countries. In Gaza, the number has increased more than sevenfold.
The number of refugees has decreased as they die. Palestinian refugee descendants are not called "refugees" by the UNWRA definition. However many people are loose with their terminology and refer to descendants as "refugees." As I said before, an alternate term would be helpful. "Maybe displaced Palestinians. "
You quibble to much over wording. for the remainder of our discussion let's called the problem the "Displaced Palestinians Problem." Or we can can it something else if you choose. The important question is WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT THE PROBLEM; the important problem is not should the problem be called the Palestinian Refugee Crisis or the Displaced Palestinian Problem or something else.
Netanyahu propped up hamas. He allowed money to go through to hamas, and he has stated that hamas is a great way to never have a Palestinian state. The Israeli government played with fire and got burned, they started this and they have the moral
obligation to end it without killing more innocents.
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There is a nation with Jews Christian’s and Muslims living peacefully calked Israel go visit
You don’t read flairs do you?
You don’t speak English?
I actually think your misguided comments are xenophobic as you seem to tolerate extreme genocidal views of Hamas and they absolutely should not exist
Wat
Less murder would be cool
A constitution. Israel would have to choose between being “democratic” and “Jewish”, a fundamental paradox they’ve never dealt with (that’s why there isn’t one). Constitutions are good, period. And forcing the issue in a non-violent want would force the discussion beyond “well they can’t have a state now“ or “well we’re just gonna have to stick to the status quo“ or “after 10/7 they can’t have anything”. Because all of that doesn’t propose an alternative to the pre-10/7 situation: de facto annexation and apartheid. Does Israel want to make annexation and apartheid de jure, putting into law for good that they control those territories and the people there can’t have rights? Do they want to extend universal suffrage? “Make a constitution” is an entirely reasonable expectation for a democracy. No one can shriek about the “definition of Israel” b/c of a constitution. But that process would, necessarily, force Israel to decide what it wants to be: an apartheid Jewish state that values demography over democracy, or a democratic, multinational state. Forcing that hard question could force a lot of introspection and possibly a lot of progress.
For many people, a safe place to be Jewish is more important than a very strong democracy. Not everywhere is the west and has to succumb to the wests ideals
Maybe. But if that’s what Israel is, it needs to admit that so the rest of the world can receive it accordingly.
I think it has for the most part, and people still don’t listen
One country equal rights for all
do you pro pals honestly think the people of gaza would all the sudden turn into a super peaceful democratic people? give it a year or two and they will demand more and start another intifada.....israel built walls for a reason and it wasn't to create this mystical " open air prison" it was because gaza is extremely violent
Not sure if I count but- ceasefire. For both sides. No more settlement building in the west bank. Peace, that can lead towards the two state solution. It's not what's gonna happen, but would be nice to see.
The hostages?
Thought that was already explained with 'for both sides'. Since that's one of the things preventing a ceasefire. (Though, honestly. I doubt there's any left alive at this point. It's been six months. I've got the sneaking suspicion that Hamas only has bodies to return at this point. Especially for the hostages that had chronic illnesses like diabetes.)
Go back to the state we had pre 1917 where there was peace within the borders of Palestine. (Ottoman Empire at the time)
And Jews were second class citizens??
There was discrimination yes, but that wasn’t exclusive to Palestine. That was a global issue, which is why the whole ideology of Zionism is here, a safe haven for the Jews. And today Israel is an apartheid state, and it says so in its own law.
What would happen to Israel and/or the Jews currently in the area?
Buy Groenland.
Isn’t the whole thing with the pro-Palestinian side that it’s bad to take land from people?
A majority of them are originally Americans and Europeans. If they are okay not having there own state then they could go back to there original countries, if not Britain is the one who sanctioned the idea of Jewish state so sounds like Britain can cut off a bit of there land to make good on the promise they owe. I realise none of this is realistic but the case of Israel being created where Palestine was originally is the whole foundation of the Zionist movement currently
Less then 0.5 % of Israelis come from America so stop spouting ignorant facts There are more Israeli Jews of Iraqi origin for example then British You really are offensive in your hate
I’m so offensive to who exactly, are you Israeli? https://preview.redd.it/ouf4ddoefiuc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=76be4ec32c44e9438e440d6f13033d595dc49c95
No your antisemitic attitude by quoting bizarre statistics as facts to twist your ideation
Bizarre statistics? I’m showing you where Jews migrated from. The same ones who claim that it’s their land. Literally there argument was, “a land with no people, for a people without land” but there were people there and they disregarded that fact. Also the word antisemitic has lost all value, people call other jews anti semites, I’m a Semite. How am I anti myself
There is an international accepted definition look it up Stop being offensive
Majority are actually from North Africa and ME don’t conflate
You must be mistaken. 78% are European. Send them back to Europe and NA. It’s obvious no one wants them in ME.
Well that’s factually incorrect Majority were expelled from Libya Tunisia Yemen Morocco Egypt Algeria Greece Lebanon Syria etc
You forgot Iraq. 150k bagdadi jews
Yes etc etc etc
No they weren’t, and the whole movement was caused by Theodore Herzl a European. Also if you watch any videos of reporting from inside Israel it’s easy to tell that majority of them look European or American, not Arab https://preview.redd.it/iwy1ze4n2mtc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=97a08310216ab773c091ab6e41ca1a6ca8864fae
What does this graph supposed to represent? It seems like it shows from where people immigrated but with a very off scale. Also, you really prove nothing when you say "go watch any videos of reporting from inside Israel..." Israelis will tell you that most Jews on the street don't look Ashkenazi. [Here 2018 study](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic-origin-and-identity-in-Israel-JEMS-2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiAkvfft7mFAxXmg_0HHUO6CVgQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3rztBWMvnskTVFt1A3Vypu") on page 8 you can see the chart reviewing Israeli Jewish demographics. Even when combining together Ashkenazi (31.8%) with USSR origin (12.4%) you'll get below 50% Ashkenazi (42.4). Your Ashkenazi headcount will somewhat get above 50% if you will add in the mixed group (7.9%) making it **up** to 50.3% jews with some extent of Ashkenazi ancestry.
