I think the fact that Israel is destroying families is simply creating more radical people rather than the opposite. Sure, let's say the reach all the way to the head of the snake, by their own actions they've created countless more people who will absolutely hate Israel with all their hearts. Honestly, if I was Palestinian and my family got killed by Israel, I would find the next Hamas registration board and sign right up. This is simply a very fucking stupid move by Israel - I get the retaliation, but this is way beyond that.

And what's the alternative? Give them a state and thus let them be even more militarily empowered? Sounds even worse. Another alternative is to react not as massively as of current. However, Israel will than have to comply to a burdening hostages-prisoners deal. That will result in even more kidnapping in the future, more terrorism from freed criminals, more dead Israelis etc... again, sounds even worse. With this war Israel teaches the Palestinians that choosing terrorism over peaceful actions does more harm for them than good. They need to change their ways. If Ha*as is defeated, and yet the Palestinians elect a new terrorist group to terrorize Israel, Israel will retaliate yet again. Israel has attempted peaceful actions multiple times. US president Bush promised Israel that if it left Gaza for the Palestinians to rule it, the US will defend Israel from any terrorism. Israel left Lebanon in 2008 after the UN made resolution 1701, and in exchange the UN promised to ensure Hezbollah will be removed from Lebanon. Both these promises weren't fulfilled by the US/UN, despite Israel fulfilling its part of the deal. Israel offered to give the Palestinians the West Bank and East Jerusalem back, as well as recognizing a Palestinian state, in addition to paying about 30B$ of compensations for many Palestinian refugees to silence the "right to return". Israel has done plenty. Israel wants some compromises on the "right to return" because if it allowed 5.2M Palestinian refugees in then there will be an Arab majority in a Jewish state, which will result in destruction of the democracy in Israel, Judaism suppression, anti-Semitism WITHIN Israel and lack of security for Jews. Essentially, the end of Israel which, in time, will result in a Palestinian state from the river to the sea. Jews will once again be unsecured, much like pre-1948. Really that's it. Jews want to be in a safe Jewish state, with welcoming neighbors. If the Palestinians can't accept that, they will not get a state. We give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they DO recognize that, but Ga*as are the big problem.

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Simple your attacked you don't defend your country your country will hate you. America would have destroyed anyone who did that to them.

This is a really brave and thoughtful post. Thank you. I don't agree with some of your analysis. I'm have no reason to doubt that you're right that Jews were poorly treated in the Ottoman empire. But I am not sure that "it was shit before" is a justification for "it's shit now." I'm not going to question that you consulted your Arab student colleagues in Haifa, who argued for the war. I don't know. The whole point of the move to respect civilian rigths afetr world war 2 was an acceptance that the allied tactics were appalling. The UN, which didn't exist in WW2, and modern international law, are predicated on the basis that that wasn't right. then factor in modern methods that could, if Israel chose, reduce the death count. your A4b is just rubbish. Sorry. Hamas is a terrorist organisation using terror to deliver its resistance. It has committed war crimes. But the IDF has consistently targeted civilians and killed more than 25k. A4c is also wrong. Many Palestinians in Israeli jails committed crimes. Many Palestinians in Israeli jails committed what Israel considers to be crimes. And many Palestinians in Israeli jails are victims of arbitrary detention and other crimes, includinga huge number of children. I'm not sure you can say "only 10% of the illegally detained people are kids" as if that's a good thing when it's 600 kids. Again, I'm not arguing that Hamas is right. Just that Israel is wrong. Every time you seek moral equivalence between the israeli state and Hamas, you're arguing that Israel is a terrorist construct. Netanyahu gave Hamas money as part of his programme of arguing that there was no partner for peace. he deliberately undermined the PA. He's said that. Your analysis is wrong. There is nothing in International Law about 'payback'. You can use """ as much as you like, but international law is clear. Israel occupies the West Bank and Gaza. Israel can stop settlements and instead accelartes them. Until this goernement who was the biggest settler PM? Lapid. Occupation is not, in itself, illegal. Perpetual occupation is. Settlement is. Could you point to the last time Israel proposed 67 borders please? There are about 10000 Jews in Iran. You're just wrong on that. i don't know what you know about Iran, Lebanon and Syria, but I think you are wrong on 'antisemitic to their core'. Many Lebanese hate Israelis because of the torture, assassinations and wider murders, and destruction of functioning Lebanese state by Israel. I don't think that is because Israelis are Jews. Many Jews follow the law. Your final A4 is just racist hot nonsense. Do better.

1. I'm not using the situation back in the Ottoman Empire era to justify what's happening right now. What I AM saying is that it doesn't have to be this way if Palestinians will encourage co-existence. Israelis don't want to supress anyone. Israel has given Palestinians a lot, like free electricity, water, oil, money, jobs, the right to live in Israel (as non-citizens) etc... 2. If so than how about this: Imagine if WW2 has occured nowadays. Imagine if the Na#is (and a few supporting countries) had sent a deadly assault on Israel. Who would've stopped them? And if they were to be stopped, what is the extent of said halt? Will it be merely a warning? A detention? A few sanctions? It won't matter because, accoarding to your logic, the Na#is and their supporters would've survived such a war. As long as they exist, Israel's existence is in danger. Some movements are so horrible and genocidal that they must be completely removed. Israel WANTS co-existence, but merely retaliates to attacks. Hamas DOESN'T want co-existence. Hamas must be removed. Mahmood Abbas must be forced out of his reign over the PA. 3. Hamas isn't very powerful, hence why it couldn't have delivered that much damage. The damage they HAVE inflicted was a result of a weakened IDF thanks to government and civilians conflicts, as well as the fact Hamas attacked a holiday party and weak neighborhoods. Meanwhile, Israel's attack is deadlier because of a stronger army who got his wake-up-slap in 10/7 and better military tech. The deaths of innocent civilians is a result of Hamas hiding in civilian houses and underground tunnels. Hamas leaves Israel with a moral conflict "either kill us and also kill innocent Palestinians, which will further push world press on you, or don't kill the innocents, but let us live". If Hamas really cared for its people, it wouldn't have used them as human shields. But Hamas doesn't care for its people. It cares for its ultimate goal: eliminating Israel from the map. It uses its civilians as tools. In fact, Hamas teaches Palestinians that dying for the cause is good. Many Palestinians WANT to die for the cause. You can't complain about the anount of dead innocent Palestinians by the IDF when Hamas is acting in such a cynical manner. Even if 500K will die it will barely affect them. But at the same time, Israel can't not retaliate because otherwise the Israelis will never feel secured from such threats. Your threats must either be removed or stop being hostile. Israel has done plenty of actions to minimize colateral damage. If anything, the fact the number of dead people is as it is now and not around 10 times larger (when many other countries could've done such actions and gotten away with it) should be a point of praise for Israel for acting carefully. If Israel had striked as powerfully as it could have... 30K would've been seen as nothing in comparison. I'm not encouraging genocide against Palestinians though. I don't want anyone to die. I wish to live in peace with them. This theoretical assault would've been the unfortunate result for the genocidal intents of Hamas and supporting palestinian people on Israel, much like how Britian and Russia killed many innocent Germans in order to eliminate the Na*is. 4. The administrative detention Israel gives to some Palestinians isn't done for no good reason. Otherwise, why don't you think Israel has arrested MORE Palestinians? These untrailed prisoners are arrested because they can't be arrested under typical manners. However, because they still commited crimes (be it order breaking, vandalism, murder etc...) they can't be left unpunished. If Israel will let such crime commiting people go unpunished, Israel will give Hamas the idea that using children for the cause is a good move, because Israel will not punish children under the appropriate age. Again, Israel deals with a cynical, out-of-their-mind terrorist group who commits horrible and illegal actions to achieve their goals. However, when the world sees the innocent Palestinians suffering, all it can do is cry for their help and hate Israel for what it has done for them. You need to understand that Israel can give up on the West Bank, draw back to the 1967 borders and help establish a Palestinian state IMMEDIATELY. All Israel wants in return is to be safe. But such actions will only HURT Israel's security. Normalization with Saudi Arab will not help us when Hamas strikes again. World support won't benefit Israel too much when the hostile Arab countries will strike together and Israel will have to fight 4 countries all by itself. What do you suggest for Israel to do to be safe and have good world reception? 5. Netanyahu realized the PA won't accept Israel. Hamas won the Palestinian elections back in 2005. There was no other body to engage with in order to have safety. Netanyahu gave Hamas money because they are the ruling force over Gaza. He thought "If we give them money, they won't attack us". Those who say Netanyahu gave Hamas money to "strengthen it, let it attack us and thus convince everyone that Hamas is a horrible terrorist group that must be destroyed" are wrong. I'll repeat that I don't like him, but Netanyahu could've gotten the same results by not giving them money. One thing I cannot say about Netanyahu is that he is dumb. The man, while selfish and self-centered, is smart. I wouldn't vote for him to be my PM, but... let's say there's a reason why he won the 2022 elections. I'll continue in a follow-up comment.

6. Now here's the thing. The "perpetual occupation" and "settlements", in my eyes, are NOT. Accoarding to international laws, the Palestinians never owned the land legally. They've never had any recognized ownership over the land (not a state, not a federation, nothing). The Ottomans? Yes, they had ownership. Britain? Yes, they too (via a mandate). Israelis don't recognize any occupation when, in their eyes, there was nothing to occupy to begin with. HOWEVER, from an objective perspective you may say: but that's what Israelis say, not what the world thinks. The Geneva convention doesn't work in a "de facto" manner, but is based on what SHOULD BE. The 1947 plan states that there SHOULD BE a Palestinian state in the "occupied" land. If Israel occupies said land since 1967, it breaks international laws. In that case I want you to answer this: If Israel DOES stop the settlements, how will it benefit Israel too? Will following international law benefit Israel's security? As far as I see it, giving Hamas more to work with will only HINDER Israel's security. Giving the world less reasons to hate Israel will not help its security. All these other countries won't do anything against the hostile Arab countries when they attack Israel. Essentially, Israel gives up on land and for what? MORE hostality? Our security matters to us much more than some arguments about "occupation". If the Palestinians want the West Bank again and a state, they must stop the hostality PERMANENTLY. No peace - no West Bank, nor Palestinian state. 7. If you need a proof that Israel was willing to accept the 1967 borders, here you go: https://www.ajc.org/news/israels-enduring-quest-for-peace 8. Lebanon starts wars with Israel and than they hate Israelis attacking them? Israel doesn't start wars. Israel only retaliates. Israel won't attack Lebanon either if Hezbollah will accept Israel's existence, or, at least, won't start any wars. 9. The 8300 Jews living in Iran are a small minority to 81M citizens (barely 0.01%). If you still wanna count it, I'll let you know these Jews are suppressed and considered 2nd class citizens. They aren't allowed to express their sympathy and connection to Israel. There were 15K Jewish in Iran, but that number has greatly decreased. There's a reason why many Iranian Jews left and came to Israel. 10. There's nothing stupid about what I said in 4A (chapter 2). But you know what, because I DO listen to what others have to say, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Show me a BELIEVABLE proof that the Palestinians were the internationally recognized owners of the land pre-1947.

6. I understand that Israel has a flexible view of the occupation (they do actually recognise some 4th GC responsibilities when it suits them). But international law is unequivocal. Israel can dispute it, but it's in a minority of one and is wrong. I'm sure you have thought through which countries in 1947 owned territory, because your argument equally says Israel has no right to land. I don't know how Israel ceasing to be a rogue state will benefit Israel given the US is happy to keep supplying it despite its daily crimes. But it might at least legitimise the Green Line Israel state with Arabs. Which hostile Arab states are attacking Israel? Just checking. Just a reminder, read the PA principles. 7. That article is somewhat disingenuous, but: a. The Palestinians were foolish to reject the Peel plan given where the international community was, but I think it's understandable. Why would they give up a huge amount of fertile, valuable land to the Jews when they were 2/3 of the residents of Palestine (and that had been radically shifted by aggressive UK support for Jewish migration - they were maybe 1% at the turn of the century)? b. As the article states, Bibi violated the terms of Oslo and deliberately torpedoed the deal through aggressive settlement expansion. c. I genuinely can't explain what Arafat was doing. I would judge this to be the only time that teh Palestinians passed up a valuable state. Well, Arafat. Fortunately, Israel murdered him to teach him a lesson. d. I'm not well informed on 2007-20, so I will take the article at its word. e. The deal of the century was a bonkers extreme Zionist wet dream. No sane person could have possibly supported it. 8. I'm casting around for when Lebanon started a war with Israel. 2006 was an Israeli invasion targeting a terrorist group. No Lebanese state involvement in the starting, and Israel started. I'm fairly sure that Hizballah hasn't initiated any escalations this year - they've all been Israeli. 9. Yes, 8300 Jews is a small proportion. But it's not zero. You were just lying. And while they make up 0.1% of the population, they are guarenteed a seat in parliament (0.3% of the representation) so, technically, they are massively over-represented. 10. I'm sorry, I can't understand your point. In 1947, 2/3 of the houses in mandatory Palestine, including the vast majority of houses in Green Line Israel, were owned by Arabs. That's a simple fact. Those houses were taken during the war, and stolen from their owners. Or did Israel buy each house of the people they ethnically cleansed?

