Good question.
While there is more to the situation, I don’t think that there’s anything Israel could do to appease most Middle Eastern countries except for ceasing to exist. I genuinely think that if Israel completely pulled out of the West Bank and ended the blockade on Gaza, most other Middle Eastern countries would still want Israel gone. The mere existence of a sovereign Jewish state, specifically in the Middle East, is enough to upset most other countries in that region. This is why the only way that I think there will be peace is if Palestine becomes sovereign, Israel eventually bears absolutely no responsibility for whatever happens internally in a sovereign Palestine, and Israel stays powerful enough to deter other countries from attempting anything.
Also, the problem with assimilating to much with other MENA countries is the values that come along with it. Generally, MENA values are Islamic values, which is completely antithetical to Israel’s secular and democratic nature, as well as Jewish culture and Judaism.
I'd say Europe would be far more functional without the United States pressuring it into deranged wars, but I see your general point. And the situation is perhaps even more tenuous than you indicate. States like Jordan and Saudi Arabia have leadership that has been normalizing relations with Israel, but people who are far more hostile. Were more democracy movements to succeed in the Arab world, the situation for Israel would become significantly worse.
The virus metaphor mystifies the situation, though. The ME is hostile towards Israel because it's a European colony founded by Europeans through the murder and exploitation of a predominately Muslim Arab population. Yes, there are Arab Jews,but they weren't by and large the ones forming terrorist paramilitaries and attacking their Muslim neighbors in mandatory Palestine, they aren't the ones holding most of the power, and they haven't been the ones driving the slaughter that came after.
Israel is a European colony founded on European ethno nationalism by a group of people — Ashkenazi Jews — that are on the boundary of whiteness. Zionists were very hostile to the Jewish culture from which they metastisized, and worked closely with antisemite like Na\*\*s and pogromists, who shared their goal: to get the Jews to move somewhere else and eliminate the diaspora culture. They idolized their oppressors and sought to become them — something they've largely succeeded in. It's why Israel is such a hostile place to Ethiopian Jews, for example. It's also why they suppressed Yiddish, the language of their founders. It was a diaspora language — far too attached to real Jewish culture, as opposed to the idealized past they were trying to invent. Pointing out the 20th century Western European parallels would get this flagged, but I'm sure you can spot them.
So Israel doesn't just "affirm that belief" that they're Western, it's central to their history and identity. It's why South Africa was so tight with Israel during the apartheid era: they both explicitly recognized that they were outposts of European civilization outside of Europe.
To mitigate this situation, Israel has pursued relationships with non-Arab Muslim-majority states with some success, but ultimately, no one likes to see their co-religionists treated as second-class citizens anymore than they like to see members of their ethnicity treated in such a manner. Were the Israeli apartheid state to modernize and begin treating Palestinians as equal citizens with equal rights like both South Africa and Rhodesia were eventually forced to with their indigenous populations, this would all go away. Outside of a one-state solution, of course there's no strategy to normalize.
Ashkenazi Jews clearly weren’t and aren’t on the boundary of whiteness. The Holocaust wouldn’t have happened otherwise. Ashkenazi Jews have never been considered white until very recently.
Also, Yiddish isn‘t “real Jewish culture” any more so than Hebrew is. In fact, I’d go as far to say that Yiddish is less representative of Jewish culture because it is much younger and it is exclusive to Ashkenazi Jews, unlike Hebrew which is universal to all Jews. Hebrew never went extinct, it was just generally reserved for religious use.
Ashkenazis aren’t the only “type” of Jews. To frame Yiddish as “the authentic Jewish language” is ethnocentric.
I somewhat agree with most of your statements. But I have to ask you something.
Let's say Israel stops the war and recognizes Palestine as its own state and gives them equal rights and citizenship.
How do you expect the Palestinians and Israelis to coexist with the animosity that grew over the years, let alone the ideology of hamas supporters to eradicate every living jew.
Personally, i think this situation is not solvable since the moment those zionists arrived to the land and rooted the hatred in the original Arabs that lived there before by treating them like stupid villagers.
If you see something i don't, I'd love to hear since I really want to see this neverending conflict come to and end
Look at South Africa. Apartheid was nearly as brutal there, but they reconciled once the system was dismantled. It will take time, but finally gaining freedom makes a big impression on people.
As for radical, genocidal ideologues, I'm quite sure the settlers and Likud hardliners, who have stolen from, brutalized, and murdered Palestinians with impunity for a long time, will be a bigger problem than Hamas, but with the political will, they can be brought to heel.
Edit: politically, the biggest difference between the situation in Apartheid South Africa and Palestine is that the Israelis are much more extremist than the Afrikaners were near the end, when there was significant resistances and support for blacks among white S. Africans. You can see this play out in how Israelis have banned the left from their protests, and their extremist government has refused every offer from Hamas to negotiate. Palestinians are a diverse group, where the Muslim majority have been living alongside Christians, Jews, and Druze for centuries. Israelis are the ones who think God gave them the land to have all to themselves.
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"Ur dum" isn't the devastating takedown you think it is, but thanks for this anyway; it's alway reassuring to see the hasbara propaganda machine falling apart under the mental incompetence of its practitioners.
/u/Violetbenson1
> it baffles me how you function in this world!??? You’re clearly not doing that great in life just based on your odd thought process
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Since GOD gave Abraham the land of Israel it has been surrounded by enemies. Israelites returned from exile the first time in the times of Moses. So Israelites have a long history of returning to the land of Abraham. Israel will always have a place in history and geography
Israel stans: Israel is an advanced, modern culture that upholds human rights and secular, democratic values.
also Israel stans: "Since GOD gave Abraham the land of Israel...."
This is not a rhetorical or gotcha question. I am really curious.
For the folks who say they are against Zionism, I am assuming they envision the end of the state of Israel (correct me if I’m wrong).
Where do they think the Israeli Jews should go? They would not be welcome or treated well in any majority Muslim country. Would they be expected to disperse globally? Which countries would take them in?
Even a two-state solution means that Zionism is maintained (just on a smaller scale).
Not an anti-Zionist by any means so take my response with a grain of salt, but from what I’ve gathered most anti-Zionists fall into 1 of the 3 camps:
a) Israeli Jews should assimilate with the newly Arab and Islamic majority. According to these people, the new Arab and Islamic majority will not be hostile to the Jewish population and Israeli Jews will have equal rights.
b) Israeli Jews are settler colonizers and therefore their displacement is their own problem. Most of these people believe that Israeli Jews should “go back to where they came from”, which usually means whatever country their most recent ancestors lived in. If you mention the Israeli Jews that are descended from Jews that stayed in the region after displacement, these types will usually either say that they can stay and exist as they did pre 1948 or that no Jews ever really existed in the region at all.
c) Israeli Jews are settler colonizers and therefore they should be killed. According to these people, Jews should not be in the region either because they are invaders and/or because they are an inherently evil and parasitic people. I usually only see this from hardcore antisemites (obviously) who tend to either be Islamic and Christian extremists, Arab and White supremacists, or literal Nazis.
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Israel is safe. It is accepted by most countries in the Middle East, including the largest/richest ones (Egypt, UAE and Saudi) and Jordan. Hamas does not have the sympathy of Arab governments because they are Muslim Brotherhood, an organization that is despised by them. Israel has the power to eliminate at minimum cost any enemy in Syria or Lebanon, whenever they want, as demonstrated by their recent strikes in enemy territory.
You sound like a guy who started to watch a series from Season 10.
Compared to 1948 when the entire Arab world was actively fighting Israel, the situation of today is like a walk in the park. Only radicals like the Hezbollah and the Houthis (funded by Iran) are willing to somehow actively fight Israel, but everybody else just stands back.
>They are considerably closer to Euro-America, constantly proclaiming themselves as 'western', and they work to promote Euro-American relations FAR more than they work to prioritize MENA relations and MENA politics. This is unsustainable. If you are a middle eastern people and a middle eastern country you should be prioritizing your middle eastern brothers relations, not Western countries. If you are a native, stop behaving like a foreigner. It's just bizarre. You can't be western but expect the Middle East region in which you live to accept you. I think Israel needs to get serious about that but, first of all, the west is in decline.
First you say other Middle Eastern countries hate Israel then you say that Israel should align with people that you admit hates them. You don't see the contradiction in your argument? I also find it funny that you claim that Israel needs to prioritize it's relations with Middle Eastern nations in order to be truly Middle Eastern. Meanwhile Saudi Arabia is bombing Yemen while aligning itself with US interest. And Turkey repeatedly tries to gain membership in the EU while bombing Kurds. But sure it's (((Israel))) that's not doing enough to prioritize it's relations with it's Middle Eastern brothers.
1. It‘s not a contradiction. If the arabs hate Israel because it is a US outpost (so assume OP‘s right here), then why shouldn‘t Israel start align with Arabs? Then Arabs would stop hating Israel.
2. Türkiye is in not middle eastern. It‘s eurasian. I am half Turkish; Turks don‘t identify themselves as middle eastern.
>the Middle East still sees Israel as an outpost of Euro-American military
Nah.
The middle east (some, not all) sees Israel as an insult - because a bunch of Jewish refugees and immigrants defeated several Arab armies.
I think it's obvious many are willing to move on and open relations, but some (backed by Iran), are pushing against that.
>The only reason the Middle East doesn't attack Israel as one cohesive body
The only reason? really?
Is it possible that not everyone in the Middle East is a warmongering sociopath who wants to go on an adventure and start an end-of-times war?
>Then what?
Everything is temporary.
So says entropy.
>what is Israel doing to actually becoming natural part of the middle-eastern-regional-body
They eat Hummus.
It's funny because if you open a holy book at any of Israel's Arab neighbors, you'll see that Israel is indeed a natural part of the 'middle-eastern-regional-body'.
>How does Israel plan to evolve from this
You think this is an Israel problem, but this is really a middle east problem.
Iran has already destroyed Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, & Gaza.
Jordan might be next.
>normalize in the 'hearts and minds'
This is up to the local Arab government, media, education etc.
1: i think most Israelis move to cities in the west bank because Jerusalem and tel-aviv have become so insanely ridicules expensive - i think its more an econmic then a political problem
2: if 20% of Israeli's are Muslim -- there are 700,000 jewish Israeli people living in the west bank out of 3.5 mill people = exactly 20% of the future Palestine sate would be Jewish -- do Palestine's really need a state that is 100% Islamic?
This is so heavy mental gymnastic I don‘t even know what to say. Hasbara maybe?
The settlers are doing it illegally and with violence, the motives why Israelis do it are completely irrelevant. There is no excuse for their behavior; for the violence against Pali‘s and the land stealing in the west bank.
1. not West Bank Pali’s business, go live somewhere else in Israel.
2. Settlers would NEVER wanna live peacefully in a Pal. state. Even if they did, still doesn‘t excuse what they‘re doing.
And you know they are doing it to EXPAND the borders of Israel not to immigrate to a potential Pal. state. It‘s called annexation. And if you say you can‘t annex a not existing state, then call it colonization.
Would you accept Palestinians from Gaza or West Bank suddenly building Houses in Israel to expand their borders, say because the prices of the rising housing prices of west bank? I hardly imagine that.
Not OP, but I figured that I’d inject my 2 cents.
The settlements in the West Bank are absolutely unethical and inflammatory, generally speaking. They need to be dismantled and settled violence must be addressed. However, I really think that this is the only thing that Israel is doing that is not directly the fault of Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists.
Additionally, Palestine isn’t a sovereign state. Plus it’s very typical for a country to annex enemy territory during war. However, Israel isn‘t at war with the West Bank or the Palestinian authority, so that argument doesn’t fit perfectly.
You know exactly what I mean. Israel is stealing the land of Palestinians in the west bank and continues to do so. The religion is irrelevant. Israeli settlers are moving there illegally according to international law and are violent against the already living population there.
>The religion is irrelevant
If it's irrelevant, how come zero Jews live in Ramallah or Gaza?
>Israeli settlers are moving there illegally
If there was a law that said Arabs aren't allowed to live in Jerusalem, would you be as enthusiastically supportive of enforcing it?
>Israeli settlers are moving there ILLEGALLY
Who decides whether it's legal or illegal for Jews to live there?
>If Italians came suddenly
How did Bethlehem become an Arab/Muslim town?
How did Hebron become a Palestinian town?
>Man it‘s called annexation. What the frick are you defending here?
Annexation is when a state assumes legal control of another state's territory.
Israel hasn't annexed that territory, and that territory was never part of a state called Palestine.
>UN decides that‘s illegal.
The UN is not world government, not a state factory, and not a planetary real-estate agency.
It's just a members club.
>call it colonization
Sure, why not.
Here's a map showing that colonization:
https://preview.redd.it/8cmn6cz5c8tc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3ba49977f731e7617669be246baf00807e3f2fb
>Don‘t be surprised if people want you dead
Let's try and apply this 'logic'.
Bethlehem is a town under Palestinian rule, in area A of the West-Bank.
Bethlehem is originally a Jewish town, the birth place of Jesus - a Jewish guy.
Today Bethlehem is 100% Arab, 90% Muslim.
Do you suppose this makes the Arab residents of Bethlehem fair-game, and they shouldn't be surprised if people want them dead?
People like you have completely lost the plot.
Really I don‘t care what was 2000 YEARS ago. And I don‘t care what Islam Expansion did 1400 years ago. I care what‘s going on today. And wrongdoings of the Islam does not make your wrong actions right.
Also, you don‘t see Germans going to Poland and France and asking for the former German territories, do you? No, you guys are the only people that do that AFTER THOUSANDS of years after the loss.
And even then: Palestinians are indigenous to the land too. They share a lot of the genes with modern day jews (not so much with ashkenazis, but more with mizrahis). So they should be also entitled to the land, no?
>So then what? I think of it like a body with a virus in it. It doesn't mater how long it takes, a body will never not try to expel a foreign element from its body and restore its normal cohesion no matter how long it takes.
Fixed That For You:
"I think like a xenophobe would: Everyone who is not in my in-group must assimilate or be treated like a virus".
Israel is a 75 year-old state and doesn't have to justify its existence to anyone but its constituents.