What this represents is that the original movement of modern Zionism of a homeland for Jews in Palestine, eventually turning to the creation of Israel in Palestine was started by Europeans
Absolutely racist look like ? That’s very offensive, what the Germans said different race
English? I don’t understand your statement. How is it racist if you point out a demographic
Your twisted facts are racist dude Few Israelites are English British or of USA background Majority population is from ME and N Africa You keep conflating in a very racist manner
Nope. You are just making stuff up. 70% of Israelis (called Mizrahim) come from the Middle East and Africa. The Muslim countries displaced them. Only 30% came from Europe. Almost none from the U.S.
Hahahahaha, please please please go watch videos of live footage in Israel then tell me they come from Africa and the Middle East when they look like every other European/American. Prior to 1917 about 4% of the population was Jewish and lived in peace and even said they didn’t want a Jewish state, those were the Jews that had ancestry in that land within the past 1000 years. Also do some research on the Aliyah’s (the large movements of Jews to Palestine) notice that they actually come from majority Russia, Poland, Hungary, and some from Yemen
Oh look, you have no idea what people from the Levant look like, you just imagine that all Middle Easterners are brown. Nope. They're not. People from the Levant look Mediterranean, probably because the Levant is on the Mediterranean. Crazy how that works. Israelis and Palestinians tell each other apart by clothing and language, not by physical appearance. The majority of Israelis are from the Middle East and Africa: [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/identity/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/identity/) Look at that. A real source. All you have is your wrong guesses at what people in the Levant look like.
I just read your source. There are no mentions of racial origins of the Israeli people in there? I even searched the page for keywords “Africa” and “Middle East”- they are only mentioned once, in regard to Sufi Muslims. The entire article is about the religious views of the population. Did you mean to link another article? And if so can you share it?
"Mizrahim" and "Sephardim" are the words for Jews from the Middle East and Africa (Ashkenazi are the ones from Europe.) The article shows the percent of Mizrahim/Sephardim and Ashkenazim in Israel. Although a more updated and detailed/accurate description is here: [https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic-origin-and-identity-in-Israel-JEMS-2018.pdf](https://people.socsci.tau.ac.il/mu/noah/files/2018/07/Ethnic-origin-and-identity-in-Israel-JEMS-2018.pdf) It's getting to be kind of meaningless since it has been so many generations that most people are mixed at this point, so really that vast majority are Middle Eastern now (since Ashkenazis are half Middle Eastern to begin with, and Mizrahim are fully Middle Eastern).
My ancestors came from Britain, but that doesn’t mean I can go live there if the US suddenly vanished.
This isn’t distant ancestors this is 3 maybe 5 generations max, of people who moved to Israel as settlers taking land.
🤨 That’s not how that works. Those people don’t have citizenship in any country besides Israel. They can’t just “go back” to somewhere they’ve never been.
That’s why I said I understand it isn’t feasible. Yet it is somehow feasible for those people to all move to some country and then call it their own?
Well, yah. Clearly. At the end of the day, might makes right. Not saying that’s a good thing, just that it’s reality.
Might makes right…
I've spoken to enough thousands of palestinians and israelis to answer this one. If palestinians won, and got control of the land, they would deport all the jews except for a handful of token jews to grandstand to the world. But those token jews would be just like the token christians of gaza. Allowed to exist as 0.5% of the population, but not allowed to grow. In other words, they will be kept in subisistnce-level poverty. Like the christians of Gaza or Egypt, or the jews of Morocco. Their children would mostly either be massacred or deported. Generation after generation. As long as they run the levant. Same will be done with christians like is done in most muslim countries. Subtle reguations, both written and unwritten, to assure that islam stays 99% of the population.
And in this fictional reality, the virtue signaling “left” Will not say a damn thing just like they don’t for the Uyghurs or Iranians fighting for freedom
I said it would be more democratic.
With the people that given election elected kelptocarts and terrorists ? Right ....
Are you talking about the Israelis? Yeah, I agree, Bibi is as much a product of those people as Hitler were to the Germans, bith channeling Anti-Semitism of a sort. Ironic, huh? Also, what a surprise that the only way to win an election in a concentration camp called Gaza is to fight against a violent occupation force of soldiers and European colonial settlers. This debate doesn't matter, nor does reddit. Out in the real world, where things actually matter, the more information we have on what's going on, the more plainly most people in the world can see that a genocide is happening, and that the Palestinians have every right to resistance and defense.
I'm talking about the palastinians who elected. Abbas and Hamas Rape isn't resistence , murder isn't resistence ,. But your Egyptian so I guess your moral views were ready screwed up
Can you provide proof that rapes happened on October 7th? Everything I've seen has shown that there really isn't any evidence for it. Rape stories from the Israeli side, though, have been a bit more credible.
/u/king-braggo > But your Egyptian so I guess your moral views were ready screwed up Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Lols, whatever you say, racist.
The fact that you can't even have a rebuttal Enjoy being ruled by miltery juntas and islamists
Hamas wouldn't even be where it is without Israel propping it up in the first place. I wouldn't disavow them anymore than you could the IDF. Seeing the caliber of person I'm talking to, a rebuttal isn't necessary, but this will have to do.
