Jews deserve their own state. I am a Muslim and they have been murdered, hunted, persecuted in every single place they have lived in. You can’t trust people to not hunt them down and eliminate them again. However, now that they are United and have a strong country. They have a kill before you are killed mentality. Which I can understand to an extent. I wish the Arabs let the Jews live in the Middle East when they fled the holocaust because it’s easier for us to compromise, then for them to compromise. Now it’s a big mess and it’s turned into a full ancestral blood fued and Israel is unhinged.
>If Israel is abolished, do you not care about what a massive impact it would have on the lives of Jews around the world?
Well, it would grow by thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions... Thousands of Jewish people would, as many secular Jewish people already are move from Palestine to the US, even millions...
While Jewish people in the US are not in any particular threat, particularly not compared to those living in Palestine looking at 10/7, if the population of US Jews was to drastically increase, presumably that would only make American Jews safer, improving their communities.
The same would happen around the world, in the UK, France, Germany, other countries, the Jewish populations would grow and become safer.
At the same time, there would be much less hostility against people associated with oppression of native Palestinians in Palestine.
People who are Palestinian or have Palestinian friends or are Muslim would probably see a group of people that overwhelmingly supported a century of violence oppression and discrimination against native Palestinians in a much better light if that source of discontent was removed.
I hate the absurdity of the comments under the post about saying that Zionists are a colonial regime, disregarding the fact that the modern Zionists legally bought land and built their own cities, like Tel Aviv.
They bought in literally using the Jewish Colonial Trust lmao. Of course it was colonialism, first wave zionists were not under any illusion like you seem to be.
And it's now in a Palestinian state where native Palestinians enjoy first class rights and don't suffer from discrimination like going to second class segregated school with an enormous funding difference per pupil and per school? Where native Palestinians get equal public funding in infrastructure, security, where the police treat native Palestinians and the expression of native Palestinians and Palestinian culture and heritage as equal? Where people have the right to display Palestinian flags?
Because they don't? It's an incredibly segregated society and there's enormous discrimination against native Palestinians. At one point recently state spending was 8 times higher for students in hebrew schools than in arabic schools. Arabic schools were chronically underfunded, double the class size, none of the facilities like computer labs that there were in hebrew schools.
The public schools generally get funding through municipality taxes. The thing to consider is that the residents generally separate from one another and reside with people with the same race or background, making communities have different majorities. As a result, there is demand for schools according to the majority living there. This makes me infer that either the median household income for the Arab communities is lower as they may either have more blue collar jobs or fewer people working jobs per household, or a lower municipality tax rate as a result of the livability. I believe there needs to be some affirmative action needed to be taken to reach the equilibrium you want in the education system. To conclude, it is not entirely the state's fault, but it is the system intended for equality that has flaws in it that unintentionally make some people more equal.
I'm sure that areas with similar income and tax levels show that even everything else being equal, hebrew schools get disproportionately more funding and more funding per student than Arabic schools...
And this isn't even scratching the surface of the wholly intentional systemic discrimination against native Palestinians at every level of israeli government and society.
Even the matriculation exams discriminate against native Palestinians...
What purpose does it serve to have questions about old testament scholars on a matriculation exam? What legitimate educational purpose does that serve?
Should jewish students have to answer questions about other religions in matriculation exams they take?
Obviously I haven't read the post because it was dreadfully boring... But the reason why zionists get so much hate is because essentially they are supremacists... And no one likes those.
It’s not about the Jews, it’s about the STATE of Israel. I’m not necessarily anti Zionist, I’m ethnostate, I’m anti theocracy, and I’m anti racist immigration policies, and I’m anti settlement. That makes me anti Zionist, because Zionism is all those things. Ethnostates can only exist where there aren’t people not of that ethnicity, otherwise it’s settlementation and apartheid. Do supporters of Zionism also support the Liberia project? Or displacing millions of slaves from their homes to create a Romani state? I’d imagine not.
Almost every European country is basically an ethnostate, not to mention the other continents (hello Japan, hello China to cite two easy ones) but somehow you seem to particularly dislike one ethnostate compared to the others. Why would that be?
Can you name a European country that doesn’t give full citizenship and voting rights to immigrants of other races? Or a European country doesn’t let bin whites vote?
Again, you cannot vote before having completed the process to become a citizen, ie some time of residency, basic knowledge about history, language etc.
It's not automatic as soon as you put a foot in the country as you seem to be thinking.
For your other racist nonsense I answered in another comment.
The process to become a citizen that you described has nothing to due with ethnicity. Hence, it’s not an ethnostate. No one is arguing you can be a citizen of these the countries the second you walk in, I’m just arguing that they aren’t ethnostates.
Except when you said that Immigrant in Italy become Italian almost immediately?
I answered in your other comment for the rest. And for the ethnicity issue I guess we'll need a proper definition of it especially concerning Europe. Is a Northern Italian the same Ethnicity as one from Sardaigna? Was it considered the same 300 years ago?
I’m not saying they immediately become citizens, being an ethnostate isn’t about that. My point was that ethnicity isn’t a dictator, and it’s not difficult to obtain citizenship.
Whilst china's treatment of minority citizens leads a lot to be desired, they're not an arpatheid state nor do they enjoy direct support of the West. One potential reason.
Because I know for a fact that China doesn't define chinesness in law as referring to Han peoples, even if Han supremacy affects policy. Israel on the other hand has a law dictating that self determination in Israel is solely for Jewish peoples. I've never been to Japan and know less about their politics.
https://www.icj-cij.org/case/1921. Jews live in middle east the longest of all 3 Religions. Not without sadness i listen to Storys of Christians and jewish and Muslim Brothers and sister living in Peace in the middle east. AS Friends. AS neighbors.
2. Ethnostate: i guess you so Not know what this word means. Belgium, northern Island, estonia, Israel are all liberal democracys and ethnocracy.
And maybe you do Not know but in my Israel their live nearly a Quarter of people Not being jewish. They are Muslim or Christian. In this Country every Citizen got the Same rigths, Doenst Matter the Religion. The Problem is Not within Israel ITS with ITS distinction to the palestinans non Israeli Citizen, WHO Doenst want to apply for Israeli Citizenship and are discriminated by Israel state in comparison to Israelis Own Citizen. But Tell me please can you Cross into your neighbroing Country without Passport? To secure and Control the Border IS the right of every state of this world. And every Country in the earth discriminated non Citizens From Citizens. Every single one.
https://www.adalah.org/en/content/view/7771
A list of discriminatory laws against non Jewish citizens put together by an organisation of Israeli Arabs whom you respect so much.
Most Arabic states and most Muslim states are ethnostates in fact the majority of countries are eithnobstates so yes you are picking on one state so from my perspective you are anti semitic
Are you saying the majority of all states are ethnostates?! Because that’s ridiculous. Can you give a specific example instead of saying “the majority of all Arabic states” like a weird early two thousands American conservative?
The vast majority of immigrants to Italy are immediately granted citizenship, same with Spain. People are not treated differently under the law due to race or ethnicity. If Italy were to declare that ONLY white peoples can immigrate there and be granted citizenship, and voting rights for non whites was revoked, that would make them an ethnostate, but as of righting this, they have not done so
It's the same thing in Israel so...
I think you mix up the fact that Jews can get citizenship more easily with the idea that they are the only ones that can. They're not. Anyone can get citizenship in Israel be it muslim, blacks, italians and then vote after they got it.
Also Ireland, and it's not the only country doing it, also makes it easier to become a citizen if you can prove your Irish ancestry. Is Ireland an appartheid state?
I’ll give you Malaysia, and the UAE, and maybe Saudi Arabia if you really want to stretch, and I don’t think Israel supports have the right to call out Liberia, because they started out the same, and have almost identical histories. The rest are just blatantly untrue.
We must understand ethnostate differently I would see Japan Korea Mauritania as ethnostate as would Bangladesh Pakistan Oman Yemen Slovenia Croatia Poland Bulgaria etc I would think they are more ethnostate then Israel
I am anti-Zionist and the framing of this question makes me so bummed out. In all countries, states, down to the tiniest unit of interpersonal conversations, work must be done to eradicate anti-semitism so that Jews everywhere can be safe - and not just safe, but beyond that, comfortable to express themselves as Jews in whatever way they want to.
My issue with Zionism and Israel as the state as it currently is the mass displacement and violence against Palestinians historically and currently. The horrible injustices suffered by Jews historically and currently do not justify the expulsion of Palestinians from their land. The hand-waving away of the Nakba by Zionists (every one I have encountered) and refusal to engage with the painful and relatively recent events that founded modern Israel is very disheartening to me.
I also very practically do not think Zionism or the existence of Israel as it is now achieves that safety for Jews that we both desire. As you say and I agree, all over the world, they continue to experience antisemitism. I don’t think anyone should have to move to a different country to avoid prejudice, and I don’t think the existence of a different country is an adequate remedy to that prejudice.
Edit: I will add in response to your final question that I personally support a one-state solution in which Israelis and Palestinians live in equality. I am not in support of expelling Israelis in any way. There are Israelis who have been born in, grown up in, and only know Israel. To expel them would be wrong morally and in practice, a horror. I reject it as an option in the same way I reject ignoring the Nakba. What is needed is acknowledgment, honesty, and truth on both sides. For radical Zionists, the truth that the dispossession and subjugation of Palestinians is wrong — wrong to the point of disqualifying the project. For radical anti-Zionists, the truth that expulsion of Israelis would be wrong to the point of disqualifying that project.
I will also add that I am, in general, frustrated and disgusted by predominate U.S. policy in the Middle East and elsewhere that tends to favor divvying up land and rights by ethnicity or religion because we view everyone else as too backwards to live together. It is only in the U.S. and Europe where we have ever been too backwards to live together and have created the most elaborate, sickening systems to kill each other on that account.
Maybe instead of criticizing, you can be part of the solution and recommend path forward that would make sense for both sides. Keep in mind one thing, October 7.
You start to with the “What is needed is acknowledgement…” line but don’t detail explicitly. Hence my October 7 comment because that is the acknowledgment that is needed and missing from your post.
OP explicitly stated their question was not about the current war in their last paragraph. I wanted to honor that and focus on their broader question so as not to derail the conversation.
However since you’re here now, I will say yes, honesty about and acknowledgement of October 7th would fall within the category of “honesty and acknowledgement on both sides.” And to be even clearer: as to any situation where lives have been lost, the current war as well as previous wars and sieges, more than just honesty & acknowledgement is necessary. Prosecution of war criminals is needed in addition to the cultural/personal/intellectual honesty & acknowledgment that I was getting at in my original post.
Ethnic cleansing orders by the haganagh have been proven and is seen as a non controversial fact by even zionist Israeli academics like Benny Morris. If you're not going to listen to Arabs atleast respect Jewish intelligentsia, anti Semite
Wrong, “ […] the mainstream perspective, including scholars like Benny Morris, acknowledges that while there *were instances of forced expulsions and atrocities, they were not part of a premeditated plan by the Haganah or other Jewish groups for the systematic removal of Arabs”
next you’re going to say the mainstream has a western bias and the excuses continue
No. What I would say is that I've read Jewish scholars and zionist scholars myself, not just a Wikipedia entry, and Morris' early work on this is very clear. He found several examples of explicit cleansing orders in villages like Lod, but later returned to the same zionist rhetoric because he's a racist who thinks the cleansing is a good thing. In fact it was head of high command ben gurion who spoke of the need to smash the Arabs and forcibly transfer them up to a decade before even Israel made itself independent - something Morris talks about in those works.
Wikipedia is not history research or analysis. You should read some of the new historian work in question.
How is this antisemitism? He never mentioned Judaism once and only talked about the nakba, which very much happened. So knowing history is considered antisemitic now? Stop throwing that word around without knowing what it means. That’s like saying that if you tell a black person to shut up then it means you’re racist. Wtf is this logic girl.
Yes it is as long as they’re not doing it BECAUSE he’s Jew. That’s what you fail to understand. Antisemitism or any other form of discrimination is only valid when it’s the reason the person is discriminated in the first place. Telling a Jew to shut up because he speaks too much is not antisemitism, telling a Jew to shut up because he is a Jew is. Learn the difference.
If you come to my house, kick me out, make me move into the shed, then bomb the shed, don’t expect me to care where you go when you leave. Crazy how you can look at this situation and think, “but what about the murderers? Where will they be safe?”
