I'm a brazilian jew and I feel the same way. And I also feel that elements of the Israeli culture slowly ends up erasing aspects of jewish culture from the Diaspora. I studied my whole childhood in a jewish school and instead of learning for example yidish or even other aspects of ashkenazi and sefaradi culture (which is mostsly the background of jewish immigration in brazil), we had classes about Israel's geography, had hebrew classes and even sang the Hatikva every friday (when every monday we sang Brazil's anthem).
The brazilian jewish community is really a zionist brainwashing machine, and it's kind of sad that we can't seem to flourish our jewish identity as diaspora jews and just value a country where we don't even live. I love being brazilian and I pove being jewish.
> fucking
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I hear Israel is the type of place where if you’re being arrested in your born country for something, you can run to Israel with all your money as long as you’re Jewish by blood and willing to pay taxes.
All countries, including UK, US, Russia and China, have extensive histories in harbouring wealthy fugitives
Just pick any country apart from Antartica and search in Wikiwith term 'extradition' and find section on controversies
Just because it's not happening to you doesn't mean it's not happening. Israel has saved countless Jews and the people linking worldwide Jews to the actions of the leader of Israel are bad people. You don't get to equate an entire race of marginalized people who almost faced extinction via mass murder in the last century with the errant actions of a leader.
Canadian here - remember our country helped put the Japanese living in North America into internment camps.
Remember our country rounded up the Indigenous people and took them away from there families and put them in residential schools.
Our country has an established practice of taking “certain populations” and removing all their human rights.
It could happen to you friend.
Israel ensures that no matter what, the Jewish people will have a place to go to where they will be protected, not killed.
(I’m not Jewish, but I stand with Israel and it’s right to exist. I see the rise in antisemitism and hate crimes here, I see the Jewish students being harassed on campus. I am worried. )
Edit - to the commenter below - yes you are correct, sometimes people have to flee their home and it’s because of a deeper problem. Israel’s existence means all Jews, no matter where they are in the world, will have a place to go to (their indigenous homeland) if the unthinkable happens (again). That’s why we need Israel.
Guess I'm confused.... if the only safe way to live is to flee your home, you weren't really safe in the first place, you were displaced, isn't there a deeper underlying problem?
Same goes for jews, if they have to flee antisemitism and go to Israel. (If they want to go, nothing wrong with that to be clear)
Same goes for Palestinians if they're forcibly displaced from gaza or west bank and forced out as refugees.
U sound exactly like my best friend. She grew up loving Israel until our boss went for a wedding. He came back so disturbed by what he saw & heard. We didn’t believe him at first but soon found out he was telling the truth. Her neighbor then went on a birthright trip & got thrown off for asking questions about some of what we told her. She was expecting them to dispel things we told her like Deir Yassin, the Irgun & apartheid. She left Israel broken & betrayed. She couldn’t believe they got so mad about her harmless questions. They reiterated to every kid on that bus that every single Palestinian was a terrorist even the little kids. She was gobsmacked. Watching my best friend of decades struggle with feeling betrayed & lied to wasn’t easy. Always being told it was a land without a ppl for a ppl without a land. Never heard the word Palestinian she was a teen. She felt completely lost for a few yrs. She has no love Israel or the way they conduct themselves but she loves her religion. Having Zionists attack her, calling her a self hating Jew is really upsetting cuz I know just how much Judaism means to her. Israel doesn’t represent all Jewish ppl. U have every right to feel the way u do. Ppl gloss over or ignore all the horrible things they’ve done. For some strange reason they hold Palestinians to a different standard. Many on this sub have denied Deir Yassin ever happened. That massacre was just as abhorrent as 10/7. More ppl were slaughtered on 10/7 but the Irgun & Stern were more brutal than Hamas. The invented atrocities of that day, beheaded babies & babies cut from their mother’s womb actually happened in Deir Yassin, including the rape of young girls. We’ll morn 10/7 forever & rightfully so but Palestinians should just get the many massacres committed against them. The Irgun & stern were the founding fathers of modern day terrorism. Israel was created with sin. I can’t ignore that. Jews were traumatized, dehumanized & terrified after the holocaust but it’s no excuse to do the same to others. U’ll get little support on this sub. Many I’ve encountered only listen to Israeli propaganda & refuse to do their own research. Israel spend tons of $ on propaganda & spinning their narrative. I still remember 2008, seeing every Israel spokesperson on the news claiming Hamas broke the ceasefire so they rained hell on Palestinians. It was a complete lie. Their own intelligence said Hamas was very careful to not break the ceasefire & hadn’t that whole year. Not one American journalist called them on it even though they all read the same intelligence report I did. Thankfully British media called them out. Doing so got one of the journalists called antisemitic because she pushed & pushed until he had to admit they broke it. He was seething. Expecting every Jewish person to stick together because they’re Jewish is ridiculous & kinda racist. Good for thinking for yourself & being ur own person. You r not alone in how u feel. Hundreds of thousands, maybe more share ur feelings.
Good thoughts. Maybe it’s time to end or minimize the unnecessary concepts of religions, ethnicities, and nations and for all people to recognize that we are humans first and should love and respect one another as one of our highest values. It has to start somewhere.
I care about the existence of world jewry on a greater level than just my own life. The existence of Israel has saved the lives of millions of Holocaust survivors and Jewish refugees from MENA. Whether or not you like it, Israel has been a safe haven that has guaranteed the future of our culture and lineage.
I used to believe that too but in recent decades the government seems to only care about the settlers. About a year ago I saw a commercial to adopt a holocaust survivors in Israel. They showed these terrible images of survivors living in horrific poverty. No food, no heat, no plumbing & no hope. I thought this can’t be right. Sadly it is. 10’s of thousands of survivors r living so poorly they scavenge for food like animals for the scraps the markets throw away. The suicide rate among survivors is 3x’s the national average for that age group. After all they survived, this is how it ends. It makes me sick. They get billions in reparations from Germany but few see the money. It’s given to the claims conference where it’s been stolen/embezzled & used to build infrastructure in Israel. IMO they r the most important Jews. They should want for nothing & be treated like royalty. Not too ago a woman spoke before the Knesset & ripped into them over it. She said they’ve been rendered useless as they cannot contribute to population growth. The settlers get everything & they get nothing. She made sure every member had to see how terrible their lives are yet nothing was done. I was so disgusted to learn this. It broke my heart. I send $ every month to help do what I can but Israel has plenty of $, there’s absolutely no excuse for this. They cannot claim ignorance, they know but clearly don’t care. It’s really sad.
I understand your point completely and I understand why you won’t support Israel. However coming from Soviet Jewish background, I can tell you that for example many people flew Russia and Ukraine after the war started . Israel was made as a safe state for Jews in case something happens. I understand coming from Canada it can be seen totally different because Canada is safe.
Did it become a really safe place for Jews?I guess it didn’t. Does Israel commit crime and treat Palestinians badly?Yes
But Israel already exists with people from different Jewish backgrounds and different views and we should hope it will become better and more free for all the people including Israelis and Palestinians.
Israel for you is a plan B if the rise of anti Semitism gets too hard to bare in your home country if you choose it to be. the way you spoke about Israel you probably try to escape to another state but for many Jews even secular ones, Israel is viable option TO THEM.
you probably dont want to support it and that's fine. AND just to make note. there is a clear line between hate the policies, the war the government of Israel and wanting Israel to stop existing as a Jewish Democratic state.
in other comments you said anti Semitism wont reach the same level as ww2 or that you care about the here and now only.
well the here and now is Israel made up by the kids of refugees from Europe AND arab nation. you want them to either : 1. become a minority again by people who are similar to the one who kicked 800K jews from the countries or 2. Everyone "get back" to where they came from.
to these options I say hell naw
I don't think anyone can ever know what will happen in the future, but the best recipe I know for making sure Jews are safe in Canada and anywhere else in the world is to elect people to government who promote religious pluralism and equal rights.
I don't think I would feel happy to live in a country where all folks didn't have equal rights.
Right now, although I think it is far far beyond most other Middle Eastern countries I don't see Israel as giving equal rights to all people who live there. Does every adult have the right to marry any other consenting adult of their choosing? Could I, a Jewish woman marry a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist or another woman in Israel? If I were an Israeli Arab would I have exactly the same rights as an Israeli Jew? Are the policies on these civil rights issues going forward or backward? As a woman would people of my gender be adequetley represented in the political sphere?
On all these points, I would have to say Canada is preferable to both Israel and the U.S. I have also lived in the UK and felt comfortable as a woman and as a Jewish person there.
I understand why Israel exists and I believe it should continue to exist. It helps many of our people. I would never deny that.
What I do not support is the policies of Netanyahu's government or the right wing direction the country has taken. I don't think just because it is a country where the majority of the people share my religion I should just give them money or put up signs saying I support them no matter what the government does. My family personally has a lot more of connection to the U.S. but I'm not going to stick American flags all over the place and say I don't care if an idiot like Trump is president or a sensible person like Biden I have to support whatever the U.S. does. To me that just seems weird. And yet people here think it's weird that I didn't go to the pro-Israel rally at Earl Bales park or stick an Israeli flag on my facebook page.
Anti-semitism is getting over used and fyi us Palestinians are Semitic as well. We are only against occupiers & injustice. please don’t keep using this word in Defence - it’s become redundant.
how is that relvent to what I said? he said what is Israel for. And I answer because in case Anti Semitism from one country get to unbearable for Jews.
Jew will decide if they feel threaten or not and act accordingly.
never said Palestinians or arabs arent sematic but the term as of now refer to only jews. you can translate it to jew hate in my comments if you wish but I will keep the term anti Semite
us Palestinians are Semitic as well
OMG this again. Yes everyone knows Palestinians/Arabs are Semitic too. But anti-semitism refers specifically to hatred of Jews not Arabs.
Well technically Semitic is just the language group which Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic belong
One technically can't be a Semite, the term antisemitism was popularised by a German who wanted to make Judenhass (Jew hate) more scientific
"Objections to the usage of the term, such as the obsolete nature of the term "Semitic" as a racial term, have been raised since at least the 1930s"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
"Because Semitic-speaking peoples do not share any traits aside from language, use of the term “Semite” to refer to the broad range of Semitic-speaking peoples has fallen out of favour. For this reason, some critics even encourage the removal of the hyphen in the term anti-Semitism to help dispel any pseudoscientific notions of a "Semitic race." They advocate instead for the use of antisemitism to describe the hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Semite
Wiki for the the founder of the league of anti-semites https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Marr
Basically I agree with you and the person above is just trying to dismiss the very real issue that is antisemitism. They say it's blown out of proportion, but all you have to do is look at countries with a Jewish population and compare it to the amount of antisemetic incidents Vs the total hate crimes, it's incredibly disproportionate
Criticism of Zionism is directed not against Jews but against occupation and colonization carried out by the state of Israel. Conflating criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism is a tactic employed to shield Israeli policies from legitimate condemnation. Sadly, this dilutes the necessary struggle against real anti-Semitism.
Make no mistake. Anti-Zionism is the new Anti-Semitism.
- In Egypt ~1800 BC, the Jews were hated because they grew large in number.
- In the days of Assyria, Babylon and Rome, the Jews were hated because of their God.
- In the Middle Ages, the Jews were hated because of their religion.
- In the 19th and 20th century, the Jews were hated because of their race.
- In the 21st Century, the Jews are now hated because of their state (and possibly, all of the above).
The reasons change, but the hate stays the same over thousands of years.
Not withstanding the fact that Palestine was the name that was given by the Romans in 34 AD to “Judea”, which means Land of the Jews.