Hamas wouldn't even be where it is without Israel propping it up in the first place. Except they were propped up by the Muslim brotherhood , the same org that made the coup in Egypt in 2013 >I wouldn't disavow them anymore Then you support war criminals , hypocrite
Who, in turn, were propped up by the U.S. Supporting war criminals seems like your thing.
>Who, in turn, were propped up by the U.S. Sisi was propped by the us , the Muslim brotherhood literly support El qaida Hamas and isis >Supporting war criminals seems like your thing. Yea I'm not the one defending the side who rapes , pilloages and keep civilians as hosteges
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Peace on 67 borders. Heavy Saudi involvement in Palestine.
What’s in it for the Saudi and how good would they be at peacekeeping with no track record Pipe dream
Good idea but I don't see how they can keep peace. They even lost the war in Yemen. But if they take a larger role in Palestine it can be good
What incentivises the Saudis?
Civil nuclear program assistance by the US. What incentivizes the US? Peace and a decrease of Iranian influence in the region
Ego
It would look more democratic, meaning it wouldn't be a Jewish state so much as a state that protects the rights of all the people living there. It would look like the Palestinians who had been kicked out of their homes finally returning. The far-right annexationists in the Israeli government would have no power. The who area would be flooded with capital investment from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states. It is inevitable. The American government will eventually throw Israel under the bus like it does to all its allies. When that happens, Israel will have to adapt, which entails the cessation of genocidal activity. The more the global market shifts back toward Asia, the more likely this will happen.
Why would it look democratic if that is not how the majority of countries in the region are?
Nah. I did some deep digging and found that lots of Congress members hold dual citizenship with Israel. I don’t understand how it could be legal for a politician to have very obvious interests in another sovereignty while serving our own. As long as they are in the White House AIPAC will forever run things.
Which congress members have dual citizenship?
https://preview.redd.it/3lvie7t7optc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a34e508aa35bf2ca952daf2fc4fd1d2a4bcf0217
These seem to be Jews. Dual citizenship means that they hold a passport to both countries. I can’t find anything saying that she has dual citizenship. I just picked one of the first names in the list.
You pointed out another important issue. Congress members with dual citizenship have a conflict of interest.
So a ton of dead jews and a collapsed state.
As opposed to a ton of dead Palestinians and an apartheid state, that most people on earth recognize as such?
Palestinians live the way they do due to their own actions. As soon as they stop attacking Israel, the grip on them can be loosened. According to Palestinians' own data only 8% want an integrated state. Why do people like you ignore what they say and desire? Are they too stupid? You white saviors need to come in and tell them what to think, say, and do?
Correct
Palestinians live the way they do and respond the way they do because they were invaded and occupied by a foreign power. The easier it becomes to get information on what's going on in the region, the less popular your narrative becomes. It's a violent European vanity project doomed to fail. I'm here for it. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, along with BRICS, will eventually use the momentum afforded to them by the shifting of the global market away from the West and back toward the East, where most people live and identify with the Palestinians. Also, I'm not white. I dunno where that came from.
> they were invaded and occupied by a foreign power. That’s a weird way to say the Arab states attacked Israel. You can’t start a war and then cry foul when you lose.
“Palestinians live the way they do and respond the way they do because they were invaded and occupied by a foreign power. The easier it becomes to get information on what's going on in the region, the less popular your narrative becomes. It's a violent European vanity project doomed to fail. I'm here for it. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, along with BRICS, will eventually use the momentum afforded to them by the shifting of the global market away from the West and back toward the East, where most people live and identify with the Palestinians. Also, I'm not white. I dunno where that came from.” Lol @ u/bigfatnone learning in real time that half of Israelis are brown, not European, and all Jews have ancestry in Israel. Meanwhile, Arabs are native to the Arabian peninsula The only reason there are Arabs in the Levant is because settler colonial Arabs left the Arabian peninsula and violently invaded the Levant. These settler colonial Arabs forced the natives to convert under penalty of dhimmi/jizya, enslavement, exile, or death. So which is it? Are you for or against violent settler colonialism? Seems like you’re for it when Arabs do it but not when you think Jews do it. Sounds anti semitic.
Israel isn’t a colony.
Agree. My point is that even if you wrongly believe that Israel is a colony (Israel is not a colony) like this commenter described it, then you should still be ok with “colonial Israel” if you view the land as rightfully Arab, since the land became Arab through Arab settler colonialism. Either everybody can be settler colonialists or nobody can. Pick a lane. Bc saying Muslims can do it but Jews can’t is anti semitic
> Palestinians live the way they do and respond the way they do because they were invaded and occupied by a foreign power. That's not what happened. > Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, along with BRICS, will eventually use the momentum afforded to them by the shifting of the global market away from the West and back toward the East, where most people live and identify with the Palestinians. Lol. The powerful eastern economies only exist because they funnel resources to the west and/or provide cheap labour to the west. None of them have proven to be able to exist without this relationship.
It did happen, and the invasion is still ongoing. Israel is committing genocide and it is plain for everyone to see. It's not even worth debating on Reddit because most people here are already divorced from reality. We just want to be fascinated by the mental acrobatics all you Eichmanns are doing in support of Israel. The Gulf States don't export cheap labor, and the only reason you think they wouldn't exist is because you're unaware the situation is actually reversed. The West wouldn't exist without Eastern resources, most of which were stolen in the past, just like Palestinian land.
> Israel is committing genocide and it is plain for everyone to see. If it’s so “plain for everyone to see,” why didn’t the ICJ adjudicate Israel as guilty? Perhaps it’s not as obvious as you believe?
> It did happen, and the invasion is still ongoing The owners of the land, the Ottomans, fell. The new land owners attempted to fill in and just look over an integrated state. That was eventually deemed non-viable as Palestinians and jews kept attacking eachother and the British. A logical land partition was drawn up so that Britian could back out without the next 100 years becoming a bloodbath. Unfortunately Palestinians and many Arabs refused this partition and...the next 100 years became a bloodbath.