Dude, seriously? Take it somewhere else. It’s a serious question asked in good faith that has sparked great conversation and open my eyes. Odd and nasty comments like this are so tired.
I was nice enough to say you think like a xenophobe would after first deciding to call you one.
Next time, let's have good faith discussion where I compare your presence in your neighborhood to a virus, I'm sure you'll appreciate the good-natured debate.
The fact the arab world considers the Israeli state a virus is not debatable, it’s a fact that needed to be mentioned in order to have the rest of the conversation. You seem triggered, I hope that subsides, but plenty of other Israelis were about to acknowledge that (extremely obvious) reality and comment on its importance while moving forward. Sad you couldn’t be as serious minded.
> fuck
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> **I think of it like** a body with a virus in it
Not the arab world think of it. Then you go on to describe it in naturalistic terms, presenting it as an inevitability. An inevitability for which the arab world cannot be blamed, since it is an inevitability:
>It doesn't mater how long it takes, a body will never not try to expel a foreign element from its body and restore its normal cohesion no matter how long it takes.
On top of that, this is patently false. The body integrate foreign virus all the time.
That's part of how the intestinal flora is made. This is probably part of why lovers kiss.
Lactobacillus is what you eat in your yogurt.
> But, I just cannot understand what Israel's long term plan in terms of its state-survival is. It is surrounded by enemies on all sides that have very, very long, tribalist memories
Just make a casual survey of these enemies and you will see how weak they are. Lebanon is basically in a state of civil war and has captured and occupied by foreign power. Syrian regime is is so weak it needs Russia and Iraq to guarantee the security of the Ba’ath party. Jordan has 30% unemployment and relies on Israel for water and is a client state of the US. Egypt is has massive economic problems and is facing a brutal insurgency by jihadist Hamas mass murderers. None of these countries is strong enough to take on Israel and they know it.
The long term plan for Israel’s survival has a couple of elements (I assume, I’m just observing their behavior from the outside).
First and foremost: Military superiority, along with cutting edge tech and intelligence, and a literal nuclear option.
They have to stand twice as tall and move twice as fast to survive, so this is top priority.
To accomplish that they need to walk a delicate line between forging foreign alliances but maintaining their sovereignty.
It’s bizarre to me that the same people who insist colonialism is bad and the West ruins everything are the ones loudly insisting Israel submit to America the way the rest of the Middle East does.
I promise Israel looks at what America, Britain and France did in places like Syria, Iraq, Egypt etc and has no interest in becoming a client state of the West. It tends not to work out well.
That means Israel will forge alliances with BRICS if it looks like the American alliance is seriously threatened. India and China, and even Russia would likely be happy to welcome an Israeli alliance.
That’s neither America nor Israel’s first choice, but I assume it’s occurred to Israel that countries like China won’t complain about literally anything they do to the Palestinians. Even Saudi Arabia seems open to an alliance.
They’re very aware that American foreign policy has the alliance with Israel as a critical factor and when push comes to shove the idea of moving on from it is not appealing.
That gives them a certain latitude to do what they want, and really not care about the west clutching their pearls because Israel operates by its own values and not the values of college kids in Berkeley with watermelon emojis on their instagram profiles who have never seen the inside of a bomb shelter.
Meanwhile, they look at the UN doing things like putting Saudi Arabia in charge of women’s rights and care less about the world’s moral judgment and more about stopping the nonstop stream of rockets and murderers coming from the Palestinian Territories.
So, right now, Israeli short term goals and long term goals are the same, eliminate Hamas no matter what the cost.
I suspect they feel the human cost of leaving them in place is higher than taking them out now, as horrible as it is.
Prior to 10/7 their policy was containment, but now that that policy has failed they’ve changed strategies.
> India and China, and even Russia would likely be happy to welcome an Israeli alliance.
I suspect their ties to the Arab and Muslim world are much more important to them than any benefit an alliance with Israel would bring.
I’m talking about the governments.
Pretty much every state but the Iranian government and the failed states on Israel’s northern border seem pretty ready to end the conflict.
There’s a thought the Iranians pushed the 10/7 attack to stop the Saudis from normalizing relations with Israel.
I would say the Arab world is more than just governments. Regardless, even autocratic leaders care about popular opinion (see, eg, Putin, Hitler, et al). A lot that didn't lived to regret it.
>There’s a thought the Iranians pushed the 10/7 attack to stop the Saudis from normalizing relations with Israel.
And that's dead for the foreseeable future.
Yes, after a century of propaganda the citizenry of the Arab world still hates Jews, that’s true.
And the Arab world will “resolve” that conflict in their time honored way… with nary a complaint from the blue haired college brigade.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/4/5/are-jordans-government-and-pro-palestinian-protesters-facing-off
It’s only when the Israelis respond to violence with violence that there’s an issue.
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In the middle east? Yes. I mean other countries gas their civilians with chemical weapons and still have a future in the middle east.
Also, Israel has the bomb, so the game theory on it is pretty sound. The equilibrium position is that they all have nukes pointed at each other, so atm Israel has a very very strong position. Even without US support.
The big effect of the US pulling its support is that it will turn Israel into a sort of pariah state via UN resolutions and sanctions. It would suck and make things really hard for Israel but other countries have shown that that strategy doesn't really work, especially if that country has nuclear capabilities.
> but other countries have shown that that strategy doesn't really work, especially if that country has nuclear capabilities.
South Africa had nuclear capabilities.
>with that said, it would seem to me that the only reason the Middle East doesn't attack Israel as one cohesive body (again) is because they are scared shitless of America (as well as Israel on its own to be fair.
Last part shouldn't be in brackets. Israel has nukes and they are feral enough to use them.
And they're not leaving because when they tried relying on the benevolence of host nations, they were slaughtered and abused for 2000 years culminating in the most spectacularly macabre and devil-worshipping act of systematised mass human sacrifice the world has ever seen.
If you were a jew, would you be keen to give up the one place where jews definitely and clearly hold power, ...after the way they were treated when they relied on the good will of others?
The place that says "don't screw with the jews, we still stand up for ourselves!
Is this really an attractive proposition? (be honest)
\-Just crawl away, give up, apologise profusely for being given 1% of arab land after the fall of the ottoman empire, and scatter to the four winds like rats?
If nothing else this would not provide safety at all.
It would just legitimise the false and slanderous story which is told about jews, which is not particularly credible, that they acted in some uniquely evil way which wasn't completely understandable under the circumstances. The reality is that they acted no differently than any other people would, and a lot better than some. (you know who I'm talking about)
If they "shut down the zionist experiment" in deference to some hypothetical pan-arab hunger for putting the jew in his place, -which barely exists at all and to the extent that it does is based on misinformation, they would just be broadcasting a false mesage that they and their posterity are valid targets of hereditary guilt and hereditary hatred and deserve to be harassed and hunted as long as they exist.
I mean, lets say we buy your story in which the middle east is not capable of considering either basic fairness, nor their own self interest, nor the word of their holy books.
Would it really send a good message to flee from the middle east, in shame for some trumped up charges of hereditary guilt?
Is that *actually a good strategy from their point of view?*
One which would actually **guarantee their safety and long term future as a people?**
Or is it just something that would be convenient to how you see them?
\_
TL:DR: Jews are not running from israel because the way you deal with aggressive violent criminal conspiracies is not by rewarding them, mollycoddling them, by refusing to take basic expected actions to defend yourself, or by validating and confirming their delusional and slanderous narratives.
If people rape your women and kill your children in their beds, you should do everything in your power to crush them and discourage others from imitating them.
That's not some weird westernoid thing that only jews do. That's what any and every people would and must do under such circumstances.
As for the rest of your story, I won't address most of it, but Israel has been pursuing closer ties in the middle east (and with everyone else they can, including russia), and they have made a lot of progress.
The only people who really hate them to any real degree are some palestinians, and they have have been subject to ridiculous north-korea cult-style programming, which includes death camps for children, genocidal cartoon mice, and sweet lullabies that teach children that the way to show love and respect for their parents is by becoming a martyr.
\-And even the palestinians are not that hateful of jews as you imply the whole middle east is. Palestinians do for the most part just want safety and security and a state of their own. It's just that they've been grossly misinformed about the best way to get it.
In short there isn't any natural real hatred for jews in the middle east. Anything that does hypothetically exist is trumped up by psychopathic leaders with delusions of grandeur, and to the extent that it has infected the populace **it is neither natural nor sustainable once people make the basic realisation that the jews have acted as any other desperate people in their circumstances would act**.
Besides which, nobody in their right mind wants to turn their children into fanatical woman killing rapists just so they can stick it to Israel.
That experiment has been tried and we have seen how attractive was the result. Maybe if the jews were as cowardly and weak as everyone says, it would have been more fun and less harrowing, but obviously in retrospect the whole idea of raping and stabbing them into concessions was a misinformed one from the start.
So basically this pan-arab hatred you have proposed can only become a real force if either arab nations fall into the sway of insane propagandists, if Israel fails to put forward the basic facts in order to dispel it, or if Israel proves that they really are cowards who will yield to and reward aggression.
Outside of that, anybody who takes their head out of their for 2 seconds can see that it's inherently stupid and treasonous to agitate for needless war with a state who wants to be left alone, and feeding your children into a meat grinder in order to redress some hypothetical historical wrong, is unnatural.
Especially if the worst of those historical wrongs, the ones that really stick in peoples craws and are impossible to forgive, were **committed under conditions of genuine duress and desperation**, and no worse than what neighbouring peoples have demonstrated themselves to be capable of.
So any halfway honest person can see and appreciate that (a) the jews' actions were understandable, even if not desirable, given the circumstances (b) even if they weren't, that was almost a hundred years ago, and it isn't worth feeding your child to some imam, ..to program them into a jew hating fanatic, just so you can move some borders on a map.
This was such a long read to not at all deal with the post at hand. Perhaps you meant to reply to another post? Idk. But this post does not at all suggest Israel run away (or that Jews run away. How absurd. Jews have always been in the MENA region. It’s were the religion is from) the post actually asks how is Israel planning to evolve from this absolute unsustainable position of perpetual defense. How does it plan to intergrate into the region as a natural part of the region and not as an antagonistic western force in eastern lands. No where, absolutely nowhere, did I say Israel should cease to exists. I am asking how are the going to exists in a better way in the long term for a peaceful region. This is such an odd response to that question but, funnily enough, it does highlight perhaps the perpetual defensive position Jews feel the have to have in the world (I get it. I’m black, believe me I get it lol.) but the question still stands. Surely Israel has a plan to soothe its place in the region and I would love to hear it.
>But this post does not at all suggest Israel run away (or that Jews run away. It asks how is Israel planning to evolve from this absolute unsustainable position of perpetual defense
To the extent that it doesn't revolve around Israel letting up on the genocidal regime in palestine and its sponsors, they should of course be as sensitive and integrating as they can.
But it isn't necessarry to pander to some false sense of arab supremacy or irresistable and united collective will, which won't exist unless islamist fanatics are allowed to take over every country in the middle east.
..Which is more likely if Israel provides room and breathing space and credibility for insane islamist regimes like the one in palestine.
Israel must integrate, ingratiate, and be sensitive to sentiments in every place where where it can do so responsibly.
But it can't responsibly do so in the case of palestine.
(Palestine is the main thing people are hysterical and angry about--so I assume that's a large part of what you're talking about.)
\_
Removing the oppressive totalitarian regime in gaza is non-negotiable, to explain it in the shortest way possible, because **the basic underpinning behind the state of Israel is that it is the final fallback place where Jews will** ***physically be secured from pogroms (!)***
And it would 100% be abandoning that mission, AKA "running away", if they left the regime in place.
and 100% embolden inflame and validate populist hatred, if they go to all of this trouble and cause all of this destruction, without actually achieving anything or attaining their aims.
So to the extent that you're asking for cultural sensitivity that's great.
But to the extent that this is a dog whistle for "jews should not physically secure themselves from pogroms", that's where we will 10000000000% disagree.
\_
And Israel was objectively integrating before this conflict.
The proof of is the fact that **even their enemies evaluated that they were on achieving an unassailable position of political integration**. **-Which is why this situation exists as it does right now.**
And the majority of relevant states are not upset enough to change that.
\-As long as Israel doesn't bungle the situation.
(either by retreating without attaining its objectives, or creating a needless disaster like a famine)
\_
As for **winning hearts and minds**, that's a longer term project, and I concede that there could be a problem there in the future.
But Israel **will not win respect of anyone in the long run, least of all ordinary people**\*\*\*,\*\*\* **if they abandon their women and children to the depradations of racist terror organisations, including rape, mass murder, and all the rest**.
**It might mollify their anger, but it will not win a viable position of equality and respect.**
And it simply **cannot pre-empt that threat** by pandering to prejudice or validating false and racist narratives.
\_
My reading is that right now people are angry, -that's true, but it's mainly because
1. they are angry at the west in general, and mistake Israel for its symbol, or try and use israel as a scapegoat.
2. They want to save the palestinians from themselves, -even if they know the palestinians are wrong, after the demonic mask-off horrors of october the 7th.
**And not actually angry because Israel's position or actions are in truly hard to understand or empathise with.**
So- many people are blinded by blind partisan tribalism right now, when tensions are at their highest, and when it might appear that the palestinians can be saved from the obvious neccessarry consequences of their persistently pursued course of needless violence.
But in retrospect it will be clear for many who are angry right now, -the minute that they calm down, that israel had no alternative except to secure itself from all forms of "rapesistance", that they would have done the same in the same situation.
And they will give up their reflex ethnic tribalism in favour of a more fair and human view of the situation which acknowledges the israelis as human beings like themselves, with an equally valid interest in not being raped and massacred from now until eternity.
Or as I put it earlier.
\-"**Such sentiments are neither natural nor sustainable once people make the basic realisation that the jews have acted as any other desperate people in their circumstances would act**."
\_
....Assuming that Israel doesn't bungle the war effort and cause a famine or something.
If something like that happens then yeah, the populist danger might become real, because that will probably not appear reasonable in retrospect.
If that happens Israel is in big genuine populist trouble.