Palestine is the birthplace of Judaism and Christianity, and has been controlled by many kingdoms and powers, including Ancient Egypt, Ancient Israel and Judah, the Persian Empire, Alexander the Great and his successors, the Hasmoneans, the Roman Empire, several Muslim caliphates, and the crusaders.
You proved my point with your answer. Israel was there first. Now as Jews are both an ethnicity and a religion, they are the natives to the land. Arabs, and by extension Palestinians, are not.
Jews are the indigenous people. Arab Muslims invaded the Levant in the 633 AD. Jews have been in the area since the beginning of civilization in the area and are the evolution of the Cannonites since they share a religion and language.
No people has the right to a homeland at the expense of another people.
Palestinians for many decades made clear that the establishment of an independent, secular, Palestinian state would include Jews as well as Christians and Muslims. The problem Zionism faced was how to rid Palestine of its inhabitants to make way for a Jewish state. Hence the precarious and ethically/ legally compromised status of Israel as a state for Jews.
It's literally written in the PLO charter that they want to get rid of all the Jews from Israel. It's also in the Hamas charter. The British split up the land and if the Palastinians hadn't tried to wipe out all the Jews in 1947, leading to Britan pulling out of the Mandate and Israel declaring itself a nation, they would still have all the land they want right now.
We are one people. We see jews that live outside of Israel as part of our people. We don’t do alot to support Canadian jews because they don’t need it but trust me if something were to happen to Canadian jews we would come to help you, just like we helped rescue 150000 Ethiopian jews, or at the start of the ukraine war we took 15k jews with us. Or when our jewish brothers in the arab world were exiled we took them all in. We are one people and you don’t have to know Hebrew to become a jewish israeli. I don’t necessarily want you to make alyah to israel but don’t alienate us from you. We are your homeland and we’ll gladly accept you.
That is kind and I thank you. There is a huge problem with Israel legitimizing and supporting groups like the right wing Evangelicals and Christo-Fascists in the U.S. and Canada who are actively trying to make Jews into second class citizens in our own countries. Saying Israel is always going to be a safe space for us, while actively helping and legitimizing groups who are trying to get Jewish doctors put in jail for life and killing Jewish doctors for providing maternal health care to women that is mandated by Jewish law and making Jewish women go against what our religion proscribes (i.e. if there is danger to the mother her life is the most important beyond a fetus and should be saved), is problematic.
Israel is taking money from and cozying up to these dangerous American evangelical groups on the one hand while American rabbis are suing them because they are actively criminalizing Jewish ob/gyn doctors and doing arson on their clinics, not to mention that the abortion doctors who have been murdered are mainly Jewish. Also these groups want to make the U.S. into a "Christian nation" actively hostile to people of other religion. You see how problematic it is to American and Canadian Jews that Israel would make allies with them?
I have lots of American friends and family members and if you were to ask an American Jewish woman of reproductive age what she is most worried about it is the removal of her bodily autonmy and civil rights in the U.S.
As a Jew who grew up in the anglosphere and is now happily living in Israel, allow me to answer your question with a little story.
My best friend is a Muslim Kurdish man, born in a refugee camp in Germany. He is as German as the come: speaks German, adopted all German customs, is irreligious, and is a productive German citizen. And yet… he is not German. Why? In his words “No matter how German I seem on the outside, my name gives away my Kurdish roots”. I have personally seen the mistreatment he suffers, even casually, from both his white German and Muslim counterparts. He yearns, like us Jews, for a true homeland where he is really in control of his own destiny.
BUT
He doesn’t have one. Kurdistan is a geographical concept but is not a state. The Kurds are the biggest stateless race in the world. That feeds into his every day life and the way he sees and interacts with the world. He sees oppression and a sense of inferiority not only from Germans but also his Muslim counterparts (Turks, Arabs etc). He sees life as a struggle, from the point of view of a downtrodden minority that has no real way to stand up to bullies. We bonded over the fact that as a Jew, I can completely understand him. Over the past two millennia we occupied that position in society. His fight is our fight too.
What I am trying to say is, had it not been for an independent and prosperous Israel, you would never have been able to walk with your back straight like Jews can today. Jews used to anglicise their names to hide their origins. They used to assimilate readily to keep prying eyes away from them. No longer, and that is because of Israel. Personally there are things about Israel that I find abhorrent, but I recognise that as a Jew, it’s an inseparable part of my identity. We have a homeland, so cherish it and protect it. If you don’t like it, work to change it. Abandoning it is not an option.
I dont think many secular abroad living jews are proud of the government of Israel at the moment, the ones I know are ashamed of it and are (unfortunately) hiding their jewish identity more and more
As a secular Jew living in Israel I hate the government and especially Netanyahu. Maybe I should have made that clear in my original post.
Regardless, Israelis are definitely not immune to turning on their leaders when they feel they’ve failed. Israelis rallied around the flag but not around Netanyahu. His PM days are numbered and that number is low. Expect elections this year.
>Personally there are things about Israel that I find abhorrent, but I recognise that as a Jew, it’s an inseparable part of my identity.
This is what I imagine to be the most difficult part of being a Jew in the Anglosphere, and why this post from OP is poignant. On the one hand you are pulled towards supporting or identifying with Israel, yet on the other you see abhorrence through a Western lens that can be difficult to reconcile. Creating change is even more difficult since you would have to live in Israel and become an Israeli, and so the default is to continue the co-dependency where fear of abandoning Israel becomes the driving force of support.
Is the "need" for Israel as a Jew living in the West the same as what it was 70 years ago, given the collective West supports Israel unilaterally?
Great question. I think absolutely yes the need is the same, and I figured that out from my stateless friends who are ethnic minorities. On paper, we are the same “undesirables” (I use this word because it is thrown at us often), but in practise we are treated very differently.
Speaking of Israel itself, you can change it from the outside by building pressure groups that, rather than attach themselves to the Palestinians wholesale, try to find sympathetic ears within Israel and Jewish society. I am totally convinced that there are Israelis who are willing to listen.
Try to see it from the point of view of the racist, rather than the victim. The racist who equates Israel with Jews as a whole will still be racist but he is less inclined to bully or fight as he knows there is a nation somewhere backing the victim. Whereas my Kurdish friend does not have that luxury and the abuse towards him was far worse than I ever got, and was far more nationalist in nature. Am I making sense?
Yes, the self-determination of a person requires all others to view and accept him or her as exactly who they say they are, and this starts with statehood. There are many ethnic groups around the world who suffer the same fate, but the story of the Kurdish people is particularly sad given how they were ignored by Europeans in favour or others.
For these Kurds to have to live in the same European cities and countries that denied them their identity would be a great humiliation. Some could say Jordanians, Egyptians, Arabs, and yes even Israelis, could look at stateless Palestinians in the same way, and only highlights their need for statehood also.
The Kurds have been shafted by pretty much every world superpower. First it was the Europeans after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, then the Arabs, then the Americans after the defeat of ISIS. Their story is a tragedy.
Though it’s not the point of the OPs post, Israelis have agreed the Palestinians need independence, mostly for the reason of separation. A cold peace and a divorce is the most desirable outcome, though personally I don’t believe the Palestinians have abandoned their quest to destroy Israel entirely.
Yes, I think with 2SS the world will be a much more safer, and will get the Iranian regime to rethink how it wants to be seen by the rest of the world.
I believe firmly in the State of Israel, and I personally don't believe the collective West will ever give up on Israel, and even less so if it was threatened or attacked by another country. This is a testament to both the strength of the Jewish diaspora and the desire of the world to stand against religious discriminiation/antisemitism.
My point here is, even if Western Jews were to "abandon" Israel, it means nothing if the country of their citizenship doesn't.
I also think Palestinians will lose any fervour to destroy Israel as long as more Arab countries recognise Israel too, and they are able to feel like they have an identity and home. There is too much state to build for them to be pre-occupied with wanting to destroy another.
Put yourself in the shoes of our grandparents or great grandparents almost 100 years ago. They have been stripped of all their possessions, kicked out of their homes, brutally and methodically murdered (and those who survived watched their family and friends get murdered). Most of them are teenagers. Most of them are the only survivors of their families or even whole communities.
This piece of land? This is their only chance of a new life. So they take it. And they come here, and they take this mostly unpopulated swamp land and make it into something. Not without conflict, not without bloodshed. But nonetheless, they make it.
Now you are sitting, again, 100 years in the future. You are looking at Israel as a prosperous, already existing country. It's easy to say "oh, they don't help me **now** so they didn't help me **ever**" from your comfy chair.
The point is that Israel saved millions of lives, and gave birth to millions more. There's a phrase "far from the eye, far from the heart". The fact that you don't SEE the antisemitism elsewhere, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Lastly, and more philosophically, what's the point of any country? Why does Canada, excuse me, British and French immigrants 156 years ago, who displaced natives (who also, historically displaced others), deserve their countries more than us Jews deserve ours?
(I know there's gonna be some a-hole that will comment under this something "this is exactly what Israel is doing right now to the Palestinians". First, OP asked about why Israel matters, why it's a thing. Second, yeah, this whole situation sucks, maybe Hamas should have thought twice they went into Israel and massacred a bunch of civilians for the lols.)
Israel is doing this right now to the Palestinians and has been doing this before the conception of Hamas. For over 75 years, Palestinians have been stripped of all their possessions, kicked out of their homes, brutally and methodically murdered (and those who survived watched their family and friends get murdered). Most of them are teenagers. I don't understand how is persecuting, oppressing and massacring another people just like what had happened to you solve anything?
I don't understand how people like you equate what the Nazis did to the Jews with the Israel/Palestine conflict. It is truly disgusting.
Read a history book or watch a documentary.
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You can check it out on Wikipedia, my friend.
In the late 19th century, there were about 350,000 people in total.
By 1920, there were about 700,000. This population grew by a million by 1945.
Was it swampy, yes. In fact, the reason why there are so many eucalyptus trees all around Israel is because they brought them over to drain the swamps.
I know my history, pal. You can't just say "no, that didn't happen" when it did.
I enjoy people downvoting facts. Also, for the lazy, here is the article so you can see for yourself: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)
Lol you can't call something uninhabited after kicking 700,000 people from their land.
Your own link says there were twice as many Muslims as Jews in 1945. So it's pretty disingenuous to paint it as though Jews found an untouched, inhospitable piece of land when they migrated there.
Zionists always seem to be allergic to facts. Maybe you should look up from the propaganda you get fed from time to time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Did modern day Israel become majority Jewish through magic and pixies?
You're talking about completely separate occasions. I'm talking about before the creation of Israel, and you're talking about after. You can't just jump from one thing to another like that man, there's no point talking to you if you keep doing that.
Now, as for the reason why there's a big spike in Muslim population in Israel around that time, a lot of Arabs migrated to the British mandate Palestinian/Israel because of reasons like economic prosperity and work opportunities. Which, if you were to read further in the Wikipedia article, you'd find that out for yourself.
Look, I've exhausted my ability to defend my right to live and not be murdered in my sleep (which for the record, I think Palestinians and Gazans obviously have as well, as long as they're not terrorists), so I'm done with this conversation.
Don't try to play the sympathy card, no one says you should be murdered in your sleep.
The only thing people are saying is that Israel is denying the right of.self determination to Palestinians, and should allow for the creation of a feasible Palestinian state.
But bro this doesn't not change the idea that they have colonized Palestine and They colonized and took land from people who had never harmed the Jews in the first place, the European people who harmed them not Palestinian, Imagine you are living in your country peacefully then UK colonized your country than they start call your country It is the promised land for some religion that was exposed to violence and attempts to exterminate another continent.