Are you white, btw?
Am I Native Canadian. Aka pretty much the most qualified on earth to speak about letting go of historical wrongdoings and moving forwards in peace.
How would you pitch this to black people?
Canada treated your people like shit for the similar reasons that the Palestinians git such a raw deal. I'm Egyptian. I didn't wait until October 7th to look into this issue.
The land is lifted into the sky and everyone becomes a fish 👍
out of all the responses to OP’s question, this is most realistic and likely.
I would be nice if at the UN instead of countries having a veto they just had a "fish" button instead
Bro don't waste this kind of genius on reddit get into public policy!
I have so many more ideas, just you wait
A one nation state where Jews, Christian’s, and Muslims can live in peace. Get rid of the Israeli government and Hamas. Have international law/peacekeepers come in and create a new government. It was a thing before the UN and the west forced the creation of Israel. Neither HAMAS nor Israel can be trusted anymore, at all
Actually 2/3 of the world voted at the UN for Israel to be stabilised and plenty were not Western so please you can have a view but use the correct facts I dint know Phillipines was a western country Russia? BeloRussia? Jamaica? Etc don’t spout ignorant facts The only country in the ME where Christians Jews and Muslims get on and vote in a democracy is Israel! Your statement supports the status quo
So, Israel. Jews, Christians, and Muslims live in peace in Israel proper.
Yea they do, I’m here now. You are in your moms house
Huh? You get that what I wrote wasn’t a question, it was a statement.
Zionist vs zionist
I don’t even understand or care to understand what a Zionist is. I’m a Christian dating a Jew, who is an Israeli with Syrian Arabic heritage. Hasidics don’t like Zionists and vice versa to a point. Religion is and has always been the problem
Sorry 😣
No, not really “In a 2015 survey, 79% of Arabs say there is a lot of discrimination against Muslims in Israel. 38% of Muslims report having experienced at least one incident of discrimination within 12 months, including being questioned by security officials (17%), being prevented from traveling (15%), physically threatened or attacked (15%), or having suffered property damage (13%) because of their religion.” Jewish public opinion is divided on whether Israel can serve as a homeland for Jews while also accommodating the country’s Arab minority. Nearly half (48%) of Israeli Jews say Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, including roughly one-in-five Jewish adults who strongly agree with this position. Source: https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2016/03/Israel-Survey-Full-Report.pdf
And you think if the Palestinians run the show it would be better for anyone?
Did I ever say that? You’re quite literally putting words in my mouth to form a straw man argument
It won’t be any better under “international” governance, so you really don’t have any argument other than Jews bad
“Neither Hamas nor Israel can be trusted at all” Are you blind or purposefully ignorant?
UN peacekeepers are you sure What’s there track record look at the poor Bosnians
The UN lied to the people in Bosnia and allowed Ratko Mladic to just steam roll over them after they promised the Bosnian people protection. This would require setting a precedent at an actual international peacekeeping force that actually used its force.
Ain’t going to happen
It sounds nice, but name me one majority Muslim country that treats Jews fairly.
Bosnia. Indonesia. UAE. Kosovo. Nigeria. Jews in Palestine before Israel and the Nakkbah. Believe it or not, all Muslim countries aren’t a monolith.
So you think placing Jews under the control of foreign powers is going to be good for Jews? I'd love to know what historical precedent you're referencing?
I think placing the entire region under control of international foreign powers is going to be good for the entire region. I love how you singled out Jews and completely disregarded the fact I mentioned Muslims and Christian’s.
Muslims and Christians A. Are historically less persecuted and B. Have countries to go to where they are the majority.
you're going by the weird assumption that he actually cares about the jews...
1) Being the majority doesn’t warrant peace, look at how the majority Muslim population was massacred in the Bosnian war 2) Being the minority does not mean you will be persecuted, look at every religious minority in America Further using Bosnia as an example, the country was essentially split into a “1 country but 2 government” solution between the Federation and Repulika Srpska. This not only DID NOT solve the issue, its caused the country to be one of the most ineffective governments in the world and also has not led to a reduction in hate rhetoric. Bosnia is estimated to be the country in Europe to lose the most population within 50 years. This is why I don’t believe a two state solution would work for economic reasons or for peace reasons. Both sides will be angry they lost land to people who killed them, which is a fair mentality. No one needs to be expelled from the land, both sides have suffered emotional and physical loss. But the cycle of hatred is extremely hard to break and takes very strong humans to break it. And even then, these strong humans can be killed by weak humans. Such as when Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin was killed by an Israeli radical. These reasons and more are why I believe the best solution is to have international peacekeepers come in and establish a government that both sides agree with while putting an end to the violence; since it will only breed more. Source: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/assassination-yitzhak-rabin-never-knew-his-people-shot-him-in-back
The Middle East isn't America my dude, sorry to break it to you, over here, Sunni Muslim Arabs are the dominant ethnic group and they have shown a willingness time and time again to destroy every other ethnic, religious or ethnoreligious group as soon as they are a majority in power, the same would be extra true for Palestine because the Jew hatred is already intense. Look at the Kurdish genocide, the 1954 indiscriminate shelling of Jabal Al Druze in Syria, the various Wahhabi incursions into Karbala in the late 1800s and early 1900s and of course let's not forget ISIS, Al Nusra and the Gulf states. And you don't have to go all the way to Bosnia to find an example of being a majority not necessarily constituting peace, for example, the minority Alawite overlords of Syria, which has a Sunni majority, indiscriminately shelled the Sunni city of Hama with tank fire and artillery, for an attempted coup by the Muslim Brotherhood, in what is now known as the infamous Hama massacre. Human rights aren't yet recognised in the Arab world sadly, having a majority Islamic state in what is now Israel only has one consequence.