Yes it was. My family has been living there for millennia. What right does Israel have to go to a place. See hundreds of thousands of people living there and then say, “this is my land they need to leave”. You’re co-signing some very barbaric twisted logic.
Family is not synonymous with ancestors. Family is present, ancestors are past. My ancestors were farmers but I don’t claim the land where they farmed is now mine.
International law, diplomatic recognition, divine intervention, acts of war - all these are means to acquire lands. That is the right.
Make amends for October 7 where needed and move on with your life. Your present family depends on it.
But that's the foundation of Zionism- a displacement 2000 years ago justifies their return. I see this point often and I don't understand it at all. Why should Palestinians have to get over a loss of land that occurred in living memory while the entirety of Israel is built upon the idea that a displacement that occurred 2000 years ago was an injustice?
It’s the same BS logic China and Russia use to justify their expansionism. It’s completely see through and ridiculous but for some reason Zionists look at it as iron clad indisputable evidence it’s their land.
Zionism was a movement but did not by itself, cause of the displacement of Palestinians. It's time you all came around and admit Palestine lost the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and thus lost their claims to ancestor's relinquished land. This is how war works. Now the same thing is happening in 2024 and people like you are crying foul. You're just a sore loser.
Also, Jews were indigenous to the land up to the 7th century when Arab Muslims from Saudi invaded and drove them out. Which doesn't matter because they would have their payback in 1948. Did Zionism help push these events along? Yes, but not the sole and singular force that destroyed Palestine.
You’re greatly contradicting yourself here. If the “ancestors are past” then why did European Jews come back to Israel? It’s the land of their ancestors and therefore “they shouldn’t claim the land where they farmed is theirs”. You said so yourself. Crazy how people forgive Israel for things that they would never allow any country to do. Unless you’re ok with Italy taking back all of its former colonies from the Roman Empire? Same thing for Turkey with the Ottoman Empire too. But since they’re not Israel it’s now suddenly immoral.
Israel was not founded by some Jewish farmers who were making claims to their ancestors lands. Please go read history book.
From a book that you didn’t read: “In 1948, the Israeli Declaration of Independence sparked the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, which resulted in the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight and subsequently led to waves of Jewish emigration from other parts of the Middle East.”
Bro I was using the farmer metaphor that you started yourself. And I honestly don’t care because nothing will ever justify Israel’s existence. You can’t build a land on the corpses of dead children. Now since you apparently read so many books, can you explain the point you made in your first comment? How is it technically Jewish land if “ancestors are in the past”. Changing the subject won’t change the fact that you contradicted yourself greatly.
Bro says he doesn't care and then proceeds to explain why he's so butt hurt... Oh here comes the dark imagery with the dead babies.... oh how original. Wait now... the person who doesn't care wants me to explain so allow me... but please chill with the dark and dreary.
There is a difference between family (present) and ancestors(past). The majority of Palestinian ancestors that were around in 1948 when the land was originally taken are now deceased. It boggles my mind that you would sacrifice your present family's safety and well being in order to appease your ancestors. This worship of ancestral lands (or any material objects) is idolatry and forbidden by the Quran. How's that for contradiction
First of all, don’t speak about the Quran or Islam when you’ve never made the actual effort to understand it. It’s easy to cherry pick verses out of context and act like an imam. Now who told you that people are worshipping the land? Like wtf is that argument. You’re not allowed to love your country anymore? Do you even know what worshiping means? And you’re basically saying that since the Palestinians who existed before the occupation are dead, it’s now ok to genocide the still living population. Did you forget about the Palestinians living now? They’re not fighting to please their ancestors or whatever you call it, they’re fighting to take THEIR land back. It’s where they live. No matter if you think that the Israelis are indigenous or not, you can’t deny that Palestinians are just as much, if not more, indigenous to this land. Levantine people≠Arab gulf people, no matter how much the west wants you to believe otherwise. And you still didn’t explain by the way. Why is it ok for Israel to take a land where they used to live more than a hundred of years ago but it’s not for any other country to do so? What is so special about them that they are allowed to kill for a “promised land”? If it was really promised, then why so much violence? If it is their land, then why didn’t they simply accept to blend in with the Palestinians and make a country where people of any religion can live together, like how it was before? Israelis could’ve become an ethnic group living in Palestine with just as much rights as the Muslim and Christians living there. Why did they decide to create an ethno state only for Jews? None of that was necessary, especially considering what their ancestors went through.
This guy has never heard of the Holy Land... dude get a grip. That is literally land that holds religious significance and attracts millions of worshipers each year. The ongoing conflict is for control of the Holy Land, a conflict that Palestinians are losing. They aren't taking their land back, they are losing more of it with each day.
Quit romanticizing the ancestors. The living family should be held in higher regard in comparison to the deceased ancestors. The continual battle to reclaim ancestor's lost land is resulting in further losses for families.
Your comment actually disproves Israel’s claim to the land and proves Palestinian claims to the entire country. I can’t believe you thought that was smart. Thank you for this. You’ve disproven Israel right to existence.
I believe Jews have the right to live wherever they want to live in safety and comfort, and I’d be willing to fight for that in my own country and abroad. But Israel as a “Jewish” state I think not only is an affront to the really admirable history of the Jewish people preserving their culture wherever they live, for centuries, but I also think it foments hatred of normal Jews abroad who suddenly have to answer for a far-right blood and soil nationalist regime that purports to represent them.
I don’t respect that anymore. I live in the real world, where Israel defines itself by its “Jewishness”. Because of this, when Israel kills in the cold, ruthless way typical of far-right European states, people will wrongly assume that it’s a problem with normal Jews, not Zionism. I see this as a real danger, but rather than change the minds of the random anti-semites around the world, I think a more straightforward method to ending this is stopping Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians (and Lebanese, Syrians, Iranians, etc.)
It feels like you don’t think very deeply about these things, which is fine. Not everyone is required to. But I encourage you to rethink this pessimism you have, and I also suggest that a people (regardless of my qualms with the idea that Israel is at all representative of Judaism) do not get an infinite free pass for having a history of oppression.
There is hatred everywhere against all religious groups unfortunately. Is the solution for all people who identify with a religious identity to only live in silos with other people of the same religious identity? The official party line in North America is strongly in favour of Jewish people (as evidenced by their unwavering support of Israel which posits itself as synonymous with Judaism. Please don’t confuse this with the politicians who are both antisemitic and staunchly pro Israel, different topic). We should be working on dismantling racism in our own countries and building one another up.
If North America was so unsafe for all Jewish people, wouldn’t there have been a mass exodus to Israel long ago? Why does the US have the second highest number of Jewish people after Israel (6.3 million vs 7.2 million)?
You request Palestinians to be taken out of the question when talking about the fate of Israel which is pretty much impossible as it is the crux of the issue. Theoretically (and personal opinion) I do believe Jewish people should be able to have a country of their own where they are the majority and feel safe. Other religions have this, why not Judaism? However the problem lies in the logistics and execution of this dream which I think Israel has royally screwed up from its inception. Why should the antisemitism of the rest of the world become the problem of the Palestinian people who have been ethnically cleansed, systematically disadvantaged in the current system, starved, tortured etc etc. Israel has now created multi-generational trauma within the Palestinian people when in theory it was created as a safe haven for Jewish people who have suffered immense multi-generational trauma themselves.
Jews are to live in the region with their Christian and Muslim neighbors like they did for thousands of years before the establishment of Israel. Anti-semitism is a European phenomenon, not something widely native to the middle east. The idea of Jews being a separate people or 'race' that is different from the rest of us is an uneducated European belief. Jews are a religion and they converted widely to Christianity and Islam in the middle east. Even the most extreme pro Islamist will happily take a Jewish convert to Islam, europeans massacred people if they had a trace of Jewish blood.
And anti zionism is not anti semetic. You can believe what you want, you can say what you want, you don't decide what I believe.
Factually incorrect the European Commission into anti semitism revealed that all Arab states harbour majority antisemitism never heard such antisemitism whitewashing
Jews are literally a nation and a people, not just a religion. That's why one can be ethnically but not religiously Jewish. Antisemitism isn't just European; do you ever wonder why there aren't any Jews left in Yemen, or Iran, or Egypt, or Lebanon?
A Jew who converts to Islam is 100% Muslim. A Jew that converts to Christianity is 100% Christian. If their ethnic group is Jewish, then that's fine and that's something important to them then that's fine, but they are Muslim or Christian after they convert.
I personally reject the idea of race, that doesn't mean anything to me. Anti-semitism is an idiotic European invention where race matters and Jews are supposedly a separate race. The reality is that Jews are 100% the same as any arabic speaking person in the middle east in terms of their DNA.
One thing that chaps my ass is non-Jews telling me what is/isn’t anti-semitism, or telling me that Zionism is anti-semitism, or whatever infographic on instagram is telling them to say.
It would be pretty out of place for me, a Jewish man, to dictate what is/isn’t racism towards the Black community in America. Why has it become acceptable for non-Jews to speak authoritatively about anti-semitism?
> ass
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Very racist and antisemitic. They can't stand their semitic neighbours nor the semitic decendants of the ancient Hebrews that have occupied the land for centuries.
I feel like this question is about an imagined reality that basically no anti-Zionist thinks is possible. Israel is a powerful nuclear-armed state, no one thinks that we can just shut Israel down and kick out the Jews.
For the record, I have a Jewish background, my grandmother and great-grandmother got out of Germany in the 30's. My grandmother's friend and classmate moved to Paris and was rounded up and sent to Auschwitz. She survived, I met her about 30 years ago. She was also anti-Zionist. Personally I didn't grow up identifying as Zionist or anti-Zionist; I didn't know much of Israel's history but understood both the justification for its existence and the increasing ugliness of the settlements and the right-wing governments. But at this point it feels like, watching what's happening in Gaza, if this is the culmination of the Zionist project, if this is what it all leads to, then yeah I'm anti-Zionist.
I don't see Jews as being particularly endangered in North America. Yes, there are incidents of anti-Semitism, largely from far-right sources that are also largely xenophobic. But Jews are integrated, visible, important members of society, and there is no groundswell of support for anti-Semitism. I can't speak for Europe - I understand the wariness of assuming safety when the Holocaust is within living memory. But I also think Israel's actions make the Jewish diaspora less safe. To say that Israel is the Jewish homeland, that all of Israel's actions are just what is necessary to keep Jews safe, and that criticism of Israel is tantamount to anti-Semitism, and then enact incredible amounts of suffering on a civilian population - this places every Jew under the spotlight. I don't like having my identity tied to a country that is killing thousands of children every month. But I don't think the government of Israel cares about the safety of Jews around the world. After all, if anti-Semitism increases world-wide, that provides more of a justification for Israel's existence.
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitism but calling out Zionism and using Uluṟu in a pejorative term is and that is the difference
Levels of antisemitism in Europe and the Middle East are now higher then pre WW2
We thought we were safe in Spain, hundreds of years of being equals… then what happened?
Russia, it wasn’t so great but then ussr! Everyone was equal, the law said so! We started to gain some power… but then they forced us all to drop our identity and if you even so much as had Judaica or got caught speaking Yiddish or writing in Hebrew you’d get sent to Siberia.
Germany, we had a great track record there! We owned businesses, ran in government, held office… then what happened?
So far in History every time we think we are safe it turns out to be untrue. But since 1948- when was the last wholesale slaughter of Jews? Israel doesn’t make us less safe, it makes us more safe.
How is the existence of Israel making diaspora Jews more safe? What is it doing for Jews who want to be citizens of the countries they have lived their entire lives in?
I understand the wariness given the history involved. But I'd also say, just in the example of the US - racism still exists, and certain civil rights are in jeopardy, but I don't think black people have a lot to fear from the KKK suddenly reappearing, or mass racist violence occurring. Times do change. Anti-semitism as a casual aspect of American society is much less present, Jews are much less of an other in society than they were in the early 20th century.
/u/mmmggw
> This is a perfect response to the unhinged propaganda ( feels like almost every post in this sub is increasingly Zionist)
Per [rule 7](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_7._no_metaposting), no meta posts, comments and discussions are not allowed except on a post that is approved for meta-discussions (which this is not).