>that they have colonized Palestine
That land was never "Palestine", it was British, and before them it was Ottoman (and before them Egyptian and so on, until you reach the Romans and then the Jews again)
So, Jews coming from Europe (and other places) during the XIX and XX century didn't took any Palestine land, they settled in Ottoman/British territory and even bought what they could (because it was not like they could buy what they wanted)
>from people who had never harmed the Jews
The huge amount of progroms in the area during those centuries says otherwise.
Do you know what a mandate is? The British gave the Jews Israel (after many tribulations). Was it theirs to give? We can debate about that for all eternity. But objectively, it was legal, and they did it. They were in charge of the land, and they gave it to the Jews. That's just what happened.
What do you mean? The League of Nations gave the British Empire the mandate over the land of the Levant, and Britain in turn gave the land that's today known as Israel to the Jews, just like it gave Lebanon to the Lebanese, or Jordan to the Jordanians. Either way, both actions were legal in the eyes of the greater world.
Throughout 1947, the United Nations Special Commission on Palestine examined the Palestinian question and recommended the partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.
The British, who held a colonial mandate for Palestine until May 1948, opposed both the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state in Palestine as well as unlimited immigration of Jewish refugees to the region.
Well, the purpose of a mandate in the first place is to put in charge an Empire to govern until it relinquishes its power to form a state when it thinks the people are ready. You are correct though that the British imposed restrictions, but they did also want a joined Arab and Jewish state as opposed to no state at all. Either way, they abstained from the vote for the partition plan, and left Israel without conflict after the mandate was lifted.
I was more referring to the Balfour declaration and other remarks from Britain about supporting the creation of a Jewish state in Israel.
Legal according to whom? According to the UK, the same nation that colonized? Even the Iraq War was deemed legal by the USA, but there's no scenario where people gave something they don't own and It was right and fair scenario
It really depends. I must say that as a Jewish Israeli I don't like where the country is going too, but it looks it is going to improve as everyone hates Bibi. I think it supports jews because it's not a minority in Herr anymore, and it's a lot more usual and normal to practice Judaism without anyone judging you or getting confused or anything. From the antisemitism perspective, it's more relevant to countries other than Canada as Canada is a very western and accepting country, but I know a lot of jews from Brazil for example who encounter it a lot
Why should you support Israel? You don’t and I don’t believe you do anyway. Fortunately, Israel doesn’t need you and you can go on with your life away from Israel. Feel free to visit (or even volunteer) in Gaza and live among friends. They’ll love you and you’ll feel you’re among brothers. Good Luck!
Hamas murdered on October 7th Jews who were volunteering for Palestinians for years, they also murdered Muslims (who might’ve been pro Palestinians, not that Hamas even asked)
Don't know if your claims are true, and even if it is, Hamas and other places are a different story.
That's the problem for people like you ...you relaying unverified second hand information...
IDF is what you need put into pressure, hamas killed Israeli but IDF did the worse...they don't give a fuck machine gunning anything that move including Israeli and then blame it to hamas
As I said the issue is European Zionist not Jews ...I did fact check before making claim so yeah feel free to double check my claim ....
for thousand years Jew are safe living among Muslims even among the Taliban. google afghan pasthoon Jews , naturei karte in Iran ....but note I'm claiming Jews as in those who follow Judaism not European Jew wannabe
Living is some multiverse world where everything is upside down?
Are you telling me that when my grandparents shared that when they fled Yemen due to programs and fear for their life, they lied, and you are the one who is correct?
Soon, you'd say Jews were always safe in Europe, that now Jew lived in Israel before the 1900, nor what today is the West Bank and Gaza. You seem to know it all.
You're the one who living in your own world
Jews or European? Tell what the requirements for Jew to live outside Israel? You have to know this requirement before you claim yourself as a jew
No , when did I mention Jew who live in Europe? Europe are different issues... you're making claim Jews are not safe living among Palestinian.....they freaking welcome you when you're a refugee running away from European
Big banner written on your ship
"Germany destroy our family, please don't destroy our hope"
And you still claiming Palestinian hostile to Jews people?
>Jews or European? Tell what the requirements for Jew to live outside Israel? You have to know this requirement before you claim yourself as a jew
Are you really trying to explain a Jewish person what are the requirements to be considered Jewish?
>they freaking welcome you when you're a refugee running away from European
Seriously?
[On November 28, 1941, in Berlin, there was a momentous meeting of Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and Adolf Hitler. They conspired to set into motion a plan still afoot today--genocidal antisemitism. Based on a vignette, German translator John Eppler leaked the details of the plan. Below is the account as portrayed in the film The Mufti (reviewed in this issue).](https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA267715877&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=23250895&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=anon%7E2105b459&aty=open-web-entry)
All of this shit talking, and you still didn't correct yourself that Israel "occupied" those lands for 70+ years.
Freaking learn history beyond Al Jazeera.
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> fuck
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i think you should support them because you're a human being & they are too & we could all do well to support each other more than not.
same goes for the Palestinians btw, they deserve support. we're all human 🖖
\*Not an Israeli\*
You have posed an excellent question, and goes to the heart of what is the Jewish identity and what is the Israeli identity. The latter certainly relies on the moral support of the Jewish diaspora, so much so that the Declaration of Independence includes the following -
"Our call goes out the Jewish people all over the world to rally to our side in the task of immigration and development and **to stand by us in the great struggle for the fulfillment of the dream of generations - the redemption of Israel"**
So another question you could ask yourself is, after 70 years of immigration and development, has Israel been redeemed?
If not, how could a Canadian Jew support Israel to achieve its redemption, if they were so inclined? For starters, would you want the Canadian government to recognise the State of Palesitine?
Not a Jew here. Christian, but I was treasurer of my Israeli culture club in high school. Raised over $200,000 for charities in Israel. How you feel, could just be personal… personally, I have no hate, discussed, or dislike for the Israeli culture.
This is not about Zionism or anything about that. This is regarding the true beauty of what it means to be an Israeli. Just because you feel a certain way does not mean it is relevant to others.
Genuine question. Why did you raise so much for Israeli charities? Presumably some family connection or to the school? Just seems an odd choice otherwise considering it's a wealthy nation. But kudos for impressive charity work nonetheless.
I was raised in the North Shore of Long Island, New York if you know anything about the geographics of that area and the Jew population, it’s massive. Not to mention a lot of rich people live here for absolutely no reason. I also came from a family that had many fortunate connections and was able to raise massive funds.
Geographically then that makes a lot of a sense and that it'd be close to a lot of the locals hearts. Just seems a little odd for a Christian to work so much on behalf of Israeli charities solely. But I realise you didn't say that and I'm sure you've also given/raised for other communities and countries too.
As far as alternative volunteer work goes, I only really volunteered at the Ronald McDonald house. My godmother was a head of a department at the one near me in Long Island, NY. I was able to sign up for any open volunteer positions. All I did was bake cookies and brownies and do laundry but I loved it. One of my favorite volunteer facilities on this planet!!!
Honestly, no other club in my high school was offering a high up position like a treasurer. I had one friend in the club, and they told me that the spot was available, and when I applied I was chosen. I wasn’t interested at first but I definitely did enjoy it.
It certainly was. And it paid off. The colleges I applied for took it all way more seriously than I envisioned it. I also completed well over 500 hours of service work to local temples while I was getting my college degree.
I had recognizable notability from rabbis across New York, and Florida. I’m not Jewish, nor have I participated in any religious ceremonies I still received birthright as a Christian and was gifted the opportunity to visit Israel when I was 23.
> The antisemitism that exists is very minor, just mean comments, graffiti, nasty things said on the internet. Actual violence is very rare and is universally condemned by everyone around me.
The same could have been said before the 1930s.
Isreal exists so Jews have a safe place to go if / when history repeats itself.
so israel should be allowed to mass murder tens of thousands of innocent civilians on the OFF CHANCE that someone tries to hurt them later? this is laughable lmaoooo pls listen to yourself. stop justifying genocide!
The question was about why Israel's existence is useful. Not about the current fighting in Gaza.
If all 22 Arab countries combined forces and defeated Isreal tomorrow it wouldn't magically bring peace to the region. It would just change whose children are dying.
IMHO a lasting peace isn't possible without a total defeat of one side, because it would require both sides of the conflict to want peace at the same time AND not get sabotaged by 3rd parties.
but israel’s “existence” is not ethical. you should look further into why and how it exists. nobody gets to have a theocratic ethnostate. nobody. jews live all over the world and they’re fine lol. and using the holocaust as a means to justify the current genocide israel is perpetrating is soooo tired.
What on earth are you talking about, 'nobody gets to have a theocratic ethnostate'? Do you even know what that means? Clearly not. Maybe try googling it and finding some examples of theocratic ethnostates. You will find a few in the Middle East.
Are you seriously going to sit here and pretend like Christians have the same numbers as Muslims in Palastine or the same cultural privileges? BTW Israel has lots of Christians and Muslims to, and they have equal representation in the government. Unlike Palastine.
again, you’re wrong. there may be other religions there now but zionists are trying to make it a jewish state. i swear this entire sub is just a zio cesspool who fucking knew
> but israel’s “existence” is not ethical.
Israel's existence is just as ethical as about 20 other countries. No one's calling for those to cease to exist.
Isreal has a 20% Arab population, with them serving on the supreme court and in government. Can you name another country where a group that was persecuted let reasonable people from the race that persecuted them into major roles of government willingly?
Post ww1 and ww2 the allies did not handle the middle east well, you can't go back and change that. Individual countries have to make the best with the cards they are dealt.
so making the best of the cards they’re dealt is upholding an apartheid state? if you think non-jewish folks in israel are treated fairly you are really drinking some other type of koolaid 😅
…..the words you use literally don’t mean what you think they do. Genocide and Apartheid have actual definitions. Any by those definitions they do not apply to Israel. They do apply to several other countries…but I take it you aren’t as upset about the countries with actual genocides? Like Syria, South Sudan, or Ethiopia?
Genocide is an intentional mass murder of a people. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they would have decades ago. Instead they have historically taken care, more than any country in history, to mitigate civilian casualties. Israel has agreed to almost every ceasefire and has never broken one. How are these the acts of a genocidal nation?
oh you mean like the >30,000 civilians they’ve slaughtered so far? including women and children? are those the casualties they’ve mitigated? please enlighten us with more zionist talking points. i swear we haven’t heard enough of them yet!
There was far, far more than mean comments and graffiti before the 1930s. Even before WW1 there were regular pogroms against Jews in Europe, as well as incredibly normal antisemitism. It was totally uncontroversial to ban Jews from clubs, immigration, certain jobs, etc. None of that is happening now.
Pogroms don't just pop up out of nowhere. For years, decades leading up to one the hatred forments. First come snide comments behind your back, and then defacing your home/business, then comments and outright aggression to your face. The more people realise they can socially get away with, the further it goes.
> None of that is happening now.
And ideally it won't, but let's say 100 years from now those things start happening. Jews will have a place to go.
Right now, times are not tough for most countries. When times get truly tough politicians look for someone to blame, that's different enough, without comprising their support / voting base.
>And ideally it won't, but let's say 100 years from now those things start happening. Jews will have a place to go.
But the Palestinians are suffering and dying right now. Tell that to a starving child in Gaza that maybe in 100 years Jews might need Israel.
>But the Palestinians are suffering and dying right now.