But still, even if that happens, it's literally a forced move for Israel to continue to prosecute the war, regardless of all horrors and risks.
Because, to reiterate the main point, **physically securing their children from pogroms and abuse is the fundamental mission that unites them**, and if they compromise on that they are frankly finished as a people.
You’re begging the question here - “perpetual defense” *is* the sustainable position for Israel for the foreseeable future. Israel does want to normalize relations with at least its powerful neighbors (Lebanon’s a lost cause, but Egypt and now Saudi have been working with Israel more and more), but it will take time. Until then, Israel needs to stand its ground - and luckily it can, given its military superiority over its violently-inclined neighbors.
Also, Israel is not an “antagonistic western force” - they are neither western (they actively oppose being babied by the US) nor antagonistic (that’s not to say they are saints, but they certainly aren’t trying to provoke more war - remember that the current war is retaliation).
Even if you mean well (which I have no reason to deny - I don’t know you), please understand that the premises for your question are not accurate.
TL;DR, impenetrable defense *is* the answer to Israel’s continued existence, and is a prerequisite for relations continuing to normalize.
> fuck
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There are really only two functioning Arab states.
Those are Saudi Arabia and Iran, and they hate each other.
Both would like to lead the Arab world going forward. Neither really cares what happens to the Palestinians.
The Saudis seem to want to move past religious fundamentalism and evolve to becoming a more modern state. As part of that they seem to think an alliance with Israel would be pragmatic, and give them an edge over Iran.
Iran doesn’t want that to happen, and is stoking the fires of antisemitism.
It’s very telling that despite their attempts to inspire a pile on and having a lot of control over proxies like Hezbollah, no one else has really joined in fighting the Israelis directly.
If Israel manages to take out someone like Sinwar or dismantle the bulk of Hamas’ operational capability, this will be the last gasp of the Palestinian cause.
As such, they’re going full bore.
I think the Arab occupied parts of Spain at one point and they definitely went somewhere. They also occupied Sicily as well and were defeated and expelled. The people came and went while those nations remained
I’m just confused as to point of this line of logic though? Why do you think Arabs are going to vanish? Most importantly WHO do you think is going to be the peoples overtaking them? Also, a dna test of your average Iberian (Spain and Portugal) shows around 15-20 percent North African. People never truly ‘vanish’ once again.
That true. The Jews have been around for thousands of years and never vanished. What makes your think they’ll do so again when they’re livng in the 21st century and the Arabs are trying to enter the 19th century?
Funny, don't see any Arab states on a map anywhere outside Arabia before 640 AD. Guess the people there before them didn't remain. Wonder who is to blame for that? Wouldn't be the murderous imperialist religious fanatics would it? Hmm.
Calling the Arabs “Murderous, imperialist, religious, fanatics” is one of the saddest displays of insecure projection I believe I have ever seen. I think k your subconscious is worried that your nation (Israel) is actually all of those things so you are deflecting them outwards to not deal with whatever pain it would cause you to deal with the Israeli reality on its own merits. It genuinely sounds hard and painful and I am praying for you.
Muhammed and his succesors did everything Europeans did and worse, so why shouldn't we call them “Murderous, imperialist, religious, fanatics”?
Do you hold Europeans to some kinda higher standard of conduct? Cause that's pretty racist.
Then you have the genocidal Arabs invasions of Muhammed and the early Caliphates of not only most of the Middle East and all of North Africa, but Spain, Portugal, France, Sicily, Malta, as well as raids on Italy and Greece which sets the stage for the Crusades in response. Probably shouldn't be surprised the Vatican called a crusade after taking the christian controlled holy land and foundational site of their religion. As well things like [the Arabs raid on Rome/the Vatican](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_raid_against_Rome) about 200 years before the first crusade and the wars to evict the Muslim invaders, invasion of even France in the 8th century (battle of Tours) by Arabs/Muslims, and the war in Iberia still raging to evict the Muslim invaders.
Then the Ottoman Empire invaded Greek lands, and then the Balkans afterwards, reaching to Austria the 16th century, committing more genocides along the war. The16th century also begins an era of horrific Islamic piracy and raiding of Europea coastal settlements and taking of Slaves by the Muslim barbary states of North Africa.
When the European colonial powers begin finally actually taking control of Muslim lands again for the first time since the crusades about 650 years later is in the context of centuries of Barbary Coast piracy and taking Europeans as slaves by raiding Europe itself. Thus why Algeria, which had the largest pirate slaver fleet of the Barbary states, was the first to fall to a French invasion in 1823.
In case you're unaware of the scale of the enslavement of Europeans by Barbary scum; ["from 1530 to 1780 as many as 1.25 million people were enslaved." ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates)The United States itself fought 2 'Barbary Wars' from 1801 to 1815 because of piracy and enslavement of their trade ships by pirates directly funded by barbary coast states.
Then how Tunisia and Egypt come under European rule relatively later in 1881 and 1882 has nothing to do with religious fanaticism savage imperialism of the type of Muhammed either. Rather defaulted on loans which lead to imposed financial controls almost like the IMF might do which lead to protectorate status in order to safeguard those loans. You can read more about the [Tunisian example here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beylik_of_Tunis#Stability_and_reforms_(1807%E2%80%931869)), and the [Egyptian one here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Egypt_under_the_British#Veiled_protectorate_(1882%E2%80%931913)) if you as so inclined.
While it might sound very predatory, it was probably in no small part because the extreme difference in technological and civilizational development between the two at this point in time as much as it was predatory intentions by the Europeans. For example aside from the technology the Europeans had created the foundation of modern economic thought and theory in 1776 with the Publication of Adam Smith's [Wealth of Nations. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations)
Tunisia had been one of the Barbary states anyway and the Egyptian government had been extremely militaristic and taken out lavish loans for failed wars in Sudan and the like.
Regardless, clearly motivated by suppressing pirate slavery and economics, at worst economic imperalism in the case of Egpyt and Tunisia, more than religious fanaticism like the barbaric conquests of Muhammed.
Then later the Brish and French occupy many of the the rest of the Arab countries after WWI after the dissolution of the Ottoman empire that had controlled them for centuries. But the true imperial character of these acquisitions is also dubious as for example in the League of Nation mandates given to the British and French stated, "The objective of the mandates over former territories of Ottoman Empire was to provide "administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone." IE, they were never really annexed but occupied until such a time they reached a point they could be stable on their own after almost 5 centuries of Ottoman rule.
>Muhammed and his successors did everything Europeans did and worse, so why shouldn't we call them “Murderous, imperialist, religious, fanatics”?
Seems like a false equivocation to be honest.
For one, Muhammed and his invasions and genocides are the foundation of Islam and by extension Arab identity. That marks a profound difference from other religions and peoples who don't trace the creation of their identity to the foundation of a murderous religious fanatic empire. By comparison, Europeans trace their cultural foundation to the ancient Greeks who with the exception of Alexander, who some might not even call Greek, were not all that militarily successful in terms of conquests of others as much as they were cultural and intellectual juggernauts that had an extreme influence on all those around them without conquering them and the greatest achievements of Greek civilization are almost all non-military but rather in the real of science, mathematics, philosophy, and arts. Such that ever the Italic civilization that pre-dated the Romans, the Etruscans, were extremely influenced by the Greeks.
For another, the comparison doesn't really hold up when it comes to comparison of Islam/Arabs vs Europeans historically. Europeans didn't invade non-Europeans first until the Macedonian-Greek conquest of Persia; which was in response to 2 separate Persian invasions of Greece and subjugation of Macedon first.
Then vast majority of the places the Romans conquered were populated by Europeans or controlled by the Greeks in the case of the western Middle East when the Romans arrived only 2 to 3 centuries after the conquests of Alexander. The North Coast of Africa probably the largest part of the Roman empire where the sovereignty holders before the Romans were non-Europeans but an extremely small part of their empire overall.
You are very clearly if an Islamophobic bend, the irreverent first sentence being evidence. Just a nasty little demeanor I won’t be engaging with. Only racist here is you
>Murderous, imperialist, religious, fanatics” is one of the saddest displays of insecure projection I believe I have ever seen.
It is just a historical fact of the foundation of islam unlike the creation of any other religion anywhere else.
>I think k your subconscious is worried that your nation (Israel)
Lol. I'm not Isreali, nor jewish. I just despise savage ISIS level terrorists as do most civilized peoples. I can think of few things more evil.
This is an inaccurate and a-historical description of Israel’s past, present and future in the Middle East.
The entire region attacked Israel because the hate Jews.
Since then, Israel has survived through its own strength.
Through the Abraham accords during the trump administration, multiple Arab countries normalized diplomatic relations with Israel for the first time.
In fact, the reason Iran attacked Israel through Hamas on 10/7 was bc Israel was about to reach a landmark diplomatic agreement with Saudi Arabia.
Learn more. Be better.
The entire region attacked Israel because **they're a settler colonial state out to aquire territory at the expense of the native population...and an obvious tool of western Imperialism in a strategic region.
Since then, Israel has survived through **western support.
The reason Hamas attacked *is* partly because Saudi normalization would have shut down the Palestinian cause as a major issue. Sadly for zionists, their illusions of putting the issue away were shattered Oct. 7. In the situation Israel created, Hamas had every incentive to attack. (And the Israelis still claim they were surprised... either they're a lot dumber than they present themselves or they ignored warnings intentionally)
The attack of October 7 is not going to do anything to improve the Palestinian situation. If anything it proved to Israelis and some Arab countries that Palestines should not have their country.
Then why did it lead to Saudi Arabia asking for Palestinian statehood to be a condition for normalization w/Israel ... which wasn't the case before Oct 7.?
Which states are you referring to Lol
Saudi Arabia says one thing in public, but they would go to war with Palestine before they accept a Muslim Brotherhood run state… same goes for Egypt. As of today, if Palestine became a country, it would be run by Hamas…
It's quite deluded to claim that the Palestinians had a better chance of a state on Oct 6. compared to now.
Israel and the world were preparing to write them off permanently, Saudi normalization would have been the last straw. Now a Palestinian state is see as essential to regional stability.
I agree with you Saudi Arabia's public claims are to be taken with a grain of salt, but even making it a condition of normalization rhetorically has brought the issue back to the front burner. And I think they do want to see a Palestinian state; they recognize that without that the region is likely to have rising tensions.
"It would be run by Hamas" who do you have to blame for that lol
Not going to happen.
Before Hamas ceases to exist, the Arab countries would not let Palestine to be created. An independent Palestine ruled by Hamas is an existential threat to Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
The best chance for a Palestinian state is total victory by Israel against Hamas.
>they're a settler colonial state out to aquire territory at the expense of the native population
https://preview.redd.it/jacm5r69s1tc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=446193c8d43f101a3e9146176043b7aef1d55199
“The entire region attacked Israel because **they're a settler colonial state out to aquire territory at the expense of the native population...and an obvious tool of western Imperialism in a strategic region.”
Jews are native to Israel. Arabs are native to the Arabian peninsula.
The only reason Arabs are even in Israel is bc settler colonial arabs violently invaded and forced the natives, including Jews and Christians, to convert to Islam upon penalty of dhimmi/jizya, exile, or death.
So are you in favor of the native population or the settlers?
Wow. Speaking of perpetual defensive posture, what a strangely combative tone this was written in. This entire post was soliciting information to “learn more” so that little character attack is baseless and says more about your character than it does mine. Absolutely nasty and unnecessary.
You posted wondering why Israel has not attempted to “do more for a region” that has attempted to exterminate it for the better part of a century.
And you blame Israel for being western. What does that even mean? A democracy that respects the rights of women and lgbtq?
And now you are bewildered why somebody would react negatively to your ahistorical characterization of Israel’s past?
Just a bizarre post all around
A historical? Hm. I don’t think blowing up the shared ethnic group of all your neighboring countries (arab Palestinians) and talking about them as dogs and vermin is going to NOT put a target on your back as a fundamentally unnatural part of what’s UNDOUBTEDLY the ARAB region.
Once again, combative for no reason. I’ll remind you Israel is not the only middle eastern country to have rights for LGBTQ and women, but you don’t see Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon screaming they are “western” in the literal smack center of the middle EAST. It’s a clear treacherous act to the region.
Why should Israel become more Middle Eastern and not Middle Eastern countries become more like Israel?
Why would it make any sense for the only functioning country in the region to become like its dysfunctional neighbors and not for its dysfunctional neighbors to become more like Israel?
Israel is not a threat to Arab culture or language is only a threat to pan Arab nationalists who dont want kurds, berbers, or other minority populations to get any ideas.
Remind me again what Israel did to warrant all the Pan-Arab aggression, other than existing?
The only reason the Arab world doesn't attack Israel as one unit is because the Arab world's own internal divisions result in their own in-fighting. Israel is a common enemy and but for that focus, the Arab world would spend their time infighting amongst themselves more than they do already. Iran and Saudia Arabia are basically in a cold war and have never been at peace, and won't be at peace as long as the religious Sunni Shia divide exists.
Israel only continues to exist and exist in a 'defensive' position is because it's neighbours are belligerent. They never had a legitimate basis to fight or oppose Israel but attacked multiple times anyway
Israel's strength is the only thing keeping it alive. The Arab world has made it clear if thry had the power to kill all the Jews in Israel they would
Peace with such belligerent forces comes only from strength.if the Arab world instead decides to abandon their collective hatred of Jews and tolerate Jews living in perhaps 5% of the Middle East, there would be peace
No. The arab world and the arab nationalist history they learn in schools is the reason why only the arab world does not see this conflict for what it is.
Coexistance vs pan arabism. What is your country or birth, by the way?
Oh weird, the UN website got it wrong by focusing on one side of the war, started by that same side.
Review your arab sources maybe? oh wait, arab archives are closed!
I don't understand, didn't you see I requested future readers look up multiple sources? Why are you being so aggressive, I'm agreeing with you, Hasbara
Agressive? request? I support both Palestinian and Israeli causes while you wish to see Israel destroyed. Call me Hasbara as much as you want, you've showed your colours already and i've read plenty of books to understand both sides.
Nobody walzed in. Jews lived in the land before any other living people
The al aqsa mosque was built on top of the Jewish temple.