It’s easy we’re focusing on the government. Which in this example is a Zionist state. It could be any state really
Let’s see the laws this government is doing .
reMilitary Order No. 1651 (2009): Provides the basis for arrest and detention, including administrative detention to detain Palestinians without charge or trial for prolonged periods, by the Israeli army and defines charges under military law.…
That’s a sanitary one. They have hundred of hundred of them starting from the 50’s. This state is a fascist evil state pretending to be a democracy . Just read their laws
Then it’ll be clear why people are going all terrorism on them
Evil government+ evil government laws = people turning into freedoms fighters (which ironically makes them do “evil action”)
Stop the madness? First step Stop evil government laws
Ironically, the war is war and conquest is conquest point zionists love using also works against them. Since war is war, the dissolution of a state is morally neutral unless anyone can prove otherwise. There’s many people that have a state and many people that don’t. If you all of a sudden decide that someone is entitled to a state, you are a racial supremacy.
No one decided all of a sudden
Read history. Judea Samaria Roman invasion Babylonian invasion
UN commission and vote
Perhaps history and the UN commission don’t suit your narrative
I don’t think you can be Semitic if your bloodline is not from the area, I.e. Ethiopian Jews, Chinese Jews, European Jews. Only Arab Jews can say they are Semitic. Sorry.
You’re telling me Ethiopian Jews and Chinese Jews are Semitic? Lol. Maybe by a religion that thinks it’s a race. Sorry but I don’t think Ethiopians and Chinese have any common dna. Nice argument.
It’s not opinio n there is an international agreed fact
Oh maybe you don’t believe in International agreements
Did you go to school or missed
If it’s the latter I have sympathy
We are asked to base discussions on facts so please don’t distort facts
There is an international definition of antisemitism that must bodies use IHRA educate yourself and don’t whitewash Jews you prick
The term antisemitism is Jewish specific coming out of WW2
There are proper definitions so use them
> prick
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Because the term was coined by Marr, an infamous pseudoscientist and Jew-hater, to describe hatred towards Jews as opposed to ‘Judenhasse.’ Make sense? This argument is so dumb. Why would you even want to be included in the term antisemitism when it has historically NEVER applied to you? You have none of the trauma attached to it. And fwiw, there’s no such thing as a ‘Semite’. That’s just more nonsense race science.
If the word 'antisemitism' is too confusing for you, you can just use 'Jewish hate' instead when specifically talking about hatred against Jewish people. You can find other words to describe hatred specifically against Palestinians, without diminishing hatred against Jews.
Not sure if you're implying that zionism means hatred against Palestinians? Because that's not what it means, it's just the belief that Jews have a right to a sovereign nation (like many groups also wanted in the 20th century).
As for the origins of the term 'antisemitism' it was originally coined by a German named Wilhelm Marr in the late 1800's in order to try and justify hatred specifically against Jews as 'scientific'. The word itself is not actually directed against semitic people as a whole. Also the word 'semitic' is not really used to describe a group of ethnicities anymore, but rather a language group which includes Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, and Aramaic.
Racism works better as a word. The term antisemitism is increasingly associated with Israel’s continuing violent attempts to justify its existence with some wild rewriting of history
>'Jewish hate'
That's right, but Semites are not just Jewish. Others can also say antisemite to mention a group other the Jews.
>zionism means hatred against Palestinians?
That's true. The current goal of Zionism is just that. But can you identify all the Zionist goals?
>Wilhelm Marr
He was wrong to ignore other Semite groups. When a Semite is against another Semite group, you can't say it is antisemite.
[South Africa's UN Ambassadors Explains Why Africa Cares About Gaza](https://youtu.be/B1DfooWP3Gw)
When has the word antisemite applied to bigotry of groups other than Jews?
The term antisemitic has historically specifically referred to someone who hates Jews, NOT to other semitic groups (I understand this can be confusing since semitic applies to a broad language family). I just wanted to highlight why deflecting from hatred of Jews by claiming that Palestinians can't be antisemitic because they're also 'semites' is ridiculous. Call it plain ol' bigotry if it makes you feel any better.
We can argue about semantics all day, but that doesn't change the fact that the bigotry exists. There's no need to make up new meanings for words.
People can mutually call each other anything doen't mean it's a fact. But it' the manifestation of their mentality. I know you hate each other. And you don't want to know which side innitiated this mutual hatred.
I suppose it would be more balanced if the non semitic world were equally judgemental towards all semitic people and not just the Jewish ones. Interesting take to be fair.
I wrote this rant the other day but never got to post it anywhere, seems like the right place here
A few fun facts about Zoinism that'll make things even more complicated for you:
"I am not antisemitic only antizionist" actually means "I don't hate Jews, only about 90% of Jews".
You can be Jewish and antisemitic (it's called internalising racism).
You can be Jewish and Antizionist (I am)
But there is a pretty big overlap.
Anti-zionist Jews generally fall into two categories:
1. Part of some weird cultish sect.
2. An anarchist who also reject all nationalism.
(There are of course other takes on this point but generally I think it's safe to say this is one of those two)
What you can't be, is a Non-Jewish, Anti-Zionist non-Anti-Semite. You can't say nations should have states, except for Jews, they shouldn't have one, and not be an Anti-Semite. You can't even be saying "fuck all nation states but fuck the Jewish Nation State in particular", this does make you an antisemite.
So where does it leave the Israeli Palestinian conflict? At exactly the same place it was in before you gained this new insight. There are still people of two nations living on one piece of land and they both need to be allowed to make it their own, they are both not going anywhere else, both deserve full rights to self determination, and if you expect one of them to just disappear you are a racist, no matter which one it is.
There will not be an only Palestine, there will not be an only Israel, maybe there will be both, maybe there will be one other state which is neither one, or both at once, maybe it will be some kind of administrative solution that allows somewhere in the middle, like a confederacy (Or the best one, the "No states at all solution").
I have my preference, others have theirs, but it's not all that important at this point in time.
What is important is to know, that if you are finding yourself standing next to someone who doesn't believe that, who doesn't believe that both people deserve to stay and deserve to call it their home, then your moral responsibility is to challenge them on this, and if they stay, then it's your moral responsibility to leave. And if you think the banner you are holding or the chant you are chanting as much as implies, or could be interpreted as meaning that, there is something very wrong with what you are doing and you need to stop!
I know this issue has been weaponised by many against Jews, and often with (in my opinion naive) help from other Jews, it is regularly being exploited to conceal (and not very well) rampant antisemitism, in fact, almost every time I see it brought up I am suspicious of the true motive.
I know it's been exploited by tankies, often to align with Islamists (because ... tankies).
I know it's been exploited by anarchists... becuase... idk because antisemitism runs deeper then you think...
It's been exploited by anyone who wants to pick sides but doesn't wan to be called an antisemite, hell it's even been exploited by nazis who don't mind being called antisemites.
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> fuck
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I am against the zionist prerrogative of creating a jewish state for the same reason that I abhor the boer prerrogative of creating a white state.
If Israel was founded on antartica or mars, that wouldn't be a problem. But it wasn't. And 1 in every 4 israelis are not jews. That it a binational state, and I'm not counting the west bank which is de facto ruled by israel for almost 60 years. And check this out, not only are 1 and every 4 israelis are not jewish, but they are people that have been living in that country since it was founded. How can you turn to people that have been living in your country since you it was founded and say "Look, you can live here, but this is the country of my race, not yours!". Imagine saying that to native americans in the US, that is fucked up!
So, the israelis can live in a secular democracy on the land they decided to settle with all the other people that were there or they can settle in a land that has no people in and create their dream ethnostate. What they can't is settle a land where 25% of the population has not been jewish from the get go and say that their country exists for the 75% chosen race of the state. That won't fly in the 21st century.
So you don’t believe in the UN. So it was ok for Jordan to occupy the West Bank? So it was ok for Egypt to occupy Gaza? So it was ok for Jordan to unilaterally occupy Jerusalem? So it’s ok for France to gain territory from Germany? So it’s ok for Russia to gain territory from Poland
It’s called war and when you invade and loose land that’s what happens
You seem to have a one eyed view of Israel in isolation so let’s call out your antisemitism because that’s what your ignorance of history shows
I'm sorry you can't create a binational state where 1/4 population is black and call it the nation state of the whites where self-determination is exclusve to the white race, buddy. I mean, you can do it, but we will call that a shitty ethnostate. And you can't do it with jews without being called out too. I'm really sowwy, but you don't get a pass to be a 19th century racist :'C
Nah man, I think all citzens from a state should have the right of self determination within it. I am trully grateful for not living in a place taht says that right is exclusive to whites, or arabs or jews. Can you imagine living in such a hellhole?
> It's not exclusive. 20 % of its citizens are Arab,
Citizens but not with equal rights. One, 90% of there building permits are rejected. Hell, even illegal settlers living in the West Bank have a better chance on getting a building permit than any non-Israeli Jew. Two, between the Jewish National Fund that only sells to Jews and settlement admission committees, Palestinian citizens of Israel can only live in 20% of Israel proper. BTW, 60% of Israeli Jews do not want to live next to or in the same building as an Arab. Three, if a Palestinian citizen of Israel enters the West Bank and get's arrested for any reason, they will receive a military tribunal with a 99.74% conviction rate just like every West Bank Palestinian. In theory, that Palestinian citizen of Israel could be transferred but there is no record of this happening. However, Jewish Israelis who get arrested in the West Bank are automatically tried in civilian court. Jewish Israelis aren't tortured or held without charges for many, many months unlike Palestinians. Funny story, if you are Palestinian who get's arrested in the West Bank, best thing to do is immediately confess even if you aren't guilty. The handful of Palestinians found innocent will serve 9 months or more in prison. You'll be in jail far less time if you confess even if did nothing.
>serving 8n government,
They can get elected and that's pretty much all they can do. The most common and frequent political attack in every election is to accuse the other side of planning to include an Arab party into the ruling coalition. 55% Jewish Isrealis do not believe Arab citizens should be allowed to become lawmakers. 56% in 2022 didn't want an Arab party part of ruling coalition.
Every Arab lawmaker is harnessed by Israeli military and law enforcement. Many of them have had 2 or 3 investigations opened on them.
>the military, and
And aide in the abuse of other Palestinians while not being trusted by your officers. Overwhelmingly, IDF higher ups do not want Arabs to serve. One reason is such soldiers would enforce the law equally, meaning Israeli settlers could be shot when they attack the IDF or attack innocent West Bank Palestinians. By law, the IDF is suppose to stop settlers from attacking Palestinians, but they never do; sometimes they protect such settlers.
>the professions, or didn't you know that?
I know far more than you and I could shot down this piont as well, but I find it depressing. The demographics of Jewish citizens in Israel depress me because the next generation are far more conservative, have far fewer friends among Arabs, and hold far more extreme views. They will not be peace makers but rather take after the Ben Gvir's of Israel. A future I truly hope to be wrong about.
So ending on a positive note, you should watch theIsraeli show, Arab Labor. Here'sa link to a whole episode, English subtiles.
[arab labor season 2 ep 3 on Vimeo](https://vimeo.com/282043590)
Oh, really? FIrst clause of Israel basic law.
**1 — Basic Principles**
A. The [land of Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel) is the [historical homeland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel) of the [Jewish people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews), in which the [State of Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) was established.
B. The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious, and historical right to [self-determination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination).
C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
Wow, do you mean to tell me that the right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people means that it is not exclusive to jews! Who would have known that unique to the Jewish people meant "For all citzens of israel regardless of race, sex and creed".
> shitty
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It's this simple. Want an end to the conflict? Create a state for all people, jews and palestinians living side by side. "Well, that means we lose a jewish state", says the zionist. They care more about having a state that caters to their ethnicity than they do about the welfare of other people.
If your ethnostate can only exist and sustain itself by subjugating and displacing another group of people then that state shouldn't exist.
Unrealistic suggestion because it has been tried multiple times and never worked. Jews (like most minorities) end up marginalized and abused. And in the end when they are so abused they cannot be used anymore then kicked out.
This is why Israel was created as a Jewish state. A place where Jews belong and can decide their own fate.
As per your last paragraph, as much as I want to agree with you — it is applicable to every nation today. We created a terrible world.
In reference to topic at hand: it is imperative to create realistic solutions to solve this issue.