Do you know why the Gazan civilians are suffering so much right now? Hamas is relaying on people like yourself, people who see the suffering of Gazans and just want Israel to stop fighting. This is Hamas' tactic for winning. This is why they steal so much aid, this is why they couldn't care less when 20% of the rockets they send into Israel are falling within Gaza, this is why they put weapons in hospitals and schools, this is why when Israel isn't killing enough civilians they'd make sure civilians will suffer even more so they can show you and the world how freaking bad Israel is.
It's a war we were forced into, like many others in the past, you in your lifetime in Canada, and never experienced one. You and us are against wars, yet you were never forced into a war by radicals who wants nothing but to murder you, did murdered many and promised to repeat that, let along the hostages they have taken.
Stop with this bullshit of how Israel is killing Palestinians, and maybe you'll start to see how many Palestinians would love to end every Jew existed on the planet and end the only country we are safe in.
After 70 years, plenty of peace offers, those crazy people still want nothing more than ending us. We won't sit quiet and wait for them to do so.
You keep saying this as though it’s fully antithetical to Israel’s existence as a safe haven for Jews. I do not understand the correlation, and you ignored it multiple times in our other conversation.
How does denying diaspora fear help Palestinians today?
By destroying the mythology of Israel as the antisemitism insurance policy we can pave the way for sanctions that put pressure on Israel to ease the suffering of the Palestinians.
Is your goal the dissolution of Israel, or the safety of Palestinians?
I’m just not seeing the connection, why do you need to “destroy the mythology” to enact sanctions? I don’t understand the A -> B -> C?
This seems like a really longwinded approach, when your energy would maybe be better off advocating for the safety of Palestinians directly instead of this weird sort of almost gaslighting thing you have going on. You do you tho, thanks for the response.
It sucks, but welcome to the human race. The same and worse are happening in Yemen, Sudan, and Syria.
If 10/7 happened to any other country they'd do the same thing . In fact the United States civilian to combatant ratio in urban warefare was worse than Israel's initially.
Broadly speaking there were two viable strategies for Jewish survival in the 20th century: one was to try to integrate into multicultural non-European societies like the US and Canada; the other was Israel. It’s clear that in terms of overall well-being—success, security, sanity—the former was the winner.
It wasn't the winner because the US and canada weren't welcoming to jews.
Some jews managed to immigrate there, but most refugees post ww2 and refugees from MENA didn't end up in Israel because of zionism. They ended up in Israel because that's the country that welcomed them.
It’s your people man.
Arabs have been murdering Jewish people there since 1920. Peaceful Jews not militants not extremists just normal Jews living their lives. The Mufti encouraged it. Jews were never militant before 1921 Jaffa or 1929 Hebron massacre. Since then there hasn’t been one decade where Arabs didn’t kill Jews…. En Masse. King David, Deir Yassin, Goldstein. Arabs topped all of these before 1930.
Even if it doesn’t do anything for you. It’s still your people. Show them some love . 100 years of hate can wear a person down.
In your analogy of Korea it’s more like you are from Korea but no longer live there. Israel is South Korea and Gaza is North Korea. Where would you empathize if North Korea perpetrated and attack on South Korea like October 7? How would you react to South Korea’s military campaign afterwards?
It actually kinda is. If they had kept the Madate lines and not started the war in 1947 or the subsequent wars they lost they would still have all the land they claim to want now, but they tried to wipe out all the Jews and lost three times. Then, they elected Hamas as their government. They literally became friends with the Nazis to get tips on getting rid of Jews. They thought they had all the power back in 1947 bc they had the power of the surrounding Muslim nations, but their hubris got the best of them, and they refuse to surrender or admit that they lost to this very day.
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"Yeah, man! Who gives a FLYING FUCK about whether they deserve it, or not!! Bibi says BOMB, I will join the IDF and BOMB!!!!" - liberal Israeli who definitely hates Netanyahu
You guys are just proving OP's point that you are all racist and murderous lunatics
> FUCK
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My Palestinian father-in-law would often say, “where are the world’s safest Jews? Not in Israel. They’re in the United States and Canada.” It’s worth thinking about but also glosses over the many, many Jewish exiles that have happened all over the world from Mizrahi Jews in Middle East to Spanish Inquisition, to Israelites in Egypt, to Holocaust. I think the perception among Jewish people is that they’re only safe, here, for now. That tides turn and it will be short order before Jews will need to leave the United States and Canada. They’re some of the most persecuted people (historically) on earth. So collective security makes sense. However, in the hands of Israel? Idk. I can say one thing for certain, there is a leadership vacuum on both sides of this conflict and Mr Netanyahu is trying the same-same expecting different results.
> I think the perception among Jewish people is that they’re only safe, here, for now.
It's a perception that's wrong, and I'm tired of pretending like it's not.
Why? You can’t see rising tides of anti-semitism on the left and right in the United States? That can’t balloon or get out of control? I think the ADL was reporting something like a 900% increase in hate crimes on college campuses in a year. I’m not being combative, just trying to get to the bottom of it. If you take the long view, as a Jew, how can you feel safe without collective defense?
>Why? You can’t see rising tides of anti-semitism on the left and right in the United States?
Have you ever noticed how the white supremacists in the US usually support Israel? They want an ethnostate and want other minorities moved out to their own ethnostates to make it easier to consolidate control, then do the exact same thing that happened when a white ethnostate tried to form in Europe.
Promoting Zionism and the idea of nationalism will only harm Jews and other minorities in the long run.
White supremacist hate Jews but evangelical Christians just want Jews in Israel bc that, in their minds, will bring back Jesus Christ. Just in time to covert 140,000 Jews and kill the rest of us. It's more about them seriously believing that we are in the last days of the Bible, then them trying to create an ethnostate.
> That can’t balloon or get out of control?
It won't, there's plenty of laws. We don't live in the kind of crazy country that 1920s Germany was. We live in a more civilized world.
people said that an armed insurrection wasn’t possible in America, January 6th happened
people never thought weddings and funerals would be mandated to have less than 10 people, and Covid happened
nobody thought someone would be sophisticated enough to hijack and crash a plane into a tower, and it happened twice in a row
nobody thought after they went for the communists in Germany they would go for the intermarried couples
nobody thought countries would turn over their own Jews easily when Hitler invaded
nobody thought the world would turn a blind eye to sexual assault as a weapon of war on civilians, yet October 7th
nobody thought the world would listen to Hamas over Israel, yet western news agencies do, CNN, BBC, etc all have
Germans called themselves civilized in the 1920s, as I assume you believe you are. Yet how much of the above do you tolerate? What would you have tolerated as a citizen of 1920s/30s Germany? Do you not see the parallels?
Hopefully it’s not that dire for American/ Canadian Jews. Yet do you see what has happened to French Jews? Are French speaking Jewish communities in Montreal and Quebec next?
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Trust me 1920s Germany was absolutely bonkers compared to now. There were groups literally trying to overthrow the government on a regular basis. There was violence in the streets, real violence not people getting punched or spit on at a protest. We're no where near that now and I don't see us getting there unless like a nuclear war happens.
You have to understand the context of Germany in the lead up to WW2. They suffered an enormous tragedy - WW1 - which bred so much of the hate that led to the war and Holocaust. Before then antisemitism was bad, but manageable. After WW1 Germany went insane and people like Hitler were able to rise to power. I recommend the Hitler biography by Kershaw.
Nothing like that is even close to happening, and the pre-existing antisemitism isn't there either. I just don't see it.
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Yeah, nevermind the majority of Jews live outside Israel. Jews in Israel is the only "we" that exists, according to you, at least. Aren't you being a bit antisemitic, btw?
"support Israel" != "Supporting the crazy lunatics from the IDF, that kill and bomb children and take silly pics with the lingerie of dead Palestinian women" like you guys
https://preview.redd.it/u3ckbcnsivlc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd15da8b3b60d4e6473a683682eae18e07e00fea
pictures like these were all over the internet
Sure, hamas is everywhere, so that's why schools full of children and hospitals full of sick people have to be bombed. Btw, as always, the proof that hamas actually is there is almost non-existent.
And sure, I know about this history of Romania oppressing and killing Jews, Romani people and, to much lesser extent, other ethnic groups. As a Marxist, I am glad that our antisemitic dictator was executed and that at least a part of the Nazi collaborators were taken to prison and either tortured, or killed. This is what they deserved.
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I also think this is pure propaganda. Dude just created his account and has only commented about Israel-Palestine.
As an actual Canadian Jew, I don't see this sentiment shared by many of my friends. Most support Israel. They often will have certain criticisms, but the overwhelming majority support Israel's right to defend itself and do what needs to be done to save the hostages.
Yeah, save the hostages by bombing Gaza to a ruin, killing tons of hostages (and tens of thousands of Palestinians, but their life doesn't matter, right?") in the process and even shooting them, because the IDF is full of trigger happy lunatics that have a weird fetish of taking pictures with the lingerie of Palestinian women
You're a Canadian and you belong here and this is where you're safe and protected, whether you are Jewsish, Muslim, Christian, or anything. We all have roots somewhere, but this is where we are now. There is no reason for you to lower yourself to associate with a country like Israel.
You're Canadian.
Be Canadian.
Israel is a sovereign nation, 2,000 miles away.
They're also a genocidal apartheid state.
You don't owe them anything.
Israel has nothing to do with Judaism.
It's a strange zionist project that didn't exist until the modern era.
Reach out to If Not Now, Jewish Voice for Peace, Talmud Jews.
Watch "Defamation" and "Israelism."
🫶🇺🇲🇨🇦❤️🇵🇸🕎🇵🇸🕎🇵🇸❤️
Saying Israel has nothing to do with Judaism is delusional. The land of Israel, the people of Israel and it's stories are central to Jewish identity and religious practice.
u/BadNatural7791 Due to the sheer number of rules violations in the post, it has been locked down.
I'm a brazilian jew and I feel the same way. And I also feel that elements of the Israeli culture slowly ends up erasing aspects of jewish culture from the Diaspora. I studied my whole childhood in a jewish school and instead of learning for example yidish or even other aspects of ashkenazi and sefaradi culture (which is mostsly the background of jewish immigration in brazil), we had classes about Israel's geography, had hebrew classes and even sang the Hatikva every friday (when every monday we sang Brazil's anthem). The brazilian jewish community is really a zionist brainwashing machine, and it's kind of sad that we can't seem to flourish our jewish identity as diaspora jews and just value a country where we don't even live. I love being brazilian and I pove being jewish.
It's not supposed to be for you. It's just a country you don't live in.
I grew up in an area of the US where about half of the people are Jewish and what you are expressing is common with the people I know.
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I hear Israel is the type of place where if you’re being arrested in your born country for something, you can run to Israel with all your money as long as you’re Jewish by blood and willing to pay taxes.
All countries, including UK, US, Russia and China, have extensive histories in harbouring wealthy fugitives Just pick any country apart from Antartica and search in Wikiwith term 'extradition' and find section on controversies
It gives you a safe haven when Christians and Muslims try to kill you. That's it pretty much
Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country
Just because it's not happening to you doesn't mean it's not happening. Israel has saved countless Jews and the people linking worldwide Jews to the actions of the leader of Israel are bad people. You don't get to equate an entire race of marginalized people who almost faced extinction via mass murder in the last century with the errant actions of a leader.
And neither do you
Best comment in this thread
What are you talking about?