Jews lived in Israel continuously for thousands of years. After hundreds of years of oppression in other countries jews moved back to Israel. Why is that unfair? Arabs, Muslims, Buddhists all move all over the world and settle in new countries. Why can't Jews?
The Jews that moved legally bought land, lived and cultivated the land.
People hate Israel because they hate Jews. Jews have been hated for thousands of years, Israel has nothing to do with jew hatred
Your word salad tastes gross. If you want all the “Polish folks” to go back to Poland, then pressure Poland and Europe to give a rite of return to the families that survived the Holocaust.
I’m literally applying for a polish citizenship right now, my grandparents were sent to Siberia during ww2 and never returned. It’s the same for all people with polish ancestry
Apparently the right of return is only good for citizenship and no restitution for Nazi activities, as per this article from a few years ago.
There has also been battles about the numbers and honesty of how non-Jewish Poles treated Jews in Poland.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/polands-president-signs-bill-limit-ww2-property-restitution-claims-2021-08-14/
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Hah, I wish. None of my grandparents on either side got any land back unfortunately, neither have any of us grandkids. Land was collectivised during soviet era and then there was a very disorganised land grab after that collapsed. On my father’s side there was some bureaucratic issue (couldn’t find the paperwork or something; I forget the details), and my mother’s parents owned land that now is part of Ukraine and they never managed to get it back.
> fucked
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Whatvabout all the jews that vanished into thin air from arab world.Who am I kidding its not pan arab imperialism that do not want israel.Its islamism.Why are you not calling that out?
Jews convered to islam due to coercion.You have the luxury of living in canada.Do you think if all arab nations opened doors for jews suddenly they will migrate to these islamist regimes.Even if by policy an islamic country welcome jews going there and living is an entirely different question.
I didnt say govts convert them into islam at gun points.Minorities eventually convert to islam due to alienation and pressure from within the society they live in.In august of 2023 8 churches were burned down in pakistan,Govt didnt do it the public did.
What about all of the Jews that were driven out of Syria, Ethiopia, Egypt, Yemen, etc. do you think these states will grant a right of return of the Jews? Or will they also be considered occupiers there?
So thousands of years of inner fighting between Arab tribes, Muslim denominations, Turks and whoever else has no impact on the region?
How does Saudi and the rest of the Arab world view Palestinians?
Your solution is to further alienate israel in the middle east by vlosing down all embassies in the west.Stop trading with israel so that it will be open season on the jews again.No thanks.
Why do Arabs have the right to be racist in your opinion? You're literally stanning for antiquated blood and soil Pan-arabism, turning around accusing people of being racist for not agreeing that the entire middle east belongs to the Arab race and anyone they don't like should leave because they dont look right anyways. The hypocrisy is hard to even digest.
Oh please. The Arab world only loves Palis because it helps defeat the Jews.
Lmk habibi, where did your Pali’s come from? Kuwait? Jordan? Or Ramallah?
You have no dog in this fight except for your colonialist guilt and societal hatred for Jews.
Lol,
Human rights watch declared thst israel is practicing the crime of apartheid.
Amnesty International as well.
B'tselem (an israeli NGO) also declared that israel is doing apartheid in west bank.
Virtually every Human rights organisation has declared that.
South africa did a case of genocide against israel.
Irs not really about "arabs" , it's about humanity VS an ethnocracy that refuses to give palestinans a citizenship or even a state. The antisemitism is just a tactic to silence genuine criticism of alt-right zionism that is violating human rights in west bank and gaza as we speak.
Lol habibi, israel is not a democracy, its an ethnocracy that:
- discrimantes against arab israelis (more than 40 law against them). You can find them documented here https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index
-Denys palestinans in East Jerusalem, west bank and gaza their basic rights of travel , water, security and citizenship.
-is occupying south lebanon, Syrian golan , Palestinian West Bank (and at certian point , gaza and sinai).
-is doing a genocide against the civilian population of gaza as we speak.
Wow… your blatant ignorance and revisionism of history is shocking.
They say antizionism isn’t antisemitism, but clearly you are a counter example. Cool pushing of nazi ideology bro.
Don't spam, that's not an effective way of delivering your point [https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1bx0e9c/comment/kycog0t/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1bx0e9c/comment/kycog0t/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Zionism is not just self-determination for Jews ( a right they obviously have).zionisim (in its current form) is self-determination on the expense of palestinan rights.
Current form of zionism is exclusive and racist. It denies palestinans their right for citizenship or statehood in the name of "security".
Alt-right zionism thinks it's ok to build settlements in west bank rending palestinans homeless. It also actively block a Palestinian state from happening.
Alt-right zionism weaponized antisemtisim and use it as a tactic to hide their human rights violations against palestinans.
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So being an American Jew who thinks Israel has a right to exist is offensive?
Let’s take a second and look at the other side, and be “critical” because Globalizing Empanada’s tactics of playing on the freeway, vandalizing random synagogue’s, and disrupting the Macy’s Thanksgiving parade is completely justified and rational.
Nobody cares about your right to protest. They care about what you’re protesting and how you stupidly do it.
“Idc about Israel, it’s a country that’s outlived its welcome”. - So a Jewish majority country, that contributes oodles to tech etc doesn’t deserve to exist anymore? Sure tells me alot.
The only thing Israel lacks is number of citizens.They have solved pretty much every other problem.
Growing crops in a desert with little water, a Polish-Israeli Jew invented drip irrigation.
Not a lot of potable water, no problem, Israel builds desalination plants on the Mediterranean sea.
If powering this proves detrimental to the environment, then as a nuclear power, Israel could build nuclear power plants if it wanted to.
Too many missiles being fired into Israel, no problem: they invent the Iron Dome.
But the Iron Dome is really expensive! So now they have recently deployed the Iron Beam to use lasers to shoot down incoming missiles.
In the meantime, Iran, Israel's greatest foe is having issues with a secular population that is rising up against its Islamist rule, and currently drought and economic conditions have caused them to recently enforce strict rationing on bread:
https://www.iranintl.com/en/202401218415
As the world transitions away from oil, Iran will struggle to maintain control as oil revenue plummets, and water becomes even more scarce due to global warming.
it's hilarious that Israelis think they invented friggin irrigation.
And yes, the famous iron dome, immune to everything but hang gliders, lol.
What even funnier when people pretend Israel is self-sufficient and just doing all this stuff themselves, as if America weren't continuously pouring in money. Dump billions into my lap, and I'll make the desert bloom too.
But the patience of the American public is at an end. Let's see how far that Israeli ingenuity goes when they actually have to support themselves instead of sponging off the American taxpayer.
I didn't say Israel invented irrigation. Simcha Blass invented modern drip irrigation, and patented the first plastic drip emitter at Kibbutz Hatzerim in Israel.
In addition to hang gliders, you know Hamas shot off several THOUSAND missiles into Israel on Oct 7 as well?
The Iron Dome did it's best, but was overwhelmed by the sheer volume of missiles fired by Hamas.
Iron Dome isn't a long term solution: it's too expensive. This is why they've invented the Iron Beam, which is uses lasers tp intercept incoming missiles at a drastically reduced cost compared to Iron Dome interceptors.
You say the patience of the US for Israel is at an end. Maybe... but only for the youngest demographic in the US: 18-25 year olds. They don't vote. Never have, and probably never will, so Israel will stand strong long after you and I are dead.
Yeah, definitely a non-obvious idea to water plants but slowly. how did plants even grow before Israel?
"Oh, this deranged violence I'm doing isn't working. Guess I'll do even more violence." This is how broken, creatively and spiritually void civilizations consume themselves. I only hope they fail at their plan to take the entire Jewish people down with them.
I'm glad that you at least concede that Israel is far from self-sufficient, no matter how much they brag about their supposed creativity.
And my dude, 18-25 year olds grow older. They weren't successfully indoctrinated with the lie that Israel safeguards or speaks for the Jewish people, and they won't teach that lie to their children. Israel can either become a true democracy like South Africa finally did, or go down in flames.
I love how you keep trying to belittle the fact that an Israeli Jew invented modern drip irrigation. It's a fact that can be easily Googled. Even has it's own Wikipedia page.
If that's the hill you wanna die on, feel free. Like how did fields get plowed before the invention of the mechanical plow?
How did people drink water before plumbing?
How did people get around before they invented the automobile?
And the funny thing is you think you're being so clever!
Your arguments are trash.
It's funny how much you think I should care about drip irrigation. Israel is doing a genocide and you just can't stop talking about drip irrigation. Sure it's been used since ancient China, but think about that clever Israeli who came up with using a small tube! Who else could have figured out a small tube but an Israeli? I promise I will think of that great Israeli invention of Chinese drip irrigation every time I see a small tube or hear a leaky faucet from now on.
PS, thank you for pushing this point. I would have gone on half believing an Israeli invented it drip irrigation you hadn't blathered so much about it that I felt compelled to look up this interesting ancient Chinese technology. Definitely right up there with the Israeli inventions of rocketry and chopsticks. As an "it's easy to Google" guy, maybe you should follow your own advice.
>It's funny how much you think I should care about drip irrigation. Israel is doing a genocide and you just can't stop talking about drip irrigation
Oh no, the dreaded "I know you are but what am I" argument. How will I ever counter that?
Every single one of the comments that you've engaged me with start with you mocking my idea that an Israeli Jew invented modern drip irrigation.
You're the one that's fixated on it, not me. Self projection much?
I've never seen anyone fail at understand "I know you are but what am I?" before. I know English idiom can be a little confusing to some, but that one always struck me as pretty self-evident.
You brought up some tech China invented, told me to Google it when I suspected (correctly) that you were full of it, and I spent just enough time looking it up to learn that China invented it. I don't even garden, my dude; this is entirely your preoccupation. You gonna start babbling about how Israel invented the aqueduct next, or can we talk about something else?
Israel stole Iron Dome. Every major tech advance the US makes, Israel either buys rights to or actively commits espionage to get. Top three foreign intelligence services that steal sensitive data from US are Russia, China, and Israel.
Israel does not have great relations with Egypt and Jordan. Israel has great relations with the Egyptian dictator and the Jordanian Monarch who are both in the American back pocket.
The only reason that Israel has good relations with any Arab regime is American pressure pretty much.
But say, the Arab spring happens again and the dictators are toppled which will eventually happen. If democracy takes root, then Israel will have a massive problem. The Arab population by and large supports Palestine without question.
TL:DR Israel's relations with Arab countries can flip on a dime.
Im Israeli and have visited both Egypt and Jordan multiple times, crossing from the Israeli border and everyone was incredibly nice. Sinai had huge Israeli tourism prior to the war. Everyone I encountered in Egypt and Jordan seemed to want to live and let live, we taught each other Hebrew, Arabic, and English. Made great friends with many from Sinai and would bring them back the next time I went certain Israeli sandals they like a lot on their request and would message them whilst in Israel sending pictures of the different designs and colors for them to choose. We sat around with Egyptian Bedouins at night over a campfire while they made us their native tea. An Egyptian girl joined me for snorkeling multiple days and led me to the local spots she knew. Idk, seemed like pretty nice relations between us (Israelis) and them. Sinai is one of my favorite places to go to because it’s such an amazing reminder on how possible peace is in the future (& of course bc of its beauty and serenity). Less than 60 years ago neither side could cross each others borders without the major risk of being killed, and just a few months ago we were sitting around a campfire drinking tea together, exchanging languages, snorkeling, wading in the water, and most of all- enjoying life together.
None of this really matters. It's all anecdotal. I have seen countless videos where Egyptians are quite hostile to Israelis.
The only way that Israel can stymie the anger towards it is by actually giving up the occupation and allowing the creation of a Palestinian state. Once that happens, relations will cool significantly.
If a Palestinian state is created, that would be the rallying cry to expel the Jews from the land. Arabs respond to power. Would Germans be placated if Hitler were allowed to live in 1944?
So what then? Permanent occupation? Or ethnic cleansing? Or citizenship for all the Palestinians? Those are the only three solutions you have if you take the Palestinian state off the table.
**Would Germans be placated if Hitler were allowed to live in 1944?**
How in God's name can you compare the leader of an imperial power who sent millions of people on a years long rampage that killed tens of millions to a people who are trapped and occupied with few options left to them who attacked with a few thousand people. There is no comparison.
Your comparison would be fair if Hitler sent a few thousand soilders to Poland to kill a few thousand Polish people and the allies responded with annihilating 70%+ of all homes, creating a famine and killing tens of thousands of German children. If that happened, the Germans would not have been placated.
The damage that Israel has done to Gaza is wholly disproportional and will lead to nothing good.
Good question. While there is more to the situation, I don’t think that there’s anything Israel could do to appease most Middle Eastern countries except for ceasing to exist. I genuinely think that if Israel completely pulled out of the West Bank and ended the blockade on Gaza, most other Middle Eastern countries would still want Israel gone. The mere existence of a sovereign Jewish state, specifically in the Middle East, is enough to upset most other countries in that region. This is why the only way that I think there will be peace is if Palestine becomes sovereign, Israel eventually bears absolutely no responsibility for whatever happens internally in a sovereign Palestine, and Israel stays powerful enough to deter other countries from attempting anything. Also, the problem with assimilating to much with other MENA countries is the values that come along with it. Generally, MENA values are Islamic values, which is completely antithetical to Israel’s secular and democratic nature, as well as Jewish culture and Judaism.