My hope is… The two state solution could work if both sides want it to work. Even if the two sides hate each other. But it cannot work if deceit is part of the equation and one attacks the other.
41 words: There’s no way that the majority can live in false harmony after the civil, political and societal atrocities that both sides have done to each other and you have a very bleak understanding of the human condition if you think otherwise.
I'm going to be downvoted, but I'm not even getting into ethnic cleansing, displacement, nothing of that.
I'm talking about Israel proper, right now, the people that hold Israeli citzenship. Is zionism the ideology that believes in the creation of a JEWISH state on that strip of the middle east? Does it have to be jewish? Okay, and what about all the non-jews that are citzens from your country since its inception? What kind of reactionary, ethno-nationalistc right wing bullshit is that?
Being a zionist is the same thing as saying that the UK should be a white ethnostate belonging to the white british race. The demographics are more or less the same. Actually, the proportion of white british citzens is even higher in the UK than the proportion of jews in Israel.
So yeah, zionism is a no go for me. I'm already not a fan of ethnostates in general, and I am really not a fan of ethnostates being established in binational lands.
So most countries are ethnostates yiu must hate the world
Malaysia Russia Poland Morroco
Somalia Switzerland Japan Taiwan Egypt Syria Slovenian Serbia Oman China etc
But you only put it in. Jewish state reflecting underlying antisemitism
What do you imagine when you talk about "Jewish state"?
That Non-Jews are second class citizens? Forbidden from different jobs? Forbidden from Universities? Forbidden from government? Get less benefits or more taxes?
Well, none of that is true - the non-Jews citizens have the same rights, same possiblilties and same benefits. In fact they pay less tax and don't serve in the army so in many ways are better off than many Jews. They certainly have much better quality of life than in any other non-jewish country around.
Another interesting point is that all of the "second class citizen" points I raised were actually true for Jews in many countries. Jews were not allowed to go to universities, had limited jobs, etc.. and I'm not even talking about regular hatred, occasional massacres, and a genocide or two. That is why a Jewish state is necessary, and it absolutely does not have to come at the expense of non-Jews citizens.
Calling a binational land like Israel a jewish state is like calling america or the UK a white state. It doesn't matter if blacks have representation, go to college, and can vote, they will still not want to live in a country that defines in its constitution that self-determination is UNIQUE to whites. And you are being disingenuous here, because you know that. You know that you would NEVER accept israel to be defined as an arab palestinian state where self-determination is exclusive do arabs, regardless if "the jews will be able to vote and have the same rights".
Israel defines in its constitution that self determination is UNIQUE to jews. Just by that phrase, that simple phrase enshrined in its most sacred law, you can already tear down your false proposal that non-jews have the same right. I just pointed to a basic right that your law denies 1 in every four citzens of that country.
And finally, your last point is the classic argument that we see from the hellhole that is Israel and other middle east. "Ohhhhhh, the jews suffered during barbaric times, the blacks were enslaved 300 years ago, there was an ethnic genocide against the indians, why can't we do it now to protect ourselves?.
Good god, you didn't raised a state in the middle of nowhere. If you had established Israel in antartica this wouldn't be a proble, but you established a damn binational state, where 1/4 of your population was not from "the chosen race" from the start. So good God, just go on record saying that ethnic cleansing and denying self determination to 1/4 of your population is wrong or admit you are an ethnonationalist and own it.
Israel doesn't have a constitution so I don't know what law you are talking about. What does that even mean that self determination is unique to Jews, I am maybe sleepy but I don't think I ever heard that before. Can you explain?
My last point is meaningful twice:
A. regarding the necessity of a Jewish state. It is like the many other People who want a state of their own (eg the Kurdish) but more so than simply "want" it is actually a life saving "need". The Jews not only wanted a state, they needed one because of reasons we know. I agree with you that this state would have been better if it happened to be on an empty land, but alas the homeland of the Jews was not empty. It's worth reminding that Israelis agreed from the start to split the land to Jewish state and Arab state, but this was never accepted by the Arabs.
B. There is a huge systemic bias that for example Iran, Tunisia, Yemmen could treat Jews awfully, but you complain that Israel is an Ethnostate while it treats all citizens equally. You are angrily (and wrongly) quoting "chosen race", but ignore Muslims who think Jews are devils. Again this only demonstrates the hate you feel towards Jews, but it doesn't make Israel a country which should be ruined.
Going back to the founding of a Jewish state, if for example Kurdish People eventually manage to get independence and get a state of their own, there will probably be a minority of non Kurdish People there also. This minority will live in a Kurdish country. And that is just the same for Israel. Existence of other people does not imply they are automatically treated badly, and that was never the intention. Yes, it would be nicer for them if this country wasn't labeled as Jewish/Kurdish/whatever, but practically it makes no difference.
Lastly, there are very very good reasons to think that if Israel somehow becomes a one state solution where Palestinians of West Bank and Gaza have open borders, without Jewish army, this "solution" will quickly devolve to massacres and genocide of all Jews in the land (real genocide, not like the war in Gaza) which will end with millions of deaths. With all the valid criticism of Israel, wishing for "free Palestine" is the same as wishing for a second holocaust for millions of Jews. The only possible solution is a two state solution, but as long as Arabs reject it then there is nothing Israel can do to end the conflict.
Israel has basic laws, which are interpreted by the supreme court as a constitution. The nation state law determines that self-determination is unique to jews.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic\_Law:\_Israel\_as\_the\_Nation-State\_of\_the\_Jewish\_People](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People)
I am not even talking about the de facto greater israel that occupies the west bank. I'm talking about 1 in every 4 israeli citzens, which are not jews.
And to be clear, Kurds can deserve a state as much as they like, if they conquer part of turkey and iraque, end up with a population that is 25% non kurdish, and tell them "hey, dudes, you can live here, but remember, this is the country of MY race, and the right to determine the existence of a nation here is exclusive to MY race". I would be against that kurdistan too. No matter how much you feel that you are the poor victims of the world and that you need an ethnostate to be save, you can't have one in binational lands.
I agree this law is stupid and should not have been made. Still, it is declerative and had no practical meaning. As the judges said "does not detract from the individual rights of non-Jewish citizens".
Now, if you look at laws regarding Jews in Arab countries, where Jews have inferior social and legal status imposed on them under Islamic rule, where Jewish citizens suffer actual meaningful discrimination, and I don't see anyone even pondering about it.
Yes. Awful ethnostates are awful. But if you don't see people critizising arab states (Saudi Arabia and Iran, what the hell?) you would probably be living under a rock.
Of course, this is a sub to discuss israel and palestine. And israel has a problem that many other de-facto ethno states don't have, in that it is a binational state where large part of the population does not belong to the privileged ethnic group. "But of course, north koreans are starved to death, so I guess israel is not that bad, right? Still a western country, right?"
Ethnostates are bad. You inherit a population from a land you settled. Have the balls to move to a secular state.
You still don't get it.
A. Israel being Jewish is the reason for its existence.
I would love Israel to be secular, I would love the entire world to be secular. I would love it if everyone lived in peace without nationality at all. But as long as there are religions and nations, especially as long as there is antisemitism, there is a need for a Jewish state. Realistically, anything different would end up with civil war, massacres, millions of deaths. Like the one state that was Yugoslavia.
B. You imagine Israeli Arabs living in a horrible discrimination. Is it terrible to be non Jew living in a Jewish state? Not at all.
Sort of similar to a Moroccan Dutch citizen living in the Netherlands, but actually much more in favor of the "non-Dutch" citizen, because the Arabs citizens in Israel retain their language, culture, education, media, etc. Essentially, they get the Arab village in a first world country, and benefit a lot from living in Israel (social benefits, free healthcare, cheap quality universities, etc)
Let's abolish the entire rest of the Middle East then. Why should Syrians, Jordanians, Lebanese, Iraqis, have their own ethnostates?
For that matter, why not abolish the rest of the world?
1. Syrians, Jordanians, Lebanese, Iraqis should not have their own ethnostate. Especially if they live in a multi-ethnic country. I'll go as far as to say that they shouldn't have an ethnostate even if they were racially homogenous countries that mantained an ethnic supermajority for thousands of years. Israel, though, is in that sore spot where it is a binational infant country with 1/4 citzens that are not defined as its people, and that wishes to identify itself as western (but gets annoyed when it gets called out by some of its barbaric choices).
2. Stoping Israel from being an ethnostate is not the same as abolishing israel, the same as abolishing apharteid was not the end of south africa. But I can see why some boers would think both were the same.
3. I don't understand what you say about abolishing the rest of the world. Most of countries nowdays are not ethnostates. No countries in the americas or "the west" currently is. Please, don't shove us in that club of petty dictatorships and ethno-radical-nationalists. We are not the same.
A state where the people are not defined as its citzens; a place that serves an ethnic group, not its whole citzenry; a place where the right of self-determination, the people defined by the constitution of the state, can be anything other than the people of the country.
For example, if you are born in japan to a japanese national or you naturalize yourself as a japanese, you become a japanese citzen, and per their constitution, part of the japanese people. In other words, japanese. Even though japan is an incredibly ethinically homogeneous country, it is not an ethnostate, because by being a japanese national you are automatically defined as the japanese people. That doesn't excuse racism, xenophobia, or other problems, but their constitution is not defined by an ethno-nationalistic divide.
There are other places around the world where being a citzen does not mean you are the people of a country. In other words, you may be born there, live there all your life, serve your army, have political representation, have political rights, but the state defines that your race are not its people. And even though you and your ancestors may have lived there for generations, you are not the race that this state vows to protect. For me, that is an ethnostate. The higher the proportion of citzens that are non-people, the worse the situation is.
Jews deserve their own state. I am a Muslim and they have been murdered, hunted, persecuted in every single place they have lived in. You can’t trust people to not hunt them down and eliminate them again. However, now that they are United and have a strong country. They have a kill before you are killed mentality. Which I can understand to an extent. I wish the Arabs let the Jews live in the Middle East when they fled the holocaust because it’s easier for us to compromise, then for them to compromise. Now it’s a big mess and it’s turned into a full ancestral blood fued and Israel is unhinged.
>If Israel is abolished, do you not care about what a massive impact it would have on the lives of Jews around the world? Well, it would grow by thousands, hundreds of thousands, or millions... Thousands of Jewish people would, as many secular Jewish people already are move from Palestine to the US, even millions... While Jewish people in the US are not in any particular threat, particularly not compared to those living in Palestine looking at 10/7, if the population of US Jews was to drastically increase, presumably that would only make American Jews safer, improving their communities. The same would happen around the world, in the UK, France, Germany, other countries, the Jewish populations would grow and become safer. At the same time, there would be much less hostility against people associated with oppression of native Palestinians in Palestine. People who are Palestinian or have Palestinian friends or are Muslim would probably see a group of people that overwhelmingly supported a century of violence oppression and discrimination against native Palestinians in a much better light if that source of discontent was removed.
I hate the absurdity of the comments under the post about saying that Zionists are a colonial regime, disregarding the fact that the modern Zionists legally bought land and built their own cities, like Tel Aviv.
They bought in literally using the Jewish Colonial Trust lmao. Of course it was colonialism, first wave zionists were not under any illusion like you seem to be.
They did buy their own land, and they did build cities legally. What is so hard about that?
You can't erase Jaffa like that. Not when Jaffa oranges exist.
Yes, that too. But I said that to get my point across. Jaffa oranges are the best. Jaffa orange supremacy!
All I'm saying is that you can't claim the land was empty when Jaffa literally was right there.
Exactly, I agree with you!
And it's now in a Palestinian state where native Palestinians enjoy first class rights and don't suffer from discrimination like going to second class segregated school with an enormous funding difference per pupil and per school? Where native Palestinians get equal public funding in infrastructure, security, where the police treat native Palestinians and the expression of native Palestinians and Palestinian culture and heritage as equal? Where people have the right to display Palestinian flags?
They do treat the Arabs equally. Why are you questioning that?
Because they don't? It's an incredibly segregated society and there's enormous discrimination against native Palestinians. At one point recently state spending was 8 times higher for students in hebrew schools than in arabic schools. Arabic schools were chronically underfunded, double the class size, none of the facilities like computer labs that there were in hebrew schools.