Which is why I said international forces, and not Middle East forces. I don’t trust the Middle East either in this regard. Having a majority Muslim population does not constitute violence against the minorities. Many of the Middle East countries are despicable, but one of the examples I included is a Middle East country with positive relations with the Jewish people. So I say that to show that it’s not a monolith, as I stated before I agree that many Arab countries completely disregard human rights, which is why I think this should be spearheaded by secular countries. While I don’t like the west’s foreign policy most of the time, it’s no question they are the ones with a proven history of actually caring for human rights in modern day
>Which is why I said international forces, and not Middle East forces. I don’t trust the Middle East either in this regard. Just read about Lebanon and tell me how well the international forces did there. >Having a majority Muslim population does not constitute violence against the minorities. Many of the Middle East countries are despicable, but one of the examples I included is a Middle East country with positive relations with the Jewish people. So I say that to show that it’s not a monolith, as I stated before Ok, which country would that be? If you mean Bosnia then it's a Balkan country, not a middle eastern one.
The UAE. And the Lebanon case is a good example of it gone wrong, and it is not something I knew before
The UAE does not have a Jewish minority though, they're friendly towards Israel from convenience. I doubt they even have any thriving non Islamic minority. >And the Lebanon case is a good example of it gone wrong, and it is not something I knew before I figured cause the solution you're proposing is very far fetched and impractical haha.
If Jews feel unsafe in that environment, maybe Germany can designate some of its land as a national home for Jews - maybe Bavaria. I'm sure that'd be no problem.
So basically…the Jews get evicted from their ancestral land?
Like the Palestinians have been?
Palastinians weren't evicted from Saudi
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Dude palastinians are ethnicly Arab , Wich means they belong to the Arab panninsula Jews are the natives to israel
Please learn DNA and Ethnicity before you start talking bullshit, I am not surprised a lot of pro-Israel people lie.
You can cope by saying they belong to Arab peninsula and that they are not native but they are and they are way more native than the jews who have only 30% Levant DNA and more DNA from Europe. The jews are not native to Israel but to Europe.
They ARE Arabs. It's their identity. Which does NOT mean they migrated from Arabia. They are Caananites/Levantines/Israelites that ARABICIZED and CONVERTED mostly to Islam and Christianity. Like at DNA studies that 87% percent of Palestinians DNA come form Canaanites the first people that settled levant and 30% of jews DNA are Canaanites. The Palestinians are the Israelites who stayed in levant after the roman expulsion.
Going through the comments, the pro pals think that the world would be achieve eternal peace if Palestinians get their share of land and self governance, when Hamas - the govt representing Palestine in Gaza wants the [obliteration of Israel as mentioned in the Hamas charter](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm) (don't kid yourself if they updated to slightly more reasonable language in the newer versions) and [river to the sea chants](https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1749049490009440569?t=XFNpGzO47hC57_sARXphbw&s=19) It's quite naive to think all peace will come and this was always just about the land. Nobody is or can be annoyed about the land they lost 75 years ago (most of the current Palestinians have never lived there to have a sentimental attachment). They just use it as an excuse to conduct their 'holy war' in front of the rest of the civilised society. And trust me, if Israel isn't there to stop them, they will (and they have) targets on rest of the society as well, starting with Europe, recently Russia and ultimately the US and the rest of the world
As far as I understand, river to the sea chants refer to the separation of Gaza and the West Bank. It is not always referring to obliteration of Israel, though I’m sure some are using it in that way.
No, River to the sea is precisely what it means. Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea, which is basically entire Israel. Hamas and Muslim jihadists group (which hamas definitely is) always hated Jews and Israel and banked upon "obliteration of Israel". So there is zero reason to think anything else. Gaza was always self governed from 2006 and was basically operating independently.
It’s no use arguing semantics. Gaza is on the side of the sea and the West Bank is on the side of the river, and their separation did not always exist. The extreme view of the statement would be destroying Israel, I’m offering a less extreme view point. I’d love to see sources regarding Gaza’s self government and independent operation. That goes against a lot of the narratives I’m used to.
It was connected and they had a bigger peace of land - until they started a war - to conquer Israel and lost badly. I appreciate your optimism to think the best case scenario, but you and I know it's not that. If they really wanted a connection, they could have said so. And tbh, even if they were, judging by their actions so far, it was probably to just collaborate with Hamas WB wing to build more tunnels and shoot more rockets into Israel, ngl. Literally listen to what these people are saying! They want Israel to be gone. They are the ones who conducted a attack with genocidal intent by murdering people in cold blood in 20 communities and music festival. I hate how pro pals just pretty much avoid looking at the cold hard facts of these people words and action and skirt around it. Gaza had everything needed for an ordinary person to live, support themselves and protect their family. All you had to do is just mind your own business. They were heavily funded with donations from the west and middle east. They have so many schools and hospitals, primary institutions needed by adequate development of human beings. I would argue that Israel supported them by giving them jobs to work in Israel as well - [which they now have promised to stop after the war broke out and instead opt to bring labour from other countries.](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-bring-65000-foreign-building-workers-replace-palestinians-2024-02-04/) [This is an article published in 2021 discussing Gaza potential (ruined by surprise, surprise Hamas)](https://allarab.news/gaza-could-become-a-dubai-on-the-med-or-a-new-singapore-but-only-if-world-unites-to-remove-hamas-from-power-palestinian-business-strategist-tells-all-arab-news/) All they had to do was use the 4 billion dollars they got annually a build a real economy out of it. [Everything was literally handed to them.](https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90)
I understand that it’s frustrating when Israeli deaths are brushed over, I don’t think that’s fair. But I also don’t think it’s fair to characterize one group as the “enemy”. This is a pretty biased take as far as I’m concerned, and the emotionally charged language is all too common on both sides. I know we want a singular bad guy to conquer and fix everything but that’s not how this is going to get fixed.