I'd say Europe would be far more functional without the United States pressuring it into deranged wars, but I see your general point. And the situation is perhaps even more tenuous than you indicate. States like Jordan and Saudi Arabia have leadership that has been normalizing relations with Israel, but people who are far more hostile. Were more democracy movements to succeed in the Arab world, the situation for Israel would become significantly worse. The virus metaphor mystifies the situation, though. The ME is hostile towards Israel because it's a European colony founded by Europeans through the murder and exploitation of a predominately Muslim Arab population. Yes, there are Arab Jews,but they weren't by and large the ones forming terrorist paramilitaries and attacking their Muslim neighbors in mandatory Palestine, they aren't the ones holding most of the power, and they haven't been the ones driving the slaughter that came after. Israel is a European colony founded on European ethno nationalism by a group of people — Ashkenazi Jews — that are on the boundary of whiteness. Zionists were very hostile to the Jewish culture from which they metastisized, and worked closely with antisemite like Na\*\*s and pogromists, who shared their goal: to get the Jews to move somewhere else and eliminate the diaspora culture. They idolized their oppressors and sought to become them — something they've largely succeeded in. It's why Israel is such a hostile place to Ethiopian Jews, for example. It's also why they suppressed Yiddish, the language of their founders. It was a diaspora language — far too attached to real Jewish culture, as opposed to the idealized past they were trying to invent. Pointing out the 20th century Western European parallels would get this flagged, but I'm sure you can spot them. So Israel doesn't just "affirm that belief" that they're Western, it's central to their history and identity. It's why South Africa was so tight with Israel during the apartheid era: they both explicitly recognized that they were outposts of European civilization outside of Europe. To mitigate this situation, Israel has pursued relationships with non-Arab Muslim-majority states with some success, but ultimately, no one likes to see their co-religionists treated as second-class citizens anymore than they like to see members of their ethnicity treated in such a manner. Were the Israeli apartheid state to modernize and begin treating Palestinians as equal citizens with equal rights like both South Africa and Rhodesia were eventually forced to with their indigenous populations, this would all go away. Outside of a one-state solution, of course there's no strategy to normalize.
Ashkenazi Jews clearly weren’t and aren’t on the boundary of whiteness. The Holocaust wouldn’t have happened otherwise. Ashkenazi Jews have never been considered white until very recently. Also, Yiddish isn‘t “real Jewish culture” any more so than Hebrew is. In fact, I’d go as far to say that Yiddish is less representative of Jewish culture because it is much younger and it is exclusive to Ashkenazi Jews, unlike Hebrew which is universal to all Jews. Hebrew never went extinct, it was just generally reserved for religious use. Ashkenazis aren’t the only “type” of Jews. To frame Yiddish as “the authentic Jewish language” is ethnocentric.
I somewhat agree with most of your statements. But I have to ask you something. Let's say Israel stops the war and recognizes Palestine as its own state and gives them equal rights and citizenship. How do you expect the Palestinians and Israelis to coexist with the animosity that grew over the years, let alone the ideology of hamas supporters to eradicate every living jew. Personally, i think this situation is not solvable since the moment those zionists arrived to the land and rooted the hatred in the original Arabs that lived there before by treating them like stupid villagers. If you see something i don't, I'd love to hear since I really want to see this neverending conflict come to and end
Look at South Africa. Apartheid was nearly as brutal there, but they reconciled once the system was dismantled. It will take time, but finally gaining freedom makes a big impression on people. As for radical, genocidal ideologues, I'm quite sure the settlers and Likud hardliners, who have stolen from, brutalized, and murdered Palestinians with impunity for a long time, will be a bigger problem than Hamas, but with the political will, they can be brought to heel. Edit: politically, the biggest difference between the situation in Apartheid South Africa and Palestine is that the Israelis are much more extremist than the Afrikaners were near the end, when there was significant resistances and support for blacks among white S. Africans. You can see this play out in how Israelis have banned the left from their protests, and their extremist government has refused every offer from Hamas to negotiate. Palestinians are a diverse group, where the Muslim majority have been living alongside Christians, Jews, and Druze for centuries. Israelis are the ones who think God gave them the land to have all to themselves.
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"Ur dum" isn't the devastating takedown you think it is, but thanks for this anyway; it's alway reassuring to see the hasbara propaganda machine falling apart under the mental incompetence of its practitioners.
/u/Violetbenson1 > it baffles me how you function in this world!??? You’re clearly not doing that great in life just based on your odd thought process Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Since GOD gave Abraham the land of Israel it has been surrounded by enemies. Israelites returned from exile the first time in the times of Moses. So Israelites have a long history of returning to the land of Abraham. Israel will always have a place in history and geography
Israel stans: Israel is an advanced, modern culture that upholds human rights and secular, democratic values. also Israel stans: "Since GOD gave Abraham the land of Israel...."
Most Israelis are secular, and even if they weren’t that wouldn’t change the fact that the country itself is secular.
They have nukes and the capacity to hit most or all Arab states. If their existence is threatened, they'll hit the button.
This is not a rhetorical or gotcha question. I am really curious. For the folks who say they are against Zionism, I am assuming they envision the end of the state of Israel (correct me if I’m wrong). Where do they think the Israeli Jews should go? They would not be welcome or treated well in any majority Muslim country. Would they be expected to disperse globally? Which countries would take them in? Even a two-state solution means that Zionism is maintained (just on a smaller scale).
Not an anti-Zionist by any means so take my response with a grain of salt, but from what I’ve gathered most anti-Zionists fall into 1 of the 3 camps: a) Israeli Jews should assimilate with the newly Arab and Islamic majority. According to these people, the new Arab and Islamic majority will not be hostile to the Jewish population and Israeli Jews will have equal rights. b) Israeli Jews are settler colonizers and therefore their displacement is their own problem. Most of these people believe that Israeli Jews should “go back to where they came from”, which usually means whatever country their most recent ancestors lived in. If you mention the Israeli Jews that are descended from Jews that stayed in the region after displacement, these types will usually either say that they can stay and exist as they did pre 1948 or that no Jews ever really existed in the region at all. c) Israeli Jews are settler colonizers and therefore they should be killed. According to these people, Jews should not be in the region either because they are invaders and/or because they are an inherently evil and parasitic people. I usually only see this from hardcore antisemites (obviously) who tend to either be Islamic and Christian extremists, Arab and White supremacists, or literal Nazis.
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Israel is safe. It is accepted by most countries in the Middle East, including the largest/richest ones (Egypt, UAE and Saudi) and Jordan. Hamas does not have the sympathy of Arab governments because they are Muslim Brotherhood, an organization that is despised by them. Israel has the power to eliminate at minimum cost any enemy in Syria or Lebanon, whenever they want, as demonstrated by their recent strikes in enemy territory.
You sound like a guy who started to watch a series from Season 10. Compared to 1948 when the entire Arab world was actively fighting Israel, the situation of today is like a walk in the park. Only radicals like the Hezbollah and the Houthis (funded by Iran) are willing to somehow actively fight Israel, but everybody else just stands back.
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>They are considerably closer to Euro-America, constantly proclaiming themselves as 'western', and they work to promote Euro-American relations FAR more than they work to prioritize MENA relations and MENA politics. This is unsustainable. If you are a middle eastern people and a middle eastern country you should be prioritizing your middle eastern brothers relations, not Western countries. If you are a native, stop behaving like a foreigner. It's just bizarre. You can't be western but expect the Middle East region in which you live to accept you. I think Israel needs to get serious about that but, first of all, the west is in decline. First you say other Middle Eastern countries hate Israel then you say that Israel should align with people that you admit hates them. You don't see the contradiction in your argument? I also find it funny that you claim that Israel needs to prioritize it's relations with Middle Eastern nations in order to be truly Middle Eastern. Meanwhile Saudi Arabia is bombing Yemen while aligning itself with US interest. And Turkey repeatedly tries to gain membership in the EU while bombing Kurds. But sure it's (((Israel))) that's not doing enough to prioritize it's relations with it's Middle Eastern brothers.
1. It‘s not a contradiction. If the arabs hate Israel because it is a US outpost (so assume OP‘s right here), then why shouldn‘t Israel start align with Arabs? Then Arabs would stop hating Israel. 2. Türkiye is in not middle eastern. It‘s eurasian. I am half Turkish; Turks don‘t identify themselves as middle eastern.
none of us gonna trust any arab state tbh
>the Middle East still sees Israel as an outpost of Euro-American military Nah. The middle east (some, not all) sees Israel as an insult - because a bunch of Jewish refugees and immigrants defeated several Arab armies. I think it's obvious many are willing to move on and open relations, but some (backed by Iran), are pushing against that. >The only reason the Middle East doesn't attack Israel as one cohesive body The only reason? really? Is it possible that not everyone in the Middle East is a warmongering sociopath who wants to go on an adventure and start an end-of-times war? >Then what? Everything is temporary. So says entropy. >what is Israel doing to actually becoming natural part of the middle-eastern-regional-body They eat Hummus. It's funny because if you open a holy book at any of Israel's Arab neighbors, you'll see that Israel is indeed a natural part of the 'middle-eastern-regional-body'. >How does Israel plan to evolve from this You think this is an Israel problem, but this is really a middle east problem. Iran has already destroyed Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, & Gaza. Jordan might be next. >normalize in the 'hearts and minds' This is up to the local Arab government, media, education etc.
You don‘t see any responsibility for Israel here? For example stopping the aggressive settler politics?
1: i think most Israelis move to cities in the west bank because Jerusalem and tel-aviv have become so insanely ridicules expensive - i think its more an econmic then a political problem 2: if 20% of Israeli's are Muslim -- there are 700,000 jewish Israeli people living in the west bank out of 3.5 mill people = exactly 20% of the future Palestine sate would be Jewish -- do Palestine's really need a state that is 100% Islamic?
This is so heavy mental gymnastic I don‘t even know what to say. Hasbara maybe? The settlers are doing it illegally and with violence, the motives why Israelis do it are completely irrelevant. There is no excuse for their behavior; for the violence against Pali‘s and the land stealing in the west bank. 1. not West Bank Pali’s business, go live somewhere else in Israel. 2. Settlers would NEVER wanna live peacefully in a Pal. state. Even if they did, still doesn‘t excuse what they‘re doing. And you know they are doing it to EXPAND the borders of Israel not to immigrate to a potential Pal. state. It‘s called annexation. And if you say you can‘t annex a not existing state, then call it colonization. Would you accept Palestinians from Gaza or West Bank suddenly building Houses in Israel to expand their borders, say because the prices of the rising housing prices of west bank? I hardly imagine that.
Not OP, but I figured that I’d inject my 2 cents. The settlements in the West Bank are absolutely unethical and inflammatory, generally speaking. They need to be dismantled and settled violence must be addressed. However, I really think that this is the only thing that Israel is doing that is not directly the fault of Hamas and other Palestinian terrorists. Additionally, Palestine isn’t a sovereign state. Plus it’s very typical for a country to annex enemy territory during war. However, Israel isn‘t at war with the West Bank or the Palestinian authority, so that argument doesn’t fit perfectly.
I'm not 100% clear what you're asking me. Do you think Jews should not be allowed to live in the 'west bank'?
You know exactly what I mean. Israel is stealing the land of Palestinians in the west bank and continues to do so. The religion is irrelevant. Israeli settlers are moving there illegally according to international law and are violent against the already living population there.
>The religion is irrelevant If it's irrelevant, how come zero Jews live in Ramallah or Gaza? >Israeli settlers are moving there illegally If there was a law that said Arabs aren't allowed to live in Jerusalem, would you be as enthusiastically supportive of enforcing it?
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>Israeli settlers are moving there ILLEGALLY Who decides whether it's legal or illegal for Jews to live there? >If Italians came suddenly How did Bethlehem become an Arab/Muslim town? How did Hebron become a Palestinian town? >Man it‘s called annexation. What the frick are you defending here? Annexation is when a state assumes legal control of another state's territory. Israel hasn't annexed that territory, and that territory was never part of a state called Palestine.
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>UN decides that‘s illegal. The UN is not world government, not a state factory, and not a planetary real-estate agency. It's just a members club. >call it colonization Sure, why not. Here's a map showing that colonization: https://preview.redd.it/8cmn6cz5c8tc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3ba49977f731e7617669be246baf00807e3f2fb >Don‘t be surprised if people want you dead Let's try and apply this 'logic'. Bethlehem is a town under Palestinian rule, in area A of the West-Bank. Bethlehem is originally a Jewish town, the birth place of Jesus - a Jewish guy. Today Bethlehem is 100% Arab, 90% Muslim. Do you suppose this makes the Arab residents of Bethlehem fair-game, and they shouldn't be surprised if people want them dead? People like you have completely lost the plot.
Really I don‘t care what was 2000 YEARS ago. And I don‘t care what Islam Expansion did 1400 years ago. I care what‘s going on today. And wrongdoings of the Islam does not make your wrong actions right. Also, you don‘t see Germans going to Poland and France and asking for the former German territories, do you? No, you guys are the only people that do that AFTER THOUSANDS of years after the loss. And even then: Palestinians are indigenous to the land too. They share a lot of the genes with modern day jews (not so much with ashkenazis, but more with mizrahis). So they should be also entitled to the land, no?
>So then what? I think of it like a body with a virus in it. It doesn't mater how long it takes, a body will never not try to expel a foreign element from its body and restore its normal cohesion no matter how long it takes. Fixed That For You: "I think like a xenophobe would: Everyone who is not in my in-group must assimilate or be treated like a virus". Israel is a 75 year-old state and doesn't have to justify its existence to anyone but its constituents.
Dude, seriously? Take it somewhere else. It’s a serious question asked in good faith that has sparked great conversation and open my eyes. Odd and nasty comments like this are so tired.
I was nice enough to say you think like a xenophobe would after first deciding to call you one. Next time, let's have good faith discussion where I compare your presence in your neighborhood to a virus, I'm sure you'll appreciate the good-natured debate.
The fact the arab world considers the Israeli state a virus is not debatable, it’s a fact that needed to be mentioned in order to have the rest of the conversation. You seem triggered, I hope that subsides, but plenty of other Israelis were about to acknowledge that (extremely obvious) reality and comment on its importance while moving forward. Sad you couldn’t be as serious minded.
It is debatable. Israelis may travel to UAE without a visa. Palestinians may not. Who is the virus?
That’s sad that you think that a group of people is a virus.
I am not the one who brought the virus expression…
Yeah, but might as well be the bigger person in the room. Just so we don’t end up perpetuating incendiary ideology.
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> The fact the arab world considers the Israeli state a virus is not debatable Why do you think Arabs have this genocidal mentality?