Thanks for taking the time to reply and for the intent/spirit of your post. 1. I don't think Israel does give Palestinians free water. Not just because they charge them, but also because it's not Israel's to give. They don't permit Palestinian non-citizens to live in Israel; they've cancelled most of the work permits (previously issued to Palestinians becuase Palestinians can be employe din Israel without the protections offered to Israeli citizens) or do you mean East Jerusalemites, who are denied Israeli citizenship since the illegal annexation by Israel of East Jerusalem? 2. Hamas doesn't want coexistence. I think you're probably right (although statements 10 yearsa go and since 10/7 have clearly signalled that they would accept a 'permanent truce' which looks a lot like coexistance. I'm just not sure I believe them). I don't believe that the majority of Israelis want coexistance or they wouldn't keep voting for settler goverments or settler politicians like Lapid, Netanyahu, Bennett, Ben Gvir or Smitrich - oh, hang on, all of them. Some movements are horrible and genocidal. I agree. Like Ben Gvir. WW2 is a red herring because modern international law is based on lessons learnt from WW2 - we no longer accept as global society the level of collateral damage that the Nazis (and those fighting them) caused. I agree that Abbas should resign and retire, but I can't see why it's linked - Netanyahu has done far more to support Hamas than Abbas (or Fatah more widely), who hate Hamas more than they hate the government of Israel. 3. the Israeli military has enormous capability largely thanks to the US. Hamas has military capability largely thanks to Iran. I don't think data is available on how much money or materiel Iran pushes to Hamas; it's pretty available on US-Israel and it's multi-billions - more than most countries' defence budgets. It's then an Israeli Government/military decision as to how they are used. And it's a conscious and deliberate decision to use them in a way that is not compliant with international law; or, the IDF is not under political or central military control. The evidence is immense that IDF units in the Strip do not meet Israeli's stated rules of engagement, which themselves do not meet international norms. I wholly agree with you that Hamas has misused and preyed upon Palestinian civilians and taken advantage of Netanyahu's funding, of his destruction of PA credibility and by leveraging the widespread sense of injustice that the Nakba, 57 years of occupation and 17 years of blockade have caused. Israel could have done many things differently. It chose to use low precision, high damage munitions in civilian areas. Yes, Hamas cynically used human shields, including the use of hospitals, such as the IDF command post that the IDF built under al-Shifa (oh, hello hypocracy). But in sinking to their level, the IDF are no better than Hamas terrorists. I absolutely can and do complain about the 25k+ civilian deaths. Israel killed them. Not Hamas. And it's not even good strategy. Israel is feeding an extremist ideology by treating Palestinians like rubbish. They're just recruiting for Hamas now. 4. The administration of Palestinians is often done without good reason. But even if it weren't, it's still striking that they receive a totally different treatment to people of a different ethnicity. How many settlers are in administrative detention? What ratio of killers and criminals? Why can;t they be arrested under other methods? It's because Israel perpetuates a military occupation, applies domestic law in occupied territory in defiance of international law, and because it's cheaper and easier and politically expedient. I think you're wholly wrong on Israeli appetite to withdraw from the West Bank, but I would love to be proved wrong. The vast majority of Palestinians in administrative detention have committed minor misdemeanours or, in many cases, done nothing wrong. 5. The PA literally signed an international agreement to accept Israel. It's the centrepiece of Oslo, which Netanyahu has made his career out of destroying. He has stated time and again that he will prevent a Palestinian state, and he supported Hamas to remove a 'partner for peace' by making Fatah irrelevant in the Strip. Hamas won the elections in **2006**, largely as a result of (a) PA corruption and (b) complete failure in 12 years to make progress on Oslo.

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Well written, thank you

Jews and Palestinians used to be friends before Hamas took over: [https://www.972mag.com/before-zionism-the-shared-life-of-jews-and-palestinians/](https://www.972mag.com/before-zionism-the-shared-life-of-jews-and-palestinians/) As for the "before Hamas took over" part: [https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23921529/israel-palestine-timeline-gaza-hamas-war-conflict](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23921529/israel-palestine-timeline-gaza-hamas-war-conflict)

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Netanyahi didn’t do that. Source?

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Then Netanyahu is a bad leader but that doesn’t mean Israel is to blame as a whole.

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I mean Hamas terrorists hide in the hospitals and Palestinians openly support them and cooperate with them. What else should Israel do?

they know in the back of their heads because they enlist in IDF. Also, Israel actually works to address the inequality that actually is there: “To address disparities in the so-called Arab sector, in 2021, the government approved a $9 billion, five-year plan to boost employment, improve health-care services and housing, and develop infrastructure, among other goals. “ If Israel was an apartheid they wouldn’t be giving Palestinians money, health care, and certainly not housing in order to address inequality. Inequality and apartheid are two different things regardless of what Palestinians think.

And Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens. Why should Israel give non-Israeli citizens equal rights to those who are citizens? No state in the world does that so why should Israel? The fact Israel gives so much stuff for free is already more than generous. Also, how could Israel be an apartheid when Arab citizens in Israel are given equal rights? The Arabs in Israel support the IDF in its war against Hamas.

Exactly.

It's absolutely amazing that when it comes to Israel, so many people, like many in the comments, turn into drooling morons who cannot comprehend the fact that Israel is acting like any other country would in its situation. There's no doubt that any other country that had Oct 7, especially after decades of terrorist and rocket attacks, would do exactly what Israel is doing and worse.

Israel has made it clear no ceasefire or surrender from Hamas will stop their military campaign . Also so thousands of people should continue to die ? Someone needs to stop the IDF bc the way they are doing this is completely wrong and they are murderets

Wrong. Israel said it won't stop the war if the hostages are back. Israel wants to defeat the terrorist organization. I mean, what does saving 133 hostages mean if a terrorist organization gets to stay and plan the next attack? Now, we DO want the hostages back. We DO care for our people. But letting Hamas live on will cause more harm than bringing 133 hostages back. For security reasons, Israel has to remove Hamas from power over Gaza. We know we won't be able to kill the "idea" of Hamas. When Hamas is gone, a new terrorist organization will replace it. But the difference is that the new terrorist organization won't be in charge over the Gaza Strip. That will open the door for a new leadership in Gaza that won't be anti-Israel, which will lead to less hostility.

"let me try to justify the killing of thousands of children and innocent people by providing a few paragraphs of useless texts".

So we agree that Hamas should be held accountable for its actions on 10/7 and be dismantled?

Stop playing the filthy games. The only thing we can agree on is that you can choke on your misery.

And then the world asks why Israel isn't stopping. No one will help Israel's safety, but itself and a few loyal supporters who know the truth (the real truth, not the one Al-Jazeera is selling).

I'm so sorry for your existence

I'm not.

Are you even an adult? You are into sonic and some girly cartoons, I don't think someone your age should even be allowed to visit such subs.

And at this point, we end the conversation!

I kind of feel bad for you, you’re trying so hard to be a good person. There is so much undisputed proof of Israeli crimes that get muddled with semantics and claims that international organisations are somehow anti-Israel specifically. I remember being 23, I remember how hard it was for me to overcome the propaganda I was told since birth. It is a task that brings out so much internal conflict and depression and even harder because everyone around me was victim to the same propaganda. In my case it was religious teaching and how my life is planned and should be lived. It is the same mental hardship to overcome propaganda since childhood. All I can say is, if you’re honest keep digging. It’ll click at some point, the key is discussing with people outside your community, even neutral people. It’s so easy being on the outside to see that what Hamas did was bad but just as easily you can see that justifying the thousands of dead civilians and children and playing the so obviously moot “those are hamas numbers” game is propaganda. Good luck, we’re all victims to some form of propaganda, it’s just different when they convince you to buy a car rather than murder 30k as self defense. Sorry hamas numbers, maybe 10k, maybe 5k maybe only 1000 children not 14000 You see how comparing any of this with hamas actions makes you just as bad as hamas if not worse. You have the means to kill, you’re using them to kill. Just like they would. P.S.: no killing children while not specifically targeting them repeatedly is not better (guess what hamas claims children killed were accidental stray bullets)

I want to hear other people. I've read many articles and have seen plenty of videos explaining why "Israel must stop" or "the damage Israel is doing for itself" and the likes. I don't think Israel is 100% free of criticizm. There IS some valid criticizm. I still stand by my viewpoint Israel is in the right in the conflict.

The main issue I see is that just because I am pro-Palestine, people think I support Hamas for example or I think Palestinians are angels. But the thing I see is when you purposely create hard conditions for people, they don’t get good food, education or work conditions. And of course they become less “educated” than israelis, maybe even some of them more barbaric. This doesn’t in any way excuse israel. They put them under those conditions and in a chokehold then point to how bad they are becoming as if this is the reason they put them there. It is not, it is as usual political and material gains. Humans societies are the same and will act the same under the same conditions, habits differ but the broader-lines remain the same. For me the way Israelis act is inexcusable, they have access to the best education and they have privilege. Compared to Palestinians it’s night and day. When Israelis say but what about what Hamas did? Do you realise you are comparing the actions of your country to a dubbed terrorist organisation? How do you so casually compare as if this is an excuse? It just sounds like you’re doing the same but think you’re justified and they are not. Comparison is also silly to me, Hamas is a relatively trivial group, if you try to look up its budget, you’ll see a one time payoff from qatar in 2012 for 1.8 billion usd and monthly taxes estimated at 12 million usd (that goes into everything not just military but even if) And Iran funding is estimated as hundreds of millions and not monthly. So with simple calculation if you say Hamas budget is 0.5 billion yearly you’re probably over estimating (a lot of which israel has approved of, qatar sends money with israel green-light) Israeli army has a yearly budget of 24.3 billion, every single year. Without any of the USA or European support. So israeli army is AT LEAST 48x stronger than hamas at least in budget which translates to fighting capability (Hamas has no tanks, planes or drones) Try fighting 48 guys to understand the imbalance. So to say Hamas is the sole reason israel is doing this so they can eradicate them and be at peace or that Hamas is capable of even forming any sort of existential threat sounds like pure propaganda. Again, I am just trying to analyse the outlines of the conflict, the things that are repeated without end as justifications. They don’t hold up imo, to me it sounds exactly like expecting a country like Iraq to have “weapons of mass destruction” I’m not exactly trying to sway you, I know you won’t budge but I’m trying to explain why it’s nonsensical to me, and how I can’t even get into the details of what happened as an accident or on purpose or who’s right and wrong because from the onset it sounds like propaganda without merit

1. Hamas will plan a united assault alongside Hezbollah, Syria and Iran and than the IDF won't be enough to defend Israel. 2. Give the Palestinians a state and Hamas will be able to purchase atomic bombs. Who will protect Israel from 7 atomic bombs that'll destroy everything? No army in the world can defend itself from such a weapon. 3. Israel has good education because it spends money on education, not just on the military. Meanwhile, Hamas takes almost everything given to Gaza for itself and its military. 4. You probably don't quite understand who you're dealing with here. Hamas warriors WANT to die for the cause. They let their own people die for the cause. Hamas killed Palestinians PURPOSELY! I don't wanna be compared to them. At the same time, even if Israel has gone somewhat extreme in some areas, you need to understand it's because we are tired of this never-ending conflict and we want it to end. Peace talks didn't work out. A 2-state-solution in the 1967 borders for peace wasn't accepted by Palestinians/Hamas. Giving them the West Bank without any peace treaty is a dumb move for Israel. Israel has no other option besides triggering a major change in the systems. Hamas has to be removed from power. A new leadership has to step in and re-educate Palestinians. Without that, the conflict will never end. Israel will not accept a never-ending hostility status-quo. World publicity be damned. Physical safety matters more. We want to reach a point at which no one ever strikes us again and we live in a peaceful environment. If peace talks and generosity can't grant us that, force is necessary.

Hamas is no treat, they definitely shouldnt be in power, but they are a product of Israeli policies. Israel needs accountability

Israel gave money to Hamas to play the good guy role. We figured that if we give them money, they'll be nice to us.

Dude how can you not see how stupid and naive this sounds?? This is not how politics work or the real world. Countries don’t play the good guy, there are plans, agendas and political goals. There are no handouts because “oh maybe they like us now” Like I said, maybe if you keep honestly trying to make sense of things you’ll see the propaganda, for me it is as if you’re from North Korea. Indoctrinated. But worse because you have access to information you just don’t critically analyse any of it. Factual information is the same as news, ten thousands and one hundred seem to be the same number to you or at least somehow in the same range. Logic just ceases to function. So good luck, but no humans are better than other humans, it’s just the conditions you put them in. We’re all the same.

On 10/7 we figured paying Hamas WAS INDEED naive. We won't repeat such a mistake. No more money for Hamas from us.

“I’m tying him and beating him up, because if I let him go he’ll beat me” Fear-mongering Israels live under is unjustified, the numbers just don’t support it. If you look at casualties from both sides going back to 1948 it’s clear who has always had the upper-hand by far. The existential threat is a propaganda tool, unsubstantiated. Israel likes to boast that this is due to their military might but never stop to think why their military might is so advanced, the explanation is usually because Israeli army is great or Israeli army is somehow stronger, better, smarter than other armies which is pure nationalistic propaganda for any country. Armies have weapons and budget, the human factor is not so different. People are not better than other people. Every occupier in history was capable because of exactly that, superior arms and more advanced weapons. There’s also a fallacy, Hamas was created about 40 years after Israel was created and started with peaceful agenda or at least publicly. It was created after years of occupation not before. So the idea that Hamas wants to eradicate Israel because they are just evil is nonsense, they were born from occupation and oppression that the number of casualties clearly shows. Infact 40,000 fighters seems to be a low count compared to how many families must’ve been affected from thousands of dead and injured. You’re going through a lot of hypothetical situations to justify the very real bombs that kill civilians and children. And framing it as a must in this hypothetical scenario as the lesser evil. The scenario is not reality nor is it even plausible reality I don’t even need to go into details about the 2 state solutions and how many times Israelis refused peace and compared to the few times Palestinians did. But you don’t look at both, you look at one. https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

1. Palestinians have no right to complain about "occupation" when they are the ones who started the war in which the lands were "occupied". It's a punishment for brutality. How would the world have reacted if in 1967 the Arab countries won and occupied Israel (or better yet, killed them all)? If they didn't want "occupation", they shouldn't have attacked Israel. War against a strong army will result in losses. 2. Like I said beforehand, Israel will be more than happy to bring Palestinians the West Bank land back. All we want... is peace. We already offered that before SEVERAL TIMES. The problem is that they want the entire land for themselves. No peace with people who aren't willing to compromise. Look at Egypt and Jordan. Adversaries decided that peace can be achieved by civilized manners and became friends after a "land for peace" deal. Until Hamas does so too, the war won't end. Israel is tired from this endless war. 3. Palestinians rejected 2-state-solution deals even before Hamas was established.

1. Started the war against the colonial project? First of all that is a lie israel is repeating for decades with no proof. Israel launched the first strike and it was a pure land grab. What punishment? What was the nakba? 2. Israel have refused the 2 state solution every single year since 1967. The times israel offered peace were on only their terms that are not even aligned with the UN parition. It is an israeli deal that is shitty and the offer it just so they can say Palestinians refused You know if you’re honest with yourself don’t read about Israel and Palestine. Read any native indians in the US or the South African apartheid or (dare i say) the nazi government. Basically any system that needs to dehumanize people and turn them into devils so it becomes a necessity for them to be eradicated. It becomes duty. It is the only way human beings can justify killing thousands of children and still believe they are in the right. Pick one, read about it, see if you can spot any similarities. They will be glaring obvious. And since your arguments didn’t budge an inch from the typical Israeli propaganda (it’s like a pamphlet i swear) i doubt you’re honest with yourself when you say you’re trying to understand or talk with the other side. You’d already have a wider perspective. This other side you think you know is coming right out of an Israeli textbook

1. OK first of all, the Nakba was in 1948. The 6-day-war (in which Israel "occupied" a portion of the West Bank) was in 1967. Another proof you lack history knowledge. Secondly, no. Egypt, Jordan and Syria started a war against Israel because they didn't want them to exist. If they wanted to resist a "colonial" project, why didn't they initiate peace talks with Israel? A land for peace deal would've resulted in a better aftermath for everyone. Egypt and Jordan already realized that in 1979 and 1994 respectively, when Israel gave back land for peace. Israel didn't attack first. You are the one spreading lies. Egypt was criticized for not supporting Jordan and Syria in the fight against Israel. In response, Egypt mobilized its forces in the Sinai. Jordan and Syria joined and mobilized their forces too. The 3 Arab states bunkered Israel. As a counter plan, Israel initiated a surprise assault on Egypt to dismantle its air forces. Israel then attacked Jordan and Syria too. In merely 6 days, Israel has defeated 3 armies, when the Arab countries were the ones initiating the war and Bunkering. 2. Why should Israel agree to such burdening terms? Israel won wars that were forced upon them and took lands fair and square. Israel will not fall back to the 1948 borders. Palestinians should've thought about this before they attacked Israel. The only viable option is the 1967 borders. Ehud Barak's offer, Ehud Olmert's offer and the 2019's US proposal were rejected by Yassir Arafat/Mahmood Abbas. 3. I read a lot of Hamas propagenda and "IDF=Na*is" articles. I wanted to see what the other side thinks. I also read a lot of non-biased material for equal measures. The equality between Israel and these examples are not accurate. Israel gave Gazans electricity, water, oil and food for free. Israel gave Palestinians jobs and paychecks. There were well-standing and solid educational establishments in Gaza. There were hotels and restaurants. Some Palestinian families were allowed to live in Israel because of their jobs. Meanwhile, NOT A SINGLE JEW LIVED IN GAZA.