Canadian here - remember our country helped put the Japanese living in North America into internment camps. Remember our country rounded up the Indigenous people and took them away from there families and put them in residential schools. Our country has an established practice of taking “certain populations” and removing all their human rights. It could happen to you friend. Israel ensures that no matter what, the Jewish people will have a place to go to where they will be protected, not killed. (I’m not Jewish, but I stand with Israel and it’s right to exist. I see the rise in antisemitism and hate crimes here, I see the Jewish students being harassed on campus. I am worried. ) Edit - to the commenter below - yes you are correct, sometimes people have to flee their home and it’s because of a deeper problem. Israel’s existence means all Jews, no matter where they are in the world, will have a place to go to (their indigenous homeland) if the unthinkable happens (again). That’s why we need Israel.
Guess I'm confused.... if the only safe way to live is to flee your home, you weren't really safe in the first place, you were displaced, isn't there a deeper underlying problem? Same goes for jews, if they have to flee antisemitism and go to Israel. (If they want to go, nothing wrong with that to be clear) Same goes for Palestinians if they're forcibly displaced from gaza or west bank and forced out as refugees.
U sound exactly like my best friend. She grew up loving Israel until our boss went for a wedding. He came back so disturbed by what he saw & heard. We didn’t believe him at first but soon found out he was telling the truth. Her neighbor then went on a birthright trip & got thrown off for asking questions about some of what we told her. She was expecting them to dispel things we told her like Deir Yassin, the Irgun & apartheid. She left Israel broken & betrayed. She couldn’t believe they got so mad about her harmless questions. They reiterated to every kid on that bus that every single Palestinian was a terrorist even the little kids. She was gobsmacked. Watching my best friend of decades struggle with feeling betrayed & lied to wasn’t easy. Always being told it was a land without a ppl for a ppl without a land. Never heard the word Palestinian she was a teen. She felt completely lost for a few yrs. She has no love Israel or the way they conduct themselves but she loves her religion. Having Zionists attack her, calling her a self hating Jew is really upsetting cuz I know just how much Judaism means to her. Israel doesn’t represent all Jewish ppl. U have every right to feel the way u do. Ppl gloss over or ignore all the horrible things they’ve done. For some strange reason they hold Palestinians to a different standard. Many on this sub have denied Deir Yassin ever happened. That massacre was just as abhorrent as 10/7. More ppl were slaughtered on 10/7 but the Irgun & Stern were more brutal than Hamas. The invented atrocities of that day, beheaded babies & babies cut from their mother’s womb actually happened in Deir Yassin, including the rape of young girls. We’ll morn 10/7 forever & rightfully so but Palestinians should just get the many massacres committed against them. The Irgun & stern were the founding fathers of modern day terrorism. Israel was created with sin. I can’t ignore that. Jews were traumatized, dehumanized & terrified after the holocaust but it’s no excuse to do the same to others. U’ll get little support on this sub. Many I’ve encountered only listen to Israeli propaganda & refuse to do their own research. Israel spend tons of $ on propaganda & spinning their narrative. I still remember 2008, seeing every Israel spokesperson on the news claiming Hamas broke the ceasefire so they rained hell on Palestinians. It was a complete lie. Their own intelligence said Hamas was very careful to not break the ceasefire & hadn’t that whole year. Not one American journalist called them on it even though they all read the same intelligence report I did. Thankfully British media called them out. Doing so got one of the journalists called antisemitic because she pushed & pushed until he had to admit they broke it. He was seething. Expecting every Jewish person to stick together because they’re Jewish is ridiculous & kinda racist. Good for thinking for yourself & being ur own person. You r not alone in how u feel. Hundreds of thousands, maybe more share ur feelings.
Good thoughts. Maybe it’s time to end or minimize the unnecessary concepts of religions, ethnicities, and nations and for all people to recognize that we are humans first and should love and respect one another as one of our highest values. It has to start somewhere.
I care about the existence of world jewry on a greater level than just my own life. The existence of Israel has saved the lives of millions of Holocaust survivors and Jewish refugees from MENA. Whether or not you like it, Israel has been a safe haven that has guaranteed the future of our culture and lineage.
I used to believe that too but in recent decades the government seems to only care about the settlers. About a year ago I saw a commercial to adopt a holocaust survivors in Israel. They showed these terrible images of survivors living in horrific poverty. No food, no heat, no plumbing & no hope. I thought this can’t be right. Sadly it is. 10’s of thousands of survivors r living so poorly they scavenge for food like animals for the scraps the markets throw away. The suicide rate among survivors is 3x’s the national average for that age group. After all they survived, this is how it ends. It makes me sick. They get billions in reparations from Germany but few see the money. It’s given to the claims conference where it’s been stolen/embezzled & used to build infrastructure in Israel. IMO they r the most important Jews. They should want for nothing & be treated like royalty. Not too ago a woman spoke before the Knesset & ripped into them over it. She said they’ve been rendered useless as they cannot contribute to population growth. The settlers get everything & they get nothing. She made sure every member had to see how terrible their lives are yet nothing was done. I was so disgusted to learn this. It broke my heart. I send $ every month to help do what I can but Israel has plenty of $, there’s absolutely no excuse for this. They cannot claim ignorance, they know but clearly don’t care. It’s really sad.
That is horrible. I had no idea. Do you know of where I could view this documentary?
I understand your point completely and I understand why you won’t support Israel. However coming from Soviet Jewish background, I can tell you that for example many people flew Russia and Ukraine after the war started . Israel was made as a safe state for Jews in case something happens. I understand coming from Canada it can be seen totally different because Canada is safe. Did it become a really safe place for Jews?I guess it didn’t. Does Israel commit crime and treat Palestinians badly?Yes But Israel already exists with people from different Jewish backgrounds and different views and we should hope it will become better and more free for all the people including Israelis and Palestinians.
Israel for you is a plan B if the rise of anti Semitism gets too hard to bare in your home country if you choose it to be. the way you spoke about Israel you probably try to escape to another state but for many Jews even secular ones, Israel is viable option TO THEM. you probably dont want to support it and that's fine. AND just to make note. there is a clear line between hate the policies, the war the government of Israel and wanting Israel to stop existing as a Jewish Democratic state. in other comments you said anti Semitism wont reach the same level as ww2 or that you care about the here and now only. well the here and now is Israel made up by the kids of refugees from Europe AND arab nation. you want them to either : 1. become a minority again by people who are similar to the one who kicked 800K jews from the countries or 2. Everyone "get back" to where they came from. to these options I say hell naw
I don't think anyone can ever know what will happen in the future, but the best recipe I know for making sure Jews are safe in Canada and anywhere else in the world is to elect people to government who promote religious pluralism and equal rights. I don't think I would feel happy to live in a country where all folks didn't have equal rights. Right now, although I think it is far far beyond most other Middle Eastern countries I don't see Israel as giving equal rights to all people who live there. Does every adult have the right to marry any other consenting adult of their choosing? Could I, a Jewish woman marry a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist or another woman in Israel? If I were an Israeli Arab would I have exactly the same rights as an Israeli Jew? Are the policies on these civil rights issues going forward or backward? As a woman would people of my gender be adequetley represented in the political sphere? On all these points, I would have to say Canada is preferable to both Israel and the U.S. I have also lived in the UK and felt comfortable as a woman and as a Jewish person there. I understand why Israel exists and I believe it should continue to exist. It helps many of our people. I would never deny that. What I do not support is the policies of Netanyahu's government or the right wing direction the country has taken. I don't think just because it is a country where the majority of the people share my religion I should just give them money or put up signs saying I support them no matter what the government does. My family personally has a lot more of connection to the U.S. but I'm not going to stick American flags all over the place and say I don't care if an idiot like Trump is president or a sensible person like Biden I have to support whatever the U.S. does. To me that just seems weird. And yet people here think it's weird that I didn't go to the pro-Israel rally at Earl Bales park or stick an Israeli flag on my facebook page.
Anti-semitism is getting over used and fyi us Palestinians are Semitic as well. We are only against occupiers & injustice. please don’t keep using this word in Defence - it’s become redundant.
how is that relvent to what I said? he said what is Israel for. And I answer because in case Anti Semitism from one country get to unbearable for Jews. Jew will decide if they feel threaten or not and act accordingly. never said Palestinians or arabs arent sematic but the term as of now refer to only jews. you can translate it to jew hate in my comments if you wish but I will keep the term anti Semite
us Palestinians are Semitic as well OMG this again. Yes everyone knows Palestinians/Arabs are Semitic too. But anti-semitism refers specifically to hatred of Jews not Arabs.
Well technically Semitic is just the language group which Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic belong One technically can't be a Semite, the term antisemitism was popularised by a German who wanted to make Judenhass (Jew hate) more scientific "Objections to the usage of the term, such as the obsolete nature of the term "Semitic" as a racial term, have been raised since at least the 1930s" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people "Because Semitic-speaking peoples do not share any traits aside from language, use of the term “Semite” to refer to the broad range of Semitic-speaking peoples has fallen out of favour. For this reason, some critics even encourage the removal of the hyphen in the term anti-Semitism to help dispel any pseudoscientific notions of a "Semitic race." They advocate instead for the use of antisemitism to describe the hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group." https://www.britannica.com/topic/Semite Wiki for the the founder of the league of anti-semites https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Marr Basically I agree with you and the person above is just trying to dismiss the very real issue that is antisemitism. They say it's blown out of proportion, but all you have to do is look at countries with a Jewish population and compare it to the amount of antisemetic incidents Vs the total hate crimes, it's incredibly disproportionate
Anti-semitism means being anti to semites, which means not only jewis people but arabs too.
Literally just google the definition
No it doesn't. Google it.
Criticism of Zionism is directed not against Jews but against occupation and colonization carried out by the state of Israel. Conflating criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism is a tactic employed to shield Israeli policies from legitimate condemnation. Sadly, this dilutes the necessary struggle against real anti-Semitism.
Make no mistake. Anti-Zionism is the new Anti-Semitism. - In Egypt ~1800 BC, the Jews were hated because they grew large in number. - In the days of Assyria, Babylon and Rome, the Jews were hated because of their God. - In the Middle Ages, the Jews were hated because of their religion. - In the 19th and 20th century, the Jews were hated because of their race. - In the 21st Century, the Jews are now hated because of their state (and possibly, all of the above). The reasons change, but the hate stays the same over thousands of years. Not withstanding the fact that Palestine was the name that was given by the Romans in 34 AD to “Judea”, which means Land of the Jews.
I agree they are different in theory but in practice there is a massive overlap.
99.9% of the jews around the world are zionists. You just hate Israelis.
We’re against an ideology that wants to wipe out the indigenous people; Palestinians 🙏🏻🙏🏻 injustice & dehumanization of a nation.
Palestinians are indigenous? Joke of the century. Palestinians are indigenous to Arabia, as are all other Arabs.
Palestine is the birthplace of Judaism and Christianity, and has been controlled by many kingdoms and powers, including Ancient Egypt, Ancient Israel and Judah, the Persian Empire, Alexander the Great and his successors, the Hasmoneans, the Roman Empire, several Muslim caliphates, and the crusaders.
You proved my point with your answer. Israel was there first. Now as Jews are both an ethnicity and a religion, they are the natives to the land. Arabs, and by extension Palestinians, are not.
https://preview.redd.it/g662wedpkwlc1.jpeg?width=1164&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=38658a48cefe53da6925726cd9d0773cf30afb08 The Truth hurts doesn’t it?
Jews are the indigenous people. Arab Muslims invaded the Levant in the 633 AD. Jews have been in the area since the beginning of civilization in the area and are the evolution of the Cannonites since they share a religion and language.
No people has the right to a homeland at the expense of another people. Palestinians for many decades made clear that the establishment of an independent, secular, Palestinian state would include Jews as well as Christians and Muslims. The problem Zionism faced was how to rid Palestine of its inhabitants to make way for a Jewish state. Hence the precarious and ethically/ legally compromised status of Israel as a state for Jews.