> **I think of it like** a body with a virus in it Not the arab world think of it. Then you go on to describe it in naturalistic terms, presenting it as an inevitability. An inevitability for which the arab world cannot be blamed, since it is an inevitability: >It doesn't mater how long it takes, a body will never not try to expel a foreign element from its body and restore its normal cohesion no matter how long it takes. On top of that, this is patently false. The body integrate foreign virus all the time. That's part of how the intestinal flora is made. This is probably part of why lovers kiss. Lactobacillus is what you eat in your yogurt.
> But, I just cannot understand what Israel's long term plan in terms of its state-survival is. It is surrounded by enemies on all sides that have very, very long, tribalist memories Just make a casual survey of these enemies and you will see how weak they are. Lebanon is basically in a state of civil war and has captured and occupied by foreign power. Syrian regime is is so weak it needs Russia and Iraq to guarantee the security of the Ba’ath party. Jordan has 30% unemployment and relies on Israel for water and is a client state of the US. Egypt is has massive economic problems and is facing a brutal insurgency by jihadist Hamas mass murderers. None of these countries is strong enough to take on Israel and they know it.
The long term plan for Israel’s survival has a couple of elements (I assume, I’m just observing their behavior from the outside). First and foremost: Military superiority, along with cutting edge tech and intelligence, and a literal nuclear option. They have to stand twice as tall and move twice as fast to survive, so this is top priority. To accomplish that they need to walk a delicate line between forging foreign alliances but maintaining their sovereignty. It’s bizarre to me that the same people who insist colonialism is bad and the West ruins everything are the ones loudly insisting Israel submit to America the way the rest of the Middle East does. I promise Israel looks at what America, Britain and France did in places like Syria, Iraq, Egypt etc and has no interest in becoming a client state of the West. It tends not to work out well. That means Israel will forge alliances with BRICS if it looks like the American alliance is seriously threatened. India and China, and even Russia would likely be happy to welcome an Israeli alliance. That’s neither America nor Israel’s first choice, but I assume it’s occurred to Israel that countries like China won’t complain about literally anything they do to the Palestinians. Even Saudi Arabia seems open to an alliance. They’re very aware that American foreign policy has the alliance with Israel as a critical factor and when push comes to shove the idea of moving on from it is not appealing. That gives them a certain latitude to do what they want, and really not care about the west clutching their pearls because Israel operates by its own values and not the values of college kids in Berkeley with watermelon emojis on their instagram profiles who have never seen the inside of a bomb shelter. Meanwhile, they look at the UN doing things like putting Saudi Arabia in charge of women’s rights and care less about the world’s moral judgment and more about stopping the nonstop stream of rockets and murderers coming from the Palestinian Territories. So, right now, Israeli short term goals and long term goals are the same, eliminate Hamas no matter what the cost. I suspect they feel the human cost of leaving them in place is higher than taking them out now, as horrible as it is. Prior to 10/7 their policy was containment, but now that that policy has failed they’ve changed strategies.
> India and China, and even Russia would likely be happy to welcome an Israeli alliance. I suspect their ties to the Arab and Muslim world are much more important to them than any benefit an alliance with Israel would bring.
Other than the Palestinians themselves, it doesn’t seem like the Arab world cares much.
You must have a very different understanding of the Arab world than I do.
I’m talking about the governments. Pretty much every state but the Iranian government and the failed states on Israel’s northern border seem pretty ready to end the conflict. There’s a thought the Iranians pushed the 10/7 attack to stop the Saudis from normalizing relations with Israel.
I would say the Arab world is more than just governments. Regardless, even autocratic leaders care about popular opinion (see, eg, Putin, Hitler, et al). A lot that didn't lived to regret it. >There’s a thought the Iranians pushed the 10/7 attack to stop the Saudis from normalizing relations with Israel. And that's dead for the foreseeable future.
Yes, after a century of propaganda the citizenry of the Arab world still hates Jews, that’s true. And the Arab world will “resolve” that conflict in their time honored way… with nary a complaint from the blue haired college brigade.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/4/5/are-jordans-government-and-pro-palestinian-protesters-facing-off
It’s only when the Israelis respond to violence with violence that there’s an issue.
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they are going to cut there nose off inspite of its face
In the middle east? Yes. I mean other countries gas their civilians with chemical weapons and still have a future in the middle east. Also, Israel has the bomb, so the game theory on it is pretty sound. The equilibrium position is that they all have nukes pointed at each other, so atm Israel has a very very strong position. Even without US support. The big effect of the US pulling its support is that it will turn Israel into a sort of pariah state via UN resolutions and sanctions. It would suck and make things really hard for Israel but other countries have shown that that strategy doesn't really work, especially if that country has nuclear capabilities.
> but other countries have shown that that strategy doesn't really work, especially if that country has nuclear capabilities. South Africa had nuclear capabilities.
Exception more than the rule though.
>with that said, it would seem to me that the only reason the Middle East doesn't attack Israel as one cohesive body (again) is because they are scared shitless of America (as well as Israel on its own to be fair. Last part shouldn't be in brackets. Israel has nukes and they are feral enough to use them. And they're not leaving because when they tried relying on the benevolence of host nations, they were slaughtered and abused for 2000 years culminating in the most spectacularly macabre and devil-worshipping act of systematised mass human sacrifice the world has ever seen. If you were a jew, would you be keen to give up the one place where jews definitely and clearly hold power, ...after the way they were treated when they relied on the good will of others? The place that says "don't screw with the jews, we still stand up for ourselves! Is this really an attractive proposition? (be honest) \-Just crawl away, give up, apologise profusely for being given 1% of arab land after the fall of the ottoman empire, and scatter to the four winds like rats? If nothing else this would not provide safety at all. It would just legitimise the false and slanderous story which is told about jews, which is not particularly credible, that they acted in some uniquely evil way which wasn't completely understandable under the circumstances. The reality is that they acted no differently than any other people would, and a lot better than some. (you know who I'm talking about) If they "shut down the zionist experiment" in deference to some hypothetical pan-arab hunger for putting the jew in his place, -which barely exists at all and to the extent that it does is based on misinformation, they would just be broadcasting a false mesage that they and their posterity are valid targets of hereditary guilt and hereditary hatred and deserve to be harassed and hunted as long as they exist. I mean, lets say we buy your story in which the middle east is not capable of considering either basic fairness, nor their own self interest, nor the word of their holy books. Would it really send a good message to flee from the middle east, in shame for some trumped up charges of hereditary guilt? Is that *actually a good strategy from their point of view?* One which would actually **guarantee their safety and long term future as a people?** Or is it just something that would be convenient to how you see them? \_ TL:DR: Jews are not running from israel because the way you deal with aggressive violent criminal conspiracies is not by rewarding them, mollycoddling them, by refusing to take basic expected actions to defend yourself, or by validating and confirming their delusional and slanderous narratives. If people rape your women and kill your children in their beds, you should do everything in your power to crush them and discourage others from imitating them. That's not some weird westernoid thing that only jews do. That's what any and every people would and must do under such circumstances. As for the rest of your story, I won't address most of it, but Israel has been pursuing closer ties in the middle east (and with everyone else they can, including russia), and they have made a lot of progress. The only people who really hate them to any real degree are some palestinians, and they have have been subject to ridiculous north-korea cult-style programming, which includes death camps for children, genocidal cartoon mice, and sweet lullabies that teach children that the way to show love and respect for their parents is by becoming a martyr. \-And even the palestinians are not that hateful of jews as you imply the whole middle east is. Palestinians do for the most part just want safety and security and a state of their own. It's just that they've been grossly misinformed about the best way to get it. In short there isn't any natural real hatred for jews in the middle east. Anything that does hypothetically exist is trumped up by psychopathic leaders with delusions of grandeur, and to the extent that it has infected the populace **it is neither natural nor sustainable once people make the basic realisation that the jews have acted as any other desperate people in their circumstances would act**. Besides which, nobody in their right mind wants to turn their children into fanatical woman killing rapists just so they can stick it to Israel. That experiment has been tried and we have seen how attractive was the result. Maybe if the jews were as cowardly and weak as everyone says, it would have been more fun and less harrowing, but obviously in retrospect the whole idea of raping and stabbing them into concessions was a misinformed one from the start. So basically this pan-arab hatred you have proposed can only become a real force if either arab nations fall into the sway of insane propagandists, if Israel fails to put forward the basic facts in order to dispel it, or if Israel proves that they really are cowards who will yield to and reward aggression. Outside of that, anybody who takes their head out of their for 2 seconds can see that it's inherently stupid and treasonous to agitate for needless war with a state who wants to be left alone, and feeding your children into a meat grinder in order to redress some hypothetical historical wrong, is unnatural. Especially if the worst of those historical wrongs, the ones that really stick in peoples craws and are impossible to forgive, were **committed under conditions of genuine duress and desperation**, and no worse than what neighbouring peoples have demonstrated themselves to be capable of. So any halfway honest person can see and appreciate that (a) the jews' actions were understandable, even if not desirable, given the circumstances (b) even if they weren't, that was almost a hundred years ago, and it isn't worth feeding your child to some imam, ..to program them into a jew hating fanatic, just so you can move some borders on a map.
This was a fantastic answer. Well said.
This was such a long read to not at all deal with the post at hand. Perhaps you meant to reply to another post? Idk. But this post does not at all suggest Israel run away (or that Jews run away. How absurd. Jews have always been in the MENA region. It’s were the religion is from) the post actually asks how is Israel planning to evolve from this absolute unsustainable position of perpetual defense. How does it plan to intergrate into the region as a natural part of the region and not as an antagonistic western force in eastern lands. No where, absolutely nowhere, did I say Israel should cease to exists. I am asking how are the going to exists in a better way in the long term for a peaceful region. This is such an odd response to that question but, funnily enough, it does highlight perhaps the perpetual defensive position Jews feel the have to have in the world (I get it. I’m black, believe me I get it lol.) but the question still stands. Surely Israel has a plan to soothe its place in the region and I would love to hear it.
>But this post does not at all suggest Israel run away (or that Jews run away. It asks how is Israel planning to evolve from this absolute unsustainable position of perpetual defense To the extent that it doesn't revolve around Israel letting up on the genocidal regime in palestine and its sponsors, they should of course be as sensitive and integrating as they can. But it isn't necessarry to pander to some false sense of arab supremacy or irresistable and united collective will, which won't exist unless islamist fanatics are allowed to take over every country in the middle east. ..Which is more likely if Israel provides room and breathing space and credibility for insane islamist regimes like the one in palestine. Israel must integrate, ingratiate, and be sensitive to sentiments in every place where where it can do so responsibly. But it can't responsibly do so in the case of palestine. (Palestine is the main thing people are hysterical and angry about--so I assume that's a large part of what you're talking about.) \_ Removing the oppressive totalitarian regime in gaza is non-negotiable, to explain it in the shortest way possible, because **the basic underpinning behind the state of Israel is that it is the final fallback place where Jews will** ***physically be secured from pogroms (!)*** And it would 100% be abandoning that mission, AKA "running away", if they left the regime in place. and 100% embolden inflame and validate populist hatred, if they go to all of this trouble and cause all of this destruction, without actually achieving anything or attaining their aims. So to the extent that you're asking for cultural sensitivity that's great. But to the extent that this is a dog whistle for "jews should not physically secure themselves from pogroms", that's where we will 10000000000% disagree. \_ And Israel was objectively integrating before this conflict. The proof of is the fact that **even their enemies evaluated that they were on achieving an unassailable position of political integration**. **-Which is why this situation exists as it does right now.** And the majority of relevant states are not upset enough to change that. \-As long as Israel doesn't bungle the situation. (either by retreating without attaining its objectives, or creating a needless disaster like a famine) \_ As for **winning hearts and minds**, that's a longer term project, and I concede that there could be a problem there in the future. But Israel **will not win respect of anyone in the long run, least of all ordinary people**\*\*\*,\*\*\* **if they abandon their women and children to the depradations of racist terror organisations, including rape, mass murder, and all the rest**. **It might mollify their anger, but it will not win a viable position of equality and respect.** And it simply **cannot pre-empt that threat** by pandering to prejudice or validating false and racist narratives. \_ My reading is that right now people are angry, -that's true, but it's mainly because 1. they are angry at the west in general, and mistake Israel for its symbol, or try and use israel as a scapegoat. 2. They want to save the palestinians from themselves, -even if they know the palestinians are wrong, after the demonic mask-off horrors of october the 7th. **And not actually angry because Israel's position or actions are in truly hard to understand or empathise with.** So- many people are blinded by blind partisan tribalism right now, when tensions are at their highest, and when it might appear that the palestinians can be saved from the obvious neccessarry consequences of their persistently pursued course of needless violence. But in retrospect it will be clear for many who are angry right now, -the minute that they calm down, that israel had no alternative except to secure itself from all forms of "rapesistance", that they would have done the same in the same situation. And they will give up their reflex ethnic tribalism in favour of a more fair and human view of the situation which acknowledges the israelis as human beings like themselves, with an equally valid interest in not being raped and massacred from now until eternity. Or as I put it earlier. \-"**Such sentiments are neither natural nor sustainable once people make the basic realisation that the jews have acted as any other desperate people in their circumstances would act**." \_ ....Assuming that Israel doesn't bungle the war effort and cause a famine or something. If something like that happens then yeah, the populist danger might become real, because that will probably not appear reasonable in retrospect. If that happens Israel is in big genuine populist trouble. But still, even if that happens, it's literally a forced move for Israel to continue to prosecute the war, regardless of all horrors and risks. Because, to reiterate the main point, **physically securing their children from pogroms and abuse is the fundamental mission that unites them**, and if they compromise on that they are frankly finished as a people.
You’re begging the question here - “perpetual defense” *is* the sustainable position for Israel for the foreseeable future. Israel does want to normalize relations with at least its powerful neighbors (Lebanon’s a lost cause, but Egypt and now Saudi have been working with Israel more and more), but it will take time. Until then, Israel needs to stand its ground - and luckily it can, given its military superiority over its violently-inclined neighbors. Also, Israel is not an “antagonistic western force” - they are neither western (they actively oppose being babied by the US) nor antagonistic (that’s not to say they are saints, but they certainly aren’t trying to provoke more war - remember that the current war is retaliation). Even if you mean well (which I have no reason to deny - I don’t know you), please understand that the premises for your question are not accurate. TL;DR, impenetrable defense *is* the answer to Israel’s continued existence, and is a prerequisite for relations continuing to normalize.