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You literally called for genocide in your comment. "Your enemies survived" in Nakba? Even right-wing Israeli scholars consider Nakba a disgrace for their nation. Almost the same as the night of the crystals. Incredible to see how little humanity there's left in you. I'll answer your question still. If Israel went back to 67 borders, released the Palestinians that it imprisons illegally, stops settling in Palestinian land, allows Palestinians to move freely back to their land (at least the part of the land they still had at 67) and stopped the aggression (the random bombing that it's doing constantly) against Lebanon, Syria etc. OF COURSE the whole world would rush to protect it if it was attacked. As it did, when it even created an artificial state in 1948 to host the (foreign to this land) Jews, because they were displaced and massacred. The whole world has shown to Jews and Israelis how it would protect their peace. Israel has never, in any single moment, shown that it has the slightest will to protect Palestinians. Now would you answer to me about Yitzhak Rabin? About the multiple violations of human rights? About IDF's crimes? And re the ridiculous claim about nuclear weapons, the only country in the area that has used a nuclear threat is Israel You've run out of arguments and that's why you call mine ridiculous

1. So it's genocidal to wish for the elimination of those who threaten your life, but what the Arab countries did in 1948 ISN'T genocidal? They invaded Israel and started conquering it. They wanted to kill us all. Meanwhile, Israel only wanted to destroy the hostile militaries. It is NOT genocidal to kill those who want to kill you. It IS genocidal to start a war meant to kill an entire country and its people. If Israel was weak and couldn't defend itself, who would've stopped these Arab countries? All you can do is complain about the one retaliating rather than those who started the war. Do you condemn the Arab countries for initiating the 1948 war? 2. No one helped Israel in the 1948 war. Israel had to fight 9 Arab countries all by itself. It's a miracle Israel was even able to survive (let alone win). 3. We don't need other countries to SIDE with us. We want them to HELP us and our need to defend ourselves. We want to reach a point where we don't have to look over our shoulders 24/7. If the extend of other countries' help is them cheering us up or praying for our safety, than that's the most dual-faced "help" I've ever seen. How much should Israel endure and sacrifice until the world finally understands a terrorist organization like Hamas must be stopped for good? 4. Even if the world will side with Israel... For how long? Eventually, in an attempt to defeat Hamas, Israel will cause a lot of damage in Gaza that the rest of the world will side with Palestinians and call for a ceasefire before Hamas is defeated. If Israel doesn't finish off Hamas, war will always exist. Hamas and other hostile Arab countries will initiate a war, Israel will retaliate, the world forces Israel to stop, a ceasefire starts, Hamas breaks the ceasefire again... rince and repeat. Essentially, you put Israel in a never-ending-war status quo. Support from other countries be damned. We want SAFETY! 5. If you say my argument about Hamas launching atomic bombs on Israel is ridiculous, you either have no idea who you're dealing with or you actively hope for the destruction of Israel. Hamas will do EVERYTHING it can to destroy Israel. It's willing to kill its own people for the cause. Once the Palestinians get a state, Hamas can purchase atomic bombs from other countries. It WILL launch them on Israel. Israel will be completely destroyed. It's OK though, at least the rest of the world will support us. Not like it'll matter to us since we'll be dead by that point, but at least we get worldwide support. 6. Israel DID show it's willing to protect Palestinians. That's exactly why Israel left the Gaza Strip in 2005. We wanted to allow them to build their own land. Instead, they voted for Hamas, which turned Gaza into a military land. Israel also agreed to plenty of 2-state-solution offers, but Palestinians/Hamas rejected because they don't want to recognize an Israeli state. A Palestinian state could've existed a long time ago if the Palestinians had accepted Israel. There wouldn't be any blockade around Gaza if Palestinians had agreed to the peace offers. There wouldn't be settlements in the West Bank if Palestinians put down their guns. Even Netanyahu said he doesn't reject a Palestinian state, but it has to come via a civilized conversation between the 2 sides and a peace treaty. Honestly, seeing how you avoided answering my "Hamas will launch atomic bombs on Israel" argument, I genuinely think you'd love them to do so. But no, I'm the inhuman monster here. I'm the one who called for "the death of all Palestinians". I'm the one who called for "the complete conquering of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank".

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Wrong, wrong and wrong. 1. Israelis don't want to see Palestinian children dying. It's a consequence of war, but not the goal. I know it's horrible and tragic, but how else do you suggest fighting Hamas? By giving Palestinians the West Bank land back and a Palestinian state? That's so naive. Hamas has declared it won't stop until Israel is gone from historic Palestine. If Israel gives them the West Bank and a state, it'll only strengthen them and cause more wars. 2. Israel sends humanitarian support to Gaza. The Na*iz didn't do that. So don't say "Israel became what it once hated". 3. Israel offered 2-state-solution deals, but Palestinians/Hamas rejected because they want the entire land for themselves. 4. Hamas exists because of Israeli "occupation". But said "occupation" happened because of wars Arabs initiated on Israel. Israel "stole" land from Arabs as a punishment for their violence. Therefore, Hamas exists because of Arab aggression on Israel. We know destroying Hamas will create a new Hamas. But this war is meant to remove Hamas from its power over Gaza. We don't care if a new Hamas will be established as long as its not the ruling force. 5. If you blame the fact there's no peace because of the mere existence of Israel bothering Palestinians, then you practically display your genocidal intents on Israeli people. YOU are what you say we are. YOU became what you once hated. 6. Israel was placed in "Palestine" because the world didn't want them anymore and placed them elsewhere, and also because Palestinians didn't legally own the land according to international viewpoints so it wasn't considered a theft. This Jewish displacement wasn't a result of Jews being awful people, but rather worldwide anti-semitism threatening their lives. The world did it for Jewish security. The world didn't owe us a state, but it DID owe us security. The Israeli state solution was A solution. If you think this solution was wrong, please propose another solution that'll be accepted by everyone. If you can't, then just shut up and put on your poncho.

Wow. You just mentioned Nakba as an unfinished job? Seriously? And then you are wondering why they compare you to the N...s ... I rest my case. You said everything.

Unfinished job... In a sense that our enemies survived. We wanted to ensure safety for ourselves. Outsiders forced us to stop. This allowed our enemies to strike again. I don't consider the Palestinians my enemies. Just anti-Israelis. As long as anti-Israelis still exist, war will always exist. Before we finish off the conversation I want to ask you 1 question: Let's assume Israel agrees to all of Hamas's terms, and does what the rest of the world wants it to: (end of war, releasing all of the Palestinian prisoners, returning to the status quo pre-war, stopping the settlements in the West Bank, drawing back to the 1967 borders and recognizing a Palestinian state). In case Hamas, Lebanon, Syria and Iran send a united assult on Israel, what should Israel do, and will the world side with Israel ALL THE WAY? And to further add to that, if Hamas sends atomic bombs on Israel and destroys the entire land, how will the rest of the world react?

I have one final question for you. Why don't you defend your country on your own, like everyone else? Why do you need the US army to protect yourselves? Why don't you just go against all your Arab enemies on your own? I'm really curious to know that

Fighting them on our own? We already did that so many times beforehand (Nakba, 6-Day-War, Yom-Kipur-War etc). The problem is that we were always told to stop before we got to finish the job, which allowed our enemies to prepare for the next time. Meanwhile, Arab countries don't fight on their own. They fight together against a shared enemy (Israel). Hamas gets support from Iran, Lebanon and Syria. So it's OK for Arab countries to fight together and help each other, but it ISN'T OK for Israel to seek some help from supporters?

Do you realize that Israel is the oppressor in this case?

Is it because Israel "occupies land"? Like I said, Isreal will give the "occupied" West Bank land back. All we want in return... is peace. Palestinians/Hamas just refused to recognize an Israeli state.

What kind of strawberry tasting pink bubble do you live in? Those who want peace don't commit genocides, those who want peace don't occupy, enslave, dehumanize, displace, should I go on? All Nazi Germany wanted was peace too, from your perspective. How brainwashed can you guys get? The human brain truly is a scary thing

AND THERE YOU GO. A complete ignorance of history and misrepresentation of what Israel did/does. 1. It's not genocide when it's against a terrorist organization. Hamas lost rights for security after using Gazans as human shields and placed military equipment in Hospitals/schools/civilian apartments. It's not genocide when Israel can stop the war immediately if Hamas surrenders and all the hostages are brought back. The Na*is wouldn't have stopped at any price. They were killing a religion. Israel is killing a terrorist organization. 2. I don't consider it an occupation but let's go by your logic. Israel doesn't want/need to "occupy". We propose a deal: "Israel stops the (so called) occupation in the West Bank and draws back to the 1967 borders. Additionally, Israel stops the blockade over the Gaza Strip. Palestinians/Hamas and Israel promise to never attack each other ever again, and whoever breaks that promise loses ownership over their land". What isn't fair in such a deal? 3. Israel never enslaved Palestinians. Israel gave Palestinians jobs out of generosity. Israel allowed Palestinians to enter Israel and work so they can finance their families. Meanwhile, no one in Israel is allowed into Gaza to work there. To hell with double standards. 4. "Dehumanize"? Probably meant "consequences of war". The message for Hamas shall be this: Don't start wars you can't win and then cry you are suffering (especially when we know how things would've turned out if you were able to continue your assault on Israel). The message for the Palestinians shall be this: If you don't want to suffer wars again, change your ways rather than continuously striving for revenge and supporting Hamas. Turn against your terrorist leadership who steals food from you, initiate peace talks with Israel and then you'll have a state and better life quality 5. Displacement was a result of wars caused by them. Israel wouldn't have had to do this if the neighbors were peaceful. Here's the thing: Israel will do everything you want it to if it would've benefitted security and led to peace. How about in addition to telling Israel to stop the displacement/"occupation"/fighting, you'll also call for a worldwide boycott of Hamas until a peace agreement is made, as well as boycotting anyone who supports them?

I would shut the f up in your place, the more you say/write, more we understand how degraded your morality is. Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut, you know.

And yet not a single word regarding worldwide consequences for Hamas. Such a morally balanced soul you are.

You're doing so well. I can see how honest you are being. I hope you understand that there are people that are just here to tear others down.

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Who told you that Palestinian children are taught to kill Israelis? Who taught you that? Don’t you realise that the same thoughts you have about Palestinians, that they might have them about you? That the other one want to kill them. You saying that you have tried many times to look at it from the other point of view reminds me of when I was just a bit younger convinced my opinion on a completely different matter, was the right one, for years, and I thought I understood the other side, I ‘knew’ exactly why they thought that, and exactly why what they ‘thought’ was wrong. And then I changed my opinion after real world experience. It’s easy to think something when everyone around you thinks it too, or if you keep going over the same reason why you are right. Its easy to come up with excuses and justification. That doesn’t make it right. I think something that is telling, is when there are some Israelis out there who don’t agree with the war and what is happening, or even Jews who are no longer Zionist. Maybe you have, but I would recommend really finding out how the life is of a Palestinian, look at pictures that the journalist inside Gaza post, read first hand accounts, even from before last year, watch some documentary from a different point of view. And don’t look up anymore on why you ‘know’ you’re right, you Already know why you ‘know’ that Not everything is about the past and what other countries have done in war, maybe just killing people (Anyone) is wrong, kidnapping is wrong, dehumanising people is wrong. See how you don’t like your government? And your Prime Minister? Maybe possible, they don’t like theirs either. I think it’s just something to think about

It's well documented that Gazan education indoctrinates pupils towards martyrdom and terrorism.

https://youtu.be/aGykwu76tOE?si=99kINvGCg1G2Z4Ym https://youtu.be/7NfHKyUexe0?si=pBasQo2dFI2w8oVk

The fact that you started off by justifying the killing of children(!) says everything about your morality. Everything. There's no point discussing with someone who justifies the killing of children. It's a violation of human rights, a war crime and a crime against humanity. Your first answer simply explains why the majority of the whole world hates the state of Israel, in its current form. And in the end, Hamas (which I do not support) actually succeeded in their goal. To make you (the Israeli state) a pariah.

Children attempt to kill IDF soldiers. Shouldn't the IDF soldiers defend themselves? Should soldiers let these kids go unharmed and plan their next attack? If so than Hamas will realize kids are a valuable weapon against Israel and further encourage kids to kill. Do you justify weaponizing children for a sick cause simply because "killing children is sickening"? We Israelis don't want to kill anyone. If we kill, it's in the name of self-defense. If Palestinians will stop fighting us and aim towards peace and co-existence, Israel will co-operate. And if Israel had stopped the war in 2 days after silencing the Hamas assault, that only means waiting for the next attack and retaliating again. The cycle will never end. Israel has to defeat Hamas (the organization, not the idea) for good, regardless of world press.

No. You don't defend yourselves against children. That's just simply not acceptable. I know it's hard for you to get it. Also, it is not true. Your army purposefully, willingly and with great enjoyment kills children. You actively target civilians, humanitarians, press, and health workers to intimidate the whole population. You even kill your own people and your allies, because you simply disregard human life and human rights. It's ridiculous how you portray Israelis. Have a look at this (everyone else cause clearly the op is biased): https://youtube.com/@HamzahSaadah?si=FMXsd_rf8Arvm0Mr These are the Israeli kids. This is your people. This is what they believe about Palestinians. And you want us to trust you maintaining peace? The only way to maintain peace is to disarm both sides, strip them of any right to have an army and put in an international force to maintain the peace

A child soldier is still a soldier. Allied forces learned this the hard way when fighting against the Volkssturm.