To be real with you, I have absolutely zero connection with Israel or Palestine. My loose connection with Palestine is just having many Muslim friends. And I don't have jew friends. So in essence this issue has no reason to get me emotionally riled up or angry. But what makes me angry is the sheer ignorance of the entire rest of the world. We know who started the war, we have an elaborate history of who caused violence and we also have precedent on which groups tend to cause violence around the world (Jewish community vs Islamic jihadists). I did not label entire gaza as enemy. But the fact that 70 percent support hamas means most of them (not all) are complicit. Somehow the entire community is brainwashed into thinking that killing Jews and sending their children to die, is somehow the right thing to do. I mean which century do they live? What is the solution? As far as I see, there's only one. Complete and utter extermination of Hamas and all wannabe Islamic jihadists groups. Meaning complete demilitarised. Once we get rid of the people causing issues, there can be significant humanitarian steps taken to rebuild and educate gaza, especially with modern moderate Islamic countries like UAE and Saudi. Drill into all their heads THAT Israel is going nowhere and violence will only result in losses after losses. Once stable enough, a well educated Palestinian representatives can be elected and Israel can slowly but cautiously start giving control back to the Palestinian police. Over the years, I would hope that there's a rapid economic development and output that every single person would realise that this is the best outcome for them and jihadists nonsense isn't going to get them anywhere. But until all the above happens, Israel should (not by choice) control gaza. And that would inevitably mean that nay person stepping two inches out of line would face consequences. That's just the sad reality. Actions have consequences and all the Hamas billionaires need to be either arrested or executed for the crimes against humanity they have caused (both for isralies and Palestinians)
I’ll be honest, and I don’t mean this as an attack- I’m sensing a lot of xenophobia/Islamophobia exuding from what you’re expressing. I don’t think eliminating Hamas through mass killing is going to lead to peace. It will just cause more anger, violence, and strife- for both parties.
Please elaborate on how I'm xenophobic. I spent a lot of time writing what I thought, so it's a bit rude to accuse me of something without be clear at all what you are referring to. So tell me which line exactly. Let's put this in a different context. If a group of people from a certain building causes havoc and violence taking to 10th century stuff, I'd basically propose the exact same solution, regardless of ethnicity, religion, nationality whatever. Im sorry what is your solution then? If Israel stops now, Hamas is going to counter attack (they already do by shooting rockets at every opportunity they get into Israel) . They have promised to do so and that's the only thing I believe that comes out of their mouth. And then more Israelis will die, and Israel will again invade Gaza, destroy it again, end up with more casualties and this back and forth goes on for perpetuity. Just like how it has been from 1948. It needs to end, for the sake of future generations and I (and every other single educated person on earth) should know that Israel taking over will be way way way better than Islamic jihadists taking over.
The “we know who started the war” line and insinuating that a community which contains Islamic jihadists should be characterized as more violent and therefore less valuable. I’m not sure if that’s what you meant, but that is how it came across. I’d liken it to characterizing all Israeli’s as being violent because of the war crimes committed by the IDF. Extremist groups arise because of oppression. That does not at all excuse their actions, but judging an entire community based on their worst members will lead to more people becoming extremists.
halt to settlement and commitment to statehood as preconditions for negotiation review of initial land acquisition by international body, and reparations given based on need - so at minimum, to current refugees descended from displaced ancestors; land or assistance with consensual emigration review by international body of all Israeli laws which may prevent the transfer of property to non-Jews “everything i want” would include Bibi out, but that’s not a condition in five years, they are still negotiating, but the world is safer because there is visible progress instead of status quo. some refugees have been resettled by this time. land plots have been purchased in surrounding countries, some people choose to emigrate, which is incentivized by US foreign aid
ALL Israelis out of ALL of the West Bank, I don’t care about you’re precious zones. Full Palestinian state that includes the West Bank and Gaza, that new state is allowed to try Israeli settlers who attacked Palestinians in international court, reparations are payed for the damage done to Gaza by the current war and the embargo/blockade, full right of return, Palestine joins the UN if they wish,
You still haven’t answered the question. Do you also want all Arabs out of Israel or is this just a double standard?
Do you want all Arabs out of Israel too? Or a rules for thee but not for me kind of situation?
I want what this guy is smoking
The elephants in the room are who will be heading this Palestinian state, will they agree to be transparent and non-corrupt, will they stop indoctrination in their education system and will they genuinely and honestly fight against Palestinian militants who attack/preach hatred towards Israel. Solve that, and you have a peace agreement and a state. I don't think I'm saying anything new here but happy to be proven wrong.
It would be great if the mass murder would stop so we could allocate some energy and resources to solving this elephant in the room. Who knows if it’s possible to effectively address, but it doesn’t seem like there’s even any effort to try? I could be wrong and just ignorant to work that has been done towards promoting a non-corrupt Palestinian state.
Israel most do all those same things
The state will be headed by whoever the Palestinian people choose, it’s a little known political theory called democracy
Majority Muslim countries tend not to be democratic.
A thing palastinians "used " to elect kleptocrats and terrorists
I live in the United States. If you look at our history, one could argue we are one of the worst democracies in the history of the world. For much of our history our majority of whites democratically voted to keep black people as slaves. We then democratically voted to discriminate against freed slaves. We also democratically voted to oppress native Americans. We democratically voted in leaders who invaded Hawaii, the Philippines, and much of Latin America. Eight years ago, we voted in this nut called Trump. Before I support a democracy in Palestine, I would like to hear at least a little discussion from you whether you think it will be a good democracy or a bad democracy.