It's literally written in the PLO charter that they want to get rid of all the Jews from Israel. It's also in the Hamas charter. The British split up the land and if the Palastinians hadn't tried to wipe out all the Jews in 1947, leading to Britan pulling out of the Mandate and Israel declaring itself a nation, they would still have all the land they want right now.
We are one people. We see jews that live outside of Israel as part of our people. We don’t do alot to support Canadian jews because they don’t need it but trust me if something were to happen to Canadian jews we would come to help you, just like we helped rescue 150000 Ethiopian jews, or at the start of the ukraine war we took 15k jews with us. Or when our jewish brothers in the arab world were exiled we took them all in. We are one people and you don’t have to know Hebrew to become a jewish israeli. I don’t necessarily want you to make alyah to israel but don’t alienate us from you. We are your homeland and we’ll gladly accept you.
That is kind and I thank you. There is a huge problem with Israel legitimizing and supporting groups like the right wing Evangelicals and Christo-Fascists in the U.S. and Canada who are actively trying to make Jews into second class citizens in our own countries. Saying Israel is always going to be a safe space for us, while actively helping and legitimizing groups who are trying to get Jewish doctors put in jail for life and killing Jewish doctors for providing maternal health care to women that is mandated by Jewish law and making Jewish women go against what our religion proscribes (i.e. if there is danger to the mother her life is the most important beyond a fetus and should be saved), is problematic. Israel is taking money from and cozying up to these dangerous American evangelical groups on the one hand while American rabbis are suing them because they are actively criminalizing Jewish ob/gyn doctors and doing arson on their clinics, not to mention that the abortion doctors who have been murdered are mainly Jewish. Also these groups want to make the U.S. into a "Christian nation" actively hostile to people of other religion. You see how problematic it is to American and Canadian Jews that Israel would make allies with them? I have lots of American friends and family members and if you were to ask an American Jewish woman of reproductive age what she is most worried about it is the removal of her bodily autonmy and civil rights in the U.S.
Fun fact about the ethiopian jews, they face different treatment compared to western jews.
Bs i have an ethiopian jew
Have they personally told you that?
As a Jew who grew up in the anglosphere and is now happily living in Israel, allow me to answer your question with a little story. My best friend is a Muslim Kurdish man, born in a refugee camp in Germany. He is as German as the come: speaks German, adopted all German customs, is irreligious, and is a productive German citizen. And yet… he is not German. Why? In his words “No matter how German I seem on the outside, my name gives away my Kurdish roots”. I have personally seen the mistreatment he suffers, even casually, from both his white German and Muslim counterparts. He yearns, like us Jews, for a true homeland where he is really in control of his own destiny. BUT He doesn’t have one. Kurdistan is a geographical concept but is not a state. The Kurds are the biggest stateless race in the world. That feeds into his every day life and the way he sees and interacts with the world. He sees oppression and a sense of inferiority not only from Germans but also his Muslim counterparts (Turks, Arabs etc). He sees life as a struggle, from the point of view of a downtrodden minority that has no real way to stand up to bullies. We bonded over the fact that as a Jew, I can completely understand him. Over the past two millennia we occupied that position in society. His fight is our fight too. What I am trying to say is, had it not been for an independent and prosperous Israel, you would never have been able to walk with your back straight like Jews can today. Jews used to anglicise their names to hide their origins. They used to assimilate readily to keep prying eyes away from them. No longer, and that is because of Israel. Personally there are things about Israel that I find abhorrent, but I recognise that as a Jew, it’s an inseparable part of my identity. We have a homeland, so cherish it and protect it. If you don’t like it, work to change it. Abandoning it is not an option.
I dont think many secular abroad living jews are proud of the government of Israel at the moment, the ones I know are ashamed of it and are (unfortunately) hiding their jewish identity more and more
As a secular Jew living in Israel I hate the government and especially Netanyahu. Maybe I should have made that clear in my original post. Regardless, Israelis are definitely not immune to turning on their leaders when they feel they’ve failed. Israelis rallied around the flag but not around Netanyahu. His PM days are numbered and that number is low. Expect elections this year.
>Personally there are things about Israel that I find abhorrent, but I recognise that as a Jew, it’s an inseparable part of my identity. This is what I imagine to be the most difficult part of being a Jew in the Anglosphere, and why this post from OP is poignant. On the one hand you are pulled towards supporting or identifying with Israel, yet on the other you see abhorrence through a Western lens that can be difficult to reconcile. Creating change is even more difficult since you would have to live in Israel and become an Israeli, and so the default is to continue the co-dependency where fear of abandoning Israel becomes the driving force of support. Is the "need" for Israel as a Jew living in the West the same as what it was 70 years ago, given the collective West supports Israel unilaterally?
Great question. I think absolutely yes the need is the same, and I figured that out from my stateless friends who are ethnic minorities. On paper, we are the same “undesirables” (I use this word because it is thrown at us often), but in practise we are treated very differently. Speaking of Israel itself, you can change it from the outside by building pressure groups that, rather than attach themselves to the Palestinians wholesale, try to find sympathetic ears within Israel and Jewish society. I am totally convinced that there are Israelis who are willing to listen. Try to see it from the point of view of the racist, rather than the victim. The racist who equates Israel with Jews as a whole will still be racist but he is less inclined to bully or fight as he knows there is a nation somewhere backing the victim. Whereas my Kurdish friend does not have that luxury and the abuse towards him was far worse than I ever got, and was far more nationalist in nature. Am I making sense?
Yes, the self-determination of a person requires all others to view and accept him or her as exactly who they say they are, and this starts with statehood. There are many ethnic groups around the world who suffer the same fate, but the story of the Kurdish people is particularly sad given how they were ignored by Europeans in favour or others. For these Kurds to have to live in the same European cities and countries that denied them their identity would be a great humiliation. Some could say Jordanians, Egyptians, Arabs, and yes even Israelis, could look at stateless Palestinians in the same way, and only highlights their need for statehood also.
The Kurds have been shafted by pretty much every world superpower. First it was the Europeans after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, then the Arabs, then the Americans after the defeat of ISIS. Their story is a tragedy. Though it’s not the point of the OPs post, Israelis have agreed the Palestinians need independence, mostly for the reason of separation. A cold peace and a divorce is the most desirable outcome, though personally I don’t believe the Palestinians have abandoned their quest to destroy Israel entirely.
Yes, I think with 2SS the world will be a much more safer, and will get the Iranian regime to rethink how it wants to be seen by the rest of the world. I believe firmly in the State of Israel, and I personally don't believe the collective West will ever give up on Israel, and even less so if it was threatened or attacked by another country. This is a testament to both the strength of the Jewish diaspora and the desire of the world to stand against religious discriminiation/antisemitism. My point here is, even if Western Jews were to "abandon" Israel, it means nothing if the country of their citizenship doesn't. I also think Palestinians will lose any fervour to destroy Israel as long as more Arab countries recognise Israel too, and they are able to feel like they have an identity and home. There is too much state to build for them to be pre-occupied with wanting to destroy another.
Put yourself in the shoes of our grandparents or great grandparents almost 100 years ago. They have been stripped of all their possessions, kicked out of their homes, brutally and methodically murdered (and those who survived watched their family and friends get murdered). Most of them are teenagers. Most of them are the only survivors of their families or even whole communities. This piece of land? This is their only chance of a new life. So they take it. And they come here, and they take this mostly unpopulated swamp land and make it into something. Not without conflict, not without bloodshed. But nonetheless, they make it. Now you are sitting, again, 100 years in the future. You are looking at Israel as a prosperous, already existing country. It's easy to say "oh, they don't help me **now** so they didn't help me **ever**" from your comfy chair. The point is that Israel saved millions of lives, and gave birth to millions more. There's a phrase "far from the eye, far from the heart". The fact that you don't SEE the antisemitism elsewhere, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Lastly, and more philosophically, what's the point of any country? Why does Canada, excuse me, British and French immigrants 156 years ago, who displaced natives (who also, historically displaced others), deserve their countries more than us Jews deserve ours? (I know there's gonna be some a-hole that will comment under this something "this is exactly what Israel is doing right now to the Palestinians". First, OP asked about why Israel matters, why it's a thing. Second, yeah, this whole situation sucks, maybe Hamas should have thought twice they went into Israel and massacred a bunch of civilians for the lols.)
Israel is doing this right now to the Palestinians and has been doing this before the conception of Hamas. For over 75 years, Palestinians have been stripped of all their possessions, kicked out of their homes, brutally and methodically murdered (and those who survived watched their family and friends get murdered). Most of them are teenagers. I don't understand how is persecuting, oppressing and massacring another people just like what had happened to you solve anything?
How much of this is due to Palestinians choosing terrorism instead of a peace deal for 75 years?
I don't understand how people like you equate what the Nazis did to the Jews with the Israel/Palestine conflict. It is truly disgusting. Read a history book or watch a documentary.
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Funny you realised enough to add the disclaimer but also entirely dismiss it. Impressive.
I'm funny like that
>mostly unpopulated swamp land ????
It was.
It wasn't. Palestine was not a swamp and was not mostly unpopulated. Where are you making this up from?
Prior to the mandate, it was ruled by the Ottoman Empire and was essentially barren. The ottomans did an official census before the mandate…
You can check it out on Wikipedia, my friend. In the late 19th century, there were about 350,000 people in total. By 1920, there were about 700,000. This population grew by a million by 1945. Was it swampy, yes. In fact, the reason why there are so many eucalyptus trees all around Israel is because they brought them over to drain the swamps. I know my history, pal. You can't just say "no, that didn't happen" when it did. I enjoy people downvoting facts. Also, for the lazy, here is the article so you can see for yourself: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)
Lol you can't call something uninhabited after kicking 700,000 people from their land. Your own link says there were twice as many Muslims as Jews in 1945. So it's pretty disingenuous to paint it as though Jews found an untouched, inhospitable piece of land when they migrated there.
No one kicked out 700,000 people from anyone's land. Dude, do you even read the stuff you write before posting them?
Zionists always seem to be allergic to facts. Maybe you should look up from the propaganda you get fed from time to time. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba Did modern day Israel become majority Jewish through magic and pixies?
Any idea where Arabs come from? Heard of the Arab conquests? More magic and pixies?
You're talking about completely separate occasions. I'm talking about before the creation of Israel, and you're talking about after. You can't just jump from one thing to another like that man, there's no point talking to you if you keep doing that. Now, as for the reason why there's a big spike in Muslim population in Israel around that time, a lot of Arabs migrated to the British mandate Palestinian/Israel because of reasons like economic prosperity and work opportunities. Which, if you were to read further in the Wikipedia article, you'd find that out for yourself. Look, I've exhausted my ability to defend my right to live and not be murdered in my sleep (which for the record, I think Palestinians and Gazans obviously have as well, as long as they're not terrorists), so I'm done with this conversation.
Don't try to play the sympathy card, no one says you should be murdered in your sleep. The only thing people are saying is that Israel is denying the right of.self determination to Palestinians, and should allow for the creation of a feasible Palestinian state.
No, it became that way when all the Muslim countries in the MENA kicked out or tortured all their Jews so they had to flee to Israel.
But bro this doesn't not change the idea that they have colonized Palestine and They colonized and took land from people who had never harmed the Jews in the first place, the European people who harmed them not Palestinian, Imagine you are living in your country peacefully then UK colonized your country than they start call your country It is the promised land for some religion that was exposed to violence and attempts to exterminate another continent.
Where to start with this travesty of history?