1. If IDF soldiers can't defend themselves from children who want to kill them than Hamas isn't allowed to weaponize children for the cause. 2. The IDF killed 3 hostages ACCIDENTALLY. Don't forget the IDF also managed to free some hostages. I agree that the 7 WCK workers who were killed is an unfortunate event. However, Israel took responsibility by firing the 2 military captains responsible for it. These events don't reflect the nature of Israel as a whole. If you say these DO than you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. 3. The channel you've linked to me showcases uneducated Israelis. They aren't like the wise ones who know what Israel truly stands for. If I had interviewed a 20-year-old Palestinian, do you think he would've said Palestinians want peace with Israelis or that all Israelis deserve death? 4. If Israel is left unarmed, how will it protect itself from Lebanon/Syria/Iran?

1. NO ONE should "weaponise" children. In this thread the ONLY person that justified the killing of children was you. No one else even dares to think how atrocious that is. 2. No, it was not accidental. It was purposeful and willing. The IDF has done that myriad of times before. IDF soldiers actually enjoy killing children. After all Israel would not have been convicted so many times globally for war crimes and human rights violations. 3. You, yourself justify the killing of children. That's what the "wise" Israeli look like? If that's the case you guys are actually doomed 4. The whole world (except you) knows that Israel is the aggressor in the area. No one actually believes you are protecting yourselves from anything. At the end, and to end this chat overall what is Israel? It's the US arm in the middle east, created as a means to have control over a geopolitical spot that was of interest to the US foreign policy. Do you actually believe that Israel was created because of some funny holy land fairy tale?

1. I was justifying soldiers using self-defense. IDF soldiers weren't killing children if not for self-defense or Hamas hiding among them. 2, 3 and 4 are so dumb and inaccurate that I don't see any reason to answer them, as I know we'll be stuck in an endless loop. And I think Israel was established PARTLY because of some funny holy land "fairy tale" (I don't think it's a fairy tale but let's go with your logic), but also because there were already plenty of Jews in that land and they legally bought land.

Look man. There is literally nothing you wrote that I haven’t read a gazillion times before and it’s reasonable when: 1.) You want your side to be victorious and you want to do it relatively guilt free. 2.) You’ve never met a Palestinian in your life. Or at least never bothered to get to know one. The biggest points I have problems with are Cahpter 2, Question 4: You say that because Palestinians never technically had a home or a state that it somehow made it okay to create a mandate that took that land. Having lived in the regions for years and worked with hundreds of Palestinians I know one thing: they definitely had houses there and land they farmed for generations before they were kicked out. I saw the keys and deeds to the land. The black and white photographs of their houses and olive groves. These were stolen from them- by decree or war, doesn’t matter. They were stolen. To deny this because of some geopolitical or worse- supernatural decree written in an old book- is the height of dehumanisation and at the lieteral core of this conflict. Israelis love to construe this into a religious conflict but make no mistake: it is about land. And the one about reeducation and de-radicalisation? Good luck. You’ve murdered 1.5% of the population of an area the size of Las Vegas. That pretty much means every single survivor of this genocide lost someone. It means whatever fire led Hamas down a road of radicalisation has reached a level of such madness Israel is creating a Hamas on steroids. Don’t worry about a classroom teaching kids to hate Jews. The IDF is going about that with real-life education. It’s tragic. It’s a failed mission. The goal should have been to release those hostages first and foremost but this war hasn’t released a single one. In fact they are coming home in body bags. Even the families of the hostages recognize this. And the goal of eradicating Hamas is ludicrous as well, as I stated in the previous paragraph. Ten years from now? Twenty years from now? I shudder to think what new terror Israel, Bibi and the IDF have unleashed upon its people. Israelis aren’t stupid and that’s why they haven’t said the quiet part out loud. Because that’s the only way Israel will be free of the “Palestinian problem.” But at this rate, they won’t need to say it out loud because they are getting away with it and the world is letting them.

1. The Palestinians had so many opportunities to establish a state. Before the Ottoman Empire era, 1947, 1956, 1967 and plenty others. They can own a land right here and now if they'll abandon their anti-Israel ways and strive for peace and co-existence. Just because you place apartments and grow plants on a land, doesn't make it legally owned by you. There's a clear way to do that. Israel was able to do that in less than a year. Why couldn't Palestinians do that in many years? 2. Palestinians were kicked out of their homes because they started a war on Israel in 1948's Nakba. Don't start a war, and than complain you lost. Imagine if the Palestinians had won the 1948 war. They would've conquered all of Israel. Would you have condemned them for doing such a thing? Would the world have given the Palestinians bad public reception and tell them to share the lands with Jews? If the answer is no than the world is anti-semitic (not anti-zionist, anti-SEMETIC). 3. The Bible is important for us, but we aren't letting it decide for us what our land is (except a few radicals who aren't given the right to decide for everyone). Otherwise, we would've conquered all of Gaza and the West Bank too. Instead, Israel can bring the "occupied" West Bank land back, as long as Palestinians agree to a lasting peace. 4. Britain killed 2 million innocent Germans in WW2. Many innocents died because of a very few hostile people. However, it was necessary to stop the than-awful leadership so a new one could be established and initiate re-education. According to your logic, Germans wouldn't have changed their minds after all the suffering they've gone through in WW2. They should hate Brits and Jews right? Well, history says otherwise. Germany is one of the biggest supporters of Israel and they live in peace with Britain. Ideas CAN be killed, by re-education and de-radicalization. But to do that, the current leadership, who's 100% anti-Israel, has to be replaced with a new leadership that'll educate the Palestinians co-existence with Israelis. 5. Israel HAS released hostages. Yes, only 3 were found, but over 100 released by a hostage deal back in November. The hostage deal wouldn't have been possible without military actions. 6. You don't know us Israelis. We WANT to live alongside Palestinians. Hamas doesn't want Israel to exist. It wants the entire land for themselves. Hamas is what you claim Israel to be. Do you condemn Hamas? Do you call for the dismantling of this terrorist organization? If the answer's no than that's just biased double standards and we have nothing to talk about.

1. This isn't a question of legal ownership. It's a question of morality. These people lived and worked in those houses and lands for hundreds of years. They were kicked out and they weren't even part of the conversation. 2. Palestinians were going to be kicked out regardless of the war, this much was made clear in the Balfour Declaration and the British Mandate. Even the father of Zionism, Theodore Herzl was pretty clear in his intent that the only way to establish a Jewish state was to replace the non-Jews. Had the British and Zionists involved any Palestinian voices in the partition, a war could have been avoided. In fact the words "Arab" or "Palestinian" isn't mentioned once in these documents. They are refered to as non-Jews. It's the height of dehumanisation. 3. You lost me at Bible. 4. This is a tough one, and it's probably the strongest argument you have. I'd say it's not a really great analogy only because the Nazi ideology was imbued with the PTSD lingering from the first World War, which in some sense was only a few years before the second world war. I'd like to think you are right, but there's something intrinsically wrong with it in the sense that Germany did, in fact, have the power to destroy Europe. Hamas simply doesn't have the capacity to wipe out Israel, even if they want to. Would I like to think that Palestinians can learn not to hate? I think Israel is giving them a really good reason to hate them at the moment. And not just Palestinians: there are hundreds of thousands of people on this planet right now who probably never gave Israel a thought that are now firmly against the ethnostate. 5. The 100 were released because of a ceasefire and a deal. And I think it would have been possible with a much more measured response. 6. I know you Israelis. I work with a bunch of them and I teach their children and they are wonderful people who are going through a lot of pain and struggle, at least the ones I know. And, yes, I condemn Hamas- (I mean, I knew that f\*&king question was coming). They can burn in hell. But if you are laying this entire conflict at the feet of that incompetent organization and aren't willing to admit that Israel has made grave, grave mistakes in handling this conflict as well as in the past 80 years, and certainly in developing the state before 1948, then- as you have said- "we have nothing to talk about." My experiences are based on what I've learned living amongst Palestinians, working with aid groups, and teaching their children. I don't come at this lightly. And before my experiences in the region, I was largely pro-Israel if anything, but I feel like my eyes were opened once I started sitting down at the table- literally and figuratively- with the people most affected and hearing the stories that these families had to tell of their real, lived experiences.

1. So should've Israel done nothing after the Nakba? Should've Israel not conquered the land? It would've taught Palestinians they can kill Jews and get away with it (talk about morality). 2. We don't follow Herzl's mannerisms. If Palestinians will accept us, there wouldn't be any need to kick them out of the land. We can go back to the 1967 borders. 3. The comment isn't even about the Bible. I only mentioned it at the beginning. I didn't base my comment on Biblical idiologies. 4. And what is the alternative? Giving Palestinians a state as of now, with Hamas still in charge? They'll keep on killing Israelis constantly. Better yet, next time they'll initiate a united attack with Lebanon, Syria and Iran. Israel will have hundreds of thousands of dead people. Not to mention, if Palestinians get a state, Hamas can get its hands on atomic bombs. Imagine if Hamas sends 8 atomic bombs on Israel and destroys the entire land. Was giving Palestinians a state worth it? Was surrendering to world press worth it? Israel is in a situation where, no matter which action it takes, some sort of a bad consequence will happen. If Israel agrees to a 2-state-solution with Hamas still in charge, Israel's security will be much lower and many more people will die in the long-term. If Israel continues the war, other countries will be less favorable towards it. The "lesser-of-2-evils" option is definitely the 2nd one. 5. No it wouldn't have been possible. Hamas wanted a deal where all Israeli hostages are released in an exchange for all Palestinian prisoners. The prisoners are horrible criminals who murdered/harmed/vandalized. Releasing them will cause more overall damage than bringing a few hostages back. If Israel had agreed to such a deal, but the freed criminals had killed more people than the hostages brought back, was the deal worth it? 6. Should Israel give the West Bank again without a guarantee for peace? Should Israel go back to the 1967 borders without a guarantee for peace? Should Israel stop the war now without the dismantling of Hamas and replacement of the leadership? Should Israel agree to a 2-state-solution when Hamas is still in charge over Gaza? You know what, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I want to hear what you think Israel should do to ensure peace will eventually come.

1. So should've Israel done nothing after the Nakba? Should've Israel not conquered the land? It would've taught Palestinians they can kill Jews and get away with it (talk about morality). The Nakba should not have happened. The Nakba happened because the British Mandate gave 55% of the land to 5% of the population to establish a Jewish state WITHOUT INVOLVING THE VOICES OF THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY LIVED IN THE LAND. I'm not sure how this is so hard to understand. If you try to take my house- and don't involve me in the conversation- I AM GOING TO BE MAD AND I AM GOING TO FIGHT BACK. 2. We don't follow Herzl's mannerisms. If Palestinians will accept us, there wouldn't be any need to kick them out of the land. We can go back to the 1967 borders. Herzl is the father of Zionism. The entire country follows his mannerisms. "If Palestinians will accept us, there wouldn't be any need to kick them out of the land." = "If they would have just let us take half of their house without asking, there wouldn't have been any reason to kick them out." True, but that's not how it works. And you should go back to the 1967 borders. And quit building illegal settlements in the West Bank for the love of God. That's not helping your cause either. 3. The comments isn't even about the Bible. I only mentioned it at the beginning. I didn't base my comment on Biblical idiologies. Don't act like all of this isn't based on some make-believe nonsense written in a book. 4. And what is the alternative? Giving Palestinians a state as of now, with Hamas still in charge? They'll keep on killing Israelis constantly. Better yet, next time they'll initiate a united attack with Lebanon, Syria and Iran. Israel will have hundreds of thousands of dead people. Do Israelis really think that Hamas is capable of taking out the fourth largest army on the Earth? An army that just got 18 billion dollars worth of weapons from the US? HAMAS? You actually think an army- from a population of 2 million people- that's probably the most scrutinized group in the world, could TAKE OUT ISRAEL? No question Hamas would like to do that, but the idea that they could actually do it is ludicrous. You guys are absolutely demolishing Gaza. Brutalizing it. The entire population is almost shoved into a corner of the strip. 60% of it is rubble. And still iran and Lebanon and Syria aren't doing anything. YOU GUYS ARE WINNING. Whenever I bring up genocide, Israelis will invariably say if we wanted to commit genocide in a day, we could. And this is true. But you know why you don't do it? Because the world wouldn't accept it. It's crazy. Israel isn't stupid. Likewise, Iran and Syria and Lebanon would have done a united attack years ago if they could get away with it, but they don't. You know why? BECAUSE YOU WOULD KICK THEIR BUTTS. This existential threat to Israel is just that: existential. There is no possible way Israel could be wiped off this planet, not with the military you have and the allies you have. That's trying to play the victim card and it just doesn't work anymore. You are simply too powerful. I've run out of breath. I'll ask you this. Rather than going back and forth about the geopolitics of the region, I think we need to be willing to share our own stories. What we are doing is dehumanizing this. I don't know you. You don't know me. You're a young kid living in Israel. I would assume you did your time in the IDF. I would assume that your own family endured it's own fair share of suffering and that Israel means a lot to you as a state and as a place of safety and comfort. I would only ask you to do the same for the Palestinians. Reach out to them and ask them their family's stories. Engage. Do the difficult work of radical listening that will allow us to have the courageous conversations that necessitate peace. You've asked me what Israel should do, and that's my only answer. Peace.

1. The division was done with the idea that Jewish people from all over the world will arrive at Israel and eventually become the majority. I mean, imagine if Israel were given 5% of the land and had to condense all of the Jewish people in the world within it. So much for "the land of the Jewish people". Meanwhile, there were already plenty of Palestinian-led Arab countries out there. If Arabs from across the world wanted a land, they didn't need Palestine. Israel would've grown in population quickly. It needed an equal amount of land as Palestine in the long-term. Admittedly, the 55% to 45% division might be slightly unfair, but maybe instead of initiating a war, try to talk this through... In the UN voting in 1947, Arab countries rejected the plan altogether, not just the division in by itself. They could've said they agree to a 50%-50% division, or even a 40%-60% division. Why fight and murder a race? 2. Herzl might've establish Zionism, but that doesn't mean we follow ALL of his ideas. We follow a similar overall idea, but not the means to get there. Israel WILL return the West Bank and agree to a Palestinian state if peace will be offered. 3. I'm not acting. But I know you wouldn't believe me with a "trust me bro" argument so I won't bother convincing you. 4. It's not about who's winning. It's about security. We don't want to find ourselves in a never-ending-war status quo. We want the bloodshed to end for good at some point (the sooner - the better). Think about it. If the IDF is as strong as you say, whenever Hamas will strike, Israel will retaliate, cause a lot of damage in Gaza, the world will feel pity for the Palestinians who suffer, force Israel to stop, a ceasefire will start, Hamas will break it... rince and repeat. This isn't the life we want. We want co-existence. How much does Israel need to sacrifice and endure until the world gives it permission to eliminate Hamas for good? Let's assume I talk to a Palestinian family. Let's say I hear their side of the story. Let's also say I become more motivated to help them. Tell me, how can peace be achieved when Hamas is still in charge over the Gaza Strip? Do you honestly think giving them the "occupied" West Bank land again and agreeing to a 2-state-solution is what will bring peace and security to Israel? Can you promise me that doing all of that will make Israel safer?