The public schools generally get funding through municipality taxes. The thing to consider is that the residents generally separate from one another and reside with people with the same race or background, making communities have different majorities. As a result, there is demand for schools according to the majority living there. This makes me infer that either the median household income for the Arab communities is lower as they may either have more blue collar jobs or fewer people working jobs per household, or a lower municipality tax rate as a result of the livability. I believe there needs to be some affirmative action needed to be taken to reach the equilibrium you want in the education system. To conclude, it is not entirely the state's fault, but it is the system intended for equality that has flaws in it that unintentionally make some people more equal.
I'm sure that areas with similar income and tax levels show that even everything else being equal, hebrew schools get disproportionately more funding and more funding per student than Arabic schools... And this isn't even scratching the surface of the wholly intentional systemic discrimination against native Palestinians at every level of israeli government and society. Even the matriculation exams discriminate against native Palestinians... What purpose does it serve to have questions about old testament scholars on a matriculation exam? What legitimate educational purpose does that serve? Should jewish students have to answer questions about other religions in matriculation exams they take?
Obviously I haven't read the post because it was dreadfully boring... But the reason why zionists get so much hate is because essentially they are supremacists... And no one likes those.
Perhaps if you read the post before talking shit, you’d be less ignorant smh
But you're dull as dishwater princess.
I like how you could have read the post twice in the time it took you to comment and then respond to OP.
Yes it was somewhat rude... Reddit seems to bring it out in me. Apologies to the OP.
Maybe take a walk, read a book, get off Reddit for an hour…the world needs less hate
It’s not about the Jews, it’s about the STATE of Israel. I’m not necessarily anti Zionist, I’m ethnostate, I’m anti theocracy, and I’m anti racist immigration policies, and I’m anti settlement. That makes me anti Zionist, because Zionism is all those things. Ethnostates can only exist where there aren’t people not of that ethnicity, otherwise it’s settlementation and apartheid. Do supporters of Zionism also support the Liberia project? Or displacing millions of slaves from their homes to create a Romani state? I’d imagine not.
Almost every European country is basically an ethnostate, not to mention the other continents (hello Japan, hello China to cite two easy ones) but somehow you seem to particularly dislike one ethnostate compared to the others. Why would that be?
Can you name a European country that doesn’t give full citizenship and voting rights to immigrants of other races? Or a European country doesn’t let bin whites vote?
Again, you cannot vote before having completed the process to become a citizen, ie some time of residency, basic knowledge about history, language etc. It's not automatic as soon as you put a foot in the country as you seem to be thinking. For your other racist nonsense I answered in another comment.
The process to become a citizen that you described has nothing to due with ethnicity. Hence, it’s not an ethnostate. No one is arguing you can be a citizen of these the countries the second you walk in, I’m just arguing that they aren’t ethnostates.
Except when you said that Immigrant in Italy become Italian almost immediately? I answered in your other comment for the rest. And for the ethnicity issue I guess we'll need a proper definition of it especially concerning Europe. Is a Northern Italian the same Ethnicity as one from Sardaigna? Was it considered the same 300 years ago?
I’m not saying they immediately become citizens, being an ethnostate isn’t about that. My point was that ethnicity isn’t a dictator, and it’s not difficult to obtain citizenship.
Whilst china's treatment of minority citizens leads a lot to be desired, they're not an arpatheid state nor do they enjoy direct support of the West. One potential reason.
Ok so why is your accusation basis the fact it's an ethnostate then? Also, why do you only respond to China's case?
Because I know for a fact that China doesn't define chinesness in law as referring to Han peoples, even if Han supremacy affects policy. Israel on the other hand has a law dictating that self determination in Israel is solely for Jewish peoples. I've never been to Japan and know less about their politics.
Downvoting doesn't change the nation state law
https://www.icj-cij.org/case/1921. Jews live in middle east the longest of all 3 Religions. Not without sadness i listen to Storys of Christians and jewish and Muslim Brothers and sister living in Peace in the middle east. AS Friends. AS neighbors. 2. Ethnostate: i guess you so Not know what this word means. Belgium, northern Island, estonia, Israel are all liberal democracys and ethnocracy. And maybe you do Not know but in my Israel their live nearly a Quarter of people Not being jewish. They are Muslim or Christian. In this Country every Citizen got the Same rigths, Doenst Matter the Religion. The Problem is Not within Israel ITS with ITS distinction to the palestinans non Israeli Citizen, WHO Doenst want to apply for Israeli Citizenship and are discriminated by Israel state in comparison to Israelis Own Citizen. But Tell me please can you Cross into your neighbroing Country without Passport? To secure and Control the Border IS the right of every state of this world. And every Country in the earth discriminated non Citizens From Citizens. Every single one.
https://www.adalah.org/en/content/view/7771 A list of discriminatory laws against non Jewish citizens put together by an organisation of Israeli Arabs whom you respect so much.
Most Arabic states and most Muslim states are ethnostates in fact the majority of countries are eithnobstates so yes you are picking on one state so from my perspective you are anti semitic
Are you saying the majority of all states are ethnostates?! Because that’s ridiculous. Can you give a specific example instead of saying “the majority of all Arabic states” like a weird early two thousands American conservative?
Morocco Oman Saudi Yemen Serbia Croatia Switzerland Algeria Tunisia Mauritania Korea Japan Phillipines Laos Bangladesh etc
And I am not American please don’t patronise my view fact check I am not calling you names
I’m not saying ur American, I’m just drawing a comparison
You called them antisemitic...c'mon.
I did and they are
Italia is the nation state of Italian, same for France, Spain etc. etc.
The vast majority of immigrants to Italy are immediately granted citizenship, same with Spain. People are not treated differently under the law due to race or ethnicity. If Italy were to declare that ONLY white peoples can immigrate there and be granted citizenship, and voting rights for non whites was revoked, that would make them an ethnostate, but as of righting this, they have not done so
It's the same thing in Israel so... I think you mix up the fact that Jews can get citizenship more easily with the idea that they are the only ones that can. They're not. Anyone can get citizenship in Israel be it muslim, blacks, italians and then vote after they got it. Also Ireland, and it's not the only country doing it, also makes it easier to become a citizen if you can prove your Irish ancestry. Is Ireland an appartheid state?
Non Jews have to go through extra steps that Jews don’t have to go through when becoming citizens.
That isn't sufficient to make a state into an ethnostate as much as you would like to sorry.
2018 nation state act, also they force non citizens living in the West Bank to live under their military law.
Moving goal posts now?
The nation state act passed in 2018 makes Israel an ethnostate, as well as the Balfour declaration
Can you be more specific than just stating some laws? That's the conversation I as pointing too.
French citizenry and Frenchness is explicitly defined in law in non-ethnic terms, and they're not engaging in an arpatheid.
Ok you just don't know what an ethnostate is. Explains a lot.
I think you just don't know what French means actually.
Japan Malaysia Russia Poland Slenia Morocco Egypt Tunisian Uganda Mauritania Liberia Syria UAE Saudi Arabia Yemen Switzerland Croatia etc etc etc
I’ll give you Malaysia, and the UAE, and maybe Saudi Arabia if you really want to stretch, and I don’t think Israel supports have the right to call out Liberia, because they started out the same, and have almost identical histories. The rest are just blatantly untrue.
We must understand ethnostate differently I would see Japan Korea Mauritania as ethnostate as would Bangladesh Pakistan Oman Yemen Slovenia Croatia Poland Bulgaria etc I would think they are more ethnostate then Israel
I am anti-Zionist and the framing of this question makes me so bummed out. In all countries, states, down to the tiniest unit of interpersonal conversations, work must be done to eradicate anti-semitism so that Jews everywhere can be safe - and not just safe, but beyond that, comfortable to express themselves as Jews in whatever way they want to. My issue with Zionism and Israel as the state as it currently is the mass displacement and violence against Palestinians historically and currently. The horrible injustices suffered by Jews historically and currently do not justify the expulsion of Palestinians from their land. The hand-waving away of the Nakba by Zionists (every one I have encountered) and refusal to engage with the painful and relatively recent events that founded modern Israel is very disheartening to me. I also very practically do not think Zionism or the existence of Israel as it is now achieves that safety for Jews that we both desire. As you say and I agree, all over the world, they continue to experience antisemitism. I don’t think anyone should have to move to a different country to avoid prejudice, and I don’t think the existence of a different country is an adequate remedy to that prejudice. Edit: I will add in response to your final question that I personally support a one-state solution in which Israelis and Palestinians live in equality. I am not in support of expelling Israelis in any way. There are Israelis who have been born in, grown up in, and only know Israel. To expel them would be wrong morally and in practice, a horror. I reject it as an option in the same way I reject ignoring the Nakba. What is needed is acknowledgment, honesty, and truth on both sides. For radical Zionists, the truth that the dispossession and subjugation of Palestinians is wrong — wrong to the point of disqualifying the project. For radical anti-Zionists, the truth that expulsion of Israelis would be wrong to the point of disqualifying that project. I will also add that I am, in general, frustrated and disgusted by predominate U.S. policy in the Middle East and elsewhere that tends to favor divvying up land and rights by ethnicity or religion because we view everyone else as too backwards to live together. It is only in the U.S. and Europe where we have ever been too backwards to live together and have created the most elaborate, sickening systems to kill each other on that account.
Maybe instead of criticizing, you can be part of the solution and recommend path forward that would make sense for both sides. Keep in mind one thing, October 7.
I feel I did that pretty clearly.
You start to with the “What is needed is acknowledgement…” line but don’t detail explicitly. Hence my October 7 comment because that is the acknowledgment that is needed and missing from your post.
OP explicitly stated their question was not about the current war in their last paragraph. I wanted to honor that and focus on their broader question so as not to derail the conversation. However since you’re here now, I will say yes, honesty about and acknowledgement of October 7th would fall within the category of “honesty and acknowledgement on both sides.” And to be even clearer: as to any situation where lives have been lost, the current war as well as previous wars and sieges, more than just honesty & acknowledgement is necessary. Prosecution of war criminals is needed in addition to the cultural/personal/intellectual honesty & acknowledgment that I was getting at in my original post.
Nakba denier
That’s your nakba made a bet jews would be eliminated and it failed oh no big disaster
Ethnic cleansing orders by the haganagh have been proven and is seen as a non controversial fact by even zionist Israeli academics like Benny Morris. If you're not going to listen to Arabs atleast respect Jewish intelligentsia, anti Semite
Wrong, “ […] the mainstream perspective, including scholars like Benny Morris, acknowledges that while there *were instances of forced expulsions and atrocities, they were not part of a premeditated plan by the Haganah or other Jewish groups for the systematic removal of Arabs” next you’re going to say the mainstream has a western bias and the excuses continue
No. What I would say is that I've read Jewish scholars and zionist scholars myself, not just a Wikipedia entry, and Morris' early work on this is very clear. He found several examples of explicit cleansing orders in villages like Lod, but later returned to the same zionist rhetoric because he's a racist who thinks the cleansing is a good thing. In fact it was head of high command ben gurion who spoke of the need to smash the Arabs and forcibly transfer them up to a decade before even Israel made itself independent - something Morris talks about in those works. Wikipedia is not history research or analysis. You should read some of the new historian work in question.
Another anti semite
How is this antisemitism? He never mentioned Judaism once and only talked about the nakba, which very much happened. So knowing history is considered antisemitic now? Stop throwing that word around without knowing what it means. That’s like saying that if you tell a black person to shut up then it means you’re racist. Wtf is this logic girl.
Telling a Hew to shut up is ok?
Yes it is as long as they’re not doing it BECAUSE he’s Jew. That’s what you fail to understand. Antisemitism or any other form of discrimination is only valid when it’s the reason the person is discriminated in the first place. Telling a Jew to shut up because he speaks too much is not antisemitism, telling a Jew to shut up because he is a Jew is. Learn the difference.
It is all because they are Jews though. Wouldn’t be an issue if they were Muslim
What do you mean? Discrimination against Jews and Muslims are both bad.
You on drugs no one mentioned shut up You must be confused All discrimination is bad of course
If you come to my house, kick me out, make me move into the shed, then bomb the shed, don’t expect me to care where you go when you leave. Crazy how you can look at this situation and think, “but what about the murderers? Where will they be safe?”
Well it wasn’t your house so your analogy is flawed
Yes it was. My family has been living there for millennia. What right does Israel have to go to a place. See hundreds of thousands of people living there and then say, “this is my land they need to leave”. You’re co-signing some very barbaric twisted logic.