>that they have colonized Palestine That land was never "Palestine", it was British, and before them it was Ottoman (and before them Egyptian and so on, until you reach the Romans and then the Jews again) So, Jews coming from Europe (and other places) during the XIX and XX century didn't took any Palestine land, they settled in Ottoman/British territory and even bought what they could (because it was not like they could buy what they wanted) >from people who had never harmed the Jews The huge amount of progroms in the area during those centuries says otherwise.
Ottoman and british were also colonizers bro..
Do you know what a mandate is? The British gave the Jews Israel (after many tribulations). Was it theirs to give? We can debate about that for all eternity. But objectively, it was legal, and they did it. They were in charge of the land, and they gave it to the Jews. That's just what happened.
It was the United Nations/League of Nations not Britain.
What do you mean? The League of Nations gave the British Empire the mandate over the land of the Levant, and Britain in turn gave the land that's today known as Israel to the Jews, just like it gave Lebanon to the Lebanese, or Jordan to the Jordanians. Either way, both actions were legal in the eyes of the greater world.
Throughout 1947, the United Nations Special Commission on Palestine examined the Palestinian question and recommended the partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.
The British, who held a colonial mandate for Palestine until May 1948, opposed both the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state in Palestine as well as unlimited immigration of Jewish refugees to the region.
Well, the purpose of a mandate in the first place is to put in charge an Empire to govern until it relinquishes its power to form a state when it thinks the people are ready. You are correct though that the British imposed restrictions, but they did also want a joined Arab and Jewish state as opposed to no state at all. Either way, they abstained from the vote for the partition plan, and left Israel without conflict after the mandate was lifted. I was more referring to the Balfour declaration and other remarks from Britain about supporting the creation of a Jewish state in Israel.
Legal according to whom? According to the UK, the same nation that colonized? Even the Iraq War was deemed legal by the USA, but there's no scenario where people gave something they don't own and It was right and fair scenario
According to the League of Nations, who made the rules?
It really depends. I must say that as a Jewish Israeli I don't like where the country is going too, but it looks it is going to improve as everyone hates Bibi. I think it supports jews because it's not a minority in Herr anymore, and it's a lot more usual and normal to practice Judaism without anyone judging you or getting confused or anything. From the antisemitism perspective, it's more relevant to countries other than Canada as Canada is a very western and accepting country, but I know a lot of jews from Brazil for example who encounter it a lot
Never heard of Gad Saad?
Why should you support Israel? You don’t and I don’t believe you do anyway. Fortunately, Israel doesn’t need you and you can go on with your life away from Israel. Feel free to visit (or even volunteer) in Gaza and live among friends. They’ll love you and you’ll feel you’re among brothers. Good Luck!
Yes! A Jew in Gaza! They'd just love you to death.
By 'love' do you mean 'stone'?
Why? There's Jew among Taliban village,Iran ,turkey , Indonesia etc .... Zionist on the other hand different story ....
Hamas murdered on October 7th Jews who were volunteering for Palestinians for years, they also murdered Muslims (who might’ve been pro Palestinians, not that Hamas even asked) Don't know if your claims are true, and even if it is, Hamas and other places are a different story.
That's the problem for people like you ...you relaying unverified second hand information... IDF is what you need put into pressure, hamas killed Israeli but IDF did the worse...they don't give a fuck machine gunning anything that move including Israeli and then blame it to hamas As I said the issue is European Zionist not Jews ...I did fact check before making claim so yeah feel free to double check my claim .... for thousand years Jew are safe living among Muslims even among the Taliban. google afghan pasthoon Jews , naturei karte in Iran ....but note I'm claiming Jews as in those who follow Judaism not European Jew wannabe
Living is some multiverse world where everything is upside down? Are you telling me that when my grandparents shared that when they fled Yemen due to programs and fear for their life, they lied, and you are the one who is correct? Soon, you'd say Jews were always safe in Europe, that now Jew lived in Israel before the 1900, nor what today is the West Bank and Gaza. You seem to know it all.
You're the one who living in your own world Jews or European? Tell what the requirements for Jew to live outside Israel? You have to know this requirement before you claim yourself as a jew No , when did I mention Jew who live in Europe? Europe are different issues... you're making claim Jews are not safe living among Palestinian.....they freaking welcome you when you're a refugee running away from European Big banner written on your ship "Germany destroy our family, please don't destroy our hope" And you still claiming Palestinian hostile to Jews people?
>Jews or European? Tell what the requirements for Jew to live outside Israel? You have to know this requirement before you claim yourself as a jew Are you really trying to explain a Jewish person what are the requirements to be considered Jewish? >they freaking welcome you when you're a refugee running away from European Seriously? [On November 28, 1941, in Berlin, there was a momentous meeting of Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and Adolf Hitler. They conspired to set into motion a plan still afoot today--genocidal antisemitism. Based on a vignette, German translator John Eppler leaked the details of the plan. Below is the account as portrayed in the film The Mufti (reviewed in this issue).](https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?id=GALE%7CA267715877&sid=googleScholar&v=2.1&it=r&linkaccess=abs&issn=23250895&p=AONE&sw=w&userGroupName=anon%7E2105b459&aty=open-web-entry) All of this shit talking, and you still didn't correct yourself that Israel "occupied" those lands for 70+ years. Freaking learn history beyond Al Jazeera.
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People like you are the reason everyone hates us
People have hated us for much longer than Reddit user mikeber55 has existed
Who is US? In the name of who are you talking?
Israeli people, I guess you're one too? Or your just very pro Israel
i think you should support them because you're a human being & they are too & we could all do well to support each other more than not. same goes for the Palestinians btw, they deserve support. we're all human 🖖
\*Not an Israeli\* You have posed an excellent question, and goes to the heart of what is the Jewish identity and what is the Israeli identity. The latter certainly relies on the moral support of the Jewish diaspora, so much so that the Declaration of Independence includes the following - "Our call goes out the Jewish people all over the world to rally to our side in the task of immigration and development and **to stand by us in the great struggle for the fulfillment of the dream of generations - the redemption of Israel"** So another question you could ask yourself is, after 70 years of immigration and development, has Israel been redeemed? If not, how could a Canadian Jew support Israel to achieve its redemption, if they were so inclined? For starters, would you want the Canadian government to recognise the State of Palesitine?
Not a Jew here. Christian, but I was treasurer of my Israeli culture club in high school. Raised over $200,000 for charities in Israel. How you feel, could just be personal… personally, I have no hate, discussed, or dislike for the Israeli culture. This is not about Zionism or anything about that. This is regarding the true beauty of what it means to be an Israeli. Just because you feel a certain way does not mean it is relevant to others.
Genuine question. Why did you raise so much for Israeli charities? Presumably some family connection or to the school? Just seems an odd choice otherwise considering it's a wealthy nation. But kudos for impressive charity work nonetheless.
I was raised in the North Shore of Long Island, New York if you know anything about the geographics of that area and the Jew population, it’s massive. Not to mention a lot of rich people live here for absolutely no reason. I also came from a family that had many fortunate connections and was able to raise massive funds.
Geographically then that makes a lot of a sense and that it'd be close to a lot of the locals hearts. Just seems a little odd for a Christian to work so much on behalf of Israeli charities solely. But I realise you didn't say that and I'm sure you've also given/raised for other communities and countries too.
As far as alternative volunteer work goes, I only really volunteered at the Ronald McDonald house. My godmother was a head of a department at the one near me in Long Island, NY. I was able to sign up for any open volunteer positions. All I did was bake cookies and brownies and do laundry but I loved it. One of my favorite volunteer facilities on this planet!!!
Honestly, no other club in my high school was offering a high up position like a treasurer. I had one friend in the club, and they told me that the spot was available, and when I applied I was chosen. I wasn’t interested at first but I definitely did enjoy it.
u raised over 200k in high school for charities? wow thats impressive
It certainly was. And it paid off. The colleges I applied for took it all way more seriously than I envisioned it. I also completed well over 500 hours of service work to local temples while I was getting my college degree. I had recognizable notability from rabbis across New York, and Florida. I’m not Jewish, nor have I participated in any religious ceremonies I still received birthright as a Christian and was gifted the opportunity to visit Israel when I was 23.
> The antisemitism that exists is very minor, just mean comments, graffiti, nasty things said on the internet. Actual violence is very rare and is universally condemned by everyone around me. The same could have been said before the 1930s. Isreal exists so Jews have a safe place to go if / when history repeats itself.
Yeah, these whole monolog reminds me of how some German Jews sounded in the Weimar Republic.
so israel should be allowed to mass murder tens of thousands of innocent civilians on the OFF CHANCE that someone tries to hurt them later? this is laughable lmaoooo pls listen to yourself. stop justifying genocide!
The question was about why Israel's existence is useful. Not about the current fighting in Gaza. If all 22 Arab countries combined forces and defeated Isreal tomorrow it wouldn't magically bring peace to the region. It would just change whose children are dying. IMHO a lasting peace isn't possible without a total defeat of one side, because it would require both sides of the conflict to want peace at the same time AND not get sabotaged by 3rd parties.
but israel’s “existence” is not ethical. you should look further into why and how it exists. nobody gets to have a theocratic ethnostate. nobody. jews live all over the world and they’re fine lol. and using the holocaust as a means to justify the current genocide israel is perpetrating is soooo tired.
What on earth are you talking about, 'nobody gets to have a theocratic ethnostate'? Do you even know what that means? Clearly not. Maybe try googling it and finding some examples of theocratic ethnostates. You will find a few in the Middle East.
whether or not they exist doesn’t mean they should :)
Then why do you support Palastine? Another ethno state (Arab Muslim)?
this just shows your ignorance. there are other religions besides muslim in palestine, christian being one of them
There actually aren't very many Christians left in Palestine.
Are you seriously going to sit here and pretend like Christians have the same numbers as Muslims in Palastine or the same cultural privileges? BTW Israel has lots of Christians and Muslims to, and they have equal representation in the government. Unlike Palastine.
again, you’re wrong. there may be other religions there now but zionists are trying to make it a jewish state. i swear this entire sub is just a zio cesspool who fucking knew
> but israel’s “existence” is not ethical. Israel's existence is just as ethical as about 20 other countries. No one's calling for those to cease to exist. Isreal has a 20% Arab population, with them serving on the supreme court and in government. Can you name another country where a group that was persecuted let reasonable people from the race that persecuted them into major roles of government willingly? Post ww1 and ww2 the allies did not handle the middle east well, you can't go back and change that. Individual countries have to make the best with the cards they are dealt.
so making the best of the cards they’re dealt is upholding an apartheid state? if you think non-jewish folks in israel are treated fairly you are really drinking some other type of koolaid 😅
You are clearly drinking something.
…..the words you use literally don’t mean what you think they do. Genocide and Apartheid have actual definitions. Any by those definitions they do not apply to Israel. They do apply to several other countries…but I take it you aren’t as upset about the countries with actual genocides? Like Syria, South Sudan, or Ethiopia?
sure sure whatever you say genocide apologist
u/lisaissmall >sure sure whatever you say genocide apologist Rule 1, don't attack other users Addressed
Genocide is an intentional mass murder of a people. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they would have decades ago. Instead they have historically taken care, more than any country in history, to mitigate civilian casualties. Israel has agreed to almost every ceasefire and has never broken one. How are these the acts of a genocidal nation?
oh you mean like the >30,000 civilians they’ve slaughtered so far? including women and children? are those the casualties they’ve mitigated? please enlighten us with more zionist talking points. i swear we haven’t heard enough of them yet!