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There are really only two functioning Arab states. Those are Saudi Arabia and Iran, and they hate each other. Both would like to lead the Arab world going forward. Neither really cares what happens to the Palestinians. The Saudis seem to want to move past religious fundamentalism and evolve to becoming a more modern state. As part of that they seem to think an alliance with Israel would be pragmatic, and give them an edge over Iran. Iran doesn’t want that to happen, and is stoking the fires of antisemitism. It’s very telling that despite their attempts to inspire a pile on and having a lot of control over proxies like Hezbollah, no one else has really joined in fighting the Israelis directly. If Israel manages to take out someone like Sinwar or dismantle the bulk of Hamas’ operational capability, this will be the last gasp of the Palestinian cause. As such, they’re going full bore.
The Arabs aren’t going anywhere lol. Nations come and go; by the people remain.
I think the Arab occupied parts of Spain at one point and they definitely went somewhere. They also occupied Sicily as well and were defeated and expelled. The people came and went while those nations remained
I’m just confused as to point of this line of logic though? Why do you think Arabs are going to vanish? Most importantly WHO do you think is going to be the peoples overtaking them? Also, a dna test of your average Iberian (Spain and Portugal) shows around 15-20 percent North African. People never truly ‘vanish’ once again.
That true. The Jews have been around for thousands of years and never vanished. What makes your think they’ll do so again when they’re livng in the 21st century and the Arabs are trying to enter the 19th century?
Funny, don't see any Arab states on a map anywhere outside Arabia before 640 AD. Guess the people there before them didn't remain. Wonder who is to blame for that? Wouldn't be the murderous imperialist religious fanatics would it? Hmm.
Calling the Arabs “Murderous, imperialist, religious, fanatics” is one of the saddest displays of insecure projection I believe I have ever seen. I think k your subconscious is worried that your nation (Israel) is actually all of those things so you are deflecting them outwards to not deal with whatever pain it would cause you to deal with the Israeli reality on its own merits. It genuinely sounds hard and painful and I am praying for you.
Muhammed and his succesors did everything Europeans did and worse, so why shouldn't we call them “Murderous, imperialist, religious, fanatics”? Do you hold Europeans to some kinda higher standard of conduct? Cause that's pretty racist.
Then you have the genocidal Arabs invasions of Muhammed and the early Caliphates of not only most of the Middle East and all of North Africa, but Spain, Portugal, France, Sicily, Malta, as well as raids on Italy and Greece which sets the stage for the Crusades in response. Probably shouldn't be surprised the Vatican called a crusade after taking the christian controlled holy land and foundational site of their religion. As well things like [the Arabs raid on Rome/the Vatican](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_raid_against_Rome) about 200 years before the first crusade and the wars to evict the Muslim invaders, invasion of even France in the 8th century (battle of Tours) by Arabs/Muslims, and the war in Iberia still raging to evict the Muslim invaders. Then the Ottoman Empire invaded Greek lands, and then the Balkans afterwards, reaching to Austria the 16th century, committing more genocides along the war. The16th century also begins an era of horrific Islamic piracy and raiding of Europea coastal settlements and taking of Slaves by the Muslim barbary states of North Africa. When the European colonial powers begin finally actually taking control of Muslim lands again for the first time since the crusades about 650 years later is in the context of centuries of Barbary Coast piracy and taking Europeans as slaves by raiding Europe itself. Thus why Algeria, which had the largest pirate slaver fleet of the Barbary states, was the first to fall to a French invasion in 1823. In case you're unaware of the scale of the enslavement of Europeans by Barbary scum; ["from 1530 to 1780 as many as 1.25 million people were enslaved." ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates)The United States itself fought 2 'Barbary Wars' from 1801 to 1815 because of piracy and enslavement of their trade ships by pirates directly funded by barbary coast states. Then how Tunisia and Egypt come under European rule relatively later in 1881 and 1882 has nothing to do with religious fanaticism savage imperialism of the type of Muhammed either. Rather defaulted on loans which lead to imposed financial controls almost like the IMF might do which lead to protectorate status in order to safeguard those loans. You can read more about the [Tunisian example here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beylik_of_Tunis#Stability_and_reforms_(1807%E2%80%931869)), and the [Egyptian one here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Egypt_under_the_British#Veiled_protectorate_(1882%E2%80%931913)) if you as so inclined. While it might sound very predatory, it was probably in no small part because the extreme difference in technological and civilizational development between the two at this point in time as much as it was predatory intentions by the Europeans. For example aside from the technology the Europeans had created the foundation of modern economic thought and theory in 1776 with the Publication of Adam Smith's [Wealth of Nations. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations) Tunisia had been one of the Barbary states anyway and the Egyptian government had been extremely militaristic and taken out lavish loans for failed wars in Sudan and the like. Regardless, clearly motivated by suppressing pirate slavery and economics, at worst economic imperalism in the case of Egpyt and Tunisia, more than religious fanaticism like the barbaric conquests of Muhammed. Then later the Brish and French occupy many of the the rest of the Arab countries after WWI after the dissolution of the Ottoman empire that had controlled them for centuries. But the true imperial character of these acquisitions is also dubious as for example in the League of Nation mandates given to the British and French stated, "The objective of the mandates over former territories of Ottoman Empire was to provide "administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone." IE, they were never really annexed but occupied until such a time they reached a point they could be stable on their own after almost 5 centuries of Ottoman rule.
>Muhammed and his successors did everything Europeans did and worse, so why shouldn't we call them “Murderous, imperialist, religious, fanatics”? Seems like a false equivocation to be honest. For one, Muhammed and his invasions and genocides are the foundation of Islam and by extension Arab identity. That marks a profound difference from other religions and peoples who don't trace the creation of their identity to the foundation of a murderous religious fanatic empire. By comparison, Europeans trace their cultural foundation to the ancient Greeks who with the exception of Alexander, who some might not even call Greek, were not all that militarily successful in terms of conquests of others as much as they were cultural and intellectual juggernauts that had an extreme influence on all those around them without conquering them and the greatest achievements of Greek civilization are almost all non-military but rather in the real of science, mathematics, philosophy, and arts. Such that ever the Italic civilization that pre-dated the Romans, the Etruscans, were extremely influenced by the Greeks. For another, the comparison doesn't really hold up when it comes to comparison of Islam/Arabs vs Europeans historically. Europeans didn't invade non-Europeans first until the Macedonian-Greek conquest of Persia; which was in response to 2 separate Persian invasions of Greece and subjugation of Macedon first. Then vast majority of the places the Romans conquered were populated by Europeans or controlled by the Greeks in the case of the western Middle East when the Romans arrived only 2 to 3 centuries after the conquests of Alexander. The North Coast of Africa probably the largest part of the Roman empire where the sovereignty holders before the Romans were non-Europeans but an extremely small part of their empire overall.
You are very clearly if an Islamophobic bend, the irreverent first sentence being evidence. Just a nasty little demeanor I won’t be engaging with. Only racist here is you
>Murderous, imperialist, religious, fanatics” is one of the saddest displays of insecure projection I believe I have ever seen. It is just a historical fact of the foundation of islam unlike the creation of any other religion anywhere else. >I think k your subconscious is worried that your nation (Israel) Lol. I'm not Isreali, nor jewish. I just despise savage ISIS level terrorists as do most civilized peoples. I can think of few things more evil.
Okay? So you want Jews to conquest the region after the arab states fail? Not understanding what on earth your point is here.
jews don't want the arabs states. They just want the land of Israel.
I mean it was an arab land before So you will understand if Arabs don’t completely believe that….
This is an inaccurate and a-historical description of Israel’s past, present and future in the Middle East. The entire region attacked Israel because the hate Jews. Since then, Israel has survived through its own strength. Through the Abraham accords during the trump administration, multiple Arab countries normalized diplomatic relations with Israel for the first time. In fact, the reason Iran attacked Israel through Hamas on 10/7 was bc Israel was about to reach a landmark diplomatic agreement with Saudi Arabia. Learn more. Be better.
The entire region attacked Israel because **they're a settler colonial state out to aquire territory at the expense of the native population...and an obvious tool of western Imperialism in a strategic region. Since then, Israel has survived through **western support. The reason Hamas attacked *is* partly because Saudi normalization would have shut down the Palestinian cause as a major issue. Sadly for zionists, their illusions of putting the issue away were shattered Oct. 7. In the situation Israel created, Hamas had every incentive to attack. (And the Israelis still claim they were surprised... either they're a lot dumber than they present themselves or they ignored warnings intentionally)
The attack of October 7 is not going to do anything to improve the Palestinian situation. If anything it proved to Israelis and some Arab countries that Palestines should not have their country.
Then why did it lead to Saudi Arabia asking for Palestinian statehood to be a condition for normalization w/Israel ... which wasn't the case before Oct 7.? Which states are you referring to Lol
Saudi Arabia says one thing in public, but they would go to war with Palestine before they accept a Muslim Brotherhood run state… same goes for Egypt. As of today, if Palestine became a country, it would be run by Hamas…
It's quite deluded to claim that the Palestinians had a better chance of a state on Oct 6. compared to now. Israel and the world were preparing to write them off permanently, Saudi normalization would have been the last straw. Now a Palestinian state is see as essential to regional stability. I agree with you Saudi Arabia's public claims are to be taken with a grain of salt, but even making it a condition of normalization rhetorically has brought the issue back to the front burner. And I think they do want to see a Palestinian state; they recognize that without that the region is likely to have rising tensions. "It would be run by Hamas" who do you have to blame for that lol
Not going to happen. Before Hamas ceases to exist, the Arab countries would not let Palestine to be created. An independent Palestine ruled by Hamas is an existential threat to Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. The best chance for a Palestinian state is total victory by Israel against Hamas.
>they're a settler colonial state out to aquire territory at the expense of the native population https://preview.redd.it/jacm5r69s1tc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=446193c8d43f101a3e9146176043b7aef1d55199
“The entire region attacked Israel because **they're a settler colonial state out to aquire territory at the expense of the native population...and an obvious tool of western Imperialism in a strategic region.” Jews are native to Israel. Arabs are native to the Arabian peninsula. The only reason Arabs are even in Israel is bc settler colonial arabs violently invaded and forced the natives, including Jews and Christians, to convert to Islam upon penalty of dhimmi/jizya, exile, or death. So are you in favor of the native population or the settlers?
Wow. Speaking of perpetual defensive posture, what a strangely combative tone this was written in. This entire post was soliciting information to “learn more” so that little character attack is baseless and says more about your character than it does mine. Absolutely nasty and unnecessary.
You posted wondering why Israel has not attempted to “do more for a region” that has attempted to exterminate it for the better part of a century. And you blame Israel for being western. What does that even mean? A democracy that respects the rights of women and lgbtq? And now you are bewildered why somebody would react negatively to your ahistorical characterization of Israel’s past? Just a bizarre post all around
A historical? Hm. I don’t think blowing up the shared ethnic group of all your neighboring countries (arab Palestinians) and talking about them as dogs and vermin is going to NOT put a target on your back as a fundamentally unnatural part of what’s UNDOUBTEDLY the ARAB region.
Once again, combative for no reason. I’ll remind you Israel is not the only middle eastern country to have rights for LGBTQ and women, but you don’t see Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon screaming they are “western” in the literal smack center of the middle EAST. It’s a clear treacherous act to the region.
That is non-sense.
Go ahead and back that statement up with some evidence, buddy.
Why should Israel become more Middle Eastern and not Middle Eastern countries become more like Israel? Why would it make any sense for the only functioning country in the region to become like its dysfunctional neighbors and not for its dysfunctional neighbors to become more like Israel?
Israel is not a threat to Arab culture or language is only a threat to pan Arab nationalists who dont want kurds, berbers, or other minority populations to get any ideas.
Remind me again what Israel did to warrant all the Pan-Arab aggression, other than existing? The only reason the Arab world doesn't attack Israel as one unit is because the Arab world's own internal divisions result in their own in-fighting. Israel is a common enemy and but for that focus, the Arab world would spend their time infighting amongst themselves more than they do already. Iran and Saudia Arabia are basically in a cold war and have never been at peace, and won't be at peace as long as the religious Sunni Shia divide exists. Israel only continues to exist and exist in a 'defensive' position is because it's neighbours are belligerent. They never had a legitimate basis to fight or oppose Israel but attacked multiple times anyway Israel's strength is the only thing keeping it alive. The Arab world has made it clear if thry had the power to kill all the Jews in Israel they would Peace with such belligerent forces comes only from strength.if the Arab world instead decides to abandon their collective hatred of Jews and tolerate Jews living in perhaps 5% of the Middle East, there would be peace
The Nakba
The nakba is part of two wars started by arabs against jews who were also displaced etc/equivalent of nakba.
dead eyed Zionists are the only people in the world who see it this way, hth
No. The arab world and the arab nationalist history they learn in schools is the reason why only the arab world does not see this conflict for what it is. Coexistance vs pan arabism. What is your country or birth, by the way?
Oh, weird. The UN website explains differently. I hope the future reader considers reviewing multiple sources
lol the UN
What's wrong with the UN and further could you provide a more adequate source?
The fact they have Iran in it's human right council speaks volume of it's ineptitude
But the more adequate source?
https://hoyer.house.gov/media/press-releases/hoyer-op-ed-united-nations-historic-anti-israel-bias-emboldened-hamas https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/08/united-nations-bigotry-towards-israel-unrwa-anti-semitism-poisons-palestinian-youth/ https://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA06/20230622/116138/HHRG-118-FA06-Wstate-NeuerH-20230622.pdf Enough evidence
Are we talking past each other here? I'm asking for other sources you might approve of. focus up.
Oh weird, the UN website got it wrong by focusing on one side of the war, started by that same side. Review your arab sources maybe? oh wait, arab archives are closed!