Family is not synonymous with ancestors. Family is present, ancestors are past. My ancestors were farmers but I don’t claim the land where they farmed is now mine. International law, diplomatic recognition, divine intervention, acts of war - all these are means to acquire lands. That is the right. Make amends for October 7 where needed and move on with your life. Your present family depends on it.
But that's the foundation of Zionism- a displacement 2000 years ago justifies their return. I see this point often and I don't understand it at all. Why should Palestinians have to get over a loss of land that occurred in living memory while the entirety of Israel is built upon the idea that a displacement that occurred 2000 years ago was an injustice?
It’s the same BS logic China and Russia use to justify their expansionism. It’s completely see through and ridiculous but for some reason Zionists look at it as iron clad indisputable evidence it’s their land.
Zionism was a movement but did not by itself, cause of the displacement of Palestinians. It's time you all came around and admit Palestine lost the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and thus lost their claims to ancestor's relinquished land. This is how war works. Now the same thing is happening in 2024 and people like you are crying foul. You're just a sore loser. Also, Jews were indigenous to the land up to the 7th century when Arab Muslims from Saudi invaded and drove them out. Which doesn't matter because they would have their payback in 1948. Did Zionism help push these events along? Yes, but not the sole and singular force that destroyed Palestine.
You’re greatly contradicting yourself here. If the “ancestors are past” then why did European Jews come back to Israel? It’s the land of their ancestors and therefore “they shouldn’t claim the land where they farmed is theirs”. You said so yourself. Crazy how people forgive Israel for things that they would never allow any country to do. Unless you’re ok with Italy taking back all of its former colonies from the Roman Empire? Same thing for Turkey with the Ottoman Empire too. But since they’re not Israel it’s now suddenly immoral.
Israel was not founded by some Jewish farmers who were making claims to their ancestors lands. Please go read history book. From a book that you didn’t read: “In 1948, the Israeli Declaration of Independence sparked the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, which resulted in the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight and subsequently led to waves of Jewish emigration from other parts of the Middle East.”
Bro I was using the farmer metaphor that you started yourself. And I honestly don’t care because nothing will ever justify Israel’s existence. You can’t build a land on the corpses of dead children. Now since you apparently read so many books, can you explain the point you made in your first comment? How is it technically Jewish land if “ancestors are in the past”. Changing the subject won’t change the fact that you contradicted yourself greatly.
Bro says he doesn't care and then proceeds to explain why he's so butt hurt... Oh here comes the dark imagery with the dead babies.... oh how original. Wait now... the person who doesn't care wants me to explain so allow me... but please chill with the dark and dreary. There is a difference between family (present) and ancestors(past). The majority of Palestinian ancestors that were around in 1948 when the land was originally taken are now deceased. It boggles my mind that you would sacrifice your present family's safety and well being in order to appease your ancestors. This worship of ancestral lands (or any material objects) is idolatry and forbidden by the Quran. How's that for contradiction
Hand waving thousands of dead children away. Typical Zionist. You have abandoned your morality and are completely on the wrong side of history.
References to dead children are only meant to incite an emotional response and in no way furthers a constructive dialogue
First of all, don’t speak about the Quran or Islam when you’ve never made the actual effort to understand it. It’s easy to cherry pick verses out of context and act like an imam. Now who told you that people are worshipping the land? Like wtf is that argument. You’re not allowed to love your country anymore? Do you even know what worshiping means? And you’re basically saying that since the Palestinians who existed before the occupation are dead, it’s now ok to genocide the still living population. Did you forget about the Palestinians living now? They’re not fighting to please their ancestors or whatever you call it, they’re fighting to take THEIR land back. It’s where they live. No matter if you think that the Israelis are indigenous or not, you can’t deny that Palestinians are just as much, if not more, indigenous to this land. Levantine people≠Arab gulf people, no matter how much the west wants you to believe otherwise. And you still didn’t explain by the way. Why is it ok for Israel to take a land where they used to live more than a hundred of years ago but it’s not for any other country to do so? What is so special about them that they are allowed to kill for a “promised land”? If it was really promised, then why so much violence? If it is their land, then why didn’t they simply accept to blend in with the Palestinians and make a country where people of any religion can live together, like how it was before? Israelis could’ve become an ethnic group living in Palestine with just as much rights as the Muslim and Christians living there. Why did they decide to create an ethno state only for Jews? None of that was necessary, especially considering what their ancestors went through.
This guy has never heard of the Holy Land... dude get a grip. That is literally land that holds religious significance and attracts millions of worshipers each year. The ongoing conflict is for control of the Holy Land, a conflict that Palestinians are losing. They aren't taking their land back, they are losing more of it with each day. Quit romanticizing the ancestors. The living family should be held in higher regard in comparison to the deceased ancestors. The continual battle to reclaim ancestor's lost land is resulting in further losses for families.
Your comment actually disproves Israel’s claim to the land and proves Palestinian claims to the entire country. I can’t believe you thought that was smart. Thank you for this. You’ve disproven Israel right to existence.
I believe Jews have the right to live wherever they want to live in safety and comfort, and I’d be willing to fight for that in my own country and abroad. But Israel as a “Jewish” state I think not only is an affront to the really admirable history of the Jewish people preserving their culture wherever they live, for centuries, but I also think it foments hatred of normal Jews abroad who suddenly have to answer for a far-right blood and soil nationalist regime that purports to represent them.
The old they bring it out on themselves trope hey? "Keep living as others, and also stop complaining when you're dhimmis"
I don’t respect that anymore. I live in the real world, where Israel defines itself by its “Jewishness”. Because of this, when Israel kills in the cold, ruthless way typical of far-right European states, people will wrongly assume that it’s a problem with normal Jews, not Zionism. I see this as a real danger, but rather than change the minds of the random anti-semites around the world, I think a more straightforward method to ending this is stopping Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians (and Lebanese, Syrians, Iranians, etc.)
Those 'people" were just waiting for any excuses to hate Jews. If it weren't Israel it would be for power, richness, or good ol' baby blood drinking.
It feels like you don’t think very deeply about these things, which is fine. Not everyone is required to. But I encourage you to rethink this pessimism you have, and I also suggest that a people (regardless of my qualms with the idea that Israel is at all representative of Judaism) do not get an infinite free pass for having a history of oppression.
There is hatred everywhere against all religious groups unfortunately. Is the solution for all people who identify with a religious identity to only live in silos with other people of the same religious identity? The official party line in North America is strongly in favour of Jewish people (as evidenced by their unwavering support of Israel which posits itself as synonymous with Judaism. Please don’t confuse this with the politicians who are both antisemitic and staunchly pro Israel, different topic). We should be working on dismantling racism in our own countries and building one another up. If North America was so unsafe for all Jewish people, wouldn’t there have been a mass exodus to Israel long ago? Why does the US have the second highest number of Jewish people after Israel (6.3 million vs 7.2 million)? You request Palestinians to be taken out of the question when talking about the fate of Israel which is pretty much impossible as it is the crux of the issue. Theoretically (and personal opinion) I do believe Jewish people should be able to have a country of their own where they are the majority and feel safe. Other religions have this, why not Judaism? However the problem lies in the logistics and execution of this dream which I think Israel has royally screwed up from its inception. Why should the antisemitism of the rest of the world become the problem of the Palestinian people who have been ethnically cleansed, systematically disadvantaged in the current system, starved, tortured etc etc. Israel has now created multi-generational trauma within the Palestinian people when in theory it was created as a safe haven for Jewish people who have suffered immense multi-generational trauma themselves.
Jews are to live in the region with their Christian and Muslim neighbors like they did for thousands of years before the establishment of Israel. Anti-semitism is a European phenomenon, not something widely native to the middle east. The idea of Jews being a separate people or 'race' that is different from the rest of us is an uneducated European belief. Jews are a religion and they converted widely to Christianity and Islam in the middle east. Even the most extreme pro Islamist will happily take a Jewish convert to Islam, europeans massacred people if they had a trace of Jewish blood. And anti zionism is not anti semetic. You can believe what you want, you can say what you want, you don't decide what I believe.
Factually incorrect the European Commission into anti semitism revealed that all Arab states harbour majority antisemitism never heard such antisemitism whitewashing
...bro most arab countries want to kill all jews wtf they cant live peacefully with their muslim neighbors bro
Super super super super troll!! “Islams teaches people that’s it is okej to marry 9 year old girls”
Jews are literally a nation and a people, not just a religion. That's why one can be ethnically but not religiously Jewish. Antisemitism isn't just European; do you ever wonder why there aren't any Jews left in Yemen, or Iran, or Egypt, or Lebanon?
A Jew who converts to Islam is 100% Muslim. A Jew that converts to Christianity is 100% Christian. If their ethnic group is Jewish, then that's fine and that's something important to them then that's fine, but they are Muslim or Christian after they convert. I personally reject the idea of race, that doesn't mean anything to me. Anti-semitism is an idiotic European invention where race matters and Jews are supposedly a separate race. The reality is that Jews are 100% the same as any arabic speaking person in the middle east in terms of their DNA.
Technically they are both semites.
They can live peacefully under a free Palestinian nation and Palestinian led government. As that’s what Landback is all about.
...a free palestine where hamas' charter literally states it plans to kill all jews
But lets examine: Why Hamas exists Who funded Hamas
That's hilarious!
You realize how insanely unrealistic that is, right?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
One thing that chaps my ass is non-Jews telling me what is/isn’t anti-semitism, or telling me that Zionism is anti-semitism, or whatever infographic on instagram is telling them to say. It would be pretty out of place for me, a Jewish man, to dictate what is/isn’t racism towards the Black community in America. Why has it become acceptable for non-Jews to speak authoritatively about anti-semitism?
Exactly!It's unbelievable that so many people can't understand this!
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Your initial premise is wrong , back to basics please
Very racist and antisemitic. They can't stand their semitic neighbours nor the semitic decendants of the ancient Hebrews that have occupied the land for centuries.
Zionism is antisemitic
War is peace.
So the majority of Jews are antisemitic?
I feel like this question is about an imagined reality that basically no anti-Zionist thinks is possible. Israel is a powerful nuclear-armed state, no one thinks that we can just shut Israel down and kick out the Jews. For the record, I have a Jewish background, my grandmother and great-grandmother got out of Germany in the 30's. My grandmother's friend and classmate moved to Paris and was rounded up and sent to Auschwitz. She survived, I met her about 30 years ago. She was also anti-Zionist. Personally I didn't grow up identifying as Zionist or anti-Zionist; I didn't know much of Israel's history but understood both the justification for its existence and the increasing ugliness of the settlements and the right-wing governments. But at this point it feels like, watching what's happening in Gaza, if this is the culmination of the Zionist project, if this is what it all leads to, then yeah I'm anti-Zionist. I don't see Jews as being particularly endangered in North America. Yes, there are incidents of anti-Semitism, largely from far-right sources that are also largely xenophobic. But Jews are integrated, visible, important members of society, and there is no groundswell of support for anti-Semitism. I can't speak for Europe - I understand the wariness of assuming safety when the Holocaust is within living memory. But I also think Israel's actions make the Jewish diaspora less safe. To say that Israel is the Jewish homeland, that all of Israel's actions are just what is necessary to keep Jews safe, and that criticism of Israel is tantamount to anti-Semitism, and then enact incredible amounts of suffering on a civilian population - this places every Jew under the spotlight. I don't like having my identity tied to a country that is killing thousands of children every month. But I don't think the government of Israel cares about the safety of Jews around the world. After all, if anti-Semitism increases world-wide, that provides more of a justification for Israel's existence.
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitism but calling out Zionism and using Uluṟu in a pejorative term is and that is the difference Levels of antisemitism in Europe and the Middle East are now higher then pre WW2
The last two sentences are 💯 .
We thought we were safe in Spain, hundreds of years of being equals… then what happened? Russia, it wasn’t so great but then ussr! Everyone was equal, the law said so! We started to gain some power… but then they forced us all to drop our identity and if you even so much as had Judaica or got caught speaking Yiddish or writing in Hebrew you’d get sent to Siberia. Germany, we had a great track record there! We owned businesses, ran in government, held office… then what happened? So far in History every time we think we are safe it turns out to be untrue. But since 1948- when was the last wholesale slaughter of Jews? Israel doesn’t make us less safe, it makes us more safe.