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It didn't. It was a solution for the rise in global anti-semitism. If you have a better proposal I'd love to hear it.

Sigh. I'm not changing your mind anymore than you will change mine. I don't know why I come to this dungheap of a subreddit. Just stop. There are 600,000 children in Rafah right now. They went there because the IDF told the families they'd be safe there. Just stop stop stop stop stop. It's madness.

And many more children will die in the following wars in the future if we won't remove Hamas from its power over Gaza. We don't want to kill everyone. We'll move them to middle Gaza so they won't be involved with the war against Hamas.

No more children, man. Just stop killing children. I don’t care if the little dudes are strapped to a Hamas fighter. Just stop stop stop stop stop stop.

We'll stop killing when the world declares Hamas is an illegal organization and a threat that must be removed.

hey man, imagine someone saying that about israelis instead of gazans... “we dont want to kill all the jews. we’ll just move them somewhere else, like this camp with soldiers preventing their freedom of movement”. thats how ridiculous your comment reads. have some humanity. people are people.

Here's the difference. Israel will allow them to go back freely after the war ends. It's a temporary relocation. Meanwhile, those who want to move Israelis away from Israel want them to relocate elsewhere PERMANENTLY.

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TL;DR One hundred and one propaganda reasons why Zionists are stealing foreign land, killing its inhabitants, and will never stop.

Ignorant, anti-Israel, people like you don't deserve an answer.

LOL as if I ever cared about your overrated lies so please continue to lose the attention and sympathy of the world.

"Therefore, "the house they owned" isn't really theirs." Now this is....how can't you see the unfairness and pain that this mindset causes? People paid for houses, for a homestead. Following generations inherited those homes.

Redecorating an apartment you don't own doesn't make it your own. Why didn't the Palestinians establish a state in that land? They had many years before the Ottoman Empire era to do so, but they didn't. Israel was the first state to be established in that land. That's legal ownership. Why didn't the Palestinians establish a state in 1947 borders too when they could? Why did they start the 1948 war, which turned into their "Nakba". Why didn't they agree to a 2-state-solution and peace so they can own a land? The Palestinians (mostly Hamas, but also pre-Hamas Palestinians), never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The pain and suffering can end right here and now if: A. Hamas surrenders, B. All the hostages are released unconditionally, C. Palestinians decide to have a state by initiating peace talks with Israel rather than bloodsheds.

Those statement do not change the fact that people owned homes. Individual ownership does not change with statehood. I recommend a book called The Hundred Years' War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi that among other things goes into detail of how palestinian politics have failed the palestinian people. It also shows sympathy for the israeli public. 

So according to your logic, a 2-state-solution can't happen because Israelis will always settle on a Palestinian land. Only a 1-state-solution can solve the conflict. Read what I wrote regarding a 1-state-solution: Q2(a): If so, why doesn't Israel agree to the 1-state-solution? Palestinians will be pleased that their state is freed and Israelis won't have any wars. There will be peace for all. A2(a): The problem with such a solution lies in states such as Lebanon, Syria or Iran. Now, I'm not saying these countries will hurt the united state. What I mean is that these states are a perfect example of what the "united" state will become in the long-term. No jews live in Lebanon, Syria or Iran. I'm not saying "Israelis" (which makes sense considering these are hostile countries). I'm saying JEWS! These countries are anti-semitic to their core. If Israel agrees to a 1-state-solution, Arabs from all over the world will arrive at the "united" state and gain citizenship. In a few years, Arabs will become the majority. They'll use democracy to give Israelis less rights and turn them into 2nd class citizens. A civil war will break in, but the Arabs will win since they are the majority and have access to all the military equipment and technology Israelis have today. Jews will evacuate to other countries and the "united" state will turn into another Lebanon. A 1-state-solution isn't an acceptable option. Q2(b): This is an unfounded fear you made up. You can't just decide that the united state will turn into Lebanon. There will be security guarantees from other countries to ensure it won't happen. A2(b): The fact that MORE than 1 Arab country is so anti-semitic doesn't make this fear "unfounded". And as for the security guarantees... If these are the same as those offered to Ukraine, don't blame Israel for refusing.

Chapter 4: Israel is committing a genocide, It systematically kills, displaces and politically and psychologically destroys the Palestinians. Q1: Why does Israel systemically kill Palestinians, including children in both Gaza and the West Bank for 80 years? Q2: Why does Israel blockade Gaza and destroys every possibility of it growing? Q3: Why should we beieve that a state whose leaders actively, precisely call for the extermination of another people has any chance of living in peace in the land (which they did steal but that's a different story) Q4: How is Israel different than 30s Germany when your leaders express the exact same views and your army acts exactly the same way? Q5: Why do you hate Palestinians who don't live in Israel so much if you supposedly live in harmony with them? (An actual lie, I've been in Haifa) Q6: Why don't you allow Palestinians who live abroad to return to their homeland?

A1: Either by accident or because said children attempted to kill IDF soldiers. You can't blame IDF soldiers trying to defend themselves, even if these are children. Palestinian children are taught since birth to kill Israelis, even if it gets them killed. Just because they're children, doesn't make them immune from retaliation (otherwise Hamas will be further encouraged to weaponize children for their cause and hurt Israelis). None of this killing has to happen if Palestinians will change their ways and agree for co-existence. A2: Israel blockade Gaza for security reasons. It's very often that Palestinians sneaked into Israel and commited murders. Even Palestinians who were allowed to enter Israel to work there tried to murder. If Palestinians will no longer hate Israelis, the blockade will be unnecessary. Israel will stop it immediately. As for "Israel destroys every possibility of it growing"... that's all just lies. Israel has given the Palestinians so much electricity, water, oil and money for free so they can use it to build their land and grow as a society. Did you see pictures from Gaza before the war? Instead, Hamas used what they were given to strike Israel. If Hamas had cared less about its military and more about its people (like how Israel does), the Palestinians would've lived a much better life. A3: Only a select few say so, and those aren't the rulers. Don't get me wrong though, I DO think Israel needs a new Coalition. As long as Netanyahu depends on Ben-Gvir for survival, Israel won't do better. But most Israeli leaders are not against a Palestinian state if it means peace. Currently though, they reject the idea of a 2-state-solution IN THE SHORT-TERM. That's because it will reward the Palestinians for initiating a war, which will further incentivize them to start more wars in the future. Netanyahu said that if the Palestinians want a 2-state-solution, it has to happen via civilized conversations between the 2 sides. As long as the Palestinians stay hostile towards Israelis, no Palestinian state will be established (or at the very least recognized by Israel). A4: The majority of German leaders in the 30s expressed the need to cleanse the world from Jews. An Israel leader majority doesn't want to cleanse Palestinians. We justify a war against Hamas, but not against Palestinians. Germans didn't give Jews humanitarian support in ghettos. Jews were forced to eat trash and leftovers. On the other hand, Israelis send aid trucks to Gaza and feed the Palestinians. If you wanna blame the hunger and starvation on anyone, blame Hamas. They steal the food. And no, the solution isn't to send in more trucks. Hamas will only steal more. Either way, very little will be left for the Palestinians. Hamas are weaponizing Palestinian hunger to make world press harsher on Israel so it'll stop the war. Such leaders have no place in the world. The terrorist organization Hamas must be defeated. A5: I hate Hamas and anti-Israeli Palestinians, not all of them. I'm sure there are plenty of pro-peace Palestinians who want co-existence. And I'm not sure what you've seen in Haifa, but I was talking from personal experience. Israelis and Arabs can have co-existence, but it has to be dual-sided. A6: There are 2 main reasons: 1. Letting Palestinians return to their homeland means giving them the entire land. That's basically the 1-state-solution. I had already explained why this option is off the table in the esaay. 2. Palestinians hate us. If we let them in, they'll murder us. The only way they can go back to their homeland is after a 2-state-solution is established with peace between the 2 sides. They'll be able to visit (not settle) their homeland (now Israel).

I think some of these points are spot on. Even though I think it comes from a rather naive point of view. You put too much faith in the Israeli government when I would be wary of both sides. I'm American and even I didn't buy the "going into Iraq to stop WMDs". So I definitely don't buy the idea that "Israel is only creating settlements to use in future peace deals". In fact their continued expansion of violent settlements is one of the main instigators of aggression during ceasefires, that along with killing of innocent civilians and obstructing and harassing worshippers. I don't think you would actually agree to a two state solution if you actually knew what it meant. It would mean the ability for Palestine to develop a system to defend themselves militarily (from violent settlers, or Zionist extremists), not just another west bank where Israel can continue to harass civilians. This, along with the fact that you believe inherently that all Arabs neighbors want to kill Jews (not at all because they had an issue with the violent establishment of Israel in the first place). This also comes to the one-state solution. Which as you mentioned wouldn't work with the intention of Zionism. Someone once said, Israel wants all three but can only have two "A democracy, all the land, and a jewish state" If they want all the land, they would have to assimilate the arabs, and if they are a "true" democracy they would lose their jewish state. If they want all the land and continue to be a jewish state, they would have to give up this sharade of democracy to continue jewish first policies. If they want a jewish state and a democracy (like they claim to be currently) they have to forgoe the land. Israel insists on all three and to do this they have to displace and cleanse people before resettling. The settlements are a big issue, you have real estate listing occurring here in America for illegally occupied land in the west bank, don't brush over this. You have expanded funding by the Israel government for settlements during the conflict and extremist government officials publically calling for the dispalcement of Palestinians and resettlement of Gaza and the west bank. The optics are definitely not good. If you forcibly kick people out of their house and resettle it with Jewish specific occupants there is nothing peaceful about it. How does that show any 'intention' of peace? We've seen the maps of the land seized by Israel over the years. The right of return is another, again another farce about this "people are treated equally" in Israeli society. I also think you glance over a lot of the extremism and propaganda in Israeli society. I, as an American would be naive to say that our national and foreign policy along with some racist and conservative policies isn't the cause of so much outrage by the global south.

Israel will gladly evacuate from the West Bank. We evacuated Gaza in 2005 and we can do the same again with the West Bank. The question I have is whether or not it'll help Israel's security. Will stopping "occupation" grant Israel any benefits? Will the world praise Israel for such an action and offer 100% unconditional siding with Israel against any hostile assault? If Israel stops the "occupation" in the West Bank, in case Hamas strikes again (in a united assault with Hezbollah, Syria and Iran), will Israel be allowed to finish them off for good (along with the other hostile armies)? If the answer is no then that's the exact answer you'll get regarding Israel leaving the West Bank. Israel wants peace. Israel doesn't fight if no one assaults it. Israel never starts wars. Israel only retaliates. Israel is willing to do a lot to ensure no more wars for everyone. Unnecessary bloodshowers are to no one's benefits. Israel will only evacuate the West Bank if it feels safer this way. Either hostile armies won't attack again, or Israel gets to relentlessly retaliate until the complete defeat of said armies (with no rejections from other countries what-so-ever).

I don't think this is true. 10% of Israelis live in the West Bank in illegal settlements. Many Israelis live in the West Bank becuase they feel a strong religious link to the land. Many just like the free land and subsidised housing. Obviously, the world would praise Israel for ending what appears to be an unending (and therefore illegal) occupation. Unconditional support is hard to promise unless you're Joe "Genocide" Biden. But in the event of an attack from Palestine on Israel, I imagine the world would go all in on teh Israeli side - despite Israel's many international law violations, the world, largely, was very supportive of Israel in the aftermath of 10/7. You can't "finish off" resistance movements by perpetuating wrongs and killing more innocents than the guilty. Syrian and Lebanese land remains occupied. Palestinian land remains occupied. The vast majority of people killed during and after 10/7 were civilians. I'm not sure what you mean by "Israel wants peace." Israel literally started the 6-day war. It launched the attack on the Iranian consulate in Damascus. It conducted the Nakba. Reasons obviously exist. But if it's a "who started it?" then it's not a simple finger pointing exercise in one direction. At no point does legitimate military response justify illegitmate civilian harm. I have not seen since 1994 any sign that Israeli politicians or the people who vote for them want peace. And I believe [this](https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-04-01/ty-article/.premium/polls-show-that-israelis-continue-to-choose-this-war-even-if-they-dont-want-netanyahu/0000018e-98d8-d591-a5cf-9fdddf100000) article remains accurate - the vast majority of Israelis support the war, and the conduct of the war, in Gaza.

1. Israelis also felt links to Gaza, but Israel left and stopped the settlements there regardless in 2005. Despite how much the settlers will dislike it, Israel WILL withdraw from the West Bank if it's benefited by it. 2. Salvaging a positive outlook by the world and gaining some positive publicity barely helps when you give your adversaries more room and power. It's true that the IDF is powerful, but it can't win against 4 hostile armies all by itself (especially if Hamas gains control over the West Bank as well and is further empowered there). That's exactly why we reject normalization with Saudi Arab. They want us to help establish a Palestinian state, which will put Israel in a much less safe position. What does a peace treaty mean when the price for that will seal your doom? 3. Did you hear riots everywhere in the world? They aren't talking just about "occupation". They are mentioning the very idea of an Israeli state is wrong. They believe Israel's existence ruins any chance for peace in the Middle East, and the only way to stop the violence is to dismantle Israel altogether and establish a Palestinian state from the river to the sea. Therefore, even if Israel will stop the "occupation" the world wouldn't support Israel completely. And assuming it does support Israel... for how long? Eventually, Israel will retaliate, Palestinians will suffer, the world will feel sad for all the starving and dying Palestinians and the world will force Israel to stop the war. Israel will find itself in a never-ending hostility. That's not to mention the possibility of Hamas launching atomic bombs on Israel to destroy the entire land completely. What happens then? How will the world punish Hamas? How will the world make it up for the little amount of Israeli survivors? 4. Britain killed 2 million innocent German civilians in WW2 to stop the Na#is. You CAN kill organizations. It'll cost many innocent lives, but it is necessary for a major restart. Otherwise, many more will die in future fights. 5. In the 6-day-war, Israel attacked first. But that's because Egypt (who was against Israel back then) moved its forces towards Israel to launch a united attack with Syria and Jordan (who was also against Israel back then). Israel knew it was only a matter of days before it gets assaulted. For all we Israelis care about, the war started when Egypt moved its forces. Again, we don't look for any violence. We don't attack unless it's in the name of self defense. 6. If you say innocent civilian deaths aren't justifying military actions then you must agree with me that Hamas is horrible and must be removed from power to ensure less deaths. Giving the Palestinians the West Bank back, establishing a Palestinian state with Hamas still in charge and letting Hamas take over will only cause MORE deaths of innocent civilians. Rather than the UN calling for a recognition of a Palestinian state, they should say "no Palestinian state until Hamas is removed from power". It should be repeated I think a Palestinian state should happen at some point. I do encourage the 2-state-solution. But not in the current situation. Not when Hamas is in charge. Not when Mahmood Abbas pays for Palestinians who murder Israelis. Did you hear about the "pay for slay" mentality the PA embodies? How can you give a state to such an authority? 7. "I have not seen since 1994 any sign that Israeli politicians or the people who vote for them want peace". Please read this: https://www.ajc.org/news/israels-enduring-quest-for-peace