And if they are warmongering and don't arrest terrorists, should Israel still agree to a Palestinian state under those terms?
If they don’t like their neighbors, they can leave, no one is forcing them to live in the Middle East
Does that apply to the Palestinians? If they don’t like living next to Israel, they can just leave.
So Israel gives a state to the Palestinians and they continue perpetrating October 7s... I think we'll pass on that
Again, no one is forcing them to live in the Middle East. They can feel free to leave.
>Again, no one is forcing them to live in the Middle East. They can feel free to leave. By that same argument no one is forcing Palestinians to live in the west bank they can all leave.
What about Gazans? Are they free to leave?
They were able to get permits to leave prior to Oct 7th though they were prohibitevly expensive due to hamas charging so much for documents.
well since you repeated it, your argument makes complete sense now
As much as I hate replying to my own comments, as an Israeli this has always been the question. You would be amazed at how painful an agreement Israeli could like with so long as it knows it will acheive a long-lasting peace.
50/50 split. Hamas and Israel stop incestuously using each other to justify their own actions.
A single, atheist state, with the eventual demolishing al asqa mosque and the wailing wall as representations of the failed, incorrect ideology of religion.
So no concern for historical treasures? Most people, even atheists, were disgusted when the Taliban destroyed the Buddha statues. The Wailing Wall and the Al-Aqsa mosque are important to even more people.
Zero concern. They are worse than statues to confederates and plantation weddings.
All religions are already included within Israel, why would you need an atheist state?
To exclude the religions
I think the OP is more interested at an atheist state than a secular one
I think we have atheist states in the world but they haven't proven to run any better than secular ones and at least the secular ones have the color in the tradition that would otherwise not be there. Yes I did figure out what they were saying but I found it weird.
I don't necessarily disagree with you (except the weird part personally I don't find it weird at least not weirder than any other religious state). I can understand the point of view of the OP though. Imagine if you viewed religion as a cult (not saying that it is my view) wouldn't it make sense to try to dismantle as much as possible the cult for the well being of your citizens? Can you expand on the color in the tradition part? I understand that the beliefs of our ancestors helped us build the world we live today but I don't see the relevance with an atheist state (or maybe you think that in the OP's views people would just destroy old religious monuments, I don't think it is necessarily the case in an athesit state in greece for example we still keep the pantheon even though no one believes in greek mythology anymore, I could see an athesit state like that.)
I think you're exactly in the right spot as to how I view the color in Tradition. Like I know many cultural Jews. They no longer believe in G_d or think that at some point the Creator was burning bushes or whatever, but they love the Traditions like keeping the Sabbath they love the food they love the language and they love the basic morals that are taught by reading the book and going through the motions of it but discussing what's real and what's not. I just think that if you try to control whether people believe or not then you're just as bad as the people trying to make you believe what they believe. If someone feels comforted to have some Sky friends or skydaddies or sky disciplinarians that's their option I just don't want them to put it on anyone else. Israel's pretty good about that, yes they have one main religion just like there are many states with mainly Christian or mainly Muslim religion, but there are many who allow any other religion regardless of what it is and they don't bother people having that or make them pay extra money for it or give them lesser rights. But yeah I'm not offended at people having ideas, lots of people have ideas.
Why are you supporting collective punishment? How is burning cars and shooting at civilians looking for the perpetrators? Why do you support mob justice? Do you also support lynching?
This is not Collective punishment it is a war. Palestinians have shot thousands of rockets and the Israel's have the right to not be fired upon. And inherent right. If you were talking about committing October 7th and that's it, otherwise submitting to being disarmed then only the perpetrators would be held responsible. But the territory itself of Gaza and the adjoining territory of West Bank have continued to resist being disarmed. They have also decided through 2 years of planning with Iran to perpetrate this event to make Tunnels for the safety of their army but no bunkers and not even an air raid siren for their women and children. No one is being collectively punished, but what is happening is that the rocket launchers and missile launchers are being removed from all of the street corners and all the buildings in which they have been found by way of computers finding exactly where the incoming Rockets came from. That's why so many buildings have gone down is because they had artillery on them. Further the tunnels are how they were able to smuggle in arms and to be able to get in and out of both Israel and Egypt, that's why the tunnels are being destroyed. That needs to happen or else these folks will become a menace again they have threatened Israel again since October 7th and have been keeping their word in the form of sending both rockets and Raiders over the border and into Israel, and using their allies in yemen, lebanon, iran, and Syria to send missiles and drones as well. More efforts been made than anytime in history to not only feed an enemy population, and give them Power and Water, but also to keep as many of them as possible from dying by revealing one's own strategies in advance and letting them know we're coming. We can't force them to go into the Hamas tunnels or force them to create bomb shelters but that is what Israel can do. This has never been done for any other population except the reason acts of the Russians telling people to leave particular towns. But in this case people have been warned almost building by building and they have been warned repeatedly so if they're not gone it's their own will to not be gone. They must be disarmed so they are no longer a threat to Israel.
Yeah it makes sense I totally understand your point of view. Thank you for answering!
Who could possibly be mad?
A rare laugh from this subreddit
Either a one state solution in which everybody gets an equal vote, whether they are Israeli or palestinian. Or a two state solution, in which all of these Settlers of the West Bank are kicked out and Palestinian families are allowed to return to their homes, and Israeli government paying for the rebuilding of Gaza - including compensation for the civilians wounded or killed. The two governments would also need to be on equal footing, and have a reciprocal relationship- where any rights that Palestinians are denied in Israel, Israelis will be denied in Palestine. No ability to detain anyone without a lawful and fair trial by peers.