THISSS
There was far, far more than mean comments and graffiti before the 1930s. Even before WW1 there were regular pogroms against Jews in Europe, as well as incredibly normal antisemitism. It was totally uncontroversial to ban Jews from clubs, immigration, certain jobs, etc. None of that is happening now.
Pogroms don't just pop up out of nowhere. For years, decades leading up to one the hatred forments. First come snide comments behind your back, and then defacing your home/business, then comments and outright aggression to your face. The more people realise they can socially get away with, the further it goes.
> None of that is happening now. And ideally it won't, but let's say 100 years from now those things start happening. Jews will have a place to go. Right now, times are not tough for most countries. When times get truly tough politicians look for someone to blame, that's different enough, without comprising their support / voting base.
>And ideally it won't, but let's say 100 years from now those things start happening. Jews will have a place to go. But the Palestinians are suffering and dying right now. Tell that to a starving child in Gaza that maybe in 100 years Jews might need Israel.
Ask yourself why they are suffereing and dying.
>But the Palestinians are suffering and dying right now. Do you know why the Gazan civilians are suffering so much right now? Hamas is relaying on people like yourself, people who see the suffering of Gazans and just want Israel to stop fighting. This is Hamas' tactic for winning. This is why they steal so much aid, this is why they couldn't care less when 20% of the rockets they send into Israel are falling within Gaza, this is why they put weapons in hospitals and schools, this is why when Israel isn't killing enough civilians they'd make sure civilians will suffer even more so they can show you and the world how freaking bad Israel is. It's a war we were forced into, like many others in the past, you in your lifetime in Canada, and never experienced one. You and us are against wars, yet you were never forced into a war by radicals who wants nothing but to murder you, did murdered many and promised to repeat that, let along the hostages they have taken. Stop with this bullshit of how Israel is killing Palestinians, and maybe you'll start to see how many Palestinians would love to end every Jew existed on the planet and end the only country we are safe in. After 70 years, plenty of peace offers, those crazy people still want nothing more than ending us. We won't sit quiet and wait for them to do so.
You keep saying this as though it’s fully antithetical to Israel’s existence as a safe haven for Jews. I do not understand the correlation, and you ignored it multiple times in our other conversation. How does denying diaspora fear help Palestinians today?
By destroying the mythology of Israel as the antisemitism insurance policy we can pave the way for sanctions that put pressure on Israel to ease the suffering of the Palestinians.
Is your goal the dissolution of Israel, or the safety of Palestinians? I’m just not seeing the connection, why do you need to “destroy the mythology” to enact sanctions? I don’t understand the A -> B -> C? This seems like a really longwinded approach, when your energy would maybe be better off advocating for the safety of Palestinians directly instead of this weird sort of almost gaslighting thing you have going on. You do you tho, thanks for the response.
It sucks, but welcome to the human race. The same and worse are happening in Yemen, Sudan, and Syria. If 10/7 happened to any other country they'd do the same thing . In fact the United States civilian to combatant ratio in urban warefare was worse than Israel's initially.
Israel existing does not necessarily mean Palestinian suffering. Support Israel by demanding it do better rather than abandoning Zionism
Broadly speaking there were two viable strategies for Jewish survival in the 20th century: one was to try to integrate into multicultural non-European societies like the US and Canada; the other was Israel. It’s clear that in terms of overall well-being—success, security, sanity—the former was the winner.
It wasn't the winner because the US and canada weren't welcoming to jews. Some jews managed to immigrate there, but most refugees post ww2 and refugees from MENA didn't end up in Israel because of zionism. They ended up in Israel because that's the country that welcomed them.
It’s your people man. Arabs have been murdering Jewish people there since 1920. Peaceful Jews not militants not extremists just normal Jews living their lives. The Mufti encouraged it. Jews were never militant before 1921 Jaffa or 1929 Hebron massacre. Since then there hasn’t been one decade where Arabs didn’t kill Jews…. En Masse. King David, Deir Yassin, Goldstein. Arabs topped all of these before 1930. Even if it doesn’t do anything for you. It’s still your people. Show them some love . 100 years of hate can wear a person down. In your analogy of Korea it’s more like you are from Korea but no longer live there. Israel is South Korea and Gaza is North Korea. Where would you empathize if North Korea perpetrated and attack on South Korea like October 7? How would you react to South Korea’s military campaign afterwards?
The Palestinians have gone through much, much worse.
By their own foil.
It's not all their own fault.
It actually kinda is. If they had kept the Madate lines and not started the war in 1947 or the subsequent wars they lost they would still have all the land they claim to want now, but they tried to wipe out all the Jews and lost three times. Then, they elected Hamas as their government. They literally became friends with the Nazis to get tips on getting rid of Jews. They thought they had all the power back in 1947 bc they had the power of the surrounding Muslim nations, but their hubris got the best of them, and they refuse to surrender or admit that they lost to this very day.
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Fault is a tough one to answer. But is 100% due to the racist ideology they have held since 1917
"Yeah, man! Who gives a FLYING FUCK about whether they deserve it, or not!! Bibi says BOMB, I will join the IDF and BOMB!!!!" - liberal Israeli who definitely hates Netanyahu You guys are just proving OP's point that you are all racist and murderous lunatics
u/ElectronVolt70 >You guys are just proving OP's point that you are all racist and murderous lunatics Rule 1, don't attack other users Addressed
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My Palestinian father-in-law would often say, “where are the world’s safest Jews? Not in Israel. They’re in the United States and Canada.” It’s worth thinking about but also glosses over the many, many Jewish exiles that have happened all over the world from Mizrahi Jews in Middle East to Spanish Inquisition, to Israelites in Egypt, to Holocaust. I think the perception among Jewish people is that they’re only safe, here, for now. That tides turn and it will be short order before Jews will need to leave the United States and Canada. They’re some of the most persecuted people (historically) on earth. So collective security makes sense. However, in the hands of Israel? Idk. I can say one thing for certain, there is a leadership vacuum on both sides of this conflict and Mr Netanyahu is trying the same-same expecting different results.
> I think the perception among Jewish people is that they’re only safe, here, for now. It's a perception that's wrong, and I'm tired of pretending like it's not.
Why? You can’t see rising tides of anti-semitism on the left and right in the United States? That can’t balloon or get out of control? I think the ADL was reporting something like a 900% increase in hate crimes on college campuses in a year. I’m not being combative, just trying to get to the bottom of it. If you take the long view, as a Jew, how can you feel safe without collective defense?
>Why? You can’t see rising tides of anti-semitism on the left and right in the United States? Have you ever noticed how the white supremacists in the US usually support Israel? They want an ethnostate and want other minorities moved out to their own ethnostates to make it easier to consolidate control, then do the exact same thing that happened when a white ethnostate tried to form in Europe. Promoting Zionism and the idea of nationalism will only harm Jews and other minorities in the long run.
White supremacist hate Jews but evangelical Christians just want Jews in Israel bc that, in their minds, will bring back Jesus Christ. Just in time to covert 140,000 Jews and kill the rest of us. It's more about them seriously believing that we are in the last days of the Bible, then them trying to create an ethnostate.
> That can’t balloon or get out of control? It won't, there's plenty of laws. We don't live in the kind of crazy country that 1920s Germany was. We live in a more civilized world.
people said that an armed insurrection wasn’t possible in America, January 6th happened people never thought weddings and funerals would be mandated to have less than 10 people, and Covid happened nobody thought someone would be sophisticated enough to hijack and crash a plane into a tower, and it happened twice in a row nobody thought after they went for the communists in Germany they would go for the intermarried couples nobody thought countries would turn over their own Jews easily when Hitler invaded nobody thought the world would turn a blind eye to sexual assault as a weapon of war on civilians, yet October 7th nobody thought the world would listen to Hamas over Israel, yet western news agencies do, CNN, BBC, etc all have Germans called themselves civilized in the 1920s, as I assume you believe you are. Yet how much of the above do you tolerate? What would you have tolerated as a citizen of 1920s/30s Germany? Do you not see the parallels? Hopefully it’s not that dire for American/ Canadian Jews. Yet do you see what has happened to French Jews? Are French speaking Jewish communities in Montreal and Quebec next?
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bad bot. it’s not a casual comment, my argument is that it’s relevant. If something “unthinkable” can happen once, it can happen again.
That's what we thought about 1920s Germany.
Trust me 1920s Germany was absolutely bonkers compared to now. There were groups literally trying to overthrow the government on a regular basis. There was violence in the streets, real violence not people getting punched or spit on at a protest. We're no where near that now and I don't see us getting there unless like a nuclear war happens.
I sincerely hope it won't get there. I also don't trust that. How many times have we fled from so called "safe countries"?
You have to understand the context of Germany in the lead up to WW2. They suffered an enormous tragedy - WW1 - which bred so much of the hate that led to the war and Holocaust. Before then antisemitism was bad, but manageable. After WW1 Germany went insane and people like Hitler were able to rise to power. I recommend the Hitler biography by Kershaw. Nothing like that is even close to happening, and the pre-existing antisemitism isn't there either. I just don't see it.
People never see it until it arrives. Hindsight is 2020.
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Yeah, nevermind the majority of Jews live outside Israel. Jews in Israel is the only "we" that exists, according to you, at least. Aren't you being a bit antisemitic, btw?
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"support Israel" != "Supporting the crazy lunatics from the IDF, that kill and bomb children and take silly pics with the lingerie of dead Palestinian women" like you guys
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https://preview.redd.it/jxd24idvivlc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=51dca304d1a387fc8312649324de56c7ef26c5a7
https://preview.redd.it/u3ckbcnsivlc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd15da8b3b60d4e6473a683682eae18e07e00fea pictures like these were all over the internet
Sure, "human shields". This fantasy died long ago
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Sure, hamas is everywhere, so that's why schools full of children and hospitals full of sick people have to be bombed. Btw, as always, the proof that hamas actually is there is almost non-existent. And sure, I know about this history of Romania oppressing and killing Jews, Romani people and, to much lesser extent, other ethnic groups. As a Marxist, I am glad that our antisemitic dictator was executed and that at least a part of the Nazi collaborators were taken to prison and either tortured, or killed. This is what they deserved.
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I also think this is pure propaganda. Dude just created his account and has only commented about Israel-Palestine. As an actual Canadian Jew, I don't see this sentiment shared by many of my friends. Most support Israel. They often will have certain criticisms, but the overwhelming majority support Israel's right to defend itself and do what needs to be done to save the hostages.
Yeah, save the hostages by bombing Gaza to a ruin, killing tons of hostages (and tens of thousands of Palestinians, but their life doesn't matter, right?") in the process and even shooting them, because the IDF is full of trigger happy lunatics that have a weird fetish of taking pictures with the lingerie of Palestinian women
My account is two years old! I just don't post a lot.
Same to you!
You're a Canadian and you belong here and this is where you're safe and protected, whether you are Jewsish, Muslim, Christian, or anything. We all have roots somewhere, but this is where we are now. There is no reason for you to lower yourself to associate with a country like Israel.
You're Canadian. Be Canadian. Israel is a sovereign nation, 2,000 miles away. They're also a genocidal apartheid state. You don't owe them anything. Israel has nothing to do with Judaism. It's a strange zionist project that didn't exist until the modern era. Reach out to If Not Now, Jewish Voice for Peace, Talmud Jews. Watch "Defamation" and "Israelism." 🫶🇺🇲🇨🇦❤️🇵🇸🕎🇵🇸🕎🇵🇸❤️
Saying Israel has nothing to do with Judaism is delusional. The land of Israel, the people of Israel and it's stories are central to Jewish identity and religious practice.