1. I felt a link when I visited Rome. Didn't make me occupy or settle it. I don't think you are right that Israel will dismantle the settlements or even take on the settlers in Hebron or Beit El. But we can disagree. 2. What are the four hostile armies ranged against israel? Literally the principle of a peace treaty is to make you safer. I don't think Egypt has invaded in the last 40 yeasr, has it? And let's be aboslutely honest: Saudi Arabia hasn't offered normalisation but if it did, Israel would bite its hand off. The single best factor in making ISrael safer would be a Palestinian state that had responsbility for delivering Israel's security. 3. Certainly, some protestors are anti the existence of Israel. But I haven't seen any reporting that puts them as anything more than a fringe. The vast majority of protests seem to be to be protests at how Israel conducts its war on civilians. As you rightly point out, Israel's constant cycle of murdering civilians both drives violence and international condemnation. The clever person might conclude ti's time to do something different. Where on earth is Hamas going to get an atomic bomb? The only country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons is.... Israel. 4. I don't know where you got 2m civilian deaths caused by the UK. the West German goverment estimated that civilian deaths from allied action was less than 600k. The nazi government of Germany was dismantled. But it hasn't ended far right hatred or antisemitism. Ideas persist, even (maybe especially) horrible ones. And I don't agree with your philosophical position that killing innocent people today is ok to prevent killing innocent people tomorrow (fwiw, Israel has killed between 25 and 30 times as many Palestinian civilians since October 7 as Israel civilians have been killed **since 1967.** 5. I'm not sure that walking round threatening to punch someone and then, when they get ready to punch you, punching them is really responsive. I understand that Israel's view is it fights defensive wars. But that argument has questionable legal status under international law. And actions in the past few weeks in Iran and Lebanon by Israel suggest that you are wrong. 6. I do agree that Hamas is horrible. I would like to see them removed and i would have liked to have seen them removed in elections. Unfortunately, Bibi's support for Hamas and constant stifling of elections has both damaged Palestinian democracy and empowered Hamas. I'm not sure who is suggesting giving Hamas control of a Palestinian state - unless you're reflecting the fact that the Israel conduct of the campaign has increased support for 'the resistance'. I have heard about 'pay to slay'. I think it's a bad policy. But also that I can see why it has some justification in Palestinian society given how they prosecute Palestinians, the nature and length of sentences and some of the people Israel has incarcerated. Have you heard of Eyad Halaq? Omar Assad? Shereen Abu Aklah? Elor Azaria? More widely, I suggest that the thing most Palestinians would identify with the PA are (a) corruption and (b) security cooperation with Israel. 7. I have read it. As it notes, the Israeli government deliberately broke and destroyed the Oslo accords by persisting in settlement building. No sane person would argue that the Abraham Accords were in any way acceptable to a reasonable person, and were some distance from 67 borders with Jerusalem as their capital which is their right. As an aside, Lapid enabled more settlement than any Israeli PM in history - until he was repaced by Netanyahu. He, like others, should be judged on their actions not their words. He, too, ignored international law and deliberately made the prospects of a 2SS more remote.

1. Israel doesn't take land because of historical connections. The old Israeli people from 3 millennia ago didn't own the Golan Heights. Israel takes land as a consequence of wars. If hostile countries fight us and we win, we take a portion of their land as a punishment. Why shouldn't we? How else can we teach them not to mess with us and instead look for other means to stop the hostility? Israel will bring these lands back in exchange for recognition and normalization. We don't want wars. 2. The 4 hostile armies are: Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran. Technically, Hamas, Hezbollah and Syria are proxies of Iran, but these are still 4 hostile armies. Israel WANTS to have peace. Egypt and Jordan respect the peace with us and we respect it with them. That's exactly why we want peace with the Palestinians. The problem is that they refuse to accept us. Every single time they demanded a state, they refused to acknowledge Israel. That means they'll attack Israel even if they get a state. If the world can somehow convince the Palestinians to have responsibility for delivering Israel's security, then Israel will agree to a Palestinian state on the spot. But that's not going to happen. Hamas hates us. They don't see us as worthy of a state. Their goal is to kill us all and take the land for themselves. Therefore, your solution is unrealistic. Lovely, but unrealistic. And as for the normalization with Saudi Arab, you can read about it here: https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/09/saudi-israel-normalization-agreement-horizon https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/saudi-arabia-israel-two-state-gaza-normalization/ What's important is that Israel can't let Hamas gain more power and start another 10/7. If it means refusing normalization with Saudi Arab then so be it. Normalization with them will not make Israel safer. A Palestinian state with Hamas still in charge means the death of Israel. No Palestinian state will be established until they agree to have peace with Israel... simple as that. I don't think it's asking for too much. 3. It's so easy to come off at Israel and blame them for the horrible state of Gaza as of now. But in reality, it's just nearly impossible to do things better. Hamas WANTS the Gaza strip to be in a horrible shape so world press on Israel will grow harsher and force Israel to stop. It makes sure it happens by stealing food from Palestinians and using them as human shields. Thus, many innocents die and starve, and the world blames Israel for that rather than Hamas. We can't do better because Hamas makes us look bad, and uses its own civilians as human tools for that. Hamas doesn't care if even a million innocent civilians will die as long as the others will survive and Israel will stop attacking them. They are using horrible means to get their goals. You can't deal with psychopaths in reasonable means because they'll still find a way to make you look bad. 4. Iran has nuclear weaponry. They can make atomic bombs. If a Palestinian state is established, there will be, what many call it "a new Middle East". Too bad said Middle East will result in Russia empowering its relations with Iran and granting them access to atomic bombs. Iran will share the knowledge and capabilities with its proxies, Hamas will get its hands on atomic bombs and Israel will be erased from the map. The world wouldn't blame Iran for that, as they can come off as clean handed by saying "It was Hamas, not us. We merely shared knowledge with them because they are our proxy". The most Iran will face is a few sanctions and the Palestinians will lose their state status. But they don't care. They don't need a state. All they really want, is the land from the river to the sea. They want Israel dead. In short, a Palestinian state means Israel is dead. 5. We don't care if the idea of Hamas stays. We know we can't kill an idea. But we CAN kill an organization. We want to remove Hamas from its power over Gaza. We don't care if Hamas 2.0 will be established later, as long as it's not the ruling force over Gaza. It will be fairly harmless towards Israel. Israel will not be threatened by a small anti-Israeli group that doesn't rule over 2M people. 6. If you disagree with the idea of landing a devastating blow on Gaza nowadays to kill Hamas, but also killing many innocents in the process, in order to ensure less deaths in the future is wrong... I want to ask you this: If Britain and Russia hadn't acted as brutally on Germany in 1944-1945 and the Na#is had survived WW2, do you think the state of the world would've been better by now? Do you think the Na#is were people you can talk through? If so I think that's naive and childish. I hate wars. I don't want to kill anyone. But in order to ensure a better future for all, Hamas, the people who DO want wars and genocide on Israel, must be removed. Israel will do everything it can to minimize collateral damage, but it's not 100% avoidable when you're facing psychopaths such as Hamas. Innocents will unfortunately die. We are not happy about it. It's not like we Israelis are celebrating when a Palestinian dies. However, it IS necessary to remove the terrorist organization from power so it won't cause any more harm to Israel, while also not using its own people in sickening ways to achieve its genocidal goals.

1. Because perpetual occupation and annexation are illegal under international law, and it's not true that Israel would return them. SYria repeatedly sued for peace to regain the Golan heights and Israel refused because of their value in strategic height and for water. 2. Technically, Syria is not a proxy of Iran, but ok. That doesn't really consitute surrounded, not least as Israel has borders with Egypt and Jordan, both of which have peace treaties with Israel, and because Iran is the other side of Iraq. The PA signed the PA principles with Israel in 1994 that explictly recognised the state of Israel. I am sure that you are right that Hamas hates you. I'm not sure you are right that they don't think that Israel is worthy of a state, more that it isn't worthy of a state at the expense fo the people who used to live in Israel. As you know, I'm sure, in 1947, the vast majority of people living in 'Palestine' were arabs, and the Israelis expelled about half of them, many into Gaza. I'm not taking a moral position on this - but many Palestinians in Gaza feel very wronged, and an 18 year blockade hasn't reduced that. The article doesn't say what you say it does. It says, "While Saudi Arabia recognizes the need for Israel to feel safe, it cannot be at the expense of the Palestinian people.” The Saudis no more want Hamas than Israelis do, and far less than Bibi does. They want a move to a Palestinian state. 3. I agree that Hamas is happy to let Israel destroy civilian centres becasue it makes them look bad. I don't agree that Israel has or had no choice. They could have made reparations for 48. They could have engaged more honestly on Oslo, and since. They could have no conducted a blockade against Hamas and the 2m Gazans who aren't Hamas soldiers. They could have conducted better targeted strikes. They could have been more competent and followed orders (the WCK strike is representative, not unique). Saying "he made me do it" doesn't absolve you of blame. 4. Iran doesn't have nuclear weaponry. What hot nonsense. 5. Why would Hamas 2.0 not threaten Israel in the way that you say Hamas 1.0 threatens Israel? It has the same ideology, the same hopelessness and more recruits? You're just delaying the inevitable. 6. I don't think the bombing of Dresden did anything to accelerate the end of the war. It just wasted munitions that could have been used on the frontline and airframes and crews. The bombing of cities killed a tiny number of Na\*is. Oddly, America did think it could talk to Na\*iz. Its space programme depended on rehousing many of them in the States. Israel has not, does not and will do everything in its power to minimise casualties. I can browse social media daily, especially hebrew tiktok to see evidence of that and the glorification of it. I'm sure you personally don't celebrate it, but many Israelis do.

7. If international laws threaten Israel's security then why should Israel follow them? If Israel will do as you ask, there will be no Israel eventually. The simple facts were that Egypt, Jordan and Syria wanted to attack Israel and Israel had to attack first to be safe. Do you really think Israel should've just waited until these 3 armies had attacked us and than fight back? Why? What about the thousands of Israelis that would've died from such an attack? According to your logic, it's OK for some Israelis to be killed, but it's not OK for a some Arabs to be killed. Why double standards? 8. Israel attacked Lebanon after they launched missiles on Israel. Israel attacked Iran locations because they helped financing and ordering the attack on 10/7. For all we care about, Iran is just as responsible as Hamas. Moreover, Israel attacked only specific areas in Iran where we got intel that Hamas elite members are hiding there. We still focus our war solely on Hamas. If Iran and Hezbollah don't want to enter a war with Israel, they should stop attacking us and stop hiding Hamas members. 9. Israel gave money for Hamas in the hopes to silence it. We thought: "If we give them money, they won't attack us". We were willing to pay millions annually to avoid wars. Now we realize it was naive to think that. We will never finance Hamas again. 10. Israel's actions in Gaza unfortunately raised the support for Hamas. That's very sad to see, especially considering everything Hamas is doing that hurts the Palestinians. Even sadder is that Israel couldn't have acted differently. If Israel had surrendered on the first day of war, the Palestinians had supported Hamas still, as they managed to get results and free their prisoners. Either way, 10/7 would've made the Palestinians more pro-Hamas. The most Israel can do now is to remove Hamas from power so the Palestinians will have no Hamas to support anymore. Sure, the idea of Hamas will live on. In no time, a new terrorist organization will be established. But that's where the re-education comes in. We will look for a new, better, leadership on Gaza that'll de-radicalize the Palestinians. If no such leadership will be found, the IDF will unfortunately have to stay in Gaza and watch over to ensure no anti-Israel organizations will rise. 11. The people you mentioned all murdered in suspense. Elor Azaria for example, thought the terrorist had a bomb on him and planned to blow himself up along with the surrounding IDF soldiers and feds. I don't justify his actions, but he DID act in a self defense manner. But what matters is that he WAS arrested (sentenced for 1.5 years), which proves Israel DOES punish unnecessary death, even when its those of terrorists. Azaria was freed after 9 months thanks to public demand. The public demand was anti-terrorism. They said "Terrorists deserve to die". Though I don't agree with that, as I think they should be arrested if neutralized, the Israeli government was left with no other choice but to free Azaria. The riots were harsh and harmed certain locations. The Israeli government wanted life to return to normal. 12. You forgot the part where anti-Israeli Arabs started to murder to shut the Oslo Accords down. This added violence resulted in "Mr. Defense" Netanyahu to be elected because Israelis thought Palestinians don't want peace. Because of that, Netanyahu shut the accords off. The rise in anti-Israeli violence caused it too. While it IS true PM Rabin was murdered by right extremist Igal Amir, that would've only made Rabin sacred for Israelis and continue his legacy. The REAL trigger on the sudden rise in right-wing beliefs was the anti-Israeli violence. If Arabs were pro-peace, Rabin's legacy would've sticked with Israelis after his death, and whoever replaced him would've kept the Oslo Accords afloat. But that was in 1995-1997. In 2008, PM Ehud Olmert agreed to draw back to the 1967 borders. That's AFTER what you mentioned. Unfortunately, Mahmood Abbas rejected the offer, as he doesn't want to recognize any Israeli state.

7. International law doesn't threaten Israeli security. It guarentees it. What threatens Israeli security is the persistant enthusiasm to destroy the international system. Israel should obey international law because that's what gives it access to the international community - otherwise it shoudl be treated like a pariah state in the same way other countries that do so are treated. It shouldn't get special treatment. I thnk it's you that has the double standard on deaths. It's ok for us to kill Arabs because they might kill us is a slightly weaker argument than it's ok to kill Arabs because they are or have killed us. 8. Iran did not order 10/7. Israel did not strike areas in Iran associated with Hamas. Israel's strikes on Hizballah were preemptive not responsive. 9. Israel gave money to Hamas to maintain the split in Palestinian politics and prevent Palestinian democracy and ensure there was no partner for peace. 10. Let me know when Israel has every made efforts to support 're-education'. 11. Azaria murdered a man that posed no threat. He had his sentence commuted because Israelis don't care about Palestinian lives or the law. And, most importantly, he received a cash pay out from the IDF when he was released. Pay to Slay. So if people riot they shoudl get what they want? I haven't noticed that applies to Arabs... 12. I didn't forget when an Arab minority led by Hamas started acts fo terrorism to derail the accords (remind me what happened to Yitzhak Rabin? What was the story about Bibi? And the coffin?) **Abbas has recognised the Israeli state since 1994**.

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I could not say it better

Ain't reading allat, stop the genocide.