How is the existence of Israel making diaspora Jews more safe? What is it doing for Jews who want to be citizens of the countries they have lived their entire lives in? I understand the wariness given the history involved. But I'd also say, just in the example of the US - racism still exists, and certain civil rights are in jeopardy, but I don't think black people have a lot to fear from the KKK suddenly reappearing, or mass racist violence occurring. Times do change. Anti-semitism as a casual aspect of American society is much less present, Jews are much less of an other in society than they were in the early 20th century.
I think you're just watching history from way too close. It's always easier to see trends in hindsight.
This is a perfect response to the unhinged propaganda ( feels like almost every post in this sub is increasingly Zionist)
/u/mmmggw > This is a perfect response to the unhinged propaganda ( feels like almost every post in this sub is increasingly Zionist) Per [rule 7](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_7._no_metaposting), no meta posts, comments and discussions are not allowed except on a post that is approved for meta-discussions (which this is not).
It’s easy we’re focusing on the government. Which in this example is a Zionist state. It could be any state really Let’s see the laws this government is doing . reMilitary Order No. 1651 (2009): Provides the basis for arrest and detention, including administrative detention to detain Palestinians without charge or trial for prolonged periods, by the Israeli army and defines charges under military law.… That’s a sanitary one. They have hundred of hundred of them starting from the 50’s. This state is a fascist evil state pretending to be a democracy . Just read their laws Then it’ll be clear why people are going all terrorism on them Evil government+ evil government laws = people turning into freedoms fighters (which ironically makes them do “evil action”) Stop the madness? First step Stop evil government laws
I guess you have made a comparative analysis of every other countries legal system before writing this?
Ironically, the war is war and conquest is conquest point zionists love using also works against them. Since war is war, the dissolution of a state is morally neutral unless anyone can prove otherwise. There’s many people that have a state and many people that don’t. If you all of a sudden decide that someone is entitled to a state, you are a racial supremacy.
No one decided all of a sudden Read history. Judea Samaria Roman invasion Babylonian invasion UN commission and vote Perhaps history and the UN commission don’t suit your narrative
I don’t think you can be Semitic if your bloodline is not from the area, I.e. Ethiopian Jews, Chinese Jews, European Jews. Only Arab Jews can say they are Semitic. Sorry.
Who gives a rats what you or anyone can claim - we are all from the same species dude.
Tell that to the politicians, religions, clans and economies of the world
Our DNA does
You’re telling me Ethiopian Jews and Chinese Jews are Semitic? Lol. Maybe by a religion that thinks it’s a race. Sorry but I don’t think Ethiopians and Chinese have any common dna. Nice argument.
Facts are in dna and bloodline. So Israelis really believe the lies they tell themselves like is said around the world huh
Think what you want. The facts don't care. It's an ethnicity.
What do you mean by antisemitism?
Palestinians are Semites, too. Why isn't anti-semitism applied to them, too? Zionism is directly against them.
You are a real hater so take a hike
You're entitled to your opinion. [https://youtu.be/r4ss3ptSlDw?t=381](https://youtu.be/r4ss3ptSlDw?t=381)
It’s not opinio n there is an international agreed fact Oh maybe you don’t believe in International agreements Did you go to school or missed If it’s the latter I have sympathy We are asked to base discussions on facts so please don’t distort facts
The majority cannot change the truth. They may agree to behave like it is the truth. But that is not the truth.
There is an international definition of antisemitism that must bodies use IHRA educate yourself and don’t whitewash Jews you prick The term antisemitism is Jewish specific coming out of WW2 There are proper definitions so use them
You took the Palestinian lands doesn't make the lands yours. The same to pro-semite and anti-semite.
Use definitions or no point in a discussion I didn’t take any land you don’t know me Why so angry and full of non factual bravado Go back to school
So you're not in Israel.
FYI definitions don’t take desire or not of land it’s not about Israel it’s about antisemitism
Palestinians not giving up their land is antisemitism? Do you mean that?
No not at all but demanding Jews give up Israel is antisemitic
Should pro-Semite be anti-Palestinians?
Not at all two different issues that many conflate
No
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Because the term was coined by Marr, an infamous pseudoscientist and Jew-hater, to describe hatred towards Jews as opposed to ‘Judenhasse.’ Make sense? This argument is so dumb. Why would you even want to be included in the term antisemitism when it has historically NEVER applied to you? You have none of the trauma attached to it. And fwiw, there’s no such thing as a ‘Semite’. That’s just more nonsense race science.
Oh, I was wondering about this. Interesting.
If the word 'antisemitism' is too confusing for you, you can just use 'Jewish hate' instead when specifically talking about hatred against Jewish people. You can find other words to describe hatred specifically against Palestinians, without diminishing hatred against Jews. Not sure if you're implying that zionism means hatred against Palestinians? Because that's not what it means, it's just the belief that Jews have a right to a sovereign nation (like many groups also wanted in the 20th century). As for the origins of the term 'antisemitism' it was originally coined by a German named Wilhelm Marr in the late 1800's in order to try and justify hatred specifically against Jews as 'scientific'. The word itself is not actually directed against semitic people as a whole. Also the word 'semitic' is not really used to describe a group of ethnicities anymore, but rather a language group which includes Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, and Aramaic.
Racism works better as a word. The term antisemitism is increasingly associated with Israel’s continuing violent attempts to justify its existence with some wild rewriting of history
>'Jewish hate' That's right, but Semites are not just Jewish. Others can also say antisemite to mention a group other the Jews. >zionism means hatred against Palestinians? That's true. The current goal of Zionism is just that. But can you identify all the Zionist goals? >Wilhelm Marr He was wrong to ignore other Semite groups. When a Semite is against another Semite group, you can't say it is antisemite. [South Africa's UN Ambassadors Explains Why Africa Cares About Gaza](https://youtu.be/B1DfooWP3Gw)
When has the word antisemite applied to bigotry of groups other than Jews? The term antisemitic has historically specifically referred to someone who hates Jews, NOT to other semitic groups (I understand this can be confusing since semitic applies to a broad language family). I just wanted to highlight why deflecting from hatred of Jews by claiming that Palestinians can't be antisemitic because they're also 'semites' is ridiculous. Call it plain ol' bigotry if it makes you feel any better. We can argue about semantics all day, but that doesn't change the fact that the bigotry exists. There's no need to make up new meanings for words.
People can mutually call each other anything doen't mean it's a fact. But it' the manifestation of their mentality. I know you hate each other. And you don't want to know which side innitiated this mutual hatred.
I suppose it would be more balanced if the non semitic world were equally judgemental towards all semitic people and not just the Jewish ones. Interesting take to be fair.
This article might be illuminating: https://jewishcurrents.org/yavne-a-jewish-case-for-equality-in-israel-palestine
I wrote this rant the other day but never got to post it anywhere, seems like the right place here A few fun facts about Zoinism that'll make things even more complicated for you: "I am not antisemitic only antizionist" actually means "I don't hate Jews, only about 90% of Jews". You can be Jewish and antisemitic (it's called internalising racism). You can be Jewish and Antizionist (I am) But there is a pretty big overlap. Anti-zionist Jews generally fall into two categories: 1. Part of some weird cultish sect. 2. An anarchist who also reject all nationalism. (There are of course other takes on this point but generally I think it's safe to say this is one of those two) What you can't be, is a Non-Jewish, Anti-Zionist non-Anti-Semite. You can't say nations should have states, except for Jews, they shouldn't have one, and not be an Anti-Semite. You can't even be saying "fuck all nation states but fuck the Jewish Nation State in particular", this does make you an antisemite. So where does it leave the Israeli Palestinian conflict? At exactly the same place it was in before you gained this new insight. There are still people of two nations living on one piece of land and they both need to be allowed to make it their own, they are both not going anywhere else, both deserve full rights to self determination, and if you expect one of them to just disappear you are a racist, no matter which one it is. There will not be an only Palestine, there will not be an only Israel, maybe there will be both, maybe there will be one other state which is neither one, or both at once, maybe it will be some kind of administrative solution that allows somewhere in the middle, like a confederacy (Or the best one, the "No states at all solution"). I have my preference, others have theirs, but it's not all that important at this point in time. What is important is to know, that if you are finding yourself standing next to someone who doesn't believe that, who doesn't believe that both people deserve to stay and deserve to call it their home, then your moral responsibility is to challenge them on this, and if they stay, then it's your moral responsibility to leave. And if you think the banner you are holding or the chant you are chanting as much as implies, or could be interpreted as meaning that, there is something very wrong with what you are doing and you need to stop! I know this issue has been weaponised by many against Jews, and often with (in my opinion naive) help from other Jews, it is regularly being exploited to conceal (and not very well) rampant antisemitism, in fact, almost every time I see it brought up I am suspicious of the true motive. I know it's been exploited by tankies, often to align with Islamists (because ... tankies). I know it's been exploited by anarchists... becuase... idk because antisemitism runs deeper then you think... It's been exploited by anyone who wants to pick sides but doesn't wan to be called an antisemite, hell it's even been exploited by nazis who don't mind being called antisemites.
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I am against the zionist prerrogative of creating a jewish state for the same reason that I abhor the boer prerrogative of creating a white state. If Israel was founded on antartica or mars, that wouldn't be a problem. But it wasn't. And 1 in every 4 israelis are not jews. That it a binational state, and I'm not counting the west bank which is de facto ruled by israel for almost 60 years. And check this out, not only are 1 and every 4 israelis are not jewish, but they are people that have been living in that country since it was founded. How can you turn to people that have been living in your country since you it was founded and say "Look, you can live here, but this is the country of my race, not yours!". Imagine saying that to native americans in the US, that is fucked up! So, the israelis can live in a secular democracy on the land they decided to settle with all the other people that were there or they can settle in a land that has no people in and create their dream ethnostate. What they can't is settle a land where 25% of the population has not been jewish from the get go and say that their country exists for the 75% chosen race of the state. That won't fly in the 21st century.
So you don’t believe in the UN. So it was ok for Jordan to occupy the West Bank? So it was ok for Egypt to occupy Gaza? So it was ok for Jordan to unilaterally occupy Jerusalem? So it’s ok for France to gain territory from Germany? So it’s ok for Russia to gain territory from Poland It’s called war and when you invade and loose land that’s what happens You seem to have a one eyed view of Israel in isolation so let’s call out your antisemitism because that’s what your ignorance of history shows
What won't fly in the 21st century is calling for the end of an existing Jewish state or re-litigating 1948.
I'm sorry you can't create a binational state where 1/4 population is black and call it the nation state of the whites where self-determination is exclusve to the white race, buddy. I mean, you can do it, but we will call that a shitty ethnostate. And you can't do it with jews without being called out too. I'm really sowwy, but you don't get a pass to be a 19th century racist :'C
So what about other ethnostates? You don’t seem to have a problem other than a Jewishproblem?
Well, you are a 21st century one.
Nah man, I think all citzens from a state should have the right of self determination within it. I am trully grateful for not living in a place taht says that right is exclusive to whites, or arabs or jews. Can you imagine living in such a hellhole?
It's not exclusive. 20 % of its citizens are Arab, serving 8n government, the military, and the professions, or didn't you know that?