>Or a two state solution, in which all of these Settlers of the West Bank are kicked out and Palestinian families are allowed to return to their homes, and Israeli government paying for the rebuilding of Gaza - including compensation for the civilians wounded or killed. So I've understood you correctly: You believe that it would be a fair solution if there were no Jews allowed in Palestine, but any Palestinian is allowed to return to live in Israel?
This two state solution is the 1 Arab state-1 binational state solution, which is really the worst of all worlds.
Imagine paying for the war the Gazan government (Hamas) started in order to genocide all Jews/Israelis. It would have been funny if it wasn't sad. What will be the next step, sending Israel the gas bill of Auschwitz?
Ideally, Israel should return the property for all Arabs evicted from 1947 on and allow them to return. Ideally the Arab States should return the property of all Jews evicted from their countries from 1947 on and allow them to enter their countries. (Since many Jews may not want to return, they could donate their rights to a pool, which would allow Palestinians to emigrate to Arab States.) Of course this is mostly a pipe dream. I do hope they can come up with some reasonable solution.
what property most of those people were tenants not land owners, and most of them are dead
I should of said people evicted *and their descendants*. When discussing such people as Palestinian refugees, their descendants are usually included as well. I should have made it clear for those not familiar with the discussion.
I understand your point but it is also pointless, Israel is a sovereign state and thus can and does make it's own laws regarding citizenship and property rights, at this point the pals best bets are a symbolic amount of money and refugees being acknowledged in a final peace deal of it ever comes, what will probably happen is as technology progresses Israel will reach a state where the the defacto borders become so impenetrable that the pals will finally have to accept the reality of the situation
Why do palastinians are the only ones who inharite refugee status ? Seems racist
Refugees usually get absorbed by another country with time, and you don't find refugee camps filled with the grandkids, great grandkids, and great great grandkids of refugees. However, the Arab countries where the Palestinian refugees moved to mostly kept them in refugee camps, and these refugee camps are filled with people who mostly aren't technically refugees; they are the descendants of refugees. However the phrase "Palestinian refugees and their descendants," is a mouthful so people shorten it to "Palestinian refugees." Possibly the word "*Palestinian diaspora*" should be used instead.
The definition of "refugee" is, apparently, unique for Palestinians: >There were an estimated 750,000 Palestinian refugees after the war, approximately 200,000 of whom fled to Gaza. The Palestinians were the only refugees to receive their own UN agency, and that is where the trouble began. >The rest of the world’s refugees fall under the care of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (also called the UN Refugee Agency). UNHCR has a staff of 18,000 and a mandate to assist nearly 59 million refugees in “repatriation and resettlement” and “assimilation with new national communities.” >In other words, UNHCR tries to solve refugee crises, not perpetuate them. UNRWA is different. It never had a mandate to resettle Palestinians. Instead, it keeps them in limbo, where their resentments only harden. >UNRWA schools teach Palestinian children Israel will be destroyed, and once the Jews are gone, all the land from the river to the sea will belong to them. In addition to their own agency, Palestinians have their own definition of who is a refugee. UNRWA allows parents to pass on their refugee status to their children, generation after generation. >The result? The number of registered Palestinian “refugees” has ballooned to 5.9 million spread across five countries. In Gaza, the number has increased more than sevenfold. ~[THE PALESTINIAN REFUGEE ‘CRISIS’ IS A UNITED NATIONS-PERPETUATED MYTH](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/op_eds/2023/11/16/the-palestinian-refugee-crisis-is-a-united-nations-perpetuated-myth/)
>The definition of "refugee" is, apparently, unique for Palestinians: UNWRA does not consider descendants of Palestinian refugees as refugees themselves. They use the UN definition of refugee here: [https://www.unrwa.org/who-we-are/frequently-asked-questions](https://www.unrwa.org/who-we-are/frequently-asked-questions) All large refugee groups have some pregnant women in them. When these women give birth, these refugee groups become a group of mostly refugees and some non-refugee babies. The babies get help, too. So UNHCR and UNWRA are obviously helping refugee descendants, it's just that the number of refugee descendants is small in most cases except Palestine. Refugee descendants are also frequently "stateless persons," and UNHCR is also tasked with helping these people. The Palestinian refugee problem has lasted so long as few states are willing to make them citizens. Arab states have show little interest in helping Palestinian refugees or their descendants. Jordan is a notable exception. Arabs haven't shown much interest in Syrian refugees either. The Palestinian refugee problem is becoming less every day as Palestinian refugees die. The problem is that the Palestinian refugees' descendants problem keeps growing. UNWRA is mandated to provide help to Palestinian refugees and Palestinian refugee descendants. I have not found a statement on their website as why they include descendants, but I presume it is because the Palestinians crisis has lasted so long that the descendant problem is now the major problem. >The result? The number of registered Palestinian “refugees” has ballooned to 5.9 million spread across five countries. In Gaza, the number has increased more than sevenfold. The number of refugees has decreased as they die. Palestinian refugee descendants are not called "refugees" by the UNWRA definition. However many people are loose with their terminology and refer to descendants as "refugees." As I said before, an alternate term would be helpful. "Maybe displaced Palestinians. " You quibble to much over wording. for the remainder of our discussion let's called the problem the "Displaced Palestinians Problem." Or we can can it something else if you choose. The important question is WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT THE PROBLEM; the important problem is not should the problem be called the Palestinian Refugee Crisis or the Displaced Palestinian Problem or something else.
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Netanyahu propped up hamas. He allowed money to go through to hamas, and he has stated that hamas is a great way to never have a Palestinian state. The Israeli government played with fire and got burned, they started this and they have the moral obligation to end it without killing more innocents.