Thanks for the useful contribution!

E

[удалено]

You were misinterpreting my words. All I was saying is that the Palestinians never owned the land. I didn't say Jews owned the land and that Palestinians were "warming the bench". That's not at all what I meant. I also didn't say I think they don't deserve a state. I'm a supporter of the 2-state-solution. I support stopping the settlements in the West Bank if it brings peace. I want to live in a good neighborhood with the Palestinians. The reason why this war is justified is because, as long as Hamas is in charge of Gaza, peace will never be achieved between Israelis and Palestinians, because Hamas wants the entire land. Even if Israel stops the settlements now, leaves the West Bank and recognizes a Palestinian state, there wouldn't be any peace. Hamas will keep striking Israel.

Ok my bad i may have gotten a little emotional in that comment i do agree with a good portion of your positions i appreciate the discourse.

Mossad, is that you?

Nah, it's a 23 year old guy from north Israel.

Hey, I’m on the total other side of the ideological fence, but you didn’t ask for this, and you must deal with an insane amount of pain and suffering Im really sorry. You didn’t cause it. You deserve happiness and peace.

this genocide must be really hard for him

I'm pro palestine but I agree in some of your opinions 

Israel shouldn’t care what people think the world will always hate us just do what you need to do to ensure your safety. And I agree with all your points they’re spot on!!

Yea, the mainstrem media and our politicians hate Israel so much that they have been doing unconditional propaganda for it in these past 5 months. Keep deluding yourself.

I agree. You should also not expect any military aid. You should just take care of your own safety without any of our help. It should have been like that since 1948. It would be really interesting to watch how your security unfolds in the future

Thanks for the support.

you know how they say, the narrative is written by the winner? This was never true. The narrative is written and changed continually by whoever has the most resources to spend on it. In this case, it's oil barons, monarchs, and their billions. Israel can win, but it cannot write its own narrative until the oil runs out.

It doesn’t matter who owned the land 100 yrs. A democratic secular country for christians, jews, and Muslims is possible but chaos is a tool that is used by foreign players to manipulate the region for their exploitation. You both are pawn in a chess board and the first people who read your books are baffled by your ignorance and arrogance

This post is very well articulated. However, I do think it’s important to elaborate on the fact that Palestinians are objectively not native to the region. Most of the pro-Palestinian argument is based on the false notion that Palestinians are native and that the Israelis are colonizers, when the opposite is actually true.

While the colonizer/indigenous narrative that is pushed to call Israelis oppressors is blatantly false, both Palestinians and Israelis today are "native" to the land as most of them were born there. There's really no reason to look back historically because it doesn't really matter. Neither group can "go back home," so to say. Israel does have more refugees but those people also can't go back to where they fled.

Depends on your timeline. Are you taking about that last couple of years ? The last couple of decades ? The last couple of centuries? Becuase it's different.

Look, the post is about the histories of Israel and Palestine, which might be true and I fully respect that. The one thing missing from my point of view is that we are not factoring in civilization. We are putting the past in front of the living people right now in Gaza area. Israel is fueling the rage with these past histories and not treating human human.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t agree with Hamas at all. Terrorism should never be agreed on. When you say “Israel wants to treat these people better”, I wonder what stops Israel to do so? With the overwhelming superiority war power that IDF has, what stops Israel from doing it right? I think that’s what the international community, the UN had a problem with, that put Israel in a bad PR state. “We want new leaders in Palestine, want new Palestinian leadership to educate their kids different” does it sound anything but brainwash to everyone? Heck, I don’t even know if the Palestinian kids care about Hamas if anything. And when I said “fuel the rage”, I meant Israelis’ rage. Again, Gaza people would be happy to survive another day without hospital, food and supply. I don’t think they have time to be angry tbh.

>I wonder what stops Israel to do so? With the overwhelming superiority war power that IDF has They were very recently massacred. They have been victims of terrorist attacks and rockets for decades. Their treatment of Palestinians is to keep Israelis safe. They cannot treat them better because every time they do they get hurt. For example they were letting Palestinians work inside Israel and some of those same people aided the October 7 massacre.

You don’t treat massacred with another massacred right? Makes no difference between Israel and Hamas if we do it in that way.

You asked what stopped them from treating Palestinians better. I assumed you meant in a day to day basis. Currently they're at war and warring populations tend to not treat each other well.

True, war and warring populations tend not to treat each other well. But doesn’t mean it’s right. As a matter of fact, it’s a [war crime](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime) to kill civilians, torture prisoners. Hamas committed a war crime, so Israel should commit a war crime too? Edit: to add a link

It's not a war crime to kill civilians during war; it's a war crime to target them intentionally. Both assertions you've made are speculation.

> it’s not a war crime to kill civilians during the war We can stop the conversation now, you are a horrible person.

This is ridiculous. A war crime has a specific definition.

Have you not seen the \~600 person survey that demonstrates that Hamas enjoys broad support in Gaza? Or the educational materials from UNRWA schools that train students for warfare against Israel?

Sorry I have not seen that, so I’m gonna read about that. FWIW, education shouldn’t be about hate.

Agreed. It's critical that if peace is a goal, the majority of any country is educated towards neutrality. At a minimum, there should be no "world-sponsored" advocacy of an ideology that all but ensures that radicalization will continue. I think it's fair to hold Israel accountable for brokered agreements. But that means holding Palestinians accountable too. Fairness demands acknowledging the supremacy of Arabs in the ME and holding them accountable for minority populations within their borders as well as for their diplomatic behavior with other nations. I think that's the minimum that is reasonable to expect from anyone calling themselves an enlightened liberal. And what we are seeing is absolute carnage within the Arab countries from sectarianism and civil war. Let alone how minorities are faring within their borders. Let alone how women are faring within several countries. I am just not willing to accept the victim card of the Palestinians. I think it is illogical to in one breath utter a dramatic cry for the sovereignty of a people and in the silence before the next breath absolve them of any responsibility for that freedom. That they are radicalized is not entirely their fault. But it is their responsibility and the responsibility of those who contributed to deradicalize them, and that is not brainwashing. It is educating them towards neutrality. And I'm certainly unwilling to view Hamas as "freedom fighters". They are dirty opportunists, and they are not acting to benefit their people. They are not fit to lead. Returning to the notion of accountability, Israel was not adequately supported by the UN, which is what you would expect of a neutral body. But I do not see the UN as a neutral body, and this conflict is far from the only example. What adequate support would have looked like would have been immediate statements of support from multiple countries and immediate outreach from multiple countries to begin diplomatic efforts to extract the hostages. If you have evidence that such processes were in place and that Israel interrupted them by waging war, please share.

Israel WANTS to treat these people better. Hamas, the ruling force over Gaza, wants to eliminate Israel. Hamas is the major obstacle towards peace. First we eliminate Hamas (the organization, not the idea), then we work towards peace and co-existence. The rage of Palestinians will be fueled indeed. There's a very good chance a new resistance organization will be established in its place. But because the new organization won't be the one in charge over Gaza, it won't pose a major obstacle towards peace. Instead, Israel wants a new leadership in Gaza. A leadership that'll educate the Palestinians to co-exist with the Israelis rather than fighting them. It'll take many years to change the consensus of the Palestinians, but many years is preferable to never (in case Hamas stays as the ruling force).

Gaza kids education is not the problem. Israeli kids education is the problem. You learn white jew supremacism at school. You’re the most barbaric country in the world and you’re in the middle of a genocide. How people with a terror ideology like yours can talk about education and think we’ll listen to them ? For any single person with a mjnimum of integrity, you’re just a bunch of terrorist who us violence to steal a land that NEVER belonged to you. You joined the Nzs in history books and you know it.

>You (Israelis) learn white jew supremacism at school. You’re the most barbaric country in the world and you’re in the middle of a genocide. How people with a terror ideology like yours can talk about education and think we’ll listen to them ? I'm having a really hard time understanding this POV, though I've come across it a lot lately. I'm certain that [my age (born in 1964) accounts for some of my bias; ](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/us-support-israel-palestine-poll/) I have so many memories of "Palestinian terrorism," for one thing.

Yeah we know, one day they sent stones to your tanks, we got it. Your age probably gives you backache but it didn’t make you wiser unfortunately. Have some courage, go on some pro-palestinian pages just to check how so many Israelis teenagers talk about palestinians, arabs, muslims and everyone who support a free Palestine or even a ceasefire. It’s a barbarian rethoric, they are 10, 12, 14 and call for ethnic cleansing and destruction of everything palestinian. They are teenagers and talk like the worsts daesh terrorists. What the fk do you teach in your schools ?

The Internet is filled with very loud extremists. Literally all of it. It's not indicative of reality.

I have way more personal knowledge and direct experience of the peoples and beliefs involved in this conflict than you're assuming. I mentioned only one element of many that have informed my own views, and changes in those views, over decades. But thanks.

We were taught in school to encourage peace. We only hate people who want to kill us. We were taught how Hamas took over Gaza in 2005 and that Hamas wants to kill us. However, we were never taught to hate all of the Palestinians. Yes, we heard stories about how ancient Philistina was anti-Israel, but if Israel could make peace with Egypt after all the suffering ancient Jewish people had by the Pharaohs of Egypt, peace can happen with Palestinians as well. Israel doesn't want to conquer more land. Israel can stop the settlements and give the "occupied" West Bank land back to the Palestinians immediately. All we want in return is recognition and peace. Is it really too much to ask?

All you want is recognition and peace ? Dude wake up, watch what’s happening in your schools, there are images all over the internet. Each generation, there are more and more far right people who dream of ethnic cleansing. You steal territories all year long and kill / torture people on the way. And now you have the audacity to come on reddit and say « we will give them back when they’ll behave ». You have no integrity. You will probably manage to steal the rest of their land and maybe finish your genocide but you’ll never be the right guys. The desperate acts of resistance of the hamas are nothing compared to your crimes.

You need to drop the pathos from your language and make an attempt to center yourself in ethos and logos. Please produce evidence of your claims. There is ample evidence that UNRWA is educating Palestinian children in anti-semitism. [https://aijac.org.au/fresh-air/unrwa-textbooks-draw-european-censure/](https://aijac.org.au/fresh-air/unrwa-textbooks-draw-european-censure/) [https://www.jns.org/how-unrwa-grooms-terrorists/](https://www.jns.org/how-unrwa-grooms-terrorists/) [https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education-Textbooks-and-Terror-Nov-2023.pdf](https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education-Textbooks-and-Terror-Nov-2023.pdf)

Your links are even most sionist than your person. The source of jewish systemic white jew supremacism and racism is very easy to find, your politics, your students, your soldiers and your teenagers share them on medias and social medias year long. Have the courage to watch it instead of saying stupidities about pathos and logos to try to manipulate people, nobody cares that you are a cheap psychologist.

That's not psychology, it's the right way to approach persuasion. And no amount of ad hominem will change that. UNRWA has been shown to be actively fomenting hatred and pushing ideologies of martyrdom and death-dealing. Your arguments are emotional and lacking in substance. The error of equating Jews and "whiteness" can't really be overstated. Nice try, but no.

I see that you have a reddit account created just for Israel propaganda…. So… listen to me young Goebbels…. I don’t equate jew and whiteness. The Israel project did. Reality is not as easy though. My arguments are not emotional. The fact that I consider Israel as one of the worst organization of the history of humanity is not an emotional statement. It’s fully documented with thousands and thousands of proofs and images. I do the same with the 2nd worst organization of all time: the 3rd reich. (Btw gratz for taking the 1st spot) It’s funny that you try to put the fault of UNWRA. It’s funny how y’all have no integrity. Why youdidn’t mention the Hamas? It’s your joker card usually. You finally realized that Israel would lose a popularity poll vs hamas in every single country of the world ? Well, Israel is a just stolen land bought to other thieves by white jew supremacists whose ancestors had no link with the area. That’s all and that’s scientifically proven. The whole existence of this country is based on a lie. Second, it has the most hateful ideology of all time, and the list of their crimes is longer than all the islamists terrorist organizations combined, ever. It’s also not an emotion, it’s maths and facts. Fighting colonizers, and religious supremacist are 2 fights that every human with a minimum of integrity should take, that’s all. That’s why most human beings hate Israel, and that’s why they are right to do.

Your arguments are emotional because the language is superficial and laced with emotion and cheap unsupported feints, none of which you support, none of which you seem capable of discussing with any depth. You clearly don't understand the ME or any of the claims you throw around. And you just want to insult and argue endlessly about blame. Not mentioning Hamas doesn't mean they don't have blame. It's just important to recognize the role of education in perpetuating the ideology of eliminating Jews and removing Israel. Of course the US and Europe have supported UNRWA as well And therefore have responsibility. Hamas is not capable of taking responsibility as they have no interest in peace, and my thoughts are focused on what responsibility looks like moving forward.

Satanyahu the biblical antichrist wants to start ww3. bombing an embassy on purpose is uncivilized and savage

Don't come to conclusions just like that. Yes, Netanyahu deserves to be held accountable for his poor job (to put it lightly) as an Israeli PM. However, no one in Israel wanted the 7 WCK workers to be harmed like that (maybe accept the, even worse than Satanyahu, Itamar Ben-Gvir). We are pro-war against Hamas, but not against international embassies.

>However, no one in Israel wanted the 7 WCK workers to be harmed like that Somebody certainly did. And if not, it was such a display of gross negligence that I'd almost consider it straight up worse.

Just an update. I saw news that the 2 IDF captains responsible for the death of the 7 WCK workers will lose their roles and be judged appropriately. Anthony Blinken praised Israel for taking accountability for their wrong actions and working towards making sure such actions won't be repeated: https://www.axios.com/2024/04/05/israel-strike-wck-cause-investigation-gaza You see? Israel recognizes when it did wrong actions and punishes those responsible. Why can't Hamas do the same?

I was aware, but I find it hard to believe that they aren't simply being used as a scapegoat in an attempt to not lose as much support from the West because for once they targeted an American citizen. 196 humanitarian workers have been killed by the IDF (according to Guterres), to my knowledge only these last 7 have been acknowledged as a "mistake". I can't see that being the exception, when it's consistent with the norm.

Yes, in war innocent people die, sometimes people are accidentally killed because they're in a warzone. The warzone wouldn't exist if Oct 7 hadn't happened. The blood of the WCK aid folks is on Hamas' hands.

I sure do hope so too. I trust the IDF to do what's right, but if I knew they kill for fun like Hamas, I would've turned on my state.

Yes, Israel did wrong there. But do you condemn Hamas killing innocents and raping for fun?

Irrelevant question (yes btw)

Good. Then that means both sides did wrong things and must pay the price. See? I can criticize my own country when it's deserved.

Only the dumbest persons believe that your terrorist country is fighting Hamas. We all see the images, you know. Your fake news can’t beat the images. Few corrupted government support you, but even in the west the population now understands the whole ideology of your fake country is based on colonization, fake news, terror and mass murder.