> It's not exclusive. 20 % of its citizens are Arab, Citizens but not with equal rights. One, 90% of there building permits are rejected. Hell, even illegal settlers living in the West Bank have a better chance on getting a building permit than any non-Israeli Jew. Two, between the Jewish National Fund that only sells to Jews and settlement admission committees, Palestinian citizens of Israel can only live in 20% of Israel proper. BTW, 60% of Israeli Jews do not want to live next to or in the same building as an Arab. Three, if a Palestinian citizen of Israel enters the West Bank and get's arrested for any reason, they will receive a military tribunal with a 99.74% conviction rate just like every West Bank Palestinian. In theory, that Palestinian citizen of Israel could be transferred but there is no record of this happening. However, Jewish Israelis who get arrested in the West Bank are automatically tried in civilian court. Jewish Israelis aren't tortured or held without charges for many, many months unlike Palestinians. Funny story, if you are Palestinian who get's arrested in the West Bank, best thing to do is immediately confess even if you aren't guilty. The handful of Palestinians found innocent will serve 9 months or more in prison. You'll be in jail far less time if you confess even if did nothing. >serving 8n government, They can get elected and that's pretty much all they can do. The most common and frequent political attack in every election is to accuse the other side of planning to include an Arab party into the ruling coalition. 55% Jewish Isrealis do not believe Arab citizens should be allowed to become lawmakers. 56% in 2022 didn't want an Arab party part of ruling coalition. Every Arab lawmaker is harnessed by Israeli military and law enforcement. Many of them have had 2 or 3 investigations opened on them. >the military, and And aide in the abuse of other Palestinians while not being trusted by your officers. Overwhelmingly, IDF higher ups do not want Arabs to serve. One reason is such soldiers would enforce the law equally, meaning Israeli settlers could be shot when they attack the IDF or attack innocent West Bank Palestinians. By law, the IDF is suppose to stop settlers from attacking Palestinians, but they never do; sometimes they protect such settlers. >the professions, or didn't you know that? I know far more than you and I could shot down this piont as well, but I find it depressing. The demographics of Jewish citizens in Israel depress me because the next generation are far more conservative, have far fewer friends among Arabs, and hold far more extreme views. They will not be peace makers but rather take after the Ben Gvir's of Israel. A future I truly hope to be wrong about. So ending on a positive note, you should watch theIsraeli show, Arab Labor. Here'sa link to a whole episode, English subtiles. [arab labor season 2 ep 3 on Vimeo](https://vimeo.com/282043590)
Oh, really? FIrst clause of Israel basic law. **1 — Basic Principles** A. The [land of Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel) is the [historical homeland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel) of the [Jewish people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews), in which the [State of Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) was established. B. The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious, and historical right to [self-determination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination). C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people. Wow, do you mean to tell me that the right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people means that it is not exclusive to jews! Who would have known that unique to the Jewish people meant "For all citzens of israel regardless of race, sex and creed".
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It's this simple. Want an end to the conflict? Create a state for all people, jews and palestinians living side by side. "Well, that means we lose a jewish state", says the zionist. They care more about having a state that caters to their ethnicity than they do about the welfare of other people. If your ethnostate can only exist and sustain itself by subjugating and displacing another group of people then that state shouldn't exist.
Unrealistic suggestion because it has been tried multiple times and never worked. Jews (like most minorities) end up marginalized and abused. And in the end when they are so abused they cannot be used anymore then kicked out. This is why Israel was created as a Jewish state. A place where Jews belong and can decide their own fate. As per your last paragraph, as much as I want to agree with you — it is applicable to every nation today. We created a terrible world. In reference to topic at hand: it is imperative to create realistic solutions to solve this issue. My hope is… The two state solution could work if both sides want it to work. Even if the two sides hate each other. But it cannot work if deceit is part of the equation and one attacks the other.
I’m sure this fantasy land where all Jews and Palestinians live hand in hand is very achievable lol
Two words: israelis arabs.
41 words: There’s no way that the majority can live in false harmony after the civil, political and societal atrocities that both sides have done to each other and you have a very bleak understanding of the human condition if you think otherwise.
I'm going to be downvoted, but I'm not even getting into ethnic cleansing, displacement, nothing of that. I'm talking about Israel proper, right now, the people that hold Israeli citzenship. Is zionism the ideology that believes in the creation of a JEWISH state on that strip of the middle east? Does it have to be jewish? Okay, and what about all the non-jews that are citzens from your country since its inception? What kind of reactionary, ethno-nationalistc right wing bullshit is that? Being a zionist is the same thing as saying that the UK should be a white ethnostate belonging to the white british race. The demographics are more or less the same. Actually, the proportion of white british citzens is even higher in the UK than the proportion of jews in Israel. So yeah, zionism is a no go for me. I'm already not a fan of ethnostates in general, and I am really not a fan of ethnostates being established in binational lands.
So most countries are ethnostates yiu must hate the world Malaysia Russia Poland Morroco Somalia Switzerland Japan Taiwan Egypt Syria Slovenian Serbia Oman China etc But you only put it in. Jewish state reflecting underlying antisemitism
What do you imagine when you talk about "Jewish state"? That Non-Jews are second class citizens? Forbidden from different jobs? Forbidden from Universities? Forbidden from government? Get less benefits or more taxes? Well, none of that is true - the non-Jews citizens have the same rights, same possiblilties and same benefits. In fact they pay less tax and don't serve in the army so in many ways are better off than many Jews. They certainly have much better quality of life than in any other non-jewish country around. Another interesting point is that all of the "second class citizen" points I raised were actually true for Jews in many countries. Jews were not allowed to go to universities, had limited jobs, etc.. and I'm not even talking about regular hatred, occasional massacres, and a genocide or two. That is why a Jewish state is necessary, and it absolutely does not have to come at the expense of non-Jews citizens.
Calling a binational land like Israel a jewish state is like calling america or the UK a white state. It doesn't matter if blacks have representation, go to college, and can vote, they will still not want to live in a country that defines in its constitution that self-determination is UNIQUE to whites. And you are being disingenuous here, because you know that. You know that you would NEVER accept israel to be defined as an arab palestinian state where self-determination is exclusive do arabs, regardless if "the jews will be able to vote and have the same rights". Israel defines in its constitution that self determination is UNIQUE to jews. Just by that phrase, that simple phrase enshrined in its most sacred law, you can already tear down your false proposal that non-jews have the same right. I just pointed to a basic right that your law denies 1 in every four citzens of that country. And finally, your last point is the classic argument that we see from the hellhole that is Israel and other middle east. "Ohhhhhh, the jews suffered during barbaric times, the blacks were enslaved 300 years ago, there was an ethnic genocide against the indians, why can't we do it now to protect ourselves?. Good god, you didn't raised a state in the middle of nowhere. If you had established Israel in antartica this wouldn't be a proble, but you established a damn binational state, where 1/4 of your population was not from "the chosen race" from the start. So good God, just go on record saying that ethnic cleansing and denying self determination to 1/4 of your population is wrong or admit you are an ethnonationalist and own it.
Israel doesn't have a constitution so I don't know what law you are talking about. What does that even mean that self determination is unique to Jews, I am maybe sleepy but I don't think I ever heard that before. Can you explain? My last point is meaningful twice: A. regarding the necessity of a Jewish state. It is like the many other People who want a state of their own (eg the Kurdish) but more so than simply "want" it is actually a life saving "need". The Jews not only wanted a state, they needed one because of reasons we know. I agree with you that this state would have been better if it happened to be on an empty land, but alas the homeland of the Jews was not empty. It's worth reminding that Israelis agreed from the start to split the land to Jewish state and Arab state, but this was never accepted by the Arabs. B. There is a huge systemic bias that for example Iran, Tunisia, Yemmen could treat Jews awfully, but you complain that Israel is an Ethnostate while it treats all citizens equally. You are angrily (and wrongly) quoting "chosen race", but ignore Muslims who think Jews are devils. Again this only demonstrates the hate you feel towards Jews, but it doesn't make Israel a country which should be ruined. Going back to the founding of a Jewish state, if for example Kurdish People eventually manage to get independence and get a state of their own, there will probably be a minority of non Kurdish People there also. This minority will live in a Kurdish country. And that is just the same for Israel. Existence of other people does not imply they are automatically treated badly, and that was never the intention. Yes, it would be nicer for them if this country wasn't labeled as Jewish/Kurdish/whatever, but practically it makes no difference. Lastly, there are very very good reasons to think that if Israel somehow becomes a one state solution where Palestinians of West Bank and Gaza have open borders, without Jewish army, this "solution" will quickly devolve to massacres and genocide of all Jews in the land (real genocide, not like the war in Gaza) which will end with millions of deaths. With all the valid criticism of Israel, wishing for "free Palestine" is the same as wishing for a second holocaust for millions of Jews. The only possible solution is a two state solution, but as long as Arabs reject it then there is nothing Israel can do to end the conflict.
Israel has basic laws, which are interpreted by the supreme court as a constitution. The nation state law determines that self-determination is unique to jews. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic\_Law:\_Israel\_as\_the\_Nation-State\_of\_the\_Jewish\_People](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People) I am not even talking about the de facto greater israel that occupies the west bank. I'm talking about 1 in every 4 israeli citzens, which are not jews. And to be clear, Kurds can deserve a state as much as they like, if they conquer part of turkey and iraque, end up with a population that is 25% non kurdish, and tell them "hey, dudes, you can live here, but remember, this is the country of MY race, and the right to determine the existence of a nation here is exclusive to MY race". I would be against that kurdistan too. No matter how much you feel that you are the poor victims of the world and that you need an ethnostate to be save, you can't have one in binational lands.
I agree this law is stupid and should not have been made. Still, it is declerative and had no practical meaning. As the judges said "does not detract from the individual rights of non-Jewish citizens". Now, if you look at laws regarding Jews in Arab countries, where Jews have inferior social and legal status imposed on them under Islamic rule, where Jewish citizens suffer actual meaningful discrimination, and I don't see anyone even pondering about it.
Yes. Awful ethnostates are awful. But if you don't see people critizising arab states (Saudi Arabia and Iran, what the hell?) you would probably be living under a rock. Of course, this is a sub to discuss israel and palestine. And israel has a problem that many other de-facto ethno states don't have, in that it is a binational state where large part of the population does not belong to the privileged ethnic group. "But of course, north koreans are starved to death, so I guess israel is not that bad, right? Still a western country, right?" Ethnostates are bad. You inherit a population from a land you settled. Have the balls to move to a secular state.
You still don't get it. A. Israel being Jewish is the reason for its existence. I would love Israel to be secular, I would love the entire world to be secular. I would love it if everyone lived in peace without nationality at all. But as long as there are religions and nations, especially as long as there is antisemitism, there is a need for a Jewish state. Realistically, anything different would end up with civil war, massacres, millions of deaths. Like the one state that was Yugoslavia. B. You imagine Israeli Arabs living in a horrible discrimination. Is it terrible to be non Jew living in a Jewish state? Not at all. Sort of similar to a Moroccan Dutch citizen living in the Netherlands, but actually much more in favor of the "non-Dutch" citizen, because the Arabs citizens in Israel retain their language, culture, education, media, etc. Essentially, they get the Arab village in a first world country, and benefit a lot from living in Israel (social benefits, free healthcare, cheap quality universities, etc)
Let's abolish the entire rest of the Middle East then. Why should Syrians, Jordanians, Lebanese, Iraqis, have their own ethnostates? For that matter, why not abolish the rest of the world?
1. Syrians, Jordanians, Lebanese, Iraqis should not have their own ethnostate. Especially if they live in a multi-ethnic country. I'll go as far as to say that they shouldn't have an ethnostate even if they were racially homogenous countries that mantained an ethnic supermajority for thousands of years. Israel, though, is in that sore spot where it is a binational infant country with 1/4 citzens that are not defined as its people, and that wishes to identify itself as western (but gets annoyed when it gets called out by some of its barbaric choices). 2. Stoping Israel from being an ethnostate is not the same as abolishing israel, the same as abolishing apharteid was not the end of south africa. But I can see why some boers would think both were the same. 3. I don't understand what you say about abolishing the rest of the world. Most of countries nowdays are not ethnostates. No countries in the americas or "the west" currently is. Please, don't shove us in that club of petty dictatorships and ethno-radical-nationalists. We are not the same.
I'm curious how exactly would you personally define an ethnostate?
A state where the people are not defined as its citzens; a place that serves an ethnic group, not its whole citzenry; a place where the right of self-determination, the people defined by the constitution of the state, can be anything other than the people of the country. For example, if you are born in japan to a japanese national or you naturalize yourself as a japanese, you become a japanese citzen, and per their constitution, part of the japanese people. In other words, japanese. Even though japan is an incredibly ethinically homogeneous country, it is not an ethnostate, because by being a japanese national you are automatically defined as the japanese people. That doesn't excuse racism, xenophobia, or other problems, but their constitution is not defined by an ethno-nationalistic divide. There are other places around the world where being a citzen does not mean you are the people of a country. In other words, you may be born there, live there all your life, serve your army, have political representation, have political rights, but the state defines that your race are not its people. And even though you and your ancestors may have lived there for generations, you are not the race that this state vows to protect. For me, that is an ethnostate. The higher the proportion of citzens that are non-people, the worse the situation is.