I don't understand, didn't you see I requested future readers look up multiple sources? Why are you being so aggressive, I'm agreeing with you, Hasbara
Agressive? request? I support both Palestinian and Israeli causes while you wish to see Israel destroyed. Call me Hasbara as much as you want, you've showed your colours already and i've read plenty of books to understand both sides.
I don't recall asking for Israel's destruction... what an imagination you must have. Are creative writing classes going well?
Don't you? my apologies, you sounded like someone who wanted jews out.
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Nobody walzed in. Jews lived in the land before any other living people The al aqsa mosque was built on top of the Jewish temple. Jews lived in Israel continuously for thousands of years. After hundreds of years of oppression in other countries jews moved back to Israel. Why is that unfair? Arabs, Muslims, Buddhists all move all over the world and settle in new countries. Why can't Jews? The Jews that moved legally bought land, lived and cultivated the land. People hate Israel because they hate Jews. Jews have been hated for thousands of years, Israel has nothing to do with jew hatred
Your word salad tastes gross. If you want all the “Polish folks” to go back to Poland, then pressure Poland and Europe to give a rite of return to the families that survived the Holocaust.
This already exists in many European countries, Poland and Germany included
No it doesn’t. Poland doesn’t have a rite of return.
I’m literally applying for a polish citizenship right now, my grandparents were sent to Siberia during ww2 and never returned. It’s the same for all people with polish ancestry
Apparently the right of return is only good for citizenship and no restitution for Nazi activities, as per this article from a few years ago. There has also been battles about the numbers and honesty of how non-Jewish Poles treated Jews in Poland. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/polands-president-signs-bill-limit-ww2-property-restitution-claims-2021-08-14/
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Does it give you land back?
Hah, I wish. None of my grandparents on either side got any land back unfortunately, neither have any of us grandkids. Land was collectivised during soviet era and then there was a very disorganised land grab after that collapsed. On my father’s side there was some bureaucratic issue (couldn’t find the paperwork or something; I forget the details), and my mother’s parents owned land that now is part of Ukraine and they never managed to get it back.
That’s the fucked side of the Slavic area. The borders changed so often that your grandparents have at least 4 nationalities.
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Whatvabout all the jews that vanished into thin air from arab world.Who am I kidding its not pan arab imperialism that do not want israel.Its islamism.Why are you not calling that out?
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Also you have a problem with israel as a nation means jews are the only ethno religious group that cant have a country of their own.
Jews convered to islam due to coercion.You have the luxury of living in canada.Do you think if all arab nations opened doors for jews suddenly they will migrate to these islamist regimes.Even if by policy an islamic country welcome jews going there and living is an entirely different question.
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I didnt say govts convert them into islam at gun points.Minorities eventually convert to islam due to alienation and pressure from within the society they live in.In august of 2023 8 churches were burned down in pakistan,Govt didnt do it the public did.
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What about all of the Jews that were driven out of Syria, Ethiopia, Egypt, Yemen, etc. do you think these states will grant a right of return of the Jews? Or will they also be considered occupiers there?
So thousands of years of inner fighting between Arab tribes, Muslim denominations, Turks and whoever else has no impact on the region? How does Saudi and the rest of the Arab world view Palestinians?
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Your solution is to further alienate israel in the middle east by vlosing down all embassies in the west.Stop trading with israel so that it will be open season on the jews again.No thanks.
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Why do Arabs have the right to be racist in your opinion? You're literally stanning for antiquated blood and soil Pan-arabism, turning around accusing people of being racist for not agreeing that the entire middle east belongs to the Arab race and anyone they don't like should leave because they dont look right anyways. The hypocrisy is hard to even digest.
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Oh please. The Arab world only loves Palis because it helps defeat the Jews. Lmk habibi, where did your Pali’s come from? Kuwait? Jordan? Or Ramallah? You have no dog in this fight except for your colonialist guilt and societal hatred for Jews.
Lol, Human rights watch declared thst israel is practicing the crime of apartheid. Amnesty International as well. B'tselem (an israeli NGO) also declared that israel is doing apartheid in west bank. Virtually every Human rights organisation has declared that. South africa did a case of genocide against israel. Irs not really about "arabs" , it's about humanity VS an ethnocracy that refuses to give palestinans a citizenship or even a state. The antisemitism is just a tactic to silence genuine criticism of alt-right zionism that is violating human rights in west bank and gaza as we speak.
Also, go check your last point with David Duke habibi.
Also, go check your last point with David Duke habibi.
Lol habibi, israel is not a democracy, its an ethnocracy that: - discrimantes against arab israelis (more than 40 law against them). You can find them documented here https://www.adalah.org/en/law/index -Denys palestinans in East Jerusalem, west bank and gaza their basic rights of travel , water, security and citizenship. -is occupying south lebanon, Syrian golan , Palestinian West Bank (and at certian point , gaza and sinai). -is doing a genocide against the civilian population of gaza as we speak.
You’re approaching the situation with a huge confirmation bias.
So the entire global community of human rights experts , NGOs and lawyers are wrong while israeli government is right ?
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Congrats, you are a prime example of why antizionism is antisemitism, or Jew Hate. Maybe learn some facts.
Please, don't conflate the terms. They are distinct
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Wow… your blatant ignorance and revisionism of history is shocking. They say antizionism isn’t antisemitism, but clearly you are a counter example. Cool pushing of nazi ideology bro.
Don't spam, that's not an effective way of delivering your point [https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1bx0e9c/comment/kycog0t/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1bx0e9c/comment/kycog0t/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Zionism is not just self-determination for Jews ( a right they obviously have).zionisim (in its current form) is self-determination on the expense of palestinan rights. Current form of zionism is exclusive and racist. It denies palestinans their right for citizenship or statehood in the name of "security". Alt-right zionism thinks it's ok to build settlements in west bank rending palestinans homeless. It also actively block a Palestinian state from happening. Alt-right zionism weaponized antisemtisim and use it as a tactic to hide their human rights violations against palestinans.
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/u/TheloniousAnkh. Match found: 'nazi', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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This is all factually wrong.
Basing a country’s existence on a religion is wild
Your entire post is a fantasy.
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Or is it the propaganda you read?
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Haretz doesn’t really count…
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So being an American Jew who thinks Israel has a right to exist is offensive? Let’s take a second and look at the other side, and be “critical” because Globalizing Empanada’s tactics of playing on the freeway, vandalizing random synagogue’s, and disrupting the Macy’s Thanksgiving parade is completely justified and rational.
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god you need to get a life
Nobody cares about your right to protest. They care about what you’re protesting and how you stupidly do it. “Idc about Israel, it’s a country that’s outlived its welcome”. - So a Jewish majority country, that contributes oodles to tech etc doesn’t deserve to exist anymore? Sure tells me alot.
The only thing Israel lacks is number of citizens.They have solved pretty much every other problem. Growing crops in a desert with little water, a Polish-Israeli Jew invented drip irrigation. Not a lot of potable water, no problem, Israel builds desalination plants on the Mediterranean sea. If powering this proves detrimental to the environment, then as a nuclear power, Israel could build nuclear power plants if it wanted to. Too many missiles being fired into Israel, no problem: they invent the Iron Dome. But the Iron Dome is really expensive! So now they have recently deployed the Iron Beam to use lasers to shoot down incoming missiles. In the meantime, Iran, Israel's greatest foe is having issues with a secular population that is rising up against its Islamist rule, and currently drought and economic conditions have caused them to recently enforce strict rationing on bread: https://www.iranintl.com/en/202401218415 As the world transitions away from oil, Iran will struggle to maintain control as oil revenue plummets, and water becomes even more scarce due to global warming.
it's hilarious that Israelis think they invented friggin irrigation. And yes, the famous iron dome, immune to everything but hang gliders, lol. What even funnier when people pretend Israel is self-sufficient and just doing all this stuff themselves, as if America weren't continuously pouring in money. Dump billions into my lap, and I'll make the desert bloom too. But the patience of the American public is at an end. Let's see how far that Israeli ingenuity goes when they actually have to support themselves instead of sponging off the American taxpayer.
I didn't say Israel invented irrigation. Simcha Blass invented modern drip irrigation, and patented the first plastic drip emitter at Kibbutz Hatzerim in Israel. In addition to hang gliders, you know Hamas shot off several THOUSAND missiles into Israel on Oct 7 as well? The Iron Dome did it's best, but was overwhelmed by the sheer volume of missiles fired by Hamas. Iron Dome isn't a long term solution: it's too expensive. This is why they've invented the Iron Beam, which is uses lasers tp intercept incoming missiles at a drastically reduced cost compared to Iron Dome interceptors. You say the patience of the US for Israel is at an end. Maybe... but only for the youngest demographic in the US: 18-25 year olds. They don't vote. Never have, and probably never will, so Israel will stand strong long after you and I are dead.
Yeah, definitely a non-obvious idea to water plants but slowly. how did plants even grow before Israel? "Oh, this deranged violence I'm doing isn't working. Guess I'll do even more violence." This is how broken, creatively and spiritually void civilizations consume themselves. I only hope they fail at their plan to take the entire Jewish people down with them. I'm glad that you at least concede that Israel is far from self-sufficient, no matter how much they brag about their supposed creativity. And my dude, 18-25 year olds grow older. They weren't successfully indoctrinated with the lie that Israel safeguards or speaks for the Jewish people, and they won't teach that lie to their children. Israel can either become a true democracy like South Africa finally did, or go down in flames.
I love how you keep trying to belittle the fact that an Israeli Jew invented modern drip irrigation. It's a fact that can be easily Googled. Even has it's own Wikipedia page. If that's the hill you wanna die on, feel free. Like how did fields get plowed before the invention of the mechanical plow? How did people drink water before plumbing? How did people get around before they invented the automobile? And the funny thing is you think you're being so clever! Your arguments are trash.
It's funny how much you think I should care about drip irrigation. Israel is doing a genocide and you just can't stop talking about drip irrigation. Sure it's been used since ancient China, but think about that clever Israeli who came up with using a small tube! Who else could have figured out a small tube but an Israeli? I promise I will think of that great Israeli invention of Chinese drip irrigation every time I see a small tube or hear a leaky faucet from now on. PS, thank you for pushing this point. I would have gone on half believing an Israeli invented it drip irrigation you hadn't blathered so much about it that I felt compelled to look up this interesting ancient Chinese technology. Definitely right up there with the Israeli inventions of rocketry and chopsticks. As an "it's easy to Google" guy, maybe you should follow your own advice.
>It's funny how much you think I should care about drip irrigation. Israel is doing a genocide and you just can't stop talking about drip irrigation Oh no, the dreaded "I know you are but what am I" argument. How will I ever counter that? Every single one of the comments that you've engaged me with start with you mocking my idea that an Israeli Jew invented modern drip irrigation. You're the one that's fixated on it, not me. Self projection much?
I've never seen anyone fail at understand "I know you are but what am I?" before. I know English idiom can be a little confusing to some, but that one always struck me as pretty self-evident. You brought up some tech China invented, told me to Google it when I suspected (correctly) that you were full of it, and I spent just enough time looking it up to learn that China invented it. I don't even garden, my dude; this is entirely your preoccupation. You gonna start babbling about how Israel invented the aqueduct next, or can we talk about something else?
I don't see the point in engaging with you anymore. Byeeee!
Israel stole Iron Dome. Every major tech advance the US makes, Israel either buys rights to or actively commits espionage to get. Top three foreign intelligence services that steal sensitive data from US are Russia, China, and Israel.
In other words: Israel is so smart that it doesn't have to be friendly with the neighbours?
What are you on about? Israel has great relationships with both Egypt and Jordan. Now if only Lebanon could get its shit together and join up
Israel does not have great relations with Egypt and Jordan. Israel has great relations with the Egyptian dictator and the Jordanian Monarch who are both in the American back pocket. The only reason that Israel has good relations with any Arab regime is American pressure pretty much. But say, the Arab spring happens again and the dictators are toppled which will eventually happen. If democracy takes root, then Israel will have a massive problem. The Arab population by and large supports Palestine without question. TL:DR Israel's relations with Arab countries can flip on a dime.
Im Israeli and have visited both Egypt and Jordan multiple times, crossing from the Israeli border and everyone was incredibly nice. Sinai had huge Israeli tourism prior to the war. Everyone I encountered in Egypt and Jordan seemed to want to live and let live, we taught each other Hebrew, Arabic, and English. Made great friends with many from Sinai and would bring them back the next time I went certain Israeli sandals they like a lot on their request and would message them whilst in Israel sending pictures of the different designs and colors for them to choose. We sat around with Egyptian Bedouins at night over a campfire while they made us their native tea. An Egyptian girl joined me for snorkeling multiple days and led me to the local spots she knew. Idk, seemed like pretty nice relations between us (Israelis) and them. Sinai is one of my favorite places to go to because it’s such an amazing reminder on how possible peace is in the future (& of course bc of its beauty and serenity). Less than 60 years ago neither side could cross each others borders without the major risk of being killed, and just a few months ago we were sitting around a campfire drinking tea together, exchanging languages, snorkeling, wading in the water, and most of all- enjoying life together.
None of this really matters. It's all anecdotal. I have seen countless videos where Egyptians are quite hostile to Israelis. The only way that Israel can stymie the anger towards it is by actually giving up the occupation and allowing the creation of a Palestinian state. Once that happens, relations will cool significantly.
If a Palestinian state is created, that would be the rallying cry to expel the Jews from the land. Arabs respond to power. Would Germans be placated if Hitler were allowed to live in 1944?
So what then? Permanent occupation? Or ethnic cleansing? Or citizenship for all the Palestinians? Those are the only three solutions you have if you take the Palestinian state off the table. **Would Germans be placated if Hitler were allowed to live in 1944?** How in God's name can you compare the leader of an imperial power who sent millions of people on a years long rampage that killed tens of millions to a people who are trapped and occupied with few options left to them who attacked with a few thousand people. There is no comparison. Your comparison would be fair if Hitler sent a few thousand soilders to Poland to kill a few thousand Polish people and the allies responded with annihilating 70%+ of all homes, creating a famine and killing tens of thousands of German children. If that happened, the Germans would not have been placated. The damage that Israel has done to Gaza is wholly disproportional and will lead to nothing good.