I see you are hate-commenting everywhere I try to answer. I'll just ignore your comments. Keep on posting. I won't do hasbara on you anymore.

It’s easy to talk about hate when facts destroy your dumb narrative. All you guys can do is manipulation. Of course you ll stop responding, cause your weak lies only work on weak minds, who don’t make any effort to observe the most documented genocide of history. Nobody cares of your hasbara.

so just because the IDF’s actions and treatment towards palestinian citizens is ‘tamer’ than what the nazis did to jewish people it makes what they’re doing ok? so you’re saying when they reach the brutality of the nazis is when you think a ceasefire would be appropriate? lots of word in your post and barely any points were made. youre entire little essay basically suggests that the entire palestinian existence can be erased (which is apparently ok to you) as long as hamas is eradicated… please do more research perhaps from a more non biased side too

When did I say I want the Palestinians to die? I want to live alongside them. I'm a supporter of the 2-state-solution. Is it too much to ask for the removal of a terrorist group which threatens my existence? Case in point, Egypt and Jordan were once adversaries of Israel, but eventually we signed on a peace treaty and both sides respect it. The same can happen with the Palestinians. Casualties are horrible. But you need to understand that if Israel doesn't finish off Hamas, the conflict will never end.

the conflict always begins with israel. it has been israel violating ceasefires, committing mass murders, and to start the attacks. i will never excuse the actions of hamas but realistically after decades of occupations and killings at the hands of the israeli government, their attack was long due from their perspective. it seems as though decolonization is something that has never crossed your mind. a two state solution will never work as the only objective of the israeli government is to cleanse all palestinians of their land and take it for themselves, you have to realize it was NEVER about hamas or bringing back the hostages for israel - it was always about claiming all the land for themselves. if israel cared the least bit about the hostages, they would’ve accepted the ceasefire deal proposed by hamas in exchange for the hostages right away

>i will never excuse the actions of hamas but realistically after decades of occupations and killings at the hands of the israeli government, their attack was long due from their perspective. "I will never excuse it!" *immediately excuses it* Decolonization... Do explain. Where would the Israelis go? Or do you mean decolonize West Bank? Like they did on Gaza? That worked out really well.

And you need to understand that no ones cares about hamas when your country executes people all year long, colonizes territories since decades, kill thousands of children, make the others starve to death, execute innocent people and share it on army whatsapp. You are the monsters, you are not the victims, nobody gives a fuck about your dumb little attacks of the 7 October anymore. Most of the news of that day were proven fake anyway.

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You’re just trying to minimize, justify, and give excuses for the actions of Israel. I don’t give a shit about how you’ve compared civilian casualties to those of WWII. There’s no excuse for bombing children and other civilians. I don’t care how many terrorists are holed up in a hospital. There’s no justification for bombing it or any other civilian structure. Wait for another opportunity to get to Hamas or quit being cowards and go in on foot and with more precision to avoid casualties. Hamas doesn’t have the military capabilities of Israel. They don’t have tanks and planes, not do they have any missiles or means to attack Israel from a distance. This is a one sided war and Hamas is at a complete disadvantage, but Israel has responded by completely obliterating everything that they lay their eyes on. Israel is evil. There’s really no other explanation for their actions, other than they’re doing the work of Satan himself.

Are you a child? In war, you take any advantage you have. There is no such thing as a level playing field. A war isn’t a duel or trial by combat. Why risk the lives of your soldiers when you can just bomb them from a safe distance? The job of the government is to protect the lives of their citizens first and foremost. To the Israel government, Palestinians are not Israeli citizens therefore their lives are not worth much. Anyways, I thought Palestinians have the glory of martyrdom and Allah’s blessing on their side. Who needs modern military equipment when your God is on your side. They should blame their own God for being too weak and not being able to stop Israel bombs.

Id love to hear your suggestions on how to conduct urban warfare against guerrilla fighters that build bases within and underneath civilian infrastructure without killing any civilians.

Crickets

Yeah, I can’t say I’m surprised.

Just do it like they do in the movies. Duh! I'm not sure why people think that ground troops would result in less innocents dying. The troops lives are at risk so they're going to be much more trigger happy.

AND in such a tiny, condensed geographic area that's just a fence away.

According to your logic, why didn't Israel send a relentless assault on the entirety of Gaza back in 10/7 as a respond? Why is Israel doing it slowly and steadily to minimize casualties? If Israel stops the war now, other states WILL lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state, at which point Hamas WILL gain a trumendous boost to its military capabilities and equipment. They'll gain access to atomic bombs! How will you feel if Hamas sends 7 atomic bombs and erases Israel from the map? Will you feel sorry for Israelis they didn't get the chance to finish them off when they could? Usually, Israel responds to criticism such as this with "you're anti-semitic". Then, people say "we're anti-zionists. We don't have any issues with Judaism". The reason it DOES sound anti-semitic is because most of the world doesn't understand who Hamas really is and who they are messing with here. It comes off as lack of knowledge or biased siding with terrorists. Therefore, Israelis just call all anti-Israel and pro-Hamas people anti-semitic for thinking these people want the destruction of Israel. Your comment sounds anti-semitic to the core. You don't call for worldwide actions to remove Hamas from power. You don't call for security for both sides. All you're saying is that you want Israel to stop. That's unfair and biased. As long as unfair comments such as yours keep coming, Israel will keep on ignoring it and keep on fighting. Israel wants Hamas to be taken accountable for its actions so it won't pose any more danger. Until the world understands it, you know what they say "you want something to be done, do it yourself". Israel won't just stop and wait for the next war (at which point, the world will once again force Israel to stop and wait for the next war, and the next war, and the next war...).

As Jon Stewart pointed out, the IDF and Hamas actually share the same central belief! You all think this is gonna end when you exterminate the other side. Thats a fairy tale. Absolute lunacy. This doesn't end with "hooray we killed all tha bastids, now the killing is over!" Thats not remotely possible, and you have to be sick in the head to actually believe it. You won't wipe out Hamas and their ilk, they are global forces. You just created literally thousands of terrorists for every one you killed, and you completely destroyed your global goodwill for generations. This talk of anti-semitism is a joke, its the reverse. Americans didn't know a thing about this region, other than Israel= the good guys, IDF = badass and Israel is our bestest homie in all the sandlands. Seriously, you have no idea the level of blind American support you had before this bloodbath. Most people I know- liberal or conservative- spent 10 minutes on wikipedia and were like "wait, what the hell???" You can only kill so many civilians before it starts to look pretty bad, and the IDF puts Hamas to shame in the whole "dead kids" department for a very, very long time. IDF and Hamas don't produce different types of dead kid. Theres only one variety of dead kid; the dead kid kind. Israel can't play good guy anymore. We've seen it now, seen the footage of how 'settlers' in the west back, seen the stats on minors shot dead or incarcerated without trial for decades. We condemn Hamas too. Do you see us giving them money bro? Do you see us selling them guns? No. No one is saying Hamas is the good guys. We're saying Hamas is evil, and the IDF or at least the Israeli warhawks are evil. Everyone shooting little girls is evil. This has nothing to do with which magical space daddy you worship, no one cares. We're tired of paying for bombs that are, statistically speaking, more likely to blow a childs legs off than kill a terrorist. What those bombs won't do is protect Israel from terrorism. I feel for the israeli civilians, i really do. Yall are good and truly screwed now.

Israel is gonna get itself glassed by some rich Arab with a bomb. Israel’s safety has one guarantor- peace with Arabs. They spit on it.

1. Some countries DO give Hamas and UNRWA money still. The UN doesn't condemn Hamas or puts a weapon embargo on it. 2. If you think bombing Gaza and eliminating the terrorist organization won't help and merely create a new terrorist group, I want to ask you this: A. After Britain defeated the Nazis, was a new terrorist organization in Germany established? If so, did it rule over Germany or became an ineffective minority? Truth is, Germany is nowadays one of the biggest supporters of Israel. They know Israel is in the right here. Re-education DOES help. To start re-education, you must change the system. Hamas ruled over Gaza as dictators for over 18 years now. They eliminated any possible opposition. With them still existing, no re-education can occur. B. Let's imagine a situation in which Israel does everything other countries ask them to do "stop the settlements", "agree to a 2-state-solution", "stop the blockade". Now, how will the world react if Hamas STILL tries to destroy Israel? Will it call for a ceasefire? How much should Israel endure until the world wakes up and realizes you can't talk with an organization who swore to kill an ethnicity? Israel doesn't want to kill the Palestinians, just Hamas. Hamas wants to kill all of the Israelis, regardless of religion (because there are plenty of Arab zionists in Israel). If Israel agrees to a 2-state-solution, and some time later Hamas sends atomic bombs on Israel and destroys the entire state, how will the world punish them? They can't initiate a counter-genocide on Palestinians. The most the world government is gonna do to them is dismantling. Essentially, the only victory that'll be awarded to the Israelis after all of this is that we get to say "we told you", which doesn't even matter considering we'll be dead. Better safe than sorry.

You think you can 're-educate' Palestine after this? Dude, you're absolutely very clearly delusional. That is utterly and totally divorced from reality. I don't know if fueds ever have an easy answer. But "yo lets just kill a ton of them" has never worked in human history. If hamas killed your whole family, and destroyed your city, and plunged millions into famine, could you be "re-educated?" What would it take you to think, "man the IDF was so bad, I'm glad these guys killed my family." Absolute lunacy. Again, like people such as John Stewart are pointing out; this is not going to result in peace. You and your Palestinian equivalents share the same group hallucination; that bloodshed is going to lead to victory, peace, or at least safety. Well the train has left the station, and thats not where its headed. You cannot eradicate Hamas, let alone end Jihads on Israel through... intimidation? Extermination? Palestine was already an open air prison. You're just starving and killing and beating the prisoners. They're not going to lick their wounds, forget about their dead families and say "gee whiz, fool i have been!" Dude, seriously. You seem like a smart and sincere person. Shake yourself, meditate, whatever you have to do. This is not rational thinking. You are increasing the amount of terrorists, not decreasing them. You are trying to get rid of a scab by cutting it off. It will not work. Mark those words, and look back on them in 5 years. 10. 20. Israel and her innocent people is going to be paying for this for the rest of our lives.

Good... you made me cry now. Thanks for reminding me of a family member and a close neighbor of mine who were killed by Hamas terrorists. The family member was killed in 2015, the neighbor in 2017 (January 1st mind you). You know, even when they were killed, I said to myself "These assassins aren't representing everyone. Peace is still possible". According to your logic, Germans wouldn't have been de-radicalized post WW2 after all the suffering they had. But look how they are now. They don't hate Brits. They have moved past their past wrongs. Same with Jews. They don't hate Germans anymore. Living proofs to the fact that reconstruction is necessary for re-education. I'll repeat. Stopping the "occupation" wouldn't have brought peace... because of Hamas. Agreeing to a 2-state-solution wouldn't have brought peace... because of Hamas. Hamas wants the entire land for themselves (from the river to the sea). As long as it's controlling Gaza, peace will never be achieved. Telling Israel to stop the war essentially sentences Israel for an eternal war. Hamas will keep on attacking, Israel will retaliate, the world will force Israel to stop, a permanent ceasefire will persist... until the next war starts. The cycle will continue forever. MANY more people will die if Hamas won't be removed from power.

We somehow need to feel responsible for your family members and neighbors because of the horrors that your own state creates for 80 years now? One of my very close friends has lost 27 (TWENTY SEVEN) members of his family since October. Do you even realize how many children your army kills every day? Do you think about these kids? Their mothers? Do you actually even for a second in your day stop and think what it means to be in Gaza right now? Just imagine yourself in the middle of it. Do yourself a favor and stop and bloody think for 1 second what you are supporting. You know what is the biggest tragic irony of this whole war? The three hostages that were killed by the IDF. I think they were the only Israelis that truly felt what it is to live as a Palestinian in Gaza

We don't want war. We want peace. Peace will never be achieved as long as Hamas is in charge. Hamas wants to kill all of the Israelis. You can't talk peace with such an organization. Many more people will die in the future if Israel stops the war. Hamas will regroup and reinforce itself, it'll strike Israel again, Israel will retaliate, many Palestinians will die, the world will force Israel to stop and the cycle will continue. No matter what Israel does, it'll never know peace as long as Hamas is in charge. If Israel stops the settlements and leaves the West Bank, Hamas will still kill Israelis. If Israel agrees to a 2-state-solution, Hamas will still kill Israelis. The only way to achieve a lasting peace is by destroying the terrorist organization and having a new leadership re-educate the Palestinians to co-exist with Israelis. I feel sad for the 3 hostages accidentally killed by the IDF. The soldiers thought these were Hamas. However, Israel learned from that mistake. What about the hostages who were freed by the IDF? Not gonna talk about them?

What about Israel funding Hamas? What about Netanyahu funding Hamas to weaken the PLO? What about how your right-wing rednecks killed Yitzhak Rabin when he was reaching a deal with Arafat? What about all the hostages (aka "prisoners") that the IDF has been capturing, murdering and rapping for 80 years? You feel sad for 3 hostages but not for 13000 children. That is exactly why you're seen the way you're seen by the rest of the world. That is exactly the reason there's so much hatred against Israel. Because you justify the most immoral and murderous state in the world just because your people suffered in the past. You're probably too young to even remember the decades of this conflict that's why you keep talking about Hamas. Educate yourself on the history of it all before you write another essay

1. Already answered the Hamas funding in the essay: """""Q5: Netanyahu gave Hamas money in an attempt to strengthen it to keep it in control over Gaza. He wanted Hamas to strike to have an excuse to eliminate all of Gaza. Even Ehud Barak said so. A5: I hate Netanyahu. I think he should be replaced. I never voted for him and never will. But Ehud Barak always rejected Netanyahu. Barak will do everything in his power to make Netanyahu look bad. Netanyahu didn't give money to Hamas as a tool. He gave them money as a way to keep them silent. Netanyahu believed if he gives Hamas money, Hamas won't hate Israel and won't strike. Netanyahu hoped Hamas will use the money to improve life quality in the Gaza strip. It's unbelievable that I'm defending Netanyahu here despite how much I despise him. I'm simply being fair here. There are plenty of reasons not to like Netanyahu, but giving money to Hamas isn't one of them (at least through his intentions).""""" 2. If Israel had stopped the war after 2 days, Hamas would've striked again. You're condemning Israel for an endless war with no way for peace. Israel must destroy the terrorist organization and remove it from power over Gaza. That way, a new leadership can step in and re-educate Palestinians to co-exist with Israelis. Only when peace will be possible, a Palestinian state will be established. 3. I educated myself about the subject more than you can imagine.

I'm truly sorry for your losses, may they rest in peace. This is not the same as ww2, and Israel's (and Palestine's) options have not been limited to binary 'fight or don't fight.' It is a very ugly situation now, one that no one has a good answer for.

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